August 7, 2025 • 64 mins
Brandon is joined by Dr. Raquel Martin and Dr. Vanessa Marin as they unpack Brandon's experience from last year.
Trigger Warning: This episode contains discussion of sexual assault.
Brandon's Substack article: https://brandonkylegoodman.substack.com/p/now-that-you-know-what-happened-to
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You know what, this is a safe space to talk
about relationships, love and sex. Now let me tell you
something messy. Hi, welcome back. So this is part two
of three parts that we are doing around the topic
of sexual assault. So the first part I told a
story about something that happened to me back in September
(00:28):
of last year. So if you have the capacity and
the space to listen to that, go ahead. It'll give
you just a little more context about what we're going
to talk about in this episode. But also if you
are not able to for any reason, it's totally totally fine,
and I hope that this episode and the next episode
(00:50):
will still be of value to you. Well, I'm calling
this kind of the education and help section of this
I guess try effecta of episodes. So today we're going
to talk to doctor Raquel Martin and doctor Vanessa Marin.
(01:12):
With doctor Raquel Martin, we're going to get into you know,
what happens the moment after and blame and shame and
where what we do with all of that. And with
doctor Vanessa Maren we will talk about some of that
as well, but also reclaiming your body. So let's start
(01:35):
with doctor Raquel Martin who is a friend to our
show and is a licensed clinical psychologist, professor, and mental
health advocate known for her work centering black mental wellness
and racial trauma. Here is my convo with doctor Raquel.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
I actually kind of want to start with, like, I'm
glad you're okay.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Yeah, it's a shame, I don't even want to go
there yet, but like one glad that you're okay and
that you even had the ability to take the time
to process it. And it's not like an end of
the process. It's it's like, I'm sure there are going
to be times when you are you can be surprised
when like things just come back to you. So I
(02:12):
also want to normalize that for you as well. A
lot of people don't realize when you get out of
the unsafe environment, what they did was violate you, like
your body, and your body is your safe space. So
in an essence, like at times you may feel like,
you know, I'm not in the environment anymore, I don't
understand why I still feel unsafe, and it's like, well,
they violated your most safe space, and you take.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Your body with you everywhere everywhere, So it's also pretty
normal to just at times be like why am I not?
Like what is going on?
Speaker 1 (02:42):
When you feel like just like kind of jittery.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Jittery, that's called hypervigilance. It's also a sign of PTSD
intrusion symptoms when it just hits you like a certain scent.
I used to work at a sexual assault center and
one of the things was sent like perfumes and stuff
like that, like it was a firm No, because the
old factory, it can bring you back in that moment,
(03:08):
So it's a it's.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
A very big thing. I'm so glad you're okay.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
The shame and the guilt are actually very i would say,
very common. One of the activities I do I used
to do with my patients was we work on something.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Called the blame pie.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
And I would ask like, well, if we had to
put what part of this do you feel is your fault,
family member's fault, anyone who you know is sailing in
your life. And the goal is for the blame pie
to be one hundred percent of somebody else, Like I
don't want any percent on you because no matter what,
(03:41):
you were the person who was attacked. But I've never
worked with the patient where there wasn't at least I
would say they would put at least twenty percent of
the blame pie on them, and it's because they feel
shame and guilt. It can be well, I was friends
with this person. Well, the only you wouldn't have rape
about rapists, you know, so like that has nothing to
(04:02):
do with you. Oh, I should have left earlier. Once again,
the wouldn't have the scenario without the other person.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
It's very common. It's it's it's.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Almost sometimes I think people want to reach to something tangible,
like Okay, if I blame myself for this, that means
that I can just control the scenario to make sure
I'll never be in that situation again. So just taking
the responsibility on me, it'll be like, Okay, I did this, this,
and this, I'll never do this, this and this again,
which means this will never happen again, right, Like it'll
never happen again because this is on me, and I
(04:33):
wore that skirt. I'm never gonna wear the skirt again,
so I'm protected. It's it's it's almost like a way
to try to I can control my actions. So I'm
gonna blame me, and then by doing that, I'm only
dealing with that And there's there's no aspect of it
that will ever be your fault.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Like there you it's it's not possible.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
You're saying that, and it's making me even think about
the choice to do this episode I think was part
of my control. It's like, Okay, I can like figure
out out what part of this belongs to me, and
if I could talk about it, then like I can
protect myself and I can help other people protect themselves,
and I can prevent this thing from happening. But of
course there's the fear to admit that, like I can't
(05:12):
prevent this from happening to other people, and I can't
prevent it from happening to myself again. You know, there
are things we can do, But I think that that
is you're you're naming something that I that wasn't conscious
for me, which is that a lot of the shame
and the blame is coming from wanting to protect myself
from it happening again and even thinking about like you know,
(05:33):
the I think it was a week or two weeks later,
like I forced myself to go out because I was like,
I don't want to be defined by this. I don't
want this person to steal my ability to be out
with my friends to be in sex positive spaces, and
so I was like, I'm gonna I'm gonna go out.
(05:54):
Uh and it was it was I was fine, It
was fine. But yeah, there was a hypervigilance for sure
that evening And what can I do differently? And how
am I aware? I think I didn't drink that night.
I think, you know, just like a yeah, trying to
not trying to in some way thinking that I have
(06:15):
the control, that I have the control.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
A lot of my patients who have been assaulted or
had pretty traumatic events happened to them, which is an
assault in itself. I find that as they get older
and there are different scenarios, they often go through power struggles.
And I mentioned the fact that like trauma is the
ultimate thing that stole your choice. So a lot of
(06:38):
times you were going to you know, it took your power,
It took your choice. You are going to just have
like a hypervigilance for anything that may do that. Again,
it took your choice, it took your power. Power struggles
are understandable because even like you mentioned, like I'm going
to control every single thing.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
I'm not going to drink.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
I'm going to have all my faculties and all that, Like,
trauma stole your it made you feel like you were powerless,
it took your choice. And it's actually pretty typical for
people to be like maybe someone who was like, oh,
you know more chill, be.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Like no, I wanted this this in this way.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Yeah, no I'm not I'm not going to this thing
at this specific time. Gabrielle Union mentioned the fact that
she cannot be in any like restaurant or something if
she's not facing the door, like she has to see
the door. It is not a thing for her, and
that makes sense, you know. It's like, it's this is
what I can control. We're going to this restaurant. I
didn't pick the restaurant, but I am going to be
looking at the door.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Of the entire time.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
So it's also normal if you if you feel yourself
feeling more like stringent lately, like just being like no.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Yeah, I want to yeah, yeah, it has it's you know,
I think it's I think I'm not acknowledging. You know.
I recorded the story that the audience heard at the
top of the episode a couple of days after it happened,
and I did that on purpose because I wanted to
be able to remember a lot of it. And you know,
one of the pieces of advice that I got from
(07:57):
the therapist that we're going to talk to, doctor Vanessa
Marin was talking about it helps the process and like
talking about it with people and like getting that processing.
But now it's been a few months since it happened,
now that you and I are recording, and I'm reflecting
on my energy when I'm out, and one I will
say I haven't been out as much, which I'm now recognizing.
(08:21):
And two I think I'm I think I've normalized it,
but there is a I think I've doctor Markell. I
think I've always had a hypervigilance. I was raised by
three Caribbean black women, and now what's like plugged in
is that like from a baby. They were like, no
means no, you make sure that everything, like they were
(08:43):
really training, and I was like, oh, I'm sure that
my of course, my mother and my grandmother and my
godmother probably had some experiences that I don't know about,
but they wanted to raise me in this male body
to make sure that I was respectful to women. And
so my brain has only ever conceived of being the
(09:05):
attacker and making sure that I'm not the attacker and
that I'm not seen as that, and that I make
sure that you know the door's open and the da
da da. But I was never raised to think that
like it could happen to me, not past a certain age, right.
There was always like, hey, if anyone touches you, tell
me when I was little, But after a certain age,
it wasn't that. It was more so like, how are
(09:27):
you the aggressor? And don't be the aggressor, which I'm
very soft and like, so that wasn't no one was
worried about it, but that was definitely the drill in
to I think they wanted to make sure when I
got into the world that I would never be mistaken,
even like, uh, but there's no preparation for oh, this
could happen to you. And I think I got cocky.
(09:50):
That might not be the right word. But just like
I'm six one, I used to be a little skinnier
and smaller. And this is also fascinating to me bodies.
Like I said to my theor once, I was trying
to get bigger, more muscular, but I didn't want to
get too big because I didn't want to become a threat.
Uh like felt like like like what is what is
(10:12):
the appropriate size for my black male body to be
so that I can feel safe because in high school
being skinny, in college, being skinny definitely a target. Like
you know, uh, I'll never forget. I was walking, I
was teaching somewhere and I was I got off the
subway in Brooklyn. Where in Brooklyn was it like Kingsville
(10:33):
or something like that. And I got off the subway
and walked and this guy, black dude walked by me
and said, you fucking faggot out of nowhere, And like
there was that moment where like, oh my god.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Like I might I'm in danger.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
I'm in danger right now. And I'm like in a
neighborhood that is not mine, that is this man who
I've said nothing to is just called me a faggot.
And so I think I downloaded that if I were bigger,
that wouldn't happen. And so here I am in this
bigger body, and I think it was like, yeah, I
get to be the protector. I'm here to protect. And
(11:07):
even like I was there at that night with a
bunch of my friends and I had organized it and
I'm as I said in my story, I always have
the crossbody. I'm the one that has all the emodiums
and the advils and the lube and the like and
the gum. Like that's the role that I've adopted to
protect and I just didn't think that I would need protecting.
(11:28):
And I think that has been the like a part
of the mind fuck. And I'm gonna say something to
you that I haven't processed, but I think that is
part of the shame, is like blaming myself. And I, Okay,
I know logically what we're going to say here, but
(11:48):
let me just say the kind of human thing that
is not fully whatever, which is that I blame myself
for not protecting myself. I feel like shame for not
remembering to protect myself. That's not true. I know I did.
(12:11):
I know I did my best with what I knew.
As you said, like, there's not rape without a rapist,
right like that none of this can take away from
what that person was doing and was plotting to do.
But I think that that is something that I'm holding
is is you know, my mom always telling me watch
your drink, and I felt like I did all those
(12:31):
things and yet and yet here we are and It's like,
how do I make sense of that of being hyper
vigilant before I had to be, and then maybe like
letting my guard down, or just being in a scenario
that I wasn't expecting, which is the scenario of being
with somebody who you said, yeah, I want to fuck
(12:53):
and then they still they still do. The thing just
wasn't wasn't what. I just didn't have that as a
concept at all, as something to worry about.
Speaker 4 (13:05):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
Yeah, it's interesting because when you were talking, I was
thinking as soon as you said, you know, it was
kind of like leading to like I should have known better,
and I'm like, okay, so this is also leading to
the thought process of I'm blaming myself right, yes, because
I wasn't prepared. And it's you know, everyone will say
things like, oh, I should just logically know, and it's
(13:26):
just like listen, someone violating you. You being in a
safe environment where you literally you create this safe space
for people to express themselves and in a way where
they won't be shamed or guilty for being who they are,
and being violated in that space, it's like double triple
quadruple violation, you know, like I created the space, I'm
always open. And not only is this a physical community
(13:48):
where I'm creating this safe space, your hole, entire online
presence and book and all that is about. Like listen,
I'm not here to you can be as message as
you want. I'm not here to judge you.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Yeah, no, just you know, I have some sin be safe.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
You know. It's the same thing I tell my patients,
Like I'm not I don't think everything has to be
a life altering relationships. I'm not going to tell you
what to do. All I'm gonna tell you is have
some be safe, you know, as safe as you can
possibly be. And this is a perfect scenario. You were
as safe as you could have possibly been, and now
you're experiencing these hyper visions because your safe space was violated.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Yeh, and blaming yourself for that. Yeah. Like people use
guilt and shame interchangeably.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
There's there's guilt, which is the thought process of I
did something bad, and they're shame, which is ultimately like
I am bad. Like guilt would be, oh, I I
did something bad, I cust that person out. Shame would
be only a terrible human being with no integrity, integrity
(14:48):
person out, you know. And then there's a lot of
people dealing with toxic shame where they have, you know,
been reared in an environment where they always had to
you know, it was conditional love and no accountability, so
they you know, ultimately feel as though they're unlovable when
you dealing with this, this guilt is really tied to
the action of I should have done better, like what
(15:09):
I did was bad. What you're telling me is I
don't ultimately feel as though just from what you've shared,
and I also follow you on social media so that
you think that you are a bad person. But it
sounds like you were experiencing this guilt of I should
have known better, like I should have done things differently. Yeah,
and of course it's going to take time for you
to get comfortable to a space or even have your
body ultimately taking the message that I did everything I
(15:32):
was supposed to do.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
That person didn't do what they were supposed to do.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
You can know something logically all the time, but it
takes a while for your your body to catch up
with it. People can tell you stuff all the time,
right Someone will tell me, oh, don't freak out, Oh.
Speaker 5 (15:45):
Okay, I'm cured, but tell me not to be anxious.
Oh my god, why did no one tell me not to.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Be anxious before?
Speaker 5 (15:55):
Yeah, I would have been cured if my anxiety decades ago.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
You know, like never in the history of calming down
has telling someone to calm down, calm them down, you know,
like get a grap you know, it's I think it's
under it's of course, it's understandable.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
It's going to take time. We never. We can't choose.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
I think the most difficult part for individuals is, like
we can't choose what our body perceives as a threat.
The only thing we can choose or like control, is
like our responses to it. Like I can't choose.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
I can't.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
I can't control the fact that, like certain scenarios, even
if I don't recognize in my brain that like, oh,
this scenario reminds me.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Of another scenario where I was like unsafe.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
I can't control the fact that, like my heart rate
is increasing and I haven't even caught up to the
fact that, like that's the same kind of tree that
was in the room when I was attacked, right, But
all I can do is control the way I'm responding
to it. I don't know why I'm responding. Yet I
don't know why my heart rate is increased. I don't
know why like I hear, you know, muffled sounds and
stuff because I'm like zoning in. But I know that
when my heart rate increases, I do this. I know
(17:05):
that when I have body tension, I do this. I know,
uh that these are all signs that I feel unsafe,
and when I feel unsafe, my plan is to do this.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
It's interesting because our body can pick up on stuff
before we do.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
It'll just be like you.
Speaker 5 (17:20):
Know, yeah, it's very it's protective, right, and all you
can do is try to have like systems in place
where it's just like now you know my body.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
I'll be like now, now.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Girl, I don't know what's going on, but you know what,
I do know the plan that we have when this
does go on, and like when I exit this environment
or when I get to exit or when I feel
safe again, then I can process and be like what
the freak was that?
Speaker 1 (17:44):
You know?
Speaker 3 (17:45):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Girl, Yeah, there's a there's a quote that's going around
on Instagram that I love, which is like, uh, when
you're basically it's like when your gut activates, get out
of there. You can unpack the details later. It's like
something doesn't feel right, just like remove yourself and you
can unpack the details of that later. You don't have to.
(18:08):
Sometimes we try to go against what our body is feeling,
and our body oftentimes knows what's happening before our mind
really knows.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
Listen, I said this to my students in a class,
like my clinical class, and just being like, you know,
you're really working with your your patients to help them
be the inspector Gadget of themselves.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
And they were like, what sleep your gadget?
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Everything? Don't sleep on instructor Gadget.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
I'm like, so, just to heads up, everyone in this class,
you guys have all failed today.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Don't come back tomorrow. Quite honestly, you.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Brought this on yourself if you were. If you report
me to the dean, I guarantee you they'll be on.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
My side absolutely, because you should know who inspector gadget
is that you.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Are driving us nuts. You know, like, I can't do
this much longer because how you're here in his back
is not inspector Gadget.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
I'm like, oh my god, but you're really you're trying
to know when you're off your baseline, right, So like, yeah,
even like taking the time to be like, okay, so
it's easy.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
People need to know.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
It's easy to get to a tend on like the
anger or frustration or sadness scale when you're waking up
at an eight every day. But if you don't know
your body enough to know where you're at when you're
like a you know, I typically have maybe two negative
thoughts a day.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
This past week, I've had seven a day. Something's wrong. Oh,
you know.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
I typically enjoy this activity and I've been doing it
every single day, but like now I'm feeling like blunted.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
I feel numb to.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
It, like loss of self awareness. It's not there, and
it's hard to get that. If we're you know, we're
not able to slow down. Sometimes overworking is actually a
you know, that's a response to Like as.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Much as I overwork, I don't really have to.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
Key ind you know, what's going on, like because as
soon as it gets quiet or as soon as it
gets silent, I'm here with my thoughts and all of
the thoughts are bad scary, right, So yeah, our body,
I always say, get to a safe space. And one
of the things I work with my patients on is
like we do what's called a coping kit, but if
it's if it's sometimes you can't like leave immediately, Like
(20:20):
that one we put little makeup eggs and it'll be
like I'll do coping kits according to senses. Like it'll
be like, okay, so this is they got a romatherapy
sprayse you love laughteror put that you.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
On in there. Yeah, you know, you know, if I'm
talking about.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Sight, I'll do like calming things or your favorite meme
that no matter what's happening, you look at this meme
and you you basically pee yourself laughing, Like I put
that in there, you know. Like we talk about like
tactile things and I'm like, okay. One of my patients
something that helped them a lot was crocheting because you
got to have the tactile thing of the yarn, but
you also got to like key.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
In on the knots and stuff like that.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
There's that, but then there's also like if you are feeling,
you know, you can ground yourself into It's just very
intricate things. One of my patients, I say, go to
your car. You in the parking lot, you're looking at
the license plate every single letter, like do a name
somebody a name of that letter, Like I just want
you to think, like, okay, so it's a x Z
It's it's alex zebra zion. Okay, all right, keep going,
(21:18):
you know, like what's what's the next license plate?
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Is this this and this?
Speaker 3 (21:21):
Or you know, walk yourself through a routine, you know,
every single step of this routine. Like for me, I
typically walk myself through like the walk home back in
the day. So it's just like, Okay, I'm in this car,
I'm not in this car. If I'm going home, I'm
leaving the school. I gotta make a left off of
the of the school. I make a right, I go
down the hill, I pass that gas station that has
the worst next in life, I walk to more box.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
You know, like you know, like it's grounding.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
You to that moment, bring you back to yourself feel
safe again, and.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Then you can now you could be like what the
freak was that?
Speaker 1 (21:53):
You know, what's happening?
Speaker 2 (22:00):
How do I feel this way?
Speaker 3 (22:02):
And I feel like if you're feeling those moments more often,
especially if you know after this whole thing happened, you
got to revisit your coping kid like you know, you know,
it's as a clinician, like we're only as good as
the tools we take in. We think about it as
like our toolbox. But the toolbox is like the books
I read. The toolbox are like the encounters I've had
with patience, the toolboxes, the podcast I listen to, the toolboxes.
(22:25):
I'm taking in all these perspectives as a clinician, as
a human to try to make sure I'm also able
to then, you know, empathize and be there present with you.
You're you're gonna be the same way when you're dealing
with this, like your toolbox is, You're like, you know, like, Okay,
so last time this skill worked, that skill didn't work,
so we go on to skill two. Two ain't working. Dang,
it took me all the way to skill five before
(22:46):
I actually felt safe again. All Right, we gotta we
gotta figure this out, right, especially if you're feeling that
guilt in that safe space and you're feeling like you
need the whole can trump control piece, this whole entire
aspect of journey of healing and stuff like that, it's
like it's healing. You're never going to be fully healed
(23:07):
when you're more comfortable with yourself and knowing that, like you,
you're getting all the time that you deserve. You're giving
yourself that space. I feel like you you'll get more
comfortable with the third step or the fourth step, or
even if you need my voice in your head saying like,
oh well this took more time. Just hear doctor Martin.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Saying so yes, you know, like people who are you.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
Know, afraid of crying in front of that person? Oh,
this person, they seem uncomfortable with my tears. So who's
weirder the person who has emotions or the person trying
to make you feel uncomfortable for having emotions?
Speaker 2 (23:41):
You know, Yes, just hear me, just hearing my loud what.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
I will hear that, I will now keep and I
will hear that.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
So because it's normal.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
Even you mentioned the whole aspect of like I felt
this need to Like I don't know what's going on,
I still felt the need to protect the other person.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
We're black.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
We have this collective identity, this collective trauma, this automatic
like man still trying to protect people something And that's
just within us as a culture. When you have a
culture of people who have been so harmed by outsiders.
That's why it hurts so much more when the harm
is coming from inside the house, Like that is like
(24:25):
bruh freak.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
We celebrate qualmsa together.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Are you literally what's going on?
Speaker 2 (24:32):
What's happening?
Speaker 3 (24:33):
Like it's it's a it's you know, it's the ultimate disdain.
And like I think a lot of people and this
is why specialize in the black mental health helps, Like
there's so many people who can't understand that, right, Like, well,
why not just call the police? Well, one, we're black.
I don't even think I feel comfortable with the police,
let alone. You know, I am definitely the person who
was the victim. But but then there's the responsibility of
(24:57):
what if something happens to them because of this, right, right,
And that's not that's not to blame you, that's to
blame a system that was created. I don't think it's broken.
I think it works by design, it works how it's
supposed to work. But understanding that fear is understandable, like
the we you know, black people, we do the black
people not like I see black.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
People not all the time.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
A black woman calls me sugar baby, I'm like, oh my.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
God, yes, sister, brother, you know, So.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
It can also be an aspect of like guilt of
just being like, well I did not call the police,
or like yeah, well maybe I should have did things
differently walking through all these scenarios and what you needed
to do to feel safe, that's what you needed to do. Yeah,
there's there's there there shouldn't you know telling yourself that
normalizing your feelings, understanding that like the roots of you
(25:49):
being black or your culture identity is something that like
our fear of the police is justified over policing, not
knowing all of the alternatives.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Police are.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Not the direct sentence of slave patrols, right Like why
it's why would we ever feel.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Comfortable with police officers?
Speaker 3 (26:06):
And honestly, there should be more services in place so
that we don't need to call them, right Like there
are rape centers that are incredibly helpful, and it's it's
even worse that, like the system that's supposed to be
here technically to protect us, we don't even feel comfortable
calling Like that's.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Even that's a that's another violation.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
Like there's the thing I feel unsafe and I don't
even know who I can call, And how freaking unfair.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Is that you know, like how anfair is that?
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Because honestly it sucks.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
That sucks, and going offline, I do need to know
the hospital that you went.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
To that the person did not have resources.
Speaker 5 (26:40):
To be real with you my face like I had
to fix I saw you.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
I was like, Okay, great, that validated me because I
was like when I was like, this is kind of crazy,
isn't it. Yeah, just don't.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
No, that's not appropriate.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
Every single person, not only I mean I train clinicians.
I worked in a sexual assault center where every single
week we had meetings with the DA and also with
the police system to talk about the ways that we
prepare people. And one of the things we do is
share resources, and we also state that like say you
have a binder of resources, you should also every single
month be calling those resources. Because if I give you
a pamphlet and then I call that same number, they
(27:19):
don't answer. You rip up that freaking pamphlet. That's not
a resource anymore. If you also need to check your resources,
so like I mean, just text it to me, T.
I got you, T, because that's absurd. Like everyone should
know the resources of don't call police. Everyone should know
there's this whole thing by the Pratt Institute that they
give their students about like this is, and they do
(27:39):
it according to like what's the issue?
Speaker 2 (27:41):
Is it domestic violence? Is it sexual assault? Is it
you know any other like this? We could possibly call.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
Everyone should know that, especially if like I see this
all the time.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Yeah, I'm sorry, then we should figure this out. You're right,
doctor Martin. Thank you so much for being here. You're
for having this conversation. It was too short. We're going
to do a whole other situation. But I'm just so
grateful for you. This my heart feels that much better.
So thank you.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
I'm grateful for you. I thank you for creating the
spaces that you create. I mean that when I say
therapy is the only path to healing, but you creating
communities where people feel comfortable even just sharing something messy.
You gotta like when you got to think about like
the release that people have from that with like whether
it's reading your book or writing something in your stories
and you actually answer their question or letting them know
(28:34):
that like you like what you like, you don't like
what you don't like. People need to respect that that's
what you deserve. Like liberatory liberation spaces like that those
are healing, like building that community and being able to
do it like in social realms, because there are people
who will never they will never get to meet someone
like you, but they can log.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Into your you know stuff like yeah not because Brandon
said that's some bullshit.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
And yes, and doctor Martin said out.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Yes, you know, we can use the twenty five hour words.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
Well, it seems though your knees are not being respected
and you are allowed to have this all tim you
can be like, so, my feelings are my feelings, period periods.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
I love it. Thank you, doctor Martin.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
So. One of the first people that I reached out
to when this happened and I thought about making an
episode was doctor Vanessa Marin, who was on one of
the very first episodes of the show. And doctor Vanessa
Marin is a licensed sex therapist and author who specializes
in helping couples build stronger emotional and sexual intimacy. She's
(29:53):
incredible and has been such a backbone offline, and so
I wanted to have her on the mic sharing her
wisdom and knowledge with all of us. So here's my
combo with doctor Vanessa. When you've experienced any kind of violation,
you know, how do you take ownership of your body
(30:15):
again and of your sex and how do you feel
sexy again?
Speaker 4 (30:18):
Well, I'm really glad to hear that the tip to
talk about it openly was helpful for you. One of
the worst things that any sort of sexual abuse or
assault causes is makes us feel ashamed, and it makes
us feel like it's our fault. And so because of that,
we don't want to talk about it. We don't want
to tell anybody, and it can even lead to us
(30:41):
not acknowledging to ourselves that that had happened. A lot
of people who have been through these experiences will really
downplay what happened. We'll say it wasn't that bad, it
happened a long time ago. Other people have had it
so much worse than I did. So the act of
talking about it out loud, it forces you to acknowledge
(31:01):
to yourself, like, hey, this happens to me. And it
also is a way to combat the shame. Like shame
thrives in the dark, shame thrives in silence, and when
we can bring it out to the light of day,
when we can share it, of course, just with people
that we trust and love, that starts to peel the
shame away, and it lets us get support from people
(31:22):
who love us and care about us, and can you know,
validate those experiences and hold us in those experiences. So
that's absolutely one of the very first things that I
go to. The second thing that I go to is
talking to yourself about it too, So I kind of
reference this a bit just a second ago. But the
(31:42):
ways that we talk to ourselves about the things that
happen to us are really important too. I'm a big
fan of talking to myself. I'm kind of talking to
myself all day, like walking myself through things like, okay,
you're you're feeling this all right, that's okay, I understand
that it makes sense. So really, you know, talking to
yourself and letting yourself, giving yourself permission to feel whatever
(32:05):
it is that you're feeling, like all that validation is
so incredibly important. And then the third place that I
go to is starting to engage with your body again.
When somebody violates your boundaries, it makes you feel like
your body is not your own. And even you know,
some of the story that you were telling me, like
there was there was a piece of it of you
(32:27):
just kind of like, Okay, I'm just gonna like let
this happen to me, right, And there's a dissociation that
can happen for the vast majority of people who go
through this is our brain kind of realizes, Okay, my
body's here in the moment, there's nothing I can do
about this, but my brain's gonna check out. And so
it creates this real separation between our brains and our bodies.
(32:49):
But all of us like we need to have that integration.
So trying to find ways to like come back home
into your own skin. And this is very simple, but
very things like it could literally just be touching your
own body, and you compare that with the other tip
of like talking to yourself, talking to your body as
you touch it, like very softly.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Very gently.
Speaker 4 (33:11):
It could be some movement like walking around, could be
gentle maybe you feel better like running or doing something
high intensity. It could be baths. It could be like
putting lotion on your skin. Again, like just softly and
gently and with a lot of love. But those three
things are some of the most powerful tools that you can.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Use, I guess. So one of the reasons I wanted
to do this episode is because I really think that
the reason I was able to handle the situation at
all was because I had that conversation with a friend
a few weeks ago who had told me about their experience,
(33:49):
and so there was something downloaded in me to like
know how to react in a certain way, like even
the choosing between in the uber and texting a friend,
like having some cognizance that like okay, because because sometimes
my my apart from like again like my friend in college,
(34:12):
like my most of my relationship to essay, is going
to be through media, right, It's going to be through
you know, a special episode of of some television show,
or through a movie or something. And and uh, I
don't think I always. I think when I'm consuming media,
and a lot of us were consuming media, we're protecting
(34:32):
ourselves in a in a way and so maybe not
downloading it all. And so I think what I'm curious
about here is maybe talking about for that person who's
been or for the survivor what are the next steps
after that thing? Like when I went to the doctor,
you know, it was like if I had come in sooner,
(34:54):
they could have maybe tested my blood to see to
confirm that something was in it, or you know, this
was a little tricky because it was too it's two
of us that are black and male body, so the
police weren't exactly the right choice black and queer male
body to like, calling the police wasn't the That just
wasn't an option. But I'm wondering, like, if we can
(35:16):
maybe talk about what are the options when that happens,
What are the options for the survivor right after, or
what do they need? What do we need to be
thinking about?
Speaker 4 (35:29):
Yeah, and I think we need to just pause first
and take a moment to acknowledge how incredibly fucked that
is that you felt like calling the police, the people
who are supposed ostensibly supposed to be protecting us, that
you felt like that wasn't an option to you, and
so many other people feel like that's not an option
to them because of the color of our skin or
(35:50):
our identity, or what it looks like or who that
other person is. Like, it's sucked up and we need
to recognize that and make space for that. That how
incredibly painful that is, and how much work needs to
be done to make sure of it. That is not
the situation. So I want to I want to acknowledge that.
(36:12):
But in terms of you know, what should we do
immediately after? My best advice is to find somebody trusted
to call and tell as soon as you can, because
when you're going through an experience like that, your brain
is not in a rational place and your brain is
not thinking through Okay, what are the different steps and
(36:35):
when should I go to the hospital, and should I.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Call the police?
Speaker 4 (36:38):
And should I do this?
Speaker 2 (36:38):
And should I?
Speaker 4 (36:39):
You know, there's so it's just impossible to be in
that moment like thinking rationally. And so if you have
somebody that you trust that you can call, which I'm
you know, I'm so glad that you did have somebody
that you could call. But having somebody else where you
can just say something happened and I don't know what to.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Do and can you please help me?
Speaker 4 (36:59):
So in terms of you know, this is also something
that we can all do to prepare ourselves too. It's like,
can you identify a friend that's going to be your buddy?
Can the two of you talk openly about like, hey,
we're going to be there for each other. I'm the
number one person you call, You're the number one person
I call. So you just at least like like you
were saying you kind of had this idea in the
back of your head from that conversation. So at least
(37:22):
being able to have that idea in the back of
your head of oh, this is the person I call
and reminding yourself of that frequently. Maybe it's even you know,
if you're going out to parties, if you're going to
an event, if you're going on a first date, you know,
whatever it is to be able to like check in
with that friend beforehance. You just have it in the
back of your head.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
But that's that's.
Speaker 4 (37:40):
Definitely one of the most important steps that you can take.
And then from there, you know, if you feel and
again this is where it feels so fucked up, but
if you feel safe to call the police that you know,
it can be really important. And going into the hospital
as well, you can try to ask for you know,
(38:01):
do you have people who are trained in dealing with this,
who are you know, have experienced some sensitivity and compassion,
Like you can try to advocate for yourself a little bit,
but again, having that friend to be there can really
be like the best moves having somebody else advocate for
you so you can just focus on being there.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
You're saying that and I realize that, you know, I
have a couple of friends and we are our locations
are shared, and I'll get the messages. Like you know,
I'm going on a grinder hook of if you don't
hear back from me by this time, like you know,
and we say it. It's funny, we say it kind
of and this might be the male privilege because it's
a lot of male friends, but it's kind of said
in jes because there's maybe an expectation and now that
(38:43):
I'm speaking this out loud, like an unconscious expectation. Well,
you're a guy, you're a male body, like you can
handle it if something or nothing will happen to you,
which is obviously not true. But obviously that doesn't make
space for when it does. If it does happen, what
to do, And like picking the friend is making me
think picking the friend and sharing the location is almost
(39:06):
not enough. There almost needs to be conversations that we're
having inside of our communities about this thing ahead of
just in general. Like I said, it's just not something
we talk because you know, people don't let me say
I I don't bring it up because it's a downer conversation.
(39:27):
It's triggering, it's emotional, it's all the things, and so
we just don't talk about it. But clearly, if that
would be okay if rape didn't exist, right, if sexual
assault didn't exist, then yeah, not talking about it isn't detrimental,
but the fact that it exists. And I said to
(39:47):
doctor Martin when I went into my doctor's office, they
were like, oh, this actually is quite common, and we
see this a lot. And so that office sees a
lot of queer and malebodied folks particular, and they're like,
this is quite We see people coming in being roofeed
quite often or some version of it, and so it's like, oh,
(40:07):
that's interesting. You're seeing this a lot. And I actually
don't ever see any conversations happening around it publicly, let
alone I'm not having them privately, and so I'm sorry,
just you're you're making me think, oh, when you identify
that friend. It's also being able to have conversations in
general around this topic at some point.
Speaker 4 (40:29):
Yeah, And I think being able to talk openly about
these experiences of abuse. That's why I'm so grateful for
you for doing this. It's incredibly challenging and difficult to
do it and it's also incredibly important too, so for
people to be able to you know, a lot of
us we think sexual abuse and our mind pictures as
(40:50):
petite cis female, right, But the reality is that people
of all genders, of all skin colors, of all body
shapes and sizes and ability levels experience abuse, and it's
especially important for us to recognize, like, there are no
no boundaries around it, unfortunately and in more ways than one.
(41:11):
But yeah, being able to see different kinds of people
share their stories is incredibly, incredibly important.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
The things that I were holding on to as logically
why this wouldn't happen to me no longer, This is
not rational.
Speaker 4 (41:29):
And yeah, and a lot of people also think of
sexual abuse as being like a physical overpowering too, but
it's just as common for there to be an emotional manipulation,
you know, a psychological manipulation. So even if you know,
you're like, well, they didn't hold me down, or you know,
they didn't pin me against a wall or anything like that,
like that doesn't make it not abusive, you know. So
(41:51):
I heard a little bit of that same kind of
downplaying in your story too when you were telling it
to me. So being able to recognize for yourself, like yeah,
my my size, my body type, my stature, like that
doesn't make me immune from this experience, and that that
doesn't make what happened to me less.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Like less real.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
Oh, I have to say with that doesn't make it
less real. I think that I have been Yeah, I
think I've been trying to make it less real if.
Speaker 4 (42:24):
I'm honest, And of course you have, because who wants
that to be real?
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Right, So it.
Speaker 4 (42:29):
Makes perfect sense to want to downplay it. It's it's
a form of protection, like, let me try to make
this really small, because if it's really small, maybe I
can ignore it or it's not as big and scary.
So it, you know, be gentle with yourself. This is
not a like you know, how dare you do that?
It makes sense doing that, but also being able to, yeah,
(42:50):
to tell yourself like it happened, it mattered, it was real.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
Yeah, and the story. So I worded the story a
couple of days after it happened, and now you and
I and everyone else are talking months later, a few
months later. But I was re listening the story to
the story in preparation to have these conversations. And I
waited till the very last minute, which was this morning,
(43:17):
to do it. And now in this conversation, I'm realizing
there were several times in that story where I say
I'm fine, and I'm like telling the audience I'm fine,
I'm fine, And I think that that's part of me
trying to like make it less real when you know,
in ways I am fine. And I think what I
(43:37):
was trying to express is that, like that I wasn't raped.
Is I think what I was trying to express in
saying I'm fine, but I'm not fine. Yeah, I'm not fine.
I think I think that, and I'm saying, I'm this
(44:00):
happening in real time, so allow this. I'm allowed us
to be messy and I'm perfect. I think I'm really
good at compartmentalizing, and I think I'm really good at
putting things and giving them a rational and then putting
them in their box. But as I've been having these
conversations today and kind of pulling that box out and
(44:21):
being like, let's open this and talk about it, I'm like, oh, wow,
I really am not fine. And part of that is
because I'm not allowing myself to feel as though I
have the space because because the rape didn't happen. There's
part of me that goes, well, I'm I should be okay,
(44:42):
and kind of not taking into consideration that regardless of
whether the rape was took place or not, something did happen.
And it's like fucking with my psychological well being and
I gotta deal with that. I gotta I can't keep
(45:03):
saying I'm fine. I have to actually go through the emotions.
And I don't know if I've if I'm being honest,
I don't know if I've fully done that quite yet.
Speaker 4 (45:13):
So can I ask you what does it feel like
for you when you say I'm not fine?
Speaker 1 (45:22):
I want to cry?
Speaker 4 (45:25):
Mm hmm yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
I like feel myself in this moment trying to like
stay the host of this show. And I think that
that's what I've been doing, is like trying to like
(46:00):
stay composed and address this in a very head space
and and like you know, be of service. Like like
that was like my first instinct was okay, like if
(46:21):
this happened to me, like how can I h support
or protect or do something for other people? And while
you know that's a that's a core value of mine,
I can I can you know, respect that. I think
that I have cut myself out of the the process,
(46:45):
and I've cut myself out of the equation of of
of it and I and I'm realizing that now. So yeah,
when I say I'm not fine, I it becomes real.
I think, I know, it becomes real. It feels quite real.
Speaker 4 (47:04):
Yeah. Yeah, it's a beautiful instinct that you have to
take this horrible experience that you had and immediately think of,
how can I serve others and protect others and.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
Show up for others?
Speaker 4 (47:17):
Like that shows me your heart so much, and at
the same time, like, how do we how can we
make space for protecting you and showing up for you
and taking care of you. Yeah, And I know I
can speak for your all, your community and your listeners
right now and say like, it's okay for you to
(47:37):
not be the host right now. It's okay for you
to not be having it all together and figuring out.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
How to wrap it all up with a nice little bow.
Speaker 4 (47:46):
Yeah we can have this, And I can have the
space right now for you to just to be sitting
with that feeling of like, oh, it's real, it is real.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
Yeah, thank you. I didn't realize I needed this, so
thank you. Thank you. For I can barely look at
you because I'm like, oh, fucking cry, yeah, I I
(48:19):
this is you know, we're recording this at the time
of December, and I'll be done with work in the
next even that though, I'm like, I'll be done with
the next week and then I can deal with this.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
Yeah, you're not planning.
Speaker 4 (48:31):
You're not going to planning when you can have your
little emotional breakdown. No, we're not.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
Oh my god, did you see that in real time?
I did in real time. It's like, okay, cool, I've
done thirteen and then I will unpack this.
Speaker 4 (48:48):
Little box came out on December. Yes, else I No,
this is the This is the perfect time for you
to practice like being messy. It's messy. We can't compartmentalize it.
We can't tuck it away in a little box and
just bring it out when it's convenient. And your experiences,
(49:12):
your experiences matter, and they deserve to They deserve your attention,
your feelings, your experiences deserve your attention in the moments
when they surface. And that's that's really what that I
would encourage you, if I can give you a little
advice here, I would encourage you to like to think of,
like get a picture in your mind of we're gonna
(49:35):
just call it like the version of you that experienced this,
imagine yourself like interacting with them and ask yourself, like
how can I take care of them? What do they
need from me right now? Like this is my little buddy,
Like how can I show up?
Speaker 1 (49:51):
I do have to do that? I do, yeah, I
do have to do that.
Speaker 4 (49:58):
And I encourage you to to use the word And
it's my favorite word. It is literally tattooed on my arm.
It's so important and powerful. But you know, when you're
when you're telling yourself like I'm okay, I'm fine. In
some senses that is true, Like you're a survivor, you're
an incredibly capable person, Like you're still doing things and
(50:19):
being in the world, and like that's a great thing.
And I'm also not okay. Yeah, you know, so like
letting it be an and it doesn't have to be
one or another. It's not like everything's great and totally
fine and I'm not bothered and I'm just going straight
into serving others with it, and it doesn't have to
be like my world is crumbling and everything's terrible and
now all the emotions are gonna, you know, just take
(50:41):
over everything like we can. We can make space for
both things like I am I am fine.
Speaker 1 (50:46):
And and I am not fine. Yeah, that's such a
tenet here on the show and for me, which is
that multiple truths get to coexist. And that's what I'm
hearing with the and is that yes? And that is
that is so true? Thank you so much. It was
really when I decided to do this episode. Look at
(51:07):
me about to cry again. You can't pick your emotional breakdown,
So I'm going to do this. When I decided to
do this episode, I knew that I wanted you to
be part of it because I very much just value
you and your your wisdom and your heart and your energy.
And I knew that this would be a hard episode
(51:28):
and so it was very intentional about who I brought
into the space to do it. And we've like never
met in person, but I'm just pretending.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
Much.
Speaker 1 (51:46):
I love you so much and I'm so grateful. What
it what it reminds me is that I don't want
to say this, which is that you don't have to
(52:09):
like know somebody to be good to them, and that
there is support in the world that there's kindness and
love and goodness in the world and that and I'm
just grateful that you were able to show up for me.
(52:35):
So thank you.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
Welcome.
Speaker 4 (52:39):
It's such an honor, and I really appreciate you trusting
me to be a part of this with you. And
I'm really honored to be able to just be of
support to you. And I really, I really hope you
know how lovable you are. It it doesn't take it
(53:03):
doesn't take much to love you and to care about you,
and I think that's an important lesson for most of
us to learn. Yeah, I'm glad to like sit here
and hold space with you, and your experience matters and
it's real.
Speaker 1 (53:20):
Yeah, well, you know we are hose here, but hose
with heart. So before we part ways, let me speak
(53:42):
to yours. Let me first say this is not a
hose with heart I ever anticipated doing. And maybe that
is my naivea ta my privilege a lot of things.
I'm gonna try not to put judgment on it, but
(54:03):
I I'm gonna go slow with this and I'm gonna
go gently with this. But I felt like these points
were important to call out. Doctor Raquel said they violated
your most safe space, you take your body everywhere, and
(54:25):
that gave a little bit of clarity about you know,
the feeling of the feeling unsettled, the feeling anxious, and
why it's so hard to shake it because it happened
to your body, and your body is everywhere with you.
You can't escape that. It's not like you can put
(54:45):
it down somewhere. You know, we can avoid locations, we
can avoid you know, situations, but you can't avoid your body.
And so needing to be gentle coping can which I
know you've heard we talk about on the show and
I've talked about on SEBSAC And I always credit doctor
Martin for that beautiful gift of a coping kit and
(55:08):
putting in the things that you that you need. And
this is I think for anything, for any part, I
think all of us, no matter what we've experienced, to
have coping kits because life is hard and having those
things that you can rely on or go back to
or or turn to in your time of need is
(55:28):
so important. And you know, it's hard to figure out
what you need to cope when you're in the moment
of needing to cope. So being able to in a
moment of clarity, assess what are the things that make
you feel good, and identify that is really really important. Blame.
You know, I said, if I can blame myself, then
(55:49):
I can control it never happening to me again. And
doctor Martin pointed out, you know obviously that's not it's
not possible, and that there's not rape without a rapist.
That is I think for me, a way to I
(56:11):
don't want to say, get rid of the blame that
I place on myself. You know, it's you know i'm
recording this. I'll give you the date. I'm recording this
on Friday, August first, so you know it's you know,
almost a year, just shy of a year since the
situation happened. And I will let you know that I
(56:32):
I do feel fine in some ways. In some ways
I still don't, but definitely much better than when I
initially sat down to produce this episode. And and you know,
interview these incredible, brilliant minds. But the thing about there's
no rape without rapists allows me to put some of
(56:53):
that blame down. You know that, you know we I
wouldn't any kind of harm that anyone faces, I would
never blame them for that harm. I would blame the perpetrator.
And so in this scenario with me as the person
who has been harmed, why would I blame myself? Why
(57:16):
should I blame myself? So it's hard not to, but
I am releasing that, and of course the power of
so doctor Martin reminds us, you know, when you're feeling
some kind of way or too emotional or expressing your
(57:36):
feelings and it's too much or so keep doing it,
keep speaking, keep expressing, keep healing, and hear doctor Martin's
voice going. So if you start to start to beat
yourself up, doctor Maren, you know, doctor Vanessa Marin has
(57:57):
been such a gift in my life for the last
couple of I would say a couple of years, maybe
two or three years. We've been online buddies, and when
this happened there, you know, like, of course I talked
to my therapist, but there was still, I think, a
(58:19):
shame of talking to people that know me personally, like
in my like day to day life, and there was
a safety I think I found in speaking to her
and reaching out to her. And so anyways, I'm just
thank you, I mean thank you doctor Raquel and doctor Vanessa,
(58:40):
Doctor Emily and doctor Matthew, but doctor Vanessa's was the
first person gave me advice of, you know, speaking about it.
But I also love this, you know, calling a trusted
person and establishing ahead of time that you have a
friend and they have you to call should anything go wrong.
And I think, I think, I think we do this.
Many of us do this. I know women and fems
(59:02):
of course do this, but I also do this with
a lot of my male friends. If you're going on
a date, going and grind to hook up, you know,
drop the location, let me know where you are. I'll
check in, and you know, we do that. And as
I said, sometimes it's in jest, but also there's obviously
a reality underneath it that we're aware of. But now
for me, even that much more aware of how important
(59:25):
that step is, how crucial it is to have have
identified that person or those people to call, right Because
even I can remember being in the porta Potti debating
who I should text, if I should text the group,
or if I should text, and eventually texted this one friend.
(59:46):
But you know, knowing that ahead of time. I'm not
I'm being careful of how I'm phrasing this because I'm
not trying to rewrite what happened or blame myself for
not having done X, Y and C. But I can
imagine and that knowing that ahead of time, who is
this person that should I need help in this particular
(01:00:08):
area of harm? Uh? And I know that there's gonna
be shame and stuff around it. Who who do I?
Who do I? Who do I go to? Having that identified?
When Vanessa said, your size, body type, stature doesn't make
what happened to you less real, Yeah, that's a hard one.
(01:00:31):
I believe that. But again, how I feel for others,
And there are there are like two sides of me.
There's this soft side of me and then there's this
other critical side of me. And so the critical side
of me is the one who is trafficking in the
blame and in the what could you have done better?
(01:00:51):
And it's still your fault or you know, And and
the softer side of me really has to come in
and be like, hey, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no no, no,
we're not doing and that it's very true. I think somebody,
I think my therapist had said, or forgive me if
it was actually in in in one of our guests,
who said, whoever said This to me was like, yes,
(01:01:13):
you're one hundred and eighty pounds, but when you are
roof feed, none of that matters, you know, So that
that that was also freeing when somebody is impaired you
you yes, size don't matter anymore, babe. But more importantly
here sized, body type, statue or whatever doesn't make what
(01:01:35):
happened to you less real. That's important. I'm not fine
being able to say that and express that and go
through these emotions the way I tried to set a
side time hearing listening to that back and be like,
(01:01:56):
oh god, girl, that is that is me to a
t like I'm going to schedule my breakdowns and we
can't do that. Doctor Raquel offers us the power of
So Doctor Vanessa offered us the power of and you know,
I'm I am feeling good today and I'm also not
you know, I am yeah, I'm fine, I'm also not fine, right,
(01:02:19):
Like what is the The two things can be at
once multiple truths get to coexist, we can parallel process.
This is true, And that is also true the power
of and so freeing ourselves from needing to be in
a binary or in a box or have one kind
of feeling. There can be multiple feelings here that can
be rage and sadness and fear, and you might also laugh,
(01:02:44):
right like, all of it might exist. So thank you
so much for listening. We're gonna pause here and we'll
have the other two interviews in our third and final part,
which will come out next week, with doctor Emilina Goski
and doctor Matthew Brinkley, you know, So take your time
(01:03:05):
to breathe. I hope that this was valuable and of
use to you, and and yeah, that's that's my hope.
I hope that it's valuable and useful to you and
that resonates. And if it is, and if any of
this is resonating means something, you know, whether it's something
(01:03:25):
you can articulate clearly or you just need to send
a scratch pad of notes. You can email tell me
something messy at gmail dot com, or you know, to
reach me on substack Brandon Kyle Goodman dot substack dot com. Listen,
this is a lot, and I am just so deeply,
deeply grateful for you for your time, for your presence,
for your energy. Next week that I said, we'll talk
(01:03:46):
to doctor Imlenagoski about what it means to be a
romantic partner or friend of somebody who survives sexual violence,
sexual trauma and how to show up for them. And
we'll also talk to you doctor Matthew Brinkley about how
race plays into this end identity is well and expressing
rage and how do we do that safely? Yeah, okay,
thank you, thank you, thank you for being here, and
(01:04:10):
I'll talk to you next week. Thank you so much
for listening to Tell Me Something Messy. If you all
enjoyed the show, send the episode to someone else who
might like it. Tell Me Something Messy was executive produced
by Ali Perry, Gabrielle Collins, and Yours Truly. Our producer
(01:04:31):
and editor is Vince Dejohnny. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio
and The Outspoken Network, visit the iHeartRadio app or anywhere
you subscribe to your favorite shows.
You know what, this is a safe space to talk
about relationships, love and sex. Now let me tell you
something messy. Hi, welcome back. So this is part two
of three parts that we are doing around the topic
of sexual assault. So the first part I told a
story about something that happened to me back in September
(00:28):
of last year. So if you have the capacity and
the space to listen to that, go ahead. It'll give
you just a little more context about what we're going
to talk about in this episode. But also if you
are not able to for any reason, it's totally totally fine,
and I hope that this episode and the next episode
(00:50):
will still be of value to you. Well, I'm calling
this kind of the education and help section of this
I guess try effecta of episodes. So today we're going
to talk to doctor Raquel Martin and doctor Vanessa Marin.
(01:12):
With doctor Raquel Martin, we're going to get into you know,
what happens the moment after and blame and shame and
where what we do with all of that. And with
doctor Vanessa Maren we will talk about some of that
as well, but also reclaiming your body. So let's start
(01:35):
with doctor Raquel Martin who is a friend to our
show and is a licensed clinical psychologist, professor, and mental
health advocate known for her work centering black mental wellness
and racial trauma. Here is my convo with doctor Raquel.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
I actually kind of want to start with, like, I'm
glad you're okay.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Yeah, it's a shame, I don't even want to go
there yet, but like one glad that you're okay and
that you even had the ability to take the time
to process it. And it's not like an end of
the process. It's it's like, I'm sure there are going
to be times when you are you can be surprised
when like things just come back to you. So I
(02:12):
also want to normalize that for you as well. A
lot of people don't realize when you get out of
the unsafe environment, what they did was violate you, like
your body, and your body is your safe space. So
in an essence, like at times you may feel like,
you know, I'm not in the environment anymore, I don't
understand why I still feel unsafe, and it's like, well,
they violated your most safe space, and you take.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Your body with you everywhere everywhere, So it's also pretty
normal to just at times be like why am I not?
Like what is going on?
Speaker 1 (02:42):
When you feel like just like kind of jittery.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Jittery, that's called hypervigilance. It's also a sign of PTSD
intrusion symptoms when it just hits you like a certain scent.
I used to work at a sexual assault center and
one of the things was sent like perfumes and stuff
like that, like it was a firm No, because the
old factory, it can bring you back in that moment,
(03:08):
So it's a it's.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
A very big thing. I'm so glad you're okay.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
The shame and the guilt are actually very i would say,
very common. One of the activities I do I used
to do with my patients was we work on something.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Called the blame pie.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
And I would ask like, well, if we had to
put what part of this do you feel is your fault,
family member's fault, anyone who you know is sailing in
your life. And the goal is for the blame pie
to be one hundred percent of somebody else, Like I
don't want any percent on you because no matter what,
(03:41):
you were the person who was attacked. But I've never
worked with the patient where there wasn't at least I
would say they would put at least twenty percent of
the blame pie on them, and it's because they feel
shame and guilt. It can be well, I was friends
with this person. Well, the only you wouldn't have rape
about rapists, you know, so like that has nothing to
(04:02):
do with you. Oh, I should have left earlier. Once again,
the wouldn't have the scenario without the other person.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
It's very common. It's it's it's.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Almost sometimes I think people want to reach to something tangible,
like Okay, if I blame myself for this, that means
that I can just control the scenario to make sure
I'll never be in that situation again. So just taking
the responsibility on me, it'll be like, Okay, I did this, this,
and this, I'll never do this, this and this again,
which means this will never happen again, right, Like it'll
never happen again because this is on me, and I
(04:33):
wore that skirt. I'm never gonna wear the skirt again,
so I'm protected. It's it's it's almost like a way
to try to I can control my actions. So I'm
gonna blame me, and then by doing that, I'm only
dealing with that And there's there's no aspect of it
that will ever be your fault.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Like there you it's it's not possible.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
You're saying that, and it's making me even think about
the choice to do this episode I think was part
of my control. It's like, Okay, I can like figure
out out what part of this belongs to me, and
if I could talk about it, then like I can
protect myself and I can help other people protect themselves,
and I can prevent this thing from happening. But of
course there's the fear to admit that, like I can't
(05:12):
prevent this from happening to other people, and I can't
prevent it from happening to myself again. You know, there
are things we can do, But I think that that
is you're you're naming something that I that wasn't conscious
for me, which is that a lot of the shame
and the blame is coming from wanting to protect myself
from it happening again and even thinking about like you know,
(05:33):
the I think it was a week or two weeks later,
like I forced myself to go out because I was like,
I don't want to be defined by this. I don't
want this person to steal my ability to be out
with my friends to be in sex positive spaces, and
so I was like, I'm gonna I'm gonna go out.
(05:54):
Uh and it was it was I was fine, It
was fine. But yeah, there was a hypervigilance for sure
that evening And what can I do differently? And how
am I aware? I think I didn't drink that night.
I think, you know, just like a yeah, trying to
not trying to in some way thinking that I have
(06:15):
the control, that I have the control.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
A lot of my patients who have been assaulted or
had pretty traumatic events happened to them, which is an
assault in itself. I find that as they get older
and there are different scenarios, they often go through power struggles.
And I mentioned the fact that like trauma is the
ultimate thing that stole your choice. So a lot of
(06:38):
times you were going to you know, it took your power,
It took your choice. You are going to just have
like a hypervigilance for anything that may do that. Again,
it took your choice, it took your power. Power struggles
are understandable because even like you mentioned, like I'm going
to control every single thing.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
I'm not going to drink.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
I'm going to have all my faculties and all that, Like,
trauma stole your it made you feel like you were powerless,
it took your choice. And it's actually pretty typical for
people to be like maybe someone who was like, oh,
you know more chill, be.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Like no, I wanted this this in this way.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Yeah, no I'm not I'm not going to this thing
at this specific time. Gabrielle Union mentioned the fact that
she cannot be in any like restaurant or something if
she's not facing the door, like she has to see
the door. It is not a thing for her, and
that makes sense, you know. It's like, it's this is
what I can control. We're going to this restaurant. I
didn't pick the restaurant, but I am going to be
looking at the door.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Of the entire time.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
So it's also normal if you if you feel yourself
feeling more like stringent lately, like just being like no.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Yeah, I want to yeah, yeah, it has it's you know,
I think it's I think I'm not acknowledging. You know.
I recorded the story that the audience heard at the
top of the episode a couple of days after it happened,
and I did that on purpose because I wanted to
be able to remember a lot of it. And you know,
one of the pieces of advice that I got from
(07:57):
the therapist that we're going to talk to, doctor Vanessa
Marin was talking about it helps the process and like
talking about it with people and like getting that processing.
But now it's been a few months since it happened,
now that you and I are recording, and I'm reflecting
on my energy when I'm out, and one I will
say I haven't been out as much, which I'm now recognizing.
(08:21):
And two I think I'm I think I've normalized it,
but there is a I think I've doctor Markell. I
think I've always had a hypervigilance. I was raised by
three Caribbean black women, and now what's like plugged in
is that like from a baby. They were like, no
means no, you make sure that everything, like they were
(08:43):
really training, and I was like, oh, I'm sure that
my of course, my mother and my grandmother and my
godmother probably had some experiences that I don't know about,
but they wanted to raise me in this male body
to make sure that I was respectful to women. And
so my brain has only ever conceived of being the
(09:05):
attacker and making sure that I'm not the attacker and
that I'm not seen as that, and that I make
sure that you know the door's open and the da
da da. But I was never raised to think that
like it could happen to me, not past a certain age, right.
There was always like, hey, if anyone touches you, tell
me when I was little, But after a certain age,
it wasn't that. It was more so like, how are
(09:27):
you the aggressor? And don't be the aggressor, which I'm
very soft and like, so that wasn't no one was
worried about it, but that was definitely the drill in
to I think they wanted to make sure when I
got into the world that I would never be mistaken,
even like, uh, but there's no preparation for oh, this
could happen to you. And I think I got cocky.
(09:50):
That might not be the right word. But just like
I'm six one, I used to be a little skinnier
and smaller. And this is also fascinating to me bodies.
Like I said to my theor once, I was trying
to get bigger, more muscular, but I didn't want to
get too big because I didn't want to become a threat.
Uh like felt like like like what is what is
(10:12):
the appropriate size for my black male body to be
so that I can feel safe because in high school
being skinny, in college, being skinny definitely a target. Like
you know, uh, I'll never forget. I was walking, I
was teaching somewhere and I was I got off the
subway in Brooklyn. Where in Brooklyn was it like Kingsville
(10:33):
or something like that. And I got off the subway
and walked and this guy, black dude walked by me
and said, you fucking faggot out of nowhere, And like
there was that moment where like, oh my god.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Like I might I'm in danger.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
I'm in danger right now. And I'm like in a
neighborhood that is not mine, that is this man who
I've said nothing to is just called me a faggot.
And so I think I downloaded that if I were bigger,
that wouldn't happen. And so here I am in this
bigger body, and I think it was like, yeah, I
get to be the protector. I'm here to protect. And
(11:07):
even like I was there at that night with a
bunch of my friends and I had organized it and
I'm as I said in my story, I always have
the crossbody. I'm the one that has all the emodiums
and the advils and the lube and the like and
the gum. Like that's the role that I've adopted to
protect and I just didn't think that I would need protecting.
(11:28):
And I think that has been the like a part
of the mind fuck. And I'm gonna say something to
you that I haven't processed, but I think that is
part of the shame, is like blaming myself. And I, Okay,
I know logically what we're going to say here, but
(11:48):
let me just say the kind of human thing that
is not fully whatever, which is that I blame myself
for not protecting myself. I feel like shame for not
remembering to protect myself. That's not true. I know I did.
(12:11):
I know I did my best with what I knew.
As you said, like, there's not rape without a rapist,
right like that none of this can take away from
what that person was doing and was plotting to do.
But I think that that is something that I'm holding
is is you know, my mom always telling me watch
your drink, and I felt like I did all those
(12:31):
things and yet and yet here we are and It's like,
how do I make sense of that of being hyper
vigilant before I had to be, and then maybe like
letting my guard down, or just being in a scenario
that I wasn't expecting, which is the scenario of being
with somebody who you said, yeah, I want to fuck
(12:53):
and then they still they still do. The thing just
wasn't wasn't what. I just didn't have that as a
concept at all, as something to worry about.
Speaker 4 (13:05):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
Yeah, it's interesting because when you were talking, I was
thinking as soon as you said, you know, it was
kind of like leading to like I should have known better,
and I'm like, okay, so this is also leading to
the thought process of I'm blaming myself right, yes, because
I wasn't prepared. And it's you know, everyone will say
things like, oh, I should just logically know, and it's
(13:26):
just like listen, someone violating you. You being in a
safe environment where you literally you create this safe space
for people to express themselves and in a way where
they won't be shamed or guilty for being who they are,
and being violated in that space, it's like double triple
quadruple violation, you know, like I created the space, I'm
always open. And not only is this a physical community
(13:48):
where I'm creating this safe space, your hole, entire online
presence and book and all that is about. Like listen,
I'm not here to you can be as message as
you want. I'm not here to judge you.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Yeah, no, just you know, I have some sin be safe.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
You know. It's the same thing I tell my patients,
Like I'm not I don't think everything has to be
a life altering relationships. I'm not going to tell you
what to do. All I'm gonna tell you is have
some be safe, you know, as safe as you can
possibly be. And this is a perfect scenario. You were
as safe as you could have possibly been, and now
you're experiencing these hyper visions because your safe space was violated.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Yeh, and blaming yourself for that. Yeah. Like people use
guilt and shame interchangeably.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
There's there's guilt, which is the thought process of I
did something bad, and they're shame, which is ultimately like
I am bad. Like guilt would be, oh, I I
did something bad, I cust that person out. Shame would
be only a terrible human being with no integrity, integrity
(14:48):
person out, you know. And then there's a lot of
people dealing with toxic shame where they have, you know,
been reared in an environment where they always had to
you know, it was conditional love and no accountability, so
they you know, ultimately feel as though they're unlovable when
you dealing with this, this guilt is really tied to
the action of I should have done better, like what
(15:09):
I did was bad. What you're telling me is I
don't ultimately feel as though just from what you've shared,
and I also follow you on social media so that
you think that you are a bad person. But it
sounds like you were experiencing this guilt of I should
have known better, like I should have done things differently. Yeah,
and of course it's going to take time for you
to get comfortable to a space or even have your
body ultimately taking the message that I did everything I
(15:32):
was supposed to do.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
That person didn't do what they were supposed to do.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
You can know something logically all the time, but it
takes a while for your your body to catch up
with it. People can tell you stuff all the time,
right Someone will tell me, oh, don't freak out, Oh.
Speaker 5 (15:45):
Okay, I'm cured, but tell me not to be anxious.
Oh my god, why did no one tell me not to.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Be anxious before?
Speaker 5 (15:55):
Yeah, I would have been cured if my anxiety decades ago.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
You know, like never in the history of calming down
has telling someone to calm down, calm them down, you know,
like get a grap you know, it's I think it's
under it's of course, it's understandable.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
It's going to take time. We never. We can't choose.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
I think the most difficult part for individuals is, like
we can't choose what our body perceives as a threat.
The only thing we can choose or like control, is
like our responses to it. Like I can't choose.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
I can't.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
I can't control the fact that, like certain scenarios, even
if I don't recognize in my brain that like, oh,
this scenario reminds me.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Of another scenario where I was like unsafe.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
I can't control the fact that, like my heart rate
is increasing and I haven't even caught up to the
fact that, like that's the same kind of tree that
was in the room when I was attacked, right, But
all I can do is control the way I'm responding
to it. I don't know why I'm responding. Yet I
don't know why my heart rate is increased. I don't
know why like I hear, you know, muffled sounds and
stuff because I'm like zoning in. But I know that
when my heart rate increases, I do this. I know
(17:05):
that when I have body tension, I do this. I know,
uh that these are all signs that I feel unsafe,
and when I feel unsafe, my plan is to do this.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
It's interesting because our body can pick up on stuff
before we do.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
It'll just be like you.
Speaker 5 (17:20):
Know, yeah, it's very it's protective, right, and all you
can do is try to have like systems in place
where it's just like now you know my body.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
I'll be like now, now.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Girl, I don't know what's going on, but you know what,
I do know the plan that we have when this
does go on, and like when I exit this environment
or when I get to exit or when I feel
safe again, then I can process and be like what
the freak was that?
Speaker 1 (17:44):
You know?
Speaker 3 (17:45):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Girl, Yeah, there's a there's a quote that's going around
on Instagram that I love, which is like, uh, when
you're basically it's like when your gut activates, get out
of there. You can unpack the details later. It's like
something doesn't feel right, just like remove yourself and you
can unpack the details of that later. You don't have to.
(18:08):
Sometimes we try to go against what our body is feeling,
and our body oftentimes knows what's happening before our mind
really knows.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
Listen, I said this to my students in a class,
like my clinical class, and just being like, you know,
you're really working with your your patients to help them
be the inspector Gadget of themselves.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
And they were like, what sleep your gadget?
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Everything? Don't sleep on instructor Gadget.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
I'm like, so, just to heads up, everyone in this class,
you guys have all failed today.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Don't come back tomorrow. Quite honestly, you.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Brought this on yourself if you were. If you report
me to the dean, I guarantee you they'll be on.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
My side absolutely, because you should know who inspector gadget
is that you.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Are driving us nuts. You know, like, I can't do
this much longer because how you're here in his back
is not inspector Gadget.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
I'm like, oh my god, but you're really you're trying
to know when you're off your baseline, right, So like, yeah,
even like taking the time to be like, okay, so
it's easy.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
People need to know.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
It's easy to get to a tend on like the
anger or frustration or sadness scale when you're waking up
at an eight every day. But if you don't know
your body enough to know where you're at when you're
like a you know, I typically have maybe two negative
thoughts a day.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
This past week, I've had seven a day. Something's wrong. Oh,
you know.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
I typically enjoy this activity and I've been doing it
every single day, but like now I'm feeling like blunted.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
I feel numb to.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
It, like loss of self awareness. It's not there, and
it's hard to get that. If we're you know, we're
not able to slow down. Sometimes overworking is actually a
you know, that's a response to Like as.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Much as I overwork, I don't really have to.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
Key ind you know, what's going on, like because as
soon as it gets quiet or as soon as it
gets silent, I'm here with my thoughts and all of
the thoughts are bad scary, right, So yeah, our body,
I always say, get to a safe space. And one
of the things I work with my patients on is
like we do what's called a coping kit, but if
it's if it's sometimes you can't like leave immediately, Like
(20:20):
that one we put little makeup eggs and it'll be
like I'll do coping kits according to senses. Like it'll
be like, okay, so this is they got a romatherapy
sprayse you love laughteror put that you.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
On in there. Yeah, you know, you know, if I'm
talking about.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Sight, I'll do like calming things or your favorite meme
that no matter what's happening, you look at this meme
and you you basically pee yourself laughing, Like I put
that in there, you know. Like we talk about like
tactile things and I'm like, okay. One of my patients
something that helped them a lot was crocheting because you
got to have the tactile thing of the yarn, but
you also got to like key.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
In on the knots and stuff like that.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
There's that, but then there's also like if you are feeling,
you know, you can ground yourself into It's just very
intricate things. One of my patients, I say, go to
your car. You in the parking lot, you're looking at
the license plate every single letter, like do a name
somebody a name of that letter, Like I just want
you to think, like, okay, so it's a x Z
It's it's alex zebra zion. Okay, all right, keep going,
(21:18):
you know, like what's what's the next license plate?
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Is this this and this?
Speaker 3 (21:21):
Or you know, walk yourself through a routine, you know,
every single step of this routine. Like for me, I
typically walk myself through like the walk home back in
the day. So it's just like, Okay, I'm in this car,
I'm not in this car. If I'm going home, I'm
leaving the school. I gotta make a left off of
the of the school. I make a right, I go
down the hill, I pass that gas station that has
the worst next in life, I walk to more box.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
You know, like you know, like it's grounding.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
You to that moment, bring you back to yourself feel
safe again, and.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Then you can now you could be like what the
freak was that?
Speaker 1 (21:53):
You know, what's happening?
Speaker 2 (22:00):
How do I feel this way?
Speaker 3 (22:02):
And I feel like if you're feeling those moments more often,
especially if you know after this whole thing happened, you
got to revisit your coping kid like you know, you know,
it's as a clinician, like we're only as good as
the tools we take in. We think about it as
like our toolbox. But the toolbox is like the books
I read. The toolbox are like the encounters I've had
with patience, the toolboxes, the podcast I listen to, the toolboxes.
(22:25):
I'm taking in all these perspectives as a clinician, as
a human to try to make sure I'm also able
to then, you know, empathize and be there present with you.
You're you're gonna be the same way when you're dealing
with this, like your toolbox is, You're like, you know, like, Okay,
so last time this skill worked, that skill didn't work,
so we go on to skill two. Two ain't working. Dang,
it took me all the way to skill five before
(22:46):
I actually felt safe again. All Right, we gotta we
gotta figure this out, right, especially if you're feeling that
guilt in that safe space and you're feeling like you
need the whole can trump control piece, this whole entire
aspect of journey of healing and stuff like that, it's
like it's healing. You're never going to be fully healed
(23:07):
when you're more comfortable with yourself and knowing that, like you,
you're getting all the time that you deserve. You're giving
yourself that space. I feel like you you'll get more
comfortable with the third step or the fourth step, or
even if you need my voice in your head saying like,
oh well this took more time. Just hear doctor Martin.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Saying so yes, you know, like people who are you.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
Know, afraid of crying in front of that person? Oh,
this person, they seem uncomfortable with my tears. So who's
weirder the person who has emotions or the person trying
to make you feel uncomfortable for having emotions?
Speaker 2 (23:41):
You know, Yes, just hear me, just hearing my loud what.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
I will hear that, I will now keep and I
will hear that.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
So because it's normal.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
Even you mentioned the whole aspect of like I felt
this need to Like I don't know what's going on,
I still felt the need to protect the other person.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
We're black.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
We have this collective identity, this collective trauma, this automatic
like man still trying to protect people something And that's
just within us as a culture. When you have a
culture of people who have been so harmed by outsiders.
That's why it hurts so much more when the harm
is coming from inside the house, Like that is like
(24:25):
bruh freak.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
We celebrate qualmsa together.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Are you literally what's going on?
Speaker 2 (24:32):
What's happening?
Speaker 3 (24:33):
Like it's it's a it's you know, it's the ultimate disdain.
And like I think a lot of people and this
is why specialize in the black mental health helps, Like
there's so many people who can't understand that, right, Like, well,
why not just call the police? Well, one, we're black.
I don't even think I feel comfortable with the police,
let alone. You know, I am definitely the person who
was the victim. But but then there's the responsibility of
(24:57):
what if something happens to them because of this, right, right,
And that's not that's not to blame you, that's to
blame a system that was created. I don't think it's broken.
I think it works by design, it works how it's
supposed to work. But understanding that fear is understandable, like
the we you know, black people, we do the black
people not like I see black.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
People not all the time.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
A black woman calls me sugar baby, I'm like, oh my.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
God, yes, sister, brother, you know, So.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
It can also be an aspect of like guilt of
just being like, well I did not call the police,
or like yeah, well maybe I should have did things
differently walking through all these scenarios and what you needed
to do to feel safe, that's what you needed to do. Yeah,
there's there's there there shouldn't you know telling yourself that
normalizing your feelings, understanding that like the roots of you
(25:49):
being black or your culture identity is something that like
our fear of the police is justified over policing, not
knowing all of the alternatives.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Police are.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Not the direct sentence of slave patrols, right Like why
it's why would we ever feel.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Comfortable with police officers?
Speaker 3 (26:06):
And honestly, there should be more services in place so
that we don't need to call them, right Like there
are rape centers that are incredibly helpful, and it's it's
even worse that, like the system that's supposed to be
here technically to protect us, we don't even feel comfortable
calling Like that's.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Even that's a that's another violation.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
Like there's the thing I feel unsafe and I don't
even know who I can call, And how freaking unfair.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Is that you know, like how anfair is that?
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Because honestly it sucks.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
That sucks, and going offline, I do need to know
the hospital that you went.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
To that the person did not have resources.
Speaker 5 (26:40):
To be real with you my face like I had
to fix I saw you.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
I was like, Okay, great, that validated me because I
was like when I was like, this is kind of crazy,
isn't it. Yeah, just don't.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
No, that's not appropriate.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
Every single person, not only I mean I train clinicians.
I worked in a sexual assault center where every single
week we had meetings with the DA and also with
the police system to talk about the ways that we
prepare people. And one of the things we do is
share resources, and we also state that like say you
have a binder of resources, you should also every single
month be calling those resources. Because if I give you
a pamphlet and then I call that same number, they
(27:19):
don't answer. You rip up that freaking pamphlet. That's not
a resource anymore. If you also need to check your resources,
so like I mean, just text it to me, T.
I got you, T, because that's absurd. Like everyone should
know the resources of don't call police. Everyone should know
there's this whole thing by the Pratt Institute that they
give their students about like this is, and they do
(27:39):
it according to like what's the issue?
Speaker 2 (27:41):
Is it domestic violence? Is it sexual assault? Is it
you know any other like this? We could possibly call.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
Everyone should know that, especially if like I see this
all the time.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Yeah, I'm sorry, then we should figure this out. You're right,
doctor Martin. Thank you so much for being here. You're
for having this conversation. It was too short. We're going
to do a whole other situation. But I'm just so
grateful for you. This my heart feels that much better.
So thank you.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
I'm grateful for you. I thank you for creating the
spaces that you create. I mean that when I say
therapy is the only path to healing, but you creating
communities where people feel comfortable even just sharing something messy.
You gotta like when you got to think about like
the release that people have from that with like whether
it's reading your book or writing something in your stories
and you actually answer their question or letting them know
(28:34):
that like you like what you like, you don't like
what you don't like. People need to respect that that's
what you deserve. Like liberatory liberation spaces like that those
are healing, like building that community and being able to
do it like in social realms, because there are people
who will never they will never get to meet someone
like you, but they can log.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Into your you know stuff like yeah not because Brandon
said that's some bullshit.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
And yes, and doctor Martin said out.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Yes, you know, we can use the twenty five hour words.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
Well, it seems though your knees are not being respected
and you are allowed to have this all tim you
can be like, so, my feelings are my feelings, period periods.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
I love it. Thank you, doctor Martin.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
So. One of the first people that I reached out
to when this happened and I thought about making an
episode was doctor Vanessa Marin, who was on one of
the very first episodes of the show. And doctor Vanessa
Marin is a licensed sex therapist and author who specializes
in helping couples build stronger emotional and sexual intimacy. She's
(29:53):
incredible and has been such a backbone offline, and so
I wanted to have her on the mic sharing her
wisdom and knowledge with all of us. So here's my
combo with doctor Vanessa. When you've experienced any kind of violation,
you know, how do you take ownership of your body
(30:15):
again and of your sex and how do you feel
sexy again?
Speaker 4 (30:18):
Well, I'm really glad to hear that the tip to
talk about it openly was helpful for you. One of
the worst things that any sort of sexual abuse or
assault causes is makes us feel ashamed, and it makes
us feel like it's our fault. And so because of that,
we don't want to talk about it. We don't want
to tell anybody, and it can even lead to us
(30:41):
not acknowledging to ourselves that that had happened. A lot
of people who have been through these experiences will really
downplay what happened. We'll say it wasn't that bad, it
happened a long time ago. Other people have had it
so much worse than I did. So the act of
talking about it out loud, it forces you to acknowledge
(31:01):
to yourself, like, hey, this happens to me. And it
also is a way to combat the shame. Like shame
thrives in the dark, shame thrives in silence, and when
we can bring it out to the light of day,
when we can share it, of course, just with people
that we trust and love, that starts to peel the
shame away, and it lets us get support from people
(31:22):
who love us and care about us, and can you know,
validate those experiences and hold us in those experiences. So
that's absolutely one of the very first things that I
go to. The second thing that I go to is
talking to yourself about it too, So I kind of
reference this a bit just a second ago. But the
(31:42):
ways that we talk to ourselves about the things that
happen to us are really important too. I'm a big
fan of talking to myself. I'm kind of talking to
myself all day, like walking myself through things like, okay,
you're you're feeling this all right, that's okay, I understand
that it makes sense. So really, you know, talking to
yourself and letting yourself, giving yourself permission to feel whatever
(32:05):
it is that you're feeling, like all that validation is
so incredibly important. And then the third place that I
go to is starting to engage with your body again.
When somebody violates your boundaries, it makes you feel like
your body is not your own. And even you know,
some of the story that you were telling me, like
there was there was a piece of it of you
(32:27):
just kind of like, Okay, I'm just gonna like let
this happen to me, right, And there's a dissociation that
can happen for the vast majority of people who go
through this is our brain kind of realizes, Okay, my
body's here in the moment, there's nothing I can do
about this, but my brain's gonna check out. And so
it creates this real separation between our brains and our bodies.
(32:49):
But all of us like we need to have that integration.
So trying to find ways to like come back home
into your own skin. And this is very simple, but
very things like it could literally just be touching your
own body, and you compare that with the other tip
of like talking to yourself, talking to your body as
you touch it, like very softly.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Very gently.
Speaker 4 (33:11):
It could be some movement like walking around, could be
gentle maybe you feel better like running or doing something
high intensity. It could be baths. It could be like
putting lotion on your skin. Again, like just softly and
gently and with a lot of love. But those three
things are some of the most powerful tools that you can.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Use, I guess. So one of the reasons I wanted
to do this episode is because I really think that
the reason I was able to handle the situation at
all was because I had that conversation with a friend
a few weeks ago who had told me about their experience,
(33:49):
and so there was something downloaded in me to like
know how to react in a certain way, like even
the choosing between in the uber and texting a friend,
like having some cognizance that like okay, because because sometimes
my my apart from like again like my friend in college,
(34:12):
like my most of my relationship to essay, is going
to be through media, right, It's going to be through
you know, a special episode of of some television show,
or through a movie or something. And and uh, I
don't think I always. I think when I'm consuming media,
and a lot of us were consuming media, we're protecting
(34:32):
ourselves in a in a way and so maybe not
downloading it all. And so I think what I'm curious
about here is maybe talking about for that person who's
been or for the survivor what are the next steps
after that thing? Like when I went to the doctor,
you know, it was like if I had come in sooner,
(34:54):
they could have maybe tested my blood to see to
confirm that something was in it, or you know, this
was a little tricky because it was too it's two
of us that are black and male body, so the
police weren't exactly the right choice black and queer male
body to like, calling the police wasn't the That just
wasn't an option. But I'm wondering, like, if we can
(35:16):
maybe talk about what are the options when that happens,
What are the options for the survivor right after, or
what do they need? What do we need to be
thinking about?
Speaker 4 (35:29):
Yeah, and I think we need to just pause first
and take a moment to acknowledge how incredibly fucked that
is that you felt like calling the police, the people
who are supposed ostensibly supposed to be protecting us, that
you felt like that wasn't an option to you, and
so many other people feel like that's not an option
to them because of the color of our skin or
(35:50):
our identity, or what it looks like or who that
other person is. Like, it's sucked up and we need
to recognize that and make space for that. That how
incredibly painful that is, and how much work needs to
be done to make sure of it. That is not
the situation. So I want to I want to acknowledge that.
(36:12):
But in terms of you know, what should we do
immediately after? My best advice is to find somebody trusted
to call and tell as soon as you can, because
when you're going through an experience like that, your brain
is not in a rational place and your brain is
not thinking through Okay, what are the different steps and
(36:35):
when should I go to the hospital, and should I.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Call the police?
Speaker 4 (36:38):
And should I do this?
Speaker 2 (36:38):
And should I?
Speaker 4 (36:39):
You know, there's so it's just impossible to be in
that moment like thinking rationally. And so if you have
somebody that you trust that you can call, which I'm
you know, I'm so glad that you did have somebody
that you could call. But having somebody else where you
can just say something happened and I don't know what to.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Do and can you please help me?
Speaker 4 (36:59):
So in terms of you know, this is also something
that we can all do to prepare ourselves too. It's like,
can you identify a friend that's going to be your buddy?
Can the two of you talk openly about like, hey,
we're going to be there for each other. I'm the
number one person you call, You're the number one person
I call. So you just at least like like you
were saying you kind of had this idea in the
back of your head from that conversation. So at least
(37:22):
being able to have that idea in the back of
your head of oh, this is the person I call
and reminding yourself of that frequently. Maybe it's even you know,
if you're going out to parties, if you're going to
an event, if you're going on a first date, you know,
whatever it is to be able to like check in
with that friend beforehance. You just have it in the
back of your head.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
But that's that's.
Speaker 4 (37:40):
Definitely one of the most important steps that you can take.
And then from there, you know, if you feel and
again this is where it feels so fucked up, but
if you feel safe to call the police that you know,
it can be really important. And going into the hospital
as well, you can try to ask for you know,
(38:01):
do you have people who are trained in dealing with this,
who are you know, have experienced some sensitivity and compassion,
Like you can try to advocate for yourself a little bit,
but again, having that friend to be there can really
be like the best moves having somebody else advocate for
you so you can just focus on being there.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
You're saying that and I realize that, you know, I
have a couple of friends and we are our locations
are shared, and I'll get the messages. Like you know,
I'm going on a grinder hook of if you don't
hear back from me by this time, like you know,
and we say it. It's funny, we say it kind
of and this might be the male privilege because it's
a lot of male friends, but it's kind of said
in jes because there's maybe an expectation and now that
(38:43):
I'm speaking this out loud, like an unconscious expectation. Well,
you're a guy, you're a male body, like you can
handle it if something or nothing will happen to you,
which is obviously not true. But obviously that doesn't make
space for when it does. If it does happen, what
to do, And like picking the friend is making me
think picking the friend and sharing the location is almost
(39:06):
not enough. There almost needs to be conversations that we're
having inside of our communities about this thing ahead of
just in general. Like I said, it's just not something
we talk because you know, people don't let me say
I I don't bring it up because it's a downer conversation.
(39:27):
It's triggering, it's emotional, it's all the things, and so
we just don't talk about it. But clearly, if that
would be okay if rape didn't exist, right, if sexual
assault didn't exist, then yeah, not talking about it isn't detrimental,
but the fact that it exists. And I said to
(39:47):
doctor Martin when I went into my doctor's office, they
were like, oh, this actually is quite common, and we
see this a lot. And so that office sees a
lot of queer and malebodied folks particular, and they're like,
this is quite We see people coming in being roofeed
quite often or some version of it, and so it's like, oh,
(40:07):
that's interesting. You're seeing this a lot. And I actually
don't ever see any conversations happening around it publicly, let
alone I'm not having them privately, and so I'm sorry,
just you're you're making me think, oh, when you identify
that friend. It's also being able to have conversations in
general around this topic at some point.
Speaker 4 (40:29):
Yeah, And I think being able to talk openly about
these experiences of abuse. That's why I'm so grateful for
you for doing this. It's incredibly challenging and difficult to
do it and it's also incredibly important too, so for
people to be able to you know, a lot of
us we think sexual abuse and our mind pictures as
(40:50):
petite cis female, right, But the reality is that people
of all genders, of all skin colors, of all body
shapes and sizes and ability levels experience abuse, and it's
especially important for us to recognize, like, there are no
no boundaries around it, unfortunately and in more ways than one.
(41:11):
But yeah, being able to see different kinds of people
share their stories is incredibly, incredibly important.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
The things that I were holding on to as logically
why this wouldn't happen to me no longer, This is
not rational.
Speaker 4 (41:29):
And yeah, and a lot of people also think of
sexual abuse as being like a physical overpowering too, but
it's just as common for there to be an emotional manipulation,
you know, a psychological manipulation. So even if you know,
you're like, well, they didn't hold me down, or you know,
they didn't pin me against a wall or anything like that,
like that doesn't make it not abusive, you know. So
(41:51):
I heard a little bit of that same kind of
downplaying in your story too when you were telling it
to me. So being able to recognize for yourself, like yeah,
my my size, my body type, my stature, like that
doesn't make me immune from this experience, and that that
doesn't make what happened to me less.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Like less real.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
Oh, I have to say with that doesn't make it
less real. I think that I have been Yeah, I
think I've been trying to make it less real if.
Speaker 4 (42:24):
I'm honest, And of course you have, because who wants
that to be real?
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Right, So it.
Speaker 4 (42:29):
Makes perfect sense to want to downplay it. It's it's
a form of protection, like, let me try to make
this really small, because if it's really small, maybe I
can ignore it or it's not as big and scary.
So it, you know, be gentle with yourself. This is
not a like you know, how dare you do that?
It makes sense doing that, but also being able to, yeah,
(42:50):
to tell yourself like it happened, it mattered, it was real.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
Yeah, and the story. So I worded the story a
couple of days after it happened, and now you and
I and everyone else are talking months later, a few
months later. But I was re listening the story to
the story in preparation to have these conversations. And I
waited till the very last minute, which was this morning,
(43:17):
to do it. And now in this conversation, I'm realizing
there were several times in that story where I say
I'm fine, and I'm like telling the audience I'm fine,
I'm fine, And I think that that's part of me
trying to like make it less real when you know,
in ways I am fine. And I think what I
(43:37):
was trying to express is that, like that I wasn't raped.
Is I think what I was trying to express in
saying I'm fine, but I'm not fine. Yeah, I'm not fine.
I think I think that, and I'm saying, I'm this
(44:00):
happening in real time, so allow this. I'm allowed us
to be messy and I'm perfect. I think I'm really
good at compartmentalizing, and I think I'm really good at
putting things and giving them a rational and then putting
them in their box. But as I've been having these
conversations today and kind of pulling that box out and
(44:21):
being like, let's open this and talk about it, I'm like, oh, wow,
I really am not fine. And part of that is
because I'm not allowing myself to feel as though I
have the space because because the rape didn't happen. There's
part of me that goes, well, I'm I should be okay,
(44:42):
and kind of not taking into consideration that regardless of
whether the rape was took place or not, something did happen.
And it's like fucking with my psychological well being and
I gotta deal with that. I gotta I can't keep
(45:03):
saying I'm fine. I have to actually go through the emotions.
And I don't know if I've if I'm being honest,
I don't know if I've fully done that quite yet.
Speaker 4 (45:13):
So can I ask you what does it feel like
for you when you say I'm not fine?
Speaker 1 (45:22):
I want to cry?
Speaker 4 (45:25):
Mm hmm yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
I like feel myself in this moment trying to like
stay the host of this show. And I think that
that's what I've been doing, is like trying to like
(46:00):
stay composed and address this in a very head space
and and like you know, be of service. Like like
that was like my first instinct was okay, like if
(46:21):
this happened to me, like how can I h support
or protect or do something for other people? And while
you know that's a that's a core value of mine,
I can I can you know, respect that. I think
that I have cut myself out of the the process,
(46:45):
and I've cut myself out of the equation of of
of it and I and I'm realizing that now. So yeah,
when I say I'm not fine, I it becomes real.
I think, I know, it becomes real. It feels quite real.
Speaker 4 (47:04):
Yeah. Yeah, it's a beautiful instinct that you have to
take this horrible experience that you had and immediately think of,
how can I serve others and protect others and.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
Show up for others?
Speaker 4 (47:17):
Like that shows me your heart so much, and at
the same time, like, how do we how can we
make space for protecting you and showing up for you
and taking care of you. Yeah, And I know I
can speak for your all, your community and your listeners
right now and say like, it's okay for you to
(47:37):
not be the host right now. It's okay for you
to not be having it all together and figuring out.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
How to wrap it all up with a nice little bow.
Speaker 4 (47:46):
Yeah we can have this, And I can have the
space right now for you to just to be sitting
with that feeling of like, oh, it's real, it is real.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
Yeah, thank you. I didn't realize I needed this, so
thank you. Thank you. For I can barely look at
you because I'm like, oh, fucking cry, yeah, I I
(48:19):
this is you know, we're recording this at the time
of December, and I'll be done with work in the
next even that though, I'm like, I'll be done with
the next week and then I can deal with this.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
Yeah, you're not planning.
Speaker 4 (48:31):
You're not going to planning when you can have your
little emotional breakdown. No, we're not.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
Oh my god, did you see that in real time?
I did in real time. It's like, okay, cool, I've
done thirteen and then I will unpack this.
Speaker 4 (48:48):
Little box came out on December. Yes, else I No,
this is the This is the perfect time for you
to practice like being messy. It's messy. We can't compartmentalize it.
We can't tuck it away in a little box and
just bring it out when it's convenient. And your experiences,
(49:12):
your experiences matter, and they deserve to They deserve your attention,
your feelings, your experiences deserve your attention in the moments
when they surface. And that's that's really what that I
would encourage you, if I can give you a little
advice here, I would encourage you to like to think of,
like get a picture in your mind of we're gonna
(49:35):
just call it like the version of you that experienced this,
imagine yourself like interacting with them and ask yourself, like
how can I take care of them? What do they
need from me right now? Like this is my little buddy,
Like how can I show up?
Speaker 1 (49:51):
I do have to do that? I do, yeah, I
do have to do that.
Speaker 4 (49:58):
And I encourage you to to use the word And
it's my favorite word. It is literally tattooed on my arm.
It's so important and powerful. But you know, when you're
when you're telling yourself like I'm okay, I'm fine. In
some senses that is true, Like you're a survivor, you're
an incredibly capable person, Like you're still doing things and
(50:19):
being in the world, and like that's a great thing.
And I'm also not okay. Yeah, you know, so like
letting it be an and it doesn't have to be
one or another. It's not like everything's great and totally
fine and I'm not bothered and I'm just going straight
into serving others with it, and it doesn't have to
be like my world is crumbling and everything's terrible and
now all the emotions are gonna, you know, just take
(50:41):
over everything like we can. We can make space for
both things like I am I am fine.
Speaker 1 (50:46):
And and I am not fine. Yeah, that's such a
tenet here on the show and for me, which is
that multiple truths get to coexist. And that's what I'm
hearing with the and is that yes? And that is
that is so true? Thank you so much. It was
really when I decided to do this episode. Look at
(51:07):
me about to cry again. You can't pick your emotional breakdown,
So I'm going to do this. When I decided to
do this episode, I knew that I wanted you to
be part of it because I very much just value
you and your your wisdom and your heart and your energy.
And I knew that this would be a hard episode
(51:28):
and so it was very intentional about who I brought
into the space to do it. And we've like never
met in person, but I'm just pretending.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
Much.
Speaker 1 (51:46):
I love you so much and I'm so grateful. What
it what it reminds me is that I don't want
to say this, which is that you don't have to
(52:09):
like know somebody to be good to them, and that
there is support in the world that there's kindness and
love and goodness in the world and that and I'm
just grateful that you were able to show up for me.
(52:35):
So thank you.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
Welcome.
Speaker 4 (52:39):
It's such an honor, and I really appreciate you trusting
me to be a part of this with you. And
I'm really honored to be able to just be of
support to you. And I really, I really hope you
know how lovable you are. It it doesn't take it
(53:03):
doesn't take much to love you and to care about you,
and I think that's an important lesson for most of
us to learn. Yeah, I'm glad to like sit here
and hold space with you, and your experience matters and
it's real.
Speaker 1 (53:20):
Yeah, well, you know we are hose here, but hose
with heart. So before we part ways, let me speak
(53:42):
to yours. Let me first say this is not a
hose with heart I ever anticipated doing. And maybe that
is my naivea ta my privilege a lot of things.
I'm gonna try not to put judgment on it, but
(54:03):
I I'm gonna go slow with this and I'm gonna
go gently with this. But I felt like these points
were important to call out. Doctor Raquel said they violated
your most safe space, you take your body everywhere, and
(54:25):
that gave a little bit of clarity about you know,
the feeling of the feeling unsettled, the feeling anxious, and
why it's so hard to shake it because it happened
to your body, and your body is everywhere with you.
You can't escape that. It's not like you can put
(54:45):
it down somewhere. You know, we can avoid locations, we
can avoid you know, situations, but you can't avoid your body.
And so needing to be gentle coping can which I
know you've heard we talk about on the show and
I've talked about on SEBSAC And I always credit doctor
Martin for that beautiful gift of a coping kit and
(55:08):
putting in the things that you that you need. And
this is I think for anything, for any part, I
think all of us, no matter what we've experienced, to
have coping kits because life is hard and having those
things that you can rely on or go back to
or or turn to in your time of need is
(55:28):
so important. And you know, it's hard to figure out
what you need to cope when you're in the moment
of needing to cope. So being able to in a
moment of clarity, assess what are the things that make
you feel good, and identify that is really really important. Blame.
You know, I said, if I can blame myself, then
(55:49):
I can control it never happening to me again. And
doctor Martin pointed out, you know obviously that's not it's
not possible, and that there's not rape without a rapist.
That is I think for me, a way to I
(56:11):
don't want to say, get rid of the blame that
I place on myself. You know, it's you know i'm
recording this. I'll give you the date. I'm recording this
on Friday, August first, so you know it's you know,
almost a year, just shy of a year since the
situation happened. And I will let you know that I
(56:32):
I do feel fine in some ways. In some ways
I still don't, but definitely much better than when I
initially sat down to produce this episode. And and you know,
interview these incredible, brilliant minds. But the thing about there's
no rape without rapists allows me to put some of
(56:53):
that blame down. You know that, you know we I
wouldn't any kind of harm that anyone faces, I would
never blame them for that harm. I would blame the perpetrator.
And so in this scenario with me as the person
who has been harmed, why would I blame myself? Why
(57:16):
should I blame myself? So it's hard not to, but
I am releasing that, and of course the power of
so doctor Martin reminds us, you know, when you're feeling
some kind of way or too emotional or expressing your
(57:36):
feelings and it's too much or so keep doing it,
keep speaking, keep expressing, keep healing, and hear doctor Martin's
voice going. So if you start to start to beat
yourself up, doctor Maren, you know, doctor Vanessa Marin has
(57:57):
been such a gift in my life for the last
couple of I would say a couple of years, maybe
two or three years. We've been online buddies, and when
this happened there, you know, like, of course I talked
to my therapist, but there was still, I think, a
(58:19):
shame of talking to people that know me personally, like
in my like day to day life, and there was
a safety I think I found in speaking to her
and reaching out to her. And so anyways, I'm just
thank you, I mean thank you doctor Raquel and doctor Vanessa,
(58:40):
Doctor Emily and doctor Matthew, but doctor Vanessa's was the
first person gave me advice of, you know, speaking about it.
But I also love this, you know, calling a trusted
person and establishing ahead of time that you have a
friend and they have you to call should anything go wrong.
And I think, I think, I think we do this.
Many of us do this. I know women and fems
(59:02):
of course do this, but I also do this with
a lot of my male friends. If you're going on
a date, going and grind to hook up, you know,
drop the location, let me know where you are. I'll
check in, and you know, we do that. And as
I said, sometimes it's in jest, but also there's obviously
a reality underneath it that we're aware of. But now
for me, even that much more aware of how important
(59:25):
that step is, how crucial it is to have have
identified that person or those people to call, right Because
even I can remember being in the porta Potti debating
who I should text, if I should text the group,
or if I should text, and eventually texted this one friend.
(59:46):
But you know, knowing that ahead of time. I'm not
I'm being careful of how I'm phrasing this because I'm
not trying to rewrite what happened or blame myself for
not having done X, Y and C. But I can
imagine and that knowing that ahead of time, who is
this person that should I need help in this particular
(01:00:08):
area of harm? Uh? And I know that there's gonna
be shame and stuff around it. Who who do I?
Who do I? Who do I go to? Having that identified?
When Vanessa said, your size, body type, stature doesn't make
what happened to you less real, Yeah, that's a hard one.
(01:00:31):
I believe that. But again, how I feel for others,
And there are there are like two sides of me.
There's this soft side of me and then there's this
other critical side of me. And so the critical side
of me is the one who is trafficking in the
blame and in the what could you have done better?
(01:00:51):
And it's still your fault or you know, And and
the softer side of me really has to come in
and be like, hey, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no no, no,
we're not doing and that it's very true. I think somebody,
I think my therapist had said, or forgive me if
it was actually in in in one of our guests,
who said, whoever said This to me was like, yes,
(01:01:13):
you're one hundred and eighty pounds, but when you are
roof feed, none of that matters, you know, So that
that that was also freeing when somebody is impaired you
you yes, size don't matter anymore, babe. But more importantly
here sized, body type, statue or whatever doesn't make what
(01:01:35):
happened to you less real. That's important. I'm not fine
being able to say that and express that and go
through these emotions the way I tried to set a
side time hearing listening to that back and be like,
(01:01:56):
oh god, girl, that is that is me to a
t like I'm going to schedule my breakdowns and we
can't do that. Doctor Raquel offers us the power of
So Doctor Vanessa offered us the power of and you know,
I'm I am feeling good today and I'm also not
you know, I am yeah, I'm fine, I'm also not fine, right,
(01:02:19):
Like what is the The two things can be at
once multiple truths get to coexist, we can parallel process.
This is true, And that is also true the power
of and so freeing ourselves from needing to be in
a binary or in a box or have one kind
of feeling. There can be multiple feelings here that can
be rage and sadness and fear, and you might also laugh,
(01:02:44):
right like, all of it might exist. So thank you
so much for listening. We're gonna pause here and we'll
have the other two interviews in our third and final part,
which will come out next week, with doctor Emilina Goski
and doctor Matthew Brinkley, you know, So take your time
(01:03:05):
to breathe. I hope that this was valuable and of
use to you, and and yeah, that's that's my hope.
I hope that it's valuable and useful to you and
that resonates. And if it is, and if any of
this is resonating means something, you know, whether it's something
(01:03:25):
you can articulate clearly or you just need to send
a scratch pad of notes. You can email tell me
something messy at gmail dot com, or you know, to
reach me on substack Brandon Kyle Goodman dot substack dot com. Listen,
this is a lot, and I am just so deeply,
deeply grateful for you for your time, for your presence,
for your energy. Next week that I said, we'll talk
(01:03:46):
to doctor Imlenagoski about what it means to be a
romantic partner or friend of somebody who survives sexual violence,
sexual trauma and how to show up for them. And
we'll also talk to you doctor Matthew Brinkley about how
race plays into this end identity is well and expressing
rage and how do we do that safely? Yeah, okay,
thank you, thank you, thank you for being here, and
(01:04:10):
I'll talk to you next week. Thank you so much
for listening to Tell Me Something Messy. If you all
enjoyed the show, send the episode to someone else who
might like it. Tell Me Something Messy was executive produced
by Ali Perry, Gabrielle Collins, and Yours Truly. Our producer
(01:04:31):
and editor is Vince Dejohnny. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio
and The Outspoken Network, visit the iHeartRadio app or anywhere
you subscribe to your favorite shows.
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