October 23, 2025 • 53 mins
World-renowned writer, actor and producer Lena Waithe is back on the show to dive into her place of worship, parenting and allowing oneself to grow. Plus, some moments of wisdom and guidance for meditation. But first — Can Lena name the movie these famous quotes are from?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
You're listening to tell me something Messy with Brandon, Kyle
Goodman and iHeart podcasts on the Outspoken Network. Talking about relationships,
sex and identity always reminds me that being a human
is messy.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
So I wanted to create a compassionate.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Space where we feel less alone and embrace our mess together,
the funny, the vulnerable, the cringe, and even the kinky,
because every part of who we are matters. So don't
be shy, baby, tell me something messy. Messy patrons, come on, baby,
welcome to the show. I am your messy mom, Brandon
Kyle Goodman, and you know what that means. It is
(00:34):
time for a guest. Now, while they get situated, we
will get our messy.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Key.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Key started with a whole manifesto, so repeat after me
aloud or in your head. Grant me the serenity to
unpack my shame, the courage to heal, the wisdom to
know that sex is not about penetration, the audacity to
advocate for my pleasure and boundaries, the strength to not
call my ex that fuck boy, fuck girl, or fuck bay,
(00:58):
for it is better to masturbabe by myself in peace
then to let someone play in my motherfucking face. Let
the hommunity say Holujah. Today's guest needs no introduction, but
I'm gonna give it to her anyway. I'm so happy
to have Lena Waite, the Emmy Award winning writer, actor,
and producer who reshaped TV with her powerful Thanksgiving episode
(01:21):
on Master of None. She went on to create The
Shy Twenties and a groundbreaking film, Queen and Slim. The
thing I love most about Lena is that she uses
every space she touches to amplify a black, queer and
underrepresented voices. She is my friend, my mentor, and one
of the producers on my stage show ho Church, which
is playing until November eighth. Y'all please help me. Welcome
(01:44):
into our messy well, I guess it's our messy studio, Lena. Wait, hey, Lena,
I'm good, Welcome back to the show.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Happy to be back city.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
I know we're in New York now in the red room.
Come on, okay, matches the branding you see?
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Hello?
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Okay, something messy period. Okay, before we get started, you know,
we have to do our messy mandates. Okay, so as
you remember, things get to be in processed. Any opinions,
your thoughts shared get the right to shift or change
or involve today, tomorrow, ten years from now. And if
during the kiki something feels too personal or unintentionally offense,
we use the same word. Football gives us a second
(02:20):
to pause and address accordingly.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Sound good, sounds amazing, beautiful.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Let's start a game. Okay, okay, this game is called
what's that movie?
Speaker 1 (02:27):
What movie is that from? Okay, so I'm gonna give
you a dramatic reading, and you're gonna tell.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Me what movie you think it's very dramatic. Ye, it's
gonna be right. This one is the family fucked my husband,
that soulful.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Hey, y uh, this one is only give me once.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
I know maybe he only things.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
I give you eleven fucking years of my life and
you tell me you're leaving me for a white one.
Wait to excel.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Come on, there you go this one.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
I know you'll know I'm pricking up for you, specially okay, Uh,
stony back then acting all stank of thank off.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
There we go. This is what This might be tricky,
but I cursed the day you were born.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Say it again, I cursed the day you were blessed, Charlotte.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
That was my Charlotte Wace and this is one is uh,
just because you can't see the air doesn't keep you
from breathing, and just because you can't see God doesn't
keep you from belief appreciers.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
What damn? Okay?
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Jeremiah, Yeah, Jeremiah.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Yeah, you want to hear you? You win my unconditional love,
and you can get a lollipop.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Come on, I feel like I already had your conditional
you did.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Of course, always lollipops.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Okay, I want this one beautiful Okay, And if y'all
have prompts or messy games, you can email tell me
something messy at gmail dot com. Which let's get into
this like messy combo, which is you know, you're producing
my show.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Ho Church, which one of the producers.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
One of the producers on it honored to be thank you,
which is so exciting, and it's all about kind of
reclaiming or rebuilding church inside of ourselves. And so let
me start with a really simple question.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
What is a gospel song you want to hear in
the club?
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Gospel song? I like a mix of it's like like
never would have made it, and it's like but it's
put to Obviously that's a slow song. Yeah, but and
I'm sorry if I please let me know who the
DJ was or who the person did this like mix
(04:34):
or they put it to like sort of this sort
of house and and that kind of became very popular
with people. Yeah, and I really love that, you know, Yeah,
I love that. I love like gospel music put to
gay house music.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Yes, this is the best. Mine is the Clark Sisters.
You brought the sunshine whenever that were Like, I've been
just so many clubs and it starts.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Playing and of course like Jesus and everyone is lit.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
And also what's the Kirk Franklin joint that people always
do at the end of the club too.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
I mean, there's so many good ones to do.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
I know, but damn it's it's one of his. Is
a lot of people kind of get into it too.
And it's not even stomp.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
I was gonna say, it's because I feel.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
That something else. It's something else, is it? Like, I
don't know, it's not. I don't know. But there's some
Kirk Franklin stuff in the library where. That's why people
got mad at him, because they felt like his church
music was too secular.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
That's what I kind of I mean So in the
show we actually talk about Kirk Franklin and basically tell
the story about repenting for masturbating to gay porn. And
I would turn on Kirk Franklin's track nine on the
New Nation Project now, which is.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
Very slow masturbating to gospel music. Well, no, it was
after I masturbated. What's happening.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
I'm pretty evolved, you know.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
No, it was after that I would put on Kirk
but that whole album. I remember my grandmother not loving
Kirk Franklin because my grandmother was more traditional old school,
old school, old school like family Radio. I don't know
if you know what that is. It was like, ah,
I forget who ran it. Actually the person who ran
it Fred or something like that, I look it up.
But he was one of those people that was like
(06:18):
the rapture is coming, like even though my mother didn't
talk about rapture stuff like this particular Christian radio station,
the head of it was very much in that like
the world, Yeah, the world's coming to it a kind
of stuff. So Kirk Franklin was like my way into
gospel music. But like obviously my grandmother wasn't in to it.
But it was because it brought in you know, hip
(06:39):
hop pop house under these you know, beautiful, beautifully written
gospel songs.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Yeah, I mean so interesting. A lot of traditionalists sort
of didn't love Kirk Franklin and I think but for
a lot of young people, he made it okay to
bump gospel into it or sort of the sort of
the gate into it. And I just sort of feel like,
how could one be mad at that?
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Very yeah, do you remember what was what's been your
spiritual journey? Because I think they were both turk me
from wrong. But I don't really consider myself religious or
so spiritual.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
But were you raised in the church?
Speaker 3 (07:17):
You know, always say I come from a family of
lazy Christians that they would go to church, you know,
as often as they could, And we went to Christ
Universal Temple in Chicago, and very it was also a
mega church by the time I got older, when they
were when my grandmother first starting to go started to
follow Johnny Coleman, who was a black woman minister. It
(07:37):
was a very rare thing at that time. She was
in a smaller church in Chicago, and then over time
because she also preached prosperity and us having the keys
of the kingdom and not and also she preached abundance,
not scarcity, and so therefore that was really important. You know,
you would go and you would say, like, we deserve
all the nice things and wonderful things it has to offer.
(08:01):
And my grandmother really took to that. My mom then
obviously took to that, and my mother brought my sister
and I to go to church as often as she could,
but you know, we would go to, like, you know,
the children's section of the church, and sometimes we go
sit in the adult church. But I think what was
very impactful about that was to see a black woman
be the founder and leader and minister of a black church.
(08:22):
I mean literally. Henry Lewis Gaye did a whole book
about the history of the Black Church, and my minister
was mentioned in the book. Wow. So when I read
it and obviously emailed him back and I said, love
the book. Thought it was amazing, I said, but also
it was very blown away that the minister I came
up under was mentioned. And obviously she should have been
one of the very few black women to be ahead
of her own ministry. And so for me, I was
(08:44):
more so empowered by that idea. But also she was
preaching prosperity, which was very interesting and very unique. Even
like Reverend Ike also came by, and like like Ben
Verreen would come to the church and Dela Reze would
come to the church. Wow, come on, It was just
sort of like it was very there was there was
a lot of like influencers, you know, coming into the church. Yeah,
(09:04):
so I was raised to understand the significance of the
pulpit and the power of it and also sort of
the spoken word more so than it being like fire
and damnation. And also I wasn't in the church where
they were acting like they never even mentioned the word
homosexuality to say, so it wasn't bad or yeah, it
just wasn't even talking to talked about my church either.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
So my grandmother, my grandmother was like the first woman
of African descent to be ordained into our church's denomination
or wide. And so I grew up only kind of
understanding women at the head of the church. And it
was kind of strange when I saw, oh, mostly it's men,
I just assumed that it was always else there was women.
But I think what she also never preached about homosexuality.
(09:48):
In fact, it was really weird when that finally that
rupture happened with my mom, which happened much later.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
It was strange because I never grew.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Up hearing anyone in the house talk about homosexuality, like,
no kind of position. It was always about like love, grace, abundance, prosperity.
But I think also what was interesting as to writers
is the church is kind of I realized where I
learned to write. Especially there's a point where when we
got a computer, I started typing my grandmother's sermons for her,
(10:17):
and I typed a bunch of her old sermons, and
as a kid, I was like, ah, but I realized
I was learning how to speak and how to write,
because that's literally I think what church is. Churches is,
and I mean it's like, respectfully, it's another theater. Yeah,
it's like it's storytelling.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
It is absolutely theater because also you have to keep
the people entertained, yes, know, for them to keep coming back.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
And pastors are you know they are they have to
be the great orators.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
You know.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
There's like to me, I think comedians and pastors are
also sort of in a similar box, yes, and that
they sort of have to be society's third eye, you know.
And and you know, preachers have a lot of power
and so much influence, and they also but they are
still people.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
And that's what I think we always forget is that.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Well, one I want to say, I remember this article
I think it was like the New Yorker years ago
that said comedy comedians are profits as well, and I
think there is something beautiful about that, where like as
these storytellers, you are also again the third eye showing
the world what they're not able to see, which is
very much what a pastor does, translating what's happening. But
then I think, and maybe this also relates to kind
of celebrity culture, like for me growing up a pKa,
(11:25):
pastors kind of being my first understanding of celebrity because
inside of the church, like you're the pastor's kid, like
there's a certain level of.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Eyes on you, with energy, certain lineage.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yeah, but then there's a perfectionism, right, we see pastors
and their families is infallible, right, and we and then
we take everything they say as a law as opposed
to tell me this thing, pastor, and then how do
I critically think about it and how do I apply
it to myself?
Speaker 2 (11:52):
But there's a lot.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Of taking it as it is and not necessarily interrogating it.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
Yeah, you and I know from being in therapy and
all that kind of stuff, is that one sort of
way of being or existing does not work for all. Right,
And oftentimes I think, particularly when people are helping to
helping you to understand the Bible translated however you want
(12:20):
to say it, is that everybody's in a different journey.
And oftentimes when you're in a congregation, you're part of
a herd. The idea is that what works for my
neighbor should work for me as well, right, and we
all know that that's true, not how life was and
so and also you talk about my journey in terms
of religion and spirituality. Yes, I don't consider myself to
(12:40):
be uber religious. No, I don't. I don't go to
church anywhere I used to. I found it funny because
when I came to LA I was looking for a
home church, if you will, because I was so used
to going to church when I was in Chicago, Like
that's what I did. But and then it was kind
of odd for a Sunday to come. I'm like, I'm
just chilling up the ship. I'm not, I'm doing it.
I'm just rest.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Cool.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
So I did find a church, you know, that I enjoy,
and then sort of the pastor kind of left and
so then I think I realized, oh, okay, I don't
know if I need that anymore. Yeah, And I think
I still want to know that there is something bigger
at work. You want to be in touch with my humility.
(13:18):
And I really just recently am reading this beautiful book
called Baldwin The Love Story written by Nicholas Boggs, a
wonderful biography about James Baldwin. I encourage everybody to read it.
There was a moment where he was meeting with the
members of the Nation of Islam. They were almost sort
of almost wonder like if they could convert him in
a way, like say, could you be one of ours?
And they sort of asked him, the Honorable Elijah Muhammad
(13:39):
asked him what religion do you belong to? Like, who
do you belong to? And Baldwin said, I'm a writer
and that reading that, I did exactly that with the
book in my hands and said, there it is. That
is my religion. If I worship anywhere, it's really at
the seat of my laptop, trying to be a vessel
(14:01):
for whatever messages I'm supposed to convey. Yes, and that
to me is the most spiritual place I can be
when I'm trying to open up myself to the universe,
to the higher power. So that way I can put
something on the page that is not for me to
be liked. It is not for me to get glory,
but for me to get free.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Wait, I want to send them for a second, because
I think you know, like for us it might be writing,
but like for everybody, they have their thing that is
their religion. Correct, whether it's you know, your you are
make bulls pottery or your painter or your dancer or
just like we all have these things.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
That are or you're a janitor or your janitor yeah whatever.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
It is like the thing that wherever you find your center,
whatever you wherever you find space to breathe correct, and
where you can hear not just yourself, but your lineage
and the people around you, like anything that kind of
makes you exhale a little bit.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
And your lineage isn't always blood.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
One thousand percent. M I was saying this to some
friends we were we were at like a warehouse party. Uh,
and then Donna Summer came on and we both looked
at each other and we were like, Donna Summer is
(15:24):
here right now.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Now listen.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
That might be a little bit of drugs, but it
was also the energy of like, oh, right, like I
don't have to know this person for them to be
my ancestor correct, no, right, Like I would hope that
when I passed, if somebody was like, oh Brandon co
gum and like I feel connected to them, They're like, yeah,
I'll show up for you know, I don't have to
know you, Like James Ball, when you call on James,
you call on Tony Morrison, you call on whoever these
(15:47):
people are, whether you know them personally, whether you knew
them or not, it's kind of irrelevant.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Yeah, yeah, I always love the way ball and talks
about the people that produced me, and he would say
Harlem produced me, yeah, and so me And then he
doesn't know every single person in Harlem, but he said
every single person in Harlem helped to shape the person
he became. And so I think that's why I love
doing legacy talk or talking to because I can sit
(16:11):
across from we Lever Shan and say you were my generations.
Dorothy Dandridge Leniel Horn. Yes, and you you were the
epeneme of beauty and that helped to shape my idea
of it. Yes, And so I think it's just important
that we understand the lineage from once we came you know,
Paris is Burning.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
We watched that documentary like.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
Multiple times a year to where we belind ourselves who
we come from. Yes, because when you hear the words
that they were saying then in the mouths of people
that necessarily I don't know if they were thought of
in terms of the inheritance. You know, those words and
those behaviors are passed down, but people are just sort
of taking pieces of our inheritance and don't even know
where it's coming from. And so for me, I don't
(16:53):
care if you borrow it. I don't care if you
use it. Just know where it comes from, you know,
and honor that.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Well, Paris is Burning is you know, so important to
both of us.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
And I think.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
It's because for me, I realized that, like you know,
that they're not going to see their dreams that they're saying.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
Realized yes, it's haunting.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
It's haunting because they're there. I think about Octavia saying
Laura all the time who wants to be the supermodel
and deserves to be.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
It's like stunning, but.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
We know we want people to say, there goes Octavites
want to be a product.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Yes, and you know that that's not going to happen
for her, but yet it does.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Happen right before it's happened to you. For it to
happen to me.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
We are dream We are her dreams realize exactly, and
so that we get to like hold that that we
are even being here right now doing this pie con
our heart.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Like you know, growing up, I never saw anything like this.
We talk about like.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Literally holding your heart in your hands literally like that's
not a thing.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Ever, And so it's like this didn't just happen by us.
Now there's gratitude to be paid to the ones who
paid the way. Absolutely, and that to me is part
of religion. Yes, that is part of my religion.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
That is a part of worship.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Yeah, the uge like humanity and ancestors. I've now said,
because you know, growing up with God, I will say,
even in like my very black church, Caribbean based church,
the images of Jesus and God were always very white,
and so I grew up with this understanding. And so
there was some time, I would say, like in my
twenties where I really started to after the rupture with
(18:32):
my mom and like her becoming born again, where I
started to really interrogate, what is this thing? And I
was like, why am I? Why is my default? I
know it is it's our society, but why is my
default white? And why is my default of God? Just
like a man? And to me, what I've come to
over the years is if I can imagine what God is,
I'm probably not even close.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
That.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Like, if I can like picture what I think God
looks like, I'm probably not close to it. Because that
whatever built, whatever this is beyond humans. But also the bugs,
the flowers. I don't know if that is like a person.
I don't know if that is a it's not a
white man. And so for me, I've read defined. I
call it Augie Augi ancestors, Universe, God, intuition. I love that,
(19:19):
like that it's a culmination of things that I worship,
my ancestors, the universe, God, whatever that is, and intuition
because God is in you as.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
Well, Yes, absolutely right, like we are a reflection of that.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Yes, yes, I think it's first book First Book of John,
Chapter four, verse eight.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
God is love, this idea that like it's not about
hate and the bigotry.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
It's like it's you.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
And if God is love, then I've been saying in
the show then to love God in its purest form,
detached from colonized religions, religious fanatics and televangelists is to
love you. You get to be the love of your life.
And that, to me is always the missing piece in
some churches is that it becomes external and it's like no, no,
like this thing, say, God, isn't you? Where does God live?
(20:03):
Not up in the sky. It's like heaven is here, yes,
Hell is also career here.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
My mom would say that growing up that like heaven
is not above and below. She might believe that now
because she's gone on a different journeys growing up. When
she was like exploring other things, she was like, people
are in heaven right now, or they're in Hell right now,
or they're in you know, purgatory right now, Like this
is the moment. You're not you're not living for something
after like this is this is your life?
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Right? Like wake up to it?
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Right? And I think I think I always say who
you are with is a reflection of how you see.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Your say that again, please, who you are with is
a reflection of how you see yourself.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
Yes, yes, And that can be romantic, that can be platonic. Yeah,
Because if you look at your friends, you're saying a
reflection of yourself. If you look at your partner, you're
saying a reflection of yourself.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
And I think how you see God is a reflection
of yourself as well. And if you see God as
someone that separates, yes, that divides, angry, that that is
a judge, as a judgmental God, or is one that
approves or disapproves of certain behaviors or won't allow this
(21:13):
one or that one to get into heaven because what
they're doing here on the planet Earth. Yes, and that
is a reflection of you, not some spiritual existence that
is out in the world. God is what you make it.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
We get to define God for ourselves.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
And we get to define what church is like discovered
in terms ofs church.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
This is church to me absolutely right, like sitting across
from somebody you love, looking on lollipops having a conversation. Yes,
that is that's fellowship is gathered, a fellowship that like
like that we've sometimes created such a limited idea of
what church is and what worship looks like. And it's
like no, when you are with people that you love,
(21:55):
even if they're a stranger, like somebody you just met,
but you're connecting and you're talking and you're celebrating, or
maybe you're not even talking, maybe it's a silent just like.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Five or do you want to sound bad?
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Yeah, Like that is worship, That is church, that is God.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Yes. Or meditating together, yes, yes, it's the same. It
is not different from prayer, right, And I think oftentimes
people value two people praying together over two people meditating together, yes,
you know, or two people in a mosque. You know
what I'm saying. We are all the same, yes, And
I think society wants us to believe that we are
all very different and in ways we are unique for sure, absolutely,
(22:35):
but internally we all want the same things.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
That's rue, to love and to be loved, to be seen, yes,
to see and to be seen. There's that quote that
other from My Angela, that is by the rumin philosopher Terrence,
I am a human being that something human can be
alien to me, which is like, yeah, like whatever your
background or our differences are of how we look, our
size is are cultural, but we're both human.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Absolutely, blood is running through us.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
So I can understand even if I don't understand your
exact lived experience, I can understand your desire to be loved.
I can understand heartbreak. I can understand your loneliness, sadness
or your happiness or I can understand that, and I
can I hope in the best of us, like not
just hold space for that, like, but but honor that,
(23:25):
you know, and be softer with you because I know
that this thing is hard. Yeah, you know, I know
this life thing is hard, and I've I've this is
my last like two or three years of like the
word softness. How do I become softer because everything is
hard and so things, people are running behind on this
and the train is late for that and this is
like okay, but I'm not going to show up and
(23:45):
like beat you down because of it, because I know
you're trying to do your best right, So, like, how
can I be softer with you?
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Absolutely?
Speaker 1 (23:51):
How can I be softer with myself? How can I
give myself grace?
Speaker 3 (23:54):
Absolutely?
Speaker 1 (23:54):
It's not about you excusing poor behavior over and over,
but it's going we're all humans and trying the.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Best, dude, the best we can of what we have,
what we know and have. Yeah, And that's why artists
are so such a threat to people empower, because artists
are here to remind you of everyone's humanity and to
remind you, I say, we're dealers of empathy. We remind
you to be empathetic, you know, even if you look
(24:23):
at you know, Ryan Murphy's new series right where he's
examining the darkest places.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
The darkest corners of.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
Our society, of our humanity. And I think there's an
idea that maybe is he trying to make us feel
for people that have done something that we can't imagine
another person could possibly do to another human being. And
I don't know. I can't speak for him, but I
think one there is a fascination that clearly society has
(24:53):
with the corners of the world he likes to tap into.
And I think people are fascinated by it because they
are one wondering how someone who is also a part
of the same human sort of species, if you will, yes,
could do something that they can't even fathom. And I
don't know if there's a particular lesson in that. But
what we're saying is that we all need to look
(25:16):
at each other, even when it's difficult, yeah, to understand
someone else's behavior, and you don't have to necessarily agree
with it or even approve, but I think it is
our responsibility to at least look at every single person
and know that they are a person and that they
will once a child just like us.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
I think that that's a really hard thing for people.
Is that like we want to just like immediately not
you know, we want to immediately.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
Dismiss or look away.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
And it's like, yes, accountability all that stuff, but also
if we're not going to talk about it, things continue
to happen.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Just because you look away from someone doesn't mean they
don't exist.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Exactly, And if we don't understand why it exists, then
like that thing has a chance showing up in ourselves exactly.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
And the truth is is that if you don't face something, yeah,
then you can't change it. Not that everything is meant
to be changed by you, But I think turning away,
turning a blind eye is never the answer. Yeah, But
rather why not sit in things that make us feel
uncomfortable and and be okay with that uncomfortability.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
That's why I love doing this show is you know,
sex is uncomfortable, but it's like, no, no, let's just talk
about it and then you can do whatever. Everything we
say here you might not agree with, you might not
even want to try, but like the ability to talk
about it, I think creates space in you to say, well,
what do you.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Want to do?
Speaker 3 (26:39):
I think? But my question is always it goes back
to my other religion. Is the word why? You know, yes,
why does talking about sex make people uncomfortable? And for
everybody the answer is different. But I think a lot
of that is societal. Of course, it is suppressed and
(26:59):
so and the thing is is that if you think
about sex and the act of it, it is a
very that can also be a place of worship for someone.
That is also a search and spirituality.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
In your body. Yeahthing like that your body is a temple.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
Yes, it is a spiritual experience. And so for some people,
it's not. For some people it always is. For some
people's it's a way to make a living, and some
people are afraid of it so that they don't have it.
Some people are like, I'm celibate for this reason or
that reason, and I think when we don't have ownership
over our sexuality, it affects other areas of our lives.
(27:37):
And so if society doesn't want us to be free
in it and to talk about it openly and freely,
and to enjoy it in all the ways that it
can exist in a consensual manner, I think think about
how our society would look if we took the lid
off of sexual freedom and said we are all will
(28:00):
talk and will be open. Because often how are people
shamed in our society. It is often to do with
what they are turned on by, Yes, what they want
to do in the privacy of their own home. Yes,
Because who they want to love, how they choose to love,
how they want to be loved, especially in terms of
what whether they be a pastor a basketball player, a
(28:21):
person who plays football. You know, it's sort of a
pop star. People are so caught up and how a
person is turned on and who they're turned on by
and what brings them pleasure. It is something that for
some reason we have not been able to allow folks
to live and let live when it comes to sex
(28:42):
and sexuality. I think that's why what you're doing while
the whole church is so important because what you're saying
to people is sex too can be a religion. Yes,
do not be afraid to worship at the sight of
your own body.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
And because so many people are taught to be ashamed
of what they want wanted, yeah, of what turns them
on to do it in a secret like to clear
the porn hub history. You know what I'm saying. And
to me, I think that that is what is holding
us back in so many ways. And I think until
(29:16):
we can walk through that uncomfortability and do away with
shame and embarrassment, I think we're gonna behind n eight
ball for a whole lot longer.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
Yeah, And sometimes society has to reckon with because sexuality
is your choice, is your right. You are free. You
do not have to have boring sex or no sex
at all because you feel ashamed of the kind of
sex that you want to have. We have to get
free in the bedroom before we can get free in
the other areas about life.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
I always say like, if you can be vulnerable and
ask for what you want and know what you want
in the bedroom, you could take over the world.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
And also people should prioritize their pleasure yes, well that
what we're sa. I think there are people that sometimes
prioritize their partner's pleasure so that way they can keep them,
and I think that's a misconception.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
We prioritize our partner's pleasure, We prioritize penetration, and it's
like sex and penetration.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
We do prioritize penetration.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
It's like if you don't put it in then like it's.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
If it's yes, or that it has to only be
between two people? Right?
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Absolutely, sex with yourself?
Speaker 3 (30:18):
Hello?
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Hello?
Speaker 3 (30:19):
Right, three people? Give me one person? Absolutely, because it's
really sex is not binary.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
It's not binary.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
It's actually far more expansive than we allow ourselves to
talk about. I actually had somebody come to one of
the previews for Home Church and they came up to
me after and they were like, I'm a forty year
old virgin. She's not by choice, but I'm a church girl.
And she's like, I wondered, what if this shame isn't mine?
Like what if I have been told to have this shame?
Speaker 3 (30:47):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (30:47):
And she's like the show made me go, what if
what if I've been holding out like this? Because I
thought like there's something wrong or or I would be
bad if I had sex or whatever. And then it
turns out like that wasn't even telling you, No, that
was some and h and focus on you instead of
(31:08):
focus on themselves. Right, It's like that's something the power
of sex is like it requires you to not be
the sheep, but to be the shepherd. Yes, right to
like to go. I have control over this. I can
get information from you, I can get influence from you.
I can get ideas from you. But at the end
of the day, even if I go to church every Sunday,
at the end of the day, I gotta come home
and be with myself. I can't just do what you
(31:30):
said because you said it, because you're the pastor. I
have to be like, oh, what works for me. I
have a mentor, Ellen Barbera who says, take what you need,
take what's useful, leave the rest. And that to me
is like how you should engage with anything anything we
say here church. You go like, take what you need to,
(31:51):
take what's useful, and then leave the rest.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
Yeah, nothing is gospel. And and the thing is is
that I don't understand and a lot of people do this,
particularly women sort of I think are told how to
live and how to behold because in our society we
technically our second class citizens because we do live in
a patriarchal society. That's not an opinion, that's a fact
that literally. And the thing is, it's like so many
(32:15):
women because I don't show up as a feminine presenting person,
I don't live underneath the male gaze, and I'm not ladylike.
And because of that, because I have quote unquote masculine attributes,
it can be you know, seen as a certain way
or described a certain way because I'm a woman, and
I'm supposed to behave a certain way because I'm a woman.
(32:37):
And so what I refused was to live by society's
rules for me, and therefore I live a very free life.
And when people look at me they see freedom. They don't,
you know, they kind.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
Of look what's happening, you know what it is, but
it's like it's freedom.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
When people look at queer people and looking for the
trans people, they see freedom.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
That's why there's so much attack on it.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
Correct because you're like, oh, they're free, and if they
can be free, they're why.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
It's like, no, you can't be doing that. So it's
just easy to be like cut.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
Them, yeah, say like no, yeah, you know what I'm saying.
And so I think the idea of living under someone
else's rule, yes, it's foreign, yes to me. And if
someone wants to live under someone else's rule, that is
their rights, absolutely, And if you are not happy about that,
that is also your right to not be happy, to
(33:26):
not be pleased with your life. But I think all
a lot of people are asking is but for those
that choose not to live under the rules of society,
allow us to be happy as well.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
Please.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
And the question is like I always ask this question,
you know, which is who would I be of society
never got its hands on me? And it's a scary question.
And now it's easy for me to ask, but it
is scary when people are like, I'm looking at all
this freedom and I want my own freedom, but I
don't know where to begin. And then if you go, well,
who would I be of society never got its hands
on me?
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Suddenly all the.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Social scripts go away because I'm going just because you
don't have to do that, because you're a woman, because
you're man, because you're like, it's what what do you
want to do?
Speaker 2 (34:03):
You know? It's like it's kind of scary to go.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Let me shake off the societal pressures and figure out
what works for me and how do I want to be?
And I think that you don't have to do it
all at once, right, Like it's it's maybe bit by bit.
It might start with like for me is like I
might be like, you know what, I want to wear heels,
so put a heel on, or you might go fuck
as a woman, I hate heels and I'm never gonna
(34:28):
put a heel Like you want to get start small things,
but it's just like, can you start to just gently
interrogate what are the things that you're doing because your
mom told you to do what, your dad told you
to do it, your teachers told you to do it,
your pastor told you to do it, And asked like,
do I actually want to do that?
Speaker 3 (34:42):
Yeah? Like do you want to be wearing makeup?
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Period?
Speaker 3 (34:45):
Do you want to like wear your hair? Do you
want to straighten your hair?
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (34:49):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Is that why question? It's like, well, why am I
doing that? Why am I do Is that my desire?
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Or is that because somebody told me that is what
I should do?
Speaker 3 (34:55):
You want to be with the person you're with. Do
you like the job that you have doing it because
it makes your family proud? Yes?
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Do you want to have kids?
Speaker 3 (35:05):
Do you really want to have kids?
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Have kids?
Speaker 3 (35:08):
And if so, why why? And not in like a
you should like to bring.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
A light like let's have this conversation which I know
we've had, which is that to me, children and twelve
children are so precious. And then also as adults, a
lot of us are in therapy because of our parents.
And I don't think that you know, and I don't
think there's any way like for a parent to not
in some way their kid up. It's impossible.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
You can't not fuck your kid up.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
You're gonna do it.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
It's gonna happen.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
But I do think that there's an intentionality and like
I I why am I having a kid? If I
can know what that answer is, then there's an intentionality
that can show up with them and I can see
them as a person as opposed to sometimes kids are
seen as props, or they are seen as an extension
of their parents, extension of your parent, or they are
(35:54):
a bandaged to fix something, or they weren't even thought
about right.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
I was like, I was just like oh, and then like.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
What does that do to that kid who comes into
the world and doesn't know anything? And they are here
to fix the relationship where they are an afterthought or
or they.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Are extend or an extension, they're here.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
To fulfill your drinks correct, somebody else is probably. So
It's like if you ask the question why don't why
do I want kids? You might discover I discovered this.
I wanted kids my whole life. I thought I wanted kids,
Like my whole plan was, won't get marriage, won't have kids.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
And then I d a kid. And then like three
or four.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Years ago, I went to after the Writer's Strike, I
went to Amsterdam like for like one of those like solo,
What's my life about?
Speaker 2 (36:38):
And I was like, oh, I don't want kids?
Speaker 3 (36:40):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (36:41):
And I started weeping.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
I was like, I was like, oh, oh, I thought
I was gonna have kids. And I thought if I
had kids, then maybe it would repair my relationship with
my mother because I could go, yes, I'm gay, but
look I have kids and so I'm normal.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
And so I.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Realized having kids was away from me to feel normal,
and like I was just like everybody.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Yeah I'm gay, but like you know I have kids,
and so like, I'm like you.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
How And when I didn't need to feel normal anymore,
and when I did, when I could give up like,
oh who would I be? A society never got its
hands on me. I don't need anyone's approval. Then it
was like, well, do you want kids? I was like, oh,
no that I don't know. I don't need I think
I can be a parent in other ways. I think
i'd be a great god parent.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
I'm like, you know, like a great but I don't
actually need to be a parent. And that was.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
I mean, that's let that piece literally just everything then
just not fell apart, but opened up.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
Yeah. Yeah, No, I think I think I was a
little bit like you as well. I think I thought
I was supposed to have kids, yeah, And I thought
it was a natural progression that I was meet someone,
we would start a life, and that would.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Just be a part of it, the social script. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:57):
And then I think as my career started to take
off and I started to get you know, really wrapped
up in what I was doing, and not in a
way that I think is bad, in a way that
was actually inspiring and exciting and invigorating. And then I
just kind of thought to myself, I don't have the
capacity right now to take on the pressures of what
(38:17):
it is to be a parent. And then as I
continued in my life, there was never a window or
a moment wherever it felt like, oh, now I have
the capacity or now I really want to do it. Yeah,
And so because that wasn't coming, and then you know,
I'm forty one, now, I really started to ask myself
really like just I mean really, is only a few
short years ago where it got really clear where I
(38:39):
thought to myself, you know what, I will never have
the capacity to be a parenteah. And then I also
realized I didn't have a desire to be a parent.
And I even think the language that we're using is
very different from I think there's a difference between wanting
to have a child and wanting to be a parent. M.
(39:05):
I can have a child, Yeah, I can do that. Yes,
I do not desire to be Yeah, yeah, have a child,
but also don't desire to be a child's parent. Yes, Yes,
I don't want to be a parent, yes, And I
have to understand that distinction.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
That is masterful. I never that's masterful. Yeah, And wanting
a child and wanting to be a parent.
Speaker 3 (39:29):
Correct. I don't want my life to change in the
way that your life has to change when you when
you're a parent.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Absolutely, absolutely, Because I.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
Can pass that child off to someone else, I can
hire a living nanny, I can have a child. Yes,
I could have a child, but I would not be
raising it. Yes, Yes, because I don't have the capacity
to do so.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (39:50):
What I do have capacity for is to pour into
myself and my community and all the partnerships that surround me,
because I don't believe partnership has to be romantic. And
when I get home at the end of a long day,
all I want to do is to be quiet, yes,
and to pour into myself. Yes, to watch something. I
(40:13):
have to read something before I go to bed, and
then I have to make sure I get to sleep.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
Yes, and that you get yes.
Speaker 3 (40:21):
Attracting it with my or Okay, I'm tracking my level
of readiness and energy. And I witness a lot of
parents around me. Also witness people that have children. There
are people that have children, There are people that are parenting. Yeah,
we witness.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
All the time, and some people really do want to
be parents. I think that's such a beautiful distinction.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
Some people really do do you want to have a
child or do you want to be a parent.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
And some people really do want to be parents, and
they're fabulous at it. I've seen those parents, like they're
incredible at it. But we also see people that have
children children. Yeah, yeah, And I think I realized, oh,
I don't want to be I think so, I think, yeah,
I don't want to be a parent, like a child
will be fun up, you know, like to be a
parent and the parent that I know i'd want to be.
(41:10):
I know that I the parent, especially with my history
of you know, being a strange to my mom for
fifteen years.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
Right, I'm not in community, you know.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
Yeah, So like so knowing that I know that if
I were to have a child, I'd want to be
a different kind of parent.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
And the type of parent that I would.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Want to be would require a lot more than I
have the capacity for, or that I.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
Want capacity for.
Speaker 3 (41:31):
Right. And I think some of the best parents I witness, uh,
they are just making space for their child to be
whoever it is they're going to be.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
Yes, yes, And I because we also.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
See those parents that need their child to be something
for them put.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Them in the box.
Speaker 3 (41:51):
Yes, like I need you to do this. I need
you to be successful with that. I need you to
be married with kids at this age. I need you
to graduate so I can talk about yourself. I need
to move for a certain age. I need you to
dress a certain way. I need you to be straight.
I need you to straighten your hair. I need you
to to do these things.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
I also need you to remain my child. How old
you are, you're still my child.
Speaker 3 (42:10):
I also need you to take care of me when
i'm older.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, I need.
Speaker 3 (42:14):
You to make me feel like you were worth the sacrifice.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
Yes, that's a very different There's.
Speaker 3 (42:19):
A lot of children out here with burdens on their
backs before they can even walk. A lot of children
walking around with burdens that their parents are giving them
and their parents don't even know where they're doing it.
And a lot of children feel like a burden. Yeah,
I know. I felt like.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
Because the parents haven't interrogated their own who they are,
what they want.
Speaker 3 (42:37):
And we can have empathy for those parents because you
can't give what you didn't get. And if you were
raised as a burden, then your child might face the same.
Uh you know, fate?
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Yes, I've sland.
Speaker 3 (42:49):
But there are some people who realize, hey, I felt
like I had to be something from my mother, So
therefore I won't make my child feel that way that
they have to be something from me. Some people break
the cycle. Some people don't know how to.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
Some people cycle one thousand percent.
Speaker 3 (43:04):
They like, this is just how you do.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
This is how you do it.
Speaker 3 (43:06):
You raise your kid to be a carbon copy of you,
which is why.
Speaker 1 (43:10):
On this show, I say, you know, being a hoe
is someone who commits the celebration of themselves and others
by thoughtfully interrogating their relationship to sex using curiosity, communication, communication,
and compassion. It's just like, oh, I'm going to interrogate
who am I? Because if you start to like ask
those questions of yourselves, then I think you can see
if you're in a cycle. Right. But if you're not
asking questions, you're not asking why, if you're not asking questions,
(43:32):
if you're not being curious about who you are, and
you're just kind of going through the motions. So I
do this at this age, or do this by this age,
then you pass it on.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
Everybody should ask themselves before they have a kid, why
do I want to have children? Why do I want
to have Why do I want to be a parent?
Speaker 2 (43:45):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (43:46):
And I think whatever that answer is is valid absolutely.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
And again there are people who want to be parents
and should be.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
Parents, right, And like I was, ask themselves, why don't
we want to be parents? And the answers are different
and they're all valid. Absolutely, everybody's right. Everybody is right.
If you want to have kids because you want to
have kids, you're right, great, do it. If you want
to have kids because you want to be a parent,
you're right absolutely.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
But whatever it is, I think it's just like, do
it intentionally.
Speaker 3 (44:10):
If you want to have kids to fix your marriage,
then say that you know why you're doing it. If
you want to have kids because you want to have
a little version of yourself, then just say that know.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
Why you're doing it, so that like you can actually
live in the truth of what's happening exactly as opposed
to being confused.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
Yeah, don't try to convince us to something that's not.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Say what it is, what it is, and it's beautiful.
Speaker 3 (44:28):
And we'll say fine. Yes, if it makes you feel
uncomfortable with the truth, then that's a whole other thing
for you. But let the truth be what it is
unless be sitting that and own that. Let's call it
a thing.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
Do just have church?
Speaker 3 (44:45):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (44:46):
We did?
Speaker 3 (44:47):
Okay, Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
Okay, Alda, let us uh, let's wrap this up.
Speaker 3 (44:55):
I know another classic episode when I come, we're gonna
talk about being a strange for our parents while we
don't want to be parents, and how we define religion
for ourselves, and why sex is our own, our own,
our own playground. Yeah, okay, yeah, we can do it
with ourselves with two people up more. Absolutely, we have
a right to do that because we're consenting and we grown. Okay,
(45:18):
this episode is called and okay, I'm gonna live my
life the way I see fit. You have a problem
with it, that's fine, that's fine.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
You're right, you're right, You're right right about it in
your journal. I don't need to know about it. I
don't care.
Speaker 3 (45:30):
You could tell me. You could tell and I listen
intently and say, that's fair.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
That's fair, And then I'm gonna keep living my.
Speaker 3 (45:38):
Life that's true, because that's also fair.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
I think.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
I mean for me, I think that I'm gonna ask
you this question. I would define church. I would define
church for myself as anything that allows me to live freely.
That like, for me, churches because it's not just about
(46:05):
like all the joy, because there are I think there
are like church holds you in those sad moments too.
And so how would I define church for myself?
Speaker 3 (46:14):
Good question? I think for me, church is a place
of solitude. Some think when I'm alone at the crib,
where i'd be quiet, listening to records, watching a documentary
that is moving me or giving me knowledge I didn't
(46:34):
have before. Yeah, sitting with my dogs.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Ye, cuddling of the dogs, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (46:42):
Cuddling of any kind and listen to a voice. No,
you know, sometimes a joint is involved, not always, but yeah,
church is peace, it is, but also it can be
you know a place of turbulence as well. And you know,
being aymous, you know, having.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
A bonomous period.
Speaker 3 (47:04):
You know, these and turbulence are both needed. Yeah, in
order for me to exist. So that's that's that's always
charge to me.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
I think I second all of that, and I think
for me, I'm going to define it as it's like
taking care of myself. I started looking in the mirror
and like, you know, it's it's interesting to like I'm
thirty eight, but like I'm sure, like I feel, I
still feel like it.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
Could be twenty. I don't know what that is.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
Like you're like, I don't know, ages, but I'm looking
at myself in the mirror and I'm seeing my face
and my body change anything.
Speaker 3 (47:34):
I looked at me her and I said, I love.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
You, and like I literally said, no matter what happens,
like I will be here for you, because you know,
things happen and life happens, and people come and go
and change. I looked at myself in the mirror and
I said, you will never be alone, like I got you.
And so that to me is church, like churches is
(48:00):
taking care of yourself and loving yourself no matter what.
That you know that no matter what the world does,
no matter what your family does, your blood does, your
boss does, like you have you and that you.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
Will, you will you, that you will be, that you
will be your own parent.
Speaker 3 (48:17):
That's right, that's right, that's beautiful. Yeah, that's gorgeous. I
second that.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
Okay, Well I guess.
Speaker 3 (48:28):
Yes, that's how I have a lot of people. Yeah yeah, yeah,
while I'm waiting for other folks to love them so
they can love them. Yeah, no, no, you gotta with
you starts with you. You got to love yourself, Yes
you must.
Speaker 2 (48:38):
Yeah, I love you.
Speaker 3 (48:40):
I love you, Brandon. Thank you for being here, thank
you for having me.
Speaker 2 (48:43):
Let's see you soon.
Speaker 3 (48:43):
Yeah you will.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
Well you know we are hoes here, but ho with heart.
So before we part ways, let me speak to yours.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
And I got my heart with me. I feel what
we named him, Herman, Herman the heart period. Okay.
Speaker 1 (49:09):
In thinking about how we interrogate who we are, you know,
the question that I ask is who would I be
if society never got its hands on me. That was
a really groundbreaking question for me because it started to
allow me to get curious about what am I doing
that I want to do and what am I doing
because I'm supposed to do it or I think I'm
(49:30):
supposed to do it. So a big part of this
is for me, and again you're going to figure out
what your own way of doing this is. But it
was meditation and journaling.
Speaker 2 (49:38):
It was.
Speaker 1 (49:39):
And by the way, when I say meditation, you know,
if you want to do that, you know that's beautiful.
But I also say, you know, listening to Whitney Houston
sing I Have Nothing is a meditation. So like whatever
it is for you that brings you peace. It could
be a walk, It could it could be painting. Whatever
your meditation is fine, but finding a meditation and then journaling,
(50:00):
whether that's in a physical book or in your notes app,
but asking yourself questions about what do you like, what
do you want, what do you desire? What do you
think you're supposed to do? And then, as Lena said,
asking why it's a gentle interrogation. I want to remind
you that no answer is wrong. This isn't school. You're
(50:21):
not going to ace the test, blunk the test. So
it really is about creating a gentle interrogation, a gentle
pathway to unpacking our boxes. So many of us are
just following the regular social scripts. You think, because you're
a man, you're supposed to do X, Y and Z.
You're a woman, so you do X, Y and Z.
(50:41):
You're gay, so you do ABC.
Speaker 2 (50:44):
Fuck it? Who are you?
Speaker 3 (50:47):
Who are you?
Speaker 1 (50:49):
What do you want to do? How do you want
to live? Who do you want to become? Don't let
other people dictate your life. They've lived their lives. And
respect to parents. I know that we put parents and
families on pedestals, and sometimes we even subject ourselves to
reckless behavior because they are our blood.
Speaker 2 (51:12):
But at a.
Speaker 1 (51:12):
Certain point, you get to protect you. My mentor, Ellen
Barber said once to me, if you were your own parent,
what advice would you give yourself? At some point in
your life, you have to become your own guardian. Now,
if you have a great relationship with your parent, your parent,
that's wonderful, and that still gets to be but you
still have to become your guardian at some point.
Speaker 2 (51:36):
Nobody knows you like you do.
Speaker 1 (51:39):
The trap is some of us don't even know who
we are, and that's why these questions of like why
is important. So ask yourself why about everything? Make it
a game, no stakes, no pressure. You're not going to
figure this all out tomorrow. This journey for me has
been fifteen years long. My mom and I stopped talking
(52:00):
ten years ago, which many of you already know. She
became borning and Christian and I'm a flaming homosexual, honey, okay,
And so those two things were not jiving or aligning,
and so I had to make a really hard decision.
It is the hardest decision I've ever made, but it
was also an important one. Your story doesn't have to
mirror mine, and I really hope it doesn't, and if
(52:20):
it does, I'm so sorry and I love you.
Speaker 2 (52:24):
But the point of it.
Speaker 1 (52:25):
Is to gently interrogate yourself and to remove anything that
stands in the way of you being yourself.
Speaker 2 (52:35):
You got one fucking life, live it. I love you.
Speaker 1 (52:43):
Thank you so much for listening to tell Me Something Messy.
If you all enjoyed the show, send me episode to
someone else.
Speaker 2 (52:49):
You might like it.
Speaker 1 (52:50):
Tell Me Something Messy was executive produced by Ali Perry,
Gabrielle Collins, and Yours Truly. Our producer and editor is
Vince de Johnny. The video of tell Me Something Messy
is produced by Des Lombardo and a special thank you
to Natalie Brandam, who helps you organize and come up
with some of this mess tell Me Something Messy is
a production of iHeart Podcasts on the Outspoken Network. For
(53:11):
more podcasts, listen on the free iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
You're listening to tell me something Messy with Brandon, Kyle
Goodman and iHeart podcasts on the Outspoken Network. Talking about relationships,
sex and identity always reminds me that being a human
is messy.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
So I wanted to create a compassionate.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Space where we feel less alone and embrace our mess together,
the funny, the vulnerable, the cringe, and even the kinky,
because every part of who we are matters. So don't
be shy, baby, tell me something messy. Messy patrons, come on, baby,
welcome to the show. I am your messy mom, Brandon
Kyle Goodman, and you know what that means. It is
(00:34):
time for a guest. Now, while they get situated, we
will get our messy.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Key.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Key started with a whole manifesto, so repeat after me
aloud or in your head. Grant me the serenity to
unpack my shame, the courage to heal, the wisdom to
know that sex is not about penetration, the audacity to
advocate for my pleasure and boundaries, the strength to not
call my ex that fuck boy, fuck girl, or fuck bay,
(00:58):
for it is better to masturbabe by myself in peace
then to let someone play in my motherfucking face. Let
the hommunity say Holujah. Today's guest needs no introduction, but
I'm gonna give it to her anyway. I'm so happy
to have Lena Waite, the Emmy Award winning writer, actor,
and producer who reshaped TV with her powerful Thanksgiving episode
(01:21):
on Master of None. She went on to create The
Shy Twenties and a groundbreaking film, Queen and Slim. The
thing I love most about Lena is that she uses
every space she touches to amplify a black, queer and
underrepresented voices. She is my friend, my mentor, and one
of the producers on my stage show ho Church, which
is playing until November eighth. Y'all please help me. Welcome
(01:44):
into our messy well, I guess it's our messy studio, Lena. Wait, hey, Lena,
I'm good, Welcome back to the show.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Happy to be back city.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
I know we're in New York now in the red room.
Come on, okay, matches the branding you see?
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Hello?
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Okay, something messy period. Okay, before we get started, you know,
we have to do our messy mandates. Okay, so as
you remember, things get to be in processed. Any opinions,
your thoughts shared get the right to shift or change
or involve today, tomorrow, ten years from now. And if
during the kiki something feels too personal or unintentionally offense,
we use the same word. Football gives us a second
(02:20):
to pause and address accordingly.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Sound good, sounds amazing, beautiful.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Let's start a game. Okay, okay, this game is called
what's that movie?
Speaker 1 (02:27):
What movie is that from? Okay, so I'm gonna give
you a dramatic reading, and you're gonna tell.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Me what movie you think it's very dramatic. Ye, it's
gonna be right. This one is the family fucked my husband,
that soulful.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Hey, y uh, this one is only give me once.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
I know maybe he only things.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
I give you eleven fucking years of my life and
you tell me you're leaving me for a white one.
Wait to excel.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Come on, there you go this one.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
I know you'll know I'm pricking up for you, specially okay, Uh,
stony back then acting all stank of thank off.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
There we go. This is what This might be tricky,
but I cursed the day you were born.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Say it again, I cursed the day you were blessed, Charlotte.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
That was my Charlotte Wace and this is one is uh,
just because you can't see the air doesn't keep you
from breathing, and just because you can't see God doesn't
keep you from belief appreciers.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
What damn? Okay?
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Jeremiah, Yeah, Jeremiah.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Yeah, you want to hear you? You win my unconditional love,
and you can get a lollipop.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Come on, I feel like I already had your conditional
you did.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Of course, always lollipops.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Okay, I want this one beautiful Okay, And if y'all
have prompts or messy games, you can email tell me
something messy at gmail dot com. Which let's get into
this like messy combo, which is you know, you're producing
my show.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Ho Church, which one of the producers.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
One of the producers on it honored to be thank you,
which is so exciting, and it's all about kind of
reclaiming or rebuilding church inside of ourselves. And so let
me start with a really simple question.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
What is a gospel song you want to hear in
the club?
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Gospel song? I like a mix of it's like like
never would have made it, and it's like but it's
put to Obviously that's a slow song. Yeah, but and
I'm sorry if I please let me know who the
DJ was or who the person did this like mix
(04:34):
or they put it to like sort of this sort
of house and and that kind of became very popular
with people. Yeah, and I really love that, you know, Yeah,
I love that. I love like gospel music put to
gay house music.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Yes, this is the best. Mine is the Clark Sisters.
You brought the sunshine whenever that were Like, I've been
just so many clubs and it starts.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Playing and of course like Jesus and everyone is lit.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
And also what's the Kirk Franklin joint that people always
do at the end of the club too.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
I mean, there's so many good ones to do.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
I know, but damn it's it's one of his. Is
a lot of people kind of get into it too.
And it's not even stomp.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
I was gonna say, it's because I feel.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
That something else. It's something else, is it? Like, I
don't know, it's not. I don't know. But there's some
Kirk Franklin stuff in the library where. That's why people
got mad at him, because they felt like his church
music was too secular.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
That's what I kind of I mean So in the
show we actually talk about Kirk Franklin and basically tell
the story about repenting for masturbating to gay porn. And
I would turn on Kirk Franklin's track nine on the
New Nation Project now, which is.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
Very slow masturbating to gospel music. Well, no, it was
after I masturbated. What's happening.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
I'm pretty evolved, you know.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
No, it was after that I would put on Kirk
but that whole album. I remember my grandmother not loving
Kirk Franklin because my grandmother was more traditional old school,
old school, old school like family Radio. I don't know
if you know what that is. It was like, ah,
I forget who ran it. Actually the person who ran
it Fred or something like that, I look it up.
But he was one of those people that was like
(06:18):
the rapture is coming, like even though my mother didn't
talk about rapture stuff like this particular Christian radio station,
the head of it was very much in that like
the world, Yeah, the world's coming to it a kind
of stuff. So Kirk Franklin was like my way into
gospel music. But like obviously my grandmother wasn't in to it.
But it was because it brought in you know, hip
(06:39):
hop pop house under these you know, beautiful, beautifully written
gospel songs.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Yeah, I mean so interesting. A lot of traditionalists sort
of didn't love Kirk Franklin and I think but for
a lot of young people, he made it okay to
bump gospel into it or sort of the sort of
the gate into it. And I just sort of feel like,
how could one be mad at that?
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Very yeah, do you remember what was what's been your
spiritual journey? Because I think they were both turk me
from wrong. But I don't really consider myself religious or
so spiritual.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
But were you raised in the church?
Speaker 3 (07:17):
You know, always say I come from a family of
lazy Christians that they would go to church, you know,
as often as they could, And we went to Christ
Universal Temple in Chicago, and very it was also a
mega church by the time I got older, when they
were when my grandmother first starting to go started to
follow Johnny Coleman, who was a black woman minister. It
(07:37):
was a very rare thing at that time. She was
in a smaller church in Chicago, and then over time
because she also preached prosperity and us having the keys
of the kingdom and not and also she preached abundance,
not scarcity, and so therefore that was really important. You know,
you would go and you would say, like, we deserve
all the nice things and wonderful things it has to offer.
(08:01):
And my grandmother really took to that. My mom then
obviously took to that, and my mother brought my sister
and I to go to church as often as she could,
but you know, we would go to, like, you know,
the children's section of the church, and sometimes we go
sit in the adult church. But I think what was
very impactful about that was to see a black woman
be the founder and leader and minister of a black church.
(08:22):
I mean literally. Henry Lewis Gaye did a whole book
about the history of the Black Church, and my minister
was mentioned in the book. Wow. So when I read
it and obviously emailed him back and I said, love
the book. Thought it was amazing, I said, but also
it was very blown away that the minister I came
up under was mentioned. And obviously she should have been
one of the very few black women to be ahead
of her own ministry. And so for me, I was
(08:44):
more so empowered by that idea. But also she was
preaching prosperity, which was very interesting and very unique. Even
like Reverend Ike also came by, and like like Ben
Verreen would come to the church and Dela Reze would
come to the church. Wow, come on, It was just
sort of like it was very there was there was
a lot of like influencers, you know, coming into the church. Yeah,
(09:04):
so I was raised to understand the significance of the
pulpit and the power of it and also sort of
the spoken word more so than it being like fire
and damnation. And also I wasn't in the church where
they were acting like they never even mentioned the word
homosexuality to say, so it wasn't bad or yeah, it
just wasn't even talking to talked about my church either.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
So my grandmother, my grandmother was like the first woman
of African descent to be ordained into our church's denomination
or wide. And so I grew up only kind of
understanding women at the head of the church. And it
was kind of strange when I saw, oh, mostly it's men,
I just assumed that it was always else there was women.
But I think what she also never preached about homosexuality.
(09:48):
In fact, it was really weird when that finally that
rupture happened with my mom, which happened much later.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
It was strange because I never grew.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Up hearing anyone in the house talk about homosexuality, like,
no kind of position. It was always about like love, grace, abundance, prosperity.
But I think also what was interesting as to writers
is the church is kind of I realized where I
learned to write. Especially there's a point where when we
got a computer, I started typing my grandmother's sermons for her,
(10:17):
and I typed a bunch of her old sermons, and
as a kid, I was like, ah, but I realized
I was learning how to speak and how to write,
because that's literally I think what church is. Churches is,
and I mean it's like, respectfully, it's another theater. Yeah,
it's like it's storytelling.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
It is absolutely theater because also you have to keep
the people entertained, yes, know, for them to keep coming back.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
And pastors are you know they are they have to
be the great orators.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
You know.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
There's like to me, I think comedians and pastors are
also sort of in a similar box, yes, and that
they sort of have to be society's third eye, you know.
And and you know, preachers have a lot of power
and so much influence, and they also but they are
still people.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
And that's what I think we always forget is that.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Well, one I want to say, I remember this article
I think it was like the New Yorker years ago
that said comedy comedians are profits as well, and I
think there is something beautiful about that, where like as
these storytellers, you are also again the third eye showing
the world what they're not able to see, which is
very much what a pastor does, translating what's happening. But
then I think, and maybe this also relates to kind
of celebrity culture, like for me growing up a pKa,
(11:25):
pastors kind of being my first understanding of celebrity because
inside of the church, like you're the pastor's kid, like
there's a certain level of.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Eyes on you, with energy, certain lineage.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yeah, but then there's a perfectionism, right, we see pastors
and their families is infallible, right, and we and then
we take everything they say as a law as opposed
to tell me this thing, pastor, and then how do
I critically think about it and how do I apply
it to myself?
Speaker 2 (11:52):
But there's a lot.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Of taking it as it is and not necessarily interrogating it.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
Yeah, you and I know from being in therapy and
all that kind of stuff, is that one sort of
way of being or existing does not work for all. Right,
And oftentimes I think, particularly when people are helping to
helping you to understand the Bible translated however you want
(12:20):
to say it, is that everybody's in a different journey.
And oftentimes when you're in a congregation, you're part of
a herd. The idea is that what works for my
neighbor should work for me as well, right, and we
all know that that's true, not how life was and
so and also you talk about my journey in terms
of religion and spirituality. Yes, I don't consider myself to
(12:40):
be uber religious. No, I don't. I don't go to
church anywhere I used to. I found it funny because
when I came to LA I was looking for a
home church, if you will, because I was so used
to going to church when I was in Chicago, Like
that's what I did. But and then it was kind
of odd for a Sunday to come. I'm like, I'm
just chilling up the ship. I'm not, I'm doing it.
I'm just rest.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Cool.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
So I did find a church, you know, that I enjoy,
and then sort of the pastor kind of left and
so then I think I realized, oh, okay, I don't
know if I need that anymore. Yeah, And I think
I still want to know that there is something bigger
at work. You want to be in touch with my humility.
(13:18):
And I really just recently am reading this beautiful book
called Baldwin The Love Story written by Nicholas Boggs, a
wonderful biography about James Baldwin. I encourage everybody to read it.
There was a moment where he was meeting with the
members of the Nation of Islam. They were almost sort
of almost wonder like if they could convert him in
a way, like say, could you be one of ours?
And they sort of asked him, the Honorable Elijah Muhammad
(13:39):
asked him what religion do you belong to? Like, who
do you belong to? And Baldwin said, I'm a writer
and that reading that, I did exactly that with the
book in my hands and said, there it is. That
is my religion. If I worship anywhere, it's really at
the seat of my laptop, trying to be a vessel
(14:01):
for whatever messages I'm supposed to convey. Yes, and that
to me is the most spiritual place I can be
when I'm trying to open up myself to the universe,
to the higher power. So that way I can put
something on the page that is not for me to
be liked. It is not for me to get glory,
but for me to get free.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Wait, I want to send them for a second, because
I think you know, like for us it might be writing,
but like for everybody, they have their thing that is
their religion. Correct, whether it's you know, your you are
make bulls pottery or your painter or your dancer or
just like we all have these things.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
That are or you're a janitor or your janitor yeah whatever.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
It is like the thing that wherever you find your center,
whatever you wherever you find space to breathe correct, and
where you can hear not just yourself, but your lineage
and the people around you, like anything that kind of
makes you exhale a little bit.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
And your lineage isn't always blood.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
One thousand percent. M I was saying this to some
friends we were we were at like a warehouse party. Uh,
and then Donna Summer came on and we both looked
at each other and we were like, Donna Summer is
(15:24):
here right now.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Now listen.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
That might be a little bit of drugs, but it
was also the energy of like, oh, right, like I
don't have to know this person for them to be
my ancestor correct, no, right, Like I would hope that
when I passed, if somebody was like, oh Brandon co
gum and like I feel connected to them, They're like, yeah,
I'll show up for you know, I don't have to
know you, Like James Ball, when you call on James,
you call on Tony Morrison, you call on whoever these
(15:47):
people are, whether you know them personally, whether you knew
them or not, it's kind of irrelevant.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Yeah, yeah, I always love the way ball and talks
about the people that produced me, and he would say
Harlem produced me, yeah, and so me And then he
doesn't know every single person in Harlem, but he said
every single person in Harlem helped to shape the person
he became. And so I think that's why I love
doing legacy talk or talking to because I can sit
(16:11):
across from we Lever Shan and say you were my generations.
Dorothy Dandridge Leniel Horn. Yes, and you you were the
epeneme of beauty and that helped to shape my idea
of it. Yes, And so I think it's just important
that we understand the lineage from once we came you know,
Paris is Burning.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
We watched that documentary like.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
Multiple times a year to where we belind ourselves who
we come from. Yes, because when you hear the words
that they were saying then in the mouths of people
that necessarily I don't know if they were thought of
in terms of the inheritance. You know, those words and
those behaviors are passed down, but people are just sort
of taking pieces of our inheritance and don't even know
where it's coming from. And so for me, I don't
(16:53):
care if you borrow it. I don't care if you
use it. Just know where it comes from, you know,
and honor that.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Well, Paris is Burning is you know, so important to
both of us.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
And I think.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
It's because for me, I realized that, like you know,
that they're not going to see their dreams that they're saying.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
Realized yes, it's haunting.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
It's haunting because they're there. I think about Octavia saying
Laura all the time who wants to be the supermodel
and deserves to be.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
It's like stunning, but.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
We know we want people to say, there goes Octavites
want to be a product.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Yes, and you know that that's not going to happen
for her, but yet it does.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Happen right before it's happened to you. For it to
happen to me.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
We are dream We are her dreams realize exactly, and
so that we get to like hold that that we
are even being here right now doing this pie con
our heart.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Like you know, growing up, I never saw anything like this.
We talk about like.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Literally holding your heart in your hands literally like that's
not a thing.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Ever, And so it's like this didn't just happen by us.
Now there's gratitude to be paid to the ones who
paid the way. Absolutely, and that to me is part
of religion. Yes, that is part of my religion.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
That is a part of worship.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Yeah, the uge like humanity and ancestors. I've now said,
because you know, growing up with God, I will say,
even in like my very black church, Caribbean based church,
the images of Jesus and God were always very white,
and so I grew up with this understanding. And so
there was some time, I would say, like in my
twenties where I really started to after the rupture with
(18:32):
my mom and like her becoming born again, where I
started to really interrogate, what is this thing? And I
was like, why am I? Why is my default? I
know it is it's our society, but why is my
default white? And why is my default of God? Just
like a man? And to me, what I've come to
over the years is if I can imagine what God is,
I'm probably not even close.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
That.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Like, if I can like picture what I think God
looks like, I'm probably not close to it. Because that
whatever built, whatever this is beyond humans. But also the bugs,
the flowers. I don't know if that is like a person.
I don't know if that is a it's not a
white man. And so for me, I've read defined. I
call it Augie Augi ancestors, Universe, God, intuition. I love that,
(19:19):
like that it's a culmination of things that I worship,
my ancestors, the universe, God, whatever that is, and intuition
because God is in you as.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
Well, Yes, absolutely right, like we are a reflection of that.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Yes, yes, I think it's first book First Book of John,
Chapter four, verse eight.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
God is love, this idea that like it's not about
hate and the bigotry.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
It's like it's you.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
And if God is love, then I've been saying in
the show then to love God in its purest form,
detached from colonized religions, religious fanatics and televangelists is to
love you. You get to be the love of your life.
And that, to me is always the missing piece in
some churches is that it becomes external and it's like no, no,
like this thing, say, God, isn't you? Where does God live?
(20:03):
Not up in the sky. It's like heaven is here, yes,
Hell is also career here.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
My mom would say that growing up that like heaven
is not above and below. She might believe that now
because she's gone on a different journeys growing up. When
she was like exploring other things, she was like, people
are in heaven right now, or they're in Hell right now,
or they're in you know, purgatory right now, Like this
is the moment. You're not you're not living for something
after like this is this is your life?
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Right? Like wake up to it?
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Right? And I think I think I always say who
you are with is a reflection of how you see.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Your say that again, please, who you are with is
a reflection of how you see yourself.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
Yes, yes, And that can be romantic, that can be platonic. Yeah,
Because if you look at your friends, you're saying a
reflection of yourself. If you look at your partner, you're
saying a reflection of yourself.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
And I think how you see God is a reflection
of yourself as well. And if you see God as
someone that separates, yes, that divides, angry, that that is
a judge, as a judgmental God, or is one that
approves or disapproves of certain behaviors or won't allow this
(21:13):
one or that one to get into heaven because what
they're doing here on the planet Earth. Yes, and that
is a reflection of you, not some spiritual existence that
is out in the world. God is what you make it.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
We get to define God for ourselves.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
And we get to define what church is like discovered
in terms ofs church.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
This is church to me absolutely right, like sitting across
from somebody you love, looking on lollipops having a conversation. Yes,
that is that's fellowship is gathered, a fellowship that like
like that we've sometimes created such a limited idea of
what church is and what worship looks like. And it's
like no, when you are with people that you love,
(21:55):
even if they're a stranger, like somebody you just met,
but you're connecting and you're talking and you're celebrating, or
maybe you're not even talking, maybe it's a silent just like.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Five or do you want to sound bad?
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Yeah, Like that is worship, That is church, that is God.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Yes. Or meditating together, yes, yes, it's the same. It
is not different from prayer, right, And I think oftentimes
people value two people praying together over two people meditating together, yes,
you know, or two people in a mosque. You know
what I'm saying. We are all the same, yes, And
I think society wants us to believe that we are
all very different and in ways we are unique for sure, absolutely,
(22:35):
but internally we all want the same things.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
That's rue, to love and to be loved, to be seen, yes,
to see and to be seen. There's that quote that
other from My Angela, that is by the rumin philosopher Terrence,
I am a human being that something human can be
alien to me, which is like, yeah, like whatever your
background or our differences are of how we look, our
size is are cultural, but we're both human.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Absolutely, blood is running through us.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
So I can understand even if I don't understand your
exact lived experience, I can understand your desire to be loved.
I can understand heartbreak. I can understand your loneliness, sadness
or your happiness or I can understand that, and I
can I hope in the best of us, like not
just hold space for that, like, but but honor that,
(23:25):
you know, and be softer with you because I know
that this thing is hard. Yeah, you know, I know
this life thing is hard, and I've I've this is
my last like two or three years of like the
word softness. How do I become softer because everything is
hard and so things, people are running behind on this
and the train is late for that and this is
like okay, but I'm not going to show up and
(23:45):
like beat you down because of it, because I know
you're trying to do your best right, So, like, how
can I be softer with you?
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Absolutely?
Speaker 1 (23:51):
How can I be softer with myself? How can I
give myself grace?
Speaker 3 (23:54):
Absolutely?
Speaker 1 (23:54):
It's not about you excusing poor behavior over and over,
but it's going we're all humans and trying the.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Best, dude, the best we can of what we have,
what we know and have. Yeah, And that's why artists
are so such a threat to people empower, because artists
are here to remind you of everyone's humanity and to
remind you, I say, we're dealers of empathy. We remind
you to be empathetic, you know, even if you look
(24:23):
at you know, Ryan Murphy's new series right where he's
examining the darkest places.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
The darkest corners of.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
Our society, of our humanity. And I think there's an
idea that maybe is he trying to make us feel
for people that have done something that we can't imagine
another person could possibly do to another human being. And
I don't know. I can't speak for him, but I
think one there is a fascination that clearly society has
(24:53):
with the corners of the world he likes to tap into.
And I think people are fascinated by it because they
are one wondering how someone who is also a part
of the same human sort of species, if you will, yes,
could do something that they can't even fathom. And I
don't know if there's a particular lesson in that. But
what we're saying is that we all need to look
(25:16):
at each other, even when it's difficult, yeah, to understand
someone else's behavior, and you don't have to necessarily agree
with it or even approve, but I think it is
our responsibility to at least look at every single person
and know that they are a person and that they
will once a child just like us.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
I think that that's a really hard thing for people.
Is that like we want to just like immediately not
you know, we want to immediately.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
Dismiss or look away.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
And it's like, yes, accountability all that stuff, but also
if we're not going to talk about it, things continue
to happen.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Just because you look away from someone doesn't mean they
don't exist.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Exactly, And if we don't understand why it exists, then
like that thing has a chance showing up in ourselves exactly.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
And the truth is is that if you don't face something, yeah,
then you can't change it. Not that everything is meant
to be changed by you, But I think turning away,
turning a blind eye is never the answer. Yeah, But
rather why not sit in things that make us feel
uncomfortable and and be okay with that uncomfortability.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
That's why I love doing this show is you know,
sex is uncomfortable, but it's like, no, no, let's just talk
about it and then you can do whatever. Everything we
say here you might not agree with, you might not
even want to try, but like the ability to talk
about it, I think creates space in you to say, well,
what do you.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Want to do?
Speaker 3 (26:39):
I think? But my question is always it goes back
to my other religion. Is the word why? You know, yes,
why does talking about sex make people uncomfortable? And for
everybody the answer is different. But I think a lot
of that is societal. Of course, it is suppressed and
(26:59):
so and the thing is is that if you think
about sex and the act of it, it is a
very that can also be a place of worship for someone.
That is also a search and spirituality.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
In your body. Yeahthing like that your body is a temple.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
Yes, it is a spiritual experience. And so for some people,
it's not. For some people it always is. For some
people's it's a way to make a living, and some
people are afraid of it so that they don't have it.
Some people are like, I'm celibate for this reason or
that reason, and I think when we don't have ownership
over our sexuality, it affects other areas of our lives.
(27:37):
And so if society doesn't want us to be free
in it and to talk about it openly and freely,
and to enjoy it in all the ways that it
can exist in a consensual manner, I think think about
how our society would look if we took the lid
off of sexual freedom and said we are all will
(28:00):
talk and will be open. Because often how are people
shamed in our society. It is often to do with
what they are turned on by, Yes, what they want
to do in the privacy of their own home. Yes,
Because who they want to love, how they choose to love,
how they want to be loved, especially in terms of
what whether they be a pastor a basketball player, a
(28:21):
person who plays football. You know, it's sort of a
pop star. People are so caught up and how a
person is turned on and who they're turned on by
and what brings them pleasure. It is something that for
some reason we have not been able to allow folks
to live and let live when it comes to sex
(28:42):
and sexuality. I think that's why what you're doing while
the whole church is so important because what you're saying
to people is sex too can be a religion. Yes,
do not be afraid to worship at the sight of
your own body.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
And because so many people are taught to be ashamed
of what they want wanted, yeah, of what turns them
on to do it in a secret like to clear
the porn hub history. You know what I'm saying. And
to me, I think that that is what is holding
us back in so many ways. And I think until
(29:16):
we can walk through that uncomfortability and do away with
shame and embarrassment, I think we're gonna behind n eight
ball for a whole lot longer.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
Yeah, And sometimes society has to reckon with because sexuality
is your choice, is your right. You are free. You
do not have to have boring sex or no sex
at all because you feel ashamed of the kind of
sex that you want to have. We have to get
free in the bedroom before we can get free in
the other areas about life.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
I always say like, if you can be vulnerable and
ask for what you want and know what you want
in the bedroom, you could take over the world.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
And also people should prioritize their pleasure yes, well that
what we're sa. I think there are people that sometimes
prioritize their partner's pleasure so that way they can keep them,
and I think that's a misconception.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
We prioritize our partner's pleasure, We prioritize penetration, and it's
like sex and penetration.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
We do prioritize penetration.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
It's like if you don't put it in then like it's.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
If it's yes, or that it has to only be
between two people? Right?
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Absolutely, sex with yourself?
Speaker 3 (30:18):
Hello?
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Hello?
Speaker 3 (30:19):
Right, three people? Give me one person? Absolutely, because it's
really sex is not binary.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
It's not binary.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
It's actually far more expansive than we allow ourselves to
talk about. I actually had somebody come to one of
the previews for Home Church and they came up to
me after and they were like, I'm a forty year
old virgin. She's not by choice, but I'm a church girl.
And she's like, I wondered, what if this shame isn't mine?
Like what if I have been told to have this shame?
Speaker 3 (30:47):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (30:47):
And she's like the show made me go, what if
what if I've been holding out like this? Because I
thought like there's something wrong or or I would be
bad if I had sex or whatever. And then it
turns out like that wasn't even telling you, No, that
was some and h and focus on you instead of
(31:08):
focus on themselves. Right, It's like that's something the power
of sex is like it requires you to not be
the sheep, but to be the shepherd. Yes, right to
like to go. I have control over this. I can
get information from you, I can get influence from you.
I can get ideas from you. But at the end
of the day, even if I go to church every Sunday,
at the end of the day, I gotta come home
and be with myself. I can't just do what you
(31:30):
said because you said it, because you're the pastor. I
have to be like, oh, what works for me. I
have a mentor, Ellen Barbera who says, take what you need,
take what's useful, leave the rest. And that to me
is like how you should engage with anything anything we
say here church. You go like, take what you need to,
(31:51):
take what's useful, and then leave the rest.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
Yeah, nothing is gospel. And and the thing is is
that I don't understand and a lot of people do this,
particularly women sort of I think are told how to
live and how to behold because in our society we
technically our second class citizens because we do live in
a patriarchal society. That's not an opinion, that's a fact
that literally. And the thing is, it's like so many
(32:15):
women because I don't show up as a feminine presenting person,
I don't live underneath the male gaze, and I'm not ladylike.
And because of that, because I have quote unquote masculine attributes,
it can be you know, seen as a certain way
or described a certain way because I'm a woman, and
I'm supposed to behave a certain way because I'm a woman.
(32:37):
And so what I refused was to live by society's
rules for me, and therefore I live a very free life.
And when people look at me they see freedom. They don't,
you know, they kind.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
Of look what's happening, you know what it is, but
it's like it's freedom.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
When people look at queer people and looking for the
trans people, they see freedom.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
That's why there's so much attack on it.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
Correct because you're like, oh, they're free, and if they
can be free, they're why.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
It's like, no, you can't be doing that. So it's
just easy to be like cut.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
Them, yeah, say like no, yeah, you know what I'm saying.
And so I think the idea of living under someone
else's rule, yes, it's foreign, yes to me. And if
someone wants to live under someone else's rule, that is
their rights, absolutely, And if you are not happy about that,
that is also your right to not be happy, to
(33:26):
not be pleased with your life. But I think all
a lot of people are asking is but for those
that choose not to live under the rules of society,
allow us to be happy as well.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
Please.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
And the question is like I always ask this question,
you know, which is who would I be of society
never got its hands on me? And it's a scary question.
And now it's easy for me to ask, but it
is scary when people are like, I'm looking at all
this freedom and I want my own freedom, but I
don't know where to begin. And then if you go, well,
who would I be of society never got its hands
on me?
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Suddenly all the.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Social scripts go away because I'm going just because you
don't have to do that, because you're a woman, because
you're man, because you're like, it's what what do you
want to do?
Speaker 2 (34:03):
You know? It's like it's kind of scary to go.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Let me shake off the societal pressures and figure out
what works for me and how do I want to be?
And I think that you don't have to do it
all at once, right, Like it's it's maybe bit by bit.
It might start with like for me is like I
might be like, you know what, I want to wear heels,
so put a heel on, or you might go fuck
as a woman, I hate heels and I'm never gonna
(34:28):
put a heel Like you want to get start small things,
but it's just like, can you start to just gently
interrogate what are the things that you're doing because your
mom told you to do what, your dad told you
to do it, your teachers told you to do it,
your pastor told you to do it, And asked like,
do I actually want to do that?
Speaker 3 (34:42):
Yeah? Like do you want to be wearing makeup?
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Period?
Speaker 3 (34:45):
Do you want to like wear your hair? Do you
want to straighten your hair?
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (34:49):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Is that why question? It's like, well, why am I
doing that? Why am I do Is that my desire?
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Or is that because somebody told me that is what
I should do?
Speaker 3 (34:55):
You want to be with the person you're with. Do
you like the job that you have doing it because
it makes your family proud? Yes?
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Do you want to have kids?
Speaker 3 (35:05):
Do you really want to have kids?
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Have kids?
Speaker 3 (35:08):
And if so, why why? And not in like a
you should like to bring.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
A light like let's have this conversation which I know
we've had, which is that to me, children and twelve
children are so precious. And then also as adults, a
lot of us are in therapy because of our parents.
And I don't think that you know, and I don't
think there's any way like for a parent to not
in some way their kid up. It's impossible.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
You can't not fuck your kid up.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
You're gonna do it.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
It's gonna happen.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
But I do think that there's an intentionality and like
I I why am I having a kid? If I
can know what that answer is, then there's an intentionality
that can show up with them and I can see
them as a person as opposed to sometimes kids are
seen as props, or they are seen as an extension
of their parents, extension of your parent, or they are
(35:54):
a bandaged to fix something, or they weren't even thought
about right.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
I was like, I was just like oh, and then like.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
What does that do to that kid who comes into
the world and doesn't know anything? And they are here
to fix the relationship where they are an afterthought or
or they.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Are extend or an extension, they're here.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
To fulfill your drinks correct, somebody else is probably. So
It's like if you ask the question why don't why
do I want kids? You might discover I discovered this.
I wanted kids my whole life. I thought I wanted kids,
Like my whole plan was, won't get marriage, won't have kids.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
And then I d a kid. And then like three
or four.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Years ago, I went to after the Writer's Strike, I
went to Amsterdam like for like one of those like solo,
What's my life about?
Speaker 2 (36:38):
And I was like, oh, I don't want kids?
Speaker 3 (36:40):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (36:41):
And I started weeping.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
I was like, I was like, oh, oh, I thought
I was gonna have kids. And I thought if I
had kids, then maybe it would repair my relationship with
my mother because I could go, yes, I'm gay, but
look I have kids and so I'm normal.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
And so I.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Realized having kids was away from me to feel normal,
and like I was just like everybody.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Yeah I'm gay, but like you know I have kids,
and so like, I'm like you.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
How And when I didn't need to feel normal anymore,
and when I did, when I could give up like,
oh who would I be? A society never got its
hands on me. I don't need anyone's approval. Then it
was like, well, do you want kids? I was like, oh,
no that I don't know. I don't need I think
I can be a parent in other ways. I think
i'd be a great god parent.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
I'm like, you know, like a great but I don't
actually need to be a parent. And that was.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
I mean, that's let that piece literally just everything then
just not fell apart, but opened up.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
Yeah. Yeah, No, I think I think I was a
little bit like you as well. I think I thought
I was supposed to have kids, yeah, And I thought
it was a natural progression that I was meet someone,
we would start a life, and that would.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Just be a part of it, the social script. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:57):
And then I think as my career started to take
off and I started to get you know, really wrapped
up in what I was doing, and not in a
way that I think is bad, in a way that
was actually inspiring and exciting and invigorating. And then I
just kind of thought to myself, I don't have the
capacity right now to take on the pressures of what
(38:17):
it is to be a parent. And then as I
continued in my life, there was never a window or
a moment wherever it felt like, oh, now I have
the capacity or now I really want to do it. Yeah,
And so because that wasn't coming, and then you know,
I'm forty one, now, I really started to ask myself
really like just I mean really, is only a few
short years ago where it got really clear where I
(38:39):
thought to myself, you know what, I will never have
the capacity to be a parenteah. And then I also
realized I didn't have a desire to be a parent.
And I even think the language that we're using is
very different from I think there's a difference between wanting
to have a child and wanting to be a parent. M.
(39:05):
I can have a child, Yeah, I can do that. Yes,
I do not desire to be Yeah, yeah, have a child,
but also don't desire to be a child's parent. Yes, Yes,
I don't want to be a parent, yes, And I
have to understand that distinction.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
That is masterful. I never that's masterful. Yeah, And wanting
a child and wanting to be a parent.
Speaker 3 (39:29):
Correct. I don't want my life to change in the
way that your life has to change when you when
you're a parent.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Absolutely, absolutely, Because I.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
Can pass that child off to someone else, I can
hire a living nanny, I can have a child. Yes,
I could have a child, but I would not be
raising it. Yes, Yes, because I don't have the capacity
to do so.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (39:50):
What I do have capacity for is to pour into
myself and my community and all the partnerships that surround me,
because I don't believe partnership has to be romantic. And
when I get home at the end of a long day,
all I want to do is to be quiet, yes,
and to pour into myself. Yes, to watch something. I
(40:13):
have to read something before I go to bed, and
then I have to make sure I get to sleep.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
Yes, and that you get yes.
Speaker 3 (40:21):
Attracting it with my or Okay, I'm tracking my level
of readiness and energy. And I witness a lot of
parents around me. Also witness people that have children. There
are people that have children, There are people that are parenting. Yeah,
we witness.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
All the time, and some people really do want to
be parents. I think that's such a beautiful distinction.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
Some people really do do you want to have a
child or do you want to be a parent.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
And some people really do want to be parents, and
they're fabulous at it. I've seen those parents, like they're
incredible at it. But we also see people that have
children children. Yeah, yeah, And I think I realized, oh,
I don't want to be I think so, I think, yeah,
I don't want to be a parent, like a child
will be fun up, you know, like to be a
parent and the parent that I know i'd want to be.
(41:10):
I know that I the parent, especially with my history
of you know, being a strange to my mom for
fifteen years.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
Right, I'm not in community, you know.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
Yeah, So like so knowing that I know that if
I were to have a child, I'd want to be
a different kind of parent.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
And the type of parent that I would.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Want to be would require a lot more than I
have the capacity for, or that I.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
Want capacity for.
Speaker 3 (41:31):
Right. And I think some of the best parents I witness, uh,
they are just making space for their child to be
whoever it is they're going to be.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
Yes, yes, And I because we also.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
See those parents that need their child to be something
for them put.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Them in the box.
Speaker 3 (41:51):
Yes, like I need you to do this. I need
you to be successful with that. I need you to
be married with kids at this age. I need you
to graduate so I can talk about yourself. I need
to move for a certain age. I need you to
dress a certain way. I need you to be straight.
I need you to straighten your hair. I need you
to to do these things.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
I also need you to remain my child. How old
you are, you're still my child.
Speaker 3 (42:10):
I also need you to take care of me when
i'm older.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, I need.
Speaker 3 (42:14):
You to make me feel like you were worth the sacrifice.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
Yes, that's a very different There's.
Speaker 3 (42:19):
A lot of children out here with burdens on their
backs before they can even walk. A lot of children
walking around with burdens that their parents are giving them
and their parents don't even know where they're doing it.
And a lot of children feel like a burden. Yeah,
I know. I felt like.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
Because the parents haven't interrogated their own who they are,
what they want.
Speaker 3 (42:37):
And we can have empathy for those parents because you
can't give what you didn't get. And if you were
raised as a burden, then your child might face the same.
Uh you know, fate?
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Yes, I've sland.
Speaker 3 (42:49):
But there are some people who realize, hey, I felt
like I had to be something from my mother, So
therefore I won't make my child feel that way that
they have to be something from me. Some people break
the cycle. Some people don't know how to.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
Some people cycle one thousand percent.
Speaker 3 (43:04):
They like, this is just how you do.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
This is how you do it.
Speaker 3 (43:06):
You raise your kid to be a carbon copy of you,
which is why.
Speaker 1 (43:10):
On this show, I say, you know, being a hoe
is someone who commits the celebration of themselves and others
by thoughtfully interrogating their relationship to sex using curiosity, communication, communication,
and compassion. It's just like, oh, I'm going to interrogate
who am I? Because if you start to like ask
those questions of yourselves, then I think you can see
if you're in a cycle. Right. But if you're not
asking questions, you're not asking why, if you're not asking questions,
(43:32):
if you're not being curious about who you are, and
you're just kind of going through the motions. So I
do this at this age, or do this by this age,
then you pass it on.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
Everybody should ask themselves before they have a kid, why
do I want to have children? Why do I want
to have Why do I want to be a parent?
Speaker 2 (43:45):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (43:46):
And I think whatever that answer is is valid absolutely.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
And again there are people who want to be parents
and should be.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
Parents, right, And like I was, ask themselves, why don't
we want to be parents? And the answers are different
and they're all valid. Absolutely, everybody's right. Everybody is right.
If you want to have kids because you want to
have kids, you're right, great, do it. If you want
to have kids because you want to be a parent,
you're right absolutely.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
But whatever it is, I think it's just like, do
it intentionally.
Speaker 3 (44:10):
If you want to have kids to fix your marriage,
then say that you know why you're doing it. If
you want to have kids because you want to have
a little version of yourself, then just say that know.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
Why you're doing it, so that like you can actually
live in the truth of what's happening exactly as opposed
to being confused.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
Yeah, don't try to convince us to something that's not.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Say what it is, what it is, and it's beautiful.
Speaker 3 (44:28):
And we'll say fine. Yes, if it makes you feel
uncomfortable with the truth, then that's a whole other thing
for you. But let the truth be what it is
unless be sitting that and own that. Let's call it
a thing.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
Do just have church?
Speaker 3 (44:45):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (44:46):
We did?
Speaker 3 (44:47):
Okay, Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
Okay, Alda, let us uh, let's wrap this up.
Speaker 3 (44:55):
I know another classic episode when I come, we're gonna
talk about being a strange for our parents while we
don't want to be parents, and how we define religion
for ourselves, and why sex is our own, our own,
our own playground. Yeah, okay, yeah, we can do it
with ourselves with two people up more. Absolutely, we have
a right to do that because we're consenting and we grown. Okay,
(45:18):
this episode is called and okay, I'm gonna live my
life the way I see fit. You have a problem
with it, that's fine, that's fine.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
You're right, you're right, You're right right about it in
your journal. I don't need to know about it. I
don't care.
Speaker 3 (45:30):
You could tell me. You could tell and I listen
intently and say, that's fair.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
That's fair, And then I'm gonna keep living my.
Speaker 3 (45:38):
Life that's true, because that's also fair.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
I think.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
I mean for me, I think that I'm gonna ask
you this question. I would define church. I would define
church for myself as anything that allows me to live freely.
That like, for me, churches because it's not just about
(46:05):
like all the joy, because there are I think there
are like church holds you in those sad moments too.
And so how would I define church for myself?
Speaker 3 (46:14):
Good question? I think for me, church is a place
of solitude. Some think when I'm alone at the crib,
where i'd be quiet, listening to records, watching a documentary
that is moving me or giving me knowledge I didn't
(46:34):
have before. Yeah, sitting with my dogs.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Ye, cuddling of the dogs, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (46:42):
Cuddling of any kind and listen to a voice. No,
you know, sometimes a joint is involved, not always, but yeah,
church is peace, it is, but also it can be
you know a place of turbulence as well. And you know,
being aymous, you know, having.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
A bonomous period.
Speaker 3 (47:04):
You know, these and turbulence are both needed. Yeah, in
order for me to exist. So that's that's that's always
charge to me.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
I think I second all of that, and I think
for me, I'm going to define it as it's like
taking care of myself. I started looking in the mirror
and like, you know, it's it's interesting to like I'm
thirty eight, but like I'm sure, like I feel, I
still feel like it.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
Could be twenty. I don't know what that is.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
Like you're like, I don't know, ages, but I'm looking
at myself in the mirror and I'm seeing my face
and my body change anything.
Speaker 3 (47:34):
I looked at me her and I said, I love.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
You, and like I literally said, no matter what happens,
like I will be here for you, because you know,
things happen and life happens, and people come and go
and change. I looked at myself in the mirror and
I said, you will never be alone, like I got you.
And so that to me is church, like churches is
(48:00):
taking care of yourself and loving yourself no matter what.
That you know that no matter what the world does,
no matter what your family does, your blood does, your
boss does, like you have you and that you.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
Will, you will you, that you will be, that you
will be your own parent.
Speaker 3 (48:17):
That's right, that's right, that's beautiful. Yeah, that's gorgeous. I
second that.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
Okay, Well I guess.
Speaker 3 (48:28):
Yes, that's how I have a lot of people. Yeah yeah, yeah,
while I'm waiting for other folks to love them so
they can love them. Yeah, no, no, you gotta with
you starts with you. You got to love yourself, Yes
you must.
Speaker 2 (48:38):
Yeah, I love you.
Speaker 3 (48:40):
I love you, Brandon. Thank you for being here, thank
you for having me.
Speaker 2 (48:43):
Let's see you soon.
Speaker 3 (48:43):
Yeah you will.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
Well you know we are hoes here, but ho with heart.
So before we part ways, let me speak to yours.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
And I got my heart with me. I feel what
we named him, Herman, Herman the heart period. Okay.
Speaker 1 (49:09):
In thinking about how we interrogate who we are, you know,
the question that I ask is who would I be
if society never got its hands on me. That was
a really groundbreaking question for me because it started to
allow me to get curious about what am I doing
that I want to do and what am I doing
because I'm supposed to do it or I think I'm
(49:30):
supposed to do it. So a big part of this
is for me, and again you're going to figure out
what your own way of doing this is. But it
was meditation and journaling.
Speaker 2 (49:38):
It was.
Speaker 1 (49:39):
And by the way, when I say meditation, you know,
if you want to do that, you know that's beautiful.
But I also say, you know, listening to Whitney Houston
sing I Have Nothing is a meditation. So like whatever
it is for you that brings you peace. It could
be a walk, It could it could be painting. Whatever
your meditation is fine, but finding a meditation and then journaling,
(50:00):
whether that's in a physical book or in your notes app,
but asking yourself questions about what do you like, what
do you want, what do you desire? What do you
think you're supposed to do? And then, as Lena said,
asking why it's a gentle interrogation. I want to remind
you that no answer is wrong. This isn't school. You're
(50:21):
not going to ace the test, blunk the test. So
it really is about creating a gentle interrogation, a gentle
pathway to unpacking our boxes. So many of us are
just following the regular social scripts. You think, because you're
a man, you're supposed to do X, Y and Z.
You're a woman, so you do X, Y and Z.
(50:41):
You're gay, so you do ABC.
Speaker 2 (50:44):
Fuck it? Who are you?
Speaker 3 (50:47):
Who are you?
Speaker 1 (50:49):
What do you want to do? How do you want
to live? Who do you want to become? Don't let
other people dictate your life. They've lived their lives. And
respect to parents. I know that we put parents and
families on pedestals, and sometimes we even subject ourselves to
reckless behavior because they are our blood.
Speaker 2 (51:12):
But at a.
Speaker 1 (51:12):
Certain point, you get to protect you. My mentor, Ellen
Barber said once to me, if you were your own parent,
what advice would you give yourself? At some point in
your life, you have to become your own guardian. Now,
if you have a great relationship with your parent, your parent,
that's wonderful, and that still gets to be but you
still have to become your guardian at some point.
Speaker 2 (51:36):
Nobody knows you like you do.
Speaker 1 (51:39):
The trap is some of us don't even know who
we are, and that's why these questions of like why
is important. So ask yourself why about everything? Make it
a game, no stakes, no pressure. You're not going to
figure this all out tomorrow. This journey for me has
been fifteen years long. My mom and I stopped talking
(52:00):
ten years ago, which many of you already know. She
became borning and Christian and I'm a flaming homosexual, honey, okay,
And so those two things were not jiving or aligning,
and so I had to make a really hard decision.
It is the hardest decision I've ever made, but it
was also an important one. Your story doesn't have to
mirror mine, and I really hope it doesn't, and if
(52:20):
it does, I'm so sorry and I love you.
Speaker 2 (52:24):
But the point of it.
Speaker 1 (52:25):
Is to gently interrogate yourself and to remove anything that
stands in the way of you being yourself.
Speaker 2 (52:35):
You got one fucking life, live it. I love you.
Speaker 1 (52:43):
Thank you so much for listening to tell Me Something Messy.
If you all enjoyed the show, send me episode to
someone else.
Speaker 2 (52:49):
You might like it.
Speaker 1 (52:50):
Tell Me Something Messy was executive produced by Ali Perry,
Gabrielle Collins, and Yours Truly. Our producer and editor is
Vince de Johnny. The video of tell Me Something Messy
is produced by Des Lombardo and a special thank you
to Natalie Brandam, who helps you organize and come up
with some of this mess tell Me Something Messy is
a production of iHeart Podcasts on the Outspoken Network. For
(53:11):
more podcasts, listen on the free iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
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