February 21, 2023 • 54 mins
Zebb Hall from The Alphabet Boys podcast details the infiltration efforts of FBI informant to quell the voices of black activist in the wake of the 2020 George Floyd uprisings
About Oya:
Oya L Sherrills is a survivor, a lived experience leader in her field, an advocate, and an organizer. Author of "Musings of a Rascal", she works to create a culture where healing practices are centered and valued. Oya likes to pave paths that connect past and future ancestors in efforts to prioritize peace and community-driven solutions that break cycles of violence and address trauma. She's creative, she's a mama, and she's for the trees.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Content warning. This episode will discuss a lot of heavy
topics such as state violence. Please be kind to yourself,
prepare yourself with before and or after care, and remember
if you are a loved one is going through it,
you can dial the Black Line at one eight hundred
(00:23):
six O four five eight four one. The Black Line
provides a space for peer support, counseling, reporting of mistreatment,
witnessing and affirming the lived experience for folks who are
most impacted by systematic oppression. With an LGBTQ plus blackfem lens,
(00:45):
It's a crisis listening line and once again you can
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five eight four one. Thank you. Join us to explore
(01:09):
the stories, policies, practices and idea so the new Survivors move.
This is Saviva's Hills with your host, your host. Oh yah,
oh yah, Hell Charil. Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, good people. This
is your host. Oh yeah, El Charelle's. You're listening to
(01:31):
the Survivor's Hill podcast. And today we have a very
special guest who has, you know, a very troubling story
to share with us. However, it is a story that's
been repeated throughout history, and we're always making history. History
(01:53):
is always happening, so we want to make sure to
add this to the official But without further ado, I
am here with activist zeb Hall. Hi there, Hello, how's everyone?
Zeb Can you tell me your full name? Yes, my
(02:14):
name is Zebedias doorn Hall. That's a really strong name, Zebediah.
Can you share like what it means if you know? Well,
my mother named me after a friend of hers. I
guess he passed away before I was born. And you know,
I guess it means for some translations, it's like gift
from God. But I'm just zeb for the most part. Okay. Well, Zeb,
(02:39):
I know that there has been some incidents that have
gone down in Denver, Colorado, and it's something that you
have shared with the new podcast Alphabet Boys. Yes, that's correct.
It's a pretty interesting podcast. It's a lot more to come.
We've had three episodes so far. It goes over how
(03:00):
the FBI used a criminal informant to infiltrate the bl
and protest and ultimately cause the demise. Wow, and so
is it that you were an activist on the ground
in Denver yourself as well? Yes, that's correct. I started
out in the early days, and I stayed until for
(03:21):
the most part, right before things really completely fill apart.
It was a pretty interesting summer, as we all know,
but it was a lot of things that a lot
of people expected, but not the way it came out.
So can you tell us a little bit about your background,
like where you're from and what inspired you to get
(03:43):
involved with the activism after George Floyd H Yeah, I
grew up in North Carolina, been in Denver for about
eleven years, worked in it. It's been pretty cool. I
started getting into the protest the early days. I used
to be part of a party called the Party for
Socialism and Liberation. I was in there for about two
(04:06):
years off and on, and after maybe the first few
days of the protests, I decided to actually after the
first two weeks, I decided to leave the party and
just kind of go about it my way. I decided
to take a lot of pictures. I submitted pictures to
the Westward magazine here in Colorado. And you know what
(04:26):
got me really interested was not more so being in
the party as just a black person, you know, from
the South. You know, but as we know, it doesn't
matter if you're from the South or not. It is America,
but it was something that was really important to me.
I was more of an activist. I gave speeches at times,
and over time, myself and the rest of the community,
we were introduced to a violent how would I say,
(04:49):
a criminal that was sent by the FBI to derail
our movement. And at what point did you realize that
something funny what was going on? Over time, the protest became,
you know, to get a little bit more violent, you
know what was really more so peaceful in the beginning.
(05:09):
You know, it was escalated by the police started in
many cases, but over time you realize groups are starting
to splinter, and with it splintering, you know, a lot
of people get cast out, and in the process a
lot of violence just started to occur. It was weird,
you know, you just you know, see things lit on
fire or sometimes maybe bricks were out there in some places.
(05:33):
But over time you realize that it was a how
would I say, a specter haunting the protest, and that
specter was the criminal informed by the name of Michael Windecker. Yes,
he was sent down. When I first met him, it
was around late June early July. He was introduced to
the protest community through a now defunct portion of the
(05:55):
DSA called the Young DSA, Young Democratic Socialists of America. Okay,
and all of this transpired in twenty twenty, that's correct.
You know, the protest started before June, but towards the
end of June, this gentleman, I guess, started to go
get well noticed and he ended up taking some kind
of leadership role. At times, especially in the beginning, he
(06:18):
would tell protesters, hey, this is where the police are.
But over time those tips it appeared to turn into kettling.
So it was as if he was sent to do
well in the beginning or give that appearance that he
was doing well, but over time it really turned into
something like, you know, kettling or taking protesters in the
dangerous situations. Yeah, take me back a little bit, So
(06:41):
can you share what was the intention of the group
that you were associated with. What did they hope to
achieve through the protest? Would that have been the Party
for Socialism Liberation or just the overall protest groups that
I was around. Yeah, just the overall protest groups that
(07:02):
you were around. For the most part, it was justice
for black folks who have been getting killed by you know, police,
an unjust core system, you know, just the system that
really goes against anything that is pro black. Most of
the people were there for that, and then over time
some parts became more about ideology and it splintered into
(07:23):
just many different groups. And I feel that that was
probably primarily due to the infiltration of the FBI and
maybe other forms of law enforcement for show. Yeah, yeah,
it's not that I think. I kind of well, we
know now, you know, all the evidence is out there,
right And in terms of like co intel pro, did
(07:44):
you have any prior knowledge about co intel pro before
like getting involved in protest or even in organizing period. Oh? Absolutely,
you know, it's it's part of our history. You know,
we're very resilient folks, and any we do something and
become better and start uniting, you know, there's a higher power,
(08:04):
usually the FBI or CIA or even the course that
will do whatever they can to stifle what we can do.
You know, we've seen what they did to the Panthers,
Malcolm X, doctor King Sava Shakur and many other folks.
It's the history. It's what they do better than anything else.
They'll let off a bunch of white superviaces walk around.
But you know, can't have black folks getting people together
(08:25):
and doing right. Ain't that the truth? So understanding that history,
like amongst the people that you trusted in the protesting,
did you guys have conversations about you know, the potential
for infiltration. Oh? Absolutely, you know one of the big
(08:46):
models where don't trust anybody one hundred percent, you know,
any kind of movement, because anything can happen. We've seen
with standing rock snitches were used any protest in black
history and anything to infort trade. But I don't think
any of us really expected or now many of us
are shock that it came through a not full infiltration
(09:08):
into the DSA, but an association with this party. We
know these things will happen, but the way in which
it was put out there was just kind of shocking.
It was very bold. You know, you put this guy
there who sticks out like a sore thumb. You know,
he doesn't look like one of us by any means,
And it's just the way they so boldly did it.
It was just in the way in which it tricked folks.
(09:31):
And I believe that this more than likely happened all
over the country, in just in different ways. It couldn't
just be Denver, and I'm pretty sure there was a
lot more people in Denver that were working with him
or an association with law enforcement. It was all out
blitzone a movement for us, absolutely, I believe. You know,
(09:52):
ever since the designation of black folks asking and crying
help for justice for our lives, there has been this
designation within law enforcement, within governmental law enforcement, of black
extremists right as a designation of domestic terrorism. Although we
(10:15):
know that domestic terrorism is most deadly and most extreme
on the right, there has been this constant harassment of
black folks asking for the most minor freedoms right in
the land where we were born free supposedly. So I'm
(10:38):
curious because I know there's just so many things that
have happened there in Denver, And this show is really
about showcasing people who have been doing the work on
the ground and figuring out how to heal, you know,
through it. But also it's for survivors, and I know
(10:58):
right now you are also so facing an entrapment situation, right,
Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Yeah,
it's pretty interesting. They use a lot of my First
Amendment rights against me, the federal government, especially FBI. You know,
things a lot of us have said before. You know,
just because say, hey, I want to blow this up,
(11:20):
you know, motherfucker up, doesn't mean I'm going to do it.
You know, I've started doing jiu jitsu and some in
ma trading in the past two years, and you know,
I got upset with a how I say, professional fighter,
and I sent my set in my head, yeah I'm
going to But then I thought like, no, that's not
gonna happen. You know, everyone was in the heat of
the moment, you know, you know, it didn't matter if
it was left right, black white. It was twenty twenty.
(11:42):
You know, we have a pandemic. You know, a man
is murdered screaming for his mother, and it was uh yeah, sorry,
I kind of get like a rout up thinking about it.
I mean, it was a it was a very emotional time, definitely, yeah,
you know, and over time I met with this gentleman
quite a few times at protest. We weren't really hanging
(12:06):
out with this guy having coffee and going hiking with
him or anything, but he just show up one day.
You know, I let this guy, Michael Windecker come to
my house and we have a conversation. You know, I'm
talking about, you know, I want to work with my speeches,
you know, learn how to defend myself because I received
death threats. You know, over that summer, my car was
stolen for like three days. You know, it just so happens,
(12:27):
was found like two or three blocks away from you
know where I parked it. I was worried, and you know,
I just figured, hey, maybe this guy, he's been around,
he's cool with the DSA, potentially canting link me towards
some kind of way of learning how to defend myself
and you know, other things. But over time, in these conversations,
it's like, yeah, you know, we could just take it
(12:48):
all the way uptown, like you know, causing real violence.
And I'm like, I don't want to do anything like that.
It's not my interest. And in the beginning, we're always told,
you know, you never agree to do anything violent, you know,
but you know, within a short amount of time, you know,
he asked me to meet another gentleman named Bryce Shelby
at a barbecue restaurant. And at this restaurant, he asked
(13:10):
me to you know, murder the Attorney General. It's not
something that you just get asked every day, you know,
go have dinner or someone, Hey, man, you want to
go kill Phil Wiser. No, it doesn't happen. So after
he asked me this question, I'm like totally shocked, and
you know, I'm like terrified, I'm not going to kill
this dude. And I say, no, I'm not going to
do it. So he keeps, you know, pressing me to
(13:32):
do it, and you know, I am just like making
excuses like, hey, you know, I'd rather just wait six
to eight months. You know, I'll talk to people, raw
them up and get it. I'm angry with get it
through the you know, the winner, and people will be
mad and blah blah blah. But he's still trying to
push me, you know, to try to kill this guy.
And I'm like, okay, no, let's no, let's go through
(13:52):
the sewers. You know, I'm making all these excuses, you know,
or learn how to do this stuff because he's trying
to push me to do it and I refuse to
do it. But at this point, you know, he had
asked me to purchase him a gun in a process
shortly before, and I felt that if I didn't get
this guy this gun, you know, knowing that I turned
down this proposition to murder Phil Wiser, he would know
(14:16):
that I turned this down. The other gentleman, you know,
mister Shelby, would know that I turn it down. And
during the meal that we were having, mister Shelby agreed,
and you know, I don't think he completely went through
pursued it, but he knew that I turned it down.
And it was a fear of me. You know, at
my life at that point, have a kid, you know,
people all love and care about. So I eventually bought
(14:37):
this guy his gun out of fear. You know, I
own it. You know, I made a mistake. You know,
I was foolish enough to be around this person by myself,
but I wouldn't have done it, you know, if it
wasn't for the fear of like what he could do
or either any biker gangs he was associated with. And
now that I found out the FBI, Wow, so so
(14:58):
so sorry that you had to go through that, because
it's understood that fear can make you do things that
would be completely out of the question in other circumstances.
But what it really sounds like with having those you know,
two very violent people trying to force you into this
situation and really like pressing in on you, talking about
(15:23):
murdering people. What would make you think that they wanted
to do that to you? Since you know the plot? Now, Yeah,
if these guys were serious, if they weren't working for
the FBI, and they were just seriously, like you know,
just some you know, hardcore thugs, you know what cause
would you have to trust that they would not murder you?
(15:48):
Now that you knew the plot exactly, and you know,
one of the gentlemen who wasn't an informant, mister Shelby,
you know, shortly before my sentencing for giving a gun
to a felon, he gives me a call and he says, hey, man,
I'm sorry. You know I thought you were snitched. And
he explained to me that a lot of them ended
up thinking that I was a snitch because I didn't
(16:08):
have a felony. I had my own place, I had
my own car, had a career, and he felt bad.
I'm like, well, no, I was really down. But that's
where the snitch jacketing came in. After I was intimidated
to buy this guy the gun, I started to stay
away from him. And when that happened, you know, he
put the snitch jacket on me like he did a
(16:28):
few other folks, quite a few folks. So when I
would start trying to tell the other protesters, hey, you've
got to watch out for this guy, You've got to
watch out for these people that are associated with him,
because he had why DSA folks doing reconnaissance for him,
and no one wanted to listen to me, you know,
but at that point, he was already out it, but
he still had people down there, and I ended up,
(16:50):
you know, very seldom coming out at that point because
I also felt that, hey, I got to keep them
safe because he already knows this on me. So either
if he's a law enforcement or a biker whatnot, it
puts them in jeopardy as well. So I was completely alienated.
And with that being said, a little less than a
year later, in July twenty seventh, I believe of twenty
(17:13):
twenty one, I was picked up with my job by
the FBI. But by this point, you know, I couldn't
reach out to community for help. You know, the snitchjacket
already been placed on me. So I was, you know,
kind of deserted. And as we all know, when you
put the snitchjacket on someone, that's almost like a death threat,
you know, because at that point, you know, either a
(17:34):
former protester, colleague, ally, comrade, or whatever you know, could
think that you really are this snitch and that could
hurt you. Or in many cases, as we've seen with
the Panthers in the past, they'll have someone kill you
and blame it on one of the protesters. So it's
it was a terrifying experience. I'm happy to snitch jackets off,
(17:54):
but I'm still terrified. You know, I've got a probation officer.
I had a talk yesterday and you know, I popped
two tests for weed, and you know it's I've got to,
you know, stop, And it's not fair. I think they
know it's not fair now that they've been caught red handed.
I think it's more disrespectful, at least to me, because
I can't speak for everyone else. That they know they're caught,
(18:17):
but they can't even acknowledge it and they only give
us a no comment. I think that's more disrespectful than
the act. Itsel that you can't even acknowledge it, and
you know, the courts know it as well. At my sentencing,
you know, I was asked did I get this guy
the gun because I was afraid? And I say yeah,
told him yeah. So at that point it's like, well,
if you know that's the case, you know that I
(18:38):
felt that I was under threat by the FBI's informant,
so why charge me? And I think it was more
so an attempt to keep me quiet and as well
as a lot of other folks as well. Absolutely, I
think it's so important, and I thank you so much
for sharing this experience because you know, their tactic of
silencing and isolating it could have worked, and you could
(19:02):
have kept this under wraps and only you know, talked
to other people that you know personally about it, you know,
and the people that are doing the work every day,
you know in neighborhoods and communities that they don't know.
They haven't imagined that law enforcement could, the FBI, the
(19:23):
Alphabet Boys could or would do this to its own citizens.
It's just really important that you share this because one
we should be aware, and two by you coming forth
with this information, maybe it can give us a path
forward to change. Yeah, absolutely, and hold that thought. We'll
(19:49):
be right back after a word from our sponsors. So
(20:12):
I am curious do you think that just considering this
nation's history with cointelpro the history of setting up black
folks and murdering people and burying evidence, and you know,
just all of the with all of the wrongs that
(20:33):
we have experienced. I'm just curious, do you feel like,
as you're going through all of this turmoil, do you
feel like there is a path forward? Like what would
you recommend to the FBI and the rest of the
Alphabet boys about how to deal with black citizens in
(20:56):
the ideal world? What would be the what would be
the new vision of relationship? That sounds crazy, but if
you get humor me, wow, you know, it's been a
few hundred years now, you know. It's uh, I don't know.
I see so many different you know, opinions with all
(21:18):
of this, But I I just it's hard to really
speculate because I think, you know, we can look at
the FBI, we can look at the you know, law
enforcement in general, but if the courts are the ones
that are hiding the evidence and you know, allowing this
misconduct to happen, you know, even in liberal states as
(21:40):
I am in Colorado, it's hard to think any progress
is possible without you know, they're not approval, but how
much they'll allow because now it's apparent that they won't
even acknowledge that they're caught. At any point, you know,
the cork can call and say, hey, this was wrong.
You know, the public season now, so we need to
(22:01):
open everyone's cases, not even more so just mine, you know,
opening everyone's cases and be you know, very transparent. But
that doesn't appear to be the case. It's a very
terrifying thing for heck, not even just black folks, brown
folks and white folks. When the government can withhold information
and not want this out. I see so many different
(22:22):
you know angles, and you know how a lot of
us black folks look at things. I've been very interested
in learning about the Black expatan movement. A lot of
black folks are leaving a lot of black folks are
leaving very large cities, even if they're you know, liberal
ran cities, because you know, the poverty is so intense.
You know, these cities are spending a lot of money
(22:43):
on law enforcement. I look at Atlanta, for instance, with
the cop city issue. You know, people did all the
protesting and marching. And not only do we see that
law enforcement infiltrated and possibly destroyed everything, but these two
liberal mayors, the previous mayor in the current mayor Atlanta,
have pushed this, you know, military facility. So I look
(23:05):
a lot of the black expat movement, you know, even
if you don't go to Africa, the Caribbean, or some
other black or brown place, which I probably you know,
prefer this point, sadly, there's other white countries that would
even treat you better than your own white country and
shouldn't even be a white country. So that's a you know,
I look at that. Then there are folks who still
(23:26):
want to pursue things within communities. It's just so many
different options, and at this point we need to look
at everything, every option possible because it's a parent that
the government, even under this administration, you know, is not
taking action for things like this. So I don't have
a definite answer, you know, I have hope in many ways,
(23:47):
but I know we're very resilient people and that's probably
why they keep trying to do this to us. Well,
I hear that though I love actually that you mentioned
the expat black movie meant, but I will say that,
you know that they have eyes everywhere the hills have eyes. Okay.
I even think about in twenty nineteen, I traveled to
(24:11):
t Car, Senegal, and I definitely had a trail. There
was definitely someone that I would you know, I can't
prove it because I don't you know, have access to
my file, but there was someone who was questioning what
I was doing, you know, going to Senegal. Why was
(24:33):
I going to Senegal? And then I kept seeing this
person like throughout our stay and it wasn't it wasn't
a synchronicity. Okay. So just being aware that even when
we you know, leave here, there is just just this
persistent obsession with what we do, how we do it,
(24:58):
where we go. And that's not to bring fear. I
don't say that to bring fear. But we're pretty dope,
you know, yeah, we are. You know, it's like an addiction,
you know for some folks. And you know, this is
not different from what we've seen in the past, even
before the sixties. You know, there was that the movie
(25:21):
that just came out or not just but with Andrew
Day as Billie Holliday, right, Billy Holliday versus the United States,
which showed even then in the in the thirties and
the forties, like this pattern of the government's obsession with
trying to control the destiny and the future of black folks.
(25:44):
So at some point I believe that, you know, we
have to We're gonna have to be very clear and
you know, send a message. And I'm pretty sure the
message there will be like very a lot of variations
of it. And when I say that, I mean because
there's so many different paths, but we do have to
(26:07):
address this thing, because I don't think there's no running
from it. You're very right, and I like what you
said about, you know, the different paths, you know, looking
back on the black power movement in the sixties and seventies,
you know, and I sit here and think, now, you
know so many different paths. Why not so many different
black power movements? It's you know, anything that you know
(26:30):
helps us get better, you know, anything that builds community.
Not everyone's going to agree on everything, but there's some
group that you've grew on a lot of things with
and as a large overall people, you know, you've worked
with those different groups, and we've been segregated, we've been
under slavery, we've separated, we had our own cities that
have been sank. You know, We've done everything, and I
(26:53):
just know we're so resilient that we're going to keep
doing it. And I know now that since everyone knows
now that the government will perform a scoursed earth policy
literally to you know, stop our movement, it's now evident
that they can't use the smear anymore. You know, we've
known for decades that they've been doing this, but you
usually have to wait a decade or two to actually
(27:15):
get the evidence, and by that time, the prosecutors are gone,
the judges are going, the agents and informants are going.
But now you just had to wait less than three
years and all these people are still there. And that's
in every state. So I think I've been pushing something.
I think everyone since this is just me, Since the
government can't be transparent with what happened to us in
(27:36):
twenty twenty, it might be important for all of us
to start speaking because at that point, you know, you
can't just stop one or two people. You're going to
have to be looking at I think it was over
twenty million people that were protesting, you know, and the
government can't hide everything from all of us. We might
not be able to go back and stop what they did,
but I think we have a good chance of making
(27:58):
some kind of change if a lot of folk start
talking out absolutely, and that's a beautiful step forward, you know,
because I can only imagine, I mean, I've heard in Flint,
you know, that there were activists who ended up dead,
you know, And you know, I truly worry about some
(28:21):
of the bigger and urban cities that are already plagued
with gun violence because it seems that, you know, it
could be so easy, you know, to cover it up
as just a regular incident of you know, quote unquote
black on black violence, you know what I mean. So
(28:42):
I think it's so important that we use our voices
towards this, and we also reach for evidence, you know,
anything that we can show. So during the course of
this podcast, folks met an investigative journalist named Serice Castle
who who talked about her run ins with the Sheriff's
(29:04):
Department and how she used something called public Records request
or Public Records Act requests, so a PRA, and she
was able to see exactly what was happening, right, And
I understand that there's also like a process that people
can utilize to request like if they suspect that they've
(29:28):
been surveiled, that they can request like their FBI file
or their CIA file. But I don't have the full
details on that, but I wonder is that something that
you were able to do? Have you done that yet,
like to see like the extent of the surveillance. No,
(29:49):
outside of you know, my court documents, you just don't know.
I mean, you know, I look at the fact that
my car was stolen for free as so you just
don't know. And then as murricans, everything you do is
recorded anyway, every step you take, everything you do, they
know where you're at. So it's a little extra hard
on us. Yeah, I have no idea to the extent
(30:11):
which they did anything, but I am interested in getting
that foul though. Yeah, I mean, as much as we
can gather evidence. I think it's a part of the
protective factor. However, at the end of the day, if
they can run a scorched earth strategy, you know, and
(30:31):
get away with it, they will, you know. So tell
me more about the Alphabet Voice podcast. What can people expect? Uh,
you can expect the unexpected. It's imagine you know, I'm
not sure how anyone is on here. I'm thirty eight
years old, but when I was younger, I think Cinemax
is still around, like five o'clock in the morning. After
(30:52):
they got like all the you know, the thirty stuff
off of there, they had this one B movie that
comes on and it's like the weirdest B movie possible,
and you're like, this is too far fetched. Well that's
what I think about with this, But it's not too
far fetch. It's actually real. You know. Every episode is
going to introduce something new, something you weren't supposed to
(31:13):
hear before. Things you would have imagined, and outright government
corruption that's so blatant. But the way it was just
introduced into the protest and I think it gives a
good idea of probably what happened in every major city
in the country. And I hope it gives people the idea,
you know, educates them, you know, which was I knew
(31:33):
more about this, you know, before I was involved with it.
I think it can help educate a lot of people
on how to either protest or perform activism in the future.
It's very opening, eye opening. You'll be surprised every episode.
I can say that, and hopefully it gives a lot
of people across the country courage to just speak out.
(31:57):
The journalists owned this project is Trevor Aronson, but you know,
if you know anything, you know, I'd like to give
it to him. But there's always you know, reputable journalists
all over the country, and I think it's important that
all of our stories get out. You know, I'm just
one individual, you know, I'm happy that everybody within this
story has contributed. But this is just Deniver, It's not
(32:19):
even closest to the biggest city in the country. So
I really hope that The Alphabet Boys this first season,
in any upcoming seasons, gives people the courage to speak
out and you know, talk about any injustices that they
or anyone else is going through. Yeah, thank you for that. Man,
You're so right. I know that there are so many
(32:40):
stories that we have not heard in terms of people
surviving you know, this state violence, you know, and so
there should be like a place for people to be
directed to share this information. I'm sure it will be attacked,
but you know, at least it's a start, right And
(33:04):
then I'm also like really happy that you mentioned the
role that you know, journalists could play in amplifying the
voices of survivors of state violence. I mean, there has
been very little recourse for survivors of state violence. You know,
(33:25):
throughout the decades. We saw for many years the families
associated with like the move organization in Philadelphia not receive
any justice. We saw them, you know, gelled for surviving,
you know, with their life assaults from the state. And
(33:46):
then we you know, we continue to see the imprisonment
of when we Abu Jamal and the persecution of Asada Shakur,
you know, all incidents of state violence that remain unhealed, unaddressed, unrepaired.
So I just think it's so important for those who
(34:09):
are out there, and they already and I think it's
I do think it's really important that if you were
coming forward after receiving a sentence right in your entrapment case,
and can you actually tell us about what the sentence
was if it's okay, Yeah, I'm on probation for three years,
(34:33):
you know, because I'm a not violent criminal. Biody means
I have to ask to leave the state. I have
to call a urinary analysis phone number every morning. I
have to pay eleven dollars for each test and since
I did, you know, fail like a few marijuana tests.
I my stipulation now is you have to join a
(34:54):
drug treatment program, even though it's very odd. You know,
a lot of people think marijuana is legal, you know,
when you're own federal probation doesn't matter if you're in Denver,
Colorad or not. It's not legal. Wow. Yeah yeah, So
it's it's got to ly showed me and it doesn't
feel comfortable, and especially with the government knowing that the
public knows what they did, it's very scary. You know,
(35:19):
I can look at doing ten years in prison compared
to the informant, Michael Windecker, who I think just might
have done just over two years. It's terrifying. And it's
also slapping the face to all of us. When the courts,
you know, allowed this, it kind of said like, hey,
you all did this, and you know, went all this
big protests around the entire country, and try again next time.
(35:41):
That's what it feels like. So slap in the face.
And then you know the FBI their Twitter account there,
especially the Denver branch, they're putting up Black History Month things,
you know, and I'm like, really, you know, I'm like,
come on, now, you're just gonna smear it in a
little bit more than you already have. It's very disrespectful.
Something that boggles me is the fact that the Attorney
(36:03):
General and our elected officials here, they haven't even spoken
about it. We have a mayor oal race that's going
on in the elections April. Second, I haven't heard anyone
really talking about this. You would think that our local
and state officials, you know, would have this on their mind.
It's really weird, especially from our Attorney General, Phil Wiser.
(36:23):
I would think that as an elect official, as a
human being in general, with I found out someone set
up an assassination attempt on me and it wasn't real,
I'd fee a little more concerned, you know, I'd be
asking some questions like, hey, what's this about? But nothing.
So it makes me question how deep the government was in.
You just don't know now because he's not saying anything.
(36:47):
I'm going to ask you if you found out someone
set up a fa assassination attempt on you, when you
just have some questions at least just a few, of course,
I mean. And at the same time, yeah, I mean
I think it definitely his questions about you know, who
are all the players? You know? Yeah, and that's funny.
There's a Republican House member in North Carolina. I can't
(37:10):
remember his name, and I'll try to get that to
you later he mentioned this and said, you know, I'm
not sure what his intentions are, but he said, you know,
this was Entrappman, and it's wrong if it happens to
people on the Republican side or people on the left.
And then there's a Senator in Oregon named Ron Wyden.
And I could be wrong, but he's listened to some
of the podcasts and the information and he wants to
(37:31):
launch an investigation. Apparently he's talked about this, and it
was mentioned in the Guardian magazine in the article that
was released yesterday. So it's people know. But now it's like, okay, courts, well,
we know, politicians know there's this sub this committee within
the House, which let's say it's biased at best. You know,
(37:52):
it's looking for, you know, a weaponization by these agencies
like the FBI, CIA. And now that all this has happened,
and I'll still question where's the role of the courts
and all this? You know, they know this stuff is here,
and I look at people who might have been imprisoned
from Denver in twenty twenty or charges they took, and
(38:12):
now that all of this is out, all of our
cases should be reopened. Absolutely, I think that's a fair ask. Yeah,
it's you seeing a career criminal who has been a
law enforcement snitch for at least about twenty years or so.
And they also lied to local media the FBI. You know,
they told CBS and the other outlets here that they
(38:34):
foiled this plot. But the plot was never going through
because no one agreed to do it. So the fact
that you know, they're not even to be a question
on that, we just received no comment. It's absolutely rude.
It's just imagining. You know, you have someone who has
to plead guilty or not guilty and they just stand
there and they don't say anything. It's kind of what
(38:55):
the FBI is doing. Well, it's very interesting because I
think that that's often what happens is that there's no response.
You know, it's just an unresponsive just it's an unresponsive
entity right when it comes to accountability. And you mentioned
(39:18):
earlier like how we could have you know, a variety
of black power movements, right, well, there could be also
like FBI, CIA, black power movements. Okay, not exclusive to
black people, but just like how there are whistle blowers
(39:38):
at every level of government, Like you know, they could
definitely change things. Also, you know folks who were working
in the courts and they're seeing this pattern. Like because
at the end of the day, these systems, they're made
up of people. And I like to start each episode
with like, you know, welcoming good people. And and you know,
(40:00):
maybe not everybody thinks of themselves as a good person,
or maybe some people don't have the imagination to believe
there are any good people. But I hold space for
the fact that everybody has some good in them. And
so I'm speaking to the good in people. You know
that I don't care what job you do, I don't
(40:22):
care what you've done in the past. You know, you
have every opportunity every day to stand up for what's right.
And so if you are in the Denver court system
and you're hearing this, you have an opportunity to be
on the right side of history and the right side
of justice, and you can utilize the good in you
(40:45):
to make a change. I think, so support your local whistleblower.
You know, you know I totally believe it that it's
like I look at police officers, you know, I think
a lot of them go in want them to do
the right thing, and then a lot of the good
officers are they're going to get blackballed, they're labeled as snitches.
There's a case out in California. Even though I'm kind
(41:08):
of getting sidetracked here, but it was a detective I
believe named Houston Tipping and he was investigating some of
his you know, police colleagues for a gag rate that
apparently happened and you know, somehow in a training exercise
he was he died and it was with a lot
of these people who he was investigating. And I guess
(41:30):
the LAPD found, you know, no wrongdoing, or LA Sheriff's Department.
So it's good officers or people are officers who want
to do well, they are destroyed or they have to quit,
or they're labeled as bad they're getting written up. Because
we've seen so many police officers and you know, in
our lives wanting to speak out. But it's the fear,
(41:53):
you know, because you have to think. You know, I
guess a lot'st while a lot of them just quit
and I think that's the best thing to do if
the system is pushing you that way. But they probably
understand that, you know, they get worked over worse than us.
And then I have to look at, you know, the
racism within police departments, a lot of black folks who,
as we know, black costs thrown out for the white cops.
(42:14):
Look at those not gonna call them brothers, but those
men in Memphis who killed that brother. You know, they
were locked up quick, you know, but it took a
while for the murderers of Elijah McLain here in Colorado
to get locked up. It took over two years. But
you know, Jessica, you're black, doesn't really give you a
seat at the table either, That's correct. Yeah, I mean
(42:36):
we have we have so much work to do. And again,
it has to happen at every level, you know, every
every person has a stake in this, and it's so
easy to give into fear. I've always thought about the
fact that Cohen's help pro worked so well because it
(42:58):
gave rise to this dis trust, you know, and that
distrust could so easily stop all movements. You know, However,
as you've mentioned several times, you know, we are resilient people.
You know, despite all of the ways that we have
(43:20):
been attacked through state sanctioned actions, we continue to rise,
you know, like Maya Angelo, like straight up, you know.
And as we rise, though, and you know, because of poverty,
because of desperation, because of hopelessness, because of trauma, because
(43:41):
of internalized racism, we take these jobs that would continue
the oppression of our own folks. You know, it's so difficult,
it's so difficult to even imagine that you could be
the one to you know, make a change. But I
(44:03):
just want to reiterate that, you know, anybody could be
the one to make a change, just you have to.
You have to appeal to the good in yourself, like
you know, and and even when you're not, even when
you know you to'm fucked up, you could be that
(44:23):
rare person that could you know, step up and be
accountable to your fuck ups. Like even in this situation,
we could have the FBI be accountable to their fuck up.
You know. Yeah, we pay taxes, you know, even like
I said, even people who weren't even for the BLN move,
(44:44):
I look at like this, you might have been in
a red state, you know, your whole house could be
decked out with Trump. You know, go do what you
gotta do. You know, it's all you. But you could
say you were against the movement, but you did support it.
Your tax money supported the burning down and destruction in
the cities that you'll probably never go to. You know,
these are very hardcore Trump supporters, even conservatives moderate people either. Anyway,
(45:08):
then that money, your tax money, was used to censor
you from knowing about it, and then your tax money
was used to rebuild these cities that you probably won't
even live in. And now your tax money's been used
to just say, hey, no comment. And the thing is,
even if you were not for the movement, you supported it.
And I think, you know, conservatives need to realize the
ones that weren't for our movement. Hey, your government screwed
(45:31):
you too. They took your cash, they took your bread.
And I've seen a lot of conservatives on Twitter You're like, yeah,
this is not right, you know, because now we're seeing
both sides, black people, white people, left right and everything
in the middle say hey, we're not liking the FBI anymore.
And I think we all need to just press them now,
you know, because if those right wing people are doing
(45:52):
it no matter what their intentions are. People on the
left and black people in particular, should be pressing them
as well. You know, from every single angle, this is
like it's like a spider web. You know. You can
take one a little like strand off, you know, but
it's not going to do anything because if you go
to another strand, the spiders is going to come there,
put it back together, and come catchy. So if you
(46:12):
had this coming from every angle, that can probably get
a lot more done than you know, a lot of
people are saying, hey, you know, they're going to hate
them for their reasons. They're like, no, no, we don't
like them either, So put the pressure there. No, absolutely,
And you briefly touched on the situation in Memphis. I
do want to just give love and condolences to the
(46:37):
family and loved ones of Tyree Nichols. We're going to
take a short break to hear from our sponsors as
(47:07):
we hear what ZEB has run down to us. I
just hope that folks are taking it in and taking
notes and if they have the resources, if they're in
position to do so, especially like any investigative journalists out there,
(47:28):
any lawyers you know, really consider taking up this cause,
you know, really consider doing an audit of the court
cases that came out of those twenty twenty protests and
really get some of this stuff going. And definitely listen
(47:48):
to the Alphabet Boys podcast and you can get a
podcast anywhere you get podcasts, right, yeah, absolutely so. Are
there any practices that you do for like your own sanity,
your own piece, your own healing. Oh yeah. A month
(48:11):
and a half before I was picked up, I started
partaking in a Brazilian jiu jitsu. I love grappling. You know,
I'm okay with striking, you know, I'm all right, But
I love the act of grappling. It's no matter what
you're going through in life, you know, when you have
to just sit there and completely focused because you can't
be thinking about, like, man, you know what am I
(48:32):
going to eat tonight? When your arm is like you
gonna get caught in an arm bar or something, it's
a I love grappling. When I started, I think I
was about two hundred and sixty pounds and I was
having some severe health issues and it will start to
add up, and oh man, the first week I just figured,
you know, I've got this big gee on this kimono
type thing, and I'm like, oh man, I'm two hundred
(48:53):
and sixty pounds. I can just lay on this person.
And you know, I got pretzeled all week, you know.
You know, it was very, very humbling. And at the
end of the week, you know, I started on June eleven,
and I think by the sixteenth or somewhere around there,
at the end of the week, I'm looking in the
mirror and I'm scratched up all over and everything, you know,
(49:14):
because I've been getting beat up by people like one
hundred pounds less than me or even more. And I
looked in the mirror and I say, yeah, you can't
quit this. It's you know, I person, you know, struggled
with who I am at times. You know, a lot
of times throughout my life, lacked a lot of confidence.
But jiu jitsu, wrestling, you know, a little bit of judo.
(49:35):
It's been the thing that's gotten me through all this.
You know, a great support system with friends and loved ones.
Therapy most of us means to be in it, you know,
most people in general. But you know, being on that mat,
you know, having to, as Wu Tang say, to protect
your neck, you know, it's very humbling. I've only been
doing it for about a year and a half, but
(49:55):
you know you're going to tap out, and that's such
a humbling experience knowing that some one could, you know,
a partner could just be angry it's something and finish it,
you know. But it's like, hey, we made a mistake,
Let's try it again, Let's roll it through again. This
is what I did, this is how we did this.
This is how you prevent this, and you know, just
keep getting better. And it's the constant challenge, the pressure
(50:17):
of having someone much bigger than you on your back
or on your chest, and you have to learn not
to panic, you know, when you're in that situation. It
helped me so much with all of this that I've
been through. It makes me feel like a more positive
masculine person, you know, who wants to use that for
the good of more people, a more positive person to myself. Yeah,
(50:41):
anybody out there, you know, if you're interested in a
kind of martial art, you know, give some grappling a chance,
but experience the pressure. It really helps out with other
things in life. Very beautiful. Thank you so much for
joining us for survivors here and yeah, did you have
some last well, you asked me. So what do you
(51:06):
do to keep your sanity in this courage world? Oh? Man,
there's a lot of things I do. I do tend
to meditate, I tend to write. I really really love music,
so I use music in my daily life to move
me forward. So thank you for asking well, thanks for
(51:29):
asking me, Thanks for having me on. And love you
and to everybody in your life, you know you love
them too. Thank you, thank you, and you know ditto.
In closing, we have come to the end of this
season and I just want to take the time to
(51:52):
express so much gratitude to all of you that have
listened in to the Survivor's Hill podcast. To those of
you who have reached out to me, you are amazing
and I appreciate you taking the time to share your
stories and ideas. It's been an incredible journey so far,
and I really want to thank the Next Up Initiative
(52:14):
for giving me a chance to share the important stories
from the trenches of the new Survivor's movement. I also
want to send a budget of love to all those
who made the show possible, like my Dovaz producers, all
the editors, and certainly all of the amazing guests. If
(52:36):
you have been moved by the Survivor's Heel podcast, please
join the movement and also like, share, and comment on
any and every platform that you listen in with and
reach out. You can reach me on ig at Survivor's
Heel and you can also visit the website at Survivor's
(52:59):
Hill com for bonus content, resources, and more. It's been
such a pleasure to have this opportunity, and if you
want more of this, you gotta let me know. Lastly,
when I tell y'all, getting to this moment has been
a crazy, wild, sometimes dark and scary ride. I'm holding
(53:22):
no water, but I've learned so much and grown so much.
I wouldn't change a minute of it. The things that
do need changing, though, we're working on them, and I'm
inviting you all, wherever you are good people to not
only survive this rugged world, but to heal as well.
(53:45):
Peace disclaimer. My views, beliefs, and opinions are my own
and do not necessarily refer reflect the views of my guest,
resource organizations or sources shared. Last thing. Every day we
(54:17):
survive is a new chance to see killing. Peace to
your journey, good people as Shay
Content warning. This episode will discuss a lot of heavy
topics such as state violence. Please be kind to yourself,
prepare yourself with before and or after care, and remember
if you are a loved one is going through it,
you can dial the Black Line at one eight hundred
(00:23):
six O four five eight four one. The Black Line
provides a space for peer support, counseling, reporting of mistreatment,
witnessing and affirming the lived experience for folks who are
most impacted by systematic oppression. With an LGBTQ plus blackfem lens,
(00:45):
It's a crisis listening line and once again you can
dial in by calling one eight hundred six O four
five eight four one. Thank you. Join us to explore
(01:09):
the stories, policies, practices and idea so the new Survivors move.
This is Saviva's Hills with your host, your host. Oh yah,
oh yah, Hell Charil. Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, good people. This
is your host. Oh yeah, El Charelle's. You're listening to
(01:31):
the Survivor's Hill podcast. And today we have a very
special guest who has, you know, a very troubling story
to share with us. However, it is a story that's
been repeated throughout history, and we're always making history. History
(01:53):
is always happening, so we want to make sure to
add this to the official But without further ado, I
am here with activist zeb Hall. Hi there, Hello, how's everyone?
Zeb Can you tell me your full name? Yes, my
(02:14):
name is Zebedias doorn Hall. That's a really strong name, Zebediah.
Can you share like what it means if you know? Well,
my mother named me after a friend of hers. I
guess he passed away before I was born. And you know,
I guess it means for some translations, it's like gift
from God. But I'm just zeb for the most part. Okay. Well, Zeb,
(02:39):
I know that there has been some incidents that have
gone down in Denver, Colorado, and it's something that you
have shared with the new podcast Alphabet Boys. Yes, that's correct.
It's a pretty interesting podcast. It's a lot more to come.
We've had three episodes so far. It goes over how
(03:00):
the FBI used a criminal informant to infiltrate the bl
and protest and ultimately cause the demise. Wow, and so
is it that you were an activist on the ground
in Denver yourself as well? Yes, that's correct. I started
out in the early days, and I stayed until for
(03:21):
the most part, right before things really completely fill apart.
It was a pretty interesting summer, as we all know,
but it was a lot of things that a lot
of people expected, but not the way it came out.
So can you tell us a little bit about your background,
like where you're from and what inspired you to get
(03:43):
involved with the activism after George Floyd H Yeah, I
grew up in North Carolina, been in Denver for about
eleven years, worked in it. It's been pretty cool. I
started getting into the protest the early days. I used
to be part of a party called the Party for
Socialism and Liberation. I was in there for about two
(04:06):
years off and on, and after maybe the first few
days of the protests, I decided to actually after the
first two weeks, I decided to leave the party and
just kind of go about it my way. I decided
to take a lot of pictures. I submitted pictures to
the Westward magazine here in Colorado. And you know what
(04:26):
got me really interested was not more so being in
the party as just a black person, you know, from
the South. You know, but as we know, it doesn't
matter if you're from the South or not. It is America,
but it was something that was really important to me.
I was more of an activist. I gave speeches at times,
and over time, myself and the rest of the community,
we were introduced to a violent how would I say,
(04:49):
a criminal that was sent by the FBI to derail
our movement. And at what point did you realize that
something funny what was going on? Over time, the protest became,
you know, to get a little bit more violent, you
know what was really more so peaceful in the beginning.
(05:09):
You know, it was escalated by the police started in
many cases, but over time you realize groups are starting
to splinter, and with it splintering, you know, a lot
of people get cast out, and in the process a
lot of violence just started to occur. It was weird,
you know, you just you know, see things lit on
fire or sometimes maybe bricks were out there in some places.
(05:33):
But over time you realize that it was a how
would I say, a specter haunting the protest, and that
specter was the criminal informed by the name of Michael Windecker. Yes,
he was sent down. When I first met him, it
was around late June early July. He was introduced to
the protest community through a now defunct portion of the
(05:55):
DSA called the Young DSA, Young Democratic Socialists of America. Okay,
and all of this transpired in twenty twenty, that's correct.
You know, the protest started before June, but towards the
end of June, this gentleman, I guess, started to go
get well noticed and he ended up taking some kind
of leadership role. At times, especially in the beginning, he
(06:18):
would tell protesters, hey, this is where the police are.
But over time those tips it appeared to turn into kettling.
So it was as if he was sent to do
well in the beginning or give that appearance that he
was doing well, but over time it really turned into
something like, you know, kettling or taking protesters in the
dangerous situations. Yeah, take me back a little bit, So
(06:41):
can you share what was the intention of the group
that you were associated with. What did they hope to
achieve through the protest? Would that have been the Party
for Socialism Liberation or just the overall protest groups that
I was around. Yeah, just the overall protest groups that
(07:02):
you were around. For the most part, it was justice
for black folks who have been getting killed by you know, police,
an unjust core system, you know, just the system that
really goes against anything that is pro black. Most of
the people were there for that, and then over time
some parts became more about ideology and it splintered into
(07:23):
just many different groups. And I feel that that was
probably primarily due to the infiltration of the FBI and
maybe other forms of law enforcement for show. Yeah, yeah,
it's not that I think. I kind of well, we
know now, you know, all the evidence is out there,
right And in terms of like co intel pro, did
(07:44):
you have any prior knowledge about co intel pro before
like getting involved in protest or even in organizing period. Oh? Absolutely,
you know, it's it's part of our history. You know,
we're very resilient folks, and any we do something and
become better and start uniting, you know, there's a higher power,
(08:04):
usually the FBI or CIA or even the course that
will do whatever they can to stifle what we can do.
You know, we've seen what they did to the Panthers,
Malcolm X, doctor King Sava Shakur and many other folks.
It's the history. It's what they do better than anything else.
They'll let off a bunch of white superviaces walk around.
But you know, can't have black folks getting people together
(08:25):
and doing right. Ain't that the truth? So understanding that history,
like amongst the people that you trusted in the protesting,
did you guys have conversations about you know, the potential
for infiltration. Oh? Absolutely, you know one of the big
(08:46):
models where don't trust anybody one hundred percent, you know,
any kind of movement, because anything can happen. We've seen
with standing rock snitches were used any protest in black
history and anything to infort trade. But I don't think
any of us really expected or now many of us
are shock that it came through a not full infiltration
(09:08):
into the DSA, but an association with this party. We
know these things will happen, but the way in which
it was put out there was just kind of shocking.
It was very bold. You know, you put this guy
there who sticks out like a sore thumb. You know,
he doesn't look like one of us by any means,
And it's just the way they so boldly did it.
It was just in the way in which it tricked folks.
(09:31):
And I believe that this more than likely happened all
over the country, in just in different ways. It couldn't
just be Denver, and I'm pretty sure there was a
lot more people in Denver that were working with him
or an association with law enforcement. It was all out
blitzone a movement for us, absolutely, I believe. You know,
(09:52):
ever since the designation of black folks asking and crying
help for justice for our lives, there has been this
designation within law enforcement, within governmental law enforcement, of black
extremists right as a designation of domestic terrorism. Although we
(10:15):
know that domestic terrorism is most deadly and most extreme
on the right, there has been this constant harassment of
black folks asking for the most minor freedoms right in
the land where we were born free supposedly. So I'm
(10:38):
curious because I know there's just so many things that
have happened there in Denver, And this show is really
about showcasing people who have been doing the work on
the ground and figuring out how to heal, you know,
through it. But also it's for survivors, and I know
(10:58):
right now you are also so facing an entrapment situation, right,
Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Yeah,
it's pretty interesting. They use a lot of my First
Amendment rights against me, the federal government, especially FBI. You know,
things a lot of us have said before. You know,
just because say, hey, I want to blow this up,
(11:20):
you know, motherfucker up, doesn't mean I'm going to do it.
You know, I've started doing jiu jitsu and some in
ma trading in the past two years, and you know,
I got upset with a how I say, professional fighter,
and I sent my set in my head, yeah I'm
going to But then I thought like, no, that's not
gonna happen. You know, everyone was in the heat of
the moment, you know, you know, it didn't matter if
it was left right, black white. It was twenty twenty.
(11:42):
You know, we have a pandemic. You know, a man
is murdered screaming for his mother, and it was uh yeah, sorry,
I kind of get like a rout up thinking about it.
I mean, it was a it was a very emotional time, definitely, yeah,
you know, and over time I met with this gentleman
quite a few times at protest. We weren't really hanging
(12:06):
out with this guy having coffee and going hiking with
him or anything, but he just show up one day.
You know, I let this guy, Michael Windecker come to
my house and we have a conversation. You know, I'm
talking about, you know, I want to work with my speeches,
you know, learn how to defend myself because I received
death threats. You know, over that summer, my car was
stolen for like three days. You know, it just so happens,
(12:27):
was found like two or three blocks away from you
know where I parked it. I was worried, and you know,
I just figured, hey, maybe this guy, he's been around,
he's cool with the DSA, potentially canting link me towards
some kind of way of learning how to defend myself
and you know, other things. But over time, in these conversations,
it's like, yeah, you know, we could just take it
(12:48):
all the way uptown, like you know, causing real violence.
And I'm like, I don't want to do anything like that.
It's not my interest. And in the beginning, we're always told,
you know, you never agree to do anything violent, you know,
but you know, within a short amount of time, you know,
he asked me to meet another gentleman named Bryce Shelby
at a barbecue restaurant. And at this restaurant, he asked
(13:10):
me to you know, murder the Attorney General. It's not
something that you just get asked every day, you know,
go have dinner or someone, Hey, man, you want to
go kill Phil Wiser. No, it doesn't happen. So after
he asked me this question, I'm like totally shocked, and
you know, I'm like terrified, I'm not going to kill
this dude. And I say, no, I'm not going to
do it. So he keeps, you know, pressing me to
(13:32):
do it, and you know, I am just like making
excuses like, hey, you know, I'd rather just wait six
to eight months. You know, I'll talk to people, raw
them up and get it. I'm angry with get it
through the you know, the winner, and people will be
mad and blah blah blah. But he's still trying to
push me, you know, to try to kill this guy.
And I'm like, okay, no, let's no, let's go through
(13:52):
the sewers. You know, I'm making all these excuses, you know,
or learn how to do this stuff because he's trying
to push me to do it and I refuse to
do it. But at this point, you know, he had
asked me to purchase him a gun in a process
shortly before, and I felt that if I didn't get
this guy this gun, you know, knowing that I turned
down this proposition to murder Phil Wiser, he would know
(14:16):
that I turned this down. The other gentleman, you know,
mister Shelby, would know that I turn it down. And
during the meal that we were having, mister Shelby agreed,
and you know, I don't think he completely went through
pursued it, but he knew that I turned it down.
And it was a fear of me. You know, at
my life at that point, have a kid, you know,
people all love and care about. So I eventually bought
(14:37):
this guy his gun out of fear. You know, I
own it. You know, I made a mistake. You know,
I was foolish enough to be around this person by myself,
but I wouldn't have done it, you know, if it
wasn't for the fear of like what he could do
or either any biker gangs he was associated with. And
now that I found out the FBI, Wow, so so
(14:58):
so sorry that you had to go through that, because
it's understood that fear can make you do things that
would be completely out of the question in other circumstances.
But what it really sounds like with having those you know,
two very violent people trying to force you into this
situation and really like pressing in on you, talking about
(15:23):
murdering people. What would make you think that they wanted
to do that to you? Since you know the plot? Now, Yeah,
if these guys were serious, if they weren't working for
the FBI, and they were just seriously, like you know,
just some you know, hardcore thugs, you know what cause
would you have to trust that they would not murder you?
(15:48):
Now that you knew the plot exactly, and you know,
one of the gentlemen who wasn't an informant, mister Shelby,
you know, shortly before my sentencing for giving a gun
to a felon, he gives me a call and he says, hey, man,
I'm sorry. You know I thought you were snitched. And
he explained to me that a lot of them ended
up thinking that I was a snitch because I didn't
(16:08):
have a felony. I had my own place, I had
my own car, had a career, and he felt bad.
I'm like, well, no, I was really down. But that's
where the snitch jacketing came in. After I was intimidated
to buy this guy the gun, I started to stay
away from him. And when that happened, you know, he
put the snitch jacket on me like he did a
(16:28):
few other folks, quite a few folks. So when I
would start trying to tell the other protesters, hey, you've
got to watch out for this guy, You've got to
watch out for these people that are associated with him,
because he had why DSA folks doing reconnaissance for him,
and no one wanted to listen to me, you know,
but at that point, he was already out it, but
he still had people down there, and I ended up,
(16:50):
you know, very seldom coming out at that point because
I also felt that, hey, I got to keep them
safe because he already knows this on me. So either
if he's a law enforcement or a biker whatnot, it
puts them in jeopardy as well. So I was completely alienated.
And with that being said, a little less than a
year later, in July twenty seventh, I believe of twenty
(17:13):
twenty one, I was picked up with my job by
the FBI. But by this point, you know, I couldn't
reach out to community for help. You know, the snitchjacket
already been placed on me. So I was, you know,
kind of deserted. And as we all know, when you
put the snitchjacket on someone, that's almost like a death threat,
you know, because at that point, you know, either a
(17:34):
former protester, colleague, ally, comrade, or whatever you know, could
think that you really are this snitch and that could
hurt you. Or in many cases, as we've seen with
the Panthers in the past, they'll have someone kill you
and blame it on one of the protesters. So it's
it was a terrifying experience. I'm happy to snitch jackets off,
(17:54):
but I'm still terrified. You know, I've got a probation officer.
I had a talk yesterday and you know, I popped
two tests for weed, and you know it's I've got to,
you know, stop, And it's not fair. I think they
know it's not fair now that they've been caught red handed.
I think it's more disrespectful, at least to me, because
I can't speak for everyone else. That they know they're caught,
(18:17):
but they can't even acknowledge it and they only give
us a no comment. I think that's more disrespectful than
the act. Itsel that you can't even acknowledge it, and
you know, the courts know it as well. At my sentencing,
you know, I was asked did I get this guy
the gun because I was afraid? And I say yeah,
told him yeah. So at that point it's like, well,
if you know that's the case, you know that I
(18:38):
felt that I was under threat by the FBI's informant,
so why charge me? And I think it was more
so an attempt to keep me quiet and as well
as a lot of other folks as well. Absolutely, I
think it's so important, and I thank you so much
for sharing this experience because you know, their tactic of
silencing and isolating it could have worked, and you could
(19:02):
have kept this under wraps and only you know, talked
to other people that you know personally about it, you know,
and the people that are doing the work every day,
you know in neighborhoods and communities that they don't know.
They haven't imagined that law enforcement could, the FBI, the
(19:23):
Alphabet Boys could or would do this to its own citizens.
It's just really important that you share this because one
we should be aware, and two by you coming forth
with this information, maybe it can give us a path
forward to change. Yeah, absolutely, and hold that thought. We'll
(19:49):
be right back after a word from our sponsors. So
(20:12):
I am curious do you think that just considering this
nation's history with cointelpro the history of setting up black
folks and murdering people and burying evidence, and you know,
just all of the with all of the wrongs that
(20:33):
we have experienced. I'm just curious, do you feel like,
as you're going through all of this turmoil, do you
feel like there is a path forward? Like what would
you recommend to the FBI and the rest of the
Alphabet boys about how to deal with black citizens in
(20:56):
the ideal world? What would be the what would be
the new vision of relationship? That sounds crazy, but if
you get humor me, wow, you know, it's been a
few hundred years now, you know. It's uh, I don't know.
I see so many different you know, opinions with all
(21:18):
of this, But I I just it's hard to really
speculate because I think, you know, we can look at
the FBI, we can look at the you know, law
enforcement in general, but if the courts are the ones
that are hiding the evidence and you know, allowing this
misconduct to happen, you know, even in liberal states as
(21:40):
I am in Colorado, it's hard to think any progress
is possible without you know, they're not approval, but how
much they'll allow because now it's apparent that they won't
even acknowledge that they're caught. At any point, you know,
the cork can call and say, hey, this was wrong.
You know, the public season now, so we need to
(22:01):
open everyone's cases, not even more so just mine, you know,
opening everyone's cases and be you know, very transparent. But
that doesn't appear to be the case. It's a very
terrifying thing for heck, not even just black folks, brown
folks and white folks. When the government can withhold information
and not want this out. I see so many different
(22:22):
you know angles, and you know how a lot of
us black folks look at things. I've been very interested
in learning about the Black expatan movement. A lot of
black folks are leaving a lot of black folks are
leaving very large cities, even if they're you know, liberal
ran cities, because you know, the poverty is so intense.
You know, these cities are spending a lot of money
(22:43):
on law enforcement. I look at Atlanta, for instance, with
the cop city issue. You know, people did all the
protesting and marching. And not only do we see that
law enforcement infiltrated and possibly destroyed everything, but these two
liberal mayors, the previous mayor in the current mayor Atlanta,
have pushed this, you know, military facility. So I look
(23:05):
a lot of the black expat movement, you know, even
if you don't go to Africa, the Caribbean, or some
other black or brown place, which I probably you know,
prefer this point, sadly, there's other white countries that would
even treat you better than your own white country and
shouldn't even be a white country. So that's a you know,
I look at that. Then there are folks who still
(23:26):
want to pursue things within communities. It's just so many
different options, and at this point we need to look
at everything, every option possible because it's a parent that
the government, even under this administration, you know, is not
taking action for things like this. So I don't have
a definite answer, you know, I have hope in many ways,
(23:47):
but I know we're very resilient people and that's probably
why they keep trying to do this to us. Well,
I hear that though I love actually that you mentioned
the expat black movie meant, but I will say that,
you know that they have eyes everywhere the hills have eyes. Okay.
I even think about in twenty nineteen, I traveled to
(24:11):
t Car, Senegal, and I definitely had a trail. There
was definitely someone that I would you know, I can't
prove it because I don't you know, have access to
my file, but there was someone who was questioning what
I was doing, you know, going to Senegal. Why was
(24:33):
I going to Senegal? And then I kept seeing this
person like throughout our stay and it wasn't it wasn't
a synchronicity. Okay. So just being aware that even when
we you know, leave here, there is just just this
persistent obsession with what we do, how we do it,
(24:58):
where we go. And that's not to bring fear. I
don't say that to bring fear. But we're pretty dope,
you know, yeah, we are. You know, it's like an addiction,
you know for some folks. And you know, this is
not different from what we've seen in the past, even
before the sixties. You know, there was that the movie
(25:21):
that just came out or not just but with Andrew
Day as Billie Holliday, right, Billy Holliday versus the United States,
which showed even then in the in the thirties and
the forties, like this pattern of the government's obsession with
trying to control the destiny and the future of black folks.
(25:44):
So at some point I believe that, you know, we
have to We're gonna have to be very clear and
you know, send a message. And I'm pretty sure the
message there will be like very a lot of variations
of it. And when I say that, I mean because
there's so many different paths, but we do have to
(26:07):
address this thing, because I don't think there's no running
from it. You're very right, and I like what you
said about, you know, the different paths, you know, looking
back on the black power movement in the sixties and seventies,
you know, and I sit here and think, now, you
know so many different paths. Why not so many different
black power movements? It's you know, anything that you know
(26:30):
helps us get better, you know, anything that builds community.
Not everyone's going to agree on everything, but there's some
group that you've grew on a lot of things with
and as a large overall people, you know, you've worked
with those different groups, and we've been segregated, we've been
under slavery, we've separated, we had our own cities that
have been sank. You know, We've done everything, and I
(26:53):
just know we're so resilient that we're going to keep
doing it. And I know now that since everyone knows
now that the government will perform a scoursed earth policy
literally to you know, stop our movement, it's now evident
that they can't use the smear anymore. You know, we've
known for decades that they've been doing this, but you
usually have to wait a decade or two to actually
(27:15):
get the evidence, and by that time, the prosecutors are gone,
the judges are going, the agents and informants are going.
But now you just had to wait less than three
years and all these people are still there. And that's
in every state. So I think I've been pushing something.
I think everyone since this is just me, Since the
government can't be transparent with what happened to us in
(27:36):
twenty twenty, it might be important for all of us
to start speaking because at that point, you know, you
can't just stop one or two people. You're going to
have to be looking at I think it was over
twenty million people that were protesting, you know, and the
government can't hide everything from all of us. We might
not be able to go back and stop what they did,
but I think we have a good chance of making
(27:58):
some kind of change if a lot of folk start
talking out absolutely, and that's a beautiful step forward, you know,
because I can only imagine, I mean, I've heard in Flint,
you know, that there were activists who ended up dead,
you know, And you know, I truly worry about some
(28:21):
of the bigger and urban cities that are already plagued
with gun violence because it seems that, you know, it
could be so easy, you know, to cover it up
as just a regular incident of you know, quote unquote
black on black violence, you know what I mean. So
(28:42):
I think it's so important that we use our voices
towards this, and we also reach for evidence, you know,
anything that we can show. So during the course of
this podcast, folks met an investigative journalist named Serice Castle
who who talked about her run ins with the Sheriff's
(29:04):
Department and how she used something called public Records request
or Public Records Act requests, so a PRA, and she
was able to see exactly what was happening, right, And
I understand that there's also like a process that people
can utilize to request like if they suspect that they've
(29:28):
been surveiled, that they can request like their FBI file
or their CIA file. But I don't have the full
details on that, but I wonder is that something that
you were able to do? Have you done that yet,
like to see like the extent of the surveillance. No,
(29:49):
outside of you know, my court documents, you just don't know.
I mean, you know, I look at the fact that
my car was stolen for free as so you just
don't know. And then as murricans, everything you do is
recorded anyway, every step you take, everything you do, they
know where you're at. So it's a little extra hard
on us. Yeah, I have no idea to the extent
(30:11):
which they did anything, but I am interested in getting
that foul though. Yeah, I mean, as much as we
can gather evidence. I think it's a part of the
protective factor. However, at the end of the day, if
they can run a scorched earth strategy, you know, and
(30:31):
get away with it, they will, you know. So tell
me more about the Alphabet Voice podcast. What can people expect? Uh,
you can expect the unexpected. It's imagine you know, I'm
not sure how anyone is on here. I'm thirty eight
years old, but when I was younger, I think Cinemax
is still around, like five o'clock in the morning. After
(30:52):
they got like all the you know, the thirty stuff
off of there, they had this one B movie that
comes on and it's like the weirdest B movie possible,
and you're like, this is too far fetched. Well that's
what I think about with this, But it's not too
far fetch. It's actually real. You know. Every episode is
going to introduce something new, something you weren't supposed to
(31:13):
hear before. Things you would have imagined, and outright government
corruption that's so blatant. But the way it was just
introduced into the protest and I think it gives a
good idea of probably what happened in every major city
in the country. And I hope it gives people the idea,
you know, educates them, you know, which was I knew
(31:33):
more about this, you know, before I was involved with it.
I think it can help educate a lot of people
on how to either protest or perform activism in the future.
It's very opening, eye opening. You'll be surprised every episode.
I can say that, and hopefully it gives a lot
of people across the country courage to just speak out.
(31:57):
The journalists owned this project is Trevor Aronson, but you know,
if you know anything, you know, I'd like to give
it to him. But there's always you know, reputable journalists
all over the country, and I think it's important that
all of our stories get out. You know, I'm just
one individual, you know, I'm happy that everybody within this
story has contributed. But this is just Deniver, It's not
(32:19):
even closest to the biggest city in the country. So
I really hope that The Alphabet Boys this first season,
in any upcoming seasons, gives people the courage to speak
out and you know, talk about any injustices that they
or anyone else is going through. Yeah, thank you for that. Man,
You're so right. I know that there are so many
(32:40):
stories that we have not heard in terms of people
surviving you know, this state violence, you know, and so
there should be like a place for people to be
directed to share this information. I'm sure it will be attacked,
but you know, at least it's a start, right And
(33:04):
then I'm also like really happy that you mentioned the
role that you know, journalists could play in amplifying the
voices of survivors of state violence. I mean, there has
been very little recourse for survivors of state violence. You know,
(33:25):
throughout the decades. We saw for many years the families
associated with like the move organization in Philadelphia not receive
any justice. We saw them, you know, gelled for surviving,
you know, with their life assaults from the state. And
(33:46):
then we you know, we continue to see the imprisonment
of when we Abu Jamal and the persecution of Asada Shakur,
you know, all incidents of state violence that remain unhealed, unaddressed, unrepaired.
So I just think it's so important for those who
(34:09):
are out there, and they already and I think it's
I do think it's really important that if you were
coming forward after receiving a sentence right in your entrapment case,
and can you actually tell us about what the sentence
was if it's okay, Yeah, I'm on probation for three years,
(34:33):
you know, because I'm a not violent criminal. Biody means
I have to ask to leave the state. I have
to call a urinary analysis phone number every morning. I
have to pay eleven dollars for each test and since
I did, you know, fail like a few marijuana tests.
I my stipulation now is you have to join a
(34:54):
drug treatment program, even though it's very odd. You know,
a lot of people think marijuana is legal, you know,
when you're own federal probation doesn't matter if you're in Denver,
Colorad or not. It's not legal. Wow. Yeah yeah, So
it's it's got to ly showed me and it doesn't
feel comfortable, and especially with the government knowing that the
public knows what they did, it's very scary. You know,
(35:19):
I can look at doing ten years in prison compared
to the informant, Michael Windecker, who I think just might
have done just over two years. It's terrifying. And it's
also slapping the face to all of us. When the courts,
you know, allowed this, it kind of said like, hey,
you all did this, and you know, went all this
big protests around the entire country, and try again next time.
(35:41):
That's what it feels like. So slap in the face.
And then you know the FBI their Twitter account there,
especially the Denver branch, they're putting up Black History Month things,
you know, and I'm like, really, you know, I'm like,
come on, now, you're just gonna smear it in a
little bit more than you already have. It's very disrespectful.
Something that boggles me is the fact that the Attorney
(36:03):
General and our elected officials here, they haven't even spoken
about it. We have a mayor oal race that's going
on in the elections April. Second, I haven't heard anyone
really talking about this. You would think that our local
and state officials, you know, would have this on their mind.
It's really weird, especially from our Attorney General, Phil Wiser.
(36:23):
I would think that as an elect official, as a
human being in general, with I found out someone set
up an assassination attempt on me and it wasn't real,
I'd fee a little more concerned, you know, I'd be
asking some questions like, hey, what's this about? But nothing.
So it makes me question how deep the government was in.
You just don't know now because he's not saying anything.
(36:47):
I'm going to ask you if you found out someone
set up a fa assassination attempt on you, when you
just have some questions at least just a few, of course,
I mean. And at the same time, yeah, I mean
I think it definitely his questions about you know, who
are all the players? You know? Yeah, and that's funny.
There's a Republican House member in North Carolina. I can't
(37:10):
remember his name, and I'll try to get that to
you later he mentioned this and said, you know, I'm
not sure what his intentions are, but he said, you know,
this was Entrappman, and it's wrong if it happens to
people on the Republican side or people on the left.
And then there's a Senator in Oregon named Ron Wyden.
And I could be wrong, but he's listened to some
of the podcasts and the information and he wants to
(37:31):
launch an investigation. Apparently he's talked about this, and it
was mentioned in the Guardian magazine in the article that
was released yesterday. So it's people know. But now it's like, okay, courts, well,
we know, politicians know there's this sub this committee within
the House, which let's say it's biased at best. You know,
(37:52):
it's looking for, you know, a weaponization by these agencies
like the FBI, CIA. And now that all this has happened,
and I'll still question where's the role of the courts
and all this? You know, they know this stuff is here,
and I look at people who might have been imprisoned
from Denver in twenty twenty or charges they took, and
(38:12):
now that all of this is out, all of our
cases should be reopened. Absolutely, I think that's a fair ask. Yeah,
it's you seeing a career criminal who has been a
law enforcement snitch for at least about twenty years or so.
And they also lied to local media the FBI. You know,
they told CBS and the other outlets here that they
(38:34):
foiled this plot. But the plot was never going through
because no one agreed to do it. So the fact
that you know, they're not even to be a question
on that, we just received no comment. It's absolutely rude.
It's just imagining. You know, you have someone who has
to plead guilty or not guilty and they just stand
there and they don't say anything. It's kind of what
(38:55):
the FBI is doing. Well, it's very interesting because I
think that that's often what happens is that there's no response.
You know, it's just an unresponsive just it's an unresponsive
entity right when it comes to accountability. And you mentioned
(39:18):
earlier like how we could have you know, a variety
of black power movements, right, well, there could be also
like FBI, CIA, black power movements. Okay, not exclusive to
black people, but just like how there are whistle blowers
(39:38):
at every level of government, Like you know, they could
definitely change things. Also, you know folks who were working
in the courts and they're seeing this pattern. Like because
at the end of the day, these systems, they're made
up of people. And I like to start each episode
with like, you know, welcoming good people. And and you know,
(40:00):
maybe not everybody thinks of themselves as a good person,
or maybe some people don't have the imagination to believe
there are any good people. But I hold space for
the fact that everybody has some good in them. And
so I'm speaking to the good in people. You know
that I don't care what job you do, I don't
(40:22):
care what you've done in the past. You know, you
have every opportunity every day to stand up for what's right.
And so if you are in the Denver court system
and you're hearing this, you have an opportunity to be
on the right side of history and the right side
of justice, and you can utilize the good in you
(40:45):
to make a change. I think, so support your local whistleblower.
You know, you know I totally believe it that it's
like I look at police officers, you know, I think
a lot of them go in want them to do
the right thing, and then a lot of the good
officers are they're going to get blackballed, they're labeled as snitches.
There's a case out in California. Even though I'm kind
(41:08):
of getting sidetracked here, but it was a detective I
believe named Houston Tipping and he was investigating some of
his you know, police colleagues for a gag rate that
apparently happened and you know, somehow in a training exercise
he was he died and it was with a lot
of these people who he was investigating. And I guess
(41:30):
the LAPD found, you know, no wrongdoing, or LA Sheriff's Department.
So it's good officers or people are officers who want
to do well, they are destroyed or they have to quit,
or they're labeled as bad they're getting written up. Because
we've seen so many police officers and you know, in
our lives wanting to speak out. But it's the fear,
(41:53):
you know, because you have to think. You know, I
guess a lot'st while a lot of them just quit
and I think that's the best thing to do if
the system is pushing you that way. But they probably
understand that, you know, they get worked over worse than us.
And then I have to look at, you know, the
racism within police departments, a lot of black folks who,
as we know, black costs thrown out for the white cops.
(42:14):
Look at those not gonna call them brothers, but those
men in Memphis who killed that brother. You know, they
were locked up quick, you know, but it took a
while for the murderers of Elijah McLain here in Colorado
to get locked up. It took over two years. But
you know, Jessica, you're black, doesn't really give you a
seat at the table either, That's correct. Yeah, I mean
(42:36):
we have we have so much work to do. And again,
it has to happen at every level, you know, every
every person has a stake in this, and it's so
easy to give into fear. I've always thought about the
fact that Cohen's help pro worked so well because it
(42:58):
gave rise to this dis trust, you know, and that
distrust could so easily stop all movements. You know, However,
as you've mentioned several times, you know, we are resilient people.
You know, despite all of the ways that we have
(43:20):
been attacked through state sanctioned actions, we continue to rise,
you know, like Maya Angelo, like straight up, you know.
And as we rise, though, and you know, because of poverty,
because of desperation, because of hopelessness, because of trauma, because
(43:41):
of internalized racism, we take these jobs that would continue
the oppression of our own folks. You know, it's so difficult,
it's so difficult to even imagine that you could be
the one to you know, make a change. But I
(44:03):
just want to reiterate that, you know, anybody could be
the one to make a change, just you have to.
You have to appeal to the good in yourself, like
you know, and and even when you're not, even when
you know you to'm fucked up, you could be that
(44:23):
rare person that could you know, step up and be
accountable to your fuck ups. Like even in this situation,
we could have the FBI be accountable to their fuck up.
You know. Yeah, we pay taxes, you know, even like
I said, even people who weren't even for the BLN move,
(44:44):
I look at like this, you might have been in
a red state, you know, your whole house could be
decked out with Trump. You know, go do what you
gotta do. You know, it's all you. But you could
say you were against the movement, but you did support it.
Your tax money supported the burning down and destruction in
the cities that you'll probably never go to. You know,
these are very hardcore Trump supporters, even conservatives moderate people either. Anyway,
(45:08):
then that money, your tax money, was used to censor
you from knowing about it, and then your tax money
was used to rebuild these cities that you probably won't
even live in. And now your tax money's been used
to just say, hey, no comment. And the thing is,
even if you were not for the movement, you supported it.
And I think, you know, conservatives need to realize the
ones that weren't for our movement. Hey, your government screwed
(45:31):
you too. They took your cash, they took your bread.
And I've seen a lot of conservatives on Twitter You're like, yeah,
this is not right, you know, because now we're seeing
both sides, black people, white people, left right and everything
in the middle say hey, we're not liking the FBI anymore.
And I think we all need to just press them now,
you know, because if those right wing people are doing
(45:52):
it no matter what their intentions are. People on the
left and black people in particular, should be pressing them
as well. You know, from every single angle, this is
like it's like a spider web. You know. You can
take one a little like strand off, you know, but
it's not going to do anything because if you go
to another strand, the spiders is going to come there,
put it back together, and come catchy. So if you
(46:12):
had this coming from every angle, that can probably get
a lot more done than you know, a lot of
people are saying, hey, you know, they're going to hate
them for their reasons. They're like, no, no, we don't
like them either, So put the pressure there. No, absolutely,
And you briefly touched on the situation in Memphis. I
do want to just give love and condolences to the
(46:37):
family and loved ones of Tyree Nichols. We're going to
take a short break to hear from our sponsors as
(47:07):
we hear what ZEB has run down to us. I
just hope that folks are taking it in and taking
notes and if they have the resources, if they're in
position to do so, especially like any investigative journalists out there,
(47:28):
any lawyers you know, really consider taking up this cause,
you know, really consider doing an audit of the court
cases that came out of those twenty twenty protests and
really get some of this stuff going. And definitely listen
(47:48):
to the Alphabet Boys podcast and you can get a
podcast anywhere you get podcasts, right, yeah, absolutely so. Are
there any practices that you do for like your own sanity,
your own piece, your own healing. Oh yeah. A month
(48:11):
and a half before I was picked up, I started
partaking in a Brazilian jiu jitsu. I love grappling. You know,
I'm okay with striking, you know, I'm all right, But
I love the act of grappling. It's no matter what
you're going through in life, you know, when you have
to just sit there and completely focused because you can't
be thinking about, like, man, you know what am I
(48:32):
going to eat tonight? When your arm is like you
gonna get caught in an arm bar or something, it's
a I love grappling. When I started, I think I
was about two hundred and sixty pounds and I was
having some severe health issues and it will start to
add up, and oh man, the first week I just figured,
you know, I've got this big gee on this kimono
type thing, and I'm like, oh man, I'm two hundred
(48:53):
and sixty pounds. I can just lay on this person.
And you know, I got pretzeled all week, you know.
You know, it was very, very humbling. And at the
end of the week, you know, I started on June eleven,
and I think by the sixteenth or somewhere around there,
at the end of the week, I'm looking in the
mirror and I'm scratched up all over and everything, you know,
(49:14):
because I've been getting beat up by people like one
hundred pounds less than me or even more. And I
looked in the mirror and I say, yeah, you can't
quit this. It's you know, I person, you know, struggled
with who I am at times. You know, a lot
of times throughout my life, lacked a lot of confidence.
But jiu jitsu, wrestling, you know, a little bit of judo.
(49:35):
It's been the thing that's gotten me through all this.
You know, a great support system with friends and loved ones.
Therapy most of us means to be in it, you know,
most people in general. But you know, being on that mat,
you know, having to, as Wu Tang say, to protect
your neck, you know, it's very humbling. I've only been
doing it for about a year and a half, but
(49:55):
you know you're going to tap out, and that's such
a humbling experience knowing that some one could, you know,
a partner could just be angry it's something and finish it,
you know. But it's like, hey, we made a mistake,
Let's try it again, Let's roll it through again. This
is what I did, this is how we did this.
This is how you prevent this, and you know, just
keep getting better. And it's the constant challenge, the pressure
(50:17):
of having someone much bigger than you on your back
or on your chest, and you have to learn not
to panic, you know, when you're in that situation. It
helped me so much with all of this that I've
been through. It makes me feel like a more positive
masculine person, you know, who wants to use that for
the good of more people, a more positive person to myself. Yeah,
(50:41):
anybody out there, you know, if you're interested in a
kind of martial art, you know, give some grappling a chance,
but experience the pressure. It really helps out with other
things in life. Very beautiful. Thank you so much for
joining us for survivors here and yeah, did you have
some last well, you asked me. So what do you
(51:06):
do to keep your sanity in this courage world? Oh? Man,
there's a lot of things I do. I do tend
to meditate, I tend to write. I really really love music,
so I use music in my daily life to move
me forward. So thank you for asking well, thanks for
(51:29):
asking me, Thanks for having me on. And love you
and to everybody in your life, you know you love
them too. Thank you, thank you, and you know ditto.
In closing, we have come to the end of this
season and I just want to take the time to
(51:52):
express so much gratitude to all of you that have
listened in to the Survivor's Hill podcast. To those of
you who have reached out to me, you are amazing
and I appreciate you taking the time to share your
stories and ideas. It's been an incredible journey so far,
and I really want to thank the Next Up Initiative
(52:14):
for giving me a chance to share the important stories
from the trenches of the new Survivor's movement. I also
want to send a budget of love to all those
who made the show possible, like my Dovaz producers, all
the editors, and certainly all of the amazing guests. If
(52:36):
you have been moved by the Survivor's Heel podcast, please
join the movement and also like, share, and comment on
any and every platform that you listen in with and
reach out. You can reach me on ig at Survivor's
Heel and you can also visit the website at Survivor's
(52:59):
Hill com for bonus content, resources, and more. It's been
such a pleasure to have this opportunity, and if you
want more of this, you gotta let me know. Lastly,
when I tell y'all, getting to this moment has been
a crazy, wild, sometimes dark and scary ride. I'm holding
(53:22):
no water, but I've learned so much and grown so much.
I wouldn't change a minute of it. The things that
do need changing, though, we're working on them, and I'm
inviting you all, wherever you are good people to not
only survive this rugged world, but to heal as well.
(53:45):
Peace disclaimer. My views, beliefs, and opinions are my own
and do not necessarily refer reflect the views of my guest,
resource organizations or sources shared. Last thing. Every day we
(54:17):
survive is a new chance to see killing. Peace to
your journey, good people as Shay
Host
Oya L. Sherrills
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