Heauxing Is Data w/ Griff Stark-Ennis

Actor and podcast host, Griff Stark-Ennis, brings an interesting experience on a dating app as his Messy Story for the day. Some underlying toxic masculinity and racism from a potential hookup prompts a deep discussion on what it means to be black and queer. 

Find Griff on IG at: https://www.instagram.com/griffstarkennis

Follow Brandon on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/brandonkylegoodman 
Join the C'Heauxmunity at https://brandonkylegoodman.substack.com/ 
Submit your own messy story or question at [e-mail] or call ‪[phone]

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Does not really exist anymore, because I'm like, if I
want to be in that space, I will make the
time to be there. And if it's not like a fuck,
yes I want to go to do, then I'm like,
I love my own company. I'm a good time money,
I order real good food.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
I have really good taste in TV shows.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
You know what we do here destroy shame around sex
by talking about sex.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
Now, let me tell you something messy.

Speaker 1 (00:30):
This might actually not have anything to do with sex,
but it is messy to me, and I do want
to discuss it, and I would like for y'all to
discuss it among your people. And if you are a
restaurant tour, I would really like you to go to
the other restaurant tours and talk about this. As you
can tell, I'm about to talk about restaurants, which is
a restaurant with only one bathroom should be a crime.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
That shit should be how.

Speaker 1 (00:56):
Y'all got Ooh, I'm gonna get how y'all got forty
motherfuckers in this fucking place and only one bathroom? I
was in I remember I was in San Francisco not
too long ago, and the person I was with was
telling me, oh, you know the buildings are old, so
the restaurants only have one bathroom. Baby, there were people
upon people upon people upon people in this Mexican restaurant.

Speaker 2 (01:20):
By the way, we.

Speaker 1 (01:21):
Eat Mexican people eating beans, baby, people eating beans and cheese.
And I don't trust everybody to know or respect the
fact that they're lactose intolerant.

Speaker 2 (01:30):
You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (01:31):
And you only got one motherfucking bathroom. All it takes
is for all it takes. All it takes is for
one motherfucker who's lactose intolerant. One motherfucker who has a
bean allergy. I am that motherfucker. I'm allergic to beans.
All it takes is one and that bathroom is wrapped
for the night.

Speaker 2 (01:52):
Night.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
I am so confused. You should not be allowed to
open a restaurant with one bathroom. If you're a cafe,
a fine, because we in and out Starbucks. If Starbucks
have one bathroom, I'm okay with that. There are Starbucks
that got two, three, four bathrooms. So why can't the
little French restaurant, the Mexican restaurant, the Caribbean restaurant, the
American resert.

Speaker 2 (02:13):
Why can't y'all restaurant tours.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
When when you are mapping out, when you got the
blueprint the architecture, and y'all are gone the architect and
y'all are going through. What is you know what's gonna be?
The kitchen's gonna be over here and hope here. It's
gonna be like the bar extra and it's gonna be
the outside patio. Why do y'all only are y'all saving.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
Money with the one bathroom?

Speaker 1 (02:32):
What's going on? Is it too much water? Is the
water the water built too high? If you have multiple bathrooms,
you want too many people flushing? Are you conserving water?
Is it for the environment? Why is there one bathroom?
And the other piece that I want to say about
this for those of you who got one bathroom and
for those of you who got multiple bathroom, if y'all.

Speaker 2 (02:50):
Don't put the vacant and occupied.

Speaker 1 (02:52):
Little sign on the thing, because here I am in
the bathroom line. The music is blasting, people are talking,
you know, plate to being broken, and I'm knocking on
the door, but I can't hear the person go somebody's
in here because it's too loud. You know what would
be helpful to see that vacant doorknob sign or that
occupied sign here. I am just like you know, crunching

(03:14):
down on these these these doorknobs, giving somebody inside a
heart attack because who knows what they're doing there, And
that's their business, you know what I'm saying, that's their business.
Their pants might be all the way down, they might be,
they might be, you know, exerc and by exercising, I
mean an exorcism of that, you know, that turd because
they might have had them beans and they need that
occupied sign. That's all I want to say. That's all

(03:36):
I wanna say. Restaurant tours, get your shit together. It
should be illegal for you to have one bathroom. And
I know I know some of y'all in your car
or wherever you are listening to this on the subway,
in your house listening to this being like, what are
we talking about?

Speaker 2 (03:48):
Or or you understand what I'm talking about?

Speaker 1 (03:53):
Okay, And this is why, and this is why you
should look at home by the way walking into the show,
this is telling me something messy. My name, I'm your host, FRIANDICR.

Speaker 2 (04:10):
Good Man.

Speaker 1 (04:10):
Some people call me a messy mom. Other people call
me a restaurant activist. Okay, a bathroom. A bathroom avist.
That's yeah, that yes, a bathroom avest. There we go, period.

Speaker 2 (04:22):
I'm the new Gordon Ramsey, motherfucker.

Speaker 1 (04:23):
I'm coming through to fix your fucking restaurants and add
more bathrooms.

Speaker 2 (04:26):
Actually, that might be a good show we should do.

Speaker 1 (04:28):
They should do a reboot of whatever that show is
that he was doing when he was going around fix
people's restaurants. But it'll be me, messy mom, and I'm
just there to make.

Speaker 2 (04:37):
Sure y'all got enough bathrooms.

Speaker 1 (04:39):
I don't give a fuck if the food is good,
I just want to I'm gonna be like, Okay, if
y'all are serving that much cheese in this restaurant, y'all
have to have at least four bathrooms.

Speaker 2 (04:46):
Period. Okay, Okay, that's that's all I say. Ayway smoking
to the show. What's next? Baby? You know what that means?
It is time for a guest.

Speaker 1 (04:55):
Now, while they get situated, we'll get our messy key
Key started with a how matter of fest stow repeat
after me aloud or in your head. Grant me the
serenity to unpack my shame, the courage to heal, the
wisdom to that sex is not just about penetration, the
audacity to advocate for my pleasure and boundaries, the strength
to not call my ex that fuck boy, fuck girl,

(05:17):
or fuck bay, for it is better to masturbate by
myself in peace than to let someone play in my
motherfucking face. Let the community say, oh helujah, I am
so excited to have Griff Stark ns on the show.
Griff is an actor, host, and model based in West.

Speaker 2 (05:36):
Hollywood, California. Griff currently leads the queer driven.

Speaker 1 (05:40):
Short film This Is for You, and will be making
his comedic debut in gasper Cello's upcoming success Starts Here.
Griff has been the face of several global commercial campaigns,
most notably for Apple, and has shot fashion campaigns that
have been featured in outlets including Vogue and GQ. He
is a proud alum of Boston College as well as

(06:02):
the Boston Consulting Group. You can find Griff pretending to
do work on his family's farm in the Thousand Islands
or dashing around Los Angeles in his beloved crocs. Y'all
please help me. Welcome Griff, Hey, Grif, Hello, Hello?

Speaker 3 (06:19):
Are you?

Speaker 2 (06:20):
I'm good? How are you? You know what today's we record?

Speaker 1 (06:23):
Whenever anyone asks me that, I like to be as
honest as possible. I already told you off, Mike, but
I'm a little low energy, so I'm gonna really lean
on you.

Speaker 2 (06:32):
Okay, you're gonna.

Speaker 1 (06:32):
Host today's episode, perfect, I'd tell me something messy with
Griff starctis today.

Speaker 2 (06:38):
I will be the guests.

Speaker 1 (06:40):
Well, actually, before we get started, let me give you
our messy kiky mandates.

Speaker 2 (06:43):
Does that work? Yeah? Okay? Cool?

Speaker 1 (06:45):
So things get to be unprocessed. Any thoughts or opinions
shared have the right to evolve, shift, or change today
tomorrow or ten years som now. And if during the
kiki something feels too personal or unintentionally offends, we use
the safe word foosball, which gives a chance for us
to pause or address and pivot accordingly.

Speaker 2 (07:04):
Wow, I love the like laws of it all.

Speaker 1 (07:07):
Yes, we have a little it's the mandates, you know.
We like to keep a little framework, stay safe and
open hearted, and a safe work. Fo balls is safe
for It's like you're like, oh, foosball, Oh we will stop.

Speaker 2 (07:18):
I'm actually pretty good at foosball, t are you? I?

Speaker 1 (07:21):
When I started to show, I didn't know foosball's a
word that.

Speaker 2 (07:24):
I was like, oh, I don't know what that means,
and you're just screaming at all the streaming, So that's
gonna be the same word. Shall we start with the
loupe breaker? Yes, beautiful, Okay, So we're gonna play a game.

Speaker 1 (07:34):
Of smash or pass, smash your past like this, smash
your pass musk, which I have to say, musk, not
must must musk. Musk is just like it's it's the smell,
but it's not the sour smell. It's just like, oh,
that's your natural smell.

Speaker 2 (07:52):
Yeah, and sometimes it be natural, sometimes it be natural.
I I am gonna have to oh, man, there's a
for me.

Speaker 3 (07:59):
There's a fine intersection between it being like hot and
sexy and just like natural, I'm smelling you at your
primal self. And then especially in workout classes, it is it's.

Speaker 2 (08:12):
Just a little work. I just want to work out
on the fuck that's yeah. Yeah, yeah, So I'm gonna
say I'll say smash yep or what's it like, a
smash pass, a smass, A.

Speaker 3 (08:23):
Smass where it's like, reminds me of the words you
mentioned on Katya's episode Magma.

Speaker 1 (08:31):
Magma Geez, I'm a I'm a I'm also a smass
because it is like a it is a fine line
where like the musk and turn musty. So so to me,
it's like if you were somebody who like doesn't like
to shower, and then you had all day not showering,

(08:53):
and then it's the evening that's gonna be must and
I don't want that. If you're regularly showers like you
usually like a shout in the morning, and then like
you whatever, and now it's like five o'clock, that's probably
gonna be a little muskier.

Speaker 2 (09:05):
That's nice. Also depending on what your job is.

Speaker 3 (09:07):
Because totally perhaps you're setting off, but you're probably gonna
be muskier and I'm into that.

Speaker 2 (09:13):
Or if you just worked out. Also, if I just
worked out, yeah, I'm cool with that. That's a good point.

Speaker 3 (09:18):
Like if I'm bringing the same level of yes, then
that it makes sense right absolutely. Post Barr's boot Camp,
Yeah yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:26):
The dance floor, like if we've been dancing and sweating,
oh my god, I will smell your pits. You like
to dance, I do, Like I love to be on
the dance floor. I love that, and I love to make.

Speaker 2 (09:35):
Out on dance floor I love. I also on the
dance for WHOA, how did that go? It was great?

Speaker 1 (09:41):
I was lovely, it was wonderful. I actually was just
at a party, uh not too long ago. My friend
and I every return people were fucking on the name
Wow get it applausa everyone.

Speaker 2 (09:50):
I think, yes, I think, yes, that's my statement that
I think.

Speaker 3 (09:55):
Yes, I don't love like I'm a very like I
will be a slut, yeah, but I think at this
point in my life I need a little privacy. So
like the dance floor isn't necessarily even for making out
like my forte. It's just like the being looked at.

Speaker 1 (10:13):
I guess yeah, the voyeurism of it all may not
be fe feel good because when I want to be
looked at, I know how to be looked at.

Speaker 3 (10:20):
I mean, I talk about it, but I think for
that maybe I'll grow into it. But let's get me
behind closed doors and you'll see me at my best. Oh.

Speaker 1 (10:27):
I love that one on one is a vibe. Honestly,
I always say that, like I am able to be
my sluttiest in public when I feel most connected in private.
So like, if I like my connections, my private connections
are doing well and the emotional connection is there.

Speaker 2 (10:45):
That I'm really able to be the biggest slut in
a public space.

Speaker 1 (10:49):
If my like private emotional connections aren't well and that's
romantic platonic, they're like not, then like I my dick
is soft, I don't want.

Speaker 2 (10:57):
To do it. That's interesting because some of my and
who are the sluttiest in public have very stable personal
and like home romantic lives or sex lives. So that's
a really interesting that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (11:10):
Yeah, at the end of the day, we're all not
we're all, but a lot of us are much more
emotional than you want to say you are.

Speaker 2 (11:17):
Okay, smash your paths.

Speaker 3 (11:18):
Anal beads, Oh, I've never experienced them, like with someone
or myself.

Speaker 2 (11:26):
So what's the purpose of them?

Speaker 1 (11:28):
Well, an, I mean purpose wise, I mean I think
it's like another version of a butt plug, other version
of a dildo. But I feel like because they're like
they're beaded, it's a it's a different sensation.

Speaker 3 (11:40):
Because it like it like has like little pulses as
they're like yeah, I can see, I can see.

Speaker 1 (11:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:45):
They remind me.

Speaker 1 (11:48):
They remind me of those like click on bracelets that
I had as a kid. Those charts like the snap
bracelets kind of you know what.

Speaker 3 (11:57):
I'll send you a picture because it's it's clear in
my head, it's probably not clear for anyone listening, but
very similar beads. As a kid, that's a problematic.

Speaker 1 (12:07):
I'm like, oh, because I like you remember, like there's
like those bracelets that have like the big massive beads.

Speaker 2 (12:12):
Yeah. Ye, and they just like connected connect. So I'm
going to I'm just gonna I'll say, pass for it
now for now. It's not it forever. It's not forever. Yeah,
you know, I heard your mandates at the beginning, A
pass for now, show me, show me somebody, show Griffin
see how they work.

Speaker 1 (12:33):
Yeah, I I'm a pass on an anal bead. It's
not my favorite sensation. I'm fine with it, but there
are other sensations that I prefer more. It's not my favorite.
So it's a it's it's it's not it's not a
pass like I'll never but it's not like I'm like,
oh yeah, absolutely, that's a smash you.

Speaker 3 (12:51):
Had mentioned on an episode before that, like, and I
totally agree. And I don't know if it's changed then
you recorded that one. But if I'm prepped and ready
to be playing with my ass. Yeah for like a dildo,
anal beads, a plug, a plug. I need to like
start experimenting with more. Sure, I think that'll help me
kind of uh train myself a little bit better.

Speaker 2 (13:11):
I would rather, though, just have a dick around.

Speaker 3 (13:14):
So for me anal beads or dildos or anything that
is not human connected. It's like I'd probably be entertained
by it for a few minutes and then I'd be
like horny.

Speaker 2 (13:23):
For for the dick. For the dick.

Speaker 1 (13:25):
Yeah, I prefer toys with a partner because then I'm like,
play with me with the toys and then give me
the dick total vice versus or like, you know, we
can switch out.

Speaker 2 (13:32):
But if I've done all that clean out and I
just have my I have.

Speaker 1 (13:35):
A friend who loves his toys, yeah, like and like
can spend the whole night on the toys and be
happy and satisfied. And I've just never been that girl.
I'm like, if I just cleaned out my whole for
like an hour in that back, like, I need the
dick attech. I want I want the dick, I want
the picks, I want the booty I want the thighs.

Speaker 2 (13:55):
I want it all on me. It's called ROI return
on investment. Thank you, thank you. Oh and if you're
prepping for an hour.

Speaker 1 (14:02):
I'm this is so interesting because some people do take
it like twenty thirty minutes and others of us.

Speaker 2 (14:06):
Are like an hour.

Speaker 1 (14:07):
And I've talked two different people and I'm like, oh,
I'm not alone. There are some of us who really are.
Like I've pooped several times a day all day, got
the green juices, the fibers, yeah, all of it.

Speaker 2 (14:17):
And it's still it's just spilogy. It's just what it is.

Speaker 1 (14:21):
And I you know, and now I know, like I
now I have this thing where like I know when
it's when that's gonna happen, and I also know when
like yep, we're not we're not bottoming something. Yeah, you know,
like just like they feel that. Yeah, there's a power
in knowing your body like that. I will say I
completely agree.

Speaker 3 (14:37):
Like I think stepping into my queerness, which you know,
led me to stepping into queer sex, yeah because of
what you just said, Like to be able to take
a dick up your ass, Yeah, to engage in anal sex,
you just have to be a little bit more connected
with what you're feeling, like being able to do it
in general. And it just makes me feel very connected

(14:59):
to my body to say, and I think I think
I'm better for it.

Speaker 2 (15:02):
I think I am too.

Speaker 1 (15:03):
I wasn't expecting to like learning how to douche really
then like set off this whole thing about like what
is my body doing in general?

Speaker 2 (15:13):
And the way that I changed to.

Speaker 1 (15:15):
Talk think about taking care of my body has changed
completely and I'm just so aware of everything little absolutely,
I'm like, let's get that check total is that? You know,
I'm not like not afraid of the doctor.

Speaker 3 (15:26):
I spent quarantine because you know, I moved to Los
Angeles in twenty eighteen, had two full years without COVID experience.

Speaker 2 (15:33):
LAM so thankful for that.

Speaker 3 (15:35):
And then during quarantine, I was reflecting on a lot
of stuff and one of those things was my desire
to bottom more.

Speaker 1 (15:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:41):
I had been so for my whole life and I'm
still not a huge fan of it. Poop a verse.

Speaker 3 (15:45):
Yeah, And I was like, fuck this, I have I think,
what's going to be a long time to start getting
familiar and practice with the douching process. So I spent
my quarantine practicing how to douche. No one was coming
over because I was being a good little quarantine boy.
But I got familiar and I kind of got past
the at the time, the disgust of like working with

(16:06):
that area of my body and poop. And it has
opened up a completely different world.

Speaker 2 (16:12):
For sex for me opened, of course it has. It did. Yeah,
talk to me nicely to open up even more. But
very proud of that. I was, like, I was proud
of that. I watched drag Race.

Speaker 3 (16:23):
I watched season one through whatever current season. There was
all of it during quarantine.

Speaker 2 (16:27):
Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (16:27):
And I learned to do so that is the gayest,
the gayest quarantine ever drag Race douche.

Speaker 2 (16:34):
Yeah, I was. I was focused on accomplishments, and I accomplished.
I love that smash your past swallowing.

Speaker 3 (16:48):
Oh for me, it's a smash because I am not
engaging in oral sex unless I am very much vibing
with that person. I'm very particular of who I do
that with. Ye, So if I'm already doing that, then
I'm inclined to swallow love.

Speaker 2 (17:03):
It does that make sense? Like I'm not gonna give
head to just anyone? Tell me what are your criteria
for somebody who gets ahead from you?

Speaker 3 (17:12):
So it's just it's like an energy thing. Like I'm
a very kind of charged person and my energy is
fairly strong, and I love the kind of the dance
of gay sex and figuring out who's leading, who's following
ebbs and flows. So for me, it's like if you're
I mean, ay, if I really love someone, I just
want all of them. And yeah, that's such a great

(17:32):
representation of that. Sure, But even just kind of casually,
it's like, I'm not going to like honor you by
swallowing your seed if you don't have the masculine like
or energy that I want to ingest. And I'll say
energy because I've you know, femininity and masculinity obviously are
a part of all of us. Yeah, it's just like
I don't want that part of you in me if

(17:52):
I don't like buy into what you're giving.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
But you'll but you'll penetrate, you'll still like have penetrative sex, but.

Speaker 3 (18:01):
Just not oral sex or No, that's interesting, No, I
it kind of applies for both. But yeah, the swallowing
of it, I'm a little bit more particular with I
would be for bottoming, which I'm already particular about.

Speaker 1 (18:12):
Yeah. Yeah, so wait, I want to unpack this, please,
I need to unpack it. So if you like them,
you will, all right, let's say back up. If it's
just somebody you're attracted to, you're not sure if you
want to swallow their load, but you're attracted to them, yes, right,
so they can.

Speaker 2 (18:29):
You can penetrate. I can suck your dick, but I'm
just not taking your load.

Speaker 3 (18:32):
Yes, yeah, I will take your load, whether it's in
my mouth or my hole, if I actually like you. Yeah,
it's just like that transfer of energy for me means something,
especially when you're receiving it, Like I think, you know,
bottoming is just so much more intimate for me. Yeah,
it makes I think pretty obvious.

Speaker 2 (18:52):
And so if it's just not something I'm buying into,
I don't want it, what would make.

Speaker 1 (18:56):
But like, okay, what keeps you from buying in? So
because you're like, I'm attracted to you, You're here, we're
fucking we're penetrating, but I'm not bought in.

Speaker 2 (19:04):
So what is the thing that makes you buy in?

Speaker 1 (19:06):
You know?

Speaker 2 (19:07):
How like you like to dance?

Speaker 3 (19:08):
You just said, like when you're on the dance floor
and you're like kind of going up to people and
people are going up to you, and then you click
with someone and it just flows really nicely because that
person kind of knows they're comfortable with themselves. They might
not be like like the best, so you think you
can dance dancer, but they're confident and what they're giving
and it allows you to kind of just know your

(19:30):
position with them. It's just it's a confidence thing. It's
knowing what you're putting out that allows me, especially as
an actor and someone's a little more sensitive, to just
understand what my place is with you in this dance
of it all. So for me it is like, I
mean there's been femtops, there's been fembottoms, there's been mask tops,
mask bottoms, Like I just need you to kind of.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
Have that confidence.

Speaker 3 (19:53):
And for me, you are what you are and like
you know, we're all learning about who we are. Everything evolves,
but like when you're stepping into like my room, where
I'm going into your room, I just that that leading
with confidence really gets me.

Speaker 1 (20:07):
Is the leading with confidence at all? Like do you
like them to be a little more domb than you?
Is that whether which has nothing but feminine, the energy
is a little more dumb and.

Speaker 2 (20:17):
Sub is that for sure?

Speaker 3 (20:19):
Okay, It's like, especially if I'm bottoming or swallowing, it's
just I like, because I when I'm a top, I
think I'm very good in that role. Yeah, because I
am confident, I kind of know what I want. I
think I'm really empathetic. I can sense how they're doing
and I never hesitate to check in, and so I
know how good I can give it, and so if

(20:40):
I'm taking it, I want the person giving it to
be offering something at that kind of same level, you know,
And this, I think is like that.

Speaker 1 (20:46):
To me feels like the scripture of a verse, which
is if I know because as a verse doll. If
I know that I can top and you're not topping
the way that I know a top and do it,
then it does like make me a I just don't
believe the dancing.

Speaker 2 (21:05):
That's exactly. That's exactly, and the same stream of bottomy.

Speaker 1 (21:08):
Like, but if I'm if you're the bottom and I
just feel like there's not a confidence in that, then
it's like oh interesting, total. Yeah, It's like I've really
I've stopped having sex with everybody. Wait, totally no, I like, yes,
absolutely sorry with anybody, yes, because I obviously wasn't having everybody.

Speaker 2 (21:27):
But I haven't well well, oh, my twenties were different.

Speaker 1 (21:33):
I stopped having sex with just anybody because it used
to feel like sex was unconsciously but like a place
of validation in some ways. Oh yeah, and I no
longer sex is just not a reliable place for me
to get that validation, way to really learn how to
get that validation internally. So then when I realized that
for me, sex, even if I'm never going to see

(21:54):
you again, has to have some kind of emotional connection,
then it really kind of changed who I'm going after
because you could be as hot as I want you
to be here, as tall as everyone here knows if
they six three and above.

Speaker 2 (22:06):
Yeah, I'm trying to holler.

Speaker 1 (22:09):
If I holler and the connection just doesn't feel or
there's that, I'm like, oh, it's not going to be good.

Speaker 2 (22:15):
Totally totally.

Speaker 1 (22:16):
I'm just like, I'm not even trying to I'm not
even gonna pursue this any first.

Speaker 2 (22:20):
And that makes sense.

Speaker 3 (22:21):
I don't know what your like sexual journey has been
since coming out, or even if you didn't like for me,
It's like I delayed myself the indulgence of hooking up
with like with gay in gay sex yea, for so
long that like when I got to Los Angeles specifically,
I had to I just felt like a teenager again.

(22:41):
I had to just learn all of these things and
like make up for lost time almost. I feel like
a lot of people in La I live in we
host West Hollywood, so like that you can just sense it.
People are just so charged They're finally in this mecca
of queerness. Yeah, I needed to figure out baseline what
I like?

Speaker 2 (22:57):
Do I like topping? Do I like?

Speaker 3 (22:59):
Do I like? And I'm glad that I was kind
of a hoe when I got here because I was
able to figure out.

Speaker 2 (23:04):
How is data? Hoeing is That's great data, That's exactly it.
And I collected a lot of data, yeah, well collected
loads of data.

Speaker 3 (23:14):
But like, at a certain point you have enough data
to make informed decisions about yourself and what you're looking at.
And I see so many people not kind of get
to that checkpoint or get to that checkpoint, but be
so addicted to the collection of data. And for me,
I I was like, no, I'm good, I kind of
know what I like I'm open to, you know, new things,
but I think new things with a partner, and so

(23:36):
I stopped also finding validation with sex.

Speaker 2 (23:39):
Yeah, because I was you.

Speaker 1 (23:42):
Know, you can find it's la, you can find the
most beautiful, sexually charged people, and I did that, and
it's like at a certain point I had to graduate
into something else for me, and that next chapter was
legitimate intimacy. Yes, yeah, yes, because okay, wow, okay, let's
do this right now, We're about to I'm about to

(24:04):
do a price stuff. It's because like the like, there's
nothing wrong with finding validation in sex, like that's part
of it, and like you know, like, oh I feel
hot because they find me attracted whatever. Yes, but there
is I think a limit because if you're if you
don't actually engage with that and figure out how to
validate yourself inside of that, then you're always chasing. And
the I think the it makes sex for me so

(24:26):
unpleasurable to constantly be in a chase. Chase is cute,
like you know, like we're at a dance party. Oh
I kind of like can't like that's fine, but like
when I'm just chasing sex that to like feel good
about myself that eventually runs out and then it gets
a little icky as opposed to intimacy, which is like, oh,
I'm really actually more interested in the experience, and so

(24:49):
what is the experience I can have with this person
or these people at this environment? Like that is that's
going to say shate and satisfy me because I'm coming
into it not feeling like I'm missing something. I'm actually
coming into it bringing something. And maybe that's what we're
getting at is like the person that we're connecting with
whose load I'm willing to swallow is somebody who is

(25:11):
bringing something to the table, as opposed to somebody who's
like looking for me to forgive the pun fill something for.

Speaker 2 (25:18):
Ye yeah, you know, yeah it's a great pun, thank you. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:21):
So you know, there's a different there is a different
energy in seeking intimacy, experience and building something with someone
as opposed to looking for them to fix something.

Speaker 3 (25:33):
For sure, the intimacy is so much scarier too, Like terrify,
I have yet to find my first romantic partner, and
I feel so ready for that. I'm also like very
happy being patient and waiting for that right person. There's
so many benefits of being single and autonomous, especially in
our industry. Like, but I sensed that in me like

(25:54):
a year and a half ago that change. I was
just done collecting the data, like we said, and I
was looking for more intimate experiences. And that is scary
because it leads to things that we leads to heartbreak
for sure that we have known ourselves too, that we
have experienced by way of like pop stars and other
people that have experienced it. And I'm like, I'm just
ready to experience for myself and like understand.

Speaker 2 (26:18):
Just the depth of that.

Speaker 3 (26:19):
And it forced me across the last year to just
make sure that my behavior was better aligning with that.
I still love moments, and I do want to talk
about edging, but I still have moments where you know,
I get horny and I fall back into the chase
of it allah, which is just like normal, yeah and
wonderful and yes, like I think if you're aware of it,

(26:40):
it's fine.

Speaker 1 (26:41):
I think it's scary, not scary. But like where I
get concerned or alarm bells is when you're chasing and
you don't realize correct, Yeah, Like that's when it's like, oh,
then you start making choices that aren't necessarily beneficial for
you because you're trying to fill this thing that the
well is empty.

Speaker 3 (26:57):
Yeah, we host scary and again like I'm not standing
on a soapbox being like, oh I've figured it out.

Speaker 2 (27:02):
I'm now we're on ohaman here.

Speaker 3 (27:04):
Yeah, it's it does change your perspective on certain environments
that cities offer New York like other cities where there's
enough queer people to actually have kind of a culture, neighborhoods,
and it does color the environments different. And so you know,
I'm glad that I went through them, I had my fun.
I still frequent them once in a while because it's important,

(27:27):
but I know that other things exist outside of that,
and I now demand to be in those spaces.

Speaker 2 (27:34):
I demand to be in this.

Speaker 1 (27:36):
That's to me.

Speaker 3 (27:36):
That's me saying no, thank you, that's me saying I'm
not going to go to that. I know, I know
the step and repeat of what's going to happen when
I go to these gay bars.

Speaker 2 (27:44):
Yeah, it's empowering.

Speaker 1 (27:47):
It's empowering to demand where you want to be. And
I'm i in the same way. I you know, I
used to have the fomo and I no longer have fomo.
Fomo never like the Homo fomo does not, which I'm
with that a T shirt does not really exist anymore,
because I'm like, if I want to be in that space,
I will make the time to be there, and if
I don't, if it's if it's not like a fuck,

(28:08):
yes I want to go to do then I'm like,
I'm actually really happy to be because I love my
own company. I love I'm a good sign money, I
order real good food, I have really good taste in
TV shows I have. I'm always stocked with weed. Like
I'm a great date to myself. So I would like,
if you can't give me a better time than I

(28:28):
can give myself, that I don't actually need to be there. Yep,
absolutely honestly put that in the Bible. Girl.

Speaker 3 (28:33):
I think we're writing a new book, the whole Bible,
the Hoble.

Speaker 1 (28:41):
Maybe you won the game congratulations, Yes, yes, yes, you win.

Speaker 2 (28:46):
My unconditional love because I don't got no money here,
but listeners.

Speaker 1 (28:51):
If you have any messy games or prompts or stories,
you can email them to tell me something messy at
gmail dot com. Your submissions always remain anonymous, just so
you know. Speaking of which, let's go into MESSI mail. Okay,
we're gonna we're gonna read some listeners submissions and.

Speaker 2 (29:10):
Give advice or react or I don't know, we'll see it.

Speaker 1 (29:12):
Okay, so the first one says girl, girl, it does
say girl says girl. Here, I was fucking this guy
doing our thing. He stopped, pulled out all wide. I
He's like, what do I do with this? What my
fucking Nouva ring birth control contra contraption thing was on

(29:33):
his dick? He said, I guess we are playing ring toss.

Speaker 2 (29:37):
WHOA.

Speaker 1 (29:38):
I took it off his dick, set it on his
nightstand and continued onto our scheduled programming.

Speaker 2 (29:43):
Oh that's exciting. That's exciting.

Speaker 3 (29:45):
But if the hold on, like if the Neuva rings
removed during intercourse and you keep going, does that mean
that you're susceptible to being pregnant?

Speaker 2 (29:53):
Or is it like, you know, I don't know much
about NEUVERA rings. I forgive me listeners, but I don't
know anything about a newver ring. I can't answer this question.

Speaker 1 (30:03):
I mean, I'm just saying that they could they I mean,
by the by the looks of this, they were excited
to continue going. But that is a really good question
if the newver Ring is the birth control contraption thing
and that gets pulled out.

Speaker 3 (30:15):
My assumption is that the new ver Ring is releasing
chemicals like prep like prep. Yes, I don't take one.

Speaker 2 (30:21):
Pill, You're still still covered for a few days. Yeah.
So I love that. Yeah, I love that he was
he made a joke. I love that make a joke
during sex? Would that turned you on? If that happened,
it's like a whoopsie is it's kind of awkward? And
he of course corrects with a joke. Absolutely absolutely, Yeah,
because like sex, shit happens. Yep, literally literally, yeah, could happen.

(30:42):
But it's like, you know, when awkward things happen, I think, like,
we're not important, Like we're two people. It's hilarious.

Speaker 1 (30:50):
Let's make a joke, let's laugh and get back into it.
I would rather that than us try to ignore it
and try to stay sex. Yes, like I have like
what are we doing?

Speaker 3 (30:58):
You said we're not important, which made me think of
because I've hooked up with some creators of porn. It
is a different dance with them because they are so
used to the production of it that if if something
like that happened, which it has in my you know,
my own ways.

Speaker 2 (31:12):
I don't have a neuver ring in me yet. Yes,
it is.

Speaker 3 (31:17):
It's almost like interesting how they like move past that awkwardness.
It's just different than making a joke like as It's
just different. It's just like, it's okay, we're not being filmed.

Speaker 2 (31:28):
This is not like a job right now.

Speaker 3 (31:30):
This is you know, And I'll make the joke if
someone else isn't because I'm very funny obviously hilarious, but
you know, it's like that is incredibly attractive. I like
that it didn't like freak them out.

Speaker 2 (31:40):
It is.

Speaker 1 (31:42):
Husband Mary, I mean, or or whatever or dating long
term whatever it is. The never ring popped up for
a reason. Wow, that's hilarious. I'm going to get you
anal Bes maneuver ring. That's got to get that's your Christmas.

Speaker 2 (31:57):
I got you, baby.

Speaker 1 (31:58):
Okay, this what's I encourage my best friend slash roommate,
slash unrequited crush to hit on a man at the
club the other night.

Speaker 2 (32:09):
Oh, have you ever had a crush on somebody and
like sent them out to like flirt with someone? I
guess because it's.

Speaker 1 (32:14):
Like your friend and your roommate like have you had
a crush on a friend. I mean, the gays have
always had a crush on their friends. I always feel
like gay relations, gay friendships, to me, a lot of
times start with attraction, attract each other, and you're like
you poke it, like, oh I don't actually want that.

Speaker 3 (32:27):
Yeah, and you can literally even like I've hooked up
with a few people that are now very good friends
going to dates.

Speaker 2 (32:32):
Yeah. Yeah, it's just you know, it is who it is.

Speaker 3 (32:35):
And you know, I know a bunch of straights who
do that too, I guess, yeah, yeah, I the only
for me. It's like, I'm trying to be a lot
more strategic with the people that I like, because I've
mentioned earlier that I'm just I'm interested in dating. I'm
interested in finding and locking something down that's more intimate,
and I've recently realized that I need to be as
strategic with my romantic life as I am with my

(32:57):
like business in normal life. Sure, because it's just like
the Hollywood, it's just going to fall onto your lap
might happen, but I can have more control over it
than I want. Yeah, So hearing this story sometimes there's
a little strategy and being like I like this guy,
or this girl and like we're vibing, showing them a
little like freedom. They're like, you know, it's it's not

(33:17):
playing so easy to get. Yeah, I'll flirt with that person.
It just kind of maybe reminds them of how good
it is that we have. Sure, you know, it's being
like an It's like in an open relationship, if you
trust someone and you've got something solid, going off and
playing with someone is gonna be nice. But it almost
reminds you of the stability and the Yeah, that's very true.

Speaker 1 (33:37):
I think that's the hard I'm in a poly relationship,
and I think the hottest part of it is watching
my partners get hit on or people because it's.

Speaker 2 (33:48):
Just like oh yeah, like and I don't like go
make up with them, go fuck them. I don't care.

Speaker 1 (33:52):
Yeah, because you're gonna come back, Yeah, totally, and like
we're good, you will come back, You will come back. Yes,
we have some papers that are sign that you have love.

Speaker 3 (34:00):
Like when I like someone and they are like the
world or other people in my environment are seeing the
reasons why I like them and why we're roommates or
why we're you know, crushing on each other. It's you know,
it's validating in that way. It shouldn't be the only
source of validation obviously, but like, I love that it's like, no,
you're attractive to other people besides me. That makes me
more attracted to you too.

Speaker 2 (34:20):
Yeah, I get that.

Speaker 1 (34:22):
I just hate that it's an unrequited love because it
tells me that it's like you haven't told them.

Speaker 2 (34:28):
Which that word is familiar to me, unrequired Shakespeare. Do
you see why I skip that word to it.

Speaker 1 (34:35):
Yeah, it's a scary. It's scared to love somebody and
not have it come back. We're not sure if it's
going to come back or.

Speaker 2 (34:42):
They or they don't love you. That I know it's
even scarier.

Speaker 3 (34:46):
And that's completely true that, like all of this is
scary for me, it's knowing that we we definitely both
love each other.

Speaker 2 (34:53):
Uh huh. But there is a detail in terms of
our sexuality and what we label our sexuality as that
prevents us from going into romantic territory.

Speaker 1 (35:03):
I e.

Speaker 3 (35:03):
And I think a lot of people can relate to this.
I'm queer and you are straight. But there's such a
powerful force between us. We see that everyone sees and feels,
but because of the label, which you know, the labels
might be true like that is, I'm not I don't
have the time to like help you switch your labels
in that way.

Speaker 2 (35:22):
I simply don't have the time. I'm busy. I'm busy.

Speaker 3 (35:25):
It is just so interesting having experienced a romance basically
that is that has like a kind of a stopper
to it because of that label. And I've talked about
this on my Instagram. I wrote a little a letter
from griff about falling in love with straight man. Yeah,
because it happened, it had it has happened to me
multiple times before I realized what I deserved. And when

(35:45):
I posted that, a lot of my queer friends resonated
with that because they're safe to love because you know.

Speaker 2 (35:51):
I'm never going to return it exactly.

Speaker 1 (35:53):
Yes, absolutely, and so yeah, I think a lot of
people do we do that with. I think queer folks
can do that with with somebody who's straight. I think
it also happened with people who are attracted to someone
who's in a relationship with the cheating that stuff where
you're like, oh, there's a safety and not in knowing
that they can't return that love. And so that's why
we pursue it as opposed to putting yourself out there
for a real Yeah, I wouldn't say a real love,

(36:16):
but a relationship that.

Speaker 2 (36:18):
Actually could go somewhere totally. Yeah, it's far more terrifying.

Speaker 3 (36:22):
Yeah, human nature. I feel like to chase down stuff.
I mean we see it in like movies.

Speaker 1 (36:27):
Yeah, just show it's so romanticizing movies. But it's like girl,
love yourself totally. But it's like to to your word earlier,
the chase of it is like that is it's it's
okay to chase. It's just a matter of being like
and this happened with this person that I'm talking about
and will foosball in the name. But like at a
certain point, I just like literally had an out of

(36:47):
body moment by white acid and I was like, I
have to I have to start like giving myself what
I deserve.

Speaker 3 (36:56):
And it changed a lot. Yeah, but it also didn't chat,
which it makes it even more confusing. But just having
that perspective for what I deserve changed a lot for me,
and it like really just felt good.

Speaker 1 (37:09):
That is the work, ultimately, I think for all of
us is there's so much I think this is for
women and for queer folks specifically and bipoc right, It's
that like we're taught and trained to be of service
to others, to provide for others productive, so all of
our worth comes from how well we can take care
of others and the validation from others, and needing to

(37:32):
switch that and put the mirror in your face and
be like, wait, do I like this?

Speaker 2 (37:35):
Do I love this? What do I think I deserve?

Speaker 1 (37:38):
And then really setting those boundaries, like you can chase,
but there are limits to that chase. A very small
example of that is I was at a party and
I was talking to a guy who was very cute,
and there was a vibe there, but then as a
night progressed, it was like, oh, there's a vibe here,
but you're not necessarily giving back as much.

Speaker 2 (37:55):
So then I'm I'm going to move on.

Speaker 1 (37:57):
And I moved on and found another beautiful man who
was like but it was like, oh, an old version
of me would have like still tried to like it, like, oh,
like no, there has to be a push and pull,
give and take in the chase, otherwise it's not totally I.

Speaker 2 (38:14):
Feel like yeah, for sure, I mean, god, we could
go on and we could on we could Okay, this
last one this is your submission, oh, my submission or
my emission?

Speaker 1 (38:28):
Well ooh ooh words, So this one is so grim.
You sent me a screenshot from which app?

Speaker 2 (38:40):
Was it?

Speaker 3 (38:40):
This is Sniffy's. Because I got off of Grinder months ago.
I was like, I'm off Grinder, I'm in a new chapter.
I'm a fucking hero every years. Yeah, and then I
quickly got on too Sniffys, which is like trading out
Heroin for math at this point. But Sniffy's has actually
been interesting because it is less. It is not a
dating app, it's a cruising app. So I find myself
less confused by my interactions because everyone's correct and so,

(39:04):
and I don't use it as much as Grinder because
of that reason. Like I'm just I'm evolving out of
something that I was like rooted in before. So Sniffy'
has been cool. I see I see a future where
that's just not really part of my life sure at all,
But currently I'm on it and yeah, someone messaged me.

Speaker 2 (39:21):
I sent it to you, yes, and so the the
the interaction was them saying getting some action on and off?
I said on and off.

Speaker 1 (39:31):
You said on and off, and then you asked them
you you yep, and they said rarely yes. And then
you said and I almost knew what they were getting at.
And you had mentioned earlier something about the expectations between sorry,
the expectations behind being bipoc and queer and just bipock
in general, the world in certain sexual instances, and I

(39:52):
knew exactly what this person was getting I felt it,
you felt it, and he said.

Speaker 2 (39:55):
He said.

Speaker 1 (39:56):
I asked him why us why and he said, only
a handful are looking for a black bottom.

Speaker 3 (40:01):
And I knew he was gonna say that. Obviously, his
profile picture was back arched jock on. He looked great,
and I was. I knew exactly what he was marching
towards because a lot of people see my profile, and
because I'm prettier or more feminine looking, they think I'm
a bottom just by my photos, and I'm verse, and.

Speaker 1 (40:19):
My boyfriend has that he has a softer face, so
everyone and a fat ass. Everyone assumes fat as fat as,
everyone assumes that he's a bottom. Yes, I mean, he's verse,
but that's a top.

Speaker 2 (40:31):
Girl. It's just so hard being pretty, you pretty girls,
Oh my god, but difficult. It goes to like the pretty,
the black, the tall.

Speaker 3 (40:40):
Talls for instance, like, oh, you're a top because you're
six five, you know, Actually I like to.

Speaker 1 (40:44):
Take most most of my bottoms are tall bottom. Most
of my bottoms are six four big.

Speaker 2 (40:49):
Yes, I like a I like a guy who can
handle a little bit. I always say that.

Speaker 1 (40:55):
I always say, the more muscular they are, the more
of a bottom they are. They're built to those big
jim boys. They want that dickam and I've experienced that too.

Speaker 3 (41:06):
It's kind of the expectation of like what people are
looking for from me and obviously him on these apps,
which is like the BBC, the big black cock of
it all, which I literally just had an interaction about.
Actually I didn't because I was just like, I've stopped
kind of.

Speaker 2 (41:22):
So interesting.

Speaker 3 (41:23):
I'd be curious to hear what your thoughts are on that.
But yeah, it just really struck me. I knew I
was coming in to record with you, and I was
just really curious. I guess what your experience has been
with not only strangers, but like I guess just courtships
in general, and the expectations behind what people think were

(41:43):
meant to be in bed as perpetuated. I think by
porn and Hollywood and the kind of like yeah, just
the stereotypes that.

Speaker 2 (41:53):
And a lot of people, Yeah, okay, let's yeah, we're
going to do this.

Speaker 1 (41:58):
I'm I was glad when I when not glad about
the interaction, but I was like, oh, yeah, this is
this is something that needs to be talked about, but
like in what forum because it's so nuanced and complicated
and get a little spicy, and so I just want
to say to the listeners, let's remind you these mandates.
Anything said, it has the right to evolve, shift and change.
And this show is messy, so things will be said

(42:20):
imperfectly and we'll do our best to kind of navigate it.
So if you also, if you have a foosball moment,
email obviously you know this isn't having live so email
or message and I will address it in a later episode.
I relate to this because I have I experienced this
where I'm six one about one eighty eighty five, but

(42:41):
I'm verse now, but for a lot of my sexual
history have been a bottom okay and yeah it's yeah
girl at and I've had to do a lot of
work around bottom shame and earning it. But yes, my
experience is that when people see me, they want a top. Yeah,

(43:01):
and that like even even the person who's on grinders
saying they're a top, I message them suddenly they want to.

Speaker 2 (43:10):
Bottom literally.

Speaker 1 (43:14):
Little while like they're a profile, will say the top
or verse top, and I will reach out and they'll
be like, can you taught me?

Speaker 2 (43:20):
And I'm like, oh yeah, I yeah, yeah, but I
was reaching out to you because.

Speaker 1 (43:24):
Because you're on top literally he said, you're not top, mindsets,
verse or something to say anything at all, But yeah,
there is a and I think that that is a
complete correlation to fetishism.

Speaker 2 (43:36):
So yes, I should also specify that my relationship with.

Speaker 1 (43:39):
Non black people and black people are different completely. So
when I'm with black people, there are black men. The
nuance here is that my femininity becomes an issue. Interesting,
So the thing I I bump up against when I
am talking to a black man most all the time,

(44:00):
but a lot of times is my femininity. Yes, And
so the desire because because whether we and I kind
of scarcious with you, but like inside of the community,
there's still a lot of homophobia, and we were all
raised in it, we're indoctrinated in it, and so there
is I remember months ago I saw a TikTok with
this young black man who is a femme as could

(44:24):
be absolutely.

Speaker 2 (44:25):
And this video was him.

Speaker 1 (44:28):
Uh ridiculing trans women, and I was like, Oh, isn't
this interesting. You are somebody who would be ridiculed in
the community as being a feminine black gay man, and
you're here ridiculing.

Speaker 2 (44:42):
Black trans women.

Speaker 1 (44:44):
The oppressor becoming the oppressed becoming oppressors, right, And so
it's like, oh, this is what is the value inside
of our community, which tends to be around a lot
of masculinity, and like, you can be gay, but don't
be the one taking it in the butt, right. You
can be gay, but don't be like over there. And
this idea that femininity or transness or non binariness is

(45:06):
somehow immediately whiteness. So that's the thing what I come
up against in uh in in our community spaces, when
I'm dealing with people who are non black, what I
come up against is similar, Like they want the masculinity,
but it's more so they want me to top penetrate them,
penetrate them as opposed to being a bottom. And I
have had the experience with you have to cut in

(45:27):
half where like if they do want me to bottom,
not all the time, clearly, but there has been even
more fetishization around that too, where it's like now it's like, yeah,
I want you my black boy, a submissive slave boy.
Like I've had people say that, You're like, oh, so,
like it is a mind all that to express it.

(45:49):
It is a mine field, mindfield to be at the
intersections of your race and your sexual orientation and your
gender expression. And I think it's especially a minefield if
you are like in Los Angeles or New York and
you're in the industry, and so you tend to just
work around and exist. Like if you pull up my
grid where I live in in Hollywood, it's it's predominantly white.

(46:14):
That's not like I can scroll and scroll and scroll
and it's predominantly still gonna be a lot of white boys.
And so even just like the options there are are
are something to navigate right going to West Hollywood, like, yes,
there are black people there, but like predominantly you know,
it's like totally when I'm thinking about hitting on somebody,

(46:35):
it's just usually the black people there are my friends, yeah, exactly,
and maybe another gaggle over there. And so then it
brings up for me recently has brought up what are
the spaces I'm in? How can I be more intentional
about those spaces and you know, looking for the far
more intensively looking for black queer parties. And I use

(46:59):
the word queer specif because it's gay and queer.

Speaker 2 (47:02):
Not the same.

Speaker 1 (47:02):
Yes, Oh my gosh, there tends to be a lot
more policing around masculinity in those gay spaces.

Speaker 2 (47:08):
Totally. Yes. Yeah, anyways, that's where I said a lot
go ahead, are well now?

Speaker 3 (47:13):
Thank you for saying that, because it's so interesting, and
I think these conversations between BIPOC queer people specifically for me,
it's just so fascinating for your listeners context because all
of my listeners know I was adopted when I was
a baby. My parents are both white, and I grew
up in a very rural, white environment in northern New York. Yeah,

(47:34):
and when I went to college, I guess, since I
went to college in twenty ten, every year since my
world has just become way more diverse. And so where
I currently stand in my experiences now are just so
interesting to weigh against, like the places I've had to
come up in my queerness, and that includes understanding my

(47:56):
queerness and my sexuality in the environments that I've found myself,
which in Boston would was predominantly white unless you literally
like go across the like the tee, the Red Line.
And then it was Los Angeles, which has been such
a playground for me because I'm like, well, this is
the most diverse place I've ever lived in my life.
But because of that, it brings up even more just

(48:19):
not complications, but like it brings up more of a
need to figure out my place.

Speaker 2 (48:24):
Within the community.

Speaker 3 (48:25):
Because we are now I have the choice and I
am actively choosing certain things, whereas growing up I didn't
have the choice of going to a queer black party
or a queer a black family's home. Like it. It
casts me in completely different roles based on the environments
I'm choosing to put myself in. And there is a
huge difference between going out in West Hollywood on any

(48:47):
given weekend night and then going somewhere on the east Side,
which is to your point, I completely agree, more queer
on the east Side versus gay, capital gay, gay masculine men,
and so those categories just trick down for anyone, let
alone someone who is black, who looks feminine but is
masculine leaning, and who wants to lean into his feminineyoneever

(49:09):
the fuck he wants to. And so, But like every
choice and how we express ourselves is received differently by
different people, and so I it is, you know, interacting
with my white friends or white pursuits sexually or romantically
versus black hookups or romantic partners is just literally pun
intended night and day. And I feel different senses of

(49:33):
power in both environments. But what I no longer, I
mean not no longer, because I can't control everyone if
I had a perfect world. But like it's it's more
of a it's more of what I choose to absorb
versus what I and the lack of control I have
over people's actions. And for me, it's just really frustrating

(49:54):
as someone who's grown up very unconventionally and but like
walks this world as a I think, very visible black
queer person.

Speaker 2 (50:04):
It's just so funny that.

Speaker 3 (50:05):
We're in these environments to your point, where we're encouraging
everyone to lead with less judgment, and then you get
into the environments that have been so judged, and they
are the ones perpetuating a now more niche judgment. Yes,
and so it's like when and where, and you know,
that's a matter of finding these spaces. And I have
found these spaces. When and where are we going to

(50:26):
just let someone walk in or interact with someone and
give them just a fucking blank slate and then and
like make your decisions and your understanding of them based
on how they present themselves to you.

Speaker 1 (50:36):
Yeah, this actually goes back to what we were talking
about earlier in terms of looking for intimacy versus the chase,
because I think with this person saying, like, you know,
people rarely want a black bottom, It's like for me
now going into those spaces, I have that understanding. Yeah,

(50:58):
so I'm not chasing that. Like listen, I'm still deuced
and ready, but I'm not looking to have the experience.
And sometimes when I'm with one of my white friends
or some of my white friends, I'm like, I.

Speaker 2 (51:10):
Can see, I can see the swarm. And I know
that this is important to say.

Speaker 1 (51:17):
When I'm with my white friends and I see the
swarm around them, I have learned that it has nothing
to do with my level of attractiveness or my level
of worth or sexiness, that there is a racial dynamic happening.

Speaker 2 (51:30):
Let's just you know, like put it on the table.

Speaker 1 (51:32):
That is what the bucket is, absolutely and so I
don't absorb that as like, oh, I'm not sexy enough.
Like I went to my Oh, I went to a
Halloween party and I was in a skirt and I
was in a whatever, and my other friend was like
in like a construction worker outfit. And I knew that
we were going to be received differently. I like that

(51:53):
I was I was exuding femininity and so I was
immediately going to be differently than him who was exuding masculinity.
And so because I know that, then I don't have
to absorb the quote unquote rejection or the lack of interest,
and in fact, I can then move my attention to
who is actually drawn to it. To me, it does

(52:15):
some of the work, right, It does something. It like
weeds out all the bullshit because then the person that
is attracted to me as I am, I'm probably gonna
have a better time with than the person who needed
convincing or is now attracted because they've.

Speaker 2 (52:28):
Had a couple of drinks and it's like totally have
you had this? I'm sure you've had this. We're like
I will leave.

Speaker 1 (52:32):
I will be at a party for an hour or
two hours, no one talks, whatever, and I'm like, this
is birds.

Speaker 2 (52:38):
So I like get myself, I like get my shit
together to leave.

Speaker 1 (52:42):
And then somebody like you're leaving, you're so beautiful. I'm like, bitch,
I've been here. Yeah, okay, goodbye.

Speaker 3 (52:49):
Yeah No, it's like you had an hour and a
half to to whatever, like whatever, and like it's like,
oh that, but there's just like that, I don't.

Speaker 2 (52:58):
Know, it's totally weird.

Speaker 3 (53:00):
It's really complicated like it is, and it's so unique
to everyone's experience based on all of the like intricacies
of each person. Categorically, I think where I understand everything
you're saying. Yeah, and that's why I wanted to send
it to you and your show, and I was just
so fascinated by it. But yeah, it's it's for me,
and to what you said, it's just a matter of

(53:21):
understanding my power and putting myself in environments that that
where that power is not uplifted by any means, but
like uplifted in a sense that like it's giving me
just the platform to just start at the same level
as everyone. Yeah, And I'm in control of being in
those environments. I know that if I go to you know,
a white friend's gathering at their place, I've been to

(53:43):
their places, so I know that, like there's going to
be a few people of color, what the majority of
people aren't.

Speaker 2 (53:47):
So it's like, I know the role that I'm.

Speaker 3 (53:49):
Playing, and I'm not going to let that affect how
I view my power and my You know your expectations,
you know, You're like, I know the expectations of the environment.

Speaker 1 (53:59):
I don't need to conform to the environment or I
need to or I need to think less of myself
or shrink myself. I'm gonna show up as my full self.
But understand in this space, like y'all are on some
other ship and that's fine, that's something to do with me.
And then put myself in, as you say, in those
spaces where I feel like I can get that that reciprocity, Hella,

(54:20):
Lauren Hill, you know, put yourself in those and that
changes up to this, to this black bottom, I would say,
you know, there are plenty of people who love a
black bottom. It's just like, what spaces are we occupying
totally and recognizing that depending on what your your job
and your location is, you might have to do a

(54:40):
little more work to move into those spaces, which is
which is fair. And like you know, I think what
gets scary about it, and I'm willing to say this publicly,
is that what then happens is the qualifying and quantifying
of your blackness. And exactly is what always makes it
shitty is that there there tends to be a judgment

(55:00):
that you can get from white folks, and there also
tends to be a judgment that you can get from
your community. Yeah, and then like if you're somebody who
has had to ride the line by way of whether
it's your parents or white or you were sent to
pwi's or whatever it is, I think you're constantly negotiating
totally who is qualifying or quantifying your blackness and what

(55:22):
makes you actually black and if you're black enough, all
of that comes into play and starts to fuck with
how you see yourself totally and whether or not you
feel valuable and if you're doing if you're.

Speaker 3 (55:37):
Doing it right yet unquote totally I received the most
of that obviously given my background. Like it is, I'm
just like there's a an I'll end here because I
feel like I could go on so long about this,
but like, I know what I represent, and I want
to make sure that I am honoring that. Yeah, because
it's not only important for me, but especially as creators,
it's important for people consuming us to see themselves us

(56:00):
And so I'm always trying to understand that and who
I am my blood, my skin color, my history, my biology.
But I'm also simply not going to continue to scream
at the top of my lungs that I am something
because someone is questioning that yes, And I think I'm

(56:21):
more interested in getting past the screaming and the judgment
and sitting down and talking about what we're really getting at,
which is, you know, what makes us different and what
makes us similar, which everyone on this earth engages in constantly.
It's just a little different for people that have such
heavy expectations, like our black Bottom Summer, coming into situations,

(56:43):
especially when it's on a dating app where people are
being purposely anonymous.

Speaker 2 (56:48):
They're saying all the shit that they would never say
yes because they would get clocked.

Speaker 3 (56:53):
In the throat, and that just goes like, you know,
and if I had to say something to our black bottom.
I wish I knew what his name is, even if
I we keep it anonymous, like it's just you will
continue to experience that because I continue to experience Yes,
So at what point are you going to say goodbye
to that app and find to our point in an
environment that doesn't require you to perform in that kind

(57:14):
of way.

Speaker 1 (57:15):
Absolutely, and even if it's not saying goodbye to the app.
But it's like the moment I smell it, the moment
I smell anything that feels off, Yeah, I don't need
to engage anymore. It's like it's a block. It's an
end of the conversation. And you go where you are valued,
go where people light up when they see you. You
know what I'm saying, And if you're not in those spaces,
don't stop until you find the spaces because the other thing,

(57:37):
and this is where I'll end, is I realized because
you know, for me, and we'll probably do another episode
on this. But I have a white husband, and so
sometimes my blackness not Sometimes a lot of times my
blackness gets.

Speaker 2 (57:51):
Qualified or people want to take my black.

Speaker 1 (57:54):
Card away because my husband's white. And so then I
get into this headspace where it's like Oh my god,
do I divorce my husband? I don't mean that literally no,
in those moments where you're like, god, it would be
so much easier if my partner is black, because people
think I hate my blackness. For people, it's like, no,
I don't, And why am I screaming that I don't
when it's like, okay, perception. This is all about people's perception.

(58:15):
So am I actually happy? Am I safe? Am I protected?
Do I love my husband? It's not about his whiteness,
it's who he is. Do I love myself? Do I
know that I'm black?

Speaker 2 (58:24):
Yes? Great?

Speaker 1 (58:24):
Yes, great, So then that's all that matters. Well, however, however,
anyone wants to in take the information of my white partner,
whatever it is that I've said or done, and they
want to qualify or quantify my blackness, that's actually.

Speaker 2 (58:36):
Not my business.

Speaker 1 (58:37):
Nope, nope, my business is no way to fuck I
am what I'm about and moving from there, I think
that's you know all all anyone can do whatever, And
you know we're using the context of blackness. But this
works in every area, right, It works whether you're LATINX,
if you're trans, if you're not like you know who
you are. I also feel this as somebody who's not binary?
Am I non binary enough?

Speaker 2 (58:58):
Right?

Speaker 1 (58:58):
Like?

Speaker 2 (58:59):
You know who you are are? Fuck the perception yep?
Do you exist in that? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (59:04):
And the right people will come to you, and if
you validate it yourself first, the world will.

Speaker 2 (59:09):
Catch up totally, totally.

Speaker 3 (59:11):
Yeah, it's the critiques just are so loud, and it's
like it can be like one in ten are a
critique and then the other nine are just complete acceptance
and like understanding and not even just understanding. It's like
the allowance of letting you just show yourself to me
and then I build my understanding of you from that.

(59:31):
It's just the critiques are so loud. Yeah, but I
I know this, like there are there's a world for you,
and there's people for you, and there's environments for you.
It's just you'll probably have to work a little harder
to find them. Yes, but my god, it feels so
good when you do, and it just makes you realize
how little you need. Those critiques and those questions, which

(59:53):
are fine, but like the constant cadence of them are
a little exhausting. But it's just you've you got work
a little harder to find your people. Yeah, your people, yeah,
because they're out there. Yeah, you haven't met all the
people who will love you yet, as they say, or
you haven't you know you'll forever be it.

Speaker 2 (01:00:10):
No, no, no, no you haven't. Well, thank you so
much for being here, grim.

Speaker 3 (01:00:14):
Thank you for having me this feel. This is a
really safe space that you've cultivated, and like it's so
important for people like us and people not like us
to just have a space like that and to dive deep.

Speaker 2 (01:00:25):
If they want to. Thank you. Yeah, we'll talk to
you soon, talk to you soon. Bye bye. You know
that we're hoes here, but we're hoes with heart. So
before we go, I would like to speak to yours.

Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
I really, really really cannot express enough gratitude for this
conversation because it's the sticky shit, it's the granular shit,
it's the ship that like you normally can't talk about
public spaces.

Speaker 2 (01:01:01):
It's something that happens.

Speaker 1 (01:01:02):
At French tables or in like you know, in the
on the couch and the corners, in the dark corners.
But it's something that I think that needs to be
spoken about more out loud because I know that a
lot of us experience everything that Griff was talking about
things that I was talking about versions of it, but
we don't have the language, and I think by talking
about it together, we can develop the language, and then

(01:01:23):
if you develop the language, you can forge a path
towards healing. A couple of things that I want to
bring up is that hoeing is data.

Speaker 2 (01:01:35):
Okay, you heard it here. Hoeing is data. Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
Sometimes we get so in our feelings when whether it's
a fuck buddy or a romantic partner doesn't work out.

Speaker 2 (01:01:46):
And I always like to remind people it's data. You
get closer to what you want what you don't want.
Its information.

Speaker 1 (01:01:54):
Also, my therapist always says, with love comes heartbreak, and
so in the I'm thinking about when griff was talking
about falling in love with some straight friends, or when
people whether that you know you also relate to that
falling in love with straight friends, or you know, falling
in love with somebody who's already in a relationship like this,
ways in which we protect ourselves from actually being able

(01:02:16):
to receive love, because with love comes heartbreak. But the
moment you can accept that and also appreciate that, I
think that's where your power and your strength will come
back to you. Where you know that this gets to
be an experience and there's.

Speaker 2 (01:02:31):
Still value in it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:33):
There's still value in me loving and being loved, even
if it doesn't last for the rest of our life,
even if we don't get to stay together, even if
we break up, we can still love each other. Like reframing, well,
I think we grew up in media watching our favorite shows,
our favorite characters. They break up and it's over and
it's awful and it's terrible, when in reality like love

(01:02:55):
can flow, allow love to flow, you know what I'm saying. Also,
I really stand by If you can't give me a
better time than I can give myself, then I do
not need to be there. I just want to repeat that,
and I want to offer that to you to liberate you.
If like fuck fomo, really and truly homo fomo any fomo,

(01:03:15):
fuck it. If you like you are the time, you are,
the party, you are, the event, you are, the function,
you are that bitch, honey, I'm talking right to yeah, honey,
I'm talking right to you.

Speaker 2 (01:03:25):
So when you're by yourself, it's a great time.

Speaker 1 (01:03:28):
And if you're gonna step out of your house and
put on hard clothes, you know you're not gonna put
on the sweat.

Speaker 2 (01:03:32):
You gonna put them the hard jeans and them tight skirts.

Speaker 1 (01:03:34):
Or whatever it is, high heels, whatever it is, you're
gonna put on something hard on your body, it better
be because you go with somewhere fabulous or you going
somewhere where you're getting paid.

Speaker 2 (01:03:42):
Okay, Amen, hallelujah, hol lujah. Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:03:47):
If you make me put on a hard show, I'm
either getting paid or I know that it's going to
be a fabulous time, and if not, I'm gonna stay
my ass at home. Finally, you know, we got into
like the granulars of what it is to qualify and
quantify one's identity. So we talk specifically about you know,
blackness and queerness, but whatever your identity labels are, I'm

(01:04:08):
sure you've experienced the qualifying and the quantifying of it
from yourself and from other people, especially if you're anyone
who lives in an intersection where you feel like your
own community sometimes doesn't hold you. I want to remind
you that the community is large, and so know that
maybe certain sectors of our communities may not hold us,

(01:04:32):
it doesn't mean that the community as a whole can't
hold us. Yeah, So it's really about being diligent and
clear about finding your places, finding your spaces that affirm you,
that feel soft, that feel good, that don't have you
on edge. That's also getting in touch with what your
body is doing. If you walk into a party, or

(01:04:52):
you are going to lunch with somebody, or you always
have these interactions with certain people, and you always feel
on edge, you don't feel settled, you can't take a breath.
That's probably not where you need to be. And I
don't care how cool they are, how cute they are,
how fancy they are. If you don't feel settled there,
then it might not be the space you need to

(01:05:14):
be in. So go somewhere that feels soft. I'm not
saying that. You know, sometimes there's a difference between like
growth and growth being uncomfortable versus like this doesn't feel good,
I don't feel safe at all. Those are two different things.
So if you're uncomfortable because you're growing, that's one thing.

Speaker 2 (01:05:33):
Clock that.

Speaker 1 (01:05:34):
But if you are not feeling safe because the energy
of the people you're around, of the space you're in
is not bright, it's quite dark, then get out of
their baby. If you validate yourself first, the world will
catch up at the end of the day. I think
a lot of our suffering comes around perception and our

(01:05:54):
fear of being perceived and how we're being perceived. I
think about it as a like if I ever had
to walk across a crowded room of my peers, I
would just I would disassociate. I would break down because
I was just thinking about what they were thinking about me,
as opposed to thinking about.

Speaker 2 (01:06:15):
What am I thinking about me?

Speaker 1 (01:06:16):
If I think I'm cool and I love what's going on,
and I love what I'm wearing, I love how I
show up, I love my kindness, I love my heart,
I love my comedy. I love if I can get
in a place where I love myself like that, I'll
give a fuck what anyone else is thinking. And also,
by the way, a lot of people they not thinking
about you. So how often are you stunting yourself, stopping

(01:06:42):
yourself from experiencing things, stopping yourself from moving through the
world because you are afraid of how other people will
see you? How are you robbing yourself of joy? How
are you robbing yourself of love, of your power because
of your fear of how you will be perceived? Validate yourself, baby,
and the world will catch up. Affirm yourself, love yourself,

(01:07:06):
treat yourself the way that you want to be treated,
be kind to yourself, and the world will catch up.
And when you do that, you will know very clearly
when other people aren't doing it, and you can know, oh, pivot,
that's not where I'm supposed to be because I know
I treat myself well and so I know what being
treated well feels like. And that's where I demand, to

(01:07:27):
use Griff's word that those are the spaces.

Speaker 2 (01:07:28):
I demand to be in. Okay, those are my thoughts.

Speaker 1 (01:07:32):
If you have more thoughts, please email tell Me Something
Messy at gmail dot com. Okay, I love you. You
can find Griff on Instagram at Griff stark ns that
is g r I F F Stark s t A
r k n s.

Speaker 2 (01:07:47):
E n NIS.

Speaker 1 (01:07:49):
You can find me on Instagram as well at Brandon
Kyle Goodman. You can find our podcast at tell Me
Something Messy, and you can join our community on the
Messy Monday's substack. When you subscribe, you'll get weekly posts,
recommendations on sex and self and so much more. Also,
I want to hear from you, so send your topic ideas,
your messy stories, your submissions, your game ideas. To tell

(01:08:14):
Me Something Messy at gmail dot com. You can also
call us at six six nine sixty nine Messy. That
is six six nine six ninety six three seven seven nine, Rate, review,
and share this podcast with all your HOE and aspiring
HOE friends. Really really helps the show out, all right.
Until next time, ask about the politics of that dick

(01:08:36):
before you make it spit, make sure they eat the kitty.
Buffore what they beat the kitty before fuckation or succation communication.

Speaker 2 (01:08:44):
And in case you haven't heard it yet, today you
are so deeply loved. I love you, hie.

Speaker 1 (01:08:52):
Thank you so much for listening to tell Me Something Messy.
If you all enjoyed the show, send the episode to
someone else who might like it. Tell Me Something Messy
as executive produced by Ali Perry, Gabrielle Collins, and Yours Truly.
Our producer and editor is Vince Dejohnny. For more podcasts
from iHeartRadio and The Outspoken Network, visit the iHeartRadio app
or anywhere you subscribe to your favorite shows.