Your Healing Is Not Dependent On Their Response w/ Lena Waithe

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I want to be excited before coming here, on the
way here, or like if you're coming to my house
and hang out, there's a oh, there's an excitement. Yes,
I'm going to see Brandon today. We're gonna talk, We're
gonna vibe. And I require that a.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Thousand percent in every relationship.

Speaker 1 (00:14):
Absolutely, And if I'm not excited, if I'm not looking forward,
yeah I'm not coming.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
You know what, this is a safe space to talk
about relationships, love and sex. Now let me tell you
something messy. Hello and Happy Pride, Happy Pride month. You know,
we gay every day, but we especially gay. I want
to say in May because that rhymes, but it's June,
June to the moon. Does that work? I don't know.

(00:48):
So this past weekend we had wes Hollywood Pride. I
think I've talked about this, like wes Hollywood and Los
Angeles have separate Pride, So it's my understanding that this
coming weekend is La Pride Lot. Anyways, we hope Pride.
They have like a festival in the park and I
think there's a parade. I don't really know because I

(01:09):
didn't go. But there were some other parties and I
had us. We had us a time. So I I
don't really love going to the festival. Not not because
it's a Pride festival. I'm just not a festival girly.
Like I'm not at Coachella, I'm not at you know, Sunday,
and I'm not I'm not a festival girly. It's like
so many people. It really rattles my brain. My nervous

(01:32):
system gets just regulated because it's a lot of energy,
and especially with like you know, a pride energy. You know,
people are are in various states of unrest, various states
of drugs, and so it can be a lot. And
so my bestie and I one of my best seats
and I started doing this thing where we set our
intentions before we go out. So we're like, when we

(01:55):
know we're going to like one of the big gay
parties or gay warehouse parties, and we're like, no, we
want to go because we want to dance, want to
have a vibe, but like we want to also set
intentions because be the vibe, you know, instead of like
letting the vibes happen to you, be the vibe, be
the vibe you wish to see in the world. Isn't
that what they say, didn't that what Gandhi said be
the vibe you wish to see in the world. And

(02:17):
so we made our intentions that I want to read
you some of our intentions. Okay, I said that we
wanted liberated fun. Okay, not just any kind of fun,
but fun where you're like, we're free, baby. Okay. Meaningful
connections because I find that a lot of these events
is small talk. And if you don't know this about
me now, please no, I hate small talk. Don't talk

(02:38):
about the fucking weather. I fucking can't do it. Like,
tell me something, even if it's two seconds. Tell me
something real, tell me something messy. Okay, So meaningful connections.
Ancestral safety, because safety is one thing, but I really,
I really want to feel my graand like if you
play in my fucking face, know that my grandmother has
your number. You know what I'm saying. And sesstual safety. Okay,

(03:02):
So really, don't come at me any kind of ways, left, right, sideways,
don't do it because the ancestors got me. We want
to jaw dropping music, open hearted vibes, unapologetically rating our
light softness, a memorable evening we will smile about for
years to come. Honey, I was eating on this, Okay,
feeling the truth my best of your other is feeling

(03:23):
the truth that's always there, because we're talking about hindsight
is twenty twenty. But the truth of things is actually
always present, like even in the moment, the truth of
how you feel, the truth of what's happening is always
actually present. But do we want to see it? Compassion
for ourselves and others, spirit guidance, intuitive nudges towards certain choices.
And I did say this, big fat, veiny thick dicks

(03:51):
attached to compassionate, sexy sex loving men. Listen, Okay, wait,
hold on, let me start it. Let me I want
you to add that or some version of that to
your intentions. I said that because there are plenty of
dicks in the sea, and you can ask for any dicks,
and there are plenty of dicks. I'm gonna go to
these parties. It's a gay party, I'm gonna see lots
of dicks. But I wanted a specific kind of dick,

(04:13):
and I wanted that dick to be attached to a
specific kind of person. Okay, And so I wanted to
say it all. I was like, I want a big
fat veiny, thick dick attached to a compassionate, sexy, sex
loving man. That's what I wanted. Did I get it?
That's fucking love. I got it all. I'm not gonna
give you. Listen, I'll tell you all about the details

(04:36):
on the substack. You know, I'm rebranding the Hey Everybody,
Subseack Pod to the Messy Mom Pod. So I'm gonna
tell you more about the stories of my pride on
the Messy Mom Pod over on subsack printiccogament dot subsack
dot com. But I ooh, girl, I got to that
party and somebody started dancing on me and then I

(04:58):
like felt I was like, oh my god, that said.
I looked up and I said, thank you, Grandma. Thank
you Grandma. You like your child, baby, you lay your child.
You sent me that big okay, and the man was
very compassionate. It was lovely. Anyways, we'll talk about it
on the podcast. Anyways. Well, by the way, welcome to
the show. This is telling me something messy. I'm your host,

(05:20):
Brandon Kyle Goodman. But you could call me a dick conjurer,
because I certainly did conjure that big fat bandy thick
dick period. Okay, she's a manifesto. Baby, you know what
that means? Well, actually you don't, because it's the first
time we're using that sound and wasn't it epic? Honey?

(05:42):
That sound means all them trumpets mean that we are
doing a Messy master Class, which is an episode where
I get to dive deep into a subject that our
guest has a lot of experience or expertise it. And
today our Messy master Class is about adult relationships with
our mothers and family. And I'm so excited to have
that conversation with my friend and mentor the one, the

(06:05):
only Lena. Wait now, while she gets situated, we will
get our messy Masterclass started with a hoe manifest sto
repeat after me aloud or in your head. Grant me
the serenity to unpack my shame, the courage to heal,
the wisdom to know that sex is not about penetration,
the audacity to advocate for my pleasure and boundaries, the

(06:27):
strength to not call my ex that fuck boy, fuck girl,
or fuck may for it is better to masturbate by
myself in peace than to let someone play in my
motherfucking face. Let the whole unity say ho lujah. I
am so excited to have Lena wait on the show.
In twenty seventeen, Lena won the Emmy for Best Comedy

(06:49):
Writing for the Thanksgiving episode of Master of None, the
first black woman to do so. As a writer, producer, actor,
and founder, Lena Waite expertly taps into emerging societal trends
with a sharp wit, speaking to a myriad of experiences
from her unique perspective while challenging audiences to think outside

(07:09):
of conventional norms. For her numerous television successes, Waith was
named the Hollywood Reporter's twenty twenty TV Producer of the Year,
making her the youngest to receive the massive honor. Waith
is an advocate for queer representation throughout the industry and
has been honored with several accolades and is featured in
numerous LGBTQ impact lists and pride issues across publications such

(07:35):
as The Hollywood Reporter, Fast Company, Variety, and more. Y'all
please help me, welcome, lead away, Helena, Thank you for
having me, thank you for being here. Looking before we
dive in MESSI mandates so things get to be unprocessed.
Any thoughts or opinions shared have the right to evolve, shift,

(07:56):
or change today tomorrow, ten years from now, and if
during the key keys of feels too personal or unintentionally offense,
we use the safe word football, which gives us a
chance to pivot and address accordingly.

Speaker 1 (08:07):
Does you like a podcast? Are the only podcast with
the safe word?

Speaker 2 (08:12):
I think I'm the only one that I know with
the safe word. I mean, but I think so, right,
because I'm like, you never know, when you get too spicy,
you're just like a little a little out.

Speaker 1 (08:21):
I think to me, also, it's like you totally forget
in the moment ago. What's the safe word again?

Speaker 2 (08:26):
Yeah, yeah, that's why I think. Is it sex? With Emily?
She talks about I think the safe word is like
or in general, like red or like a red because
stop remember that. But here, I like to have a
little fun. So all right, let's start with a little game.
It's called this or that, and it's kind of you
know what. I know, we're out of tour season, but

(08:46):
it's a little it's a little toy and heavy because
it's always season.

Speaker 1 (08:52):
When you're turan is always and that's just that's what
it is.

Speaker 2 (08:56):
Always soft, it's always luxurious, Okay, so this or that.
I'll give you a prompts and you'll tell me if
you want this or that. So watching TV or making out.

Speaker 1 (09:05):
It's hard to choose between the two because if I'm
watching TV, yeah, I'm really engaged.

Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah, and you don't want to know. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:14):
But if I'm making out, I'm really engaged in that. Yeah,
I enjoy both. I cannot have to be a real
break this one. So it's if I was on drink champs,
I'll take a drink.

Speaker 2 (09:23):
Okay, work work, So I guess here we'll call it
a uh that, this act, this that, this and that,
this and that. Okay, there we go oka just like
that and just like that. Okay, we'll call it just
like that. Mine is making out. I think I'll pick
over watching TV. I think today that speaks of the libido.
You know, I got a little a little up there
is a little more, a little lotder. Yeah, I'm see

(09:44):
I'm taking my what's the thing, the little the horning
root or whatever? Oh wow, okay, this or that I'm
making out or.

Speaker 1 (09:55):
Cuddling, cuddling for sure, yeah you know that.

Speaker 2 (09:59):
The see, yeah, I'm making out a cuddling. I get
hot something making out for me.

Speaker 1 (10:06):
Making that is like takes work and it's often leads
to something.

Speaker 2 (10:10):
Sure.

Speaker 1 (10:11):
So I think cuddling is just comforting.

Speaker 2 (10:14):
Yeah, it's a little warm, it's like a safety blanket. Yeah.
And you can't cuddle with.

Speaker 1 (10:17):
Everybody, no, no, you have to be safe.

Speaker 2 (10:22):
Yes, yes, Okay, cuddling or eating your favorite meal.

Speaker 1 (10:25):
You know I'm a foodie. Yeah, I really love a
good cuddle. But I'm gonna say like eating a great meal,
because that's something I think is just like that's very intimate.
Like I love having a great meal with someone I
really care about.

Speaker 2 (10:38):
Yeah. Also like eating a great meal it feels like
love one but also just like I don't know, it
activates all the senses. Yeah, like cuddling activates some sense.
But eating the meal.

Speaker 1 (10:48):
That's really good because then you guys get be like,
oh this is good. Yeah yeah yeah, and then you
feel comfortable at.

Speaker 2 (10:55):
Least the cuddling after.

Speaker 1 (10:56):
Yeah, it all comes back like I like both, that's
what's happening.

Speaker 2 (11:01):
I know. That's why it's so hard. Okay, So eating
your favorite meal or foot massage.

Speaker 1 (11:04):
And I do like a massage.

Speaker 2 (11:06):
I love a massage.

Speaker 1 (11:07):
I do like to be rubbedesh.

Speaker 2 (11:10):
These are hard hidden questions. Yeah, journalists.

Speaker 1 (11:13):
I mean, I do love food, but I also really
love massage. That's the problem with your tourists as well. No,
I know, but I think it depends on where I'm at,
Like I think I'm massage scheduled today. Yeah, so I
need that touch, that relaxing energy.

Speaker 2 (11:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:33):
And I think for me, like food, I'm very I
think of it like sex. You know, it's interesting because
it's book Mother Hunger, which I told you about reading
that there's a part where it asks you to compare
like your relationship with food to your relationship with sex.
Oh right, And so it was very revelatory because I mean,
like literally, like it's a you know, you can fill

(11:55):
it out, so you have to be active and engaged.
But I realized that with food, I'm a person that
it's not a crutch for me. It's not something that
I go to when I'm upset. I can't do it
when I'm in like distress, orf I'm sad. It's something
that I you know, I always say I don't want

(12:15):
to waste calories. So if I have a meal, I
wanted to be really enjoyable and special and well thought out,
and I think I have that same relationship to sex.
It is not something that I'm cavalier about or do
if I'm that I need to feel connected to someone,
or I need to feel seen, or I need to
feel validated, or I need it to numb something or

(12:36):
for me to forget. It's like I can't do it
if I'm in distress or if upset. And I think
some people like needed to make their problems go away,
or to feel seen or to feel loved, to feel connected,
or to escape. And to me, it's something it's a
spiritual experience. So it's something to enjoy and not to

(13:00):
to overdo. If I'm like eating all day, then I'm
just kind of like I've lost.

Speaker 2 (13:03):
The special specialists.

Speaker 1 (13:06):
Yeah, And so for me, it's like having sex every
day and all the time it feels like, well, wait
a minute, what's going on? Like what am I trying
to mask? What am I trying to for me? Not
anyone else, Yeah, for my journey, but it's for me.
It's like when I do it, I wanted to be
really special and spiritual and memorable. Yeah, And I think
that's how I feel about food. And so I never

(13:27):
thought about the two together and until that book Mother Hunger, Have.

Speaker 2 (13:29):
A Mother Hunger I started, I was I'm listening to
it ohen I got to the section I think it's
chapter two, so I'm early in about avoidant attachment. That
thing read me for film, because basically it's like avoidant attachment.
You are masquerade as needing emotional connection, but the moment
people get too close, you kind of flutter. But also

(13:52):
you pick people who do want closeness so you don't
ever have to ask for it, because if you're avoidant,
like you don't for those things, but you still need it. Yeah,
So then you pick partners who are have a different
attachment that will be more proactive about needing closeness, so
then you never have to ask for it. And I
was like, oh, that that sounds like everything sounds like

(14:15):
I've only just started, like really diving into attachment theory
and what an attachment is for sure, mate, which I believe
comes from a mother who dismisses you or something. It's
something like that.

Speaker 1 (14:26):
Yeah. The book does focus particularly has a very long title.
We don't want to butcher it, but it's about the
three things that you need to get from your mother,
which is nurturance, protection, and guidance. And so what Katha
McDaniel does is she sort of breaks down certain personality
traits you start to adopt as you become an adult
based on the things that you didn't get as a child. Yeah,

(14:48):
and it really can be really eye opening. And what
it does is it'll read you for filth, but also
it'll start helping you to understand the people around you,
your partner, folks in your community, other members of your family,
because you you start to understand, Oh, their mother might
not have given them nurturance. That's why they're contant looking
for validation. Their mother didn't give them protection. That's why
they're constantly looking for that that their mother didn't give
them guidance. That's where they seem to be floating with

(15:10):
no direction. And then it also takes you to another
generation whereas it asks you, you know, had you thinking
about what did your mother not get from her mother? Yeah,
because whatever she didn't get, she's not gonna be able
to give to you.

Speaker 2 (15:23):
Yes, it gives you that book. And I also think
about adult children of emotionally immature parents, like those books
that really grant you the empathy to We talked about
this here, like disruptive curiosity, like asking the hard questions
to interrupt patterns that allow you to live a liberated life.
And it's like those books really take the parent off

(15:46):
the pedestal and humanize them, and then also humanizes everyone
around you because we're like, oh, yeah, we all deal
with the same function.

Speaker 1 (15:53):
There's this really interesting interview with Baldwin which I'll send
to you, but he starts off by saying that there
was a moment of learning when you realize, as my
parent was not here for that sole purpose. Yeah, And
it's really, I think a really beautiful way of saying that,
right that exactly. He's like, you really like your parent
was a person before they became your parents. Yes, and

(16:16):
that is so eye opening and revelatory because you start
to realize that they are a person.

Speaker 2 (16:23):
Yeah. And but what's kind of confusing. And you know,
I'm at the you know, we're at the age where
people are having probably their second kid at this point,
but people are having a lot of children around us,
and the way that we're raised to want to have
kids and to make our purpose having kids, And then
I think what I hear a lot is and you
have the kids and you realize, well, that's not enough

(16:45):
for my purpose. And now you're kind of caught in
this having to redefine you're, if you're conscious about it,
having to redefine parenthood, which a lot of people don't
end up doing. I don't think our parents did, but
like having to be like, oh, this actually is a
enough and that's okay, I can do more things. But
I think our parents like made it the focus or
ignored it completely.

Speaker 1 (17:14):
Like I'm forty one, and so I was born in
eighty four, and my mom was born in fifty three,
and my grandmother was in the twenty. So it's like
what you're really having to look at is the world
in which they were born into. And also my grandmother
was born in Arkansas and moved to Chicago when she
was seventeen, you know, and then had three children, and

(17:34):
my mother had us in the eighties, had two children.
And so I think what your parent decides what a
parent is is based on what society tells them that
a parent is supposed to be at the time. And
to take it back to my grandmother with her mother,
which I you know, of course you don't know a
ton about because she didn't talk about her mom that much.

(17:56):
But her mom had, you know, a fair amount of
kids in the South, you know, at a time where
it was not fun to be a black family. But
there's an element of children were sort of had to
you know, to keep the house, to work the house,
to work the land, you know, and to it was
something that you know, one did. And also they were like,

(18:18):
you know, I think my grandma was like maybe one
of like eight or something like that. There were more children,
and so therefore there wasn't a lot of nurturance happening,
and there was only so much protection parents could give
their children, particularly if you're part of a marginalized community,
especially in the Southern States. So there was that, and
I think for my mother being born in Chicago in

(18:40):
the fifties, still a very interesting time in America. But
then it was sort of my grandmothers sort of took
maybe what parenting to her meant that still not a
lot of nurturance or getting to know one's child. Having
fewer children, so but.

Speaker 2 (18:57):
Still you don't know how to interrupt that still exactly.

Speaker 1 (19:00):
And then my mother had one less child than my
grandmother had. As you could see, the kids become lesser
and lesser my sister. You know, another generation only has
one child. It is not that interesting. You know, people have
fewer and fewer kids because of sort of education or
understanding and just sort of what one actually has the
capacity to deal with. Yes, and I think, you know,

(19:25):
I think sometimes for my parents' generation, your parents generation,
it was more about you should have kids. Yes, I
don't know necessarily a want or desire, but it's something
you should do. It's what completes you, especially as a woman,
right exactly, It's something that you should do. And then
you know, of course, my mother got divorced when I
was two, and so she has a four year old

(19:46):
and a two year old. And then we moved back
into my grandmother's home, and now my grandmother has a
different sense of what nurturing or raising her children looks like.
Other times you have grandparents who are better parents to
their grandchildren than they were to their own children. Creative
resentment within that adult child watching their parent be a
better parent to their children than they were to them.

(20:08):
But I think, you know, for my sister and I,
we were taken care of in terms of making sure
we had enough food to eat, clothes in our backs,
and a place to live. I don't know how much
nurturance or getting to know one was happening. And I
think that's the thing that our parents sort of didn't
know how to do, or was it sort of a requirement.
And I think now people our age are looking at

(20:31):
their children. Who knows. I don't want to make a
sweeping statement, but there's an idea of who are you?
Because the purpose is more to bring forth the child,
not that the child becomes your purpose.

Speaker 2 (20:45):
Okay, you came to prea change you.

Speaker 1 (20:47):
Okay, you know the purpose of that child is not
to take care of you an old age, yes, because
if the love is pure, there was no expectation. But
yet I think our parents still have expectations on us
to be there as adults, even when they did not
bond with us as children. And so I think that's
something that I grapple with and saying, you did not
get to know me as a child, but yet want

(21:09):
to have me in your life now that I'm an
adult and we don't know each othership right, But there's
this idea that because you are my child again that
word possessive. I do not belong to my mother. I
belong to myself. And that is where people always say
when you have children, they are like your heart walking

(21:31):
around in human form. And the thing is, your children
are destined to break your heart.

Speaker 2 (21:37):
Because you have an idea of ideal of what they
should be or what you want them to be.

Speaker 1 (21:40):
You become attached to an idea of what relationship you
will have with this child when they become an adult.
And what happens is if that idea of that dream,
if that fantasy doesn't come true, then there is a misery, yes,
and now that child is trying to live up to
that fantasy, trying to be what you want me to be,

(22:01):
trying to be close to you, know, I having no
desire to be. Yeah, you want me to be something
for you rather than just myself.

Speaker 2 (22:08):
Well, one, I want to talk about the grandparents being
a better parent because I do feel that I was
the baby and my grandmother, grandmother moved, was the first
one from the family to move to America, and so
like everyone in our family that is in America, my
mom's generation came through my grandmother's house and so all
the cousins and everyone kind of like know that home.

(22:29):
We grew up in the matron Yes, but I also
grew up hearing that she was a tough matriarch, which
makes sense. She's a black woman in America, immigrant, like
you know, got all these people kids coming through like
so she but with me, she was softer, and I
think maybe rewriting the hardness that she might have parented

(22:51):
like my mother with and then. Though no one's ever
said this, I think I felt the animosity. I felt
the difference, and I felt whatever tension they might have had.
I've never talked about this, but there was a period
of time where my mom moved to Manhattan, so I
lived in Queen's and my mom moved to Manhattan from

(23:12):
like age seven to like nine, and I stayed in
Queens with my grandmother. My mother was literally, you know,
a thirty minute forty minute drive away, and I went
to school and it was normalized to me until maybe
like a couple months ago, when I said out loud
and somebody was like huh.

Speaker 1 (23:28):
The mom was like, I'm gonna go live my life.
Yeah yeah, I mean my mom would drop me off
at my grandmother's house. To the one point I remember
crying to my mom saying, you leave me there, Yes,
you left me. You've abandoned me in a way.

Speaker 2 (23:39):
But for them, I think it was well, you're fed,
you're clothed, you are taken care.

Speaker 1 (23:44):
Of, therefore you should be happy.

Speaker 2 (23:46):
Exactly, But there's not the nurturing. That nurturing and taken
care of are not the same.

Speaker 1 (23:51):
Another word I like to use, I I put it
in the play curiosity. There's a lack of curiosity about
the child in terms of who they are. Yes, And
I think that because we are a generation where we
want our parents to respect our identity. And I think
our parents feel as though what identity because they never

(24:14):
mind correct but also they never really got a chance
to explore theirs.

Speaker 2 (24:18):
Yes, so now you get to because of their sacrifices.

Speaker 1 (24:22):
And also it means that we now are complete alien
to each other because I'm expressing my identity in so
many different ways. Yes, and that looks foreign to our mothers.

Speaker 2 (24:33):
Yeah, you know which now that you're saying that, Like,
I think about that one to one with queer some
queer elders that I've come up against, and even like
my generation with the younger generation, right, like we talk
about I came out in my like at twenty twenty one,
I came out, which at the time though early we.

Speaker 1 (24:51):
Talked about this, Yeah, twenties like that's kind of young.

Speaker 2 (24:54):
Yeah yeah, but like now, like twenties feels kind of
like kids are old.

Speaker 1 (24:58):
Now, it feels like old in fifth grade.

Speaker 2 (25:00):
Yeah, right, And so like there is I was just
talking to a friend where it's like, I'm so happy
that there's a freedom that the younger generation has, but
there's also an animosity that I didn't have that and
I felt that from older queers. Sometimes we're like we're
expressing ourselves and able to live off of their sacrifices.
But there's so there might be a happiness, but there's
also an animosity or resentment.

Speaker 1 (25:22):
Resentment, yeah, because also it's like you have certain older
queers I would say, I'll say sixties seventy, like maybe
somebody argue fifties that I do get a little tripped up.
But non binary, you know, yeah, pan sexual, Yeah, new terms,
you know what I mean, Like gay, straight, you know,
top bottom, you know what I mean, And that's it,

(25:43):
and like okay, you know y'all, like you know, it's
a butch femine, like it was still trapped in heter
normative normative that hetero like ideal and so I think
and for us the forties, some things the younger generation
and can look at the Thanksgiving episode and Philip Foreign
and they're sort of like coming out, what's that? Yeah,

(26:04):
why do you have to what is coming out?

Speaker 2 (26:06):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (26:07):
You know and so and for me we're like, oh,
that's all right. Path she's a big deal. You tell
your mom and you're gay, and they're like, well, my
mom knew I was gay since I was six, and
our things like, well I was very visibly queer my
whole life, but my mother did not, but she was
registered that as queer. So I still had to say hey,
you know, and that's why I made light of it.
And Thanksgiving episode because of like how I dressed all

(26:29):
the time, how I like expressed myself. And still there's
this like what.

Speaker 2 (26:34):
Do you mean you gay? You know, because I had
that too.

Speaker 1 (26:36):
They're looking at me but not looking they're not looking
at you.

Speaker 2 (26:39):
Yes, they're seeing you. I had that too, which like
if you look at young photos of me, like it's
like why did I And when I came out, my
mom was like like fully flabbergasted, of course, I mean,
while everybody around clocked it. Yeah, the same parent like
doesn't see it doesn't see you.

Speaker 1 (26:57):
It's it's a form of not being seen.

Speaker 2 (26:59):
And then when you express yourself, this is one to
one queerness and parents or queer elders in our parents,
is that like, Oh, now I'm watching you express yourself
and be yourself and explore a version of yourself that
I didn't necessarily get to explore. Not that I wanted
to be, not that the parent wants to be queer,
but like the freedom, the freedoms to identify yourself, to

(27:20):
own who you are, to be who you are, and
they didn't necessarily know that they could do that, they
didn't have the curiosity.

Speaker 1 (27:26):
Right, And I think it's so interesting because everything is
always changing, everything is impermanent, and I love the moment
in Paris is Burning Jenny Livingston's beautiful documentary That is
Our Inheritance. Dorian talks about how balls used to be
feathers and headdresses and you know it was very only

(27:48):
really only certain folks could participate. And then she says,
you know, now you got all these categories. I can't
stay awake for because and it's this element of like
because now everyone gets to complay, right, you know, everyone
gets to walk, and that in and Dorian being an
elder and being someone who was at the balls in
the beginning, somebody was like, somebody would know what a

(28:09):
ball looked like if it hit him, you know, because
a ball used to look different, and then it kind
of shifted, and then it shifts again. And now ball
culture has never gone away, but it looks somewhat different
than it did when it first began. And in some
ways you can either be upset about that and be frustrated,

(28:29):
or you can lean in and embrace it.

Speaker 2 (28:32):
I think that that's such a and that's such a choice,
right because I feel like if you're not conscious, you
become resentful and angry, and that you have to make
a choice to say. My friend just said this to me.
It's an Octavia Butler quote. God has changed, right, just
like if you will. And when we talk about God here,
for me, God is black, transform but like God, energy, universe,
whatever it is for you. But the understanding that change

(28:54):
is divine absolutely, And so when you see a shift,
even if it's an opportunity you didn't have, I think
being inspired for it to liberate you wherever you are
in that moment, as opposed to wishing you had their
their version of literation.

Speaker 1 (29:09):
I mean it's it's a play on make America great again. Yeah,
you know, was saying, what is this, like what hold on?
This is going right there? Like let's go back? No, no,
but but it's almost like you can feel that that
resistance to change.

Speaker 2 (29:25):
Yes, And the.

Speaker 1 (29:26):
Thing is is like that is that is going against
the law of nature. It's almost saying west summer comes
to an end. It's as if no, I don't want
the leaves to fall.

Speaker 2 (29:36):
Yeah, I still warm.

Speaker 1 (29:40):
And what what nature reminds us of is that queerness
is everywhere and nothing is permanent.

Speaker 2 (29:47):
Yeah. How do you, I think, begin to make peace
with that? Because I think, you know, people listening or
to this podcast particularly want to find that change or
want to be open to change in liberation. Everyone's in
their their particular part in their journey. But for those
who are at the beginning of their healing journey or

(30:09):
at the beginning of their you know, liberation journey, how
do you get comfortable with the idea of change when
most of you're also depending where you are, like if
your forties fifties doing this, like you've had a certain
way of living a certain system that's been stuck, and
how do you break open so that you get comfortable
with change? Because change is uncomfortable, absolutely, you know, So
how do you get how do you start to make

(30:31):
it feel softer or more.

Speaker 1 (30:33):
Comfortable or you know, it's so interesting situtorian way of
looking at it? You know, how do I feel better about?
That's not fun? And I think for me, I really
try to practice the word acceptance, and I think there's
something about that I try to live by is that
we must accept the reality as it is, not as
we wish it to be. Because the first step to

(30:55):
battling alcoholism is acknowledging the fact that you're an alcoholic,
so I think, and then once you acknowledge it, once
you face it, then you can bear it and then
maybe you can change it. And so I think ultimately,
once you name it. So I think it's not about
I think it's about not necessarily looking for comfort, because

(31:20):
if that's what you want, then you're going to be disappointed.
So I think the hope is to know that the
is to observe, be aware and accept the discomfort and
know that it is impermanent. And some people may say
walk through it. I would say, sit in it.

Speaker 2 (31:40):
That's very different. Yeah, it's a very different way to sit.

Speaker 1 (31:44):
Yes, I'd rather you sit in it and let the hurt,
the pain, the sadness, the feeling of failure wash over
you and and wear it like a blanket. But do
not I try to be there forever and remember that

(32:06):
what you're feeling is not forever. Yeah, And eventually, once
you embrace it and you sit in and you own
it for however long that you need to, you will
find eventually, just like the seasons, there will be a
shift and things will start to change bloom, and then
you'll then be able to pick it up and walk.

Speaker 2 (32:32):
I was in therapy yesterday and we were talking about
a relationship and my therapist was clocking that I was
judging how I was feeling because there's you know, I
would say, I'm a recovering perfectionist, and so there's a
desire for it to how do I do this right?
How do I grieve this thing correctly?

Speaker 1 (32:48):
You know, which is like define right literally define correctly?

Speaker 2 (32:52):
Yes, what is that? And so her advice was to
sit in the gray, to not know. And I always
talk about that, asking questions and not knowing in such
a beautiful space, but taking my own advice or you know,
taking my therapist's advice of like sitting in the thing
and just letting the feelings be what they are without
them needing to be something else right, without it, without

(33:15):
you needing to put your stamp and what the change is, right,
just kind of let the change take place and knowing
that certain points of that change will suck, just like
it's gonna fucking suck. And I guess the best thing
you can do when it sucks is know who your
resources are or what your resources are, not necessarily to

(33:36):
make it softer, but to not feel alone.

Speaker 1 (33:40):
Right, And also I would say to not necessarily look
for the lesson per se, Yeah, but just allow it
to teach you something about yourself, but not say what
am I supposed to get from this? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (33:53):
That I feel like that what am I supposed to
get from this is something we do to fix to control.
And it's like the lesson will come, it's not going today.

Speaker 1 (34:02):
I'm not gonna make you feel bad, literally, like what
we are supposed to break your patterns? That's really and
then you have to look at the pattern itself. And
then to me, you get your patterns from your parents. Yes,
so it forces you to look at your parents. And
I think also, which is also a generational thing. I
think we are Yes, you don't want to make sweeping statements.

(34:23):
I mean, we happen to be in our forties and
we look at our parents a certain way. We're also
queer identifying, so there's also a different relationship between oftentimes
queer folks and their parents more often than not. But
I think there's an idea of people have been taught
that's why. But this in beauty is that the children
of the other generations say, we are supposed to honor

(34:43):
thy mother and thy father, And so that is generational.
This idea that I cannot confront my parents, I am
here to honor them, to say that they have done
something wrong, makes me not a.

Speaker 2 (34:57):
Good child, disrespectful.

Speaker 1 (34:59):
Yeah, And so what happens is we wind up in
these patterns we can't break from because we can't confront.

Speaker 2 (35:07):
The source, we can't seek the truth, we can't.

Speaker 1 (35:10):
Speak the truth. And if you can say to your parent, hey,
I didn't get the right nurturance from you. It's not
your fault, but I just want to say that out loud,
so we can just at least confront it. And I
don't even know if it's like because because I think
some people look into their parents to give them answers.
And the thing is, I can't look to the parent
for answers, but rather to look to them to say,

(35:32):
you are my source, and there were some things I
didn't get from you, to no fault of your own,
and it's because of that I'm now looking for those
things in ways that aren't healthy for me, and I
want to stop doing that. And I think the best
way for me to do that is just to say
it out loud, is to say the thing to you

(35:53):
so that you know whether it's for their own knowledge,
but it's also for your own liberation, right, And so
I think people kind of get the word like forgiveness
and fault, and you know parents saying Okay, well I'm sorry,
let's be okay. Now, it's really not about that, But
it's really it's more about I just want to call
it what it is so that way I can be

(36:16):
more aware in my life moving forward.

Speaker 2 (36:19):
I'm thinking about when you said that, I'm thinking about,
like the conversations I've had with my mother over the
last fifteen years of estrangement, a couple conversations or text
messages and thinking about what I wish you, how I
wish you would have responded when I brought up the
ways in which I was hurt, because what I only
all I ever received back was kind of like, I'm

(36:40):
sorry if I hurt you, which always is not an apology,
not an apology or just like very surface but never
able to own the thing. And so I think thinking
if you're a parent listening and a child has confronted you, like,
what is the what is the best way to respond?
I think it's easy for us to get defense when

(37:00):
a person says this thing hurt me. But I think
if a person is saying this thing hurts me, it's
because they love you and they want to be in
relationship with you. And this is this this honesty allows
you to have a true relationship to see each other.
And so is there a way for a parent to
like and this is about anything for us to lay

(37:22):
our ego down, or how do we lay our ego
down and say I see you and I hear you,
and I will atone for this or you know that
wasn't my intention, but I understand it's the impact and
how can I What do you need from me? I
think that's what I always wish my mother would say.
I hear you, I understand, I apologize. Now what do

(37:46):
you need from me to make this better? To me
would be the because you know you can't go back.

Speaker 1 (37:51):
No past is gone, the past doesn't exist.

Speaker 2 (37:54):
But there is, but there is a possibility for a future.
But I think sometimes we cut ourselves off from the
future because if you go.

Speaker 1 (38:02):
Well, also out of fear, because what in essence, I
think a parent say, maybe I don't want to say, should,
but I think if they are willing to do, is
to confront their own parent. It's about your mother looking
at her childhood and asking from that matriarch that toughness,

(38:24):
that lack of warmth, that lack of nurturance, that all
speaks to how she parented you. And your mother's generation
has been told that their parents can do no wrong,
that their parents cannot be flawed, that their parents cannot
be people. So the fact that we are confronting our
parents and saying, hey, I didn't get this from you,

(38:45):
or this didn't work for me, Therefore I no longer
want to be in community with you. For them it's
foreign because they're like, well, I didn't get a lot
of stuff from my mom, but I still showed up
and it didn't matter. And what we're saying is exactly,
wasn't healthy.

Speaker 2 (39:01):
I wasn't healthy. Just because it happened doesn't mean we
should continue the cycle exactly. It worked, exactly, and that
there is a way to confront for our parents, to
confront their parents, even if they like, my grandmother's here,
my grandma's no longer hear either.

Speaker 1 (39:15):
Yeah, but like I, which really makes it hard for
them to kind of go back. And because that's the other
thing people made, like my father is no longer earthside
I suddenly when I was fourteen, and there may be
still things that I need to work through with him
that I can work through even though he is not here. Yes,
And I think that that is something that we have

(39:36):
to understand, is that even though a parent isn't here
to be in conversation with you, that doesn't matter. Because
what my therapist is really good about is saying, don't
go to someone needing a response for you to heal.

Speaker 2 (39:49):
Oh, yeah, because your healing is based on their response
and their response, Yeah, you are at their mercy, You're fucked. Yeah,
and that was really big.

Speaker 1 (40:02):
He was just like, their response is not relevant here.
This is for your liberation. For you to say the
thing to the person. How they respond is not relevant.
It's not relevant to you. And I think a lot
of people are still looking and waiting and wishing for responses,

(40:22):
for answers yes that they are not getting because maybe
the person you're talking to is not as evolved or
emotionally intelligent or as mostly mature as you are. So
it's a business this interesting in terms of like meeting
people where they're at. I don't necessarily know if I
subscribe to that. If someone else does, that's totally fair.
I think to me, is I have to meet you

(40:44):
where I'm at.

Speaker 2 (40:46):
That's far more powerful.

Speaker 1 (40:47):
Because if I'm trying to you know, now, make it,
because if I meet you where you're at, then I'm
going to try to bend and move and shrink myself
so that way you can be comfortable. So I'm going
to meet you where I'm at. And if that's something
that's a little bit too much for you, that's also
fair and okay, But then that means we are not

(41:09):
really meant to be in community.

Speaker 2 (41:11):
We're in this in this moment.

Speaker 1 (41:14):
And and by the way, that's okay, yes, because I
think some people feel like, well, I must be in
community with this person because they are the reason for
my existence.

Speaker 2 (41:22):
That's how we're indoctrinated, because you know they've given birth
to us, where they know they raised us.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
It's again putting expectations on love. Yes, it's like saying
because I fed you, because I clothed you, because I,
you know, make sure you had somewhere to live, because
I did all the things a parent are supposed to do.
In my mind, you owe me. That's friendship as an adult.
You owe me to take care of me when I
become an elder. And the truth is love with expectation

(41:51):
is not love.

Speaker 2 (41:52):
Yeah, it's not. I think that was one of the
hardest parts about my relationship mother, U dissolved, dissolving like
it's a business. That's a fair word. Yeah. It was
the learning about what unconditional love is, and that unconditional
love has no expectations, that loves you where you are.
But that conditional love, even if your parents say it's unconditional,
if there are expectations on it, it's not unconditional.

Speaker 1 (42:15):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (42:16):
They expect you to be a certain way, act a
certain way, do a certain thing because they did X,
Y and Z for you. Then that there are conditions.
That's literally what it is. Unconditional love says, whatever the
fuck you want to be and who you want to be.
I'm here and I love you and I support you,
and there. I think that maybe it's a generational thing
or just a person thing, like not understanding that love

(42:37):
does not give you rights to a person, doesn't give
you ownership over a person.

Speaker 1 (42:42):
And I would also add, you know, I'm a person
that is no longer a believer in blood. Yeah, And
I think blood relationships are the laziest kind.

Speaker 2 (42:52):
They're the grandfathered in.

Speaker 1 (42:54):
There's an entitlement, there's an expectation.

Speaker 2 (42:56):
You're not asking questions, and I think that you should
ask questions. If your blood the same questions you ask
of your community, community friends, your blood shouldn't be held
to the same I believe to the same standards.

Speaker 1 (43:09):
And you and I both have friends that are sick
to their stomach when they go home for Thanksgiving, sick
to their stomach when they go home for the holidays,
and all you got to do is ask them why
are you putting yourself through this if you don't want
to go? And their response is often some sort of indoctrination,
some sort of I have to or I should, or

(43:29):
I didn't want my mother to be alone, and I
think you know. And there are some people who will say, like,
my mother lives alone and has no real community, and
I didn't want her to be alone with the holidays.
That is understandable as a human being. But the question becomes,
why does your mother not have any community?

Speaker 2 (43:48):
Why is your question?

Speaker 1 (43:51):
Why is there no one else around? Why is your
mother's social life your responsibility? And that's the question that
your mother may be afraid to ask herself yes.

Speaker 2 (44:01):
And you're also afraid to ask I'm sure.

Speaker 1 (44:03):
Yeah, yeah, because if you weren't here, you got hit
by a bus tomorrow?

Speaker 2 (44:07):
Right?

Speaker 1 (44:07):
Will your mother be alone for Christmas? And the question
becomes whose responsibility is that? If I'm hitting the age
of seventy five eighty ninety and there's no one around.

Speaker 2 (44:20):
Yeah, then I'm curious about whatever? What how have I
been living for the last seventy something years that I
now have no community?

Speaker 1 (44:28):
And I'm demanding my adult children be my community because
I birthed them, not because I bonded with them.

Speaker 2 (44:37):
Birthing and bonding are not the same.

Speaker 1 (44:40):
They are not. Yeah, and a lot of us are
doing things for people because they birthed us.

Speaker 2 (44:49):
Yes, not because we're bonded to them.

Speaker 1 (44:50):
We are not bonded with them. Yeah, And that's why
you feel sick to your stomach when you go home.

Speaker 2 (45:03):
I felt a lot of judgment. I mean, and I
received a lot of judgment when I first stopped talking
to my mother. I definitely received a lot of judgment.
And it was so curious. I watched a video. It
was like, if you see people separating themselves from their parents,
the question is always why are you not talking to
your mom? Why you're not talking to your dad? But

(45:24):
never what did the family do to make the child,
the adult child not want to be a relationship? Like,
that's never the question. No one is ever considering, not known.
But you know, rarely are we ever considering, Oh, it
was your family a safe place to be?

Speaker 1 (45:40):
What happened?

Speaker 2 (45:41):
What happened? Because we listen, We grew up in the
same sitcoms like I wanted the Carl Winslow, the Harriet
wins Love. I want like I wanted the big things
give like I I wanted that. That's what I desire.
I desire to, you know, get older and bond of
my mother and hang out and go shopping like that.

(46:01):
So it's not that I didn't want that, it's that
like something made it and made us incapable of having that,
but no one ever, but I get judged or or
I have been judged for setting that boundary or for
pulling away, as opposed to somebody saying, wait, what happened
in that space that that allows you to not have
that bond?

Speaker 1 (46:21):
I mean my question is would you hang out with
your mother if she wasn't your mother.

Speaker 2 (46:25):
A version, an older version, sorry, a previous version of her.
I definitely would have, right, like before all this went down,
there's a version of my mother that I which is
why some of this has been painful. Is it like
there is a version of my mother outside version. Yeah, yeah,
before you were before I was like not even here yet,
or like super young, like a version of how she

(46:45):
was as an artist and a creative, exact person. I
was like you it was her one woman show, I
said to Lena.

Speaker 1 (46:52):
And I was floored.

Speaker 2 (46:53):
Florid, It's like an HBO special from the nineties.

Speaker 1 (46:56):
I was in Mexico like watching like Sitting Voice, I
was wanted.

Speaker 2 (47:00):
On YouTube, and I was like, oh my god, this
is why I'm who I am, because that version of
my mother was funny and open hearted and was tackling
trans writes and body positivity and HIV.

Speaker 1 (47:12):
She was saying, they can find it.

Speaker 2 (47:15):
Yeah, to the top, top top. You'll be like, oh,
that's Brandon. But this version of her, which you know now,
which is no shade to religion, but is very born
again and very strict, strict and tough, and uh, a
lot of certainty, a lot of certainty, a lot of judgment.
Is like, oh no, I would. I would not be

(47:37):
friends with you actually, which is why I think I
feel h validated in my indicated yes, because I'm like, oh, yeah,
I actually if I think about you not as my mother,
not as a parent, I think about you as a person,
you make me nervous, like you're not You're not. I
don't feel safe here, and so why would I put

(47:59):
my self I kept saying this in early on. I
was like, why would I keep putting myself in a
lion's den when I know I'm gonna get eaten. Why
would I keep, you know, diving in front of a
bullet that I know she's gonna shoot. That doesn't make
sense to me, right, And so that was my you know,
amidst you know, the judgment of like why aren't you
talk to your mothers like I'm not going into the

(48:20):
lion's den like you can't.

Speaker 1 (48:22):
And for some and I think this is something I
wanted to get across in the Thanksgiving episode, is that
religion is not a factor and the disconnect for me,
it's more of a lack of passion or identity or
desire to find out who oneself and so there and
I am all of that. I'm constantly evolving trying to

(48:44):
understand myself. And some people could argue, oh, well, there's
a privilege in getting to travel and have therapy and
go on silent retreat or things like that, so of
course you need to know yourself. But I think maybe
the generation, our parents' generation and doesn't necessarily understand that,
or doesn't really get it, or it feels like it's
a little selfish to to indulge oneself with self care

(49:08):
and to read a book about you know what you
didn't get from your mother. It just feels foreign. But
the truth is is that I want to be in
community with people like that. And that's not necessarily people
who are privileged with money, I think, because a person
could be barely making their rent but still be looking
to understand themselves.

Speaker 2 (49:28):
It's the curiosity.

Speaker 1 (49:29):
It's the curiosity that word comes again. I want to
be around people who are curious about themselves. And I
think that's why there's a bit of a lack of
connection for me and my mom, because I just don't.
I think she doesn't. She didn't know how to be
curious about me. Therefore she doesn't know how to be
curious about herself. Therefore there's a lack of connection.

Speaker 2 (49:43):
That I think you're bothered down to my mother as well.
There's a not curiosity in knowing who I am or
learning about who I am. Correct, it's there's already a certainty.
There's already a like, this is what Jesus says. And
again there's believe whatever you want to believe, as long
as hurt yourself about but there's a very like this
is how you're supposed to be, that's how youre supposed
to act, and so there's no like even I once.

(50:07):
I don't think it's totally about this, but like I
sent her my book because I was like, oh, I
was like, you know, we talk about her Nette, thank you.
I was like, you know, I want to send it
to her and so she can maybe get an understanding
of who I am. There's never any response about that book.
We've talked, but there was never any response about receiving
the book or I don't know if she read the book.
But I was like, oh, there's not There's not a curiosity, desire, desire,

(50:32):
or even a desire to know why do we don't talk? Right?

Speaker 1 (50:35):
And I think I think for again on my end
is a desire to have a relationship because there's an
embarrassment when there isn't one yes that she doesn't want
to tell people ain't talking. Somebody would go, well why not?
And then there's like you don't want to own well

(50:55):
because when she was growing up I didn't get to
know her. Really, that's not it's going to come out
of well because she's tripping.

Speaker 2 (51:04):
That's literally I'm positive of what's being said that I'm crazy.

Speaker 1 (51:07):
I'm just you know, being weird and so and strange
literally and so. But again, this is why it is
important that we do not put value in other people's
narratives that they have around us, because it means you
have no desire to really validate my experience, which is

(51:29):
another reason why we are not in relationship.

Speaker 2 (51:31):
Yeah, it's that searching for abvs accepting splowing validation outside
of yourself and needing to lay that to rest and
give it to yourself.

Speaker 1 (51:42):
Yeah. So you don't want to be close to me,
You just want to.

Speaker 2 (51:44):
Say you are Yeah. Yeah, yeah, And that.

Speaker 1 (51:47):
Takes work to actually have. You have to get to
know someone to accept them and.

Speaker 2 (51:52):
Learn about the parts of them that you don't understand,
because it's a generational difference.

Speaker 1 (51:56):
Which takes a lot of words work.

Speaker 2 (51:58):
But there is a difference between moody who is eager
to do that or wants to do that, and somebody
who doesn't. And you can smell it.

Speaker 1 (52:04):
Yeah, because it's like we should go have lung, we
should be on the phone, we should talk once a week,
like but what are we talking?

Speaker 2 (52:09):
Should we should?

Speaker 1 (52:09):
We exactly where it comes up versus like I want,
I want to, I desire to. There isn't any on
my end, you know, because I'm just sort of I
want to be excited before coming here, on the way here,
or like if you're coming to my house and hanging out,
there's a oh, there's an excitement. Yes, I'm going to
see Brandon today. We're gonna talk, we're gonna vibe. And

(52:30):
I require that.

Speaker 2 (52:34):
In every relationship asolutely.

Speaker 1 (52:36):
And if I'm not excited, if I'm not looking forward,
I'm not coming.

Speaker 2 (52:42):
I that is that has changed my life drastically. That
guardrail of being like, listen, if it's paying me, it's work,
that's one thing. But if it's my personal time and
I don't find myself excited. There's a period of time
where I found myself at a dinner, Like my husband
can tell you, like every fucking night, I was at
a dinner and I was exhausted, but I was like

(53:04):
I was just saying, yes, do you feel like, oh, yeah, yeah,
I'll go, I'll go go. And I got to a
point where it was like, I have no time one
for the people that I really actually am excited about.
I'm too tired by the time I get to see them,
And like, what is all this yesing for? There's like
a there's a looking for a validation, there's acceptance and
I really had to go. If I'm not excited, then

(53:26):
it doesn't mean you're a bad person. No, it just
means that, like, this isn't the vibe, and I don't
need to force it into a vibe. In fact, then
I can take that energy and actually invest it in
the people that I do feel eager and excited about,
and then our bonds get stronger and tighter, and then
your community built that way. And that's a different way
to go about it.

Speaker 1 (53:46):
I think a lot of people are doing what you
used to do. I think maybe I had a version
of it as well, where it was like, if somebody
invites you, you say yes, yes because you also don't
want them to stop invited.

Speaker 2 (53:55):
Yes, because you want to be invited.

Speaker 1 (53:57):
But the truth is is like you know, we're not
saying we don't want you alone at seventy five or whatever,
But it's really about choosing those people that see the
light in.

Speaker 2 (54:06):
You, oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:10):
And that you see the light in them.

Speaker 2 (54:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:13):
And And what's difficult is usually what I find when
people fall away in my life where I kind of
lose interest in continuing to be in community are often
people that aren't necessarily evolving.

Speaker 2 (54:27):
They're not curious anymore.

Speaker 1 (54:28):
Yeah, or maybe it may not be at the same pace,
and that's also okay. That's why I think we definitely
get a trip up where people feel they take it
personally or they're doing something wrong. And my thing is,
if you want to if you're one of those people
that says take me or leave me, I'm going to
leave you where you stand. But if you're but but
it's not out of judgment. It's saying you have a

(54:49):
right to say I don't want to change my stripes.

Speaker 2 (54:51):
You have an absolutely right to say that.

Speaker 1 (54:53):
And I want And I think that's what we I
hope as a nation can start to do is say
you are right and whatever it is you decide, Yeah,
but I have a right to decide if I want
to be in community with you, yes, yes, And if
you are a person that isn't really evolving, isn't trying
to understand yourself in a new way, or isn't trying

(55:16):
to shift things so you can continue to grow, I
have a right to say I don't really desire to
be in community with you.

Speaker 2 (55:23):
And there's so much power and eventually softness, I think,
and healing in that and taking that back and being
able to say I get to choose whom in community
with absolutely and I don't. And I think what's also
great that people forget is I don't have to fight you.

Speaker 1 (55:39):
It doesn't have to be.

Speaker 2 (55:40):
In anger, it doesn't have to be in judgment. Does
It just literally is an acceptance to go back to
what you've said at the top. It's an acceptance, right,
acceptance that like, we want to be on two different planes,
and that's okay. I'm not saying I'm further than you
or whatever, like this isn't working, and so we can
move to different spaces. I mean you might find each
other again. I mean that happens all the time, you
find right people again in life and things.

Speaker 1 (56:02):
But it's like, what's so sad to me is seeing
families force themselves to be in community with each other.
You know, we have there's how many you know Thanksgiving
episodes and television we got to see where there's the
very dysfunctional relationships have another table. And the truth is
it's because you all are there out of obligation, not

(56:22):
out of your decision. It's not a decision to be there.
You're not deciding to be there. You're told you have to.

Speaker 2 (56:29):
Be told you have to be and embarrassed if you're
not there because of what it will look like.

Speaker 1 (56:34):
Oh yeah, on both sides and the minute like, that's
what a lot of queer folks we wear freedom like
a leather jacket, because we are saying, first of all,
we create our own families. We've adopted that word for
ourselves because oftentimes our blood families don't see us, and

(56:54):
people that are not related to us at all see
us more clearly than God themselves.

Speaker 2 (57:01):
And when you feel that, you have to follow it absolutely.
I think that for anyone who's trying to build community.
I always say, and we say this here too, like
when you leave, you should feel good.

Speaker 1 (57:12):
Absolutely, should feel full. You should feel invigorated, not exhausted
blood dry.

Speaker 2 (57:16):
Yeah, if you feel exhausted, blood dry, you feel nervous.
Your nervous system.

Speaker 1 (57:20):
Is People be taking gummies for going up saying, having
to smoke a joint, they go home, like, why do
you think there's a walk? Everything's giving right out of
here and taking a joint and get away from these people.
And my thing is if you have to do that,
then you should ask yourself why are you there in
the first place.

Speaker 2 (57:39):
Yeah, Lena, thank you for being.

Speaker 1 (57:41):
Here, Thank you for having me love you too.

Speaker 2 (57:56):
Well. You know we are hose here, but hose with heart.
So before we part way, let me speak to yours first.
Let me do a little homekeeping, which is, if you
enjoyed that conversation and you're enjoying the conversations that we're
having here on the pod, please do my favorite rate
review and subscribe. It helps us grow the podcast and
advocate for a bigger and even messier season two. So

(58:19):
thank you, thank you, thank you for that. Now back
to what me and Lena were talking about. First of all,
she won the game. I know, I know we went
right into the conversation, but she did win that game,
and you know what, she went my unconditional love. Okay.
I really loved when Lena was talking about the expectation
to take care of or have relationships with parents as
adults when they never bonded with you as a child.

(58:41):
I think that, you know, this idea of taking care
of versus like nurturing. You know, my generation of parents,
my mom and her generation, you know, I think it
was really about making sure that there were clothes on
your back and that you had food, teat and the
roof over your head, and as long as this thing,
somebody picked you up, whether it was them or somebody else,
like that you were picked up from school relatively on time.

(59:04):
That was like, you're doing good, And that's a lot.
That is a lot. And I don't want to downplay
how much it is to sustain that, but I but
that not being enough to bond with the child. Right.
Even later in the conversation, we talk about the difference
between birthing a child and bonding with a child. And
so it is curious that societally we expect that if

(59:27):
you've been taken care of, if you've been provided all
those things, then as an adult, you should be best
friends with your parents. But how where does that come from? Right?
If a relationship hasn't been nurtured, If a friendship hasn't
been nurtured inside of the parent child relationship, then why

(59:49):
would that exist? And you know this this might also
stem from I don't know if your parents were like this,
but like I am one of your little friends, right,
Like I agree that, like there's there is a role
that a parent takes on, which might mean that they
are not How do I say this? I think that
there's a feeling that like, your friends will approve of

(01:00:10):
everything you do. But I think what I've learned in
my adulthood is that real good friends do not approve
of everything you do. They approve of the things that
you're doing well, they support you and the things that
you want to do. But if you want some function,
your friends are going to tell you want some function.
But when parents say I want to get little friends,
I think it's because, especially growing up, your friends you know,
co sign everything you do and your parent has to

(01:00:31):
be like, no, no, actually you can't do that. Actually you
know you have to be home by this time. But
I still think that there is a I think that
a true friendship allows you to call your child out
on their function while also being a safe space for
them to come to. So even as a parent, though
you might be having to put up guardrails, it doesn't
mean that you can't be a friend to your child.

(01:00:54):
And I think it's one of the parts of the
former relationship that I have with my mother that I
really value was that she really was a friend. She
was mom, don't get it twisted. She'd give me a
look and I knew, stop what you doing. You know,
she called me from downstairs, I need to come down immediately,
you know, and handle the remote control or whatever the
fuck it was. But there was a friendship.

Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
There was.

Speaker 2 (01:01:16):
There was, for a period of time, a curiosity about
who I was. And I think that's really what a
friendship is, right, You're you're curious about the person. You're
not always trying to tell them how to live their life.
And maybe parents, right are supposed to tell you certain things,
or maybe that's what we say parents are supposed to do,
but I actually think parents are just really supposed to

(01:01:38):
be guides. You know. My mentor, Ellen Barber, who I love,
was my writing mentor, used to say, I don't know
more than you have just been here a little longer.
It was how she would always say, I've just been
here a little longer, and so let me just impart
some words of wisdom, because because I've just done a
couple more things than you have doesn't mean that I

(01:01:58):
know better than you. I think that I don't have
a kid, but my feeling of how I would love
to be parented, especially in my adulthood, but as a
kid as well, is to be trusted, you know, like
to be guardrails, right, Like, you know, you got to
be there to catch me, but to also like let
me figure some shit out and support me in figuring

(01:02:21):
that out. I think that's part of being a great
parent is when your child fucks up, it's not I
told you so, but it's like I got you the
way that friends do, right, Like I don't think when
if I got my friend goes, I told you so,
my friend goes. I got you. What do you need?
I love you? Even if I give you advice and
you went the opposite way, I got you. I love you.

(01:02:41):
What do you need? So yes, knowing there's a difference
between taking care of and nurturing. If you are hopeful
to have a relationship with your child in adulthood, it
doesn't that doesn't just happen. Ooh if this, children are
destined to break your heart, which is not a bad thing, right,

(01:03:02):
Like with love comes heartbreak. You know, I always say,
quote my therapist when she says that, and understandable, right,
because I would imagine, you know, even I listen the
close thing I got to against my dog, and there
are certain ways in which I wish my dog were
trained and did certain things and acted certain ways at
certain times, but he doesn't, you know, and like they're

(01:03:25):
a part of me that like, oh god, I wish
that Quarry was just sometimes a little quieter, a little calmer,
and he's not. He likes He's just very energetic and
loves everybody, wants to jump on everybody, and there's a
part of me that just has to like accept that.
And I'm using that in humor, but in kind of
the larger scope of things, I think you expect that

(01:03:45):
your child might break your heart quote unquote, in that
you might have dreams of who they are and who
and think you know who they should be, but allow
them to be who the fuck they are. Let your
heart break and move on, but just be there for
them kind of anticipate that that will happen, because real

(01:04:06):
love doesn't have expectations. Unconditional love says I want you
to be who you are. I want you to do
what you need to do. Unconditional love doesn't say you
get to mistreat me. Unconctional loved and say you get
to hurt yourself and others and I'm gonna love you anyway.
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about I
might have a blueprint that I see from my child.

(01:04:26):
You're gonna do this, you wanna do that, you wanna
be here, You're gonna accomplish this, this and that, and
you might want something completely different. And I'm going to
support and be there for you and show up for you,
regardless of if it's the thing that I would do,
because you're your own person. You get to be your
own person. If a child, or anyone for that matter,

(01:04:48):
says that you hurt them, if your son, your daughter,
or your kid, I haven't found the non binary version
of son or daughter. What is the non bine, So
I just keep saying child. But I understand that, like
I'm an adult. But if you're offspring, we'll use that
for now. If you're here an offspring or anyone says
you will hurt them, how can you respond in a
way that conjures curiosity? Being told that you hurt someone hurts.

(01:05:12):
It sucks and there is a desire to get defensive.
But when someone says that you've hurt them, I would
encourage you to remind yourself that they're saying it because
they love you and they probably want to resolve it,
and so it's not to bring you down. It's not
to make you bad, it's not to make you wrong,
but it's because they want an honest, authentic, and transparent relationship.

(01:05:35):
They want the connection to be true and solid, and
a solid connection isn't just built with rainbows. You do
have to go through the storm. Going through storms deepens
the connection. And we don't have to go through the
storm fighting. We can go through the storm softly or

(01:05:56):
with compassion or with curiosity. We can take out our umbrella,
we can put on our storm gear. We don't have
to like resist and be defensive. There's a lot to
learn when somebody says you've hurt me, there's something for
you to learn about yourself and something to learn about them.

(01:06:16):
And so when when your offspring brings to you that
maybe something you did, listen, You're not perfect. So you know,
if your child is never said you ain't hurt them
or you, then I would actually be curious, even more curious. Wait,
like I did everything perfectly. That's impossible. So expect that
at some point people that you love will have to

(01:06:37):
come to you and say the hard thing and honor
the fact that they had the courage and were brave
enough to say that to you and respond to that
with the love of curiosity and asking, you know, like
take take accountability where you need to take accountability, and
then the curiosity like how can how can I make
this better? What do you need from me? How can

(01:06:58):
I support you? I really love talking about getting healing
with people who are no longer alive. Lena's therapists saying,
don't go to someone needing a response for you to
heal who baby, it's your truth. It is for your liberation,
and so whether that person is alive or not, you
get to have that conversation. I'm always having conversations with

(01:07:21):
my you know, deceased loved ones. You know, I had
to be very vulnerable and transparent. Maybe I've shared it sometimes.
There's so many fucking places that I'm at that I
don't know who I've said what to. But you know
I did not handle my relationship with my godfather well
you know, before he passed away, we weren't talking. There

(01:07:42):
are reasons around that that are are truly on me,
and I really really regret that and hold a lot
of guilt around that. And finally, maybe a month or two,
maybe three months ago this year, you know, I got
myself a candle, have a photo of him. I lit
that candle and apologized to him, and I, you know,

(01:08:07):
you know who knows what's happening beyond the stars. But
it wasn't about whether or not he actually hears it
or feels it. But it was for me to release
that guilt for myself, for me to be able to
move forward and know that I get to do better.
In fact, I get to honor him by acknowledging my
missteps and making sure that I don't do that again

(01:08:27):
with the people in my life. Are who are here,
so you can have those hard conversations where you where
you ask for forgiveness or where you forgive others who
may no longer be here or who are fully alive,
but you just aren't in conversation with them. You don't
need their response for you to get free, for you
to heal. I think that's such invaluable takeaway when Lena

(01:08:50):
said meeting people where they're at, or actually instead meet
me where I'm at, because I don't want to have
to shrink if we're not aligned. That's okay, you know
is that? What? Let me meet you where you're at,
which you know we see, we hear that in business,
and we hear that in personal And I really love
the take of I'm gonna meet you where I'm at,
because I do. I really do love that reframing because

(01:09:12):
because it's not bad if we're not aligned, you know,
it doesn't mean that I'm better than you or you're better,
Like it's just like we're not on the same page,
and we may have no interest on getting on the
same page. And that can be Okay, this does not
have to be there does need to be retaliation. There
doesn't need to be an argument. It's kind of like, okay, cool,
Like we're on different pages and we might have to

(01:09:33):
go on different journeys and we'll come back and find
each other or we may not. You know, some people
are met for a season and some people are meant
for a lifetime. And I think it's really important. I
forget who says it, but like not, I think it's
extra Tyler Prairie not confusing seasonal people with lifetime expectations,
which I think is so valuable, right, Like, sometimes we

(01:09:54):
expect people that come into our lives to be here
all the time. I say this about birthday dinner, which
I don't really do anymore. But I used to do
birthday dinners and if I looked at the photos over
the years, it was usually the same nine people, but
then there was like one or two seats that were
different every year, like one or two people weren't always there,
and those were seasonal people. And I don't, you know,

(01:10:16):
I used to feel some type of way about it,
but now I don't. It's like, yeah, some people we're
just there in my life, and I'm in their life
for a season to learn something, to have some laughs,
to go through some you know, shit together, and then
that's kind and that's it and that's okay, and I
get to hold the lessons. It's like a car, right
Like those of you who hold onto every motherfucking birthday car,
I'm gonna free you today. You don't have to hold

(01:10:39):
onto every single motherfucking birthday cards you get. You can
read the car, you can hold the message in your heart,
and then you can toss that shit in the recycling.
If somebody made the card by hand, that's one thing.
Frame it up. But you know, so I just bought
that Hamewark car. You can hold it. It doesn't just
because you tossed it doesn't mean that those words don't
stay with you doesn't mean it doesn't mean something to you.

(01:11:00):
So just because a person is no longer able to
be in your life doesn't mean that they didn't mean
something to you, or that you don't mean something to them.
It's just that in this season of your life, they
can't be there. So allow people to meet you where
you're at. Don't don't contort yourself because you're trying to
hold on to an old version of a relationship that

(01:11:22):
you're outgrowing and that that person is also outgrowing. Liberate
both of you bye bye by staying true to who
you are. Leava said, blood relationships are the laziest kind.
There's an entitlement, and you know, like that that is
a can be a I'm sure a jarring thing for
some people to hear it, but if you start to

(01:11:42):
parse it back, if you really start to pick at it,
there's a lot of truth to that, which is that,
like there is a there is an expectation that we
have societally that if we are related by blood, we
get to do and say whatever we want to each other,
and all is for given or all is forgotten. And
yet with other folks, with our friends, with strangers we

(01:12:05):
might hold them to. With our romantic partners especially, we
hold them to much higher standards. We're like, no, these
are my boundaries, these are my guardrails, this is my
I will not tolerate this or But we don't do
that with our family, especially with our parents. And so
I think understanding that blood is the laziest kind, because
there's often dynamics where people don't do work to maintain

(01:12:29):
the relationship. They don't invest in the relationship. They just expect, well,
because you're my mom or because you're my offspring, this
relationship exists, and that every relationship, every single fucking relationship,
takes work. And that is not a bad thing. It's

(01:12:50):
a beautiful thing, and it's part of our humanity, is
the work that we have to do to stay in
relationship and stay in community with each other. And that
doesn't that line doesn't end with family. It should continue
with family. In fact, it should. It should be where
you learn that lesson. You should learn inside of your family,

(01:13:11):
that relationships shouldn't be taken for granted, and that there
is a way that we we want to treat each other,
and that we should be in conversation about how we
treat each other. But if your blood is not curious
about you, is not working to stay in relationship with you,
does not care about your feelings, and it's just it's
my way or the highway, then it's worth investigating that,

(01:13:35):
gently interrogating that. You could still decide to go home
for Thanksgiving. But if ultimately you're like going home is
a painful experience, you have every right to say I
ain't going home. Controversial but true. You have every right
to say, oh, I'm not going to put myself in
that situation. Do not sacrifice your mental health and your
peace of mind because I'm related to that person. No no, no,

(01:13:58):
no no no no no no no no. You are
a human first, and you deserve respect. You deserve love,
you deserve compassion, you deserve safety, you deserve peace, You
deserve ound to be around people who also agree with
that and who want to cultivate that for you and
with you. And if that's not the blood family, then

(01:14:19):
you know, make some decisions. Okay, you know it really
goes to what we're talking about at the end. If
this place where these people don't bring me joy, if
I'm not excited to hang out with you, if I'm
not excited to go to this dinner, then I'm not
gonna go. Lena said, be around people who see the
light in you and you see the light in them.

(01:14:41):
I cannot express or stress enough how important that is.
Be around people who see your light, who want to
who want to turn it up for you and with you,
who want to celebrate you, and who you want to celebrate. Right,
it's mutual. There's mutual light here. We know when we're together,
we shine. Even think about you and your bestie. Hopefully

(01:15:02):
you're in a best your relationship where when you and
your best you are together, y'all just shine, right, y'all,
don't care where you are. You're gonna laugh as loud
as you want. You're gonna dance as hard as you want.
You're gonna bring out the best in each other. I
think it's okay to expect that from your mom, your dad,
your parents, your siblings. I think it's okay to want
that and expect that or require that. You know, and
and if they're not able to meet you there, it's

(01:15:25):
then you know it's okay to let that dream go
and readjust but you do not have to continue putting
yourself in places where you are being drained, where you
are being hurt. I'm gonna say this last one because
I really love it. Queer folks. You know, Lena's a writer.
I love when the writers come through because they they
be saying some shit that I'm just like, oh yeah, yeah,

(01:15:48):
drool over it. Queer folks wear freedom like a leather jacket. Huh.
And maybe not always, you know, it takes work to
get there, but that is the ultimate. I think that's
what we learn from our queer elders, is how to
wear freedom, how to do the thing, even if the
rest of society is saying, now that's crazy, baby. Where

(01:16:10):
your freedom like a leather jacket, cozy every day? Okay,
use it? Comfy, cool, sexy, free, so important, so important.
We're gonna put some of the things that we talked
about in the show notes. So Paris is burning, mother hunger,

(01:16:31):
adult children of emotionally immature parents. You'll find links in
the show notes to get those materials. Now, you know
you didn't think I was gonna let you get out
of here without a little preview from the Messy Mom
pod over on sub stack. Okay, no, we got to
talk about those intentions that Bessie and I set that

(01:16:51):
beautiful big thick may need dick. We have to talk
about my performance anxiety. You know, here's always to destroytion
around sex by talking about sex. And so I'll fill
you in on some of my experiences, the highs, the
uh you know not I wouldn't say there were any lows,

(01:17:13):
but the frustrations or the things that I'm thinking about
or or or learning about myself and my body and whatnot.
So here's a little snippet from the Messy Mom pod
that comes out on Friday the sixth. Suddenly I'm in
front of one of them and we dancing and grind

(01:17:35):
it and huh me, honey girl, I said, I know
what's poking me. I know what's in your pocket, love.
I know it's in the front of your pocket love.
And I love it. I love it for me, And

(01:17:55):
you know, then finally I'm very direct, like when I
want to think and the vibes are vibe and I'll
be directed. I'd be like, I was like, you want
to go to the dark room. I was like, yeah,
let's go. And so you know, we we we did that.
We had our fun. It was it was it was
lovely my dick was temperamental. Here's what I'll say this.

(01:18:16):
Let me, let me, let's get through the messy things
I can. It's not I wouldn't say it's performance anxiety.
Maybe like I don't feel myself anxious. I just like
sometimes the setting is just my dick is very goldilocks. Yeah, goldilocks.
That's a perfect way to describe it. Yeah, So I

(01:18:38):
hope you you'll check it out. Brandankaguman dot substack dot
com comes out on Friday, June sixth, And it's just
me giving you all the details about my Pride experience,
and I'm wishing you a happy and safe and fun
and joyous Pride. Be safe, take care of each other,
share your locations with your with your crew, check in

(01:19:02):
with each other, and also check in you know, like
we're all communities, so even if there's somebody that you're
you know, stay safe. But you know, if you see
things out there, you know, say something, don't don't let
people stumble on their own. We are we are. All
we got is each other, So look out for each other,

(01:19:23):
especially during this Pride month and through all these festivities.
All right, that's it. You can find me on Instagram
as well at Brandon Kyle Goodman. You can find our
podcasts at tell Me Something Messy and you can join
our community on the Messy Monday's substack. When you subscribe,
you'll get weekly posts, recommendations on sex and self and

(01:19:45):
so much more. Also, I want to hear from you,
so send your topic ideas, your messy stories, your submissions,
your game ideas to tell Me Something Messy at gmail
dot com. You can also call us at six six
nine sixty nine Messy. That is six six' nine six
ninety six three seven seven, Nine rate review and share

(01:20:07):
this podcast with all your hoe and aspiring ho. Friends
really really helps the show, out all. Right until next,
time ask about the politics of that dick before you
make it, spit make sure they eat the kitty before
they beat the, kitty before fuckation or suckcation. Communication and
in case you haven't heard it, yet today you are

(01:20:28):
so deeply. LOVED i love you. Bye thank you so
much for listening to Tell Me Something. Messy if you
all enjoyed the, show send the episode to someone else
who might like. It Tell Me Something messy was executive
produced By Ali, Perry Gabrielle collins And yours. Truly our
producer and editor Is vince De. Johnny for more podcasts

(01:20:51):
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Brandon Kyle Goodman

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