April 10, 2025 • 46 mins
People generally set out to write their memoirs in times of relative boredom or malaise—in other words, when they’ve retired. Not so for Graydon Carter. He began working on his new memoir, When the Going Was Good, just after leaving his post at the helm of Vanity Fair, where he was editor for 25 years, and as he was starting AIR MAIL. But then, whether Carter was lampooning the excesses of 1980s New Yorkers in Spy, hosting Oscar parties for the ages at Vanity Fair, or poring over the seating charts for his Greenwich Village restaurant The Waverly Inn, he never was one to loaf. On this episode of Table for Two, he joins host Bruce Bozzi to discuss his experience working as a railroad lineman in Canada, the moment he realized the golden age of print was nearing its end, and how he was able to effectively separate his work and family life.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, everybody, thanks for joining us today on Table for two.
I'm Bruce and we are in my hometown, NYC at
Via Coroda.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
We're gonna order some lunch, Okay, I mean, I know usually,
I guess the last night today we were having lunch
with a man who has come out with his memoir
called When the Going Was Good and.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Editor's Adventures during the Last Golden Age of Magazines. Mister
Graydon Carter, I'm gonna do the beat salad and the chicken.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Okay, I'll have the and I might have the I
think it was the best restaurant you are.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
Thank you do.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
That's a big thing coming from.
Speaker 5 (00:48):
So pull up a chair, grab a glass rose, and enjoy.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
I'm Bruce Bosi and this is my podcast Table for two.
Speaker 5 (01:07):
So if you've pulled up a chair.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Today on Table for two, we were sitting with a
man himself, mister Graydon Carter. Graydon's come out with a
book which Graydon, It's a great memoir.
Speaker 5 (01:17):
It really is well was good in.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Editors Adventures during the Last Golden Age of magazines, not
only because I actually saw my name in it, which
blew me away.
Speaker 5 (01:26):
I guess.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
My first question is why is this the time for
you to tell your story, do you think?
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Oh no, it happened completely backs And I was having lunch
with a friend of mine, James Fox, the great journalist
who wrote wrote the book White Mischief and wrote worked
with Keith Richards on his memoir Life, which was a
huge bestseller. And he said if I ever decided to
do a memoir that he would help me. And I'd
(01:55):
never even thought of it up to that point. And
then I had was approached by Bob Barnett, who's he's
a lawyer of Williams and Connolly, but he also represents.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
Authors.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
He represents you know, presidents and popes, who represented the Clintons,
the Obamas, and he you know, he's Bob Woodward's agents,
and so he said he would love to represent me,
and so so, you know, we I coupled together a proposal.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
I thought.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
I retired from Benny Fair, I had a little bit
more time on my hands, and and I and it
made me think that I realized that as I sort
of did the proposal, that I had lived through this
incredible golden age of of magazines that was very sort
of glamorous and fun. But because do great work and
(02:48):
great journalism, and James was invaluable because he you know,
he knew how to organize. He was helpful in organizing
the book and he would talk to some of my
ex employees that I was real like, you know, colleagues,
because I was sort of too embarrassed to say, can
we talk about me? And this way he could do
that and then he sort of guided me through the process.
I'd worked on it in with him in the South
(03:11):
of France, in New York, in Connecticut, and in London.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
It's interesting because when you know that you worked on
it with someone and you're such a great writer and
your your letters always in you know, the editor's letters
were so great that one would But now I understand
too because it is a sort of weird thing to
not only formulate it and put it together, but ask
people for things.
Speaker 5 (03:33):
Working with someone that you.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Will He would tell me what's boring and what's not boring,
and hopefully we left the non boring stop out as
much as possible.
Speaker 6 (03:42):
Really did.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Also, I like having a partner quite frank I'm not
that sort of solitary writer and a Garrett sort of person,
and I adore his company and it made it a
lot more fun than if I'd done it just myself,
a lot.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
More fun having grown up, and I used to save
all my vanit affairs. I still have a big stack
of them. The covers were so great, the articles were
so great. I mean, you created something, because everything always
sort of reveals itself. When did you start to smell
the discontent or the age was ending?
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Well, the Internet and the Internet and the financial crash
of two thousand and eight really caused magazines a great
deal of trouble. The Internet sort of gobbled the week
The Internet sort of gobbled the weeklies first, and it
was slower to get to the monthlies. But then at
the same time, the financial crash had dried up a
(04:34):
lot of advertising pages. We didn't suffer that much because
I had a very close connection to my advertisers. I
wrote thank you notes every month. But then the newstand
just started disappearing. And in New York, you know, every
major street corner had either one or two newstands on them.
And now when you see a newsstand on a street
corner in New York, you think it's like part of
(04:55):
a movie. Said so, and every every building, every office
building in the had a news stand in the lobby,
and now if they do, they sell gum and lotto
tickets where there's no magazine.
Speaker 5 (05:07):
Right.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
In fact, when we moved to one World Trade Center,
when Connie Nass moved there, I don't think anybody who
thought to ask for a news stand in the lobby.
Speaker 4 (05:17):
There wasn't one.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
We had to send somebody time to Square to get
a magazine. There was a so called efficiency move a
foot that would combine all half of my staff into
a group run.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
By and a win tour.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
And I thought I'd worked with these people for twenty
five years. They were key to the magazine. That was
the art direction staff, the photo staff, the fact checking staff,
and the legal staff. And I thought I couldn't possibly
work that way without the regular people I had, because
they knew these like the fact checkers and the researchers.
They knew that every writer's strengths and weaknesses, and they
(05:53):
were the ones who kept us.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
Out of court or libel actions.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
So yeah, and so you know, when Anna tried to
take home half my staff, and I don't I mean,
I don't.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
Blame her in anyway, but it just had that sort
of marked the end for me.
Speaker 5 (06:09):
And then I'm sure.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
My wife Anna had been pestering me to retire, and
so I thought I was coming up to twenty five years,
and I thought that's a nice tidy number. So she
went ahead and rented a house in the south of France.
They had sort of finalized the whole thing because it
started in December and my last day was I think
sometime in November, and three days later we were on
(06:33):
a flight to Europe, So it is that amazing.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
How did it feel after twenty five years? And I
want to really go through sort of the editorial, like
you know, I would love you to explain what the
editor does, and you were.
Speaker 4 (06:46):
Not that much by Oh yeah, we will, I'll do
my best.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
I don't know about that with your magazine because your
magazine was so curated, so perfectly and so beautiful. But
when you woke up in France after twenty five years,
did it feel like oh okay?
Speaker 4 (07:01):
It was like I was, I have not missed a
single thing. It's funny.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
I thought I'd missed having a car and driver, but
they invented this thing called.
Speaker 4 (07:09):
Uber so that took care of that.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
And I missed not seeing my colleagues when I was
over there. But Brad, you know, Airmail is staffed with
old Benny Fair hands, and I see all my colleagues
on a regular basis, so I don't I don't. I
don't now miss them because I see them. And it
was like losing like fifty pounds overnight, you know, I
(07:35):
felt healthier. It was, you know, running those big, a
big magazine like that under a lot of is a
lot of stress, and I I felt immensely relieved when
it was over, and I you know, I could wake
up in my own hours. I saw I got about
two thousand letters after I retired, and I took a
(07:55):
couple of months and answered every single one of them.
Speaker 5 (07:57):
Wow. So I mean, well that's reflective like this access.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
I think of Vanity Fair and of you, and I
kind of want to go a little bit back in
your life.
Speaker 5 (08:06):
Is the why the parties were something?
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Why you is the attention to detail and the level
of elegance and respect that you make sure you have
an aesthetic that sort of I mean, you're from Ottawa,
You're from Canada. You love you know, you have an
incredible restaurant here in New York called Waverley.
Speaker 5 (08:25):
The Waverley in and it's beautiful in the foot.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
How did you sort of develop this aesthetic from being
a kid from Ottawa who worked in the I mean
the early years of your life were tough.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
They weren't dead tough.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
I mean my parents I sent My parents were like
a lot of my parents' friends. They sent their sons
off to work somewhere out in the West coast, either
on the oil fields or the railroad, to toughen them
up before they started college and got on with their lives.
And I worked for six months for the Canadian Railroad
and National Railroad out of the Prairie as a lineman,
(09:01):
and I lived in a box car with eleven man
I couldn't believe, many of whom had sort of criminal records,
some minors, some slightly less so. And I adored these
guys and I had a great time and it taught me.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
It taught me a ton.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
First of all, I got over my fear of heights,
because you had to climb first twenty foot telegraph poles
and then thirty foot ones.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
And it was hard labor, and it was really.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Enjoyable, and I felt an enormous sense of accomplishment.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
So and a tough it did tough me up.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
I came back with muscles I didn't know I had,
all of which are probably gone now. And so but I,
you know, I felt, Okay, I'm done with that, and
now it's time to get on with an adult life.
And I care about little things because I just do.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
And so.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
I spent you know, I had a magazine in college
that was a literary political magazine, and it used to
spend hours and hours and hours there and spend sometimes
eighteen hours a day the Canadian Review, and it was
it was not very good. It was a magazine put
up by a bunch of young people who had never
worked at a magazine before.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
And what was it like articles?
Speaker 3 (10:17):
It was like it was like a like a very
bad collegiate version of Harper's or The Atlantic, and uh,
it just never did anything but lose money. And uh,
the Canadians like they the Canadian writers produced poetry at
incredible an incredible volume, and so that I hate contemporary poetry,
(10:39):
or not all of it, but I hate most of it,
at least the stuff that was being sent to me.
And I used to just at one point I just
the staff found caught me. They were very big on poetry.
And they caught me shoveling a load of recent submissions
into the waste basket one day, and they revolted on
masks and I had to bring in the news style.
(11:01):
And there was at this point you were I was
like twenty, and there just it was constant infighting. And
you have no idea the level of infighting at a
small magazine. And but you know, we eventually sold it
to our closest competitor, and it got me a job
at Time magazine.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
You talk about New York at a time where I
was growing up in New York and was in the seventies,
was in elementary school, but like ending by like fourteen,
so hitting nineteen eighty to fifteen, and New York truly
was and I can from at any I think at
any stage you were in a magical.
Speaker 5 (11:48):
Place in the seventies, it just was.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
I agree, explain what New York was to you, because
you really came and again impressive, the tweed blazer that
you know you're sweating your ass off.
Speaker 5 (11:58):
When you're trying to like a dime in your pocket
for a phone call.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
Yeah, I didn't have New York clothes.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
I didn't have you know, like like you know, seer
soccer suits or anything like that, because Canada is much
colder and I didn't have to wear a suit that much,
so I only came.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
I only had a.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Huge thick tweet jacket and a huge thick blue blazer.
And uh, I just love. I was so excited to
be New York. They burned as you know, they were
burned out cars. There was prostitutes everywhere. There's drugs everywhere,
there was there was like crime and fasted feet. Was
I've never been more excited. And you know, also when
(12:35):
you look back, it was New York was it was
sort of more free wheeling than it is now.
Speaker 5 (12:40):
And I'm not even no comparison.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
No comparison, and and I mean I appreciate that it's
less pre wheeling now that I'm older.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
I wouldn't want to be like the seventies again, for sure.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
I mean my brid was, yeah, two hundred dollars a
month from apartment not.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
Far from here.
Speaker 5 (12:56):
Chewing gum was ten cents twenty.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
I mean every I know, it's sound hot, the concrete,
well it's those eywhere else. Probably the you could go to, uh,
you know, a movie for two bucks.
Speaker 5 (13:14):
I mean you could go out and have a full
dinner movie.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Experience for twenty bucks. That was at that but more
so it was there was like anything could happen. And
and anyone who has lived through that, who I've spoken to,
it's not like we're glamorizing something. We're just appreciating sort
of the I think something that you are so good.
Speaker 5 (13:33):
At, the authenticity of what it was. And how did
those years gifts?
Speaker 1 (13:39):
I think, I think they really do influence influence you
in Time Life Spy to then get to Vanity Fair
because you go.
Speaker 5 (13:48):
From satirical to satorial.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
So it's an interesting at some point you made a
shift in something.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
Well, as you get older and as you get paid
a little more, you can dress a little better and
so and I have the love clothes. I'm not interested
in patch that money at all, but I really love clothes.
And also close I'm putting on a beautiful suit in
the morning makes.
Speaker 4 (14:15):
You feel better about the entire day, all right, So.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
No, it just everything was sort of gradual, and I
was so just happy to be in New York. And
there was a review in the Washington Post with the
credits really funny, so compared me to Buddy in l
and I thought, hey, that's really offensive.
Speaker 4 (14:34):
B it's really funny. And see it's really accurate.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
That's one of the great facets of your personality when
you read this book too, is you fine when it's bad,
but then you're like, but you know what, I really
that was really funny.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Okay, Okay, Canadians are very happy people. Look at the
Canadians you probably know in York, Mark and Short, Catherine O'Hara.
They're really happy people, right, They're really very affable. And
it's not a it's not a just a surface happiness.
They're happy, right, And I think they're especially happy to
be in America.
Speaker 5 (15:08):
This other than I think is right.
Speaker 7 (15:13):
Up until the last couple of months.
Speaker 5 (15:36):
Welcome back to Table for two.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
After writing for Time and then Life Magazine, our guest
Graydon Carter co founded Spy, a satirical magazine.
Speaker 5 (15:46):
That ran for twelve years. What inspired him to make
the leap?
Speaker 1 (15:52):
What kind of gave you the cajones to say now
I'm going back out on my own.
Speaker 4 (15:57):
Wellus having had a magazine in coll It just I
knew how to make a magazine. I didn't know how
to make a good magazine yet. And I knew, but
I knew the.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Elements of Megia magazine, and so I teamed up. When
I was at Life, I was a little bored. The
city had come out of that seventies period, burned out,
car has been towed away, with less drugs and prostitution,
and all of a sudden the city was washed with
investment bankers right and money and ladies who lunch and
(16:30):
people like Donald Trump and Riona Helmsley.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
And Steinberg, Sawberg, Godfrey, Shebang.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
So so it was accidentally really good timing. And so
I teamed up with Kurt Anderson, who I had met
at Time magazine, and over a nine month period he'd
come up to my office at Life every day and
we'd work on a proposal for a magazine called Spy,
which would be a funny, journalistic magazine.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
About New York City.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
And then we raised the money and we both left
our jobs, and it was.
Speaker 4 (17:07):
A shockingly big hit at the time.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
So when you were sitting with one another and you're
now putting together the issue, how did you target the
person that you're like?
Speaker 3 (17:22):
Didn't target anybody other than we just tried to make
each other laugh, and we thought if we laugh, other
people will do.
Speaker 5 (17:29):
And the covers were quite interesting.
Speaker 4 (17:31):
They were good. We had no money, but we did
our best with covers, and.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
We had sometimes we had very primitive versions of photoshop,
but we haven't. We attracted a number of good photographers
to shoot the covers, and we did the covers in
the way.
Speaker 4 (17:43):
That Lauren did Saturday Night Live.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
In the early days, we thought we were sort of
not ready for prime time, but we wanted people on
the covers.
Speaker 4 (17:51):
It'd be like the guest stars on Saturday and Live,
that the.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Reader would recognize the people on the cover, if not necessarily.
Speaker 4 (17:58):
In the early stages, the writers of the.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
Magazine, okay, so we had like, yeah, famous, like Chris
Elliott was on our famous cover for people who don't know,
Chris Elliott was a big thing when David.
Speaker 5 (18:09):
Le Chris Elliott, who is so funny, very funny. So
then because really it's the road to.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Vanity fair that I think pivots, probably pivots your whole
life in this way, and you leave that room, it
seems like you're leaving a room and coming into another
room of now elevating the people in a way that
you were.
Speaker 4 (18:37):
Now satirizing just writing in a straightforward way.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
But there was a after we sold Spy after five
years to excuse me, Johnny Pagazzi and Charles Sacci, and
then I went and edited The New York Observer. It
was very sleepy, upper each side broadsheet. It was salmon colored.
It had some New York Times type type face is
on the front page. After about six months they caught
(19:06):
on and I started sending complimentary copies to friends of mine,
A lot of them were editors in Europe. And then
sign new House, who made a.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
Twice yearly trip to all his properties in Europe. Young
you know, Vogue and The Fair and The New Yorker.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
And Details and GQ and Architective Digists and a dozen
other magazines. So he would go to visit and go
to London, Paris, Milan where their offices were in Europe.
And at one point, everywhere he went he'd see a
copy of The New York Observer in the editors in boxes.
And he came back thinking that this the paper was
(19:46):
this international success. I mean, it wasn't. I was, I
was sending them copies, but it was. It was a
success in New York. And so he he asked me
if I'd like to get together. And I'd met him previous.
Anna Winter and introduced me to him, and so I
went to his apartment and he said, like, I wonder
if you'd be interested in one or two of the
(20:07):
magazine and I said, all Earth, and he said either
The New Yorker or Vanity Fair.
Speaker 4 (20:13):
And I thought, oh my god. Right. So I we
had made religious fun.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Of Banny Fair, both the writing style, the editors, some
of the contributors, and I thought, so he said, well,
let's let's do the New York for them. And so
I worked on a plan for The New Yorker. And
then two weeks before no the day was supposed to
be announced. This is This is about two weeks after
he'd operated to me. So the day was supposed to
(20:41):
be announced, and a Winter calls me up and says,
it's going to be the other magazine.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
So I said, uh, okay, okay.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
And by that time, you know, I'm sort I had
no plan for Vanity Fair, but I felt that after
he offered me the job, and I accepted that I
had to get to work right away otherwise you wouldn't
pay me. And I had three kids at that point
and another one on the way. So I went to
work right away without a plan, and so it took
(21:09):
me a full two years to to pull together issues
that I wanted rather than ones I could just get
my hands on stories and photographs. I could get my
hands on them. And also there was a number of
people left over from the old regime who delighted and
spreading tales of my incompetency and inadequizines around town at
(21:33):
dinner parties.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
And I finally, I tried to work with them.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
For two years to bring them around to my way
of thinking, the way I like to work.
Speaker 4 (21:41):
But I just couldn't.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
And so one day, one week I went into the office,
and on successive days I got rid of all three.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
Of these troublemakers. And then things just changed.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
I got people to I don't like drama at the office,
and I got people to work together in a collegial
way rather than the combative way.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
I believe you get the most.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
Out of the people by treating them with great respect
and allowing them their dignity, and so I within by
the end of that second year, you know, people were
saying please and thank you, and working together, being collegial
and having great respect for the other person's talents and abilities,
and that's the way it was for the next twenty
(22:20):
three years.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
I mean, it's really amazing because when I recall seeing
as a young person Vanity Fair pre you, it seemed
like a very old magazine like that was because that
had been it had quite a history.
Speaker 5 (22:34):
I don't know when it began as a magazin.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
Started in nineteen thirteen, went to nineteen thirty six, and
was closed by Conye Nass who was a person not
too names jammed together right, and he closed it in
nineteen thirty six.
Speaker 5 (22:47):
Kanye n asked was a person, was.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
A person, and so it was very much for a
magazine for the smart set, as was The New Yorker,
and stayed too frivolous in the nineteen thirties, as you know,
as the rise of passion and Nazism in Europe and
folded in nineteen thirty six it was blended into Vogue Magazine.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
Where's the New Yorker really.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
Cut its teeth during World War Two with great reportage,
and that's what made the New Yorker. World War two
is when the New Yorker became what we think of
was the New Yorker and so yeah, so it had
it had it had an illustrious history, but it and
it was very much It was the biggest launch of the.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
Last forty years.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
And here I said it was a huge thing when
Side relaunched it.
Speaker 5 (23:41):
It had such style, So you brought your sensibility to that.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
And when did you start to understand you were shifting
actual culture?
Speaker 4 (23:49):
Well I never quite felt that.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
But the inside the magazine was a magazine of great journalism. That's,
you know, a great sort of narrative stories that would
run from ten to twenty thousand words. But the cover
is basically the wrapping. And unlike Vogue and GQ and
architectural didges say that have different editions in every country
(24:11):
in the world, there was one additional Vanity Fair that
we produced here in New York and it went around
the world. So I had to come up with cover
ideas that appealed to a newsstand, possible newsstand buyers in
India and Australia and America and the sort of the
common currency of the global newsstand.
Speaker 4 (24:33):
Then we're movie stars, so I wanted.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
People to be on the cover who I thought would
have long shelf lives, so we would look smart and
having chosen.
Speaker 4 (24:43):
Them, and.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
Movie starts from part because first of all, they're much
better looking than we are. And so if you're going
to have it on a newstand and then on your
coffee table, much better to have somebody who's really nice
looking rather than somebody who's not so nice looking.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Sure, which is why I still have so many there
any care, you know. And I switched to was on
the car, like who sits on the top? I think
right now when I.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Left it was Brad Pitt and it was on that Well,
if you could get Brad Pitt and George Plooney and
Julia Roberts every single month, that would have.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Been and it was a success, you know, one of
the things that was happening at the time. And I
remember this, you know, And I remember when the Oscars
were in March, and I could remember Swifty Lazare, who
was like a massive agent in Los Angeles doing his dinner,
doing those parties at Spago, and now.
Speaker 4 (25:32):
He invented the Oscar party.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
He invented it. So Swifty dies in December. You're like,
what sort of clicks that you have not only four
months to do this, in about like three months to
do it in three and a half to say, okay,
this is we have to own this, and how did
you get to that?
Speaker 4 (25:51):
Well, it wasn't It wasn't that curtain.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
He invited me to what turned out to be his
last Oscar party, and since I didn't know many people,
I had a good chance to sort of see how
he did things. For the Swift he had an a
room and a b rooms. Spot was divided in two,
and he the A room was for like the Gregory
packs and the Jimmy stories and all the rest, But
(26:14):
then the b room was for people like me, And
I thought, okay, So if I and he parole, he
parromed around the perimeter and like made sure people were
sitting in their seats, they couldn't take bathroom breaks, and
he got you would scream at you if you were
talking too much.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
So I thought, okay. When he dies in December, and
I thought we could do this. You know what I mean.
It's and but I had a number of rules.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
First of all, I would I want only one room,
no a B delineation. And in those days big uh
uh dinners or parties, there was often an area off
on the side that was roped off with the velvet
rope where the VIP sat, and I thought, I'm not
having any of that.
Speaker 4 (26:58):
Once you get in, everybody's the same. We'll probably make
it pretty difficult to get in.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
But I wanted a a sort of democratic celebrity serengetti
once you got in, And so we did.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
We we started. We did the first Oscar party.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
And we did it at Morton's, not Morton's Steakhouse, but
Morton's restaurant in.
Speaker 4 (27:17):
La which was then the sort of their power restaurant.
Speaker 5 (27:20):
And like you said, Monday.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
Nights, Monday night when the Oscars were on Monday, and
it was a single room, and so we did. We
started small because I thought we could really mess this
up and I didn't want a lot of witnesses.
Speaker 4 (27:33):
To our our fiasco.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
So but we had one hundred and fifty people for dinner,
and then about one hundred and fifty two hundred people
who came after the Oscars, and it was successful, and
so the next year got a little bigger, and it
got uh and and sort of more popular.
Speaker 4 (27:50):
Then it became very difficult.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
To limit the number of people coming because there's so
many people who wanted to come. But we would have
the fun of the the Beverly Hills Fire Marshal would
stand outside the door with a clicker, and once you
hit a certain number of people inside, he would stop
the entries. So you had to we had to tear
people at what time they came, hoping that the earlier
(28:12):
people would have by that time left. And then we
had a if you had an oscar, we had a
sort of speed lane in an H O V lane
And so the oscar got you an immediate that there's
a there's a party planner here in New York called
Bronze and van Wick.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
And he said.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
He he told me much later that he went he
bought he bought an oscar at a pawn shop in
the valley and just use it a whisk right in.
Speaker 4 (28:40):
That that speed when I was very respectful of him
for that.
Speaker 5 (28:44):
I mean, you liked.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
One of the things about you is like you like mischief.
I do like this, you like Misschi and in that
party like that. If you're clever like that, I'm fine
with that.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
I mean I'm not fine with like Harvey Weinstein showing
up with like seven Ladies.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Of the Night, you know, and was treating your staff
and mistreating Sarah staff badly. You never come back, right, Well,
that's the hospitality gene that I can share. Yeah, that's
like no, no, no, no, no no. So Harvey Harvey was
lucky to last as long as he did. So he
finally it's America, big boot.
Speaker 4 (29:16):
It is.
Speaker 5 (29:21):
Mm hmm. You also talk you have.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
There's a funny story about Courtney Love who mistreated Sarah
Mark who figured out because you know you kicked her out.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
I didn't kick her out, You didn't, she wanted, she
said during the party, and she said, great, you gotta
let my manager in. Her managers a very famous guy
in Hollywood. Now, but I won't say his name.
Speaker 4 (29:46):
She said.
Speaker 6 (29:46):
He's got my keys, he's got my walle and he's
got my drugs. He said, Look, I just can't deal
with this right now. There's Sarah Marks over there. Want
to Glasger I knew what the end explained to everyone listening.
Sarah markin She's a fucking gene. Okay, she was the
She was that my the person who ram the Oscar
party of the buildout of whatever we had to do.
(30:07):
She worked with my architect, Basal Walter. She brought in
the rolling stones, lighting manager path, the woodrup to do
the lighting because movie starts like good lightings, and so
she she sort of basically was the employee in charge
of the team in charge of the Oscar party.
Speaker 4 (30:24):
So and Sarah's she's a much tougher not than I am.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
I mean I was scared of her for so many years.
I have fallen in love with her. You know, I
just saw her recently and I can't get up for years.
Speaker 4 (30:34):
No, no, no, she terrified me. People would people would ask me.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
My kids found it really funny when people would come
up to me and ask me if I had any
any poll with her. And so I said, go talk
to Sarah Marxu. I knew what Sarah's gonna say. She's
gonna say no then, So it was according to she does.
I see her go out, and she goes out where
all the banks and photographers from all over the world
were and film cameras and we broadcast the arrivals inside
(30:59):
the room where the tele and sad word when the
oscars were on.
Speaker 4 (31:02):
So she goes down there.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
She says, I've got an important announcement to make, so
all the cameras turn on her.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
She's that's Courtney Loves. She's standing there. You can see it.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
Everybody inside the room can hear and see this. And
she said, I've got an important announcement to make. I
just want to say one thing that Sarah Mars is
a cunt.
Speaker 4 (31:20):
My lord.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
I mean, I felt so badly for Sarah, but it's
sort of immortalized her a bit. And she and I
thought a great use of technology on Courtney's part. And
then I think when Minority Report came out, Sarah must
have turned away a screenwride at one point because one
of the villains and Minority Report was called Sarah Marx.
Speaker 5 (31:43):
That's yeah. Well, it's a tough, tough job. And one
of the other tough jobs.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
And one of the interesting things that you did was
placement at tables like a wedding, and it's a very
difficult job.
Speaker 5 (31:55):
So and you also talk.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
About always throwing in that one person that's sort of
you know, the special person.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Well, first of all, the oscars are a long haul,
so it's four hours at a dinner table with other people.
Speaker 4 (32:08):
So I tried to make a save.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
We had one hundred and twenty people for dinner and
try to make twelve tables of ten and make each
table convivial dinner party then, so you would group people
together and often throw in a sort of wild card
that would be sort of help things move along. And
(32:33):
so yeah, and by large, by you know, by large,
we got it right. Occasionally we got it wrong. And
I tried to always separate people who had maybe had
affairs before and tried, or people who had turned down
somebody else's movie.
Speaker 4 (32:46):
There was a real there.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
It was an inexact science, but as science done the
last that we ninety five percent of the time we
got it really right of five percent, and now we got.
Speaker 4 (32:55):
It really wrong. But then it's funny. And then also
you have these different roles.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
In in New York, husbands and wives sit at the
same table, but not together. In Los Angeles, husbands and
wives sit at the same table beside each other. In Europe,
husbands and wives sit at different tables. So it's just
knowing this are the rules of the road. And when
we spent a lot of time on scene, we called
(33:20):
them seating meetings, and it would be about a half
dozen or a dozen of us.
Speaker 4 (33:24):
Frankly woulds often.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
Be there and she would try to kept saying, frank,
you're an observer to this.
Speaker 4 (33:30):
You're not a participant.
Speaker 7 (33:31):
She because she had opinions about everybody, and she would
have she.
Speaker 4 (33:36):
Would have had like three people.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
She had her way, so like if somebody pulled out,
that can completely change the way.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
Well, we were very careful, so we would we once
you accepted, we would follow up the week before, three
days before, the day before, and a few hours before.
So we wanted to so that there was only thank
you very much. Only a very few occasions did anybody
hansel and one time they one. I remember one time
(34:06):
we had an opening end. It was where Michael Mann
and his his wife were gonna sit. And I talked
to Sarah next day he said what happened to them?
Speaker 4 (34:15):
He said, Well, I really admired him for saying this.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
He said that he and his wife got into a
fight on the way there and they just turned around
and went home. I just so admired his honesty that
we invited them back the next.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Year, because right that that is a deal breaker if
you are like a show.
Speaker 4 (34:30):
If you don't want an empty seat beside.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
But we but then I would stick a convivial.
Speaker 4 (34:35):
Staff memory the.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
Thanks for joining us for Table for two. Before the break,
Graydon Carter was telling us about his time as editor
in chief at Vanity Fair and of course the Vanity
Fair Oscar Party.
Speaker 5 (35:08):
It was a time of transformation for the magazine.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
And I'm curious what Graydon thinks of his legacy there.
You created something that you know that really lasted for many,
many years.
Speaker 5 (35:19):
Obviously, what from your perspective.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
What did you what did you value that you were like,
there's an opportunity to create.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
Well, first of all, the ninety in the early nineties
when we did started this Grange was very much the fashion. Right,
the oscars were very much out of paper. They were
considered really square, and people shunned them. And Grove so
and I thought, I loved I loved movies when I
was growing up.
Speaker 4 (35:45):
I love older movies especially.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
And I thought, maybe it takes people from the East
to tell Hollywood their story that this is the glimer
was one of their huge trading currencies.
Speaker 4 (35:57):
And so I.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
Thought, if we did it lam mostly the guests would
appreciate that and come up to the game. And so.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
We had a lot of old Hollywood in the first
All right, you've always loved.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
Loved old Hollywood, Right, We had Billy Wilders and people
like that.
Speaker 4 (36:13):
So, but it after a while.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Then it helped I think it helped and they and
then the as the Hollywood Issue we did, I think
it helped make the the Oscars cool again.
Speaker 5 (36:26):
Oh my god, next level, hool you made the Oscar
so cool.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
So the Hollywood Issue that Greaton is talking about, which
also was a showstopper. You've done a couple of massive
things I think with when you're with your reign at
Vanity Fair, and one was the Hollywood Issue where you
have a trifle, and you were showing of male or
female you know who who are the up and coming,
who are the stars? And as you go in detail
(36:52):
about Annie Lieberwitz and her extraordinary talent and the positioning,
you know, what was that like and what did that
What was the competition to get on that cover because
I know there was certainly an issue with being on
the front versus the middle or versus the third page
to fold out because and I think you really elevated
(37:14):
people's careers at the same time, like it was like
one of those pretty good.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
At picking also, I mean, so when we first did
the Hollywood Issue with side new houses, I do after
we did after the party was success. The first one
was say a good boss to see like the greatest
loss one could ever Jimmilate come out, you know.
Speaker 4 (37:33):
I I ador size.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
It was like my second father and so we were
having lunch one day and he said, have you ever
thought of doing a special issue on Hollywood? And I
said no, And I actually I didn't like special issues
because I felt people come to a magazine for the
variety of stories. And he brought it up again. And
then one night I was sitting in the kitchen after
(37:54):
my kids were gone asleep, and I was at any manuscripts,
and I thought, wait, I think I could put together
a Hollywood. Sure they would have a business story that
would have an old story about an old Hollywood.
Speaker 4 (38:06):
I think I could do some of.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
It, with a conflict story and so, and maybe a
house story. So I went the next time I had lunches,
I said, yeah, let's do this. And so I but
I thought at that time it was like nineteen ninety
four or something. Now that I that there wasn't a
single actor or actress who was strong enough to carry
(38:31):
over this, carry this into you her concept. So I said,
let's do a three panel covered I don't know what
it's ever been done. Before, but I loved big group
shots and photographs, so we did. We thought a three
panel cover that folded out and then we would take
a billboard on sunset and so that over the years
(38:52):
of mutual friend of ours, Jane Sarkin, if she was
the one who organized the covers. We'd go through the
list of the candidates and then it was her job
who placed them on the first panel, second panel.
Speaker 4 (39:03):
Well, I would work with her, but she was.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
The one who negotiated with their agents and managers because
obviously the first panel of people are happier than the
second panel of people, and the second title people are
happier than the third of people, but the third panel
people are happier people.
Speaker 5 (39:17):
That didn't have anything so on the non existent fourth bound.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
But when they when they By the time anybody showed
up to Annie's shoe, all the negotiators had been.
Speaker 4 (39:26):
Worked out, there was no surprises for anybody.
Speaker 5 (39:28):
Never.
Speaker 4 (39:28):
There was never a situation did.
Speaker 5 (39:31):
Anyone walk for not being on the first time.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
Never, because they knew exactly where they were going to
be before they got there.
Speaker 4 (39:36):
We made sure that.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
You've mentioned a lot family and one of the things
that comes across and I've actually seen in real life.
And your children are amazingly gracious, smart.
Speaker 5 (40:00):
To earth human beings.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
And that's a true testament to you and their mother
and mother. And and you did you do something that
I thought was so true.
Speaker 5 (40:11):
I never thought about this grade And like when you would.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Go out to dinner having the young children sit in
a table, having your kids sit at a table in
the same way as supposed to leaving them home with
the babysitters. So you're gonna sit, which is teaching them
social interaction. Your your commitment to your family is a
wonderful thing. So talk was when what was it so
you were able to figure where most people of your
(40:35):
success chose one over the other, they were not able
to and usually the family sufferer.
Speaker 5 (40:42):
How did you, especially the children? How did you? Was
that something you grew up with? And I guess I'm
so impressed with it.
Speaker 3 (40:51):
And I mean, I will I and my family we
had a dinner together every night. And I thought I'd
actually strange enough, despite the job and whatever people's image
of me is, I was home most days at five
point thirty and I had dinner with my kids and
then I would work afterwards.
Speaker 4 (41:08):
And it was I didn't go out that much. I
went out when I had to go out and like
the Oscar party or something like that, but I so
we used to.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
Yeah, we had a restaurant was Dos Silvano on sixth
Avenue near here, and my wife and I were.
Speaker 4 (41:22):
Having dinner with another couple.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
I booked the table right beside us, and my four
kids would go there and they couldn't bring a book,
they couldn't bring a toy, they couldn't bring any there's
a pre video everything, and so we just have to
sit there at first, and they didn't quite know what
to do at first, and then they started talking, and
they started talking a lot more and over the years,
then they had their own dinner party right beside ours,
(41:44):
and they're staggeringly close as all I've fought kids now
and they and.
Speaker 4 (41:51):
I think it started at that table at Dos Silvana.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
I just think it was it's a brilliant, not only
a brilliant idea, but such a testament again who you
are and what you value, and it's it just blew
me away.
Speaker 4 (42:05):
And it made me.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Also think of just how I've raised Brian and I
have raised our daughter and our and and being a
step parent and now having grand It's the importance of because,
as people say, when you look back on your life
at that moment.
Speaker 5 (42:19):
You're not going to think, no, did I not get
that person on the county?
Speaker 3 (42:22):
So I have the loving around my kids. I mean,
I'm sure as you do. And then it's it's really fun.
And so there was a certain selfishness to it. And
yes that they were a good company and the more
you invest in them, the better company they are. Yeah,
so you know I was, I was. I divided my
life very equally between the job. I never thought of
(42:44):
it as a career. I just thought of it. This
is a great job, and I'm really lucky to have it,
and it pays for my family to you know, I
have a house in the country and you know, nice
car and so. But I after five point thirty, I
almost never discussed work at home when I was having
dinner with my wife and kids, unless it was something
really funny or really interesting. But never come home, and
(43:07):
never came home and complained about anything.
Speaker 4 (43:10):
Ever, And I had a million complaints every day.
Speaker 5 (43:13):
Let me tell you that is hystorical.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
And your wife, Anna, who's so lovely, and you guys
have welcomed us so many times.
Speaker 5 (43:20):
Are you comfortable at this moment?
Speaker 1 (43:23):
You've written this incredible memoir And I really can't speak
highly of it enough. I really enjoyed it. And I
am a not a great reader. I mean, Barry Diller
used to laugh at me.
Speaker 5 (43:35):
It took me.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
Maybe a year and a half to read The Kite Runner,
and finally he flew it. He flung it off his boat.
He was like, I'm like, I'm on chapter eight. I mean,
I'm a slow reader, I'm and I just was like, wow,
are you happy with what's happening now in your life
in regard to the book? And are you comfortable sitting
in the seat you're sitting in where normally you were.
Speaker 4 (43:56):
On the other side of the well. I'm a terrible
interview I'm a terrible journalist.
Speaker 3 (44:01):
I mean, but I no, I've never this is one
of the happiest experiences in my life.
Speaker 4 (44:07):
I am.
Speaker 3 (44:08):
I had no idea how much work it was to
do this, and I'm thrilled it's going on the New
York Times bestseller list.
Speaker 5 (44:13):
That to me is like, wow, I didn't realize that. Congratulations.
Speaker 3 (44:17):
Yeah, but a week from now and so and so
that makes me that was maybe just so incredibly happy
and and I love there's a lot of young people
who read the book because I think it's quite aspirational,
because if I know, nothing like me can have a nice,
successful life in New York, anybody can do it, any
old idiot.
Speaker 4 (44:37):
Great.
Speaker 5 (44:38):
Thank you for joining me today.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
This has been a huge honor for me and me
too and doing the podcast.
Speaker 5 (44:46):
With George, Julia Roberts, Mike So if.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
You're listening, please when the going was good and editors
adventures during the last golden age of magazines, it's amazing.
Speaker 5 (44:57):
Congratulations, Thank you for pulling up for share.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
I love our lunches and never forget the romance of
a meal. If you enjoy the show, please tell a
friend and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. Table
for Two with Bruce Bosi is produced by iHeartRadio seven
three seven Park and Airmail. Our executive producers are Bruce
Bosi and Nathan King. Our supervising producer is Dylan Fagan.
(45:34):
Our editors are Vincent to Johnny and Cas b Bias.
Table for two is researched and written by Jack Sullivan.
Our sound engineers are Meil B. Klein, Jess Krainich, and
Jesse funk Our music supervisor is Randall. Poster Our talent
booking is done by Jane Sarkin.
Speaker 5 (45:53):
Table for two's social media manager is Gracie Wiener. Special
thanks to Amy Sugarman, Uni Scherer.
Speaker 1 (45:59):
Kevin Vane, Bobby Bauer, Alison Kanter Graber. For more podcasts
from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Hey, everybody, thanks for joining us today on Table for two.
I'm Bruce and we are in my hometown, NYC at
Via Coroda.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
We're gonna order some lunch, Okay, I mean, I know usually,
I guess the last night today we were having lunch
with a man who has come out with his memoir
called When the Going Was Good and.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Editor's Adventures during the Last Golden Age of Magazines. Mister
Graydon Carter, I'm gonna do the beat salad and the chicken.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Okay, I'll have the and I might have the I
think it was the best restaurant you are.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
Thank you do.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
That's a big thing coming from.
Speaker 5 (00:48):
So pull up a chair, grab a glass rose, and enjoy.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
I'm Bruce Bosi and this is my podcast Table for two.
Speaker 5 (01:07):
So if you've pulled up a chair.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Today on Table for two, we were sitting with a
man himself, mister Graydon Carter. Graydon's come out with a
book which Graydon, It's a great memoir.
Speaker 5 (01:17):
It really is well was good in.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Editors Adventures during the Last Golden Age of magazines, not
only because I actually saw my name in it, which
blew me away.
Speaker 5 (01:26):
I guess.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
My first question is why is this the time for
you to tell your story, do you think?
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Oh no, it happened completely backs And I was having lunch
with a friend of mine, James Fox, the great journalist
who wrote wrote the book White Mischief and wrote worked
with Keith Richards on his memoir Life, which was a
huge bestseller. And he said if I ever decided to
do a memoir that he would help me. And I'd
(01:55):
never even thought of it up to that point. And
then I had was approached by Bob Barnett, who's he's
a lawyer of Williams and Connolly, but he also represents.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
Authors.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
He represents you know, presidents and popes, who represented the Clintons,
the Obamas, and he you know, he's Bob Woodward's agents,
and so he said he would love to represent me,
and so so, you know, we I coupled together a proposal.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
I thought.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
I retired from Benny Fair, I had a little bit
more time on my hands, and and I and it
made me think that I realized that as I sort
of did the proposal, that I had lived through this
incredible golden age of of magazines that was very sort
of glamorous and fun. But because do great work and
(02:48):
great journalism, and James was invaluable because he you know,
he knew how to organize. He was helpful in organizing
the book and he would talk to some of my
ex employees that I was real like, you know, colleagues,
because I was sort of too embarrassed to say, can
we talk about me? And this way he could do
that and then he sort of guided me through the process.
I'd worked on it in with him in the South
(03:11):
of France, in New York, in Connecticut, and in London.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
It's interesting because when you know that you worked on
it with someone and you're such a great writer and
your your letters always in you know, the editor's letters
were so great that one would But now I understand
too because it is a sort of weird thing to
not only formulate it and put it together, but ask
people for things.
Speaker 5 (03:33):
Working with someone that you.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Will He would tell me what's boring and what's not boring,
and hopefully we left the non boring stop out as
much as possible.
Speaker 6 (03:42):
Really did.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Also, I like having a partner quite frank I'm not
that sort of solitary writer and a Garrett sort of person,
and I adore his company and it made it a
lot more fun than if I'd done it just myself,
a lot.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
More fun having grown up, and I used to save
all my vanit affairs. I still have a big stack
of them. The covers were so great, the articles were
so great. I mean, you created something, because everything always
sort of reveals itself. When did you start to smell
the discontent or the age was ending?
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Well, the Internet and the Internet and the financial crash
of two thousand and eight really caused magazines a great
deal of trouble. The Internet sort of gobbled the week
The Internet sort of gobbled the weeklies first, and it
was slower to get to the monthlies. But then at
the same time, the financial crash had dried up a
(04:34):
lot of advertising pages. We didn't suffer that much because
I had a very close connection to my advertisers. I
wrote thank you notes every month. But then the newstand
just started disappearing. And in New York, you know, every
major street corner had either one or two newstands on them.
And now when you see a newsstand on a street
corner in New York, you think it's like part of
(04:55):
a movie. Said so, and every every building, every office
building in the had a news stand in the lobby,
and now if they do, they sell gum and lotto
tickets where there's no magazine.
Speaker 5 (05:07):
Right.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
In fact, when we moved to one World Trade Center,
when Connie Nass moved there, I don't think anybody who
thought to ask for a news stand in the lobby.
Speaker 4 (05:17):
There wasn't one.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
We had to send somebody time to Square to get
a magazine. There was a so called efficiency move a
foot that would combine all half of my staff into
a group run.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
By and a win tour.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
And I thought I'd worked with these people for twenty
five years. They were key to the magazine. That was
the art direction staff, the photo staff, the fact checking staff,
and the legal staff. And I thought I couldn't possibly
work that way without the regular people I had, because
they knew these like the fact checkers and the researchers.
They knew that every writer's strengths and weaknesses, and they
(05:53):
were the ones who kept us.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
Out of court or libel actions.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
So yeah, and so you know, when Anna tried to
take home half my staff, and I don't I mean,
I don't.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
Blame her in anyway, but it just had that sort
of marked the end for me.
Speaker 5 (06:09):
And then I'm sure.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
My wife Anna had been pestering me to retire, and
so I thought I was coming up to twenty five years,
and I thought that's a nice tidy number. So she
went ahead and rented a house in the south of France.
They had sort of finalized the whole thing because it
started in December and my last day was I think
sometime in November, and three days later we were on
(06:33):
a flight to Europe, So it is that amazing.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
How did it feel after twenty five years? And I
want to really go through sort of the editorial, like
you know, I would love you to explain what the
editor does, and you were.
Speaker 4 (06:46):
Not that much by Oh yeah, we will, I'll do
my best.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
I don't know about that with your magazine because your
magazine was so curated, so perfectly and so beautiful. But
when you woke up in France after twenty five years,
did it feel like oh okay?
Speaker 4 (07:01):
It was like I was, I have not missed a
single thing. It's funny.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
I thought I'd missed having a car and driver, but
they invented this thing called.
Speaker 4 (07:09):
Uber so that took care of that.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
And I missed not seeing my colleagues when I was
over there. But Brad, you know, Airmail is staffed with
old Benny Fair hands, and I see all my colleagues
on a regular basis, so I don't I don't. I
don't now miss them because I see them. And it
was like losing like fifty pounds overnight, you know, I
(07:35):
felt healthier. It was, you know, running those big, a
big magazine like that under a lot of is a
lot of stress, and I I felt immensely relieved when
it was over, and I you know, I could wake
up in my own hours. I saw I got about
two thousand letters after I retired, and I took a
(07:55):
couple of months and answered every single one of them.
Speaker 5 (07:57):
Wow. So I mean, well that's reflective like this access.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
I think of Vanity Fair and of you, and I
kind of want to go a little bit back in
your life.
Speaker 5 (08:06):
Is the why the parties were something?
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Why you is the attention to detail and the level
of elegance and respect that you make sure you have
an aesthetic that sort of I mean, you're from Ottawa,
You're from Canada. You love you know, you have an
incredible restaurant here in New York called Waverley.
Speaker 5 (08:25):
The Waverley in and it's beautiful in the foot.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
How did you sort of develop this aesthetic from being
a kid from Ottawa who worked in the I mean
the early years of your life were tough.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
They weren't dead tough.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
I mean my parents I sent My parents were like
a lot of my parents' friends. They sent their sons
off to work somewhere out in the West coast, either
on the oil fields or the railroad, to toughen them
up before they started college and got on with their lives.
And I worked for six months for the Canadian Railroad
and National Railroad out of the Prairie as a lineman,
(09:01):
and I lived in a box car with eleven man
I couldn't believe, many of whom had sort of criminal records,
some minors, some slightly less so. And I adored these
guys and I had a great time and it taught me.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
It taught me a ton.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
First of all, I got over my fear of heights,
because you had to climb first twenty foot telegraph poles
and then thirty foot ones.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
And it was hard labor, and it was really.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Enjoyable, and I felt an enormous sense of accomplishment.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
So and a tough it did tough me up.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
I came back with muscles I didn't know I had,
all of which are probably gone now. And so but I,
you know, I felt, Okay, I'm done with that, and
now it's time to get on with an adult life.
And I care about little things because I just do.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
And so.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
I spent you know, I had a magazine in college
that was a literary political magazine, and it used to
spend hours and hours and hours there and spend sometimes
eighteen hours a day the Canadian Review, and it was
it was not very good. It was a magazine put
up by a bunch of young people who had never
worked at a magazine before.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
And what was it like articles?
Speaker 3 (10:17):
It was like it was like a like a very
bad collegiate version of Harper's or The Atlantic, and uh,
it just never did anything but lose money. And uh,
the Canadians like they the Canadian writers produced poetry at
incredible an incredible volume, and so that I hate contemporary poetry,
(10:39):
or not all of it, but I hate most of it,
at least the stuff that was being sent to me.
And I used to just at one point I just
the staff found caught me. They were very big on poetry.
And they caught me shoveling a load of recent submissions
into the waste basket one day, and they revolted on
masks and I had to bring in the news style.
(11:01):
And there was at this point you were I was
like twenty, and there just it was constant infighting. And
you have no idea the level of infighting at a
small magazine. And but you know, we eventually sold it
to our closest competitor, and it got me a job
at Time magazine.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
You talk about New York at a time where I
was growing up in New York and was in the seventies,
was in elementary school, but like ending by like fourteen,
so hitting nineteen eighty to fifteen, and New York truly
was and I can from at any I think at
any stage you were in a magical.
Speaker 5 (11:48):
Place in the seventies, it just was.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
I agree, explain what New York was to you, because
you really came and again impressive, the tweed blazer that
you know you're sweating your ass off.
Speaker 5 (11:58):
When you're trying to like a dime in your pocket
for a phone call.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
Yeah, I didn't have New York clothes.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
I didn't have you know, like like you know, seer
soccer suits or anything like that, because Canada is much
colder and I didn't have to wear a suit that much,
so I only came.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
I only had a.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Huge thick tweet jacket and a huge thick blue blazer.
And uh, I just love. I was so excited to
be New York. They burned as you know, they were
burned out cars. There was prostitutes everywhere. There's drugs everywhere,
there was there was like crime and fasted feet. Was
I've never been more excited. And you know, also when
(12:35):
you look back, it was New York was it was
sort of more free wheeling than it is now.
Speaker 5 (12:40):
And I'm not even no comparison.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
No comparison, and and I mean I appreciate that it's
less pre wheeling now that I'm older.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
I wouldn't want to be like the seventies again, for sure.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
I mean my brid was, yeah, two hundred dollars a
month from apartment not.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
Far from here.
Speaker 5 (12:56):
Chewing gum was ten cents twenty.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
I mean every I know, it's sound hot, the concrete,
well it's those eywhere else. Probably the you could go to, uh,
you know, a movie for two bucks.
Speaker 5 (13:14):
I mean you could go out and have a full
dinner movie.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Experience for twenty bucks. That was at that but more
so it was there was like anything could happen. And
and anyone who has lived through that, who I've spoken to,
it's not like we're glamorizing something. We're just appreciating sort
of the I think something that you are so good.
Speaker 5 (13:33):
At, the authenticity of what it was. And how did
those years gifts?
Speaker 1 (13:39):
I think, I think they really do influence influence you
in Time Life Spy to then get to Vanity Fair
because you go.
Speaker 5 (13:48):
From satirical to satorial.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
So it's an interesting at some point you made a
shift in something.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
Well, as you get older and as you get paid
a little more, you can dress a little better and
so and I have the love clothes. I'm not interested
in patch that money at all, but I really love clothes.
And also close I'm putting on a beautiful suit in
the morning makes.
Speaker 4 (14:15):
You feel better about the entire day, all right, So.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
No, it just everything was sort of gradual, and I
was so just happy to be in New York. And
there was a review in the Washington Post with the
credits really funny, so compared me to Buddy in l
and I thought, hey, that's really offensive.
Speaker 4 (14:34):
B it's really funny. And see it's really accurate.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
That's one of the great facets of your personality when
you read this book too, is you fine when it's bad,
but then you're like, but you know what, I really
that was really funny.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Okay, Okay, Canadians are very happy people. Look at the
Canadians you probably know in York, Mark and Short, Catherine O'Hara.
They're really happy people, right, They're really very affable. And
it's not a it's not a just a surface happiness.
They're happy, right, And I think they're especially happy to
be in America.
Speaker 5 (15:08):
This other than I think is right.
Speaker 7 (15:13):
Up until the last couple of months.
Speaker 5 (15:36):
Welcome back to Table for two.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
After writing for Time and then Life Magazine, our guest
Graydon Carter co founded Spy, a satirical magazine.
Speaker 5 (15:46):
That ran for twelve years. What inspired him to make
the leap?
Speaker 1 (15:52):
What kind of gave you the cajones to say now
I'm going back out on my own.
Speaker 4 (15:57):
Wellus having had a magazine in coll It just I
knew how to make a magazine. I didn't know how
to make a good magazine yet. And I knew, but
I knew the.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Elements of Megia magazine, and so I teamed up. When
I was at Life, I was a little bored. The
city had come out of that seventies period, burned out,
car has been towed away, with less drugs and prostitution,
and all of a sudden the city was washed with
investment bankers right and money and ladies who lunch and
(16:30):
people like Donald Trump and Riona Helmsley.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
And Steinberg, Sawberg, Godfrey, Shebang.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
So so it was accidentally really good timing. And so
I teamed up with Kurt Anderson, who I had met
at Time magazine, and over a nine month period he'd
come up to my office at Life every day and
we'd work on a proposal for a magazine called Spy,
which would be a funny, journalistic magazine.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
About New York City.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
And then we raised the money and we both left
our jobs, and it was.
Speaker 4 (17:07):
A shockingly big hit at the time.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
So when you were sitting with one another and you're
now putting together the issue, how did you target the
person that you're like?
Speaker 3 (17:22):
Didn't target anybody other than we just tried to make
each other laugh, and we thought if we laugh, other
people will do.
Speaker 5 (17:29):
And the covers were quite interesting.
Speaker 4 (17:31):
They were good. We had no money, but we did
our best with covers, and.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
We had sometimes we had very primitive versions of photoshop,
but we haven't. We attracted a number of good photographers
to shoot the covers, and we did the covers in
the way.
Speaker 4 (17:43):
That Lauren did Saturday Night Live.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
In the early days, we thought we were sort of
not ready for prime time, but we wanted people on
the covers.
Speaker 4 (17:51):
It'd be like the guest stars on Saturday and Live,
that the.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Reader would recognize the people on the cover, if not necessarily.
Speaker 4 (17:58):
In the early stages, the writers of the.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
Magazine, okay, so we had like, yeah, famous, like Chris
Elliott was on our famous cover for people who don't know,
Chris Elliott was a big thing when David.
Speaker 5 (18:09):
Le Chris Elliott, who is so funny, very funny. So
then because really it's the road to.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Vanity fair that I think pivots, probably pivots your whole
life in this way, and you leave that room, it
seems like you're leaving a room and coming into another
room of now elevating the people in a way that
you were.
Speaker 4 (18:37):
Now satirizing just writing in a straightforward way.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
But there was a after we sold Spy after five
years to excuse me, Johnny Pagazzi and Charles Sacci, and
then I went and edited The New York Observer. It
was very sleepy, upper each side broadsheet. It was salmon colored.
It had some New York Times type type face is
on the front page. After about six months they caught
(19:06):
on and I started sending complimentary copies to friends of mine,
A lot of them were editors in Europe. And then
sign new House, who made a.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
Twice yearly trip to all his properties in Europe. Young
you know, Vogue and The Fair and The New Yorker.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
And Details and GQ and Architective Digists and a dozen
other magazines. So he would go to visit and go
to London, Paris, Milan where their offices were in Europe.
And at one point, everywhere he went he'd see a
copy of The New York Observer in the editors in boxes.
And he came back thinking that this the paper was
(19:46):
this international success. I mean, it wasn't. I was, I
was sending them copies, but it was. It was a
success in New York. And so he he asked me
if I'd like to get together. And I'd met him previous.
Anna Winter and introduced me to him, and so I
went to his apartment and he said, like, I wonder
if you'd be interested in one or two of the
(20:07):
magazine and I said, all Earth, and he said either
The New Yorker or Vanity Fair.
Speaker 4 (20:13):
And I thought, oh my god. Right. So I we
had made religious fun.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Of Banny Fair, both the writing style, the editors, some
of the contributors, and I thought, so he said, well,
let's let's do the New York for them. And so
I worked on a plan for The New Yorker. And
then two weeks before no the day was supposed to
be announced. This is This is about two weeks after
he'd operated to me. So the day was supposed to
(20:41):
be announced, and a Winter calls me up and says,
it's going to be the other magazine.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
So I said, uh, okay, okay.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
And by that time, you know, I'm sort I had
no plan for Vanity Fair, but I felt that after
he offered me the job, and I accepted that I
had to get to work right away otherwise you wouldn't
pay me. And I had three kids at that point
and another one on the way. So I went to
work right away without a plan, and so it took
(21:09):
me a full two years to to pull together issues
that I wanted rather than ones I could just get
my hands on stories and photographs. I could get my
hands on them. And also there was a number of
people left over from the old regime who delighted and
spreading tales of my incompetency and inadequizines around town at
(21:33):
dinner parties.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
And I finally, I tried to work with them.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
For two years to bring them around to my way
of thinking, the way I like to work.
Speaker 4 (21:41):
But I just couldn't.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
And so one day, one week I went into the office,
and on successive days I got rid of all three.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
Of these troublemakers. And then things just changed.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
I got people to I don't like drama at the office,
and I got people to work together in a collegial
way rather than the combative way.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
I believe you get the most.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
Out of the people by treating them with great respect
and allowing them their dignity, and so I within by
the end of that second year, you know, people were
saying please and thank you, and working together, being collegial
and having great respect for the other person's talents and abilities,
and that's the way it was for the next twenty
(22:20):
three years.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
I mean, it's really amazing because when I recall seeing
as a young person Vanity Fair pre you, it seemed
like a very old magazine like that was because that
had been it had quite a history.
Speaker 5 (22:34):
I don't know when it began as a magazin.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
Started in nineteen thirteen, went to nineteen thirty six, and
was closed by Conye Nass who was a person not
too names jammed together right, and he closed it in
nineteen thirty six.
Speaker 5 (22:47):
Kanye n asked was a person, was.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
A person, and so it was very much for a
magazine for the smart set, as was The New Yorker,
and stayed too frivolous in the nineteen thirties, as you know,
as the rise of passion and Nazism in Europe and
folded in nineteen thirty six it was blended into Vogue Magazine.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
Where's the New Yorker really.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
Cut its teeth during World War Two with great reportage,
and that's what made the New Yorker. World War two
is when the New Yorker became what we think of
was the New Yorker and so yeah, so it had
it had it had an illustrious history, but it and
it was very much It was the biggest launch of the.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
Last forty years.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
And here I said it was a huge thing when
Side relaunched it.
Speaker 5 (23:41):
It had such style, So you brought your sensibility to that.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
And when did you start to understand you were shifting
actual culture?
Speaker 4 (23:49):
Well I never quite felt that.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
But the inside the magazine was a magazine of great journalism. That's,
you know, a great sort of narrative stories that would
run from ten to twenty thousand words. But the cover
is basically the wrapping. And unlike Vogue and GQ and
architectural didges say that have different editions in every country
(24:11):
in the world, there was one additional Vanity Fair that
we produced here in New York and it went around
the world. So I had to come up with cover
ideas that appealed to a newsstand, possible newsstand buyers in
India and Australia and America and the sort of the
common currency of the global newsstand.
Speaker 4 (24:33):
Then we're movie stars, so I wanted.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
People to be on the cover who I thought would
have long shelf lives, so we would look smart and
having chosen.
Speaker 4 (24:43):
Them, and.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
Movie starts from part because first of all, they're much
better looking than we are. And so if you're going
to have it on a newstand and then on your
coffee table, much better to have somebody who's really nice
looking rather than somebody who's not so nice looking.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Sure, which is why I still have so many there
any care, you know. And I switched to was on
the car, like who sits on the top? I think
right now when I.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Left it was Brad Pitt and it was on that Well,
if you could get Brad Pitt and George Plooney and
Julia Roberts every single month, that would have.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Been and it was a success, you know, one of
the things that was happening at the time. And I
remember this, you know, And I remember when the Oscars
were in March, and I could remember Swifty Lazare, who
was like a massive agent in Los Angeles doing his dinner,
doing those parties at Spago, and now.
Speaker 4 (25:32):
He invented the Oscar party.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
He invented it. So Swifty dies in December. You're like,
what sort of clicks that you have not only four
months to do this, in about like three months to
do it in three and a half to say, okay,
this is we have to own this, and how did
you get to that?
Speaker 4 (25:51):
Well, it wasn't It wasn't that curtain.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
He invited me to what turned out to be his
last Oscar party, and since I didn't know many people,
I had a good chance to sort of see how
he did things. For the Swift he had an a
room and a b rooms. Spot was divided in two,
and he the A room was for like the Gregory
packs and the Jimmy stories and all the rest, But
(26:14):
then the b room was for people like me, And
I thought, okay, So if I and he parole, he
parromed around the perimeter and like made sure people were
sitting in their seats, they couldn't take bathroom breaks, and
he got you would scream at you if you were
talking too much.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
So I thought, okay. When he dies in December, and
I thought we could do this. You know what I mean.
It's and but I had a number of rules.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
First of all, I would I want only one room,
no a B delineation. And in those days big uh
uh dinners or parties, there was often an area off
on the side that was roped off with the velvet
rope where the VIP sat, and I thought, I'm not
having any of that.
Speaker 4 (26:58):
Once you get in, everybody's the same. We'll probably make
it pretty difficult to get in.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
But I wanted a a sort of democratic celebrity serengetti
once you got in, And so we did.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
We we started. We did the first Oscar party.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
And we did it at Morton's, not Morton's Steakhouse, but
Morton's restaurant in.
Speaker 4 (27:17):
La which was then the sort of their power restaurant.
Speaker 5 (27:20):
And like you said, Monday.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
Nights, Monday night when the Oscars were on Monday, and
it was a single room, and so we did. We
started small because I thought we could really mess this
up and I didn't want a lot of witnesses.
Speaker 4 (27:33):
To our our fiasco.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
So but we had one hundred and fifty people for dinner,
and then about one hundred and fifty two hundred people
who came after the Oscars, and it was successful, and
so the next year got a little bigger, and it
got uh and and sort of more popular.
Speaker 4 (27:50):
Then it became very difficult.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
To limit the number of people coming because there's so
many people who wanted to come. But we would have
the fun of the the Beverly Hills Fire Marshal would
stand outside the door with a clicker, and once you
hit a certain number of people inside, he would stop
the entries. So you had to we had to tear
people at what time they came, hoping that the earlier
(28:12):
people would have by that time left. And then we
had a if you had an oscar, we had a
sort of speed lane in an H O V lane
And so the oscar got you an immediate that there's
a there's a party planner here in New York called
Bronze and van Wick.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
And he said.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
He he told me much later that he went he
bought he bought an oscar at a pawn shop in
the valley and just use it a whisk right in.
Speaker 4 (28:40):
That that speed when I was very respectful of him
for that.
Speaker 5 (28:44):
I mean, you liked.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
One of the things about you is like you like mischief.
I do like this, you like Misschi and in that
party like that. If you're clever like that, I'm fine
with that.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
I mean I'm not fine with like Harvey Weinstein showing
up with like seven Ladies.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Of the Night, you know, and was treating your staff
and mistreating Sarah staff badly. You never come back, right, Well,
that's the hospitality gene that I can share. Yeah, that's
like no, no, no, no, no no. So Harvey Harvey was
lucky to last as long as he did. So he
finally it's America, big boot.
Speaker 4 (29:16):
It is.
Speaker 5 (29:21):
Mm hmm. You also talk you have.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
There's a funny story about Courtney Love who mistreated Sarah
Mark who figured out because you know you kicked her out.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
I didn't kick her out, You didn't, she wanted, she
said during the party, and she said, great, you gotta
let my manager in. Her managers a very famous guy
in Hollywood. Now, but I won't say his name.
Speaker 4 (29:46):
She said.
Speaker 6 (29:46):
He's got my keys, he's got my walle and he's
got my drugs. He said, Look, I just can't deal
with this right now. There's Sarah Marks over there. Want
to Glasger I knew what the end explained to everyone listening.
Sarah markin She's a fucking gene. Okay, she was the
She was that my the person who ram the Oscar
party of the buildout of whatever we had to do.
(30:07):
She worked with my architect, Basal Walter. She brought in
the rolling stones, lighting manager path, the woodrup to do
the lighting because movie starts like good lightings, and so
she she sort of basically was the employee in charge
of the team in charge of the Oscar party.
Speaker 4 (30:24):
So and Sarah's she's a much tougher not than I am.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
I mean I was scared of her for so many years.
I have fallen in love with her. You know, I
just saw her recently and I can't get up for years.
Speaker 4 (30:34):
No, no, no, she terrified me. People would people would ask me.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
My kids found it really funny when people would come
up to me and ask me if I had any
any poll with her. And so I said, go talk
to Sarah Marxu. I knew what Sarah's gonna say. She's
gonna say no then, So it was according to she does.
I see her go out, and she goes out where
all the banks and photographers from all over the world
were and film cameras and we broadcast the arrivals inside
(30:59):
the room where the tele and sad word when the
oscars were on.
Speaker 4 (31:02):
So she goes down there.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
She says, I've got an important announcement to make, so
all the cameras turn on her.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
She's that's Courtney Loves. She's standing there. You can see it.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
Everybody inside the room can hear and see this. And
she said, I've got an important announcement to make. I
just want to say one thing that Sarah Mars is
a cunt.
Speaker 4 (31:20):
My lord.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
I mean, I felt so badly for Sarah, but it's
sort of immortalized her a bit. And she and I
thought a great use of technology on Courtney's part. And
then I think when Minority Report came out, Sarah must
have turned away a screenwride at one point because one
of the villains and Minority Report was called Sarah Marx.
Speaker 5 (31:43):
That's yeah. Well, it's a tough, tough job. And one
of the other tough jobs.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
And one of the interesting things that you did was
placement at tables like a wedding, and it's a very
difficult job.
Speaker 5 (31:55):
So and you also talk.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
About always throwing in that one person that's sort of
you know, the special person.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Well, first of all, the oscars are a long haul,
so it's four hours at a dinner table with other people.
Speaker 4 (32:08):
So I tried to make a save.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
We had one hundred and twenty people for dinner and
try to make twelve tables of ten and make each
table convivial dinner party then, so you would group people
together and often throw in a sort of wild card
that would be sort of help things move along. And
(32:33):
so yeah, and by large, by you know, by large,
we got it right. Occasionally we got it wrong. And
I tried to always separate people who had maybe had
affairs before and tried, or people who had turned down
somebody else's movie.
Speaker 4 (32:46):
There was a real there.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
It was an inexact science, but as science done the
last that we ninety five percent of the time we
got it really right of five percent, and now we got.
Speaker 4 (32:55):
It really wrong. But then it's funny. And then also
you have these different roles.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
In in New York, husbands and wives sit at the
same table, but not together. In Los Angeles, husbands and
wives sit at the same table beside each other. In Europe,
husbands and wives sit at different tables. So it's just
knowing this are the rules of the road. And when
we spent a lot of time on scene, we called
(33:20):
them seating meetings, and it would be about a half
dozen or a dozen of us.
Speaker 4 (33:24):
Frankly woulds often.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
Be there and she would try to kept saying, frank,
you're an observer to this.
Speaker 4 (33:30):
You're not a participant.
Speaker 7 (33:31):
She because she had opinions about everybody, and she would
have she.
Speaker 4 (33:36):
Would have had like three people.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
She had her way, so like if somebody pulled out,
that can completely change the way.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
Well, we were very careful, so we would we once
you accepted, we would follow up the week before, three
days before, the day before, and a few hours before.
So we wanted to so that there was only thank
you very much. Only a very few occasions did anybody
hansel and one time they one. I remember one time
(34:06):
we had an opening end. It was where Michael Mann
and his his wife were gonna sit. And I talked
to Sarah next day he said what happened to them?
Speaker 4 (34:15):
He said, Well, I really admired him for saying this.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
He said that he and his wife got into a
fight on the way there and they just turned around
and went home. I just so admired his honesty that
we invited them back the next.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Year, because right that that is a deal breaker if
you are like a show.
Speaker 4 (34:30):
If you don't want an empty seat beside.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
But we but then I would stick a convivial.
Speaker 4 (34:35):
Staff memory the.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
Thanks for joining us for Table for two. Before the break,
Graydon Carter was telling us about his time as editor
in chief at Vanity Fair and of course the Vanity
Fair Oscar Party.
Speaker 5 (35:08):
It was a time of transformation for the magazine.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
And I'm curious what Graydon thinks of his legacy there.
You created something that you know that really lasted for many,
many years.
Speaker 5 (35:19):
Obviously, what from your perspective.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
What did you what did you value that you were like,
there's an opportunity to create.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
Well, first of all, the ninety in the early nineties
when we did started this Grange was very much the fashion. Right,
the oscars were very much out of paper. They were
considered really square, and people shunned them. And Grove so
and I thought, I loved I loved movies when I
was growing up.
Speaker 4 (35:45):
I love older movies especially.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
And I thought, maybe it takes people from the East
to tell Hollywood their story that this is the glimer
was one of their huge trading currencies.
Speaker 4 (35:57):
And so I.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
Thought, if we did it lam mostly the guests would
appreciate that and come up to the game. And so.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
We had a lot of old Hollywood in the first
All right, you've always loved.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
Loved old Hollywood, Right, We had Billy Wilders and people
like that.
Speaker 4 (36:13):
So, but it after a while.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Then it helped I think it helped and they and
then the as the Hollywood Issue we did, I think
it helped make the the Oscars cool again.
Speaker 5 (36:26):
Oh my god, next level, hool you made the Oscar
so cool.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
So the Hollywood Issue that Greaton is talking about, which
also was a showstopper. You've done a couple of massive
things I think with when you're with your reign at
Vanity Fair, and one was the Hollywood Issue where you
have a trifle, and you were showing of male or
female you know who who are the up and coming,
who are the stars? And as you go in detail
(36:52):
about Annie Lieberwitz and her extraordinary talent and the positioning,
you know, what was that like and what did that
What was the competition to get on that cover because
I know there was certainly an issue with being on
the front versus the middle or versus the third page
to fold out because and I think you really elevated
(37:14):
people's careers at the same time, like it was like
one of those pretty good.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
At picking also, I mean, so when we first did
the Hollywood Issue with side new houses, I do after
we did after the party was success. The first one
was say a good boss to see like the greatest
loss one could ever Jimmilate come out, you know.
Speaker 4 (37:33):
I I ador size.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
It was like my second father and so we were
having lunch one day and he said, have you ever
thought of doing a special issue on Hollywood? And I
said no, And I actually I didn't like special issues
because I felt people come to a magazine for the
variety of stories. And he brought it up again. And
then one night I was sitting in the kitchen after
(37:54):
my kids were gone asleep, and I was at any manuscripts,
and I thought, wait, I think I could put together
a Hollywood. Sure they would have a business story that
would have an old story about an old Hollywood.
Speaker 4 (38:06):
I think I could do some of.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
It, with a conflict story and so, and maybe a
house story. So I went the next time I had lunches,
I said, yeah, let's do this. And so I but
I thought at that time it was like nineteen ninety
four or something. Now that I that there wasn't a
single actor or actress who was strong enough to carry
(38:31):
over this, carry this into you her concept. So I said,
let's do a three panel covered I don't know what
it's ever been done. Before, but I loved big group
shots and photographs, so we did. We thought a three
panel cover that folded out and then we would take
a billboard on sunset and so that over the years
(38:52):
of mutual friend of ours, Jane Sarkin, if she was
the one who organized the covers. We'd go through the
list of the candidates and then it was her job
who placed them on the first panel, second panel.
Speaker 4 (39:03):
Well, I would work with her, but she was.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
The one who negotiated with their agents and managers because
obviously the first panel of people are happier than the
second panel of people, and the second title people are
happier than the third of people, but the third panel
people are happier people.
Speaker 5 (39:17):
That didn't have anything so on the non existent fourth bound.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
But when they when they By the time anybody showed
up to Annie's shoe, all the negotiators had been.
Speaker 4 (39:26):
Worked out, there was no surprises for anybody.
Speaker 5 (39:28):
Never.
Speaker 4 (39:28):
There was never a situation did.
Speaker 5 (39:31):
Anyone walk for not being on the first time.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
Never, because they knew exactly where they were going to
be before they got there.
Speaker 4 (39:36):
We made sure that.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
You've mentioned a lot family and one of the things
that comes across and I've actually seen in real life.
And your children are amazingly gracious, smart.
Speaker 5 (40:00):
To earth human beings.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
And that's a true testament to you and their mother
and mother. And and you did you do something that
I thought was so true.
Speaker 5 (40:11):
I never thought about this grade And like when you would.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Go out to dinner having the young children sit in
a table, having your kids sit at a table in
the same way as supposed to leaving them home with
the babysitters. So you're gonna sit, which is teaching them
social interaction. Your your commitment to your family is a
wonderful thing. So talk was when what was it so
you were able to figure where most people of your
(40:35):
success chose one over the other, they were not able
to and usually the family sufferer.
Speaker 5 (40:42):
How did you, especially the children? How did you? Was
that something you grew up with? And I guess I'm
so impressed with it.
Speaker 3 (40:51):
And I mean, I will I and my family we
had a dinner together every night. And I thought I'd
actually strange enough, despite the job and whatever people's image
of me is, I was home most days at five
point thirty and I had dinner with my kids and
then I would work afterwards.
Speaker 4 (41:08):
And it was I didn't go out that much. I
went out when I had to go out and like
the Oscar party or something like that, but I so
we used to.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
Yeah, we had a restaurant was Dos Silvano on sixth
Avenue near here, and my wife and I were.
Speaker 4 (41:22):
Having dinner with another couple.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
I booked the table right beside us, and my four
kids would go there and they couldn't bring a book,
they couldn't bring a toy, they couldn't bring any there's
a pre video everything, and so we just have to
sit there at first, and they didn't quite know what
to do at first, and then they started talking, and
they started talking a lot more and over the years,
then they had their own dinner party right beside ours,
(41:44):
and they're staggeringly close as all I've fought kids now
and they and.
Speaker 4 (41:51):
I think it started at that table at Dos Silvana.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
I just think it was it's a brilliant, not only
a brilliant idea, but such a testament again who you
are and what you value, and it's it just blew
me away.
Speaker 4 (42:05):
And it made me.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Also think of just how I've raised Brian and I
have raised our daughter and our and and being a
step parent and now having grand It's the importance of because,
as people say, when you look back on your life
at that moment.
Speaker 5 (42:19):
You're not going to think, no, did I not get
that person on the county?
Speaker 3 (42:22):
So I have the loving around my kids. I mean,
I'm sure as you do. And then it's it's really fun.
And so there was a certain selfishness to it. And
yes that they were a good company and the more
you invest in them, the better company they are. Yeah,
so you know I was, I was. I divided my
life very equally between the job. I never thought of
(42:44):
it as a career. I just thought of it. This
is a great job, and I'm really lucky to have it,
and it pays for my family to you know, I
have a house in the country and you know, nice
car and so. But I after five point thirty, I
almost never discussed work at home when I was having
dinner with my wife and kids, unless it was something
really funny or really interesting. But never come home, and
(43:07):
never came home and complained about anything.
Speaker 4 (43:10):
Ever, And I had a million complaints every day.
Speaker 5 (43:13):
Let me tell you that is hystorical.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
And your wife, Anna, who's so lovely, and you guys
have welcomed us so many times.
Speaker 5 (43:20):
Are you comfortable at this moment?
Speaker 1 (43:23):
You've written this incredible memoir And I really can't speak
highly of it enough. I really enjoyed it. And I
am a not a great reader. I mean, Barry Diller
used to laugh at me.
Speaker 5 (43:35):
It took me.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
Maybe a year and a half to read The Kite Runner,
and finally he flew it. He flung it off his boat.
He was like, I'm like, I'm on chapter eight. I mean,
I'm a slow reader, I'm and I just was like, wow,
are you happy with what's happening now in your life
in regard to the book? And are you comfortable sitting
in the seat you're sitting in where normally you were.
Speaker 4 (43:56):
On the other side of the well. I'm a terrible
interview I'm a terrible journalist.
Speaker 3 (44:01):
I mean, but I no, I've never this is one
of the happiest experiences in my life.
Speaker 4 (44:07):
I am.
Speaker 3 (44:08):
I had no idea how much work it was to
do this, and I'm thrilled it's going on the New
York Times bestseller list.
Speaker 5 (44:13):
That to me is like, wow, I didn't realize that. Congratulations.
Speaker 3 (44:17):
Yeah, but a week from now and so and so
that makes me that was maybe just so incredibly happy
and and I love there's a lot of young people
who read the book because I think it's quite aspirational,
because if I know, nothing like me can have a nice,
successful life in New York, anybody can do it, any
old idiot.
Speaker 4 (44:37):
Great.
Speaker 5 (44:38):
Thank you for joining me today.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
This has been a huge honor for me and me
too and doing the podcast.
Speaker 5 (44:46):
With George, Julia Roberts, Mike So if.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
You're listening, please when the going was good and editors
adventures during the last golden age of magazines, it's amazing.
Speaker 5 (44:57):
Congratulations, Thank you for pulling up for share.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
I love our lunches and never forget the romance of
a meal. If you enjoy the show, please tell a
friend and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. Table
for Two with Bruce Bosi is produced by iHeartRadio seven
three seven Park and Airmail. Our executive producers are Bruce
Bosi and Nathan King. Our supervising producer is Dylan Fagan.
(45:34):
Our editors are Vincent to Johnny and Cas b Bias.
Table for two is researched and written by Jack Sullivan.
Our sound engineers are Meil B. Klein, Jess Krainich, and
Jesse funk Our music supervisor is Randall. Poster Our talent
booking is done by Jane Sarkin.
Speaker 5 (45:53):
Table for two's social media manager is Gracie Wiener. Special
thanks to Amy Sugarman, Uni Scherer.
Speaker 1 (45:59):
Kevin Vane, Bobby Bauer, Alison Kanter Graber. For more podcasts
from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Host
Bruce Bozzi
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com