Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
I'm competing with Stephen Colbert, who puts up five videos
a day, who has a team of forty, and there's
just one of me. I just want to sell some culpit.
People have to really understand the difference between passion and talent.
You can have a passion for music. It doesn't mean
your talent isn't singing. Welcome to Tagline. Poor a cocktail
and join us for inspired conversations with the best storytellers,
(00:29):
culture makers, and creators. You try it, you nail it.
You scale it. You try it, you nail it, you
scale it. Tagline is produced by I Heart Radio and
partnership with Advertising Age. Hi. I'm Gail Treverman. I'm the
CMO at I Heeart Media. Welcome everyone to episode eight
of Tagline. We're here today with some awesome folks assembled
(00:51):
here in Burbank. We are going to talk a little
bit about creativity. We're going to talk a little bit
about engineering creativity, what it means today in this error
of technology and new and next and fast moving and
fast changing. And we've got an awesome panel of diverse
experts and all things creativity. We've got Andrew Robertson, CEO
(01:11):
of b b d O. Andrew manages the network, which
is one more effectiveness and more creative awards than anyone else.
Pretty impressive. You didn't know who's counting, really, and he
carries a big stick, says the client. We also have
(01:32):
the amazing Valve Vargus here with us. She's s VP
Advertising and Creators lab at A T and T and
Val is going to talk to us a little bit
about the intersection of technology, creativity and media. And we've
got two amazing creators with us today. Alexis g Zol.
You'll have to ask her what the gs for. Alexis
has a huge social media following more than one million
(01:53):
YouTube followers. She's starring in hers Allgood Full Screen show,
and she's crossing over in Tradition media with an Affects show,
and she's been on Netflix and you should check out
her content. It's pretty amazing. And we also have the
fabulous Shannon Boodrum Shan Booty, as she is known to
many of you on the Internet. Shan is a sex
and love expert, so we'll see where we go with
(02:16):
that in this episode of Tagline. She's got a book
called Laid that was obviously a best seller the title
alone should sell it. And she's worked as a sexual
educator on a bunch of TV and radio shows, and
she also has a show called Your Perfect Date, which
is in season two now streaming on full screen. So
pretty impressive group. We have assembled here and the reason
(02:37):
we're here in Burbank today is there's an interesting conference
just down the block here happening. It's the A, T
and T Shape Conference. Val, Can you tell us a
little bit about what the Shape Conference is and why
you traveled here? Yeah? Absolutely. Shape is about shaping the future.
It is the crossover of media, tech and entertainment. There
(02:58):
are some amazing things going on across the street. There
is a hackathon, which is mixed reality, virtual reality, augmented reality.
Folks over the course of the weekend are actually generating
new apps, new capabilities through you know hours that will
be up for competition. There's also a creative fun going on,
so there's live filming happening on the back lot. The
(03:20):
short series will then be a debut this evening, and
there's also pre submitted entertainment projects from up and coming
filmmakers that are in contest for over the weekend. But
I have to say the best thing about Shape is
it's all about uncommon collaboration. Just who you're mangling with,
who you sit down next to, you end up having
(03:42):
a conversation that starts to cross over a space that
you might have interest in and something that someone else does.
So it's about getting the community together and having those conversations. Amazing.
So you're actually like creating programming that you're going to
put out into the world exactly, amazing, terrifying as a marketer.
Does that scare you? Doesn't scare me? Yeah? Yeah. I
(04:06):
think one of the things that's kind of fascinating in
when you talk about creativity and sort of this intersection
of technology and creativity today is the openness of the
accessibility of distribution. Right, How did you guys get started
and build an audience of millions of followers? I was
thirteen years old. I had been in competitive gymnast my
(04:28):
entire life, and I had a really bad injury, so
I couldn't do gymnastics anymore. So I took an acting class,
and through that acting class, I found YouTube, and I
watched tons of YouTube videos and I started making videos myself,
and for two years I built up five hundred subscribers
like that's it, Like okay, like just five hundred of
my closest pals. And then I met this YouTube named
(04:50):
Lisa Schwartz at a party and I went up to
h and we were talking. I was like, really like
your videos, and I gave her my business card and
she went how old I was? Fifteen and like probably annoying?
Like I was like, Hello, it's me and here's my
business card app that's that's yeah. I've told people that
to her and they're like, um, like, wasn't that super annoying?
(05:12):
And I was like probably, but so far, so good,
like I'll take it. And then she gave me a
shout out on her channel and I started working with her.
I started making videos on Shane Dawson's second channel. I
had a similar story to you. I was doing track
and field. I was away on a scholarship there, and
while I was away in school, I just heard so
many stories from young women about sex love relationships that
they were struggling with and I was like, Wow, there
(05:34):
is nobody who is of this new generation of the
easy access culture with the world that your fingertips that's
really talking about this change and how to navigate through
this change. So I enrolled in journalism school, I began
writing my book Laid, and I basically worked as a
traditional sexual educator. I graduated from school for journalism and
then went from sexual educator. I worked on sex education. Yeah,
(05:57):
I mean I'm non traditional now. I think. I did
work at the university for a few years, and then
after that I was just writing articles and I moved
out to l A and I shot four pilots for
traditional media, and after the fourth one, which was an
amazing concept about a show where couples struggle with fidelity
via social media, and I'm like, this is gonna go
with so timely and so relevant, and I had all
my eggs in that basket and it didn't get picked up.
(06:19):
And I was like, how about YouTube? You know a
place where I can go where the content that I
make it's seen by more than ten people I never
get to meet who apparently don't like me very much.
So I just decided at that point to take it
into my own hands and to create content that was
in and everything has just gone up since then. It's
a challenging space for sure, because your program director, marketer,
(06:40):
content creator, advertiser, worst critic and best friend. But it's funny.
That's a great way to put it. The most challenging
thing about online is how all of those things exist
in your head unto a lot of what you're keeping
track of and what you're doing. You're programming, justice, you
thinking all the time with yourself. How do you guys
think about collaborate reading. I know you're both doing lots
(07:01):
of interesting work where you're collaborating with folks like Alexis
and other creators like Shannon. How do you think about
that world where collaboration is the key versus the world
of control and perfection. As a brand, we are the
first ones to say we can't dream this all up inside,
and our best opportunity is when we collaborate with others.
(07:23):
It's why we have a deep relationship with full Screen,
where we work with very talented creators like the Lovely
two Ladies here in dreaming up things that not only
A T and T might be interested in participating in,
but actually collaborating together so that we design programming that
the creator wants to get to market and finding ways
to naturally integrate the A T and T brand and
(07:46):
experience and products and services into those stories because the
day of the logo slap or sponsored by or powered
by are quickly falling away and finding ways to naturally
tell the story one that a creator to do that
can reach there are millions of followers. Is a really
nice point where the two can come together. Andrew, how
(08:06):
do you feel about that? Is the agency that has
been in the business of perfecting creative and delivering and
having control over clients like a T and T. Is
it changing your world? Yeah? Of course. As long as
you never lose sight of two things, you can navigate
your way through this. The first two things. Those two
things are firstly that you really have to believe and
(08:29):
focus on the consumer and whatever they are doing, whatever
is motivating them, interesting them, wherever they're spending their time.
That's where you need to be. If you just do that,
you'll be okay and you'll rewards. If you forget that,
you will go mad. And the second thing is we're
here to sell stuff. I am That's what I do. Yeah,
I'm proud of that too. And I like capitalism, I
(08:50):
like marketing. Okay, we have to develop every different techniques
for doing it. If you lose sight of that and
think that all we're here to do is more content
and add more breaks to the pile. We're not serving anybody,
and I would stretch that a bit in that from
a brand perspective, is absolutely the consumer you have to
start without in the center, and much of what we
do around branded content, i'd call that the fan, right.
(09:13):
But the other piece for us it's important is that
the creator is at that center, because if we're not
designing things that are interesting to you to do, then
it doesn't work right. So I would put that creator
and fan at the center. Yeah, it feels like in
the advertising world today, like we've really broken down a
ton of those walls. Right. You used to brief someone
and they'd go into like some secret dark rooms that
(09:34):
you were never allowed in and you just hope like
genius would come out of it. And now it feels
like there's a much more sort of open collaborative process
for actually bringing stories and ideas to life. It's not
an either rule, it's an end a little bit about
both of those things happening. Still some dark rooms in
pencils at each other, but I love when they come
out of that dark room and there's something magic every day.
(09:57):
Dark ad web, how do you guys like as creators
collaborating with brands, have you had experiences where you've worked
with clients, advertisers, brands good or bad. Sure, I've had
a lot of different experiences working with brands, and I
feel like every time I've collaborated with a brand, whether
it's on a YouTube video or even like an Instagram
post or a tweet, it's such a different experience because
(10:17):
each brand like values different things and each has like
these are the words that we value within our company.
And personally, I feel like the more a brand trust
the creator, like I know my audience and I know
what I can make that will get a certain reaction
from them. And so if you tell me what you
want from the can really do what the end game exactly? Yes,
(10:40):
what do you want out of the experience? What do
you want for the fans to take away from it?
And then the more you can work together to create
a narrative that works both for me as a storyteller
and for the brand to get their message across, the
more fun everyone has. And I personally feel like the
more effect of a campaign is. So was the Jello
Bath episode paid or not? It was not, But if
(11:01):
Jello is interesting. I'll take a second. Jello sure had
a good time the first I figured it probably wasn't
when you did the lines of Jello. That's pretty sure
that probably wasn't a paid investment. That's literally a childhood
expressive of mine. Though to be in a Jello bath,
I've got to that sounds so sad. That might be
the intersection there. I really like when brands allow me
(11:24):
to give my audience an experience that I couldn't. So
whether that is like a weekend get away somewhere where
you guys get to connect or see each other, are
getting to do a brand deal with a company where
it's like you guys go and have a girl's day,
a spa day, even if it's watching you do something
that you wouldn't ordinarily get to do, which is what
I love about my full screen show, which is not
a brand deal, but a brand deal, but in essence,
(11:45):
it is allowing me, you know, it's allowing me to
make the kind of content that maybe I couldn't do
on my own, so to bring a greater experience and
then bring my brand to it, but at a heightened level.
I think that's when it works, really, really well, but
not only does your pocket get fatter, but you make
the experience richer for your consumer. That's interesting, right, And
watching a couple of your episodes, I was like, what
(12:05):
would it be like to sponsor a date? That's a
really interesting creative brief, right, this make out session is
sponsored to you by Yeah, it works pretty well on
the bachelorrette. There's something there. Yeah. So we're talking a
little bit about spontaneity. Everyone can just sort of be
posting and creating and at this insane speed. Do you
think we're losing the craft? Mark Pritchard, I think had
(12:27):
been quoted a bunch of this year talking about the
crap trap of advertising? Do you think that's a risk
for us today? How do we mitigate it? Definitely is
a risk. We have to add to the world, not
just polluted. The great joy of everything that's happened technologically
is it is enabled people who have creative talent, who
have now a voice not just to produce stuff, but
(12:50):
to put stuff out in front of people and build
an audience that they understand and can keep serving. The
flip side of that is, for every two of these,
there are funny five thousand who are just adding to
the pot. It's not a problem because it's very dull winning.
Only the best survives, So in that sense we don't
need to worry about it. But I think for advertisers
(13:10):
and marketers to rush to produce stuff is mistake. Just
concentrate on producing something that's really good and increases the
chances of being chosen and picked up by consumers should
be the goal. And I do think the days of
having three networks with a limited set of content that
doesn't necessarily appeal to smaller niches of the marketplace. Today,
(13:35):
the ubiquity of the tech available enables audiences to see
themselves in messaging and creative moments, and I don't think
that's amazing. There's fewer gatekeepers today, and there's more, you know,
like you're doing with a T and T and and
full screen and YouTube, and there's so many more enablers,
which is an interesting moment. There's still a lot of
(13:58):
content getting created it but if it's crap content use
your word, well, yeah, disappears it won't be right. Do
you feel a responsibility all of you as creators, as
people putting messages out into the world. I think Andrew,
you were hitting on it. Doing messaging and marketing that matters.
Is that a new responsibility we all have in this error.
I didn't think of it as a new responsibility. I
(14:21):
think it's it's always been one. I think we just
have more opportunities to do it in different ways. As
I was talking about, you don't have to bet the
phone on dirty seconds that's going to appear on three
networks in front of six of the population and everyone
all at once. You can build it up through twenty
audiences of one million rather than depending on one of twenty. Yeah,
(14:42):
you did some pretty amazing work together with the it
can Wait campaign. Taking on societal issues was that controversial internally,
So the notion of it can wait or no texting
while driving is obviously of critical importance to a company
like ours, And I applaud a T and T for
several years ago to can a stand on a product
that we sell in the marketplace when not to use it.
(15:06):
But the real applause goes to P B d O
and the work that they did around several campaigns over
the course of the time that this has been an
initiative of ours. Just beautiful creative work that taps into
the oxytocin Andrew Yes stimulates the mind and really makes
(15:26):
you question whether or not your text and drive. I'm
staggered when I watch Instagram stories or snaps just how
many people are posting videos wild the driving. This is
moved beyond texting now. This is a combination of James
Corton and easy film. I'm really horrified by that. We
(15:47):
got to work on that. It's true. I mean, you
guys want a bunch of awards this year and can
congratulations for Meet Graham. That was also a pretty provocative,
spectacular campaign. Once you see it, you can't get that
out of your head. With a similar mission keeping us
safe in the cars, yeah, you know, I know what
I heart. We've seen like phenomenal ratings lifts because when
you're in your car, there's actually a live medium, so
(16:08):
you might listen to a playlist or your favorite music
and then you go I'm disconnected, Oh my god, And
that urge to text and drive can be mitigated with
actually listening to live humans and being part of a
live in the moment conversation. I come right and saying
that all the data on Facebook is that live video
is watched much more even when it's watched later. Yeah. Yeah,
(16:30):
there's something all the briefs that we see from marketers
live media, and you know, whether it's on Facebook or
ABC or there's something about a humanity and the authenticity
the unscripted. It's why podcasts you're having such a hot
moment right now right the ability to just have a
conversation and be part of it without it being scripted
and perfected. Right that that kind of content is more
(16:50):
what you watch alone, scripted narrative content. And I think
there's something about social content that's very live and in
the moment. Do you guys do much live media or
you're doing mostly edited? I mean, I think I've had
to make a big change this year in terms of
what I enjoy consuming and what works. I recently started
doing commentary on pop culture and how it relates to sex,
(17:11):
love relationships, and you're able to doing those things before
but now and like I have to meet people where
they are live is a big part of that. Because
I was never part of the reality TV show phenomenon
obsessionist era. I've never really been a Bachelor watcher. I
do like well thought out, slower content, but as the
current tends to shift, like, yes you do. And Instagram,
(17:32):
for example, when you post a live video and you
save it, it shows up at the top of people's
feeds whenever they open their apps, So you'd be a
fool not to take advantage of that, even though I
just would never sit and watch someone like today, but
that's what people do enjoy doing, and that's a part of,
I guess, the role that we have of constantly changing
with the culture. And because you are one person, you know,
you don't have one person who doesn't mind doing live
(17:53):
and one person who doesn't. You have to be all
things to all people, and it can be exhausting, But
I guess it's not that much to ask. Really. I
think we all need part that is carefully curated in
part that's totally ephemeral. The easier it is for those
things to be accessed, the more of it we're going
to do. And I think with every addition into social media,
whether it's more prominent live videos, you can like you're saying,
(18:14):
meet it in the middle. I have gone on Instagram
live and I was cutting my friend's hair, and so
I think it's finding ways to make the content that
you still think it's funny or that you still enjoy
or still is a part of your brand. But using
these new tools and resources and really what can ultimately
be such a positive way. Was it a good haircut? Yes,
it was. It worked out really well. It's good. I
(18:36):
don't think ye always good. What about technology? How is
technology changing what you're doing? I just always try and
keep a very open mind with every new piece of
technology or new social media site and just try and
again like adapted into a way that still makes sense
from my perspective and my point of view. There's two
parts of it. One is it is enabling us all
(19:00):
to create and produce much faster, much easier, much more economically,
and therefore much more of it. But that means there's
more opportunities for the best of it to be produced
as well. And then at the other end, technology is
enabling us to have unprecedented levels of understanding about who's
out there, what interests them, motivates them, excites them, what
(19:23):
they're doing, how they're responding to anything that we put
out this minute. The depth of understanding that technology is
facilitating is informing us better as we start the process
of creating and measure what we're doing. The part of
tech I'm just so excited about is where it goes next. Right,
So there's lots of dabbling in this space of virtual
(19:45):
reality and augmented reality and mixed media and where it
will take the consumption and how we as consumers consume
our media in the future will continue to change. And
if you go over to the exhibitor space, it's shape
you can walk you and see. You know, now I
can create virtual reality in my pocket, right, I don't
have to have the three sixty camera. It's evolving so fast,
(20:07):
and it's going to involve our friends are doing from
full screen. It's becoming easier to create these new forms
and ways to consume and experience media events, even live events. Right.
If you can do virtual reality in real time, stitch
that Right, all of a sudden, Hey, I can sell
interesting seats to concerts for all of those that are
(20:27):
virtually at home. Yes, when the tickets sell out in
eight minutes for the iHeart Festival, we can go bigger.
You gotta more tickets. Yeah that's awesome. Yeah, I think
it's amazing. Right, you can start thinking about where you're
already projecting, creating content at home tonight and having a
million people follow that and have access to that on
their phone or on their laptop. Imagine when you can
(20:47):
start actually like putting content on people's clothing, having your
followers wearing some of your content in your shows. Is
there a technology that excites you, guys most? What's coming next?
Anything you're I really like shrieked about the idea of
virtual reality and where that can go, especially for giving
people access and allowing a lot of people, especially in
my field, who are not comfortable with social interaction, aren't
(21:08):
comfortable with dating, or maybe have such extreme anxiety issues
where they don't feel good. Leading the house is a
form of giving you practice in a safe space and
allowing you to press stop whenever you're uncomfortable. So I'm
really excited about that field for where it can go,
for especially for people who have intimacy barriers. It did
some years in the technology business, and um, I've always
seen the things that succeed are where there's an intersection
(21:30):
of humanity and human need and then technology is helping
solve a problem versus technology for the sake of technology. UM.
And it's cool and we can see stuff here and
we can access it that way, and we can move
around in an environment, but actually helping people figure out
how to communicate together. You know that's going to be
interesting when we're doing that in our clothing, in our
glasses and are I think augmented we'll take off really
(21:54):
in earnest. Before virtual reality, you got to get through
the motion sickness first, right, virtual right that it will
all come together, but augmented being into what you're saying
from an education standpoint, where you can hold up your
device over a physical presence and see what that space
looked like forty years ago. From an education standpoint, it
(22:15):
adds and enhances to the experience that you know you
used to would have done in a textbook or you
would have read in two dimensional That then sits with
you longer and invade your memory longer. And so those experiences,
whether it starts with education or becomes purely for a
new form of entertainment, feels like that's the next that
will be conquered. Yeah, I think in the education space,
(22:38):
I think it's phenomenal. In the analog world, the simple
power of going to a museum, right a museum of
natural history and and seeing dinosaurs right up close is
so different than reading in a textbook about them, the
ability to actually go explore and s place together some
of the footage we have now about modern history will
be just transformative, really interested in and decided by a
(23:01):
much more simple thing, which is just the use of voice.
As the quality of the learning of these machines become
so good, how many different interactions and things that we
currently have that are either really awful or take a
lot of time will just speed up and become fantastic.
That that content exists, and the power once you get it,
(23:23):
but the ability to to just ask for it by
just saying it, as opposed to typing something in I mean,
that just makes such a difference some of the other day,
he's got young kids. When you have young kids, they're
always asking you questions, and they're always particularly saying why
why why why why? And he said, you're googling Google
and googling Well, but he said, his kids stopped asking him.
They now ask Alexi or Google or whatever. It is
(23:45):
the same questions that they used, and they're getting much
better answers, probably in this case, but it means they're
able to do much more of it. That's what I think.
The interesting thing about a lot of technological advances, it
enables us to do much more of the things that
we like in value and get define those things. Music.
I'm amazed how much more music people are listening to
as it has become so much easier to find music
(24:08):
you won't. Yeah, the accessibility is amazing, you know, having
grown up with the error of search and how empowering
it was when you could type something into a white
box and and get a list of all these results.
And now you actually don't even have to go through
that list of results. And you know, we're getting so
close to where you can just ask that question and
be there right and actually be in a moment, in
a historical moment, in setting and exploring it on your own,
(24:30):
which is going to be pretty exciting and relating technology
social media. Something that really sticks out to me as
an incredible advancement is just how easily I'm able to
get in contact with someone who lives in Russia. I
have met you controversial country he picked, Yes, Yes, I
just mean in general, like I have met so many
different YouTubers. I have a friend who lives in That's
(24:52):
but neither nor that. No, I've just met so many
different social media people just using the power of Twitter
and advancements in like FaceTime, and how easy it is
to get in contact with someone through so many different avenues.
I feel like it's really bringing people together and so
that's an exciting space for me to watch as a
social media creator and how that evolves further building a
(25:15):
global audience exactly from like your living room. It's pretty amazing.
Remember what it used to take to reach a global audience.
How many months of flitting, how many briefs, how many edits? So, yeah,
do you think there's a cap on social that's coming?
What sort of cap that? The over consumption or constant
consumption we as humans? Do you think we'll reach a cap?
(25:36):
Thinking in particular of your generation and your age, who
are natives to this, You have grown up with it,
probably can't consider the world without it. But at any
point as it overpowered or you're for seeing that, there
will be a pullback from it. Sure, I think that's
a really interesting question. I think to kind of answer
it two fold. One, talent wins out the people, the
(25:58):
social media influencers who have a point of view or
have something and they want to say, those are the
ones who hold onto their audience and they retain that relationship,
whether it's still on YouTube, whether it's on Instagram, whether
they have a television show. The people that really value
it as a craft are the ones who stick around. Ultimately,
in terms of just kids consuming so much social media,
I think it will reach a point where there's a
(26:18):
bit of a pullback. And I think we've even seen
that as being personally like with Instagram two years ago
is easier to just gain followers quickly, and now it's
a little harder because the kids that are on Instagram,
they have the people they follow, they did it already,
curated their timeline, they know what they want to see,
they see it, they're enjoying that content. They're sort of
set in that vein. So I think there will be
(26:39):
a shift, and I don't know about fully a cap,
but I think a bit of a pull back in
terms of just how much content is hosted and consumed.
I think it's been interesting to see the walls breakdown
between being always connected and being productive. Those were things
we used to pars into different parts of our lives.
This next generation Millennials and Gen Z it's just sort
(26:59):
of eaves seamlessly through their lives with the access that
you have your phone is always there. You can always
be in contact with your friends and your family and
people in Russia and your followers um. At the same time,
you can be in a meeting and you can be
having a conversation. And I wonder where that takes us
as a society, because I think in the marketing side
of the business, right, we're in an intention economy and
we're always vying for that attention, which is increasingly divided.
(27:23):
How do you guys think about solving for that talent?
Well out exactly what we say, you go to word it.
You've got to create something that is worth somebody spending
that time with you rather than any of the other
things that they could do. And had a wonderful price
for that, which is you used to just compete with
what else was in the right, Now you're competing with
everything that's ever been created. Yeah, when you look at
marketing and millennials, right, which was that generation that started
(27:45):
changing the way we were thinking about how we communicate
and generation with the choice to ignore you, and particularly
in the States, we have the most educated generation in
the history of human beings, and as marketers, we've said, hey,
I'm gonna create fifteen peckens, but if you can only
handle eight, that's cool. And what we're seeing is there's
three hour podcasts that are crushing. Documentaries are back in vogue,
(28:09):
and I think we're starting to learn that. And you know,
some of the best advertising respects that there's no right
answer to how long or short should it be? I mean,
as long as it's interesting, as long as it should be,
and in some cases that isn't very long. In other
cases it can be ours. Yeah, do you think that's
going to be a challenge in the economy of advertising
and media? How do you account for this might be
(28:29):
a three minute piece, This could be told in fifteen seconds.
It's not about how long it can be told. It's
about how long somebody's going to give you for it,
and how interesting you can make it. You're not going
to have as much time before they are able to
make that decision, so you're going to have to work
harder and get them. But this isn't new. It's been
true of print. Bizarrely, print advertising forever. When you turn
(28:51):
a page, your eyes have to decide whether you're going
to stick on that ad, read the headline, look at
the picture, read the copy or not in milliseconds is
just now becoming true or video and audio. I do
think the platforms by which it gets consumed and how
advertising has sold, all of that is going to go
through a dramatic change. Having formats of fifteens or thirties.
(29:15):
We create content that lives on DTV now that is
a minute in length for you to watch because it
is not linear, it's video on demand, and you can
now have these different lengths and again the content being
worthy of you watching that period of time. So the
advertising will follow on that in terms of it now
changing what different types of could you buy it based
(29:36):
on the level of engagement that you can earn with
the audience. So as a media company, right, it's scary
to say, hey, take eight minutes, go crazy, right, But
if it's great, well, I'd argue that it's in everybody's
interest to do exactly that. I'd argue it's in the
views or listeners interests. It's certainly in the advertisers interests,
and if it's in both of those, it should be
in the public it should be as well. Yeah, I
(29:57):
think it's a fascinating question. I was watching a bunch
of your on tent this week, both of you, I
had to sit through quite a few pre roll advertisements
that you probably don't know which ones I saw or
why I saw them, or what was running before I
watched your content. How do you feel about that in
terms of not I didn't select the ad, or that
there's advertising running in front of the content that you're
creating or in between the content that you're creating. Good
(30:20):
about it? Really got about it? Um. Yeah, the more
acts the servers running at YouTube more, the more ads,
the more cool videos I can make in the more
I can put into the craft. Any TV show, if
it's doing super well, then it can do cooler things
and do greater things and have many more episodes. And
it's the same with with YouTube content. Yeah. I think
that the attitude definitely has changed. And in terms of
(30:41):
length of time, I think what's important to note, especially
for creators, that their shift happened recently where it used
to be about how much of the videos somebody watched,
and now it's how long they watched. So if you
have a three minute video that somebody watching a d
percent the algorithm prefers a three hour video that somebody
watched for ten minutes, and so that's a bit of
a shift for us as well to where making fast
(31:02):
content is great and you want to keep people's attention.
But the longer you can keep people on your platform,
the more that the algorithm praises you. And I think
that's also been a shift too, because maybe three years
ago it was all about shares, that was in everyone's
mind of how you get something to go, and now
it's like if the Wizard of Oz of the algorithm
picks you, that's when things get great for you. It's
a constant balance. But yes, in advertisers, yes, please and
(31:23):
more if you know anybody who does that, yes, please,
m more Yes, the next episode creativity and Algorithm. Yes,
totally back to the original topic here, right, engineering and
creativity and engineering creativity, this intersection, right, just hearing you
being able to talk about algorithms and how they're having
an impact on your audience and who you get to
(31:45):
communicate to and how often do you feel like we're
becoming engineers or to succeed as creators we need to
become engineers or data scientists. I think on some level
if you're doing social media and you're not just you know,
in front of the camera. If you're sort of running
your ole entertainment platform, then absolutely, Like if you don't
have the tools to market yourself effectively, then I think
(32:06):
that there's not really much you can do other than
like hope for the best. So I think it is
a matter of on some level at least, or whether
you're working with your management or working with your YouTube work,
figuring out like how do I sell myself and how
do I get people interested in what I genuinely want
to say. You have to be a creator, and you
have to be a marketer, and you have to be
a data scientists, and you have to understand the platforms
(32:28):
and the technology. It's a lot. I think that's why
you guys are doing the Shape conference and trying to
help creators bring some of that expertise to example, I'll
tell you the creators we work with at A T
and T. We're always looking for what we call multi
hyphen It's talent that isn't just making YouTube videos, but
they have all of these other interests and that could
lean into the tech side of it, that could lean
(32:49):
into the data science part of it, and where that's
not necessarily a strength, those are resources we can bring
to the table as part of that collaboration to help
with that. What do you think you'd be doing if
you were starting out today in a world of creators
and access and content, you think you'd take a different path.
I don't, actually I think about that a lot every
now and again. Yeah, and I don't think I would
(33:11):
have taken a different path because I didn't really take
a path. I kind of fell into it. I think
i'd probably fool into it today. It worked out career advice.
I mean, I really didn't know what I was doing,
and I figure a lot of people don't when they started.
And that's fine, you guys are saying it. Find other
creative people who get you and see what happens. Yeah.
(33:31):
I went to undergrad at Syracuse for musical theater and
then I went to law school. And let's just be honest,
attorneys or closet thespians, they all want to be in
the front of a courtroom performing the litigation. Right. So
I think I would have fallen into this creator camp
if I could have had access to if you can
see the path, yeah, what is available now? Then for me,
(33:52):
it was all about live performance. Give me Broadway performing Broadway.
That's right, you can make that happens creator. How about you, guys,
you've been at this for what a few years? Yeah?
Would you do something differently if you were starting today.
I think if I were starting today, the content I
would have ended up making would be different, but I
(34:14):
think it would have sort of my same like perspective
and point of view on things. I feel like the
stuff that I make on my YouTube channel is relatively
reflective of what was popular in the time I started,
and I sort of warped and shifted so it fits today.
But I think if I were just starting out and
I didn't know that sort of old school stuff, I
would probably end up making different time from five years ago.
(34:35):
Old school from five years ago. Yeah, And I mean
in YouTube time, that's like half of the platform ago.
If I were starting again today and I didn't care
about my specialty mattress and my specialties that I have
in the morning, and I was just like I want
to go and just gun at this, I would move
ten of my friends into a place i'd like because
at the end of the day, at this point, as
(34:56):
a creator, you're competing with NBC. I'm competing with Steven
Colbert who put to five videos a day, who has
a team of forty, and there's just one of me.
So I would like, Yeah, we're all going to move
into this shaggy ask plays together and we're gonna put
out five videos a day. We're gonna do live for
an hour a day. We're gonna rotate this responsibility. At
the end of it all, I'm going to sell this major,
massive company to somebody else and then we'll get my
(35:16):
specialty mattress in my teeth. But I think that I
would approach it from more of a standpoint of it
isn't every man for itself, And at this point where
again you're competing with every piece of content ever made
as an individual, it's very difficult. What do you think
with me? Let's start again now. I saw a lot
(35:37):
of your videos, and you know, I think it's so
true of the creative creader culture and a little bit
of what's happening over on the studio a lot next door, right,
there's a lot of people coming together to help one
another create and sort of bringing these different disciplines together.
You guys create a lot of content with friends, and
I guess friends that you make as you travel through
this world. I'm intrigued as you obviously know your audience,
but it's constantly changing. What you do changes subtly from
(36:01):
video to video, but then over time quite dramatically. Are
you actually aware of the changes you're making or you
changing them intuitively based on what you're seeing, reading, and
feeling at the time. For me, it's a little bit
of both. I grew up on YouTube, so my shift
in the last five years was a lot of my
teen years, and I think everyone changes significantly in that time.
(36:22):
So it's sort of has shifted with me growing up
just naturally because like, I'm not the same person I
was at sixteen. Also, it has been a conscious shift
of now that I am this different person who's evolved
in various ways, how do I make that fit into
the brand while still allowing myself to grow. So I
think it's both two folds, and I think having at
(36:43):
least some sort of I don't know separations the right word,
but awareness of my brand online versus my identity as
a person, and finding the parts of my identity that
I'm interested in sharing that I'm willing to highlight and
then I'm willing to put out there and making sure
I'm comfortable with where line lives and where that divide in. Yeah,
you're like your eighteenth birthday video where you decided to
(37:05):
come out to your followers in the world. What got
you to that decision? Was that a personal decision? Was
that your followers in your community telling you to go there? Well,
they didn't know. But I've made a video every year
since I was fifteen, like fifteen tips for fifteen years,
and it's the most like honest that I am on
the internet. Um, just because a lot of what I
do is comedic and satire and that's the world I
(37:28):
like to live in. So every year that video is
so important to me, and it's just something that I
really value and like I planned for, and that year
of my life had so much of it had been
me going on like that journey within myself, and I
just knew that there was no way to authentically communicate
what I have actually learned in that year of my
life without talking about my sexuality. So I sort of
like mentioned it as one of the tips and then
(37:49):
moved on because it's just like a part of what
had happened that year. I spend a lot of time
talking to musicians, and it's much safer probably sitting on
this side of the table as a marketer than having
to actually be your product and be your brand. And
there's probably an insane pressure that comes with that and
living your life, plus deciding what part of your life
you're going to share and not share. Yep, there is, Yeah,
(38:12):
thanks for noticing. Yeah it's super hard, But how about
is there a pressure? Yeah? I would say one of
the greatest things I did is study sex love relationships
for a living because it's taught me so much about
how important it is to stay changing. We have this
weird dichotomy within us that we want comfort, but we
also want spontaneity. We want what's routine, but we want
something different. And you have to know that as an
(38:34):
individual not to take it personally. That if your audience
has been coming for the same video week after week
and then they don't come anymore, you can't be like
you guys hate me and I hate myself after like, Okay,
what is a unique way that I can take the
message that they've been enjoying but shifted so it goes
with what this trendy right now? And knowing that it's
not a personal thing. I think it's deeply helped me
and it allows me to really make an intimate bond
(38:55):
with people, understanding what they need to feel loved and
validated in our relationship and the day. That's what it
is at your point, It's about making that oxytocin connection
with somebody where they really do look to us someone
they know understand and who understands them, which is literally
the most important thing. Yeah. Yeah, Do you think they're
creative teams back at your office are thinking about that
(39:16):
moving the oxytocin through relationships? They are, but they're not
aware that they're thinking it. It's a little safer when
you're sitting behind concept ng versus actually being you're doing
it with yourself. Ultimately, always any secrets and tips to
success that you would share with other people, I'm sure
they're gonna be a ton of people listening, going, I
want to be Alexis, I want to be Shannon? What
(39:38):
do I do? I've always given the same piece of
advice and no one wants to hear it because a
lot of people and they're asking, like, how do I
get started? On social media? The sort of underlying question
is how do I get famous? How do we get followers.
But if you want to make YouTube videos or be
YouTube or anything really in life, make a YouTube video
and then make another YouTube video, and make another and
make sure you like it, and just try I and
(40:00):
make every video better than the last, and make it
a learning experience in collaborative and focus on creating something
that you're proud of. And then from there, once you've
sort of found your footing and your point of view
and perspective and what you actually want to say, that's
sort of the time to think, Okay, how do I
start getting my name out there? Maybe I do this collaboration,
(40:20):
Maybe I do that. I think like fully, make videos.
If you want to be a YouTuber, make a video.
If you want to be the best karate in the
whole world, start doing karate. You have to just do
it and then work from there to piggyback off that.
I would say people have to really understand the difference
between passion and talent. You can have a passion for music.
It doesn't mean your talent is in singing. Your talent
(40:43):
might be in writing or being the person behind the singer.
In this every man for themselves industry or culture that
we're in right now is a little dangerous because you
can't have that much content. But if you know for
a fact that your passion is video games, but maybe
you're not the best at the commentary, but you know
you're really good at graphics, con taxed to video gaming
YouTuber and say, look, I have the skill. I want
(41:03):
to join your team. And if people are able to
identify that within themselves, we can create better content, bigger ideas.
We can compete with the NBC's But if everyone just
wants to be Alexis and we run into a land
that I think that's where we get to the place
of doing pranks to try to get views, or lighting
yourself on fire to try and get views, where you
just get the extreme place where you don't get why
I'm not really like being seen. So let me go
(41:24):
bigger and bigger where it's no you identified what you love,
but just know what you're really good at. Within that,
be excited about the fact that we live in a
very specialized society. Not everyone has to be good at everything.
I don't have to be able to make a table
to do my job, so I can do my job
and I can do my part, and working with other people,
I think that's that's a great thing that you said.
(41:45):
I still love the metaphor of moving together and just
bring that diverse skill set together. Yeah, you need the
graphics person is important, the data guy, it's crazy important.
How about you got any advice for people wanting to
get into creating, marketing, advertising technology. Have to theater, right, Hey,
(42:05):
stick with the hustle. You have to I walk into
my office every day and imagine that I have to
recreate this company every single day. And if you keep
that hustle and that frame of reference, incubate, try new things,
dabble in it. Yes, the business is usual marketing. The
engine has to keep going. The opportunity to take risks
(42:27):
is in that incubation. You try it, you nail it,
you scale it, you try it, you nail it, you
scale it. Just keep pounding that so I'd walk in
that pavement. Yes, good, it's daily because a T and
T is reinventing itself every single day and you have
to have that framework. So keep the passion of the hustle. Hive.
(42:50):
We do another podcast called Art of the Hustle, OK
for entrepreneurs. That's exactly the metaphor. How about you, Andrew advice.
I mean, I think it taps into something that's been saved,
which is you have to enjoy what you're doing, not
depend on the result of it. You can cope with
a lot of rejection if you like doing what you're doing.
If all you're after is the approval, you're going to
(43:11):
get very depressed, very quickly. Yes, Oxy, Yeah, this was
I think an amazing episode. We have one final question.
We always ask our guests, what's your tagline? Mine is
I just want to sell some carpet marketing that matters.
You heard it here, I kind of gave it away.
Let's try it now, let's get Yeah. I love it.
At the end of every single of my videos, I say,
(43:33):
is all good, which is a pun on my last name,
and then good. But I think also it's sort of
my attitude is it is all good. Gets working from
the positive places and like staying in that mindset of
everything is good and how can we work with it?
So it's all good? I do, I own it. They
love it, and it really is just live and die
by your taste. In a world where there is so
(43:54):
much content, I have to decide first that it's good,
and then I'm going to assume you guys are all
going to like it, whether they five people are five million,
it has to start with me first owning it. Amazing
advice for everyone. Anything. We didn't talk about anything, You
want to ask, share, say your moment, your point about risk.
I learned a wonderful lesson a few years ago from
(44:15):
of all things, a banker, and we haven't talked about banking.
You know, well we should all be more like bankers.
Was it's aware suspenders already had that. Yeah. Yeah. We
had done a campaign for clients in Australia National Australian
Bank a few years ago which was called the Big Breakup,
and the idea was that consumers thought the banks were
(44:36):
all in cahoots with each other. So we publicly broke
up with the other three banks on Valentine's Day and
it was it's not about us, it's about you. Were
sick of your lying, you're cheating all that. Yeah, it
was really, really very successful. And I went to see
the CEO of the bank and I said, you know,
I just want to say congratulations on being so bold.
(44:56):
And he looked at me and said, what are you
talking about? And I said, well, you know, publicly breaking
up with the other a pretty big stand to take,
and he said, you're out of your mind. I'm a banker.
I'm not paid to be bold. I'm paid to manage risk.
And when your guys presented that to me, I mentally
figured out what the maximum downside was, which was that
we'd be laughed at for three weeks. I'd have some
(45:17):
awkward moments at the golf club, but only three weeks
the story would have moved on. And on the basis
that I could live with the downside, I went ahead
with it. I wasn't being bold. I was just managing risk.
And I think all too often we make the mistake
of not managing risk. We pursue certainty. The inevitable consequence
of the pursuit of certainty is the average Yeah, that's
(45:38):
where you land if you pursue certainty, and managing risk
doesn't have to be frightening, you just actually have to
think of what the risks really are and just getting yeah.
Most often we're always trying to be bold, whereas if
you just think about what the downside is, it probably
isn't that big and you might as well go ahead. Look,
I want to micromanage, but that may be a better
line than the carpet one. I like this creative. I
(46:06):
totally agree. I've gotten to work with some of you,
a lot of fabulous folks in advertising. A good friend,
rosmar Ryan always says she would walk into the big
pitch and the horrible meeting we were representing the little,
the risky ideas, and she would think about the worst
possible thing in all of her life that could happen.
And then if this meeting didn't go well, or you
didn't get this idea out into the world, it didn't
compare at all to your worst case scenarios in life.
(46:27):
I always took that lesson to heart there too. What's
your tagline? What is my tagline? These days? It's get heard, beloved,
Get out there, say what you're feeling, be honest with people,
don't be afraid to tell some truth, and and again
take the consequences and the risks that come with being
honest and provocative in many cases. Awesome. Do you guys
have a good time? Yeah? Yeah, I think we got
(46:49):
another awesome episode of Tagline, So thank you all for
joining us here in Burbank. Next time there will be
more cocktailing. We'll do it later. In the day. Well
there you go. I think there's a nasty in your future. Yeah,
you've been listening to tagline. We want to hear what
you thought. Join the discussion on Twitter now by using
(47:11):
the hashtag tagline. Catch all of our episodes at I
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