Sacred Sex w/ Liz Goldwyn

Filmmaker, author and podcaster Liz Goldwyn dives right into the deep stuff with Brandon as they talk ex's, healing from being hurt, and of course, a healthy dose of revenge. Plus, some of the wildest submissions of Messy Mail yet!

Starf*cker Substack: https://starfcker.substack.com/

https://starfcker.substack.com/p/revenge-is-a-dish-best-served-cold 

Follow Brandon on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/brandonkylegoodman Join the C'Heauxmunity at https://brandonkylegoodman.substack.com/ Submit your own messy story or question at [e-mail] or call ‪[phone]

 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Some of the best sex obviously are anonymous. Sex can
be with some of the worst people, and you're literally
taking on that juju and it takes a long time
to clear. Like in my book of the book I
just gave you Sex, Health and Consciousness, I tell people
to say stage their genitals.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Right, Oh they're generals. Oh my god, I'll do that.

Speaker 1 (00:18):
Just stand up and show you.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
Yeah, please please. You know what, this is a safe
space to talk about relationships, love and sex. Now let
me tell you something messy.

Speaker 1 (00:33):
Hi.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to the show. Okay, so if you've
been here for a while, you know that the opening
used to say, you know what we do here destroytioning
around sex by talking about sex. But you know we
are about what is it? So we started in September,
I Tobe of November December, during your February March. We
are about six months, almost seven months into doing this podcast,

(00:58):
and it's it's become clear that we do a lot
more than just talk about sex. Now, sex may be
our entry point, but as you you know, we talk
about relationships, we talk about family, we talk about dating,
we talk about identity, we talk about so many things.
And so I wanted to update the show description and
opening to reflect that that, yes, we do talk about

(01:19):
sex because we host here, but there's so much more.
So let me read you what the new description of
the show. We'll say, here we go, It's time for
a messy key key about relationships, love and sex. Tell
Me Something Messy is an educational comedy podcast hosted by writer, actor,
and sexual mental wellness advocate Brandon Kyle Goodman, henceforth known

(01:40):
as Messy Mom. Come On, Eating, Eating Eating. Each week,
Messy patrons are invited to leave perfectionism at the door
and wad into the wild, wonderful world of dating, drama, pleasure, pursuits,
and communication breakthroughs. With Messy Mom activated, BKG steers the
key key as unfiltered guests and callers unpack entanglements and

(02:01):
embrace their truth. Tell Me Something Messy is a no
judgment zone where communication is currency and showing up fully
is law. Bitch that eats, Listen that eats. If you've
been here, you know that it is literally what we do.
And those are all the tenants and the comeponents, honey,
come oponents of this show. So I'm excited to have

(02:24):
the update and also I see that y'all have been
rating and reviewing, and I'm so so appreciative. Like I said,
that really helps us expand the show and grow the show.
So if you haven't done so already, please please please rate, review, subscribe.
You can just leave a quick review that says I
love a show, I love Brandon, the show's the shit
whatever it is, Okay, it really helps the show. So

(02:47):
we're at like I think, one hundred and sixty or
something reviews and ratings. So you know we're going to
do a new goal. I say, by the end of April.
So we got a little over a month, honey, by
the end of April, can we get to two hundred
and sixty? That's so specific. One hundred more reviews and ratings.

(03:10):
Two hundred and sixty reviews and ratings. So if you
have it yet, baby, go ahead and give us some
five stars, write a little this show is everything, and
follow the show again. It helps so much. Now all
that said, I'm gonna give you this whole like we're
expanding what the show does here. It's not just about sex,
it's relationships, identity, and it's love. But today we won't
really talking about sex down we'll talk about other things too,

(03:33):
But my guest today is incredible and maybe you know
what that means. It's time for a guess now why
they get situated? We'll get our messy. Kikey started with
a how manifesto repeat after me aloud or in your head.
Grant me the serenity to unpack my shame, the courage

(03:53):
to heal, the wisdom to know that sex is not
just about penetration, The audacity to advocate for my pleasure
and boundaries. The strength to not call my ex that
fuck boy, fuck girl, or fuck bay, for it is
better to masturbate by myself in peace than to let
someone play in my motherfuckerr face that the community say hoolujah.

(04:14):
I am so excited to have Liz Goldwyn on the show.
Liz Goldwyn is an author, filmmaker, and the founder of
the sex Ed, an educational platform dedicated to sex health
and consciousness. Liz is the writer and director of the
documentary Pretty Things. She's also the author of the non
fiction book Pretty Things, The Last Generation of American Burlesque Queens,

(04:36):
and the novel Sporting Guide based on original historical research.
Liz is now writing a weekly autobiographical substat called Starfucker,
an expose of our cultural obsession with celebrity and a
loving tribute to growing up Hollywood Royalty. Y'all please help me.
Welcome Liz Goldwyn.

Speaker 1 (04:58):
Hi wool Hey, thanks so much for having me.

Speaker 2 (05:01):
Thank you for me here. We're like internet friends, and
so we're meeting for the first time.

Speaker 1 (05:05):
We're Internet and substack friends.

Speaker 2 (05:07):
Substack friends. Yes, and we know some of the same
people we do. You interviewed my bosses, my former bosses
from big Mouth.

Speaker 1 (05:13):
That's right, I did. I interviewed them for the Sex
Said podcast. Yes, and we're substack friends.

Speaker 2 (05:18):
We're subsack friends. Your subsack has my favorite my favorite day,
star fucker. Mine is just messy Monday. But I love
the title star Fucker. We're going to get into all
of it. We'll talk about but before we do that,
let's do our messy mandate. So the messy mandates for
a messy key key is that things get to be
on process. Any thoughts or opinions shared have their right

(05:40):
to evolve, shift, or change today, tomorrow or ten years
from now. And if during the conversation anything unintentionally of
friends or we need to like, take a moment. We
just say that safe word foosball, and it gives us
all booze ball, gives us a chance to stop pause, pivot.

Speaker 1 (05:54):
Okay, got it?

Speaker 2 (05:55):
Yeah, yeah, dope, amazing. Okay, shall we start with alue breaker.

Speaker 1 (05:58):
Let's do it, let's loop.

Speaker 2 (06:02):
Always use loop. Okay, So we're gonna play. Come on,
don't go too fast. You can go fast after after
we started, after we.

Speaker 1 (06:12):
Get started exactly.

Speaker 2 (06:16):
So loop breaker, smash or pass. I'll give you a
problem and smash you pass it. So smash your pass.

Speaker 1 (06:22):
Hair pulling, hair pulling, I'm not I'm down for a
little hair pulling. Yeah, I don't usually so, like unless
I have four brothers and so when I was a kid,
that's usually how the fight would end. That hair pulling,
the bedroom, bedroom hair pulling. I'm more into like a
tender yeah, and more into a spank.

Speaker 2 (06:43):
Oh yeah, you like a handspank of paddle spank.

Speaker 1 (06:46):
I like a handspank. Okay, I like some handspanking more
than the hair pulling. But like, I'm not mad at
the hair pulling.

Speaker 2 (06:52):
I like a little I like a little hair pulling,
but has to be with somebody specific because you know,
I was showing everybody up in my hair like that,
so it has to be like my partner. I don't one.
Sometimes my hair is longer and they can do it.
Right now it's a little shorter, they can't do it.
But I'm always scared to hair pull although I do have.
I did have one partner who loves hair pool and
like doesn't have a tender head, so he likes And

(07:14):
I'm turned on when my partner's turned on. So like
the heart of the poll, he like the moment.

Speaker 1 (07:19):
The harder the the harder they come.

Speaker 2 (07:23):
It's just brand smash or pass a finger in your
mouth or fingers in your mouth.

Speaker 1 (07:30):
I'm not mad at a finger in the mouth, I said,
smash that.

Speaker 2 (07:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:34):
I also really like biting lips. Oh yeah, I don't
know if I have my lip bit it's hot.

Speaker 2 (07:40):
It's hot. That does so hot. I feel like I've
seen it on TV, Like you know, you buy your
own lip. I think that's hot. On somebody bites their
own lip, Yeah, that so sexy. But biting your partner's lip,
I haven't done that.

Speaker 1 (07:51):
Little love bite I love.

Speaker 2 (07:54):
I'm gonna try that. I would definitely I smash finger
in the mouth. There's something like so fairal and primal
when you're like hot and sweaty, and then like you're
just like, yeah, it's everything.

Speaker 1 (08:04):
Okay, we love some fair We love to.

Speaker 2 (08:08):
Me like, that's where I want my sex to be. Ultimately,
I want it to be like sweaty and nasty and
like we can do whatever we want conventually and respectfully
smash the past, public play.

Speaker 1 (08:21):
Public play. I mean, I guess like a light like PDA,
but I'm not I'm not an exhibitionist.

Speaker 2 (08:28):
That's fair.

Speaker 1 (08:29):
Yeah, that's fair. Not really, although I have erotic a
lot of erotic fantasies involving libraries.

Speaker 2 (08:35):
Can you tell me one of them?

Speaker 1 (08:37):
Well, you know, I'm an author and I've written a
few books, and I just have this fantasy about like
a hot professor and like, you know, the rare book
room at the at the library.

Speaker 2 (08:47):
Rare book room, yes, being like.

Speaker 1 (08:49):
Pressed up against these like dusty books.

Speaker 2 (08:51):
I feel like my husband, my husband who loves books
and like our houses, our apartners like filled with books,
would have this fantasy as well. Yeah, I mean his
dream is still have like the Beauty and the Beast library.

Speaker 1 (09:01):
Essentially a library ladder. Yeah, like an overstuffed leather chair
or absolutely fireplace.

Speaker 2 (09:10):
Going and then maybe like a little secret passage one
of the bookshelves. Absolutely to your sex room. Absolutely, I'm
into this. I what do I feel about public play.
I'm not opposed to it. I love it when it
is in the context of like a sex party or
a dark room or like you know, places where we're
like this is happening, yeah, as opposed to like we're

(09:33):
just driving down the street and you're like, let's pull
over and do something that. I always get scared about
getting caught. I like it to be I haven't.

Speaker 1 (09:39):
I've done that once, Yeah, in West Hollywood with an author,
actually a novelist, with a hot novelist, Yeah, who had
in a parked car on the street I lived on,
which I won't name, but it's really near the Chateau Marmont,

(10:00):
and like just pulled over on the street with like
the windows of the car all fogged up, and it
was honestly so hot. It was super hot.

Speaker 2 (10:07):
One of my only uh a couple of well, one
of my only public places was West Hollywood, which was
which was in the alleyway. Wasn't as cute as a car,
but it was an alleyway, and then I think I
also sucked behind another bar on the east side. There's
something about these alleyways and these garages and these Yeah,
you know, when we've we've had enough drinks, you know,

(10:30):
snipped a couple of poppers, You're like, let's let's do it.
Do it. Lizzy won the gang. My unconditional congratulations, patrons
and hoes. If you have a loop breaker ideas or
messy prompts or messy stories, you can email me at
tell Me Something Messy at gmail dot com. Speaking up, Liz,

(10:52):
can you tell me something messy?

Speaker 1 (10:55):
Okay, I'm gonna tell you something real messy. I love
it that when we first met and I did a
pece you interviewed me for your sub stack, I told
you that I had just had a really bad breakup.
Yes you did, Okay. So I discovered in this breakup
that this person that I loved and had been involved
with for about six years a little bit, some of

(11:17):
it off and on, but mostly on. I stopped counting
after I discovered the twenty eighth different, the twenty eighth
sugar baby, he and did those calculated calculations in my
head while he was sleeping in my bed. By the way,
is when I discovered this. Wait wait, hello, okay discover
We were at dinner. I was feeling really stuck in

(11:38):
the relationship, and I literally like prayed to my guides
and my ancestors, please give me a message, Please give
me a sign, Please give me some guidance, like what
I do in this relationship. Sure, And I was in
La I was flying back to Hawaii in the morning.
I hadn't gotten a message, and I was, you know,
we're feeling stuck. I was feeling stuck. We're out to dinner,

(11:59):
sharing a plate of oysters, and he says to me,
do you think your father was a sex addict? He
says this. At dinner, we're like talking about my dad. Well,
my dad. You know, my dad was actually arrested for
soliciting sex worker when I was like an infant, and
he knew this, like he knew all my stuff around
like monogamy, Like you know, we're in a monogamous relationship.

(12:19):
Like we're talking really openly all the time about sex.
I mean, of course that's what you and I do.
So you I think establishing that trust in a relationship
is so important. So maybe you do want to be
polyamorous or whatever. But you talk about it, you don't communication. Yeah,
and he knew I had all these, like, you know,
trauma from my dad being this way or women. So
he says this to me, and I kind of put

(12:41):
it in the back of my head. I said, that's
an odd question to ask. Then we get home. We're
watching a movie and I want to google something about
the actor and he hands me his phone and he's
not precious with you know, his past code or anything.
So I type it in looking it up. We're lying
there together and a number, a number comes up, this
note and then two hearts pop up, and he snatches

(13:03):
the phone out of my hand and swipes it up
so fast. So I was like. We go to bed,
and I'm like, fuck, I'm leaving in the morning. I
got to take a look at the phone. And I'm
not the type to do this. I don't even want
to be the type, like I feel like it's not
sexy to be you.

Speaker 2 (13:19):
Know, sure, but that moment makes you go.

Speaker 1 (13:21):
So he fall, he passes out. I go and I
open up the phone and it's like, well, first of all,
that first girl, Teresa two hearts. Sure there were photos
that she sent him. So since we went to bed,
more more text came through from that number, photos of
them on a hike that morning with his dogs. No, no, no, Yeah.

(13:44):
I keep scrolling back, scrolling back, and I see, like,
you know whatever, explicit sexting, et cetera. She's found another
girl for them to party with. I scroll all the
way back from the beginning and they've met off seeking arrangements,
and it's like it's like a sugar Daddy sugar baby website. Yeah,
so I go back to the very beginning and there

(14:05):
he's like saying what he pays per you know, what
he generally pays per week or per month or whatever.
So I'm like, Okay, while I'm looking through this text
from another girl comes through. Scroll back to the beginning
of that. That one he hasn't even saved the name
in the phone, and they're just like negotiating to me.
Keep I was like, a fuck, if there's only two

(14:25):
in this last like twenty minutes. I keep going through
the phone. It was like I lost count about twenty
eight different women. But it was all you know, repeated,
like cut, copy and paste the language. Yeah, what he's
looking for? Copy and paste the photos that he was using,
which were like fucking outdated selfies. Also, he said, some

(14:47):
of these girls photos of the view from my house
in Hawaii on my fucking birthday, on my fucking birthday,
which is Christmas Day. No, while he was saying with me,
and it had gotten like really, you know, it was
almost like the last in the last you know, few months,
it had gotten out of control, like a mania with it.

(15:10):
So I start calculating in my head how much money
he's spending, and it's like he doesn't even remember anything
about these women. He left one woman he like arranged
a date where she had a she was a single mom,
got childcare. He just didn't show up. My god, you know,
just like he was messy. He was messy, so I knew.
So I then I go back to bed and I
just so I didn't sleep. I lay in bed, thinking

(15:33):
he's gonna lie to me if I if I, you know,
ask him about this. I just laid him. I got
the message. I got a lot of that. So I'm
laying in bed and I'm thinking, you know, and then
I start convincing myself. I start gaslighting myself, like did
I make this up? Did this really? Because I was
so shocking, Like I thought this person was one of

(15:55):
my best friends. And we had literally just had a
conversation two days before where I said, I don't think
that we're meant to be together. What do you think
about dating other people? No, I don't want to date
anyone else. I'm barely even masturbating, I swear to God,
I swear to God. I said, what do you think
about me dating other people? No, I wouldn't like that.
That would really be hard for me. But I would

(16:16):
understand if you're really frustrated with me. Yeah, yeah, because
this is the only saving grace. He'd been having ed
problems you and I was really patient with it, and
I was like, let's find you a doctor, and like
all this stuff. I was trying to be really like,
you know, comforting and supportive and all these sayings. So

(16:38):
thankfully we weren't really having penetrative sexy thank god. Yeah,
it's like time period because.

Speaker 2 (16:46):
You don't Yeah, there's no yeah, your health, your health, yeah.

Speaker 1 (16:49):
Yeah. He was definitely not using production with these women.
And anyways, so I was like lying in bed in
the morning, he got up before me. I'm I'm told him.
I know, I made it I was like, I need
one more look at the phone, just to make sure
I'm not crazy. So maybe I made this up. Maybe
I was dreaming. I don't know, maybe this was all
a bad dream. So he gets in the shower peek
at the phone one more time, and I see no, no,

(17:10):
I was right. I make an Excu's supposed to take
me to the airport to lax. I make an excuse. I'm like, oh,
I forgot I have therapy, Like, can you give me
space for an hour? So he leaves. I call one
of my best guy friends who lives in the neighborhood.
He comes over. We take a walk. I'm sobbing. I'm like,
can you take me the airport? Yes? And I attacked
this ax and I say, oh, something came up in therapy.

(17:33):
I need time to process. I got a ride get
to the airport. And by this time, I'm so upset
and I'm so pissed. And also remember I've done the
calculations in my head now why he's spending and it's
a lot of money. Like I calculated that he's spent
at least sixty thousand dollars in like the last four
to five months. I know, so and remember the language

(17:56):
is repeated over and over again, all these texts on
how much what he he says he'll like pay per
month for rent or whatever. So this is what I did.
Right before I got on the plane. I sent him
a VENMO request for twenty seven hundred dollars with the
note I heard this is the going rate for seeking
arrangements plus the therapy I'm going to need to process this.

(18:19):
I don't know, it just came to me. It came
to me. Okay, this motherfucker paid it, and I have
not spoken to him since, so I've had no closure.
It's about to be like in a couple of weeks,
it's about to be like a year of me finding
this out. And my heart is honestly still tender, like

(18:40):
I've had to really move like molasses with anyone else
because I just feel so so shocked. He paid it.
Haven't heard from him since I changed his name to
sick fuck in my phone, and I wrote I wrote
about this on my substack. But after like six months,
and it's called revenge is a dish best serve cold.

Speaker 2 (19:00):
We are going to put this in the show notes,
and I really go into detail because it's actually funny
some of the stuff, and I, you know what, honestly
taking his money made me feel bonded to these women,
to the sugar baby.

Speaker 1 (19:13):
For me, because it made me feel you know, there
was one moment, there was a brief moment where I
felt empowered by taking his money, and I thought, fuck,
I should have charged him more. And I started imagining
in my head like, oh, if he wants to talk
to me, to like, you know, try to apologize or
speak his mind, I'm in charge him a thousand dollars
a minute, yeah, you know, for a call. And then
you know, I realized, you know, that wouldn't actually make

(19:33):
me feel better. But there was one moment where I
felt like, yeah, empowered by taking the money and bonded
with these other women. I'm kind of glad that they
were taking advantage of him too. My first book and
film called Pretty Things, was about the last generation of

(19:54):
American blessed queens and the advent of strip tease. So
these were like the big star blessed stars of the
nineteen thirties and forties, and when I was making that work,
they were in their seventies and eighties, right, And I
was when I started that work I was eighteen, I
was married really young. I met my ex husband when
I was eighteen turning nineteen. So I had this like
sexual coming of age through these strippers in their seventies

(20:17):
and eighties when I was in my early twenties, Like
they were teaching me about men, yes, and they a
lot of them were, you know, did sex work and
stuff on the sides, and they really I felt like
I never had the chance in my life to be
a sugar baby or I don't know, I was just not,
I guess not wired like to have those kind of

(20:38):
like financial relationships with men. And I almost felt like
I missed out. And so because I have a lot
of friends too or did that and like you know,
a lot of friends me too, or like sugar babies
and it sounds fabulous, I'm like, oh my god, like
five thousand dollars in cash, like for a dinner and
you don't even have to do anything, like let's go shopping.

(21:00):
My second book is about sex, vice and sex work
in la in eighteen ninety seven, called Sporting Guide. So
it's a subject that like really interests me. And as
I told you, my father, you know, was he was
a total playboy, he was arrested for soliciting a sex
worker when I was an infant, And so sex work
has been a theme in my work and in my
personal life, and so to me going through this personal experience,

(21:25):
like I have a lot of friends who are sex workers.
I've done a lot of research on the history of
sex work in all different cultures and time periods, and
especially in Los Angeles. Yeah, and of course Sean Baker,
who directed Anora, I've known him for a long time Tangerine.
His film Tangerine, Yes I Love is brilliant. If it's
young and seen it, it's shot on iPhone, it's it
takes place in Los Angeles. Yeah, as is also set

(21:48):
in the world of sex work. Yeah. But yeah, I
think having this personal experience where I was, you know,
because I had all this like I don't want to say,
like intellectual or academic or like observer experience of sex work,
but then having the experience of like taking his money
and being and I was so hurt. I was so

(22:10):
destroyed by this. I really did feel I could understand
why you would feel, like why all these women I
loved and even had learned from in burlesque felt, you know,
empowered by it, and I was like, Oh, if this
wasn't a person that I knew well and that I loved,
and I was doing it for revenge, I would so

(22:30):
get off on this. I was so good.

Speaker 2 (22:34):
There's something so I think that we're taught to be
ashamed of it, but so I forget how people have
phrased it. But it's like you have sex with some
of the crappiest people for no money.

Speaker 1 (22:44):
Yeah, so might as well get And also, you know,
I've always wondered, like, what is really the difference between
being a trophy wife? Talk about it, you know, because
you know, at least you have freedom when you're when
you're doing it in the way like a sugar baby,
for example, your own business. You're your own business. Well,

(23:04):
you don't have to get locked down with some like
old dude and they have to like sit there while
he entertailing eating a chicken dinner and some like air
conditioned ballroom like his boring corporate colleagues, you know, and
like while you're cause playing child wife, you know, you
don't have to pop out the kids for them. You
don't have to like you know, be on the pta

(23:26):
board or whatever. Right, you just get to be the
like fun one, you know that like go shop with
his money. Yeah, there is.

Speaker 2 (23:36):
Something quite far more empowering about that version that situation. Yeah,
you set what your price is, you set what the
dynamics are, you set what the expectations are, and then
you don't have to be attached to it. You don't
have to be attached to their whole life because because
part of the kink I think for the sugar Daddy.

Speaker 1 (23:56):
Is being able to pay for this guy for my
ex Yeah, it was like but here's the thing, I
knew his business was in trouble, so I'm like, you
are fucking messy as bus and speaking of Yeah, it was.
It was an addiction. And that's the thing is that
I'm one of those people that would have been I
loved him and I cared about him as a friend.
So if he had been honest with me and I

(24:18):
gave him so many opportunities to I would have maybe
not I would have had the choice to like stay
with him or not, but I would have still accepted
him and I would still have like held space for
him in my life, just not as as a partner. Yeah,
I mean when you talk about like you know, the
sex work being not attached to it. It's never obviously

(24:40):
we know, nothing with sex is ever that simple or
black and white, right, because there is I think for
a lot of us, especially if we're like a heteronormative
woman being penetrated. Yeah, there's a psychic impact of being
of having penetrate trade of sex or like you're literally
taking on someone else's energy.

Speaker 2 (24:57):
I always say that, Like I say that for bulbo
owners and for bottoms, right, Like, if somebody is coming
in inside you, there's no matter what, there's energy. There's
energy exchange, even if you were even if you were
the penis owner, Like, there is an energy exchange. And
sometimes I feel like, especially in sort of the gay
male community, we dismiss that. Yeah, it's like I'm not
saying you can't have your anonymous sex, but I do

(25:18):
think there's there is value and importance in having intentional
sex because of that exchange, because of that energetic exchange
that is absolutely happening.

Speaker 1 (25:27):
Yeah, I mean, I fully believe in intentional sex personally,
and I think probably maybe more in your community. It's
because man are conditioned to think of sex as disposable
and like absolutely be cut off from it. From your spirituality.
But I really do believe that that is one. Yeah,
that is one. And you know there some of the

(25:48):
best sex, obviously are anonymous. Sex can be with some
of the worst people, and you're literally taking on that
juju and it takes a long time to clear. Like
in my book of the book I just gave you, Yeah, Sex,
Health and Consciousness, I tell people to say stage their genitals, like.

Speaker 2 (26:05):
Oh they're generals. Oh my god, I'll do.

Speaker 1 (26:06):
That, stand up and yeah please please like oh yeah,
not too close, not too close, or you put it
in a metal bowl like smoke. Have the stage in
a metal bowl and kind of stand over it naked. Yeah,
you know, I think you should shage your stage, your armpits,
rand your everywhere. But yeah, you know, I'm with you.

Speaker 2 (26:28):
I had I had somebody. I had somebody at my
apartment and we were fooling around and they left, and
I the energy shift was so apparent, like I couldn't sleep.
I had to get out of bed. I told my
best friend I'd get out of bed and sage everything
because I just could feel that the end, like I
was like, oh, I think I just I think that
they had a darker energy and I and I felt

(26:49):
like I took it on and I was unsettled. Had
to like sage the incense, talk to my grandmother.

Speaker 1 (26:56):
Yeah. Yeah, and also like bath with salt. Bath is good.
We're like just washing your hands all the way up
to your elbows, even if you just even it's not sexual,
youre like meet someone. And I think we're in a
time right now, like in the world, in this country
in twenty twenty five, where there's a lot of shadow
and a lot of darkness, and so we need to

(27:17):
be even more intentional with our energy because we need
to stay looking towards the light in order to be
of service and of feeling and to be able to
resist with our art and our and our podcasts and
our words and everything that we do.

Speaker 2 (27:32):
Yeah, I want to, like, I want to ask a
couple of things, and we'll do mess email and all
that stuff. But I want we're on this trains. I
want to like keep going with it, which is one
What are the ways for people to raise their awareness
about themselves? You know, people who are listening, you know,
I said the show is for the most novice hoe
and the most experienced, so so people who are trying

(27:53):
to begin raising their awareness about their body and the
energetic power their body has. Like, what are the ways
to start you get in touch with that?

Speaker 1 (28:02):
Okay, So the whole premise of my last book, Sex
Health and Consciousness, is very much about looking at your
sexuality as your spiritual energy, your sexual energy, and your
creative energy. Your mana, your prana, your chi. If you've
ever heard those terms, yeah, chi and prana you might

(28:22):
hear in yoga or mana is like the Hawaiian word
for it. It's like your energy, your power. Your sexual
energy is your power, and it's not just something that
you do with another person or when your doesn't necessarily
always have to do a sex. Sexual athletes, for example,
they won't often masturbate or have sex before a big

(28:42):
game because we know, right, you've heard that. Yeah, so
because the sexual energy is really powerful, right, and so
you can use it to manifest same thing. Apparently Shakespeare
used to refrain from sex when he was like writing
us on it. We know that motherfucker.

Speaker 2 (29:00):
Sentence exactly sentence something.

Speaker 1 (29:08):
And May West he was like a famous fem fatale
and also a screenwriter. She also the same, and she
was like known to be having multiple lovers in her eighties.
So it doesn't preclude you from being like sexually active
or sexually liberated. It just you know understand how to
harness it and how and how to be intentional with it,

(29:28):
and you under so so that then you have the choice,
because I think a lot of people, I particularly see
this with straight women. They they are like they feel
like they need to be they feel like being liberated
sexuality means like being super casual about it and not caring.
And then it's yes, it takes a toll. So yeah,

(29:50):
So I think understanding first, like it's like kind of
like your body is a temple idea. That doesn't mean abstinate,
It doesn't mean any of that. It just means and
I think we should teaching this to kids.

Speaker 2 (30:01):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (30:02):
It means like self esteem, self love, understand how to
pleasure yourself first. I cannot tell you how many relationships
I've been in, even including with that one, because I
didn't value myself enough, you know, even as an adult
asked divorced woman, like, I did not value myself enough,
and I allowed my feelings of like insecurity or loneliness

(30:24):
or lack mean that like somehow having sex with this
hot person make me whole, would make me feel better
about myself. And so I think that like the more
that you can kind of get intentional with that energy
and move from that place, you'll see your whole life
opening up.

Speaker 2 (30:44):
I think that that is such a know some people
are listening are struggling with that, where you have sex
with somebody so that you could or you get in
relationship with somebody so that you can point to them
and say, there's my worth, there's my value, Like I'm
valuable because this person wants me, because this person wants
to marry me, this person wants to fuck me. And
it distracts us from doing the real work, which is

(31:04):
who am I? What? What? What brings me value for myself?
Where does my self worth really come from? Which is
supposed to be internal, your own operating system.

Speaker 1 (31:13):
But I think it's very hard because we're the culture
doesn't give us that message.

Speaker 2 (31:17):
It doesn't.

Speaker 1 (31:18):
But that's the thing that I think that we're in
a major turning point in humanity right now, as as
we can see from everything that's going on, like politically
and culturally, that like, I think there has to be
a shift towards us getting closer to God in ourselves
whatever that means, whatever, It doesn't have to be organized religion.

(31:39):
We actually have a big I have a company called
The Sex Said, also the sex Said dot Com, and
we have a podcast. But on our site we have
lots of resources and we have stuff sex positive Muslims,
sex positive Christians. So I don't think the sexuality and
spiritually are exclusive to each other, right, But I think

(32:00):
I think that like getting closer to whatever gives you faith, hope, prayer,
and also I think that that just expands the orgasm
and expands the sense of sex when you can get
into that sacred sex. And again that doesn't mean that
you can't have kinky, anonomous sex. Absolutely, just really understand
you know what needs those are fulfilling, so that before

(32:23):
you fuck that person whatever, drink that drink, take that pill.
You understand. Am I doing this because I want to
feel pleasure? Or are you doing this because I really
feel shitty about myself and I want to escape this pain?

Speaker 2 (32:35):
Yes? Because if you're numbing or engageing, Yeah, because.

Speaker 1 (32:38):
Those have different impacts on you, because then it just
becomes mindless, like mindless consumption.

Speaker 2 (32:44):
Yeah. I always talk about the beginning of my whole
journey in my twenties was such a mindless It was
always had to be drunk or high, and I was
just fucking to feel better about myself. And nine times
out of ten the sex was terrible. It didn't accomplish
what needed to accomplish, or if it did, it was
so fleeting. And now being able to know what brings

(33:06):
me pleasure and who brings me pleasure, I get to
be so intentional that when I do have sex, even
if it's not as much, it's so valuable to me.
It actually restore It's actually restorative as opposed to being
something that drains me, like.

Speaker 1 (33:21):
A restorative yoga class.

Speaker 2 (33:24):
It absolutely is.

Speaker 1 (33:32):
So I want to say, because you said this podcast
is for everyone from the novice to the hoe, But
the thing is, in your sexual journey, in your life,
you can vacillate back and forth between both those things
all the time. So I want to say to the
novices out there that, like, we should always maintain a
beginner's mindset, and there is no such thing as like,
oh I'm too old to learn this, or I should

(33:53):
have should have what a cuta? Because I hear a
lot of that, like I should know better or people
beat themselves up over this, Like just you got to
accept where you're at at your journey because your sexuality
is it as individual to you as your thumbprint.

Speaker 2 (34:07):
Here, love that, love that, Yes, we value A core
value here is curiosity, and so maintaining curiosity wanting to learn.
I always say I'm a I'm a teacher's pet. I'm
not a teacher here. I love to learn, And so
I think that's so important for us to remember, no
matter how how experience, when I experience, you are, to
really keep that beginner's mindset is such a brilliant thing.
My other question for you is about betrayal, because that

(34:30):
obviously comes up here. How do you feel? And you
might be musing you might be working through this, but like,
what are the steps to healing your own heart after betrayal,
especially if you know that you're not going to get
that closure? But you know, I think we all want
We talked about this with Coroma on the show, where
it's like we want the perfect closure, the like picturesque.

(34:52):
We have the conversation, we sit down, we understand why
the person did what they did and all that. But
that's usually nine times in ten, not happening. So what
is what has been your saving grace in moving forward
for yourself?

Speaker 1 (35:04):
Yeah, And a lot of times the person doesn't know
why because they're not on their own. We're all where
we're at on our journey and self discovery, right, So
I try not to be like, oh, he's like that
a lesser point than me journey. I'm just like he's
where he's at, and I'm I still feel hurt, like
I told him, I'm telling the story. It's about to

(35:25):
be a year anniversary and there's you know, I just
I just met someone very handsome, and I feel I
can feel myself like closing up and becoming guarded and
being like really afraid, and it's like, a I have
to be mindful and I have to tell myself it's
okay to move slow. It's ok to move slow, slow,

(35:45):
and to like get to know someone and not miss
the red flag.

Speaker 2 (35:49):
That's a life lesson everything, and it's okay. Everyone wants
to be fast, it's okay to be slow, to move slow.

Speaker 1 (35:55):
Yeah. I take I do jiu jitsu, yeah, and I okay, so.

Speaker 2 (36:01):
I've done it. I have done it since college, but
it was my favorite.

Speaker 1 (36:04):
So my who I trained jiu jitsu with two people.
They're both in the Gracy Brazilian Gracy family. That's like
jiu jitsu Brazilian dynasty got it right. And I learned
a lot from them about life too. But that was
a big lesson on the mat the other day for
me is that even in a situation like that, is
like slow down, slow down and breathe and like, don't

(36:25):
get ahead of myself. Yeah, so and and go through
the process. So with this this betrayal that I had
that was so shocking, well, first I fucking cried. Yeah,
I cried my ass off. I just wept, like on
the floor. Yeah, for a long time. Then I got
I was really angry. I was really angry. I had

(36:46):
so many revenge Oh yeah, I write about all of
it in this revenge called do you know my friend Gila,
she goes by Wheezy. Yeah. So we were on the
phone and I was like, okay, like I want to like,
let's call it. Yeah, like I had lost it. She
was like, I think we got to calm down.

Speaker 2 (37:06):
A break, let's take it, let's go.

Speaker 1 (37:09):
And my mom was like she was the one who
said to me, revenge is the dish best ser of
cold like hold a beat, So I wrote, I mean
I chant. First of all, I took that twenty seven
hundred dollars and I paid for a logo for starfucker
and yes, and I just poured everything into launching this
sub stack incredible and that I knew that like six

(37:33):
months down the road, I would write about it. And
so when I did, I actually gave him a free
subscription for like that month. Yeah, As it was a
three part series that was going back and forth. I
was talking about my dad. I was talking about a
story involving my grandfather and a movie star like I,
and then I wrapped it up with this story about him.
So I gave him a free month so he could

(37:54):
read it because I knew it was all the things
that we would the conversation we never have, and I saw,
you know how you can see on the sub suck
the back end. I know people don't realize that motherfucker
read it eight times in the first twenty four hours.
It came out. Wow, and then I just decided prescriptions, Yeah,
his subscription right, yeah yeah. So I think that's how
I worked through the betrayal, is like it was a

(38:17):
slow process.

Speaker 2 (38:17):
As a slow. You let it be slow.

Speaker 1 (38:19):
I let it be slow. And then even now, like
in dating, it's coming up. It just came up. You
know it's coming up for me.

Speaker 2 (38:26):
Now do you say to the new person that you're
talking to about, like not necessarily all the details, but
are you like, listen, I'm going slow right now or.

Speaker 1 (38:35):
I think I'm going to have to because they just
actually were like what's going on?

Speaker 2 (38:40):
Yeah? There we go.

Speaker 1 (38:41):
Yeah, And it's honestly, it's like I feel a little embarrassed.
I mean I had to get over that because this
kind of betrayal is I'm not the only person this
kind of thing has happened to, but I felt like ashamed.
I felt like, oh I should know better. I'm supposed
to be this like sexpert or whatever.

Speaker 2 (38:56):
Do that, and a lot of ourselves, of our humanity, it's
like we we only know what we know. You know,
you don't know to you get there and you get
through it, and then you get through it and then
you then you do know. But we have to go
through it to to understand what the fuck it is.

Speaker 1 (39:10):
Yeah, but don't I don't know about you, but like
sometimes I beat myself up, Oh all the time. Yeah, like,
you know, you God, You're like, you're so stupid. You
have all these things in life figured out. Why couldn't
you figure this out? Or you know, you compare and despair.

Speaker 2 (39:24):
Of course, and then you like, you know, I'm always
asking questions what advice would I give if I were
my own parent? What advice would I give to myself?
Which is what a phrase my mentor gifted me. And
so when I find myself beating myself up, then I
try to let the parent version of myself come in
and be soft and be like, Okay, you can put
the you can put the belt down, like we don't

(39:45):
have to beat ourselves up, we can chill, like what
is actually happening here? And can I let myself off
the hook? Constantly asking yourself that's for everything? Can you
let yourself off the hook? Because I think a lot
of us will beat ourselves up and that's not really
doing anything, of course, to let it happen, that's part
of being a human. But then can you get to
the place where you let yourself off the hook? Which
is constantly a reminder? Right, It's just like it's it's

(40:08):
not you're always I'm a perfectionist, and I wish I
could like stay perfect all the time and always let
myself off the hook, But I don't. I beat myself
up and then I let myself with the hook and
the cycle.

Speaker 1 (40:17):
That's such good advice. And when you're talking about like
be the parents, so a lot of people don't have
that kind of situation growing up with their parents. I
didn't have parents that were like super nurturing that way
at all. And on my book cover it actually says
reparent reprogram, you know, because I think we need to

(40:38):
do that for ourselves. Absolutely need to treat ourselves the
way we would treat a baby, you know, in those moments,
and be tender with ourselves, like the way we would
to our best friends. Absolutely, we'd never talk to our
best friend the way.

Speaker 2 (40:49):
We talk to ourselves. Absolutely, And that's such an important reminder,
Like we spend a lot of times in our mind
and it's like making a kind place to be, making
a soft, compassionate place to be. And you're not going
to get it perfect all the time. There are times
where you will be rachefel in there. But then can
you catch it and go uh huh, not like that?
Go slow, You're fine, let yourself off the hook. Yeah,

(41:15):
oh my goodness, you want to do some messy mail.

Speaker 1 (41:17):
Let's do some messy mail. Yay, getting deep here.

Speaker 2 (41:21):
Usually we get deep in the end, but I was like,
we're talking, this is great, let's let's let's go for it. Okay,
that means it's time for messy mail. We'll read out
messy patron stories and submissions. As always, your submissions remain anonymous.
This on this first one says sometimes stepping my partner
with a dildo is hotter than using my cock. You

(41:41):
enjoy toys?

Speaker 1 (41:43):
Do I enjoy toys? Sometimes? You know? After the same
acts had, like Houston hid so much hang ups, Yeah,
so many hang ups about toys. Actually, he shamed me
about like masturbating with toys in front of him, which
I thought was so weird because I think one of
the best ways to get to know yeah one's actually
is to ask them to have them show you how

(42:04):
they like to masturbate absolutely, because how you get yourself
off is going to just teach.

Speaker 2 (42:08):
Them absolutely, and you're going to be different than somebody else, right,
because sometimes we try to do what we do with
an old partner, it's like.

Speaker 1 (42:14):
Well that's a different person, Yes, personally.

Speaker 2 (42:16):
Who's in front of me wants something else. Yeah, yeah,
I well one the first time. I don't really use
a lot of toys, and we talked about that on here.
I'm going to try and figure out my relationship to toys.
But some of the hottest sex that I've ever had
has been when a partner introduced toys. So I remember
the first time a partner introduced a dildo and used

(42:37):
it on me and then fuck me after, and it
was so lovely and wonderful, to the point where we
had sex like in the morning, and I had all
this stuff to do that day, and I canceled everything
because I was like, I need to recover. Like I
was like, I went home, I ordered cookies and I
ordered like the tasty things, and I was like, let

(42:58):
me just sit because it's my after character, and let
me sit here and let my legs stop tremmoring because
it was just so hot. And then I recently also
use it again, used a butt plug with a with
a partner who needed help opening their hole in general,
and so we're like, well, let's get you butt plugs
and then let's you know, put it in and use
it and make out and it was, it's so intimate

(43:19):
in a different way. How can I explain it? Like,
obviously it's intimate without the toys, but adding the toys
in requires that much more communication and collaboration. So I
think it probably makes that that much more intimate.

Speaker 1 (43:33):
Yeah, and I think it can be great, especially like
if people, for example, we get that a lot at
the sex set, a lot of women, straight women and saying,
you know, they're curious about anal sucks or their partner
wants to train anal secks, they're not sure. We always
suggest that they go slow, use a lot of loop
and start with toys. Toys, yeah, and start with like,

(43:53):
you know, a smaller size bug, yeah, and move up.
So I think they can, Like toys can be a
great barrier breaker, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:01):
A great berrier breaker, a great way to communicate and
and build those communication muscles. So yeah, I love I
love a toy and and that. So it makes sense
to patron why that was hot hotter for you? This
one says I got tiny boobs, I saw porn for
the first time, and the big book big boob woman
grabbed and bit her own nips. Jealous. To be honest,

(44:23):
have you ever like bitten any part of yourself or
or played like I.

Speaker 1 (44:28):
Was just saying about that. I think I could. Yeah,
when you're like little, and I don't always be like
like who and which of the boys, Because.

Speaker 2 (44:40):
I've tried, so.

Speaker 1 (44:43):
I feel like I would totally try to buy it
a penis.

Speaker 2 (44:46):
I would be like the first thing to try. You
see the point you're like, I had to try at
least once. I tried several times. Break your back like
it was crazy. A boom feels it might be a
little easier to get up there. The dick is just
so far away. I'm always so impressed.

Speaker 1 (45:05):
Yeah, but you know what for smaller sized titties, I've
always heard that like a lot of people love like
the size of a titty that are size of a breast.
Can that can fit in a champagne coop was like
very s small, you know those like vintage, not the
like flutes. Yeah, yeah, so I think about that when

(45:29):
I I like, actually, I think all breasts are beautiful
as Yeah, but I love the idea.

Speaker 2 (45:38):
I love that as a visual A really hot photo shoot.
This one asks would you rather never receive again or
never give again? Sexually? So would you rather never receive
ahead or give head.

Speaker 1 (45:53):
That's hard.

Speaker 2 (45:55):
That is hard.

Speaker 1 (45:56):
I don't want to give it up.

Speaker 2 (46:01):
See, I love receiving head. I love having my ass eating,
but I love giving head and I love eating ass.
So I think my answer is I would rather never
receive again. I know, gasp, I'm saying it, and I
just love sucking dick and eating ass so much. Like

(46:25):
I I listen, I love getting it, but I really
love giving it. It's like it does a lot for me.
So I'm going to say that you're.

Speaker 1 (46:37):
Period.

Speaker 2 (46:37):
I love it. I love it. That makes sense. I
am a stripper. This one says, I'm a stripper. Customer
paid to smell my butthole last night, tried to sniff
my soul out of my ass. Have you ever had
anyone sniff your ass? They didn't say it, but I hope.

Speaker 1 (46:55):
I hope it was like a good you know figure
something I mean, or high three.

Speaker 2 (47:02):
I mean something, And.

Speaker 1 (47:04):
It was like a fast sniff, a fast.

Speaker 2 (47:06):
But I mean, they say, to try to sniff my
soul out of my ass, which feels like.

Speaker 1 (47:09):
A like some Voldemort ship. That's like some serious Voldemort ship.

Speaker 2 (47:18):
I want to try, like now, I want to try
that I'm going to ask my boyfriend to let me
sniff his ass like that, because I wonder, like what,
I wonder what you get. I wonder what it does
like with a tingle, Like what what what is he
experiencing from that sniff? Probably a lot?

Speaker 1 (47:32):
Yeah, probably. I mean everyone's got there. Yeah, everyone's got
the thing.

Speaker 2 (47:37):
I'm so into unlocking new kings because there are things
you go, I'll never do that, I'll never and then
you try it and you're like, oh, I kind of
like this. Like I said on the show, I have
a foot fetish now, which I never thought that I
would be into.

Speaker 1 (47:51):
Yeah, if you're if you don't want to like go you.

Speaker 2 (47:54):
Know, full four, I can just like shake feet picks.
And then there's a there's a friend of mine who
has an account that is just all feet picks, and
I like, if you were my friend girl, well, also
we're friends, we could still for sometfits. I love sucking feet.
I like the more my face, I like the more
my chest. So anyways, all that to say, maybe the

(48:16):
holeby a thing that I would enjoy. Is there anything
that you any kinks or things that you've discovered that
you're like, oh, I never thought I would like that,
but I do well.

Speaker 1 (48:25):
I always like to think that one I think I'm
going to be really wild in my sixties, yes, And
I also like to think with sex in general that
I want I want to be open, even if I
maybe like come across as more like vanilla now or
in this phase of my life that I don't want
to rule out something that like might not be my

(48:46):
kink right now. Very like open too, But I think
for me, I need to be in a committed monogaal
partnership to like feel safe and trusting. So I would
say never say.

Speaker 2 (48:57):
Never, never say never.

Speaker 1 (48:58):
I love you know what I want to do? What
I want to do pie in the face. I want
to like pie someone in the face and have them
pie me in the.

Speaker 2 (49:05):
Face and then like eat it and look it off
of each other.

Speaker 1 (49:07):
I mean, I might just be satisfied. I want to
do a dance a dance off pie fight a dance Okay,
but I'm going to give credit to my friend Dita Vontiz,
who like came up with this idea like years ago,
years ago, she used to do these like a pie
fight dance off parties where you would have you would
have a partner and like you would pick a song

(49:30):
right and you like kind of er like you know,
you routine at the end of it, you key line
pie each other in the face. And I just like,
I don't know, there's just something like very satisfying about
Like I like throwing rotting fruit when I'm frustrated. I
just love it, Like rotting fruit.

Speaker 2 (49:48):
Do you keep rotting fruit?

Speaker 1 (49:49):
Just its like it's going or like you know, like
I've I've done it with papayas, I've done pomegranates, like
a concrete wall. Just very satisfying because it everywhere.

Speaker 2 (50:01):
Reminds you of the TikTok videos of people rolling down
bottles down the stairs and they break, Yeah, to see
which one's gonna break. There's something satisfying about the destruction.

Speaker 1 (50:10):
I have not done any of this for content. Just
do it for like to like kind of like get
my frustration out. Yeah, I guess, I don't know. It
just makes me feel really good. So I might have
like a food.

Speaker 2 (50:22):
Yeah, there might be like a food little kink or something.
I love that. Yeah, you should explore that.

Speaker 1 (50:27):
I just heard a really good trick. There's this famous
woman named Pamela Harriman. Churchill, who like had all all
of these lovers in the twentieth century. She's dead now,
but just reading her biography, and she kept a bowl
of ice cubes next to her bed for oral sex,
which she learned from a legendary another legendary playboy lover

(50:49):
called Olicon. Okay, so you take you put the ice
cubes in your mouth, and you know it's either like
you keep the ice cube in your mouth when giving
a blowjob, or you make your mouth really cold.

Speaker 2 (51:02):
Temperature play, yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:03):
Temperature play.

Speaker 2 (51:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:05):
I thought that was kind of she because she was like,
you know, this fabulous woman with all these she just
keeps it buy houses, jewelry and painting. So I'm imagining
the bedside table in this like well appointed bedroom of course,
you know, with like I don't know, chintz or something
like silver ice.

Speaker 2 (51:24):
Pocket, and you know it's it's not just an ordinary
ice but.

Speaker 1 (51:27):
It's like one long man. He puts it in, wishes
it around.

Speaker 2 (51:38):
I have new goals. I love this. I have new goals.
Oh my god, buy a nice budget. Okay. This one
says I got five loads in three days with three
guys and recounted it to my boyfriend for his request
turns him on. I you you're monogamous, Yeah, is there?
But is there anything that would turn you on about

(52:01):
hearing something about your partner's past at all?

Speaker 1 (52:03):
Totally? Yeah, totally and I totally have. I'm like really
into homer erotica, like especially like vintage. Yeah, but I
love like there's I mean, I love like sixties and
seventies gay porn so hot, like way more male than
female for some reason. But I just think it's like, yeah,
very erotic. And I remember when I was going through

(52:26):
my divorce, like one of the first guys I was with,
he was you know, I would like make him tell
me like all his stories. Yeah, being with men. I
just found that so hot.

Speaker 2 (52:37):
I love that. I find it hot knowing about My
husband does not like he doesn't like seeing it. I
think he's fine with hearing it, but I loved I
just loved when people talk to me about what they're
into and what they've been, what they've done. Like I
don't get jealous around that stuff. I do find it
sexy and inside of polyamory. With my husband, we don't

(52:58):
talk about other stuff, but with my friend and sometimes
we'll talk about other things and it's a kink. It's
a vibe for sure. Yeah, it's yeah, I don't know
what what is hot about that? I guess it's like.

Speaker 1 (53:09):
A it's kind of like erotica.

Speaker 2 (53:10):
Yeah, I was gonna say it's like reading or listening
to erotica. But then it's like your partner which you
care about, and there's I don't know, there's something.

Speaker 1 (53:17):
Well, it's like a different way of consuming pornography. Yes,
like you know, maybe more. It's like more intimate and
also acts on your brain in a different way. Yeah,
than like the visual like just scrolling porn does.

Speaker 2 (53:30):
Sure, that makes sense. I love that. Now I'm thinking
about when I can tell my boyfriend this one says
was supposed to sleep with my sixty two year old friend,
but I'm back with my fifty two year old friend.
I'm twenty eight. I'm curious what is the biggest age

(53:52):
gap or like what like what's your Is there like
a limit for an age gap between partners? You think?

Speaker 1 (53:57):
We asked this on the We have a also and
we have a Monday question of the Week on the
sex ad Instagram, which is at the sex Said, and
one of our most popular ones was what's the biggest
age gap, and that was I always love reading all
the comments on it. Let's see what was my personal
big age gap. I think we're obviously in a pretty misogynic,
misogynistic culture, so there's a lot of I mean, even

(54:19):
though you have movies like Baby Girl and everything, now,
like people really have trouble with an older woman any
younger man in the way that they don't with the reverse.
Does I have even friends in public relationships, I mean
that wasn't their intention or whatever, and the women just
get trash, totally trashed, even if I know that they're

(54:41):
actually like a successful, loving, long term couple. So I've
definitely went through I definitely had some younger men. I definitely,
I definitely, I've definitely done the younger man. I'm not
trying to do that. I was kind of like, you know,
I need someone who has like seeing reference points or
like music. You know, that's fair references, et cetera. But

(55:03):
I think it's hot. I have a problem with.

Speaker 2 (55:06):
It, yeah, because I'm always like, what's the quality of
the relationship, you know, like and what are we you know,
I don't really have a Probably when my biggest age gap,
which is the same my boyfriend is ten years younger
than me, and then I've also dated ten years older
than me. So that's probably the biggest age gap that
I've done.

Speaker 1 (55:23):
But I've done more than that younger.

Speaker 2 (55:25):
Okay, I'm down. Like you know, I also think there's
a difference between like, you know, fucking versus dating versus you know, like,
which again still boils down to what is that person's history,
what are they coming to the table with, because you know,
some of us have been through different things and so

(55:45):
we show up in a different I want to say
this correctly, which is not that you're more mature, but
a more aligned version of maturity. So sometimes somebody might
be younger and maybe in their twenties, but they've been
through some things that really allows them to connect with
somebody who's in their forties or fifties or sixties in
a different way. And so like I'm always like, what's

(56:07):
who are the people I don't the age is, you know,
the age and obviously consensual whatnot, But who are the
people that are in the relationship is what always matters.

Speaker 1 (56:14):
And sometimes like I like to learn something from relationship, right,
I really get off on a person's brain, you know,
So if.

Speaker 2 (56:21):
There's nothing sexier than somebody's fucking brain.

Speaker 1 (56:24):
Yeah, I'm a saor sexual. Yes, yeah. Sometimes you know
if someone is like a bit older and learned, and
I mean along with my erotic library fantasy. Yeah, definitely
like the professor of fantasy.

Speaker 2 (56:36):
Of course I love a professor the learning. It's the learning.
I always say that I'm turned on by anyone who
can tell me about things that I don't know about.
So if you're like a tech nerd or you're like
giving me all the you could tell me all about
my computer, I will. I was like your dick. Will
you want to talk about gardening? I don't know how
to guarden. I will suck your dick. I just tell

(56:57):
me about things that like be passionate about something and
like no all about it it really. Yeah, it's a
pussy jingle, as I got from Lily Womble from Date Bras,
and I love that term. Actually it gives me a
pussy dingle.

Speaker 1 (57:09):
Absolutely yes, wet panty, wet panties.

Speaker 2 (57:13):
Liz. Thank you for being.

Speaker 1 (57:14):
Here, Thank you for having so much fun, so much fun.

Speaker 2 (57:18):
All right, I'll see you next time.

Speaker 1 (57:19):
Bye.

Speaker 2 (57:33):
Well, you know we're hose here, but hose with heart.
So before we go, let me speak to yours. I
had such an incredible time talking to Liz, as you saw.
You know, usually we get into messy mail and then
we dump dive into the deeper messy key, key, the
messy conversation. But that messy story, honey, that was a

(57:55):
messy story, and it just led. I was like, let's
just fallow the flow because there was just so much
good juice and so much to talk about. I'm gonna
start here, which might feel like a random place to start,
but we were talking about sex work, and you know,
there's such a stigma around sex work, and so I
just want to say boldly, sex work is work. And

(58:15):
so if you are engage, if you are a sex worker,
I want you to know that you are respected, loved
and valued here. And if you are somebody who hires
sex workers, you know, I trust that you are respectful
and loving and kind and compassionate. And even if you're
not somebody who is hiring sex workers, I you know,
I think that it is such a tenet and of

(58:37):
value here that we distigmatize these things that we've been
raised to think, are you know, beneath us or below
us or you know, not polite or whatever the fuck
the terms are. But sex work is work, and I'm
really grateful that, you know, we're living in a time

(58:59):
where there can be more safety around it. Obviously it's
not perfect, but you know, I think that we listen.
I got friends who do it, who are on only fans,
who you know, dominatrices and you know, all the things,
and I love them. They are also the coolest fucking
people with the best fucking stories.

Speaker 1 (59:20):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (59:20):
And so I just want to again boldly say sex
work is work. I really love this conversation around energy
around sex and we were posing, you know, are you
doing this for pleasure or to escape? Are you numbing
or are you engaging this concept of mindless consumption and
fucking to feel better about yourself as opposed to having

(59:42):
sex that's restorative and not draining. I can't, you know,
like we're socialized to think that, you know, sex is
just putting a dick in in a volva, you know,
putting your dick in some hole, and that's what it is,
and it's so much more than that. You cannot deny
whether you are really spiritual, or you're an atheist, or
you're you know, full on Christian or your Muslim or

(01:00:04):
whatever your religious energetic beliefs are. I think that it
is important for us to know that when we are
engaging with sex, that is a transfer of energy. Even
if it's you know, a glory hall. Okay, even if
you just you know, you're in the dark room, even
if you're at a sex party, it's still an exchange
of energy. And so you get to be intentional about it.

(01:00:25):
You get to have anonymous sex, you get to be
in dark rooms and have sex, you get to fuck
in the alley way, you can do all these things,
but it's about doing it with intention, like knowing why
you're doing it, what are you going after If it
is to escape the name that for yourself, know that
for yourself, so you know how you're coming into the interaction,
and so that you can also keep yourself emotionally and

(01:00:47):
physically safe and the partner or partners that you're engaging
with the same. So I just think, you know, it's
not about what kind of sex is right or we
all have our fantasies and our things that we like
and our kinks and our fetishes all that stuff. But
I think making sure that you have an intention behind it,
and you know, when you're engaging versus trying to escape

(01:01:09):
doesn't mean that you can't. You know, listen, an escape
is lovely sometimes, but do it intentionally. Oh I love
this thing because a lot of us do it. You know,
this idea that a relationship and I've been talking about
this on subsec I'm been talking about this on Instagram,
But this idea that a relationship makes as whole and
kind of underneath that is getting into a relationship with

(01:01:32):
someone so you can point to them and say, there's
my worth that, Like, I want to step that out
sometimes whenever I hear people very and there is no judgment, noe.
Obviously this is a safe space. But like when I
hear people talking about wanting a relationship, wanting a relationship,
wanting a relationship, but I'm not hearing them poke at
what their desire for that relationship is, right, it could

(01:01:54):
because I don't want to be lonely or whatever, But like, uh,
what's happening underneath that vibrating underneath that? Is there a
part of you that doesn't feel worthy and you hope
this partner is going to make you feel worthy? Is
there a part of you that feels that you are
not you are less than if you are not in
a relationship, which, by the way, those feelings make sense,

(01:02:15):
not because they're true, but because that's how we've been socialized.
That's what we're taught in every fucking movie that you watch,
every fucking TV show, every book, there's always, most of
the time, nine times out of ten, there is some
sort of romantic relationship. And I talk about this. I
think we're gonna talk about this on next week's episode.
But just like this, like there are movies that I've

(01:02:36):
watched or rom coms that I've watched where like the
protagonists is living their best life and they're you know,
the movie is actually perfect without them finding a mate,
but they have to find a mate by the end
of it. And that is so frustrating to me because
it just signals that we are not enough if we
are in romantic partnership, which also completely negates all the

(01:02:56):
other partnerships that we're in, all the other relationships we're in.
Right that romantic Bell hook says it right, romantic relationship
is not the number one right community is like, that's
the relationship that we should be we should be putting
on the pedestal romantic relationship gets to be part of
our community, but it doesn't need to be the be all,
end all. And so as you pursue relationships, as you

(01:03:19):
pursue wanting to find your person or your person's I
think it's the same thing that we're talking about with
and with intentional sex. Be intentional about your relationship pursuit.
Understand why you want it. Understand if it's because I
would like to experience this thing, because it's a yearning
I have, it's a desire that I have, or is
it I want this thing because I don't feel like

(01:03:41):
I am enough without it. I feel like I'm broken
if I don't have it. I feel like I'm not
worthy or lovable if I don't have it. You know,
know that's the difference, because it'll it will color your
pursuit differently, and one will feel expansive and the other
one will feel burdensome and heavy. And I think when

(01:04:03):
it comes to dating and love, you know, obviously there
will be conflict and tension, and that's part of growth.
But I hope the base of it, the foundation of
it is expansion and love. We're not trying to get
somebody to complete us. We want them to expand us.
I also want to point out we should always maintain
a beginner's mindset. Your sexuality, as list said, is as

(01:04:25):
individual to you as your thumbprint. But that is a
component I'm gonna say again here, which is curiosity. But yeah,
it's like, no matter how experienced you are, like, don't
feel like once you think that you know everything, then
maybe it's a ramp, you know, like life is over.
If you feel like you understand and know everything, then

(01:04:45):
you're done. Like, okay, then what else is there? But
if you can maintain oh, there's more for me to learn,
more ways in which I can evolve, more ways in
which I can grow, more ways in which I can expand,
more things. I can try, Things that maybe I wasn't
curious about ten years ago. Maybe I'm curious about now.
Things that I thought I wouldn't like a year ago,
I might like now. Right, So I think always being

(01:05:07):
intentional about you know, poking and pulling a thread and
asking the question again, Okay, I I didn't, And I'm
gonna use this about like I don't like piss play. Okay,
that's okay, nothing wrong with that. But maybe in five
years you were the different partner. Life has happened different
whatever You've explored some mother kinks and you might pose
a question, again, do I like piss play? You might

(01:05:28):
come up with the same answer, no, I don't, But
you might also come up with the answer yeah, I do,
or maybe I'm like curious about it, and that's great,
that's okay, you know what I mean. Like, I think
it's like, how do we create space to continue exploring
ourselves and continue learning about ourselves? And how do we
you know, as I say at the top of the
messy mandates, things get to shift, change, evolve, right, so

(01:05:49):
like allow yourself to not just your opinions to shift,
change and evolve, but your pleasure to shift change and evolve,
and how you approach it and how you approach what
sex means to you with betrayal. Uh And when Liz said,
we said, it's okay to move slow so you don't
miss the red flags. Aw aw okay. I think that's

(01:06:15):
a lesson in life. And I've been saying that to
myself recently. Go slow, you know, slow, and Liza said,
slow down and breathe so you don't get ahead of yourself.
There's such a We are such a culture of immediacy
post that photo, Now, deliver my food, now, give my
Amazon package now. Right, We're such a now now now immediacy, immediacy.

(01:06:36):
And I don't think that our nervous systems are built
for a now moment. I think that keeps us a
little too activate, a little too in flight or fight mode. Right,
It's just like where I think what we could benefit
from is more breath, more permission to move slow. As

(01:07:00):
they say, somebody's urgency is not your emergency. Right, So,
just because the world feels very urgent, feels very like, oh, immediately, immediately, immediately,
doesn't mean that you need to adopt that. You get
to very clearly say, okay, thank you so much. I
hear your urgency, I feel your urgency. I'm gonna take
a beat. I'm gonna take some time, some intentional time.

(01:07:21):
Maybe I don't need to respond to that today. Maybe
I can respond to it tomorrow. I mean that that
doesn't need to get done tonight. Maybe you can get
done by the end of the week. You know, I
don't need to be healed now, you know, maybe I
can give myself time and grace and take the next
however long it takes for me to move through this,
and I can go slow so you don't miss the

(01:07:42):
red legs. Okay, And that's the same thing when you
are starting to date someone. You don't need to meet
somebody and marry them tomorrow. You know, Hey, if you know,
you know, great. But like that, we don't have to
be moved in with each other by the end of
the month. We get to go slow. We get to
learn each other, we get to experience each other and
make really intentional choices. And also if we're going slow,

(01:08:05):
we get to feel our defaults get activated and triggered.
What are old patterns that need to be broken? If
we're moving at the light of speed, we can much
more easily fall into old patterns that are no longer
serving us. But if we intentionally go slow, we can
catch those old patterns and choose a different choice, which

(01:08:26):
is invaluable. And the last thing I will say, or
maybe the second to leave, there's so much that I
got from this conversation. I get from all these conversations.
I really yeah, I really love my job. I really
love it here, I love being here with you. I
love these conversations. It really just makes me, and I
hear it from you. You. You know, when y'all email
me and DM me, or you see me in the

(01:08:48):
street or at the gym or whatever it is, I
hear it from you as well. But I just feel
like I get to live a more liberated life. I
get to to live a more free life from having
these conversations because I'm learning so much from all these
incredible spirits and souls and minds that are sitting across

(01:09:09):
from me talking about the things we're talking about. Anyways,
can you let yourself off the hook? Can you give
yourself grace? You know, sometimes a lot of times if
you're like me harshest critic, I am my harshest critic.
You know, Like people can say whatever they want on
the internet online to my face, it will never be
as harsh as what I will say about myself. And

(01:09:30):
that's something that I that I am. I am actively
and always working on, Like, how can I give myself
grace if I mess that up or I didn't, you know,
nail that thing like I wanted to nail it, or
I didn't you know, Can I let myself off the
hook and say, hey, this is part of the journey.
I don't need to be perfect here, right. This whole
point of being messy, right is to leave perfection at

(01:09:52):
the fucking door and let yourself show up as you are.
And sometimes that version of yourself is gonna be a
motherful ten, honey, you might be e be a fifteen,
and sometimes that version of yourself might be a five
or a four, And one is not better than the other.
It is all part of you, all part of your learning,
all part of your growth. So can you let yourself

(01:10:14):
off the hook, and can you give yourself some grace
when things are not exactly how you planned it? This
is not don't hold yourself accountable, right, It's different, right,
like hold yourself accountable. You know, if you create a rupture,
repair it, hold yourself accountable. But you don't have to

(01:10:35):
beat yourself up. Which takes me to this last point,
which is talk to yourself like you talk to your bestie.
You live in your mind all the time. So make
it a kind place to be, make it a compassionate place,
make it a sweet place, make it a soft place. Again,

(01:10:55):
doesn't mean you can't hold yourself accountable. You can't learn,
but you beating yourself up or talking to yourself like trash,
like the gutter, like your enemy is not going to
get you the results that you want. Yeah, and so
if you find yourself talking crazy to yourself, do what
Liz does and throw rotten fruit. They'll all release that frustration, okay,

(01:11:19):
or find your way to release that. I was actually
the other night in bed like spiraling. I have this
really cool opportunity that I can't wait to share with you.
It's happening. Actually this comes out on Thursday, and I
will be doing it on this Thursday. Just a wonderful
opportunity to love on a friend and honor them in
front of a very incredible room of people. And so

(01:11:40):
I've been working on what that speech is and what
that what my remarks will be, and I'm really happy
with how it's it's shaping out. And then I was
going to bed last night and started to just like
negative talk myself and I had to go, Okay, I
hear you. I hear you. You're trying to protect me,
but let's we don't have to catastrophize this. You know,

(01:12:02):
we don't have to make this a hard place to be.
You're doing great, you did well. I hear you. Let's
release that. So whatever, that's how I released. You know,
my version of throwing through the wall is more so
talking to myself. But for you, it might be go
on a roller coaster for you. It might be doing
a bunch of push ups for you, might be going
on a little walk for you. It might be you know,

(01:12:25):
listening to a particular artist or album. But find the
ways that you can release your frustration. Okay, that's it.
That was a lot, but I was just like taking
notes and I was like, oh, I gotta hit this.
I gotta hit this, I gotta hit that. So thank
y'all for indulging with me. I love you so much.

(01:12:46):
You can find me on Instagram as well at Brandon
Kyle Goodman. You can find our podcast at tell Me
Something Messy, and you can join our community on the
Messy Mondays sub stack. When you subscribe, you'll get weekly posts,
recommendation on sex and self and so much more. Also,
I want to hear from you, so send your topic ideas,
your messy stories, your submissions, your game ideas to tell

(01:13:10):
Me Something Messy at gmail dot com. You can also
call us at six six nine sixty nine Messy. That
is six six nine six ninety six three seven seven nine,
rate review and share this podcast with all your HOE
and aspiring HOE friends really really helps the show out
all right. Until next time, ask about the politics of

(01:13:32):
that dick before you make it spit, make sure they
eat the kitty. Buffore what they beat the kitty before
fuckation or succation. Communication. And in case you haven't heard
it yet, today you are so deeply loved. I love you, hie.
Thank you so much for listening to tell Me Something Messy.
If you all enjoyed the show, send the episode to

(01:13:53):
someone else who might like it. Tell Me Something Messy
was executive produced by Ali Perry, Gabrielle Collins and You'll
truly Our producer and editor is Vince Dejohnny. For more
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