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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Of the law and Order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.

Speaker 3 (00:09):
These are our stories.

Speaker 4 (00:10):
Done done, Hello, and welcome to That's Messed Up sv Podcast.

Speaker 3 (00:31):
I'm Kara Klank and I'm Liza Traeger.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
We talk SVU, true crime up top, We gab, we gossip,
we chit chat. Right now, it's hard to even come
up with anything besides dexter to talk about. But I
will prevail. So I did watch Copycat, and I've been
dying to tell you.

Speaker 1 (00:49):
That, which ever since we had William McNamara on our podcast,
I've been seeing a bunch of stuff about how like
that movie got on Netflix, and I think it found
like a little bit of like a resurgence, like people
have been watching. That's how I watched it. I watched
Netflix and it's good.

Speaker 2 (01:07):
I mean, it's very it's what is it, early nineties,
late ladies, it's.

Speaker 1 (01:11):
Very overly yeah, early nineties, early nineties. Yeah, it's very
of the time.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
Billy McNamara, former part of the Hattie, I didn't remember,
like I kind of didn't recognize him.

Speaker 3 (01:21):
He's like a sexy killer.

Speaker 2 (01:22):
It would have sucked, but watching the blue like Windex
that he was putting in, like, yeah, oh it.

Speaker 1 (01:28):
Actually came out in ninety five. So I was like
fourteen when I first saw Copycat, and I was terrified.

Speaker 3 (01:34):
It's scary.

Speaker 1 (01:34):
It's scary for sure, and she doesn't want to leave
her house.

Speaker 2 (01:38):
I mean, fucking who's Harry Connick Junior is a fucking freak.
He's scarier than even Billy McNamara in it.

Speaker 3 (01:45):
Yeah, yeah, oh god, yeah, fucking Harry. So you liked it.

Speaker 1 (01:49):
I did like it, yay, I did like it. Like
it's got like young Holly Hunter kind of playing like
a and Dylan type character. Dylan mcrooney, Dylan McCrone, Dylan
Dermot mulrooney.

Speaker 3 (02:01):
You're thinking of Dylan McDermott, which.

Speaker 1 (02:03):
Is a classic there Day classically get Yeah. I love
that Saturday Night Live schedule where it was like Dermott,
mulrooney or Dylan McDermott.

Speaker 3 (02:13):
Well, yeah, it was good.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
And then I went to see Weapons alone after my spot,
so like I went to an eleven ten so.

Speaker 1 (02:22):
Famously, as we discussed, I think two episodes ago, maybe
I had seen it before you, which is crazy and
you couldn't believe I'd even gone.

Speaker 3 (02:30):
To see it. I can't.

Speaker 1 (02:31):
Yeah, but it's like, you know me, when something gets
to zeitgeist, I have to go see it.

Speaker 3 (02:36):
It's like why I saw long.

Speaker 1 (02:37):
Legs, Like when people are just talking talking, I'm like,
I have to go see it. And then I found
out like our friend Wit is in it, and I
was like, oh, I gotta go see it. So I
was with my family and I went, me Jared, my brother,
my twin brothers, and my sister. So it's like a
family outing. My brother Kevin didn't go, but we all went.
And I was told that it was that violent and

(03:01):
mostly creepy, and I was like, okay, I mean it's creepy.

Speaker 3 (03:06):
But there were like three.

Speaker 1 (03:07):
Times I had to fully put my fucking hands in
my like sweatshirt, my head in my sweatshirt, like I
could not watch.

Speaker 3 (03:12):
I definitely screamed a few times.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
I was talking to someone who was like, oh, I
heard weapons is scarier than Barbarian, and I said absolutely,
not absolutely, Oh it's not.

Speaker 1 (03:21):
I haven't seen Barbarian, but I saw Companion Barbarian.

Speaker 2 (03:25):
No Barbarian is terrifying weapons was scary, but I kept
looking for something that wasn't there, and so I'm going
to see it again. After reading all my articles and
like watching all the YouTube interviews.

Speaker 1 (03:37):
I was, what was your like overall review? I really
liked it and I can't wait to see it again.
And I was scared. And it's kind of like Long Legs.

Speaker 2 (03:44):
Sorry spoiler, like you know, fast forward thirty seconds, but
I like in Long Legs, I was like, it's just
the devil, babe, and I like this where it's like
it's a witch, it's.

Speaker 3 (03:53):
A psychoash like I like that. Hate that. I feel
like it's like I hate that.

Speaker 1 (03:58):
Okay, just like Long Legs, which is a perfect like comparison,
I feel like it's way more funny and fun than
Long Legs.

Speaker 3 (04:05):
Of course.

Speaker 1 (04:05):
Yeah, and I laughed, and I love the way it
was shot and I love the actors, and I thought
it was great in a lot of ways. I loved
the principle. I loved the principle so much. Oh my god,
the principle was amazing. I loved a lot of it.

Speaker 2 (04:17):
I loved that gay couple because I follow that boy
on Instagram.

Speaker 3 (04:21):
The husband, Yeah, who is that he looks so familiar.
I think it's clear. I don't know, but he was fun.

Speaker 2 (04:26):
But I liked their little matching shirt, like I liked
their relationship.

Speaker 3 (04:29):
I liked that well.

Speaker 1 (04:30):
I was like in it to win it the first half,
just like Long Legs both movies, Like until halfway through,
I was like, I am so terrified, I am so invested.
This movie looks awesome, Like what's happening? And then I
kind of just feel like it's a weird cop out
to just be like it's this witch, like it's you know,

(04:52):
I just don't like, I just didn't think it paid off.
I didn't think the payoff was like for how great
they build that.

Speaker 3 (04:58):
I think that witch was amazing.

Speaker 1 (05:01):
I have grown with some of the internet parodies I
have seen which have made me laugh a lot, to
appreciate that that is a very cool, unique character. I
just felt like there was so much more that could
have been explored about, like what happens when like a
community turns against someone, and like what was going on

(05:24):
with the teacher and like this and that, and it
was just kind of like they didn't know it's not
actually about anything, It's just about a witch that was
before we just said spoiler alert, we already did. I did.

Speaker 3 (05:35):
I did.

Speaker 1 (05:35):
Okay, okay, okay, but before we ask our film, now
we need to get I have the host of Dear Movies,
I Love You available to talk to us in a moment.

Speaker 2 (05:45):
I will say I was watching interviews with Zach Kreeger
and like reading about it, and he wrote this after
Trevor Moore died and like that was his good friend. Yeah,
so my dared worked for him, so he was like
really sad obviously and grieved, and he just started writing
this and he didn't know what was gonna happen, Like
this just came to him, the perspective, like the way

(06:05):
it was shot, like the different story. Like he said,
he didn't come up with what was gonna happen till
page fifty that he was just writing. And I think
grief is like an undercurrent of this. But I think
what was haunting when you're like I didn't get the
like payoff, is that like I mean, maybe it's lame,
but it's like the parents never got better barely the

(06:28):
kids talked again, and it's chilling, and like also like
a whole classroom of kids disappear all the time and
I just felt like the trauma of like doesn't leave us,
which I guess is late like we talk about all
the time.

Speaker 3 (06:42):
With SVU and like all of that.

Speaker 2 (06:44):
But yeah, I just felt like haunted by the end
because I wanted like something, and then it was like, oh,
the witch is dead, the evil is dead, but no
one gets better. Yeah, and so that's what kind of
haunted me in terms of like payoff and that little
boy was just so cute. Yeah, and now and Zach
was saying that it's also about substance abuse, like he's

(07:06):
he's an alcoholic, and so you know she's an alcoholic.
Josh Ban's like anger issues and then like the Cops.

Speaker 1 (07:13):
The Math, the He's fantastic. He was, he was, So
I was invested. I liked all the characters.

Speaker 2 (07:22):
But yeah, so I guess addiction was the other theme
that like he talks about or like that I that
I pieced together by all of my little research after
the movie. But before we talk to Casey, I will
say I went to a regal It's pepsi and it
was fucking disgusting. They didn't even have a cherry pepsi
and I will never go again. To part the kids
Jared took the kids to see Bad Guys Too while
I was working one day in Vermont, and they were like,

(07:44):
is pepsi okay?

Speaker 3 (07:44):
And he goes, it's actually not, and he got something else.
He's like, I don't want that, no, because I drink
diet soda.

Speaker 2 (07:52):
So like I did get my but I like a
splash of the fun I do mostly Diya coke, and
then I get a splash of the cherry and it
tastes like it usually pepper root beer and so to
not I had.

Speaker 3 (08:03):
My dia pepsy.

Speaker 1 (08:06):
Okay, but it was scary to walk home at night
because I did see it alone and it started at
like midnight, you know what I mean, And like, yeah,
all right. Casey actually also an inadvertent plug for I
think we've plugged it before. But in case you guys
did not know, our producer Casey O'Brien has a podcast
on the Exactly Right Network called Dear Movies, I Love
You with Millie Cherico right am I saying her name

(08:28):
the right way to Jericho, okay, and I love her
and I love you and they talk about movies.

Speaker 3 (08:36):
So you guys should listen to you if you're a
cinophile I do let us know.

Speaker 5 (08:41):
Yes, we didn't cover this episode or this movie on
the show, but I with regards to the ending and
it being just a witch, I completely one hundred percent
agree with one of you, and that person I agree
with is Lisa.

Speaker 4 (08:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:56):
I thought I saw you nodding furiously when Lisa said it.

Speaker 3 (09:00):
I knew who you were agreeing with.

Speaker 5 (09:02):
I just I but you know, like a lot of
the scariest issues in life, the answer is very simple sometimes,
and so I thought, I do like.

Speaker 3 (09:10):
That the simple answer is that someone's aunt came to
town who was.

Speaker 1 (09:13):
A witch who puts all the kinds in the basement
and fed them soup to keep them alive and can
use a stick to crack and make them do whatever
she want. I mean, like you're trying to tell me
that's the Fermi paradox right now.

Speaker 5 (09:22):
I just think that in the movie world, it is
the simplest exploit.

Speaker 3 (09:27):
I just I like it.

Speaker 1 (09:28):
Aucas razor, what's the what's the what's the Oukham's razor?
Maybe what I meant I I liked that. I thought
that was a very sad and the ending was so satisfying.

Speaker 3 (09:37):
I saw a.

Speaker 1 (09:38):
Ton of people online and you Jared loved it also,
and he's a horror guy. You guys watch a lot
more horror than I do. I'm just like I was
so scared and so invested, and I just felt disappointed,
Like I was like, it's a witch. Like I just
kind of was like I was waiting for it to
be something supernaturally, of course, but I just was like

(09:59):
wee were meeting her halfway through the movie, like I
had a bunch of issues with it. And then I
did go online and I saw a bunch of people
with the same gripe as me, Like a lot of
people were saying similar like first half is fucking hundred
percent and then it loses.

Speaker 2 (10:13):
I just kept trying to compare it to Barbarian, which
wasn't fair. And I think that's why at first I
was a little like because Barbarian, to me, I've never
felt more seen, like everything we've reached for everything we do.
I was just like, this is the female. I gotta
watch it. I'm just gonna watch it. I'm gonna watch it.
Fucked Kara, be ready.

Speaker 3 (10:29):
I am.

Speaker 5 (10:30):
I am a man like you, like you said, this
is a man who are saying this. But I found
weapons scarier. It just it got under my skin more
for some reason because you're a dad and it was kid,
because maybe because I'm a hashtag girl dad and the
and also I just think Liza, like you were kind
of speaking to all of the deeper issues of this.

(10:53):
I just feel like it tackles a lot of very
like deep personal issues that the filmmaker was having with
like substance abuse and the passing of Trevor More And
I don't.

Speaker 3 (11:00):
Know, I didn't know any of that, so like I
didn't either.

Speaker 5 (11:03):
But no, but it got I felt I felt that
from watching the movie.

Speaker 3 (11:07):
It just got for me. It's like, I don't know
that Julia Gardner's an alcoholic.

Speaker 1 (11:11):
I know she's drinking to dull the pain of somebody's
the entire town thinking she's a fucking witch that killed
their kids.

Speaker 3 (11:20):
She's not the witch that killed their kids. It's a
different one.

Speaker 1 (11:23):
Like I mean, yeah, like it could be like that
wasn't set up to me. To me, it was that
guy was the only addict. She was saying that the
dad's anger was coming from his kid being gone.

Speaker 5 (11:33):
Well I think I was, I well, like the kid
coming back with like the zombie parents. I feel like
that's like a very child of an alcoholic experience coming
back and your parents are just like who are they?
I have to be the adult. I have to feed
the children that are in our basement those types of things. Yeah,
and so I I I felt that when watching it.

Speaker 2 (11:56):
Yeah, because his parents, Yeah, it's about his childhood in
that way too, alcoholic parents. That jumps scared when she
looks in the window. I that was really scary when
they were just and when she comes out with the
sys she comes out into the car. I I was
about to throw up, Like I was so scared, but
like I'm yeah.

Speaker 3 (12:16):
Like I just was like, but he.

Speaker 1 (12:18):
Has this little kid has a good relationship with his parents,
So I wasn't thinking about it like from that, I.

Speaker 5 (12:23):
Know, like that's I think that's so sad about Yeah,
no alcoholism.

Speaker 3 (12:26):
It's like they can be great people, but then they
just have an addiction.

Speaker 5 (12:29):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (12:30):
I just have a witch on who came over and
their life force.

Speaker 2 (12:34):
But the one thing I haven't seen online that might
be my own thing.

Speaker 3 (12:38):
That I caught. I should make a video.

Speaker 2 (12:40):
But the time was to seventeen and two people stayed
and seventeen were taken, and I feel like.

Speaker 3 (12:48):
No one interesting. I don't know if that including the teacher.

Speaker 2 (12:51):
Yeah, I was like the kid and the teacher are
left too, and then seventeen were gone and it happened.

Speaker 1 (12:55):
You find things in numbers, you're like a numerologist. Do
I remind you of Taylor Swift? Hey?

Speaker 3 (13:01):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (13:03):
But what I was gonna also say, here's one little
thing that we thought was like you know how we
like again spoiler if you're still listening, like, you know how,
Like somebody writes witch on her car in red paint
and we find out later it's Josh Brolin because he's
got the paint in his car.

Speaker 3 (13:18):
Did he paint that and then also knock on her
door twice? Is that? Do we think that was something Josh.

Speaker 1 (13:24):
Brolin's character would do, paint that and then knock on
her door twice to freak her out?

Speaker 5 (13:29):
Like, I don't know that that that I guess I
assumed that was that was him.

Speaker 1 (13:33):
Well, they show the paint pretty obviously, like, but then
then the door knocking feel felt like but I also
like that like she looked at the ribbons and you're like,
maybe something's happening, and then you don't know what's gonna happen,
and then when he's like, is that my ribbon?

Speaker 2 (13:45):
And then snap and I don't know. I like loved
that and I loved.

Speaker 1 (13:48):
The perspective of it all, like the different vine, different
chapters basically, but that love that kind of said their
favorite scene to film was in the bar, which I
find kind of crazy.

Speaker 3 (14:00):
Oh, I don't even really really remember that. The cop
and the girl they like.

Speaker 1 (14:04):
I mean, it was wild seeing Wit like stab himself
in the face with a fork over and over again.

Speaker 3 (14:09):
Too. I was like, oh, this is scary.

Speaker 2 (14:13):
The one thing I saw online that was funny was
like when't like the town noticed that this little boy
just can't stop buying soup, Like where are your parents?

Speaker 5 (14:21):
And why do you need all this? He must have
had to have bought so truly so much soup.

Speaker 1 (14:25):
I just was also kind of like, if this witch
is like trying not to get caught, why is she
abducting seventeen kids, why doesn't she abduct them one at
a time or something like that, Like what like you're
making this huge splash, but then you're also like, we've
got to get out of town and don't tell anybody
about me, Like I don't know, aren' you powerful enough

(14:45):
that you can stop him telling anybody about you or
like or anybody that finds out about you.

Speaker 3 (14:50):
You can just, I don't know, fucking snap.

Speaker 1 (14:52):
Your stick at Like there was just the the witch
coming in with like a bunch of rules that I
don't know, like their salt on the ground. I guess
that's some kind of vampire rule I'm supposed to know.

Speaker 3 (15:02):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (15:03):
Like I just was kind of like, oh, okay, so
in the end, it's just this like fucking thing that
I never could have predicted.

Speaker 3 (15:09):
I just thought it'd be something different. Same in Long Legs.

Speaker 1 (15:12):
It's just the fucking like it's a lady in a
fucking veil, like it's been in twelve other movies. Like
I just was like, not, but but I would, I
would like watch it again and see what I missed.
I would, you know, like, And also I thought the
ending scene I thought was crazy and funny. I laughed
like I was like the ending, I was like, this
is a satisfying ending, even though I didn't really like

(15:34):
where the second act like half went. But I don't know,
but I was I was proud of myself for going
but I had to close my eyes at the teacher
after he got at the principal got hit by the.

Speaker 5 (15:46):
Car, and I was gonna say, the violence is really crazy.
I'm surprised somebody said that it wasn't.

Speaker 1 (15:53):
This is a new thing that's happening in a lot
of TV and movies that I'm noticing is like skull pummeling,
like just smashing someone in the face over and over
again until there's nothing there but a pile of pulp.
Like that did not used to be just randomly thrown
into every movie. And we didn't even talk about June
Diane Raphael, Oh my god, could use more of her.

Speaker 3 (16:17):
Yeah, love June Diane.

Speaker 2 (16:19):
But then when you finally see the boys point of view,
I don't know, I like love and you know, like
production wise and when an interview he said, like him
and his DP went out or did you read did
you see this? Like they went to the locations way
before they started shooting, so like they planned all the
shots out, so by the time filming starts they just
know all their shots.

Speaker 3 (16:38):
They don't have to like figure it out while they're
going along. Isn't that what you're supposed to do? Would
you direct?

Speaker 5 (16:44):
No?

Speaker 3 (16:44):
It feels like like day before.

Speaker 2 (16:46):
I feel like people don't not everyone has the luxury,
Like I'm on indies, right, So it's like people are
figuring out the angles while we're there, and the space
is there, so you're waiting. But he just said, like
creativity kind of flourishes without time, and so they just
went for a whole month and just like planned everything.

Speaker 1 (17:01):
So by the time they got there, they just like
it paid off because it looked awesome. You can't say
it doesn't like look awesome, like it's shot awesome.

Speaker 2 (17:08):
But I liked the gas station being the central kind
of figure of it too. And then the other creepy,
kind of deeper thing that I saw online. They all
ran like and I kind of caught it before I
read it, but they all run like that girl from
the bomb Hiroshima, you know that like melting Girl.

Speaker 3 (17:28):
Was that Vietnam? Where was it was that Vietnam?

Speaker 1 (17:30):
But you know that like the famous thing, Like yeah,
I'm sure the girl running with that's how they all
the kids ran.

Speaker 3 (17:39):
That's the posing.

Speaker 5 (17:41):
I've been seeing a lot of interviews with Josh Brolin,
and they were like, why did they why did they
run like that? Because he was like a producer on
the one too, and he was like, I have no idea.

Speaker 3 (17:52):
He's a script.

Speaker 1 (17:53):
It's in the script, Like that's what I script where
it's like arms behind them in a.

Speaker 5 (17:58):
V Like yeah, he was, but he was like, I
have no idea, and frankly, I don't want to know.
Like he's like, it's scary and it works. It's effective, dude.

Speaker 1 (18:05):
Some of the visual stuff was like, yeah, it's like you're, oh,
I think when you can point to something and go,
that's from Weapons, you know what I mean? Like you're
gonna see a janky, little redheaded short wig with bangs
and you're like, that's the witch from Weapons. You know,
Like you're just like there's iconography in that movie for sure.

Speaker 5 (18:24):
I also, I really appreciate hot Dogs. It made me
hungry for hot dogs. I did appreciate, you know, like
Josh Brolin's character is like so angry and hateful towards
uh Julie Gardner's character, but then I don't know he's
throughout the movie there's like she gets humanized to him
and there's like a forgiveness there.

Speaker 3 (18:45):
I don't know.

Speaker 5 (18:45):
I thought that was kind of a beautiful story arc
in the movie as well well.

Speaker 1 (18:49):
She gets humanized only after he realizes that there's something
fucking sinister going on in the town because he sees
the principle of the school run toward her with his
eyes bulging out of head and try to.

Speaker 3 (19:00):
Assess its true.

Speaker 1 (19:02):
But that's when she becomes a human and they realize, oh,
we're in this together.

Speaker 3 (19:06):
That's the turn.

Speaker 5 (19:07):
Yeah, but I feel like there was still sort of
a gray area there where he's not sure what's happened.

Speaker 3 (19:14):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (19:14):
I feel like he saw that terror in her face
and it was like, oh, wait, this is something different,
Like this is not a girl who kidnapped seventeen kids
and did something with them.

Speaker 2 (19:24):
But the Principle and the Methad were probably outside of
Julia Gardner and the Little Boy.

Speaker 3 (19:30):
I really loved them. It was good. Lots of conversation.

Speaker 1 (19:35):
Yeah, yeah, I mean yeah, like it's making me kind
of want to see Barbarian because.

Speaker 2 (19:40):
You need to see Barbarian in terms of this podcast
and what I think you should see it, But like
be ready to close your eyes a lot.

Speaker 1 (19:47):
I'm definitely, I mean, there's definitely gonna be no way
I can watch a lot of that stuff like I
couldn't watch a lot of the beatings. I could not
watch the final scene like at all. I sorry to
bring up Eric Stone Street, I can't stop. But he
said he doesn't read any part of the script that
he's not in. He likes to be surprised, like he
doesn't care, like he wants to watch it as a fan.

Speaker 3 (20:06):
And I get that.

Speaker 1 (20:06):
But and you think there's context that you get from
the rest of the story, Well, it depends what the character.

Speaker 2 (20:12):
Like, I didn't have to read the rest of Nope,
because I was just the one thing and it didn't matter.

Speaker 3 (20:16):
So I can go see it.

Speaker 2 (20:16):
Not that he's in one thing, he's in a lot
of it, but it's separate from Dexter's life in this way.

Speaker 3 (20:20):
So oh okay, Yeah, I.

Speaker 1 (20:24):
Just thought that was inter I feel like in an
interview saying she does the same thing, she just goes
and when do I come in?

Speaker 2 (20:31):
But that Meth had lost thirty five pounds and since
filming got switched because of the strike for a year,
he kept that weight down the whole year waiting. He's
the only because the whole movie got recast, he's the
only original casting exist. Yeah, the movie was fully cast,
and then the strike happened and no one else could
do the movie outside of the meth head, who he

(20:55):
saw in some Ben Stiller movie. Was like upset became
obsessed with. But he's the only original. Josh Berlin was
supposed to be Pedro pascal By Henry was supposed to
be the principal. Yeah, it was like fully Julia. It
was a full recast but ended up. Now I'm trying
to find out who the other people were. The original

(21:16):
was Renate Rens, who was the girl from Worst Person
in the World.

Speaker 3 (21:21):
She was originally going to be the teacher Julia.

Speaker 1 (21:25):
I'm saying her name incorrectly because I think she's from
Have you seen that movie Casey?

Speaker 3 (21:31):
Yeah, we know the main girl from that.

Speaker 1 (21:33):
Now.

Speaker 2 (21:33):
I love Julia Berner. I think she's the best. She's
like one of the best.

Speaker 1 (21:38):
And Brian Tyree Henry was supposed to be the president,
the principal. Yeah, I could see that, but I loved
this guy. To me, he was the one that I
am dbat Immediately I was like, who is this guy?

Speaker 4 (21:50):
I love you?

Speaker 3 (21:51):
The principal.

Speaker 1 (21:52):
Yeah, I hope that's like a big new thing for him.
Uh Okay, Well, that's movie review morning for I've never
done that. We've never full full movie review, but that
movie does. It does like prompt a lot of discussion
and stuff. So I mean I didn't like hate it
at all. Well, you have two weeks to watch Barbarian. Okay,

(22:14):
watch it with me, because there's no watching it. We'll
still watch him with you, not watch. He's seen it,
but he'll he loves to rewatch. Okay, let's see. Well
start we could still Okay, let's start the episode. Go
to that s messed up.

Speaker 2 (22:29):
I'll say one more thing for the people who did
not give a shit about weapons. Okay, So I did
not read the full article yet someone sent it to me,
but it's in the New York Post. How four moms
solved a brutal cold case murder in their free time.
And so basically instead of pickleball, these four moms got together.
They've written a book about it, and they solved a

(22:49):
cold case. WHOA and the casting of these women, it
looks like they would be it's like a perfect little
force the woman. So it's gonna be The Carpool Detectives,
A true story of four moms, two bodies, and one
mysterious cold case.

Speaker 1 (23:05):
Okay wait, I'm like, this is basically the Fabulous Four,
but you're younger.

Speaker 2 (23:09):
It was a fifteen year old, gruesome double homicide that
like no one could figure out, and somehow these women
did it.

Speaker 3 (23:20):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (23:21):
They broke a case from two thousand and five of
a sixty something businessman and his wife that were found
their bodies. Oh la, so we could read them. Are
they in my mom group?

Speaker 3 (23:33):
What the fuck?

Speaker 1 (23:35):
I gotta look these ladies up and see if we
have any mutuals because.

Speaker 2 (23:37):
Anybody like annoyed by women doing this or like, oh
the podcasters think they could solve and then this is
fucking cool. They just called family members, requesting police case records,
conducting interviews with detectives, spoke to neighbors.

Speaker 3 (23:51):
I mean, it's cool.

Speaker 1 (23:54):
Our main suspect called my phone, my cell phone when
I was making a PB and J sandwich for my
kids and asked me why I was digging into him.
I felt the blood drain out of my body. Oh
my gosh, really mixing up the mom life. It's definitely
for us. So I mean the other thing is too,
It's like, yeah, you guys cannot you do not have

(24:15):
the manpower to go after all old cold cases. So
if people want to kind of like give it fresh
eyes again, develop new leads, why not. I don't think
you should like meddle, you know, yeah, like what was it?
Don't fuck with the cats? Then the internet like got
too crazy about some ship, but they figured it out
in the end. So yeah, if you guys care, that's yeah,

(24:36):
you might like Chuck Hogan wrote the book. Another reminder
that go to that smastep live for Lisa's tour dates
or under Lisa's website, and she's all over the place.
And also come see a perf Night of Laughs at
the Bell House on September twenty eighth. I should also
mention it's a Sunday show at five o'clock. So even
if you live kind of out you're like, I don't

(24:58):
really want to be on a Sunday. I live in
New Jersey. Come in, you'll be home. You'll be home
by eight or nine. But yeah, let's get started, Okay.

Speaker 2 (25:09):
We will be doing Dare Today Season nineteen, episode sixteen
premiered in twenty eighteen. And I've been wanting to do
this one for a very very long time. I really
like it, and this is one of the few times
where like, I disagree with Benson and the majority of
people I think, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (25:30):
Yeah, we disagree. You disagree with me too.

Speaker 1 (25:32):
No, I have strong opinions in this episode that I'm
worried that the people.

Speaker 3 (25:35):
Are going to be like, don't don't have the but like,
I think we have a disagree with one but okay,
I can't. I don't know. I think we might have
the same all right.

Speaker 2 (25:43):
So cutie girls on a bus after a game, and
then one of the girls says making buzzer beaters like that,
you'll be playing for the liberty and I'm like, s
views ahead of the trends WNBA chat in twenty eighteen, yeah,
like always.

Speaker 3 (25:58):
So the girls are talking basketball.

Speaker 2 (25:59):
There's a girl and a hat, there's a blonde, there's
a brunette, and it's time for teen games. They see
a man with a helmet and they dare like at
a city bike thing, and they dare the brunette to
go kiss him, and they tell Zoe she has to
do it.

Speaker 3 (26:13):
And I hate the blonde.

Speaker 2 (26:15):
And I wrote I hate blonde and Hat but and
then Hat goes, oh my god, she's actually doing it,
and the blonde goes, this is the best day of
my life, and Zoe walks up to him, taps him
on the shoulder and kisses him on the cheek. The
other girls scream red Parrot, Red Parrot, and they run
into the community center and the music indicates, you know,
time has passed. A short haired mom waits for her

(26:37):
daughter and sees the other two girls, Lisa and Lily.
We learn their names if they had seen Zoe, and
they're like, no, not since we got back from the game.
But she's not answering her phone, so Hat suggests maybe
her battery died, and the mom rushes in and now
we have a high up woman walking inside the school
with Benson and Finn. She's like, I've been running the
sports center for twenty years. This has never happened, and

(27:00):
we don't have cameras, no budget, the friends, but it
looks like a really nice center, so I don't know.
But the friends said that the girl never came inside
after the bus pulled up. So the two friends and
the parents are there and the detectives start asking the
girls questions. The brunettes like, we have to tell the truth,
and a stern mom goes, that's right, young lady, but

(27:21):
they're not speaking up and they clearly have something to say.
So Benson sits down dangerous minds like cool girls style
and is like, no one's in trouble, okay, I just
need to know what happened. We need to find Zoe.
She's your friend, right, and they nod yes. So she
tells them about the day, you know, the girls tell
them about the dare situation, and the mom screams what

(27:43):
and Finn's like, okay, so then what and the blonde says,
we ran inside and now she's gone dramatic music, and
Benson's confused and fuck damn, so you know credits they
approach the coach. She is caring and she know She's like,
this is my worst nightmare.

Speaker 3 (27:59):
But then Finn.

Speaker 2 (28:01):
Says this with like the most monotone, no effect, blurred out,
like from a manual. He just goes, it's a tough job,
a lot of kids to be responsible for, like it
was just perfect. And they ask about a man and
she goes, no, no, no man, and she does look
like a gym teacher. I will be honest, there's a
very butch haircut going on. And so when they ask like,

(28:23):
was there a man. She goes a man and it's funny,
and so they didn't see the man.

Speaker 3 (28:29):
No one saw a man.

Speaker 2 (28:30):
And then she goes, I'm almost certain I accounted for everybody,
and Benson screams back almost certain. She's not happy with that,
like no almost here, and she sneers and spins off
and walks away in anger. Christy and Rollins are with
the girls outside and they give a description of the man,
light brown skin like Indian, and he was by the

(28:51):
bikes and since it's a city bike they call it
bike NYC. They can like track the credit card or
the accounter who took him, so they get his info
and Rollins's crazy, knock knock knock for David get him out,
and nobody answers, but they haven't. They don't care, so
they break down the door full guns up and they
search no One's home as she gets on his laptop

(29:11):
and she's like, lucky us he has find my phone
on his computer? Who doesn't have a laptop password? Do
you guys not have laptop passwords?

Speaker 4 (29:20):
Like?

Speaker 2 (29:20):
In what fantasyland? Does someone not have a laptop password?
That's psychotic. You're lucky you got in there, lucky he
has a find my phone. Lucky you just got straight
into his laptop. So we track him, which is like
a fun thing. I don't think we've ever seen this before,
like opening a laptop, like tracking the phone. And then
the guy walks in like this is a first for me.
Correct me if I'm wrong. It's hard to keep reinventing

(29:43):
the wheel. But they are I've never seen this. So
she goes, the phone is here, and David walks in
right at that moment, and his jacket is as red
as this herring. Okay, so he's startled nerd energy and
he goes, what the hell and they put guns on
him right away, and they go where's the girl?

Speaker 3 (30:01):
He goes, what girl?

Speaker 1 (30:02):
The girl?

Speaker 3 (30:02):
What girl?

Speaker 1 (30:03):
So finally Rollins gets a photo up and he explains
what happens, and he goes, oh, she ran away behind
her friends into the rec center and they're like, are
you positive?

Speaker 3 (30:14):
He goes, I am positive.

Speaker 2 (30:16):
But they knock down his door and he's like, I
can't just leave it open, and Rollin says, call a locksmith.

Speaker 3 (30:23):
The department will reimburse you.

Speaker 2 (30:26):
Yeah right, I had all my but the fire department
broke my shit. Broke my shit like, fuck that Cresey
and it was my Michael C. Hope poster. Okay, so
Crisey called. I'm like sad, I don't happen anymore. So
Creasy calls Benson, and Benson's like what the fuck? Like
that means she's been in here this whole time, But

(30:47):
I don't know why they wouldn't just search a little
bit anyways, but they do a full grid search, and
I hate these two dumb girls, like you're like to
not to lie to everyone while your friends are missing,
Like your friend is missing is so fucked up.

Speaker 3 (31:02):
So they're in this room.

Speaker 2 (31:04):
There's risers and it's a gym, but there's a stage,
there's ping pong, and there's drums, so it's a really
a multipurpose room. And at the top of the risers,
Benson spots a shoe and runs up, and then she
keeps calling for Zoe, and then she sees clothing on
a railing and then she's on the ground and we
see her all the way down the bleachers on the ground,
splat in a broad and shorts full like and yeah,

(31:26):
a really distorted body pose. And Finn runs the fastest
I've ever seen him run, and now they have to
push back all these ball cages, or like pulling these
cages of balls back. She's not waking up, and Finn
calls for a bus while Benson comfort Zoe.

Speaker 3 (31:43):
They're taking her to Mercy.

Speaker 2 (31:45):
They have the best pediatric I see you in the
city and the mom goes in the ambulance and the
teacher asks if Zoe's gonna be okay, and Benson's being
a bitch. But it's like she could have done actually
her count and counted everyone inside and then the thing happened.
So but you know, missing kid, Benson's got to work.

Speaker 1 (32:04):
So finns, I just feel like they would have had
dogs out before they went and tracked down a random
guy on a bike, I believe, Yeah, yeah, why wouldn't
they look through like even though they didn't, yeah, you
would look through the bathroom, you would look yeah.

Speaker 3 (32:17):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (32:18):
So even though Benson's being a bitch, Finn is talking
to the coach and he's like, do you have any
idea why they would be in the gym?

Speaker 3 (32:24):
She goes, I have no idea.

Speaker 2 (32:25):
I told them to change, get what they needed from
their lockers, and wait at the front door for pickups.
But we're at the hospital, and thank goodness, no sign
of sexual assault, so that's good. Rollins joins them, and
she is fuming. She's like she was here the whole time,
where her friends fucking lied to us. And Benson goes
take them in and I hope they get charged, these

(32:46):
little brats. And so Creasy is with the blonde and
cement room bars and Rollins is with the hat but hatless,
and they're gonna do a back and forth cutting between
the rooms. And here's what we learn, Red Parrot. It's
a YouTube dare game, and for a full day, you
have to do everything your friends dare you to do.
So Lily was first, and yesterday was Lisa and today

(33:07):
was Zoe. At lunch, she spilled her soda and then
she also had to tell the poor coach Claire that
she had bad breath, so a really tough day for her.
And then the cheek kiss, and then when they got
back to change it was going to be her last
dare and they told her to run a lap in
the gym in her underwear. They thought it would be
funny to throw her clothes up on the bleachers, and

(33:29):
so she started to climb up to grab her clothes.
They ran away. They're so sorry, but it was too
you know, it's too late. Fuck you guys, No one
cares about your little sorries. And yeah, so so like
they didn't know she fell, Like did they know she fell?
They ran away, like they didn't known till later that
she fell, but they knew she wasn't with that guy,

(33:49):
like either way they list So I.

Speaker 1 (33:51):
Don't understand why they sent the police on a wild
fucking goose she because could have gone when they could
have gone. Oh, last time we saw her was in
the gym and that's it.

Speaker 2 (33:59):
They should on a juvenile like yeah, like detention centers,
like these are the worst girls ever. These are the
girls that grow up to be the girls in the episode,
mean you know what I mean? Yeah, Like, fuck are
you doing lying in this position when like you're right,
they don't confirm if.

Speaker 3 (34:16):
They knew she fell or not, but they must have.

Speaker 2 (34:19):
The cops are there, she's missing, Like yeah, So they're
at the hospital.

Speaker 3 (34:23):
The parents are stressed.

Speaker 2 (34:24):
Zoe's in surgery and they're trying to relieve the pressure
in her brain and it's been hours. So then a
stern center part blonde doctor walks out and Benson and
Finn give them space, and from the parent's reaction, we
realize that Zoe is dead and Benson goes, what she
was breathing when I found her?

Speaker 3 (34:41):
Like, what the fuck? You know?

Speaker 2 (34:43):
She was so hopeful and she goes, yeah, well, the
impact caused brain swelling and it was too severe and
she died during surgery. And Benson asked if they found
her earlier, would it have made a difference, and she says, no,
I don't believe it, because if the brain is swelling,
maybe it wasn't as swelled like they.

Speaker 3 (35:02):
Could have, you know, yeah, Like I can't, I don't know,
maybe not. I guess I can't.

Speaker 1 (35:06):
I can't understand how she could make the determination that
it wouldn't have mattered, like that's that that also I
flag that too, Cardanov.

Speaker 2 (35:13):
And she but she says, I'm sure that Emmy will
declare manner of death accidental. Benson shakes her head and
closes her eyes, like this is so fucking sad. Finnish
squinty eyed, furrowed brow, suspicious Corisian Rollins are chatting at
a very retro coffee machine and they're talking about dumb
things they did as a kid, and Amanda, surprised surprise,
stole her dad's gun, told her friend to hold a can,

(35:35):
and then shot at her friend and it went through
her friend's sweatshirt so close. Call Stone marches in for details.
The girls have been kicked out of sports camp and
they have to live with this forever and all kids lie,
I don't care. I would have charged them. I would
have charged them for lying to the police. And it
just doesn't make with an investigation. How do you know
you're in trouble?

Speaker 1 (35:55):
How do you know you're in trouble unless they saw
her fall and then they didn't do any yeah, exactly.
Like so if they just left her, they'd be like, oh,
we saw her in the gym, Like she was just
in the gym, and then she could be in there, oh,
trying to find her clothes, naked in their minds, you know, yeah,
in her underwear.

Speaker 3 (36:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:09):
And otherwise, if they saw her fall, they were like, fuck,
we got to get out of here. This is our fault.
And then they sent their fucking cops with a red herring.
And that's diabolical, like, you know.

Speaker 2 (36:20):
They belong in prison. But soone agrees that it's an accident.
And just to let it go okay. Benson and Stabler
meet the parents to share condolences, and the mom goes, oh,
I remember Zoe's ring. I want it right now, I
need it right now. Let's go get her ring. And
you know, she's bandaged up on her head, which makes
sense with the fall, and her mom walks over and

(36:42):
places her hands on her. It's like a really sad scene.
And then she moves the blanket down to get the ring,
and suddenly we see there's an incision on Zoe's chest,
like a giant incision. Mom is like, what is this?
They look all the way down her waist. Benson is shocked.
She goes to this blonde bitch doctor and she's talking

(37:02):
with a kid. You know, she's a doctor for the kids,
and she's being silly, and the detectives are like, get
the fuck out. So she's outside. They ask about the incision.
She harvested the organs. She goes two beautiful kidneys, a
liver and a heart. So the parents did not sign
off on this, obviously, and she knows that she's been caught,
you could tell by her face. And the detectives are

(37:23):
kind of shocked by all this. And they go where
are the organs now? And a heart is being taken
to Buffalo and Benson goes, they need to turn around.
She goes, it's a helicopter on the roof, so she's like,
she tells Finn stay with her, and Benson runs to
the roof to stop this heart.

Speaker 3 (37:38):
As she runs, we hear Finn say, are you kidding me?
To the dock. This isn't the background. I don't even
know if you caught it.

Speaker 2 (37:44):
Like Benson's running and that's in the foreground of the seed,
but in the back it's like, he just goes, are
you kidding me?

Speaker 3 (37:52):
I just love him?

Speaker 2 (37:53):
This helicopter guy is so fucking hot. I am in
love with him. But his IMDb photo sadly does not
translate the hotness as well he does in this episode,
so just just leave it at this episode, guys don't google.

Speaker 3 (38:07):
And he's like, what's the problem.

Speaker 2 (38:09):
There's a terminally ill boy and we have to save him,
and Benson goes, no, this is like I need this
in custody. Give me the cooler, and Benson goes, you're
gonna have you know this little boy, and Buffalo is
gonna have to wait for another heart. He goes, no,
this heart is a miracle. This boy's been waiting for
three years. And Benson is very conflicted, but it's like,
what do we do?

Speaker 3 (38:30):
What do we do?

Speaker 2 (38:31):
And he goes, it's wheels up or this kid dies.
It's very hard. Benson goes to the hospital church area.
The parents are there and she breaks it down for them.
They're so distraught and it was you know, it's done
without their permission. And then when the mom hears the heart,
she goes, they took her heart like she she can't
even believe it, and Benson goes, yeah, it's being harvested.

(38:53):
The word harvested is what's like the toughest harvested for transplantation.
The dad is stunned. Helicopter to Buffalo. What are the
parents gonna do? The mom goes, no, this is how
is this happening? I can't I can't do this. The
dad asks for a few days, and it's no. It's
like if the helicopter does not leave within ten minutes,
the heart is useless. So the mom didn't like the

(39:15):
language of useless. Benson immediately apologizes and she knows that
it was wrong, but basically it's like, do you want
to save this boy's life or not. The dad goes,
maybe we should, and the mom goes, it's just not right.
There are pieces of her missing, and this mom is
crying and Benson's walking to the cooler and the helicopter
guy is pleading. He's like tellingm I denied your orders

(39:36):
or I was already gone. You got here late, like
I will take the fall for it. Benson goes, I can't.
That would be committing a crime. And he's like fine,
I'll commit a crime. And Finn goes, come on, like,
maybe we just got here too late, and Benson is like, no, no,
and she walks inside. I disagree with Benson here, so

(39:56):
do I. I agree with the parents. It's fucked up,
and I get up.

Speaker 1 (40:01):
But at the same time, there's a three year old
boy and that the heart's not going to bring the
daughter back, like yeah, like, oh my god, we just
got up there and the helicopter was.

Speaker 3 (40:10):
Just taking off.

Speaker 2 (40:11):
We're so sorry because I understand where the parents are.
Their kid truly just died moments.

Speaker 1 (40:15):
Let the cops, let the parents sue the hospital and
get less. You know, I'm just saying I don't think
bringing that cooler of the heart back to them, stops
what happened or makes it better.

Speaker 2 (40:24):
Yeah, Benson fucked up here. She should have let the
heart go and say or been like, fine, I'll arrest
the helicopter guy when he's back.

Speaker 3 (40:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (40:34):
I didn't agree here with Benson. Blonde is in Wooden Room,
but there's well should we say that this actress is
named Janelle Maloney, which I'm obsessed with because it sounds
so much like Jenna Maroney from thirty Rock. But she's
also like in that new show The Better Sister, which
is a Megan Fahey joint. Right, wait that one. No,

(40:57):
The Better Sister is mals the Oh it's a different one. Yeah, sorry,
what were you watching The Better Sister? I was, Oh, yeah,
Elizabeth Banks and Jessica Bielle that one. So she's in
five episodes of that. But she's also know I can't
why don't I know who she was? Sheila? It says
her name is Sheila. Maybe she was a cop. Well,
she's also a boss on organized crime. I forgot about

(41:21):
that too, And she's an FBS so she's in the
universe of.

Speaker 3 (41:26):
Dick Wolf.

Speaker 1 (41:26):
But she's also I think well known for the West
Wing and the leftovers anyway, Jenna Maroney, everybody, Janelle Maloney.

Speaker 2 (41:36):
Yeah, she, I mean, she's very good in this role. Ah,
she's great, and we have her in wooden room. So
but but it's not just it. But it's not classic
woodroom blinds because there is a two way mirror, and
I don't feel like all the rooms of the wood
have this. So we're in a new place. She's very cold.
Matter of fact, she goes, she hit her head. It's swelled.

(41:57):
We tried everything we could, fluid crushing brainstem, that lights out,
pronounced dead with neurological criteria. Yeah, the heart was beating,
but that's fine, and that's actually the perfect condition for
harvesting organs. I don't know why I talk like that.
It was my interpretation of cold, cold and uncaring, but
it sounded more like I couldn't read a robot learning

(42:17):
to read.

Speaker 1 (42:18):
But that's the deal.

Speaker 3 (42:20):
She doesn't care about this girl.

Speaker 1 (42:21):
She goes, Yeah, her brain's dead, the heart's pumping. I'm
taking it, and so she did. So they go.

Speaker 2 (42:28):
So you took it upon yourself to think the parents
would consent or like what, she goes, Yeah, I did
not have a convon I didn't ask to have a convo.
She couldn't risk them saying no, and she had another
child to consider that's alive. And Benson is stunned, and
the whole episode, Benson is stunned, shocked, taken aback, like

(42:48):
a lot out of this kind of energy. So Benson goes, oh,
so a donask, don't tell, and the lady says, well,
why not, and Benson goes because the law says you
need to explicit consent. And she goes, the law is
wrong and Benson says, that's not for you to decide,
and she puts it back on Benson and goes, would
you bend the law to save a life?

Speaker 3 (43:07):
And you know, she's quiet.

Speaker 2 (43:09):
But what I love about this doctor she does call
Benson lieutenant and that never happens, like no one ever
talked like, gives her her proper rank and Benson doesn't respond,
and she goes, yeah, I thought so, so you don't
strike me as an absolutist, so let's have some respect
for each other. She says, I can't do what you do,
and I don't think you're in a position a second
guess my professional judgment.

Speaker 3 (43:31):
I mean, she like she is eloquent, what is it concise? Direct?

Speaker 2 (43:39):
Benson agrees and says, you're right, but that's not my call.
So now we're in a walk and talk in the
courts and it's Benson and Stone, and he's like, wait,
so you're telling me she presumed consent by the parents,
and Benson goes, well, no presumption, basically nothing stopping her.

Speaker 3 (43:53):
She doesn't care.

Speaker 2 (43:54):
She like cut this kid open and took the heart.
And Benson doesn't think this should be in a criminal
court though, And this is where I disagree. I think
this woman committed a crime. So Stone goes, well, it's
a felony, and Benson says, and I was really close
to being a part of this felony. And he goes, oh, fuck,
you stopped it.

Speaker 3 (44:11):
So Stone is.

Speaker 2 (44:12):
Pretty shocked by that, and she goes, listen, I'm still
not sure I made the right call. And Stone goes, okay,
so going to court or not going to court shouldn't
like be used to assuade your guilt. And he suggests like, well,
let's see if this was a one off thing or
a pattern that she does. I'll hold off on getting
an arrest warrant and I'll talk to Zoe's parents. So

(44:32):
this is a pretty good plan and I'm really impressed
with Stone here. So we're now at the Northeast organ network.
Carise and Finn are on the scene and they asked
how long has she been in the harvesting business? And
they need a pr switch, They need a new word.
They needed a new word. It should be like transition
organ network. So five or six years ago she started

(44:53):
sending pediatric organs, which are very hard to come by,
and Carisy goes, and you just accept it, no questions asked,
and she goes, no, no, no, All her paperwork is always
in order.

Speaker 3 (45:03):
And what paperwork?

Speaker 2 (45:04):
She lists a few different forms, but then she says
consent forms ding, ding, ding, So that means her paperwork
is not in order. Right, you're saying her paperwork's an order,
but she did not ask for consent. So this bitch
is yeah, felony, and the woman is shocked. She goes, wait,
is the doctor and her investigation and they say yes,

(45:24):
and the woman goes, well, we can't afford to lose
this doctor. And Christy goes, okay, well we still need
the records. So we're back at the precincts for a
group meeting and basically with this organization, thirty five children's
organs were harvested, but only four families remember signing a form,
so that means thirty one families plus Zoe's family didn't

(45:45):
even know their children's organs were taken. But there's a
completed form for each kid. So like this is out
of the Teresa Judais playbook. You can't can't for signatures,
you can't forge signatures, and there's a completed one for
each kid. They all have the same handwriting, and this
is like the dumbest part of this episode. So they go,

(46:08):
you know, the sevens all have a European cross on them,
and Rollins goes, yeah, and you know she did study
in Oxford for two years, Like who cares?

Speaker 1 (46:16):
So she was in two years she learned how to
cross her sevens. I do a cross on my seven
I do too a lot. Yeah, yeah, no Oxford here.

Speaker 2 (46:25):
So so Stone is saying that's forgery at a minimum.
So it's like, yeah, organs are not that they like,
you can't fucking do these.

Speaker 3 (46:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (46:36):
Stone goes to Zoe's parents' house, who are planning their
daughter's funeral, and he's like, sorry, but I have to
loop you in and what we found out about this woman?
And Stone is here chatting, and now the families are
considering filing separate charges for forgery. And the mom responds, like,
what else is there to even consider? She cut my
daughter's chest and ripped out her still beating heart, and

(46:58):
she violated the law, Like what are the questions? I
don't understand there's actually like I don't there's no question here.

Speaker 3 (47:05):
She broke the law. It is what it is like.

Speaker 2 (47:08):
And he tries to talk about ethics, and the mom goes,
don't just don't you think it's ethical? You think it's
ethical that she stole my child's body parts? What gave
her the right to do that? A medical degree? And
the dad is raging, like, she had no right to
do that to us, to Zoe. You bring them to
the hospital to take care of them, and you trust

(47:29):
them with your baby and they give her to a vulture.
So we see the doc is scrubbing up and criesye
and Rollins are there, and she says, oh, so the
bird camps are pressing charges and Cariesy says, that's the
least to your problems, and she's so mad at the
cuffs and it's like, you are not special, You're a
little gog complex, Like who do you think you are?

Speaker 3 (47:49):
Yeah, you're getting the cuffs.

Speaker 2 (47:51):
So she's like, well, once this nonsense has cleared up,
lots of children are gonna need my help. And so
we're again group projects at the precinct time. We need
an accurate we need like a quick way to talk
about brainstorming group chats at this at the station. I
need like a word that we all agree upon, because
every time I just like cannot keep saying the center precinct.

(48:12):
We're back at the office, We're back talking. We're back
in a group meeting brainstorm. I can't we need a
word for it.

Speaker 3 (48:18):
What is it? The gang's all in the scrum. I
don't know what to tell you.

Speaker 1 (48:23):
The scrum why sprum is like in rugby, But I
like the first part. It's huddle, a huddle. The gang's
in the huddle. They're in the huddle. I knew, I
knew you were going to come.

Speaker 3 (48:35):
Through with this.

Speaker 1 (48:36):
So so we're in the huddle and I'm so happy.

Speaker 3 (48:40):
I'm like so relieved. I'm so relieved.

Speaker 2 (48:45):
O God, Okay, so okay, So we're talking about all
these forgeries and what's wild? No financials, no money. She
donates a lot of money to charity. Actually, but the
jail time is seven years per count, so it's thirty
two counts seven years each. Finn pipes up, that's a
lot of time over some paperwork. And if Zoe's parents

(49:08):
speak like yeah, double digits upstate and Carisy goes, no way,
they're really gonna do this, like we can't do this,
and Stone goes, listen, I can't blame them, And Caristy goes,
I think she's a saint, forgery or not? And Rollin
asks if he'd be okay with some doctor ripping a
heart out of their kid, and Cariese says two doctors

(49:29):
signed off that she was dead, and Rollin gets riled
up and screams. So hospital bureaucrats get to decide what
parents do with their dead child's body parts, and fin
is with caries and doesn't see the big deal. Dead
is dead. Stone doesn't care what everyone thinks. He cares
about the law. So if you have if you don't
have consent, you can't do it. Isn't that what we talk? Yeah,

(49:51):
rape anything you need consent. It's a felony. And I agree,
So coorch March twelfth, the mom's on the stand. She's
in shock. She's like, this is the worst day of
our lives. She's like she can't stop crying, and like
one day you kiss your daughter goodbye, and the next
day she can't even you know, she can't even finish
her sentence. They look at the form and it's not
her handwriting and not her signature. So that's evidence enough

(50:13):
for the charges. Like how is there even a defense?
Like I don't understand. So Nicki stains is the defense attorney.
And her point is that Benson and the doctor agreed
to donate, and Benson was even trying to convince the parents, right,
And the mom goes, yeah, and it was very upsetting
and it had only been a few minutes andes Zoe
was dead, and she's like, it was a few minutes
and Benson was already laying a guilt trip on me.

(50:35):
And she says, we were in no shape to make
that decision and the damage was already done. And I
just don't think it's right that a doctor gets to
rip apart my baby's heart out of her chest without asking,
and the doctor does not give a fuck her face
is like annoyed, and get me back to work.

Speaker 3 (50:51):
Let me go pull the plugs out of more kids.

Speaker 2 (50:53):
And so they put the little boy up there and
he did not get out her in a sack.

Speaker 3 (50:57):
I wait, I don't think she's pulling plug.

Speaker 1 (50:59):
Because this is like this whole thing reminds me of
like my dad when I was younger, when I got
my license, my dad was like, don't check organ donor
because this is my dad's like whole worldview is He's like,
if they find you on the side of the road dying,
they won't work as hard to save you because they
can save ten people with your organs. And I was
always like, that's so cynical, Like, and I've been an
organ donor since I was sixteen, Like I disagree with that,

(51:22):
Like I don't think she's pulling the plug on anyone,
like specifically, Well.

Speaker 2 (51:26):
At the end, I thing, we'll see, we could just
we can reconvene this discussion at the end.

Speaker 3 (51:31):
Okay, okay, because this happens when she's on Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 2 (51:36):
So so now we're on the stand and it's the
little boy who did not get the heart in Buffalo.
He has HCM, which is a heart disease where the
muscle is too thick and doesn't pump right. So he's
gonna die if he doesn't get a new heart, and we.

Speaker 3 (51:50):
Needed to bring him.

Speaker 1 (51:51):
We needed to bring him in a car, probably six
hours to New York.

Speaker 3 (51:54):
Like we had to bring him in. It's also to around.
It's also irrelevant.

Speaker 2 (52:02):
You can't forge documents, like it doesn't matter what it's
for you, Like I don't I don't understand the I
get why the defense wants to do this. I don't
think this witness should have been allowed. It's irrelevant. It
sayesn't matter. I mean, they have to do what they
have to do. But so anyways, he's like, yeah, you know,
I was going to get a new heart. We went
to the hospital, I got ready for operation, and the

(52:24):
new heart never came, so I had to go back home.
And he's sad. Obviously he's been on the waiting list
for three years. Stone has no questions and he wishes
him the best. So we're in the hallway.

Speaker 1 (52:36):
We do not usually get that no questions for this witness,
and I think I speak for everyone when I say
we wish you all the best.

Speaker 2 (52:45):
Stone tells the parents like damn, that must have been
hard to listen to and it was, and the dad says, wait, fuck,
maybe we should drop our case. The mom says no,
and he goes, maybe we should have listened, like he's
getting guilt, and Stone goes, no, you shouldn't have to
make that choice. That's what this is all about. So
the dad is now defending the doctor like she just
wanted to save lives, and then he sees that the
boy and the parents are walking out of court, and

(53:07):
the dad wants to talk to them, and the mom goes,
don't you dare and I'm on the mom's side here,
but the dad runs up and introduces himself, and the
other dad sharply responds, yeah, we know who you are,
and the mom says, sorry for your loss, and he
wants forgiveness, but they don't want to listen to him,
so they all separate. Dramatic music plays, so we're back

(53:28):
in court and the doctor's on the stand. She has
been a Mercy hospital for twelve years and has done
nineteen hundred surgeries approximately, so the mortality rate for those
surgeries is three percent, which is half the national average
for pediatric surgeries. Niki Stain says, so, what is the
hospital's policy on organ harvesting, and she says, listen, I'll

(53:50):
be honest, I do not follow my hospital's policy. And
she's saying this on the stand, which is admitting to guild.
She says, parents usually don't agree to organ donation, and
so unless a parent explicitly says no, I presume consent.
And that is I guess, the law in over twenty
European countries, but not in the US. And the doctor
thinks that's embarrassing. But I think that's so crazy. Like

(54:14):
if I, god forbid.

Speaker 1 (54:16):
Had to make this decision and someone came to me
and said, hey, your child's heart could save another child
that is waiting for it, I would be like, take it,
let's go. I would give it. Hopefully you don't have
to deal with I hope I never have to make
that decision. But I have different feelings about like the
body after it's dead, and I think that absolutely you

(54:36):
need consent. But I don't know why she didn't just
like try to frame it to people like, yeah, she
doesn't care. Yeah, but if she didn't care, she probably
would have done it after they said no. I mean,
she doesn't care what the parents think she doesn't care. Yeah,
she said that, she admitted it.

Speaker 2 (54:51):
She goes, there's a chance they'll say no, So I'd
rather do it without telling them.

Speaker 3 (54:55):
I just feel like you could.

Speaker 1 (54:56):
Give them a chance to say yes, because I think
a lot of parents would. But she says that they don't. So, yeah,
she doesn't care. She doesn't care what anyone thinks. And
so but then so she's it's what we're talking about now.

Speaker 2 (55:08):
So then she goes, she doesn't ask parents because she
thinks it's distasteful to ask a parent to make that
choice at the worst moment of their lives. And so
I guess it's classier to just steal them. So Nikki
is being very theatrical and going through all the files
of all the successful surgeries that have happened through organ donation,
and Stone puts a stop to it, like we get

(55:29):
the point. So now Stone and Benson meet up at
the bar and she regrets her choice on the roof,
She's like, this isn't police business. So Stone tells a
story about his dad. What else is new? And it's
like his number one part of his personality is like
my dad, my dad, my dad. Okay, but anyways, but
we like him, we love we love Stone. He has
three sons and plays baseball. So he tells a story

(55:52):
that he was at the hospital and he went to
go get coffee and while he was getting coffee downstairs
asking for half and half is when his father died.
And Benson says, that must have been hard, and he says,
it would have been a lot harder if I came
back and his organs had been harvested. And so she says,
you should have seen the parents like looks on their faces.
And he says, you did the right thing. And she goes,

(56:13):
but what if the boys dies? Then what you know?
Then I did the right thing. Who gives a shit?
And Stone goes, nothing is easy when it's not, you know,
black and white, but nothing is gray for this doctor,
Like she must have known this is going to catch
up with her. Benson thinks, like she's so hardcore, doesn't
even make money for this, like something like she's putting
her life on the line for this, for just this,

(56:36):
And so that gets Stone thinking and he go and
so he's like, Okay, well what about all these charity donations.
Maybe all these charity things are actually funneling money for
organs or something. So Benson's going to check it out,
and we're in court hallway. Rollins comes to Stone in
a hurry with a file that the doctor donates fifty
thousand dollars a year to the Children's Heart Procurement Fund

(56:58):
and she dedicates it to and Rollins points in the
paper and we're getting a cliffhanger till court. So the
doctor's back up there and Stone goes, so, you admit
to forgery, right, He says, you're above the law. You
think you're above the law. She goes, well, when the
law is wrong, and when the law is harmful, we
have to find the courage to disobey it. And he's like,

(57:18):
so you think you're an activist and she says sure.
Then he goes, so you're a champion for sick children.
She says, that's what pediatric surgeons do by definition, and
Stone jumps to you had a sun name Benjamin. He
died from a heart condition in two thousand and six,
and yes, that is true, and he was on the
list for a new heart that he never got and

(57:39):
his death is what inspired her to get into this,
and that's what motivates you to break the law. And
she goes, no, saving lives is why I do it,
and he pushes, in your zeal to save lives, you'd
harvest an organ from a child who is not legally deceased,
and Nikki objects and calls it out rageous and that
that would be homicide, and he goes, well she and

(58:00):
Nikki moves to strike, and the judge agrees to strike
it but allows the question. And her answer is that
a second physician needs to certify death on any patient,
so it's not just her judgment, and why would she
let one child die to save another? That wouldn't make
sense to her. He says, but did you try hard
enough to save Zoe Burtkamp's life? She goes, excuse me,

(58:24):
and he asks again, did you try hard enough to
save Zoe Burhamp's life? And she babbles in doctor talk
and he goes, no, you're not answering my question. If
that was your Benjamin on the table at that moment,
would you have really cracked open his sternum and cut
out his heart? And she pauses. She finally has some
sort of thought in her eyes, and she doesn't answer.

(58:47):
She will not answer that because she knows she fucking knows,
she fucking knows that she would not have done that,
and she would have tried to save her son, and
she was happy to let like not try further.

Speaker 1 (58:57):
So I didn't read it like that. I didn't really
read it like that. I thought it was like she.

Speaker 2 (59:02):
Should have said sure, she should have said sure, I'll
break open my son's sternam before I know for sure.

Speaker 1 (59:07):
No, I think she was saying, like I certified she
she was dead, so did another doctor. And then basically
it was like, but would you have, like at the
moment right after death, like without being asked, like cracked
him open and like harvested his organs, like basically put
yourself in the position of these parents. I didn't get
the vibe that she didn't try to save him her
Oh I didn't.

Speaker 3 (59:27):
I didn't get that vibe.

Speaker 2 (59:29):
I was if it wasn't Zoe on that table and
it was Benjamin, there's no way she would have not
tried harder to save Zoe's life. She'd been in contact
with this boy. She knows this doctor, you know what
I mean, he knew the doctor. I took it as
she knows. She didn't try hard enough because if it
was her son, she wouldn't have announced.

Speaker 3 (59:49):
Him dead that fast. I did not.

Speaker 1 (59:52):
It wasn't even an hour in the hospital, you know
what I mean? Yeah, I think that basically what he's
let parents say bye the kid, You don't. Yeah, I
think that's what he's saying, though, is like she was dead,
she did what she could to save her.

Speaker 3 (01:00:05):
Was like the brain swelling could not have helped. She
was going to be a vet like.

Speaker 1 (01:00:08):
But at the same time, it's like we could have
asked the parents, like do you want to keep her
alive on machines? You know what I mean, like because
she was because they could have heart was still pumping
because of.

Speaker 3 (01:00:16):
Her heart was still pumping.

Speaker 1 (01:00:18):
That means she could have been left decision. But I
don't think that she didn't try to save her. I
don't think Zoe was ever going to come back.

Speaker 4 (01:00:26):
Oh.

Speaker 2 (01:00:27):
I think she would have tried harder if it was
her kid. And you're right though, the heart was bumping
like pumping, so she could have put Zoe on life
support given time. I mean, my friend when he donated
to Organs, he was held for four or five days
on life support so he could donate. So this is bullshit.
She didn't care about the parents. She didn't want to

(01:00:48):
risk them saying, no, she didn't care what they thought.
She wanted that heart and she didn't care she the
heart could have kept pumping.

Speaker 1 (01:00:57):
Yeah, I just would say, like most I would just
I think that's a little bit unrealistic and real Like,
I don't think that doctors are like thinking, hmm, if
I let this girl go, I can.

Speaker 2 (01:01:05):
She I don't think doctors are. She is and that's
what he proved in court. That has nothing to do
with saving lives. Lots of pediatric surgeons save lives. She
has a fucking heart on. I mean, she probably makes
half a millial year. Let's say she's like a New
York very maybe less.

Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
What do you think four hun gram She's donating fifty
five thousand dollars to just.

Speaker 2 (01:01:25):
One of the pediatric centers. She's donating tons of money.
This is not I don't I'm not saying doctors. I
think she's a criminal. I think she's getting paid for it. No,
I'm just saying it's not like I think doctors are
like letting people die to harvest or organs for kids
in Buffalo, But I think she is because I think

(01:01:46):
she's a criminal. M Okay, Yeah, I don't think it's
like I'm an organ downer. I don't think people would
like to be like I didn't think you were going.

Speaker 1 (01:01:54):
To be so I thought this was like one of
those what I.

Speaker 3 (01:01:56):
Mean, I like disagree with well.

Speaker 1 (01:01:58):
I thought it was gonna be one of those episodes
where it's like, oh, it is tough, because like you
could save someone with this, but like you.

Speaker 2 (01:02:04):
Know, she couldn't have later, so she could have two
days later, she could have let the parents say bye
to the kid kept driving.

Speaker 1 (01:02:10):
In this situation, but we don't know about the other
thirty one, the other thirty one. It's like the kids
could have died on the table, and it's like you
got to get those organs out now, or their organs,
but you have.

Speaker 2 (01:02:18):
Not gotten consent for thirty how But she also says
it's prime when the heart is still beating, so like
she likes that, what do you mean? Like to her,
it was like, oh, the heart is still beating, this
is great, take it out, but it's like it would
have been beating four hours from now.

Speaker 3 (01:02:33):
It definitely was.

Speaker 1 (01:02:34):
She made it definitely her like obsession, her obsession exactly
like I think she did let children die early. I
don't think, but I definitely as I was watching the episode,
was like, ooh, this is tough. Like I wasn't like,
I was like, sure, she's forging, but like we support
people all the time who break the law for reasons
that we think are righteous.

Speaker 3 (01:02:52):
Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (01:02:53):
We do so like I was like I was the
whole time I was watching. I was kind of like,
I mean, yeah, she definitely should have them. I would
be furious beyond belief if I wasn't asked. But like
it was also interesting, did we say the part about
how she said in twenty seven European countries, if they
if no one specifies that they don't want it, that's
implied consent.

Speaker 3 (01:03:14):
Yeah, I did say it. That's crazy.

Speaker 4 (01:03:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:03:16):
For some reason, I thought in the crime would probably
dive in, but well, I had crime is a little
bit different. The crime's not exact, the crimes a little
bit different. I took this bitch's facts, I go twenty countries.

Speaker 3 (01:03:27):
That's that.

Speaker 1 (01:03:28):
Like I can't look it up at all, but like
it is, yeah, I don't know, I don't well, I
mean it's like I think it's like more of a
it's like an existential argument of life.

Speaker 2 (01:03:40):
But it's not because the heart was bumping so like
for this one. Yes, so she's a.

Speaker 3 (01:03:46):
Sort of she could have been on life support for
a while, like and they.

Speaker 1 (01:03:50):
Could have prolonged half vision while she was on life support.

Speaker 2 (01:03:53):
Yeah, and said by like, I don't know, I think
it's fucks. I think, yeah, I don't think all doctors
are this, but I think she had like a personal
heart on because of her son. And I also think
if it was her son, she wouldn't have just been like, oh,
that's that to rip about.

Speaker 3 (01:04:10):
There's no why.

Speaker 1 (01:04:11):
But we also think that Benson should have flown away
with the heart if it's out her house. Correct. If
it's out, it's out. Benson made the wrong decision. Yeah,
for sure. I think I mean, you're wrong. I don't
think all of this is black and white.

Speaker 2 (01:04:24):
Like I always think Benson should have let it go
because there's nothing else to do, and Benson breaks the
law all the time.

Speaker 1 (01:04:30):
Yeah, Like we can get this doctor disbarred. We can
get or not disbarred, like medical license pulled or whatever,
Like we could see the hospital, Like there's ways you
can like punish the crime. That's happened, But like, why
let that heart just go? Are they putting it back
into Zoe to have her buried with it? Like, I
don't know, it's I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:04:49):
Yeah, but I feel for the parents not being able
to make a rational decision in the moments after their
daughter is dead.

Speaker 3 (01:04:55):
Totally. But that like the point that I wasn't thinking.

Speaker 1 (01:04:57):
Of when I was watching this is Yeah, their hearts
at least this patient and probably others patients hearts were
still beating. Then let's keep them on life support until
the parents can like take a day decide what to do.
Like I would definitely be swayed by the idea of
my child's like legacy helping another child live, you know,
like Jerry Orbach and his eyes. What did you ever

(01:05:19):
ride the subway where they would always have signs about
how Jerry Orbach gave his eyes He donated his eyes
when he died. No, and some two people can see
because of Jerry Orboch. I think he didn't donate his
cornea to one of them. It's like it was on
the subway all the time. We would like always choke
about Jerry Orbach's eyes. No, someone is seeing through Lenny

(01:05:39):
Briscoe's eyes at all times.

Speaker 2 (01:05:42):
But anyway, go on, there's just a little bit left.
So yeah, but she sighs. Someone keeps looking at her.
She's not answering. She will not answer. So now Nikki's
doing her closing statement. It's videos of kids alive, Like,
I get it. These kids didn't have organs, now they
have organs. And Stone is like, listen, checked off to
be an organ donor on your license, and the government

(01:06:03):
didn't make that choice for you, and neither did a
doctor because it's your body. And he calls her a zealot,
and that is motivated by her own personal tragedy, and
she stole Zoe's right of that with the strike of
a pen, knowing what she was doing was wrong, and
while her heart is still beating, she cut her open
and took it out. Nikki is saying that the ends

(01:06:24):
justify the means, but whose ends? So that's that she's
imposing her own morality. She did this by playing god.
And the jury has reached a verdict and guilty of
forgery in the second degree on all thirty two counts.
The parents look at each other. The judge is like,
damn difficult case.

Speaker 1 (01:06:42):
And bensons, I just can't believe that forgery carries a
seven year sentence. That's like rape, that's great. Like a
lot of rapes we've seen have been like five years,
you know. Yeah, Like you can hurt somebody and get
three years, you know, Yeah, that.

Speaker 2 (01:06:57):
Is weird'd ah gosh. Benson is in her office talking
to Lucy about mac and cheese and full awful Jesus Christ.
So Stone knocks knocks, Benson asks what's on his mind,
like the doctor's sentencing, what's up. Benson is like, wait,
you're seriously going to ask for jail time, and he says,
we need to set an example. And she goes for

(01:07:18):
all the progressive minded pediatric surgeons out there, and she says,
don't be a bully, and she is going to lose
her medical license. That's the worst punishment she can ever imagine.
And he says, I just got this job and I
don't want to look like a pushover, and Benson goes,
or maybe you're overcompensating for you know, not being in

(01:07:39):
the room when your father died. So now as they're talking,
Rollin's knock knocks and the boy from Buffalo did die
an hour ago, and I know what they're doing because
they let us see him and he was fucking cute.
He was a cute kench that's a gut punch. Stone
looks at Benson. Benson looks away. She starts to cry
and sits down on her desk because it is her fault.

(01:07:59):
She is so sad and that's stickwolf baby. I think
the doctors should go to jail, but I think Benson
should have let the heart go and those are my.

Speaker 1 (01:08:06):
But I think the doctors should go to jail for
maybe like a few years, not like three seven times
thirty two.

Speaker 3 (01:08:11):
Like I don't think she needs life. I don't either.

Speaker 1 (01:08:13):
She's they're gonna be able to please, like they're gonna
if Teresa Judice goes for a year. I mean, this
woman should get at least a year for forgery.

Speaker 2 (01:08:24):
But yeah, you think the doctor should have taken them
and it's fine that she was forging and it's all good.

Speaker 1 (01:08:30):
No, I guess I just think like the thirty one
other families like didn't even know, and she saved all
these lives and like they don't even know. So I
was just kind of like, you know, maybe her work
is sort of more but I don't know the ins
and outs of like if they're lying they're dead on
the table, or if the heart's still beating, that's different
to me. Like I'm just kind of like if if
a body is out like done, I don't want to

(01:08:53):
be buried, you know what I mean, Like I want
to be cremated. Like I don't like believe in like
the whole all the body stuff that happens after you're dead.
I just think somebody dies, they're gone, and like I
have no attachment to the body anymore. Like I have
been to open casket funerals and I'm just like, no,
I'm good, that's not the person I know, you know,
Like that's just a body like and so I just
feel like if we can help other people with that.

(01:09:16):
I mean, I've always been an organ downer. I believe
in it. So I don't know, but I agree consent
hugely important. I would be furious if someone just cut
open a loved one of mine. And I just think
it's like that woman seems like she could so easily
sit down and go my son died because he didn't
get a heart. It would save this child. Here's a
picture of Benjamin. Like you know what I mean, Like,

(01:09:38):
I don't even care. What kind of like emotional blackmail
you have to use get the consent, you know, Yeah
she didn't care. Yeah she didn't care. But okay, let's
get into the true crime because it's a little bit wild.

(01:09:58):
So first of all, this this is listed in a
couple places as being based on the death of Isabella Grosso,
and this feels like a part of SVU history that
I cannot believe.

Speaker 3 (01:10:07):
We don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:10:08):
Isabella Grosso was a seventeen year old high school student
and actress who was in the SVU episode Flight. If
you remember the very first episode where the SVU took
a crack at jeff Jeffrey Epstein.

Speaker 3 (01:10:21):
She plays one of their.

Speaker 1 (01:10:22):
Remember it's like the guy's name is Jordie and he
has a girl who's like his Galaine Maxwell, who like
collects all the girls for him, and she one of
these this girl played one of the girls who like
he was trafficking. And then she eventually like later lies
and says, no, my friend actually sexually assaulted him. Like
you can tell that she's lying because she's a trafficked

(01:10:44):
girl and they're probably offering her money. But she's like
on her way to France on a private jet. She's
like on a screen when they talked to her. I
remember this part of this episode specifically, and she had
shot the episode of SVU and then sadly a three
weeks before the episode came out. On January tenth of
twenty eleven, Isabella was tragically killed in a car accident

(01:11:07):
on Long Island. She was driving a convertible two thousand
and three Mercedes Benz. Her car crossed the double yellow
line and collided with a nineteen ninety eight Ford explore.
My high school car was a ninety four and that
was driven by an unidentified seventeen year old male, and
this is what happened. So records show that the ambulance
arrived within five minutes, and they there was a decision

(01:11:30):
made I don't know by who to airlift her, and
the helicopter was like a little bit delayed getting there.

Speaker 3 (01:11:36):
And then it.

Speaker 1 (01:11:36):
Took the helicopter forty six minutes to get Isabella to
the hospital.

Speaker 3 (01:11:43):
And why wouldn't the ambulance just take her? What the fuck?
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:11:47):
I don't know who made the call. It's really hard
to find in the articles. Her parents Michael and Linda
Grasso were sure that she would have survived if the
medical helicopter hadn't taken so long to get her to
the hospital.

Speaker 3 (01:11:57):
Kind of sip.

Speaker 1 (01:11:58):
This is like where it ties into like the little
girls sending the cops on a goose chase, Like maybe
they could have gotten her to the hospital earlier and
would have had a different outcome. And because I think
she was speaking in the ambulance, like she was talking
or not in the ambulance when ems first got to her,
and so they were sure she would have survived. They
don't understand why she wasn't just taken by ambulance. ABC
Eyewitness News from the New York area that I grew

(01:12:20):
up with. They actually timed the trip. They went out
at the same time at seven thirty one, and they
made it from the scene of the crash to the
hospital in twenty seven minutes and fifty two seconds, which
is eighteen minutes faster than the than the helicopter. So
that eighteen minutes could have meant a lot, you know.
So the County air medical vibe, Yeah, and Nasau County's

(01:12:40):
air medical guidelines specifically state quote a patient is to
be airlifted to a trauma center when transportation time quote
can be decreased by more than fifteen minutes, So technically
they violated their own protocols in airlifting her. And I
have no I mean, I'm sure they're not going to
say and the call was made by but like, I
don't know who made that call, if it was like
EMS workers or police or whatever. But the parents claim

(01:13:03):
the county was neglectful and to blame for her zeath,
they filed a notice to sue the county. They accused
Nassau County of covering it up, and they kept requesting
information that the county was just not giving them. And
then I found I tried to find what happened, and
I found one legal document about the case, but it
seemed to only be about the judge denying the defendant's
request for summary judgment. So the hospital or the EMS

(01:13:28):
like organization requested summary judgment, which we've talked about before,
and the judge said no. But that's all I found legally, Like,
I couldn't find, so I have a feeling that they
probably settled out of court. And I don't actually know
what happened with this, but I didn't know that like
an actress from an episode of SVU died and then
kind of an episode was based on it, or you know,

(01:13:51):
like she.

Speaker 3 (01:13:53):
Never saw her episode, which is so sad, you know,
really sad aspiring actress. I don't know why she crossed
the double yellow line either.

Speaker 2 (01:14:01):
I wonder what happens with the weird like if the
ambulance was there, like why not get in there and
start ta getting care. I feel like mentally people think
helicopters are faster. I think people are always like aft airlift,
you know, like I don't know, I really don't know why,
but they fucked up, and it's like the hospital maybe

(01:14:23):
in court could prove oh, the eighteen minutes didn't make
a difference because her situation was that she didn't have
brain swelling.

Speaker 1 (01:14:28):
She went into cardiac arrest. That was her situation while
she was in there. So but here is what this
is more based on. Okay, the Biomedical Tissue Services body
part theft scandal. Okay, let me introduce you to a
man named doctor Michael mastro Marino. He was a dental
surgeon in New Jersey who surrendered his license after he

(01:14:50):
became addicted to drugs. After that he got a license
to sell human tissue. Which this is a little bit
different than the episode because human tissue is anything, it
is not a major organ. So this does not involved hearts, kidneys, lungs.
This is stuff like tendons, ligaments, skin, bones, heart valves, corneas.

Speaker 3 (01:15:09):
Hello, Jerry Orbach.

Speaker 1 (01:15:11):
Apparently the industry of tissue donation is not well known
or understood compared to organ donation, and therefore it is
not heavily regulated. Like with organs, tissue is donated, so
there's not actually like I mean, maybe like a black market,
like people say there's a black market for like organs,
but so like even though you don't get money for

(01:15:32):
the actual tissue, you can charge facility fees. Do you
have to move that heart from one place to that
bone from one place to another, transportation fees, procurement fees,
and then once the parts are then turned into medical products,
like I was reading all this stuff, like people's bones
can be grown ground down into like a dust that
can be used in dental procedures. Like there's all kinds

(01:15:53):
of ways we use tissue in other medical procedures. It's
kind of gross, but it's true. It's happens and so
that's another thing like once now that it's turned into
a medical product, then it's being purchased. So there's money
flowing through the whole concept of tissue donation. So when
NPR reported on this story and this industry in twenty twelve,

(01:16:14):
they said it was a one billion dollar a year
industry tissue tissue like donation, and I would say harvesting,
and I tried, but I can't find more recent numbers
than that, but it would be safe to say that
in the last thirteen years it's gone over a billion.

Speaker 4 (01:16:29):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:16:30):
Mastro Marino's company was called Biomedical Tissue Services in Fort Lee,
New Jersey, and apparently business was booming because this was
reported reported as a four point six million dollar operation
that he was running. Master Marino, like the doctor in
this episode, went around the whole permission thing. And what
he did was he struck up deals with funeral homes

(01:16:53):
in New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania and paid them
one k per body. He would, also, liked the doctor
in this episode, fake paperwork that confirmed consent from the
deceased or their families.

Speaker 3 (01:17:05):
Now this might feel different to you.

Speaker 1 (01:17:08):
Because these people are in a funeral home ready to
be buried.

Speaker 3 (01:17:10):
It's different.

Speaker 1 (01:17:12):
But what's fucked up that this guy did is he
would take tissue from people that shouldn't have been used,
like people who had died from AIDS or cancer, and
he and had other like illnesses like hepatitis and stuff,
and he would fake the paperwork to look like they
died of something else. Famously, in this case, he actually
got the tissue from the body of a British journalist

(01:17:33):
named Alistair Cook, who hosted PBS's Masterpiece Theater. So this
is a person my parents are definitely fans of. This
man died of cancer in two thousand and four, and
Master Marino changed Cook's age from ninety five to eighty
five on the paperwork in the documentation, and also said
that he died of a heart attack rather than lung
cancer that had spread to his bones, like you might

(01:17:56):
want to use bone fragments or whatever, or of bones
that have been affected by cancer.

Speaker 3 (01:18:02):
So he also this is crazy detail.

Speaker 1 (01:18:07):
Sometimes in the bodies he would remove bones and replace
them with white plastic pipes like home Depot style. Well, actually,
fuck home Depot Low's style. They would just put these plastic,
cheap pipes that you use for plumbing and be like
replacement and then just sew the leg back up.

Speaker 3 (01:18:24):
So pretty fucked up.

Speaker 1 (01:18:26):
But I mean, yeah, people have been grave robbing since
the ancient old old days, but this is more super
fucked up because this guy's like running a ring.

Speaker 3 (01:18:36):
He's making a ton of money.

Speaker 1 (01:18:37):
In two thousand and six, after an eighteen month investigation
by the FDA and the Brooklyn DIA's office and.

Speaker 3 (01:18:44):
Wired than the FDA.

Speaker 1 (01:18:46):
Oh drug okay, yeah, food and Drug administration because these
are being turned into medical equipment or like medical product,
so I guess that's under their jurisdiction. But a one
hundred and twenty two count indictment came from the big
eighteen month investigation and was served on Michael mas Marino
as well as three funeral home directors, Joseph Masselli, Lee Crissetta,

(01:19:10):
and Christopher Aldorossi. Among the charges were enterprise corruption, body stealing,
unlawful dissection, opening graves, forgery, and other charges to which
they all initially pleaded not guilty. Prosecutors claim they stole skin,
bone and other tissues from up to one thousand bodies.

(01:19:30):
The DA called it so many I know. The DA
called it quote something out of a cheap horror movie.
The FDA had to ask hospitals after they discovered this,
to contact hundreds of patients who had received tissue from
Master Marino's company between four and five and have them
tested for aids, hepatitis, and syphilis. And they said that
the risk of contracting these diseases from tissue was low

(01:19:52):
but unknown, and people did contract things. Seven additional funeral
directors were added to the case and they all pleaded
guilty and agreed to cooperate with the investigation, and the
prosecutors in New Jersey thought, or maybe it was Brooklyn,
the prosecutors in this case thought that there were definitely
way more funeral directors attached, but I don't know if
they could find all of them. Eventually, Master Marino changed

(01:20:16):
his plea and pleaded guilty to body sealing, reckless endangerment,
and enterprise corruption in his plea, So maybe they dropped
some of the other like grave opening and dissection charges
and he just pleaded to those. In two thousand and eight,
at age forty four, he was sentenced to a minimum
of eighteen years and a maximum of fifty four years

(01:20:36):
in prison, which is such a wide range, like what
gets decided.

Speaker 3 (01:20:41):
Like how many organs, how many attised?

Speaker 1 (01:20:44):
But I know when it's like eighteen to twenty five,
like it's eighteen to fifty four, Like how do they
decide which one he's gonna do? That was his sentence
eighteen to twenty to fifty four. It ended up not mattering.
It ended up not mattering because he died in prison.
But at his sentencing, forty four year old Dana Ryan
spoke quote his sick, disgusting and appalling actions, all in

(01:21:06):
the name of greed, have devastated my family because Dana
got hepatitis B that she received from some stolen body
parts that were used on her lower spine.

Speaker 3 (01:21:15):
Operation.

Speaker 1 (01:21:16):
Master Marino told the court and victims and relatives, I
am sorry for the emotional pain I have caused. But
also he talked to NPR and said I misunderstood, so like,
I don't know how.

Speaker 3 (01:21:27):
Guilty this guy felt.

Speaker 1 (01:21:29):
He died in twenty thirteen at a hospital in New
York from metastatic liver cancer that had spread to his
brain and bones, which feels sort of like ironic because
like you wouldn't be able to probably harvest his tissues.
But yeah, so not quite as close to the actual thing. Well,

(01:21:49):
my thing is the helicopter guy in our episode.

Speaker 2 (01:21:53):
Do you think he works for the organ people or
is he just like a helicopter guy that only like.

Speaker 1 (01:22:00):
He probably works for a transportation service that just does.

Speaker 3 (01:22:02):
That, that just does organs.

Speaker 2 (01:22:05):
Yeah, yeah, okay, And he was willing to go to
jail for the cause he was passionate. Well, that's what
I was wondering if he was first a helicopter guy
or first an organ lover.

Speaker 1 (01:22:15):
You know, I think he's a helicopter guy, and as
he did it, he fell in love with the kids
and stuff and seeing how his helicopter work made kids alive.
But like this guy, like he must know he was
doing creepy bed stuff like I guess all criminals do.

Speaker 3 (01:22:30):
But it's like, bro, you're a freak master Marino. Yeah,
I mean, I guess.

Speaker 1 (01:22:35):
But he was also like, I'm making millions of dollars
and no one's the wiser because these people are like
their loved ones are going to be clothed and buried
the next time they see them. They're never going to
notice this stuff. Like I honestly don't even know how
they got busted. I mean the investigation. Maybe they went
under cover was an eighteen month investigation. Yeah, thank you
spooky anyway, I mean.

Speaker 3 (01:22:56):
Yeah, but this was fun, not the crime. It's not fun.

Speaker 2 (01:22:59):
But I'm still I like when we're all conflicted, and
I wonder, I wonder if people are gonna come for
my ass if I'm wrong.

Speaker 1 (01:23:08):
Well, we don't have a guest today, so let's go
right into our post mortem about this. Yeah, I guess
I can't stop. I'm still thinking. But yeah, she played
it well the real life.

Speaker 2 (01:23:18):
I guess I'm glad there was no Yeah, for some reason,
I'm not as distraught by this guy.

Speaker 1 (01:23:22):
I just think he's a little gremlin. Yeah, yeah, he's
a little grave robbing gremlin. Okay, Well, post mortem on Dare.
I mean, we've sort.

Speaker 2 (01:23:34):
Of already and we've never disagreed like this.

Speaker 3 (01:23:38):
Well, I mean, I just I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:23:41):
I just the whole time I was watching it, I
was just like, but I didn't realize her still pumping
heart is a pretty big I would not have wanted
my kids like fully pumping. It's like we gotta pull
the plug as a family, say goodbye. Then we walk
out and you can take the Morgans you know what
I mean, I'm not allowing that kind of nonsense, but

(01:24:03):
I'm just like very pro organ donation also, but I
don't think that's the issue of this episode. It's like
more I'm an organ donor. Yeah, it's just more it's
the consent of it all.

Speaker 2 (01:24:13):
Yeah, it's just you can't forge documents, you can't take
organs without consenting.

Speaker 1 (01:24:18):
The episode is trying to make you think that you
can if it's for the right reasons, you know. Like now,
the older person who fucked up is Benson.

Speaker 3 (01:24:28):
I mean that I like that.

Speaker 1 (01:24:31):
I disagree with what happened, like Ben, because I disagree
with what the doctor did.

Speaker 3 (01:24:35):
But like I'm just saying, Benson's the one where I'm like.

Speaker 2 (01:24:38):
You, fuck, you fucked up. You should have let him go,
You should have let him go. Yeah, that boy did
die and it is your fault.

Speaker 1 (01:24:46):
Like sorry, and three years he's been waiting three years.

Speaker 3 (01:24:53):
Ugh, And he was so cute.

Speaker 2 (01:24:56):
But she's an incredible actress, Like I'm a big fan
of her perform in this and like the way she
spoke and the lines were like no one's talked to
Benson like that about professional courtesy in this cool way
and she seems more powerful than McGrath and all these
loud blowhards too. Yeah, she did carry herself with a
god complex.

Speaker 1 (01:25:16):
Yeah, and like I liked how she just very subtly
when they bring up her son, you see her kind
of like break a little bit because she's been so
tough since till then, and so like.

Speaker 3 (01:25:26):
I am completely correct in my beliefs.

Speaker 1 (01:25:28):
And then it's like, but she doesn't go, oh, you're right,
like I fucked She just kind of realizes that she's
fucked up, I think, And then when she gets her sentence,
I think she.

Speaker 3 (01:25:37):
Realizes she really fucked up.

Speaker 1 (01:25:38):
Well, I have a feeling my prediction is that they
give her like eighteen months with good behavior. She's out
in like nine or something. Well, she plaied out, made
a deal. Now yeah she's been found guilty. I don't know,
but no thirty two times seven. Yeah, it was a
good episode. It's what I've been dying to do for forever.

(01:25:59):
But I also hate those little girls. That's another thing
I disagree with. It's an accident. No, those girls need
to be charged with what's the thing, fucking up with
a police investigation?

Speaker 3 (01:26:09):
Yeah, interference with of an investigation.

Speaker 1 (01:26:12):
Right, like lied, yeah, and your friend was lying there,
you dumb bitches, And what are you doing When the
cops went all the way to the delivery guy's apartment
and came back. The whole time, you were like, should
we tell someone that our friend is lying on the
gym floor with her fucking leg bent behind her back?
Like I don't know, I understand being scared to tell

(01:26:34):
the truth, but that just seems but you never do
that when somebody's hurt, Like I'm sorry, Like I just
remember when I was younger, it was like if somebody
got hurt, it was like we stuck out and this happened,
and we got like we gotta you know, you gotta
get somebody help, Like yeah, like I'm not I don't
want to get in trouble. I would lie to like
my fucking dying day, but to my parents to not
get in trouble, but not when it was like somebody's
health and safety was involved, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:26:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:26:58):
But anyway, this episode, watch out who your kids are
friends with and be an organ donor if you can.
I don't think it makes them stop operating on you
because like in the end, it's like you don't even
know that this stuff is compatible. Like do you think
if it's like a heart, it has to be a match. Well, yeah,

(01:27:19):
that's why you had to wait three years. Anyway, let's
move on to or what would Sister Peg Do? And
listen to have any final thoughts.

Speaker 3 (01:27:25):
Well, yeah, it just reminds you.

Speaker 2 (01:27:26):
Yeah, it's like when the kids are dying of alcohol
poisoning or I don't know, we have drugs, so we
shouldn't say something. And it's like, you really think someone
should die because you're scared of getting in trouble. Yeah,
that's the thing, like you. Yeah, this episode so many
gray area things. I wonder what our listeners feel about
the two girls, about Benson and about the doctor.

Speaker 1 (01:27:48):
So let know they're gonna let us know, they're gonna
be in the DMS, letting us know, let us know.
But yeah, let's move on to what would Sister Peg Do?
This is our weekly segment where we direct you to
an organization, a book, a movie, a something, to an
article to give you more information about what we talked about.

(01:28:10):
And I just wanted to point you guys to organ
donor dot gov. You can learn how donation works, who
can donate and read several life saving donation stories, Plus,
you can sign up to be an organ donor if
you are not already so for more info, head over
to organ Donor dot gov and that will be posted
in our show notes as well as in a story
and saved in our WWSPD highlight on our Instagram, which is.

Speaker 3 (01:28:32):
That's Messed Up Pod. Go give us a follow.

Speaker 2 (01:28:35):
Thank you for that, and next week we will be
doing Wanna Be from season eleven, episode twenty three.

Speaker 1 (01:28:42):
We're so excited join us again. Yay, Yeah, thank you
guys for listening. Bye.

Speaker 2 (01:28:56):
That's Messed Up as an exactly right production.

Speaker 1 (01:28:59):
If you have compliment once you'd like to give us
or episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an
email it That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com. Listen
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Speaker 2 (01:29:11):
Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod,
and follow us personally at Kara Klank and at glitter Cheese.

Speaker 1 (01:29:19):
As always, please see our show notes for sources and
more information.

Speaker 2 (01:29:22):
Thank you so much to our senior producer Casey O'Brien
and our associate producer Christina Chamberlain, and to.

Speaker 1 (01:29:29):
Our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cottner.
And to Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly
gen Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive
producers Georgia hard Start, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer and everybody
at Exactly Right Media dut dun

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