Through The Storm w/ Jordan E. Cooper

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You're listening to tell Me Something Messy with Brandon, Kyle
Goodman and iHeart podcasts on the Outspoken Network. Talking about relationships,
sex and identity always reminds me that being a human
is messy. So I wanted to create a compassionate space
where we could feel less alone and embrace our mess together,
the funny, the vulnerable, the cringe, and even the kinky,

(00:21):
because every part of who we are matters. So don't
be shy, baby, tell me something messy. Messy patrons, come on, baby,
welcome to the show. I am your messy mom, Brandon
Kyle Goodman, and you know what that means. It is
time for a guest. Now, while they get situated, we
will get our messy. Key Key started with a hoe
manifest stove, so repeat after me aloud or in your head.

(00:44):
Grant me the serenity to unpack my shame, the courage
to heal, the wisdom to know that sex is not
about penetration, the audacity to advocate for my pleasure and
my boundaries, the strength to not call my ex that
fuck boy, fuck girl, or fuck they, for it is
better to masturbate by myself in peace than to let

(01:06):
someone play in my mother fucking face. Let the community
say hollelujah, y'all. Today we've got the brilliant trailblazer Jordan E. Cooper,
the youngest black play right on Broadway, creator of eight
No Mo, showrunner of The Miss Pat Show, and the
writer star of the gospel shook O Happy Day that
was just at the Public Theater. He's funny, fearless, and

(01:27):
rewriting the rules. Are y'all ready then please help me
welcome Jordan's Cooper.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
Hey, Jordan, welcome to the show.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
I know we were doing our little key already, but
I have missed you. That's so good to see you,
to see you before.

Speaker 3 (01:46):
Thank you? So are you mister money?

Speaker 1 (01:52):
Skin looks like the money. Okay, wait before we get
too far, and let me give you our messy mandates.
So things to be on process. Any thoughts or opinion shared,
have the right to shift, to change, evolve today, tomorrow,
ten years from now. And if during the kiki something
feels too personal or unintentionally offense, we used to say
word foodsball, which gives us the second to pivot and

(02:12):
address accordingly. Let's do it.

Speaker 3 (02:15):
Have you played? Yes?

Speaker 2 (02:16):
I love I haven't played in so long, but that
was like my favorite.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
Yes, I didn't even know what it was when I
started the show. I was just like I thought it was.
What did I think it was? It's the table soccer,
I think I thought. I thought it involved like a
little racket situation.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
Oh, like we say, that's another ball. What they call
it that?

Speaker 1 (02:35):
I don't know, like a little but it looks is
it cricket?

Speaker 2 (02:38):
I don't ask me.

Speaker 3 (02:40):
I know the foot in the basket, that's all I know.

Speaker 1 (02:43):
Well, another ball?

Speaker 2 (02:45):
Yeah, okay, how about we start.

Speaker 1 (02:50):
With the lou breaker. Yeah, I'm good. Let's we'll do
a smash or pass. Okay, Okay, so I'll give you
a prompt and tell me if you smashed. I know
everybody knows how to do this, but just for the newbies,
you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (03:01):
Okay, smash your pass.

Speaker 1 (03:02):
An ex partner who says they've grown good for them?

Speaker 3 (03:08):
I love that for them. Past Oh that's so great.
Blessed be the blessed be the day, my god. Yeah
you maybe I love that. I love that for you. Yeah,
you know.

Speaker 2 (03:21):
I love to watch an extra just grow into exactly
who they were supposed to be. Absolutely, but I don't
need to be there. I don't need to be I
must not be president.

Speaker 1 (03:31):
We're not spending the block on this.

Speaker 2 (03:33):
No, I tried.

Speaker 3 (03:34):
I tried.

Speaker 1 (03:35):
I'll say this, I've tried to do it because I'm like, well,
your people do grow until let me not hold them
to their whole sanders. But then there's something in my
body that's like it just it stops me every time.
But I guess the question is are you interested in
their growth?

Speaker 2 (03:48):
Because it's like, I know you're growing, but that doesn't
necessarily mean I want your growth. Now.

Speaker 1 (03:53):
If this was a.

Speaker 2 (03:53):
Person who like, I'll be like, huh, if they were
just a little bit wiser, if they made these decisions
and they say they're grown, then I'm like, okay, let's
let's let's see what it is.

Speaker 3 (04:01):
Yeah. But otherwise I'm like, oh, yeah, we might have.

Speaker 1 (04:04):
To do it a therapy first. If you're like we're
growing and I'm interested, and I'm like, let's actually start therapy,
I have the conversation.

Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yeah, because there's not there's nothing wrong with it. Spin
the block if it's healthy.

Speaker 1 (04:13):
If it's healthy, but ten, yeah, no, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (04:17):
I've had it. I've had I've had an ex before
who like who like would use so they will be like, oh,
I've grown right. It was a situation where it was like, oh,
let's let's hang out, right, But this person I knew
had like I didn't know them to have an alcohol yeah,
but like they had an alcohol thing prior to meeting me.
But for some reason on this day of like, let's

(04:38):
me back up, they want to they want to go
to bars and have drinks and so that therefore I
can be there and I can be like, no, don't
don't do that, don't do that, let's not do that.

Speaker 3 (04:47):
I was like, no, you want to go ahead, go ahead,
get your shot.

Speaker 1 (04:52):
I will be across the river, across the risk a
body of water between us. I can get there. Oh yeah.
I really do think sometimes you got to leave the
exes where they where they are, because it's the I
have a tendency to see the potential and to fall
in love with like what my ideal version of you

(05:12):
is as opposed to what I'm actually betting in this moment.
And sometimes I think the hardest thing is to be like,
what am I actually getting in this moment? Right? And
is it? Is it actually enough growth for it? To
be worth it.

Speaker 2 (05:24):
Right, and will grow them up in our heads.

Speaker 1 (05:26):
Yeah, we will grow them up in our heads. Yeah,
A fucking chia pet love god chia. Okay, smash for past,
gospel music during sex, oh past.

Speaker 2 (05:39):
You know what's crazy, tell me is that I had
a roommate one time. Yeah, who would just not stop
having the loudest sex. Mind you, these rooms were so
small that they were supposed to be one big room.
But these people put put a little one of those
things they can get too wet, and they would just
be having the loudest sex in it. So one morning,
it was about two thirty in the morning, I gotta

(06:00):
get up for class in the morning, said you know
what I got up. I put on some Shirley Caesar.
I turned that thing all the way up. I bet
you they started fucking in.

Speaker 3 (06:10):
They got real quiet. They are really.

Speaker 1 (06:16):
Yes, they got quiet, right, they said, Mother Shirley is
on and she's watching love, literally watching she's pull out love.
Please please, Not a friend of mother.

Speaker 3 (06:35):
Smash her past.

Speaker 1 (06:36):
A friend helping you get something out of your nose.
I don't know why. I just got really intes about that,
but I have a question.

Speaker 2 (06:43):
Not a fan, I'd rather you guide me, yes, wire
direct me where that section? Yeah, yeah, but don't put
your fee.

Speaker 1 (06:57):
That's very that's very maternal. I mean it's very close,
and like I feel like, got me first, got me first,
and then if.

Speaker 3 (07:05):
I if I'm not, you know, the struggle.

Speaker 1 (07:09):
Lay hands on me, lay hands on me. Love. Yes,
when you won the game, I'll come on y and
you unconsued of love what you already had. But you
also get a lollipop. Look a, we got tootsie pops.
We got blow pops organic.

Speaker 2 (07:27):
Now what is some more?

Speaker 1 (07:29):
They're they're like I think they're just healthier, but I
like them. They're tasty. Yeah, that's what I usually picked.

Speaker 2 (07:35):
I have to do that.

Speaker 1 (07:36):
Let's do that. Which what flavor did you get?

Speaker 2 (07:37):
I got strawberry smell?

Speaker 1 (07:39):
Okay, that's a good one. I just got a pomegranate pucker,
which is a good one as well.

Speaker 2 (07:44):
Yeah, you got the organic ones.

Speaker 1 (07:46):
I like those ones I usually go.

Speaker 2 (07:47):
To because the food.

Speaker 1 (07:49):
Yeah, right, the blow pipes just be it'd be a
little too much in my.

Speaker 2 (07:53):
Mouth and do and then they be like sharping and
getting it. That's right, that's right, that's right.

Speaker 1 (07:57):
They do cut up a little bit and the gum
don't last long enough for it's not three seconds, and
then it's like get and then I don't. I brought
the Tipsy Pop because a Jacobs was on the show.
She was like, you need Topsy pop, So I brought
Toosy pops. But I'll say I don't want the chocolate
in my lollipop.

Speaker 2 (08:15):
I don't. I don't like chocolate in my Lollipoppy.

Speaker 1 (08:17):
No, I don't. I don't like chocolate in my lollipop.
And I don't like peanut butter in anything anything. I
don't except on the sandwich with some jam.

Speaker 2 (08:25):
Really, peanut please leave.

Speaker 1 (08:29):
You know what I'm saying, Get out of here. Wow. No, No,
I don't want that peanut butter nowhere near.

Speaker 2 (08:34):
You said nothing but a protein shape.

Speaker 1 (08:38):
Maybe because because I can be like, oh, I'm getting
the gains or something like that, but not really. No.
I had a cook the other day. It was called
a Sunday surprise, and my partner gave me a piece
of it and I was like, and I was like,
something's wrong with this? What is wrong with this? What
are the ingredients? What's the surprise? It was peanut butter?
I said, I don't put that in my fucking cooking.

(09:00):
Take that. Wow, be surprised like that. Hold on up,
if you had prompts, if you had prompts, email tell
me something messy at gmail dot com. Speaking of which, Jordan,
can you tell me something messy?

Speaker 2 (09:14):
Listen? I've been reading the Epstein email.

Speaker 1 (09:16):
You've been reading them like like a novel. Yes, read
them like a novel, because.

Speaker 2 (09:19):
It is it is one. Yeah, it's one. And it
says that that, you know the president, you know, the
choka and chi. They said he was guzzling something, He
had his own whole.

Speaker 1 (09:34):
Guzzlings goss something.

Speaker 3 (09:39):
They said someone was in the back of that throat.

Speaker 1 (09:41):
Oh my god, my god. We don't know what's true
or allegedly always allegedly Williams of it all. I saw,
I know, you know, maybe this will make it in,
maybe it won't. But I did see the deep pop
choke prop was in the emails. No, that's my reaction. No,
I said, no, not deep. And I read the email

(10:04):
and it's between him and I think Jeffrey, and they're
talking about chokers, about Trump, talking about Trump, but was going.

Speaker 2 (10:15):
To deliver him?

Speaker 3 (10:17):
What was what?

Speaker 1 (10:20):
Why was deep up in there?

Speaker 2 (10:22):
Maybe it was a healing session.

Speaker 1 (10:24):
Lord, I don't know. Maybe he was trying to deliver them,
but I don't know. I'm very nervous about That's sad, Yeah,
that you never know what people be doing. You don't
know what it is. The number one reason to be
in the.

Speaker 3 (10:34):
House, it's going to work, you do your job.

Speaker 1 (10:39):
We're not gonna say I was their love. That's what
happened to me. I was after after COVID, I was
out because you know, like the social media went up,
so people were like inviting me places. I was like, yeah,
I'm here, I'm gonna go here. And after after a
year of that, I said, I don't really need to
be in a lot of spaces because y'all be doing
a lot of things.

Speaker 2 (10:58):
They be doing. Any smell high, It's smell hot.

Speaker 3 (11:02):
It smells.

Speaker 1 (11:05):
It smells how you walk in.

Speaker 2 (11:07):
It's crazy saying you don't know if it's sex of
COVID when you walk in, it just smelled hot. It's
one of the two.

Speaker 1 (11:14):
It's one of the what's in here, But it does
smell like trouble too, And I feel like that the
safest bet is to be home in the house. I
can't say nothing about me I was in the house,
order say okay, watch a scandal, Olivia, Pope, Okay, ain't

(11:39):
gonna have me. I know. No, I believe the older
I get, the higher I clown, like it's best to
be in the house.

Speaker 3 (11:46):
It is.

Speaker 2 (11:47):
It is because you never know. Even when we talk
about church, you know, I think about like I think
about people like James Cleveland in the gospel industry, who
like was was a godfather of gospel music. Okay't no,
they do me like Jesus. Yeah, he got like hit
after hit after hit. But this man, allegedly.

Speaker 1 (12:09):
This episode.

Speaker 2 (12:11):
Passed away from AIDS aids but the church knew it
his cancer.

Speaker 1 (12:16):
Ah.

Speaker 2 (12:17):
And what happened was a year after he passed away,
he had adopted a son who he had allegedly well,
who he had given AIDS to Ah, who was seventeen,
I believe, and he was like adopting these boys and
like calling them like his sons, but he was like
actually like sexually assaulting.

Speaker 1 (12:36):
Oh my god, and.

Speaker 2 (12:37):
This this is one of the sons ended up suing
the estate like a couple of years after his death
and saying like, hey, like that, I want to be.

Speaker 1 (12:45):
Paid for you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (12:46):
Yes, and the Estates, the Estates. I looked at the
court documents. In the Estates response to the lawsuit was
he should have it should have been obvious that mister
Cleveland had aids. Why would you sleep with him?

Speaker 1 (12:59):
What?

Speaker 2 (13:00):
Yes, they have to send out a court what that's
what legend James Cleveland.

Speaker 3 (13:07):
That's insane.

Speaker 2 (13:08):
It's wild, it's wild, it's wild.

Speaker 1 (13:10):
I don't even know what you do with that.

Speaker 3 (13:13):
What do you do with it?

Speaker 2 (13:15):
Because also it's like, that's the thing about the church specific,
church in general, especially the Black church, is like, you know,
they they still speak his name. You know, you still
got the James Cleveland Award at the Stellar Awards. You know,
all these things because either people don't know, or they
just don't want to know, or.

Speaker 1 (13:31):
Well that second part I think is so curious about
the church. I think the church in general. But you know,
I think both of us grew up in black churches,
so we could speak about that, which is that like
there is a if somebody has done a lot for
the community publicly, yeah, but they're doing some crazy shit privately.
We ignore it all the time.

Speaker 2 (13:52):
Civil rights movement, Yeah, yeah, like there were so many
men who were doing all kinds of stuff.

Speaker 1 (13:57):
Yeah, you know, it.

Speaker 2 (14:00):
Was like, oh, well, they're doing you know, they're doing
what they're supposed to do. And I feel like that
trickles down into family dynamics too. You know, Oh, this
person pays the rent, or this person pays the big right,
this person does.

Speaker 1 (14:09):
And so we excuse their misbehavior. But then a lot
of there are a lot of victims that fall.

Speaker 2 (14:13):
Out of that, exactly exactly.

Speaker 1 (14:19):
M Well, then that brings us to you know, you
and I have both written these shows that center around
religion and church, and so will you actually tell us
about oh happy day?

Speaker 2 (14:31):
Yeah, so a happy Day was. It's basically my own
modern retelling of Noah's Arc through the lens of this
young black queer sex worker who basically believes that he's
been told by God that he needs to save his
family from the storm or else they're all going to die.
Mind you, this is a family who kicked him out
when he was a teenager because for being queer. So

(14:51):
it's this whole idea of like grace and like what
does it look like to like actually be able to
have these hard conversations in the family dynamics when religion
is at the center of it, or God is at
the center of it. And then what happens when the
person who was shunned and told that they were going
to hell and told that they were this and they
were that is actually the one with direct connection to God?

Speaker 1 (15:12):
So what inspired you to write this? So where did
that come from?

Speaker 2 (15:14):
That came from like just growing up black and queer
in the South and you know, constantly living with those
those dynamics of like thinking that, oh I'm going to hell,
Oh God hates me, you know, shaming sexuality, all these things.
And then I think I got to a point when
I was in college, when I moved to New York
where I was like, Yo, what if what if you know,
they were wrong? What if they were all wrong? What
if that one that actually has the divine connection is

(15:36):
the queer being?

Speaker 3 (15:37):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (15:38):
Yeah, And so it started from that, from that expiration,
and I started writing it before I even really came
out to my parents, which is why it took me
so long to right. It took me seven years to
write that point.

Speaker 1 (15:48):
Oh wow.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yeah, because I kept picking it up and putting it
down and picking it up and putting it down, and
I realized that I wasn't yet mature enough to receive
what the play was trying to tell me. And sometimes
I feel like as artists were given things that were
not yet ready to put out into the earth. But
they're meant to teach us something, not us tease the
world something.

Speaker 1 (16:04):
You know, I love. Okay, there are couple of places
I want to go, which the first place is down
to the writer, because I do think that people want
to write their things immediately, yeah micro wave. And I've
learned and I've wanted that, you know, And when I
started writing, it's like, oh, yeah, like I want I
want to write this and put it out tomorrow. And
what I've started to learn is it doesn't work like that.

(16:25):
That like you, you really do have to pick it up,
put it down at the writing is also not always
pen to paper or sitting at the computer. That is
living that you have to get the experience that you
might have that nugget, but you really have to live
a little bit more to be able to actually fully
realize this thing. How do you sit in the patience
of writing?

Speaker 2 (16:44):
Oh, the patience of writing. That's a great question because
it takes a lot of it. And I think that
that's every artist's goal is like to be able to
write something and be like pop it out as genius,
you know what I mean, like put it up today.
But I think I gave up a few times. I
had to give up a few times because I sometimes,

(17:06):
you know, writing is like stuttering, like you like are
like each draft you're trying to say the thing that
you're trying to say, and not until you hit that
right draft that you're like, oh, I can finally say
the word I'm meant to say.

Speaker 1 (17:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:17):
And so I gave up a couple of times because
I was so frustrated at how opposite the reality was
from what I desired. Like I was like, oh, well,
maybe this just isn't supposed to go out into the world,
or maybe I just like you know, it's just not
supposed to exist. So I was like fighting with my
own eternal emotional journey of what the play was doing.

(17:40):
But I was also fighting with like like the political
idea of like doing a play like that in a
city like New York City, which is not a city
that likes to talk about God or church or anything
to do with it, you know what I mean. And
so like that pain or that not pain but that
like idea of I kind of likened it too, especially

(18:02):
with the blackness of it all. I like it. I
told somebody recently that, like sometimes when I opened up
my place in New York City, I feel like, imagine
if Fiddler on the Roof had his very first production
at the Apollo Theater, Wow, with a whole bunch of
non Jewish. Yeah, yeah, to not even understand the culture
and not understand not none of it. But that's that

(18:22):
production is what the work is judged.

Speaker 1 (18:24):
Going.

Speaker 2 (18:25):
Wow, that's what it feels like doing like like super
black work sometimes in a city like this. Yes, it's
like they're just it's for an audience, these people who
usually go to the American theater who don't necessarily get
every Yes, that's.

Speaker 1 (18:39):
So interesting because one of the things that I've been
this is my first time, is my first time doing
a run of any kind, Like usually I'm a one night,
couple of nights. This person that I've done like a
full like workshop previews, opening, closing situations.

Speaker 2 (18:54):
So glad you animate that happened.

Speaker 1 (18:55):
Yes, it's very I mean, like we can talk about
the stamina of it. I want to talk to you
the stamina of my guiding the show but then also
being the lead of the show is insane. But one
of the things I kept saying is I can't wait
for the show to find its audience because when my
audience is there, it's magic. Yes, But when you're dealing
with an audience that isn't your audience, it can make

(19:18):
you question does this actually work? Or like it kind
of worked, but it's like, oh yeah, I can't judge
it off of that. Because it's the same thing I
would say to writers coming up. It's like, if you're
if you're a writer of color or a queer writer
in a writer's room, most likely you're one of the
only black folks in that room. So what writer of
my big mouth would like make these living single jokes

(19:39):
and the room wouldn't get it, And so it's easy
for me to go, oh, we're not funny. It's like no, no, baby,
it's just they don't culturally like they're gonna make friends
jokes or sign bill jokes, and I'm not necessarily gonna
get that. And so it's easy for a writer to
question their validity if they're not around people who understand
the kind of cultural background and so having to like

(20:00):
I seck that and take that apart. So how do
you navigate when you're like, oh, I'm going to put
this show up, but I'm not necessarily always going to
have my audience and I have the public theater's audience
or the New York the audience, Right, that's not always mine.
How do you how do you, I think, maintain the
integrity of it or also the emotional stamina of that.

Speaker 2 (20:20):
Yeah, oh that's such a great question. I can't lie
like it. It's frustrating, Yeah, artist, it's so frustrating. Yeah,
but there's nothing like whenever like I have, like it.
All we would need is like a good ten fifteen
black people in that audience. Oh, the show was completely different.

(20:42):
It's like like it was like it was like because
they get every single joke, they get every single nuance
the moment, you know what I mean. But it was
it was really like, you know, I like what you
said about you know the integrity of it, because I
feel like so often what artists tend to do when
they make those jokes and they then they changed their
they changed it.

Speaker 3 (21:02):
Yeah, they changed.

Speaker 2 (21:03):
Themselves so that they can be understood. And that's one
thing that like I'm grateful that I don't have the
instinct to do like I don't have the instinct to like,
let me change this joke to something that you'll recognize
or reference that you'll recognize. It's like, no, let the
thing be the thing. And I think that I have
the privilege too. I was selling this the other day
of like growing up with like my first exposure to
theater were those Chiplin circuit plays that people brought on

(21:26):
bootleg and were you know, bought it the barbershops and
the So it's like my first exposure to theatre before
I knew Shakespeare and you know, elementary school or sixth grade,
and before I knew Neil Simon, and before I knew Soinheim,
before I knew all these people that I love. I
knew Shelley Garrett, I knew Jakaris Johnson, I knew Tyler Perry,

(21:46):
I knew David E. Talbert, I knew you know, James Lawrence.
I knew these men who were like doing these like
black theater plays. And so I think because that was
my introduction into the space. Therefore, I I was raised
with no rules. Yeah, I didn't have to, Like I
knew that I didn't have to like conform to this

(22:07):
specific Tri State area audience. I knew that there was
an audience beyond you know, yes that would understand my
authenticity because like I was doing plays in my living
room like cut on my mom's weave and my dad's
working the form and doing plays and it wasn't and
I was doing it before I even saw the chilling
circuit place. And that was just the first time I
was like, oh, snap, like people do this, Like that's
a thing, Like people have an audience, have lights, coss,

(22:30):
you know what I mean. And so I think that
like because that is the seed that I come from.
I have this pride in my blackness, and I have
this pride in like, oh no, you may not get it,
but there is a getting to be got.

Speaker 1 (22:45):
Right.

Speaker 2 (22:47):
And you know, even when it comes to like my
TV work with the Miss Paschow, I felt the same thing.
Where originally we shot the pilot, we were at Hulu
when we did that first while before I went to
be TV at Hulu, and it was crazy because like
I'll be getting these notes like because there were no
black people on the on the like like executive team
right at that time, right because this is pre on

(23:10):
expre pre George Floyd. You know, so so there was
basically no black people giving us notes. But we're doing
this black ass, black ass show. It was so great,
and I would be getting notes about like what's the
kitchen and like why she yelling at her kids and

(23:31):
like like I feel like she can't talk to her
kids that way or I feel like and my thing
was like, that's the like, you can't tell me to
change the recipe before my people taste the cake, you know,
because you don't understand, like I'm creating this out of
a gumbo of legacy, out of a gumbo of culture
that you know nothing about. So you can't tell me, oh,

(23:53):
I need I need a little bit less salt and
pepper if baby, you don't know what salt pepper tastes
like in the first place.

Speaker 1 (23:59):
Yes, you know they we're the shepherd of the story
of the culture and they're not like yeah, and knowing
and knowing that you have the right to advocate for that.

Speaker 2 (24:07):
Right right and knowing the difference between like a story
note and a culture.

Speaker 1 (24:11):
Note one thousands.

Speaker 2 (24:13):
You because it's like it's not like just going up
in there and be like ah, fuck, yeah, y'all know
each other. It's like, no, okay, I'm gonna listen to everything.
It's on a toolbox, you know what I mean. It's
like I'm gonna leave this wrench, take this hammer. I'm
gonna tell you know what I mean. It's like knowing
what your piece needs and being a protector of that piece.
Like you said, being the protector and knowing what is
necessary and what's not necessary.

Speaker 1 (24:33):
I think that I want to like just broaden that
out to I think life in general, right, like the
way that we sometimes shift ourselves and we received feedback
from people how we shrink ourselves, and that I think
Caroline Wenga says it if if you're who is not okay,
and you're aware, you don't chase the who. You change
the wear, you change the environment. But it's so easy

(24:54):
for us when we don't feel the when we feel
the pushback or the tension, to be like, oh I
gotta change who I am to fit into this thing.
I was like, no, no, no, Like what you're doing is
actually correct, it just might be the wrong environ.

Speaker 2 (25:05):
Especially being queer. Like, yes, being queer in a lot
of times, in a lot of black spaces where It's
like there was no room for nuance when it comes
to masculinity or femininything. There was no room for it,
you know what I mean. And so like I can
say that like New York, when I moved to New York,
it really did teach me like how to be an
adult and how to love myself, because I think when

(25:28):
I got here, I still had a lot of internalized
homophobia that I still had to like work through it. Yeah,
and then the reality of like getting here and.

Speaker 1 (25:35):
Being like, oh, nobody gives a damn nobody give the fuck.

Speaker 2 (25:38):
Don't nobody care what you do, who you do, who
you are, your name, No, nobody can't.

Speaker 3 (25:45):
It's how you interact with me, yes, you know.

Speaker 2 (25:48):
And I think when I realized that I was allowed
to just be in a different way where I didn't
have to explain myself or change myself for shape shift
depending on the room that I was in, you know
what I mean, it different. It's this city really saved
me in a lot of ways, in a lot of
beautiful ways that I can only imagine the life I
would have had if I never left.

Speaker 1 (26:09):
Yeah, you know, I'm from I'm from here, and I
give it its credit because when I went away, I
think I had I had the the ingredients already from here,
which is really about like everyone's who they are. It's
what I miss about New York is that like people
really the city of particularly is like people really are
who they are, and they're comfortable in it, and they're

(26:30):
confident in it, and they show up in it. And
that's just kind of the the energy of the city.
It really is just like, babe, wear what you want
to wear, be who you want to be, say what
you need to say, like someone will hold you right.
Like kind of New York feels like the original TikTok
right like all it's like niche is It's like New
York had all its pockets for people and it really

(26:51):
it actually teaches you to make it bigger as opposed
to shrinking and trying to hide it. There's other spaces
La included. You feel like you got to kind of
soften the edges little bit. I think New York loves
I don't think New York loves the edge. Yeah, speaking

(27:12):
of you know, queerness, blackness, those intersections and the nuance
of masculinity, religion. Doing a show that contains all of
those things knowing that I think that our community as
a black community has a lot of tension with queerness.
So what is it to like, know that you're about
to do this play that's gonna encompass religion, that's going

(27:36):
to encompass blackness, but it's also the lead character is queer, Like,
what are the Are there any fears that come up
as you're about to address that, as you're about to
put that in front of the community.

Speaker 2 (27:47):
Yeah, I want to say yeah, but there were fears
on like both sides of this pectrum, because it felt
like I was putting my journal on state. It felt
like I was putting like literally like how I see God,
how I see spirituality on stage in a way that
felt so intimate, Like it felt I felt naked every
time I went out on stage. Yes, because you never
know who's going to receive it. Like there was a

(28:10):
point where I really thought I was even when I
did get the draft right and I didn't feel good
about the play where I didn't know if I was
ever going to share it because it was like I
don't know if this is I think I got what
I needed, but I don't know if anybody else needs this.
One of my friends who's another player. She told me,
She was like, well, how dare you say what the
world doesn't need? It's like that's not up to you

(28:31):
to you to do the thing and then the share.
It's not up to you whether how people receive it.

Speaker 1 (28:35):
You know, I think that Donald Glover, it's not you
don't how people eat the food is irrelevant, Yes, their hands,
but you just make ah shut it really is? It

(28:55):
really is that? But I think for me, you know,
putting like whole in front of church and like leading
with that. You know, the image that we chose is
me and Lingerie holding what we we I had them
like photoshopbou out, but I was holding a Bible and
you know, just kind of mixing these things. And immediately
there was there was pushback online like repent saying like

(29:19):
like that, and so there was a fear. We even
had like a meeting and I wonder what y'all did
over at the public We even like had a meeting
about like safety, just not just because of that, but
also like the current climate that we're in doing these
shows and just being like, you know, how do we
make sure that our audience stays safe? How do we

(29:39):
make sure that I stay safe, especially if we're already
starting to feel pushback because we know what the show is,
and we know that the show is not, you know,
disparaging religion or telling you fuck God. It's not doing
any of that. But people can see an image or
see a title and go make it up whatever they
want to be. But I think there was a lot
of fear that came up around that about like will

(29:59):
be will be able to like you said, like I
know that I've gotten what I need out of this,
but will people want this or be able to receive
it or will they see it as blasphemous? And also
is there space for me in my queerness to reclaim
this space?

Speaker 2 (30:17):
Right?

Speaker 1 (30:18):
Like am I allowed to reclaim this space? A space
that's been that's told me that I am a sin,
that my lifestyle is like And I use those in
the show. We do Corinthians and Leviticus and First Book Antimothy,
like I use those Bible verses that my mom had
said to me. And so it's like this world that

(30:40):
has shunned us, like do I have any right to
reclaim it and repurpose it? How did you get to
a place where you're like, oh, I'm I can't tell
the story and I should tell the story.

Speaker 2 (30:52):
It's personally, it was like it was I think what
really helped me was now On, you know, Stevie walk
Away with the director, but also Donald Lawrence, who who
whose music I used to listen to when I was
a kid. I was a teenager and like be having
these like suicidal ideations and like, you know, I don't

(31:13):
belong here, like you know, nobody's ever gonna get me,
nobody's ever gonna fully be able to love me, because
nobody's ever gonna fully know me. You Yeah, And I
remember his music pulling me out of some of those
darkest moments. So and I didn't know him from Adam personally,
you know, other than being a gospel icon. So like
to be able to tell this kind of a story
of liberation in that way and then to be able

(31:34):
to partner with him to create original music, yeah, Like
it's a weird full circle It's a crazy full circle moment.

Speaker 1 (31:44):
How do you feel likeness of that? How do you
hold the bigness in the magic of that or where
do you hold it?

Speaker 2 (31:50):
Definitely in my heart. Definitely in my heart because like
even you know, when you were asking yourself those questions
of like can I do this? Can I do this?
For my self? Every night on stage, you know, and
I feel that, Like I feel like at the end
of every show, I feel like I'm healing the like
twelve thirteen, fourteen year old version of myself. Yeah, like
that did not feel like he belonged that, Like I

(32:12):
basically got a chance to write the gospel play that
I wish I had seen when I was a kid. Fuck, yes,
that's what it feels like. It feels like I got
a chance to write what because I remember watching this
play when I was a kid in one of those
chilling circuit players. It was called I think it was
called Church Mass or something like that, and one of
the characters named their name was Sister Alexis. And they

(32:33):
were I'm assuming non binary. They weren't trans, but like
they was somewhere in there. But of course, you know, yeah, sure,
they were the joke throughout the show. And then at
the end before curtain call, before the end of the play,
they get delivered. They get delivered. They snatched the wig
off all of a sudden, and then the curtain call.

(32:54):
You remember how Tyler Perry used to come out and
talk da da da. Well, this play one of the people,
one of the as where he was like an extra
in the in the play, but he came out and
spoke afterwards and was like, sister Alexis was me talking
about at the end of this play? Uh, there was
a there was a guy who came out and basically

(33:15):
told the audience that he used to be Sister Alexis.
He used to be his character and that God delivered
him because you know, he was dating people who got
in the car accidents and he took that as a
sign of like, I need God's asking me to chase
And so I'm probably like eight years old watching this play.
So I imagine, of course what that does for.

Speaker 1 (33:38):
Right form.

Speaker 2 (33:40):
And so in a lot of ways, I feel like, oh,
happy day. Was it was me writing the play that
I wish that child got to see.

Speaker 1 (33:46):
I think that's so yeah, beautiful mix. I think that
resonates where it's like this space that kind of fucked
the inner child up, child told the child some lies.
How do you heal that? Writing the show and doing
the show has felt really healing, And so I'm wondering
for you. I know, once you got the draft and

(34:06):
once you were ready to put it out, I'm sure
you felt it delivered certain things from you. But then
in doing the run, because now you finished the run,
what have you learned more about yourself?

Speaker 2 (34:19):
That's a great question. What have I learned more about myself?
What did it revealed about you? Finishing that run and
being like I've done the show now, Yeah, because I'm
sure you revealed more about who you are? It did
it revealed one? Physically, It's the hardest thing I've ever
had to do. So I'm like, I'm like, so glad
that I got through a shows because I'm like, it
was no joke, Yeah, no joke. So physically, I was

(34:44):
very proud of myself. But then also I was reminded
of how cathartic theater can be, of how it became
a ritual for myself. Doing eight times a week, became
a ritual to like remind myself of my own worthiness
through the work that I was writing. And there were
moments where, like, you know, things would be going on

(35:06):
in my own life, or I would have these doubts
about you know, my career or anything, and it was
almost like the literally the plot of the play was
combating everything that I was telling myself, so I had
to act that out every night, like when it came
to like looking like there's this whole thing about like
looking looking crazy. Sometimes God tells you to do something

(35:27):
that makes you look crazy to human beings on earth,
you know, and the idea that, yeah, that is the thing,
And sometimes you just got to be obedient. Sometimes you
just got to be obedient to the thing that seems
like it's hard, to the thing that seems like it's impossible.
Like there were moments where I felt like I had
to be obedient in creating this show. And there are
moments where like I would be doing the thing and

(35:48):
be obedient, Okay, I'm gonna do it. I don't feel like
doing it, but I'm gonna do it, and then not
really knowing until like years later, Oh, that's why I
had to be obedient in that moment, because now I'm
seeing it bloom in this moment. But if I didn't
do what I was to do in that moment, this
would have never happened.

Speaker 1 (36:02):
This would have never.

Speaker 2 (36:03):
It really is you got to listen and be open
to listening, because if you're open to like your intuition,
you're open to like listening to what's being given to you.
Then you actually can like do what you need to
do on the earth. But sometimes life can be so noisy, Yes,
things can be so noisy.

Speaker 1 (36:20):
Sometimes quiet yourself. You know.

Speaker 2 (36:22):
I realized the older I've gotten it, I realized that
I have to, like I have to like ridiculously silence
myself in a way where it's like I have to
become a marathon writer. I have become a marathon writer
in a sense of like I wake up, don't turn
the TV on, don't turn on my phone, cut off
all the Wi Fi, so I'm not going down to Google.

Speaker 1 (36:40):
Oh wow, yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:41):
And just going, just going, just going for as long
as I can. And sometimes I'll create a playlist based
around what I'm writing, so when I need a break,
I can take a walk or take a shower and
listen to the to the world. But it's really about
like being intentional about quiet time because I feel like
we have so many distractions at our fingertips. Yes I

(37:01):
keep on saying this, but like I feel like we're
losing so many artists right now because people are like
when they have an emotion and they haven't thought, and
they have a feeling. The first thing they want to
do is make a TikTok video or put it into
one hundred and sixty characters. Yes, nobody sits with the
thing with creates something new anymore creates an existing piece
of art that that piece the easy.

Speaker 1 (37:24):
They get distracted or they're too scared, you know, like, yeah,
this generation needs everything to look perfect to be on
to put it out. And it's like, nah, I think
you have to look like an asshole, have to look
like a fool in order to get to cringe, to
get to the thing. I love when they say your

(37:46):
your skill and your taste don't match, like you have
to keep like your taste might be up here, but
your skill won't be there. You have to keep working
so that your skill match your taste. But that takes time,
and that takes effort, and that takes the willingness to
be vulnerable to share some shit. I mean, if I
look back at things that I've created written, there's some
shit that I would definitely cringe at.

Speaker 2 (38:06):
But say, I couldn't do what I've gotten to.

Speaker 1 (38:08):
If you didn't do that, I hadn't done it, I
wouldn't know to what you said about the show taking
like seven years, you wouldn't know how to carve it
and create it and be able to articulate exactly what
you wanted if you hadn't gone through those seven years
and more of building and creating and writing other things
and building other things that have taught you how to
get to this thing.

Speaker 2 (38:28):
Yeah, it's like literally that that idea of it's okay
for things not to work.

Speaker 1 (38:34):
So yes, it's okay. It's part of the journey, it's
part of the process.

Speaker 2 (38:38):
It's literally just a step to the next thing, whatever
that next thing is. But so many people are afraid
of looking stupid, Like so many people don't want to
go to rehearsal because rehearsals are about being perfect. Rehearsals
about falling flat face you know what I mean? It
really is And I can't tell you every time, no
matter how many things are write anytime I look at
a blank page, like I guess so much, like I

(38:59):
have no idea what because daunting. I feel like I've
never written anything before in my life, Like it's a humbling.

Speaker 1 (39:05):
It always feels like the first time, literally always feel
and I always say that and I really have to,
like I say it and then I really got tested
with it the other day when I was on my
couch weeping from exhaustion, where it's like, I don't know.
It's my favorite place. But when people tell me I
don't know, I'm like congratulations, because if you don't know,
then that means there's a possibility. It's like we get

(39:27):
so much of our worth and our credibility from knowing
and also from being right about a thing, but that
actually blocks you off from so much creativity.

Speaker 2 (39:37):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (39:37):
And so when you're in a space of I don't know,
that means it could be anything. And as overwhelming as
that can be, it's also so beautiful because it means
the possibilities are actually endless for you. So go try
some shit but that But like I said, like the
other day, I was in a place where it's like, oh,
I don't know what's happening with my career, with this,
with that thing, with home, and I was on the

(39:58):
couch weeping, and I had to be like, actually, this
is a beautiful thing. Cry release it. Like the I
don't know.

Speaker 2 (40:04):
Is because it's a form of surrender. Yes, I don't know,
it's a form of likely put my hands up and
just ride yes.

Speaker 1 (40:11):
Because something because I've been here, because I would say
the evidence of your life proves that you get through exactly.
This moment might feel like the biggest ship, but you've
also felt that years prior, years prior, and every time
you get through it. So it's like, don't get overwhelmed
by the one moment as if this is your whole life.

(40:32):
Your whole likely isn't this moment. It's a it's a
beautiful story, and for it to be an interesting story,
there's gonna have to be some.

Speaker 2 (40:39):
It's gonna have to be some hills and valleys.

Speaker 1 (40:42):
Okay, when nobody wants to watch the perfect ship, y'all
watch reality shows because they literally literally m m mm hmmmmm.
How do you define God now?

Speaker 2 (40:59):
Who? I still feel like God is so much bigger
than any definition that I could get, which I've which
I've allowed myself to accept, because I've learned to recognize
God in the spots where i know God does exist,
like even in this conversation, being able to look into
your eyes, being able to see God and you see
God and myself and then the stranger and then the

(41:20):
you know what I mean, and herd flying across the sky,
like knowing that that whatever this being is, this divinity
that created me, that is a reason for my existence,
is the reason why love exists in whatever format exists
in the world and every form it exists in the world. Yeah,

(41:40):
it's it's it just feels so big in the most
beautiful way that I feel like humans we've tried to
capture God in a book in the Bible, We've tried
to capture God, and God it's like that don't work,
you know, And I think that I'm grateful that I

(42:04):
the old folks used to say, you know, I couldn't
believe in a God that I couldn't feel sometimes, you know,
And that's literally how I feel. And I feel like
I got to the point where I was able to
like let go of like the idea of like what
I was at, what was passed down to me and
what was like given to me as a kid, and
realized that I had to discover God for myself. I

(42:25):
had to discover these things for myself. Now what religion
was saying, now, what the church was saying, now, when
Mama was saying, now, what Daddy was saying. I had
to have that own encounter. And once I got to
the point of my life where I had to have
that own encounter and then I was like, oh, oh,
I can't doubt a damn thing.

Speaker 3 (42:40):
No, I can't doubt it.

Speaker 2 (42:42):
Like it's been too. It's me it too, like like
it's it's it's a beautiful thing that I feel like
we get to see a little bit of God in
humanity and then sometimes the world itself can eat it up. Yeah,
it's it's. It's like I think about why kids are
so special, because little kids, it's like they're fresh off
the boat. They're so whatever it is that's over there.

(43:04):
They are fresh off they got to start us right,
And I think we all have that whatever that like
that like internal battery is. I think we all have
that fresh off the boat battery. But I think life
in the world just throws shit and mud and leave
all kinds of things on top of that battery. And
it's our job to keep that vessel open. It's our

(43:25):
job to keep that childlike openness, creativity. How do you
open suckers to keep that keep that open?

Speaker 1 (43:32):
How do you keep that channel open?

Speaker 2 (43:34):
Curiosity? I think my curiosity, that's what we love. That
word here, yes, listen, it keeps it open because I
want to know why did they do that over there?

Speaker 1 (43:43):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (43:43):
Or why is this happening? Or how does that happen?
Or I want to get to meet more people and
see more. But that's why I love New York, because
I feel like I'm constantly surrounded by all kinds of
different cultures and languages and people that allow me to
be curious and make me inspired as an artist. You know, Yes,
I feel like my work allows me to like hold
on to that childlike imagination and it really like requires it.

(44:05):
It requires how how much of more privilege that is
to like I have to work off of something that
requires you to like be in tune with your childhood imagination.

Speaker 1 (44:16):
You have to be. It's what made when I first
started writing on Big Mouth, that made it difficult. I
was what I had to learn how to tap back
into my imagination because you know, especially when you get
to the animated space. But it's in anything, right, Like
writing is like to build stories, but particularly with animation,
it's like, you know, my bosses would always ask like

(44:36):
why is it animated? Right? So like you're having to
like take these ideas and stories and build them out
to make them, you know, what talking poop or whatever
it is or talking home a monster. And I struggled,
and I realized how detached from my imagination I was
because you grow up and you try to be professional
and formal like I'm not I'm too good for that.

(44:58):
It's like, no, you got to get back to silly,
Like your divinity is actually in your silliness. Literally, your
divinity is in your laugh. You know, your divinity is
in your release and in your ability to like spiral
off into different worlds. Like that is because because if
we talk about God as whatever version you wants to
talk about it, but this idea that God created things,

(45:19):
it's like that took an imagination, like whatever that source is,
like had to imagine a bumblebee, had to imagine dust,
had to imagine humans, like, so we have to tap
into that ourselves. And I think curiosity is exactly that.
It's the it's the willingness to not know, and it's
the willingness to allow what you do know to shift

(45:41):
and form and evolve and grow and not be what
you thought it was yesterday and not be upset by that,
be like, oh that's fucking life.

Speaker 2 (45:49):
Yeah, it's a beautiful thing. Like even even when it
came to the play. You know, a lot of the
play was about this idea of like, also I had
to recognize that like my family, my parents were human beings.

Speaker 1 (46:02):
Let's talk about that I had When did you realize that?

Speaker 2 (46:05):
Literally while writing it was like, as kids we hold
we think that their lives began when we were being
raised and everything that they did to us or they
might have said, because it's like the African proverb, like
the ax forgets, but the tree remembers, and like how

(46:26):
we hold on to like all these things that might
have happened, that they might have gotten right, and they
might have gotten wrong, but we hold onto them in
our bodies and they're not thinking, you know what I mean,
Like that's that's not that's not in there, that's not
in their brain. But like I think, because we have
this idea that they're supposed to be perfect or they're
supposed to always say the right thing and they're supposed
to always do the right thing, that it did not

(46:48):
allow for.

Speaker 1 (46:50):
Room for grace.

Speaker 2 (46:51):
Yeah, So like I e would just hold on to it.
And then it took me to the point of like
writing this play and just growing up and realizing like like,
oh snap, everybody had a life before maybe they had trauma.

Speaker 1 (47:06):
The center.

Speaker 3 (47:06):
Yeah, they I've got the center. They were literally and
they're still literally and.

Speaker 2 (47:12):
They're not giving them the grace to grow the same
way that I want to give myself the grace. Like
I even think about being a teenager and being like
those suicidal ideations and the idea that like I was
wanting to end my life based off of how I
was feeling in that moment about myself and based off
of how I perceived they saw me, you know what
I mean, Like it wasn't And then to get to

(47:34):
this point of like being you know, thirty now and
like being like oh snap, Like these people are like
like they're my favorite people on earth. Like they just
their hearts are so big and it's so grown, and
it's so beyond the capacity of what I allowed them
to be in my head as a teenager when I
was soaking in my own bad thoughts, you know, because

(47:55):
it's like literally my parents, my parents were like perfection.
The only thing was like the sexuality conversation was like
the only time where it was like there was yeah,
and so it was something that I just did not
think would ever be possible for them to be able
to grow into the people that they are now. And
it was like that's life, that's like we grow.

Speaker 1 (48:14):
Like everyone'll grow.

Speaker 2 (48:16):
I'm supposed to grow. They're supposed to. Everybody's supposed to grow.

Speaker 1 (48:19):
Yeah, not to quote it, but Lauren Hill, anything that's
not growing is dead. Yes, supposed to. Literally, I think
that the the most liberating thing anyone can do is
taking their parents off a pedestal, whether they are living
or past. But like taking your parents off of a pedestal,
like I know one of the commandments, you know under
that mother and father, and that's all good and well,

(48:40):
but like, truly, you cannot keep them on a pedestal
because it dehumanizes them actually, and you have to see
them as a human. You have to see the inner
child in them. And by the listen, I always say
you have to but you can do whatever you want.
But I say so because I think it allows you
to give yourself more grace. Yeah, because then it's like, oh,
I'm not expecting you to be everything and to be

(49:02):
my everything. It's like you're your own person. You're gonna
have flaws and you're going to fuck up, and that's okay,
you know, and the only thing that I can do
is take care of myself. Like, you know, I have
a mentor who asked me once, like, if you were
your own parent, what advice would you give yourself? And
it was the first time that I'd ever considered, Oh, like,
what does it mean to be my own parent? And

(49:23):
you could even if you have the best relationship with
your with your parents, you can still have that, but
you still nobody knows you, like you know you and
your parents have their own life, right, so like you
have to be able to like be in your corner
no matter what. And I think once you feel confident
in your ability to do that, which might take time
and take trial and error, then your parents get to

(49:45):
be who they are, and I think there gets to
be a softer relationship. Literally, I'm not in relationship with
my mom, but my relationship with her is softer even
in its absence, because I expect nothing from her and
I see her as what she is what we all are,
a wounded child, you know, Like my mom lost her

(50:05):
mom and some shit went down and she was grasping
at religion as a way to I think understand such
a seismic loss I can't imagine. I mean I can,
but to physically lose your mother is a huge thing.
And so I think it's I can see now once
such a girl off the pedestal and sar as a person,

(50:25):
there's more compassion to have there, empathy to have there,
and there's more softness to have there, because like, oh,
I can take care of myself and I can take
care of her heart from a distance as well, and
that is freeing. I want to say this for anyone
who else is experiencing any kind of estrangement, is that

(50:45):
it doesn't take away the heartbreak, right, Like, it's still
allowed to be a heartbreak, but it doesn't have to
be a devastation. The initial might be devastating, but it
doesn't have to be a devastation for the rest of
your life. Right. You get to grow, you get to evolve,
you get to shift where that heartbreak kind of lives
or how you hold it. And in so many ways

(51:06):
I think that like, I honor the heartbreak, I treasure
the heartbreak because the heartbreak has allowed me to be
a softer human in general. Right, the heartbreak has allowed
me to be a more creative person. The heartbreak has
allowed me to write a thing that I get to
be proud of that I wouldn't be able to have
access to if it wasn't for for that exactly, you

(51:29):
know exactly. It's like the storm, right, like I always
I wanted. I remember before I wrote my book, I
wanted to write a book called Through the Storm because
I was so sick of people telling me how they
got through shit but not telling me how they got
through it. It was like, should happen and not look
girl like? I was like no, no, but like, what does
the storm look like? Yeah, like one of the letters

(51:52):
in between love because you just showed me A and
you showed me Z, but you didn't tell me what
happened is here? And that is so important that we
all have our own storms. And it's not about avoiding it,
it's not about escaping it.

Speaker 2 (52:04):
Right.

Speaker 1 (52:05):
You gotta go right.

Speaker 4 (52:08):
Literally, you gotta go through you have because all the
things you will learn, oh the things you will learn,
the tools you will have, and the knowledge that you
will have and like how to because because no storm
is going to be the exact same, it's never going
to be the exact same, but you're going to collect
something from yes.

Speaker 1 (52:26):
To have takeaways from it. Yeah, and then I'll help
you build the thing that you want. Another storm will
come and you remember, like I get through storms. Yeah,
you know how do you get through storms?

Speaker 2 (52:38):
I usually get through storms through with music, yes, yes, music, prayer, yeah. Community, Yeah,
also isolation, allowing myself to like because I used to
be very bad at like sitting with feelings. Yeah, because
I used to want to be busy and want to
be distracted. Because some sometimes things will hurt so bad

(53:00):
that you I didn't know how to engage with them,
like because you know, growing up black in the South,
it wasn't it's not necessary. You don't grow up knowing
how to communicate emotions, knowing.

Speaker 3 (53:10):
How to communicate feelings.

Speaker 1 (53:13):
Yeah, that's that.

Speaker 2 (53:15):
Feelings at all.

Speaker 1 (53:19):
Literally literally, leon an A.

Speaker 3 (53:23):
It's not a discussion.

Speaker 1 (53:24):
It's not a discuss discussion.

Speaker 2 (53:26):
So then I had to learn how to develop that
language for myself. Yeah, I had to learn how to
like develop asking myself how I'm feeling? Why am I
feeling like that? Okay, how do I get to the
truth of the thing, Because so often I feel like
I used to want to be other people's version of
what I wanted them to be. Or what they wanted

(53:47):
me to be in their head. So like I would
want to be the like night and shining armor. I
won't want to be like no. Grew up on the
tyle parent movies. You want to be the dude coming
in to say.

Speaker 3 (53:55):
You know what I mean to say today?

Speaker 1 (53:57):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (53:58):
Flawless? And you show up every day, every day, every
day in a suit and a tie. Everybody else got
on shorts. Then you're like, well, get to the end
of the school year, You're like, well, why am I the
only one in the suit? And then you get resentful
for wearing a suit and everybody's like, then I'm like,
you need to wear no suit, you know, But because
I was raised to wear.

Speaker 3 (54:16):
A suit and I thought I had to wear a
suit at all.

Speaker 2 (54:19):
Times, and then realizing no, actually I can sit with
myself and I could wear whatever I want to wear today.
You know, I could be whoever I want to be.
If I have a thought, if I have a feeling,
how do I get through immediately like that visual of
like going through something, how do you get through to
the other side of it? Because if I want to
live in the truth and all things right, sometimes I
got to have the hard conversation to get over that bridge,

(54:42):
to get to the truth. You know, sometimes the hard
conversation is with yourself. It's like what how do I
Because we also want to be the good poor person
at everybody's story, So it's like, how do you get
over the narrative that you're telling yourself and get to
the truth. Like how her Neighborroum talks about the narratives
we tell ourselves because.

Speaker 3 (55:00):
We're like, we're just we're telling us stories all the time.

Speaker 2 (55:02):
Literally, that's human, that's how our brain works. It's like
we have to tell a story, your storytelling, you know,
But like how do I sit with the ugly? Sometimes yes?
And then also learning that which is what all Happy
Day was really playing with this idea that even though
I'm sitting through the ugly, I still have the option
for happiness. I still it's up to me. It's not

(55:26):
up to the storm, it's not up to what my
life is looking like, or who's in my life or
who's not in my life. It is up to me
to choose my happiness, and it's something that I can
have access to at any point in time, you know,
and learning that that belongs to me, and it's not
a situational or like a like a fair weather friend.

(55:47):
So trying to make sure that like, while I'm going
through the ugly thing, how do I hold on to that?
What does that look like today? Does it look like
going to the movies? Doesn't look like going for a while.
Does it look like listening to music? Does it look
like reading a book? Does it look like like the
things that are that are accessible to us? So we
can claim to like have that little lamp in the
doc to be like, oh no, you still have your happy.
You're gonna be all right.

Speaker 1 (56:08):
You know, it's so important to protect your happy and
to know that happy doesn't have happy has range, right,
Happy doesn't have to be like a turn has a range,
but like to protect it and to savor it, you know,
like you might cry and then you might find a
moment where like yeah, somebody sends you little text as
I love you, or you hear a song or something,

(56:28):
there's something small, but like protect that happy absolutely. Let
me ask you, why do you think there have been
because you know there's oh happy day. There was Saturday Church,
it was whole church and you know black Queer Church
Center shows and we're going on at the same time.
Why do you think that was I mean, other than
like obviously technical schedules, but like this surgeons inside it.

Speaker 2 (56:50):
Was so intentional because I feel like somebody needed liberation. Yeah,
somebody need a liberation somewhere. And I feel like because
especially because they were like everybody's been working on their
things in there own timelines, never knowing that we are
all going to be yeah, never knowing. But I felt
like it was so intentional in some way, shape or form,
because these are conversations that we don't necessarily normally get

(57:10):
to have. We're not We're also like especially in New
York City, Like I remember coming here being a church
kid and like not necessarily being around people who, like
you can have those conversations with a very church or
God or God's from music or like anything like that.
So like I feel like these plays just covered their own,

(57:30):
like their own like playground of like the necessary conversation
for liberation and like did it and like each strategic
Like no play is the same, yes, the same intention
has the same but like they come together for this
collective freedom ticket. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:46):
Yeah, it's really It's been so fun on social media
to see people bouncing around from the different shows and
like what they mean for them, especially just our community
of black were folks being like I saw this and
I saw that. Yeah, I saw this.

Speaker 3 (57:59):
It's like get your life listen, we take people to church.

Speaker 1 (58:04):
Yes, yes, what's your hope for for kind of you know,
it's close to the public, so like, what's your hope
for the next iteration of it?

Speaker 2 (58:12):
I wanted to be seen by as many people as humanly. Yeah,
that's my thing. I just want to I just want
the world to be able to have access to it,
so that little boy who was watching those church plays
could have something that you know, affirms his identity and
affirms his divinity, you know, affirms him in all the
ways that that he never really needed. Because that was

(58:32):
my access to That was my access to theater, you know,
before coming to New York. It was it was those
plays in the Tony Awards. Yeah, that was it. And
then I legally Blonding Musical when it was on TV.

Speaker 1 (58:42):
I remember so absolutely so absolutely guess Laura bell Bundy, right,
Laura bell Bundy, Yeah, that.

Speaker 2 (58:55):
Was so good.

Speaker 1 (58:56):
That was just fun.

Speaker 3 (58:57):
It really it really it's just like time.

Speaker 2 (59:01):
But I want to be able to make theater accessible
in that way, because I feel like I always say this,
I'm like, I don't know why these like theater owners
on Broadway and things like that don't like have deals
with like a Netflix or like Amazon Prime. So that way,
every show that gets into that theater.

Speaker 1 (59:14):
At that PBS, remember PBS is like great performance like
that that that was I lived here so I could
come and see some shows, but other things that I
can get to I was watching on PBS some of
the greatest musicals and.

Speaker 3 (59:28):
Greatest things ship.

Speaker 2 (59:29):
Yeah, because theater is somoral. It like it just exists
in the moment.

Speaker 1 (59:33):
Moment and then it's it's going about I don't have
a revival, but likely you kind of if you're not there. Yeah,
it's the beauty of it. But it's also kind of
the like a sticking point. Yeah, if you're.

Speaker 3 (59:44):
Not there, Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (59:46):
It's kind of like with Sondheim, Like I feel like Sonheim,
we really know Sonheim because he made sure to capture
each and every one of his shows. Yeah. Hey, that
so he filmed Into the Woods film Passion, he filmed,
you know, different overtures. He's filmed these shows that like
allowed it to have posterity so that way people, more fans,

(01:00:06):
generations can find it. And so whenever you do a
production at a school or whatever, it's like you have
a blue.

Speaker 1 (01:00:11):
Poop, have something to look at.

Speaker 2 (01:00:12):
Yeah, you have a blueprint, which is really really dope.
I met Steven Sinhaim. So Steven Sinheim, Oh my god,
Oh you mete?

Speaker 1 (01:00:19):
Oh my god. I was glad. Tell me the story now.

Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
So I was, I was? I was. I was. It
was twenty probably like twenty two, and I was in
the lobby of the public and I was leaving a
rehearsal and I saw him there and he was around
a whole bunch of other old white people. So like,
I had to stand there for five minutes to make
sure that was actually Steven sinha I wasn't.

Speaker 3 (01:00:40):
Like what it like right, So I like stood there,
I was like that Steven.

Speaker 2 (01:00:47):
So I went out to him and I was like,
I was so nervous. I was like, oh my gosh,
Steven like yeah, he was like hi. I was like, Hi,
my name is Jordan and I'm playwright, and I U
you don't know your work has like your work has
made my life. And he looked at me and he
said it is your life. Good.

Speaker 3 (01:01:05):
I said yes, and he said, well, that's a damn
good compliment.

Speaker 1 (01:01:09):
I love that it's your life good.

Speaker 3 (01:01:17):
I love that.

Speaker 1 (01:01:18):
That's incredible. That's incredible.

Speaker 2 (01:01:21):
Yeah, my goodness, man, his work, the way he writes
for women. Oh yeah, just yeah, so good. So I
love theater.

Speaker 1 (01:01:30):
Jordan has been the most incredible conversation. Yeah, shall we
do one last mess?

Speaker 2 (01:01:35):
Let's do it, all right.

Speaker 1 (01:01:36):
I'm going to ask you the questions that we ask
everybody here, and then you can answer however you want.
All right, So, first question is which celebrity or fictional
character could ruin your life? And you'd say thank you?

Speaker 2 (01:01:46):
Oh oh oh, that's a great question. I'm trying to
think of, Like who were my life childhood questions when
I was a kid, Like what characters I used to
be obsessed with? Corborn blue, high school music?

Speaker 1 (01:02:00):
Oh yeah, yeah, it's really Yeah, that's a great answers.

Speaker 3 (01:02:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:09):
What's your most controversial food opinion?

Speaker 2 (01:02:13):
Oh that's a good one. Okay, it's actually recently shifted.

Speaker 1 (01:02:17):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:02:18):
So I used to always hate peas so much so
that I would always say I was allergic to them. Nobody, Yeah,
so nobody would give them to me. And then I
was at a fancy restaurant and they had peace. I
was like, oh peace peace, And I ate the pee.
I was like, this is actually really and I realized
that I just always eating the can pee a different texture. Yeah,

(01:02:40):
they plucked this right off the plane.

Speaker 3 (01:02:45):
Yeah, and I'm the princess love.

Speaker 1 (01:02:51):
Yes, I love a pee, except uh, not in the
maga cheese. I don't know who needs to Oh, thank you.
I need to hear that. Somebody needs to hear that.
Don't put it in the mac and cheese. Love.

Speaker 2 (01:03:01):
You know that's a don't put in your back now,
shou shalt not in cheese.

Speaker 3 (01:03:10):
And that's correct.

Speaker 1 (01:03:11):
You know what else, At one time, there's a restaurant
in La they put asparagus in the mac and cheese.
Assess a sparagus, honey, It is one of the worst
flavor palettes you will ever enjoy. Discuss that's disgusting.

Speaker 2 (01:03:25):
To stop.

Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
People need to stop playing.

Speaker 3 (01:03:31):
Asparagus.

Speaker 1 (01:03:32):
You're putting asparagus in yeah, yeah, and serving it and
charging people for it. Oh, we've had big we have
big problems. Okay, what's your most irrational.

Speaker 2 (01:03:41):
I hate going to dinner with a whole bunch of people,
and everybody wants to with the bill.

Speaker 1 (01:03:45):
Hey, talking about it, that's not a rational talking about it.

Speaker 3 (01:03:48):
I can't please. I ain't, haven't.

Speaker 1 (01:03:53):
I don't even drink.

Speaker 3 (01:03:54):
What are you talking about?

Speaker 2 (01:03:56):
No, I a number of water gets. Wish I would.

Speaker 1 (01:04:01):
Yeah, I've started. I've actually started. If I know a
big group is coming like that and I know I'm
not gonna eat nothing crazy, I will message the host
early and be like, just so you know, I will
be on a separate bill because because it gets awkward
once when the bill drops. But although some people really
don't have problem saying absolutely not, and you should, but
I'm like, I'm gonna let you know ahead of time
so we can avoid that.

Speaker 2 (01:04:22):
I want it to be combatitive, and.

Speaker 1 (01:04:26):
I'm gonna let you know ahead of time. I will
not be splitting the bill.

Speaker 2 (01:04:31):
I will, I will. I will intentionally not eat. Yeah,
intentionally not eat.

Speaker 1 (01:04:38):
I'm here for the company live. Literally, that's what if
I get a chair and I'm gonna say that outside.

Speaker 3 (01:04:45):
No, I had no part.

Speaker 1 (01:04:46):
I had no parts of this. My car does not come.
I hate I hate a big bill split. I can't
stand the only time I'm okay with it. Usually is
like if it's somebody's birthday.

Speaker 3 (01:04:56):
But that's how they gets you, that's when it happened.

Speaker 2 (01:04:58):
It happens at birthdays.

Speaker 1 (01:05:00):
I feel strapped, but I'm saying, if it's a birthday,
is somebody, Yeah, you're right, it's a particular birthday, like
it has to be like like you're my ace, right
and then I'm like, you know, all right, but if
you just invited me just your birthday dinner, I talked
to you every now and then, right right, we're not
the bill because why did you order that extra Why
you didn't need it? You want the bottle of wine?

(01:05:21):
You didn't need it?

Speaker 2 (01:05:22):
And don't let your man be there you Why am
I paying for what.

Speaker 1 (01:05:30):
You pay it? That? Yeah, you'll like y'all gonna scam
me like that?

Speaker 2 (01:05:39):
Right right?

Speaker 1 (01:05:40):
God, hold on, what's the first song you play? If
you hijack the score right now?

Speaker 2 (01:05:45):
Oh? The first song I would play? Probably Badi Hey, yeah,
very nice, very nice.

Speaker 1 (01:05:53):
If you could whisper one piece of advice, one piece
of messy advice, into the world's ear, what would.

Speaker 2 (01:05:58):
It be, one piece of a piece of advice? Don't
nobody know what they're doing? These people don't know what
they're doing. If iron artist baby when you get here,
see these people don't know what it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:13):
Don't matter the baby, don't matter what credibility or what,
how what the blue checks are, no matter how much
money got behind them, the higher I'm like that people
really don't know what they do.

Speaker 2 (01:06:23):
Don't know, they don't know. They just got more money
to do it. That's the problem.

Speaker 1 (01:06:28):
I got more money to not know what they're doing. Literally,
so like just showing act like you know what you're doing.
And the last thing, what do you love most about yourself?

Speaker 2 (01:06:39):
My heart? I feel like I got my heart from
my my granny. She was a very big hearted person
to getting people and you know, fed people and the
door was always unlocked and she just like help court
Like her version of love was like feeding. Yeah, I'm
gonna feed, I'm gonna feed you, I'm gonna talk to you,
I'm gonna pray with you. And I feel like she's

(01:06:59):
just we lost her this earlier this year and it's
just crazy how much I realized, like we were so
much alike, even like I swear if she wasn't a housewived,
she would have been a movie star. Yeah, she like Mississippi.
Like she I found all these like tapes that she
had because she would rent this camp quorder like almost
every weekend and like would film everything she filmed from

(01:07:21):
like the late seventies to like the early nineties. And
I was able to like like digit high some of
her tapes and just watched them and she was just
like talking to the camera, welcome to my TV studio,
and like hosting it like family dinner as if she
was like a news reporter, you know. And I think about, like,
I'm so glad that she got to see, you know,

(01:07:41):
me doing this past show all the things, and she
was just so so proud.

Speaker 1 (01:07:46):
But I definitely feel like I got Yeah, that's beautiful.

Speaker 2 (01:07:50):
Yeah, that's beautiful. It's really dope.

Speaker 1 (01:07:52):
That's the best, baby, Thank you for being here. Was
so good.

Speaker 4 (01:07:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:08:00):
Oh well, baby, you know we are hose here, but
hose with heart. So before we part ways, let me
speak to yours. I love me some Jordan's so deeply.

(01:08:24):
I don't I think I said this movie. I didn't
say this, but you know Jordan. I met because Jordan
was doing a reading of their play eight No More
here in la Uh, and I had the privilege of
playing or reading the part of Peaches, which he originated
on Broadway, and so this was like a this is
I think, like this is obviously pre Broadway, but it

(01:08:46):
was such a transformative experience because the character is just
a character that I don't often get to play that
is so fully realized and black and queer and funny
and gender fluid and also like, you know, some of
the coolest people came to see the show see the reading,
including Lena Waite, who you know, as you know, produced

(01:09:09):
ho Church was also like big sister to me, family
and a mentor. So I just I love Jordan so much.
I think that they are so fucking brilliant. And if
this is what he has accomplished at thirty, we are
in such a treat for the next for the next
ten years of his life, this next decade that he's in.

(01:09:32):
You know, I want all the best for him, but selfishly,
I just can't wait for how his work is going
to impact and continue to impact us as a culture.
It is such a gift to be alive at the
same time as him. Truly, truly, truly so things that
Jordan we talked about that that are my takeaways. One

(01:09:54):
we are not spending the block for no X and NAST,
which is not We just can't. We're just too grown
for it, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, and listen,
there's an exception every rule. Somebody here, I'm sure listening,
spun the block and like given with your ex ever since,
and it's the perfect relationship, and that's beautiful. But nine
times out of ten, please do not spend the block
for your ex. Okay, they're your ex for a reason. Now,

(01:10:15):
you might change and become friends, you might you decide
to become colleagues or whatever it is. But there's a
reason y'all don't fuck no more. There's a reason y'all
aren't in a romantic relationship. You might actually you might
still fuck. There's a reason you're not in a romantic
relationship anymore. Okay, just because the dick is good doesn't
mean that the heart is aligned. Hello, Hello, doesn't mean

(01:10:36):
you gotta put a ring on it? Hello, somebody?

Speaker 3 (01:10:39):
Okay, Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:10:40):
In fact, and if I am going to spend the block,
I will say this, we need to have at least
four seasons between us. Okay. We have to have gone
through winter, spring, summer, and fall before before we spend
the block. Honestly, I would like two eight seasons. I
would like two cycles of four seasons. I don't know
why make it so complicated, but I would like two

(01:11:01):
years before we even talk about it, because we need
time to have distance between us, to know who you are,
when you're not relying on me, who I am not
not relying on you. Then we need time to grow
and evolve and try other things. You might need time
to date some other people, see what you like, what
you don't like, what patterns you're repeating, and then and
then we can come back together and have a conversation perhaps,

(01:11:25):
But before that, no, baby, I don't want it. What else?
To the artists, I want to say, work takes time.
Jordan was saying it took him seven years, right, Oh,
happy day. It took me about five years to get
whole church to where it is. When I was twenty,
I would hear people say it don't take seven years,
ten years, that we were working on this project for
fifteen years.

Speaker 3 (01:11:44):
I'd be like, girl, what.

Speaker 1 (01:11:47):
Oh not me? I have it done in a year.
I have it done in two months. You know what
I'm saying? Like the the for whatever reason, not forever
reason we live in the society we live in. So
speed is valued, but speed does not mean good love.
And also to Jordan's point, it takes that time for
you to be able to write the thing at the

(01:12:07):
level that you're trying to write it, yeah, or create
the thing at the level you want to create it at.
So like who you are when you get the idea,
might not have lived enough life to actually execute it.
You can execute pieces of it, but like you have
to live and work on other things and get through
some things in order to execute it at the level

(01:12:28):
at to have your taste match your skill, that might
take some time, and so lean into it. Enjoy the
fact that it takes time. It's easier said than done,
but it will save you a lot of heartache if
you can surrender to the fact that the journey really

(01:12:49):
is the goal. I'm gonna say it again. I'm gonna
say it every week if I have to, that the
process is what's important and that will lead you to
the product. But don't ignore the process. Us be in
the house, you know, Jordan and I will we be
in the house. Yes, I'm a tourist, so I stay
in the house. But really, what that is is be
conscious about who you keep community with. Sometimes we be

(01:13:10):
so afraid of missing out that fomo where we want
to belong so bad, we want to be validated so
bad that we ignore red flags, We ignore the burgundy flags.
Sometimes it's okay to be in the house. Listen, I'm
not saying stay in the house always. Please go out,
enjoy your life, but be conscious about who you're with,
who you're hanging out with, why you're hanging out with them,

(01:13:32):
what you want from them, what they want from you.
You know, be conscious about the company you keep. You
don't need to be everywhere. Everywhere is not good for you.
The sooner you learn that, the better. I used to
be everywhere, and I was just like, oh, everywhere is
not good for you. Everywhere is not. Sometimes you look
at things and you're like, oh, that looks so cool.
I want to be part of that. I want to
do that. I want to be over there with them,

(01:13:53):
And then you get there. I'm gonna tell you. Get
there and you be like, oh, y'all are not cool
at all. In fact, y'all are fucked up. In fact,
y'all have work to do. What am I doing over here?
I don't change the gears on my ship. I done
steered a different direction to get over here for what, baby,
Sometimes it's okay to be in the house. Here's what

(01:14:14):
I'll say. You want places that make you feel good.
When you leave, you feel good, you feel nourished, you
feel soulful, you feel peaceful. If you leave and you
feel drained, you feel exhausted, you feel anxious, you feel jittery,
you feel black the fuck out, like numb, like foggy,

(01:14:35):
that's probably not your space. Love, it's probably not your space.
But if you feel re energized, reinvigorated, you feel held,
you feel loved, you feel warm and gushy and giggly,
that's probably your space. So just be conscious about who
you keep company with. And finally, I love this. Jordan

(01:14:57):
said that somebody had told him about his work that
he was when he wasn't sure if he's gonna put
it out, How dare you say what the world doesn't need?

Speaker 2 (01:15:06):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (01:15:07):
Sometimes we really hold onto things because we decide for ourselves,
or we project that no one's gonna want this, someone's
gonna care about this, someone's gonna like this. But our
job is to make the thing. Our job is to
create whatever that thing is, to bring whatever that idea
is that's on your chest, whatever that story is it's

(01:15:28):
in your heart, whatever that peace is, that's in your spirit.
Our only job is to honor that and to create it,
whatever that means for you, to bring it forth, to
bring that thing out of you and into the world.
You don't have to worry about if the world will
receive it or hold it or carry or how they

(01:15:49):
will or as Erik Abad do, how they'll eat it.
Just make the food. Ellen Burston says, to hold back
your gifts because they are not yet perfect. Do a
disservice to yourself and to the world that needs them.
You never know if something is on your heart. This
is how I like to think about it. If it's
on your heart, if it's something that you're experiencing, chances

(01:16:12):
are one or at least one other person's experiencing it.
And if the thing that you can create can help
one other person, maybe you did it. You did the thing.
It was worth doing. If the thing you make, if
the thing you build, if the thing that you gift
can help one other person, it was worth it. Don't

(01:16:36):
keep comparing yourself to the you know impact of like millions,
you know those you know we're on Instagram and that
person is this many hundreds of thousands of followers or
this many hundred of thousands of millions of likes, and
you yeah, that's great, that's great, that's great. But at
the end of the day, the human thing on the

(01:16:57):
base level of your humanity, if you can help one
other person, baby, you did it so so make that thing.
Whoever needs to hear that, make that thing. How about you?

Speaker 3 (01:17:11):
What did you learn?

Speaker 1 (01:17:12):
What did your takeaways? You can email me at tell
Me Something Messy at gmail dot com, or if you
want to send me something anonymously, go to something messy
dot com. I love you so much. I'll see you
next week. Thank you so much for listening to Tell
Me Something Messy. If you all enjoyed the show, send
me episode to someone else you might like it. Tell
Me Something Messy was executive produced by Ali Perry, Gabrielle

(01:17:35):
Collins and Yours Truly. Our producer and editor is Vince
de Johnny. The video of tell Me Something Messy is
produced by Des Lombardo and a special thank you to
Natalie Brandam who helps me organize and come up with
some of This mess tell Me Something Messy is a
production of iHeart Podcasts on the Outspoken Network. For more podcasts,
listen on the free iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

(01:17:56):
you get your podcasts.

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Brandon Kyle Goodman

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