December 15, 2025 • 39 mins
Takin’ A Walk with Mike Campbell: The Heartbreakers’ Guitar Legend on Tom Petty, Fleetwood Mac, and Rock History
Join host Buzz Knight for an unforgettable replay music interview with Mike Campbell, the legendary guitarist and Rock & Roll Hall of Fame inductee who spent four decades as Tom Petty’s right-hand man in Tom Petty and The Heartbreakers. This essential replay episode captures Campbell’s incredible journey through rock and roll history, from crafting iconic guitar riffs to his work with Fleetwood Mac, Don Henley, and countless other music legends.
In this deep dive music history interview podcast, Mike Campbell shares behind-the-scenes stories from The Heartbreakers’ most celebrated albums, his songwriting partnership with Tom Petty, and the creative process behind classic rock anthems that defined generations. Discover how this guitar virtuoso helped shape the sound of American rock music, his experiences recording with legendary producers, and his transition to Fleetwood Mac following Lindsey Buckingham’s departure.
Whether you’re a Tom Petty fan, guitar enthusiast, classic rock devotee, or music history buff, this episode delivers intimate insights from one of rock’s most respected musicians. Mike Campbell discusses his vintage guitar collection, studio techniques, touring life, and the enduring legacy of The Heartbreakers.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Taking a Walk. I rarely work things out. I like
to go off the cup and try to grab things
out of the air while you're playing the song and
try to catch a little magic. It's spontaneous because I
think that the listeners can consense that you're discovering it
when they are.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to the Taking a Walk Podcast, the podcast where
your host Buzz Night delves into the stories behind the
music with the musicians who make an ABN. Today, Buzz
is joined by guitarist Mike Campbell. Mike was part of
Tom Betty and the Heartbreakers for many years. He also
composed and played on Boys of Summer and Heart of
(00:35):
the Matter by Don Henley and most of Stevie Nick's
solo records. He also joined Fleetwood Mac to replace Lindsey
Buckingham on the twenty eighteen and twenty nineteen tour. Now,
Mike is out on tour with his band The Dirty Knobs,
and he'll take some time to talk with Buzz about
their new release, Vagabonds, Virgins and Misfits. Mike Campbell joins
(00:57):
Buzz Night on Taking a Walk.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Mike Campbell, so awesome to have you on the Taking
a Walk Podcast, celebrating the release of Vagabonds, Virgins and Misfits.
Have you been hanging around Tom Waits lately?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
I wish I could hang out with Tom Waits, but no,
I haven't seen Tom.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
It's a great title, and I absolutely love the album.
We're going to get into talking about, certainly the work
with Lucinda Williams and Chris Stapleton and Graham Nash and
in Benmont as well, and of course the great Dirty Knobs.
Is it hard for you to comprehend that this is
(01:40):
the third Dirty Knobs album?
Speaker 1 (01:44):
No, I can comprehend it. I did all the work.
It's pretty well comprehended. There's a lot of blood and
sweat on those tapes. But no, I'm in this groove now.
You know. I'm in the moving forward with this band
and my own right, and I can comprehend going on
even farther with this.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
And you seem to be absolutely having a joyful time.
I am.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
I'm very grateful to be here. I love what I
do and I'm very proud of the work that the
band has done with me.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
So you were just out celebrating the fiftieth anniversary out
at the Church studio where Mud Crutch first hit the
scene back with the great Leon Russell and Shelter. Tell
me about first of all going back, how it felt,
and tell me how you remember that experience fifty years ago.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Yeah. I was very honored that Tulsa and the church
people asked me to come back and honor that place.
They've restored it really well. And so we went out
there and I had an out of body experience walking
into that room after decades where it all kind of
started with us in Cordell and Shelter records. I walked
(03:00):
into the room that Tom and I and Ben and
Random marsh the bridgeal Mud Crutch walked into that room
with Denny Cordellman. We didn't know how to record at all,
but I remember standing in that room and just looking
at each other and we thought we'd made the big time.
You know. We were in a church studio at Leon
Russell's town, you know, but we didn't know what we
(03:22):
were doing. But I did have a flashback standing there
last week. I could see my brother Tom's ghost and
feel those old feelings again. It was kind of touching,
you know, in a lot of ways, in a good way.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
And when you were out initially there with Leon Russell.
Did you have a deep understanding of what an amazing
musician and career he had had.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Yeah? I love Leon Russell. I used to see him
play in Gainsville when he passed through town, and of
course I'd seen the Mad Dogs and Englishman Tour and
all that, those great players in his band. But to
be honest, Leon wasn't there. We first went through Tulsa.
We were hooked up with Denny Cornell, who was Leon's
partner and our producer. We didn't see Leon until a
(04:12):
while later out in La but he was not there
at the church that first time we came through town.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
But that's amazing. You had this spiritual experience there that
you clearly felt right.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Yeah, Yeah, you could see it in the video where
I'm standing in that room. We did a video of
this new song there to Dream, and you can see
that I'm having a moment, you know, a positive emotional moment.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
The video is amazing, and it really evokes a tremendous
feeling and a sense of some optimism that we all need,
don't you.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Think, absolutely, don't we? The world is a wicked place
these days. It seems almost more wicked than it used
to be. But yeah, I think, you know, as an
artist or songwriter, and Tom was the same way. And
I think not to compare myself to the Beatles, but
I like the thing with the Beatles always had a
(05:10):
positive Most of their songs were about peace and love,
you know, every now and then John Lennon would throw
in I'm a loser, But generally speaking our songs with
the Heartbreakers, we always tried to aim toward hope and redemption,
you know. And if the song maybe has a dark character,
at least by the end you hope there's some way
(05:31):
he's going to get out of his predicament, then life
will be better. And so if this song in some
ways makes people feel that maybe life can be better
than I've done my job.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
It's a wonderful song and having Graham on it is
a super special. How did you happen upon asking Graham
to appear on this.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Well, it took a lot of courage. I had met
Graham before a few times on tour. They had opened
for us, and I had done a gig and KOHI
with him once a benefit, and he came by and
did my little radio show that I do on Tom
Petty Radio and at the end of the interview, I
kind of sheepishly said, you know, would you maybe want
to sing on one of our tracks? And said, sure,
(06:15):
I'll make your song better, and he did, you know,
God bless him. So I sent him the tape. And
I am a huge child of the sixties, the Hollies,
the Beatles, Animals and Stones and the Hollies. I always
just loved their vocals and Graham was a large part
of that high harmony. And so I said him the
song and I got it back and I was just
(06:36):
blown away that he kind of captured some of that
holly blend on the song for me. And I couldn't
have been happier, you know, to have a hero on
your song. I mean, come on, I.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
Love the show on Tom Petty Radio. By the way,
you make it look very easy. How do you make
it look so easy?
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Well, it's just you and me. We're just talking, you know.
I like they asked me. You know that the Tom
Petty Radio on Sirius XEM is a good station, and
Tom started it and was deeply involved with the show.
And now that he's gone, we want to keep the
show alive and keep playing his music and our music
and so they Ben Mutt does a DJ show, and
(07:20):
I think Stan Lynch and Steve Roni are also doing
DJ shows where they come on and talk and play songs.
And they asked me if I would want to help,
and I didn't want to do that because I don't
really feel like I'm a DJ type person. But I said,
if I can do, you know, interviews and conversations with
other people about music, then that would be interesting to me.
So that's what my show is all about. Just getting
(07:41):
someone that I respect, or that you know, knows about
us and just talk about music and have a conversation
like you and I are. Now that's the idea behind it.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
It's excellent. I love it. So you got a guitar
at sixteen years old? Is that right?
Speaker 1 (07:57):
That's about right? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (07:59):
And what of guitar was this?
Speaker 1 (08:01):
It was basically unplayable, but I didn't know at the time.
It was the fifteen dollars pawnsh up Harmony Archtop Acoustic,
and I begged my mom. We didn't have much money,
but I begged her for a guitar, and she scraped
up the fifteen bucks and got me this thing, and
I learned how to play on it. But it was unplayable.
Now I look back on the strings were real high
off the neck and my fingers would literally bleed. I'd
(08:24):
be trying so hard until I went over to her
friend's house and he had a Gibson and I pick
it up and I went, oh my god, this isn't
hard at all. It's easy. I've been struggling, you know,
But my first guitar. It taught me how to, you know,
play hard. And I was just hooked as soon as
I got the guitar, and nothing else mattered. It was
all about the guitar.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
Do you remember the first solo that you learned Johnny
be Good?
Speaker 1 (08:49):
I learned it off the radio. I didn't have a teacher,
I never took guitar lessons, but I heard that on
the radio, and somehow I managed. I guess I had
an affinity for the and I just figured it out
on the guitar. And I just love Chuck Berry and
that song. I connected with it, you know. I felt like,
you know, a poor boy trying to dream about making
it someday. And I just identified with the way Chuck plays.
(09:10):
And I still get chills from out here and play.
There's something about him and the way he plays guitar,
the double stop thing that I tried to emulate.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Did you ever perfect the duck walk?
Speaker 1 (09:21):
No, I'm still working on that. Nobody can quite do
it like him. I've seen people try, but Chuck had
the way. Yeah. He was quite a performer, amazing person.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Yeah, a little bit of mojo, wouldn't you say?
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Yeah, Yeah, he has some mojo and his songwriting, you know,
his character, his originality, you know, he created that thing.
There's so many of us have you know, borrowed from
over the years, and he's still my top three guitar
players of all time.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
You mind listing the other two?
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Well, there's more than three really, but took of course
Jimi Hendrix because he was just ridiculously out of control,
crazy good. I liked Mike Bloomfield a lot in the
early days. I had the Paul Butterfield records, and I
had that Harmony guitar and record, and I would slow
the record down, you know, to sixteen, so I could
(10:16):
hear what the guitar was doing. And that's how I
learned that he was bending the notes. You know, I
didn't know you could bend the notes on the guitar
and so, you know, but there's you know, Keith Richards,
George Harrison, Roger McGlenn, there's so many. That era was
just incredible for guitar players. You know. It's not like
that anymore. But I'm happy I was there to be
inspired by all that stuff when I was learning.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
And you completely self taught though.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Well. Yeah, when I was a kid in school, my
parents forced me to take accordion lessons for a couple
of months, and I learned the basics of scales and
chords and things on that a little bit. But when
I got the guitar, I just taught myself off my ear.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
You know, what was the first concert that you ever
went to?
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Oh, the first concert would have been to Beach Boys
at the Jacksonville Coliseum. I think the bill was it
was one of those Dick Clark things. I think they
had a bunch of artists on, like Del Shannon and
Sam the Sham and the Payohs and different bands, and
then the Beach Boys came on as the headliner at
(11:23):
the end, and they just completely blew me away. They
sam it just like their records, you know, And I
loved that that dream, that a California dream of hope
and happiness living in you know, Jacksonville. That sounds pretty
good to me, I'm sure.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
So tell me about what pawn shops mean to you
when it comes to the discovery of guitars, which mean
the world to you.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Yeah, pawn shops You're a gold mine, you know, especially
in the early days when I couldn't afford much, you
could get a good deal in a pawnshop. You know.
I got my first Firebird Gibson in a pawn shop
for I think one hundred and twenty bucks and it
was just ironic. Recently on the Pleetwood Mac tour when
I was out with them, we were in Philadelphia and
(12:11):
I went by a pawn shop and I found a
white Firebird and that's become my main guitar, like touring
guitar now. So I'm back to the Firebirds again. But
you know, it's hard to find deals now because the
word is out that, you know, these instruments are valuable.
But I used to always go on days off with
the Heartbreakers, Me and maybe you know, Scott Thurston or
(12:34):
Rohn and Blair. We go out and find a pawn
shop and try to dig up an old gym, you know,
occasionally you get something really cool. Most of my guitars
are old, vintage stuff and nowadays, though, I was lucky
to find that white Firebird because nowadays it's hard to
find deals.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
Is there anything in particular you're on the lookout for?
Speaker 1 (12:54):
You know, my Brodie keeps asking, sending me stuff. Do
you want this? Do you want this? I've already got
one of those I would like to get. I might
want to get an epiphone coronet. I think it's called
Real light Del Shannon had one, Real Lightweight and they
sound pretty good. Steve Marriott played one and I think
(13:14):
in the Small Faces. But I'm not on a hunt.
I've got too many. I need to get him away.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
You know, what did the loss of Dwayne Eddie mean
to you as a guitarist.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Well, Dwayne was a huge influence. I mean he was
one of the first, if not the first, instrumental guitar player,
the rebel rouser and because they're young and moving and
grooving all those great instrumentals that were on the radio
when I was learning, and I learned those songs off
the radio too. You know, anytime an artist of that
stature leaves us, it's always a loss. You know, but
(13:50):
I really liked his guitar in his tone. You know,
he had that gretched tone, deep throaty, y, broad to
his tone, and he was an intervat you know, rebel Rouser.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
You knew it was him when you heard him, right, Yeah,
he was.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
A Yeah, he was an icon, and he was ahead
of the curve. You know, there weren't that many guitar
instrumentals out at that time, maybe Samto and Johnny and
a few others, but his was a very you know,
recognizable style and tone, and I like to try to
go for that sound sometimes. You know.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
What I thought was interesting. I was talking to Steve
Howe from Yes on the podcast and even you know,
some of the great British prog rock guitarists looked up
to Dwayne Eddie in a big way. He impacted them
as well.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
The twang's the thing. Have twang will travel, you know, Yeah,
and just a big He made the guitar sound so
big and full, and his songs are really cool, cool
riffs and simple, you know, not like showy, but melodic
and tough sound. And I try to play that way too,
(15:03):
So I.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
Was hoping we could go back to I'm just going
to pick three of my favorites, which really is difficult
for me because I've got another three hundred favorites from
your work with Tom and the Heartbreakers. But can you
take us back into what you recall the creation, either
solo wise or session wise of well, first American Girl
(15:26):
would be the one I wanted to ask about.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Yeah, I remember cutting American Girl. It was on the
fourth of July and we were at the Shelter we
called it the Brown Room, the Shelter Studios, which had
compensated the API console from tulsaon and put it in
the office there on Hollywood Boulevard, and that's where we
did our first two records. And Tom was beginning to
(15:50):
blossom as a writer, and he brought in Breakdown and
Wild One Forever, and then he brought in an American
Girl one day and it was like it was a
no brainer. This is a great song, you know. And
he had the Bo Diddley chords and I wanted to
put a twelve string on it, but I couldn't have
I didn't have one. We couldn't afford a twelve string
at the time. I had a broadcaster, which is still
(16:10):
my main guitar. So I was trying to get a
twelve string sound with the drone octaves. Danga dang dan
dang dang. That's octaves on a sixth string, trying to
sound like a twelve string. And so that was the
genesis of that sound. And between Tom's guitar and that
high droning and the voicings of my chords going up
(16:32):
against his chords down low, that became the Heartbreaker's guitar
sound basically. And so when I hear that song now
I can hear the formation of the band. That was
where we found our thing, you know. And at the
end of the song, A funny story there's I was
just I make a lot of stuff up on the track.
I don't work it out too much. At the end,
I just started doing those triples because I got bored
(16:56):
or didn't know what to do. And I thought it
was goofy, you know, and Tom goes, oh, you gotta
double that. I said, no, it sounds too much like
something else, you know. No, he said, that's really good.
Double it. And now it's like this on the fade,
that's that signature guitar partner goes out. So he was
right about.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
That and that's where you kind of it probably came
into form as your own process of improvising through sessions
and sort of the you know, continuous creation of something
till you get it right. Is that correct?
Speaker 1 (17:27):
It is correct. I rarely worked things out. I like
to go off the cuff and try to grab things
out of the air while you're playing the song and
try to catch a little magic. That's it's spontaneous. That's
what I try to do, and that's what that song
was about. And just to go back, I don't want
to get through technical But you talked about Duane Eddie.
There's also Chad Atkins who was a big influence on me,
(17:47):
and it was because I had been teaching myself Chad
Atkins on that song American Girl at the end, that's
a fingerpicking thing. Didn't literally have to use your you know,
a couple of fingers to get that. And I got
that from Chedd Atkins, that technique, so I owe that
to him too. But yeah, I like to just go
off the cuff. Breakdown was an off the cuff. That
opening riff was something that I did on the track mindlessly,
(18:11):
stream of consciousness. At the end of the track, I
played that once or twice as I as it was
getting to the end of a long jam, and then
they called me up and said, you know that lucky
play at the end should be at the beginning of
the song. It'll be like a catch for the song
in a hook. So I went back down and learned
it and played it on the front of the song,
so that you know. I like to grab things out
of the air that are unexpected, because I think the
(18:34):
listeners can consense that you're discovering it when they are.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
It's beautiful. Tell me about You Got Lucky. What you
remember about that whole process and the session and solos
and the creation of it.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
You Got Lucky was written on a synthesizer. The chords,
that whole thing I had done with three fingers. I'm
not much on the keyboards, but I had a made
a drum loop which I was into at the time,
and I had that keyboard line and the chords and
we got I didn't have the sort of with a
(19:12):
Clint Eastwood movie Italian Western kind of solo, Eam Marconi
thing which is in the middle. That was Tom's idea,
say why don't you go play something like a James
bond thing on the middle. So I had a strate
to just come into Mayl and I went out down, down, down, down,
So that was I came up with the line. Actually,
that line was on the keyboard line at the beginning
(19:33):
of the song, so I just copied that on the
guitar and did it with the vibrato n that so
that Tom suggested that I do that there, and I
just think he wrote a great lyric to that. So
I was so happy every time I would give him
piece of music, if he was inspired to write words,
it was always great, you know. I was lucky that way.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
And then tell me about the Waiting and the creation
of the Waiting, and in particular, is it true you've
all also played bass on the Waiting?
Speaker 1 (20:02):
I did. Yeah, I played bass, no difference to Ron,
who's an incredibly a lot better bass player than I am.
But on the songs of mine that if I had
a demo, I would put a rough bass on it
just to find how it should go, and then sometimes
we would end up I'd have to play it because
that was the right vibe for the song. On the Waiting,
(20:23):
for some reason, Ron wasn't there that day or something,
so I ended up playing the bass. And what's interesting
about that song, which I love, one of my favorite
songs of his, it's very birdsy. At the end on
the bass, the guitar wasn't I hadn't done my guitar
part yet. On the end at the bass where it
breaks down, the bass goes do do Do Do Do
(20:44):
Do Do doo. That was a bass line, and so
when I went to do the guitar, I found that
once again the high octaves to sound my guitarl say
gang Gang Gang. So that came from the bass part.
So that was also just a stream of conscious this
moment where that line came in when I was doing
the base. But if you're if you're clever, and you
(21:06):
listen to what you're doing, you can grab little things
that you didn't expect that happen, little pieces of magic.
And if you can catch them and and you know,
mind them, I think that makes for good music.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
We'll be right back with more of the Taking a
Walk Podcast. Welcome back to the Taking a Walk Podcast.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
Let's talk about the magic you created on Vagabonds, Virgins
and Misfits. I just absolutely love this, uh cover to cover,
as we would say, you've got some great folks that
are helping you out here, Lucinda Williams and Chris Stapleton,
Graham Nash of course, and Benmont talk about how this
(21:55):
project came together.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Well, it was gonna it's a Dirty Knobs album, and
I started writing songs for the sessions, and we came in.
I like to cut live with the Dirty Knobs, much
as the Heartbreakers were doing near the end of their
career and the very beginning of our career. We always
played live in the studio, and The Dirty Knobs is
very much spontaneous solos on the fly, you know. I
(22:19):
tried to get it on tape before they know it
too well, so it kind of sounds a little rough
and rowdy. But so I was writing some songs for
the album and we started recording with our producer, Georgia Coolias.
We recorded about twenty five songs or more, and then
I was reassessing all the songs, trying to narrow it
(22:40):
down to what an album might be. And my wife
actually suggested, you should go back to your tape blocker,
because I've got closets full of two inch tape of
demos I did back twenty years ago, and I didn't
want to do that, because I don't like to go back.
I like to keep moving forward. But she said, no,
you might have overlooked something. So I went in there
started listening to those things, and I found four or
(23:01):
five things that ended up on this record because I
thought the songs were good and they fit into what
I was trying to do. And a few of them
we actually used those tapes and built up from them
because they had the vibe. And so half the record
is older songs, and half the record is number songs
and the other records laying on the floor for the
next record.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Well, let's talk about some of the cuts. First of all,
the greatest that is the greatest one of those that
you took off the shelf, and.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
That's a new under It was one of the first
songs I wrote for the album, and I was we
had come off a great tour and I wanted to
write a song that was a thank you to the crowd,
you know that, And so that song is, you know,
you are the greatest of the audience, you know. I
just wanted to give back how much appreciation we have
for them being there, And so that song kind of
(23:49):
built out of that, you know, And it just became
this drone beatlesy harmony kind of I don't know what
you'd call it, kind of psychedelic in a way, but
it's a gift back to the audience.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
I love it. And tell me about Angel of Mercy.
The creation of that.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Angela Mercy is an old song that was not in
the tape blocker. I had tried it on the first
two albums to cut it because I liked this song
and it goes back quite away the Dirty nam She
when we were playing bars when we first got started
around LA we played that song live. So we tried
it again for the third album and it didn't really
(24:28):
measure up, and so we basically had finished the record
and Georgia Trulius came in. He said, you know, I've
been listening to that song. You guys should cut it again.
Let's make it sound like a proper record, you know.
So I said, okay, And so at that point Steve
Ronnie came in because I needed a drummer, and he
played drums on that one song and it made the record.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
We talked about Dare to Dream, which is the single
with Graham Nash, which is just such a you know,
fun uplifting, optimistic song. And I want to talk about
hands or tied and and that, Yeah, that guitar, what
guitar are you playing on that? That produces such a
(25:11):
unique sound there.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
You know, I'm trying to remember. I know it's a
it's a It's got it by broad up Arm. I
think it was a gretch cranked up through a nap
because I know it's got like a Neil youngish By
brought out arm vibe on it. I think it was
a gritch clipper that I have, same guitar I used
and I won't back down. And that was an old
(25:35):
song that I dug up. And that's one of my
favorite songs. It's a very emotional song and it's it's
a little dark, but it's one it's you know, it's
someone's in trouble, the girl or whoever is having a
really hard time and you want to help her, you know,
and it's like whatever it is. It could be drugs,
it could be illness, whatever it is, and you know,
(25:56):
I want to help you. My hands are tied, you know,
I hope hope works out, you know kind of thing. So,
and it's also I like that song. It's got a
time signature change in it. It goes which I heard
I rarely do. I usually write in four four or
three four. This one has a five four section at
the top and at the end. And another thing I
like about that song is my wife is so shy,
(26:20):
you know, and I've always asked her over the years,
why don't you come in and sing on something. I'll
make you sound good, don't worry, you know, And she
never wanted to. And then one day on this record,
she came in, I'd like to sing on this record.
So on that song she just comes in, ah, and
we later her to make this great bed and it
really gives a song a spiritual quality. So I'm was
(26:40):
proud of her for doing that.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
That's great.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
That the guitar is is emotional and sweet, and the
words are you know, spiritual too.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
You know, almost evokes sort of that town without pity
sort of sound, you know a little bit.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
I also think that I didn't notice this till recently,
that the guitar, which was a stream of consciousness line,
it's kind of reminiscent of breakdown a little bit, you know.
And I think it's that same guy, whoever that guy
in me is that placed in that mode. It has
a little bit of that element in it, and then
(27:22):
of course at the end it goes into the old
Jimmy Hendrix kind of swirly thing. Yeah, thank you for
mentioning that song. I like that one quite a bit.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
Oh, I love it. And then you have Hell or
High Water where that force of nature Lucinda Williams emerges
in that song. What a brilliant A brilliant song, brilliant collaboration.
Talk about how you collaborated with her.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Yeah, that's a new song that I wrote for the album,
and I'm very proud of that one because of it's
a lyrical workout. You know, it's a story, there's a character,
and there's a little movie and there's a lot of
wordplay in it, which I'm starting to really enjoy doing.
And so we cut it live and I sang it
most my vocal is live. And then on reflection, I thought,
(28:16):
you know, there's this character in the song, this girl
that this guy meets up with and goes into this
shadowy world for a moment, and I thought, wouldn't it
be great if we had a female voice in there
to come in and be that character? And I thought
of Lucinda once again. She had done my show and
I said, would you maybe consider singing on the song?
(28:37):
And she was real shy about it, but she came
in and she added such a depth of soul to it.
You know, God bless her. She's so good and she
really makes the song for me.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
Yeah, it's so memorable, My god. Can you talk about
the song? So alive and in particular just the that grinding,
those sounds that you get out of the guitars there,
what is that?
Speaker 1 (29:04):
It's live? It's uh. I think it's tuned down to D.
The low string is tuned down for a deep growl,
and it's just a burst of adrenaline. You know. It's
just like I feel so alive every time I see you.
You know, it's kind of almost corny, but the music
I think gets it some depth and it's just a
it's just a you know, dirty Noms at their best
(29:25):
and the solos live on the floor, you know, mistakes
and all, but it's just I just see it as
a burst of adrenaline. And we got Steve Fardy just singing,
oh oh oh there. It's hilarious.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
I love it. Don't wait up with Chris Stapleton and
benmont Tench. That is another stellar collaboration. And tell me
how that came together.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
That was an older song that we had played in
the bars before and I had a I discovered a
two inch tape analog version of it that was really
really good, and I tied you it up a little bit,
and Chris Stapleton was over to write one day or something,
and I begged him to sing on it, which he did.
(30:14):
He sang great. And Ben Mott came over one day
and we said, I have a Steinway in my living room.
He barely used it. We set up the MIC's in
there for him and he did one take of Jerry
Lewis on it. It's tremendous and it's a funny song,
you know. It's the words are kind of you know,
I Am the Walrus, a little bit like nonsense of
(30:34):
COVID and a weird way that kind of make sense,
and it's just kind of got a sense of humor
in it. But it's a real burst of adrenaline. You know.
The guys are really going for especially our bass player
Crawdaddy Lance Morrison. He just altered the album. He's just
pumping it. He's so good.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
Yeah, talk about Lance Morrison and how you love playing
with these guys in the Dirty Knobs.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
Our guitar is a guy named Chris Holt. We call
him Sidewinder. He's from Texas too, and he's all over
this new record. He is a real breath of fresh air.
He's a great singer. He can play piano. A lot
of the piano you hear is him and the guitar.
He's just incredible. And his voice sounds real good with
(31:17):
mine because I need a lot of help, but he
makes me sound better. And like, there's another song on
the album called Shake These Blues, which is kind of
a rave hut, and we cut the track live and
I said to Chris, I said, when we get to
to your solo, just make something up, you know. He's like,
and he did. He was right on the money. He
nailed it, you know. And he's like that I could
(31:38):
just look at him, I could do this and you go,
all right, you'll do it better than I thought he would.
So he's Chris Holt is a real find. And so
I'm lucky to have those guys. And now Steve Feroni
on the drums is quite a band.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
I would say so speaking a sense of humor too,
my old friends. That one made me smile.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Good at this job. Well, you know, that's a I
wasn't going to put it on the record because I
thought it was a little, you know, in joke, but
Georgia Cruleier said no, it woul sound great at the end,
you know, just a little breath of fresh air at
the end, and little humor is good. And that's obviously
just me discovering how to play with words, you know.
I got this idea that there's all these alcoholic drinks
(32:22):
that could be people, you know, because they have names
like Don perry On or Captain Morgan. So I figured
I'll just make the drinks the characters in the song,
you know, but say goodbye to them because you can't
get sucked into that world, you know. So it's a
tongue in cheeks song, but it is fun and Chris
Stapleton actually sings harmony on it too, which is good.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
And tell me about Innocent Man. Since we've covered I
think everything other than a mand the Lynn, tell me
about Innocent Man as well.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
It's got that droney kind of I don't know what
to compare it to. It's kind of Appalachian or Irish Alma.
But it's got that riff in it, and it's got
another story song which I had these characters, and it's
also an old song that I used to play back
in the bars and that I pulled out and refined
it a bit. But I like it because it's like
(33:13):
a movie, you know, you could. There's a lot of
descriptive characters throughout the song, and it's partly autobiographical. There's
a version there where it talks about the attack training
dogs coming on the bus and snipping around for drugs,
which actually happened to the Heartbreakers. Once it's going into Canada.
We had stopped and put all our pot and stuff
and a hotel room on the American side. We'll pick
(33:35):
it up after we come back, you know. So we're
going across the border at four in the morning, and
they stopped the bus and the German shepherd came on
the bus and went straight for our tour manager's coat
and he had a little half of a joint that he
forgot about. So they drug us in, you know, in
the freezing cold, and made a strip search and all
that shit. So that made its way into the song.
So there's a little bit of that now. The title.
(33:57):
When I first wrote it, I was calling it immigrant man,
you know. And then George Coulius one day he goes,
you know, that's that's a cool idea, but you might
get a little you know, political whatever from that, And
I said, yeah, maybe, So he said, what if you
call it innocent man? He said, you know what, that's better.
It's got a wider palette. So I gave him credit
(34:19):
for co writing a song.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
Tell me what you have learned from being around two
of the greats besides Tom obviously Don Henley and Bob Dylan.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Well, how lucky am I? You know, my life is
like that. You know, things have been throughout my life
just been charmed. Things have dropped in my lap, you know.
And the thing with Don Henley boys this summer was
just something that was a chain of events that Jimmy
I have Ben kind of spearheaded that track because Tom
didn't hear what to do with it at that time.
(34:59):
He later said to me, Tom said to me, you know,
I shouldn't have let that one get away. Might have
been in my presence of mind, I would have kept
that one, but it ended up. But with Don and
he did an amazing, amazing job, and I'm really proud
of that song. And Don is just you know, he's
one of the greats, you know, and he's always been
really kind to me and very generous with the songs
(35:21):
that we've done. And of course Bob Dylan showed up
in our lives. We did a world tour with him
with the Heartbreakers, which was very inspirational and eye opening
and just being around someone who's that special and deep.
I hope some of it rubbed off, but you know,
(35:44):
he was just so full of wisdom. He said to
me once, when you're writing a song, don't just write
three verses in a chorus, you know, write twenty verses,
you know, because you know, while you're in that place
you're you know, number fourteen fifteen might be great that
you would never have gotten to them. So you know,
channel and work for better lyrics, you know, And so
(36:06):
I try to emulate that. I've learned a lot from
him just watching them.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
So tell me how much you're looking forward to being
out on the road.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
Oh, I can't wait the band. You got all these
new songs to learn, you know, we have a whole
new set. We'll have to let some of the old
songs go by the wayside for a while and work
in all the I'm going to play most of the
songs off the new record, and we've got a great
opening act as girl. Shannon McNally is going to open
the tour for us, and the band is ready to go.
(36:35):
You know, I missed the crowds, and I missed the whole.
I like being on the road, you know, and I
like playing for people. And we've got to the stage
where we can play theaters now. You know, we're not
in the biker bars. Not there's anything wrong with biker bars,
but I like the theaters better because it sounds better
and they're a little bigger, and so we've worked up
(36:56):
to that stage. I mean they're small theaters, some of
them are medium size. But that'll make it a lot
more fun, you know. We'll have better venues and Steve
Feroni on the drums on this tour. He'll be a
lot of fun to play with, and the crowd loves him,
and we get to play all these new songs. I'm
just jazzed, you know. It's that's what I do. I
write songs and go play them, you know.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
Will you be writing on the road, continuously move them forward.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
I write all the time. I have found typically on
the road I'm so drained from the tour the gigs
that I don't write that much. I tend to write
more when I'm at home and I have you know,
free time. But every now and then I might get
a sketch of an idea and I'll put it down.
But mostly I'm focused on the gigs when I'm traveling.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
So as someone who is continuously learning in your craft,
in closing, what haven't you learned that you.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
Want to learn? Well, I want to learn to be
a better singer, a better writer, and a better guitar player.
And you can always get better as the beauty of
the guitar and music in general. You know, the more
you learn, the more there is to learn. I just
want to get better mostly though the guitar is kind
of I kind of just do that instinctively. I don't
(38:16):
have to work at it too hard. It just comes
to me. But the singing, I'm working on finding my
own voice and writing my own characters and putting songs
together that you know, hopefully will inspire people. You know,
I know I can get better at that so I'm
going to keep struggling with that to get as good
as I can.
Speaker 3 (38:36):
I am so grateful that we got to spend this
time together. Mike Campbell, Vagabonds, Virgins and Misfits. Go check
it out. It is an amazing record, and Mike, thank
you for the time, but thank you for all the
great music you continue to give us.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Well. You're very welcome, and thank you bus for taking
the time from me today.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Taking a
Walk podcast. Share this and other episodes with your friends
and follow us so you never miss an episode. Taking
a Walk is available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
and wherever you get your podcasts.
Taking a Walk. I rarely work things out. I like
to go off the cup and try to grab things
out of the air while you're playing the song and
try to catch a little magic. It's spontaneous because I
think that the listeners can consense that you're discovering it
when they are.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to the Taking a Walk Podcast, the podcast where
your host Buzz Night delves into the stories behind the
music with the musicians who make an ABN. Today, Buzz
is joined by guitarist Mike Campbell. Mike was part of
Tom Betty and the Heartbreakers for many years. He also
composed and played on Boys of Summer and Heart of
(00:35):
the Matter by Don Henley and most of Stevie Nick's
solo records. He also joined Fleetwood Mac to replace Lindsey
Buckingham on the twenty eighteen and twenty nineteen tour. Now,
Mike is out on tour with his band The Dirty Knobs,
and he'll take some time to talk with Buzz about
their new release, Vagabonds, Virgins and Misfits. Mike Campbell joins
(00:57):
Buzz Night on Taking a Walk.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Mike Campbell, so awesome to have you on the Taking
a Walk Podcast, celebrating the release of Vagabonds, Virgins and Misfits.
Have you been hanging around Tom Waits lately?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
I wish I could hang out with Tom Waits, but no,
I haven't seen Tom.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
It's a great title, and I absolutely love the album.
We're going to get into talking about, certainly the work
with Lucinda Williams and Chris Stapleton and Graham Nash and
in Benmont as well, and of course the great Dirty Knobs.
Is it hard for you to comprehend that this is
(01:40):
the third Dirty Knobs album?
Speaker 1 (01:44):
No, I can comprehend it. I did all the work.
It's pretty well comprehended. There's a lot of blood and
sweat on those tapes. But no, I'm in this groove now.
You know. I'm in the moving forward with this band
and my own right, and I can comprehend going on
even farther with this.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
And you seem to be absolutely having a joyful time.
I am.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
I'm very grateful to be here. I love what I
do and I'm very proud of the work that the
band has done with me.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
So you were just out celebrating the fiftieth anniversary out
at the Church studio where Mud Crutch first hit the
scene back with the great Leon Russell and Shelter. Tell
me about first of all going back, how it felt,
and tell me how you remember that experience fifty years ago.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Yeah. I was very honored that Tulsa and the church
people asked me to come back and honor that place.
They've restored it really well. And so we went out
there and I had an out of body experience walking
into that room after decades where it all kind of
started with us in Cordell and Shelter records. I walked
(03:00):
into the room that Tom and I and Ben and
Random marsh the bridgeal Mud Crutch walked into that room
with Denny Cordellman. We didn't know how to record at all,
but I remember standing in that room and just looking
at each other and we thought we'd made the big time.
You know. We were in a church studio at Leon
Russell's town, you know, but we didn't know what we
(03:22):
were doing. But I did have a flashback standing there
last week. I could see my brother Tom's ghost and
feel those old feelings again. It was kind of touching,
you know, in a lot of ways, in a good way.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
And when you were out initially there with Leon Russell.
Did you have a deep understanding of what an amazing
musician and career he had had.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Yeah? I love Leon Russell. I used to see him
play in Gainsville when he passed through town, and of
course I'd seen the Mad Dogs and Englishman Tour and
all that, those great players in his band. But to
be honest, Leon wasn't there. We first went through Tulsa.
We were hooked up with Denny Cornell, who was Leon's
partner and our producer. We didn't see Leon until a
(04:12):
while later out in La but he was not there
at the church that first time we came through town.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
But that's amazing. You had this spiritual experience there that
you clearly felt right.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Yeah, Yeah, you could see it in the video where
I'm standing in that room. We did a video of
this new song there to Dream, and you can see
that I'm having a moment, you know, a positive emotional moment.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
The video is amazing, and it really evokes a tremendous
feeling and a sense of some optimism that we all need,
don't you.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Think, absolutely, don't we? The world is a wicked place
these days. It seems almost more wicked than it used
to be. But yeah, I think, you know, as an
artist or songwriter, and Tom was the same way. And
I think not to compare myself to the Beatles, but
I like the thing with the Beatles always had a
(05:10):
positive Most of their songs were about peace and love,
you know, every now and then John Lennon would throw
in I'm a loser, But generally speaking our songs with
the Heartbreakers, we always tried to aim toward hope and redemption,
you know. And if the song maybe has a dark character,
at least by the end you hope there's some way
(05:31):
he's going to get out of his predicament, then life
will be better. And so if this song in some
ways makes people feel that maybe life can be better
than I've done my job.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
It's a wonderful song and having Graham on it is
a super special. How did you happen upon asking Graham
to appear on this.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Well, it took a lot of courage. I had met
Graham before a few times on tour. They had opened
for us, and I had done a gig and KOHI
with him once a benefit, and he came by and
did my little radio show that I do on Tom
Petty Radio and at the end of the interview, I
kind of sheepishly said, you know, would you maybe want
to sing on one of our tracks? And said, sure,
(06:15):
I'll make your song better, and he did, you know,
God bless him. So I sent him the tape. And
I am a huge child of the sixties, the Hollies,
the Beatles, Animals and Stones and the Hollies. I always
just loved their vocals and Graham was a large part
of that high harmony. And so I said him the
song and I got it back and I was just
(06:36):
blown away that he kind of captured some of that
holly blend on the song for me. And I couldn't
have been happier, you know, to have a hero on
your song. I mean, come on, I.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
Love the show on Tom Petty Radio. By the way,
you make it look very easy. How do you make
it look so easy?
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Well, it's just you and me. We're just talking, you know.
I like they asked me. You know that the Tom
Petty Radio on Sirius XEM is a good station, and
Tom started it and was deeply involved with the show.
And now that he's gone, we want to keep the
show alive and keep playing his music and our music
and so they Ben Mutt does a DJ show, and
(07:20):
I think Stan Lynch and Steve Roni are also doing
DJ shows where they come on and talk and play songs.
And they asked me if I would want to help,
and I didn't want to do that because I don't
really feel like I'm a DJ type person. But I said,
if I can do, you know, interviews and conversations with
other people about music, then that would be interesting to me.
So that's what my show is all about. Just getting
(07:41):
someone that I respect, or that you know, knows about
us and just talk about music and have a conversation
like you and I are. Now that's the idea behind it.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
It's excellent. I love it. So you got a guitar
at sixteen years old? Is that right?
Speaker 1 (07:57):
That's about right? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (07:59):
And what of guitar was this?
Speaker 1 (08:01):
It was basically unplayable, but I didn't know at the time.
It was the fifteen dollars pawnsh up Harmony Archtop Acoustic,
and I begged my mom. We didn't have much money,
but I begged her for a guitar, and she scraped
up the fifteen bucks and got me this thing, and
I learned how to play on it. But it was unplayable.
Now I look back on the strings were real high
off the neck and my fingers would literally bleed. I'd
(08:24):
be trying so hard until I went over to her
friend's house and he had a Gibson and I pick
it up and I went, oh my god, this isn't
hard at all. It's easy. I've been struggling, you know,
But my first guitar. It taught me how to, you know,
play hard. And I was just hooked as soon as
I got the guitar, and nothing else mattered. It was
all about the guitar.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
Do you remember the first solo that you learned Johnny
be Good?
Speaker 1 (08:49):
I learned it off the radio. I didn't have a teacher,
I never took guitar lessons, but I heard that on
the radio, and somehow I managed. I guess I had
an affinity for the and I just figured it out
on the guitar. And I just love Chuck Berry and
that song. I connected with it, you know. I felt like,
you know, a poor boy trying to dream about making
it someday. And I just identified with the way Chuck plays.
(09:10):
And I still get chills from out here and play.
There's something about him and the way he plays guitar,
the double stop thing that I tried to emulate.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Did you ever perfect the duck walk?
Speaker 1 (09:21):
No, I'm still working on that. Nobody can quite do
it like him. I've seen people try, but Chuck had
the way. Yeah. He was quite a performer, amazing person.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Yeah, a little bit of mojo, wouldn't you say?
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Yeah, Yeah, he has some mojo and his songwriting, you know,
his character, his originality, you know, he created that thing.
There's so many of us have you know, borrowed from
over the years, and he's still my top three guitar
players of all time.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
You mind listing the other two?
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Well, there's more than three really, but took of course
Jimi Hendrix because he was just ridiculously out of control,
crazy good. I liked Mike Bloomfield a lot in the
early days. I had the Paul Butterfield records, and I
had that Harmony guitar and record, and I would slow
the record down, you know, to sixteen, so I could
(10:16):
hear what the guitar was doing. And that's how I
learned that he was bending the notes. You know, I
didn't know you could bend the notes on the guitar
and so, you know, but there's you know, Keith Richards,
George Harrison, Roger McGlenn, there's so many. That era was
just incredible for guitar players. You know. It's not like
that anymore. But I'm happy I was there to be
inspired by all that stuff when I was learning.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
And you completely self taught though.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Well. Yeah, when I was a kid in school, my
parents forced me to take accordion lessons for a couple
of months, and I learned the basics of scales and
chords and things on that a little bit. But when
I got the guitar, I just taught myself off my ear.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
You know, what was the first concert that you ever
went to?
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Oh, the first concert would have been to Beach Boys
at the Jacksonville Coliseum. I think the bill was it
was one of those Dick Clark things. I think they
had a bunch of artists on, like Del Shannon and
Sam the Sham and the Payohs and different bands, and
then the Beach Boys came on as the headliner at
(11:23):
the end, and they just completely blew me away. They
sam it just like their records, you know, And I
loved that that dream, that a California dream of hope
and happiness living in you know, Jacksonville. That sounds pretty
good to me, I'm sure.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
So tell me about what pawn shops mean to you
when it comes to the discovery of guitars, which mean
the world to you.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Yeah, pawn shops You're a gold mine, you know, especially
in the early days when I couldn't afford much, you
could get a good deal in a pawnshop. You know.
I got my first Firebird Gibson in a pawn shop
for I think one hundred and twenty bucks and it
was just ironic. Recently on the Pleetwood Mac tour when
I was out with them, we were in Philadelphia and
(12:11):
I went by a pawn shop and I found a
white Firebird and that's become my main guitar, like touring
guitar now. So I'm back to the Firebirds again. But
you know, it's hard to find deals now because the
word is out that, you know, these instruments are valuable.
But I used to always go on days off with
the Heartbreakers, Me and maybe you know, Scott Thurston or
(12:34):
Rohn and Blair. We go out and find a pawn
shop and try to dig up an old gym, you know,
occasionally you get something really cool. Most of my guitars
are old, vintage stuff and nowadays, though, I was lucky
to find that white Firebird because nowadays it's hard to
find deals.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
Is there anything in particular you're on the lookout for?
Speaker 1 (12:54):
You know, my Brodie keeps asking, sending me stuff. Do
you want this? Do you want this? I've already got
one of those I would like to get. I might
want to get an epiphone coronet. I think it's called
Real light Del Shannon had one, Real Lightweight and they
sound pretty good. Steve Marriott played one and I think
(13:14):
in the Small Faces. But I'm not on a hunt.
I've got too many. I need to get him away.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
You know, what did the loss of Dwayne Eddie mean
to you as a guitarist.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Well, Dwayne was a huge influence. I mean he was
one of the first, if not the first, instrumental guitar player,
the rebel rouser and because they're young and moving and
grooving all those great instrumentals that were on the radio
when I was learning, and I learned those songs off
the radio too. You know, anytime an artist of that
stature leaves us, it's always a loss. You know, but
(13:50):
I really liked his guitar in his tone. You know,
he had that gretched tone, deep throaty, y, broad to
his tone, and he was an intervat you know, rebel Rouser.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
You knew it was him when you heard him, right, Yeah,
he was.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
A Yeah, he was an icon, and he was ahead
of the curve. You know, there weren't that many guitar
instrumentals out at that time, maybe Samto and Johnny and
a few others, but his was a very you know,
recognizable style and tone, and I like to try to
go for that sound sometimes. You know.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
What I thought was interesting. I was talking to Steve
Howe from Yes on the podcast and even you know,
some of the great British prog rock guitarists looked up
to Dwayne Eddie in a big way. He impacted them
as well.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
The twang's the thing. Have twang will travel, you know, Yeah,
and just a big He made the guitar sound so
big and full, and his songs are really cool, cool
riffs and simple, you know, not like showy, but melodic
and tough sound. And I try to play that way too,
(15:03):
So I.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
Was hoping we could go back to I'm just going
to pick three of my favorites, which really is difficult
for me because I've got another three hundred favorites from
your work with Tom and the Heartbreakers. But can you
take us back into what you recall the creation, either
solo wise or session wise of well, first American Girl
(15:26):
would be the one I wanted to ask about.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Yeah, I remember cutting American Girl. It was on the
fourth of July and we were at the Shelter we
called it the Brown Room, the Shelter Studios, which had
compensated the API console from tulsaon and put it in
the office there on Hollywood Boulevard, and that's where we
did our first two records. And Tom was beginning to
(15:50):
blossom as a writer, and he brought in Breakdown and
Wild One Forever, and then he brought in an American
Girl one day and it was like it was a
no brainer. This is a great song, you know. And
he had the Bo Diddley chords and I wanted to
put a twelve string on it, but I couldn't have
I didn't have one. We couldn't afford a twelve string
at the time. I had a broadcaster, which is still
(16:10):
my main guitar. So I was trying to get a
twelve string sound with the drone octaves. Danga dang dan
dang dang. That's octaves on a sixth string, trying to
sound like a twelve string. And so that was the
genesis of that sound. And between Tom's guitar and that
high droning and the voicings of my chords going up
(16:32):
against his chords down low, that became the Heartbreaker's guitar
sound basically. And so when I hear that song now
I can hear the formation of the band. That was
where we found our thing, you know. And at the
end of the song, A funny story there's I was
just I make a lot of stuff up on the track.
I don't work it out too much. At the end,
I just started doing those triples because I got bored
(16:56):
or didn't know what to do. And I thought it
was goofy, you know, and Tom goes, oh, you gotta
double that. I said, no, it sounds too much like
something else, you know. No, he said, that's really good.
Double it. And now it's like this on the fade,
that's that signature guitar partner goes out. So he was
right about.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
That and that's where you kind of it probably came
into form as your own process of improvising through sessions
and sort of the you know, continuous creation of something
till you get it right. Is that correct?
Speaker 1 (17:27):
It is correct. I rarely worked things out. I like
to go off the cuff and try to grab things
out of the air while you're playing the song and
try to catch a little magic. That's it's spontaneous. That's
what I try to do, and that's what that song
was about. And just to go back, I don't want
to get through technical But you talked about Duane Eddie.
There's also Chad Atkins who was a big influence on me,
(17:47):
and it was because I had been teaching myself Chad
Atkins on that song American Girl at the end, that's
a fingerpicking thing. Didn't literally have to use your you know,
a couple of fingers to get that. And I got
that from Chedd Atkins, that technique, so I owe that
to him too. But yeah, I like to just go
off the cuff. Breakdown was an off the cuff. That
opening riff was something that I did on the track mindlessly,
(18:11):
stream of consciousness. At the end of the track, I
played that once or twice as I as it was
getting to the end of a long jam, and then
they called me up and said, you know that lucky
play at the end should be at the beginning of
the song. It'll be like a catch for the song
in a hook. So I went back down and learned
it and played it on the front of the song,
so that you know. I like to grab things out
of the air that are unexpected, because I think the
(18:34):
listeners can consense that you're discovering it when they are.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
It's beautiful. Tell me about You Got Lucky. What you
remember about that whole process and the session and solos
and the creation of it.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
You Got Lucky was written on a synthesizer. The chords,
that whole thing I had done with three fingers. I'm
not much on the keyboards, but I had a made
a drum loop which I was into at the time,
and I had that keyboard line and the chords and
we got I didn't have the sort of with a
(19:12):
Clint Eastwood movie Italian Western kind of solo, Eam Marconi
thing which is in the middle. That was Tom's idea,
say why don't you go play something like a James
bond thing on the middle. So I had a strate
to just come into Mayl and I went out down, down, down, down,
So that was I came up with the line. Actually,
that line was on the keyboard line at the beginning
(19:33):
of the song, so I just copied that on the
guitar and did it with the vibrato n that so
that Tom suggested that I do that there, and I
just think he wrote a great lyric to that. So
I was so happy every time I would give him
piece of music, if he was inspired to write words,
it was always great, you know. I was lucky that way.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
And then tell me about the Waiting and the creation
of the Waiting, and in particular, is it true you've
all also played bass on the Waiting?
Speaker 1 (20:02):
I did. Yeah, I played bass, no difference to Ron,
who's an incredibly a lot better bass player than I am.
But on the songs of mine that if I had
a demo, I would put a rough bass on it
just to find how it should go, and then sometimes
we would end up I'd have to play it because
that was the right vibe for the song. On the Waiting,
(20:23):
for some reason, Ron wasn't there that day or something,
so I ended up playing the bass. And what's interesting
about that song, which I love, one of my favorite
songs of his, it's very birdsy. At the end on
the bass, the guitar wasn't I hadn't done my guitar
part yet. On the end at the bass where it
breaks down, the bass goes do do Do Do Do
(20:44):
Do Do doo. That was a bass line, and so
when I went to do the guitar, I found that
once again the high octaves to sound my guitarl say
gang Gang Gang. So that came from the bass part.
So that was also just a stream of conscious this
moment where that line came in when I was doing
the base. But if you're if you're clever, and you
(21:06):
listen to what you're doing, you can grab little things
that you didn't expect that happen, little pieces of magic.
And if you can catch them and and you know,
mind them, I think that makes for good music.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
We'll be right back with more of the Taking a
Walk Podcast. Welcome back to the Taking a Walk Podcast.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
Let's talk about the magic you created on Vagabonds, Virgins
and Misfits. I just absolutely love this, uh cover to cover,
as we would say, you've got some great folks that
are helping you out here, Lucinda Williams and Chris Stapleton,
Graham Nash of course, and Benmont talk about how this
(21:55):
project came together.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Well, it was gonna it's a Dirty Knobs album, and
I started writing songs for the sessions, and we came in.
I like to cut live with the Dirty Knobs, much
as the Heartbreakers were doing near the end of their
career and the very beginning of our career. We always
played live in the studio, and The Dirty Knobs is
very much spontaneous solos on the fly, you know. I
(22:19):
tried to get it on tape before they know it
too well, so it kind of sounds a little rough
and rowdy. But so I was writing some songs for
the album and we started recording with our producer, Georgia Coolias.
We recorded about twenty five songs or more, and then
I was reassessing all the songs, trying to narrow it
(22:40):
down to what an album might be. And my wife
actually suggested, you should go back to your tape blocker,
because I've got closets full of two inch tape of
demos I did back twenty years ago, and I didn't
want to do that, because I don't like to go back.
I like to keep moving forward. But she said, no,
you might have overlooked something. So I went in there
started listening to those things, and I found four or
(23:01):
five things that ended up on this record because I
thought the songs were good and they fit into what
I was trying to do. And a few of them
we actually used those tapes and built up from them
because they had the vibe. And so half the record
is older songs, and half the record is number songs
and the other records laying on the floor for the
next record.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Well, let's talk about some of the cuts. First of all,
the greatest that is the greatest one of those that
you took off the shelf, and.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
That's a new under It was one of the first
songs I wrote for the album, and I was we
had come off a great tour and I wanted to
write a song that was a thank you to the crowd,
you know that, And so that song is, you know,
you are the greatest of the audience, you know. I
just wanted to give back how much appreciation we have
for them being there, And so that song kind of
(23:49):
built out of that, you know, And it just became
this drone beatlesy harmony kind of I don't know what
you'd call it, kind of psychedelic in a way, but
it's a gift back to the audience.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
I love it. And tell me about Angel of Mercy.
The creation of that.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Angela Mercy is an old song that was not in
the tape blocker. I had tried it on the first
two albums to cut it because I liked this song
and it goes back quite away the Dirty nam She
when we were playing bars when we first got started
around LA we played that song live. So we tried
it again for the third album and it didn't really
(24:28):
measure up, and so we basically had finished the record
and Georgia Trulius came in. He said, you know, I've
been listening to that song. You guys should cut it again.
Let's make it sound like a proper record, you know.
So I said, okay, And so at that point Steve
Ronnie came in because I needed a drummer, and he
played drums on that one song and it made the record.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
We talked about Dare to Dream, which is the single
with Graham Nash, which is just such a you know,
fun uplifting, optimistic song. And I want to talk about
hands or tied and and that, Yeah, that guitar, what
guitar are you playing on that? That produces such a
(25:11):
unique sound there.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
You know, I'm trying to remember. I know it's a
it's a It's got it by broad up Arm. I
think it was a gretch cranked up through a nap
because I know it's got like a Neil youngish By
brought out arm vibe on it. I think it was
a gritch clipper that I have, same guitar I used
and I won't back down. And that was an old
(25:35):
song that I dug up. And that's one of my
favorite songs. It's a very emotional song and it's it's
a little dark, but it's one it's you know, it's
someone's in trouble, the girl or whoever is having a
really hard time and you want to help her, you know,
and it's like whatever it is. It could be drugs,
it could be illness, whatever it is, and you know,
(25:56):
I want to help you. My hands are tied, you know,
I hope hope works out, you know kind of thing. So,
and it's also I like that song. It's got a
time signature change in it. It goes which I heard
I rarely do. I usually write in four four or
three four. This one has a five four section at
the top and at the end. And another thing I
like about that song is my wife is so shy,
(26:20):
you know, and I've always asked her over the years,
why don't you come in and sing on something. I'll
make you sound good, don't worry, you know, And she
never wanted to. And then one day on this record,
she came in, I'd like to sing on this record.
So on that song she just comes in, ah, and
we later her to make this great bed and it
really gives a song a spiritual quality. So I'm was
(26:40):
proud of her for doing that.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
That's great.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
That the guitar is is emotional and sweet, and the
words are you know, spiritual too.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
You know, almost evokes sort of that town without pity
sort of sound, you know a little bit.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
I also think that I didn't notice this till recently,
that the guitar, which was a stream of consciousness line,
it's kind of reminiscent of breakdown a little bit, you know.
And I think it's that same guy, whoever that guy
in me is that placed in that mode. It has
a little bit of that element in it, and then
(27:22):
of course at the end it goes into the old
Jimmy Hendrix kind of swirly thing. Yeah, thank you for
mentioning that song. I like that one quite a bit.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
Oh, I love it. And then you have Hell or
High Water where that force of nature Lucinda Williams emerges
in that song. What a brilliant A brilliant song, brilliant collaboration.
Talk about how you collaborated with her.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Yeah, that's a new song that I wrote for the album,
and I'm very proud of that one because of it's
a lyrical workout. You know, it's a story, there's a character,
and there's a little movie and there's a lot of
wordplay in it, which I'm starting to really enjoy doing.
And so we cut it live and I sang it
most my vocal is live. And then on reflection, I thought,
(28:16):
you know, there's this character in the song, this girl
that this guy meets up with and goes into this
shadowy world for a moment, and I thought, wouldn't it
be great if we had a female voice in there
to come in and be that character? And I thought
of Lucinda once again. She had done my show and
I said, would you maybe consider singing on the song?
(28:37):
And she was real shy about it, but she came
in and she added such a depth of soul to it.
You know, God bless her. She's so good and she
really makes the song for me.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
Yeah, it's so memorable, My god. Can you talk about
the song? So alive and in particular just the that grinding,
those sounds that you get out of the guitars there,
what is that?
Speaker 1 (29:04):
It's live? It's uh. I think it's tuned down to D.
The low string is tuned down for a deep growl,
and it's just a burst of adrenaline. You know. It's
just like I feel so alive every time I see you.
You know, it's kind of almost corny, but the music
I think gets it some depth and it's just a
it's just a you know, dirty Noms at their best
(29:25):
and the solos live on the floor, you know, mistakes
and all, but it's just I just see it as
a burst of adrenaline. And we got Steve Fardy just singing,
oh oh oh there. It's hilarious.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
I love it. Don't wait up with Chris Stapleton and
benmont Tench. That is another stellar collaboration. And tell me
how that came together.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
That was an older song that we had played in
the bars before and I had a I discovered a
two inch tape analog version of it that was really
really good, and I tied you it up a little bit,
and Chris Stapleton was over to write one day or something,
and I begged him to sing on it, which he did.
(30:14):
He sang great. And Ben Mott came over one day
and we said, I have a Steinway in my living room.
He barely used it. We set up the MIC's in
there for him and he did one take of Jerry
Lewis on it. It's tremendous and it's a funny song,
you know. It's the words are kind of you know,
I Am the Walrus, a little bit like nonsense of
(30:34):
COVID and a weird way that kind of make sense,
and it's just kind of got a sense of humor
in it. But it's a real burst of adrenaline. You know.
The guys are really going for especially our bass player
Crawdaddy Lance Morrison. He just altered the album. He's just
pumping it. He's so good.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
Yeah, talk about Lance Morrison and how you love playing
with these guys in the Dirty Knobs.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
Our guitar is a guy named Chris Holt. We call
him Sidewinder. He's from Texas too, and he's all over
this new record. He is a real breath of fresh air.
He's a great singer. He can play piano. A lot
of the piano you hear is him and the guitar.
He's just incredible. And his voice sounds real good with
(31:17):
mine because I need a lot of help, but he
makes me sound better. And like, there's another song on
the album called Shake These Blues, which is kind of
a rave hut, and we cut the track live and
I said to Chris, I said, when we get to
to your solo, just make something up, you know. He's like,
and he did. He was right on the money. He
nailed it, you know. And he's like that I could
(31:38):
just look at him, I could do this and you go,
all right, you'll do it better than I thought he would.
So he's Chris Holt is a real find. And so
I'm lucky to have those guys. And now Steve Feroni
on the drums is quite a band.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
I would say so speaking a sense of humor too,
my old friends. That one made me smile.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Good at this job. Well, you know, that's a I
wasn't going to put it on the record because I
thought it was a little, you know, in joke, but
Georgia Cruleier said no, it woul sound great at the end,
you know, just a little breath of fresh air at
the end, and little humor is good. And that's obviously
just me discovering how to play with words, you know.
I got this idea that there's all these alcoholic drinks
(32:22):
that could be people, you know, because they have names
like Don perry On or Captain Morgan. So I figured
I'll just make the drinks the characters in the song,
you know, but say goodbye to them because you can't
get sucked into that world, you know. So it's a
tongue in cheeks song, but it is fun and Chris
Stapleton actually sings harmony on it too, which is good.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
And tell me about Innocent Man. Since we've covered I
think everything other than a mand the Lynn, tell me
about Innocent Man as well.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
It's got that droney kind of I don't know what
to compare it to. It's kind of Appalachian or Irish Alma.
But it's got that riff in it, and it's got
another story song which I had these characters, and it's
also an old song that I used to play back
in the bars and that I pulled out and refined
it a bit. But I like it because it's like
(33:13):
a movie, you know, you could. There's a lot of
descriptive characters throughout the song, and it's partly autobiographical. There's
a version there where it talks about the attack training
dogs coming on the bus and snipping around for drugs,
which actually happened to the Heartbreakers. Once it's going into Canada.
We had stopped and put all our pot and stuff
and a hotel room on the American side. We'll pick
(33:35):
it up after we come back, you know. So we're
going across the border at four in the morning, and
they stopped the bus and the German shepherd came on
the bus and went straight for our tour manager's coat
and he had a little half of a joint that he
forgot about. So they drug us in, you know, in
the freezing cold, and made a strip search and all
that shit. So that made its way into the song.
So there's a little bit of that now. The title.
(33:57):
When I first wrote it, I was calling it immigrant man,
you know. And then George Coulius one day he goes,
you know, that's that's a cool idea, but you might
get a little you know, political whatever from that, And
I said, yeah, maybe, So he said, what if you
call it innocent man? He said, you know what, that's better.
It's got a wider palette. So I gave him credit
(34:19):
for co writing a song.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
Tell me what you have learned from being around two
of the greats besides Tom obviously Don Henley and Bob Dylan.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Well, how lucky am I? You know, my life is
like that. You know, things have been throughout my life
just been charmed. Things have dropped in my lap, you know.
And the thing with Don Henley boys this summer was
just something that was a chain of events that Jimmy
I have Ben kind of spearheaded that track because Tom
didn't hear what to do with it at that time.
(34:59):
He later said to me, Tom said to me, you know,
I shouldn't have let that one get away. Might have
been in my presence of mind, I would have kept
that one, but it ended up. But with Don and
he did an amazing, amazing job, and I'm really proud
of that song. And Don is just you know, he's
one of the greats, you know, and he's always been
really kind to me and very generous with the songs
(35:21):
that we've done. And of course Bob Dylan showed up
in our lives. We did a world tour with him
with the Heartbreakers, which was very inspirational and eye opening
and just being around someone who's that special and deep.
I hope some of it rubbed off, but you know,
(35:44):
he was just so full of wisdom. He said to
me once, when you're writing a song, don't just write
three verses in a chorus, you know, write twenty verses,
you know, because you know, while you're in that place
you're you know, number fourteen fifteen might be great that
you would never have gotten to them. So you know,
channel and work for better lyrics, you know, And so
(36:06):
I try to emulate that. I've learned a lot from
him just watching them.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
So tell me how much you're looking forward to being
out on the road.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
Oh, I can't wait the band. You got all these
new songs to learn, you know, we have a whole
new set. We'll have to let some of the old
songs go by the wayside for a while and work
in all the I'm going to play most of the
songs off the new record, and we've got a great
opening act as girl. Shannon McNally is going to open
the tour for us, and the band is ready to go.
(36:35):
You know, I missed the crowds, and I missed the whole.
I like being on the road, you know, and I
like playing for people. And we've got to the stage
where we can play theaters now. You know, we're not
in the biker bars. Not there's anything wrong with biker bars,
but I like the theaters better because it sounds better
and they're a little bigger, and so we've worked up
(36:56):
to that stage. I mean they're small theaters, some of
them are medium size. But that'll make it a lot
more fun, you know. We'll have better venues and Steve
Feroni on the drums on this tour. He'll be a
lot of fun to play with, and the crowd loves him,
and we get to play all these new songs. I'm
just jazzed, you know. It's that's what I do. I
write songs and go play them, you know.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
Will you be writing on the road, continuously move them forward.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
I write all the time. I have found typically on
the road I'm so drained from the tour the gigs
that I don't write that much. I tend to write
more when I'm at home and I have you know,
free time. But every now and then I might get
a sketch of an idea and I'll put it down.
But mostly I'm focused on the gigs when I'm traveling.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
So as someone who is continuously learning in your craft,
in closing, what haven't you learned that you.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
Want to learn? Well, I want to learn to be
a better singer, a better writer, and a better guitar player.
And you can always get better as the beauty of
the guitar and music in general. You know, the more
you learn, the more there is to learn. I just
want to get better mostly though the guitar is kind
of I kind of just do that instinctively. I don't
(38:16):
have to work at it too hard. It just comes
to me. But the singing, I'm working on finding my
own voice and writing my own characters and putting songs
together that you know, hopefully will inspire people. You know,
I know I can get better at that so I'm
going to keep struggling with that to get as good
as I can.
Speaker 3 (38:36):
I am so grateful that we got to spend this
time together. Mike Campbell, Vagabonds, Virgins and Misfits. Go check
it out. It is an amazing record, and Mike, thank
you for the time, but thank you for all the
great music you continue to give us.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Well. You're very welcome, and thank you bus for taking
the time from me today.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Taking a
Walk podcast. Share this and other episodes with your friends
and follow us so you never miss an episode. Taking
a Walk is available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
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