September 2, 2020 • 35 mins
The beginning of a three-part dive into one of Phil’s most personal cases.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
If you're going to place your left hand on the
Bible and raise your right hand, and please repeat after
me and I do solemnly swear, then titled action find
the defendant guilty of the prime. It makes no sense,
it doesn't fit. If it doesn't fit, you must aquit.
We all took the same of office. We're all bound
(00:23):
by that common commitment to support and defend the Constitution,
to bear true faith in allegiance to the same that
you faithfully discharge the duties of our office. Do you
solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are about
to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth. From Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Radio,
this is sworn. I'm your host, Philip Holloway. I don't
(00:58):
even want to you see me. You know, I feel
very guarded about the whole situation. First of all, you
have to remember, for so many years, like I couldn't
even talk about it and not even have my child,
you know, I had to just kind of keep everything
so internalized that to some degree it's really hard to
talk about it. She feels like I should because I
(01:21):
don't think people realize that this could happen to them,
you know, because if you talk to people, they're just
you know, like, oh, well they must have done something,
you know, because that doesn't happen to normal people, Like
that would never happen to me. Sometimes it doesn't even
feel like it happened to us. It's like in another
dimension or something like you can't even like retreat it
(01:43):
as an actual like thing. And it's like I don't
know about for her, but for me after that night,
my whole life before then, it feels like a dream,
Like I can't even access the person that I was, feelings,
I had, the thoughts I have about really anything. It's
(02:04):
like it walked behind like do you know what I mean.
I don't know how to describe it anymore than that,
you know, something horrible happening and I'm a phone call
for help and I didn't receive help. Hi everyone, my
name is Christina and I'm the lead producer on this
(02:26):
season of Sworn. This episode is the first in a
three part series, a sort of culminating case study for
the topics we've covered so far this season of Sworn.
We divided most of the episodes into topics instead of cases,
and looked at some of the problems and technicalities and
the legal system, many of which come into play in
this case. I really encourage you to take a listen
(02:49):
through the first part of this season to learn more
about the factors that we'll get into in these next
three episodes. The reason you're hearing my voice right now
instead of Phil's is that Phil is actually one of
our subjects in this case. In two thousand and nine,
Phil took on a case that would turn into one
of the biggest and most impactful in his career as
a defense attorney. When we were planning this season, talking
(03:12):
about problems with the justice system, he recommended we covered
this case right away. But since he was so close
to it being her defense attorney, we decided I would
take the lead and see what I could find out
about how the case impacted her, her family, and Phil himself.
So for the next three episodes, we're going to dive
into the details of that case, showing you what happened
(03:34):
from start to finish. The woman feel defended graciously agreed
to share her story with us, but for the sake
of her privacy and her children's privacy, we've changed her
voice and removed any identifying information that was her at
the beginning of the episode, and she talked about making
a call to get help the night of the incident.
(03:55):
She called one and things started to spiral from there.
I'd like to play you some of that nine one
one call now. We've edited it for clarity and privacy,
but I want to warn you it's pretty graphic. I'm
kind of hard to listen to. I haven't argue with
(04:17):
my husband. We were in my stepson's room and he
was listening to me. He was like, we're doing there,
and we were arguing, how are you coining his gun
at me? I tried to push it away from him,
and he said, you don't want to do that. And
the next thing I know, then did you hear it
go off? What did you hear the gun go off? Husband?
(04:43):
He's making wise, he's making noise. Yes, I think it's
been more off this flood everywhere. He was trained to
shoot me and I was fighting with the gun and
he said, you didn't want to do that, and then
the gun went off and the next thing I know,
my husband has covered its blood. So hurry, Okay. Do
you think this was accidentally? Do you think he essentially
shot himself? I don't know. I note that she was
(05:07):
angry trump the door. Oh my kissing. We were both
drinking and we were talking, and I was talking on
the phone with my friend and he was in this
room and he was listening. Did YouTube puns it? And
I can't he planing from his head, which is sleep. Hurry,
and they're on the way. I just need to let
(05:28):
them know what's going on. Okay. The important thing is
just to keep perfect. It's everywhere. And my my eleven
year old daughter came to the door and she said,
as everything okay, and I closed the door unfured with sleep. Hurry,
okay's on the scene right now, okay, okay. Oh do
you hear the ambulance coming. The ambulance is coming, bye,
(05:53):
good bye, to bye. Class. I sat down with Phil's
client and two of her children in Phil's office to
hear about this horrific experience. You might hear some people
walking around in the background. One last note on privacy.
We've beaped out her husband's name, the man who died.
(06:15):
Is there something from the night of the incident that
stands out the most? Yes, was I don't know the word.
I don't want to say. Calm but he was very agreeable.
He was very just whatever, just kind of agreeable. Like,
(06:38):
for instance, I had to go to the library to
get their summer reading because I hadn't finished getting them
their summer reading and school wasn't getting ready to start,
and I had to go to the grocery store. So
I had all this stuff I had to do, and
I had to go and pick up my paycheck, and
so I was leaving the house with the kids to
go pick up her and stuff. And I was sitting
on the living room floor with the Monopoly board game out,
(06:59):
and he was making the kids complain monopoly with them,
which wasn't unusual except for the fact that he was
adamant that night one of the kids won, or more
likely her husband let them win. Nobody ever beat Monopoly,
like it was like unheard of because he cheated terribly,
(07:21):
Like he just he didn't beat your dad of Monopoly,
like he'd find a way to win. And so I
was laughing, and it was like everything was kind of cool,
you know, But he was just there was like a
just like an okay, nous, like he wasn't agitated. There
was like nothing weird, which was almost a little bit abnormal,
(07:41):
you know, not that he was you know, it wasn't
a jerk or anything, but he just wasn't very chill.
And then um, he came to the back door and
he said, can you drive me to the quick trip?
And I said, well, I had a glass of wine,
I'm not going to drive, and he's said, oh, okay,
(08:02):
and he closed the door. So then I saw the
headlights moving out of the driveway, which made me mad
because I used to repeatedly hide car keys from him
so that he wouldn't drink and drive because he went
did tend to be somewhat self destructive. And then he
was in the room and the door was locked because
it locked him in there, and I knocked on the
(08:25):
door and I said, do you want to come and
sit with me because I'm gonna go to bed soon
and he was like yeah, I'll be right out, and
I was like okay, and I went and I checked
my email, knocked on the door again. He unlocked the
door and I walked in and he was listening to
music and I saw the gun on the on the
(08:46):
desk and it wasn't supposed to be in the house.
I was like, what is that doing in the house.
I think I even made a joke because the reason
I went over to the computer was that if he
didn't hurry up and come outside, that I was going
to post songs on his YouTube that he hate it,
like joking around, you know. I saw the gun and
then he picked it up and he did point it
(09:07):
at me. I tried to get it away from him,
and he said, you don't want to do that now.
I think the police tried to turn that into like
a threatening thing, but it was more like a you
don't want to piss me off kind of a tone
to it, and I let go. I sat down on
what I remember to be a table like, and I
(09:29):
remember sitting down and I remember covering my face because
I was like, oh God, he's going to kill me,
because I thought I had set him off to that point.
I heard a clicking noise and I moved my hands
and he had the gun pointed to his head. So
I jumped up and I tried to pull it away
(09:49):
from him, and I heard a pop. I didn't even
realize what had happened at first. I tried to pick
him up and he didn't move, and then I was
pulling on his arm and there was blood, and apparently
my screaming is what woke up some if not all
of them, I don't really know. And I remember running
(10:11):
around the house trying to find a phone and I
called nine one. She she came in at some point
and I told her to go away and everybody to
stay out because they didn't want them to see their father.
They told me they were going to take me to
the hospital. They took him. Finally they came. I felt
like an eternity, and they told me that they were
(10:31):
going to take me to the hospital. Then they took
me in a police car and they took me to
the station, which I didn't understand that. They told me
they would take me the hospital after and then they
wanted to talk to me, and um It had some
issues with the law throughout his life, and he always
(10:51):
told me never to talk to the police, and so honestly,
I was afraid that he was going to get in trouble.
So when they asked me what happened, I was like, well,
it's not gonna want me to talk to them, you know.
Do you remember what kind of questions the police ask you.
I don't remember a lot of questions. I remember asking
(11:14):
them questions more. I remember asking them where was when
they were going to take me, but I don't really
remember a lot of questions. But I also told them
I didn't want to answer any questions because in that
light of that situation, what could I tell the police
that could harm my husband? Because for all I knew
he was coming home in a wheelchair. I have no
(11:37):
idea at this point the extent of how my husband is.
I know nothing, And so I was like, I really
feel like I shouldn't talk to you, and I think
I may have said without a lawyer or something like that,
and really what I wanted to talk to was my
father in law. That made them angry. And then they left,
(11:59):
and then they came back and they told me that
it was gone, and then they told me that they
were going to arrest me, and they well, they took
a bunch of naked pictures of me first, which was bizarre,
which I can't even remember if that was first or after,
but they did take pictures of me, and I didn't understand.
(12:24):
I didn't understand like I thought I was supposed to
go to the hospital. Everything just kind of happened, and
then they took me into this room, and I just
don't even like the whole thing feels like a dream state.
I don't even know what time of day it was,
Like the whole day is just like bizarre fog. I
(12:47):
just feel like I was in shock, Like I don't
even feel like like you don't feel your legs. You're
walking and you're just like in sounds feel like they're
in another world, like it's not real, Like you can't
even wrap your brain around what's happening. I think they
(13:07):
said something like you're under arrest, and I think I
said for what, and they said murder. I mean, when
they came and said that they were charging me like
that was so shocking to me because I had been
trying to save him for the minute. I tried to
take the gun from him. From years before, I have
(13:27):
hit the gun from him, I hit car keys from him.
I poured five dollars worth of pharmaceuticals down my garbage disposal.
I poured bottles of jim Beam off my patio. I mean,
I spent years keeping this man alive. For that and
for me, that's what I did. And then calling with
(13:47):
an ambulance, I thought they were going to come and
help him. I just doubted that I was there. I
was there, and I wasn't going to leave him, didn't.
They took him from me, dine alone. We died without
(14:11):
me and I wasn't there, and just everything from them
from the day I met him un till the day
I lost him, I was keeping him alive. Like it
(14:33):
was just like what, like are you insane? And like
you can see in that situation when somebody says, what happened,
like so many things happened, You're like, I can't really
answer that question. I guess from what I understand from
(14:53):
what Phil told me that I was giving conflicting answers
and that I was standing and I was sitting where
he was sitting or he was standing, and we were fighting,
but we weren't fighting. Well, like all of those things
are true. And then it was like somehow, and I
know this is sound weird, but it's almost like didn't
matter any more. It was more like a witch hunt
(15:14):
for me. They took me and I think they were
laughing at me that if I remember correctly, because they
had me in like paper suits and stuff because they
had taken all my clothes. But I'm just talking about
the police station, like I said, it's like pretty voggy.
I had no shoes, and I remember standing outside of
(15:37):
the police car barefoot when they were bringing me to
the jail. And then they took me in and then they,
I guess what they called process me. They put me
in a room and I think I called my father
in law and I couldn't call my dad because he
was a long distance. They took me to the infirmary
and they put me in a room and it was flooded,
(15:57):
because I guess that then, I'm guessing that the inmates
do it, but I don't know. But they stuffed the
toilets until they overflow, and then they give you a
pad to sleep on, and they put you in a
sort of straight jacket sort of thing. It's like a
padded thing that you can wear. I was told later
at some point it was suicide watch. I mean there
(16:18):
was a girl in there that was singing to her baby.
I mean it was what I would imagine a psych
word when would be like. Then they took me out
of there, and then they took me and they put
me in the regular what they called general population. The
girls were really nice to me in there. I was,
(16:39):
you know, not never been to jail before. I didn't
know what they were going to be like, and I
pretty much just went in my cot They were just
really they were really nice to me. They were I mean,
I can't say anything. I guess I should say that
the experience was horrifying. The experience of losing my family
was horrifying. Jail was were They were nice women. A
(17:01):
lot of them were broken women that had been through
some I'm sure difficult trials in their life, you know,
but they were they were trained to me. My dad
came and asked me what to do, and I said
to make sure that they were safe. And then he
sent me a couple of lawyers, and I chose Phil.
I think I understand that it was over twenty one
(17:21):
days that I was in jail. I think that's what
they told me. I can't I can't remember. I'm sorry.
(17:46):
Like I mentioned, Phil was brought on as her defense
attorney early on, while she was still in jail. In
a series of interviews, I sat down with him and
his staff to find out what her case looked like
from the professionals point of view. We were all own
problems and short on time, and we needed to go
ahead and get her into court. We needed to get
a hearing, uh an evidentury hearing. We needed to find
(18:07):
out why the police we're saying that she was guilty
of murder, so we needed to test their evidence, if
you will. We needed to get our heads wrapped around
what the hell is going over their case? Why did
they charge her with murder so quickly? We had to
file motions to get her into court. We also were
interested in trying to get her out on bail, and
we knew going into this that was a long shot.
(18:28):
Quite frankly, I was not expecting to ever get her out,
at least not on bond, but we did. In my opinion,
they charged her so quickly because they misinterpreted the evidence
that they found at the scene. You have two people
and there's some type of an altercation and there's a
gun involved. One person gets shot and dies. Police sometimes
(18:53):
jump to conclusions and they get tunnel vision, and I
think that's what they did here. They looked at this
and they said, well, you know there was a gun,
somebody's dead, and you know she's alive. Well, she must
have killed him. This happened in close quarters, right, and
she's not who you might expect would prevail in a
physical altercation against him, and they I think misinterpreted the
(19:15):
crime scene a little bit and felt like they were
not close enough together when this altercation took place, that
maybe she had to be sort of across the room.
But there was an initial police and e m S
response that came in pretty quickly and changed some things around.
By the time investigators got there to really try to
truly process the scene, the gun that was involved had
(19:38):
been moved, of course, there was nobody. He had gone
off to the hospital for emergency room treatment, and so
the scene had been manipulated, not not in any malicious way,
but it had been changed. It was not the way
that it existed, you know, when it was just her there,
when she's on the phone with nine one one. It
(19:58):
was changed. So I think they misinterpreted things. They jumped
to some conclusions, I think, and then they built their
case around their misperceptions. I think that's the most charitable
way I could put it. They had a victim and
there was a gunshot entry wound on his left palm.
(20:21):
There was an exit wound out the back of his
left hand, something you should ask Chris Robinson about. You
might remember Chris Robinson from our earlier episode this season
on bite marks and forensic science. In that episode, he
went into the details of his work as a forensic consultant,
(20:42):
including analyzing ballistics and gunshot residue, both of which come
up in this case. So when Phil started assembling the defense,
he brought Chris on to evaluate the crime scene and
help determine whether or not his client's story of struggle
and self defense was likely or even possible. I believe
(21:02):
the question was the way that the individual was shot,
how close the range of fire was, the angle of
trajectory through the body of the bullet. I believe it
went through his hand and then into his face. So
as it went through his hand, there was stippling on
the hand a little bit, which is the bruising of
(21:24):
the skin about the unburned gunpowder particles, and then he
went through the hand and as it fragmented, that was
stippling all over his face. Some of that was pseudo
stippling from the bones that went through the hand. Some
of that could have been powder because it was very
close to his face at the time, but the pictures
(21:44):
he was right there. It was eviden I said that
the gun is is up against the handles as you
see it right through the hand, and and Philip was
He's looked at me and he's like, are you serious,
it's right there. Look, it's just still a tear. Stell
eight is the star shaped pattern. It's just a star
shaped pattern from the contact type of gunshot wing that's
(22:07):
caused by gas pressure. Bullets don't rip bullets punched holes.
When you see stella tearing, that's an indication that most
likely it was a contact shot, which means the muzzle
of the gun was directly up against the hand the skin.
It was an interesting case. The end of the day.
(22:27):
Bill's question was, do you think it could have been
an accident? Well, absolutely, if you're strugging over the weapon.
You see, we showed that his hand was was right
on the gun, very close to the gun, and that
there could have definitely been a struggle over the gun.
We ran through it several dozen times. But he said,
(22:47):
show me how how does the hand get in front
of his face like it was? How does all this happens? It? Well,
it broke the bombs as it went through and then
the it went into the face and the face had
he was severe trauma. But she could tell all these things,
and the more went over it, Philip was like, totally,
I mean, I can totally see where it was a
(23:09):
self defense kind of issue. The medical examiner told prosecutors
that Phil's client had to have been far away and
shot her husband from across the room. But what Chris
found was the exact opposite the stippling pattern, meaning how
the gunshot residue hit his body, as well as the
star shaped bullet entry wound proved that it was a
(23:30):
shot where the gun was pressed against the skin. This
describes what Phil's client told police and the nine one
one operator. She and her husband struggled up close before
the gun went off. The bottom line is that there
was a struggle for control of a gun. So she
(23:53):
walks in the room where he was and there's this gun,
and you know, she's not a gun person, doesn't like gun.
In fact, took a long time for me to be
able to even try to reconstruct this using an unloaded weapon,
and we did that eventually. We we talked about it
with Chris, and Chris and I were able to piece
it all together. Once we got some photographs and some
(24:14):
other evidence from the prosecutors, we were able to try
to go in and test what she said on the
nine one one call. Could these things have actually happened?
If he's right handed and he's holding a gun and
they're fighting over control of it, Is it possible for
what she said to the nine one one operator you know,
(24:36):
to have happened, and lo and behold it was in fact,
if if you're holding this particular gun and it was
a glaw and you've got your finger on the trigger
and the person that you're pointing it at reaches out,
which would be the natural thing to do is to
reach out and sort of push it back or whatever.
I remember back in my days in the police academy,
(24:56):
we actually trained for how do you what do you
do as somebody's close to you and they in a
gun at you. Well, one of the first things that
you can do, if it's your revolver, you just take
your your hand and you clamp down over the top
of the gun and you grab the cylinder of the
revolver and they can't pull the trigger and it won't fire.
So that's what you do with the revolver. But with
an automatic weapon or in this case, a semi automatic handgun,
the best thing to do defensively is to grab the
(25:18):
end of the weapon, the barrel, the business in and
point it in another direction so that if they do
pull the trigger, it's not coming right at you. That's
sort of the instinctual thing that somebody's going to do.
They're gonna grab the end of that weapon and they're
gonna try to push one way or the other. And
if the person who's holding that gun, if their finger
is on the trigger, unless they move their finger out
(25:41):
of the trigger, if you rotate the business into that
gun just a few degrees either side, left or right,
the finger is going to contract and your hand is
gonna cause your your trigger, your trigger finger basically to
pull the trigger, even though it's an involuntary movement. Chris
and I went through this, and we we tested this scenario,
(26:03):
and we never practiced this with a live round, of course,
but using an unloaded glock, you can do it. I've
got one here, and you can hear the click if
you want to hear it, so you can hear it's
it's a real gun. It's unloaded, there's nothing in the chamber.
I'm not pointing it anybody, but I'm gonna hold it
out with my arm extended like I'm pointing it at someone.
And then what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna take
(26:24):
my left hand, you push this barrel. What you'll hear
is and that's once I took the end of the
weapon and I basically just pushed the barrel to to
the to the side. It caused my trigger finger to click.
(26:45):
So we knew that it was plausible, if not probable,
that she was telling the truth. This is something that
nobody ever really thought about. They just said, well, she
said he was pointing at it himself. He was pointing
in at her. He was waving around. You know, she
she can't get make up her mind what the truth is,
so she must be guilty. But the truth is all
those things were probably happening. The medical examiner came up
(27:10):
with some cookie theory that she must have been across
the room because there was no stipling on his hand,
and he totally ignored the fact that it was still
eight entrance. When I knew the medical examiner's uh conclusions
were bullshit, and I knew I was gonna have to
prove it. But I was able to figure out that
(27:33):
he had had some problems. He was actually sanctioned by
the state his medical license. I don't think it was suspended,
but it I think he went into a probationary status
because he was disciplined for, you know, doing a bunch
of sloppy autopsies a number of years before this, and
he had entered into an agreement where they wouldn't suspend
his medical license, but he had to do a bunch
(27:53):
of autopsies under some kind of supervision and in a
probationary sort of a status. So I knew that this
guy had problems, and I knew that I'd known it
about it for a long time. And when I saw
his bizarre conclusions, I thought to myself, you know, he
may very well be at it again, and and I
(28:14):
need to get a sharp set of medical eyes on this.
So we we reached out to a doctor who used
to be the chief medical examiner for the state of Kentucky.
At the end of the day, he confirmed and I'm
gonna read part of his report. He says, a tighter
press contact gunshot wound will produce the exact same skin
(28:37):
findings and facial markings as seen in this case. The
only means to prove or disprove a tight contact wound
is a careful dissection of the deeper injuries in the
wound track. This was not done. This death is considered
by me to be an undetermined manner of death. I
(28:59):
favor accident as the results of a struggle between the
two people over control of the weapon. There is no
proof of homicide. This told me that all along everything
that I had thought and believed about this case, I
felt vindicated personally, but that didn't do her a hell
of a lot of good. She was still charged with murder.
(29:20):
I knew we were on the right path, at least
towards getting to the truth. Unfortunately, it took a long
long time and a lot of money and some good
help from from experts to to get to the truth.
We shouldn't be the ones having to prove this. The
police should have gotten this riot, but they didn't. This
(29:58):
is Caitlyn Phil's former are illegal. She worked with still
on all aspects of this case. I was first paralegal
for about four years. I have since moved to North
Georgia and I am no longer working in law. I'm
an optician now, but that probably doesn't matter, you know,
with this being five years ago. My mind is not
(30:18):
as crystal clear as when everything was happening, So I
would also just like to stay you know, I don't
want to mislead and I don't want to missay anything,
but you no, my my memories have might have changed
just a little bit. So he took on her case
a little bit before I got there, So it was
probably nine months nine to twelve months underway when I
(30:42):
joined Phil. You know, that was the biggest thing he
had going at the time, so I immediately was brought
to speed. It was very important. It carried a lot
of weight and at least to me, it was clear
that she did not need to be charged criminally for anything.
I know. He was very heavily invested through work but
(31:06):
also emotionally, and it was a very big time in
both of our lives because he had this in front
of him where she was potentially faced with a very
I mean it was a very big charge. She could
spend her life in prison, and he was just faced
with making sure that didn't happen, because we knew that
didn't need to happen. As far as I know, I
(31:27):
had access to everything. If Phil had access to it,
I had access to it. So I knew she wasn't
criminally guilty because I knew about her past in her
relationship with him. Um, and I knew the story, and
I knew the evidence. You know, I learned so much
about stifling and how bone fragments fracture when gunshots come
in at certain angles. Every single piece of direct, circumstantial,
(31:50):
any type of evidence just pointed to I mean, it
wasn't her. She didn't she didn't do it. She was
sending herself. I actually was going through discovery gathering, compiling
things for Phil and stumbled upon the autopsy photos unexpectedly.
Once it was shocking, But then once I saw it,
(32:11):
you know, and took a second and realize, okay, this
is what I'm looking at it, really it was intriguing.
H I mean, just everything pointed to the fact that
she was not criminally responsible for anything. I met her
and her four children. Um, I met her parents also.
I mean, I'll never forget any of them. They're really
great people there. She especially, It's just the type of
(32:33):
person you don't forget. I say, I had friends, you know,
I was newly out of college at the time. Now,
her friends asked me, how can you defend criminals, and
my mind always went to her. She isn't a criminal,
but she's being charge like one. And the law can
be very black and white sometimes, and you need criminal
(32:56):
defense attorneys to protect people from being railroaded by the state.
People need protecting from that, and she was a perfect
example of someone who was not guilty, who could be
charged with something, but it is not guilty of a crime.
(33:18):
Next time on Sworn, there was a laundry list of
churches did they offered the plea? And I think that
it was volunteering manslaughter. At first I didn't want the plea.
I was like, no, I'm not taking a police I
was furious, dude that he told me about the Alfred plea.
(33:41):
Sworn is a production of Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Radio.
Our lead producer is Christina Dana. Executive producers are Payne
Lindsay and Donald Albright for Tenderfoot TV, Matt Frederick and
Alex Williams for I Heart Radio, and myself Philip Holloway.
Additional production by Trevor Young, Mason Lindsay, Mike Rooney, Jamie Albright,
(34:05):
and Halle Beadall. Original music and sound designed by Makeup
and vanity set. Our theme song is Blood in the
Water by Layup. Show art and design is by Trevor Eisler,
editing by Christina Dana, mixing and mastering by Mike Rooney
and Cooper Skinner. Special thanks to the team at I
Heart Radio from u t a or In Rosenbaum and
(34:29):
Grace Royer, Ryan Nord and Matthew Papa from the Nord Group,
Back Media and Marketing, and Station sixteen. I'd also like
to extend a very personal and special thanks to all
of our contributors and guests who have helped to make
all of these episodes possible. You can find Sworn on Facebook, Twitter,
(34:50):
and Instagram at Sworn podcast and follow me your host,
Philip Halloway on Twitter at phil Holloway e s Q.
Our website is sworn podcast dot com, and you can
check out other Tenderfoot TV podcasts at www dot tenderfoot
dot tv. If you have questions or comments, you can
(35:11):
email us at Sworn at tenderfoot dot tv or leave
us a voicemail at four zero four for one zero
zero four one. As always, thanks for listening.
If you're going to place your left hand on the
Bible and raise your right hand, and please repeat after
me and I do solemnly swear, then titled action find
the defendant guilty of the prime. It makes no sense,
it doesn't fit. If it doesn't fit, you must aquit.
We all took the same of office. We're all bound
(00:23):
by that common commitment to support and defend the Constitution,
to bear true faith in allegiance to the same that
you faithfully discharge the duties of our office. Do you
solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are about
to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth. From Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Radio,
this is sworn. I'm your host, Philip Holloway. I don't
(00:58):
even want to you see me. You know, I feel
very guarded about the whole situation. First of all, you
have to remember, for so many years, like I couldn't
even talk about it and not even have my child,
you know, I had to just kind of keep everything
so internalized that to some degree it's really hard to
talk about it. She feels like I should because I
(01:21):
don't think people realize that this could happen to them,
you know, because if you talk to people, they're just
you know, like, oh, well they must have done something,
you know, because that doesn't happen to normal people, Like
that would never happen to me. Sometimes it doesn't even
feel like it happened to us. It's like in another
dimension or something like you can't even like retreat it
(01:43):
as an actual like thing. And it's like I don't
know about for her, but for me after that night,
my whole life before then, it feels like a dream,
Like I can't even access the person that I was, feelings,
I had, the thoughts I have about really anything. It's
(02:04):
like it walked behind like do you know what I mean.
I don't know how to describe it anymore than that,
you know, something horrible happening and I'm a phone call
for help and I didn't receive help. Hi everyone, my
name is Christina and I'm the lead producer on this
(02:26):
season of Sworn. This episode is the first in a
three part series, a sort of culminating case study for
the topics we've covered so far this season of Sworn.
We divided most of the episodes into topics instead of cases,
and looked at some of the problems and technicalities and
the legal system, many of which come into play in
this case. I really encourage you to take a listen
(02:49):
through the first part of this season to learn more
about the factors that we'll get into in these next
three episodes. The reason you're hearing my voice right now
instead of Phil's is that Phil is actually one of
our subjects in this case. In two thousand and nine,
Phil took on a case that would turn into one
of the biggest and most impactful in his career as
a defense attorney. When we were planning this season, talking
(03:12):
about problems with the justice system, he recommended we covered
this case right away. But since he was so close
to it being her defense attorney, we decided I would
take the lead and see what I could find out
about how the case impacted her, her family, and Phil himself.
So for the next three episodes, we're going to dive
into the details of that case, showing you what happened
(03:34):
from start to finish. The woman feel defended graciously agreed
to share her story with us, but for the sake
of her privacy and her children's privacy, we've changed her
voice and removed any identifying information that was her at
the beginning of the episode, and she talked about making
a call to get help the night of the incident.
(03:55):
She called one and things started to spiral from there.
I'd like to play you some of that nine one
one call now. We've edited it for clarity and privacy,
but I want to warn you it's pretty graphic. I'm
kind of hard to listen to. I haven't argue with
(04:17):
my husband. We were in my stepson's room and he
was listening to me. He was like, we're doing there,
and we were arguing, how are you coining his gun
at me? I tried to push it away from him,
and he said, you don't want to do that. And
the next thing I know, then did you hear it
go off? What did you hear the gun go off? Husband?
(04:43):
He's making wise, he's making noise. Yes, I think it's
been more off this flood everywhere. He was trained to
shoot me and I was fighting with the gun and
he said, you didn't want to do that, and then
the gun went off and the next thing I know,
my husband has covered its blood. So hurry, Okay. Do
you think this was accidentally? Do you think he essentially
shot himself? I don't know. I note that she was
(05:07):
angry trump the door. Oh my kissing. We were both
drinking and we were talking, and I was talking on
the phone with my friend and he was in this
room and he was listening. Did YouTube puns it? And
I can't he planing from his head, which is sleep. Hurry,
and they're on the way. I just need to let
(05:28):
them know what's going on. Okay. The important thing is
just to keep perfect. It's everywhere. And my my eleven
year old daughter came to the door and she said,
as everything okay, and I closed the door unfured with sleep. Hurry,
okay's on the scene right now, okay, okay. Oh do
you hear the ambulance coming. The ambulance is coming, bye,
(05:53):
good bye, to bye. Class. I sat down with Phil's
client and two of her children in Phil's office to
hear about this horrific experience. You might hear some people
walking around in the background. One last note on privacy.
We've beaped out her husband's name, the man who died.
(06:15):
Is there something from the night of the incident that
stands out the most? Yes, was I don't know the word.
I don't want to say. Calm but he was very agreeable.
He was very just whatever, just kind of agreeable. Like,
(06:38):
for instance, I had to go to the library to
get their summer reading because I hadn't finished getting them
their summer reading and school wasn't getting ready to start,
and I had to go to the grocery store. So
I had all this stuff I had to do, and
I had to go and pick up my paycheck, and
so I was leaving the house with the kids to
go pick up her and stuff. And I was sitting
on the living room floor with the Monopoly board game out,
(06:59):
and he was making the kids complain monopoly with them,
which wasn't unusual except for the fact that he was
adamant that night one of the kids won, or more
likely her husband let them win. Nobody ever beat Monopoly,
like it was like unheard of because he cheated terribly,
(07:21):
Like he just he didn't beat your dad of Monopoly,
like he'd find a way to win. And so I
was laughing, and it was like everything was kind of cool,
you know, But he was just there was like a
just like an okay, nous, like he wasn't agitated. There
was like nothing weird, which was almost a little bit abnormal,
(07:41):
you know, not that he was you know, it wasn't
a jerk or anything, but he just wasn't very chill.
And then um, he came to the back door and
he said, can you drive me to the quick trip?
And I said, well, I had a glass of wine,
I'm not going to drive, and he's said, oh, okay,
(08:02):
and he closed the door. So then I saw the
headlights moving out of the driveway, which made me mad
because I used to repeatedly hide car keys from him
so that he wouldn't drink and drive because he went
did tend to be somewhat self destructive. And then he
was in the room and the door was locked because
it locked him in there, and I knocked on the
(08:25):
door and I said, do you want to come and
sit with me because I'm gonna go to bed soon
and he was like yeah, I'll be right out, and
I was like okay, and I went and I checked
my email, knocked on the door again. He unlocked the
door and I walked in and he was listening to
music and I saw the gun on the on the
(08:46):
desk and it wasn't supposed to be in the house.
I was like, what is that doing in the house.
I think I even made a joke because the reason
I went over to the computer was that if he
didn't hurry up and come outside, that I was going
to post songs on his YouTube that he hate it,
like joking around, you know. I saw the gun and
then he picked it up and he did point it
(09:07):
at me. I tried to get it away from him,
and he said, you don't want to do that now.
I think the police tried to turn that into like
a threatening thing, but it was more like a you
don't want to piss me off kind of a tone
to it, and I let go. I sat down on
what I remember to be a table like, and I
(09:29):
remember sitting down and I remember covering my face because
I was like, oh God, he's going to kill me,
because I thought I had set him off to that point.
I heard a clicking noise and I moved my hands
and he had the gun pointed to his head. So
I jumped up and I tried to pull it away
(09:49):
from him, and I heard a pop. I didn't even
realize what had happened at first. I tried to pick
him up and he didn't move, and then I was
pulling on his arm and there was blood, and apparently
my screaming is what woke up some if not all
of them, I don't really know. And I remember running
(10:11):
around the house trying to find a phone and I
called nine one. She she came in at some point
and I told her to go away and everybody to
stay out because they didn't want them to see their father.
They told me they were going to take me to
the hospital. They took him. Finally they came. I felt
like an eternity, and they told me that they were
(10:31):
going to take me to the hospital. Then they took
me in a police car and they took me to
the station, which I didn't understand that. They told me
they would take me the hospital after and then they
wanted to talk to me, and um It had some
issues with the law throughout his life, and he always
(10:51):
told me never to talk to the police, and so honestly,
I was afraid that he was going to get in trouble.
So when they asked me what happened, I was like, well,
it's not gonna want me to talk to them, you know.
Do you remember what kind of questions the police ask you.
I don't remember a lot of questions. I remember asking
(11:14):
them questions more. I remember asking them where was when
they were going to take me, but I don't really
remember a lot of questions. But I also told them
I didn't want to answer any questions because in that
light of that situation, what could I tell the police
that could harm my husband? Because for all I knew
he was coming home in a wheelchair. I have no
(11:37):
idea at this point the extent of how my husband is.
I know nothing, And so I was like, I really
feel like I shouldn't talk to you, and I think
I may have said without a lawyer or something like that,
and really what I wanted to talk to was my
father in law. That made them angry. And then they left,
(11:59):
and then they came back and they told me that
it was gone, and then they told me that they
were going to arrest me, and they well, they took
a bunch of naked pictures of me first, which was bizarre,
which I can't even remember if that was first or after,
but they did take pictures of me, and I didn't understand.
(12:24):
I didn't understand like I thought I was supposed to
go to the hospital. Everything just kind of happened, and
then they took me into this room, and I just
don't even like the whole thing feels like a dream state.
I don't even know what time of day it was,
Like the whole day is just like bizarre fog. I
(12:47):
just feel like I was in shock, Like I don't
even feel like like you don't feel your legs. You're
walking and you're just like in sounds feel like they're
in another world, like it's not real, Like you can't
even wrap your brain around what's happening. I think they
(13:07):
said something like you're under arrest, and I think I
said for what, and they said murder. I mean, when
they came and said that they were charging me like
that was so shocking to me because I had been
trying to save him for the minute. I tried to
take the gun from him. From years before, I have
(13:27):
hit the gun from him, I hit car keys from him.
I poured five dollars worth of pharmaceuticals down my garbage disposal.
I poured bottles of jim Beam off my patio. I mean,
I spent years keeping this man alive. For that and
for me, that's what I did. And then calling with
(13:47):
an ambulance, I thought they were going to come and
help him. I just doubted that I was there. I
was there, and I wasn't going to leave him, didn't.
They took him from me, dine alone. We died without
(14:11):
me and I wasn't there, and just everything from them
from the day I met him un till the day
I lost him, I was keeping him alive. Like it
(14:33):
was just like what, like are you insane? And like
you can see in that situation when somebody says, what happened,
like so many things happened, You're like, I can't really
answer that question. I guess from what I understand from
(14:53):
what Phil told me that I was giving conflicting answers
and that I was standing and I was sitting where
he was sitting or he was standing, and we were fighting,
but we weren't fighting. Well, like all of those things
are true. And then it was like somehow, and I
know this is sound weird, but it's almost like didn't
matter any more. It was more like a witch hunt
(15:14):
for me. They took me and I think they were
laughing at me that if I remember correctly, because they
had me in like paper suits and stuff because they
had taken all my clothes. But I'm just talking about
the police station, like I said, it's like pretty voggy.
I had no shoes, and I remember standing outside of
(15:37):
the police car barefoot when they were bringing me to
the jail. And then they took me in and then they,
I guess what they called process me. They put me
in a room and I think I called my father
in law and I couldn't call my dad because he
was a long distance. They took me to the infirmary
and they put me in a room and it was flooded,
(15:57):
because I guess that then, I'm guessing that the inmates
do it, but I don't know. But they stuffed the
toilets until they overflow, and then they give you a
pad to sleep on, and they put you in a
sort of straight jacket sort of thing. It's like a
padded thing that you can wear. I was told later
at some point it was suicide watch. I mean there
(16:18):
was a girl in there that was singing to her baby.
I mean it was what I would imagine a psych
word when would be like. Then they took me out
of there, and then they took me and they put
me in the regular what they called general population. The
girls were really nice to me in there. I was,
(16:39):
you know, not never been to jail before. I didn't
know what they were going to be like, and I
pretty much just went in my cot They were just
really they were really nice to me. They were I mean,
I can't say anything. I guess I should say that
the experience was horrifying. The experience of losing my family
was horrifying. Jail was were They were nice women. A
(17:01):
lot of them were broken women that had been through
some I'm sure difficult trials in their life, you know,
but they were they were trained to me. My dad
came and asked me what to do, and I said
to make sure that they were safe. And then he
sent me a couple of lawyers, and I chose Phil.
I think I understand that it was over twenty one
(17:21):
days that I was in jail. I think that's what
they told me. I can't I can't remember. I'm sorry.
(17:46):
Like I mentioned, Phil was brought on as her defense
attorney early on, while she was still in jail. In
a series of interviews, I sat down with him and
his staff to find out what her case looked like
from the professionals point of view. We were all own
problems and short on time, and we needed to go
ahead and get her into court. We needed to get
a hearing, uh an evidentury hearing. We needed to find
(18:07):
out why the police we're saying that she was guilty
of murder, so we needed to test their evidence, if
you will. We needed to get our heads wrapped around
what the hell is going over their case? Why did
they charge her with murder so quickly? We had to
file motions to get her into court. We also were
interested in trying to get her out on bail, and
we knew going into this that was a long shot.
(18:28):
Quite frankly, I was not expecting to ever get her out,
at least not on bond, but we did. In my opinion,
they charged her so quickly because they misinterpreted the evidence
that they found at the scene. You have two people
and there's some type of an altercation and there's a
gun involved. One person gets shot and dies. Police sometimes
(18:53):
jump to conclusions and they get tunnel vision, and I
think that's what they did here. They looked at this
and they said, well, you know there was a gun,
somebody's dead, and you know she's alive. Well, she must
have killed him. This happened in close quarters, right, and
she's not who you might expect would prevail in a
physical altercation against him, and they I think misinterpreted the
(19:15):
crime scene a little bit and felt like they were
not close enough together when this altercation took place, that
maybe she had to be sort of across the room.
But there was an initial police and e m S
response that came in pretty quickly and changed some things around.
By the time investigators got there to really try to
truly process the scene, the gun that was involved had
(19:38):
been moved, of course, there was nobody. He had gone
off to the hospital for emergency room treatment, and so
the scene had been manipulated, not not in any malicious way,
but it had been changed. It was not the way
that it existed, you know, when it was just her there,
when she's on the phone with nine one one. It
(19:58):
was changed. So I think they misinterpreted things. They jumped
to some conclusions, I think, and then they built their
case around their misperceptions. I think that's the most charitable
way I could put it. They had a victim and
there was a gunshot entry wound on his left palm.
(20:21):
There was an exit wound out the back of his
left hand, something you should ask Chris Robinson about. You
might remember Chris Robinson from our earlier episode this season
on bite marks and forensic science. In that episode, he
went into the details of his work as a forensic consultant,
(20:42):
including analyzing ballistics and gunshot residue, both of which come
up in this case. So when Phil started assembling the defense,
he brought Chris on to evaluate the crime scene and
help determine whether or not his client's story of struggle
and self defense was likely or even possible. I believe
(21:02):
the question was the way that the individual was shot,
how close the range of fire was, the angle of
trajectory through the body of the bullet. I believe it
went through his hand and then into his face. So
as it went through his hand, there was stippling on
the hand a little bit, which is the bruising of
(21:24):
the skin about the unburned gunpowder particles, and then he
went through the hand and as it fragmented, that was
stippling all over his face. Some of that was pseudo
stippling from the bones that went through the hand. Some
of that could have been powder because it was very
close to his face at the time, but the pictures
(21:44):
he was right there. It was eviden I said that
the gun is is up against the handles as you
see it right through the hand, and and Philip was
He's looked at me and he's like, are you serious,
it's right there. Look, it's just still a tear. Stell
eight is the star shaped pattern. It's just a star
shaped pattern from the contact type of gunshot wing that's
(22:07):
caused by gas pressure. Bullets don't rip bullets punched holes.
When you see stella tearing, that's an indication that most
likely it was a contact shot, which means the muzzle
of the gun was directly up against the hand the skin.
It was an interesting case. The end of the day.
(22:27):
Bill's question was, do you think it could have been
an accident? Well, absolutely, if you're strugging over the weapon.
You see, we showed that his hand was was right
on the gun, very close to the gun, and that
there could have definitely been a struggle over the gun.
We ran through it several dozen times. But he said,
(22:47):
show me how how does the hand get in front
of his face like it was? How does all this happens? It? Well,
it broke the bombs as it went through and then
the it went into the face and the face had
he was severe trauma. But she could tell all these things,
and the more went over it, Philip was like, totally,
I mean, I can totally see where it was a
(23:09):
self defense kind of issue. The medical examiner told prosecutors
that Phil's client had to have been far away and
shot her husband from across the room. But what Chris
found was the exact opposite the stippling pattern, meaning how
the gunshot residue hit his body, as well as the
star shaped bullet entry wound proved that it was a
(23:30):
shot where the gun was pressed against the skin. This
describes what Phil's client told police and the nine one
one operator. She and her husband struggled up close before
the gun went off. The bottom line is that there
was a struggle for control of a gun. So she
(23:53):
walks in the room where he was and there's this gun,
and you know, she's not a gun person, doesn't like gun.
In fact, took a long time for me to be
able to even try to reconstruct this using an unloaded weapon,
and we did that eventually. We we talked about it
with Chris, and Chris and I were able to piece
it all together. Once we got some photographs and some
(24:14):
other evidence from the prosecutors, we were able to try
to go in and test what she said on the
nine one one call. Could these things have actually happened?
If he's right handed and he's holding a gun and
they're fighting over control of it, Is it possible for
what she said to the nine one one operator you know,
(24:36):
to have happened, and lo and behold it was in fact,
if if you're holding this particular gun and it was
a glaw and you've got your finger on the trigger
and the person that you're pointing it at reaches out,
which would be the natural thing to do is to
reach out and sort of push it back or whatever.
I remember back in my days in the police academy,
(24:56):
we actually trained for how do you what do you
do as somebody's close to you and they in a
gun at you. Well, one of the first things that
you can do, if it's your revolver, you just take
your your hand and you clamp down over the top
of the gun and you grab the cylinder of the
revolver and they can't pull the trigger and it won't fire.
So that's what you do with the revolver. But with
an automatic weapon or in this case, a semi automatic handgun,
the best thing to do defensively is to grab the
(25:18):
end of the weapon, the barrel, the business in and
point it in another direction so that if they do
pull the trigger, it's not coming right at you. That's
sort of the instinctual thing that somebody's going to do.
They're gonna grab the end of that weapon and they're
gonna try to push one way or the other. And
if the person who's holding that gun, if their finger
is on the trigger, unless they move their finger out
(25:41):
of the trigger, if you rotate the business into that
gun just a few degrees either side, left or right,
the finger is going to contract and your hand is
gonna cause your your trigger, your trigger finger basically to
pull the trigger, even though it's an involuntary movement. Chris
and I went through this, and we we tested this scenario,
(26:03):
and we never practiced this with a live round, of course,
but using an unloaded glock, you can do it. I've
got one here, and you can hear the click if
you want to hear it, so you can hear it's
it's a real gun. It's unloaded, there's nothing in the chamber.
I'm not pointing it anybody, but I'm gonna hold it
out with my arm extended like I'm pointing it at someone.
And then what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna take
(26:24):
my left hand, you push this barrel. What you'll hear
is and that's once I took the end of the
weapon and I basically just pushed the barrel to to
the to the side. It caused my trigger finger to click.
(26:45):
So we knew that it was plausible, if not probable,
that she was telling the truth. This is something that
nobody ever really thought about. They just said, well, she
said he was pointing at it himself. He was pointing
in at her. He was waving around. You know, she
she can't get make up her mind what the truth is,
so she must be guilty. But the truth is all
those things were probably happening. The medical examiner came up
(27:10):
with some cookie theory that she must have been across
the room because there was no stipling on his hand,
and he totally ignored the fact that it was still
eight entrance. When I knew the medical examiner's uh conclusions
were bullshit, and I knew I was gonna have to
prove it. But I was able to figure out that
(27:33):
he had had some problems. He was actually sanctioned by
the state his medical license. I don't think it was suspended,
but it I think he went into a probationary status
because he was disciplined for, you know, doing a bunch
of sloppy autopsies a number of years before this, and
he had entered into an agreement where they wouldn't suspend
his medical license, but he had to do a bunch
(27:53):
of autopsies under some kind of supervision and in a
probationary sort of a status. So I knew that this
guy had problems, and I knew that I'd known it
about it for a long time. And when I saw
his bizarre conclusions, I thought to myself, you know, he
may very well be at it again, and and I
(28:14):
need to get a sharp set of medical eyes on this.
So we we reached out to a doctor who used
to be the chief medical examiner for the state of Kentucky.
At the end of the day, he confirmed and I'm
gonna read part of his report. He says, a tighter
press contact gunshot wound will produce the exact same skin
(28:37):
findings and facial markings as seen in this case. The
only means to prove or disprove a tight contact wound
is a careful dissection of the deeper injuries in the
wound track. This was not done. This death is considered
by me to be an undetermined manner of death. I
(28:59):
favor accident as the results of a struggle between the
two people over control of the weapon. There is no
proof of homicide. This told me that all along everything
that I had thought and believed about this case, I
felt vindicated personally, but that didn't do her a hell
of a lot of good. She was still charged with murder.
(29:20):
I knew we were on the right path, at least
towards getting to the truth. Unfortunately, it took a long
long time and a lot of money and some good
help from from experts to to get to the truth.
We shouldn't be the ones having to prove this. The
police should have gotten this riot, but they didn't. This
(29:58):
is Caitlyn Phil's former are illegal. She worked with still
on all aspects of this case. I was first paralegal
for about four years. I have since moved to North
Georgia and I am no longer working in law. I'm
an optician now, but that probably doesn't matter, you know,
with this being five years ago. My mind is not
(30:18):
as crystal clear as when everything was happening, So I
would also just like to stay you know, I don't
want to mislead and I don't want to missay anything,
but you no, my my memories have might have changed
just a little bit. So he took on her case
a little bit before I got there, So it was
probably nine months nine to twelve months underway when I
(30:42):
joined Phil. You know, that was the biggest thing he
had going at the time, so I immediately was brought
to speed. It was very important. It carried a lot
of weight and at least to me, it was clear
that she did not need to be charged criminally for anything.
I know. He was very heavily invested through work but
(31:06):
also emotionally, and it was a very big time in
both of our lives because he had this in front
of him where she was potentially faced with a very
I mean it was a very big charge. She could
spend her life in prison, and he was just faced
with making sure that didn't happen, because we knew that
didn't need to happen. As far as I know, I
(31:27):
had access to everything. If Phil had access to it,
I had access to it. So I knew she wasn't
criminally guilty because I knew about her past in her
relationship with him. Um, and I knew the story, and
I knew the evidence. You know, I learned so much
about stifling and how bone fragments fracture when gunshots come
in at certain angles. Every single piece of direct, circumstantial,
(31:50):
any type of evidence just pointed to I mean, it
wasn't her. She didn't she didn't do it. She was
sending herself. I actually was going through discovery gathering, compiling
things for Phil and stumbled upon the autopsy photos unexpectedly.
Once it was shocking, But then once I saw it,
(32:11):
you know, and took a second and realize, okay, this
is what I'm looking at it, really it was intriguing.
H I mean, just everything pointed to the fact that
she was not criminally responsible for anything. I met her
and her four children. Um, I met her parents also.
I mean, I'll never forget any of them. They're really
great people there. She especially, It's just the type of
(32:33):
person you don't forget. I say, I had friends, you know,
I was newly out of college at the time. Now,
her friends asked me, how can you defend criminals, and
my mind always went to her. She isn't a criminal,
but she's being charge like one. And the law can
be very black and white sometimes, and you need criminal
(32:56):
defense attorneys to protect people from being railroaded by the state.
People need protecting from that, and she was a perfect
example of someone who was not guilty, who could be
charged with something, but it is not guilty of a crime.
(33:18):
Next time on Sworn, there was a laundry list of
churches did they offered the plea? And I think that
it was volunteering manslaughter. At first I didn't want the plea.
I was like, no, I'm not taking a police I
was furious, dude that he told me about the Alfred plea.
(33:41):
Sworn is a production of Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Radio.
Our lead producer is Christina Dana. Executive producers are Payne
Lindsay and Donald Albright for Tenderfoot TV, Matt Frederick and
Alex Williams for I Heart Radio, and myself Philip Holloway.
Additional production by Trevor Young, Mason Lindsay, Mike Rooney, Jamie Albright,
(34:05):
and Halle Beadall. Original music and sound designed by Makeup
and vanity set. Our theme song is Blood in the
Water by Layup. Show art and design is by Trevor Eisler,
editing by Christina Dana, mixing and mastering by Mike Rooney
and Cooper Skinner. Special thanks to the team at I
Heart Radio from u t a or In Rosenbaum and
(34:29):
Grace Royer, Ryan Nord and Matthew Papa from the Nord Group,
Back Media and Marketing, and Station sixteen. I'd also like
to extend a very personal and special thanks to all
of our contributors and guests who have helped to make
all of these episodes possible. You can find Sworn on Facebook, Twitter,
(34:50):
and Instagram at Sworn podcast and follow me your host,
Philip Halloway on Twitter at phil Holloway e s Q.
Our website is sworn podcast dot com, and you can
check out other Tenderfoot TV podcasts at www dot tenderfoot
dot tv. If you have questions or comments, you can
(35:11):
email us at Sworn at tenderfoot dot tv or leave
us a voicemail at four zero four for one zero
zero four one. As always, thanks for listening.
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