January 16, 2025 • 62 mins
Famed author and sex educator, Emily Nagoski, joins the show to break down some deep messages about love and self acceptance that causes Brandon to say, "I want to live like that on my best day." But don't worry, there are plenty of messy moments shared to fill the conversation with laughter as well!
Find Emily on IG @enagoski
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ashamed of your body and guilty about everything related to sex?
Would that be okay?
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Nobody would say yes, right? They had been off with
the choice, right right.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
So like that stuff just got put in our brains
and it's there, flourishing, flourishing.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
You know what we do here, destroy shame around sex
by talking about sex. Now, let me tell you something messy. Hi,
how are you? How's it going? How's your heart? If
you're new to the pod, this is not how we
usually start the show. And if you've been with me
for a minute, you know that we always start with
a messy story or we debunk a messy myth, and
(00:46):
we do messy mail, and then we have our guests,
and you know, I like to start the show off
with a lot of joy and laughter and fun. And
that's not how we're starting this episode because things have
happened in the last week. I'm based in Los Angeles
(01:06):
and so as you can imagine, the last week has
been a nightmare. And that is putting it lightly. I
do not think that I have cried or had this
many breakdowns in my entire life that I have in
the last week. So here's the deal. I'm not going
(01:31):
to tell a messy story. Today, I'm just going to
kind of introduce the interview because I also recognize that,
you know, people tune into the show for a little
bit of escape. You know, you know you want a
little escape from what may be happening, or you know
some of you might actually also be from Los Angeles.
I have people in Los Angeles, and so I want
(01:52):
to be conscious about not triggering as people are healing
and navigating what's going on in our city and also
in our country, in the world at large. So I
will at the end of the pod, after Hose of Heart,
I will talk about this experience what I can talk
about so far and share with you how I'm doing
(02:14):
and how we're doing, my partners and I and all
the things that I have learned thus far with the
caveat that it will be imperfect and messy and it
will evolve over time, and I'm sure I will. You know,
we're still in it as I As I am recording this,
I'm recording this outside of LA because we decided to
(02:37):
leave again because where our apartment is is a really
prime zone for issues, if you will, So we decided
to just best as more wins. We're coming in to
get out the city. So as you can imagine, my
emotions are all over the place. But the episode today
(02:58):
is one that I record did a few months ago,
and it means everything to me because it's with Emily Nagoski,
who is the author of Come As You Are and
is an incredible, incredible voice in this space of sex
and identity and pleasure and somebody who I look up to.
(03:21):
And the fact that she agreed to do the show,
I mean, I can't tell you the ways in which
we were, like me and my producer Vincent, and you know,
we're just like so geeked out about it, and I've
been talking about it. I think we reached out to
her like last June, and we're finally able to record
with her sometime in September, and so to finally be
(03:44):
able to share it with you is just a dream
come true. And so let's just how about we just
how about we just go right into it and hopefully
next week or if not next week, by the end
of this month, the top of next month, we'll be
back to our regular kind of openings and stuff. But
(04:08):
you know, me, I really value acknowledging where we are
individually and collectively and not trying to deny the emotions
that are are are prevalent, not trying to numb it,
but actually allow it to be. And so my choice
to not try and come up with a messy story
(04:31):
or even talk about a messy story because it just
is not where my energy is is how I am
taking care of myself and I hope taking care of
you too, giving you space to feel how you feel,
whether it's about the fires because you're experiencing it, or
something else in your life. We do not have to
(04:54):
Business as usual is not a thing. Okay, it's something
that I reject, especially as the world continues to do
so many things that are hard to witness and feel
an experience. It is just business as usual, I think
(05:15):
is harming us. And so let's acknowledge where we are
and work from that place and be free from that place. So, uh,
shall we jump into the interview? Baby? You know what
that means. It is time for a guest. Now, while
they get situated, we'll get our messy. Kiki started with
a how manifesto repeat after me aloud or in your head.
(05:39):
Grant me the serenity to unpack my shame, the courage
to heal, the wisdom to that sex is not just
about penetration, the audacity to advocate for my pleasure and boundaries,
the strength to not call my ex that fuck boy,
fuck girl, or fuck bay, for it is better to
masturbate by myself in peace than to let someone play
in my mother fuck face. Let the community say, oh helujah,
(06:05):
I am so excited to have Emily Nagowski on the show.
Emily Nagoski is the award winning author of the New
York Times best selling Come As You Are and Come Together,
as well as the Come As You Are Workbook, and
co author with her sister Amelia, of the New York
Times bestseller Burnout, The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle.
She earned an MS in Counseling and a PhD in
(06:28):
Health behavior, both from Indiana University, with clinical and research
training at the Kinsey Institute. Now, she combines sex education
and stress education to teach women to live with confidence
and joy inside their bodies. She lives in Massachusetts with
two dogs, a cat, and a cartoonist. Y'all please make
(06:48):
some noise for Emily Nagoski. Welcome, Emily.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Hello, I'm so excited to be talking to you.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
I'm so like, literally, I was selling you before we
start that I've been listening to you the audible and
so you've been in my head and I'm just i
might have a melt down talking to you now because
I'm just so excited. I also, I like, just got
a haircut. I tell my barber, I was like, you
have to read this book. I think that everyone has
to read this book. I don't like, I know that
(07:17):
the book really and we'll talk about this everybody. We'll
get into it. It centers around women, but I just
feel like everybody should be reading. Come as you are
and come together because the information is invaluable. So thank
you for writing it first and force so much. Yeah,
all right, So before we get started, we have a
couple what we call our messy mandates, so things get
to be unprocessed. Any thoughts or opinions shared have the
(07:40):
right to shift or change today, tomorrow or ten years
from now. And if during our little messy key key
something feels too personal or unintentionally offends, we use the
safe word foosball, which will give us a second or
a chance to pivot or a jest or addressed accordingly.
Sound good, sounds great? Beautiful. Want to start with a lube.
It's like an icebreaker. But you know, absolutely all right,
(08:05):
So let's play a game of fuck Mary or block.
We don't kill here, we just do the blocking. Okay,
So fuck Mary or block? Verbal play, food play, nipple play.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
You know I'm a writer, it's gonna be verbal play
is married.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Yeah, yeah, I would.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
I would totally food play, which yes, nothing against nipples,
yeah yeah, if but I could live without it?
Speaker 3 (08:32):
Oh could I live without nipples? I mean, I love
my I love God, I love a pair of nipples,
and I love having my nipples played with. But I
also need to hear, like you gotta talk to me.
So I'm gonna I'm a writer as well, so I'm
a verbal I'm gonna marry the verbal. I'm going to
nipples or food. Nipples are food.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
I love food and food is so fun to play with.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
I see, I don't have as much experience playing with
the food, and this is what I need to get into.
So for the for the sheer fact that I don't
have as much experience playing with food, I'll block it
because I know that I know what are good to me.
I know nipples are good to me. All fucked the nipples.
But I do want to get into what how does
one introduce themselves to food play? Like, what is the
best way to start? I was talking to Taylor Tomlinson
(09:17):
and we were talking about do you start with like
mac and che Well, somebody actually wrote in and said
they ate ice cream out of somebody's booty hole and
we were like, wow, that sounds exciting and messy.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
It's not where I would start.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
Okay, t got it. Would you start?
Speaker 1 (09:35):
So, like, you start somewhere where you're not going to
be challenged? Uh huh? And anal stuff is a challenge
for a lot of people. If you don't feel comfortable
around food, you may not feel comfortable around butts. Yeah,
so start with uh, non genital.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Locations for the food, Okay.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
And also start with food. One of the reasons I
think ice cream is actually good is that you've got
temperature that you can play with, and if you're a student,
temperature play, ice cream is great for that. You can
also do temperature play with things that are warm. Don't
go too sticky, though, so like hot fudge, real sticky,
difficult to clean up, leaves you feeling regret because of
(10:14):
how much laundry.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
There is, Yes, that does sound I know my brain
is already like, where's the detergent? That's so much?
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Yeah, there's a lot of laundry involved in food play.
So you want to start with something that is not
quite so like literally messy.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
I love that. Learn something new, okay, last one? Fuck Mary,
block spanking, hair pulling, biting.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
This is so complicated because like biting, where which hair?
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Yes? Yes, fair which hair? Okay? Spanking and can they spank? Well,
it's your most ideal, it's your the best spanker. It's
wherever you want the hair to be. Best situation, yes, yeah, yeah,
the best version of the situation, the most pleasurable version
of it.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Again, the stakes are so high. What if I get
it wrong?
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Oh my god, please don't this up.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Okay, I would probably, I would probably since it's the
one I forgot. I would probably block biting, okay, probably
fuck hair pulling and Mary spanking.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Ooh, I actually think I'm the same with you. I
would marry spanking. I would fuck hair pulling because you
have to do it right. And I would block the
biting only because I don't know I've experienced it, but
like I haven't experienced it to the to the degree
that I know that some people experience pleasure from.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
It because it leaves a mark.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
That's fair. That's fair. And people don't even know what
you're doing.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
I went through piggys when I was in high school,
and you're like.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
I don't need to we don't need to know, we
don't need to know. Hey, Emily, you won the game.
You won, you got an A plus and you win
my unconditional love. It is really the stakes are high,
but the rewards are higher. Do you know.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
You know what? Just a gold star is all I need?
Speaker 3 (12:02):
Just a gold stars. I'm sending you a scratch and
sniffstick car because those were the fuzzy texture. They're the best.
Ye they're the best, y'all. If you're listening, you are listening, obviously, Phileas.
Feel free to send your blue breaker prompt or messy
stories to tell me something messy at gmail dot com.
(12:22):
Speaking of which, Emily, can you tell me something messy?
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Okay? So, one of the things I talk about a
lot is that there's a difference between dealing with the
stress in your body and solving the problem that caused
the stress in the first place, Like the stress is physiological.
You have to do something with your body in order
to process the stress, to transition out of the stress
(12:51):
state into a relaxation state, which is almost always going
to be different from the thing that you do to
solve the problem that activated the stress in the first place. So,
for example, if you are at work and your boss
says something that like activates your stress response, where you
want to like reach across the desk and throttle that person, Like,
(13:13):
You're not going to do that. You're going to behave yourself.
You're going to say thank you, thank you so much
for that feedback, and then and then you're going to
go for a run, or lift weights or just like
jump up and down in the parking lot and do
a primal scream. Right, Yes, So that's the difference between
dealing with the problem versus dealing with the stress. Crying
(13:35):
is another example of like a thing that like it
doesn't solve the problem, but it can absolutely deal with
the stress in your body so that you feel well
enough to be able to deal with the problem itself.
All of this is to set up that there has
in my life been a circumstance where crying absolutely was
the necessary part of the solution, and it is. This
(13:59):
was more than twe years ago. I was in grad
school and I was with someone who, uh it would
I would learn later, was still in love with their ex.
And their ex I knew she's this wonderful person that
had apparently done a really good job of training this
(14:21):
man in oral sex. Turns out this person who are like,
I really liked this this I knew the ex enjoyed
her as a person. But it turns out that what
she likes with oral sex and what I like with
oral sex are basically opposite.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
God, not the same. Not the same, got it?
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yeah? And so this partner, who has been well trained
by the X, continues to do to me what he
was trained to do with hard And as I came
to understand this, I did all the like grown up,
I've been a sex educator for ten years. Stuff that
you do to like, try to communicate effectively about what
(15:00):
I want and like, Like I am skilled at communicating
in a wide variety of ways about what I want
and like both like in an encouraging way in the
middle of it, and like later on, like, hey, so
when you did that thing I've said before that what
I really like, is this kind of sensation And I
know that when you do this, I know that, like,
your previous partner really liked this other kind of sensation
(15:21):
and that's not it for me. And it gradually got
to like and when you continue to do it that way,
it makes me feel like you wish you were or
you imagine you are still in bed with this other person.
And I eventually had to cry in the middle of
oral sex in order to communicate in a way that
(15:44):
this person could hear that what they were doing made
me feel like they were not having sex with me,
they were having sex with somebody.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
To me.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
So almost always, my advice is that, like, crying is
not effective and helpful, but sometimes sometimes crying he was
effective and helpful, And like, I want to be a
person who has never had to cry in order to
like get the oral sex I want.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Yeah, yeah, but that is not the life I've lived.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
So did it change? Did it get better? It?
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Did it worked?
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Wow?
Speaker 1 (16:15):
I got rewarded.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
You catch a reward. You've tried all the tactics, and
the final tactic was the crying, which.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
I didn't want to do because it felt manipulative. Because
I was able not to cry, but I was like
fighting tears and I was like, you know what.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
Fuck this, fuckett, let this release it. I'm not going
to release the stress.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Yeah, I'm gonna release the stress. It's going to impact him.
And uh like he may feel manipulated, but like I
have had, this has been weeks.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
Yes, listen, have you tried all the tactics and then
you're like it's not working? Then I feel like you
pull out the red card, the cry card, that's right,
and make it happen. Wait have you ever have you
cried during sex in a you know, transformative transformation? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (17:04):
So many times?
Speaker 3 (17:05):
Yeah, yeah, what happened the first time? Because I only
experienced that for the first time a couple of years ago,
and I remember, like it was with my husband, and
I remember like being so confused by it because I
didn't know that you could crush because I associate crying
with bad things or hav any and the sad things
or have stress. Yes, so crying during like sex was
(17:25):
just like, wait, what what are all these emotions? Did
when it happened for you? Did you understand that it
was possible to cry during sex or was it a
new sensation or what was the experience.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
I am extra sensitive to my body sensations, so I
have had a meditation practice since I was fifteen. I'm
like super connected and engaged with my own body and
its sensations and emotions, and I have a really non
judgmental approach to all of my internal experiences.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Yeah, so which helped.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Boy, you want to have great sex, and meditation practice
completely helps with.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
That agreed agreat. Guess. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
It supper helps because it means that you can be
aware of the sensations happening in your body, can be
aware of what's going on with your partner. You can
tune in really finely and deeply to what's going on
with your partner. Yeah, which is like that fine tune
attention to your partners. How you get to simultaneous orgasms,
which isn't like a goal anybody needs to have, but
(18:21):
it sure is fun. Yes, And that is the circumstance
where I had my first like crying orgasm, like ugly,
not dripping, like mid orgasm, just like wrapping every limb
I have around my partner and like he's sobbing too.
And I was nineteen what yeah, wow, yeah, wow.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
You were able to have that kind of moment at
nineteen Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Years of a regular meditation practice in Wow, and this
is only my second partner.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
That's incredible.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Let me say that my first partner was like abusive
and terrible. Yeah, so I learned fast. By the time
I got to my second partner, I was like solving
orgasm quality. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Yeah, abusive partners. Will you know I was in before
my husband. I was in an emotional abusive relationship for
about two years. And one thing I will say is
when you maybe it's not true all the time, but
like when you are out of that, when you find
your way out of that, you get tuned in real quick.
We had like the Spidey senses out of I think
(19:33):
defense and protection, but the Spidey senses really raise up
because you're like, oh, I'm not trying to repeat that again,
and it makes you have to think. I think it
made me curious about who I am and what my
body does and what my what my personhood does. It
just made me have to be far more curious because
(19:54):
it was like, oh, I found myself dependent on this
person in a way that I don't want to ever
be dependent again. And so it just like I don't know,
it forces you to reflect and for better or worse,
I think get in touch with your body, which that
yeah makes And yet it.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Was more than thirty years ago for me and my
uh predator radar. Yeah, Like I mean I can tell
from seeing somebody on television.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
Yeah, like, oh it's not a good person. Yeah you can.
It's funny, you can. You can smell it, Like once
you're tuned in, You're.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Like, yeah, once you have the like tingly spidy sense,
like you said, like, it doesn't go away, because how's
it one trial learning? Like, once you have the experience
once and you recognize it for what it is, and
you're like, I'm never gonna get in that position ever again. Yeah,
once you get there, like from a distance, you can
(20:46):
spot that person so that you never get so close
that you get pulled in again.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
I couldn't agree more. You know what this makes me
want to actually zoom out a little bit, which is
you've had this transfer the transformational crime sex at nineteen,
You've written this fantastic book that, by the way I
do this thing on this podcast came out of me
doing this Instagram series called Messy Wendays where I would
tell people to tell me something good or messy, And
(21:11):
so we were just always talking about sex every Monday
on Instagram and your book would be one of the
books that would constantly come up and people are like,
oh my god, you have to read it. Come as
you are, because the whole thing was no judgment, no shame.
How do we talk about our bodies without judgment, without shame?
And you do such an incredible job in your book
of approaching that not just saying don't be judgmental, but
this is how you do it. But I guess I'm
curious how you even decided to write a book and
(21:36):
liberate people to themselves. Like, what was it that happened
for you that was like, Oh, this information needs to
get out there. People need to know their bodies.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
So I'm born and raised in Delaware, which here's my
actual humble brag. Delaware is such a small state that
my tenth grade English teacher was doctor Jill Biden.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
Whoa because okay, wow.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
So so I was a big old nerd. I was
like honors classes and all that stuff. And I knew
when I got to college, went to University of Delaware,
that I was going to be going to grad school
though I had no idea for what. So I knew
I needed some volunteer work on my resume to look
like a good candidate for grad school. And a guy
on my floor was pre med and he said, come
be a pure health educator with me. And I was like,
(22:19):
I like health, why not? So I did. I got
trained to go into residence halls to talk about condom's
contraception and consent. And I should say, like, this is
my first year in college. I'm eighteen, So at the
same time that I'm being trained to talk about these ideas,
this is the same time that I'm having this abusive
relationship the first year in college, which maybe I should
(22:40):
attribute part of why my second relationship was so vastly
much better is because I had the good fortune of
being formally trained in like sex education and communication skills.
Right with one year of that training under my belt,
I was already much better at identifying good dynamics and
communicating effectively and allowing myself to be in connection during
(23:05):
a sexual experience. So I started my training as a
sex educator like as soon as I got to college,
I got a master's degree in counseling psychology. I started
that thinking I would be a sex therapist, realized about
halfway through, I do not have the magical thing that
some people have to sit with clients and be.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
Like, yeah, what is that like for you?
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Yeah, but I am a woman who likes to be
in charge of things. And so I stayed in school
and got a PhD in public health, concentrating in all
of these in human sexuality. Uh So, my got a
job at Smith College as the director of Wellness Education,
where I taught a class called Women's Sexuality. The first
semester that I taught that class was very intense, and
(23:53):
my last question on the final exam was just tell
me one important thing you learned. It can be anything
at all. Just take the question seriously and you will
get the two points. Because they, like me, really took
it seriously and they needed the points.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
They wanted to go star my age right.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
And I thought they were going to write things like, oh,
some specific piece of the science like arousalkno concordance. They
were going to write about attachment theory or whatever. And instead,
out of one hundred and eighty seven students, more than
half of them wrote, I learned I'm normal. I'm normal,
I'm not broken. There's nothing wrong with me just because
I'm different from other people. I can trust my body
(24:33):
because I know I'm normal. I don't know if you've
ever graded final exams, but it is not usually like this.
I was sitting in my office grading with tears in
my eyes.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
I was going to say, you gotta cry when you
read that.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Yeah. It was overwhelming, and I wanted to do it again. Yeah,
and I wanted to do it at a larger scale
and in a way that could reach people who were
not at Smith College.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
And that's the day I decided to come as you
are four and a half years later.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
I have chills hearing that, because I think that that
is why why I'm screaming your book to anyone who
will And you don't need my help, like I know
a lot of people have it, but the additional additional people,
especially you know, queer folks men. I'm like, everybody, read
this book because you will learn that you're normal. Because
I think the thing that I've experienced in doing this
work is people feel like they are alone or that
(25:26):
they are the suffering is that they feel like they
should be something that they're not. And at the end
of your book, you which I've been saying for the
last couple of days to anyone who will listen, is
about the map versus the terrain. Yeah, because that felt
so important to me. And will you actually talk about
that concept. I'll let you break it down for the listeners.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
Sure. So a map is a portrait or an image
or a representation of something that actually exists. And if
you're following a map, like if you're walking along a
trail through a forest, following the trail on the forest,
and the trail goes away in front of you, and
you're like, but it says in the map it's right here.
You can either decide that like, the map is wrong,
(26:07):
that's not where the trail is and you're gonna need
to find a different path. Or you can be like, no, no, no,
the trail must be here, And so you're like tramping through, struggling,
getting more and more lost because you believe it. Surely,
if the choice is between the map being wrong and
you being wrong, I must be wrong. The map must
be right. It must be me that's wrong and broken,
(26:28):
and like the map says the trail is here, the
map must be right, and there's something wrong with me.
Every single time you have a script. If you have
a script in your head about who you're supposed to
be as a sexual person, what sex is supposed to
feel like for you, who your partner is supposed to be,
or what your relationships are supposed to be like if
there's a breakdown between the map you have in your
(26:49):
head and what's actually true for you, what's actually true
for you is what's correct, and the map is fucking
wrong every time.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Yeah, like realizing the map is wrong and you don't
have to fit the map, like trust the terrain, trust
your experience, trust that if something feels off or something
feels good like that is that's what's right, not what
you've been told you should you should be, or want
or desire. And I think that that's so liberating. And
the reason I think your book is also c liberating
(27:17):
is because for me, on my sexual journey, it's been
having to accept who I am and accept that I
do not respond in the ways that maybe my partners
do or in the way that gay men have and like,
and I've felt like, well, I'm just marching to my
own drum, and your book really just actually affirmed all
(27:39):
of it. And so there was there was like a
breath because it's like, oh, I'm just like you know,
how fuck ever, fuck what everybody else says, and I'm
just being me and like this is how I like
sex and whatever. But then to have your book be
like no, scientifically, yeah you're yeah, fuck what everybody else says.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
And they change across their lifespan.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Yeah, yeah, it's it was so liberating. I'm wondering, like,
what is maybe the most most is ah won't be
the right word, but what are what are some moments
or some interactions with readers that you've had that have
really kind of been long lasting and touching for you?
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Oh? So many. I did an event in Boston where
a woman in her seventies told me that a few
weeks ago she had had her first orgasm. Oh wow,
So I it's official. It's never too late.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
It's never too late. I please say that again because
I need because I need people to hear this. It's
never too.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Late literally literally until you're actually dead. It's never too late.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
And everybody, everybody, regardless of the age of your body,
regardless of the shape, size, structure ability of your body,
everybody deserves access to to ecstatic pleasure. And has the
capacity to access ecstatic pleasure.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
Everybody, like, what's the first step towards you're on your
path to ecstatic pleasure? If somebody's listening to like, I
don't know what I'm doing, what's that first time.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
I'm gonna say, it's gonna like even I would be
pissed off with this answer.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Okay, everyone braced yourself.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Mindfulness, mindfulness, fucking mindfulness practice, I know. So what I
really mean is learning to be non judgmentally aware of
your own internal experience. Because chances are, unless you were
raised in some extraordinary place that I have never been
(29:47):
to or heard of, you were raised in a way
that taught you to feel judgmental and ashamed of a
whole lot of your internal experience. And becoming aware first
of all of the experience itself, and then becoming aware
of the judgment your brain imposes on those experiences, yeah,
(30:10):
is a necessary first step to making a choice about
whether or not you want to keep those judgments or
if you want to swap them out for a non judgmental, accepting,
or even loving attitude toward your internal experience.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
When you put it like that, it feels I know,
it's not simple, but it does feel far simpler because
it's like, what story do you want to choose to believe? Yeah,
we're forced. There's so many stories forced onto us about
our bodies and our experiences and what they should be
and shoulds and shouldn'ts and this and that and you
should be like that and not like that, and we've
chosen to believe it, you know, by default. And so
(30:49):
I think there's the mindfulness is waking up and saying, well,
which stories have I chosen to adopt about my body,
about my pleasure? And can I, as you said, swap
them out? And can I choose something else? Can I
choose something softer?
Speaker 1 (31:02):
And I think it's not a choice until you have
the awareness because like these ideas, it's not like somebody
waited until you were old enough to understand before they asked, like, hey,
would be okay with you if I taught you to
feel ashamed of your body and guilty about everything related
to sex, would that be okay? Nobody would say yes?
Speaker 3 (31:21):
Right?
Speaker 2 (31:21):
They had been off with the choice, right, right, So.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Like that stuff just got put in our brains and
it's there, flourishing, flourishing, and until we recognize that it's there,
then we have a choice. Yes, oh this the like this,
like self hatred I've been experiencing all these years. That's
not something I have to feel.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
That's a key component, like to even recognize that you
are experiencing that before you can make the shift.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
That there is a different experience that's available if you
are interested in trying out something new.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
It's being radically honest with yourself about how you feel
about yourself, which is a scary thing to do. Right.
If I think about years before mindfulness or the pursuit
of self love, there's a lot of sadness at how
I thought about myself. Yes, a lot of you know, oof,
(32:18):
like the years, the years, the decades of beating down
on myself. And in the.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Business world they call it opportunity cost. Yes, like all
the things you could have had if you hadn't spent
all those years beating the shit out of yourself. Yes,
Like all the pain you could have avoided. It's actually
one of the key ingredients in hateful people is that
they hate themselves. They're totally married to the idea that
(32:49):
they deserve to be hated for those things. And so
to see someone who walks around the world loving themselves
for having this trait. Wow, that the hateful person.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Believes they deserve to be hated for, Like.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
How fucking dare you? I have to actually eliminate your existence.
I have to shame and judge you in public so
that everybody knows that I understand that that is shameful
and no one should be like that. And either I'm
gonna hide it if it's something that can be hidden,
or I'm going to like advertise that I know that
(33:25):
this thing that I cannot hide about myself is shameful,
like I already know, so, like you don't have to
judge me or beat me up because I'm like the
thing I'm thinking about is fatness. Like I'm a good
fat I'm exercising and I am eating a salad, And
you don't need to judge in shame me, because trust me,
I already judge in shame myself. And that's why I'm
gonna judge in shame and excoriate all the fat people
(33:48):
walking around the world who love themselves. I cannot tolerate
the idea that this is this is me in the
voice of a person who hates themselves. I cannot tolerate
the idea that they're is an alternative world where I'm
allowed to exist and be kind to myself and experience
pleasure and joy in a body that I have been
(34:09):
judging and beating up for decades. Yeah, does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (34:14):
It absolutely makes sense. The hatred has so much of
a how dare you? Yes? But really what you're mad
at is is the liberation, because it's like, well, I've lost, Yes,
I've lost this many years fighting myself over having this
body or whatever. This is how dare you love yourself
and be so free?
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Dare you be free?
Speaker 3 (34:35):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (34:35):
I cannot allow you to be free because then my
cage that I have built around myself is I've been
trapped all this time and I could have been free.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
Absolutely, I trap myself in this cage, and that's it.
That's a Well, Interestingly, maybe.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
I want to like not have it be too individualistic,
because like, let's see that the world puts you in
that case.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
That's what I'm saying. The world puts you in the
case you can get out exactly. It's that that's the key, Like,
the world puts you in the cage. But did you
lock yourself in? At what point did you lock yourself
in that cage and say Okay, this is where I'm at,
and everybody needs to be in their cage, as opposed
to seeing people free and go oh, I can get
free too. Yes, again, which story are you choosing to pick?
(35:17):
It's such a fascinating it's but it's difficult because it
requires and I think that this is just a societal
thing and a cultural thing. We have a hard time
one holding space for multiple truths. We have a hard
time grieving and mourning. And so there's there's a level
which I think you do so beautifully in the book
where you say I'm so sorry that the world told
you these things, And so there is a grief and
(35:39):
a mourning for the time lost that you spent beating
yourself up or ignoring yourself or not going places because
you felt like you were.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
We're not having access to like simple basic truths about
like what's true about like sexual bodies, what's true about tunitles,
what's true about how our brain processes sexual information? Like
of course people feel shitty if they don't have access
to basic information and the idea that they are allowed
that who they are as a sexual person is someone
(36:07):
worth being.
Speaker 3 (36:08):
Who they are as. A sexual person is someone worth
being who can I sit in this for a second
with you? Yeah, that is revolutionary if you can get there,
like if you can feel that, Yeah, that is revolutionary.
Because I think that I don't know if this will
make sense, but sometimes when I think about Pride parades,
(36:31):
there can be an energy of fuck you, I'm here
when I go to Pride here in America, And then
I went to Pride in Amsterdam years ago and it
was a celebration. It was like, oh, we have a
right to exist. And there's a slight difference. One is
a fight and a fuck you middle fingers up, I'm here,
Which there's a validity to that, and there's this a
necessity to it. But if you're able to get to
(36:53):
the space where you know you know, you know, you know,
you know that you belong and that you deserve to exist,
it's a softer way of existing. It's a softer way
of moving. And I think that that is my hope
for anybody on their sexual journey is to know that
they that they deserve to exist, that who they are
sexually and how they want to exist sexually is a
(37:15):
beautiful thing, and that they are normal Ultimately, when I.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Was in my graduate program, I had like a multicultural
counseling class, and the semester long project was to identify
the population you would struggle the most to work with
that you have the most sort of like internalized bias toward,
and like work on that, try and undo your bias.
And it was the fall of two thousand and one
(37:42):
and I was in Indiana and the population I struggled
most to work with was religious fundamentalists of all kinds.
And so one of the people I talked to was
the head of the Episcopalian church on Main Street in
blooming To, Indiana, And I was like, so, what do
you do with the rage though? And this so she's
(38:07):
a lesbian minister in Indiana in the early two thousands,
and we're sitting outside a coffee shop on a beautiful
October day, one month after nine to eleven, and she
just like sits back in her chair and lets her
whole body soften. It was you using the word soften
that made me think of this story. Yeah, And she
(38:28):
just says, you take up one hundred percent of the
space that you take up and acknowledge that you are
entitled to one hundred percent of the space that you
take up and no one's going to take it away
from you no matter what happens. This is the space
that you take up.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
On my best day. That's how I would like to live. Yeah,
me too, do you know? On my best day? And
I know that it's imperfect, But like they're there, that messaging, Emily,
that that old school messaging, even at you know, the
thirty seven. Even what I might, I can argue that
I have a solid ten to fifteen years of like
(39:06):
this journey towards seth love under my belt. It's still
like a solid six or seven years of this like
oh journey and sexual liberation under my belt. And still
there is sometimes an effort that that I have to
pull on to allow myself to take up space, a
choice to be like I can take this space, this
(39:27):
space is mine. I can show up as myself. But
the messaging or the like the the I would say,
it's like updating the operating system. And so there is
an old operating system that sometimes comes in and goes smaller. No,
not like that, you shouldn't do that, and having to
fight with that operate yes, yes, quiet don't them, don't
let them see you and having to push against that
(39:49):
and be like no, no, I belong here and I'm
worthy of being here. I can't say enough to read
your book and tell everyone to read it. You know,
there are plenty of interviews and things that you've done
to talk about breaks and accelerators and responsive, so I
know people can find it.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
It has actually been totally thrilling to have an interview
where it's like, this is the story of my life.
I will spend the next thirty years of my life
talking about responsive desire, arous on non concordance and the
dual control model and that's just real and I accept them.
So it has been like super fun to just be
like just like the experience of living in the world
as a sexual person.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
Yes, and that's what I wanted. That's what I wanted
to create the space for because it like a gift
to me. Oh, I'm so glad because I was like,
I know that she's spoken out the ass ye and
like we can just offer something different.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Oh, I feel so safe.
Speaker 3 (40:39):
Yeah, thank you so much, Emily. This is incredible. I
really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
My pleasure.
Speaker 3 (40:52):
Well, you know, we are hose here, but hose with heart.
So before we go, let me speak to yours. I
hope that you were geeking out through this interview as
much as I am. I hope you had some oh moments,
some big oh moments where you're like, oh that that
(41:12):
so some things that really stuck out for me. I
think one of the biggest things was we were talking
about the end, which is it's never too late. My god,
It's never too late to have an orgasm. It's never
too late to find your pleasure. I was talking to
my husband about somebody who he was talking to who
(41:34):
is older, like in their sixties and sixties, a gay person,
and they were ready to explore their femininity, and oh
my god. Yes. You know. It's like you get to
a certain point you're like, oh, you know what, I've
done it all, or like it's too late. No, it's
never too late. If you want to explore your sex,
(41:55):
your pleasure, your femininity, your masculinity, your gender expression, or
you're whatever, whatever it is, just know that it's never
too late. Also, I really really value thinking about the
stories that we accept and you know, giving ourselves grace
for the fact that we are taught to not like
(42:16):
who we are. We are taught to hate ourselves. I
always say it to to the people who are close
to me and to anyone who will listen. You know,
I think the beauty industry is a really big example
of that. That the beauty industry as a whole makes
its money off of telling us that we are not
good enough. Right like, your face doesn't look like this,
(42:38):
but if you have this product, it will. Or you
are not the right size, but if you do this,
you won't be the right size. You know. All the
marketing that we are given from childhood and that we
internalize and never gets interrupted, is always feeding us that
we're not good enough. It's profitable for us to believe
(42:59):
that we're not good enough. I might have said this
on the show already, but I'm gonna say it again
because let's repeat it. It is profitable for us to not
feel good about ourselves. A lot of people profit off
of that. But what is devastating is that you end
up believing a lie. And the lie is that you're
not good enough, that you're not beautiful, that you're not
the right size, that you're not the right skin color,
(43:22):
that you're not the right height, that you don't have
the right size, dick, that your vulva is wrong, like
that your asses, all these things that we adopt is like, oh,
this is bad about me, and I have to fix.
I have to fix. I have to fix. When really
and truly as you are, my love, if you take
nothing else away from this whole fucking show, not just
(43:43):
this episode, but from this whole fucking show, you are.
Speaker 4 (43:47):
Enough as you are. You are worthy, you are beautiful,
You are enough. Do not let these motherfuckers keep lying
to you, Okay, if I can, if I can interrupt
that for you, you have been lied too. It's not your
fault that you may critique and pick it yourself over
(44:11):
and over. It is not your fault that when you
look in the mirror you don't always.
Speaker 3 (44:15):
Love what you see. In fact, you might hate what
you see. It's not your fault. You've been wired that way.
You've been trained that way so that people can profit,
so people can take advantage. But it is now your
responsibility to interrupt that, to love yourself the way you
deserve to be loved. You're looking for that love elsewhere.
(44:36):
You're looking for somebody else to tell you're beautiful. You're
looking for somebody else to tell you're worthy, baby. You
have to do that. You have to get about the business.
And it's not going to happen overnight. It's not going
to happen quickly. But it is a journey that I
want you to go on, moment by moment, and you
(44:56):
will slip back, but I want you to catch yourself.
Look in the mirror. You'll, oh, I start critiquing, catch yourself.
Uh huh No no no. My nose is perfect, my
lips are perfect, my face is perfect, my body is perfect.
Whatever your affirmation is, find it. And when you find
yourself thinking negatively about who you are, interrupt it. Because
(45:20):
that cage you do not belong in. That cage, baby,
you just don't. What else I mean self love? The
importance of self love, which is what we've been talking about,
the importance of getting out that cage that the world
puts you in, and understanding that you deserve to exist,
(45:41):
that you as a sexual being and your sexual desires
and your pleasures, all of it matters, and you deserve
to be I love you. Okay. So I'm going to
now transition into talking about the fires. So uh, if
you can't, that's not where you're at. You can't have
(46:03):
that space. I love you. I'll see you next week.
But for those of you can, I won't take up
too much of your time. I'll just kind of tell
you what happened and what I think. I'm emotionally navigating
our you know, our apartment was is luckily save our
(46:23):
building and our neighborhood. But the fire did start right
behind us, so on Wednesday, you know, the fire started
last week Monday or Tuesday, and so we were on
high alert and just kind of and forgive me from
getting days wrong, but we were just on high alert.
(46:45):
Were we were kind of numb, if you will, and
and also shocked, just like, what is happening? What do
you mean? The Palisades are on fire? What do you mean?
Pasadena and I'll Dina are on fire? And then where
we live, without giving away where I live, we live
(47:07):
by a trail that is also by a lot of
vegetation that is also prone to and very dry and
prone to fires. But as we understood it, we were
far enough away but also kind of like in between,
so we were, you know, kind of diligent, and it
was like, let's get it to go bag, even though
there was no one saying it was gonna you know,
(47:29):
we're just like, let's pack some stuff up. Let's what's
our plan. I was feeling uneasy, and then Wednesday came
and it seemed like the fires were still holding up
where they were, and we were like kind of feeling, oh,
most of the winds are gone, so hopefully it won't come.
It won't come to where we are, and so, you know,
(47:52):
I think there was like attention on Wednesday morning and
Wednesday afternoon, and then I like released, my bags are
still packed. Matthew had to work out of the city,
so he was like two hours away working and I
just kind of like settled, and I was editing videos.
Last week's episode was with Caramo, the week before with Griff,
(48:15):
and I hadn't, you know, with the holidays, I hadn't
posted these social media clips of the interviews, so I
was like editing. I was in my editing zone and
like captioning and whatnot. And then my best friend who
lives on the east side of town, was spending the
day in my neighborhood, not with me, but with his
(48:36):
other best friend who lives close by. So we're just
like keeping in touch. And I was like in the
middle of finishing up a video, and then my phone
buzzes and it's my best friend who says there's a
fire in this on this trail that is right behind us.
And it was kind of like a I from that
point on, I really can't tell you. I just kind
(48:57):
of I locked in. I read that text. I said
thank you, and I started loading the car because my
fear was that the electricity would go out and I
wouldn't be able to get the car out. So he
was like, we're taking our cars at the garage. Was like,
bet exactly. So I got my car at the garage
and then I started loading the car up with my stuff.
(49:18):
I called my husband on like I put my AirPods in.
I called my husband. I said, hey, this is happening.
What do you like? I have your bag? Is there
anything else you need? He told me what like quickly
went to grab I got the dog. I got Corey,
or beautiful sixty pound pitt who what a lesson in
needing to breathe because he started to adopt my energy,
(49:38):
which was very anxious, and I couldn't get and usually
I can get his harness on quite easily, but I
couldn't get his harness on because he was just moving
with me. He's like, what's happening? And I was like, okay, bitch,
we gotta breathe. So I took a breath and I
put his harness on, and then I got in the
car clipped in, and I can't tell you where I
(50:01):
was driving. I just like was like get out. And
as I was driving down the hill from our place,
you know, it was like at first when I was
packing the car, like I no one was moving. And
then I'm like, I saw one neighbor start to move,
and I saw another neighborhood the suitcase. And then by
the time I got in the car I was driving down,
people were now starting to rush. And then you've saw
(50:22):
cars coming out of garages. And what I can't get
out of my head is kind of the sounds of
fire alarms just blaring out of all these apartment buildings
going down this hill. And it was that like, oh,
this is happening. It's not a drill. This is happening.
Like we like we are well right, And so I'm
(50:43):
driving down the hill and I'm you know, like with
with the community is It's now been announced that there's
a fire near us and so anyone, anyone who knows
where I live is messaging, like my inbox is filling
up with are you okay? Where are you? Da? Da,
da da, And you can't answer all of them because
I literally do not know where I'm going or what
I'm about to do, what's about to happen. I just
(51:06):
know that I need to get away from my building
and away from my neighborhood because if anything is to go,
it would be us, because we are right by the vegetation.
We are like like like literally I didn't but if
you but the images are like if you looked in
my review mirror, you could just see baby. You could
just see those flames and this smoke, and it looks apocalyptic.
(51:31):
Doesn't even begin to describe what it looks like. And
with the energy of you know, everyone trying to get
to safety at the same time in a very dense
part of the city, you just realize, oh, this is
really happening. And I was texting one of my other
best so so my best friend who told me about
the fire. He had he knew where he was going,
(51:54):
which was I think east or somewhere. And then I
texted with another best friend who was like, I'm in
West Hollywood. We can go there, And so I was
like driving tos Hollywood. And then as I was learning
was Hollywood, we got kind of noticed that Wes Hollywood
was evacuating because the fire was spreading, but there was
like another fire, and so I was like, okay, we
can't stay here. So I got to them and we
(52:17):
packed the car with their stuff, and then I was
texting with my partner, my bun, and they were like
they just got an evacuation notice as well, and so
it's like, okay, let's get to them. And so you know,
my car has just become kind of a school bus,
just like picking up these people that I love, and
(52:39):
like checking with other people. And then we're trying to
figure out where where to go, and I think changed
our minds fifteen eleven times, and finally we're able to
find a spot in Long Beach and get there, and
yet Matthew there and we all just kind of buckled
down in Long Beach for a few days until we
(53:02):
were cleared to go back home, or for I think
two days, yeah, And and then you know we were
told whence we're coming back, and Matthew needed to work
out of the city again, and so we were decided
to just all go just like, you know, pack up whatever,
(53:23):
pack up whatever was whatever we knew we just couldn't
live without, and I even couldn't live without, but just
whatever was important since we had another, you know, another shot,
if you will. Were there things or their pieces that
were irreplaceable how we wanted to pack I had read
(53:46):
this post by John Mayer, which I'm gonna butcher it,
but it was basically saying, you know, when people were
saying they lost everything. Of course they lost their homes
and their you know, their spaces and their apartment buildings,
and some people lost people. But inside of losing everything
were the memories and these things that kind of remind
(54:10):
you that the people who were no longer here existed,
you know. I the first thing that I grabbed that
first time was my grandmother's crucifix. I'm not religious, but
it's like the only the only thing that I have
for my grandmother is her cross that she used to
(54:33):
wear every but every day pretty much, but also especially
every Sunday, and it hangs above my desk, and so
it's the one thing that I have of hers. And so,
you know, in this kind of packing again, it was
thinking about what are the you know, what are the
pictures or the pieces that are just like that represent
(54:57):
people that matter that are no longer here and you
just you know, you can't get that back. And so
that's how we, I think, chose what we were packing
our cars with for this, you know, I would say
self imposed evacuation. The emotions are complicated because you know,
(55:23):
we survive something that a lot of people weren't able
to or that some people weren't able to survive with
their life literally. But also like you know, I know
people who have lost their homes now and who have
lost their apartment buildings and who are starting over. And
(55:44):
my barber is one of them. My my, my barber
who I you know, if you know anything about me,
you know I get a haircut. This is like since
I was in since I was in college, I get
a haircut every week. So I have a very close
relationship with every barber that I have as I see
them so often. And so my barber, who have had
for the last few years, you know, I see him
(56:05):
once a week, sometimes I see him twice a week,
depending on what work is. And it lives in Pasadena
and so of course, when I found out there was
a fire Pasadena, like messaging my people that I know
up there, and when he told me, you know, their
apartment building burned down, you know, it's just like fuck,
(56:26):
you know, the helplessness, the out of and you know
that the only one. There are a lot of people
that I know who you know. I just got another
email yesterday that a coworker lost their home, and it's
a lot. This is I read a post that was
like basically driving what we're you know, what we're doing
(56:47):
as La City residents, you know, checking in with your community, donating,
you know, buying supplies, and just like please it is
not business as usual. Please stop emailing us about scheduling meetings.
Like we are traumatized and people are handling it differently
(57:09):
right and I want to hold space for that. Some
people are really numb right now. Some people work is
how they are moving through. They're continuing to take their
meetings or and some of us are and some people
are just crying, and some of us are cycling through
it all. And I want to acknowledge and and say
(57:33):
that there is no wrong way to engage with this
when you are inside of it. But I do wish
that we were allowed to what do I wish I'm
going to fumble through this, allow me to say this imperfectly.
(57:54):
I wish that it was normal for the expectations to
be that they are not normal right now, that we
cannot operate like things are normal. I wish that people
felt safe enough to not go to work if they
are unable to. But then it's like, well, if you've
(58:18):
lost things, or if you feel like you're on the brink,
or or if you are or if there's a threat
of you losing things and you gotta work right because
you got to pay for things, like it's it's and
like that's a mind fuck. At this point, I am
just sharing with you the the surface level of complexities
(58:43):
that is going on in the city. That's going on
with me, that's going on with my community, that's going
on with communities at large. There's a lot being navigated.
And so if you are outside of l I ask
that you just be gentle with those of your people
(59:07):
who are in LA right now. Like I said, I'm
recording this and fires are still going We're not okay.
Even if we say we're okay, we're not okay. People
who've lost their homes are clearly not okay. And people
who still have their homes, I want to say, are
also not okay. Everyone is doing their best with the
(59:29):
capacity they have. My barber decided to come in to work,
and so I got to see him and his girlfriend,
and you know, I'm so moved by how in good
spirits they are. How I mean, they're smiles and they
(59:51):
have each other, and you know they are they're acknowledging,
you know, the storm, the ship show of it all.
But also like you get really clear about what matters,
you get really clear about what's important, and people, your
(01:00:12):
people and your pets becomes really clear that that's what's important.
That's where I'm gonna end this, because I have been
talking for a minute. And of course you can find
fire resources and resources in terms of supporting people who
have been impacted by the wildfires in our show notes.
(01:00:34):
Tell me what you love them, and I love you,
and I'm grateful for this show to be able to
still talk to you, and we'll talk more soon. I
love you. You can find Emily on Instagram at e. Nagowski
(01:00:55):
and a g o s k I or Emilyanogoski dot com.
You can find me on Instagram as well at Brandon
Kyle Goodman. You can find our podcast at tell Me
Something Messy, and you can join our community on the
Messy Monday's substack. When you subscribe, you'll get weekly posts,
recommendations on sex and self and so much more. Also,
(01:01:17):
I want to hear from you, so send your topic ideas,
your messy stories, your submissions, your game ideas to tell
Me Something Messy at gmail dot com. You can also
call us at six six nine sixty nine messy. That
is six six nine six nine six three seven seven nine.
Rate review and share this podcast with all your HOE
(01:01:39):
and aspiring HOE friends. Really really helps the show out,
all right, Until next time, ask about the politics of
that dick before you make it spit, make sure they
eat the kitty before they beat the kitty, before fucation
or suctation communication. And in case you haven't heard it yet,
today you are so deeply loved you bye, Thank you
(01:02:03):
so much for listening to tell Me Something Messy. If
you all enjoyed the show, send me episode to someone
else who might like it. Tell Me Something Messy was
executive produced by Ali Perry Gabrielle Collins and Yours Truly.
Our producer and editor is Vince Dejohnny. For more podcasts
from iHeartRadio and the Outspoken Network, visit the iHeartRadio app
or anywhere you subscribe to your favorite shows.
Ashamed of your body and guilty about everything related to sex?
Would that be okay?
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Nobody would say yes, right? They had been off with
the choice, right right.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
So like that stuff just got put in our brains
and it's there, flourishing, flourishing.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
You know what we do here, destroy shame around sex
by talking about sex. Now, let me tell you something messy. Hi,
how are you? How's it going? How's your heart? If
you're new to the pod, this is not how we
usually start the show. And if you've been with me
for a minute, you know that we always start with
a messy story or we debunk a messy myth, and
(00:46):
we do messy mail, and then we have our guests,
and you know, I like to start the show off
with a lot of joy and laughter and fun. And
that's not how we're starting this episode because things have
happened in the last week. I'm based in Los Angeles
(01:06):
and so as you can imagine, the last week has
been a nightmare. And that is putting it lightly. I
do not think that I have cried or had this
many breakdowns in my entire life that I have in
the last week. So here's the deal. I'm not going
(01:31):
to tell a messy story. Today, I'm just going to
kind of introduce the interview because I also recognize that,
you know, people tune into the show for a little
bit of escape. You know, you know you want a
little escape from what may be happening, or you know
some of you might actually also be from Los Angeles.
I have people in Los Angeles, and so I want
(01:52):
to be conscious about not triggering as people are healing
and navigating what's going on in our city and also
in our country, in the world at large. So I
will at the end of the pod, after Hose of Heart,
I will talk about this experience what I can talk
about so far and share with you how I'm doing
(02:14):
and how we're doing, my partners and I and all
the things that I have learned thus far with the
caveat that it will be imperfect and messy and it
will evolve over time, and I'm sure I will. You know,
we're still in it as I As I am recording this,
I'm recording this outside of LA because we decided to
(02:37):
leave again because where our apartment is is a really
prime zone for issues, if you will, So we decided
to just best as more wins. We're coming in to
get out the city. So as you can imagine, my
emotions are all over the place. But the episode today
(02:58):
is one that I record did a few months ago,
and it means everything to me because it's with Emily Nagoski,
who is the author of Come As You Are and
is an incredible, incredible voice in this space of sex
and identity and pleasure and somebody who I look up to.
(03:21):
And the fact that she agreed to do the show,
I mean, I can't tell you the ways in which
we were, like me and my producer Vincent, and you know,
we're just like so geeked out about it, and I've
been talking about it. I think we reached out to
her like last June, and we're finally able to record
with her sometime in September, and so to finally be
(03:44):
able to share it with you is just a dream
come true. And so let's just how about we just
how about we just go right into it and hopefully
next week or if not next week, by the end
of this month, the top of next month, we'll be
back to our regular kind of openings and stuff. But
(04:08):
you know, me, I really value acknowledging where we are
individually and collectively and not trying to deny the emotions
that are are are prevalent, not trying to numb it,
but actually allow it to be. And so my choice
to not try and come up with a messy story
(04:31):
or even talk about a messy story because it just
is not where my energy is is how I am
taking care of myself and I hope taking care of
you too, giving you space to feel how you feel,
whether it's about the fires because you're experiencing it, or
something else in your life. We do not have to
(04:54):
Business as usual is not a thing. Okay, it's something
that I reject, especially as the world continues to do
so many things that are hard to witness and feel
an experience. It is just business as usual, I think
(05:15):
is harming us. And so let's acknowledge where we are
and work from that place and be free from that place. So, uh,
shall we jump into the interview? Baby? You know what
that means. It is time for a guest. Now, while
they get situated, we'll get our messy. Kiki started with
a how manifesto repeat after me aloud or in your head.
(05:39):
Grant me the serenity to unpack my shame, the courage
to heal, the wisdom to that sex is not just
about penetration, the audacity to advocate for my pleasure and boundaries,
the strength to not call my ex that fuck boy,
fuck girl, or fuck bay, for it is better to
masturbate by myself in peace than to let someone play
in my mother fuck face. Let the community say, oh helujah,
(06:05):
I am so excited to have Emily Nagowski on the show.
Emily Nagoski is the award winning author of the New
York Times best selling Come As You Are and Come Together,
as well as the Come As You Are Workbook, and
co author with her sister Amelia, of the New York
Times bestseller Burnout, The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle.
She earned an MS in Counseling and a PhD in
(06:28):
Health behavior, both from Indiana University, with clinical and research
training at the Kinsey Institute. Now, she combines sex education
and stress education to teach women to live with confidence
and joy inside their bodies. She lives in Massachusetts with
two dogs, a cat, and a cartoonist. Y'all please make
(06:48):
some noise for Emily Nagoski. Welcome, Emily.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Hello, I'm so excited to be talking to you.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
I'm so like, literally, I was selling you before we
start that I've been listening to you the audible and
so you've been in my head and I'm just i
might have a melt down talking to you now because
I'm just so excited. I also, I like, just got
a haircut. I tell my barber, I was like, you
have to read this book. I think that everyone has
to read this book. I don't like, I know that
(07:17):
the book really and we'll talk about this everybody. We'll
get into it. It centers around women, but I just
feel like everybody should be reading. Come as you are
and come together because the information is invaluable. So thank
you for writing it first and force so much. Yeah,
all right, So before we get started, we have a
couple what we call our messy mandates, so things get
to be unprocessed. Any thoughts or opinions shared have the
(07:40):
right to shift or change today, tomorrow or ten years
from now. And if during our little messy key key
something feels too personal or unintentionally offends, we use the
safe word foosball, which will give us a second or
a chance to pivot or a jest or addressed accordingly.
Sound good, sounds great? Beautiful. Want to start with a lube.
It's like an icebreaker. But you know, absolutely all right,
(08:05):
So let's play a game of fuck Mary or block.
We don't kill here, we just do the blocking. Okay,
So fuck Mary or block? Verbal play, food play, nipple play.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
You know I'm a writer, it's gonna be verbal play
is married.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Yeah, yeah, I would.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
I would totally food play, which yes, nothing against nipples,
yeah yeah, if but I could live without it?
Speaker 3 (08:32):
Oh could I live without nipples? I mean, I love
my I love God, I love a pair of nipples,
and I love having my nipples played with. But I
also need to hear, like you gotta talk to me.
So I'm gonna I'm a writer as well, so I'm
a verbal I'm gonna marry the verbal. I'm going to
nipples or food. Nipples are food.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
I love food and food is so fun to play with.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
I see, I don't have as much experience playing with
the food, and this is what I need to get into.
So for the for the sheer fact that I don't
have as much experience playing with food, I'll block it
because I know that I know what are good to me.
I know nipples are good to me. All fucked the nipples.
But I do want to get into what how does
one introduce themselves to food play? Like, what is the
best way to start? I was talking to Taylor Tomlinson
(09:17):
and we were talking about do you start with like
mac and che Well, somebody actually wrote in and said
they ate ice cream out of somebody's booty hole and
we were like, wow, that sounds exciting and messy.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
It's not where I would start.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
Okay, t got it. Would you start?
Speaker 1 (09:35):
So, like, you start somewhere where you're not going to
be challenged? Uh huh? And anal stuff is a challenge
for a lot of people. If you don't feel comfortable
around food, you may not feel comfortable around butts. Yeah,
so start with uh, non genital.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Locations for the food, Okay.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
And also start with food. One of the reasons I
think ice cream is actually good is that you've got
temperature that you can play with, and if you're a student,
temperature play, ice cream is great for that. You can
also do temperature play with things that are warm. Don't
go too sticky, though, so like hot fudge, real sticky,
difficult to clean up, leaves you feeling regret because of
(10:14):
how much laundry.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
There is, Yes, that does sound I know my brain
is already like, where's the detergent? That's so much?
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Yeah, there's a lot of laundry involved in food play.
So you want to start with something that is not
quite so like literally messy.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
I love that. Learn something new, okay, last one? Fuck Mary,
block spanking, hair pulling, biting.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
This is so complicated because like biting, where which hair?
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Yes? Yes, fair which hair? Okay? Spanking and can they spank? Well,
it's your most ideal, it's your the best spanker. It's
wherever you want the hair to be. Best situation, yes, yeah, yeah,
the best version of the situation, the most pleasurable version
of it.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Again, the stakes are so high. What if I get
it wrong?
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Oh my god, please don't this up.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Okay, I would probably, I would probably since it's the
one I forgot. I would probably block biting, okay, probably
fuck hair pulling and Mary spanking.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Ooh, I actually think I'm the same with you. I
would marry spanking. I would fuck hair pulling because you
have to do it right. And I would block the
biting only because I don't know I've experienced it, but
like I haven't experienced it to the to the degree
that I know that some people experience pleasure from.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
It because it leaves a mark.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
That's fair. That's fair. And people don't even know what
you're doing.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
I went through piggys when I was in high school,
and you're like.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
I don't need to we don't need to know, we
don't need to know. Hey, Emily, you won the game.
You won, you got an A plus and you win
my unconditional love. It is really the stakes are high,
but the rewards are higher. Do you know.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
You know what? Just a gold star is all I need?
Speaker 3 (12:02):
Just a gold stars. I'm sending you a scratch and
sniffstick car because those were the fuzzy texture. They're the best.
Ye they're the best, y'all. If you're listening, you are listening, obviously, Phileas.
Feel free to send your blue breaker prompt or messy
stories to tell me something messy at gmail dot com.
(12:22):
Speaking of which, Emily, can you tell me something messy?
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Okay? So, one of the things I talk about a
lot is that there's a difference between dealing with the
stress in your body and solving the problem that caused
the stress in the first place, Like the stress is physiological.
You have to do something with your body in order
to process the stress, to transition out of the stress
(12:51):
state into a relaxation state, which is almost always going
to be different from the thing that you do to
solve the problem that activated the stress in the first place. So,
for example, if you are at work and your boss
says something that like activates your stress response, where you
want to like reach across the desk and throttle that person, Like,
(13:13):
You're not going to do that. You're going to behave yourself.
You're going to say thank you, thank you so much
for that feedback, and then and then you're going to
go for a run, or lift weights or just like
jump up and down in the parking lot and do
a primal scream. Right, Yes, So that's the difference between
dealing with the problem versus dealing with the stress. Crying
(13:35):
is another example of like a thing that like it
doesn't solve the problem, but it can absolutely deal with
the stress in your body so that you feel well
enough to be able to deal with the problem itself.
All of this is to set up that there has
in my life been a circumstance where crying absolutely was
the necessary part of the solution, and it is. This
(13:59):
was more than twe years ago. I was in grad
school and I was with someone who, uh it would
I would learn later, was still in love with their ex.
And their ex I knew she's this wonderful person that
had apparently done a really good job of training this
(14:21):
man in oral sex. Turns out this person who are like,
I really liked this this I knew the ex enjoyed
her as a person. But it turns out that what
she likes with oral sex and what I like with
oral sex are basically opposite.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
God, not the same. Not the same, got it?
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yeah? And so this partner, who has been well trained
by the X, continues to do to me what he
was trained to do with hard And as I came
to understand this, I did all the like grown up,
I've been a sex educator for ten years. Stuff that
you do to like, try to communicate effectively about what
(15:00):
I want and like, Like I am skilled at communicating
in a wide variety of ways about what I want
and like both like in an encouraging way in the
middle of it, and like later on, like, hey, so
when you did that thing I've said before that what
I really like, is this kind of sensation And I
know that when you do this, I know that, like,
your previous partner really liked this other kind of sensation
(15:21):
and that's not it for me. And it gradually got
to like and when you continue to do it that way,
it makes me feel like you wish you were or
you imagine you are still in bed with this other person.
And I eventually had to cry in the middle of
oral sex in order to communicate in a way that
(15:44):
this person could hear that what they were doing made
me feel like they were not having sex with me,
they were having sex with somebody.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
To me.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
So almost always, my advice is that, like, crying is
not effective and helpful, but sometimes sometimes crying he was
effective and helpful, And like, I want to be a
person who has never had to cry in order to
like get the oral sex I want.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Yeah, yeah, but that is not the life I've lived.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
So did it change? Did it get better? It?
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Did it worked?
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Wow?
Speaker 1 (16:15):
I got rewarded.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
You catch a reward. You've tried all the tactics, and
the final tactic was the crying, which.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
I didn't want to do because it felt manipulative. Because
I was able not to cry, but I was like
fighting tears and I was like, you know what.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
Fuck this, fuckett, let this release it. I'm not going
to release the stress.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Yeah, I'm gonna release the stress. It's going to impact him.
And uh like he may feel manipulated, but like I
have had, this has been weeks.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
Yes, listen, have you tried all the tactics and then
you're like it's not working? Then I feel like you
pull out the red card, the cry card, that's right,
and make it happen. Wait have you ever have you
cried during sex in a you know, transformative transformation? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (17:04):
So many times?
Speaker 3 (17:05):
Yeah, yeah, what happened the first time? Because I only
experienced that for the first time a couple of years ago,
and I remember, like it was with my husband, and
I remember like being so confused by it because I
didn't know that you could crush because I associate crying
with bad things or hav any and the sad things
or have stress. Yes, so crying during like sex was
(17:25):
just like, wait, what what are all these emotions? Did
when it happened for you? Did you understand that it
was possible to cry during sex or was it a
new sensation or what was the experience.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
I am extra sensitive to my body sensations, so I
have had a meditation practice since I was fifteen. I'm
like super connected and engaged with my own body and
its sensations and emotions, and I have a really non
judgmental approach to all of my internal experiences.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Yeah, so which helped.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Boy, you want to have great sex, and meditation practice
completely helps with.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
That agreed agreat. Guess. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
It supper helps because it means that you can be
aware of the sensations happening in your body, can be
aware of what's going on with your partner. You can
tune in really finely and deeply to what's going on
with your partner. Yeah, which is like that fine tune
attention to your partners. How you get to simultaneous orgasms,
which isn't like a goal anybody needs to have, but
(18:21):
it sure is fun. Yes, And that is the circumstance
where I had my first like crying orgasm, like ugly,
not dripping, like mid orgasm, just like wrapping every limb
I have around my partner and like he's sobbing too.
And I was nineteen what yeah, wow, yeah, wow.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
You were able to have that kind of moment at
nineteen Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Years of a regular meditation practice in Wow, and this
is only my second partner.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
That's incredible.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Let me say that my first partner was like abusive
and terrible. Yeah, so I learned fast. By the time
I got to my second partner, I was like solving
orgasm quality. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Yeah, abusive partners. Will you know I was in before
my husband. I was in an emotional abusive relationship for
about two years. And one thing I will say is
when you maybe it's not true all the time, but
like when you are out of that, when you find
your way out of that, you get tuned in real quick.
We had like the Spidey senses out of I think
(19:33):
defense and protection, but the Spidey senses really raise up
because you're like, oh, I'm not trying to repeat that again,
and it makes you have to think. I think it
made me curious about who I am and what my
body does and what my what my personhood does. It
just made me have to be far more curious because
(19:54):
it was like, oh, I found myself dependent on this
person in a way that I don't want to ever
be dependent again. And so it just like I don't know,
it forces you to reflect and for better or worse,
I think get in touch with your body, which that
yeah makes And yet it.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Was more than thirty years ago for me and my
uh predator radar. Yeah, Like I mean I can tell
from seeing somebody on television.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
Yeah, like, oh it's not a good person. Yeah you can.
It's funny, you can. You can smell it, Like once
you're tuned in, You're.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Like, yeah, once you have the like tingly spidy sense,
like you said, like, it doesn't go away, because how's
it one trial learning? Like, once you have the experience
once and you recognize it for what it is, and
you're like, I'm never gonna get in that position ever again. Yeah,
once you get there, like from a distance, you can
(20:46):
spot that person so that you never get so close
that you get pulled in again.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
I couldn't agree more. You know what this makes me
want to actually zoom out a little bit, which is
you've had this transfer the transformational crime sex at nineteen,
You've written this fantastic book that, by the way I
do this thing on this podcast came out of me
doing this Instagram series called Messy Wendays where I would
tell people to tell me something good or messy, And
(21:11):
so we were just always talking about sex every Monday
on Instagram and your book would be one of the
books that would constantly come up and people are like,
oh my god, you have to read it. Come as
you are, because the whole thing was no judgment, no shame.
How do we talk about our bodies without judgment, without shame?
And you do such an incredible job in your book
of approaching that not just saying don't be judgmental, but
this is how you do it. But I guess I'm
curious how you even decided to write a book and
(21:36):
liberate people to themselves. Like, what was it that happened
for you that was like, Oh, this information needs to
get out there. People need to know their bodies.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
So I'm born and raised in Delaware, which here's my
actual humble brag. Delaware is such a small state that
my tenth grade English teacher was doctor Jill Biden.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
Whoa because okay, wow.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
So so I was a big old nerd. I was
like honors classes and all that stuff. And I knew
when I got to college, went to University of Delaware,
that I was going to be going to grad school
though I had no idea for what. So I knew
I needed some volunteer work on my resume to look
like a good candidate for grad school. And a guy
on my floor was pre med and he said, come
be a pure health educator with me. And I was like,
(22:19):
I like health, why not? So I did. I got
trained to go into residence halls to talk about condom's
contraception and consent. And I should say, like, this is
my first year in college. I'm eighteen, So at the
same time that I'm being trained to talk about these ideas,
this is the same time that I'm having this abusive
relationship the first year in college, which maybe I should
(22:40):
attribute part of why my second relationship was so vastly
much better is because I had the good fortune of
being formally trained in like sex education and communication skills.
Right with one year of that training under my belt,
I was already much better at identifying good dynamics and
communicating effectively and allowing myself to be in connection during
(23:05):
a sexual experience. So I started my training as a
sex educator like as soon as I got to college,
I got a master's degree in counseling psychology. I started
that thinking I would be a sex therapist, realized about
halfway through, I do not have the magical thing that
some people have to sit with clients and be.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
Like, yeah, what is that like for you?
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Yeah, but I am a woman who likes to be
in charge of things. And so I stayed in school
and got a PhD in public health, concentrating in all
of these in human sexuality. Uh So, my got a
job at Smith College as the director of Wellness Education,
where I taught a class called Women's Sexuality. The first
semester that I taught that class was very intense, and
(23:53):
my last question on the final exam was just tell
me one important thing you learned. It can be anything
at all. Just take the question seriously and you will
get the two points. Because they, like me, really took
it seriously and they needed the points.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
They wanted to go star my age right.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
And I thought they were going to write things like, oh,
some specific piece of the science like arousalkno concordance. They
were going to write about attachment theory or whatever. And instead,
out of one hundred and eighty seven students, more than
half of them wrote, I learned I'm normal. I'm normal,
I'm not broken. There's nothing wrong with me just because
I'm different from other people. I can trust my body
(24:33):
because I know I'm normal. I don't know if you've
ever graded final exams, but it is not usually like this.
I was sitting in my office grading with tears in
my eyes.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
I was going to say, you gotta cry when you
read that.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Yeah. It was overwhelming, and I wanted to do it again. Yeah,
and I wanted to do it at a larger scale
and in a way that could reach people who were
not at Smith College.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
And that's the day I decided to come as you
are four and a half years later.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
I have chills hearing that, because I think that that
is why why I'm screaming your book to anyone who
will And you don't need my help, like I know
a lot of people have it, but the additional additional people,
especially you know, queer folks men. I'm like, everybody, read
this book because you will learn that you're normal. Because
I think the thing that I've experienced in doing this
work is people feel like they are alone or that
(25:26):
they are the suffering is that they feel like they
should be something that they're not. And at the end
of your book, you which I've been saying for the
last couple of days to anyone who will listen, is
about the map versus the terrain. Yeah, because that felt
so important to me. And will you actually talk about
that concept. I'll let you break it down for the listeners.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
Sure. So a map is a portrait or an image
or a representation of something that actually exists. And if
you're following a map, like if you're walking along a
trail through a forest, following the trail on the forest,
and the trail goes away in front of you, and
you're like, but it says in the map it's right here.
You can either decide that like, the map is wrong,
(26:07):
that's not where the trail is and you're gonna need
to find a different path. Or you can be like, no, no, no,
the trail must be here, And so you're like tramping through, struggling,
getting more and more lost because you believe it. Surely,
if the choice is between the map being wrong and
you being wrong, I must be wrong. The map must
be right. It must be me that's wrong and broken,
(26:28):
and like the map says the trail is here, the
map must be right, and there's something wrong with me.
Every single time you have a script. If you have
a script in your head about who you're supposed to
be as a sexual person, what sex is supposed to
feel like for you, who your partner is supposed to be,
or what your relationships are supposed to be like if
there's a breakdown between the map you have in your
(26:49):
head and what's actually true for you, what's actually true
for you is what's correct, and the map is fucking
wrong every time.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Yeah, like realizing the map is wrong and you don't
have to fit the map, like trust the terrain, trust
your experience, trust that if something feels off or something
feels good like that is that's what's right, not what
you've been told you should you should be, or want
or desire. And I think that that's so liberating. And
the reason I think your book is also c liberating
(27:17):
is because for me, on my sexual journey, it's been
having to accept who I am and accept that I
do not respond in the ways that maybe my partners
do or in the way that gay men have and like,
and I've felt like, well, I'm just marching to my
own drum, and your book really just actually affirmed all
(27:39):
of it. And so there was there was like a
breath because it's like, oh, I'm just like you know,
how fuck ever, fuck what everybody else says, and I'm
just being me and like this is how I like
sex and whatever. But then to have your book be
like no, scientifically, yeah you're yeah, fuck what everybody else says.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
And they change across their lifespan.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Yeah, yeah, it's it was so liberating. I'm wondering, like,
what is maybe the most most is ah won't be
the right word, but what are what are some moments
or some interactions with readers that you've had that have
really kind of been long lasting and touching for you?
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Oh? So many. I did an event in Boston where
a woman in her seventies told me that a few
weeks ago she had had her first orgasm. Oh wow,
So I it's official. It's never too late.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
It's never too late. I please say that again because
I need because I need people to hear this. It's
never too.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Late literally literally until you're actually dead. It's never too late.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
And everybody, everybody, regardless of the age of your body,
regardless of the shape, size, structure ability of your body,
everybody deserves access to to ecstatic pleasure. And has the
capacity to access ecstatic pleasure.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
Everybody, like, what's the first step towards you're on your
path to ecstatic pleasure? If somebody's listening to like, I
don't know what I'm doing, what's that first time.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
I'm gonna say, it's gonna like even I would be
pissed off with this answer.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Okay, everyone braced yourself.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Mindfulness, mindfulness, fucking mindfulness practice, I know. So what I
really mean is learning to be non judgmentally aware of
your own internal experience. Because chances are, unless you were
raised in some extraordinary place that I have never been
(29:47):
to or heard of, you were raised in a way
that taught you to feel judgmental and ashamed of a
whole lot of your internal experience. And becoming aware first
of all of the experience itself, and then becoming aware
of the judgment your brain imposes on those experiences, yeah,
(30:10):
is a necessary first step to making a choice about
whether or not you want to keep those judgments or
if you want to swap them out for a non judgmental, accepting,
or even loving attitude toward your internal experience.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
When you put it like that, it feels I know,
it's not simple, but it does feel far simpler because
it's like, what story do you want to choose to believe? Yeah,
we're forced. There's so many stories forced onto us about
our bodies and our experiences and what they should be
and shoulds and shouldn'ts and this and that and you
should be like that and not like that, and we've
chosen to believe it, you know, by default. And so
(30:49):
I think there's the mindfulness is waking up and saying, well,
which stories have I chosen to adopt about my body,
about my pleasure? And can I, as you said, swap
them out? And can I choose something else? Can I
choose something softer?
Speaker 1 (31:02):
And I think it's not a choice until you have
the awareness because like these ideas, it's not like somebody
waited until you were old enough to understand before they asked, like, hey,
would be okay with you if I taught you to
feel ashamed of your body and guilty about everything related
to sex, would that be okay? Nobody would say yes?
Speaker 3 (31:21):
Right?
Speaker 2 (31:21):
They had been off with the choice, right, right, So.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Like that stuff just got put in our brains and
it's there, flourishing, flourishing, and until we recognize that it's there,
then we have a choice. Yes, oh this the like this,
like self hatred I've been experiencing all these years. That's
not something I have to feel.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
That's a key component, like to even recognize that you
are experiencing that before you can make the shift.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
That there is a different experience that's available if you
are interested in trying out something new.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
It's being radically honest with yourself about how you feel
about yourself, which is a scary thing to do. Right.
If I think about years before mindfulness or the pursuit
of self love, there's a lot of sadness at how
I thought about myself. Yes, a lot of you know, oof,
(32:18):
like the years, the years, the decades of beating down
on myself. And in the.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Business world they call it opportunity cost. Yes, like all
the things you could have had if you hadn't spent
all those years beating the shit out of yourself. Yes,
Like all the pain you could have avoided. It's actually
one of the key ingredients in hateful people is that
they hate themselves. They're totally married to the idea that
(32:49):
they deserve to be hated for those things. And so
to see someone who walks around the world loving themselves
for having this trait. Wow, that the hateful person.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Believes they deserve to be hated for, Like.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
How fucking dare you? I have to actually eliminate your existence.
I have to shame and judge you in public so
that everybody knows that I understand that that is shameful
and no one should be like that. And either I'm
gonna hide it if it's something that can be hidden,
or I'm going to like advertise that I know that
(33:25):
this thing that I cannot hide about myself is shameful,
like I already know, so, like you don't have to
judge me or beat me up because I'm like the
thing I'm thinking about is fatness. Like I'm a good
fat I'm exercising and I am eating a salad, And
you don't need to judge in shame me, because trust me,
I already judge in shame myself. And that's why I'm
gonna judge in shame and excoriate all the fat people
(33:48):
walking around the world who love themselves. I cannot tolerate
the idea that this is this is me in the
voice of a person who hates themselves. I cannot tolerate
the idea that they're is an alternative world where I'm
allowed to exist and be kind to myself and experience
pleasure and joy in a body that I have been
(34:09):
judging and beating up for decades. Yeah, does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (34:14):
It absolutely makes sense. The hatred has so much of
a how dare you? Yes? But really what you're mad
at is is the liberation, because it's like, well, I've lost, Yes,
I've lost this many years fighting myself over having this
body or whatever. This is how dare you love yourself
and be so free?
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Dare you be free?
Speaker 3 (34:35):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (34:35):
I cannot allow you to be free because then my
cage that I have built around myself is I've been
trapped all this time and I could have been free.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
Absolutely, I trap myself in this cage, and that's it.
That's a Well, Interestingly, maybe.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
I want to like not have it be too individualistic,
because like, let's see that the world puts you in
that case.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
That's what I'm saying. The world puts you in the
case you can get out exactly. It's that that's the key, Like,
the world puts you in the cage. But did you
lock yourself in? At what point did you lock yourself
in that cage and say Okay, this is where I'm at,
and everybody needs to be in their cage, as opposed
to seeing people free and go oh, I can get
free too. Yes, again, which story are you choosing to pick?
(35:17):
It's such a fascinating it's but it's difficult because it
requires and I think that this is just a societal
thing and a cultural thing. We have a hard time
one holding space for multiple truths. We have a hard
time grieving and mourning. And so there's there's a level
which I think you do so beautifully in the book
where you say I'm so sorry that the world told
you these things, And so there is a grief and
(35:39):
a mourning for the time lost that you spent beating
yourself up or ignoring yourself or not going places because
you felt like you were.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
We're not having access to like simple basic truths about
like what's true about like sexual bodies, what's true about tunitles,
what's true about how our brain processes sexual information? Like
of course people feel shitty if they don't have access
to basic information and the idea that they are allowed
that who they are as a sexual person is someone
(36:07):
worth being.
Speaker 3 (36:08):
Who they are as. A sexual person is someone worth
being who can I sit in this for a second
with you? Yeah, that is revolutionary if you can get there,
like if you can feel that, Yeah, that is revolutionary.
Because I think that I don't know if this will
make sense, but sometimes when I think about Pride parades,
(36:31):
there can be an energy of fuck you, I'm here
when I go to Pride here in America, And then
I went to Pride in Amsterdam years ago and it
was a celebration. It was like, oh, we have a
right to exist. And there's a slight difference. One is
a fight and a fuck you middle fingers up, I'm here,
Which there's a validity to that, and there's this a
necessity to it. But if you're able to get to
(36:53):
the space where you know you know, you know, you know,
you know that you belong and that you deserve to exist,
it's a softer way of existing. It's a softer way
of moving. And I think that that is my hope
for anybody on their sexual journey is to know that
they that they deserve to exist, that who they are
sexually and how they want to exist sexually is a
(37:15):
beautiful thing, and that they are normal Ultimately, when I.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Was in my graduate program, I had like a multicultural
counseling class, and the semester long project was to identify
the population you would struggle the most to work with
that you have the most sort of like internalized bias toward,
and like work on that, try and undo your bias.
And it was the fall of two thousand and one
(37:42):
and I was in Indiana and the population I struggled
most to work with was religious fundamentalists of all kinds.
And so one of the people I talked to was
the head of the Episcopalian church on Main Street in
blooming To, Indiana, And I was like, so, what do
you do with the rage though? And this so she's
(38:07):
a lesbian minister in Indiana in the early two thousands,
and we're sitting outside a coffee shop on a beautiful
October day, one month after nine to eleven, and she
just like sits back in her chair and lets her
whole body soften. It was you using the word soften
that made me think of this story. Yeah, And she
(38:28):
just says, you take up one hundred percent of the
space that you take up and acknowledge that you are
entitled to one hundred percent of the space that you
take up and no one's going to take it away
from you no matter what happens. This is the space
that you take up.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
On my best day. That's how I would like to live. Yeah,
me too, do you know? On my best day? And
I know that it's imperfect, But like they're there, that messaging, Emily,
that that old school messaging, even at you know, the
thirty seven. Even what I might, I can argue that
I have a solid ten to fifteen years of like
(39:06):
this journey towards seth love under my belt. It's still
like a solid six or seven years of this like
oh journey and sexual liberation under my belt. And still
there is sometimes an effort that that I have to
pull on to allow myself to take up space, a
choice to be like I can take this space, this
(39:27):
space is mine. I can show up as myself. But
the messaging or the like the the I would say,
it's like updating the operating system. And so there is
an old operating system that sometimes comes in and goes smaller. No,
not like that, you shouldn't do that, and having to
fight with that operate yes, yes, quiet don't them, don't
let them see you and having to push against that
(39:49):
and be like no, no, I belong here and I'm
worthy of being here. I can't say enough to read
your book and tell everyone to read it. You know,
there are plenty of interviews and things that you've done
to talk about breaks and accelerators and responsive, so I
know people can find it.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
It has actually been totally thrilling to have an interview
where it's like, this is the story of my life.
I will spend the next thirty years of my life
talking about responsive desire, arous on non concordance and the
dual control model and that's just real and I accept them.
So it has been like super fun to just be
like just like the experience of living in the world
as a sexual person.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
Yes, and that's what I wanted. That's what I wanted
to create the space for because it like a gift
to me. Oh, I'm so glad because I was like,
I know that she's spoken out the ass ye and
like we can just offer something different.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Oh, I feel so safe.
Speaker 3 (40:39):
Yeah, thank you so much, Emily. This is incredible. I
really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
My pleasure.
Speaker 3 (40:52):
Well, you know, we are hose here, but hose with heart.
So before we go, let me speak to yours. I
hope that you were geeking out through this interview as
much as I am. I hope you had some oh moments,
some big oh moments where you're like, oh that that
(41:12):
so some things that really stuck out for me. I
think one of the biggest things was we were talking
about the end, which is it's never too late. My god,
It's never too late to have an orgasm. It's never
too late to find your pleasure. I was talking to
my husband about somebody who he was talking to who
(41:34):
is older, like in their sixties and sixties, a gay person,
and they were ready to explore their femininity, and oh
my god. Yes. You know. It's like you get to
a certain point you're like, oh, you know what, I've
done it all, or like it's too late. No, it's
never too late. If you want to explore your sex,
(41:55):
your pleasure, your femininity, your masculinity, your gender expression, or
you're whatever, whatever it is, just know that it's never
too late. Also, I really really value thinking about the
stories that we accept and you know, giving ourselves grace
for the fact that we are taught to not like
(42:16):
who we are. We are taught to hate ourselves. I
always say it to to the people who are close
to me and to anyone who will listen. You know,
I think the beauty industry is a really big example
of that. That the beauty industry as a whole makes
its money off of telling us that we are not
good enough. Right like, your face doesn't look like this,
(42:38):
but if you have this product, it will. Or you
are not the right size, but if you do this,
you won't be the right size. You know. All the
marketing that we are given from childhood and that we
internalize and never gets interrupted, is always feeding us that
we're not good enough. It's profitable for us to believe
(42:59):
that we're not good enough. I might have said this
on the show already, but I'm gonna say it again
because let's repeat it. It is profitable for us to not
feel good about ourselves. A lot of people profit off
of that. But what is devastating is that you end
up believing a lie. And the lie is that you're
not good enough, that you're not beautiful, that you're not
the right size, that you're not the right skin color,
(43:22):
that you're not the right height, that you don't have
the right size, dick, that your vulva is wrong, like
that your asses, all these things that we adopt is like, oh,
this is bad about me, and I have to fix.
I have to fix. I have to fix. When really
and truly as you are, my love, if you take
nothing else away from this whole fucking show, not just
(43:43):
this episode, but from this whole fucking show, you are.
Speaker 4 (43:47):
Enough as you are. You are worthy, you are beautiful,
You are enough. Do not let these motherfuckers keep lying
to you, Okay, if I can, if I can interrupt
that for you, you have been lied too. It's not your
fault that you may critique and pick it yourself over
(44:11):
and over. It is not your fault that when you
look in the mirror you don't always.
Speaker 3 (44:15):
Love what you see. In fact, you might hate what
you see. It's not your fault. You've been wired that way.
You've been trained that way so that people can profit,
so people can take advantage. But it is now your
responsibility to interrupt that, to love yourself the way you
deserve to be loved. You're looking for that love elsewhere.
(44:36):
You're looking for somebody else to tell you're beautiful. You're
looking for somebody else to tell you're worthy, baby. You
have to do that. You have to get about the business.
And it's not going to happen overnight. It's not going
to happen quickly. But it is a journey that I
want you to go on, moment by moment, and you
(44:56):
will slip back, but I want you to catch yourself.
Look in the mirror. You'll, oh, I start critiquing, catch yourself.
Uh huh No no no. My nose is perfect, my
lips are perfect, my face is perfect, my body is perfect.
Whatever your affirmation is, find it. And when you find
yourself thinking negatively about who you are, interrupt it. Because
(45:20):
that cage you do not belong in. That cage, baby,
you just don't. What else I mean self love? The
importance of self love, which is what we've been talking about,
the importance of getting out that cage that the world
puts you in, and understanding that you deserve to exist,
(45:41):
that you as a sexual being and your sexual desires
and your pleasures, all of it matters, and you deserve
to be I love you. Okay. So I'm going to
now transition into talking about the fires. So uh, if
you can't, that's not where you're at. You can't have
(46:03):
that space. I love you. I'll see you next week.
But for those of you can, I won't take up
too much of your time. I'll just kind of tell
you what happened and what I think. I'm emotionally navigating
our you know, our apartment was is luckily save our
(46:23):
building and our neighborhood. But the fire did start right
behind us, so on Wednesday, you know, the fire started
last week Monday or Tuesday, and so we were on
high alert and just kind of and forgive me from
getting days wrong, but we were just on high alert.
(46:45):
Were we were kind of numb, if you will, and
and also shocked, just like, what is happening? What do
you mean? The Palisades are on fire? What do you mean?
Pasadena and I'll Dina are on fire? And then where
we live, without giving away where I live, we live
(47:07):
by a trail that is also by a lot of
vegetation that is also prone to and very dry and
prone to fires. But as we understood it, we were
far enough away but also kind of like in between,
so we were, you know, kind of diligent, and it
was like, let's get it to go bag, even though
there was no one saying it was gonna you know,
(47:29):
we're just like, let's pack some stuff up. Let's what's
our plan. I was feeling uneasy, and then Wednesday came
and it seemed like the fires were still holding up
where they were, and we were like kind of feeling, oh,
most of the winds are gone, so hopefully it won't come.
It won't come to where we are, and so, you know,
(47:52):
I think there was like attention on Wednesday morning and
Wednesday afternoon, and then I like released, my bags are
still packed. Matthew had to work out of the city,
so he was like two hours away working and I
just kind of like settled, and I was editing videos.
Last week's episode was with Caramo, the week before with Griff,
(48:15):
and I hadn't, you know, with the holidays, I hadn't
posted these social media clips of the interviews, so I
was like editing. I was in my editing zone and
like captioning and whatnot. And then my best friend who
lives on the east side of town, was spending the
day in my neighborhood, not with me, but with his
(48:36):
other best friend who lives close by. So we're just
like keeping in touch. And I was like in the
middle of finishing up a video, and then my phone
buzzes and it's my best friend who says there's a
fire in this on this trail that is right behind us.
And it was kind of like a I from that
point on, I really can't tell you. I just kind
(48:57):
of I locked in. I read that text. I said
thank you, and I started loading the car because my
fear was that the electricity would go out and I
wouldn't be able to get the car out. So he
was like, we're taking our cars at the garage. Was like,
bet exactly. So I got my car at the garage
and then I started loading the car up with my stuff.
(49:18):
I called my husband on like I put my AirPods in.
I called my husband. I said, hey, this is happening.
What do you like? I have your bag? Is there
anything else you need? He told me what like quickly
went to grab I got the dog. I got Corey,
or beautiful sixty pound pitt who what a lesson in
needing to breathe because he started to adopt my energy,
(49:38):
which was very anxious, and I couldn't get and usually
I can get his harness on quite easily, but I
couldn't get his harness on because he was just moving
with me. He's like, what's happening? And I was like, okay, bitch,
we gotta breathe. So I took a breath and I
put his harness on, and then I got in the
car clipped in, and I can't tell you where I
(50:01):
was driving. I just like was like get out. And
as I was driving down the hill from our place,
you know, it was like at first when I was
packing the car, like I no one was moving. And
then I'm like, I saw one neighbor start to move,
and I saw another neighborhood the suitcase. And then by
the time I got in the car I was driving down,
people were now starting to rush. And then you've saw
(50:22):
cars coming out of garages. And what I can't get
out of my head is kind of the sounds of
fire alarms just blaring out of all these apartment buildings
going down this hill. And it was that like, oh,
this is happening. It's not a drill. This is happening.
Like we like we are well right, And so I'm
(50:43):
driving down the hill and I'm you know, like with
with the community is It's now been announced that there's
a fire near us and so anyone, anyone who knows
where I live is messaging, like my inbox is filling
up with are you okay? Where are you? Da? Da,
da da, And you can't answer all of them because
I literally do not know where I'm going or what
I'm about to do, what's about to happen. I just
(51:06):
know that I need to get away from my building
and away from my neighborhood because if anything is to go,
it would be us, because we are right by the vegetation.
We are like like like literally I didn't but if
you but the images are like if you looked in
my review mirror, you could just see baby. You could
just see those flames and this smoke, and it looks apocalyptic.
(51:31):
Doesn't even begin to describe what it looks like. And
with the energy of you know, everyone trying to get
to safety at the same time in a very dense
part of the city, you just realize, oh, this is
really happening. And I was texting one of my other
best so so my best friend who told me about
the fire. He had he knew where he was going,
(51:54):
which was I think east or somewhere. And then I
texted with another best friend who was like, I'm in
West Hollywood. We can go there, And so I was
like driving tos Hollywood. And then as I was learning
was Hollywood, we got kind of noticed that Wes Hollywood
was evacuating because the fire was spreading, but there was
like another fire, and so I was like, okay, we
can't stay here. So I got to them and we
(52:17):
packed the car with their stuff, and then I was
texting with my partner, my bun, and they were like
they just got an evacuation notice as well, and so
it's like, okay, let's get to them. And so you know,
my car has just become kind of a school bus,
just like picking up these people that I love, and
(52:39):
like checking with other people. And then we're trying to
figure out where where to go, and I think changed
our minds fifteen eleven times, and finally we're able to
find a spot in Long Beach and get there, and
yet Matthew there and we all just kind of buckled
down in Long Beach for a few days until we
(53:02):
were cleared to go back home, or for I think
two days, yeah, And and then you know we were
told whence we're coming back, and Matthew needed to work
out of the city again, and so we were decided
to just all go just like, you know, pack up whatever,
(53:23):
pack up whatever was whatever we knew we just couldn't
live without, and I even couldn't live without, but just
whatever was important since we had another, you know, another shot,
if you will. Were there things or their pieces that
were irreplaceable how we wanted to pack I had read
(53:46):
this post by John Mayer, which I'm gonna butcher it,
but it was basically saying, you know, when people were
saying they lost everything. Of course they lost their homes
and their you know, their spaces and their apartment buildings,
and some people lost people. But inside of losing everything
were the memories and these things that kind of remind
(54:10):
you that the people who were no longer here existed,
you know. I the first thing that I grabbed that
first time was my grandmother's crucifix. I'm not religious, but
it's like the only the only thing that I have
for my grandmother is her cross that she used to
(54:33):
wear every but every day pretty much, but also especially
every Sunday, and it hangs above my desk, and so
it's the one thing that I have of hers. And so,
you know, in this kind of packing again, it was
thinking about what are the you know, what are the
pictures or the pieces that are just like that represent
(54:57):
people that matter that are no longer here and you
just you know, you can't get that back. And so
that's how we, I think, chose what we were packing
our cars with for this, you know, I would say
self imposed evacuation. The emotions are complicated because you know,
(55:23):
we survive something that a lot of people weren't able
to or that some people weren't able to survive with
their life literally. But also like you know, I know
people who have lost their homes now and who have
lost their apartment buildings and who are starting over. And
(55:44):
my barber is one of them. My my, my barber
who I you know, if you know anything about me,
you know I get a haircut. This is like since
I was in since I was in college, I get
a haircut every week. So I have a very close
relationship with every barber that I have as I see
them so often. And so my barber, who have had
for the last few years, you know, I see him
(56:05):
once a week, sometimes I see him twice a week,
depending on what work is. And it lives in Pasadena
and so of course, when I found out there was
a fire Pasadena, like messaging my people that I know
up there, and when he told me, you know, their
apartment building burned down, you know, it's just like fuck,
(56:26):
you know, the helplessness, the out of and you know
that the only one. There are a lot of people
that I know who you know. I just got another
email yesterday that a coworker lost their home, and it's
a lot. This is I read a post that was
like basically driving what we're you know, what we're doing
(56:47):
as La City residents, you know, checking in with your community, donating,
you know, buying supplies, and just like please it is
not business as usual. Please stop emailing us about scheduling meetings.
Like we are traumatized and people are handling it differently
(57:09):
right and I want to hold space for that. Some
people are really numb right now. Some people work is
how they are moving through. They're continuing to take their
meetings or and some of us are and some people
are just crying, and some of us are cycling through
it all. And I want to acknowledge and and say
(57:33):
that there is no wrong way to engage with this
when you are inside of it. But I do wish
that we were allowed to what do I wish I'm
going to fumble through this, allow me to say this imperfectly.
(57:54):
I wish that it was normal for the expectations to
be that they are not normal right now, that we
cannot operate like things are normal. I wish that people
felt safe enough to not go to work if they
are unable to. But then it's like, well, if you've
(58:18):
lost things, or if you feel like you're on the brink,
or or if you are or if there's a threat
of you losing things and you gotta work right because
you got to pay for things, like it's it's and
like that's a mind fuck. At this point, I am
just sharing with you the the surface level of complexities
(58:43):
that is going on in the city. That's going on
with me, that's going on with my community, that's going
on with communities at large. There's a lot being navigated.
And so if you are outside of l I ask
that you just be gentle with those of your people
(59:07):
who are in LA right now. Like I said, I'm
recording this and fires are still going We're not okay.
Even if we say we're okay, we're not okay. People
who've lost their homes are clearly not okay. And people
who still have their homes, I want to say, are
also not okay. Everyone is doing their best with the
(59:29):
capacity they have. My barber decided to come in to work,
and so I got to see him and his girlfriend,
and you know, I'm so moved by how in good
spirits they are. How I mean, they're smiles and they
(59:51):
have each other, and you know they are they're acknowledging,
you know, the storm, the ship show of it all.
But also like you get really clear about what matters,
you get really clear about what's important, and people, your
(01:00:12):
people and your pets becomes really clear that that's what's important.
That's where I'm gonna end this, because I have been
talking for a minute. And of course you can find
fire resources and resources in terms of supporting people who
have been impacted by the wildfires in our show notes.
(01:00:34):
Tell me what you love them, and I love you,
and I'm grateful for this show to be able to
still talk to you, and we'll talk more soon. I
love you. You can find Emily on Instagram at e. Nagowski
(01:00:55):
and a g o s k I or Emilyanogoski dot com.
You can find me on Instagram as well at Brandon
Kyle Goodman. You can find our podcast at tell Me
Something Messy, and you can join our community on the
Messy Monday's substack. When you subscribe, you'll get weekly posts,
recommendations on sex and self and so much more. Also,
(01:01:17):
I want to hear from you, so send your topic ideas,
your messy stories, your submissions, your game ideas to tell
Me Something Messy at gmail dot com. You can also
call us at six six nine sixty nine messy. That
is six six nine six nine six three seven seven nine.
Rate review and share this podcast with all your HOE
(01:01:39):
and aspiring HOE friends. Really really helps the show out,
all right, Until next time, ask about the politics of
that dick before you make it spit, make sure they
eat the kitty before they beat the kitty, before fucation
or suctation communication. And in case you haven't heard it yet,
today you are so deeply loved you bye, Thank you
(01:02:03):
so much for listening to tell Me Something Messy. If
you all enjoyed the show, send me episode to someone
else who might like it. Tell Me Something Messy was
executive produced by Ali Perry Gabrielle Collins and Yours Truly.
Our producer and editor is Vince Dejohnny. For more podcasts
from iHeartRadio and the Outspoken Network, visit the iHeartRadio app
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