October 24, 2025 • 29 mins
Join us for a conversation with singer-songwriter Jim Keller as we explore the creative process, life on the road, and the stories behind the songs. Jim opens up about his new album, End of the World, diving into the themes and personal experiences that shaped these latest compositions. We also take a walk down memory lane as Jim reflects on his time with Tommy Tutone, sharing behind-the-scenes stories from that iconic era and how those experiences influenced his evolution as an artist. From the energy of playing with a hit-making band to the intimate craft of solo songwriting, Jim discusses where inspiration strikes, how songs come to life, and what it means to stay true to your creative voice across decades in music. Whether you’re a fellow musician or simply love a good story, this walk offers an intimate look at a life dedicated to the art of the song.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Taking a Walk.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
My great Anne was a music teacher in Upper Montclair,
New Jersey, and she built her own little studio and
I have some incredible photographs. She had every instrument in
the world in it. So for me being musical from
the get go, going to her studio where there were
four pianos and xylophones and drums and cla and just
everything you could imagine, was like heaven.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
I'm buzsnight and welcome to the Take in a Walk Podcast.
Now today we are joined by quite a figure. His
name is Jim Keller. He's an American musician whose four
decade career spands an incredible range of musical territories. He
co founded Tommy two Tone Remember eight, six, seven, five,
three oh nine, Jenny That was embedded in our brain
(00:45):
and still is for many years. Since nineteen ninety two,
he's worked closely with the renowned composer Philip Glass. He
founded Saint Rose Music, a publishing and management company representing
quite a roster including Tom Waits and Robbie Shankar, among others.
And today we're excited to talk about his forthcoming album
(01:07):
and his remarkable journey through the music business. I'm so
honored to have Jim Keller on the Take on a
Walk podcast.
Speaker 4 (01:18):
Welcome Jim, nice to be here.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
How's that cup of joe?
Speaker 4 (01:22):
First of all, it's good.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
It's a little tepid, it's been sitting out here for
a little while, but but it still tastes good.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
What's your flavor of choice?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Well, I'm a I'm kind of a whimp when it
comes to caffeine, So I drink just a tiny bit
of real coffee and mdcafine. So and I have a
local guy who for years has been grinding it for
me in Brooklyn, So that's where I go.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Yeah, you gotta be careful with the beans, that's right. Yeah.
So we're going to get into talking about a lot
of things, including the great new music end of the world.
But I like to start off the podcas casts with
this little icebreaking question. If if you could take a
(02:05):
walk with someone Jim, living or dead, who would you
take a walk with? Then where would you take that
walk with him?
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Well, my instant thought was my dad, who was a
wonderful guy, and it would be in Vermont, which is
where we spent an awful lot of our time. And
he built the house after the war, and he was
you know, he didn't go to college, but he had
an incredible curiosity and read a ton and he just
(02:34):
knew a lot about everything about nature and science and history,
and so, you know, I was very fortunate to grow
up with someone that had that well rounded, you know,
and curiosity is such a key word, you know, as
people that are really curious, and so that would be
my thought.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
So did you get this incredible spirit of renaissance and
reinvention for your dad?
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Well, I'm not exactly sure what you're referred to, but
reinvention of myself.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Or i'd say, so, yeah, for where your career has
taken us. We're going to talk about that. So I
was just curious if you had any insight where this
came from.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Well, I mean, I think because I mentioned my father
who did not go to college. I did not go
to college. I didn't even apply to college. I graduated
from high school in nineteen seventy two, and there was
a little blip in there because I was the first
class that wasn't affected by the draft. If I was
a year older, I would have gone to college. And
(03:40):
so I kind of fell into this little spot in
the late kind of hippie thing, you know, counterculture period.
But so you know, he paved his own path. And
I think to a certain extent, I was given the
rope to make mistakes. And I think that's a lot
of it is that that my dad gave me the
(04:01):
rope to go off and go wherever I wanted to
go and make the mistakes I made and have the
successes I had. So I think that's probably now that
we say this, that's where a lot of it came from.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
So the earliest impactful music in your life, what do
you first remember that really, you know, set the tone
for you.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
Well, it's really clear to me.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
There are a couple of very specific kind of like
markers on a timeline. And my great aunt was a
music teacher in Upper Montclair, New Jersey, and she built
her own little studio and I have some incredible photographs.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
She had every instrument in the world in it.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
So for me, being musical from the get go, going
to her studio where there were four pianos and xylophones
and drums and just everything you could imagine, was like heaven,
you know. So, and she taught piano, so I took
piano lessons from her. When I was five, six and seven,
you know, so that was that marker, and then pretty
(05:03):
shortly thereafter we're going to get into February ninth, nineteen
sixty four when the Beatles round the that Sullivan show,
and you know that that clearly was the next major.
You know, I played cello for years and I always
did a lot of stuff. But you know, I knew
the Beatles were coming. It wasn't like I saw them
and thought about it. I knew they were coming from
(05:24):
listening to my little Phillips radio and yeah, that that
blew my socks off. And that was it, you know,
when they showed up.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
So I grew up in Stanford, Connecticut, and I had
parents that were you know, let's just say the it
wasn't really a tight leash in those days. I could
take the train into to New York City, probably when
I shouldn't have, but that had great impact in terms
of some of the music that I saw. So did
(05:56):
you sneak into the city and go to the village
see certain artists your favorites?
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Because I grew up in New Jersey and it was
the irie Lakawana to help the Hoboken and then the
path train into the city, I would. So it was
a combination of sneaking in to see concerts and or
having somebody's parent who happened to live in the city
kind of drop us off and pick us up. But
there was a combination of both. And you know, with
you and I think I'm probably a little old of you,
(06:24):
but whatever. You know, I grew up in that incredible
period where you go to the Film or East and
see three ridiculous bands, and which of course I didn't
know at the time how crazy that was, you know,
but there you are with the Jeff Beck Group with
Rod Stuart and Runwood and Nicky Hopkins, and then there's
Joe on the Joe Cocker on the same bill with Nary.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
It's like to.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
See that now, you'd you know, it would blow your mind.
I mean, I wish they had video of all those shows.
But yeah, so I grew up going to a lot
of those shows in the city and being very fortunate
to be close enough to get to them.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Remember those light shows too, at the film.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
Or Joshua Light Show.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Sure it was incredible. Yeah, it's so impactful, for sure.
So let's go to Tommy two tone that embedded in
our brains to this day. Eight six, seven, five, three
oh nine, Jenny, So you were part of that incredible experience.
(07:26):
What was it like capturing lightning in a bottle with
that band and that song.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Well, it's kind of it's what you would imagine really
if you sit around, Thank God, what would it be
like if I wrote a song without thinking twice about
it being going anywhere, put it together with a band,
put it on a record, and then it blows up
And the fact that it's this many years later and
it's still impactful is luck. You know, there's a lot
(07:55):
of just not dumb luck, but just great fortune involved.
And you know, it was incredible because we were a
bar band and we had had a hit on the
first record. It was a song called Angels Say No,
which made in the top forty, so we had some
success and we had we were on the Petty tour
for Refugee, and but when eight sixty seven hit, you know,
(08:18):
it was it was a shared experience. That was the
other thing that was great about it is that and
this is not unusual. You know, you hear this from
a lot of rock bands that you know. When we
were playing at that stage when it was a hit.
It was a shared experience with the audience. We were
as we were as you know, we were as blown
away as the audience was with the song. I remember
(08:39):
we used to play it twice on some gigs is
because it was like so much fun and the audience
they were like having fun too, you know. It was Yeah,
it was mind boggling. And how fortunate am I to
have been a part of something that was like that,
you know. I mean, it all starts with Alex call
who was a songwriting partner. He was in a band
(09:01):
called Clover, which is where Huey Lewis and those guys
came from. And this is all in northern California, and
he and I were writing together and I showed up
at this funky little writing studio that he had and
he had that basis of that song, and I went, what.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
The hell is that?
Speaker 2 (09:17):
And then I finished it, I think virtually that day essentially,
and then the words were a little funky, but I
took it into the band and instantly it was just
fun to play.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
And without belaboring this.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Too much, but we were really when we recorded that,
we were left to our own devices. Chuck Plotkin was
technically the producer, but he wasn't really in the room.
So Tommy and I basically played that with the band
and we arranged it in our own, very personal fashion
with very little influence from the outside. And you got
(09:54):
to remember, this is the early eighties and this is
where snare drum started going boosh. You know, everything was gated.
There were synthesizers started showing up on everything, and we
that track is not like that. That track is a barband,
an articulated one, but it's still the sounds are very straightforward,
(10:15):
so it has a timelessness that it's it's afforded itself
that it doesn't sound It still sounds like it's, you know,
a bunch of guys banging out the song in a garage.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
You know.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
It doesn't have any of the telltale kind of eighties
sound that I can't stand.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
But you know, but again, that was just luck. You know.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
I think at that point, the next time I hear it,
I'm going to think of it in a different way,
after having talked to you and having you walk me
through it, It's gonna feel differently to me because knowing
your incredible story, which then after losing the label deal
and those things happen. After success, you went through a
(11:01):
period of you know, I'm sure reflection and reinvention for
a number of years, right.
Speaker 4 (11:08):
Yeah, long time reflection.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
It's a very it's a very poetic word for being
completely broke, me a clue what to do. And that
went on for a long time. I you know, I
moved back to the East Coast. I had bands, I played,
you know, Alan Pepper at the bottom Line was a
big fan, so I played there, you know, play there.
Speaker 4 (11:27):
In various other places, had production deals.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
But I wasn't It wasn't happening, you know, but nobody
kind of taps you on the shoulder and says, you know, Jim,
this isn't really happening. You should like do something else.
So I did that for a while when it wasn't happening.
And you know, you just because you write a song
and records and it doesn't mean it justifies having the
really the mojo of the energy that it deserves an
(11:50):
audience in a way. But I did that for a
long time and was broke and then ended up I know,
we're going to the next chapter where I ended up
starting to work with Philip Lass, which completely came out
of nowhere.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
Philip Glass incredible unique, you know artists for sure, and
then ultimately your world intersected with some other incredible artists, uh,
including Tom Waits and Robbie Shankar. So talk about that experience,
(12:23):
which must have been amazing.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Well, I think I started working with Philip and I
didn't know anything about Philip or the music, but I
worked really hard to try to figure it out because
I was broke and I needed a career, and I
wanted health insurance and I wanted you know, I got married,
had a kid, and I learned.
Speaker 4 (12:41):
That world of the arts publishing world.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
So I I kind of self taught that that planet,
and then met along the way, I met Robbie who
needed someone to help him. So I had a separate
company that I started with Philip, and so we we
took on Robbie and worked with him as his publisher
and then kind of co manager. Tom was also needed
(13:07):
somebody to look after his music theater works. He has
a bunch of music theater works that did with the
director Robert Wilson, who just passed away. And so I
started working with Tom, who became a very good friend.
And then there were a handful of other people, young
composer Nico Muley. I managed Rufus for a few years.
You know, a lot of a lot of really talented people.
(13:31):
You know, I was very fortunate that almost everybody I
worked with were just so talented that you know, it
made it. I'm not going to say it was easy,
but it's certainly the gratification from it was pretty straightforward,
because you know, I wasn't pushing a rock up a hill.
You know, they were at the up, they were up
(13:54):
the mountain. You know, all of those people.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
So I had ed Begley Junior on a couple of times.
Who who is friendly with Tom Waits? So he gave
me some of his perspective, you know of Tom. But
what can you share as somebody who was close or
is close with Tom. What's the secret to Tom Waits?
(14:17):
His brilliance?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
He's really commuse the F word on this show. Sure,
he's really fucking smart. And you know, this was true
with Philip, this was true with Robbie and that. You know,
it's not an accident if we just look at those
three individuals, they're all really smart. And you know, when
I'd sit and I spent a lot of time with
(14:41):
Tom and you know, we can sit around and joke
and all that stuff, but when it comes right down
to it, he's just really smart, and I know he
kind of plays it down, you know, with his character.
But the same was true with Robbie and with Philip.
He's sitting in the room with those guys, and if
they start talking, I end up listening, you know, and
I let them because there's undoubtedly they're going to say
(15:03):
something that's put together in a way that I never
would have thought of.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
We'll be right back with more of the Taken a
Walk podcast. Welcome back to the Taking a Walk Podcast.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
So after all those years behind the scenes and publishing
and management, then you step back into the spotlight as
a recording artist. So what inspired you? What was the
itch that was calling?
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Well, I only I stopped for about ten years when
I first started working with Philip, when I was forty.
For ten years, I didn't play the guitar virtually, and
that was when I got this job. I got married,
I had a kid, which I was really involved in
raising my daughter, and then I hit fifty and it
was like it wasn't working anymore because essentially I'd given
(15:54):
up the most one of the most important things in
my life. So I really started again, you know, years ago,
and was writing for that whole period of time. And
my writing partner is a guy named Byron Isaacs, who
he's in the Illumineers, but he was in a band
called Lula Bell and he was Live on Helm's bass
player for years, and he lives down the street, and
(16:15):
so we would write together. We were doing that for
twenty five years. Virtually, you know, I don't see him
so much anymore, but I was involved. The big difference
is that when I stopped, I kind of retired from
the business world, and as I'd like to say, I
got my old job back of being an unemployed musician,
(16:38):
and funny enough.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
It was still available.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
And the reality is it's a lot more fun than working.
So but I played a lot all the time through
those years. I have a jam session I do at
least once a week that I've been doing for a
twenty years, where I just say who wants to play
and whoever's in town can come in the room, and
literally every week for twenty years I've been doing this.
(17:09):
I'm doing it twice this week, you know, with characters.
I'm sure you know Tony Leoni from Little Feet, who
else is in the Andy Hess from the you know, Black.
Speaker 4 (17:18):
Crows or whatever the hell? You know?
Speaker 2 (17:19):
I mean guys that are they're just around. And so
I was always doing that in writing and then doing
some recording. But I think what's happened now is a
couple of things. One I have the time, and the
other thing is I'm seventy one, and it's like, I,
you know, if I'm not going to put this stuff
down now, it's when am I going to do it?
What else would I want to do? And there's definitely
(17:42):
you know, you get to you get older, and there's
this a sense of it's not desperation, but it's a
sense of like, Okay, this is a limited I have
a limited time in front of me, and I want
to milk as much out of it as I can.
And that means I want to play as much music
as I can and travel as much as I can.
So the songs has always been a pride, a part
(18:05):
of what I'm doing songwriting, and that's always the core
of everything.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
And if the songs are there, then then we'll go recording.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
And those sessions that you talk about, the jam sessions,
they're pretty much they're not recorded or videotaped or anything
like that.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Right now, I kind of have a rule from the
very beginning, there's no recording equipment. It's not a recording studio,
there's no video gear. Whatever happens in that room is
what happens, and it's ephemeral and then it's gone. And
I think the people that come into that room they
appreciate the fact that that's what it is. It's not
(18:41):
for any other purpose than whatever happens in that room.
And invariably every session, something happens that everyone in the
room knows, Okay, that was happening right there.
Speaker 4 (18:53):
You don't have to discuss it. Everyone knows it when
it happens.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
And in very I think out of twenty odd years,
maybe there's been two sessions where I kind of walked
home and went, whoof wow, what happened. But almost always
there's stuff that happens, and you know, I'm just so
fortunate that there are so many great players that want
to do that, and it's having songs. It's really important too,
(19:20):
because I do play my songs and I workshop songs
and then we just take.
Speaker 4 (19:25):
Off from there.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
But I've done it I used to have a set
of gear in La so I would do it when
I was in Los Angeles at a studio out there,
and the pandemic happened to kind of change things. But
so and you know, I go to San Francisco and
I find a rehearsal studios and players and who wants
to play. So it's it's you know, it's a pretty
great way to make music.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Oh man, it sounds like therapy. Really, it sounds it
sounds wonderful. Were you ever able to make it? You
mentioned indirectly Levon Helm. Will you ever make ever able
to make get to Levan's jam sessions that he used
to do that years ago?
Speaker 2 (20:05):
No, No, I mean I've been to the barn, I've
been to concerts, but I've never I mean, I know
all those people up there, but I've never been a
part of that.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Now, so fast forward now to the end of the world.
Congratulations on that work. I know you're proud of that work.
Can take us through the creative process of that. I
know you probably workshop some of it in those sessions,
as you indicated, but talk about your your creative process,
your songwriting process for that project, or in general, all
(20:37):
your work well.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
I never sit down and say I'm going to write
a song about something. So I never sit down and say, Okay,
I'm going to write a group of songs about this.
The song dictates where it's going to go, and whatever
I'm thinking of or going through at that time will
steer that, but I'm not dictating it. So you know,
(21:05):
on this record, there's just no question that a lot
of the stuff on there is a reflection, and in
my mind it's a serious reflection, but I do it
in a somewhat sarcastic, light hearted way often on the songs,
but it's a reflection on the political environment that we're
in right now and the technological environment that we're in
(21:27):
and how I feel about that stuff and how overwhelming
it all is. So there's more than a half. There's
a handful of songs that are clearly that's what's happening,
and then other songs I'm writing about whatever comes out
that day, and whether it's a personal story or just
a pop song. It's again that you know, when you
(21:51):
have the guitar in your hands, that tells you where,
that leads you where you're going.
Speaker 4 (21:57):
In a way, I know that's a little bag.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
But so it's a group of songs that in some
way have to be a reflection of who I am
right now.
Speaker 4 (22:05):
But it's not like I tell you why or dictate that.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
It's just kind of what happens, and this is what
came out at this moment, this group of songs.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
Are you envisioning these songs at the point of creation
on how they will play out in a live environment?
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Initially, no, because I'm literally sitting Almost everything I write
is and it's an acoustic guitar and I use my
thumb and you know, I literally am plucking away quietly.
So initially it's really about you know, rhythm, melody, chord
(22:43):
changes and lyric, and then I think when I go
into room, you bring the rhythm section in, then that
changes instantly, and then I play around with it. You know,
if I'm playing stuff at a jam session, would I
do all the time? It's like, whoever the guy in
that room are, that's what that song is that day.
(23:03):
And I don't really rarely do I tell them somebody
where to go, because I kind of want to hear
what they're going to do.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
And when you.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Play with great players, invariably they're going to take you
somewhere interesting. Now it may not be where the song
ends up, but you're going to have a nice ride
along the way before you figure that out. And then
the studio process is different. And in this case, Adam
Mankoff is a brilliant musician, arranger, composer who I've worked with.
This is the second record I've done with Adam. You know,
(23:33):
he and I spent a lot of time together and
I'll send him a little acoustic thing and then he'll
send back a blown up arrangement with some interesting ideas,
and then we'll decide, you know, okay, how do we
want to cut this in the studio.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
I'm getting the sense that in these studio sessions the
environment is very relaxed, and there can be a comedic
undertone at any given time, but also a serious commitment
to the craft. Is that a fair evaluation of the
vibe of a session.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Yeah, totally, because all of these guys are serious players
and they're all serious about you know, where where it is,
you know, the groove, the part, the melody, whatever it is.
But at the same time, it's completely loose and you know,
we'll go off on and I'm seriously you know, we'll
(24:28):
play it to one cored for ten minutes and everyone
will just go around and solo on it, and then
it'll come back to something else. I'll make something up,
you know. So that's a pretty good description of the
energy in the room.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Talk about some of your other favorites from the End
of the World, including all of them, if you'd like.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Oh well, I mean, there's a song called Love One Another,
which is the first track, and I mean, first off,
I you know it's about something, you know, for me,
it's about something. And I mean I never liked talking
about what song my songs are back is really what
they're about is whatever the listener thinks. It's not what
(25:11):
I think they're about. That matters.
Speaker 4 (25:13):
And you know that that groove, it's a great groove.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
There's a drummer named Tony Mason who's on that track,
and it's brilliant and Adam came up with some really
great parts. The second song, which has Got No Time
for That, which is actually came out of a jam
from twenty years ago and I found on an old recorder,
you know, it was before iPhones.
Speaker 4 (25:35):
I used to use this.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
Thing or I remember one of those. I had one
of those.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Yeah, it's like a voice recorder for office notes or something. Yeah,
And I found this thing that I had done in
a room with a guy named Scott Metzger was on
it is a great guitar player, and I fished this
thing out and then I finished the song with Byron,
you know, about what a year ago or so, And
(26:02):
you know that's you know, that's just a great fun
rock pop song. But it's also about, you know, the
fact that I'm severyone and I'm roadkill to the technology
that we all have to deal with every day. Every
time I want to make a reservation at a restaurant,
I have to put my birth certificate number on it,
you know, and then I get five notices back on
(26:23):
you know, how did you like? You know whatever? It's
just all way too much, and you know, you know
it's my complaint about that much, just everything else.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
Yeah, would you rather that you only had a landline
rather than a cell phone?
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Well, I wish the internet didn't exist, you know. I
we all worked perfectly well before email, and now with texting,
where it's this constant, constant, constant barrage. There's no reflective
time in your day and at work when I was
still working. There was no reflective time. It was just
(26:59):
react of which you know is like an old man complaining, But.
Speaker 4 (27:05):
Yeah, that's I have to say.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Some of the other songs that I'm fond over, the ballads,
I'm I'm going to put a compliation together of just
the ballads because those are always impactful for me. And
there's a couple on this record that I really like.
I think there's like three up them that are all
impactful for me.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
So in closing, I know I led with this, which
I think is I stand by at you in terms
of reinvention and always finding this this rebirth and renaissance.
What advice would you give to somebody listening, whether it's
a musician or just someone at a phase of their
(27:49):
life that's looking for a new chapter and something to
be excited about. What advice would you give to them?
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Well, I mean that's pretty broad, but I think I'm
asked often friends of mine send their kids to me,
or they come to me or they send their kids
about what do we do my son wants a music career,
and what advice you have? And I always say, you know,
find the joy, you know, find something that you love
doing it. And do it for that reason. And you
(28:18):
have to, you know, that's the most important thing, is
that you have to find something that really gives you
that satisfaction. And if you can take that and move
forward with that, that's great. But the end result can't
be big success. It's got to start with you being
passionate about something and you know, following that passion, whether
(28:39):
it's professionally or as an amateur. And you know, a
guy playing phil in a bar at a jam session,
nobody can tell him that he's having any less fun
than somebody that's playing at Madison Square Garden that night.
You know, it's all about, you know, this gratification that
(28:59):
you get from music. In our case, that comes in
every shape and form, and there's no sell by date
on it and there's no quantification on it. So wherever
it happens, however it can happen, that's that's where the
important stuff is.
Speaker 5 (29:16):
Drink that wine up, watch the river Flow, Jimmy Keller,
Bravo on the end of the World, and it's so
fantastic to have you on the Taking a Walk Podcast.
Speaker 4 (29:27):
Thanks thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Taking a
Walk Podcast. Share this and other episodes with your friends
and follow us so you never miss an episode. Taking
a Walk is available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
and wherever you get your podcasts.
Taking a Walk.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
My great Anne was a music teacher in Upper Montclair,
New Jersey, and she built her own little studio and
I have some incredible photographs. She had every instrument in
the world in it. So for me being musical from
the get go, going to her studio where there were
four pianos and xylophones and drums and cla and just
everything you could imagine, was like heaven.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
I'm buzsnight and welcome to the Take in a Walk Podcast.
Now today we are joined by quite a figure. His
name is Jim Keller. He's an American musician whose four
decade career spands an incredible range of musical territories. He
co founded Tommy two Tone Remember eight, six, seven, five,
three oh nine, Jenny That was embedded in our brain
(00:45):
and still is for many years. Since nineteen ninety two,
he's worked closely with the renowned composer Philip Glass. He
founded Saint Rose Music, a publishing and management company representing
quite a roster including Tom Waits and Robbie Shankar, among others.
And today we're excited to talk about his forthcoming album
(01:07):
and his remarkable journey through the music business. I'm so
honored to have Jim Keller on the Take on a
Walk podcast.
Speaker 4 (01:18):
Welcome Jim, nice to be here.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
How's that cup of joe?
Speaker 4 (01:22):
First of all, it's good.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
It's a little tepid, it's been sitting out here for
a little while, but but it still tastes good.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
What's your flavor of choice?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Well, I'm a I'm kind of a whimp when it
comes to caffeine, So I drink just a tiny bit
of real coffee and mdcafine. So and I have a
local guy who for years has been grinding it for
me in Brooklyn, So that's where I go.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Yeah, you gotta be careful with the beans, that's right. Yeah.
So we're going to get into talking about a lot
of things, including the great new music end of the world.
But I like to start off the podcas casts with
this little icebreaking question. If if you could take a
(02:05):
walk with someone Jim, living or dead, who would you
take a walk with? Then where would you take that
walk with him?
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Well, my instant thought was my dad, who was a
wonderful guy, and it would be in Vermont, which is
where we spent an awful lot of our time. And
he built the house after the war, and he was
you know, he didn't go to college, but he had
an incredible curiosity and read a ton and he just
(02:34):
knew a lot about everything about nature and science and history,
and so, you know, I was very fortunate to grow
up with someone that had that well rounded, you know,
and curiosity is such a key word, you know, as
people that are really curious, and so that would be
my thought.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
So did you get this incredible spirit of renaissance and
reinvention for your dad?
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Well, I'm not exactly sure what you're referred to, but
reinvention of myself.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Or i'd say, so, yeah, for where your career has
taken us. We're going to talk about that. So I
was just curious if you had any insight where this
came from.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Well, I mean, I think because I mentioned my father
who did not go to college. I did not go
to college. I didn't even apply to college. I graduated
from high school in nineteen seventy two, and there was
a little blip in there because I was the first
class that wasn't affected by the draft. If I was
a year older, I would have gone to college. And
(03:40):
so I kind of fell into this little spot in
the late kind of hippie thing, you know, counterculture period.
But so you know, he paved his own path. And
I think to a certain extent, I was given the
rope to make mistakes. And I think that's a lot
of it is that that my dad gave me the
(04:01):
rope to go off and go wherever I wanted to
go and make the mistakes I made and have the
successes I had. So I think that's probably now that
we say this, that's where a lot of it came from.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
So the earliest impactful music in your life, what do
you first remember that really, you know, set the tone
for you.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
Well, it's really clear to me.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
There are a couple of very specific kind of like
markers on a timeline. And my great aunt was a
music teacher in Upper Montclair, New Jersey, and she built
her own little studio and I have some incredible photographs.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
She had every instrument in the world in it.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
So for me, being musical from the get go, going
to her studio where there were four pianos and xylophones
and drums and just everything you could imagine, was like heaven,
you know. So, and she taught piano, so I took
piano lessons from her. When I was five, six and seven,
you know, so that was that marker, and then pretty
(05:03):
shortly thereafter we're going to get into February ninth, nineteen
sixty four when the Beatles round the that Sullivan show,
and you know that that clearly was the next major.
You know, I played cello for years and I always
did a lot of stuff. But you know, I knew
the Beatles were coming. It wasn't like I saw them
and thought about it. I knew they were coming from
(05:24):
listening to my little Phillips radio and yeah, that that
blew my socks off. And that was it, you know,
when they showed up.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
So I grew up in Stanford, Connecticut, and I had
parents that were you know, let's just say the it
wasn't really a tight leash in those days. I could
take the train into to New York City, probably when
I shouldn't have, but that had great impact in terms
of some of the music that I saw. So did
(05:56):
you sneak into the city and go to the village
see certain artists your favorites?
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Because I grew up in New Jersey and it was
the irie Lakawana to help the Hoboken and then the
path train into the city, I would. So it was
a combination of sneaking in to see concerts and or
having somebody's parent who happened to live in the city
kind of drop us off and pick us up. But
there was a combination of both. And you know, with
you and I think I'm probably a little old of you,
(06:24):
but whatever. You know, I grew up in that incredible
period where you go to the Film or East and
see three ridiculous bands, and which of course I didn't
know at the time how crazy that was, you know,
but there you are with the Jeff Beck Group with
Rod Stuart and Runwood and Nicky Hopkins, and then there's
Joe on the Joe Cocker on the same bill with Nary.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
It's like to.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
See that now, you'd you know, it would blow your mind.
I mean, I wish they had video of all those shows.
But yeah, so I grew up going to a lot
of those shows in the city and being very fortunate
to be close enough to get to them.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Remember those light shows too, at the film.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
Or Joshua Light Show.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Sure it was incredible. Yeah, it's so impactful, for sure.
So let's go to Tommy two tone that embedded in
our brains to this day. Eight six, seven, five, three
oh nine, Jenny, So you were part of that incredible experience.
(07:26):
What was it like capturing lightning in a bottle with
that band and that song.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Well, it's kind of it's what you would imagine really
if you sit around, Thank God, what would it be
like if I wrote a song without thinking twice about
it being going anywhere, put it together with a band,
put it on a record, and then it blows up
And the fact that it's this many years later and
it's still impactful is luck. You know, there's a lot
(07:55):
of just not dumb luck, but just great fortune involved.
And you know, it was incredible because we were a
bar band and we had had a hit on the
first record. It was a song called Angels Say No,
which made in the top forty, so we had some
success and we had we were on the Petty tour
for Refugee, and but when eight sixty seven hit, you know,
(08:18):
it was it was a shared experience. That was the
other thing that was great about it is that and
this is not unusual. You know, you hear this from
a lot of rock bands that you know. When we
were playing at that stage when it was a hit.
It was a shared experience with the audience. We were
as we were as you know, we were as blown
away as the audience was with the song. I remember
(08:39):
we used to play it twice on some gigs is
because it was like so much fun and the audience
they were like having fun too, you know. It was Yeah,
it was mind boggling. And how fortunate am I to
have been a part of something that was like that,
you know. I mean, it all starts with Alex call
who was a songwriting partner. He was in a band
(09:01):
called Clover, which is where Huey Lewis and those guys
came from. And this is all in northern California, and
he and I were writing together and I showed up
at this funky little writing studio that he had and
he had that basis of that song, and I went, what.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
The hell is that?
Speaker 2 (09:17):
And then I finished it, I think virtually that day essentially,
and then the words were a little funky, but I
took it into the band and instantly it was just
fun to play.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
And without belaboring this.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Too much, but we were really when we recorded that,
we were left to our own devices. Chuck Plotkin was
technically the producer, but he wasn't really in the room.
So Tommy and I basically played that with the band
and we arranged it in our own, very personal fashion
with very little influence from the outside. And you got
(09:54):
to remember, this is the early eighties and this is
where snare drum started going boosh. You know, everything was gated.
There were synthesizers started showing up on everything, and we
that track is not like that. That track is a barband,
an articulated one, but it's still the sounds are very straightforward,
(10:15):
so it has a timelessness that it's it's afforded itself
that it doesn't sound It still sounds like it's, you know,
a bunch of guys banging out the song in a garage.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
You know.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
It doesn't have any of the telltale kind of eighties
sound that I can't stand.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
But you know, but again, that was just luck. You know.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
I think at that point, the next time I hear it,
I'm going to think of it in a different way,
after having talked to you and having you walk me
through it, It's gonna feel differently to me because knowing
your incredible story, which then after losing the label deal
and those things happen. After success, you went through a
(11:01):
period of you know, I'm sure reflection and reinvention for
a number of years, right.
Speaker 4 (11:08):
Yeah, long time reflection.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
It's a very it's a very poetic word for being
completely broke, me a clue what to do. And that
went on for a long time. I you know, I
moved back to the East Coast. I had bands, I played,
you know, Alan Pepper at the bottom Line was a
big fan, so I played there, you know, play there.
Speaker 4 (11:27):
In various other places, had production deals.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
But I wasn't It wasn't happening, you know, but nobody
kind of taps you on the shoulder and says, you know, Jim,
this isn't really happening. You should like do something else.
So I did that for a while when it wasn't happening.
And you know, you just because you write a song
and records and it doesn't mean it justifies having the
really the mojo of the energy that it deserves an
(11:50):
audience in a way. But I did that for a
long time and was broke and then ended up I know,
we're going to the next chapter where I ended up
starting to work with Philip Lass, which completely came out
of nowhere.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
Philip Glass incredible unique, you know artists for sure, and
then ultimately your world intersected with some other incredible artists, uh,
including Tom Waits and Robbie Shankar. So talk about that experience,
(12:23):
which must have been amazing.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Well, I think I started working with Philip and I
didn't know anything about Philip or the music, but I
worked really hard to try to figure it out because
I was broke and I needed a career, and I
wanted health insurance and I wanted you know, I got married,
had a kid, and I learned.
Speaker 4 (12:41):
That world of the arts publishing world.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
So I I kind of self taught that that planet,
and then met along the way, I met Robbie who
needed someone to help him. So I had a separate
company that I started with Philip, and so we we
took on Robbie and worked with him as his publisher
and then kind of co manager. Tom was also needed
(13:07):
somebody to look after his music theater works. He has
a bunch of music theater works that did with the
director Robert Wilson, who just passed away. And so I
started working with Tom, who became a very good friend.
And then there were a handful of other people, young
composer Nico Muley. I managed Rufus for a few years.
You know, a lot of a lot of really talented people.
(13:31):
You know, I was very fortunate that almost everybody I
worked with were just so talented that you know, it
made it. I'm not going to say it was easy,
but it's certainly the gratification from it was pretty straightforward,
because you know, I wasn't pushing a rock up a hill.
You know, they were at the up, they were up
(13:54):
the mountain. You know, all of those people.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
So I had ed Begley Junior on a couple of times.
Who who is friendly with Tom Waits? So he gave
me some of his perspective, you know of Tom. But
what can you share as somebody who was close or
is close with Tom. What's the secret to Tom Waits?
(14:17):
His brilliance?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
He's really commuse the F word on this show. Sure,
he's really fucking smart. And you know, this was true
with Philip, this was true with Robbie and that. You know,
it's not an accident if we just look at those
three individuals, they're all really smart. And you know, when
I'd sit and I spent a lot of time with
(14:41):
Tom and you know, we can sit around and joke
and all that stuff, but when it comes right down
to it, he's just really smart, and I know he
kind of plays it down, you know, with his character.
But the same was true with Robbie and with Philip.
He's sitting in the room with those guys, and if
they start talking, I end up listening, you know, and
I let them because there's undoubtedly they're going to say
(15:03):
something that's put together in a way that I never
would have thought of.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
We'll be right back with more of the Taken a
Walk podcast. Welcome back to the Taking a Walk Podcast.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
So after all those years behind the scenes and publishing
and management, then you step back into the spotlight as
a recording artist. So what inspired you? What was the
itch that was calling?
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Well, I only I stopped for about ten years when
I first started working with Philip, when I was forty.
For ten years, I didn't play the guitar virtually, and
that was when I got this job. I got married,
I had a kid, which I was really involved in
raising my daughter, and then I hit fifty and it
was like it wasn't working anymore because essentially I'd given
(15:54):
up the most one of the most important things in
my life. So I really started again, you know, years ago,
and was writing for that whole period of time. And
my writing partner is a guy named Byron Isaacs, who
he's in the Illumineers, but he was in a band
called Lula Bell and he was Live on Helm's bass
player for years, and he lives down the street, and
(16:15):
so we would write together. We were doing that for
twenty five years. Virtually, you know, I don't see him
so much anymore, but I was involved. The big difference
is that when I stopped, I kind of retired from
the business world, and as I'd like to say, I
got my old job back of being an unemployed musician,
(16:38):
and funny enough.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
It was still available.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
And the reality is it's a lot more fun than working.
So but I played a lot all the time through
those years. I have a jam session I do at
least once a week that I've been doing for a
twenty years, where I just say who wants to play
and whoever's in town can come in the room, and
literally every week for twenty years I've been doing this.
(17:09):
I'm doing it twice this week, you know, with characters.
I'm sure you know Tony Leoni from Little Feet, who
else is in the Andy Hess from the you know, Black.
Speaker 4 (17:18):
Crows or whatever the hell? You know?
Speaker 2 (17:19):
I mean guys that are they're just around. And so
I was always doing that in writing and then doing
some recording. But I think what's happened now is a
couple of things. One I have the time, and the
other thing is I'm seventy one, and it's like, I,
you know, if I'm not going to put this stuff
down now, it's when am I going to do it?
What else would I want to do? And there's definitely
(17:42):
you know, you get to you get older, and there's
this a sense of it's not desperation, but it's a
sense of like, Okay, this is a limited I have
a limited time in front of me, and I want
to milk as much out of it as I can.
And that means I want to play as much music
as I can and travel as much as I can.
So the songs has always been a pride, a part
(18:05):
of what I'm doing songwriting, and that's always the core
of everything.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
And if the songs are there, then then we'll go recording.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
And those sessions that you talk about, the jam sessions,
they're pretty much they're not recorded or videotaped or anything
like that.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Right now, I kind of have a rule from the
very beginning, there's no recording equipment. It's not a recording studio,
there's no video gear. Whatever happens in that room is
what happens, and it's ephemeral and then it's gone. And
I think the people that come into that room they
appreciate the fact that that's what it is. It's not
(18:41):
for any other purpose than whatever happens in that room.
And invariably every session, something happens that everyone in the
room knows, Okay, that was happening right there.
Speaker 4 (18:53):
You don't have to discuss it. Everyone knows it when
it happens.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
And in very I think out of twenty odd years,
maybe there's been two sessions where I kind of walked
home and went, whoof wow, what happened. But almost always
there's stuff that happens, and you know, I'm just so
fortunate that there are so many great players that want
to do that, and it's having songs. It's really important too,
(19:20):
because I do play my songs and I workshop songs
and then we just take.
Speaker 4 (19:25):
Off from there.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
But I've done it I used to have a set
of gear in La so I would do it when
I was in Los Angeles at a studio out there,
and the pandemic happened to kind of change things. But
so and you know, I go to San Francisco and
I find a rehearsal studios and players and who wants
to play. So it's it's you know, it's a pretty
great way to make music.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Oh man, it sounds like therapy. Really, it sounds it
sounds wonderful. Were you ever able to make it? You
mentioned indirectly Levon Helm. Will you ever make ever able
to make get to Levan's jam sessions that he used
to do that years ago?
Speaker 2 (20:05):
No, No, I mean I've been to the barn, I've
been to concerts, but I've never I mean, I know
all those people up there, but I've never been a
part of that.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Now, so fast forward now to the end of the world.
Congratulations on that work. I know you're proud of that work.
Can take us through the creative process of that. I
know you probably workshop some of it in those sessions,
as you indicated, but talk about your your creative process,
your songwriting process for that project, or in general, all
(20:37):
your work well.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
I never sit down and say I'm going to write
a song about something. So I never sit down and say, Okay,
I'm going to write a group of songs about this.
The song dictates where it's going to go, and whatever
I'm thinking of or going through at that time will
steer that, but I'm not dictating it. So you know,
(21:05):
on this record, there's just no question that a lot
of the stuff on there is a reflection, and in
my mind it's a serious reflection, but I do it
in a somewhat sarcastic, light hearted way often on the songs,
but it's a reflection on the political environment that we're
in right now and the technological environment that we're in
(21:27):
and how I feel about that stuff and how overwhelming
it all is. So there's more than a half. There's
a handful of songs that are clearly that's what's happening,
and then other songs I'm writing about whatever comes out
that day, and whether it's a personal story or just
a pop song. It's again that you know, when you
(21:51):
have the guitar in your hands, that tells you where,
that leads you where you're going.
Speaker 4 (21:57):
In a way, I know that's a little bag.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
But so it's a group of songs that in some
way have to be a reflection of who I am
right now.
Speaker 4 (22:05):
But it's not like I tell you why or dictate that.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
It's just kind of what happens, and this is what
came out at this moment, this group of songs.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
Are you envisioning these songs at the point of creation
on how they will play out in a live environment?
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Initially, no, because I'm literally sitting Almost everything I write
is and it's an acoustic guitar and I use my
thumb and you know, I literally am plucking away quietly.
So initially it's really about you know, rhythm, melody, chord
(22:43):
changes and lyric, and then I think when I go
into room, you bring the rhythm section in, then that
changes instantly, and then I play around with it. You know,
if I'm playing stuff at a jam session, would I
do all the time? It's like, whoever the guy in
that room are, that's what that song is that day.
(23:03):
And I don't really rarely do I tell them somebody
where to go, because I kind of want to hear
what they're going to do.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
And when you.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Play with great players, invariably they're going to take you
somewhere interesting. Now it may not be where the song
ends up, but you're going to have a nice ride
along the way before you figure that out. And then
the studio process is different. And in this case, Adam
Mankoff is a brilliant musician, arranger, composer who I've worked with.
This is the second record I've done with Adam. You know,
(23:33):
he and I spent a lot of time together and
I'll send him a little acoustic thing and then he'll
send back a blown up arrangement with some interesting ideas,
and then we'll decide, you know, okay, how do we
want to cut this in the studio.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
I'm getting the sense that in these studio sessions the
environment is very relaxed, and there can be a comedic
undertone at any given time, but also a serious commitment
to the craft. Is that a fair evaluation of the
vibe of a session.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Yeah, totally, because all of these guys are serious players
and they're all serious about you know, where where it is,
you know, the groove, the part, the melody, whatever it is.
But at the same time, it's completely loose and you know,
we'll go off on and I'm seriously you know, we'll
(24:28):
play it to one cored for ten minutes and everyone
will just go around and solo on it, and then
it'll come back to something else. I'll make something up,
you know. So that's a pretty good description of the
energy in the room.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Talk about some of your other favorites from the End
of the World, including all of them, if you'd like.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Oh well, I mean, there's a song called Love One Another,
which is the first track, and I mean, first off,
I you know it's about something, you know, for me,
it's about something. And I mean I never liked talking
about what song my songs are back is really what
they're about is whatever the listener thinks. It's not what
(25:11):
I think they're about. That matters.
Speaker 4 (25:13):
And you know that that groove, it's a great groove.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
There's a drummer named Tony Mason who's on that track,
and it's brilliant and Adam came up with some really
great parts. The second song, which has Got No Time
for That, which is actually came out of a jam
from twenty years ago and I found on an old recorder,
you know, it was before iPhones.
Speaker 4 (25:35):
I used to use this.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
Thing or I remember one of those. I had one
of those.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Yeah, it's like a voice recorder for office notes or something. Yeah,
And I found this thing that I had done in
a room with a guy named Scott Metzger was on
it is a great guitar player, and I fished this
thing out and then I finished the song with Byron,
you know, about what a year ago or so, And
(26:02):
you know that's you know, that's just a great fun
rock pop song. But it's also about, you know, the
fact that I'm severyone and I'm roadkill to the technology
that we all have to deal with every day. Every
time I want to make a reservation at a restaurant,
I have to put my birth certificate number on it,
you know, and then I get five notices back on
(26:23):
you know, how did you like? You know whatever? It's
just all way too much, and you know, you know
it's my complaint about that much, just everything else.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
Yeah, would you rather that you only had a landline
rather than a cell phone?
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Well, I wish the internet didn't exist, you know. I
we all worked perfectly well before email, and now with texting,
where it's this constant, constant, constant barrage. There's no reflective
time in your day and at work when I was
still working. There was no reflective time. It was just
(26:59):
react of which you know is like an old man complaining, But.
Speaker 4 (27:05):
Yeah, that's I have to say.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Some of the other songs that I'm fond over, the ballads,
I'm I'm going to put a compliation together of just
the ballads because those are always impactful for me. And
there's a couple on this record that I really like.
I think there's like three up them that are all
impactful for me.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
So in closing, I know I led with this, which
I think is I stand by at you in terms
of reinvention and always finding this this rebirth and renaissance.
What advice would you give to somebody listening, whether it's
a musician or just someone at a phase of their
(27:49):
life that's looking for a new chapter and something to
be excited about. What advice would you give to them?
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Well, I mean that's pretty broad, but I think I'm
asked often friends of mine send their kids to me,
or they come to me or they send their kids
about what do we do my son wants a music career,
and what advice you have? And I always say, you know,
find the joy, you know, find something that you love
doing it. And do it for that reason. And you
(28:18):
have to, you know, that's the most important thing, is
that you have to find something that really gives you
that satisfaction. And if you can take that and move
forward with that, that's great. But the end result can't
be big success. It's got to start with you being
passionate about something and you know, following that passion, whether
(28:39):
it's professionally or as an amateur. And you know, a
guy playing phil in a bar at a jam session,
nobody can tell him that he's having any less fun
than somebody that's playing at Madison Square Garden that night.
You know, it's all about, you know, this gratification that
(28:59):
you get from music. In our case, that comes in
every shape and form, and there's no sell by date
on it and there's no quantification on it. So wherever
it happens, however it can happen, that's that's where the
important stuff is.
Speaker 5 (29:16):
Drink that wine up, watch the river Flow, Jimmy Keller,
Bravo on the end of the World, and it's so
fantastic to have you on the Taking a Walk Podcast.
Speaker 4 (29:27):
Thanks thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Taking a
Walk Podcast. Share this and other episodes with your friends
and follow us so you never miss an episode. Taking
a Walk is available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
and wherever you get your podcasts.
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