ICR on Sunday Service

Today's episode of Sunday Service by Pray.com features Kenny Luck.

Challenging the idea that Genesis is merely a myth, Dr. Ryan Thomas opens up about his journey from scientific skepticism to biblical conviction. As a paleo-biochemist, he unpacks the evidence that affirms Scripture and reveals how trusting God's Word from the very beginning deepened his faith. This conversation invites believers to rethink the foundation of their worldview, and rediscover the reliability of God’s truth.

Sunday Service is a weekly podcast featuring some of the nation’s most renowned faith leaders. Every Sunday, tune in for inspiration, encouragement, and Bible-based teachings.

Download the Pray.com app today to make prayer a priority in your life. 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Blessed are the undefiled in the way who walk in
the law of the Lord, Psalm one nineteen one. Dear Lord,
how grateful I am for removing the stain of my sin.
I can now walk unblemished before you. Your forgiveness cleanses
my conscience of guilt and condemnation. You renewed my mind

(00:21):
with your word and weakened the lies of the enemy
used to betray me. Your truth flooded my darkness with
light and showed me the error of my ways. Keep
me steady on your course for my life. I am
blessed when I follow you. The light of your word
is my strength and has restored my integrity. Keep me

(00:45):
unspoiled from the condemnation of this world with all its anger, confusion,
and fear. You are my delight.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
Amen.

Speaker 1 (00:57):
Thank you for listening to to Day's daily Prayer. For
more inspiration and an incredible message from our feature pastor,
stay tuned to pray dot COM's Sunday service.

Speaker 3 (01:21):
Hello everyone, and welcome to the Creation Podcast, where we
discuss the science that confirms scripture.

Speaker 4 (01:26):
I'm your host, Renee, and as many of you know,
we live in a.

Speaker 3 (01:29):
World that tells us the Book of Genesis is, if
not entirely, at least partially a myth. Our culture tells
us that there was no supernatural creation because well, it
was nature that got us here. But is that really
our origin story? Are we just simply people that evolved
over millions and millions of years to be who we
are today? And what does the Bible actually say about
who we are and why we're here in the first place. Well,

(01:52):
here with me to talk about this today is ic
our's very own paleo biochemist, doctor Brian Thomas. Doctor Thomas,
thank you so much for being here.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
Well, it's my pleasure, Thanks, Renee.

Speaker 3 (02:01):
So well, I am really excited for our conversation today
because I know this is a topic you are super
passionate about, and you actually recently wrote a book on
it called Living in Light of Genesis, and so you
discuss a lot of these things in your book, and
so I would love to just dive right into the
heart of why you wrote this book and what led

(02:22):
you to ultimately write it and why this topic.

Speaker 4 (02:24):
In the first place.

Speaker 2 (02:26):
Well, thank you for asking.

Speaker 5 (02:27):
Yeah, I wrote the book as as a way to
tell my story to encourage other Christians who may be
like I was confused about which parts of the Bible
to believe and which parts of the Bible do I
have to, like, I don't know, edit with.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
A pencil or something.

Speaker 5 (02:50):
Which parts of the Bible has science I guess disproven
or contradicted, and so therefore we can't believe it. And
so I went on this journey where I asked each
question about each discipline, looking at each verse and going
what about this verse? What about when the scientists say,
you know this, where is that in the Bible? Why

(03:12):
isn't that When the scientists say this fossil is four
hundred and twenty million years old? Why is that not
in the Bible? You know, it is the science that
says that, you know, what's that? Based on what experiment
did they run to determine that age? And so, you know,
those are the kinds of questions I asked question after question,
and I went through this journey of basically every time

(03:36):
I got the answer to one of these questions, the
answer was, oh, the Bible was right about that, And
then I'm going to the next one. The Bible right
about that. The science behind that is not what it's
cracked up to be. That you know that's actually a statement,
a faith statement about the past, and there's no science
that actually supports it. Really, so it became evident to me,

(03:59):
and I wanted to be become evident to more Christians
who feel pressured. I want to take some of that
pressure off of Christians so that they that they recognize
for themselves. Okay, when is this just a faith statement
about the past made by people who were not there
and who actually have a bias against God anyways in
his word because of the sin in our hearts. That's

(04:21):
how we tend to be versus. These are the data,
you know, and these are the results from an observation,
and because oftentimes it's the data the results that support
the scripture more easily. And it's statements about the past
that come from a person's mind and imagination that pose

(04:45):
as science, but they're really not so. But the transformation
that I underwent, I tell my story how I went
through some of these questions. I'm the answer that I found,
and I want more Christians to come out the other
side like I did with a renew and increased confidence,
not just in Genesis, but in God's word, not just

(05:06):
in the Bible. In Genesis, as an academic sense, you know,
but the God of the Bible himself. I want more
Christians to trust him more fully because he's actually you
can take him at his word, and that makes a
big difference in our relationship with him.

Speaker 4 (05:23):
Yeah, that's awesome.

Speaker 3 (05:24):
You know, I think a lot of Christians have a
similar story of you know, they came to Christ, but
maybe you're still wrestling with some of those questions or
just don't realize, you know, some of the lies they're
believing that society is feeding them. And so for maybe
some Christians who say, oh, yeah, Genesis is it's great,
it's in the Bible, it's inspired scripture. But really the

(05:44):
Gospel is what actually matters. That's what we should be
focusing on. What would you say to them for why
Genesis is important? And not only to them, but for
non believers as well.

Speaker 2 (05:56):
You know, I'd have to gauge the conversation.

Speaker 5 (06:01):
First of all, if someone is coming at me with
an adamant tone like the Gospel, you know it is
the only thing that's important. Well, they don't want to
hear from me, they're just they're just you know, blowing
off steam and letting me know their position. So it's
not the time to talk back, but I might, I
might ask him a question. But but if I were
instead in a conversation and someone was asking me, it

(06:24):
seems to me that writing a book about, you know,
living in light of Genesis and how important Genesis is,
isn't as important as writing a book about the Gospel.
Why aren't you doing that?

Speaker 2 (06:33):
You know? And I really want to know why.

Speaker 5 (06:35):
If so, if someone is actually curious, then then I
would say, read the book and you'll find out.

Speaker 2 (06:42):
No, I would say, I agree with you.

Speaker 5 (06:46):
I would say, I agree with you that the Gospel
is the power of God unto salvation Romans one sixteen,
and that that news, that news is just phenomenal. That
I'm a sinner. I earned the death penalty, and Jesus
paid that death penalty on my behalf so that he

(07:08):
can commute my death sentence. And all I have to
do is agree with him about my sin, repent of
that sin basically, and trust in him, and I get
new life through him. And that is awesome news. It's
our biggest need is our sin, and the death that
our sin earns, and our biggest need turns into his

(07:29):
biggest glory because he stepped out of heaven, became a man,
died on the cross, dead three days, rose again, and
he did all that for us because of his great
love for us. So I agree. But why is Genesis
also important? A couple of reasons. One is it provides
the logical foundation for that gospel. So if I say

(07:54):
what is sin? I say, if I say, hey, the
gospel is really great because we have sin and the
sin is gives it, you know, causes death, and so
we we and we're stuck in this world of death
and we have to die because of it. And so
we're we're really stuck. And someone says sin, what is sin?

Speaker 2 (08:15):
Now?

Speaker 5 (08:15):
If I don't have Genesis, I don't have an answer.
I can't explain the underpinnings for the gospel, the basic
concepts that the gospel includes, Where did sin come from
the garden? Well, if the garden wasn't a real place,
then we don't have a real answer. You know, how
did sin start? Adam and Eve in the garden? And

(08:36):
if there was no Adam and Eve, then we don't
really have an answer to how did sin start the
origins of all of all these things? So we have
to get back to Genesis, and there's there's more reasons
now that we can and should. It's more defensible now
than ever, even though those defenses are so often.

Speaker 2 (08:55):
Hidden, hidden from from some.

Speaker 5 (08:57):
So I want to make it more widely known how
defense the bullet is and how great our God is.
So that's one answer. So in summary, In summary, Genesis
provides the foundation, the logical foundation for the Gospel, not
just sin, but also grace. Noah found grace in the

(09:18):
eyes of God, salvation. Those that were on board the
arc were saved faith Genesis fifteen was it six and
Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness.
That's the Gospel, it's all. See, these basic concepts have

(09:39):
their origin in Genesis, and I explained some of that
in the book too. But there are other good reasons,
and I'll just mention another one really quick, and then
we'll don't move on to the next topic. But this
is part of my testimony, this part of my story,
right is I wasn't sure if I could really trust.
I trusted God, you know, to rescue me from hell,

(10:02):
but I live life as though I'm the boss, because
I wasn't sure that he was worth giving my whole
life to him, you know, because I couldn't. I can't
take him at his word, Like would you would you
trust someone if you if you thought, well, that part
of what he says he's lying, and the other parts

(10:23):
he's telling the truth. And I can't really discern which
parts are truth and which parts are lies, because if
Genesis is a myth, then it's a bunch of lies.
And so so what do you say about the character
of the person who's responsible for the text, for the words, Well,
he's I don't know if I want to trust him.
So you see that that's a huge difference. So whence

(10:43):
Genesis becomes history in our minds as it really is,
then oh, the character of the God of the Bible
becomes totally trustworthy. And then we can do what we
were made to do, what he built us to do,
which is to trust him. Trust him with our problems,

(11:04):
trust him with our dreams, trust him with our goals,
trust him when we're up, trust him when we're down.
You know, we're built to trust him and to not
rely on ourselves. Let's call idolatry, you know, putting someone
in God's place, and but once when he has that
place in our hearts. Then he aligns our brokenness, he

(11:27):
puts the pieces back together and makes us whole people again.
And that's what I like. That's what he's done for me,
is doing for me, and that's what I want him
to want to see him do for more and more people.

Speaker 4 (11:40):
That's awesome.

Speaker 3 (11:41):
I love all of what you said there, especially whenever
you said our biggest need is his biggest glory. And
we see that right from the very beginning, you know,
whenever the fall happened, and now it all points, it
all points to Jesus, and so that's incredible. And so
that transitions into the next question of just what is
your biggest prayer for this book as it's now published

(12:01):
and it's going out to people around the world.

Speaker 5 (12:06):
Well, maybe my I haven't been praying about it much,
so that's probably bad. But I pray that for those
who read it, they would they would see in it
more reasons, like we said, more reasons than they ever
knew about uh to take God at his word. And honestly,

(12:27):
if that's my prayer, it's already come true because I've
had several people say it's their favorite book on creation
they've ever read. Isn't that cool, amazing it's and so
you know, some people are like, love it, love it,
love it because I wrote it with like a soccer
mom in mind as the target audience. Like if a

(12:48):
soccer mom who's busy doesn't have time to weighe through science,
you know, but but hash it doesn't have time to
weigh through long sentences or big words or any of that.
But just what's the what's the bottom line. It's say
it in a way that I could get what you're saying.
And so that was my goal and my prayer. And
so it's already ticking that box, which is kind of nice.

Speaker 4 (13:10):
That's awesome.

Speaker 3 (13:11):
And yeah, and I would love to just transition now
into Genesis itself because we've talked about how you know,
it's important and believers and non believers alike Nita as
a foundation for their lives. But does Genesis itself actually
claim to be real history?

Speaker 5 (13:26):
I mean, I think any any seven year old who
reads it without a bias would would read the words
and say, well, God did this, and then he did that,
and then he did this, and then this happened, and
then that happened. So it reads like a like a story,
like a history like a narrative and so, and there's

(13:47):
actually nothing in the text that suggests or indicates that
it's not. In other words, there's nothing in the text
that says, Okay, that stuff really happened. But now we're
about to tell you stuff that's just a moral lesson,
you know, or here's here comes a fable that's going
to really help you in some way. There's none of

(14:07):
that language in there to make it explicit that this
is a fable or that this is not history, nor
is there nor is their structure. The verbs that are
used and everything, they all indicate history. So this happened,
and that happened, and then and you know, we have
words of that indicate timing, chronology, then this, then that,

(14:34):
and we even have words that that indicate timing in
the context of world history. You know, for example, Genesis
seven eleven, in the six hundredth year of Noah's life,
in the second month, and the seventeenth day of the month,
on that very day, all the fountains of the deep
burst forth. Not only is this pretty much historical, it's chronical,

(15:00):
logically precise, you know it. And so yeah, it's definitely
claims to be historical and so, but what's it up against.
It's up against our culture's perspective on history, which is
a which is a secular view that doesn't pay any
attention to God's word. And it says that the universe
is billions of years old, so is the earth, and

(15:22):
that's not in the Bible.

Speaker 2 (15:23):
And so you have to pick one. You have to
pick one.

Speaker 5 (15:26):
And this, the version of history that's in Genesis, is
so unpopular that if I'm going to if even as
a Christian, if I'm going to go, if I'm going
to say I'm going to side with God's word, I'm
going to say, God, I think you got it right.
You can't do that without facing what without facing ridicule
or potentially because you'll you'll be thought of as a

(15:48):
fill in the blank, a yahoo. And so that's the
biggest reason why I resisted believing Genesis for so long.
But when the evidence for its history he mounted up
to such a high degree, I couldn't. I couldn't you know,
responsibly live any longer without So in other words, yeah,

(16:11):
if people think of me as a Yahoo, that's just
gonna have to be the consequence, because I have to
go with the truth and that's kind of how it
happened for me.

Speaker 4 (16:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (16:21):
Yeah, And we see that so often in the Bible too.
I mean, people thought Jesus was crazy, you know, for
the things he did and what he said about himself.
But you know, just following his example of being bold
even in the face of that adversity. And you had
talked about earlier that, you know, you can't just selectively believe, oh, well,
the Gospel's true, but Genesis isn't. You know, that's not

(16:42):
real literal history. But is it a problem if maybe
it's not a myth per se, but God didn't really
mean literal days, or he didn't actually mean a global flood,
it was just a regional flood. Is there a problem
with inserting our own evolutionary or deep time interpretations or
even just realistic to our standard interpretations on the Book

(17:05):
of Genesis.

Speaker 5 (17:07):
Well, I mean that's what most Christians do. That's what
I did for a while as I was transitioning from
believing in secular history, which I was convinced science proved,
you know, until one day I was challenged on that
when someone said, what experiment did scientists run that proved

(17:27):
you know, that proved that you came from an ape,
for example, or name some historical event that we count
as historical, but really it boils down to a bunch
of scientists happened to believe it even though they weren't there.
And I thought, well, there is no experiment. And then
I thought, well science can even it's not even the
right tool to use to sort out what happened when

(17:52):
that's not what science can even do. What was I
Why was I giving so much credence and credit to
science when all the while I had the God of
heaven and earth, the God of my salvation, who loved
me and gave himself for me, This guy, you know,
maker of all, and he's been sitting there patiently waiting

(18:15):
for me to come around and trust him and take
him at his word.

Speaker 2 (18:19):
He was there.

Speaker 5 (18:20):
He does know what happened, and he knows everything, you know.
That's how God tends to be such a know it all.
When you try to mingle two different histories that don't act,
they're just different stories, one of them gets butchered in
order to make way for the other one. And if

(18:40):
we mingle secular versions of history in with the Bible,
guess which gets butchered.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
We have to butcher the Bible.

Speaker 5 (18:48):
Just like you mentioned, day doesn't mean day anymore, so
we can squeeze in the time. And so when we
chop up and redefine terms to make it fit you know,
our man made human history, then what we're telling God
is I don't I don't believe you. Yeah, I think

(19:11):
these other folks who who weren't there, I think they
know better than you, even though you were there.

Speaker 2 (19:16):
That's what we're doing.

Speaker 6 (19:17):
Yeah, yeah, And so that's a So if I do
that at one point in the Bible, like let's say Genesis,
and I could, then then I set up a precedent
that says, well, if I.

Speaker 5 (19:27):
Really need to redefine a term to make it fit
something else that's outside the Bible, then I can go
ahead and do that.

Speaker 2 (19:33):
Well, what if I need to redefine the term resurrection.

Speaker 5 (19:37):
You know, I think resurrection really means you know, swoon,
He swooned.

Speaker 2 (19:41):
And then he's passed out and then it woke up.

Speaker 5 (19:44):
As soon as you have that, then you have no hope,
no gospel, just by redefining one term. So that and
Jesus himself he used not only terms but the tense
of verbs to make points in his arguments with people
who argued with him. So so he took God's word

(20:05):
at face value. He even quoted from Genesis one and
two directly portions of them as though they were history.
And so if i'm if I take the liberty of saying, well,
this doesn't really mean what the text seems to suggest,
because it can't mean that, right, because we know from
secular history blah blah blah blah. So I have to

(20:26):
change the word to mean something else. Well, then I
have to go to Jesus words and say, Jesus, you
also got this wrong, you know, Mark ten to six.
But from the beginning God made them male and female. Well,
I think Jesus got that wrong. He should have said,
but billions of years after the big bang beginning, you
know that's what That's what he really meant to say. Right, So,

(20:47):
as as soon as I make a precedent, as soon
as I start doing that in one place of the Bible,
then I opened the door for me being able to
do that in.

Speaker 2 (20:55):
Another place and in all the places.

Speaker 5 (20:57):
And suddenly now the Bible becomes meaningless and comes whatever
I want it to mean. So, if we're going to
get any meaning, from God's word. We have to let
God's word be God's word. You know, there's a verse
in Isaiah. I read it recently, can't pin the address
to it, but it's in the sixties Isaiah sixty something,

(21:18):
and the Lord says he's looking around the earth for
anyone who trembles at his word. And I'm like, the
more I read his word, more I study him through
his word, and the more confirmation I have through his
world that matches so well what his word says about
the world, the more I want to be one of

(21:41):
those people. I want the Lord to look around the
earth see me and say, ah, you tremble at my
word with that much respect for what I have to say.
And I want to be able to say, yes, Lord,
I do, help me to believe, help my unbelief.

Speaker 3 (21:58):
Yeah. Absolutely reminds to me as you were talking just
about something you said earlier in in Idolatry, and how
in a sense, when we put our own interpretation on
what maybe scripture really means, that that's in essence making
ourselves idols. I feel like, you know, where we're putting
ourselves in the place of God saying no, actually, this
is what scripture means in making idols within ourselves. And

(22:20):
that's that's a dangerous spot to be.

Speaker 2 (22:23):
And so that's that's well said. But man, it's hard
to hear, isn't it.

Speaker 4 (22:27):
I know, yes, but you know.

Speaker 5 (22:29):
And we so many of us think of, well, I
don't have a little you know, a little carved image
of the god fill in the blank name of some
little gcot you know, on my bookshelf, or in a
little shrine in my house, like so many Pagans have
had for millennia. So therefore I'm not an idolater. No,

(22:52):
we all suffer idolatry all the time, which which is
when we put anything, even ourselves in front of the
you know, in the place in our hearts where Jesus belongs,
which is the one who calls the shots, the boss.
So whoever's whoever we're looking whoever or whatever we're looking for, Uh,

(23:15):
we're placing our hope in for rescue, looking for rescue
in if I just could find the right guy get married.

Speaker 2 (23:21):
You got an idol.

Speaker 5 (23:22):
If I could just make my first million dollars idol,
if I could just you know what I mean, you
fill in the blank, If I could get if I
could just get, you know, get to the liquor store
and have the next drink idle idle idol, And these
are all idols from God's perspective. So I just wanted
our listeners to have to have that clarified in case

(23:44):
they were like, thinking about what you said, idolatry what.
So that's that was a good little excursion. Thanks for
letting me interrupt you on that. Yeah, I know, I
appreciate what you said and saying saying that, and it's
convicting to me.

Speaker 4 (23:56):
Yeah, yeah, I know.

Speaker 3 (23:57):
Me as well, because I tend to think of you know,
and realized are making this golden calf. I'm like, of
course that's an idol, but it's it's a lot more
difficult to think about, well, what are the idols that.

Speaker 4 (24:06):
I'm making in my own lives?

Speaker 3 (24:08):
And you know, I think we definitely can make idols
of ourselves so easily, especially when it comes to looking
at Genesis and saying, well, I think it actually means this,
So God was wrong, I'm right, you know, and of
course his ways are higher than ours, so we can't
we can't put our interpretation on it. All right, So
let's transition now into the science that supports genesis, and

(24:30):
so of course, you know the Bible, it explains itself,
as you know, a lot of Christians will say, and
I think, you know, I absolutely agree with that. But
as far as the science goes, what purpose does the
science accomplish? Why study it when talking about Genesis?

Speaker 5 (24:46):
The mean reason why I have covered in this book.
So okay, The reason I'm struggling is because there's two different,
totally separate tracks. One is the question why should we
be why should we use the christ What impact does
the Bibles, you know, the worldview we get from the Bible?

Speaker 2 (25:04):
What impact does that have on science?

Speaker 5 (25:06):
And that so that question is answered like, that's the
only reason we have good science is because of the
worldview we get from the Bible, and that's born out
through the history of science and all the all the
pioneers of all the great disciplines of science, Kepler and Newton.

Speaker 2 (25:21):
Bible believers.

Speaker 5 (25:24):
But for the purposes of this conversation, I think the
reason we look at science and what we try to
tease a part what scientists.

Speaker 2 (25:34):
Say about their results.

Speaker 5 (25:40):
Is when they tie those results into a conclusion, and
that's when they wed the results into their worldview and
it's a secular worldview. So and then we as Christians,
because we don't we don't have the expertise necessarily to
go into that discipline, whatever it is, we get a
little bit bamboozled by that. And it's like, well, the
scientists are saying this, that, and the other about the past,

(26:03):
and so therefore, since they're scientists, they're the experts, I
have to go with what they say. And I think,
I think because what poses as science presents the biggest
threat to belief in the Bible, and specifically in the

(26:23):
first eleven chapters of Genesis, we have to talk about
the science because it's the it's the it's the rocks
that are portrayed as being millions of years old, you know,
that's that are set against.

Speaker 2 (26:35):
Uh, the Bible.

Speaker 5 (26:38):
It's the fossils that are portrayed as being millions of
years old that in our minds oppose the Bible's view.
It's it's the starlight that's that's posed as being you know,
trillions of light years away and therefore trillions of years old.
That's what that's what's in our our minds, and that's

(27:01):
what's keeping so many people, including me, when I when
I was bamboozled by that from from taking God at
his word.

Speaker 2 (27:11):
So that's why that's why we talk about the science.

Speaker 3 (27:14):
Okay, so do you say, are you saying they have
the same evidence. I mean, both creationists and evolutionists have
the same evidence, it's just the worldview they're looking at
it with. Is that what you're referring to as far
as the posing as science.

Speaker 2 (27:27):
Part of things, Yes, but it's more than that.

Speaker 5 (27:31):
I mean, we have the same rocks, we're the same fossils,
we have the same starlight, for sure, And it's how
we it's how we perceive those and interpret those that
builds a that comes out of a worldview that we have.

Speaker 2 (27:44):
So but it's.

Speaker 5 (27:45):
Also this worldview also frames what questions we even want
to ask, or are willing to ask, what scientific inquiries
we're willing to go down. It frames the selection of
which results, because we can become very selective, you know,

(28:08):
in accepting into our minds, in into the diet of
our hearts, if you will, only those things which.

Speaker 2 (28:15):
We want to agree with.

Speaker 5 (28:17):
So so we've seen this in a lot of examples,
like with recently with COVID, the COVID years, weren't those
great fun.

Speaker 2 (28:25):
Wonderful then and we have people along these.

Speaker 5 (28:28):
Separate battle lines and it's like, well, I'm only gonna
accept the YouTube videos that talk about how COVID is
it's all a government scam or you know, some kind
of conspiracy, and then the other the other people are
on the other side going, you know, give me as
many jabs as I can possibly fit, jab jab jab
one hunter, you know, and it's like, I want all

(28:50):
the all the treatments, you know. So we we we
tunnel we tunnel vision, you know, we we become sort
of wrapped up in our own little So that's just
a all recent example of the principle that I'm trying
to get at, and that is, you know, if I
believe in in evolution, that I'm not gonna that's settled

(29:11):
in my mind, and I'm not going to even ask questions,
ask research questions that that that challenge that, and I'm
not going to accept evidences, even if they're real and
come from legitimate observations and science well done. I'm just
not going to accept that because it just doesn't it
doesn't fit what I have already chosen to believe and

(29:33):
what I've chosen to believe is what the majority of
the world believes. And that's all I need to know
because I don't want to be uncool.

Speaker 4 (29:39):
Yeah, so not cool? You're a creationist?

Speaker 3 (29:42):
What? Yes?

Speaker 4 (29:43):
Yeah? Absolutely, yeah.

Speaker 3 (29:45):
I definitely think it takes an element of humility, I
mean another gospel tie, and of course you know where
it takes us humbling ourselves and admitting we're in the
wrong and you know, submitting to God's authority on that.

Speaker 2 (29:56):
Yeah, we come out of the box with a lot
of pride, don't we. Yeah, at least I do. I
don't know about you.

Speaker 4 (30:01):
Oh, I absolutely do. Yeah, I think we all do.

Speaker 3 (30:03):
And you know that's all pointing to God's transformative work
in our hearts, you know, because we don't do that
on our own, of course.

Speaker 5 (30:10):
But and to think that the Lord Jesus, you know,
he's on earth and he's sharing truth, not just like
as some sort of wise sage. He's not just sharing
the truth. He is truth embodied. Everything he does is
true and right, everything he thinks is true. And the

(30:35):
Pharisees are coming at him saying, you know, you just
did that miracle. We saw it, but the devil did
it through you. And here he is the creator of
the universe, being accused of being the devil. You talk
about an opportunity for him to be proud and to say,
you know what, I've had enough of you guys. I

(30:55):
think I'll just blink and you won't exist anymore. You know,
Like if I was God, I'd be like, that's it,
You're out of the pool. Yeah, tweet, blow the whistle.
But he was humble, you know, he was humbled enough
to say he humbled himself to the point of death.
Death on the cross Philippines too, you know. And so
he he said to those guys, patiently explaining, no, I'm

(31:20):
not doing these things of the devil.

Speaker 2 (31:21):
I'm doing these things of the Lord.

Speaker 5 (31:23):
And here's how you can tell, you know, I'm fulfilling
the Old Testament prophecies about.

Speaker 4 (31:28):
Me, just casually.

Speaker 2 (31:31):
Yeah, and he's so patient and humble anyway, I digress.

Speaker 3 (31:34):
Yeah, you know, those are all amazing points. And just
thinking about the evidences, you know, in support of Genesis
specific examples that we see, there are several, I mean
countless examples of evidence in support of what Genesis says
about who we are and how we got here. So
one of those topics is astronomy. So can you give
a few examples of evidences in astronomy that point to

(31:58):
what Genesis says about our ens?

Speaker 2 (32:01):
I do? And so what I did?

Speaker 5 (32:02):
I have just one chapter on the science in the book,
and I tried to I tried to focus on like
the most easily comprehensible you know, of these evidences from
the different categories.

Speaker 2 (32:15):
Yeah, in astronomy is one of them.

Speaker 5 (32:17):
There are so many young looking features that my secular
colleagues just don't even talk about. Again, with the bias
that excludes certain evidences that don't fit the worldview, I
think that's a possible cause for why they don't talk
about it as much as I think they should. I
talk about it. In fact, we have a website ICR

(32:38):
dot org and we have thousands of articles.

Speaker 2 (32:42):
That cover.

Speaker 5 (32:44):
Just you know, like you said, so many evidences, even
from astronomy. And so there's youthful looking features like the
moon Io in our solar system is the most volcanically active.

Speaker 4 (32:57):
What planet is that moon?

Speaker 3 (32:59):
With?

Speaker 2 (32:59):
Oh, you had to ask me, was it Jupiter? You
probably know more than me.

Speaker 4 (33:04):
I don't know Jupiter.

Speaker 3 (33:07):
I don't know for sure, but yes, I'm sorry to
interrupt Yeah.

Speaker 5 (33:10):
It's the most volcanically active in the Solar System. And
the and the question is how can it have all
this you know, energy, and it's still shooting out all
these volcanoes. But Saturn itself puts out more energy than
it should if it's you know, you know, all these
all these Solar System bodies should be old, cold and dead.

(33:32):
If they're billions of years old, all their energy should
have run out, but they they put out heat. There's
evidence of you know, magnetic fields that are still strong.
They shouldn't be, they should be long dead. And and
even in distant space, we have the galaxy wind up problem.
It's a problem for the billions of years concept, because

(33:55):
the galaxies are winding up, the spiral galaxies you know
with those long, beautiful swirly arms. Yeah, those are the
middle winds up faster than the outer arms, and so
they should have wound themselves into a into a disc shape.
We shouldn't have, you know, at least the ones that
are super far away. They should they should have they
shouldn't exist. So we have young looking galaxies in distant space.

Speaker 2 (34:20):
How are how are those there? How can those be there?
If they're billions of years old.

Speaker 5 (34:25):
The maximum life spans I think five hundred five hundred
billion in theory, but the age assignments on them is
trillions something like that, you know. So how can it
be trillions if it's if it's still got those spiral arms.
I mean, that's a question. And so we we think

(34:47):
we have these these answers. We think, we think that
outer space, you know, looks with the with the secular notions.
But the more we ask questions about the more we
look into it with with better and better telescopes like
the James Web, we're set. We're seeing now even more
distant than ever before, galaxies that are that are not

(35:08):
yet wound up. They look young, yeah, in that way,
and so maybe we actually have a younger universe than
everybody believes. Well wait a minute, that would fit the Bible.

Speaker 3 (35:22):
That can't be possible, of course, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:25):
And everyone culls the Bible.

Speaker 5 (35:26):
And I don't want to be you know, I don't
want to be the uncool person on that.

Speaker 4 (35:30):
Yeah, absolutely, I know.

Speaker 3 (35:33):
Yeah, And even just looking at our universe, I mean,
like you were talking about, with the spiral galaxies, these beautiful,
beautiful galaxies that we have, and you know, is the
Big Bang, still the prevailing theory on that that everything
just exploded into existence. How did How do secular scientists
explain how it all came to be?

Speaker 5 (35:52):
Oh, I think they wave magic wands and they tell
you know, I've I've heard them talk about it and
write about it, and it's they it's just it's just
latent faith statements based on no science. And basically it's
the craziest of faith statements because you have to get
everything from nothing. You have to get everything from nothing,
which is a violation of the first law of thermodynamics,

(36:15):
which says that space, energy, and matter don't just pop
into existence, and they don't just as the kids used
to say, they don't just dip out of existence. I
say used to say it because I said it that
way to a group of kids and they were like,
I don't know what you're saying.

Speaker 3 (36:32):
So ten years ago, ten years ago exactly.

Speaker 2 (36:35):
But so matter and energy are not created or destroyed.
And yet we have this theory which poses as science,
but it violates in the worst possible way, not just
having a little bit of matter coming into existence out
of nowhere, but having all of matter and energy coming
into existence out of nowhere.

Speaker 5 (36:57):
It's silly talk. Really, it's not scientific. It all in
that way. So then the so that we asked the question,
did the universe have a beginning? If the universe is
the only explanation for if the universe is all there,
ever was, ever will be, Like Carl Sagan said, Okay,
you're too young, you don't know. Okay, Carl Sagan was

(37:18):
this guy and he was a real popular scientist in
the eighties, and that's what he said. And that's a
faith statement, okay, because if that's true, what you know.

Speaker 2 (37:29):
We asked the question did the universe have a beginning?

Speaker 5 (37:31):
If the answers yes, then the universe had to pop
into existence out of nothing, which violates the first law.
If the answers no, the universe had no beginning, then
what then what does it always existed? Well, I guess
so that means you have an eternal universe. But if
the universe is eternal, it would have burned out all
the sons would have burned out an eternity ago. And

(37:53):
yet we still have sons with the sons are still
organized into galaxies, galaxies into galactic clusters.

Speaker 2 (38:00):
It's all organized, it's all, it all has its energy
to it.

Speaker 5 (38:04):
So so the only way to get the universe that
we have, which couldn't come from nothing and couldn't be
eternal either, is to have come from someone who's outside
the universe, who brought this universe into existence. Well, that
means it's a supernatural origin, and that means miracles are
how really things really happened. And guess what Genesis one

(38:25):
one says about that in the beginning, God nothing made everything.

Speaker 2 (38:30):
No, I didn't say that at the beginning, God.

Speaker 5 (38:32):
Who's outside of everything, he made everything. That's like one
of the most scientifically defensible statements just in terms of
the first and second laws, because these are the two laws,
most fundamental, most best proven laws in all of science.
These two laws don't get me started. I thought we
were talking about astronomy.

Speaker 3 (38:50):
Yes, well, and I think just something that and correct
me if I'm wrong on this. But what you're saying
is that everybody has faith in something, whether they admit
it or not. You can either believe in you know,
nothingness creating somethingness, or an infinitely personal God who created
everything out of his perfect, perfect design and order.

Speaker 4 (39:12):
And I think that's such a such a great point.

Speaker 3 (39:15):
So once all of this something thiss happened. Of course,
now we have people, and now we have animals and
plants and all these things in biology. So could you
talk on some of the evidences that we see in
biology related to creation.

Speaker 5 (39:29):
One of the one of the coolest new evidences that
I've been learning about is four bar mechanisms. And so
these are these are what we call all are nothing structures.
We see them in pump jacks where you see them
pumping oil out of the ground. And it's four bars
and these four bars are all linked at each end

(39:50):
with a with a with a joint. The four bars
transfer leverage from from from some sort of you know,
uh energy, So it transfers leverage to in order to
do a specific type of work and too and to
and to do and to optimize the force generated. What
does this have to do with biology, Well, we see

(40:11):
it in pump jacks, but we also see it in well,
the steering mechanisms in our car. So when you turn
the steering wheel in your car, that attaches to four bars,
and those four bars attached to the wheels, so it
transfers the leverage of your hand motion into you know,
into the turning the actual wheel so four bar mechanisms

(40:34):
are all or nothing, because if you take one of
those four bars out of place, what do you have.

Speaker 2 (40:41):
A mess? Yeah, it doesn't.

Speaker 5 (40:42):
It no longer does its job. But so in order
to get these four bars in place with the right size, shape,
and strength, someone had to have thought it out ahead
and put them together for that purpose. We know that intuitively.
As soon as we see a pump jack or during wheel,
we're like, okay, that's for this. It transfers the the

(41:05):
force so that it does work in a specific way
to get this particular purpose accomplished. We just don't even
think about that. It's just like someone did it. But
we have the same thing in our knees. Inside of
our knees, we have the ACL the MCL.

Speaker 2 (41:23):
These are.

Speaker 5 (41:26):
Interior Cruishit ligaments. There's two Cruishit ligaments. It crush it
just means cross form like cruise means cross because these
ligaments are in an X pattern, so they cross one
another and they're in the deepen the center of our knees.
So the bone forms one bar that is your femur,
and then you have the two ligaments. There's three bars,

(41:47):
and then your top of your tibia which is another bone,
forms the fourth bar. So we have four bar mechanism
in our knees and that's how we walk and run.
So with as much confidence as we would look at
a four bar mechanism beside the road or in our
cars and say someone did that on purpose, we can

(42:09):
at least as equally say someone made knees on purpose,
because how is nature going to do this? You have
to think ahead, you have to know exactly where you're
going to arrange these put him in the right place.
Positions have the right leverage to transfer force from your
upper leg to your feet, and so someone thought of
all that. So that's one of the of the I

(42:31):
don't know thousands of design features that we can talk
about in biology that point to a creator. And he
left his signature clear, so clear in what he's made
that Romans one twenty says that all men are without
excuse because we all see his divine attributes through that
which he has made.

Speaker 2 (42:52):
And that's biology. That's why I love biology.

Speaker 3 (42:54):
Yeah, yeah, His fingerprints truly are on everything everything we see.
I love how you sided Roman in that as well,
and even in the things that aren't living. So Versus
talks about the stones crying out, and you know, just
even what we see in the rocks of you know
how how even those just point to such complexity. And
so transitioning into now geology, what evidences do you see

(43:18):
in geology that point to the genesis creation?

Speaker 5 (43:22):
Well, they point to the flood, which is also in
that Genesis one through eleven block of chapters that we
in our culture we like to disdain so much. But
don't be so quick to disdain genesis creation, because how
else do you get knees and four bar mechanisms. You
know that, by the way, that's in bird wings. Birds
wouldn't fly without it, and it's in fish mouths they

(43:46):
couldn't eat without for their four bar mechanisms.

Speaker 2 (43:48):
So it's all over creation.

Speaker 5 (43:50):
But these rocks, man, these So I just got back
from Grand Canyon a few weeks ago leading a tour group.
I was a tour guide for a group of students,
and it's great fun because we can put our hands
on the rocks. I could say, Okay, show me the
evidence between this layer below and this layer above.

Speaker 2 (44:06):
Show me the evidence that this.

Speaker 5 (44:07):
Layer below actually was exposed to Earth's surface for millions
of years before the layer above.

Speaker 2 (44:15):
Was deposited on top of it. What would have happened to.

Speaker 5 (44:18):
The upper surface of this layer if it was really
exposed for millions of years, erosion would have happened. You
should see ruts, erosion ruts. Show me some and you
can look out for hundreds of miles and see flat
topped layers. So you can't have these exposures for eons.

(44:39):
It looks instead like each layer, each flat contact between
these layers, Each layer was deposited soon after the other
one was laid down, and quickly the next one quickly
the one after that, and to the notion of each well,
maybe we can't fit the time in between the layers.
Maybe there's a way to fit the time inside the

(45:01):
rock layer. Maybe we can have a slow accumulation rate,
you know, where sand slowly settled in the bottom of
an ancient sea, you know, or something like that.

Speaker 2 (45:11):
If that were the.

Speaker 5 (45:11):
Case, there would be no fossils because fossil have to
be buried rapidly or they would just rot. The carcasses
would rot, would never become fossils. So they have to
be fast flowing, which is short time, and you have
to have very very little time between the layers. So
you know it in a similar manner to what I

(45:32):
used to do with Genesis, like where can I fit
the time? And you know that, can I fit it
in between verse one and two? Or can I fit
it in these days? Or where can I fit all
this time? Now the tables have turned for me, and
I'm like, well, this is recent creation, recent flood about
forty four hundred years ago according to the Bible. And

(45:52):
now I'm looking at the rock layers, going well, wait,
where's the evidence of this time? And I can't find
any place to squeeze in the time. So that's that's
one way that we look at geology. Just everyone can
get that, you know, it's like common sense, yeah geology,
and most geologists would scoff at that, but it's defensible.

Speaker 2 (46:12):
So sorry, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (46:13):
Well it's so interesting because I don't know if they
still have this, but one point Grand Canyon they had
like a trail of time where it was all these
like you know, rock layers they had and some sort
of example the model of the Grand Canyon I guess
you will and they said, oh, yeah, like each layers
millions of years, but they're completely flat like pancakes.

Speaker 4 (46:30):
And so it's just so interesting to see how same.

Speaker 3 (46:33):
Evidence but completely different theories of how they got there. Yes,
and so our final category that I would love to
talk about is actually something that you've done a lot
of work in.

Speaker 4 (46:44):
And that is fossil proteins. So could you talk a
little bit more.

Speaker 3 (46:47):
About the evidence that we see in fossils that point
to a recent and special creation.

Speaker 5 (46:53):
It's yeah, again, it points to a recent flood because
some of the fossils that we have in these flood layers,
these flood rocks around the world have proteins still in them. Now,
proteins don't last that long, I mean, and we know
that because of not just intuition, but actual decay rates
studies where we put the protein in an idealized environment

(47:17):
in a lab and then we accelerate the rate at
which it decays just basically by adding heat. So when
you heat it up, it decays a lot faster than
it would normally decay. And then you can measure that
decay rate and then extrapolate it to you know, it
varies on temperature, but you can extrapolate it into the
past and you get a maximum lifespan for these proteins

(47:41):
that no more than a million years based on these studies,
based on lab bench repeatable studies.

Speaker 4 (47:47):
So there's a kink in some of the evolutionary time.

Speaker 5 (47:50):
Yeah, it really does throw a wrench into evolutionary time
for these fossils.

Speaker 2 (47:53):
And I grew up.

Speaker 5 (47:54):
You know, one hundred percent fossils are millions of years old.
Everyone knows that, hundreds of millions for some of them.
But that's just these are just numbers that have been
like attached to the fossils and rocks. They're like labels
that humans have invented and given to the fossils and rocks.
But when we see blood vessels stilled inside bones they're

(48:14):
coming out of these fossils, we have to think, wait
a minute, maybe there's something wrong with the whole paradigm.
And it turns out that that it fits really well
with the genesis history of the flood. So if these
are flood fossils, they formed in the flood. That's only
thousands of years ago. So it's within the time limit

(48:36):
that these proteins can last according to the decay rate studies.
But the tens of millions plus age assignments are far
their order of magnitude beyond the maximum life span for
these proteins. So that's that's something I never learned in school.
I went to public schools in this country. What's wrong

(48:59):
with these meats?

Speaker 4 (49:00):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (49:00):
I mean you see fossils and textbooks and they're like
this is a million bazillion year old whatever, and you
just sort like, Okay, the scientists are saying that it's
got to be that old.

Speaker 4 (49:10):
So with that, how do secular.

Speaker 3 (49:11):
Scientists justify the the finding of the fossil proteins? Like,
how do they how do they reconcile that with their
evolutionary beliefs?

Speaker 2 (49:19):
Oh, several different ways. One is to ignore it.

Speaker 5 (49:23):
Another is to to invent hypotheses it's really not original tissue.
Maybe it's something that bacteria have made that's been refuted
by now. And then another another is to is to
come up with preservation modes, preservation modes like special you know,

(49:45):
chemistry that may have gone on. And so that's what
they talk about most now is these preservation chemical preservation modes,
which is which is cute and all, except no one
has tested any of them. Wow, So until you test it, don't.

Speaker 2 (50:05):
Go around saying, oh, yeah, we have an.

Speaker 5 (50:07):
It'd be like I'm holding this coffee and it's still steaming.
And I say, you know, I've had this coffee sitting
on this table, this coffee cup for about two weeks.
I mean, would you believe me it was still steaming
after two weeks. No, because the second law of thermodynamics goes,

(50:31):
energy goes from high concentration to low concentration. Biomolecules go
from high degree of organization to low degree of organization,
so they're falling apart. So in the same way, it'd
be like, well, this is a special coffee mug, you know,
it's like special circumstance that we can pretend like it's
actually been steaming for two weeks and it's just wishful thinking.

Speaker 2 (50:54):
So those are some ways that they deal with it.

Speaker 4 (50:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (50:57):
Wow, And yeah, it's so pervasive in our culture today,
of course, as we've talked about. And would you say
that overall, is culture better or worse without Genesis?

Speaker 2 (51:07):
Oh? Yeah, So speaking of culture, so.

Speaker 5 (51:14):
There's a there's a there's a there may be a
spiritual reason to cling to culture's ideas of evolution in
millions of years and scoffing in Genesis, we've talked about
a cultural reason in terms of I don't want to
be the uncool person. And that's powerful, powerful motivator more

(51:35):
than truth, Like if even if it's true, I'm not
going to go with it if everyone else like that's
that's how human nature tends to work. We just go
with the flow with the crowd because we don't want
to stand out. But that's but there's another motivator, and
it's a spiritual one. Now, if we can envision a

(51:57):
universe that's that's eons old, then and guess what we
could do. We can push the idea of creation and
a creator way back into time and so we feel
like he's just out of the picture, and that helps
me feel like I'm no longer accountable for doing wrong.
So it's kind of like deep time is in bed

(52:19):
with our sinful nature's desire to pretend like we don't
have a sinful nature, right because because the heart, Jeremiah says,
is deceitful and wicked, who can know it?

Speaker 2 (52:32):
Because we deceive ourselves.

Speaker 5 (52:34):
And psychologists will tell you deception is not just because
the deceiver out there, it's because the deceiver is saying
something that you kind of like, and we are allowing
ourselves to be deceased. That's why Paul says, do not
be deceived, don't fall for these things, these untruths. But

(52:55):
pushing God out of our hearts. Pushing God out of
our hearts, that's what we've done since the Fall. That's
what we've done since canaan Abel, pushing God away.

Speaker 2 (53:10):
And so I'm saying there's a judgment day.

Speaker 5 (53:17):
The Bible says there's a judgment day. And if we
pretend like we don't have sin, like we don't have
a sin nature, we're deceiving ourselves. And if we pretend
like the world can make itself, therefore there's no creator,
we're deceiving ourselves. And if we pretend like, well, maybe
God did it, but he did it billions of years ago,

(53:38):
and he's really out of the picture, we're deceiving ourselves.
And we're trying to push God so far away that
we feel more comfortable doing what we want to do.
We don't want him to intrude with our lives. You see,
there's a spiritual connection. So I bring that out a
little bit in my book. And so that's one of
the reasons why I think we have a culture that
is that's against Genesis and against the God of Genesis

(54:00):
to a large degree today.

Speaker 2 (54:01):
No, I'm not saying everybody, but but to a large degree.

Speaker 5 (54:04):
And I think I think that's one reason is because
of our own our own dedication to our own idols.
As we talked about, ye, and I want to be
the boss and I don't want God. But I'm telling
you and you would agree because I know you. When
you when we say okay, Lord, you take over, that's

(54:25):
when he puts the pieces back together.

Speaker 2 (54:28):
That's when new life.

Speaker 5 (54:29):
We go from death to life just like that, and
he starts, he starts this process of knowing us and
us knowing him that lasts forever, so that when we die,
we get to be with him.

Speaker 2 (54:43):
And because he's.

Speaker 5 (54:43):
Already paid our death penalty, and so we get to
know him now and we get to know him even
more later and and and and that's worth, that's worth
giving up this whole world.

Speaker 2 (54:58):
For him. And know this has nothing to do.

Speaker 4 (55:00):
With your question, but no, this is all good stuff.

Speaker 3 (55:03):
And I was just thinking about how it's almost as
if he has to break us first. He has completely
just demolish us, to get us outside of ourselves in
order to, like you said, put us back together again.
We're crucified with Christ, but then we're raised to e
turn alive with him. So it's infinitely more rewarding that way.
And you know, you talked about how now we've seen

(55:24):
culture largely without genesis, but has there ever been a
point or do you think we're even reaching that point
of culture completely without genesis?

Speaker 5 (55:32):
You know, I did some research looking at Nazi Germany
rejecting genesis and it was a godless way to run
a government. Did some research into communism, and and of
course today we still.

Speaker 2 (55:50):
Have China as a communist nation, and they.

Speaker 5 (55:54):
Have of course the worst, the worst track record on ecology,
not taking care of the environment, and the worst trackered
record or one of the worst anyways on human life.
Such a low value of human life. But I mean,
doesn't that make sense if if you're going to say

(56:16):
that Genesis is a joke, that humans evolve from apes,
then then you know what's the problem with a bunch
of If we have too many people, it's like having
too many cats.

Speaker 2 (56:29):
Just get rid of a bunch of them.

Speaker 4 (56:31):
They're in the way the lis their.

Speaker 5 (56:33):
Value, because our value comes from being made in the
image of God. And if we reject that, then we
don't have a view that that that aligns with the
reality of our made in His image, of our little
images that we are as we walk around on this clod. Yeah,
and so it's it's so we have.

Speaker 2 (56:52):
You know, some of these.

Speaker 5 (56:54):
These holocausts and wars and and everything, and and a
lot of them are tied to to a rejection of
Genesis in different cultures. But then you see some cultures flourish,
and I defy my listeners or my readers to name
and describe a culture, modern or ancient that has flourished

(57:15):
where people have, you know, built strong economies, built strong families,
enjoyed times of lasting peace, built strong, strong government where
there's justice, actually just justice. Name a time of Name

(57:36):
a culture that's flourished in those areas and has had
a low view of Genesis, just completely disdains Genesis. I
don't I couldn't find any you know, So I think
there's a link. I think there's a connection. And so
I guess the best possible outcome from my book is
that people would read it and go, oh, we need
to get back to Genesis. Then they'd read the Bible,
and then they believe in Jesus, who the Bible is

(57:59):
all about, and then we we'd have a you know,
more and more people who who make up culture, because
culture is made of people who actually get back to
the beginnings, back back to the truth, and back to
running government in a way that's for the people, not
for the people, and not for the leaders only.

Speaker 4 (58:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (58:21):
Yeah, it's almost as if, you know, Scripture contains all
things for life and godliness. You know, who would have
thought that?

Speaker 2 (58:26):
Really?

Speaker 3 (58:28):
I know, you know it should be if it is so?
With that, what does the rest of Scripture say about Genesis?
I know we've touched on this just a bit, but
what did what did Jesus Let's start with Jesus. What
did Jesus think of Genesis?

Speaker 2 (58:42):
Uh? Well, I'll just.

Speaker 5 (58:45):
I did a survey in the book the names Noah,
these are some of the ideas that I had. Where
else does the Bible you you know, reference Noah or Adam?
You know, these these names that come from the first
eleven chapters of Genesis that we all, so many of
us like to shove to just don't even read those

(59:07):
those are myths. We mythologize them. Well, if they're myths,
and why did the prophets refer to them as actual people, Isaiah, Sorrymiah.
If they're myths, why did Jesus refer to them as
actual people as it was in the days of Noah?
So shall it be in the coming of the Son

(59:28):
of Man? I think it's Matthew twenty four. He's referring
to these as real people. Luke three. You know Adam,
the son of God named naming Adam as the as
the you know, as the Patriot or the father of
the Lord Jesus himself through Mary So. And then if

(59:51):
if these are myths, then why does Paul say through
the first atom Sin entered the world, but through the
last atom we have, you know, life to the last atom.
So if there was no first atom, then what are
we gonna do? Erase this the last atom, which is
of course the Lord Jesus. So if Jesus is real,
then according to Paul, so is Adam because atom is

(01:00:13):
the first atom.

Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
Jesus is the last atom.

Speaker 5 (01:00:17):
And so so you know, there's there's a I used
to I was backpacking some years ago and I got
into a conversation with a stranger on the trail, and
you know, what do you do for a living? This
is the question that comes up while I work at
the Institute for Creation Research. Really, what's that, do you guys?
Breed sheep, No, that's not not that kind of creation.

(01:00:38):
Let me introduce you. So, yeah, we believe genesis and
science supports it. Oh really, I had no idea that
any science supported Genesis. And he's like, well doesn't doesn't
Genesis not not even matter because the Gospel is the
real important thing. This is what he's telling me. And
I said, well, can you think of any doctrine that
doesn't have its origins in Genesis? Any doctrine?

Speaker 2 (01:01:01):
Pick one?

Speaker 5 (01:01:01):
And he goes, what's a doctrine? Look, do you mean
like baptism? No, that's an ordinance. So the doctor, the
doctrine of God, who is God? The doctor of man,
who is man? Doctrine of you name it? And yeah,
they all, how about this, the doctrine of clothing. We
wear clothes, animals don't. That's because we have sin, and

(01:01:24):
the Bible gives us the origin for that. And everything.
We have languages, No animal has one. We have lots
of them. Tower of Bible, Genesis eleven. The Bible gives
the origin of that. Yeah, And so I'm talking with
this guy, and he and he's and he turns and
he stops, turns around and says, I'm a New Testament Christian.

Speaker 2 (01:01:45):
That's what he said to me. I'm a New Testament Christian.

Speaker 5 (01:01:47):
In other words, I'm not gonna mess with trying to
work through the whithertos and why wars of Genesis. I'm
just gonna believe in super simple faith of just Jesus
and that's it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:57):
And and so I.

Speaker 5 (01:02:00):
You know, at that point, you just let a person,
you know, go their own way. But I would if
he was asking me, you know, I would say, if
you're just going to be a New Testament Christian, first.

Speaker 2 (01:02:12):
Of all, what does that mean to you? But if
you're going to be a devoted.

Speaker 5 (01:02:18):
New Testament Christian, then you're going to devote yourself to
the New Testament. And that means you're going to devote
yourself to what the prophets and apostles said. Also, because
that's what the New Testament authors said. They did, Yeah,
and that's what they said. Acts twenty four fourteen is
a good verse. Everyone looking up where Paul is arguing

(01:02:38):
and he's saying in front of I think it's Agrippa
and the Jews are out to get him, you know.
And then he's saying, I am being persecuted by these
Jews because I believe everything that's written in the prophets,
the prophets, and so he's talking.

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
About the whole Bible, the Old Testament included.

Speaker 5 (01:03:02):
And so when Jesus came on the scene, he was
the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies, the first one being
the being pretty vague, but being Genesis chapter three. Genesis
three is the curse. And God said, curses the ground
for your sake. And he said to the he said

(01:03:25):
to the serpent, you know on your belly you shall
go all the days of your life. You know this abasement.
And then then comes this prophecy. The seed of the
Woman is going to crush your head, buck wheat, he said,
that's my translation. Listen here, buck wheat. The sea of the
woman it's going to crush. So Eve is going to

(01:03:46):
have She's the woman, the only woman that existed, is
going to have a seed or an offspring, and that
child is going to is going to be your downfall.
And we've been waiting ever since for Jesus to come
and crush the world and the world system, and he's
going to do it and so, and the end cap

(01:04:10):
of the Bible. So if the book ends of the
Bible Genesis, the other the other book and would be Revelation.
The end cap tells us how he's going to do
that and some of the special events that are going
to happen when he actually comes to bring justice and
to crush the head of the serpent, which is not
a snake in my opinion, and so and so if

(01:04:33):
we're going to say, if we're going to say I
believe the Bible, then might as well believe all of
it because it all pins itself together. It's all the
narratives are interwoven from the Old into the New Testament.
The themes that are draw that are begun in the
Old Testament are picked up and carried later on in

(01:04:55):
the Old Testament and then into the New Testament.

Speaker 2 (01:04:58):
All these themes. It's just beautiful, full to.

Speaker 5 (01:05:00):
Study and wonderful to know and have confidence that we
can believe all of it.

Speaker 4 (01:05:04):
Yeah. Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (01:05:06):
And you know, if Jesus had a high view of Genesis,
if the apostles thought Genesis was real literal history, how
would that transform our lives? If we had Genesis as
the foundation. If we took Genesis at.

Speaker 5 (01:05:19):
Its word, well, wouldn't we get a high view of
man from it? And we'd say, Oh, we're made in
God's image according to this text, maybe I should love
my neighbor, respect my neighbor. Maybe I should think fewer
thoughts of murder, you know, in traffic or something. What
else would happen? I mean, you just name it the

(01:05:41):
justice system. Oh that God made everything, He made me. Well,
that means I'm going to be accountable to him. So
as a judge, I better make right decisions and not
legislate from my judicial bench because that's the other department's job.
Because I'm going to have to be accountable. And I'm
going to give an a count to God for what
I did and what I said.

Speaker 2 (01:06:02):
In this earth.

Speaker 5 (01:06:04):
I mean, that makes all the difference, right, And then
I read in Genesis, Oh what about grace?

Speaker 2 (01:06:10):
Noah found grace in the eyes of God. What does
that mean?

Speaker 5 (01:06:14):
Undeserved favor? You know, undeserved favor? Do I need that too?

Speaker 2 (01:06:19):
Yeah? Every day, every moment.

Speaker 5 (01:06:22):
And what would it look like in our lives if
we relied on him and trusted in him. That undeserved favor, that.

Speaker 2 (01:06:29):
Grace to.

Speaker 5 (01:06:32):
Do what to do, whatever he made us to do,
not to go run around and do what I want
to do and wreck my life and wreck everyone else's
lives that I come in contact with.

Speaker 2 (01:06:44):
That's what the flesh wants to do.

Speaker 5 (01:06:46):
But when I get back to Genesis, I realize, Okay,
I'm accountable to a god, and he's a god of grace.

Speaker 2 (01:06:52):
He's a god who's pursuing me.

Speaker 5 (01:06:53):
He's a god of love and mercy, and just as
he was gracious with Noah, maybe I can find grace
from this divine judge so he won't have to come
down on me on judgment Day. He'll actually lift me
up and say, because you trusted me, I took care
of your sins, I'm going to take care of everything.
And He is the great taker care of all the things,

(01:07:16):
and we learn about that through Genesis. So I mean,
what would if you're asking me what would change if
we went back to Genesis? My question is what wouldn't
Every aspect of our lives would change, And certainly those
aspects of my life have changed.

Speaker 2 (01:07:30):
You know, I used to believe.

Speaker 5 (01:07:33):
I used to be a My friends used to call
me a recovering eco wacko. So I know we don't
call people name, but I mean I was a tree
hugging type of person and so and a vegetarian. You know,
I don't harm animals because I thought animals are more
important than people. People are the problems. So if we

(01:07:53):
get rid of the people, that would be great. That's
what I used to believe. I don't believe that anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:07:58):
Why don't I because of Genesis. I used to believe
marriage was silly.

Speaker 5 (01:08:06):
Marriage was a joke because so many of them fail,
So why even start an enterprise that would fail? Where's
the first marriage come from? Genesis?

Speaker 2 (01:08:16):
And so as soon as I got back to Genesis
and I realized, oh, God invented marriage. Interesting, I didn't
know that. So the reason that marriages fail isn't because
it's inherently problematic, is because we do such a bad
job with what God has done with this institution that
God has begun. So guess what happened Immediately after God

(01:08:38):
changed my mind on marriage. I found a lady and
we've been married for but almost thirty years now. You know,
so every aspect of life changes, personal, societal, spiritual, you
name it. Wow, Yeah, with our foundation in Genesis.

Speaker 3 (01:08:56):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I love that example to U's
early or of Noah and just how he's a type
of Christ in that there's judgment and we all deserve it,
and yet.

Speaker 4 (01:09:05):
There's grace for all who.

Speaker 2 (01:09:07):
Just put their trust in Jesus anyone.

Speaker 5 (01:09:09):
Yeah, and yeah, he's just waiting for us to say, Yeah,
you're right, God, I'm a sinner. I need your help,
I need outside help.

Speaker 3 (01:09:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:09:20):
Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (01:09:20):
So, just as we wrap up this conversation today, do
you have any closing thoughts anything that we haven't talked
about that you'd really like listeners to know.

Speaker 2 (01:09:30):
If you purchase my book, she should. What's the cost now.

Speaker 5 (01:09:38):
For nineteen ninety nine the bottom of your screen, two
for the price of one.

Speaker 2 (01:09:43):
No, it does come with free cello fane though, if
you order it. That's nice.

Speaker 3 (01:09:47):
Plus.

Speaker 2 (01:09:47):
Yeah, So let's let's wrap up.

Speaker 5 (01:09:49):
With a with a a summary of what's what's in
my heart on this is now you've heard the transformation
that the Lord has made, and it wasn't just an
academic realization that Okay, now Genesis is true. We realize
this in an academic sense, and now I can replace.

Speaker 2 (01:10:09):
The old thoughts with the new ones. Well that's part
of it.

Speaker 5 (01:10:12):
It's part the academic But when I found that the
words could be trusted, that transformed my whole view of God.
You know, I used to believe that God was like
a little bit stronger than the devil than if they
had to duke it out. You know, God would take
some blows, but give a little more than he took.

Speaker 3 (01:10:28):
What a dinky.

Speaker 4 (01:10:29):
God in a comic book.

Speaker 5 (01:10:31):
Yes, yeah, it's so silly. And now I realize this
is the God of the universe. Who, you know, if
he got in a fight with the devil, who could
just you know, not even have to blink and say,
I don't think you should exist anymore? And he would
not exist at that point. You know, this is the
God who spoke the universe into existence.

Speaker 2 (01:10:51):
And when.

Speaker 5 (01:10:53):
When the when the Gospel entered my heart, the he
in a similar way that he brought light out of
darkness in the beginning, he brought life out of.

Speaker 2 (01:11:09):
Death in me.

Speaker 5 (01:11:11):
And so now that I know that, now that I
know I knew him in that way as my savior,
but now that I can trust him, you know, now
that I can trust the words that he wrote, even
the words in genesis that sound weird to secular ears
like mine were and still are, probably to some degree.

(01:11:31):
But now I can say, oh, you love me enough,
not just to die for me and to pay my
price and rescue me from my sins, but also to
tell me the truth about where I came from. You're
pretty awesome, And my view of God has gone through
the roof. He's the god of the universe beyond the universe,
and he loves little old nobody me and has loved

(01:11:54):
me so much that he preserved this word so we
would have a record of how it all really went down.
He's preserved it through all the millennia, waiting for me
to be born, waiting for me to hear this, waiting
for me to believe and trust not just his words
and academic sense, but to trust him personally. Okay, I'm

(01:12:17):
a sinner. I'm still a sinner, even though I know you, Lord,
and I need to trust you more even now, even today.

Speaker 2 (01:12:23):
He's become my.

Speaker 5 (01:12:24):
Savior with the get out of Hell for free ticket,
but he's also become my savior from my own problems
and issues and struggles on a day by day, and
he's the one who rescues me all the time, and
the confidence that I had now have in him came
from being able to trust him and take him at

(01:12:47):
his word even in Genesis.

Speaker 3 (01:12:50):
Yeah, gosh, what a great note to end on. I mean,
what an incredible God we serve. And I have just
been so encouraged by our conversation today. So thank you
so much for coming on the podcast, and I know
our listeners and viewers have been encouraged as well, So
thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:13:03):
So much for being here, Thanks for having me. I
appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (01:13:06):
Absolutely, And to our listeners and viewers, thank you so
much for tuning in today. We hope you enjoyed this podcast.
If you would like to purchase a copy of doctor
Bryan's book, Living in Life of Genesis, which I highly
highly recommend you do, you can find it available now
on ICR dot org slash store. And we also recommend
that you like and subscribe and share this podcast.

Speaker 4 (01:13:28):
It really helps us.

Speaker 3 (01:13:29):
To get the creation message out there to as many
people as possible. And finally, if you would like to
receive the Creation Podcast a week early or our monthly
podcast Creation dot Live two weeks early, you can find
the link in the description to become a member on
YouTube or Patreon. Thank you so much for listening and
we will see you next time.

Speaker 6 (01:13:55):
You like God human, God was severed and through it all,
God's promise remain true.

Speaker 2 (01:14:05):
Follow me April and I would make a.

Speaker 3 (01:14:09):
Great This is the Chosen People. Listen to the Chosen
People at the Chosen.

Speaker 6 (01:14:19):
People dot com.

Speaker 3 (01:14:21):
That's the Chosen People dot com.