Desperate w/ Rob Estes

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Of the law and Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.

Speaker 3 (00:09):
These are our stories.

Speaker 4 (00:10):
Done done, Okay, that's messed up In SVU podcast.

Speaker 1 (00:31):
I'm Liza Traeger, I'm Kara Klank. You guys know the drill.
It's SVU episodes, it's true crimes, it's guests and first
it's gab and listen.

Speaker 3 (00:45):
I'm sure you have things to tell me.

Speaker 1 (00:47):
But I did just get a message before we got
on this recording from a listener who said that they
cannot divulge their sources, but they heard that Dick Wolf
was in a very quiet meeting and his phone went
off and the tone was the SVU theme song. So
I don't care if it's true, it's gossip. It's fact
to me, and it's funny to me. That's really funny.

Speaker 3 (01:11):
It's awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
It's like every time the phone rings, he's reminded of
a new more money.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
He's about yeah, exactly everything, Like I bet he gets
a piece of the ring tone, you know, Like even
that he's like, yep, one hundred percent.

Speaker 3 (01:25):
We should fucking find the composer, dude.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
Oh yeah, you know everyone's doing the dances and the
fun videos and you know the guy and the piano,
but like, who's the composer?

Speaker 1 (01:36):
And also why is the SVU theme song so much
better than the regular and the criminal intent? They're all
kind of variations on the same one, but SF you
just slaps harder. No one's doing dances to original on order. No,
it is just the best, like all together.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
I don't think original recipe thought that sv would kick
them off their throne, you know, but like it is
what it is.

Speaker 3 (02:01):
Yeah, it's fucking good. Oh.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
I ran into a good friend of ours, Mindy Tucker.
Oh yeah, and god, I got the best photo. I
can't you, guys, you don't even know what's coming. She's
the best photographer in the game. I would never hire
anyone else but her, to be honest, And she invented,
I think, comedy photography in the New York comedy scene
for sure before I even got here.

Speaker 3 (02:22):
I knew about her before I even moved to New York.

Speaker 2 (02:25):
And now it's really with the Internet become a thing
where a lot of people do it, and a lot
of people are talented at it, but no one makes
people look better.

Speaker 3 (02:32):
She was the first. Yeah, no, she is the best.

Speaker 1 (02:36):
And I just ran into her husband when I was
in the city over the summer because he does stand up,
which I didn't.

Speaker 2 (02:41):
Know, and he was great. Well, Kara, she wanted me
to send you a message. What that She listens to
the pod and she was really happy what we said
about the Saudi Already Arabia Comedy Festival and then she
felt so isolated and disappointed in people and that we
made her feel heard.

Speaker 3 (02:56):
Mindy baby anytime.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
Because she's just rejected that she has been doing for
a decade because she's.

Speaker 1 (03:05):
Putting her money where her mouthress. Yeah, but yeah, so
shout out to her. She's the best. And if you're
in New York or anywhere getting married or have an
event or or a comp or you need a headshot.
The only reason she didn't do my wedding is because
she was invited to my wedding.

Speaker 3 (03:18):
That's yeah, like she didn't. I like she was. She
didn't do my wedding photos because she was invited.

Speaker 1 (03:24):
But what was I gonna say if any of you
have been to our live shows and you've gone on
my venmo and you're like, is that you with the
brown hair?

Speaker 3 (03:30):
That's a Indy.

Speaker 2 (03:31):
A lot of when you get a Mindy, you keep
the Mindy as your like profile for a while, like
it used to be.

Speaker 3 (03:37):
Yeah, if you got a Mindy, it's like a huge deal.

Speaker 1 (03:40):
Well, I hope that he goes back and listens to
our episode where we interviewed James or Baniac because I
told him about how she has such a sweet little
Southern accent because she's from Alabama and she'll be like,
oh my god, I'm at James or Bainiac and we
told him that, and you know, now it's now, it's
on It's on podcast film forever.

Speaker 2 (04:02):
The way we get to flex about our guests. I
did a Devin Walker's music podcast, so if it hasn't
come out, like look out for that. But I name
Dropp because I was talking about stuff and I was like, well,
you know when Wycliffe did the pod and he does,
excuse me, it's like so to flex. I did meet
a Bravo celebrity last night. You don't watch below Deck,

(04:24):
but I met Fraser. Oh okay, I've heard the name
and I did last night.

Speaker 1 (04:28):
He was so like, is he on the one with
Captain Jason or is he a captain Sandy guy or
is he with the old guy Lee is gone?

Speaker 3 (04:38):
He's sandy.

Speaker 2 (04:38):
I've only watched two of his seasons when he started,
but now he's like full chiefs too. I mean, he
looked and smelled incredible. He really did. It was an honor.
And then I also saw Jeffrey self last night. Oh,
I hadn't seen, I would say in years.

Speaker 1 (04:59):
He I thought of when Diane Keaton passed away. I
literally thought it.

Speaker 2 (05:02):
So I obviously brought that up, and he goes, no,
I was taking a nap or he was reading, he
was doing something, and he said he woke up to
eighty eight texts and that he just saw. I was like,
thinking of you. You're the first person I thought of,
and he goes, great, Cola Scola died.

Speaker 3 (05:16):
This is because they're best friends.

Speaker 2 (05:20):
Jeffrey with Cole's date to the Tony's And if you're
unfamiliar with Jeffrey's work, probably one of the smartest people
I've ever met.

Speaker 3 (05:26):
And funny, it's so funny.

Speaker 2 (05:28):
But yeah, and then so I don't know if it
was relief that it was Diane Keyan, but like, obviously
never thought about.

Speaker 3 (05:37):
They're very connected.

Speaker 1 (05:38):
Yes, yes, someone that wait. I don't think I told
you that. I watched The Drop.

Speaker 3 (05:45):
Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (05:45):
So Meghan Fay, he was out last night too. Oh okay.
Jeffries is the waiter in that movie, and he's so funny.
I really had a star studded night. It's all coming
back to me.

Speaker 2 (05:55):
Yeah, Meghan Fay, he was out last night with her
boyfriend Leo Woodhull Woodhull And yeah, I partied with my
I forgot, I forgot.

Speaker 1 (06:03):
Yeah, But I watched The Drop on a flight. I
liked it. Yeah, I liked it. I thought it was cool.
And it's like a bottle movie, like it all takes
place basically in two places and but mostly one.

Speaker 2 (06:13):
It's also just captivating, talented, hot, and so nice and
talks about our podcast so kindly.

Speaker 3 (06:21):
Yeah, and it was photos from last night. Oh my god.
I love how you're piecing it all together.

Speaker 1 (06:28):
Now, what other guests of our podcast did you run
into that you forgot?

Speaker 3 (06:33):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (06:33):
I have no photos, Okay, so that's interesting. But yeah,
I definitely had a great time. I did a game show,
Matt and Dave's Yeah, SHRAMADNSA And it's just they're really smart.

Speaker 1 (06:50):
There is a winner my strake. I won and it's controversial.

Speaker 2 (06:55):
I did think the other guy deserved it, and so
that's tough.

Speaker 3 (06:59):
I drink. Did you have Devin or a Meal?

Speaker 2 (07:01):
I had a meal, okay, and they both were great,
but like a Meal lost last time because he didn't
know the words to the lip sync and he didn't
know the words again to the lip sync, and so
to me, that was insane and I was like a
toddler and Tiara Mom I was in the audience yelling
at him, like mouth, what was the song Olivia Dean?

(07:25):
I mean, it's a weird song. They picked their two hip.
It was like it's a woman that's opening for Sabrina Carpenter.
But Matt said MSG was sad, like people were there first.

Speaker 1 (07:35):
So she has a big hit. Yeah, I've heard of
her on Who Weekly. Yeah, they've they've talked about her.

Speaker 2 (07:40):
So I had I listened to it a bunch and
they're like, we listened to it. I go, did you
look at the lyrics? Did you google the lyrics? And
they both stared at me, and Devin has a podcast
about lyrics. I go, So you just thought you were
going to listen to the song without looking at the
lyrics in front.

Speaker 3 (07:54):
Of your face. Oh my god, it's like straight. Oh
my god.

Speaker 2 (07:58):
There was a photo of Ashley Tisdale and they can't
get help from their coaches, and the straight men have
to like, guess who it is? It was Ashley Tisdale,
Emil wrote Avril Levine, question mark.

Speaker 5 (08:13):
It was.

Speaker 3 (08:14):
And then we have to do a fashion moment.

Speaker 2 (08:16):
We have to like go backstage and cut up a
T shirt and like design it to honor their straight culture.

Speaker 3 (08:20):
Right.

Speaker 2 (08:20):
So we're working on this thing and I want to
do a backless thing and then in front, and we're
thinking and I go, oh, how about we do the
j Lo Green Versace dress.

Speaker 1 (08:29):
And he goes, oh, can you pull up? Can you
pull up a photo of that? I go, it's not
burned into your brain. I go, it's the reason Google
images was invented.

Speaker 2 (08:37):
He goes, for real, I go, the fact that you
don't know this is not gay or straight like this is.
He's also young, he's like twenty five or twenty six,
but like, yeah, it's just the straits are really funny.

Speaker 3 (08:54):
Yeah yeah, yeah them straights, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:56):
This straight they're just it's just different culture, it really is,
but and then it's dry race board secrets and us
two teams had the same answer also three times but
also wrong screwp mind but incorrect, but also cuoma is
an answer for one. So I'm excited I got it right.

(09:17):
So I'm like celebrating my sign up and I go,
can please nobody take a photo and post that please
of me holding a thing that says cuoma.

Speaker 3 (09:28):
I forgot the name of this. Casey had Junior g
to listen.

Speaker 2 (09:30):
Someone explained a horror movie to me, scariest thing I've
ever heard. Could me and Meggie, we couldn't even take
it in. I have to watch it. So basically, this
woman you probably know it. This woman and her husband
moved to Ireland in some remote, remote village. He's a doctor,
so he's working an overnight at the doctor.

Speaker 3 (09:49):
What is it called adity? Yes, I just watch it. Wow,
Casey only watch it last week?

Speaker 1 (09:56):
Sentence Okay, so tell me how you let me just
describe it to a kara because it is so this is.

Speaker 6 (10:01):
A great I know exactly what you're setting up and
this is a great conversation.

Speaker 3 (10:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:05):
So she hears something right, so she hears something down
the route whatever. So she goes outside to check it
out or check the mail something. She goes outside. When
she goes back in, immediately the door bell rings. She
you know, who is it? They go, hey, I just
saw a man go into your house while you're outside.

Speaker 3 (10:24):
Oh God, chills. And so we were.

Speaker 2 (10:27):
Debating what we would do, and people were like, I'd
go outside and go I would never go outside. I
would like sit leaned against the door with a weapon
so I can go outside.

Speaker 3 (10:37):
But if someone's here, I don't know. That's what I
don't know.

Speaker 6 (10:40):
Okay, Casey, this is we just had this conversation, and
I think Tricia came up with the best solution. So
because the guy outside the door, who's like, I just
saw a guy run into your house, he seems panicked,
and he'd like is saying he wants to help her.
He's like, let me in so I can get or.

Speaker 1 (10:59):
Why doesn't that I just call it? Are we in
a no cell phone, we're in the country.

Speaker 3 (11:03):
We're in the country. You're out.

Speaker 2 (11:05):
But to me, my thing I have not seen it
is if you're this remote in the country, who's this
guy to even be here to see?

Speaker 6 (11:12):
That's why it's like frightening. This is what Tricia said
she would do. She said she would stay inside the
house and say, if you really want to help me,
here are my car keys. Open the trunk, lock yourself
in the trunk, and leave the keys outside of the trunk.
Then I will come in the car with you locked
in the trunk. We'll drive to the police station together

(11:33):
I'll let you out. WHOA, I thought that was a
pretty good solution.

Speaker 3 (11:37):
Damn, you married a genius.

Speaker 2 (11:39):
Yeah, damn, she really fucking thought that through. I have
to be it's the guy who I can't wait to
send him a voice note. That's such a good one.
But we were all like so scared last night.

Speaker 3 (11:49):
It's scary. It's a good movie. It's really good. It's
is it American? The movie? It's Irish. It's Irish.

Speaker 1 (11:54):
Ooh, I love that auditydy Okay, well wait, speaking of Irish,
there's an Irish stew on uh below deck that I
don't watch below Deck, but I did watch the new
Salt Lake.

Speaker 3 (12:07):
Have you? You probably haven't seen it, right, because I've
been ring.

Speaker 2 (12:11):
I'm probably two or three behind, honestly on most Bravos stuff. Yeah,
it's really crazy to see the two genres mix together
because the Housewives of Salt Lake go on the boat
with the hot captain Jason and all the stews, but
then they're just screaming at each other NonStop, and the
stews keep being like dinner, the chef wanted to meet you,

(12:31):
and they will not stop screaming to meet the chef.
They just keep screaming at each other and nothing's getting anywhere.
It's so crazy, and I think Lisa Barlow has run
out her value on the show.

Speaker 3 (12:45):
That's my opinion.

Speaker 2 (12:45):
But dude, you know, if you if you can never
take accountability, that's not interesting to me. If you never
back down, you're always that you can't apologize, Like, it's
just not fun to even want.

Speaker 1 (12:57):
I don't like it, and I don't like watching any
on the Housewives really that thinks they're like too She
almost thinks she's too good to be on it, Like
she says shit like you guys are lucky to hang
out with me, like she truly delusionally thinks she is
like an A list celebrity, And it's so crazy.

Speaker 2 (13:14):
It's like, well, Benn Walker isn't calling you his best friend? Yeah, yeah,
I hung out with Blake Lively. I'm like, I don't
think Blake's telling anyone. She's thank you for a new
best friend. They do get like celebrities do watch it,
you know, Like that's what's crazy.

Speaker 1 (13:30):
It's like it's hard to watch all they're not like
we love Lisa the most. It's like even if Rihanna
is like texting Heather, Heather's not the one that's like
I'm better than all of you, you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (13:41):
Like, wait, this reminds me.

Speaker 2 (13:43):
So during game show, I'm like trying to win and
I'm showing the outfit and things aren't.

Speaker 3 (13:48):
It's just not going our way in my mind.

Speaker 2 (13:51):
So then I go, you know, guys, just so you know, backstage,
she looked at me and said, I'd like to keep
the song please, like Valentine that and so then Dave
Masni's boyfriend later goes, I can't believe he said that.

Speaker 3 (14:05):
That was so cool.

Speaker 2 (14:06):
I go, I said that if he didn't know who
Jay looked like, he didn't say that, he goes. I
thought that's the reason he should win because he quoted
this deep cut Valentina quote.

Speaker 7 (14:16):
No I was lying. I lie. Oh my god, Smart
didn't know Smart you have to get your knowledge on them.
I know, yeah it was. It's such a good concept,
it's so fun. I wish their TV show wasn't on Quibi.

Speaker 1 (14:33):
Yeah, I say, maybe I can get another go somewhere
else because it's just so well.

Speaker 3 (14:39):
I think gay is out.

Speaker 2 (14:40):
Unfortunately in this regime, they're like they're not really buying
gay projects.

Speaker 1 (14:44):
But also like where is anybody? Where is anybody playing?
Like a fun alternative kind of game show thing like
no one has had done.

Speaker 2 (14:52):
And it's also England because I was talking to the
comics and they're like there's a lot less panel and
chat shows there.

Speaker 3 (14:56):
There's just less production.

Speaker 2 (14:58):
Like when people don't have food, they're not going to
go to perform. You know, we're going to eventually be
performing for the rich or not again. I don't know,
like I don't know what's gonna happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
we'll keep doing this.

Speaker 1 (15:15):
Yeah, this will be We're not going anywhere you can
go to that's messed up live dot com to get
to Lisa's website, to get to our merch. I mean,
we have new merch coming, but I don't know when
it's supposed to come out in time to get for Christmas,
so keep an eye on that. We'll obviously announce it
on our Instagram as well. And then yeah, you know,

(15:40):
throw us a rating, tell a friend, I don't know,
let's get started.

Speaker 3 (15:43):
This is a good episode. Oh and classic.

Speaker 2 (15:47):
I also would like all the listeners to know that
Radiator season has commenced. Oh yeah, that means starts right
or yes, yep, you got it. So if you hear
a banging, no you didn't. No, there we're fighting happening
at Lisa's apartment. That's always the comment. And I came
in in a switch and I immediately to put on

(16:08):
a brawl like it is steamy as fuck. And the bank,
the banking's actually okay, it'll you know, but yeah, it's started.

Speaker 3 (16:15):
It started to see me New York Weather.

Speaker 2 (16:17):
All right, Hey, so my audio is fucked because I
had buzzing wires and so we had to use backup audio.
So if it doesn't sound as perfect as you usually
hear it, it is fully my fault.

Speaker 1 (16:30):
And it's just gonna sound like I'm normal talking to
Lisa and she's at the bottom of the ocean.

Speaker 3 (16:37):
No, I think it's gonna be fine.

Speaker 2 (16:38):
The wires buzz I just don't have the space or time,
but I'm looking at all these stuffed animals and cups like, yeah,
I just I don't know.

Speaker 3 (16:52):
We'll fix the buzz. We're gonna fix the buzz.

Speaker 2 (16:54):
Well, yeah, we'll be saying I moved some things around
so it won't happen again, I hope.

Speaker 1 (16:58):
And last thing, quick reminder that we do have new
merch up in the shop. Go to That's Messed Up
live dot com. Go to our shop link. You got
to get yourself a Lois Louise Louise shirt asap, a
perfect Christmas gift for yourself or another TMU fan in
your life. And so let's get going. Today's episode all right,

(17:25):
Today the day is here. We are doing Desperate Season four,
episode eighteen.

Speaker 3 (17:32):
We've been wanting to do this one.

Speaker 2 (17:34):
It is so funny to have this podcast because it's
like I always want to do these episodes, and we're
like five years in more and there's still episodes where
I'm like, how have we not done this? I'm obsessed
with this episode. I would put it in my top
twenty five. I think I can't believe we're doing it.
It's my favorite Tommy in the Tommy universe. It is
like it's It gives me chills. This whole episode gives

(17:56):
me chills. I love it, and I cannot wait.

Speaker 3 (17:59):
Do we call our listeners Tommy's Yes, the Tommies wait,
I love that.

Speaker 1 (18:07):
Hi, Tommy's Yeah, the TMU Tommy's wait, the TMU Tommy's.

Speaker 3 (18:12):
I think that's it.

Speaker 1 (18:15):
That is it, And we can make merch that said hello.
That's like a name tag that says hello, my name
is Tommy.

Speaker 2 (18:20):
Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, oh
my god. I hope you guys like it. Okay, we'll see,
we'll see if it sticks. Maybe it'll be our Christmas miracle.

Speaker 1 (18:31):
Guys weigh in if you want to be the TMU Tommy's.
I think this could be it. This could be it,
This could be it.

Speaker 3 (18:36):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (18:37):
We can our Tommies, I can. I can make little
grids with all the Tommies I mean. And it'll also
be in honor of the person who's been tracking it
for all these years as well.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
Yes, oh my god fully, But okay, So we open
on a very tense scene. An old lady in a
robe is like knocking frantically on an apartment door, going
open the door, honey, you can do it, like there's
a kid in there. As firemen Russian, she tells them
there's a kid trapped in there, and then they she

(19:07):
goes Mikey stand back, stand back, and that.

Speaker 3 (19:10):
Like got me confused. I was like, is this the
episode I was thinking of? But it is. So they
knock the door down.

Speaker 1 (19:16):
They find food burning on the stove, so it's not
like it's a raging fire, but you know, and the
firemen are like, everything's clear, We're good. And then they
go and they find little Mikey and he's like curled
up in his pjs, huddling in a corner, and he's
covered in blood and they're like, the kid is injured.
And then they find his mom, we think, in bed,
covered in blood and barely breathing. Aggressive. So then we

(19:40):
cut to the hospital where a doctor is filling in
Benson and Stabler. She's in critical condition, multiple subdural hematomas.
She's in surgery, unclear she'll make it. Genital trauma shows
she was raped and sodomized, no fluids.

Speaker 3 (19:53):
I mean awful. Mikey is okay physically.

Speaker 1 (19:57):
The blood on him was all his moms, but obviously
i'mtionally he's fucked. Benson is in her bieber Swoop era.
She goes in to talk to Mikey. He may have
seen the attacks. She's like, how old are you? He
holds up six fingers. Did you see your mom get hurt?

Speaker 3 (20:13):
She asks? He nods.

Speaker 1 (20:15):
He touches Olivia's badge, like, but he's not speaking, like
he's not speaking any words, and then Stabler grabs her,
and Olivia is like, you know, maybe he'll open up
more when he sees his mom and can talk to her.

Speaker 3 (20:26):
And Dunet done, the mom just died.

Speaker 1 (20:29):
Credits Early Seasons, they get to the fucking chase. I mean,
like we're a minute, we're a minute of a cold
open and we're at the credits. Okay, so now very sad.
We're at the victims apartment and this kid is cute,
the little Mikey.

Speaker 3 (20:41):
He's cute.

Speaker 1 (20:42):
At the victim's apartment, they can't find a handbag or
a wallet, so they think this is like a purp
who robbed her. But this guy was careful, no prince,
no seamen hair. It's like, I think their point is
like if you go into an apartment to rob and
then you decide to commit a sex crime. You're not
probably being careful to like clean up your fluids and
like you no not leave any evidence. You're probably a

(21:03):
sloppy criminal if you're doing something like that. And they're like, well,
it's a ground floor apartment with shitty locks. It looked
like he jacked open one of the windows with a screwdriver.
And then there's a little dexter type man there who's
breaking down all the blood spatter.

Speaker 2 (21:17):
He's like, look, this is a tiny detail, but did
you notice that Stabler's tie was tucked into his button
down shirt. Wait into the shirt, like in the between
the third and fourth button from the top, his tie
is tucked in.

Speaker 1 (21:35):
I think that guys had never that he don't drip
on anything like I think guys do that if they're
doing something messy, Like maybe he thought it would like
since he's looking at the crime scene, like he tucks
it in.

Speaker 2 (21:46):
I just had never noticed that it looked a little sloppy.
But I'm sure, yeah, you're right.

Speaker 1 (21:50):
It's like like, I don't know, I feel like it's
the way guys. It's the way that guys unbutton their
jacket when they sit down, but then they button it
back up when they stand up. That's like a guy
thing to do, like because you can't sit with your
button open shut. Yeah, it feels like there's all this
like weird suit like men's apparel etiquette that.

Speaker 3 (22:10):
I don't really know very much about. But oh my god.

Speaker 2 (22:12):
You know how I was betrayed by my laundry woman
a few months ago, and she's fragrance when she shouldn't. Yes,
so my coffee girls like, hey, I'm gonna go get tailored.
I'm going to go to the end of the block.
I go, don't go there. I think you'll get fucked.
And I go go to this place. I go, this
guy is legit, don't go to her. And then today
I went and got coffee and she goes, I should

(22:33):
have listened to you, and I go, yeah, oh yeah,
Well she goes, she's really funny that I go, yeah, no,
she's very funny and personable. She's lost dozens of my socks,
and I continue to go, so, yeah, she's got a
flare for sure.

Speaker 3 (22:49):
That kept us going back.

Speaker 1 (22:51):
But oh man, personality is not going to take you
all the way. I guess when it's your loan dramat
you gotta have the socks. So you don't have to
have the socks. You can't just I just don't want
to be poisoned. And then that's true. The socks you
didn't even care about. No, just the poisoning.

Speaker 3 (23:09):
Yeah, some of my best socks. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:14):
Okay, So little Dexter guy is there and he's breaking
down the blood spatter. He's like, look, you can tell
from these patterns that he struck her twice with the
lamp and then I mean, awful fucking details headed your way,
a classic get ready to get sad. After the sexual assault,
he beat her even more, which was like pointless because
she was already unconscious. So all that information, plus the

(23:38):
fact that all the blows were like to her face
stablers like this seems personal. You know. This is like
where regular cops would come in and be like it's
a robbery gone bad, or like with an assault, but
like these guys are the pros and they're like, no,
this is like a rage attack of somebody who knew her.

Speaker 3 (23:54):
So maybe Mikey slept through the assault.

Speaker 1 (23:56):
Benson offers in a bit of wishful thinking, and then nope, unfortunately,
more sadness.

Speaker 3 (24:01):
They find a peace stain in the hallway.

Speaker 1 (24:04):
So they can tell that the kid just stood by
the doorway watching the attack happen and was so terrified
that he beat himself Back to the neighbor lady who
love her sounds like she smokes, eats cigarettes for breakfast, lunch,
and dinner. She is like, I was trying to help Mikey,
but I didn't hear anything, like the smoke woke me up. Like,
and she goes, oh, the woman's name was Dana. They

(24:27):
moved in a month ago. You go ask the landlord.
I bet his office in Midtown is a lot nicer
than this dump. So then at the landlord's office, this
guy shady laylord. He's like, yeah, her name's Dana maguire.
And then the guy is stonewalling them. They're like, okay, great,
give us her rental application, credit check, et cetera.

Speaker 3 (24:44):
And he's like, oh, I don't have any of that.
I'm busy, blah blah blah.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
And then Benson's like, cool, I actually work with somebody
who gets slumlords, like prosecute some lords and got the
last one to his punishment was living six months in
one of his units. And this breaks him. He immediately
admits this Montal was off the books.

Speaker 2 (25:05):
He's like, it reminds you of the Aaron Brokovitch water
see now, or she's like, and those that water has
been brought in special for you from Hinkley.

Speaker 3 (25:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:15):
Yeah, Aaron Brokovich clips have been showing up in my
feed and I watch There's no way I even watch
one less than three times in a row. They know,
it's just nice to see it. And you're like, yeah,
of course she won that oscar? Are you fucking kidding me?

Speaker 3 (25:28):
They know what you like, Yeah, yeah, too wrong? What
is it? Too wrong? That's all you got wrong? Too
wrong food. Thanks for everything, Julie Numart.

Speaker 2 (25:37):
No, no, it's a line. She goes, we got off
on the wrong foot, and she goes, that's what all
you have? Two wrong feet and fucking ugly shoes.

Speaker 3 (25:49):
All right.

Speaker 1 (25:50):
So the guy's like, oh, I could never I'll tell
you everything.

Speaker 3 (25:55):
He's like, look, this rot was off the books.

Speaker 1 (25:58):
The mom paid for the woman paid for cash up
front for three months, and Stabler's like, give it up,
we need more info, or we'll tell the irs about
your little cash payment situation. And he's like, okay, okay,
she showed me her id and I did memorize it,
like he knows exactly this woman what her ID was
address on her ID and it was the three hundred
block of Central Park West, and Benson clocks that and

(26:20):
it's like nice memory, asshole, and he's like, yeah, names
I don't care about, but I never forget a prime
piece or real estate. So he clocked it because three
hundred block of Central Park West is like pretty nice
at the McGuire I would say almost every block of
Central Park West is very nice. At the McGuire residence
on Central Park West, this douchey guy opens the door

(26:40):
and he's like yeah, and they're like, we're looking for
Dana maguire and he's like, yeah, that's my wife.

Speaker 3 (26:45):
And they're like have you seen her? When was the
last time you saw her? And he's like five minutes ago.

Speaker 1 (26:50):
She's inside feeding the baby, Like fuck off, dude. So
now we go inside and we see the real Dana
in a button down in a cardigan, looking like, you know,
a white woman for Trumps spokesmodel. And she's like, oh
my god, so a dead woman was using my ID.

Speaker 3 (27:06):
That's creepy.

Speaker 1 (27:08):
And she goes, well, I was mugged on my way
home from mommy and me class and the guys. The
husband's like in broad daylight on Columbus Avenue, no cops
in sight, and it's like he's just like throwing a
dig at the cops, like our cops supposed to be
on every block of New York City, like I don't know.
And he's like, they caught the mugger maxing out her
credit cards at me Sees. So the guy got six

(27:29):
months at Rikers. They go talk to him at Rikers,
we got the mugger, and he's like these fucking yuppie
moms with their strollers and diaper bags and yoga mats,
easy pickens, and it's like kind of funny.

Speaker 3 (27:39):
I mean, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (27:39):
I don't want anybody to get mugged in front of
their kid, but it's just funny that he's like, yeah,
I don't mug regular people, like I don't go to
bad neighborhoods.

Speaker 3 (27:46):
I go to good neighborhoods.

Speaker 1 (27:47):
I mugg the rich people who are just walking down
the street with too much shit in their hands. They
tell him if he tells them who who he sold
the ID to, they can talk to the DA and
he can finish out his sentence in a halfway house.
So he looks at the picture and he goes, yeah, yeah,
I met her at a diner. She said she couldn't
work because she had no ID. I felt sorry for her,
And he's like, her real name is Jill, and so

(28:09):
she had a son named Tommy, and boom another Tommy.

Speaker 3 (28:12):
Here's where we go.

Speaker 1 (28:13):
And then Stabler tells Benson, Yeah, you know, like you
change your name if you're on the run from creditors
or whatever, but to change your kid's name, you're running
from something bigger. So Benson gets a page on her beeper,
which I don't really feel like I besides her and
Cassidy struggling post sex to see who's beeper's beeping in

(28:36):
season whatever we just did season two.

Speaker 3 (28:39):
Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (28:40):
I don't really see Benson season four still with a beeper.
I mean, she moves on to like a palm pilot
pretty soon, I feel like. But anyway, Warner wants to
see them at the Morgue. So now we're at Melinda's house.
She confirms the two blows to the head on Jill
and puts the time of death between nine and eleven
PM the night before and the fire department didn't get
called till five am, so more darkness. Tommy was probably

(29:03):
just in that apartment watching her die for six hours,
which is so fucking bleak. But Warner also notices that
Jill had scars on her like abdomen hip area from
a splenectomy, which is the removal of your spleen, and
she says she probably had Hodgkins disease as a child,
which would have been treated with chemo and would have

(29:24):
left her likely unable to have kids. So I ran
the DNA and twist. Jill and Tommy are not a match.
So Jill is not his mom. Wow, done done. So
now Benson and Stable are with Huang watching Tommy play
in the playroom for traumatized kids that they have, and
Huang is pitching, oh, maybe it was an adoption or

(29:46):
a kidnapping, et cetera. And they're like, none of that
really makes sense, Like there's no missing persons that matches him, Like,
we're not, you know. So she he shows them pictures
that Tommy drew to express his feelings, and you know, surprise, surprise,
he drew the murder, and then he drew Olivia, someone
who he cares, who and identified her as someone who
cares about him.

Speaker 3 (30:06):
So there's a pick.

Speaker 1 (30:07):
Of live, like a drawing of live in a mid
length orange skirt which she would never wear.

Speaker 3 (30:12):
But you can see he drew the badge.

Speaker 1 (30:14):
So they're holding hands in the drawing, so obviously she
immediately imprinted on him in the hospital and they are
best friends.

Speaker 2 (30:20):
This is definitely classic. She has away with victims, you know,
it's it's verres.

Speaker 3 (30:26):
Yeah, drawn to her.

Speaker 2 (30:28):
It's beautiful and she has a maternal vibe, you know,
like so just related. But when I was in Paris,
I was walking along you know, the river towards towards
the Eiffel Tower. Yeah, there were two like red retrievers.
And only reason I know that this is my friend
recently got one. It was the best dog I've ever

(30:49):
met in my life. And one of them ran directly
to me and just got pet by me and then
went away when he was done.

Speaker 3 (30:56):
Yeah. I think animals know they can trust you, for sure,
I hope. So, I mean, you're the Olivia Bens and
of animals. But I eat them.

Speaker 2 (31:02):
That's room what's bad. And I think they know that.
But I think they The.

Speaker 3 (31:06):
Cow has never run towards you, A pig has never
run towards you. Me and the.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
Dogs have the same diet. We're all eating animals. Yeah,
never mind me. They're not judging. You're right, you're right,
You're right.

Speaker 1 (31:19):
So liv goes to talk to Tommy in the traumatized child's
room and she calls him Tommy and he's a little
bit like shook, like how did you know my real name?
And she tells him she wants to help him, don't
be afraid, et cetera, et cetera. She asks him like,
who do do you know your phone number? Who do
you call when there's a problem, And then he takes

(31:40):
her little flip phone and dials nine one one and uh.
When she's like, oh, do you know your home phone number,
he throws the phone down, and so she asks like,
do you know any other numbers that you call in
an emergency? And he types this number in and Live
walks back into the room with Stable and Wong and
she's dialing the number and then she hangs up and goes, well,

(32:02):
it's the domestic violence hotline. So extremely the darkness keeps
starkening in this episode, like this fucking six year old
Rosie doesn't know my phone number, Like this six year
old has memorized the domestic violence hotline number, like so
so dark. So at the DV hotline offices, I guess

(32:23):
they're talking to a woman who's like, oh, fuck, Jill Hoffman,
that bastard finally did it. Like she knows the whole story.
And this woman is a dick Wolf frequent flyer. Her
name is Michelle Hurst. Yeah, she's done four apps of SPU,
four of original recipe, a criminal intent sprinkled in there
for good measure. She's done episodes we've seen her in.
So she starts explaining that Jill's husband, Dan Hoffman, was

(32:46):
a violent son of a bitch. He isolated her, drove
her friends away. She had nowhere to go. She stayed
at one of their safe houses once for a few weeks,
but then she eventually went back to her husband in
Rye because she couldn't leave her step son behind. She
loved that kid like he was her own and she
wanted to take Tommy to the shelter, but they can't
allow it. Like she's the stepmother, not that kids aren't

(33:08):
allowed on the shelter, but she's the stepmother. She has
no legal rights to this kid, like she hasn't adopted
him or anything like she can't take him from his father.
So they told her to fight for legal custody, and
they even found her a pro bono attorney. So now
we're talking to Jill's lawyer, played by the actor Welker White.
She is married to another Law and Order guy, Damian Young,

(33:30):
who plays Hampton Trill in the episode or just Look
Like One, which we've done at live shows.

Speaker 3 (33:35):
Ins Oh, oh my god.

Speaker 1 (33:39):
And I feel like I'm going insane. But I feel
like we met their daughter at one of our live shows,
like we met at our Brooklyn show this past summer.
We met someone who's like both of my parents have
been on Law and Order, and I feel like these
are her parents. And she came with someone to the
show and I was like, oh my god, these I
can't believe. I can't believe Hampton Trill is your dad

(34:01):
or whatever. But please confirm if I have dementia, If
if you're listening or you brought your friend, please let
me know. I'm almost positive, but it could have been.
She had two other parents who are doing it.

Speaker 2 (34:11):
And I love this lawyer. I love this scene. I
think like I am kind of obsessed.

Speaker 1 (34:18):
Yeah, she's a badass lawyer. She's like, listen, I can
confirm that she's my client, but I can't say anything else.
And then they're like, well, you know, we're just trying
to help Tommy, and she's like, well where is Tommy?
And she's like, are you sending that poor traumatized boy
back to his father? And they're like, unless you have
good reasons why we shouldn't, And so she gives a
little background. She's like, Jill Mary Dan Hoffman two years ago,

(34:39):
and the abuse started soon after Tommy's mother, Kim, left
when Tommy was three. So if Tommy six, his mom
left when he was three, his dad got remarried to
Kim basically when he was four, and now it's been
two years, so just for the timeline of the family,
and he probably beat the shit out of her too.

Speaker 3 (34:57):
The lawyer says.

Speaker 1 (34:58):
Lawyers like Dan terrorized Tommy psychologically but never actually laid
a hand on him. But Jill knew he would eventually
turn to Tommy and like hurt Tommy. They filed for
emergency custody, but she, the lawyer's like, I knew it
was a long shot, and Benson goes you knew she'd lose.
You told her to take Tommy, And she goes, I'm
an officer of the court. If I hadbetted my client
in the commission of a felony, I'd be disbarred. But

(35:20):
she says it in such a like flat tone that's like, yeah,
I definitely told her to fucking run. Of course I
told her to run. I'm a human being, like I'm not,
you know, But yeah, she did that shit. So they're
talking to the police department now in rough and tumble, Rye,
New York.

Speaker 3 (35:36):
Rye, New York is very close to where I grew up.

Speaker 1 (35:39):
It's a very affluent, little like New York suburb, and
I used to work at a store that had a
store and Rye that I worked at a couple of times,
so I've spent a tiny bit of time there. The
police chief is played by Adam Lefev, who we've talked
about as well another Dick Wolf universe standby. He's been
in five episodes of SVU. I think he were in

(36:00):
Atlanta with Rollins or something like that. But we've got
him and we've talked about him before. He has such
a face to me like he's been in a ton
of stuff, and I think I only recognize him from
all the svus he's been in. But he's telling Benson
and Stabler, you gotta be confused. Tommy's down in Florida
with his stepmom, and this guy is president of the
Dan Hoffman fan Club, nicest guy in the world, successful
real toor sells houses to people escaping crime in your

(36:23):
big bad city or whatever. And then he calls his
first wife, Kim, a tramp who ran away with another man.
And Dan has done so much to help this community,
Like there's just she's just like showing newspaper articles like
Jesse grabs the first newspaper you can see, and Dan
Hoffman's like on the fucking cover for giving money to something.
So at the town paper, the woman at the paper

(36:45):
is like, I've got tons of picks of Dan. He's
a major player and Rye and it's like small ass
town like major player and she's got She's like, I've
got picks of Tommy and Jill. I even have picks
of Kim, even though she'll never show her face in
this town again. And now Live goes to talk to
Tommy like no one is like no one even questions

(37:07):
where did this woman go?

Speaker 3 (37:08):
Is everything okay with her?

Speaker 1 (37:09):
They're just like dumb slut, She better not show up
to any benefits around this town. Like but anyway, I
guess that happens when you have like a charismatic man
controlling the narrative. So now Live goes to talk to
Tommy again, and she's made him a book of pictures,
and he smiles when he sees one of himself playing soccer,
but then he instantly face drops sadness when he sees

(37:30):
a picture of him with Jill. And then she shows
him a picture of his mom, Kim, and he goes,
who is that? And he finally speaks, He finally talks.
He goes, that's my mom. He has such a cute
little voice, the best.

Speaker 3 (37:43):
Tommy, He's the cute way I love me.

Speaker 1 (37:46):
And my dad says, she ran away. He said she
didn't love us anymore, and then he goes, and then
Jill came and made me cookies and tucked me in
every night, and then she went away, but she came
back for me and they're like, but we ran away,
and they're like, oh, from your dad, and he's like yeah.
He's like, we were gonna get a new house far
away where my dad could never find us. But of

(38:08):
course the timing of television is that as Tommy's talking,
we hear Tommy, Tommy, where's my son? And it's his
dad and Tommy's so scared. The second he hears his
dad's voice, he's like locks up, and Dan Hoffman has
barged into the precinct. He's freaking out, like give me,
where's my son? Like you're holding him like and this sous.

Speaker 2 (38:27):
Crazy because I only thought about the movie Ransom in
this moment and then you did.

Speaker 3 (38:31):
It give me back my son.

Speaker 2 (38:33):
Yeah, so he is because when that little boy in
Ransom Peace, when he sees the guy who really took him,
like haunted me as a child.

Speaker 3 (38:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:42):
Oh, it's like the episode, isn't it the Jackman Herdy episode?

Speaker 3 (38:45):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (38:46):
Yeah, that's where my brain went right after and then
you said it it's like perfect.

Speaker 1 (38:50):
So Dan Hoffman is played by Rob Estes, who I
obviously clock immediately from Hollow's place, like classic Hattie, Like
I was obsessed with this man as a youth, Like
I thought he was so hot on Melrose. I think
he had a relationship with Jane Josie Bassett who plays
a woman who drinks while she's pregnant in the in
one of the episodes of SBU.

Speaker 3 (39:08):
So you know, no one can escape. But he is,
you know, very handsome.

Speaker 1 (39:13):
He's like a perfect casting for this, like handsome guy
like you know, good talker and then tell this lunatic crystal.

Speaker 3 (39:21):
Blue like Caribbean water like eyes. But he plays he
is so hot.

Speaker 2 (39:29):
But he plays this role so well because I am
terrified immediately. I hate him instantly, and I'm not into
it at all, Like, yeah, I don't know how everyone
else has fallen for the act because I certainly am not.

Speaker 3 (39:41):
And you're detective.

Speaker 2 (39:42):
You're a detective head of police at Rye and you
can't tell this as a freak.

Speaker 3 (39:46):
You shouldn't have that job. But cops beat their wives whatever, So.

Speaker 1 (39:49):
Yeah, men would only clock this man as aspirational, like
they would may be like look at this guy, hot wife,
like big house, successful job, whatever, Like they would not
be like they're sitting behind those eyes that says that
he uh likes to control people and beat them.

Speaker 3 (40:06):
But anyway, we're giving away, we're giving away too much.

Speaker 1 (40:09):
As if you don't know where this is going, if
you don't listen to if you don't even know this episode.
So Benson tries to tell this lunatic dad like stop it,
like leave, like Tommy doesn't have to go with him,
and then Stabler comes in to be like, unfortunately, yes
he does. Tommy has been medically cleared and released into
the custody of his father. This is a hole in
the episode for me, Like, how would that be. Oh well,

(40:31):
wait till the real crime. Why don't you wait till
that and then maybe.

Speaker 3 (40:34):
Oh god, then you'll know because like medically cleared.

Speaker 1 (40:39):
Sure, physically, but like emotionally, there's no way we've already
done a full work up on him.

Speaker 3 (40:43):
There's no way we haven't deterurned.

Speaker 1 (40:45):
Like no one has gone an answer whether that scared
of his dad, Like no one has gotten like like
an answer on how much he saw of the crime.
Like I just don't think there'd be any way that
they're like, yep, he can go home with his dad now.
I feel like there would be some kind of foster
cared temporary housing that would happen. But relative, you could
have another relative that could take him in.

Speaker 2 (41:05):
But you're also right, he did he himself, which means
he did see it. Which means they would have asked
some questions.

Speaker 1 (41:11):
Right, like and yeah, it's a big hole for me
that like it's like, nope, let's just let him go
home with a guy who because whenever a woman is killed,
the husband or the spouse or the partner or whatever
is unmanac. So it's like, you're not going to just
let him go home with the guy who maybe did it.

Speaker 2 (41:26):
I so wait for how mad you're going to be
when I'm.

Speaker 3 (41:35):
I'm pre depressed just thinking about it. Okay.

Speaker 1 (41:37):
So it's very terrifying the scene because this little boy
is so good. He is like frozen, and the dad
picks him up and he's just like in his dad's arms,
but his eyes you can tell he's like, oh my god,
oh my god, like communicating to Olivia basically like help me,
like and the dad's like, thank god, I found you,

(41:58):
and like takes him away. And I have to tell you,
I obviously looked up Tommy to see what he was
up to, because I think he's such a good little
child actor. He did quit the business sadly, and he
is now a professional bodybuilder. Wow owns a gym in Valencia, California.
So a lot if you want to see this little
kid swoll as fuck. He's got the exact same fucking

(42:20):
base just as an adult like jacked jack jacked, like
at a competition with Teresa Judice.

Speaker 2 (42:27):
You need to do real but you need to send
me this. But also, if you guys want to see
us take a trip down there for a personal workout
with baby Tommy, maybe you guys should start a you know,
a little.

Speaker 3 (42:41):
Know, let's do a little campaign.

Speaker 2 (42:42):
Let's do a campaign and then I make exactly right
pay for it.

Speaker 3 (42:47):
But I think we need to go to Valencia.

Speaker 1 (42:50):
Yeah, and he just like teaches us how to lift.
I mean, I kind of love it. I'm trying to
get into that.

Speaker 3 (42:54):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (42:55):
So so his name is Max Weinstein, and I'm sad
he left acting because oh my god, little Tommy what
a cutie.

Speaker 3 (43:01):
But and like, oh my god, he was just so cute.

Speaker 1 (43:05):
But top of BAC three and Cabot's telling them, Okay, listen,
Dan Hoffman's lawyer is threatening to sue you guys for
withholding the information about Tommy's whereabouts and causing undue stress,
and Stabler's like stress, my ass, he didn't even follow
a missing person's report and Benson's like, we delayed notification
by a couple of hours, Like it was not like
we had him for days, you know, And Alex is like,

(43:25):
that's not the point. You were playing that fast and
loose and you got busted. And it's like Alex, and
he wasn't even that fast. Yeah, you pay play fast
and loose all the time. And also why is like
I don't understand, Like I feel like you get taken
away from your parent if you're a suspect in a murder,
you just do like there's and there's no like until

(43:50):
you've confirmed his alibi. He's a suspect in the murder,
Like so this doesn't make sense to me. But anyway,
now the boy is in a custody of a killer,
they're saying, and Cabot's like a lleged killer. And then
she's got you guys really have nothing like it could
have been a burglary and lives like he was about
to tell me everything when the dad barged in.

Speaker 3 (44:07):
We've got to reinterview him.

Speaker 1 (44:09):
And Hoffman's attorney is going to fight it, and Craigan's like, well,
then court order it. He's a material witness to a
murder and Cabot's like, I'll try, but some hard evidence
on the murder would be super. So they go speak
to Hoffman and they're kissing his ass like apologies, like
for the misunderstanding about Tommy and we're so sorry about
your wife and blah blah blah, and they're asking about

(44:30):
Tommy and Hoffman's like, yeah, I a psychologist told me
that Tommy will make a full recovery. And it's like, yeah, sure,
he pissed himself watching his stepmom get raped and murdered
and then sat there watching her die for six hours,
like he's gonna be fine. What therapist would ever just be? Like,
I can tell you right now he's gonna make a
full recovery. Like you've barely spoken to him, and you're like,
he's all good still. Stabler's like that's great news, great, great,

(44:54):
and then they're you know, they're playing their little games
with him. Benson asked to talk to Tommy again, and
he's like no, like like I'm not gonna let that
you guys like traumatize him again. And so obviously after
that they dropped the nice cop act and they're like,
you didn't even report your son missing. You told everyone
she was in Florida, and he's like, I lied to
protect Jill so everyone wouldn't find out how emotionally unstable

(45:15):
she was. But you let your son go off with
an emotionally unstable woman.

Speaker 3 (45:19):
For a month, Okay.

Speaker 1 (45:20):
Yeah, he was afraid of going to the cops that
that would set her off, and she's always come back before,
and so he waited. That's his excuse that he was
just waiting for her to come back. So they asked
for his alibi for the murder, and he goes, well,
I was in the city at a realtor's association dinner
with five hundred colleagues, and they can all confirm each

(45:40):
every single one of them saw me and fed me
a shrimp with their own fork, and they can confirm
that I was there. So they go to speak to
a realtor who allegedly sat next to him at the dinner,
and she's like, yeah, he was bored, so he went
to the bar. He promised me a dance, but he
never made it back to the table. I thought he
stood me up, but he came back, and I was
jealous because his clothes were all sweaty and messed up,

(46:03):
and I wish he'd gotten sweaty and disheveled with her
like that's basically her vibe. It's like he looked like
shit and I knew he fucked somebody in like a closet,
and I wish it was me. So it was around
eleven when he came back, and she remembered because that's
when she calls the babysitter. So a single mom, I guess,
trying to fuck at a real estate dinner, go queen.
So Benson realizes that, oh, he absolutely had time to

(46:26):
sneak out and do this murder. But what about the blood,
Like he would have been covered in blood, like from
the blood spatter, like this was a very violent crime.
And Stabler goes, coveralls worked good enough for OJ. So
we just explained that away, that this man brought coveralls
with him to his real estate dinner, he put them on,
he murdered, he got rid of the coveralls because he's
not wearing he's not bloody when he gets back to

(46:47):
the dinner. So this is a week alibi. Maybe Cabot
can use it, they think. So now we're in judges
chambers and it's Cabot with Judge Alan Riddner and He's
played by Harvey Atkin, and we've seen him a lot
of times. He's been in eighteen episodes of SVU, A
lot of good ones that we've covered. He's got kind
of like a mustache and like around the head hair,

(47:08):
like bozo hair or whatever.

Speaker 2 (47:09):
I would call him no nonsense.

Speaker 1 (47:14):
Yes, he's very no nonsense, like he annoyed. He and
Petrowski probably like get a drink and talk shit about
Cabot all the time, like she's always trying to bend it.

Speaker 3 (47:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:26):
So also in the room I completely forgot until this
rewatch is Sandra Bernhard Icon playing Dan Hoffman's lawyer and
the judging.

Speaker 3 (47:38):
I love her. I love her, obsessed with her. How
do they not have her back?

Speaker 1 (47:42):
She's like perfect in this role, like a ruthless defense
attorney is perfect.

Speaker 3 (47:46):
She Yeah, I really liked her in this part. She's great.

Speaker 1 (47:51):
The judge is saying that the child is too traumatized
and won't be interviewed until after he's undergone a psych evaluation,
and Cabot offers Swung. They have Objeck to Huang because
he works for the cops, as if Huang doesn't do
thousands of child evaluations like every year that get entered
into court.

Speaker 3 (48:08):
But whatever.

Speaker 1 (48:09):
Hoffman's like, I've already hired another psychiatrist to evaluate Tommy,
Like why does he have to have two? And the
judge like buys it, and Cabot's like, okay, well, can
we at least put Tommy in foster care until after
the evaluation. He's an eyewitness to a murder that his
father may have committed, and sam dra Bernhard aka Priscilla
Cheney says they have no evidence of that, and Cabot
points out that his alibi is shaky and there's a

(48:31):
history of domestic violence. Cheney argues that Jill was unstable
and flew off the handle because Hoffman wanted a divorce
and took the boy as an act of retaliation. The
judge says the child will remain in the father's custody
with like no reasoning, Like there's definitely reasonable doubt here.
You're just like taking Sandra Bernhardt's word that this guy's good,

(48:53):
Like it's crazy.

Speaker 2 (48:54):
Him not Like reporting his son missing is like really
substantial evidence to me. Yeah, Like that is a clue
And I don't know why that's being ignored by the courts,
where it's like.

Speaker 3 (49:09):
He's acting like he cares, but he didn't care for
over a month.

Speaker 1 (49:13):
Yeah, yeah, and like we find out later, like it's
very easy to confirm some of the DV claims people
neighbors know, you know what I mean. Like, so I
don't know, I'm just kind of like it's a loose
police work episode, but I think it also goes to
the premise that handsome, successful white men can convince people

(49:39):
to do a lot of things there, that they are
different people than who they say they are, and you know,
like they get what they want a lot of the time.
So we definitely talked about that. We've seen that before.
So I'm sad that he's making Tommy stay with the dad.
Cheney goes to Cabot, Dan is a kind gentleman and
capable of violence, How can I convince you? And Cabbit

(50:01):
goes let the police interview him. So now we're in
wood room blinds, it's the cops and Cheney and Hoffman,
and Stabler goes, uh, what about this forty five minute
gap in your alibi? Like, and he goes, it was
a boring rubber chicken dinner, so I ran to a
bar for a drink, and he goes, they go, well,
the bar, get.

Speaker 2 (50:19):
Drunk there, Like I don't understand, like if you're to
get drunk, Like that's the thing they keep saying as
an answer for everything, but all his answers are terrible.

Speaker 3 (50:28):
Yeah, like none of them are good or work.

Speaker 1 (50:30):
So right, was it a dry real estate association dinner
because otherwise these yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (50:37):
Or the hoteler, they're like, where this conference is at?
Probably at a bar, Like it just doesn't make sense.

Speaker 3 (50:44):
You'd run out to a random bar. I don't.

Speaker 1 (50:46):
Yeah, you go to a bar after you don't go
to a bar in the middle of it, like when
there's an open bar at your fingertips.

Speaker 3 (50:51):
I mean yes, anyway, So.

Speaker 1 (50:54):
He's like, they're like, oh, really you were at the bar.
The bartender doesn't remember you. And he's like the police
was past, and he's like he has an excuse for everything.

Speaker 3 (51:01):
But like you said, they're not really good.

Speaker 1 (51:04):
And they're like, well, you were a five minute cab
ride from Jill's like where she got murdered. So if
and he goes, if I had known where she was,
I would have gone and convinced them to come back home.
And they're like, I thought you wanted a divorce, and
he's like, I wanted my son back, and they're like,
you got an answer for everything. I'm not buying this
loving father act. Tommy is terrified of you, and he's like,
Tommy is everything to me. I would die for him.

(51:25):
And they're like, he almost died for you. You killed
Jill and left him alone in that apartment, and if
firefighters hadn't responded so fast, you'd be burying him along
with Jill. And seriously, like why did he leave the
son behind? Like why would you leave your son behind?

Speaker 3 (51:39):
After that?

Speaker 2 (51:40):
Do you think that his son that he knew his
son saw it? Or do you think he his son
was sleeping. He doesn't know that Tommy saw, does he.

Speaker 1 (51:50):
No?

Speaker 3 (51:51):
But I feel like you would grab your son so
that none.

Speaker 2 (51:54):
Else would be no, because then it would be obvious
that it was him.

Speaker 3 (51:58):
And then he kidnapped his then he took his on
because but he.

Speaker 2 (52:02):
Knew that everyone he told him they were in Florida. Yeah,
he couldn't have done. He had to leave him. You
should have turned the stove off, but that would have
been a clue to.

Speaker 3 (52:11):
I don't know, like who turned the stove on? Was
it no?

Speaker 2 (52:14):
I bet his mom was cooking and then he burst
in murdered her.

Speaker 1 (52:18):
Yeah, thinking that, Oh, I thought he did it in
this in sleep because it was like nine to eleve.

Speaker 3 (52:24):
It happened at like ten o'clock at night or like remember.
But but my.

Speaker 2 (52:28):
Thing, well, we find this out later. But she she
has a night job. Yeah, she could have been like
cooking dinner.

Speaker 3 (52:34):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (52:35):
I don't know me because I don't think Tommy would
have tried to cook.

Speaker 3 (52:37):
No, you're right.

Speaker 1 (52:38):
He I thought like I thought, oh, grab her, grab him,
and when she gets found be like, yeah, I didn't
know where she was.

Speaker 3 (52:46):
She ran off.

Speaker 1 (52:46):
But there's too many witnesses that would have said, like, oh, no,
he's been living at this apartment with her, and he was.

Speaker 3 (52:51):
He had to go back to this party for his alibi.
That's true, that's true. You're right. Could he could not
have grabbed him, so he just left him there too?
Fixed out you're a DV.

Speaker 2 (53:01):
If you're a domestic abuser, you don't care about it,
like you're a bad person.

Speaker 1 (53:06):
Yeah, but he sees people as his property, so I
want to write it and take his property back with him.

Speaker 3 (53:11):
But you're right, like that would have not.

Speaker 2 (53:12):
That would have absolutely that would have serviced him and
then him get him first.

Speaker 3 (53:16):
Yes, yeah, yep, yep, yeah, he would have gotten busted.
You're right.

Speaker 1 (53:20):
I didn't even think that threw all the way. Okay,
So Benson is like getting to him. She's like in
his face, like I'm not buying your loving dad act,
like I see right fucking through you. And he looks
at her and goes, you wouldn't be talking to me
like that if you didn't have a badge and a gun.
And that's where you get a little crack, you get
a little track. Yeah, because I would say so far,

(53:41):
this actor like really plays it like he doesn't give
any little bit of psycho away like some of the
other guys will, like there'll be a look or like
some kind of comment or whatever where they'll you'll be like, oh,
there he is, and like until now this is like
what we see, you know, like this is the Yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:59):
I wonder how much my opinion is because I've seen
this episode no less than thirty five times. Oh, but
he's chilling every time. To me, I'm scared of him instantly.
But this, to me, it's like a clue and it's
like why because you beat the shit out of women obviously.

Speaker 1 (54:14):
Yeah, yeah, and he wouldn't have said that to Stabler.
Stabler was in his face giving him shit, you know,
like he yea yeah, this man.

Speaker 3 (54:21):
Sin is shin chang. She more has satisfaction that she
made him cry, loves getting underneath these guy's skin. She can't.
You have a fucking gun and I'll kill you. Get
away from me.

Speaker 1 (54:32):
So outside in the hallway, Benson is pointing out to Stabler,
notice how this guy never says Jill or Tommy, although
he did say Tommy quite a few times, but he
always says my wife, my son. He thinks of them
as possessions, not people, which we said it's very two
seconds ago. Yes, yes, so true family annihilator. Anyway, Munch

(54:53):
has some info and he's like, listen, Jill, open your account.

Speaker 2 (54:58):
Can you imagine you're the type of person in where
we're like, oh, yeah, the guy who would family annihilate,
Like you have to rethink your life.

Speaker 3 (55:06):
You have to be just a little yeah, where we.

Speaker 2 (55:09):
Would not be surprised if you truly murdered a whole
family Like Eu, You're.

Speaker 3 (55:14):
Like that sucks, Yeah, someone thought that of me. That
would be chilling.

Speaker 2 (55:18):
Yeah, Idan, We're like, she seems like someone who would
slash and murder her whole family.

Speaker 3 (55:22):
I'd be like, geez, I must.

Speaker 1 (55:24):
Suck, like yeah, oh my god. But he has no
self awareness. He can't look any word like that anyway.
So Munch is like, listen, I got some info. Jill
opened a bank account as Dana Maguire and deposited some
paychecks from JAG Enterprises. And it turns out she was
working as an entertainer at Benny's topless on twelve. So

(55:45):
at Bennie's, there's we're talking to a dancer. She's like, listen,
Jill was sweet, but she was a shitty dancer.

Speaker 3 (55:51):
Listen. She looked like Susie Homemaker.

Speaker 1 (55:54):
So all these commuters that were on their way back
to the burbs, she gave them boners. You know, they
love it, they felt. They said it was like having
June Cleaver give him a lap dance. So not sure
why she quit, but she freaked out a week ago
when she saw a guy in the crowd that she
knew from the town she used to live in. And
then a couple of days later she was gone. So
she goes it was a week ago Tuesday. I remember

(56:14):
because that was the night I introduced the cockatoo into
my act.

Speaker 3 (56:17):
So funny.

Speaker 1 (56:18):
So where the fuck are the writers coming up with this?
Did somebody just like have a cockatoo and they're like,
let's give the cockatoo to the dancer.

Speaker 2 (56:24):
Like or they went to a strip club that weekend
for someone's bachelor party and saw cockatoon and saw it.

Speaker 3 (56:29):
Got it. Yeah, It's like.

Speaker 1 (56:32):
To have animals on set is hard. You have to
have a wrangler, Like, it is hard to have an
animal on set. So it's like just to have this
cockatoo line. They've got a wrangler on set that day,
Like it's so crazy.

Speaker 2 (56:42):
I love the way they spend money, God bless them.
The cockatoo line really made me laugh in this like
really sad episode.

Speaker 1 (56:49):
So Stabler like when they go, she goes, I remember
what night it was because that was the night I
introduced the cockatoo into my act. Stabler makes a face like, yeah, sure,
cockatoo fair enough. It's such a funny face like, yeah,
that makes sense. I guess if you have a cockatoo
in your act. And then the dancer as they're leaving goes, hey,
guys want you nail the prick, like they like, you know,
she's like probably no stranger to men being shitty. This woman,

(57:13):
it feels like, so she's like, get whoever fucking killed
the sport innocent woman? So they find out and meanwhile,
notice that like nobody at her work is like she's
emotionally unstable and crazy and anything like that.

Speaker 3 (57:25):
You know, like, yeah, they would know.

Speaker 1 (57:28):
So they find out who the guy is that she saw,
and it's somebody named but like they go through credit
card receipts at the place or whatever, and they find
out that this guy's name is Mike Rizzo, and he
spends a lot of time at Benny's topless, and he's
begging them please don't tell my wife.

Speaker 3 (57:43):
She thinks I work a lot of overtime, fucking loser.

Speaker 1 (57:46):
And then he says, yeah, I saw this stripper who
looked like a dead ringer for Dan's wife, So I
called him on my way home.

Speaker 3 (57:54):
I thought he'd get a kick out of it.

Speaker 1 (57:56):
I mean, I swear you put her in an apron
baking cookies and half the town would swear it was Jill.
So now they're filling in Cabot.

Speaker 2 (58:02):
The man are so clueless. Yeah, I can't. Yeah, I can't.

Speaker 3 (58:08):
Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (58:09):
Okay, So now they're filling in cab You know this
guy well enough to call him on your way home
and tell him I think I saw a stripper that
looks like you're wife, But you don't know that his
wife's in Florida with the kid for a month, Like
I don't whatever. So now they're filling in Cabot. They're like, listen,
he could have gone to the club, followed her home.
His alibi is a massive hole in it. No one
remembers seeing him at the dinner dance. They keep calling
it for a full forty five minutes and Gabbat. Gabbott

(58:31):
says it's enough for an arrest, but they may not
make it past the grand jury. This guy has everyone
fooled with his father of the Year act. He's handsome, charismatic,
he's a grieving widow now, and Cabot goes, I can
do a silent indictment without arresting him. I feel like
we've seen one of these before, but this is like
kind of the first time.

Speaker 3 (58:48):
I'm getting it.

Speaker 1 (58:49):
Basically, you can present the facts to the grand jury
as part of an investigation, in which case you're not
obligated to notify Hoffmann, and then he can't testify on
his own behalf. So she's like, I'll do it in
the morning and then you can pick him up. It's
a little it sounds like it's a little bit like
it is legal, but it's like a little bit of
a shady move or something like a loop holy type

(59:10):
of thing. So they pull up to his like mansion
and Rye and Olivia starts talking to Tommy, who's playing soccer.
Hoffman comes out and is like, I'm gonna file a
straight restraining order against you and sue you for harassment,
and then they arrest Hoffman while Benson comforts Tommy.

Speaker 3 (59:24):
So now top of the final act.

Speaker 1 (59:26):
In court, Hoffman pleads not guilty and Cabot requests hermand
Yeah you know, Sandra Bernard is like, the client is
a community leader with no record and a sole caretaker
of his son, and Cabbot goes, well, he wouldn't be
a single parent if he didn't kill his wife.

Speaker 3 (59:41):
And judge, which I love that.

Speaker 1 (59:43):
I love a little fucking shady dig and control yourself,
miss Cabot, and then he sets fail at one hundred
k okay, So one hundred thousand, which the guy will
get in has in his pocket probably. Cheney requests a
speedy trial and throws shade at Cabot for doing her
little grand jury maneuver, this little silent like silent jury thing.

(01:00:05):
So she starts explaining herself, and the judge is like, Babe,
I know the law, and I also know your reputation
for doing whatever the fuck you want, so and then
Cabot tells the judge, you said the child's mental health
was hanging in the balance. We didn't want to traumatize
him more by having his dad arrested prematurely. And then
Cheney emotions to exclude anyone who Jill Hoffman told about

(01:00:26):
the abuse, and Cabot is arguing that when she spoke
to a DV center staff, she was distraught and it
would have counted as an emotional utterance. But Cheney argues,
it violates this fucking asshole's right to confront and cross
examine his accuser and it's prejudicial. And the judge, who
clearly hates Cabot and like loves domestic violence, grants the

(01:00:46):
motion like he's just like, it's so insane that you're
not you can murder someone, so that you can't use
anything that they say have told anybody, because then you
don't have a right to confront your accuser because you're
accuser is dead because you've killed them. Like what the
fuck is that law? So anyway, at the precinct, Cabot

(01:01:06):
is like, Okay, well we're fucked.

Speaker 3 (01:01:07):
We have nothing.

Speaker 1 (01:01:08):
Cabot's like, they're just going to argue she was killed
in a burglary home invasion. She was living in a
bad neighborhood. She was working as a stripper, and I
do kind of wonder who was watching Tommy during the shifts,
Maybe that old lady neighbor. Anyway, Olivia says, Tommy's testimony
will put him away. I know I can get him
to tell me what happened. And they're like, well, Tommy's
been in foster care. Let's send Olivia to talk to him.

(01:01:29):
And it's like, no, the judge made an order that
no one can talk to Tommy. And even if Tommy
says his dad killed Jill, the statement's going to get
thrown out because of the judge's order. I don't get
where is the where is the PsychEval from this guy's psychiatrist?
I mean, I know it's probably going to be filled
with lies anyway, but why hasn't it happened yet? Like, also,

(01:01:54):
I don't think the court would allow somebody's privately hired
psychiatrists to be the one doing the evaluation.

Speaker 3 (01:02:00):
No, I feel like it has to be wong.

Speaker 2 (01:02:03):
But I think this is what it's like when you're
an abuse fixed like I think they are.

Speaker 3 (01:02:09):
You know, that's kind of the point of the show too. Yeah,
for sure, for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:02:13):
So they could subpoena Tommy, but it's a big gamble
to put a traumatized child on the stand with like
no prep and this, and also his dad might have
coached him to say a stranger did it, Like yeah,
I'll fucking kill you if you say that I did it,
you know. So what about Kim Hoffman, Tommy's mom, She
has rights to talk to him, And Stabler said, well,
she either fell into a black hole or he murdered

(01:02:35):
her ass too. So she's got no activity on her
Social Security, no tax returns, no sign of life since
she disappeared two years ago or three years ago. Sorry,
So they go to speak to a neighbor and he
remembers Kim. He's like yeah, we would say hi here
and there. But I'm not surprised that you can't find
out much about her. Her husband had her terrified to

(01:02:56):
talk to anyone. I'd wave to her, she'd check over
her shoulder to see if he was looking before she
would wave back. She always had bruises, a broken arm.
He said she ran off with another man. The neighbor's like,
I don't buy that shit for a second. I think
Kaufman killed her, especially after I saw that black van
and he said it pulled into the driveway late one night,
a shadowy figure filled it with garbage bags and then

(01:03:18):
drove away, and the next day Kim was gone. He goes,
I called the cops and I gave them the license plate.
So now we're back with the Dan Hoffman fan club president,
the fucking chief of police, and he's like, Dan Hoffman
is not a killer. But he pulls the file nevertheless,
and he's like, we might not be the almighty NYPD, but.

Speaker 2 (01:03:36):
Were so muchtitude, dog, come on, you shut.

Speaker 5 (01:03:41):
The fuck upp.

Speaker 1 (01:03:42):
So then he goes the plates came back to someone
named Don Trent. She was a soccer mom from Portchester
who was there delivering girl scout cookies and they're like,
can we have the file? And he's like the cases closed,
have at it. So Benson's like, all right, I'm gonna
stall Cabot while Sabler tracks down Dawn Trent. We're talking
to Dawn don Dawn and she is played by Haveland Morris,

(01:04:05):
and I was racking my brain trying to figure out
where I recognize her from. And she is Brooke from
that season one episode of Sex and the City.

Speaker 3 (01:04:13):
She's the redhead who's like.

Speaker 1 (01:04:14):
Getting married and it's like such a big deal about
like gifts and right right, it's a turtle episode, I think.
And I just remember her so clearly from that episode.
I look, she's got a long resume. This actress have
Alane Morris, but I just didn't recognize many things except this, Yeah,
she's an Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:33):
She like tells her like make sure you end up
with someone that loves you more than they love them,
and that.

Speaker 3 (01:04:37):
Like haunts carry or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're totally right. Damn. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:42):
I also loved that old man neighbor and no one
listened to it. And that's the thing the cops had
with bias. They didn't even do a proper investigation because
they already yeah, like assume.

Speaker 1 (01:04:50):
And imagine you're just like you're you're a neighbor and
you're just still living next to a guy that you
think murdered his wife, Like and he's just walking in
and out of the house ever with a new wife,
and like we're not checking in with the new wife,
like what's going, Like I don't know, but.

Speaker 3 (01:05:07):
Dawn.

Speaker 1 (01:05:08):
They're talking to Dawn and she's like, I don't know
Dan Hoffman, and then Stabler jumps immediately to accusing her
of accessory to murder, like immediately, and she's like what,
Like I don't know this man. And then they're like, okay,
what about Kim Hoffman And she lies and goes, I
don't know Kim Hoffman. But this is an obvious Mariah
Carey style lie. She's like I don't know her. It's
like you do know her, and Stabler's like, babe, cough

(01:05:31):
it up, like we know you were there the night
she disappeared, like we know something's up. And so she
finally spills, She's like, I don't know Dan, but I
do know Kim and I was there the night that
night helping her leave, and Stabler's confused He's like, wait,
Kim's alive, and Don's like, yeah, same old story. Your
husband is the nicest guy in town, everyone's pal, especially
the cops. Every night he comes home, he beats you,

(01:05:54):
degrades you, terrorizes you. And who's gonna believe that the
man of the year is a batterer. There's nowhere to go,
and there's nowhere to hide in a small town, and
you know, you start, you get a like the only
option you have is to get far away and start over.
That takes money and help. And she's like, it's not
just me, it's a group of us. And Stable goes
like some kind of domestic violence underground railroad and she's like, yeah,

(01:06:17):
maybe I guess. So she's like I was Kim's first
stop and then I passed her on to someone else
and they're like, what about the kid? And Don's like, listen,
Kim was gonna die, Like we had to move her.
She was coming. She was hoping to come back for Tommy.
But Don's like, I don't know where she is. I
only know the next link in the chain, and that's
all any of us really know. So we cut to

(01:06:38):
Stabler going through the links right The next lady picked
her up and drove her to Poughkeepsie. Then she was
living on a farm New Paulitz, Brewster, And the last
woman they talked to says, we got her settled in
Torrington and she got working at a dry cleaner's as
far as I know, she's still there. I do want
to point out that Torrington, Connecticut to Ride New York
is eighty miles. Okay, it's a ninety minute drive, Max.

(01:06:59):
You need to go there to get away from this
man I feel, but she's close by anyway. Stabler shows
up at the dry cleaner in Torrington and finds Kim
working there, and he calls her Kim, and she's like,
you have me mistaken for someone else. I mean, like
this is like sleeping with the enemy. This is like
so many movie enough, like all these movies we've seen
where it's like, Nope.

Speaker 3 (01:07:17):
That's not me.

Speaker 1 (01:07:18):
And he tells her listen, it's about Tommy. And then
they have a chat in the back room of the
dry cleaner and she's like, I cry for Tommy every night.

Speaker 3 (01:07:27):
She's like nobody knew.

Speaker 1 (01:07:28):
He says, like, I know why you left, and she's
like yeah, but nobody knew how bad it was. He
used to beat me so badly I couldn't walk. And
then he's like, but you didn't you want to go
back for Tommy, and she goes I did. After I
got settled, I went back to Ryde to get him,
and I saw him playing on the front in the
front yard with this woman and he called her mommy,
and he looked so happy. I thought he's better off

(01:07:49):
and he had everything I couldn't give him. But it's like, girl,
you had to know that he was beating the shit
out of that lady too. But I guess maybe you
think it was just me. Maybe that's like a victim
like psychology that your batterer gets into you that like
you're the worst woman and I only would beat you
or I've never beaten anyone else. But she's like, they're like,
we need you now. You need to come see Tommy,

(01:08:10):
and she's like, I can't face him. He won't understand
what if he doesn't love me anymore? And he's like, listen,
you got to help Tommy or he goes back to
that house and you have to risk your pain to
save his life.

Speaker 3 (01:08:20):
So now he cut to the trial.

Speaker 1 (01:08:21):
Hoffman's on the stand talking about how he and Jill
met because they worked together. She was so kind to
him after Kim left and after the wedding. After they
got married, he saw that Jill had a terrible temper.
One night, she didn't praise he didn't praise her cooking
well enough, and she smashed a meat loaf all over
the walls. Tommy was terrified. It's like, okay, confirm with Tommy.
This sounds like bullshit. He realized that she was emotionally

(01:08:44):
unstable and she refused to get help, and he thought
with love and support, things would change, but they got worse.
He was worried about Tommy that she would eventually hurt him,
and so he told her he wanted a divorce. The
next day, she was gone. He was relieved until Tommy
didn't come home from school and he realized she had
taken him.

Speaker 3 (01:09:02):
So now it's Cabot's turn.

Speaker 1 (01:09:03):
And she's like, oh, okay, so you're the victim and
he's like yeah. She's like, well, if you love your
son so much, why no missing person's report? And you know,
we go through the same shit. He said before, I
was afraid to talk to the cops. Jill might do
something crazy. So he's like, so you didn't go look,
and he's like, no, I did, and and she's like, well,
when your friend told you that her doppelganger was shaking

(01:09:24):
her ass down at Benny's topless, did you go check
it out? And he's like, oh, I just thought that
couldn't be true. Jill was shy. She wouldn't even fuck
with the lights on. And it's like, so it's a
coincidence that you heard about this strip or twin of
your wife and then days later she was found brutally murdered.
And he's like, I wish I would have found her
so that Tommy would have been safe with me and
not watching her get murdered by some maniac.

Speaker 3 (01:09:46):
And Stabler he knows it. Huh, Yeah, now he knows. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:09:53):
So Stabler is outside court maybe and maybe he's setting
that up that the jury would think like this guy
would never let his kids sit there and watch a
murder happen, but he did. So Stabler's outside court with Kim.
She looks nervous as hell, but then she sees Tommy
walking over with Olivia and it's this is like the

(01:10:14):
sweetest exchange, Like she like goes over to him, kneels
sound and goes, do you know who I am? And
she's like, you're my real mom and he's like, I
have your picture. You miss my birthday and she's like,
I'm sorry, but I saw your soccer playoffs last year
when you scored that big goal. And he's like lights up.
He's like, you saw that, why didn't you come see me?

(01:10:35):
And she goes, I was scared and he immediately goes
of dad like, you know not he knows and this kid,
I wrote, Jesus, has this kid had a psyche val
yet or what?

Speaker 2 (01:10:45):
Like?

Speaker 3 (01:10:45):
What is happening? Like where's the evol like?

Speaker 1 (01:10:49):
And then she goes, yeah, he scares me a lot,
and Tommy whispers me too. It's so heartbreaking, and she goes,
I'll never go away again, and he's like, do you promise,
and she's like yes, and she's crying and they're hugging. Next,
Cabot calls Tommy to the stand and he walks into
the courtroom holding his mom's hand. Dan looks shook when

(01:11:12):
he sees his you know, his tramp wife who ran
off with another man. And so Dan is like glaring
at Tommy while he's on the stand Cabot asks Tommy
a few questions, and he is so scared of his daddy,
won't take eyes. I like it when the lawyer stands
in between yea to kind of block the view because
he's only eyes on his dad. He's terrified, and then

(01:11:34):
the like you won't speak, and the judge goes, this
child is in no state to testify, and Cabot goes,
all right and he can go and holds his hand
and walks him towards the gallery and the dad leans
over and it's almost like it's almost like the episode
wouldn't have ended this way if the dad had just
fucking not done this. But he leans over and goes,
I love you son with all the warmth of a blizzard.

(01:11:54):
I mean, it's really not since here at all. And
Tommy nervously looks to his mom and it's like seeing
his mom gives him like the strength, and he looks
back to his dad and said says, you killed Jill,
just like straight up, and she.

Speaker 3 (01:12:09):
You know you got it.

Speaker 1 (01:12:10):
It's like a cute little boy, Yeah, you killed Jill,
and but he says it like it's not mumbling. He
says it right like, and then Cheney's like for a mistrial,
like immediately physics, Yeah, and the judge calls for order,
but again, what did the psychevol where is it? The

(01:12:32):
judge calls for order, Cabot asked Tommy, are you okay?
And he goes, I'm ready, I can do it now,
and he's so brave.

Speaker 3 (01:12:39):
So I think he's.

Speaker 1 (01:12:39):
Gonna get back on the stand and he's gonna fucking
say what he just said. So now Dan Hoffman looks
furious as Tommy gets back on the stand, and that's
dick wolf baby. And I did notice as the credits
were rolling that there's a woman in the episode named
Woman Number one and her name is Kate Middleton, So
I don't know what maybe both first Ladies of England
have been on USA networks.

Speaker 2 (01:13:00):
I also I like the person playing the mom and
I feel like I know her.

Speaker 1 (01:13:04):
I know, and I looked her up and her name
is like Signey something, but she's not in anything anyone.
They're Sydney Coleman, she h Like I thought I recognized
her from stuff too. I guess she was in a
couple ups of the X Files. She was on The
Young and the Restless for like twelve years or ten
years or something.

Speaker 2 (01:13:26):
Well, it's Sydney Coleman and it's an American theoretical physicist.

Speaker 3 (01:13:30):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:13:31):
Oh yeah, this woman's Signey and she stopped acting in
twenty twelve, so maybe.

Speaker 2 (01:13:37):
It's not an accident that I'm on this Sie physicists page.

Speaker 3 (01:13:41):
Waits, maybe it's meant to be. Damn, she looks hot. Okay,
see aged amazing? Who the actress or the hot physicist?
Oh okay, physicist is not sexy. I just think he
died into the seven. He's a man.

Speaker 2 (01:14:03):
Signy or Google photos sexual.

Speaker 3 (01:14:07):
Yeah, she was great.

Speaker 1 (01:14:08):
I mean, I'm really interested to hear the cases, just because.

Speaker 3 (01:14:14):
I know I'm going to be sad.

Speaker 2 (01:14:15):
But well, and I wonder because we got okay, so
basically on the wiki, it's not based on a crime
we couldn't figure out, so we kind of made it work,
and that doesn't happen often.

Speaker 1 (01:14:27):
I would say, Well, we got in touch with Neil Baert,
our guy, Yeah, and he said that it wasn't really
based on anything specific. He said that he had read
about this domestic violence underground railroad. But whenever I was
trying to look it up, I found a website that
I'm going to use I'm going to share for what
would sister peg do. But like I didn't find specific

(01:14:49):
cases that was just like an organization, like a TV organization,
They're not going to like funnel you from place to
place a hidie. So I was and then I feel
like we broke we broke open the case.

Speaker 3 (01:14:59):
So we found stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:15:01):
Yeah, so with some research and then I kind of
like was looking up things that would fit this and
then wildly it all really works together and I'm glad
we get to kind of dive into it.

Speaker 3 (01:15:13):
And one is in New York, so you know, we
can be more connected.

Speaker 2 (01:15:17):
Even so, this is the case of Charlie Nicholson, and
the court case was like Nicholson versus Williams, and it's
basically defending parental rights of mothers who are domestic violence victims.
And this went down around nineteen ninety nine. So Nicholson

(01:15:40):
was a single mother of two young children, Kendall Cole's
and Destiny. And so like Destiny is a baby, Kendall,
her son is six years old, and she was in
the relationship with the youngest daughter's father, Claude Barnett, but
he lived in South Carolina and he would go to
Brooklyn monthly to see his child, and then on January

(01:16:02):
twenty seventh, nineteen ninety nine, he decided to beat the
shit out of her, and he kicked her, punched her,
and threw stuff at her, and her head was bleeding.
So she called nine to one to one and she
made arrangements for a neighbor to take her children while
she was in the hospital, and then once she found
out she had to be there overnight, she gave officers
the name of relatives who could care for the children
and her absence. And she said she was quoted like

(01:16:25):
in the Times, that she slept peacefully at King's County Hospital,
knowing the neighbors and her cousin.

Speaker 3 (01:16:30):
Had her kids.

Speaker 2 (01:16:31):
So and then the next day instead, the Administration of
Child Children's Services ACS, a worker, instead took custody of
her children. They decided that the kids were an imminent
risk if they stayed with her, because she couldn't protect
herself or them while he was beating her. And I'm like,
did you arrest him?

Speaker 3 (01:16:48):
But okay. The ACS also.

Speaker 2 (01:16:50):
Filed charges of neglect against her for engaging in acts
of domestic violence in the presence of their child. They
also cited that she didn't show up to court once
like back in the day, and it was the day
of a severe snowstorm. So it's like they just I
have no I mean, I can't even Nicholson says, I
didn't know I'd end up down that road and that

(01:17:11):
calling for help would escalate and I'd end up losing
my kids. So now another kind of fear tactic. Yeah,
so women don't reach out because this is going on,
this could happen. It's it reminds me of like always
and but it reminds me of like the case of
the massage the Margaret Show episode we did, and how
like they pretend to care but punish the victims constantly

(01:17:34):
when they're women and the men get to just kind
of skirt on, but like you're tougher on this woman
who got the ship beat out of her than the
person that did it.

Speaker 3 (01:17:41):
Yeah, it's so fucked.

Speaker 2 (01:17:43):
So February fourth, ninety nine, family court ordered that her
kids be returned to her, but she was kept on
state records as a neglectful parent, and so Nicholson and
a bunch of others filed a class action suit against
the ACS that it deprived them of their fourteenth Amendment,
you know for due process, which I guess is a
thing of the past, now, okay, So two thousand and four,

(01:18:07):
So May third, two thousand and four. The NYCLU, so
I just the New York a CILIU chapter joined them,
and basically they showed that they had a gender bias
that blames abused mothers and that this harms children, and
that the acs failed to exercise a minimum degree of
care like I can't. So October twenty six, two thousand

(01:18:27):
and four, the New York Court of Appeals unanimously held
that a mother's inability to protect a child from witnessing
abuse does not constitute a neglect and therefore cannot be
the sole basis for removal. Only in the rarest instance
do you remove a child, and you have to think
about the psychological.

Speaker 3 (01:18:42):
Harm on the children.

Speaker 2 (01:18:44):
So New York did agreed to pay more than six
hundred thousand dollars to settle with three of the families
in the lawsuit. And that was in two thousand and two,
and there was fifteen families total in the class action.

Speaker 3 (01:18:54):
And then a woman from.

Speaker 2 (01:18:55):
Queen's and her four kids got three hundred grand Nicholson
and another mar there Shirlene Tillet got one hundred and
fifty grand each, and the settlement also had like that
the city had to pay the plaintif Sleegal fees and
the Charlene Tillet case is fucking insane. So she was
twenty nine and pregnant. Her baby's father and former boyfriend
came over one night and pummeled her. That's not my words,

(01:19:18):
that's the paper, that's like the New York Times, and
not the first time, but it was the last. And
she was like, that's it. I'm gonna have my baby
and I'm gonna move to California. So she got like
everything together to move to California. So she gave birth
to a healthy baby boy in New York and New
York at Jamaica Hospital Medical Center. And usually after you
give birth, like social workers and people always ask about

(01:19:39):
DV it's part of the questionnaire, it's the thing, and
so she asked, she answered candidly. Then the baby's father
was the one that picked up from the hospital and
she goes obviously a grave mistake. So then the social
worker filed a complaint to the state Register on Child
Abuse and Neglect and the next day child Welfare came
with officers and carried away her two day old son.

Speaker 3 (01:20:00):
Oh my god, I'm gonna be sick, charged her.

Speaker 2 (01:20:03):
With child neglect and it took seven weeks to get
her baby back.

Speaker 3 (01:20:07):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:20:09):
And at the time of this article in two thousand,
she was living in a homeless shelter because but like
she and then she got in trouble for not having
a crib. She goes, I am moving to California, Like
I am moving. She had a plane take like, she
had everything set to go to California two day old.
They thought that would be the best thing for a baby,
not arresting a man that hit her.

Speaker 3 (01:20:29):
Oh my god, that's fucking awful.

Speaker 2 (01:20:32):
Like iast all the time because I'm like, we wouldn't
know about this. I didn't even know things like this
could happen. It happens right here in our state. And
it's like, fuck, I can't even fucking fathom taking any
day all the way.

Speaker 1 (01:20:46):
Yeah, and they look for excuses like I'm sure even
like like they can come in and be quote unquote
investigating the DV claim and then be like, oh, you
don't have a crib. It's like okay, Well, then there
are agencies that can get her a crib, Like, it's
not that's not worthy of taking away a baby for
seven weeks a new fucking baby.

Speaker 3 (01:21:06):
No, And there's supposed to be a best set, like
you don't even.

Speaker 1 (01:21:08):
Need a fucking gab at that don't No, you don't
even need a crib And it's just no. Unfortunately, with ACS,
like with any kind of like child and Family services,
there's a lot of personal bias that people will go
into homes, and like I had to learn about this
when I was a casa where they would like give us.
They would say, like, you walk into a home, you
see X, y Z, what are your immediate thoughts And

(01:21:30):
you have to like check your own bias because just
because that's not like what your house would look like,
that doesn't mean it's an unsafe house for a child.
Like they would say stuff like no rugs on the
floor or like a vase within reach of the kids
or something like that. It's like, that's not reason to
be And these are just off the top of my head.
There would be other ones, you know, like that's not
reason to be removed.

Speaker 3 (01:21:52):
You know, we have, but there's a lot of biases.

Speaker 2 (01:21:55):
Yeah, and then I think about the cases in New
York where children died because of necklaces with this department.
So it's like, how are you evil and bad on
both sides of the spectrum where you're letting children be
in a dog cage starved over months where you should
have been there, and then in there you're also dame
place you're also taking away two year old children from

(01:22:16):
a domestic violence victim. Like I don't understand. I know, like,
how are you bad on both spectrum? Ends is confusing
to me.

Speaker 3 (01:22:25):
So Judge Clark v.

Speaker 2 (01:22:28):
Richardson of the Bronx Family Court said the obvious, it's
difficult because you're victimizing these people twice and the children.

Speaker 3 (01:22:36):
Everyone.

Speaker 2 (01:22:37):
The New York Times did a big piece on this
and they talked to this judge a lot, so it's like,
we get it. If there's DV in the home and
the chances of child abuse does go up, and they wrote,
you know, unrelated, but especially if there's an unrelated a
non relative male in the home, immediately abuse goes up.
That's why I don't trust step dads. Unfortunately, that's my bias.

(01:22:57):
That's my bias. I'm like, are you a pedi? While
if you're a stepdad.

Speaker 3 (01:23:00):
Immediately go are you a pedophile or not?

Speaker 2 (01:23:02):
And I start analyzing you, and it's because of Rosie
Prez's episode, and it is what it is.

Speaker 3 (01:23:07):
Like, I'm sorry, the Will are Net. No, those are
separate now, isn't.

Speaker 1 (01:23:12):
HER's the Will Arnett or No? No, no, you're right,
different on different one. He is, Yeah, they're both Nambler related.

Speaker 3 (01:23:20):
But I get my Nambla episodes mixed up. I'm sorry. Yeah,
I was.

Speaker 2 (01:23:24):
Just talking to someone who's a fan of s you,
but casually, like obviously, but they were talking about how
all the athletes never look that good. It's like always
ill fitting oversizes to He's like, the athletes never look
that sharp.

Speaker 3 (01:23:36):
And I was looking through and I go, you're right.

Speaker 2 (01:23:38):
But anyways, this is not about fashion. Okay, we're here.
Oh yeah, unrelated males, not even related to this case.
So like, obviously DV does increase the chance of child abuse,
and that seeing abuse does affect children, or even seeing
like fighting within the home. And this all stemmed from

(01:24:00):
thing that I think was trying to be helpful. In
nineteen ninety eight, the state court ruled it declared incidents
of DV in the presence of a child to be
sufficient grounds of charge of neglect. But to me, it's like,
why don't you help the women leave and arrest the men,
Like why with all these rules to take kids away

(01:24:20):
but not punish these motherfuckers. It is so crazy. Richardson's like, sure,
it's failure. Richardson's like, damn sure, it's failure to protect children.
But the victim has done nothing wrong or negligent and
probably just lack the financial and emotional resources to leave
an abusive partner.

Speaker 3 (01:24:38):
And like, do you.

Speaker 1 (01:24:39):
Think this is an incentive? Like do you think if
you say, hey, ladies, like you're gonna lose your kids
if you let your husband beat you, so you better
get out of there.

Speaker 3 (01:24:46):
Like that's not how it works, Like I know.

Speaker 2 (01:24:49):
But that's what we're we've were learning, especially now with
this presidency is the and we know this, but the
human traffickers, the pedophiles, and the abusers are in charge
of all of it. They want to punish women, they
want to punish brown people. We are seeing all this
this is season four, Like you know what I mean.
So he says, these cases are a daunting exercise and

(01:25:13):
balancing interests and so that's to the Times. And so
they did this pilot program where they placed all these
cases under one judge so that this judge, Richardson, could
help have uniformity on how these decisions would be made.
So he saw forty or so of these cases, and
the majority of them he sent the children back home.

(01:25:33):
And it's a judgment call on the case workers, like
they should be only making the decision if the evidence
really shows the child is in imminent danger. And that's
a paraphrase of Nicholas Scapetta, and he's the Commissioner of
the Administration.

Speaker 3 (01:25:47):
Of Children's Services. But I just can't. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:25:51):
It's also bad so and that's to the Times. But
they get it wrong, and that's basically why the class
actions do happen. They get it wrong so much. And
it also, like we keep saying, it keeps victims of
DV from taking action because of the threat of their
children being taken away. And yes, it is hard for
children to watch abuse, but it's also hard when they're
suddenly taken from their parents' care, like what the fuck?

(01:26:14):
And again, none of their solutions make it easier to
prosecute domestic violence people or trust women or put away abusers,
but cops feed their wives, so it doesn't fucking matter.

Speaker 3 (01:26:22):
Like I don't know what to.

Speaker 2 (01:26:23):
Say, Like, I don't know why all of the effort
is it to be harsher on.

Speaker 3 (01:26:30):
I'm a criminal?

Speaker 1 (01:26:32):
Yeah, what about a three strikes you're out fucking rule
for DV you know, like why are we not doing that?

Speaker 5 (01:26:39):
No?

Speaker 1 (01:26:39):
Do that for when we do that for like turnstile jumping,
don't wait like or they're like their husband.

Speaker 2 (01:26:45):
But it's also we blame the victim. It's always why
didn't she leave or why didn't she do that? Or
well she didn't want to press charges, and then they're
like mad at those people.

Speaker 3 (01:26:54):
It's also very strange. It's so strange.

Speaker 1 (01:26:58):
Yeah, somebody has any empathy or compassion or can put
theirselves in anyone else's fucking shoes for two seconds and
consider what it might be like for them. Not nobody,
but a lot of people, and most people that you
know all the like, there's these fucking people right now
with what's happening with the with snap and everything, and
people are just like get a jaw. It's like you
have no idea what's going on in people's lives. It's

(01:27:18):
fucking crazy.

Speaker 3 (01:27:19):
Like some people don't have legs. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:27:21):
Yeah, they can't have they can't have people and the control.

Speaker 1 (01:27:27):
Over rural you live in some rural ass town in Kentucky.
Like I heard of some town in Kentucky that's like
a ninety eight percent of them are on snap. There's nothing,
there's no work there, Like you know, you don't what
job do you want everyone to go get?

Speaker 2 (01:27:40):
Like yeah, And then it's even more sick where it's
like they shouldn't get to shop, they should get a
box of food and eat rice and me and what
we give you and and it's like.

Speaker 1 (01:27:50):
You are sick, you are sick. It's such a small
amount of money. It's such a small amount of money
out of taxpayers pockets. It's such a small amount of
money that we give people, and they ca.

Speaker 2 (01:28:00):
The fucking puritanical nature of the early settlers.

Speaker 3 (01:28:06):
Oh God, Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:28:07):
So Fay did pass away in August of twenty twenty four,
So rest in peace.

Speaker 3 (01:28:13):
So she was.

Speaker 2 (01:28:16):
A Georgia woman who ran an underground network out of
her Atlanta home to help high children who had been abused.
Somethink hero, something kidnapper and vigilante the network did not
take children without a guardian's involvement. And that's what she
said to the Detroit Free Press in twenty eleven. So
it's not like so it's not kidnapped, there's a parent. Well,
you know, this is a very debated woman, I will say.

(01:28:41):
So these plans took months, and the kids would get
new names forged id papers, all of this. And the
reason she got into this was she was married to
a man that the courts did not believe abused their daughter.

Speaker 3 (01:28:51):
And then years later he.

Speaker 2 (01:28:53):
Was on the FBI most Wanted list as a sexual
predator and he ended up getting a multiple guilty verdicts
for being a pedophile, and the courts just didn't listen
even though her four year old had gone a rhea.
Oh my god, this man was considered the first pedophile
to be added to the top ten most wanted list.
He is dead now And if the authorities listened to her,

(01:29:13):
maybe multiple children could have.

Speaker 3 (01:29:15):
Not been molested. So thank you so much, Jesus.

Speaker 2 (01:29:19):
And then her daughter was sent to a mental hospital
and she could not get her daughter back, no amount
of appeals. And then she like married this Atlanta doctor
Howard Yaeger and that's what like sparks her right.

Speaker 3 (01:29:31):
She was feeling ignored.

Speaker 2 (01:29:32):
By the authorities, and that led her to be an
advocate for abused children who are being ignored. So began
in nineteen eighty seven My Year of Birth and Jaeger
read about a Mississippi case involving a woman, Karen Newsom,
who lost custody of her two kids after she accused
her husband of sexually abusing them, and Yager started getting
a lot.

Speaker 3 (01:29:52):
Of media attention.

Speaker 2 (01:29:52):
In the late eighties, she did Heraldo Sally Jesse, Raphael Oprah.
She was doing the circuit, the Circuit Honey, and it
was called the Children of the Underground Network. And the
network was made of people from domestic miland shelters, women's groups,
former nuns. And this is from an A like A
and E from any report on this from Newsweek article

(01:30:13):
from twenty sixteen. The problem with the network is they
are defying the courts, so that is a thing. They're
usually helping non custodial parents, which are mostly mothers. And
we've talked about PERI, We've talked about the biases in
courts and parent alienation syndrome and all of that, and
how abusers get custody of children, even when mothers plead

(01:30:36):
and then thirty Yeah it sucks. So so it's you know,
they're working with non custodial parents. And she claimed to
have helped over like a thousand children over the years.
It was a network about two hundred women. A lot
of them were abused as children or you know, they
had abused children, and they shelter the victims in their
homes as they post for as relatives for several weeks,

(01:30:59):
and then they continue hostly, we're moving from shelters, and
then they would limit the stays at each place for
two to three days because local police officials like would
regularly go to the shelters to look for missing people,
which I didn't know, but I guess yeh, like, if
someone's in the shelter, they're hiding, so why are you
in there looking, especially when they have such high rates

(01:31:23):
of DV in the police departments.

Speaker 3 (01:31:26):
But also.

Speaker 2 (01:31:28):
I don't know, I don't love it, but they had
a plan. So and they would give people the new
birth certificate and driver's licenses, which again illegal. They stole
names from birth certificates of dead people. There was a
lot of you know, greyhounds train stations, wigs, pillows, and
but on nineteen ninety two, she was put on trial,

(01:31:48):
you know, like she has a kidnapper, but she's helping
where the justice system fails. So her defense lawyer is like, hey,
if it wasn't for her, like, what would have happened
to all these kids. His name is Robert Ferrier, her attorney,
and like he brought up you know, she's a mother

(01:32:08):
of an abused child, and the courts returned the child
to her abuser, Like I yeah, I've really it sickens me.
He maintained that she was being tried for being a
thorn in the side of local officials. I'm sure she
was annoying to be around, you know, and it is
confirmed later she had a tough personality.

Speaker 3 (01:32:31):
Yeah, but it's okay.

Speaker 2 (01:32:33):
So she was charged with cruelty to children, kidnapping, an
interference with custody, and the charges stem from a case
with two Florida children who were brought to her in
April of nineteen ninety by their mother, saying she was
fleeing an abusive husband. But there are tapes of Yaeger
like yelling at the kids and pushing them to remember
more about the abuse and the boy is like begging
for his mom and doesn't like the interrogation. So that

(01:32:55):
was like a, you know, not good evidence towards her,
but since a parent knew it was happening, you couldn't
say it was like kidnap.

Speaker 3 (01:33:04):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:33:05):
The possible sentence for this was sixty years. But she
was acquitted May of nineteen ninety two. The jury deliberated
for less than three hours after a four week trial
that included fifty five witnesses, So kind of a I
mean I liked that she was acquitted, Oh the buck
and so, but like tons of millionaires ended up mad
at her too, like this ended up being her demise
kind of but she's back and strong, but I mean dead,

(01:33:27):
But we'll get to it. So there was a guy Bippin'
show and he ended up being on the cover of
Time magazine in May nineteen ninety eight, offering a two
million dollar reward for the return of his two young children,
and he did end up finding them at his wife's
home in Switzerland and brought them back to the US,
but he did a one hundred million dollar lawsuit against

(01:33:49):
her in nineteen ninety nine, so.

Speaker 3 (01:33:52):
Tough tough time.

Speaker 1 (01:33:53):
Oh, because she helped get them to Switzerland, got it.

Speaker 3 (01:33:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:33:57):
And another group I found in my research for the
New York Times article in nineteen eighty eight talked about
another group, the Mother's Against Raping Children a really direct name.

Speaker 3 (01:34:07):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:34:08):
Yeah, and Lydia Rayner and Yager would offer shelter to
women and children and she routed them through private homes
in several states in Canada. And she said she gets
at least two calls a day from desperate women needing help.
And Yeager was a member of this group and worked
with them, and they did less illegal stuff though they
mostly helped with money, makeup, hair styles like changing the

(01:34:30):
appearance of people, which is a temporary solution, but they
worked inside the laws more so Yager helped found it.

Speaker 3 (01:34:37):
But with these two women.

Speaker 2 (01:34:39):
Sarah King and this woman her last name is Gooch,
and I don't really know how to be calmer about it.
And then I also wrote that her name is denied,
but it must be Denise, Yeah, it must be. It
can't be denied Gooch. I think it's Denise Gooch. And

(01:34:59):
Sarah Kanks she yet sorry. They asked her to leave
the group. They said she was just too much. She
was exaggerating numbers, and they didn't want to focus on
the underground railroad but wanted to focus on her to
make the system better. They said she had a rough personality,
they liked her message, by a woman who worked with
her said the personality hurt their message, so she had

(01:35:22):
to go. And the woman Amy Nustein, who said that
as a sociologist, and she wrote a book from Madness
to Mutiny While Mothers are running from the family Courts
and what can be Done with it?

Speaker 3 (01:35:34):
Long title.

Speaker 2 (01:35:35):
She added that Fay wanted to publicize how desperate people
were and how the system is failing, like they had
no choice but to run. So she was also trying
to make people aware like the system sucks, but we
can work within it and help you. And that's according
to Newsweek. She also made clear to Newsweek that yeah,
you're only took cases that involved documented abuse, so abusive.

Speaker 3 (01:35:55):
Documented, no hearsay.

Speaker 2 (01:35:58):
The DA from Cobb County that's her in the early
nineties said someone with good intentions who nevertheless had become obsessed.
And that's LA's time was via AATV and then the
Mark Group, you know, others against raping children helped.

Speaker 3 (01:36:12):
Women who led law abiding.

Speaker 2 (01:36:14):
Lives kind of like live as fugitives honestly, Like they
had to help women mask their identities only use cash.

Speaker 3 (01:36:21):
And that's the thing when they're like why don't you leave?
Why don't you leave?

Speaker 2 (01:36:23):
And it's like, okay, what does what do these women's
lives look like outside of it? And then one of
the solutions is like they should have their own money
and jobs.

Speaker 3 (01:36:33):
And it's like the.

Speaker 2 (01:36:34):
People that are pretending to care about women, it's like
they want them in the home and dependent on men
so they can't escape. Yeah, and yet why didn't you leave?
Why didn't you leave? And it's like, well now she
can only use cash. She can't use his IDs, no
credit card, no nothing, like you're true.

Speaker 1 (01:36:50):
And then not everybody has like their parents to fall
back on, or a wealthy aunt or like whatever, you
know what I mean, Like some of these people have
no family, nowhere to go.

Speaker 3 (01:36:59):
And that's my.

Speaker 2 (01:37:00):
Design too, because usually as of people isolate you, so
it's really fucked up. And then oftentimes the kids don't
go to school or the doctor dentist or get proper
nututrician or anything like that because they're on the run.
So you know, critics say that makes things worse, but
I don't know what's worse than you know, being like
raped by your father. So some lawyers are like, well,
if you go underground and may underscore a husband's charge

(01:37:22):
that a mother is vindictive, and then it diminishes her
chances of winning custody. But the only reason she's running
is because you've already fucked her up. Like, why does
an abuse and rape seem more vindictive than trying to
go undercover and deny parental rights to an abuser. It's
fucking crazy. And you know, obviously they're like, but going
underground fucks them up. It's like they're being abused. And

(01:37:44):
then one child psychologist at Harvard, doctor Carolyn Neuberger, said
sexual abuse erodes a child's sense of identity and control.
Whisking a child into the underground only further traumatizes the child.
And that's to the times. And then also just a
fact is like only one to six percent of child
abuse claims are fabricated, and that's from a cheat sheet
from the Center of the Center for Judicial Excellence.

Speaker 1 (01:38:09):
Yeah, I'm sorry, Like I get it's traumatizing to move
from place to place and maybe like have a little
some food insecurity, But I agree, it's better than being
routinely assaulted by your own parent.

Speaker 2 (01:38:22):
Yeah, so Nick Nick National Center for Missing and Exploited
Children are like, listen, you can't break the lawn, kidnap
and interfere with the process, no matter your good intentions.

Speaker 3 (01:38:31):
But in twenty sixteen, Newsweek reported that she still was.

Speaker 2 (01:38:33):
Running a fourteen room bed and breakfast with her husband
in North Carolina, and she was tracked down thereafter not
being in the spotlight by the Minnesota Star Tribune. Casey,
I don't know if you're familiar with them, and so
at sixty and she was at six, she was sixty
eight years old, and she's talking to news Week in
twenty sixteen, she goes, oh, I retired from the public eye,
but I've never given up, and my network's as busy

(01:38:55):
as ever. And I just, yeah, attention and media is
what cost me a lot, But I would never like
give up my ability to help children and the way
I want to help them.

Speaker 3 (01:39:04):
So go fuck yourselves.

Speaker 2 (01:39:06):
And she said she's helped over seven thousand people, but
it has been just quiet and working. And twenty twenty two,
the FX network created a five episode TV mini series
about fay Acre called Children of the Underground.

Speaker 1 (01:39:18):
In twenty twenty two. I feel like I know everything
that comes out on e F Facts.

Speaker 3 (01:39:21):
We should watch that, I know. I like it's a creoticy.

Speaker 1 (01:39:25):
I mean it is true though, like if something like
this is going to exist, like you can't get pressed,
like you can't, you know, like you can't. It has
to be like a whisper network, like people just passing
your name from place to place and like never anyone
knowing like who's in charge. But I'm glad she was
still at it until she died last year. Hopefully she
passed it on to somebody.

Speaker 3 (01:39:48):
Yeah. Fuck, that's so crazy, it's really.

Speaker 1 (01:39:52):
Anyway, thank you for that that dark dark uh.

Speaker 2 (01:39:56):
And is watching the episode and you're like all these
like holes and it's like, no, it's.

Speaker 3 (01:40:02):
Honestly like it could have been worse.

Speaker 2 (01:40:04):
Yeah, it's like so final crazy, Oh bias.

Speaker 3 (01:40:10):
Well, we have a great guest, so don't anybody go anywhere.

Speaker 1 (01:40:21):
Our guest today is nineties television Royalty, A huge part
of my youth. He portrayed Christopher Lorenzo in the show's
Silk Stockings, then later was Kyle McBride on melrose Place,
but you know him today as the psycho with a smile.
Dan Hoffman, please enjoy our combo with the lovely Rob Estes. Hi, Rob,

(01:40:41):
how are you good?

Speaker 3 (01:40:44):
It's so nice to meet you.

Speaker 2 (01:40:46):
We've still been waiting for this moment for a long time,
waiting all my life.

Speaker 1 (01:40:52):
We're I mean, you don't understand. I was a huge Like,
I was such a melrose Place person, Like, oh, right off.
When I saw you in this as View episode Younger,
I was like, not Kyle, although, wait, isn't it just
to really quickly go to melrose before we get into SVU,
Like how do they have you playing one guy on

(01:41:13):
seasons one and two and then they bring you back
as a totally different guy. I mean they do that
on SVU all the time, but it's a different kind
of show.

Speaker 8 (01:41:20):
I was only I think I was on two episodes, okay,
season and Aaron. I did a pilot for Aaron Spelling
with Adrian Brody, Heather Graham, Leon, myself, Clarence Williams was
a great pilot and it didn't get picked up. And
Aaron Spelling, He's like, I mean it was long story.

(01:41:42):
Somebody really biffed it. But Aaron called one night and he.

Speaker 5 (01:41:46):
Said, hey, uh, Bob, and we're not going to pick
this up, but you want to come do Melrose for me?
And I said, okay, but same character, no, no, no,
completely different character said I've never done this before, what
I'm gonna do it? And I said, okay. So that's
the story of how that happens.

Speaker 1 (01:42:05):
And it's funny because like, there wasn't social media then,
so it's not like everybody could be like, wait, isn't
that Sam like or whatever? You know, like nowadays if
you do that kind of thing and people go nuts.

Speaker 3 (01:42:15):
But yeah, you get.

Speaker 5 (01:42:16):
Rich troll you could I think you could do it
unless they I guess you could if you spun it correctly,
but I don't know how you'd spin that so that
people kind of bought it.

Speaker 1 (01:42:27):
Yeah, so when you do come on to Melrose Place,
you're married to Lisa Renna.

Speaker 5 (01:42:32):
I was to Lisa Ena correct.

Speaker 3 (01:42:35):
That's why the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills or.

Speaker 5 (01:42:39):
I actually avoid that at all costs, understand, But I
have to say Lisa is awesome, she's great, She's she's
a nutbag, right, No, No, I mean she knows she's
a nutbag. Yeah, she's the most honest, morally sound. I

(01:43:01):
would put her in my top ten. She's really awesome.

Speaker 3 (01:43:03):
We love her. Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:43:04):
I think her honesty is what gets her in trouble
on the show. That's for sure.

Speaker 5 (01:43:08):
I think you're right. But it's also why people love her. Yeah.
Why she's such you know, a hit in the in
the social media realm.

Speaker 3 (01:43:16):
She's never been on SVU. She would be so good.
She would be great.

Speaker 2 (01:43:22):
Yeah, like a kind of evil mom that's up to
no good.

Speaker 3 (01:43:26):
Yeah, I want to see her on sv.

Speaker 5 (01:43:27):
Or maybe she's the one that you're sure didn't but
she didn't do it.

Speaker 3 (01:43:31):
Ah, Yes, yeah, she's protecting someone.

Speaker 1 (01:43:34):
We've had your old co star Kathy Griffin from when
you were on Suddenly Susan, We've had her on the podcast.

Speaker 5 (01:43:41):
Yeah. I love Kathy's wild.

Speaker 1 (01:43:44):
Yeah, she's a funny lady. But you were mentioning this
thing where you're a murderer. I guess because like when
I met your character of Kyle on Melrose, you were
always like kind of you were pretty much like a
nice guy. You were like cheating on your wife and
doing some cheating. You weren't like murdering yeah, you weren't

(01:44:05):
like murderous and so I remember watching you in this
SBU and being like, oh wait, but he's like a
nice guy. But then you get cast sometimes to play
these total psychos. How much of your career would you
say that you've been like nice Scott or like the
dad on nine O two and oh or whatever the
reboot of nine O two and oh, Like nice guys
versus like handsome psychopaths.

Speaker 5 (01:44:27):
I think it depends. I think probably in TV and film,
I've been a third of my characters are bad guys,
and then in theater I tend to do more of
the bad guys. Okay, the extremities I did up in Seattle.

(01:44:47):
I did this guy Solioni who ends up killing one
of the leads in Chekhov's Three Sisters Fool for Love
in Scotland I did and that was pretty intense, you know,
sleeping with my sister and yeah, bad things, but it's
it's I really enjoy it. I think I think almost

(01:45:07):
every actor would rather be a bad guy because it
gives you freedoms. You don't have the social norms, you
don't have to be anything other than what the moment demands,
and it's really fun to.

Speaker 3 (01:45:21):
Be that as a theater kid.

Speaker 5 (01:45:25):
Oh no, god, no, no. I was an athlete. Well,
so I went to Santa Monica High School. So the
theater geeks at my school were Sean Penn, Charlie c She,
Emilio Estevez so and it was funny because they were
always on buses making movies and they had squibs, and

(01:45:47):
all their dads were producers and and pretty heavy directors
and actors. So they just it was that was nuts.
And so I looked at them and I was like, oh,
that's not my jam. And then I became a stuntman,
and then.

Speaker 1 (01:46:00):
And the stuntman to acting. Pipeline, Yeah it's a thick pipe.

Speaker 3 (01:46:06):
Yeah yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:46:10):
Sunts were cool. But it's it's really especially now it's
a tough gig.

Speaker 3 (01:46:17):
Change.

Speaker 5 (01:46:19):
I think what's changed If you don't have a specialty,
If you can't jump a motorcycle three hundred feet in
the air, that cuts you out for that. If you can't,
if you're not an MMA fire or so, they're just there.
There are X game levels of everything, so it's different.
It used to be you know, you did it all,
You fell off horses, you got hit by cars, you
got to set off fire, you were really good at fighting,

(01:46:41):
and you could make a living with all of those.
And now I think across the board in our life,
like things are just shrunk and you have to have
an absolute ten at one thing and you can go.

Speaker 3 (01:46:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:46:56):
Also, also I feel like not a lot of longevity,
and like in the field you get like injured or
you get older.

Speaker 5 (01:47:02):
But I think I think the stunts ultimately you have
those years where and it is it's really safe.

Speaker 3 (01:47:09):
It's interesting.

Speaker 5 (01:47:10):
You spend most of your time keeping yourself and people
really safe, but you end up coordinating stunts, so you
might not be doing that.

Speaker 3 (01:47:21):
Oh got it. So then you become like the coach essentially, you.

Speaker 5 (01:47:24):
Guys want a stable of people that you used for this.
You got a guy who looks just like Tom Cruise.
So and actually those are the guys that end up
being the coordinators of the guys that have attached themselves
to big stars.

Speaker 3 (01:47:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:47:37):
Wow, I like seeing the photos of step Doubles and
their people together.

Speaker 5 (01:47:43):
I had a guy named Nut for a show that
I did for twelve years. No that's not true, six years,
and it was we we just we went up the
path together for a really long time, and then he
was like, dude, I got I'm doing all these other things.
And I was like, good for you. So it's cool
if you have good people, and he was really exceptional.

Speaker 2 (01:48:03):
Well you also in this episode Sandra Bernhardser lawyer that
fun is was that fun.

Speaker 5 (01:48:10):
Well, you know, she had such a a reputation of
I mean before I ever got there. So I got
this episode because Neil Bear.

Speaker 3 (01:48:20):
We knew it. We knew it, we reached out to
So I reached out to Neil.

Speaker 1 (01:48:24):
He's done our podcast twice, so I reached out to
him and I said, oh, we're doing this desperate as
this episode desperate. We're going to have Rob estays on.
But I wanted to ask him a question about the episode.

Speaker 3 (01:48:33):
And he goes, I love Rob. Tell him. I say, hi,
So this is a hello from Neil Bear to you.

Speaker 5 (01:48:39):
I love he What a good guy. Yeah, we mean
the fact that on er, the fact that he's a
doctor right doing his rounds and he's also writing what
happens in the day to him in his practice. He's
writing er and he does that and he becomes the executs,

(01:49:00):
the producer, and then he's funny because you've got time
for a side story.

Speaker 1 (01:49:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:49:07):
Yeah, So George Clooney.

Speaker 5 (01:49:09):
George Clooney added absolute apex for er Neil Bear had
hired me to do a pilot called Outreach and it
was about a kind of like like a George Hooney
type doctor who's living in Venice and he's down on
his luck. And uh it was it was me and

(01:49:33):
it was me and Mickna.

Speaker 3 (01:49:35):
When I'm looking at the IMDb for it, yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:49:39):
So but it didn't get picked up. And but the
day I got cast and he was like, hey, I
want you to come. I want you to come sit
come watch the r I want you this is gonna happen,
Like this new show is going to be this, So
let's go watch. I'm sitting there watching and we go
to lunch at the cafeteria and George Clooney is sitting
there and he's in his talks. I think it's the episode.

(01:50:00):
I think it's one of those episodes where he's like
in the talks and he saves the day or whatever. Yeah,
we sit down and we just start talking and he
was so cool and then he's like, hey, come play
basketball out at lunch. And I was like, okay, but
what an amazing dude. But anyway, the show didn't get
picked up, and Neil said, hey, about three years later,

(01:50:22):
he said, I'm doing this this show the SPU. When
you come to an episode, you get to be a
bad guy. And I was like, yeah, I would love to.

Speaker 2 (01:50:29):
I knew it was an offer. I knew you did
an audition for this, like you're so perfect in it,
and yeah, it's so good, so scary go back to
Sandra Bernhard.

Speaker 5 (01:50:39):
Everybody like, you know, I was in an acting class
and they were like, hey, Sandra's supposed to be really
tough to work with, and you know, if she can
get under your skin, you're in trouble. And I'm like, really, shit, Okay,
I don't know what to expect. She could not have
been cooler.

Speaker 3 (01:50:59):
Yeah, and she's it was great.

Speaker 5 (01:51:01):
She knew what she wanted and totally like you know,
just back and forth and she was great. So you know,
you can talk, you can talk a lot of shit.

Speaker 3 (01:51:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:51:12):
I know that you shot this like literally twenty three
years ago or something, but do you have any like
do you remember doing this like scene with Marishka where
you're like you didn't have a badge and a gun,
you wouldn't be talking to me like this like you
were kind of that's like, that's like sort of where
you face crack a little bit and we see that
you're not this father of the Year guy that you're
trying to like show everybody that you are.

Speaker 5 (01:51:34):
Yeah, I'm trying to remember.

Speaker 3 (01:51:36):
I remember.

Speaker 5 (01:51:37):
It was really cool and they were cool.

Speaker 3 (01:51:42):
They're a good tea.

Speaker 5 (01:51:43):
I think that's why that show's done so well. Yeah,
and they were hilarious, like I can't what's his.

Speaker 3 (01:51:51):
Name, sorry, Christopher Maloney, Kristph.

Speaker 5 (01:51:54):
Yeah, Chris was like, hey, you do that Silk Stocking show.
You did that Silk Stocking show. I love that fuck
the show. I was like, yeah, I did, I did
that show. He's like, yeah, it was great. It's just
like you know, it's kind of like what we do here.
It's like a you know, a male female cop team.
I'm like, yeah, but you guys did really well. But

(01:52:14):
he was cool. They were both great.

Speaker 1 (01:52:16):
Yeah, Silk Stockings was like a lot used it. One
hundred episodes of that that's was on for That used
to be on the USA Network when I was a kid,
before the Law and Order SPU became the only thing
that's on the USA network.

Speaker 5 (01:52:30):
And it was it was I think I think Silk
had been dead for two years. And interestingly enough, Stephen
Cannell who produced Silk Stockings. He he also did twenty
one Jump Street book Er. He did so many shows
and CBS was going to put our show on prime
time and weeks before it happened, Segansky changed his mind.

(01:52:55):
He's like, he said to Candle, you know what a
cable show. If I bring a cable show onto my network,
it makes me look like my network isn't great. And
we were like, you're like what, and he said, yeah,
I can't do it. If this was if this was
a show on a different network, maybe, but I can't
do it. And it was funny because now it's the opposite,

(01:53:18):
you know, And he had a chance to break complete, right,
he just kind of I get it, Dough. I get
the temperature was a little different back then and cable
was a weaker thing, but man, it would have blown up.
He would have killed it.

Speaker 1 (01:53:34):
Yeah, it's like one of those shows that's like now
if it's on cable and it goes to Netflix. Now
everybody's like rediscovering like suits or something, you know.

Speaker 5 (01:53:41):
Yeah, and you could have toned it down. I Mean
one of the reasons SO did well as a late
night was it crimetime after Primetime? I think was the Moniker.
It did well because we pushed envelopes. Now every show
push is envelope. Yeah, it was just I think it
was just bear too ahead of the time. I think

(01:54:01):
had we been on Fox, Fox, who've done it because
they were already realizing that pushing an envelope is what.

Speaker 3 (01:54:08):
Yeah, they were doing all that nypdlu stuff.

Speaker 5 (01:54:12):
Yeah, Hardian says were getting smarter than were used to seeing,
you know, kind of a little frisky your life a
little more fire.

Speaker 3 (01:54:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:54:21):
When they showed Dennis Franz's butt on NYPD Blue and fell,
it was like a watershed moment in television.

Speaker 5 (01:54:28):
How good was that show?

Speaker 3 (01:54:29):
I mean that was that?

Speaker 1 (01:54:31):
Like you that was the thing, Like everybody was always
talking about the thing that happened on NYPD Blue that
you had never seen on you know, network TV before.

Speaker 5 (01:54:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:54:39):
So and SVU now does stuff that I'm like, I
can't believe this isn't on HBO. I mean like they
some of this stuff is like really graphic, like really
and you're like, you know, but you're right, like your
show was pushing it before they were pushing it.

Speaker 2 (01:54:52):
Nope, So do you remember kind of no, you know,
how do you play a person you know as a
psycho evil but does have this good guy I persona
to everybody but these detectives or you play it like
you think you're the good guy.

Speaker 5 (01:55:08):
Yeah, you I mean, I think I think the majority
of people who do bad things think that they are
good guys.

Speaker 3 (01:55:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:55:15):
I mean you're lying because you have to to help.
I mean there's probably a partner's head that that if
he was convicted for this murder, his son was going
to have a really bad life and I wouldn't be
around for him. And yeah, but you're just everything. Yeah,

(01:55:35):
when you play everything's.

Speaker 9 (01:55:37):
Okay, it comp right, they can and then I think
it's it's when you know, these guys are put in
a situation that they cannot talk their way out of,
or buy their way out of, or manipulate their way
out of, then then it changes.

Speaker 2 (01:55:54):
Yeah, because he was the King of Rye, the King.

Speaker 3 (01:55:59):
Do you want to talk about your upcoming projects?

Speaker 5 (01:56:02):
Yeah, I would love to the stars. It's with Andy Garcia,
Alec Pettifer. Oh yes, cast shot at in Puglia, Italy
for a month and a half, which was super fun.
He was very enjoyable. And it's just about a young

(01:56:23):
writer who has lost his art. He's lost his way
and he's I play his agent. That's just you know that,
who cares if you've lost your way? Make me money,
just write something. It's not about art. It's about let's go,
let's publish. I need I need money. But good things
happened to him and uh Andy Garcia is hilarious. Oh

(01:56:48):
my god. I was like, he came up with a
couple of things that were so good and I'll you know,
if he had his son come and be with him
in Italy for uh I think a couple of weeks
of filming and they had they just seem to have
like the coolest relationship because it's like an old kid.

(01:57:10):
He's like twenty something and you know, Andy had him
in one of the scenes and directed him. It was
it was really cool. We had a good time filming it.

Speaker 3 (01:57:19):
That's amazing. You got to go to Italy.

Speaker 5 (01:57:21):
I got hey, I got to go to Italy. Yeah,
I got to go to Italy.

Speaker 1 (01:57:27):
Where where is this movie? Is this going to have
theatrical or is it going to be streaming?

Speaker 5 (01:57:31):
Yes, so it's going to be on Netflix. Oh great,
and I believe it comes out November seventeenth.

Speaker 3 (01:57:37):
Awesome.

Speaker 5 (01:57:38):
Perfect. Yeah, it's it's cool, it's it's it's it's family,
it's it's about love and what's important, which I think
is a good topic for these days.

Speaker 1 (01:57:51):
Yeah, this episode comes out the next day, so you
guys can all go watch under the Stars.

Speaker 3 (01:57:57):
Now.

Speaker 2 (01:57:58):
Wait, but you also just did a movie called The
Italians kind of a theme the theme happening I did.

Speaker 5 (01:58:05):
That was fun. That was that was a low budget
what I say, pet project or I just I love
the character. Uh. Sometimes you get a script and you
read it, you go, I might not be right for this,
but I don't care. This is this is gonna. I
know exactly what I want to do with this.

Speaker 3 (01:58:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:58:24):
And one of those, and it was just it was
a labor of love and it was a lot of
blast with it. Just ripped it out in like twenty
eight days of of fun.

Speaker 3 (01:58:37):
Wait, well then I'm like, what's the character?

Speaker 5 (01:58:40):
So I play an Italian husband who may have cheated
on his wife. It's still love it.

Speaker 3 (01:58:50):
But he may not have Okay, I love that.

Speaker 5 (01:58:55):
It was a little bit up in the up in
the air, but you know, Abigail Breslin.

Speaker 2 (01:59:00):
In it, she's in an s vu as a really
little girl, like a long time ago.

Speaker 3 (01:59:06):
It's one of the best ones.

Speaker 5 (01:59:07):
She did a scene in Times and I was like,
I mean she took something that was just okay and
she made it so good. Yeah, and no Wonder You're
who you are? That was brilliant.

Speaker 1 (01:59:19):
So what are these movies that are like you're always
playing the same person, like After Everything, After Ever, Happy,
After We Fell, After We Collided?

Speaker 5 (01:59:30):
What are those? That is a series of books written
by Anatod with Hero Fine uh oh in Joseph Fine
Landford Langford and so it was huge. It was like
I think there were seven books. I was in five

(01:59:51):
of the films and it was just like young angsty
love and What Things Caught.

Speaker 1 (02:00:00):
You sort of like soapy movies kind of totally but
teen drama, okay, really pushing it, like pushing the envelope.

Speaker 2 (02:00:10):
One of the Sprouses is in one of them. He's like, yes, famous, yeah.

Speaker 5 (02:00:15):
You know he and hero are are became good friends.
And then Beautiful Wedding that Dylan's in he's the star
of those two that kind of came off. One of
the producers of After went and then did Beautiful Wedding
and we're directors as well.

Speaker 1 (02:00:35):
Wait, so when you go do these movies, is it
are these like in Vancouver or you guys go to
like Cool Islands or where are you doing these?

Speaker 5 (02:00:42):
Uh?

Speaker 3 (02:00:42):
The team these teen movies.

Speaker 5 (02:00:45):
Uh, Beautiful Wedding was in Dominican Republic and then the
After series one was in Atlanta and the other were
during COVID. Oh, during COVID in Bulgaria. So we all
we got the top two floors of this high rise

(02:01:05):
and we all got tested three times a day, and
ultimately we all got COVID because one person I've got
the knight that Biden got kind of sworn in. We
had a party and it happened to be Hero's birthday
and we've all been quarantined for so.

Speaker 3 (02:01:23):
You're like, how could we have it? Yeah, he was wrong.

Speaker 5 (02:01:25):
Sad You're already wearing a mask and you're getting tested
at the times and nobody's got it. But I remember
that night is Hero's birthday. We had a party and
we'll look like we're playing games and it's pretty on
cast and remember looking over at one point and we
were drinking looking over and I'm like, all these twenty
two to twenty six year olds were kind of tackling

(02:01:46):
each other on the floor. I just remember growing myself. Wow,
that's that's like a COVID cocktail right there. The next morning,
the lead actress tested positive. By the end of the day,
three other people and then I didn't get it until
eleven days later, but we were all quarantee, like we

(02:02:06):
had to stop filming. Oh my god, I think it's
tri but it was fun.

Speaker 1 (02:02:11):
And then you're just in Bulgaria for a week in
a hotel trying to get better.

Speaker 3 (02:02:17):
Oh my god, it was fourteen days.

Speaker 5 (02:02:19):
I was in food in, food out for fourteen days.

Speaker 3 (02:02:22):
Oh my god.

Speaker 5 (02:02:23):
Stuff.

Speaker 3 (02:02:25):
Yeah, what a time.

Speaker 1 (02:02:27):
I feel like, unless you have any last minute memories
of SVU that are popping into your mind that you
want to give.

Speaker 3 (02:02:33):
Our listeners, we'll let you get on with your day.

Speaker 5 (02:02:37):
If you happen to talk to Neil Beer again, tell
him that I send.

Speaker 3 (02:02:41):
My best I will message him right now and tell
him for sure we're obsessed with him.

Speaker 2 (02:02:45):
But you are one of the classic SVU villains that
have stood the test of time. I mean, we're they're
on season twenty seven, and you're still so very memorable.

Speaker 1 (02:02:55):
That someone had to go through an underground railroad to
escape you. I mean it's like, that's really diabolic. I
get chills in that scene every time I watch.

Speaker 3 (02:03:03):
It, Like, I, I.

Speaker 2 (02:03:05):
Really love this episode, so thank you for doing this.
He was handsome, he was fun. It was a thrill.
I would be a thrill. What a lovely guy.

Speaker 1 (02:03:18):
And I was like, if I could have told like
twelve year old Cara that she was going to be
talking to Kyle on a podcast, she would have said,
what's a podcast? You know?

Speaker 2 (02:03:29):
So yeah, tell us if you want to be the Tommies.
I also do really like the idea of dumpster sluts,
but I understand, wasn't that what it was?

Speaker 3 (02:03:39):
Trash slut? It was it was dumpster dumpster slut.

Speaker 1 (02:03:44):
Maybe yeah, I think, no, Tommy, if you guys tell us,
tell us, tell us if you guys want to be
the Tommies. I kind of love the TMU Tommies. I
think that that's fun. But wigh, And maybe we'll do
a poll when this episode comes out and see if
you guys want us to be people have been sending
in more suggestions, but to me, the Tommies are kind
of it.

Speaker 3 (02:04:06):
I hope they love it. We'll see what they feel. Oh.

Speaker 2 (02:04:08):
Also, I don't know that no show as a hold
on me like this one. But anytime a new season
of Selling Sunset drops, my day is done and I
watch it all in one day.

Speaker 3 (02:04:17):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (02:04:18):
I've never seen it enough in it selling, so I
can't get enough, and I have the reunion waiting for me.

Speaker 2 (02:04:23):
I feel like Salt Lake City. I'm back in, I'm
I'm back in, I'm in. But Selling Sunset takes over
my life for a day. Every time I can't not watch,
I don't. I don't split it into two days ever.

Speaker 1 (02:04:35):
Wow, it's like a must watch, must binge get it
all in.

Speaker 2 (02:04:39):
I never have seen it for a second. I don't
think you would like it. I think you'd be really
not into it.

Speaker 3 (02:04:45):
Really.

Speaker 2 (02:04:46):
Yeah, it's just like I don't think you'd like the houses.
I don't think you'd like the outfits.

Speaker 3 (02:04:51):
I don't know. Maybe.

Speaker 2 (02:04:52):
Well, now now I feel like it's reverse psychology. And
now you're like, oh, you don't think I like it,
I'm gonna fucking watch it.

Speaker 3 (02:04:58):
Yeah, now I'm gonna watch it and fe No, I
mean I got you know, I have, like I liked
Kroshelle on The Traders.

Speaker 2 (02:05:07):
She's on that, Oh yeah she is, and she doesn't
give a fuck, like she lets people have it. But
there was one person she went below thet She just
said something crazy and they had to kick her off
the show. But she will not take accountability. And she
straight up goes, Krishelle, maybe you're projecting because of your
you know, drug addict parents and they both had just died,
and so everyone's like, you.

Speaker 3 (02:05:27):
Have to leave.

Speaker 1 (02:05:29):
Wait, someone Chrishelle said that too. Someone said that to
Chroshelle and had to leave. Yeah, she's just like not
good on television. This other woman whoa what.

Speaker 3 (02:05:39):
Was her name? Nicole?

Speaker 2 (02:05:41):
Oh yeah, and one of Nick Cannon's baby mama was
on it too, one of the many.

Speaker 1 (02:05:48):
Okay, all right, wow, I don't know. Yeah, my mom
said she watched it. No, no, that was the different one.
That was the one on a Bravo one. She was
watching a Bravo what's the one with the boat with
the men the Oppenheim.

Speaker 2 (02:06:03):
Yes, Oppenheimer is selling Sunset and it is on Netflix.

Speaker 3 (02:06:07):
But what about a million dollar, million dollar listing.

Speaker 1 (02:06:11):
I think my mom watched Out on a plane once
and she said it was so hilarious. She thought it
was a joke. The whole thing she doesn't understand anyway.
The post mortem on this show, this episode is women
are really organized and can do great things. Uh, and
that men are terrifying, Right, I guess that's the bottom line.

Speaker 2 (02:06:30):
Really scary episode. I hold on to it forever, just
like the trickery of it all and the acceptance of like, yeah,
he's a great guy.

Speaker 3 (02:06:40):
Yeah the bitch ran off.

Speaker 2 (02:06:41):
It's like what the whole town is just under his
like baby blue spell, baby blue Eyes spell.

Speaker 3 (02:06:48):
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:06:50):
And I always think of this episode when people are like,
why didn't you just leave? You should have just called
on and you should just leave, you know.

Speaker 3 (02:06:58):
It's like.

Speaker 2 (02:07:00):
Don't. Yeah, It's it's really crazy the way humanity, like
like why are you even blaming this person who didn't
leave when this person's beating them? Like I just don't
even get the like the conversation. But you know, I'm
pretty hardcore. Yeah, they have hardcore, And I mean the

(02:07:23):
cases I mean we're talking about hard to leave. I mean,
to take a two day old baby, to take a
two day old baby. Think that's what's good for the baby,
because this dude hit her Like fuck, I can't.

Speaker 3 (02:07:36):
I really don't understand the world.

Speaker 1 (02:07:38):
I know.

Speaker 3 (02:07:40):
I just don't know you could.

Speaker 2 (02:07:41):
Do that neglect or neglect they want to get out,
give the more care, help people leave, I believe.

Speaker 3 (02:07:49):
But I also love that with Fay.

Speaker 2 (02:07:51):
Everyone's like her personality was terrible and we did have
to uh do a separate group.

Speaker 3 (02:07:58):
She did help kids, but boy was she a pill?
Was she a bitch? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (02:08:05):
All right, yeah, why do women have to be likable?

Speaker 3 (02:08:09):
Go fuck yourself?

Speaker 1 (02:08:11):
I mean it was also like how bad was her
personality or was she just pushy? It's like the way
everybody's always like Rosie O'Donnell was a bitch on her show,
Katie Kirk was a bitch on her show.

Speaker 3 (02:08:20):
Meredith Vieira was a bitch on her show.

Speaker 1 (02:08:21):
It's like, or were they or were they just the
Boston You didn't like that Rosie.

Speaker 2 (02:08:25):
I wonder when she'll get the like kudos that she deserves.
Yeah for being right about everything decades ahead of time, truly, you.

Speaker 1 (02:08:34):
Know, just I feel sad that she left America that
she's in like Ireland now, well.

Speaker 3 (02:08:39):
The president bullies her, so I know she has to leave.

Speaker 1 (02:08:42):
I know it makes me sad because I'm like, you
should shouldn't have to relocate countries because of our bully
ass president.

Speaker 2 (02:08:50):
But did you read this teen Vogue? It's is it Vogue?
It's oh my god. Honestly teen Vogue fired everyone their
politics team. I mean the fact that Barry Wei's this
dumb bitch at CEBIA. Every black person's fired. They only
kept white people. It's like, I can't it's it's so sickening.

(02:09:11):
It's so sickening it's happening, and I wonder and people
still seem to be in denial.

Speaker 3 (02:09:16):
I don't think our listeners.

Speaker 2 (02:09:17):
But yeah, but the reason I was shocking it was
but it was you know what I mean, It's like
that's that's the whole.

Speaker 1 (02:09:26):
Point, Like, yeah, what's truly shocking anyone anymore?

Speaker 2 (02:09:30):
It's Oh, they don't want they don't want it, and
we all need to just be doing hobbies, you know,
because the internet technology is about you know, we'll not
we're not gonna have electricity soon.

Speaker 3 (02:09:42):
You guys got to get beads, you gotta get hobbies.

Speaker 1 (02:09:44):
You got to get my bunker ready, and I only
have like forty dollars cash on me at any given time.
I'm fucked, plus my glasses. I need to get Lasick
before the apocalypse.

Speaker 3 (02:09:52):
I know, but people people don't love lace, I mean Lasik.
I know. Wait, what's the documentary? Is it out?

Speaker 2 (02:09:58):
I want to watch the Lasik documentary. There's a Lasick documentary. Yeah,
there's They go if people the Bleeding Edge. Oh it's
from twenty eighteen. Oh broken eyes. Saw some of them
posts this thing where she says I got lasick. It
worked amazing. I have eye pain every single day, every day.
My eyes ache. Yeah, I was like, that sounds awful.
Dark underbelly of billion dollar industry. They basically say like

(02:10:19):
if people knew the percentage of people where it's not good,
it would net people would.

Speaker 3 (02:10:24):
Never do it. Oh fuck, okay, well for me, but
the end of the world, you can't really have glasses either.

Speaker 1 (02:10:30):
I know what am I gonna do? I have three pairs,
but my kids will break them if I get's like
the fake teeth like people getting veneers. I'm like, honey,
what if you don't have ten grand in a little
bit you're getting you're gonna.

Speaker 3 (02:10:41):
Have those sharp little pointy guys coming out. It's fucked,
it's fussy.

Speaker 2 (02:10:45):
They were cooked, as the youth said, I don't even
know where you say that.

Speaker 3 (02:10:48):
Rose.

Speaker 1 (02:10:49):
He keeps saying that, Oh that's really that you're cooked,
and I'm like, oh my god, Rosie.

Speaker 3 (02:10:55):
Sus cooked everything.

Speaker 2 (02:10:57):
That's so fucking cute. Listen, we all have to help
each other. And if you see someone that's going through
domestic violence, slip the guy's throat statut of jail.

Speaker 3 (02:11:11):
Oh, I hope your abuser dies. Yeah, And I don't know.

Speaker 2 (02:11:13):
What I'm doing with my life, but I've been watching
YouTube like the Most Dangerous Woman in Prison, and it's
like about women that kill, and thirty to forty percent
of women in prison killed like an abuser.

Speaker 3 (02:11:26):
Yeah, I don't think any of them should be in prison.

Speaker 2 (02:11:29):
No, But then they have to go like, oh there
was a blood spot, but basically like, yeah, women stabs
one three hundred times. But I've just been watching interviews
and of women in prison and they're just so sad.

Speaker 1 (02:11:42):
Oh it's not like the cell bloc tango. I'm telling
you no. And then he ran into my knife. He
ran into my knife twelve times. I don't even remember
how many times it is.

Speaker 3 (02:11:51):
But yeah, but one woman, I don't I think it
was DV. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (02:11:55):
I don't think she should have gotten what she got.
But the way she got caught was they have like
a secret camera where they put her with her grandma
and she was like talking to her grandma, and her
grandma kept going stop talking. And then it's like Miranda rights,
but only if you're under arrest, so like, if you're
not under arrest, they don't have to read you your
Miranda rights and they can film you, so like you can't.
You shouldn't if you're arrested, you shouldn't say anything anywhere

(02:12:17):
in the precinct to anyone. Yeah, hopefully don't commit a crime,
don't murder, do that. And a lot of them are
mothers and like, and then they have like there's like
a mother's wing on one of the prisons, and when
they go to visiting day they have to have a
guard with them to protect the kids because you're allowed

(02:12:37):
to have kids.

Speaker 3 (02:12:37):
I don't know, it's just.

Speaker 1 (02:12:40):
It.

Speaker 2 (02:12:41):
I don't know why I've been watching it, but I've
been watching just Women in Prison on YouTube. Yeah, yeah,
that's it's scary sounds secary and sad. Yeah, I don't
know why I'm doing it. I should stick a selling
Sunset and Salt Lake City Housewives.

Speaker 1 (02:12:57):
Okay, I think that's a perfect segue though into our
what would Say Peg do this week?

Speaker 3 (02:13:01):
Or what would Sister Peg Do?

Speaker 1 (02:13:03):
Is our weekly segment where we direct you towards an organization,
a book, a movie, something to give you more information
on what we talked about today and this week, we
wanted to point you to Underground Railroad, Inc. Which is
a provider of emergency shelter and services for victims and
survivors of intimate partner violence that operates out of Saginaw, Michigan.

(02:13:24):
They provide services for survivors of domestic violence, stocking, sexual assault,
and human slavery. They also have a twenty four hour
helpline for victims of domestic abuse and if you happen
to live in Michigan, they provide emergency shelter, but there's
a lot of resources at their organization for anyone across
the country. So for more info or to donate, head

(02:13:45):
on over to Underground Railroadinc. Dot org and that will
be linked in our show notes as usual and then
posted forever on Shared on our Instagram page That's Messed
Up Pod as a story and saved forever inner WWSPD highlights.

Speaker 3 (02:14:02):
And thank you for that.

Speaker 2 (02:14:04):
And next week we'll be doing Blast season seven, episode thirteen. Oh,
it's such a good episode. We really I like this podcast. Yeah,
thanks for listening, guys. We like this podcast. We like
you guys.

Speaker 3 (02:14:18):
Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next week.

Speaker 2 (02:14:29):
That's Messed Up as an exactly right production.

Speaker 1 (02:14:32):
If you have compliments you'd like to give us, or
episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email
it That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com. Listen to
That's Messed Up on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 2 (02:14:44):
Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod,
and follow us personally at Kara Klank and.

Speaker 3 (02:14:50):
At glitter Cheese.

Speaker 1 (02:14:52):
As always, please see our show notes for sources and
more information.

Speaker 2 (02:14:55):
Thank you so much to our senior producer Casey O'Brien
and our associate producer Christina Chamberlain.

Speaker 1 (02:15:01):
And to our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker
Patrick Cottner, and to Henry Kaperski for our theme song
and Carly Geen Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to
our executive producers Georgia Hardstart, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer, and
everybody at Exactly Right Media.

Speaker 3 (02:15:17):
Dun dun,

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Kara Klenk

Liza Treyger

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