May 28, 2024 • 42 mins
To perfectly capture the essence of a subject, director Sam Taylor-Johnson borrows a strategy used by method actors. The British filmmaker and photographer says she enters the character's headspace to better represent their feelings, emotions, and complexities. For this reason, Taylor-Johnson only seeks out projects she can viscerally connect to, which was the case with her new Amy Winehouse biopic, Back to Black. On this week’s episode of Table for Two, Taylor-Johnson sits down for lunch with host Bruce Bozzi and discusses the moment she knew Marisa Abela was the right choice to play Winehouse, the difficulties of navigating the movie industry as a woman, and how her poignant photographic portrait series of Hollywood stars, “Crying Men,” helped her come to terms with her second cancer diagnosis.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey everyone, thanks for pulling up a chair today for
Table for two. This time we're back at the Sunset
Tower in Los Angeles for another great lunch.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
May I get a chop seted with salmon? I have
a sight of Frays.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
The classic just they're excellent here too. Our guest today
started out as part of a group known as the
Young British Artist. Prior to becoming a successful film director,
she was an acclaimed photographer. She has directed films such
as Nowhere Boy, which tells the tale of a teenage
John Lennon. Her most recent film, Back to Black, is
(00:42):
a stirring biopic of Amy Winehouse's life. There that's right,
we're having lunch with the incredible Sam Taylor John So
we're going to discuss Back to Black, her photography, and
(01:04):
a lot more So. Pull up a chair and grab
a glass of rose, because this is going to be
a wonderful conversation. I'm Bruce Bosi and this is my
podcast Table for two. Welcome to Table for two. I'm excited,
(01:27):
so exciting.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Like I said, it's my favorite thing. But I looked
at my crazy schedule. I did fifty seven interviews in
one day yesterday.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
No, yes, so if i'm a little holes.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Oh my god, well we need would you like something
to drink?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Ju I'm good with water, thank you. I'm going to
take care for my jongly jewelry so I don't drive
you crazy.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Back there hot with regular mos. Wait a minute, yeahay, Well,
first of all, if you've pulled up a chair today
on table for two, we're having lunch with an incredible woman,
a director. You have a movie Back to Black, which
is coming out the story of Amy Winehouse, which I
have a lot of questions. You've directed big blockbusters. You're
(02:12):
an artist, you're a photographer, you're a bread You're like
this encourags. We are having mom of four kids.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Let's try that, Imma four kids.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Where we often see you in the neighborhood. Yeah, Sam
Taylor Johnson, how are you.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
I'm good, I'm good.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Welcome.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
My voice is a little rass beaver.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Tell me about what you're on the tours.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
I'm on the Presto and it's interesting. This is my
fourth movie and this presst I'm loving it, and I
don't love prestols. I don't know if you ever hear
anyone say they like a presto now, but it's so
amazing when you get to talk about something that you
feel passionate about and yeah, and it sounds false, but
it's so true. I am so passionate about this film
(02:52):
and and I love talking about it, so I don't
I don't get tired of it. Although yeah, maybe fifty
six and fifty seven I was like, oh God, I'm done.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
I beg did you know Amy personally? Had you ever
met her past cross in London?
Speaker 2 (03:06):
No, It's interesting. I knew so many people in common.
We had so many friends, and so we were connected
through friends. But because maybe I had small kids and
I would you know, early to bed she was, you know,
famously quite a nocturnal animal. She I'd always kind of
catch the tailwind of her sort of that I derived
(03:27):
somewhere and people would say, oh, she's just left right interesting. Yeah,
but I did see. One of the things I'm so
grateful for is that a friend of mine took me
to the Young Voices of Jazz almost Talent night at
Ronnie Scott's, and she was one of the young Voices
of jazz. She was just this I don't even know
how old she was, probably not even twenty and uh,
(03:49):
and she was singing in the in this show in
the audience watched.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Isn't that what's so fascinating about life? Sam? There's moment
these moments, Yeah, never knowing down the path of life
that you're directing and telling a story of her life.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
And then we ended up filming there. We filmed in
Ronnie Scott's the Jazz Club in London, where I had
seen her perform, and so it kind of gave me
the energy of how to create that scene that I'd
been there and I'd sort of had a sense of
you know, who she was in that moment and then yeah,
it reflects on it now kind of.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Yeah, a lot of that. That's wild this film there.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Well, I want to I really want to talk about
her and your connection with her, But like, you've had
quite a story, really life yourself really cool, like on
a level that I don't think got dark like Amy's
life became, but you know, running around with really interesting
artists in London. Can you talk a little bit about your.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Sort of Yeah, I mean I had I had my
share of the darkest quite sort of turbulent childhood and
upbringing and then that led me, I guess, to becoming
an artist. If I get you know, as a shortcut
way of sort of saying, you know, interesting, turbulent, complex
dark at times has led me to where I am now.
(05:14):
I often think, so there are times where you know,
obviously when you're in it as a young person, it's
it's you know, it's terrible. And then as a sort
of more mature person who you know, I create movies,
I create art photography. Yes, I can see the complexities
of what I went through feeding into that. So am
I thankful and grateful? Probably I couldn't allow myself to
(05:37):
say that, But at the same time, I know that
there's an importance to what I went through in terms
of how I then sort of serve what I do,
I guess to the world.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Yeah, I think that it's fascinating when you have to
look at your life and you have a some twenty
twenty vision looking back, but knowing that without the difficult times, yeah,
the darker times, you don't get to really who you
are and be the visionary that you specifically are and
have the lens and the eyes.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Without that no, and I sort of went into the
art world. You know, I was sort of very wide eyed,
and you know, it was at the time where sort
of Damien Hurst and Tracy m and everyone was sort
of becoming during that time, and I was just so
sort of like, I don't know, over excited by it,
and I kind of again kind of caught the tailwind
(06:27):
of that and was exhibiting alongside those those people. And
then I had Angelica, who is my first she's twenty
seven now, and then within six months I was diagnosed
with cancer. So just as I was sort of in
my you know, pivotal moment of I you know, I'm
an young mother, but I'm also sort of becoming a
(06:47):
celebrated it all kind of crashed in and so there's
so much you had to answer that question at the beginning,
and it just like it told me through I'm like, okay,
let's sp talk with so don't want to do too much,
but I think you know all of that again, it
sort of all feeds in and again, am I grateful
to it? Not? But I know at the same time
(07:10):
it gives me a lens and a perspective to make
the movies I do.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Yeah, you've survived cancer twice, You've had this, you know,
these moments that are just have life alter and life
changing that form you and your level of humanity. Just
you know, Sam is like having met you and you've
been to the house and run into each other in
the neighborhood. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Lucky.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
You know there's so much warmth and just such kindness
and I think that is that that's you can see
that in your art and you see it in your
photography and things.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
And you can say it on Brian's windscreen when he
hikes and I put a parking cast in there when.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
So there's acts of generosity, right. So we will hike
in an area where Sam lives, and we will park
where we shutn't and we'll come back and won't have
a ticket because you have come out seen the car
and you're like, oh, this is Brian's car, and went
(08:06):
very sweet. You know.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
I've moved back to England now and I left that
beautiful place behind and I went for a hike around
Running Canyon this morning. I was like, wait, why did
I this is so beautiful?
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Why did you live?
Speaker 2 (08:20):
I think it was just, you know, post pandemic everything
you know, the lens shifts, doesn't it, And there was
something about needing to be home and taking the kids
home had grown up essentially in la and just sort
of showing them, you know, our roots and where we're
from and and just sort of existing in London. And
(08:41):
and you know, I think they would equally come back
and me and say are we grateful? I'm not so sure,
because you know, they left behind friends and you know,
one of my kids is a surfer tennis player and
she's like, yeah, thanks, thanks a bunch. The ocean's freezing
and nowhere near.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
What has been difficult, you know, the being a woman
and being a woman in this business specifically, and what
we've seen happen. Is there a challenge that you comfortable
sort of sh.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
I mean the challenge is that I feel like every
movie I make, you know, I'm back to ground zero
the next one. And then I see my male counterparts
and I'm like, wait, how come you got off of that?
It didn't even come to my door? Wait, this is
there's an indiscrepancy here. And I feel like I grew
up hustling and I never have stopped the hustle. And
(09:35):
you know, I'm a sort of beat on the door. Yeah,
and then and I've never stopped. I really, in fact,
this is the only time I felt like this back
to Black and Amy Winehouse, for it was such a gift.
It came to me I didn't hear about it, and go, wait,
I need to do that. I'm going to pitch myself
for it.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Wait.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
It came to me via our producer, Alison Owen, and
she said, would you be interested in making the Amy Winner?
And I was saying yes before before I'd even finished
processing what that would mean and the responsibility, especially of
what I was taking on and and but that was
the first time where I felt like that I didn't
need to hustle. I had the job, and I knew
(10:12):
immediately what I was doing, and I just I just
sort of got into what felt like the fastest car ever.
I felt that some some movies to get them made,
you have to push a boulder uphill through treatment, and
sometimes they don't get made and you're still, you know,
pushing it. But this one, I feel like I'm in.
I'm on a sort of high speed train or a
faster sort of keeping up to that.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Yeah, that's interesting, you know, you the hustle, the fact
that no matter what, even after your last success project,
you're still finding yourself for a position. Yeah, A woman
to have to hustle and get yourself in the room
and it's.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Yeah and something like this.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
It felt good to be a woman directing this story
about Amy, who you know. Had the reason, I mean,
one of the multiple reasons I wanted to do it
was I felt like growing up in you know, living
close to her in London, knowing people around her, but
also watching the intensity of her her sort of battles
(11:10):
and vulnerabilities played out in real time through the paparazzi lens,
you know, post her death, you know, the sort of
it being sort of fetishized in a way and picked apart.
And then there's the documentary, which I think was brilliant
by the way, but I felt like, again it was
sort of you know, picking apart her life, and I
wanted to almost go, okay, I want to make this
(11:31):
through her lens and her perspective, so that the because
you know, like the tragedy and the sense of her
being a victim, it really eclipsed the brilliance of her
music and who she was. So I kind of went
into it in the lens of, I guess, quite a
sort of protective, nurturing face.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Yes, you can really feel that in your movie. The
it's a beautiful movie and the album is you forget
like how prolific this album was, and her death and
her story eclipses sort of the brilliance of this woman
and her voice and her voice and her relationship. So
(12:08):
you know what was the most when you're making a
movie about someone who is a real person and has
family that's still alive. Yeah, what are the challenges in
making sure?
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Tough?
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Hay respect.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Yeah, it's tough because the offset I said, you know,
I have to make the movie I want to make,
and I have to be allowed to so you know
who has what rights and how do I navigate that?
And Allison said, we have all the music rights, we
have Sony and Universal, we have every publishing everything, so
(12:41):
you are not bar olden too anyone. And she said,
and you know everything that you want to use that's
in the public domain. You know, we can work with.
And so I didn't have to be beholden to anything
or anyone. But at the same time, I met with
Mitch and Janis, who are her parents, out of respect
because I thought I'm making a movie about their daughter,
(13:04):
and you know, and there's a lot of heavy judgment
around particularly as well as Blake, her husband. But Blake,
I had so many scheduled meetings, but he got so frightened.
I think of meeting me in terms of maybe what
my perception and was of him or the point of
view I was going to take.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
So I never met him. But Jack who plays.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Him, spent time with him, and Jack O'Connell. It's brilliant actor,
and he plays it with such humanity, not just a
sort of one dimensional villain.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
No, you don't leave, yeah that your film thinking of
him as a villain. No, not the father, the father.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Because I felt like, if I'm making the movie in
her perspective, she loved her father and her family, and
she loved her husband. Therefore, if I'm true to her
guiding me through this story through her music and her lyrics,
then I have to look at them with love and
my judgment and everyone else's is irrelevant. So therefore, to
make you know a story essentially of addiction without judgment,
(14:06):
and to look at you know the process of what
she went through in the sense that I often think
you know with alcoholics anonymous on narcotics Anonymous that she
never had anonymity because whenever she did go to any
of those rehab places in England and the paparazzi would
get pictures break in and so she would leave. So therefore,
(14:28):
you know, it was it was a struggle. How did
I get to that bit? But yeah, so but you know,
essentially a huge responsibility to you know, who she was,
to addiction, to vulnerability, to her family, you know. But
at the same time, then make the movie I wanted
to make.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
And the actress, I Portracer.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Is brilliant, Yeah, and the nicest person. Really, she's amazing.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
How do you cast that? When you were looking at.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Yeah, I mean it was tough because of the at
the officet, I thought, you.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Know, who or how who?
Speaker 2 (15:03):
How on what basically is going to be the right
character traits of the actor who's going to play this?
And I met Marisa, and I met a few others
and we just had, you know, tea casual conversation, and
then a few weeks later I sat with each of
them and we did a read through on camera.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Marisa was the first person in.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
I really want to say, it was like this hugely long,
arduous journey to find her. I said to Nina Golder,
brilliant casting director, I don't want an impersonator, and I
don't want an impersonation. I need someone who can tell
me they can be Amy whine House from within. So
she narrowed it down and I met maybe eight ten
young women, and Marisa was the first girl in, and I,
(15:45):
you know, I was.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
Chatting with her, and I thought, she's very sweet. This
was going to be her first movie.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
You know, I felt like, you know, there was a
lot of challenges for me in my mind, meeting her,
to getting her to a place where she could be
a who was very raw, authentic, gritty, you know, really
you know, tough at times and very vulnerable at others.
And so, you know, I was sort of chit chatting.
I put my eye to the camera. I was sort of,
(16:13):
you know, looking and composing, how it's just going to
do the screen test, and she said, give me a minute.
She looked down, and then she looked up and she
met my eye through the lens, and it was the
most peculiar it's only ever happened to me once before
moment where I just knew it was her. I knew
in an instant before she'd even said anything, because she
(16:34):
she'd done something in that moment between talking to me
as Marisa looking down and looking up as Amy. And
it was this moment within her eyes where I saw
it was like a DNA ship and I thought, if
she can do that in these few seconds, give me
four months and I'll give you.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
And she was astounding.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
And she also said, you know, how are you going
to approach the music and singing because I'm not a singer.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
I sing in the shower, but I don't sing.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
And I said, well, I don't expect that, you know,
if I find the right person to expect them to
sing like Amy were so distinctive. But she went off
and trained in the beginning to just you know, move
her mouth and draw her turn in the same way.
But then she started to study Ella Fitzgerald, sir of
worn all the influences of Amy. And then she started
(17:24):
to get the sound. And we went to I say
we I had Charles Martin as music producer. We went
to watch her progress and I took out my phone
and I filmed her as she sat on the floor
and sang this Amy when how song? What is it
about men? And I filmed her and I had cheers.
I thought, if I can get her to a place
(17:44):
or she can get herself with training to the place
of singing this song in its entirety, and I film
it in this one take like this, the audience will
believe that this is a thank you so much, wow,
well sak you. And she trained and tried and trained,
and I still always obviously had the music to fall
back and sure, but Marisa got to a place where
(18:07):
I realized that emotionally, if she's in a concert hall
and Blake is there and she's singing, there is no
greater love than what I feel for you. I need
to hear the warble in that moment, yea, and not
the studio recording that are you had done so really,
she did the same.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
She did the entire.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Movie Welcome Back to Table for two. Before the break,
(18:49):
we were talking with Sam Taylor Johnson about her new
film Back to Black. Amy Winehouse's life was both beautiful
and tragic, and I'm curious how Sam decided to handle
the movie's conclusion. It's a wild ride to shore and
then of course just devastating because you feel you really
(19:09):
portray at the end the loneliness. Yeah that yeah, in
king Amy's life, it feels, you know, certain people now
not in her life, but you know her Grandmather was
no longer allowed. Her husband's now that's done.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
It's just, you know, the thing is that the challenge
with the movie for me, when I sat down with
our brilliant writer Matt Greenow, she wrote my first movie,
you know, One Boy about John Lennon. He he and
I sat down and I said, I don't not everybody,
but people know that she met a sort of sad
end and it's, you know, a real tragedy and a loss.
(19:49):
But I don't want people leaving the movie theater feeling
depressed and down. I really need to somehow we get
to that moment, but then we're reminded of her brilliance
and we sort of leave on an up left and
I don't want to sort of give anything away, but
you don't leave, you leave the theater. I hope going. God,
(20:10):
she's sad, brilliant. I want to get home right now.
Music learn more about.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Was immediately go and you know, spotify and listen to
that album and you do. You end on an image
of the bird and then but then you end back
in the in the room and the power is there
and you're just like, yes, did you learn something that
you had no idea about me as you were filming
(20:35):
this movie and doing your research, and what is like
the process of your research when you.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Choose to direct the project is I mean, it's it's
I had to absolutely go headlong in that. There's a
few things I learned which I'm so happy to share, because,
for example, you mentioned the bird. I went to visit Janis.
I am his mother, and I said, you know, I
wanted to hear stories. But you know, she's she's quite well,
(21:02):
she's broken, you know, she's suffered, and she's very sort
of shot down on quiet. But she'll sit up and
remember a story and tell me and then she'll retreat
and then she'll sit up.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
And most of those stories.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
I'd heard, it was like she was sort of playing
out to me, you know, what she felt I wanted
to hear, or things like that.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
I don't want to push her.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
I just wanted to sort of sort of sit in
her presence and allow her to just say what she wanted.
And then she said this one story which I didn't
know what. She wasn't documented anywhere, but she said, Amy
had a canary that she loved with a passion.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
This little bird Ava Ava.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
And she said, you know this, this little bird died,
and she took it in a sunglasses case and said
to her mom, we have to go to the cemetery
and we have to do a proper burial for Ava.
So they got in the car, they drove, you know,
however far, and they they buried Ava and they did
this little ceremony and she sang this song as she's
went home that night and she wrote this song called
(22:02):
October Song, which is on her first album. Frank, I
didn't know that story, and so I went to see
a friend of mine the next morning and I told
her the whole story. And then we walked out onto
the Portobello Road, which is like a marketplace, and there
was a guy stood there with a little birdcage with
a canary inside, like a Victorian clock, and it was ticking.
(22:23):
And I looked at my friend and I thank god
had her as a way this. It was the first
person out on the street that we saw. And I said,
how much is that little Victorian bird cage? And he said, oh,
you can have it for fifty pounds, you know. I said, okay,
I'll take it. And then I was telling my husband, Aaron,
the same story. Later that afternoon and we went for
(22:43):
dinner and he said, look behind you, and I looked
behind me and there.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
Was a painting of a canary get out. I know.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
So I thought, Okay, I get the signs. The canary
is in the picture.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
She's telling you, telling me Holy So.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
The canary plays biag in the picture. In the see
that it's it's throughout and it weaves a line. But
it's such a strong, powerful analogy. Fragile songbird, you know.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Okay, So you did fifty seven interviews yesterday.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
I didn't tell anyone that yesterday.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Did anyone ask not the bird?
Speaker 3 (23:17):
No one asks.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
I just want to go you're.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
The only one. And I'm not making that line.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
I mean, I'm not going to choob my own horn.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
But I do.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Making a movie about someone, you have to you have
to go into their space. You have to go into
their emotional space, their headspace. You have to sort of
I mean almost as a director, I almost had to
become like a sort of method actor in a sense
that I had to live her. So that whole canary
incident made me sort of, you know, create my own
(23:50):
sort of if you like spiritual connection in the sense
that not that I was. You know, actually that was
a moment where I was talking to her and now
I and I think you need to take some time out.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
I was in the bathroom.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
It's like, honey, who are you talking to? I was like, oh, Amy,
It's like okay, let's go. Let's But what I would
do was I'd look at every scene each day and
I'd stand on set and I'd just sort of take
a moment and think, how would she feel about this moment?
Is is what I'm you know, doing kind of the
(24:23):
right tone? Is it the right tempo? Is is you
know Marisa hitting that? I'm sure it's hit that, But
you know, is am I creating exactly what I feel
should be sort of endorsed by her? And And I'd
really sort of check in with myself every every day
and every moment that we'd sort of changed scenes, and
(24:46):
and that really came from that Canary moment, because I thought,
you know, I have to sort of honor I guess
you know that that the other side that's sort of
not seen. If that doesn't sound too.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Strange, No, no, no, it actually sounds.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
It's a spiritual side where you just have to kind
of I think I mean spiritual is maybe not the
right word. It's more evocative. I've I've got to invote
exactly what she would be feeling in this moment. Therefore,
I have to live within her. I know, I found
out that.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
I'm letting you have mom to eat your lunch. No,
the rooms that she found herself in when she had
to sort of stand up and say no, this isn't
the way it's going to be. Like when record companies
(25:41):
or what were having you were test saying you know,
this doesn't work or your show is not going to work.
This is what you have to do, and these sort
of ferociousness that has to come out of Again, I
think women specifically that you know, find themselves in rooms
being told by specifically men, well this isn't going to
sell or work, so yeah, you need to do it.
This it's a change, and her being like, yeah, no,
(26:02):
I'm not going to do with that.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Yeah exactly.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
She was very much fucking things like that happened. You know,
she was never molded. And there's a great interview which
I put in the in the movie about that where
she did the talk show and it was the first
talk show. So I also think, you know, she's so ballsy.
She goes on the talk show and Jonathan Ross says,
you know, has anyone tried to mold you? She says, yeah,
they tried me to mold me into.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
I can't do our accent.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
They tried to mold me into a big triangle shape
and I said no, just to be that sort of like.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
She's sitting there watching the interview with her grandmom and
they both crack up.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
The way you show that how Amy's life is, you know,
when it's the time, when it's ending. Yeah, it's done
very beautifully. It's not anything that you would expect somehow
to choose. It's it was tough. It's a very elegant.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Yeah, moment it is.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
And I just knew that it just had to be
because you know what's about to happen, or you know
what's coming, So you have that pit in your stomach
and you're thinking, oh God, oh God. But then just
to sort of leave it in a place of allowing
her to have some grace and respect around her death,
(27:15):
I guess yes, And then look at me. I'm actually
tearing up to me and I've worked three years on
this realm, but it took me We edited that the
last three minutes for about a month. We changed it
and changed it and changed.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
It's crazy, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
It is?
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Even when I was filming on set, there were moments
where we filmed that last when when she's in.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
The big pink, it's beautiful.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
It was our last day of filming, and we were
filming her last day alive. So it was our last day,
so we were having to sort of let her go
essentially as well. And Marisa and I, I mean, we
couldn't hold it together. Oh, it was so difficult because
we'd spent so much time in her music, her world,
her story, and here we were filming her last day
and sort of imagine what that felt like and what
(28:01):
was going through her mind. And then and then also
you know, knowing that the next day that was it.
Our job was done, and we could but it's interesting
because we both thought, well, this is the day we
sort of say goodbye to her, and then, you know,
a year later, I'm still sort of saying about still
talking about it on the press store.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
And it's emotional, and you know her.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
You know, we should we sholt fifty six locations in
forty five days, so we moved at the speed of light.
But there were days where I've just said to Maurice's
okate fil emotional. Today we're telling actually a story that's
so sad about someone so you know, alive in the
way that she sang and what she delivered and told
and the legacy that she left. But you know, the
(28:47):
sadness of a young life is always devastating.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
This project, you were saying, yeah, yes, came out before
the war could even be form. What what do you
look for in the question? And you know, future project Horse.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
It's a good question because you know there's a there's
a moment where you're in your mind, I'm never making
a film again. This is so hard, and it's like
a birthing process where someone says, you know you're going
to have another child and you're like, fuck off.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
This was brutal.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
But there is that moment and then as it gets
goes into the rear view mirror, like, wait, I really
love making movies. Give me another one. So I'm starting
to read, but it's nowhere. Boy, when I did that,
I didn't I think, give me a music biopic or
I want to make the story of John Lennon's early life.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
It was.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
I was just reading and I read the last page
of that script and my face was just wet with tears,
and I felt so moved that I just felt I
was like, I have to make this movie. And actually
with Nowhere Boy, they had another director and I went
in to meet the producers and I was literally I
was savage.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
I was like, anything.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Happens to them, I'm here, I want to make this movie.
I was basically telling them to get them off and
get me in anyway.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
They did. They left to do.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Something else that was a bigger blockbuster kind of thing.
This was a small independent yeah. So I saw my
window and actually that was one of the first moments
where I said, Okay, I'm here, I want to make
this movie. Yeah, And they said, oh, we're going out
to Stephen Freer, Stephen Dawdrey, that David Blabah, and I thought,
there isn't.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
One woman on that list.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
So I shamed them in that moment, which is why
they ultimately gave it to me, because I actually was
just like and also because I stalked them, I knew
what parties they were going to, and I was like, hey,
it's me.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
That's a squeaky will. I mean that squeaky will, that
it was a squeaky will. You know, that's when you know.
And again, I think with you, things speak to you
very viscerally. So when you feel it sounds like when
you get connected to something.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
It is, it's a visceral response.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
You're like, Okay, I'm going to do everything I can, yeah,
to be in that room and get myself in that room.
Which also goes back to the beginning, which is what's frustrating,
is that it seems you have to start a point
a again again. You know, you've done the work, you've proven,
you know, you're showing, you're giving the gift of your talent.
(31:27):
You shouldn't necessarily.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
After start at the beginning.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Yeah, I know, thank you.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
I agree, we say bullshit.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
I don't know next.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
I kind of feel like I want to make something
pure fiction absolutely no one. I don't want any anything
to do with anyone that wants to lift I understand
it because the responsibility weighs heavy on you during the
process and it's you know, and it's important that it's
pertinent and this has been a great experience, but I
(31:58):
could do with a break from that.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
From Yeah, thanks for joining us on Table for two.
(32:22):
Sam Taryla Johnson is not only a great director, but
an accomplished photographer. Her series Crying Men is a powerful
collection of famous actors letting their guard down. She has
photographed everyone from Laurence Fishbourne to our mutual friend Tom Ford.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
I took Tom's I want so, I was punds saying,
so this is where.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
You put the light here, you put the foil under here.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
And well, that's the question I'm leading to. When you
think about taking someone's picture, what is what you know?
How do you what's the lens that you see first?
Like if you were to look at me or a room,
what's is there something that you'd have to connect with?
Speaker 2 (33:07):
I mean, specifically, if I'm doing portraits, which I love doing,
I I really just find who that person is in
a snapshot. And I guess seeing Maurica in that moment
was like finding her soul in a snapshot.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
I guess, so it is.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
It's just sort of like pulling out that sense of
who is this person on a very fundamentally deep level.
And sometimes you know, people are so layered and guarded
and complex that you can't always get there. So then
I did a whole series called The Crying Men, which
was twenty seven portraits sort of actors crying, and boy
do you see the soul when you ask someone's cry?
Speaker 3 (33:43):
Wow, because all guards.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Goes down and even if someone's you know, of those
twenty seven, I would say probably twenty really cried, right,
and it's you know, it was Ed Harris, Paul Newman,
Benicio del Toro, I did a young unknown Ryan Gosling.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
You know.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
It's a series that was really interesting, and I did
it over three years and then there were seven people.
I just put the tearstick in, put some mental in
my pa. It'll look the same, and to be fair,
it still works because even even with that, there's something about,
you know, the pain in the eyes, either physically or emotionally.
Then let's there's a window in and it's a really
(34:20):
interesting series in that respect.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
What made you think of that when you did the series? Yes, like,
you're brilliant, you're so sweet. I had the idea, I mean,
what happened in my life down?
Speaker 2 (34:33):
You're cool?
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Well, tell me about that.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
That was an interesting one. It started out actually that
it was a GQ project of a Hollywood portfolio during
Oscar season? Right would I do it? I say, sure,
I lived in London. Who doesn't want to fly to
La have a bit of sunshine and meet loads of
really interesting people. So I said, but again, can I
do creatively what I want to do? Absolutely? But they didn't.
(34:58):
They didn't take into account.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
Aren't.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
But what I was then going to ask every single
one of those actors was to cry. But I didn't
want any of them to know. So Benieth, it was
also a bless him was the first in the room,
and I was, of course a little nervous, and I said, okay,
so you are the idea is that I have for
this portfolio as I'd like you to cry?
Speaker 3 (35:17):
And he was like nope.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
I was like, wait, what do you mean No, I
didn't have I did not anticipate no, because I thought
I thought actors liked to show their skills, you know,
and this is a particular skill. And I don't want
just a projection of ego and a Hollywood portfolio.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
I wanted soul.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
And I knew that I had scheduled quite brilliantly. I
had Poor Newman on my schedule for like a couple
of weeks later, and I and I just said, well,
poor Newman did it, so basically bare face lie. But
I was a moment of survival also excuse myself, and
he said he did.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
I was like yeah. In my head, I was like, yeah,
he's going to.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
Which I had to whispered so I can, and he
was like, all right, let's try.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
And then he did it.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
And so then the next one was Brian Gosling, and
I'm like, Benicio del Toro did it. And then there
was Ed Harris and I was Ryan Gosling and Delatoria
I did it, you know, And then it went on
the journey and it was an amazing process, but it
did take three years. But I realized in the last
sort of few that I was doing. The last person
I did was Forest Whitaker, who had sort of chased
(36:26):
around the world trying to get him to do it,
and finally we were both in.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
This point was to kind of out of the bag.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
No amazingly, no one, that's crazy, amazingly.
Speaker 3 (36:35):
No one.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Sam's coming my picture way And.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
I said to Forest Whittaker and I literally couldn't even
because it was film.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
I showed it on film.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
I couldn't get the film in the camera quick enough
he was already crying, right, he was a big, big,
sort of just absolutely bawling his eyes out in the
corner in the room. And I just can't do this anymore.
I'm finding this so emotionally challenging. And I got on
the plane a beautiful picture. I got on the plane home.
So why am I doing?
Speaker 3 (37:03):
What is this?
Speaker 2 (37:04):
And I realized that I was actually asking them to
grieve me having come through such a sort of hard
battle with cancer at that time, and that I was
just so sort of like right, done that, let's go,
you know, next chapter. And I hadn't ever processed that.
And I sometimes to say, you know, as an artist
or a filmmaker, sometimes it works three steps ahead of
(37:26):
you and you have to catch up to why or
what it's about. And in my realization of that, I
did actually then go great, done via other people, let's
move on, next chapter.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
Yeah, but no, it did.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
It brought me into a place of, Okay, I think
I may have to reflect on what I've actually experienced
and not always do this thing of you know, dust
myself down and get up again.
Speaker 3 (37:47):
It was just you to come full circle, to come
full circle.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
It was so interesting and actually Paul Newman did do it.
But he said to me, he was so amazing. He said,
of all of everyone, turned up on his own in
a cab, we did it in this suite, and his
you know, his his tough agent said be quick, get
him in, get him out.
Speaker 3 (38:11):
I was like, okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
And he arrived and I said, I said, I know
I have to be quick. He was like, you don't.
He said, why don't we just sit and have some tea?
Would you like some cake? Should we sit and just chat?
And I was like amazing. I sat, we had tea
and cake, and I said, okay, let's do the pictures.
And and then I look again. I looked through the
lens and I thought, holy Molly, it's poor Neiman. Whereas
(38:34):
before he was just this very sweet older guy. We
were having tea, and as soon as I put my
hand to the lens lens, I was like, fuck, it's
por new And again it was this and I literally
was going left looking at him and then right looking
through the lens, and it was incredible, the discrepancy between
the person sat there and then what shone through the lens.
(38:55):
And it's it's amazing because the camera when they say
you know, the camera, you know, loves you.
Speaker 3 (39:02):
The camera, the lens just like ate him up.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
It was like it was like he just was a
movie star in the kind of compounded glass by the time.
He just had this this beautiful, kind of translucent, sparkling stuff.
That's one of my favorite pictures. But he did say
he was like, it was like, honey, no one wants
to see me cry.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
I was like, okay, good, you just look sad.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
He's the only one that got away with And I
couldn't say, well, Venezio del Toro, did it respect?
Speaker 1 (39:38):
Do you have anything like that coming up? No?
Speaker 2 (39:41):
But I did feel like maybe now that I finished
this film, I could just sort of think about my.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
Art world life.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
But I kind of exited that career and it's really
hard I found to get back in.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Really, I'm like, wait, because they just move on without you.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
Oh my beautiful pictures.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
I am amazing my yes, I'll give you them.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
It's so strange, I think because I was sort of,
you know, in my art world life with such a
sort of high profile art dealer that people are maybe nervous.
I don't know, I just or maybe I'm not as
good as I think.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
I am. I don't know, Sam, you are as good
as you think you are.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
If there's any art dealers out there, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
Seriously, I just want to say, having lunch with you today,
it is truly great.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
And like I said, it's the thing I was most
looking forward to.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Crazy and your gift of giving this movie to us
and telling any story you know, back to Black is
it's an incredible movie and it's again you're welcome. It's
a story of a woman who is no longer with us,
and yet she's with us, and you've you told her
(41:04):
story with respect and love and generosity. And I can
tear and cry here again because that's your gift. So
thank you so much for joining me today too, and
well have we will break many breads.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
To and I'll finish off the French.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Yes, So now we're gonna Thanks for joining me. We'll
see you soon. Table for two with Bruce Bosi is
produced by iHeart Radio seven three seven Park and Airmail.
Our executive producers are Bruce Bosi and Nathan King. Our
(41:46):
supervising producer and editor is Dylan Fagan. Table for two
is researched and written by Jack Sullivan. Our sound engineers
are mel B Klein, Jesse Crainich and Jesse Funk. Our
music supervisor is Randall. Poster Our talent booking is done
by Jane Sarkin. Table for two. Social media manager is
Gracie Wiener. Special thanks to Amy Sugarman, Uni Scherer, Kevin Uvane,
(42:11):
Bobby Bauer, Alison Kanter, Graber, Barbara Jen, Jeff Klein, and
the staff at the Tower Bar in the world famous
Sunset Tower Hotel in Hollywood. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.
Hey everyone, thanks for pulling up a chair today for
Table for two. This time we're back at the Sunset
Tower in Los Angeles for another great lunch.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
May I get a chop seted with salmon? I have
a sight of Frays.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
The classic just they're excellent here too. Our guest today
started out as part of a group known as the
Young British Artist. Prior to becoming a successful film director,
she was an acclaimed photographer. She has directed films such
as Nowhere Boy, which tells the tale of a teenage
John Lennon. Her most recent film, Back to Black, is
(00:42):
a stirring biopic of Amy Winehouse's life. There that's right,
we're having lunch with the incredible Sam Taylor John So
we're going to discuss Back to Black, her photography, and
(01:04):
a lot more So. Pull up a chair and grab
a glass of rose, because this is going to be
a wonderful conversation. I'm Bruce Bosi and this is my
podcast Table for two. Welcome to Table for two. I'm excited,
(01:27):
so exciting.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Like I said, it's my favorite thing. But I looked
at my crazy schedule. I did fifty seven interviews in
one day yesterday.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
No, yes, so if i'm a little holes.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Oh my god, well we need would you like something
to drink?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Ju I'm good with water, thank you. I'm going to
take care for my jongly jewelry so I don't drive
you crazy.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Back there hot with regular mos. Wait a minute, yeahay, Well,
first of all, if you've pulled up a chair today
on table for two, we're having lunch with an incredible woman,
a director. You have a movie Back to Black, which
is coming out the story of Amy Winehouse, which I
have a lot of questions. You've directed big blockbusters. You're
(02:12):
an artist, you're a photographer, you're a bread You're like
this encourags. We are having mom of four kids.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Let's try that, Imma four kids.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Where we often see you in the neighborhood. Yeah, Sam
Taylor Johnson, how are you.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
I'm good, I'm good.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Welcome.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
My voice is a little rass beaver.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Tell me about what you're on the tours.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
I'm on the Presto and it's interesting. This is my
fourth movie and this presst I'm loving it, and I
don't love prestols. I don't know if you ever hear
anyone say they like a presto now, but it's so
amazing when you get to talk about something that you
feel passionate about and yeah, and it sounds false, but
it's so true. I am so passionate about this film
(02:52):
and and I love talking about it, so I don't
I don't get tired of it. Although yeah, maybe fifty
six and fifty seven I was like, oh God, I'm done.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
I beg did you know Amy personally? Had you ever
met her past cross in London?
Speaker 2 (03:06):
No, It's interesting. I knew so many people in common.
We had so many friends, and so we were connected
through friends. But because maybe I had small kids and
I would you know, early to bed she was, you know,
famously quite a nocturnal animal. She I'd always kind of
catch the tailwind of her sort of that I derived
(03:27):
somewhere and people would say, oh, she's just left right interesting. Yeah,
but I did see. One of the things I'm so
grateful for is that a friend of mine took me
to the Young Voices of Jazz almost Talent night at
Ronnie Scott's, and she was one of the young Voices
of jazz. She was just this I don't even know
how old she was, probably not even twenty and uh,
(03:49):
and she was singing in the in this show in
the audience watched.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Isn't that what's so fascinating about life? Sam? There's moment
these moments, Yeah, never knowing down the path of life
that you're directing and telling a story of her life.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
And then we ended up filming there. We filmed in
Ronnie Scott's the Jazz Club in London, where I had
seen her perform, and so it kind of gave me
the energy of how to create that scene that I'd
been there and I'd sort of had a sense of
you know, who she was in that moment and then yeah,
it reflects on it now kind of.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Yeah, a lot of that. That's wild this film there.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Well, I want to I really want to talk about
her and your connection with her, But like, you've had
quite a story, really life yourself really cool, like on
a level that I don't think got dark like Amy's
life became, but you know, running around with really interesting
artists in London. Can you talk a little bit about your.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Sort of Yeah, I mean I had I had my
share of the darkest quite sort of turbulent childhood and
upbringing and then that led me, I guess, to becoming
an artist. If I get you know, as a shortcut
way of sort of saying, you know, interesting, turbulent, complex
dark at times has led me to where I am now.
(05:14):
I often think, so there are times where you know,
obviously when you're in it as a young person, it's
it's you know, it's terrible. And then as a sort
of more mature person who you know, I create movies,
I create art photography. Yes, I can see the complexities
of what I went through feeding into that. So am
I thankful and grateful? Probably I couldn't allow myself to
(05:37):
say that, But at the same time, I know that
there's an importance to what I went through in terms
of how I then sort of serve what I do,
I guess to the world.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Yeah, I think that it's fascinating when you have to
look at your life and you have a some twenty
twenty vision looking back, but knowing that without the difficult times, yeah,
the darker times, you don't get to really who you
are and be the visionary that you specifically are and
have the lens and the eyes.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Without that no, and I sort of went into the
art world. You know, I was sort of very wide eyed,
and you know, it was at the time where sort
of Damien Hurst and Tracy m and everyone was sort
of becoming during that time, and I was just so
sort of like, I don't know, over excited by it,
and I kind of again kind of caught the tailwind
(06:27):
of that and was exhibiting alongside those those people. And
then I had Angelica, who is my first she's twenty
seven now, and then within six months I was diagnosed
with cancer. So just as I was sort of in
my you know, pivotal moment of I you know, I'm
an young mother, but I'm also sort of becoming a
(06:47):
celebrated it all kind of crashed in and so there's
so much you had to answer that question at the beginning,
and it just like it told me through I'm like, okay,
let's sp talk with so don't want to do too much,
but I think you know all of that again, it
sort of all feeds in and again, am I grateful
to it? Not? But I know at the same time
(07:10):
it gives me a lens and a perspective to make
the movies I do.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Yeah, you've survived cancer twice, You've had this, you know,
these moments that are just have life alter and life
changing that form you and your level of humanity. Just
you know, Sam is like having met you and you've
been to the house and run into each other in
the neighborhood. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Lucky.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
You know there's so much warmth and just such kindness
and I think that is that that's you can see
that in your art and you see it in your
photography and things.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
And you can say it on Brian's windscreen when he
hikes and I put a parking cast in there when.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
So there's acts of generosity, right. So we will hike
in an area where Sam lives, and we will park
where we shutn't and we'll come back and won't have
a ticket because you have come out seen the car
and you're like, oh, this is Brian's car, and went
(08:06):
very sweet. You know.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
I've moved back to England now and I left that
beautiful place behind and I went for a hike around
Running Canyon this morning. I was like, wait, why did
I this is so beautiful?
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Why did you live?
Speaker 2 (08:20):
I think it was just, you know, post pandemic everything
you know, the lens shifts, doesn't it, And there was
something about needing to be home and taking the kids
home had grown up essentially in la and just sort
of showing them, you know, our roots and where we're
from and and just sort of existing in London. And
(08:41):
and you know, I think they would equally come back
and me and say are we grateful? I'm not so sure,
because you know, they left behind friends and you know,
one of my kids is a surfer tennis player and
she's like, yeah, thanks, thanks a bunch. The ocean's freezing
and nowhere near.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
What has been difficult, you know, the being a woman
and being a woman in this business specifically, and what
we've seen happen. Is there a challenge that you comfortable
sort of sh.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
I mean the challenge is that I feel like every
movie I make, you know, I'm back to ground zero
the next one. And then I see my male counterparts
and I'm like, wait, how come you got off of that?
It didn't even come to my door? Wait, this is
there's an indiscrepancy here. And I feel like I grew
up hustling and I never have stopped the hustle. And
(09:35):
you know, I'm a sort of beat on the door. Yeah,
and then and I've never stopped. I really, in fact,
this is the only time I felt like this back
to Black and Amy Winehouse, for it was such a gift.
It came to me I didn't hear about it, and go, wait,
I need to do that. I'm going to pitch myself
for it.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Wait.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
It came to me via our producer, Alison Owen, and
she said, would you be interested in making the Amy Winner?
And I was saying yes before before I'd even finished
processing what that would mean and the responsibility, especially of
what I was taking on and and but that was
the first time where I felt like that I didn't
need to hustle. I had the job, and I knew
(10:12):
immediately what I was doing, and I just I just
sort of got into what felt like the fastest car ever.
I felt that some some movies to get them made,
you have to push a boulder uphill through treatment, and
sometimes they don't get made and you're still, you know,
pushing it. But this one, I feel like I'm in.
I'm on a sort of high speed train or a
faster sort of keeping up to that.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Yeah, that's interesting, you know, you the hustle, the fact
that no matter what, even after your last success project,
you're still finding yourself for a position. Yeah, A woman
to have to hustle and get yourself in the room
and it's.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Yeah and something like this.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
It felt good to be a woman directing this story
about Amy, who you know. Had the reason, I mean,
one of the multiple reasons I wanted to do it
was I felt like growing up in you know, living
close to her in London, knowing people around her, but
also watching the intensity of her her sort of battles
(11:10):
and vulnerabilities played out in real time through the paparazzi lens,
you know, post her death, you know, the sort of
it being sort of fetishized in a way and picked apart.
And then there's the documentary, which I think was brilliant
by the way, but I felt like, again it was
sort of you know, picking apart her life, and I
wanted to almost go, okay, I want to make this
(11:31):
through her lens and her perspective, so that the because
you know, like the tragedy and the sense of her
being a victim, it really eclipsed the brilliance of her
music and who she was. So I kind of went
into it in the lens of, I guess, quite a
sort of protective, nurturing face.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Yes, you can really feel that in your movie. The
it's a beautiful movie and the album is you forget
like how prolific this album was, and her death and
her story eclipses sort of the brilliance of this woman
and her voice and her voice and her relationship. So
(12:08):
you know what was the most when you're making a
movie about someone who is a real person and has
family that's still alive. Yeah, what are the challenges in
making sure?
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Tough?
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Hay respect.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Yeah, it's tough because the offset I said, you know,
I have to make the movie I want to make,
and I have to be allowed to so you know
who has what rights and how do I navigate that?
And Allison said, we have all the music rights, we
have Sony and Universal, we have every publishing everything, so
(12:41):
you are not bar olden too anyone. And she said,
and you know everything that you want to use that's
in the public domain. You know, we can work with.
And so I didn't have to be beholden to anything
or anyone. But at the same time, I met with
Mitch and Janis, who are her parents, out of respect
because I thought I'm making a movie about their daughter,
(13:04):
and you know, and there's a lot of heavy judgment
around particularly as well as Blake, her husband. But Blake,
I had so many scheduled meetings, but he got so frightened.
I think of meeting me in terms of maybe what
my perception and was of him or the point of
view I was going to take.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
So I never met him. But Jack who plays.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Him, spent time with him, and Jack O'Connell. It's brilliant actor,
and he plays it with such humanity, not just a
sort of one dimensional villain.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
No, you don't leave, yeah that your film thinking of
him as a villain. No, not the father, the father.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Because I felt like, if I'm making the movie in
her perspective, she loved her father and her family, and
she loved her husband. Therefore, if I'm true to her
guiding me through this story through her music and her lyrics,
then I have to look at them with love and
my judgment and everyone else's is irrelevant. So therefore, to
make you know a story essentially of addiction without judgment,
(14:06):
and to look at you know the process of what
she went through in the sense that I often think
you know with alcoholics anonymous on narcotics Anonymous that she
never had anonymity because whenever she did go to any
of those rehab places in England and the paparazzi would
get pictures break in and so she would leave. So therefore,
(14:28):
you know, it was it was a struggle. How did
I get to that bit? But yeah, so but you know,
essentially a huge responsibility to you know, who she was,
to addiction, to vulnerability, to her family, you know. But
at the same time, then make the movie I wanted
to make.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
And the actress, I Portracer.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Is brilliant, Yeah, and the nicest person. Really, she's amazing.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
How do you cast that? When you were looking at.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Yeah, I mean it was tough because of the at
the officet, I thought, you.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Know, who or how who?
Speaker 2 (15:03):
How on what basically is going to be the right
character traits of the actor who's going to play this?
And I met Marisa, and I met a few others
and we just had, you know, tea casual conversation, and
then a few weeks later I sat with each of
them and we did a read through on camera.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Marisa was the first person in.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
I really want to say, it was like this hugely long,
arduous journey to find her. I said to Nina Golder,
brilliant casting director, I don't want an impersonator, and I
don't want an impersonation. I need someone who can tell
me they can be Amy whine House from within. So
she narrowed it down and I met maybe eight ten
young women, and Marisa was the first girl in, and I,
(15:45):
you know, I was.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
Chatting with her, and I thought, she's very sweet. This
was going to be her first movie.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
You know, I felt like, you know, there was a
lot of challenges for me in my mind, meeting her,
to getting her to a place where she could be
a who was very raw, authentic, gritty, you know, really
you know, tough at times and very vulnerable at others.
And so, you know, I was sort of chit chatting.
I put my eye to the camera. I was sort of,
(16:13):
you know, looking and composing, how it's just going to
do the screen test, and she said, give me a minute.
She looked down, and then she looked up and she
met my eye through the lens, and it was the
most peculiar it's only ever happened to me once before
moment where I just knew it was her. I knew
in an instant before she'd even said anything, because she
(16:34):
she'd done something in that moment between talking to me
as Marisa looking down and looking up as Amy. And
it was this moment within her eyes where I saw
it was like a DNA ship and I thought, if
she can do that in these few seconds, give me
four months and I'll give you.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
And she was astounding.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
And she also said, you know, how are you going
to approach the music and singing because I'm not a singer.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
I sing in the shower, but I don't sing.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
And I said, well, I don't expect that, you know,
if I find the right person to expect them to
sing like Amy were so distinctive. But she went off
and trained in the beginning to just you know, move
her mouth and draw her turn in the same way.
But then she started to study Ella Fitzgerald, sir of
worn all the influences of Amy. And then she started
(17:24):
to get the sound. And we went to I say
we I had Charles Martin as music producer. We went
to watch her progress and I took out my phone
and I filmed her as she sat on the floor
and sang this Amy when how song? What is it
about men? And I filmed her and I had cheers.
I thought, if I can get her to a place
(17:44):
or she can get herself with training to the place
of singing this song in its entirety, and I film
it in this one take like this, the audience will
believe that this is a thank you so much, wow,
well sak you. And she trained and tried and trained,
and I still always obviously had the music to fall
back and sure, but Marisa got to a place where
(18:07):
I realized that emotionally, if she's in a concert hall
and Blake is there and she's singing, there is no
greater love than what I feel for you. I need
to hear the warble in that moment, yea, and not
the studio recording that are you had done so really,
she did the same.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
She did the entire.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Movie Welcome Back to Table for two. Before the break,
(18:49):
we were talking with Sam Taylor Johnson about her new
film Back to Black. Amy Winehouse's life was both beautiful
and tragic, and I'm curious how Sam decided to handle
the movie's conclusion. It's a wild ride to shore and
then of course just devastating because you feel you really
(19:09):
portray at the end the loneliness. Yeah that yeah, in
king Amy's life, it feels, you know, certain people now
not in her life, but you know her Grandmather was
no longer allowed. Her husband's now that's done.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
It's just, you know, the thing is that the challenge
with the movie for me, when I sat down with
our brilliant writer Matt Greenow, she wrote my first movie,
you know, One Boy about John Lennon. He he and
I sat down and I said, I don't not everybody,
but people know that she met a sort of sad
end and it's, you know, a real tragedy and a loss.
(19:49):
But I don't want people leaving the movie theater feeling
depressed and down. I really need to somehow we get
to that moment, but then we're reminded of her brilliance
and we sort of leave on an up left and
I don't want to sort of give anything away, but
you don't leave, you leave the theater. I hope going. God,
(20:10):
she's sad, brilliant. I want to get home right now.
Music learn more about.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Was immediately go and you know, spotify and listen to
that album and you do. You end on an image
of the bird and then but then you end back
in the in the room and the power is there
and you're just like, yes, did you learn something that
you had no idea about me as you were filming
(20:35):
this movie and doing your research, and what is like
the process of your research when you.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Choose to direct the project is I mean, it's it's
I had to absolutely go headlong in that. There's a
few things I learned which I'm so happy to share, because,
for example, you mentioned the bird. I went to visit Janis.
I am his mother, and I said, you know, I
wanted to hear stories. But you know, she's she's quite well,
(21:02):
she's broken, you know, she's suffered, and she's very sort
of shot down on quiet. But she'll sit up and
remember a story and tell me and then she'll retreat
and then she'll sit up.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
And most of those stories.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
I'd heard, it was like she was sort of playing
out to me, you know, what she felt I wanted
to hear, or things like that.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
I don't want to push her.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
I just wanted to sort of sort of sit in
her presence and allow her to just say what she wanted.
And then she said this one story which I didn't
know what. She wasn't documented anywhere, but she said, Amy
had a canary that she loved with a passion.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
This little bird Ava Ava.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
And she said, you know this, this little bird died,
and she took it in a sunglasses case and said
to her mom, we have to go to the cemetery
and we have to do a proper burial for Ava.
So they got in the car, they drove, you know,
however far, and they they buried Ava and they did
this little ceremony and she sang this song as she's
went home that night and she wrote this song called
(22:02):
October Song, which is on her first album. Frank, I
didn't know that story, and so I went to see
a friend of mine the next morning and I told
her the whole story. And then we walked out onto
the Portobello Road, which is like a marketplace, and there
was a guy stood there with a little birdcage with
a canary inside, like a Victorian clock, and it was ticking.
(22:23):
And I looked at my friend and I thank god
had her as a way this. It was the first
person out on the street that we saw. And I said,
how much is that little Victorian bird cage? And he said, oh,
you can have it for fifty pounds, you know. I said, okay,
I'll take it. And then I was telling my husband, Aaron,
the same story. Later that afternoon and we went for
(22:43):
dinner and he said, look behind you, and I looked
behind me and there.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
Was a painting of a canary get out. I know.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
So I thought, Okay, I get the signs. The canary
is in the picture.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
She's telling you, telling me Holy So.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
The canary plays biag in the picture. In the see
that it's it's throughout and it weaves a line. But
it's such a strong, powerful analogy. Fragile songbird, you know.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Okay, So you did fifty seven interviews yesterday.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
I didn't tell anyone that yesterday.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Did anyone ask not the bird?
Speaker 3 (23:17):
No one asks.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
I just want to go you're.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
The only one. And I'm not making that line.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
I mean, I'm not going to choob my own horn.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
But I do.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Making a movie about someone, you have to you have
to go into their space. You have to go into
their emotional space, their headspace. You have to sort of
I mean almost as a director, I almost had to
become like a sort of method actor in a sense
that I had to live her. So that whole canary
incident made me sort of, you know, create my own
(23:50):
sort of if you like spiritual connection in the sense
that not that I was. You know, actually that was
a moment where I was talking to her and now
I and I think you need to take some time out.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
I was in the bathroom.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
It's like, honey, who are you talking to? I was like, oh, Amy,
It's like okay, let's go. Let's But what I would
do was I'd look at every scene each day and
I'd stand on set and I'd just sort of take
a moment and think, how would she feel about this moment?
Is is what I'm you know, doing kind of the
(24:23):
right tone? Is it the right tempo? Is is you
know Marisa hitting that? I'm sure it's hit that, But
you know, is am I creating exactly what I feel
should be sort of endorsed by her? And And I'd
really sort of check in with myself every every day
and every moment that we'd sort of changed scenes, and
(24:46):
and that really came from that Canary moment, because I thought,
you know, I have to sort of honor I guess
you know that that the other side that's sort of
not seen. If that doesn't sound too.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Strange, No, no, no, it actually sounds.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
It's a spiritual side where you just have to kind
of I think I mean spiritual is maybe not the
right word. It's more evocative. I've I've got to invote
exactly what she would be feeling in this moment. Therefore,
I have to live within her. I know, I found
out that.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
I'm letting you have mom to eat your lunch. No,
the rooms that she found herself in when she had
to sort of stand up and say no, this isn't
the way it's going to be. Like when record companies
(25:41):
or what were having you were test saying you know,
this doesn't work or your show is not going to work.
This is what you have to do, and these sort
of ferociousness that has to come out of Again, I
think women specifically that you know, find themselves in rooms
being told by specifically men, well this isn't going to
sell or work, so yeah, you need to do it.
This it's a change, and her being like, yeah, no,
(26:02):
I'm not going to do with that.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Yeah exactly.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
She was very much fucking things like that happened. You know,
she was never molded. And there's a great interview which
I put in the in the movie about that where
she did the talk show and it was the first
talk show. So I also think, you know, she's so ballsy.
She goes on the talk show and Jonathan Ross says,
you know, has anyone tried to mold you? She says, yeah,
they tried me to mold me into.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
I can't do our accent.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
They tried to mold me into a big triangle shape
and I said no, just to be that sort of like.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
She's sitting there watching the interview with her grandmom and
they both crack up.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
The way you show that how Amy's life is, you know,
when it's the time, when it's ending. Yeah, it's done
very beautifully. It's not anything that you would expect somehow
to choose. It's it was tough. It's a very elegant.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Yeah, moment it is.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
And I just knew that it just had to be
because you know what's about to happen, or you know
what's coming, So you have that pit in your stomach
and you're thinking, oh God, oh God. But then just
to sort of leave it in a place of allowing
her to have some grace and respect around her death,
(27:15):
I guess yes, And then look at me. I'm actually
tearing up to me and I've worked three years on
this realm, but it took me We edited that the
last three minutes for about a month. We changed it
and changed it and changed.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
It's crazy, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
It is?
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Even when I was filming on set, there were moments
where we filmed that last when when she's in.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
The big pink, it's beautiful.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
It was our last day of filming, and we were
filming her last day alive. So it was our last day,
so we were having to sort of let her go
essentially as well. And Marisa and I, I mean, we
couldn't hold it together. Oh, it was so difficult because
we'd spent so much time in her music, her world,
her story, and here we were filming her last day
and sort of imagine what that felt like and what
(28:01):
was going through her mind. And then and then also
you know, knowing that the next day that was it.
Our job was done, and we could but it's interesting
because we both thought, well, this is the day we
sort of say goodbye to her, and then, you know,
a year later, I'm still sort of saying about still
talking about it on the press store.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
And it's emotional, and you know her.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
You know, we should we sholt fifty six locations in
forty five days, so we moved at the speed of light.
But there were days where I've just said to Maurice's
okate fil emotional. Today we're telling actually a story that's
so sad about someone so you know, alive in the
way that she sang and what she delivered and told
and the legacy that she left. But you know, the
(28:47):
sadness of a young life is always devastating.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
This project, you were saying, yeah, yes, came out before
the war could even be form. What what do you
look for in the question? And you know, future project Horse.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
It's a good question because you know there's a there's
a moment where you're in your mind, I'm never making
a film again. This is so hard, and it's like
a birthing process where someone says, you know you're going
to have another child and you're like, fuck off.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
This was brutal.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
But there is that moment and then as it gets
goes into the rear view mirror, like, wait, I really
love making movies. Give me another one. So I'm starting
to read, but it's nowhere. Boy, when I did that,
I didn't I think, give me a music biopic or
I want to make the story of John Lennon's early life.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
It was.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
I was just reading and I read the last page
of that script and my face was just wet with tears,
and I felt so moved that I just felt I
was like, I have to make this movie. And actually
with Nowhere Boy, they had another director and I went
in to meet the producers and I was literally I
was savage.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
I was like, anything.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Happens to them, I'm here, I want to make this movie.
I was basically telling them to get them off and
get me in anyway.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
They did. They left to do.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Something else that was a bigger blockbuster kind of thing.
This was a small independent yeah. So I saw my
window and actually that was one of the first moments
where I said, Okay, I'm here, I want to make
this movie. Yeah, And they said, oh, we're going out
to Stephen Freer, Stephen Dawdrey, that David Blabah, and I thought,
there isn't.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
One woman on that list.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
So I shamed them in that moment, which is why
they ultimately gave it to me, because I actually was
just like and also because I stalked them, I knew
what parties they were going to, and I was like, hey,
it's me.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
That's a squeaky will. I mean that squeaky will, that
it was a squeaky will. You know, that's when you know.
And again, I think with you, things speak to you
very viscerally. So when you feel it sounds like when
you get connected to something.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
It is, it's a visceral response.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
You're like, Okay, I'm going to do everything I can, yeah,
to be in that room and get myself in that room.
Which also goes back to the beginning, which is what's frustrating,
is that it seems you have to start a point
a again again. You know, you've done the work, you've proven,
you know, you're showing, you're giving the gift of your talent.
(31:27):
You shouldn't necessarily.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
After start at the beginning.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Yeah, I know, thank you.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
I agree, we say bullshit.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
I don't know next.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
I kind of feel like I want to make something
pure fiction absolutely no one. I don't want any anything
to do with anyone that wants to lift I understand
it because the responsibility weighs heavy on you during the
process and it's you know, and it's important that it's
pertinent and this has been a great experience, but I
(31:58):
could do with a break from that.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
From Yeah, thanks for joining us on Table for two.
(32:22):
Sam Taryla Johnson is not only a great director, but
an accomplished photographer. Her series Crying Men is a powerful
collection of famous actors letting their guard down. She has
photographed everyone from Laurence Fishbourne to our mutual friend Tom Ford.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
I took Tom's I want so, I was punds saying,
so this is where.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
You put the light here, you put the foil under here.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
And well, that's the question I'm leading to. When you
think about taking someone's picture, what is what you know?
How do you what's the lens that you see first?
Like if you were to look at me or a room,
what's is there something that you'd have to connect with?
Speaker 2 (33:07):
I mean, specifically, if I'm doing portraits, which I love doing,
I I really just find who that person is in
a snapshot. And I guess seeing Maurica in that moment
was like finding her soul in a snapshot.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
I guess, so it is.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
It's just sort of like pulling out that sense of
who is this person on a very fundamentally deep level.
And sometimes you know, people are so layered and guarded
and complex that you can't always get there. So then
I did a whole series called The Crying Men, which
was twenty seven portraits sort of actors crying, and boy
do you see the soul when you ask someone's cry?
Speaker 3 (33:43):
Wow, because all guards.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Goes down and even if someone's you know, of those
twenty seven, I would say probably twenty really cried, right,
and it's you know, it was Ed Harris, Paul Newman,
Benicio del Toro, I did a young unknown Ryan Gosling.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
You know.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
It's a series that was really interesting, and I did
it over three years and then there were seven people.
I just put the tearstick in, put some mental in
my pa. It'll look the same, and to be fair,
it still works because even even with that, there's something about,
you know, the pain in the eyes, either physically or emotionally.
Then let's there's a window in and it's a really
(34:20):
interesting series in that respect.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
What made you think of that when you did the series? Yes, like,
you're brilliant, you're so sweet. I had the idea, I mean,
what happened in my life down?
Speaker 2 (34:33):
You're cool?
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Well, tell me about that.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
That was an interesting one. It started out actually that
it was a GQ project of a Hollywood portfolio during
Oscar season? Right would I do it? I say, sure,
I lived in London. Who doesn't want to fly to
La have a bit of sunshine and meet loads of
really interesting people. So I said, but again, can I
do creatively what I want to do? Absolutely? But they didn't.
(34:58):
They didn't take into account.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
Aren't.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
But what I was then going to ask every single
one of those actors was to cry. But I didn't
want any of them to know. So Benieth, it was
also a bless him was the first in the room,
and I was, of course a little nervous, and I said, okay,
so you are the idea is that I have for
this portfolio as I'd like you to cry?
Speaker 3 (35:17):
And he was like nope.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
I was like, wait, what do you mean No, I
didn't have I did not anticipate no, because I thought
I thought actors liked to show their skills, you know,
and this is a particular skill. And I don't want
just a projection of ego and a Hollywood portfolio.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
I wanted soul.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
And I knew that I had scheduled quite brilliantly. I
had Poor Newman on my schedule for like a couple
of weeks later, and I and I just said, well,
poor Newman did it, so basically bare face lie. But
I was a moment of survival also excuse myself, and
he said he did.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
I was like yeah. In my head, I was like, yeah,
he's going to.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
Which I had to whispered so I can, and he
was like, all right, let's try.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
And then he did it.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
And so then the next one was Brian Gosling, and
I'm like, Benicio del Toro did it. And then there
was Ed Harris and I was Ryan Gosling and Delatoria
I did it, you know, And then it went on
the journey and it was an amazing process, but it
did take three years. But I realized in the last
sort of few that I was doing. The last person
I did was Forest Whitaker, who had sort of chased
(36:26):
around the world trying to get him to do it,
and finally we were both in.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
This point was to kind of out of the bag.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
No amazingly, no one, that's crazy, amazingly.
Speaker 3 (36:35):
No one.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Sam's coming my picture way And.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
I said to Forest Whittaker and I literally couldn't even
because it was film.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
I showed it on film.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
I couldn't get the film in the camera quick enough
he was already crying, right, he was a big, big,
sort of just absolutely bawling his eyes out in the
corner in the room. And I just can't do this anymore.
I'm finding this so emotionally challenging. And I got on
the plane a beautiful picture. I got on the plane home.
So why am I doing?
Speaker 3 (37:03):
What is this?
Speaker 2 (37:04):
And I realized that I was actually asking them to
grieve me having come through such a sort of hard
battle with cancer at that time, and that I was
just so sort of like right, done that, let's go,
you know, next chapter. And I hadn't ever processed that.
And I sometimes to say, you know, as an artist
or a filmmaker, sometimes it works three steps ahead of
(37:26):
you and you have to catch up to why or
what it's about. And in my realization of that, I
did actually then go great, done via other people, let's
move on, next chapter.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
Yeah, but no, it did.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
It brought me into a place of, Okay, I think
I may have to reflect on what I've actually experienced
and not always do this thing of you know, dust
myself down and get up again.
Speaker 3 (37:47):
It was just you to come full circle, to come
full circle.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
It was so interesting and actually Paul Newman did do it.
But he said to me, he was so amazing. He said,
of all of everyone, turned up on his own in
a cab, we did it in this suite, and his
you know, his his tough agent said be quick, get
him in, get him out.
Speaker 3 (38:11):
I was like, okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
And he arrived and I said, I said, I know
I have to be quick. He was like, you don't.
He said, why don't we just sit and have some tea?
Would you like some cake? Should we sit and just chat?
And I was like amazing. I sat, we had tea
and cake, and I said, okay, let's do the pictures.
And and then I look again. I looked through the
lens and I thought, holy Molly, it's poor Neiman. Whereas
(38:34):
before he was just this very sweet older guy. We
were having tea, and as soon as I put my
hand to the lens lens, I was like, fuck, it's
por new And again it was this and I literally
was going left looking at him and then right looking
through the lens, and it was incredible, the discrepancy between
the person sat there and then what shone through the lens.
(38:55):
And it's it's amazing because the camera when they say
you know, the camera, you know, loves you.
Speaker 3 (39:02):
The camera, the lens just like ate him up.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
It was like it was like he just was a
movie star in the kind of compounded glass by the time.
He just had this this beautiful, kind of translucent, sparkling stuff.
That's one of my favorite pictures. But he did say
he was like, it was like, honey, no one wants
to see me cry.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
I was like, okay, good, you just look sad.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
He's the only one that got away with And I
couldn't say, well, Venezio del Toro, did it respect?
Speaker 1 (39:38):
Do you have anything like that coming up? No?
Speaker 2 (39:41):
But I did feel like maybe now that I finished
this film, I could just sort of think about my.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
Art world life.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
But I kind of exited that career and it's really
hard I found to get back in.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Really, I'm like, wait, because they just move on without you.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
Oh my beautiful pictures.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
I am amazing my yes, I'll give you them.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
It's so strange, I think because I was sort of,
you know, in my art world life with such a
sort of high profile art dealer that people are maybe nervous.
I don't know, I just or maybe I'm not as
good as I think.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
I am. I don't know, Sam, you are as good
as you think you are.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
If there's any art dealers out there, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
Seriously, I just want to say, having lunch with you today,
it is truly great.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
And like I said, it's the thing I was most
looking forward to.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Crazy and your gift of giving this movie to us
and telling any story you know, back to Black is
it's an incredible movie and it's again you're welcome. It's
a story of a woman who is no longer with us,
and yet she's with us, and you've you told her
(41:04):
story with respect and love and generosity. And I can
tear and cry here again because that's your gift. So
thank you so much for joining me today too, and
well have we will break many breads.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
To and I'll finish off the French.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Yes, So now we're gonna Thanks for joining me. We'll
see you soon. Table for two with Bruce Bosi is
produced by iHeart Radio seven three seven Park and Airmail.
Our executive producers are Bruce Bosi and Nathan King. Our
(41:46):
supervising producer and editor is Dylan Fagan. Table for two
is researched and written by Jack Sullivan. Our sound engineers
are mel B Klein, Jesse Crainich and Jesse Funk. Our
music supervisor is Randall. Poster Our talent booking is done
by Jane Sarkin. Table for two. Social media manager is
Gracie Wiener. Special thanks to Amy Sugarman, Uni Scherer, Kevin Uvane,
(42:11):
Bobby Bauer, Alison Kanter, Graber, Barbara Jen, Jeff Klein, and
the staff at the Tower Bar in the world famous
Sunset Tower Hotel in Hollywood. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.
Host
Bruce Bozzi
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