You Can Grieve Correct Decisions Too w/ Dr. Raquel Martin

Clinical psychologist and Black Mental Health advocate Dr. Raquel Martin is back for a one-on-one conversation with Brandon in a special episode of Ask Messy Mom & Dr. Martin. After a game of Smash or Pass, they dive into listener questions, including topics like judging ones self on sexual prowess or being trapped in an emotionally abusive relationship. 

Follow Brandon on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/brandonkylegoodman Join the C'Heauxmunity at https://brandonkylegoodman.substack.com/ Submit your own messy story or question at [e-mail] or call ‪[phone]

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Smash your past sixty nine. To me, it's it's like architecture, daijah.
Some things are like really pretty to look at and
I want to, you know, take a torah. But it's
not like practical, you know, it's like that's not practical. Baby.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
Certain genders they just don't multitask. They're not a multi y'all.
So like I guess the men, you know the same
way we think like women could do at all like
this too.

Speaker 1 (00:28):
You know what, this is a safe space to talk
about relationships, love and sex. Now let me tell you
something messy. This will be short. And like I said,
some of y'all, like a lot of my message stories
for some reason, happened in the you know, in the
locker room. And it's not even like I'm not even
like there's something sexual happening. It's just like I'm around
men being men, and I have thoughts, I have feelings,

(00:53):
I have opinions. Please don't leave your come in the shower.
That's what I would like to say. I was in
the shop, I took a shower. I walked to the
shower and there's there's a little little seat. It's the
handicapped shower. Don't worry. There was nobody, you know, who
needed it. It was the only shower available. So I
went in. So that handicatted seat was down, you know,

(01:14):
and you could use it if there's no one that
needs it. Like, you know, you don't have to be
disabled to use that shower. It's a bigger shower. So
I got up in there and the seat that's there
was down, and baby, when I know sticky ikey when
I see it, I know sticky iky when I see it,
I knew it was not conditioner. I knew it was

(01:35):
not a cleanser. It just has a different consistency. And
I looked and I said, that's come, that's come. And hey, baby,
I don't mind that you masturbate in the shower. I
actually really don't mind that you masturbate in the shower.
That's okay, Like, you know, it's a shower. It's a
great time. And there's a drain. You know, whatever comes
out will go down the drain, but you have to

(01:57):
sometimes help it get to the drain. This person did
not help it. They came on that seat and just
left it there. And that's disrespectful and rue because now
what am I supposed to because you know I'm not touching,
you'll come. What the fuck? So who needs to? Oh
my goodness, somebody was telling me, speaking of masturbating. Someone
was telling me who I know works at the gym
that I go to, was telling me that they had

(02:18):
to ask one of the ladies to leave because she
was masturbating in the like not even in the shower
or in a stall. She was on FaceTime masturbating in
like the in like the the locker area where people
are just like getting changed and shit. She on the
face time and they asked her. They were like, hey, love,

(02:39):
can you not do that here? And she was like,
oh okay, And then I guess she then I think
she went into the bathroom, but like she didn't have
no headphones. She just she's freely masturbating, and it was loud.
She making moans. The person on the phone is also
making whatnot. So this thing it's not even just like

(03:02):
I'm masturbating, like I'm also like I'm having phone sex.
And so they had to ask her to to like
leave the gym and lose her membership. But I was like,
that's wild, how bold. Listen again, I understand y'all, y'all
are turned on by being in the locker room. It's
where you want to masturbate. That's okay, but there has
to be masturbation etiquette. We you know what I'm saying.

(03:23):
You gotta have masturbation etiquette, and so please do not
masturbate in the common spaces where people are getting changed.
If you want to do it in the steam room,
make sure that everyone in the steamer room is down
for it. Otherwise, do that shit in the shower. If
you do it in the shower, make sure that any
fluids that are coming out go down that drain. And
that is your guide to masturbating in a locker room.

(03:46):
By the way, welcome to the show. That's tell me
something messy. I'm your host, Breddickku Goodvin, but you could
call me Detective Sticky Icky because I know what I
know when it's come I'm telling you right now. I
know when it's come versus conditioner. You know I know
because because I doubble. Okay, let's get this. Jill started, baby,
you know what that means. It's time for a guest. Now,

(04:07):
while they get situated, we'll get our messy. Key Key
started with a hoe manifest sto repeat after me aloud
or in your head. Grant me the serendity to unpack
my shame, the courage to heal, the wisdom to know
that sex is not about penetration, the audacity to advocate
for my pleasure and boundaries, the strength and not call
my ex that fuck boy, fuck girl, or fuck they.

(04:30):
For it is better to masturbabe by myself in peace
than to let someone play in my motherfucking face. Let
the hommunity say holujah. I am so excited to have
doctor Roquel Martin on the show. Doctor Rokel Martin is
a dynamic force in black mental health and liberation psychology.
As a clinical psychologist, professor, scientist, and podcast host, Doctor

(04:53):
Martin brings to the table a unique blend of critical education,
offering fresh perspectives that challenge traditional norm and encourage mind evolution.
So everyone she engages with feels truly seen, heard, and
empowered to make a difference. I know that's fucking right, y'all,
Please help me. Welcome Doctor Roquel. Hi, Doctor Raquel. Hello,

(05:15):
I'm so you know I have to tell you that
every time I see your face, I feel like, uh,
I like just such to radiate. I'm like, Doctor Raquel,
like even on the internet. When I see you, I know.

Speaker 2 (05:25):
I feel the same way when I see your face.

Speaker 1 (05:33):
Change birthday, I'm.

Speaker 2 (05:35):
Every thirst trap.

Speaker 1 (05:36):
I'd be like, yes, listen, I'm gonna get people. I'm
gonna get of people what they want, which is the
thirst traps.

Speaker 2 (05:42):
I love seeing them a baby, always, a little shaved
better always.

Speaker 1 (05:48):
I love it you yes to to. I can always
hear my mother in the background. Don't not them ashy hands, baby,
you gotta.

Speaker 2 (05:57):
Anytime, anytime I go on stage, I hear my mom say,
please put lotion on your hands and speak slowly.

Speaker 1 (06:03):
Yes, yes, oh my god, yes, loosho on your hands,
on your elbows, your knees. Make sure your face is
greased up. Girl, please it slow down. What are you
trying to say, child? Yes, that is tea. Oh okay wait.
We don't have a good kiki. But before we get

(06:23):
into it, let me give you our messy mandates, which
are things get to be unprocessed. Any thoughts or opinions
share have the right to change, shift or evolve today, tomorrow,
ten years from now. And if during the kiki something
feels too personal or unintentionally offends, we use the save
word football, which gives us a moment to pause and
address and pivot accordingly. Sound good, beautiful, Let's start with
a lube breaker. It's a game of smasher pass you down,

(06:46):
I'm down, okay, smash your pass? Foot play?

Speaker 2 (06:49):
Okay, So what counts as foot play? Because to me,
I'm just are we talking about like using the foot
like all up on the stuff or sure, like I
just get a massage and you like suck on my top,
Like what are we saying?

Speaker 1 (06:59):
It could be? So it could be, you know, it
could be sucking on that toe. It could be using
the foot to rub on that thing. It could be
you know, rubbing your nipples with their foot. So whatever,
whatever it is for you, you might have a line,
you might have guardrails around it. But whatever you what's
your divine version of foot play are you in?

Speaker 2 (07:14):
I don't know. I think it's very basic in terms
of like it's a warm up of like, oh, you know,
let me massage your your foot and then I'm gonna
go all the way, you know. So I maybe just
see it as a precursor.

Speaker 1 (07:24):
Okay, a precursor okay, So so it's it might be
a smash, a smash and a past. It's like a
little high. Okay, okay, work. I love a foot play.
I've learned. I've talked about it enough times the show
might at this point, I should make the show about
foot play, because I've learned that I really do love
a little I like the foot of my mouth. I
like it on my my nipples. I like it on

(07:45):
my my We call her birth you know what?

Speaker 2 (07:50):
And you know what, I'm assuming everybody know because like Bertha,
before birth, you always say big birth, like I I
know why it's birth though, because I always.

Speaker 1 (07:58):
Forgot about that. I forgot about that. Yeah that's right.

Speaker 2 (08:01):
Yes. I used to call my laptop, which was a PC,
it was huge.

Speaker 1 (08:04):
Yeah, big birth, birtha big birthday.

Speaker 2 (08:07):
Never just birtha's big birtha. Everybody know why it is
Bertha right.

Speaker 1 (08:14):
Now they do? Oh my goodness, now they do. I'm
just gonna let birthday. I was trying to so I
guess it is because I can't I set the name randomly.
But I was like, I remember mom talking about like Bertha,
and yes, Bertha was usually like a curvaceous, fabulous, gorgeous. Yeah,
birtha got booty, birtha got ass. Yeah, so big birth.

(08:37):
It's all so well okay, so b B big birthday. Yes, absolutely, okay,
smash your past sixty nine.

Speaker 2 (08:48):
Oh, I think I would smash that. But you know
what I would say. The whole thing with that is
like I like to just focus on one thing. I'm
not a big multitasker.

Speaker 1 (08:57):
I don't yeah, one thing at a time like multi tasker.
So fine, it's another mass.

Speaker 2 (09:08):
It's another mass because I can also understand if somebody
else prefers it more than me. People, Yeah, because certain
you know, certain genders, they just don't multitask they they're
not a multi So like you know, the same way
like women can do it all, like this too. You
don't want thing like I'm so genuine multitaskers, like women

(09:31):
could do it all.

Speaker 1 (09:32):
But like you said, but not this too. I can't just.

Speaker 2 (09:38):
Focus on like getting or giving. I gotta focus on
both and then just be honest, like breathing through your
nose and like.

Speaker 1 (09:44):
Yeah, while you you can't. I feel like I can't
enjoy the pleasure of what I'm receiving while I'm also
giving because I'm trying to breathe the technique or not,
you know what I'm saying, What you want, what you
want this to be.

Speaker 2 (09:57):
Do you want me to get so many you know,
just get so just into the sauce that I forget,
not to clench my teeth.

Speaker 1 (10:02):
That's what do we want? What do we want? What
do we really want? Let's narrow this down, break it down,
if to.

Speaker 2 (10:11):
Me, just for safety for you.

Speaker 1 (10:13):
Yeah, yeah, let's sixty nine. There's a lot of sensitive
bits out right now. And yeah, you're right, I think
sixty nine is. To me, it's it's like architecture, just
some things are like really pretty to look at, and
I want to, you know, I take a tour up,
but it's not like practical, you know, it's like that's
not practical. Yeah, yeah, I'm with you, Okay, smash your past.

(10:39):
Hair pulling.

Speaker 2 (10:40):
Oh I'm yeah, hair pulling yeah, a little.

Speaker 1 (10:44):
Oh yeah yeah jo joke, yeah. Something.

Speaker 2 (10:48):
I always in control. But it's blessed to be with somewhere.
I gotta control.

Speaker 1 (10:54):
It's the thing I like the submission because I'm always
in charge. I'm a fan. I'm a fan. I'm a fan.
I'm a fan.

Speaker 2 (11:00):
I'm a fan.

Speaker 1 (11:01):
Tell me what to do now, absolutely now now, now
that's right. Once we cross that line out of the bedroom,
I'm in charge, Love, Yes, you know.

Speaker 2 (11:11):
Different dynamics here. But what where?

Speaker 1 (11:15):
No problem, no problem, no wrong problem. But once we
leave this room, Love, my captain has back on. My
certain heart is back on. Yes, okay, finally smash her
past curly fries. Random, but let's talk.

Speaker 2 (11:28):
About it, curly fries. I could do curly fries, but
there has to be a good ranch available.

Speaker 1 (11:32):
Oh, thank you so much for saying that, because that
is important I wanted to.

Speaker 2 (11:35):
I also want the season curly fries.

Speaker 1 (11:38):
No no, no, no, no no no. Also, I feel like
I like a curly fried when it's seasoned. I don't
need my regular fried season, but I like a season. Yeah.
Sometimes it's just potatoes and a curl and I don't confused. Dragon,
you're right. Oh yeah, you're right, you're right. Ain't nothing else.
He's there and that's you know. In La they love

(11:59):
a green juice and they things to be un seasoned.

Speaker 2 (12:01):
And I wrote you every time I every time I
go to l A, I'm getting avocado with everything.

Speaker 1 (12:05):
It's we are avocado for days here. I mean, yes,
I'm an avocado dreams. Absolutely, we don't know what bread is.
Everything's in the lettuce wrap. It's crazy. You gotta you
gotta request the bread.

Speaker 2 (12:19):
On the counter. And I asked for like a towel,
uh huh, a paper towel, and the guy kept bringing
me these cloth nappiins And I said, you don't even
you don't even know. I said, that's okay, that's okay,
that's okay.

Speaker 1 (12:32):
You want a paper towel. I know, I want to
bounce to you. Give me a nice quicker picker up
or you know what I'm saying. I'm just like you said,
not the cloth. Thank you love, thank you love. They
used to for a second when I first moved to
l A. They were very into the and you know,
I respect it because climate change is real. But they
would give me the paper, the paper straws. And I said,
but I love, I love you your paper straw, but

(12:53):
I understand your paper straw, but please don't give me
a paper straw.

Speaker 2 (12:56):
Drink off of the you know, baby, Yeah, I don't.

Speaker 1 (13:00):
Need it, Baby, I don't need it. If you don't
have the plastic straw, I don't need a straw. I
don't the paper. I don't need that eight by eleven
getting you know, because you.

Speaker 2 (13:08):
Gotta drink it quick because you gotta you.

Speaker 1 (13:11):
Gotta drink it fast. It's rock. It's got the scam.
It's this scam that they want you to drink faster
so you buy more. That's why the paper that's a scam.

Speaker 2 (13:19):
That's actually I would I would see it. And you
know what they might be in Cahoops with the ants
acid company.

Speaker 1 (13:24):
Because here's talk about it. Talk about it here, go ahead,
talk about it.

Speaker 2 (13:28):
Let's say the random time I have a soldo, I
gotta go this down and now and then and behold,
there's a wall grease right next.

Speaker 1 (13:34):
Door, right next door, CBS for the for your gas X.
They're all working together. That capitalist unearthed the I think
we did. I love it, Doctor Martin, you won the game.
You with my unconditional love. Patriots. If you have this
is the best most fun game of play, Patrios. If

(13:57):
y'all have game submission or prompt you can email me
tell me some thing messy at gmail dot com. Speaking
of which, doctor Rakel, can you tell me something messy?

Speaker 2 (14:04):
Okay? So the internet is split about this, So y'all
tell me if I was wrong?

Speaker 1 (14:07):
Okay, beautiful, I'm right now.

Speaker 2 (14:15):
Okay, just a reminder, Yes, I am a psychologist, but
I am not. I'm not your psychologist. So unless you
receive the invoice from me, we are not in session.
I am still a human being. Yeah, you go to
the Southwest Airlines? Not because now now, granted I've been
told my first mistake was flying Southwest Airlines?

Speaker 1 (14:32):
Really Southwest be I mean south must be killing it
from LA to San Francisco.

Speaker 2 (14:36):
It's a toxic relationship that I keep trying to spin
the block on. And okay, this is also on me.
I'm gonna acknowledge that. So say you know they do
ABC say you are number A twenty two, you already
standing in line and then got your headphones on, you
ready to board. Somebody comes up chooses you out of
all the other people in this little section, and what

(14:57):
do you think the difference is between you and the
other people in the section?

Speaker 1 (15:00):
Unfortunately? Is that Melanin?

Speaker 2 (15:02):
Is that Melonis? So they decided to choose you specifically,
And you know they told you specifically because ain't ask
for nobody else. I got my headphones on, But that
don't mean they low.

Speaker 1 (15:10):
You know, that's see something sometimes that anything's on in advice,
I still hear you'll like, we always we're always listening.

Speaker 2 (15:20):
We're always listening.

Speaker 1 (15:21):
Don't try to New York's always listening.

Speaker 2 (15:22):
Yeah, and makes a big show hands and everything. What
number are you a twenty two? I'm a twenty three? No,
they said I'm a twenty one. And you're like okay,
and they say, well and just look and you say,
I'm not moving and put your headphones back on and

(15:44):
go back to what you're doing.

Speaker 1 (15:46):
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:47):
Then this time, instead of waving at you like a nut,
they tap you.

Speaker 1 (15:50):
Oh lord, not the physical.

Speaker 2 (15:53):
Not the physical touch. You know, you have to move.
And then you say, with a little maniacal smile, move me. Then.
Now here's the thing.

Speaker 1 (16:12):
People think that.

Speaker 2 (16:13):
You shouldn't mess with people with a serious face. But me,
as a psychologist, let me tell y'all something.

Speaker 1 (16:17):
Yeah, it's a smile.

Speaker 2 (16:18):
When someone smiles at you. Yeah, yeah, Doctor Martin says,
just know whether or not you you got hands. I
don't people with serious faces. You know, I have serious
faces all the time. But I'm a good you know,
I'll look like this and as soon as someone says hig,
I'll be like hey, but no, just looking and then

(16:42):
turn you back around. Now, mind you once again, you
are one spot behind them. You were also there before them,
but they decided to tell you that you have to move.
Who's wrong? Who's wrong in that scenario?

Speaker 1 (16:54):
Well, here's what I'll say. Uh, in the if we're
playing by like school politics, like maybe twenty one should
be before twenty two. But it's literally a spot and
you're in the thrain too.

Speaker 2 (17:06):
Oh it's arranged tive.

Speaker 1 (17:08):
Oh yeah, I feel like calm down. We're also we're
in group A, like we're gonna go first A.

Speaker 2 (17:14):
You're it's not like I'm supposed to be twenty seven
and I know yeah, yeah, I was one spot before you.
It's that it's the why did you feel the need
to just ask me? Yes, we don't just touch people.

Speaker 1 (17:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:27):
And the you have to move?

Speaker 1 (17:29):
Yeah, that that that entitledness. I like, no, I'd be like,
oh this is I'd be like, you're a twenty two. Great,
so we're like we're here, we're in the we're in
the same zone. I would not be pressed about you moving,
nor would I tell you you have to move because
you have.

Speaker 2 (17:44):
To move and you're one spot ahead of me. And
first of all, honey, you late because I was already here,
So it's not that's another thing. I was like, you
just got here up a standing up for twelve minutes.
I don't listen to three songs.

Speaker 1 (17:54):
You're like, I know, I know how long I've been
here because I've been listening to the part of the album.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah, and you just come up you have to move?

Speaker 1 (18:00):
No, no, no, I think it's and I think also
like I feel like if if that person would have
come to you with a little more kindness in their tone,
no problem, but like the fact that they were like,
you got them move.

Speaker 2 (18:12):
They didn't even finish their sins the first one. They
just said, well, oh that see I couldn't do that. Well,
well what I don't what love?

Speaker 1 (18:19):
I don't remind I'm not. Its like you tell me
what finishing it?

Speaker 2 (18:22):
No, like would you mind or a kindness? No, it
was very much stone face.

Speaker 1 (18:25):
Well. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I don't
play that.

Speaker 2 (18:28):
Well.

Speaker 1 (18:28):
Well is not what we're traveling. No, the well's empty, honey,
no water, and we're traveling.

Speaker 2 (18:33):
Airports are disgusting. I also have flight anxiety, which no
one would get with the amount of times that I fly,
But I actually have flight anxiety.

Speaker 1 (18:39):
Had I did too. I pass out as soon as
that engine revs. My body shuts down. I don't I
never remember to take off, and I'm just sitting here.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
So the internet is split like, well, why didn't you move? Well,
I guess I could have if the person was being kind,
but also why does it matter? Why does it? It's
one spot? It doesn't and you know what people will
be like if it didn't matter, why didn't you move?
I'm be honest with you. I didn't like.

Speaker 1 (19:02):
I did, Okay, I didn't like her, and I think
that's fair, doctor right, And you're you are my people?
That that that is an answer that many of my
what's your sign? That's one of my arias friends were
given said, I'm saying Jerry's rising. This is why I
understand you. Okay, yes, you are my friends. I didn't
like I didn't like the way to ask.

Speaker 2 (19:22):
At the end of the day, you know what, that
that colors a lot of situations. I didn't like I didn't.

Speaker 1 (19:26):
Like her, and so I moved. That's the thing. If
I don't like your energy, you're not getting nothing from me.
I will be the kindest, warmest, but if your energy
comes a little disrespectful. You're not getting anything with dust
from me, nothing.

Speaker 2 (19:38):
So yeah, so yeah, maybe that was messy because so
many people are like, well, you were you were you
were a psychologist. Oh, I didn't know I was their psychologists.
I think I would recognize my patient. I think I
would recognize my patient.

Speaker 1 (19:49):
I'm a person in this moment. I'm not I'm a human.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
And that's how people get messed up because they'd be like, oh,
I would expect you to have better self control? Girl,
did you did you hear me talk about this from
a jail sound?

Speaker 1 (19:59):
I didn't swim any arms. What are you talking about?

Speaker 2 (20:01):
I didn't do it.

Speaker 1 (20:01):
I didn't touch anyone either.

Speaker 2 (20:03):
I didn't raise my voice. That's nothing, didn't raise my voice,
touched myself, I smiled, And for everyone listening, it is
never first of all, you don't touch anyone but out there.
But when it comes to.

Speaker 1 (20:15):
Black, please don't touch us.

Speaker 2 (20:17):
Don't do it because I issued way more restraint than
somebody else.

Speaker 1 (20:21):
Absolutely, absolute, absolutely, I don't. Yeah that that like audacity,
the audacity to just like touch and grab and reach.
I'm always like no, no, no, no, no. It's very similar
to when people like reach, which this school, but like
it's the reaching for the hair, which actually happened to
be a couple weeks ago. I was like, wait, what
year is it? Why are you reaching from white person?

(20:41):
Why are you reaching from my hair?

Speaker 2 (20:43):
Because first of all, now I got to wash my hair.
When I sit at the airport, I wipe off the
chair so that my curls can.

Speaker 1 (20:50):
Can have, you know, a beautiful, lovely place to lie,
a clean place.

Speaker 2 (20:54):
Washes their hands as long as they should.

Speaker 1 (20:56):
You just that's real, that's real. That's real. We're a
little bit of a German poe. That's real. Yes, that's real. Yeah. Yeah. Also,
and you don't And that's the thing. We don't know
what people do in their home. You know what I'm saying.
I don't know how well you clean your ass. Okay,
I don't know you like that. And a lot of
y'all don't like to clean your ass, so you know,
so I am going to take pre cautions here.

Speaker 2 (21:19):
Enough. People don't get in the fold.

Speaker 1 (21:21):
They don't, they don't, they really don't. They. I always
talk about this because I go to the gym and
I shower there and these men be going in and out,
and I'm like, wait, how did you finish? How did
you fower?

Speaker 2 (21:32):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (21:33):
Did you did you get underneath? What? How that was
such a fast shower?

Speaker 2 (21:36):
Love?

Speaker 1 (21:37):
Or when they or I'll see them, they'll work out
the sweaty they shower and they'll put on the same
sweaty clothes and leave. I'm like, I saw you working
out for the last hour in that outfit, and I
saw you in the shower, and now you're when I'm
saying close love, don't touch me, don't touch me. I'm
with you, I'm with you.

Speaker 2 (21:58):
No, I'm with you. But yeah, at the end of
the day, I like her.

Speaker 1 (22:02):
That's real. And you know what, as far as I'm
concerned on this show, you were right there you go.
I like our.

Speaker 2 (22:09):
Periodidest person alone.

Speaker 1 (22:12):
If I don't, that's real. If I don't like you,
if you come to me wrong, that's real. Thank you
for that story. Shall we do some messy mail? Yes, okay,
it's a very special ask messy mom and doctor Roth
cal So here we go. The first one says, both
of my exes reached out and I don't know what
to do. I am still in love with both of them.

(22:33):
I feel like you get this question. Do you have
this question a lot where people are like, I'm still
trying to spin the block and and I don't know
where I should put my attention. What is what did
usually your answer to that?

Speaker 2 (22:47):
Okay, so here's my thing. Yes, I am, like, I'm
an emotional person. It's just one of my strengths and stuff,
very much so. But in this scenario, we're talking about
two different two people like they I love them both. Yes,
totally understand that you love both of them. However, do
they both serve you in similar ways? Because like, love

(23:08):
is in no way enough to manage your relationship. And
you can love someone who doesn't like feed your soul,
or someone who is wholeheartedly bad for you, or someone
who makes you second guess yourself, someone who's emotionally abusive.
So I don't think I don't think love with you enough.
Like the fact that you're still in love with both
of them doesn't mean that either one of them are
best for you for your future. So I would think about, like,

(23:32):
I'm in love with them, but kind of like, is
the best version of me in love with them? Am
I my best version of myself when I'm with either person? Like,
what version of me is in love with them is
a nostalgia you know, two of the biggest things that
keep people in relationship nostalgia and loneliness. Right, So, like,
is it also like my past self that I've come
you know, I've healed and you know, but that person

(23:55):
that loved them before, like, I'm not them, I've come farther.
So like, which part of me is in love with them?
And also like thinking about like you, what do you
expect to come from a relationship with either one of them?
You could totally be in love with both of them,
but both of them may not be best for your
best self, right, Like, and do I just miss the
idea of them? Because there's also like nostalgia is such
a powerful thing because you know, when we get older,

(24:17):
we kind of get more realistic, which sucks. You know,
we also got to have some delusions, so you also
may just miss the like reckless abandon you had with
them when you were younger. It's why homecoming is such
a salient time and going back to your old campuses.
It's like it's not only do I miss my time
with them, but I miss like who I was before
the world destroyed me.

Speaker 1 (24:37):
I missed that version of myself yeah, yeah, but it
wasn't necessarily the best version of me. It was just
a different era of my life, Yes, a different era.

Speaker 2 (24:46):
Yeah, you know, I used to man living in my
best life. Now I'm all like reasonable now, But the
number of times I didn't just got into a car
with somebody just because they could give me a ride
to a party, yeah, now when I saw them drink it.

Speaker 1 (24:59):
Yeah, yes, yes, that version of yourself was always clear,
very true. But when you look back at it, you
look back with like you remember the good parts of
the nostalgia. Yeah, like.

Speaker 2 (25:16):
That was back when people used to dance.

Speaker 1 (25:18):
Oh my god, let's talk about it.

Speaker 2 (25:21):
My hair out still got to church on time.

Speaker 1 (25:25):
Amen.

Speaker 2 (25:27):
One of my roommates always says, you can't go out
for the devil and not wake out for the Lord.
And we're always there on Sunday, Like that's what she
always said, always said, we cannot go out for the
devil and not wake up for the Lord. And yes, ma'am,
that's why we went out to the club. We had

(25:47):
our church clothes like hung up to because.

Speaker 1 (25:50):
For the Lord. And y'all were there at church at
eleven or going to the late servance because yes.

Speaker 2 (25:54):
Eleven was the late service. Sweet.

Speaker 1 (25:58):
I know North, I feel like we're not North, but
like New York. I feel like there are some like
six pm six shows. My god, sixperm services. Yeah god,
I just could never. I would go out on Saturdays
and I just could never. When I was in college,
the eleven am, which is so early for my and because.

Speaker 2 (26:18):
I also I got eleven am is midday.

Speaker 1 (26:21):
Oh that's so early for me. I know, there's a
nine am, and then there's the eleven am. There's eight.
Oh you know, I could just I could never. I
can never make it. I was also drinking Chea vodka
at the time, and you know then ten dollars bottles.
Let me shout out to Georgie Vodka, Amsterdam, that plastic
bottle of vodka. You're not making an eleven AM service.

Speaker 2 (26:43):
Love ninety nine berries, Rossy, doctor Martin got dad.

Speaker 1 (26:58):
It was back for the question, which was nostalgia and
loneliness will really fuck you up? Us going down memory,
us going down nostalgia about the bad alcohol eas drink. Yeah,
it will that that makes total sense, like thinking about
what who is going to bring out the best version
of you? And will either of these ex'es do that,

(27:19):
and are you actually craving nostalgia and loneliness or is
this something that has real merit here? Because to your point,
I always love isn't enough to make the relationship work.
I remember when I finally understood the Tina Turner song
What's Love Got to do with It? I was like,
oh right, yeah, love is beautiful, it's wonderful, But that
does not make a relationship.

Speaker 2 (27:40):
No, it doesn't. We've all been in love with toxic people.
You're great, You're great. You got a theme song, It's
not Gonna Cry by'm Mary j BLI and bust the
window off your car Jess.

Speaker 1 (27:54):
Absolutely, those are our anthems.

Speaker 2 (27:56):
Yeah, but like you know, it doesn't mean the that's
the person you want to be with. And even you
may come to the fact of like neither one of
them or what's best for you. And sometimes people think,
because oh I love them, that means I'm meant to
be with them. It doesn't mean that you could love
them both. And then after doing this little exercise thinking
about what version of myself is best with them, neither one.
They both bring out different inklings of me that aren't

(28:17):
the best. I think partners are meant to help you evolve.
Neither one of them would contribute to my evolution. I
love them, but I also have to deal with like
not being with them. You can grieve right decisions too.
You can have a decision that was the best for
you and still grieve the fact that you had to
make that right. But it's also not your job to
create like a relationship with a person who you wholeheartedly
know it's not there, right, because don't waste your present

(28:39):
on a future that may never come. Don't fall in
love with potential because they may never be that person.
The only person who you can control, like have agency over,
is you. So you can also grieve like, man, I
love them, both, both of them are not what's best
for me. Grieve that. That's okay. You can grieve accurate
decisions too, there's nothing wrong with that.

Speaker 1 (28:56):
Bars, nothing to add. Bars. Fucking write the transcript, print it,
put it everywhere. Oh my god, you're writing a book, right.

Speaker 2 (29:08):
I am lovely.

Speaker 1 (29:10):
You can't wait to support it. This one says it's
hard one going through it and realize. I don't love
the question, but I love that we're going to talk
about it because I feel like I heard this a
lot which is going through it and realize my whole
circle is toxic. I feel lonely. How do you find
new friends in your thirties? Do you have any thoughts

(29:30):
about that toxic? Yeah? I mean so, like this is
so I'll talk about this, which is that I have
talked my circle I'm very very proud of and I
have a great community. But I have talked to people
in doing this show and in other spaces where they
feel like they don't trust their friend group or that

(29:51):
they're in a toxic friend group. And so it sounds
like this person realized that they were in a toxic
friend group and has you know, left them all behind,
but now is in the need of making new friends.
And I think that comes from, like, you know, especially
if the new friends in your thirties, like in your twenties,
I think there can be so much pursuit of acceptance

(30:12):
and belonging in validation that you don't actually consider the
quality of the relationship and then you look up and
you're like, oh, not of these people are really for me,
Like we don't.

Speaker 2 (30:21):
Have feared values. Like the vibes were immaculate, but like
I'm in a different phase in my life, and I'm
realizing that, like the values were not.

Speaker 1 (30:29):
Yeah, like we were cute going out together. We looked
good together, but like in terms of people I can
lean on and be supported by, this might not be
the group. And so I guess, like if you rid
yourself of those people and now you're like, well, now
I'm kind of solo and I'm in my thirties, everyone
has a friend group, how do you go about, you know,
building or rebuilding?

Speaker 2 (30:49):
So this is something that comes up a lot. I'm
gonna be honest with you. There's so much emphasis on
finding your romantic partner, but clinically, I find that more
people are looking for their friends.

Speaker 1 (30:58):
Uh huh truly.

Speaker 2 (30:59):
Yeah, Like I see all these date nights, like these
dating shows and stuff like that, and I was like, man,
I would love to do a like Find your People
tour where literally you just get to come together and
like find friends locally, you know, Like we have dating coaches,
but like friend coach. One day, I'm gonna do a
Doctor Martin find your friends. Like I just go around,
we do a little pod and then we do a

(31:20):
couple of activities and you guys get to just like
kick it because I find that more people are looking
for their friends, Like that's what I see therapeutically. Maybe
people are seeing stuff differently in the real world, but
a lot of people are evolving past their friendships, needing
different things. And then also people need to acknowledge that
individuals can serve you in different ways, Like everyone doesn't
have the same capability. Like there can be someone who

(31:42):
I do like book clubs with. There can be someone
who I do brunch with. There can be someone who's
possibly on a different budget so we do like library
trips with. There can be someone who I get to
be incredibly like vapid and shallow with. And then there's
the other person who we're going through reading sixteen nineteen
and taking notes and making a curriculum. Like all of
these feed me.

Speaker 1 (32:00):
It's a.

Speaker 2 (32:02):
But sometimes I need to be a kiddie pool. Yeah
I don't like their things.

Speaker 1 (32:06):
Ye Can I be mean for a moment? Yeah? You have.
You have a tapestry of mosaic of friends. They don't
all have to fill they don't all have to complete
you or have to do everything. They can do pieces
and then not. You know that again, that builds up
a beautiful tapestry in your life.

Speaker 2 (32:20):
I agree with that, and that's life because we have
to feel as though that's a realistic expectation because there
can't be just one person who fulfills you anyway. Like
I'm not full one hundred thousand percent fulfilled by my
husband or my children, or my my parents or work
or school, but like when they all come together, like
it's just it makes for a fulfilling part of me.
So I would say I would attend more probably like

(32:41):
local events right of might join online spaces with like
shared identities and stuff like that. I'm also like a
very friendly person, so I literally just like if I
go to a workout class and I'd be like, oh,
I like your hair, you want to do lunch and
like a week Yeah, Like I know, I just like
mean people.

Speaker 1 (32:57):
Yeah that's tell you. But I think what you're picking
up it's like what are your what are your interests
and then going to their spaces and meeting people. So
if your interest is working out, then go to a
class there. Your interest is books, then like can you
go to a book event a book fair? Like what
are the thing if you like smoking weed? There are
weed events? Like what are the different places that you

(33:18):
can throw yourself into it's scary. Listen, the older you get,
the scarier is so, like, let's just acknowledge that. But
you're not going to meet your friends on your couch,
so you're not And just.

Speaker 2 (33:29):
You also need to acknowledge that. You know what, what
are they gonna say? No, some people have bad tastes.

Speaker 1 (33:32):
Yeah, okay, so some people don't know what diamond when
they see it, so you know they're loss Yeah, absolutely,
you know it is. It's like put yourself out there.
It's the same with dating. You put yourself out there,
but the stakes are low just because something doesn't work out.
It's about compatibility, not your worth. So it doesn't mean
that you're not worthy, you're not cool, you're not wonderful.
It just means that the two of you aren't compatible.
And that's totally fine.

Speaker 2 (33:55):
Yes, you could be the juiciest peach in Atlanta and
people be allergic to peaches. Like it's it just it
doesn't it doesn't matter. And also like someone's inability to
see your worth has no bearing on your actual work,
and it's not your job to convince them. Come on,
you know what I'm saying. Like, so no, absolutely, get
out there. First of all, it's farmers market season. Oh okay,
that's right, you know in this summer, that's the way

(34:17):
to meet people concerts or making or making lifelong friends.

Speaker 1 (34:23):
Go to a Beyonce concert. Okay, you have a shared interest,
go to Beyonce content. Everyone's very friendly at the Beyonce concern.
It actually is a vibe. Actually, there's so much like
I've you know, going going back to back to Cowboy
Carter and Renaissance. Like everyone is just like excited to
see you once. It like love's drought, like everyone is
just giving love. We're just so happy to see the queen.
So go to that's the real advice. Go to Beyonce consort.

Speaker 2 (34:45):
Go to a Beyonce concert. And there's a bunch of
craft stuff too, right, I crochet, there's crochet classes. You
can also do a classes. Community college does a bunch
of classes too. But like there's also what is it
like meet me or it's some kind of like group thing,
but like shared interest, like just go out enjoy yourself.

Speaker 1 (35:08):
This one says, how can I heal after separating from
my partner of over ten years? She was my best friend?

Speaker 2 (35:15):
Well one my whole energy is with you during this
new transition, because that kind of grief I find to
be pretty layered, Like you're not just losing in any realm,
you're not just losing a partner, but you're also losing
like the rhythm that you used to have in your life.
You're losing a specific kind of future that you may
have envisioned. And it's okay to feel like flailing in

(35:39):
the wind in that, yeah, because that's a significant amount
of time. One of the biggest things I tell with
people when they're dealing with grief, and I do want
to state the fact that you are grieving, yes, so
just to acknowledge that. So many times my clients will
be like, I just want to get to who I
was before, Like, oh, I used to be so happy before.
And my biggest thing is that person like they they

(36:00):
don't exist anymore, and not in a bad thing, not
like you stab them up. You know that prison doesn't
exist because we're shaped by our experiences. So your goal
is to love the new you. So figure out what
your new routine is, right, because that's that's really really difficult.
You may have to create what I tell some clients
are like a ritual of release, like thinking about what

(36:20):
the relationship gave you in the first place, thinking about
what it took from you as well, acknowledging what you
need now and figuring out what a new like oath
or dedication to yourself will be going forward. There could
also be just the simple things, as simple as like
they're your best friends. It's someone that you wanted to,
that you talk to all the time. So now as
soon as something big or small happens, you want to

(36:41):
call them. You know, right, You can either write that down,
write down the things, get them out, voice memo them.
You can also figure out your new friends and your
new support system as well. Like that. The answer to
the last question can also be something that's helpful for
you as well, and it doesn't solely have to be
It could be activities, it could be therapy. It doesn't
even have to be individual therapy. It can be group

(37:02):
therapy because like support, groups are incredibly helpful too. But
thinking about also like what has changed in your routine.
It could be something as simple as like they always
made the coffee, and I also it may sound silly,
but my coffee is trash now, and like now I'm
just mad because now I don't get to wake up
to the smell of like that espresso machine. So maybe
the new thing that you decide to do for yourself
is figure out, you know, a new coffee routine and

(37:23):
stuff like that. Because it's not solely just I miss
talking to them what you do, so I would say,
like finding another support system. It could also be the
little things I haven't taken out the track. Let me
say something, I haven't taken out the trash. Yeah, in ages,
like as soon as that trash can full fills up,
the feminism leaves my body.

Speaker 1 (37:42):
Like like looking at it, look at your man, like love,
what's happening?

Speaker 2 (37:49):
Am? I said?

Speaker 1 (37:50):
That's what I do when the circle fills up, I
look at my husband like love, what's going on? I
know most of that's mine, but like love, I don't know. Yeah, yeah,
are you okay? On you mad at me?

Speaker 2 (38:06):
I don't want to answer this new dating world. It's
part out here.

Speaker 1 (38:10):
Yeah. Yeah. I think that your your point about grief
is really important and the idea that because one, I
think our culture doesn't really do a great job at
acknowledging grief and allowing ourselves to take grief, and also
that like your feelings are going to be let's use
it messy and so like giving yourself time that like
I I don't have to Like you might go to

(38:32):
make coffee and your partner always makes coffee. You might
have a breakdown, right, and like allowing yourself the time
to have that breakdown. Yeah, and you know, you know,
you know, even like giving yourself a little more time
in the morning because you know, I might have to
have a little cry before I get to work. Even
creating more space for you to grieve. Reaching out to
also the people in your life, your friends, group, your family, whoever,

(38:55):
to say, hey, I'm going through this, so you have
people who are checking up on you. I find that
to be and that's in anything I've really One of
the ways that I know that I've grown up a
bit is when I'm going through something hard, I reach
out to friends and I say, something hard is happening.
I don't really want to talk about right now, but
just check on me, you know what I'm saying. Just
like being able to pre empt that I will need
support and I may not be able to ask for

(39:16):
it when I'm in the middle of something. So as
in a moment of clarity, let me just say, hey,
I'm separating from a partner of ten years and this
is probably going to be huge. Let me, like, right now,
in this moment of clarity, reach out to the resources
that I have and let them know that I need
to be checked on as I build, as you said,
a new routine.

Speaker 2 (39:35):
I think that's a great tip for anyone to do,
to be honest with you, because one, it not only
acknowledges the fact that you have the wherewithoughts to reach
out for support, it also addresses the level of recept.
Like recept like how receptive you are is like I
do need help, but I can't talk about it right now,
so I may be less likely to reach out, But
that doesn't mean stop reaching out. Yes, yes, I think

(39:57):
that's a very good thing to do, because a lot
of people go go through these really tough moments and
they really don't have it in them to kind of
like reply at times, and I think it's helpful to
let people know that, like, I don't There's nothing wrong
with stating I need space, but please continue to check
in off. Like with my friends, we had to have
a conversation at one transition of my life and being like, no,
I probably don't want to go, but I do want

(40:20):
to be invited.

Speaker 1 (40:21):
Though, yes, because.

Speaker 2 (40:24):
And they were like, oh that's weird, but we get
you know, and they have no problem with it. They'll
be like, oh, do you want to come?

Speaker 1 (40:31):
No I don't, but thank you for thank you for
inviting me. I really needed that.

Speaker 2 (40:37):
Yeah, you know, like, do you want to go out
at ten pm?

Speaker 1 (40:40):
Girl? I know, are y'all sick? Yeah, I'm a mother, listen,
I'm a mother too, not you know, I ain't got
no kids, but you know, as a mother, you know
you different.

Speaker 2 (41:01):
Let me tell you something.

Speaker 1 (41:02):
No, yeah, I might have kids. I'll be five. I
have no kids that I'll be up to five.

Speaker 2 (41:07):
Five. But if it's like, okay, say so today is May.
If you ask me for an event in June, if
I want to go out at ten you're giving me
five weeks to I will change.

Speaker 1 (41:17):
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely, I need I need like a week
or two notice to know that we're going to go
out like that, and then I'll get it together.

Speaker 2 (41:25):
Now I can prep that.

Speaker 1 (41:26):
Absolutely. I gotta change my sleep schedule a little bit,
like I will change my sleep. I'm plan some naps.
You know, I'm be there. I got you.

Speaker 2 (41:33):
Yeah, yeah, my outfit steamed and hung up. Ready ready,
if you asked me on Monday to go out at TPN.

Speaker 1 (41:40):
You lost your mind quite Like do you hate me? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (41:43):
Are we cool?

Speaker 1 (41:44):
Yeah? I thought we liked each other, that's right.

Speaker 2 (41:46):
I thought we liked No, but yeah, I definitely. I
think that's a great, great practice for anyone to do.
First of all, because some people feel, you know, there
could be a lot of stress with when you don't
hear from your friends. So even just saying exactly what
you said, like just check in, I'm okay. I love
the fact when people use like the same way you
said foosball. I tell a lot of families to use
a code word that lets them know like where they're at,

(42:07):
like falafel. Okay, Like you're upset, Yes, you need space
and you're not ready to talk, but I do still
need to keep an eye on you because you are upset.
Will come to me. But yeah, I think it's also
important to just think of what the relationship gave you,
what it took from you, the things that you were
used to in that relationship, talk about what you write,
what you need now, and figure out how to get
those things and just acknowledge the fact that it is grief,

(42:29):
because some people don't. But that's not on them. It's
it's it's what you feel. Any kind of loss is grief.
I think I mentioned earlier. You can grieve decisions that
you wanted, like and even once you know, not everybody
you know. I don't know if this was like, oh,
we broke and we both decided that it wasn't appropriate.
It could be like, oh no, I still want to
be with that person, not only am I said.

Speaker 1 (42:50):
I am. Yes, that's valid too.

Speaker 2 (42:54):
You need people to validate the loss that you're going through.
So that's why I also love the idea of support
groups because people c you may not be able to
do that, but you may have a therapeutic environment that
would be able to do that too.

Speaker 1 (43:04):
Me. I love that this says. I think my friend
is in an emotionally abusive relationship, and I'm not sure
how to intervene because she seems in denial. I've told
her a few times that I think her guy is
exhibiting narcissists and abusive behavior, but she won't leave him.
After the last time I told her that she should leave,
she stopped talking to me for a bit we're talking again,

(43:24):
but not about her relationship. I'm concerned and not sure
how to help any advice. This is a heavier one,
but obviously one that comes up, and I brought it
up too, because we're in this as we're recording this,
we're in this moment in the zeitgeist where we're seeing
a lot of abuse in some of our bigger celebrities,
making the Saallya and Cassie and Hollie Bailey, and I

(43:45):
think there's a conversation on people victim blaming and excusing
the abuse and ignoring the abuse. And so somebody reaching
out saying they're seeing something and they don't know how
to help. I think is an important thing to try
and and tackle.

Speaker 2 (44:02):
Yeah, so so many different things. So I'm addressed that one,
and then the Cassie, Meghanese, Stallion Halle like yeah, because
that that kind of stuff pisses me off when you
try to be an adult. So one, I will say,
your concern for your friend is incredibly real, but so
is your friend's agency. You know, their autonomy and emotional

(44:22):
abuse is isolated, and so your friend may not be
able to name it. And I know that there's this
you know you go to the point where the goal
you want to fix the situation. You want to let
them know like, oh, they ain't worth nothing. But when
I say like they have autonomy, I don't mean in
terms of like the way that they're treated. I mean
in terms of like telling someone to leave someone even
if it is a difficult situation. It's it's even it's

(44:44):
even more helpful to say I am here when you
need me, right, Like it's even more helpful to say
if you ever get into scenario, I don't have to
agree with your decisions to be there to support you, Like,
my goal isn't to judge you. I want you to
know that I am here. And it can be incredibly
difficult to watch someone that you know and love be
treated less than I totally understand that, right, But your

(45:05):
goal shouldn't be to fix her just simply because emotional abuse,
any form of abuse, is isolating and they may not
be ready to name it. But one of the ways
that it is able to consistently happen is because they separate,
like the abuser will separate the person from all that
they're connected to. So your goal is not to fix her.
You want to stay connected, So that she knows that

(45:26):
she's not alone when she I don't even know if
you said it was a one, but so that they
know that they're not alone when they're ready, right Because
the one thing that we also have to acknowledge when
it comes to trauma and abuse is that it alters
our brain chemistry and not altered and not only alters
the way that we see ourselves, but the way we
see the world, the way that we're able to process scenarios.
We don't know the intricacies. If that, maybe they feel
as though they're being a burden, if they don't have

(45:47):
if they're worried about the financial means to exit the situation,
right like, So don't think about it as fixing. Think
about it as like, I'm my goal, if you're the friend,
my goal is to let you know that I'm here
to support you. My goal is to hopefully be able
to talk to you and have you have an example
of like a healthy relationship. Because even when it comes
to romantic relationships and friendships, other than the fact that

(46:09):
I am like intimate with my husband, my best friendships
and my spousal relationship is exactly the same. So don't
think that by you need to also realize that by
modeling a healthy relationship with her, you're also you're also
showing her like, this is a friendship, but a relationship
is supposed to be even more. And you talk to
me in a way that my friend would never talk

(46:31):
to me. So it's also about the fact that you
are modeling a healthy relationship. Some people think, oh, it's
just a friendship, so they may not see it the
way a relationship is a relationship, agreed right, and emotional
abuse is very It's like any form of abuse that
the hallwork is like manipulation, making people question themselves. You're
going to isolate them, it could be financially, You're going

(46:51):
to consistently degrade them. There's going to be ups and
downs because there's a reason why it's so hard to leave,
because you may be fixated on the good moment so
much that you forget about the bad moment. And you
have to realize that when people are dealing with abuse
and they are the victims of abuse, it alters the
way that they think and see scenarios. It does so,
like I totally understand you probably see your friendly I

(47:11):
don't even know why you would go through this you
the best things in slice spread, You're amazing, but something
they the abuser is breaking them.

Speaker 1 (47:18):
Yeah. I was in an emotional abusive relationship in my
twenties and I didn't I couldn't name it until a
couple of years. I got out of it and I
saw it. But one of my friends saw it, and
he didn't call it emotional abuse. We didn't have the
language to call it abuse. But it was like something
is happening here, and now being able to look back
at it, it's like, oh, it was so you don't

(47:39):
you're not thinking logically as the press relationship.

Speaker 2 (47:42):
And that's the goal. They have to tear down the
way you think in order for it to happen.

Speaker 1 (47:46):
Yeah, you're not seeing it. You've been like you know,
from silent treatments to the threats to the control, Like
you're just not I was always remembering the good times,
because the good times were so good that they're like, well,
if I can just do this, then we'll get back there.
If I can just order those bursts of moments, they're
like when you're on that downward spiral and you're like,

(48:06):
I'm about to pack my bags and here comes a
great moment that pulls you back in or something financial,
and so yeah, I think that as a friend witnessing it,
I think that your advice of saying I'm here when
you need me and trying to keep that connection is everything.
And even just like I always say, like, just like
planting a seed, even if you don't call it abuse,

(48:27):
but just like, hey, something seems a little off or
you don't seem like yourself, just a plant to seed
because it may not root right now. But I will
tell you that thing that my friend said to me,
which was like this partner dims your light didn't hit
in the moment, but a few months later it did
start to take hold on me. And I was like,
oh wait, if this is my best friend and they're
saying this something, yeah, letting.

Speaker 2 (48:49):
Them know like sprinkle, sprinkle that positive affirmation. I always
make it a point to pay attention to people who
feel the need to apologize for their joy or like justify,
oh I didn't mean to get too excited about this,
or you know, oh you know, let me let me
calm down. You know, I don't want to say because
those are the people who actually need need their need

(49:10):
your light more than anything. There's a reason why they
think their joy is an inconvenience. There's a reason why
they got some kind of internalized message that like if I,
if I, you know, shine too much, like someone's going
to try to dim it. Like the people who feel
the need to apologize for joy or being too happy,
those are the people who actually need to be focused
on more than anything. And and it's more so like

(49:31):
just as working with people who are clients who have
been abused, or like even just in in and personal
and professional life, like it's it's it's it's a typical
sign like something in them, somebody around them have made
have convinced them that their joy is like why like
what do you have to be so happy about? Or
you are always bragging or you think you're better than everyone,
like something about it just their automatic statement of oh,

(49:53):
let me, you know, I don't mean to brag. Why yeah,
I always pay super I pay way more close attention
to those people feel the need to apologize for their
joy because it's been my experience that there's someone around
them that's making them feel as though they're not worthy
of it.

Speaker 1 (50:07):
Okay, well, while I have you for a few more moments,
give me your tea or your thoughts on what you're
seeing in terms of the response to Halle Billy making
the Stallion Cassie, and just what we're seeing in terms
of the victim blaming and you know, the abuse abuser apologists.

(50:30):
I would love to know what you're thinking.

Speaker 2 (50:32):
First of all, I just want to be clear. Abuse
doesn't discriminate on like fame, money, followers, activity, like attractivity level,
attractive levels or anything. What it does is it praise
one because these people are predators isolation and control and silence.
So when we question or when we mock black women

(50:52):
who come forward, especially in the public eye, what we're
doing is re enacting the harm that they are trying
to survive in the first place. And what we really
need to do is ask why do we why do
we feel as though black women need to prove that
they were harmed in order to be worthy of help,
because there's no accountability. There's no accountability, like it's just
a misogynal wire. Like the believing black women isn't about

(51:13):
blind faith, it's about understanding the historic and current deevaluation
of our plane in the first place. And then I
see a lot of people talking about wha if I
if they had money, they could leave, which shows the
just ridiculous.

Speaker 1 (51:25):
Thing that's happenings.

Speaker 2 (51:27):
Misunderstanding of how abuse functions. Abuse isn't it's about control.
It's not solely about income, but it's about financial it's
about making you see the world differently and see yourself differently.
You can have access to wealth and still be cut
off from safety, especially when the entire world is watching
and calling you a liar. Yes, so first of all,
how the freak dare you let me say something?

Speaker 1 (51:50):
It's been a while, a couple of weeks on the
internet watching that, it's like being like, wait, are y'all serious?

Speaker 2 (51:56):
And are you insane?

Speaker 1 (51:57):
See it from men and to see it from women too,
where you're like, are y'all fucking y'all really lost? For
these abusers?

Speaker 2 (52:05):
Wild abusers creditors. So instead of asking why anyone has stayed,
first of all, don't think about what are the systems
that made the individuals think that they couldn't leave? And
what am I doing to contribute to that message? And
also read a freaking book. But like, abuse doesn't just
happen behind closed doors. It thrives in environments where people

(52:26):
think they have to protect their abuser more than the survivor.
And I really do think it's time for individuals to
acknowledge the fact. Because I had this conversation with my
students and our mental health, hip hop and activism class
where we talked about when do you prioritize the art
over the artists? And one of my students mentioned, so
what does that mean? They particularly were talking about R Kelly.
They're like, okay, so every single time there's an R.
Kelly song or something produced by R Kelly, we don't

(52:47):
listen to it. Like that's a lot to do. Activism
and being an agent of change and advocating is not
convenient at all. The status quo is.

Speaker 1 (52:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:57):
So if I can teach that to children, I think
think you need to understand it as well. We really
need to think about this separation of the art, separating
the art and the artists. Oh well, they make good tunes, okay.
From there's no part of killing me the ridiculous amount
the fact and this is just a personal aside, it's
something that has always irritated me. But the fact that
Drey named his his headphones beats and he's an abuser,

(53:20):
I'm sorry, that's always.

Speaker 1 (53:22):
But oh, yeah, he did get in trouble, right, Yeah,
he got in trouble with his wife.

Speaker 2 (53:29):
Yes, he's had multiple issues, you know what I'm saying.
So like it's it's like you you see the products
that they create, and you think that that's where that
that's you think that's just a pity of their humanity.

Speaker 1 (53:38):
It's you. That's the thing about the artist and the
artist and art and the artist is that like the
art is not detached from the artist. It's not so
the art that you're consuming is trafficking in that artist's good.

Speaker 2 (53:51):
How do you think they had the money to How
do you think they had the money to pay off
every single person who saw these individuals be abused. How
do you think they How do you think they had
the money to make sure people were separated from their families.
Where did they get the money from? They got the
money from you buying their albums and going to their concerts.
You can't separate the art and not the artists, because
by separating the art, you're separating the artists, and you're
contributing to their ability to consistently keep the cycle of abuse.

(54:14):
You think r Kelly, how did he have the money
for private jets to hide people, and how did he
has a significant literacy issue, so how did he hire
the lawyers to make sure the contracts are appropriate? Because
you keep stringing streaming one two step or dancing the
name alove instead of acknowledging the fact that he's destroying families.
You cannot separate the art and not the artists. And
if that makes it so that you can't play another

(54:34):
song or you have to be more aware, get over it,
you know. I think I think part of the part
part is like people just want to walk through unabashedly
and don't have to have any accountability like, oh, well
I didn't know, but you do know now.

Speaker 1 (54:49):
And you do it.

Speaker 2 (54:51):
You still do it, so you just want to well,
you know, we got to see both sides. There's no
there's one side of abuse.

Speaker 1 (54:57):
Yes, it's always and it becomes this thing about like
especially in in terms of our community, like you're tearing
the black man down. It's like you have to hold
a difference between tearing a black man the figure down
and accountability for an abuser, right, like, yeah, those are
two different things when we are because we're still human.

Speaker 2 (55:13):
Yeah, black people can be awful.

Speaker 1 (55:14):
As absolutely it's not about their race.

Speaker 2 (55:17):
So, like, you're the most pro black person period.

Speaker 1 (55:21):
I love black people absolutely, but like I don't love abusers,
and I don't care what race you are, what your
background is. I'm going to hold you accountable. And the r.
Kelly thing was really dark to me because those songs
that were coming out one two Step were because he
knew he had to fix the image and like so
like again, you're participating in things that are actually being
used to to protect the abuser. And so I agree

(55:44):
with you.

Speaker 2 (55:45):
Like, yeah, people, when we talk about black love, you
have to also understand that your black love is not
solely like compassion and blindly following someone. Your black love
should also be accountability, right, And so you need to
be protective of the Black community depending in the fact
of harm that comes to it comes to it or
the individuals, and it no matter where it comes from. Right. So,
if the harm is coming from another black person, your

(56:07):
black love is accountability. That person needs to be held
accountable too. You can't just say black love is just
blind faith.

Speaker 1 (56:12):
Right.

Speaker 2 (56:13):
We can love the black community and also realize that
in doing that, our black love is holding people accountable
and make sure what it's happening. Is protecting the black community,
and we harm each other as.

Speaker 1 (56:21):
Well, yes, but that is black love. Black love is
protecting each other.

Speaker 2 (56:25):
It's protecting each other, even from uncles and the church
that be tripping and aunts who have colorist issues. And yes,
it's it's inappropriate. So like, stop asking this whole thought
process of like why they stayed, think about the systems
that contributed to them being for it's feeling like they
couldn't escape in the first place. Don't think that abuse
has like, oh, once you hit a certain income level,

(56:47):
abuse just escapes you. You make a million dollars, you
can no longer be abused. You're insulated from it. How
dare you? It's so ridiculous. And please be aware every
single person around you is hearing these messages. Yes, and
all you're doing is letting them know who doesn't who
they don't have a safe space with. And part of
me is happy for that, because I want that person
who has been struggling with abuse to know that you're

(57:08):
not a safe space for it, but to.

Speaker 1 (57:10):
Know who is.

Speaker 2 (57:10):
So a lot of times people will be like, oh,
I wanted to be silent. No, I like my racism,
but I want to know who you are.

Speaker 1 (57:16):
Yeah, I want allowed. I want to know who you are.
That's the thing, Like pay attention to the people, how
people are talking about and what they're saying about these cases,
it's really important to know who in your space is
actually safe and down to protect, and who are abuse
or apologists.

Speaker 2 (57:32):
And who you probably shouldn't be left alone with, because
if you're an abuse or apologist, it's because you identify
with that. So like, is it easy for you to say, well,
there's two sides of abuse, because there were two sides
of abuse when you abuse that person last week? Yeah,
I don't trust it at all at all.

Speaker 1 (57:48):
I was watching I was watching something about Diddy and
the trial and he has a friend who was like
defending him, and it was like the journalist was like,
and you saw that video right where he's dragging Cassie.
He's like, yeah, but like there's a cause and effect.
It was like, uh oh no, no no, no, no, no.

Speaker 2 (58:03):
No, no no, no, friend is beating people.

Speaker 1 (58:05):
No no, no, Like what are we talking about love? No no, no,
there's no You're not gonna sit here and make excuses
for that violence.

Speaker 2 (58:14):
Yeah, nothing justifies that, no one And anyone who's on
the other side of this, who's listening to this. There
is nothing that you could have possibly said or done
to just be deserving of any of that. And I
know it's going to be hard for that to come through,
But that doesn't mean I'm gonna stop saying Yeah. So,
like I think that friend should think about it as well. Like,
you know, oh, I've noticed this is different about you.
Maybe they that friend also needs more positive affirmations. Maybe

(58:35):
they need like a once a weekly you know what
I really love about you? Your compassion? You know what
I really love about you? Yes, the fact that you're
there for me. You know what I really love about you?
Your ability to try hard and put your best foot Yes,
you know. Just just because they may not be recept
to it at that moment, just like you mentioned, it
doesn't mean that they don't hear it, and it doesn't
mean that they're not going to notice the stark difference

(58:55):
between how you pouring them as a friend and how
this person takes from them as a romantic part. Yes,
it does shift the way that they're able to think.
But neural plasticity is like we're able to rewire our
brains too, we just need to have the bability to
do that, so I can understand how difficult it is
to watch that. But let them know that you're there
for them, be a beacon in their life, and let
them know that you're going to and model an appropriate

(59:17):
relationship with them too. But there's nothing you can do
that can be deserving of being abuse. I can be
walking buttonneked in the street, then still doesn't mean that
you have the ability to touch my body now should
I know? But the abuse is about it's consent, like
you're just not some meant to touch people in the
first place or treat people that way. So there's nothing
you could possibly do to deserve or justify the way
that they're treating you. If anything, one of the harmarks

(59:39):
of abuse is isolation. Get closer to them, yeah, and
let that abuse or know like I'm not I'm not
going there. I hate your gut and I still will
be here every single Sunday bringing this person love and care.
Don't touch the food because I'm a POISONO piece you got,
I will find a way to make you don't have

(01:00:00):
trust to.

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
I don't like you inferiod. Doctor Martin, Thank you so
so much. This was an incredible, incredible interview, and I'm
just happy. Yeah, I love your face. Oh my god,
I love your face so much. I cannot wait for
us to meeting person and the woymen I hug.

Speaker 2 (01:00:24):
I know I need to come out to please.

Speaker 1 (01:00:27):
Yes, we won't make it happen. I cannot wait to
hug it, squeeze you. Thank you so so much, and
I'll talk to you soon. Well, you know we're hose here,
but hose with heart. So before we part ways, let

(01:00:49):
me speak to yours. I love doctor Raquel Martin. I mean,
if you don't follow her on Instagram TikTok, please do.
She's incredible and always dropping so many lovely gems, as
she did today in our conversation. A couple of my takeaways.

(01:01:12):
You can grieve correct decisions tough. There's something liberating about
that sometimes, I think, you know, I'll speak for myself
in thinking that you've made the right decision, and so
it should feel good because I made the right decision.
But you know, sometimes even if it's the right decision,

(01:01:32):
the correct decision, the accurate decision, it can still be painful,
It can still be sad, it can still be heartbreaking
and so can you give yourself permission to grieve, you know,
to take the time to grieve. I really loved you know,
in talking about the nostalgia and the loneliness that we

(01:01:55):
can get wrapped up in as we pursue our romantic partner.
I love that doctor Martin said, don't waste your present
on a future that may never come. Don't fall in
love with potential because they may never be that person.
I think that's such a precise way of saying, deal
with reality. What's really happening in front of you? What

(01:02:18):
does this person really You know that that old adage
actions speak louder than words, right, So people can say
a whole bunch of lovely things, but what are they
doing and how is it making you feel? Don't deny that,
Don't deny how you're feeling, don't deny their actions. Don't
rewrite the script. Deal with reality what's in front of you,

(01:02:39):
and allow that to guide what choice you make, even
if you make the choice to stay or to go back.
But you know, I think we talked about this with Shahem,
which is, if you're going to go back to a
relationship that has ended, do it with your eyes open,
make it make it an intentional choice. So deal with reality.
Don't deal with what the fuel might be or what

(01:03:00):
the potential is. Deal with reality, what's actually happening. I'm
and make your decisions from that place. I love fine friends.
Don't be afraid of rejection. What's the worst they can say? Now, listen,
you're not going to find your friends on the couch.
But I do want to impress again. The older we get,
the harder it doesn't make friends. And I respect that.

(01:03:22):
And you know, depending on where you live, you know,
and if you know how your identity politics play into it.
If you're in an area if you're queer and there's
not a lot of queer people around you, if you're
black and a lot of black people in your area,
you know, things like that may, you know, make things
a little more challenging. But put yourself out there. Think

(01:03:44):
about the activities that you like to do. What are
those you know, where are those spaces that are putting
on events or pottery class? Highly recommend I've met some
cool folks at pottery class. You know, just like finding
the things or fitness classes, finding the the communities that
you can uh forge your path into, finding people who

(01:04:08):
who enjoy some of the things you enjoy, and it
might not be perfect. You know, sometimes you gotta date
your friends, not romantically, but you gotta date these people.
You know. They might go on one little hang with
you and you like it, go on a second little hey,
maybe you don't like it a second time. You know
what I'm saying. Like, there's a little bit of leg
work that comes in with making friends, So don't be
afraid of that. Just kind of uh, prep yourself, give yourself,

(01:04:32):
give your nervous system. Heads up. This is gonna take
some time. This is gonna take a moment. But we're
gonna get through this, and we're gonna we're gonna do this.
We're gonna we're gonna put our best foot forward and
have a little hope, uh and put ourselves out there.
Rejection may come, will come, whether it's them rejecting you,
you rejecting them. But that is just a part of life.

(01:04:52):
It is not a reflection of your worth. Yeah, as
doctor Raquel so beautifully put, you could be the did
you see a speech in Atlanta and people are allergic
to peaches and that is tea. That is tea for
the one that was like the ten years, the grieving

(01:05:14):
going back to this, you know, giving yourself space to grieve,
asking for help in moments of clarity. You know, I
think that in grief it's not always continuous. There are
these moments where you might find yourself laughing, there are
these moments where you might find yourself calm, And I
think that it's okay to in those moments ask for help.

(01:05:38):
I've done it plenty of times where I'll say to
my friend, Hey, this thing is happening. Just check on me,
because I will probably become very introverted. Finding a support group,
finding a therapist, or you know, getting professional support as
you navigate big transitions like a ten year relationship coming
to an end. I think, you know, sometimes there's a

(01:06:01):
lot of shame around asking for help, right, there's a
we should always know what to do. And we've talked
about this introducing disruptive curiosity, and you know, being able
to ask those hard questions and say the hard things
out loud and say I don't know is not a weakness.
In fact, it gives you the power back to figure
out what is best for you. And sometimes you need

(01:06:23):
support you have not you know how many of us
have had ten year relationships that then end it, ten
year romantic relationships and then end it. Why would you
know how to navigate that? And that can be for anything.
There are moments that happen in your life that you've
never experienced, so why would you know how to deal
with it? You might need professional support. Your friends and

(01:06:46):
your community can support you, but don't be afraid to
get a little professional help where you can. Again, whether
that is one on one, whether that's in group, whether
that's you know, you know, tele ahelp or whatever it is,
but finding the ways a book, you know, recommended books
or podcast or whatever it is that can help support

(01:07:09):
you find your peace. And of course let's talk abuse,
emotional abuse specifically, but any kind of abuse, if you're
witnessing it, or you are you are concerned that someone
that you love might be experiencing abuse. I really love
that doctor Rakel said, it's more helpful to say I'm

(01:07:31):
here if you need me. That the goal shouldn't be
to fix, and that we have to remember that abuse
alters brain chemistry, It alters how the person being abused
sees themselves and sees the world. So if you are
witnessing it, or if you are concerned that a friend,
a family member, a loved one might be experiencing something.

(01:07:53):
I think, you know, it's tempting to be like, girl,
get out, well what you're doing, it's not waste your
time that you like, it's tempting to do that, but
I think it's actually our responsibility to be softer, you know,
to to affirm them, to love on them, to remind
them that we're there, to remind them how special they are,

(01:08:17):
and to stay present because abuse is really about isolating.
I experienced that firsthand, where I suddenly just you know,
by the time I got out of that relationship, I
looked up and I had to rebuild a lot of
my friendships because I was just gone. I was gone.
So if you are, if you have a friend or

(01:08:38):
loved one who is navigating an abusive relationship, stay present,
stay present. It's hard, it's difficult, but you know, relationships
are not always fifty to fifty. Yeah, sometimes it is
sixty forty, Okay, sometimes it is ninety ten. And if

(01:08:59):
a friend of yours, someone you love is navigating abuse,
they are going to be in that ten percent maybe less,
and so you might have to lean in a little
more and that's okay. You'll be grateful that you did,
and you know they will be so grateful you did

(01:09:20):
as well. Pay attention to the people who apologize for
their joy. There's a reason they think their joy is
an inconvenience. Here's what I'll say. There's abuse happening all
around us. And I don't mean that to be dark
or morbid, but there's abuse. There's a culture that supports abuse.

(01:09:42):
You know, I keep thinking about that Cassie video and
the video of her being you know, dragged in the
hotel floor, like from the elevator, in front of cameras,
in a public space that anyone could have seen. And
then for people to say, well, why didn't she leave?
Like that was her trying to leave and she got
dragged back by her scalp. And your question is why

(01:10:06):
didn't she leave? Why doesn't she leave? She's a grown up.
Abuse is a really hard, violent, devastating thing that happens,
and as doctor Raquel said, it alters your brain chemistry,

(01:10:30):
and so don't ask why somebody doesn't leave. There are
so many systems in place, so many things that are
happening that keeps them there. It's terrifying. It is scary,

(01:10:51):
and it's hard to ask for help. And if the
abuser is abusing in the way that you know, in
a successful way, no one sees it. No one thinks
to see it. They're very charming in public and so

(01:11:15):
no one believes that they could be a monster in private. So,
you know, I think that we as people, the best
way that we can love each other is to stay alert.
To stay alert if something feels off, if something your
gut is like, oh something, something's not right here, you know,

(01:11:37):
listen to it. Pay attention, Pay attention to people, Pay
attention to what they're not saying. Pay attention to their silence.
Pay attention when they disappear on you, Pay attention when
they retreat. Pay attention, and then ask questions softly, gently

(01:12:00):
ask questions. All right, that's all I got. I love
you so so much, don't forget. If you want to
be part of more of the mess, part of our
home unity, check out my subsack Brandoncaugomn dot substack dot com.
Every Monday night, six pm Pacific nine pm Eastern, I

(01:12:23):
do a live stream on substack. We have some incredible
guests that chat with me about a range of things, Essentially,
I try to create a joyful space where we can
talk about the hot topics and you know, cultural issues
of the day. But you know, again with joy Forward,
but we want to talk, we want to talk some
shit as well. And then every Friday I post a

(01:12:43):
little mini pod called Hey Everybody, where I give you
either more insight on what's happening on our podcast here,
tell Me Something Messy, BTS projects that are outcoming, things
that I'm also reckoning with additional messy mail. It is
a good time, so I hope you'll join us, and
it is free to subscribe for you know, the live streams,

(01:13:04):
but it is five dollars a month to get access
to the pod and all the other goodies. I don't
know why I'm talking so softly. I am full transpiracy.
It is Memorial Day as I'm recording this, and I
just had a little birthday vacation for myself, and so

(01:13:25):
I'm coming back softly into the workflow. Anyways, I love
you so much. You can find me on Instagram as
well at Brandon Kyle Goodman. You can find our podcast
at tell Me Something Messy, and you can join our
community on the Messy Monday's substack. When you subscribe, you'll
get weekly posts, recommendations on sex and self and so

(01:13:46):
much more. Also, I want to hear from you, so
send your topic ideas, your messy stories, your submissions, your
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You can also call us at six six nine sixty
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(01:14:08):
with all your hoe and ASPIRING hoe. Friends really really
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spit make sure they eat the kitty before they beat the,
kitty before fuckcation or suckation. Communication and in case you
haven't heard it, yet today you are so deeply. LOVED

(01:14:30):
i love you. Bye thank you so much for listening
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It Tell Me Something messy was executive produced By Ali,
Perry Gabrielle collins And Yours. Truly our producer and editor
Is vince De. Johnny for more podcasts From iHeartRadio And

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