Liberties w/ Jon Patrick Walker

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Of the law and order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.
We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
vicious felonies. These episodes are based on. These are our stories.
Done done, Yay, that's messed up. An SVU podcast Coming

(00:31):
at you live JK. I am Liza Traeger and.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
I'm Kara Klank and pre recorded to you, pre recorded,
but I'm coming to you from New York. We're actually
in the same place right now, not in the same room,
but same city.

Speaker 1 (00:46):
No, people truly ask me all the time. They're like, oh,
how did you record post the move? I'm like, did
you not live through the same pandemic as us? Like,
I know, I don't even know how this is even
a shocking question to you. How we do it in
separate places?

Speaker 2 (00:58):
And we also used to post like more little video
clips where it's like we're clearly in different rooms, you know,
like the clips that we used to do.

Speaker 1 (01:05):
Yeah, I know, for you know reason, not that ever,
It's just like it seems like a silly question.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
So many people are like, wait, Lisa moved, how do
you do the pod?

Speaker 1 (01:13):
I'm like, the same way we've always done it.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
When we lived three blocks away over Zoom zooming baby, tell.

Speaker 1 (01:21):
Us, Okay, you know in New York, the concrete jungle. Yeah,
I'm in the concrete Johnny. It's hot as fucking hell.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
I mean, listen, I've been back here a million times
since I left. I loved living here everything. I haven't
really been back here with my two kids, like living
day to day.

Speaker 1 (01:39):
I've come back.

Speaker 2 (01:40):
You know, I did a little spring break with Rosy
Ones for like four days, both kids all day every day.
In this city, it's a little, it's a little. I
have like a lot of respect for the NYC parents.
Like I always knew it was gonna be harder than
like La for sure. But like, I just took Oscar
to a grocery store yesterday, smallest grocery store.

Speaker 1 (01:59):
Everybody's going, excuse me, excuse me.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
I'm like, because I've got him in a stroller, just
because he was too lazy to walk the whole distance
to the thing. And everyone's like, other people are in
there with strollers. But everyone's like, excuse me, pardon me,
And I'm like, oh my god, I just kept getting
so stressed. I couldn't look at any of the groceries
because I was blocking someone everywhere I went. Yea, and
then just like and just like, it's hot and they're
not as used to walk, but they've gone on the

(02:21):
subway already. They're loving it. We went to a public
pool today in the one that Allison goes to in Brooklyn,
and why maybe the new Central Park one. I want
to when we're in Manhattan, I'll go, what is that?

Speaker 1 (02:34):
There's like a new one. Yeah, there's a new pool.
It just opened on like June twenty seventh, like a
giants supposed to be the biggest pool in New York.
But it's in Central Park. It's a giant circle. I've
only seen photos. I've only sit in photos. But I
did fit angle my way to a pool on Sunday, exciting.
Yes I did. Yeah, I used a person. I did,
but I like them a lot, so it's fine. But

(02:57):
I did, I did get, I did dunk, and I'm
going back. I'm going in two days. You know, I'm
always chasing a body of water. Yeah, yeah, I just like,
how did you feel with the rules they watch you shower?
You really got a lock up and nothing's a lot.
Actually I did the lock up.

Speaker 2 (03:10):
They lent me a lock because I was on my
way there and I didn't have a lock and I
couldn't find a place, and so they lent me a lock,
which was really nice.

Speaker 1 (03:16):
And then the water was really cool. Did you remember
a new code? What do you mean? I wouldn't remember.
I wouldn't be able to remember a new lock. No,
they lent me a lock with a key. Amazing.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
Yeah, they let me a little lock with a key.
It was really nice cause they were like, you can't
come in without a lock. I thought it was like optional,
like you could get robbed and you just like kind
of take that on yourself.

Speaker 1 (03:35):
It's not optional. You have to lock.

Speaker 2 (03:38):
So I was like, all right, uh, what do I do?
Is there a place near here? And they were like
hold on, and they were nice and they give me one.
And who says New Yorkers are not nice?

Speaker 1 (03:44):
They are. And then we got in the pool.

Speaker 2 (03:47):
I met a fucking kid that goes to school with
the kid that I'm staying with whose apartment I'm staying in.
They knew each other like they know each other. It
was like crazy, so such a small world. And then
this guy works in restaurants. I was like, tell me
where to eat around here? It was great, but the
water was so cool and I loved it. It's fucking
hot as hell here, and my kids were being babies
about how cold it was. Oscar got into it after

(04:08):
a few minutes, but Rosie was really she's really a
baby about like heated pools now that.

Speaker 1 (04:12):
Yeah, how do they feel being in the city, Like
what is Yeah? What are their thoughts? Because I think
a lot of stereotypes do come true in the summer,
and it does smell like piss more than it doesn't.

Speaker 2 (04:23):
Yeah, like Oscar a couple of times has been like,
what's that smell?

Speaker 1 (04:26):
And I'm like, listen, New York's full of tons of smells.
Keep walking, like you'll be it'll be a different it'll
be a delicious smell in about one block, you know.

Speaker 2 (04:33):
Like, So they've been liking it though, like it's just uh,
the walking. They love it at first, and then eventually
they're like, h you know, but they're but they've they're
they're doing great. I mean, they love this apartment that
we're in because my friend has two kids their exact ages,
so they're just playing with all new toys they've never
seen before. So they're like pumped. But yeah, but it's

(04:54):
been it's been good so far. I mean, getting here
almost broke my body and spirit, but everything else was
everything else in terms of packing, in terms of like
I've never had to, I'm like, I rented my house
out to somebody and getting my house like in order,
like moving all of our crap out of the way
and like putting it in the garage and like having
it look really really good, and then getting the kids

(05:16):
to a hotel and then to.

Speaker 1 (05:18):
The airport and then on the plane.

Speaker 2 (05:20):
And Rosie was feeling queasy on the plane and would
stop whining. And then my mom picked us up and
is like crazy driving in Brooklyn, Like it was just
like a lot. I was like, I'm gonna die. And
then I tried to go to sleep the first night.
I was going to get some sleep for the first
time in like forty eight hours, and Oscar woke up
at eleven pm and was like it's morning, and I.

Speaker 1 (05:37):
Was like, I'm gonna kill somebody. So like it was
just like a lot.

Speaker 2 (05:42):
But it's been a couple of days since we've been
here and I'm feeling good.

Speaker 1 (05:45):
It's all good. Wait, what did you say it at
a hotel by the airport.

Speaker 2 (05:49):
Yes, because I had my house deep cleaned on Friday,
and of course I'm not gonna let my kids set
foot back in that fucking house after they get out
of their dirty hiking camp. So I booked us a
hotel by Lax and was like, let's just state, we'll
just go from We went to a friend's house after
camp for like a little wine and pizza, wine for me, not.

Speaker 1 (06:08):
For the kids.

Speaker 2 (06:09):
And then and then we went to this Lax like
highatt and then went straight to the air but from there,
which was like great too, because you know it's a
five minute drive to the Delta terminal.

Speaker 1 (06:19):
So yeah, damn yeah it was. It was a lot.
It was a lot of moving pieces.

Speaker 2 (06:24):
And I have so many bags, like I have three
massive suitcases and a little carry on with all these
kids plus their little backpacks. My backpack, everything weighs twenty
five thousand pounds. Like it's it's like I thought I
was gonna like I was, like, my body.

Speaker 1 (06:36):
Can't handle anymore, like I'm dead. But I made it.
I made it. You made it. I mean I love
it here. And like the Empire State Building was gay
for Pride, and it just looks so cute with the rainbow,
like I love the rainbow nice. And then when I
was go with my friend's pool who I used in
Brooklyn Heights, it's like you're passing the bridge, you just

(06:59):
see the boats and the jet skis and the views
and then my glass little you know they have a
second glass water tower. I don't know, it's just like
too much to handle. I know my friend's here. I
don't even when it's hot. I'm like, I'm in a
Spike Lee movie. What are you gonna do? Like yeah,
no matter, or like I'll get down to the train
and then someone's just playing a tuba. I go, great,
you know.

Speaker 2 (07:19):
Yeah, I love the city in the summer.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
I know a lot of people don't. I love it.

Speaker 2 (07:23):
Like I and my friend that I'm staying with here
has a sick view of Manhattan from Brooklyn, Like it's
really like overwhelming how awesome it is.

Speaker 1 (07:31):
And I'm like showing my kids and.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
Like Jared has this joke that he does where he's
like you're lucky for there. He goes, You're welcome for
the amazing life we're giving you, and like this is
like I was just showing them the New York City
skyline and was like, do not complain for one second.

Speaker 1 (07:45):
Look how great this is? You know, Like so it's
been it's been cool though, but now and then I'm out.
So I'm doing the reverse. But I'm just one person.
But packing to do kill my spirits. Like once I
go for three weeks, it's like it's just not a
simple game. When I do a pop off weekend, even
two weekends in a row, that's that's nothing. But when

(08:06):
we're talking, I'm going to winter, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (08:09):
Oh that's right. You guys tell your trey is an
Australian winter. How wintry is it?

Speaker 1 (08:15):
I mean, people are dramatic it'll be like thirty the
coldest in Melbourne and Auckland, but like forty to thirty
is the coldest it will get. So I don't think
I'm bringing. Someone that I know from Australia said better
to layer, So I don't think I'm gonna bring my big,
big winter. But like I don't know if that leather
I can layer this. Yeah, it's just that's what I Yeah,
that's what I'm going through at the moment. A lot,

(08:37):
it's a lot of shit. Yeah, you want to show
outfit you want chill outfits, you want a lounging outfit,
and then I will be back in. It's just like, yeah, packings.
And then I went the rich person's house I went
to had a lot of plants, and I go, are
you watering these plants? And he goes, I have an assistant,
and I go, that's how you get things you need

(08:57):
and this is yeah, it's like the chase to try
to get an assistant. Yeah, yeah I didn't. If I
didn't have to water the plants, I would have a
jumbatio full of gorgeous plants. Here, I go, who's doing this?
My friend's like, that's all my husband. It's like his thing.
He likes the plants.

Speaker 2 (09:14):
I'm like, I I can't keep plants, but I'm watering
their plants a little bit.

Speaker 1 (09:17):
Because sometimes you can't just water them where they are.
They have like a hole in the bottom with the soil.
You got to put him and it's like, what are you?
What are we doing here? Suddenly I'm a botanist. No,
I can't do all that. No. Well, speaking of New York,
I saw Margaret Joseph's Who's a Jersey Housewife? But okay, wait,
I saw this wait, I was set. So I was like,

(09:42):
so we're at a hotel lobby and then me and
my friend Shocks, we go downstairs to use the bathroom,
and you know what I'm gonna this. Okay, So it's
one of the it's a hip bathroom. It's the one hotel,
so it's like, you know, gender neutral and like a
bunch of stalls, and then the you share. You know,
there's no urinouls or anything like that, but all these

(10:04):
are Orthodox Jews, and I'm like, you can't even pray
next to a woman, and you're here pissing next to me.
Get the fuck out of here. You won't shake a
woman's hand, but we're all pissing in here together. It
bothered me, and they all they were all like trying
to cut in line. When person's like are you in line,
It's like no, we're in a row, just chilling in
the toilet. Get behind us. But I just whatever. So

(10:25):
we go to the bathroom and then what happened I
think with Margaret and her friend Lexi is they went
into an elevator that was coming down, thinking they were
going up, so they didn't want to come down there.
And I walked into the elevator, and I lost all
tether to like reality and how to behave I really did.
I went Margaret Joseph's like, I lost it fully And

(10:46):
then but you were.

Speaker 2 (10:47):
In the same elevator with her, Yes, okay, I saw
our Wait do you want to not talk about how
your friend got married or do you want to talk
about I don't care.

Speaker 1 (10:55):
But they were in the love That's what I said.
People were in the lobby. I went to the bathroom
and then so just me and my friend, the elevator
doors open and Margaret's in there. No one else experienced that.

Speaker 2 (11:06):
Yeah, I did not know anybody saw her in full
view because I saw somebody post a photo of her
from a far and was like, oh, neat, that's a
good omen. You're getting a Margaret on your wedding day.
That's exciting. But then you were in an enclosed space.
So what happened? How did she react?

Speaker 1 (11:21):
She was like, oh, yeah, you look incredible. But then
I didn't realize that they had seen her through the lobby,
you know, like this was my own experience, and so
I try to get her out of the I go,
my friend just got married, you gotta come out. I
go you gotta say hi to my friend. And she
was clearly like, well, congrats to your friend, like of
course she's not gonna come out of the YELP things.

(11:42):
I got it, what am I thinking? But I lost,
like I also should have been like anything, but I said,
she looked great, and then and then I just kept going,
I can't believe you're here. What are you doing here?
Are you going to the wedding? Because there was like
another there was like eight weddings in that hotel, and
so so she goes, oh, there's a GLAD event on
the second floor, so that they got the photos through

(12:03):
the window at the step and repeat of this Glad event.
And then Harvey Gillian, who I worked with this last summer,
he had a post with that I've had it podcast
Women at a GLAD event and I DMed him and
it was the same one and he saw Margaret there
as well. But she looked fantastic. It was it was exciting.

Speaker 2 (12:22):
It was through ye, Margaret's had some good work done.
I feel like she looks great. Yeah, but I wish
I composed.

Speaker 1 (12:27):
I truly screamed, like chose like I couldn't.

Speaker 2 (12:32):
But was this like the end of the night. Was
this towards the end of the night or no, Like
where was this, Like there was a few drinks in
and like having.

Speaker 1 (12:39):
A great time at my friend's wedding. I would definitely
know there wasn't a wedding. My friends got married for
health insurance, and then we went to the courthouse, but
they got a hotel room. So we after dinner stopped
at the hotel room. We were gonna have drinks on
the roof, but it was closed for a wedding. Like
there were just like a lot of events happening at
the There was just like a lot. Oh. I did

(13:00):
go to one bride party that was exciting. I danced,
but it was so and then we just went to
a bar, right, yeah that's great. Yeah we didn't know.
The pictures all looked really fun. But it is the
omen of me and my friend. Like anytime her and
her dude, or we like book a hotel pool or
any it's raining, it's cloudy, it's closed, Like there's always

(13:22):
something running amuck.

Speaker 2 (13:24):
But I was gonna say, every time you and that
friend book a hotel, you see bravo people, because.

Speaker 1 (13:28):
You do sometimes.

Speaker 2 (13:29):
I mean, there was like the time from the other
hotel I saw.

Speaker 1 (13:34):
But we were also with someone where we're like, it's
a good because someone else got married and there was
a house. Oh Bennett who was with us, Julia's friend
when he got married Ebony was on the same rooftop
as them, oh New York. So it was like, it
is an omen, it's a good one.

Speaker 2 (13:52):
Someone sent me a screenshot of something that I don't
know if it's real or not that says we might
get to see Morocco.

Speaker 1 (13:59):
That Morocco, oh might come out. Did you see this?
I didn't, and I don't want you to get my hopeset.
I really don't.

Speaker 2 (14:05):
Somebody said to me and was like, we might get
and I was like, I was thinking the same thing,
kind of.

Speaker 1 (14:09):
I was like, I don't know. I'll believe it when
I see it, you know. Yeah, did you see Andy
Cohen moved, uh moved building after twenty two years. Yeah.
I saw his beautiful homage to his like like staff
at his building. It was so nice. Oh my god.
So I went to dinner at a friend's house. They
have one seven year old daughter, and she's like an
Upper West Side girl, Like, what are you gonna say?
You know what I mean? She walks to school and

(14:30):
she's very hip, and so I'm talking and she goes,
you don't have a doorman. I go, no, she goes,
so people could just walk into your apartment. I was like, no,
there's two buzzers. But she's just it's so funny, Like
I've told you my sister and all her friends, I'll
have dorman.

Speaker 2 (14:47):
My sister when she taught fifth grade on the Upper
East Side, Like they were like, you don't have a
country house, Miss Caitlin. Like they couldn't believe she didn't
have a country house. You're like, what do you like
do on the weekend? Like they you know, it's like
they don't. Oh, I don't know, but I had such
a nice city.

Speaker 1 (15:02):
I forget. It's it is easy to cook. They like
put some salmon in the air fryer, and I have
like a delicious moist piece of fit. I mean, I
don't know. I want an air fryer. I think you
would love an air fryer.

Speaker 2 (15:13):
I need an air frier company to sponsor our pod
and give me one.

Speaker 1 (15:16):
Come on, like one hundred and thirty.

Speaker 2 (15:19):
There's a specific one I want. There's a specific one
I want. Yeah, there's one I've looked because I like
that it's like a toaster, oven and an air fry.
It does like a bunch of different things, and that's
the one I want. It's like a Breville one. I
don't know, it's it's it's a hoop dream for them
to sponsor the pod.

Speaker 1 (15:34):
But well, I was about to say, what else are
you going to do in New York? When am I
going to see you? But we also huge announcement you're
in New York or the Tri state area down to
do a trip in August to New York. Who wouldn't
want to do that? Who wouldn't want to be in
New York in August? Every therapist and person with a
country house, that's they leave. They and the art world

(15:56):
they shut down too.

Speaker 2 (15:57):
But if you are in New York City on August fourteenth,
that's a Thursday, We're gonna be doing a That's Messed
Up live at the Bellhouse in Brooklyn, baby so and
it's a lot of smaller venue than we've performed at
before in one show.

Speaker 1 (16:11):
So I get I would get your tickets.

Speaker 2 (16:13):
Get tickets, get tickets, And I mean the nice thing
about the Bellhouse is it's like it's a little different
than some of the other venues we've done. There's no
drink minimums or anything like that, so you could just
come watch us sang out hard to drink.

Speaker 1 (16:23):
You know, it's more cash. They do want you, they
want you. They'll yeah fond. You don't bring your knives
or guns. Don't bring a knife for a gun to
the SVU podcast.

Speaker 2 (16:31):
If it's like your cause playing as us, which people
have done before, you know, you can bring fake cuffs
or whatever.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
I'm sure that'll be okay with the wand people.

Speaker 2 (16:38):
But yeah, go to That's messed Up live dot com.
We'll have the link up there to buy tickets, and yeah,
come see us.

Speaker 1 (16:45):
We're gonna do We'll do an episode we've never done in.

Speaker 2 (16:47):
New York, so obviously you're gonna get something new and
fun and yeah, I'm excited. We haven't done a live
show since Febbs, so come and come hang down.

Speaker 1 (16:57):
It's so many the Melinda Warner Rollins who dress up
in North Carolina for our Halloween shows. They came to
my stand up show, but the shows before the one
they came to, they go remember the girls who dressed up,
they were like the talk of the town. Truly really,
it really does stay with us forever. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:14):
Well last when we did like a tiny tour last
year too, we got a lot of Halloween. Were so
close to Halloweens, we were getting a lot of Halloween
and those people.

Speaker 1 (17:22):
Really turned it out. That was really fun. Well, yeah,
this is what I was talking about. Yeah, yeah, like Denver, Pa,
you don't have to do it in August, but we.

Speaker 2 (17:30):
Yeah, yeah, please please, you do not have to wear
a leather and dresses rollins on in the mid August
to New York City too much. And then if you're going,
if you are in Australia, go to when You're at
That's Messed Up Live. You could also go there. Scroll
down to Liza's website that has all the tickets to
her Australia and.

Speaker 1 (17:49):
New Zealand shows. I do feel like we're letting everyone down.
I have not watched My mom is Jane. I know.
I'm sorry. I want Jania. I'm going to. But I've
been getting text and from people and they're loving it.
Someone's like, I didn't really think about Marishka. Now I'm
obsessed with her like that. It's so well done and emotional,
so it gets.

Speaker 2 (18:08):
Wild to me because I oh, I wanted to mention
this to you, like, you know, the other podcast I
listened to is called who Weekly, right, yeah, and so
who Weekly basically I love it. They divide celebrities into
who's in thems and then there's actually nas, which are
like that's like kind of insulting. It's like no one
even know you're not even on the register if you're
like a nah, But like who's are Like they might

(18:30):
be famous on TikTok or they might be famous like
in a one movie or something like that, but they're
not necessarily them is like Tom Hanks, Julia Roberts, like
Scarlett Johansson. So they were talking about whether Mariushka Hargita
is a who or them on a recent episode.

Speaker 1 (18:45):
That's the dumbest thing ever. And I was like, definitely
of them.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
And they were like they were arguing that Olivia Benson
is a bigger them than Marishka Rteah.

Speaker 1 (18:54):
Sure, but there is no Olivia without Marishka. True. But
they see the people at her premiere, I mean, share
was there, Like, I know, the the A list people
that were at the car that at the premiere was
was insane, went really deep yes.

Speaker 2 (19:10):
I think though that if you don't listen to like
our podcasts or you don't like super follow like, you
might not know that she is like truly one of
the most connected people I think in the business.

Speaker 1 (19:21):
I think she knows everybody, and I think even at
the Knicks games like the other like Ben Skiller and
all those people are like like like, she gets hugs
from players that won't even hug their family, Like, yeah,
people are obsessed with her and everyone watches us to
be It's just a show that's been on the air
for twenty six years. It would be psychotic to say

(19:42):
it's not them. Yeah, Jamie Lee Curtis was at this premiere.

Speaker 2 (19:48):
No, I obviously she's my biggest them in my life.

Speaker 1 (19:51):
Like obviously I think she's them. You know their vanes
or shields. Well, we have friends fully star studded b
but Liam Neeson's there. What they would even.

Speaker 2 (20:03):
Think of other examples of people where their character is
like as famous as they are or more famous. Oh,
that's a lot of thinking, Like yeah, I was like
John Snow is probably one of them.

Speaker 1 (20:17):
You know what. A lot of clips from Game of
Thrones are showing up in my YouTube shorts and this
might be a little slow to the game, but looks good.
I think I might want to watch somebody might be
getting in. The only thing about Game of Thrones.

Speaker 2 (20:31):
Is like you have to actively watch so hardcore because
there's so many fucking plot lines going on. That's why
I kind of like House of the Dragon, how so
the Dragons the new one, and it's really just like
one or two plot lines going on at all times.
It's like a light Game of Thrones because Game of
Thrones have a fucking story raging.

Speaker 1 (20:49):
Yeah, you've got it. I'm like sitting with my Olivia
Lighter being like, how dare you call her a? Who? Yeah?
I mean everyone from the Office I think, like even
Steve Corral I don't think his oh'm I mean he's
really famous and beloved, but I bet people call him
Michael Scott all the time. Yeah, yeah, that's true, Michael Scott. Yeah,
am I wrong? Yeah? But like Rain Wilson, it like
drives him crazy and it's I don't know, every time

(21:11):
I see him in an interview, I'm like, you're so unlikable,
Like I can't believe it.

Speaker 2 (21:15):
Yeah, I mean, look at Kevin from the Office, who
was on an SVU that we covered recently, and I
was like, I can't believe that that's this guy's real name.
I did not know it, like I've always he's always
Kevin from the office to me.

Speaker 1 (21:25):
I don't know. I watch yeah, but like the Rain, he
was on last Meals and he was trying to be condescending, like, whoa,
how do you know about Persian food? And he goes
my co host is, I'm like a professor. I don't know.
It was just it was uncomfortable to watch Rain Wilson. Yeah,
he's uncomfortable. Oh he's yeah, I didn't let Yeah he's
in an SVU. Yeah he is. He's like a janitor.

(21:47):
I forget about that one. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:49):
Yeah, I'm like for having a hard time remembering. Anyway,
we are gonna watch My mom My Mom Jane.

Speaker 1 (21:56):
Yeah, I'm going to watch well. I also, I have
a quick thing. I just want to say. I tried
to horse readdish cream cheese, not good, would not recommend.
Just want to look out for my friends that'll listen,
that might be lured, don't do it, okay, And then
I have terrible news for you. I did start watching
season two of Queer Ultimatum so oh my.

Speaker 2 (22:20):
God, it's gonna be all I hear about all right,
all right, so bad.

Speaker 1 (22:24):
It's like they take out everything, like everything fun from
reality and they just they all want to be challenged.
I'm like, why do you all want to be challenged
so badly? It's like, yeah, I think she's gonna challenge me.
It's like, okay, I don't. I don't understand why you
get Also.

Speaker 2 (22:38):
Life could be easy, yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:40):
But also like the flip to then just pretend to
be married with a stranger for three weeks to then
flop back, but you have to sleep in the same bed,
but then everyone's getting mad if they cuddle with anyone else.
It's it's so psychotic. If anyone's watching DM ME, I
just yeah, I would Also why is the host straight?

(23:00):
Why is the host a straight woman? It makes no sense.
It makes no sense. And she's like, just because I'm
straight doesn't mean I don't understand about life. It's like, yeah,
but you don't understand queer. Get out of here.

Speaker 2 (23:13):
They couldn't get Krishelle or somebody, like, come on, that's crazy.

Speaker 1 (23:17):
I think it's fair. But I would say better than
all the other dating shows, Like everyone looks different and
it's from different plates, like they all like it's really
that's the only uh that's like a cool thing.

Speaker 2 (23:28):
Yeah, because Love Island is a little bit more homogeneous.
I feel like everybody's talking to me about Love Island.
I mean, I'm never gonna watch Love Island, but people
are talking to me about it.

Speaker 1 (23:35):
Yeah. It's wild what you do fight off because you're
usually ravenous about keeping up with the culture.

Speaker 2 (23:41):
Yeah, but I can't. I can't, Like I don't really
do fuck life. I don't, like I've talked about this before, right, Like,
I don't really do fuck life.

Speaker 1 (23:47):
I just do Housewives. But and vander Pump.

Speaker 2 (23:51):
Was as close to fuck life as I got. And
I'm not even really still in it anymore. But I
do want to watch Next Gen. I do want to
watch Next Gen. I'm watching that. But wait, one other
thing I was gonnay is people are asking us to
react to the Call Her Daddy interview.

Speaker 1 (24:03):
Obviously I haven't listened to it. I don't want to
Spotify are serious now, Like, I don't watch it. The
one clip I saw it's a little cringey. It's hard
for me. I mean, we obviously love Marshika it's hard
for me to watch her try to be funny and personable. Mm.
It's like cringey to me. It makes me uncomfortable. Yeah yeah,
I mean it's so mad. Yeah, I'm like so cool

(24:24):
and fun and I'm hysterical, and I'm like, I don't
think I could I do. I can't.

Speaker 2 (24:28):
This is a woman that uses like hashtags as full sentences,
you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (24:32):
Like, this is a woman that.

Speaker 2 (24:35):
Like uses a hashtag like let me introduce you to
my best friend Brooke. Like you know that's'll be like
the hashtag. You're like, that's not how they work. But
I love her, But I did like one clip I
saw where she said like in her twenties she wasn't
really getting a lot of work. And I was like,
that's wild, because like you're a nepo and gorgeous and
like she is like an example of somebody. She did

(24:56):
not get this show until she was in her thirties,
you know.

Speaker 1 (24:59):
Yeah, and she thought she was gonna do comedy, you know. Yeah,
So that's the clip I saw. There was just like psychic. Yeah,
there's just this thing of like it just was hard
to watch. I would say, yeah, just the one little thing.
But I'm gonna after I watch the movie, I'm gonna
listen to the mark Maren.

Speaker 2 (25:14):
Oh yeah, I'm I'm more interested to see how she
was different on Maren versus on uh, on Alex Cooper
or whatever. But all right, we've got a lot of
Marishka catching up to do. We'll get on it as
soon as possible. It's a busy summer. I've been traveling.

Speaker 1 (25:30):
Jesus about travel what So the Sharman Bear the commercials,
the new Sharman Bear has a Tiffany's Heart necklace on it.
She's like a red bear and she has like a
Tiffany's necklace. I took photo, but I'll get in trouble
if my phone is next door recorder. So but the
Sharman Bear is wearing a Tiffany's necklace. So I send

(25:51):
it to a friend who's a fellow Tiffany's Heart girl,
and then I just send it to her being like lol,
go on Instagram. She just posted maybe ten minutes earlier
that her father had died, and I went, wow, I'm
the timing, so sorry, back, Like, I'm sorry, I just
went on Instagram. I apologize for the timing. She goes

(26:13):
well it did make me laugh. I cook, Well, that's good,
but like the timing could not have been sillier.

Speaker 2 (26:19):
Yeah, and that's like I yeah, I mean not the
same level of severity. But I did keep texting my
old babysitter asking when her boyfriend could do a bird
show for my kids, and it was always right after
they had just broken up.

Speaker 1 (26:32):
I did it twice. Yeah, I did it two times,
and then I was like sorry, like I just it's
so awkward. But now we can legit start, we can legit.

Speaker 2 (26:40):
I like when you're like, wait, I have to say
one more thing. The Sharman bear wears a Tiffany's Like,
it was like this must be I thought you were
just going to talk about the Tiffany secause I was like, yeah,
this was we had to keep this in important information.
Uh but yeah, we're going to start the episode. We've
got a good one for you. But go to That's
messed Up dot com for LESA tickets for tickets to

(27:02):
our show in New York on August fourteenth, and uh yeah,
let's kick it.

Speaker 1 (27:07):
With this awesome episode. Here we go, all right today
for our two hundred and fortieth episode. If you scramble those.
It's four twenty so pretty thrilling, huge milestone. Yeah, we're
doing Liberties season ten, episode twenty one. Let's get into it.

(27:29):
Another one I sort of forgot about. I remember it.
It's just so convoluted and insane. It's an insane episode.

Speaker 2 (27:36):
And in insane episode, I'm glad you said it before
I had to.

Speaker 1 (27:39):
It's like, all, like, what is it when you go
to a play? What do you suspend your disbelief or whatnot?
You really gotta separate my.

Speaker 2 (27:48):
Break belief is hanging from a piece of floss on
the ceiling by a thread, Like it is like crazy, yeah.

Speaker 1 (27:57):
Thread floss situation, but you know it is it starts
grounded and then whatever, We're gonna get into it. And
if you are someone that you know knows this episode
and isn't one of our non watching freaks, is that
a good merch? I'm an I'm not matching freaks. Yeah,

(28:17):
I'm a that's messed up non watching freak listener. Is
that a cool shirt? Is that a shirt people to wear?
Chopped tank? Would you guys do that? How did I pack? I?
You know, I have my new tank top that says
I hope your abuser dies. Maybe I'll wear it tonight.
I love that. Yeah, that's good. But then someone was like,
I wonder who in They're like, I wonder what little

(28:39):
kid in a sweatshop made that? And I'm like, touche
cause it is definitely a fast passion. It's not like
I'm buying it from like a charity that goes to abuse,
you know, abuse victims. It's a seventy five dollars T shirt. Yeah, no,
it's Cherrycale. Baby, it's twelve ninety nine. I don't think
it's gonna survive a wash. But anyways, two thousand and nine.
I so this came out May two thousand and nine,

(29:01):
which means I was two months into stand up comedy
around this time. Wow, well baby Lisa at open mics.
I know, I was twenty one. That's kind of insane,
so young. I didn't start till I was twenty seven. Yeah,
I was like, oh, is everyone in a dark bar?
I like this. I guess this will be my new hobby.
This is my new thing. Yeah, really paid off by gamble.

(29:27):
I know, it's really crazy to think about though the time.
But anyways, now we're in the present time. I'm in
alphabeta at Atlanta, Georgia Alpharetta Alfaretta. It's crazy, but we're starting.
It sucks crimes. We're back, We're back. So uh oh.

(29:47):
It's a woman breathing hard, she's getting dressed fast, she's crying.
It's really shaking. Wild camera work, and she uses a
cordless phone to call nine one one. She says a
man broke into her apartment and raped her and they asked,
you know, in an ambulance and she says no, but
he does love that. That is a badass moment. And
then the camera slowly pans to a bloody, unconscious man

(30:10):
and Benson of course on the scene and she's snapping
a latex glove on. Immediately there was a leaky skylight
and she kept telling her landlord, it's not safe, it's
not safe, and he did nothing about it. And so
like a guy did climb in through there. But it's like,
are you spider man, what are you talking about? You're
climbing from roof to roof looking for a shaky little window.
It does seem like a wild way to get into

(30:31):
a home.

Speaker 2 (30:32):
And then like lowering your body into it and dropping
to the ground.

Speaker 1 (30:36):
Yeah, it's very, very spidy. Yeah, so she says the
self defense class at the Y was finally put to
good use. So that's, you know, a shout out for
the why. And the guy is alive and he's laying
in a hospital bed and a classically suited Stabler is
standing over him. He awakes, he's groaning. He goes, oh,
it feels like somebody put my balls in a wood chipper.

(30:59):
And he asked, what how, and it's like, oh, well,
that woman you attacked wasn't as defenseless as you thought
she would be. And it cuts back to Benson and
the woman's like, yeah, I was terrified. I woke up.
He was on top of me and I started screaming,
and then we cut back to him and he's cuffed
up and he doesn't get what's happening, and Stabler goes,
you'll figure it out in five to ten. And Stablor's

(31:19):
being extra cocky. He's having fun. It's kind of like
an orca with a seal, you know, just bouncing it
around until he takes a chomp. Stabler says, what you
don't remember raping Pam Galliano And he says, I remember that, Okay,
that's a can feel like what's going on. So then
it goes back to the woman and you know, Pam
continues he slapped her and then put his hand over

(31:42):
her mouth and he said, don't be loud. You don't
want someone to call the police. And then she remembers,
you know, from her class ies, throat testicles are always close,
and that's something to remember ies throat testicles. Eyed. Is
that a shirt? I throat testicles? That is a shirt
head shirt? Yeah? Eyes, Yeah, we have a merch in
a while. We're really we're really reaching here throws. And

(32:10):
now we're back with the dudes and Stabler. You know,
this guy who's chained up is like, I want her
arrested for assaulting meat, and that pisses Stabler off and
he leers and goes, are you kidding me? You fucking rapist?
And he goes, she wanted me to and then it
does the classic where it keeps going back and forth.
So then she's with Benson going I hit him with

(32:30):
the lamp and he goes, oh, yeah, baby, fight me,
but like, fight me, bitch, that's so hot, and then
he like brought her to the ground and she saw
a dumbbell under her bed, and so she pulled that
and hit him in his head. And Stabler is with
the dude and is like, bro, you broke in and
forced her, and he screams, no, I met her on
a fantasy rape site. She sent me detailed instructions on

(32:53):
what to do, and he screams, she wanted me to
rape her. Credits, but that makes ends with the skylight,
like you probably knew it was shaky from whatever you
know plan they did. Yeah, because I understand, like, oh,
I'm gonna see what doors are locked or buzz into
whatever building, but like to climb onto the ceiling. It's
like so crazy, But we're in credits obviously this guy

(33:17):
says she wanted it classic defense. So it's a mighty
and I could say the end credits, it's like such
a mighty group. Beady, Melinda, Stabler, Benson, Kragan, Munch and
Finn and then gray Lick gray Lick, I forgot her name.
I wrote, Is that an objection you're raising? I didn't

(33:38):
even good moment, like that's what we should just call her.
It's like her only good moment. I don't think that's
an objection you're raising. With the boner guy, I don't
even think we see her in this episode. No, no,
but she's But anyways, it's a very powerful photo and
I will bring up people sent it a bunch to us,
But you saw that woman talking about how like she

(33:59):
found like someone talking about the top five Sview characters. Yeah, yes,
did you want that? And it was insane and she goes,
oh bad, and she goes, okay, yeah, for sure, for sure,
and then it's Melinda. She goes, of course, you get
my Melinda in the top five. Benson's at three, and
then it was Cabot and then Novak, who we love.

(34:22):
But it's like, not even Stablers in the top five, Like,
what are you talking about? And I think Munch would
be in my top five. Munch is definitely in my
top five. He's actually because to me, if we're talking
top you know tops, it's like Benson, it's kind of
a given, Like you don't have to bring up Benson.
It's like she's just the show. But Munch is definitely

(34:44):
my Yeah, what are you talking about? But and I
get to have Cabot or Novak, but for Novak to
be the number one character of Sview history is just
inappropriate even though we love her.

Speaker 2 (35:00):
Wait, that is crazy that gray Lick is in the credits.
But this is a cabin episode. I think gray Lick's
gone by now.

Speaker 1 (35:10):
Oh that's so funny. So they kicked her out but
they kept her in the credit. Yeah, I think she
was episode twenty one. I think she leaves earlier in
the season. Oh my god, amazing, amazing. So we're back.
I just that list. I don't even know who made
that list, was just like a random person or a magazine,
like I don't know, but that woman was very funny
on the TikTok. So thanks everyone that sent it to us.

(35:31):
And Pam said, okay, So then now we're talking to Pam.
We're back from this like magical credits moment, and Pam
is like, that is not my screen name. That's not me,
and Benson goes, no, no, I believe you do not get it,
twisted girl, But we got to figure this out. Benson goes,
this dude had your address and she's like, I didn't
even know there were rape fantasy sites. So they're gonna
check all the computers and she's like, well, you won't

(35:52):
find anything online. And then stablers with a tech with
a sexy haircut in frames and her name is Linda
part the actress. Her name on the show is Taru Tech.
But she's in twenty six episodes of BOSH, so I
don't know if you remember her, but she's working. She's
out there. But she was only a Tararu Tech once
and okay, no name, no name in this. So then

(36:14):
Stabler's like anyone else able to use this computer? And
she goes, no why and Stabler waves are over and
it's a bunch of naked photos of her and she goes,
this is fake. This is fake, and she leaps at
the keyboard and the tech is like, back off, bitch,
this is evidence. And there's just like all this porn
child abuse images, all these naked photos of her and videos,
and so it's like it's really wild, and both parties

(36:37):
are sticking to their story and Finn is leading the
all hands on deck meeting at the precinct. Munch thinks
Owen is suspicious because he does troll rape fantasy websites often,
and is this something to discuss? Is this what you're
talking about in the true crime Like is this good? Okay, yeah,
I am clearly a rapist, but.

Speaker 2 (37:00):
I'm gonna talk about it a bit, Yes, And also,
Linda Park in Bosh plays Lance Reddick's second wife, so
his first wife is Jeffrey's aka Michelle Hurd. She was
recast with another wife as the same wife. They get
divorced and he's with Linda Park. She's wonderful, she's a
great actor. She's in a lot of stuff. Anyway, just

(37:20):
a little side note. I didn't want to know what
to think.

Speaker 1 (37:22):
I was dropping my BOSH responsibilities and this fucking podcast.
I know Jesus christ is Bosh coming forgot. If you
guys know him email, I got his personal email. If
you know him, please let him know that we are
not doing his episode without him, and he better fucking

(37:43):
get to it. We have a lot of questions, but
I was gonna say, they've done so many episodes now
about sort of this, Like it's really hard because I
don't think there's a name for it. Like what is
it called when you like sort of catfish someone into

(38:03):
a rape scenario, you know what I mean? Like there was.

Speaker 2 (38:06):
Something called like, oh god, I was looking it up
last sear well intent yes, but that was like, yes,
that was it, but that wasn't necessarily like a rape.

Speaker 1 (38:18):
It was like he didn't know like, that's the same thing.
Nobody thought she wanted a rape fantasy and they.

Speaker 2 (38:24):
Were both getting double catfished, right, It wasn't like one
person was totally out of it.

Speaker 1 (38:29):
Like I think they were. Yeah, it is similar. It
intent is totally similar.

Speaker 2 (38:33):
And then it's basically what happened in that second episode
that Amy Landecker did where actually actually her third episode
where she just came back in the most recent season
where her husband set her up to be attacked, but
that was based.

Speaker 1 (38:47):
On the Frenchwoman and then this one.

Speaker 2 (38:52):
I'll get into it later, but it's like I because
there's rape by proxy, where an attacker makes another person
attack someone, but that's kind of like the episode that
we did where somebody called and said, I'm from the FBI,
take that girl's clothes off. Do this start like oh
the Robin Williams. Yes, that's like authority. That's like make

(39:13):
rape by proxies a little bit different. I cannot find
a name of what it is when you like set
someone up to be raped, to be raped like a
in a catfishing type scenario.

Speaker 1 (39:24):
That's one sided. But yeah, I'm also fine with it
being someone's fantasy of wanting to be attacked in like
a controlled way. I don't like someone trolling to do
fake rape, like I don't like that. Yes, well we'll
get into this more. Also when I but, yeah, all right,
I assumed you were going to get into it. But

(39:45):
obviously I have so many questions discussion. I mean, yeah,
I have a lot of thoughts and but no thoughts
at all. Truly, I'm uttering here. I have no thoughts.
I'd like to be told what to think. Please tell
me what's the thing. And while Finn is about to say,
she denies it. But her computer has tons of all
you know this stuff. So the tech runs in right

(40:07):
as they're discussing, like the victim's computer, And so Linda
Park runs in and she goes the computer lied. She
found a trojan horse, which is a cyber back door,
and she doesn't think it's Owen because he did not
have any spyware on his computer. So what do we
do now. Craigan's like, you know, rape is rape, so
fuck Owen. Arrest him. And Munch's like, but it's a

(40:29):
fantasy community. There's different lingo and rules. But also, if
it's not this guy Owen, we need to find the
mastermind who set her up to be raped. Benson and
Stabler are with Pam at the park and I paused
it to type and there's just like a yellow lab
in a cage at the bottom right of the shot,
and he looks pissed to be in there, but like
so cute because it's the dog. And I'm like, okay,

(40:51):
I guess there's a cage dog. And then the victim
is in a classic, you know, trench and she says
it must have been my crazy ex Tighl Brunson two
years ago they broke up. And then now we see
a lot of cages with dogs and it's an adoption
event and she wants to adopt a dog for protection.
And she's like, is this one ferocious enough? And it's

(41:13):
truly a beagle. It's like it's like a chunky beagle. Yeah,
she goes, is this one gonna protect me? But Benson,
I actually learned something here, Benson says, most people are
scared just by the bark. You don't need like a
dog bite. Yeah, yeah, but but it's just like the

(41:34):
floppy eared little guy. She's like, well, this protect me.
So after he like after she dumped him, this guy
he would email her text her twenty four to seven,
she changed her number. He would get the new one,
he would show up at her house, at her job.
And then after a year and a half of stocking,
she decided to leave Rhode Island and she left her friends,

(41:55):
a good job, family, like fucking everything. And she is
really upset. She's like, he fucking trucked me down. I
can't afford to move again. She's spinning out, you know,
is he here? And Benson says, don't worry, we'll find him.
So Benson's back with Stabler and you know, everyone at
the precinct and she's like, you know, this guy's an
S for you, trifecta, stalking child porn, orchestrating a rape?

(42:18):
Is that a merch? I don't know, S for you trifecta.
And then for orchestrating a rape, we can turn one
of the letters into like an orchestra instrument, oh a little,
just some fun. You can't even fake it. Maybe the
A can be a triangle? Yeah, I don't know. So

(42:40):
they have to figure out, like, is it the X?
Is it? Tyler? And Munch goes ding ding ding. He
is here and we see him on the screen and
it's an id, and it says Tyler Brunson, Rhode Island,
but that's only three hours away. And then Munch is like, listen,
I checked in with conn Edison. This dude just got
his electricity turned on and his new digs in New York.

(43:01):
And if you looked at this man's face and went wait,
was he also in a sex in the city, you
were right. He goes on a date with Charlotte when
she decides to double like a double book, so she
has an early dinner and a late dinner. He brings
her the soup. He goes, well, you got the night shift.
I brought you a soup. So that's him. So we're

(43:22):
gonna see more of him, obviously. So the apartment where
the connet is turned on right across the street from her,
right across the street from Pam. But they still need
a warrant and Benson's like, yeah, Cabit's on it. I'm
gonna give Pam a heads up though, and she's so stressed.
Her savings is gone, and Benson goes, we are going
to get him, and she goes, no, you don't understand.
Just getting a restraining order on him was so fucking hard,

(43:44):
and she's like, I wish she would fucking hit me,
because Benson goes, did he he's ever been physically abusive?
She goes, I fucking wish it'd be easier to like
get the courts or anyone. I mean, And that's like
a fucked up society in world where you would rather
someone hit you so someone will help you. I like
hate it, okay, So anyways, she goes, yeah, I don't
know what his problem is. He has daddy issues, control issues,

(44:07):
abandonment issues, anger issues, it's everything. And every time he
broke the order he was able to convince the judge
it was a coincidence. And Benson keeps trying to make
her feel optimistic, and she's like, shut up, he is
never gonna leave me alone. And she did take the
cute dog, so the cute dog is with her from
the park adoption of ends, so that's really exciting. And
Benson asks if the Rhode Island restraining order is still

(44:28):
in effect, but she goes, I don't know, because I'm
supposed to give them my address if I move, and
I didn't do that. And that's what's crazy, because it's
like your soccer needs to know where your new address.
So then they don't come close to your address. What like,
how is that? Okay, they've done that in other episodes.

Speaker 2 (44:47):
They're like, they have to know where you live so
that they can stay away from it.

Speaker 1 (44:51):
Yeah, I'm telling you Castration needs to be back in
the in the vibe, back in Stalking Castration. I bet
people would behave I mean, I don't know, maybe obviously
not Like the death penalty doesn't stop people from committing
cris not a deterrent. Not a deterreent. That's the way. Okay.
So then Benson says, we'll get you another one here.

(45:12):
So Cabot is knocking on like a judge's chambers, and
then like the judge Coohler, this other judge comes coming
down the marble steps of the courthouse and he's like,
what's up, babe, And he goes, I have fifteen minute recess.
I'm happy to help if you need something, and she
and then he asks what are you doing on Saturday?
I ran a civics class at a juvenile detention center
and we need a guest speaker. And she goes, absolutely,

(45:35):
I'll be there Saturday. Can you sign this warrant? And
he goes no. He goes that's illegal, like we can't
do quid pro quo like shit like that. So we
tricked her into agreeing to speak and now refuses to
sign the thing, and Cabot's pleading and talks about Pam's
safety and well being, and we find out in this
conversation that he has a son that was murdered thirty

(45:55):
years ago. So that's sad. And what also, I think
that Cabot was looking for a different judge. She was yeah, right, okay, yeah,
she was like at a door of some other guy
and this guy just like walked down the stairs. Yeah.
So then he can't require him to move, but he'll
allow a temporary order of protection, which she has the

(46:17):
right to appeal. And then he says see Saturday and
walks off. So we get to this guy's house and
Stable gives him the paper in his apartment and he
acts stupid like no freaking idea, like, oh my god,
Pam lives here, and Siburr goes, we know you're a freak,
so please stop whatever you're doing. So and he's like,
I don't know what Pam is saying, but I dumped her,

(46:37):
and Finn goes, okay, then why does she have a
restraining order, and he says, well, she couldn't take the
rejection and it's revenge, and I didn't move for her.
I followed a big job. I have a contract at
the DoD. I do computer training and that's you know,
Department of Defense. And it's revenge. Though she arranged for
her own attack and to go to the hospital and
get a rape kit and buy a dog and it

(46:57):
was all for revenge. Yeah, undred percent. This is what
women do. They're crazy, like so many of our like
the way we view things is through such a fucked
up lens, but we accept it. It's like none of
it makes sense. She's doing it for attention, and it's like,

(47:18):
how did this become like an actual thing that is used?
Like that's what's so shocking to me. There's you know,
men like to claim that they're so logical, but it's like,
I don't know, none of these things are logical that
you guys are claiming. Stabler is not buying any of this, obviously,
but you know, stranger things have happened. Okay, So then

(47:39):
they asked to see his computer. He goes for sure,
but Finn notices his computer as a label that says
unclassified and he has a classified one, so like, we're
gonna need that one too, but he goes, no, I
have top secret clearance and I know you guys, don't
so stop, and Finn goes, yeah, we'll get it, don't
you worry, and we'll see what's gonna happen. And then
Tyler like walks over to the window and goes, wow,
so she's on the third floor, freaky, you had to

(48:02):
tell her the floor like, I don't understand why. Stabler
gets in his face super close and says, I don't
know what's going on here, but you need to get
some help and move on and follow the order and
don't bother her again. Munch is popping off on the
phone back at home base, and he goes, fine, ah,
I have my superiors call your superiors and bad news, guys,

(48:22):
This DoD job is legit. And the computer doesn't leave
the department and like we can't get into it. Benson
answers her phone and we hear her ask what the
name of the hospital is and its Tribeca Emergency Animal Hospital.
Oh my god. Benson and Stabler are on the scene.
What happened Basically, she ran home on her lunch break
to walk the dog. She ran right into him. He

(48:42):
tried hugging her, and she tried walking away. He grabbed
her throat and said, don't you dare ignore me. If
you think rape is bad, you haven't seen anything. She
tried to scream, but he was squeezing too tight, and
then the dog did do what she wanted. Like the
dog kept barking and barking, and then Tyler's pant leg
and did not let go until he let go of Pam,

(49:04):
and he broke three ribs of the dog, but he
wouldn't let go no matter how hard. Tyler kicked this dog.
So she picked the right dog, and but poor baby
has some broken ribs. So we're obviously in cement room bars.
Stabler's playing with his watch to assert dominance because both
of his shirt sleeves are already folded up, but he
has to like force casualness, and he goes, what didn't

(49:27):
you understand? And Benson's sitting there as well, and he's
like so mad about the bite marks, and like it's
crazy that both him and Owen, like all these men
need more attention for their physical injuries than the woman
that is fully being attacked you know, yeah, and he
cries about rabies and Benson goes, oh, I don't think
you gave the dog Rabi's don't worry haha.

Speaker 2 (49:49):
It's also like hilarious that with all of Stabler's experience,
he's like, if I just tell this guy to move
on and leave this girl alone, he'll do it.

Speaker 1 (49:57):
Like that's not how psychomen are.

Speaker 2 (49:58):
They keep doing it until they kill her, Like that's
how it is, Like, Oh, I just gave him a
stern talking to you and told him it was time
to move on from Pam.

Speaker 1 (50:05):
And it worked. It has happened never on this show.
And then but then Tyler goes, I was defending myself
from both of those bitches. And Stabler is like, oh,
so she's a bitch because you ran into her on
a sidewalk and lost it. And he says, I don't
lose control, and he's like wagging his head around, he's
putting his foot on the table. He's very animated, and
he's acting a fool, and Benson goes, no, you have

(50:28):
a lot of problems with control. Your former employer, Immersed Enterprises,
wasn't going to renew your contract a few years back,
so you had a slip and fall one like a
big workers comp settlement, But like, I don't know why
that like proves anything, like fuck corporations get money. I
don't care, like if you were injured. I just think
Benson lost us here for me at least. But she

(50:50):
does have a good point, like you go nuts anytime
someone rejects you, and that is her point. She goes,
you need payback, and Stabler's like, you took that photo
of Pam photoshopped it to be nude because we had
it enhanced and Pam recognized your bedroom and we sent
it to the Providence PD to verify. And he's starting
to look nervous in the face and a little craze
and then tense music plays and Cabot and Craigan are

(51:13):
spying and she's like, hey, you didn't tell me we
have something off the enhancement, and Craigan goes, we don't.
Then he finally like kind of caves and says, she
conned me into believing that she loved me. I was
going to marry her. Well this time I'm done. I
swear we're even now, and Cabin goes not by a
long shot. Buddy and Craigan goes, I love the dumb ones.

(51:33):
And so now we're back with the judge and it's
Cabot and Hashi Horowitz and they're arguing and so like
it's but police are allowed to lie. But he wants
the confession thrown out. You know, it's all the stuff,
the same stuff, and Cabot has under eyeliner and I
love it, YadA YadA. They're fighting, throw it out, keep
it in. And so now we're going to actually do

(51:55):
the huntly hearing and it is granted, and it's to
see if the questioning was legit and should be left
in or not. So we're in court and Stabler's on
the stand for this hearing and haw, she's like, my
client asks for medical attention, yes, and Stanborg goes yeah
for the scratch on his leg l ol, and haw,
she's overdoing it about the wound and now they should
have helped him, and Stabler goes, his pants were ripped.

(52:17):
Should I have gotten him a tailor as well. The
judge doesn't like it and he goes save the jokes
for open Mic Night. Okay, relatable, uh cav It's like
the defendant never got help for his wound ever, so
why is this being brought up now? You know there's
been like no treatment of this even after bail. So

(52:37):
he's so injured the cops should have gotten him medical
attention that he's never once since gotten help for he
did not go to the doctor. The judge is addressing
him and asks if he got medical care, and he's
acting like a powdy child arms crossed adult bowl Cut
and he says he has no intention in participating in
this travesty, and the judge goes, well, that's a shame

(52:59):
because in this country, well not anymore, but you had
a presumption of innocence guaranteed, And the lawyer says, don't worry,
I'm moving on anyways. So then Hash's talking to Stabler
and goes, did you say that, like this guy's wasted
enough of his life on PAM And he goes, yeah,
I said that, but like that's not my fault that
mister Bowlcut thought that that meant not all the charges

(53:20):
would be dropped. It's like a crazy leap. I just
Stabler breaks the law all the time and is crazy,
But in this capacity, Tyler is the one that like misinterpreted.
I thought what was going on? They just did classic lies,
but saying you're wasted enough of your life, get over
it does not mean we're not going to charge you
for orchestrating a rape against your eggs and breaking a

(53:41):
restraining order. Tyler stands up. He's obviously not well, and
he starts grand standing right, and you know it, calls
the court a joke. Benson sees him running away and
down the stairs, and finally two uniform cops grab him,
and we're back in court at the bench. So it's Cabot,
Hashi and angry boy, and Cabot wants remand since Brunson
obviously violated his bail agreement and fled the courtroom, and

(54:05):
the defense is like, oh, come on, he's new to
the criminal justice system. How is he to know you
can't run out of court whenever you want mid trial.

Speaker 3 (54:14):
And with all the people screaming stop, stop now, and
Cabot's like, he has restraining orders and orders of protection,
like he has criminal activities, so like stop whatever, whatever
you're trying to do is not working.

Speaker 1 (54:26):
The judge reprimands both lawyers for talking over each other,
and they apologize, like scold the little children as well,
and the judge talks and says, obviously, we can't trust
this man to come back to court on his own volition,
so I'm revoking the bail and he is gonna be
held in remand Tyler starts flipping out, screaming I have rights.
Cabot says, you can have a toothbrush. He screams at him,

(54:48):
you're a corrupt piece of garbage. And the judge is like,
go do some soul searching in jail and think about
how you're gonna, you know, like, how your conduct is
actually gonna affect the jury. And he responds, considering yours.
While the bailiff tries to get him away, he says
a tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny.
I love that quote, and I feel like we're seeing

(55:10):
it constantly all the time, and not even like tyrant.
We're living it. But it's not even just the tyrant,
like the tyrants. Fans are constantly finding pretext for this
and none of it makes sense. Yeah, you know, it's
just like such a relevant quote. I'm like very into
it because it was well, they didn't come here legally,
and now it's people in courts that are legal, and

(55:31):
then it's like, oh, well, this and that they'll come
up with whatever, whatever, they don't care yepugh, So that
confuses the judge. She says, excuse me, and Tyler is
yelling like, did Pam pay you to do this? To
mek So this guy out of his mind. Yeah. Yeah, Pam,
who doesn't have a savings anymore, paid the courts. Yeah,

(55:52):
that's what happened. He's deranged, he's getting dragged out and
he's like, how was the cheap whore? Huh okay, Yeah,
the judge's fucking Pam. So now at home base, Munch
asks to leave early and get a jump on traffic
because he's leaving with his girl for the weekend. I'm shook.

(56:13):
I am sure.

Speaker 2 (56:13):
Where do we think Munch is going for the weekend?
Do we think Hampton Poconos? Yep, He's going to the
Pocono Poconos. But that's such a long drive, Like maybe
he is just going to the Rockaways, Like where is
he going to merit?

Speaker 1 (56:31):
Like what? Because he's leaving with his girl? And who
is this girl? Not his wife, not one of his wife?
Who is it? Who do you think he's dating? Where
are they going? Beat? But I don't think he would beach, Like,
I can't imagine Munch at the beach. Did he when
is the Carol Caine episode?

Speaker 2 (56:46):
I feel like maybe he reconnected with like that Zebrus
she got back off her meds sebs.

Speaker 1 (56:52):
Yeah yeah, I'm like so interested. Maybe upstate, maybe one
of those hippie towns like Beacon or something, or what's
suck like to you know, she likes the vintage shop,
and then we'll lead a you know, a farm to
table born. I just can't imagine him on vacation or
taking off his shades or his suit, Like, I really

(57:12):
can't the liberty Zebrasus. The next episode, oh whoa?

Speaker 2 (57:17):
And the next episode he does like run into his
old girlfriend Gwen.

Speaker 1 (57:22):
Wonder this girlfriends it's funny.

Speaker 2 (57:23):
I wonder if multiple episodes in a row that involved
Bunch's love life.

Speaker 1 (57:27):
But I wonder if Munch's girlfriend's like, what the fuck
are you doing with Carol Kane and he's like, it's
for a case. I'm telling you, she's ill. She slapped
me today, she's my eggs. I am assassination for him.
That's actually what they're fucking doing. I bet they're going
to the Holocaust Museum Info Festival. Or something. Yeah, they're

(57:48):
gonna go look at military boats. It's like, yeah, all right,
Craigan hates to stand in the way of young love. No,
but but he said, we're shorthanded and need you and
fucking bellser is annoyed. And do you think he already
booked the hotel? Is he gonna get cashed back? Is
his girl gonna take a friend? He's gonna work all weekend? Like,

(58:10):
is he gonna call out to break up? He's about
to lose the girl.

Speaker 2 (58:12):
I mean like he's like, she if you're not taking
me to the Poconos, as you said, this is the
last chance, monk.

Speaker 1 (58:19):
But Benson and Saylor need to be in court and
so you know, rapes never stop, so we need you
and Benson. Okay, So then Bunch really wants to go
on this vacation. So he goes to Benson goes, any
chance will be a last minute and minute like plead out,
And Benson looks horrified and goes, well, I hope not, Munch.
It's but I don't know if he pleads guilty, why not?

(58:42):
I mean, I don't know, Let Munch fuck is that merch?
Let munch fuck? Rest in peace, Staylor's on the phone
while Benson and Munch banter, and he stands up while
gripping the phone and says, I'll be right over, sir. No,
not a problem at all. He hangs up, and he's like,
what do I do now? Judge Kohler, not even his clerk,
wants me to stop by. So Stabler goes to the

(59:03):
judge and he's really scared he's in trouble. And the
judge does confirm that, you know, like, hey, I looked
at your file after court, and he's like, listen, my
investigation was clean. And the judge goes, yeah, yeah, no,
I know, but I've seen you've crossed the line in
the past a lot. Silba goes, yeah, those are hard situations,
and I had to make the decisions, and I made them.
The judge closes the file. He gets up and says,

(59:24):
when wiser men, I mean, this motherfucker has a quote
for everything. So this judge goes, when wiser men than
you or I set up our system of rights and protections.
They gave them to all men, not just by on
case by case basis. Okay, Silbia goes, are you trying
to say a liability to the Brunson trial, Like what
do you want and he goes, no, no, no, no. Stabler's
so confused. The judge goes, I'm trying to hire you.

(59:48):
And then when he hears that, like everyone takes a seat,
like what is happening? He goes, thirty years ago, my
wife and I took our three year old son, Marshall
and a picnic while Shawna was helping me edit my
law book. The kid went to play with other children
and we've never seen him again, and he's really upset.
And Stabler remembers when they caught the killer and judge goes, yeah,
seven years later, when he was disposing of his twelfth victim.

(01:00:10):
My son was his fourth. But like this was before DNA,
nobody made a pattern, and this guy was a trucker
and he was just like ready to pop. So once
he got arrested, this this killer, this pedophile, kid snatching murder,
he gave tons of details, gruesome details, every depraved act,
except he never gave up their locations. But every few years,

(01:00:33):
one lucky couple would be led to their child's remains
in exchange for a few creature comforts, the judge says.
But the judge is still waiting for his turn, and
he's the last one. And this guy has twelve life
sentences and so he really hates judges and Stabler size
and Stabler goes, I'll get it out of him, and
the judge goes, I'm not asking you to break the

(01:00:53):
rule of law. But you know, Stabler's gone. Stabler's ready,
and this killer is dying Fazima, and like the judge
just cannot die without burying his son. Okay, so the
killer's dying of him Phyzima, And then the judges thinking
about his own mortality and is like, I have to
bury my son before I die. But I love how
the judge goes, you know, the Constitution was created for

(01:01:14):
all men. Everybody has to act the same. But I
love that you break the rules all the time, and
I need you to do a little dirty work for me.

Speaker 2 (01:01:20):
And I'm a judge with extra extra privilege, so help
me out. Like it's just hilarious, Like this guy's trying
to be so moral, and then he's like, now I
found the most loose cannon cop I could who's not
gonna get too messy.

Speaker 1 (01:01:32):
You know, I also don't even think he knows. He
just loves a quote. He I bet his instagram is
all quotes, his pinterriss I.

Speaker 2 (01:01:38):
Also love a guy who's murdered, like twelve fucking kids
disposed of their bodies, horrible thing.

Speaker 1 (01:01:42):
And he's like, I just hate judges.

Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
They're just giving me too long of a sentence from
my twelve horrible crimes.

Speaker 1 (01:01:51):
Like, come on, it's not fair. I should be able
to murder any kid I want. So we're back in
court and the judge has coins on his desk and
he's playing with these coins and talking more quotes. It's
a very poetic judge. So he's organizing the coins and
he's talking about Thomas Jefferson, who I think has not
aged well his legacy. We don't love the guy. Okay, Soart,

(01:02:15):
it's time to start this fucking trial though, But the
defense wants a sidebar and Cabot, with a pop of
green under her black suit, they approached the bench and
he's like, mister Horois, really already a problem this soon,
and he goes, listen, I'm concerned for my client's health.
He's been on a hunger strike. And Cabot's like, okay,
Gandhi get a grip and the judge says the law
requires that he be fit to participate in his own defense,

(01:02:37):
and he doesn't want him passing out in open court.
He's like, listen, I'll talk to him on his lunch break.
So step back, let's get started opening statements. But then
instead he grabs his phone and then goes actually a
fifteen minute break. Never mind, so he stops court to
make a call. It's not like Stabler's even calling him.
He stops opening statements for a fifteen minute recess, like

(01:02:58):
this is where you've truly a text.

Speaker 2 (01:03:01):
But he doesn't have a text. They zoom in on
his like very old ass phone and he doesn't have
a text.

Speaker 1 (01:03:06):
And okay, so now we're with an old man with
tubes in a cement room double window, you know, we're
in prison. And the guy goes, ah, yeah, nice, try
to Stabler, but stable like flips his phone shut on
the judge. And the evil guy goes, that's Marshall's daddy,
wasn't it, And you should let me talk to him.
I would have told him I was sweet. This his

(01:03:27):
boy was pudgy little thing like making love to a big, squishy,
squeaky toy. I mean, this guy's gross and then he laughs,
but then it turns into a gross m you can
see like spit cough, like it's really gross, and he's like, oh, wow,
you're tough. That usually gets a rise out of people.
He goes, yeah, I've had my fair share of kitty
diddlers like Stabler's unfazed and goes, you're a member of

(01:03:48):
NAMBLA and the guy goes, I'm no homo. I like
boys and girls. They're the same at that age. No
grass on the field. So just you know, they're really
painting the guy out to be a monster. Obviously. Steeler
sits on the table and says, you're two feet in
the grave. How about you make you know, make it
right for everyone. And he says, Oh, what you don't

(01:04:09):
understand is I'm not afraid of hell. I'm actually looking
forward to it. And so then we jump back to
court and Owen from like the rapists from the beginning
of the episode, he's so annoying. He like hates it.
He goes, I'm I'm as much of a victim as
Pam is she dated the pig. I'm just an innocent

(01:04:29):
third party. And the judges like broke. Miss Cabot has
asked you numerous times to confine your answers to the question.
You were not even on trial here, but the judges
like distracted. He keeps staring at Tyler. He can't stop
staring at Tyler. And Cabot and the rapists talk about
photos and the chats and they talk for two weeks.
He thought it was a woman. They read the transcript

(01:04:50):
from the chat. You know, it's like full court is happening.
It's describing what she wants. I want this tap and
I want that to happen middle of the night. I'm
gonna fight you off with all my might. You need
to overpower me. And the judge keeps checking his phone.
It's eleven nineteen. Now we're back at the prison and
Sailor starts playing with the guy's oxygen tank like the tubes,
so he's squeezing. He's squeezing the tubes clothes cutting off

(01:05:11):
his oxygen. And I wrote, Lol, but I guess it's
not a laughing matter. It is a new It is
a new low for Stabler. Just full oxygen shortens. Oh
did he not do that to Brian Dennehy No, I
don't think so.

Speaker 2 (01:05:28):
Brian Denney just kept passing out from morphine or whatever.
He just like he he'll choke you physically, but if
you're on oxygen, you're making it easy for him because
he's just gonna.

Speaker 1 (01:05:38):
Binge off that little tube. So the guy obviously has
labored breathing and goes, let go, I can't tell you
if I'm dead, moron, and Sala goes, yeah, that's why
you should tell me now. I mean, Staylor's stone cold
in this. He's gonna kill those dudes. And this guy
starts struggling hard, grabbing for the tubes, and Silber goes,
I thought you weren't scared to die. And then the
guy says I can't breathe, and Sailor says I'm not

(01:06:00):
and the guy goes, fine, I'll tell you, and he
gasps and he gets he gets his breath back, and
Sabler wants the location, but he says I need my
breath back, give me a second, and Saylor says, I
don't think so, and squeezes it again. Wait, and who
is this guy? Because he gives me the vibe of
the Bell guy from Breaking Bad, even though I know
it's not the Bell guy. Yeah, yeah, but I'm imagining

(01:06:20):
it is similar vibe.

Speaker 2 (01:06:22):
He was an actor named Victor Arnold, playing Royally Dotson,
and he he passed away in twenty twelve.

Speaker 1 (01:06:29):
But he was a.

Speaker 2 (01:06:31):
Actor in a lot of stuff. I guess a bunch
of movies. Yeah, I don't know, forty movies from fifty
six to twenty eleven, The Edge of Night, the Best
of Everything.

Speaker 1 (01:06:44):
He was in soap operas. Oh, it was in Serproco,
the TV series I Go Wow Surproco. I just needed
to confirm it wasn't the Bell guy, even though I
knew in all my deep, darkest soul it's not. They're
different faces, they are different men, you know. It's just
like yes, So anyways, we're back. The judge will not
stop looking at Tyler, like you can see Tyler is
even like what the fuck? And then now we have

(01:07:07):
Stabler rushing to his car on the phone with Live
telling her to grab Warner and meet at the pool
outside the Bedford Rec Center. So the judge gets a
text from Stabler, and the Judge does apologize he's so distracted,
and Cabot's noticing him be distracted and gives an objection
and like he's not even paying attention. Cabot has to
be like, excuse me, objection, and he just goes, oh uh, overruled,

(01:07:28):
and then he goes, you know what, we have to
stop core. It's adjourned till Monday. And then the judge
runs to the pool and live is there, going I'm
so sorry, judge, Roy lied. Marshall's not here, and the
judge says, of course not. One should always be wary
by information obtained by force. But Benson says, we did
find something, and she tries to stop him, but he
pushes through. So Warner's in there, and basically she says,

(01:07:51):
you lost your boy in nineteen seventy nine, and I
believe Roy left his remains here for a few months,
but then moved them before the pool opened that summer.
But post body fats break down into whatever a chemical
and when that combines with acid based cleansers, it leaves
a distinctive white stain and the judge is confused. But
then we look down on the cement and there's like

(01:08:13):
a white stain of a little child, and the judge goes,
looks like an angel. Benson is at work flipping through
files when Pam rushes in and says something is wrong.
She says, I don't know. Cabot called and said, I'm
being pushed from today and the trial is behind and
I just can't do this anymore. Is it a trick
by Tyler? What is happening? And Benson goes to court
to meet up with Cabin and Cabbot goes, yeah, I

(01:08:35):
know Cohler isn't here, and he's a stickler for punctuality,
and nobody has seen him since Friday. Nobody's talked to him,
not his clerk, nobody. Finn is on the case and
he calls live and says that there's no log of
him at Sing Sing to like visit Roy, but Stabler
went there, which is strange because Tyler is not at
Sing Sing, So what the fuck is like, you know,

(01:08:58):
Stabler doing with this? So right now? And then Tyler
right now is actually in holding waiting for the trial.
So Cabot and Benson go to meet him and his
lawyer and find out like, if the judge visited him,
what's going on? Was he at Rikers? So Tyler does
say that the judge visited him at Riker's Sunday morning,
and Horowitz is like, this is the first time hearing
of this. I had no idea this was happening, and

(01:09:21):
so they did think that Tyler did something to the
judge and horro Wist is like, no, no, they just
talked about the case. If anybody did anything wrong, it's
Kohler like the judge shouldn't have gone to chat with
Tyler about the case, and Tyler says, no, the judge
just wanted to hear my life story. Benson asks why,
and Horowitz was like, well maybe it was, like you know,
started as a hunger strike chat, Like I know they

(01:09:41):
wanted to talk about the hunger strike. But Tyler's acting
coy and annoying and like, I don't really, it's very
confusing what is going on. So the judge did say
that he refused to leave until he ate something, and
Benson and Cabot are as confused as we are as viewers.
It makes no sense. Why would this judge jeopardize the case,
not show and then not show up. Benson's like, well,

(01:10:03):
maybe he's losing it, and Kebbit goes, well, that makes sense.
He's like taking calls in court. He's so distracted, and
Benson is scared that maybe he harmed himself or something.
So Finn goes to check at his residence. Finn and
Munch breaks into the judge's home and he's covered in
blood and they're like, is the attacker still here? And
he goes, oh, I wasn't attacked, and they're like, okay,
what happened to you? Are you okay? He goes, no,

(01:10:24):
you need to get in here. And there's a man
tied to a chair and he's bloody as fuck, but
with a pulse. And then Munch asks who is he
and he goes the Scourge of the Earth. Finn checks
his idea and says his name is Gregory Brunson, so
the same last name as Tyler who's on trial. So
now we cut to Tyler who's like, oh, that's my father,

(01:10:44):
but I haven't spoken to him since I left home
at sixteen, and Benson goes, what did you tell the
judge about him? And he really doesn't want to talk
about it. He's stammering, but Benson pushes him and asks
if his father sexually abused him and he's like, yeah,
that's what the judge kept asking me, And Ben like
what did you tell him? And Tyler's like, well, he
had my entire childhood. He doesn't know why Cohler got

(01:11:06):
so emotional since he was the one that it was abused,
not this judge. So now we cut to Cohler. Guess
what the DNA at the pool is? Not Cohler sign
Roy is like truly a little like a villain obviously,
and it's someone but like, the DNA matched a different
one of his victims and that body was found before
and like the person is buried, but this was where

(01:11:30):
the body was first stored, and so yeah, this sucks.
And then Munch goes, wow, Roy played Elliott like a
game boy. But Munch is in a bad mood. He
didn't get to go on his fuckfest trip. So Werner
told the judge this information on Saturday. So on Saturday,
the judge finds out that the DNA is from a
different victim that was buried somewhere else. And then Finn

(01:11:52):
asks why she didn't tell them, and she says, besides
a tour bus massacre that kept her busy, she also
felt uncomfortable with what the judge was at asking her
to do. The judge asked of Tyler Brunson's DNA was
taken at the time of arrest, and then gave a
lock of hair for her to test. So now we
have Stabler with the bag of this hair and asked
the judge why he asked Warner to run the DNA

(01:12:14):
test on Tyler's hair, And he's skirting the issue and
trying to light to Benson and Stabler and then drops
a bomb and goes, that hair is from Marshall's baby book.
Tyler is Marshall. Marshall is Tyler in it together? How why? Uh?

Speaker 2 (01:12:33):
Yeah, it's crazy. It's one of the craziest twists of
all time. Like he Cabot was looking for a different judge.
This guy just happened to walk up and this is
the judge that's presiding over his own child's case.

Speaker 1 (01:12:50):
Who's it's just too crazy and Tyler's the judge's son
and asks to recuse himself obviously, like even though he's
broken every rule and nothing's mattered, but like now yourself,
like aren't you going to jail for assault? Like Stahla goes,
but wow, and Roy never let any of his victims live,

(01:13:10):
And the judge says this has nothing to do with Roy.
He but he got decades of pleasure out of tormenting
this judge. But Gregory Brunson is actually the one who
took his son from the park, and so they could
have been looking for Tyler this whole time if they
hadn't like assumed it was Roy. Like I wonder how
the evidence and investigation happened, and like that they focused

(01:13:32):
so much on the wrong thing. It probably just matched them.

Speaker 2 (01:13:36):
The kids the same age as this guy who took
all these kids and from the.

Speaker 1 (01:13:39):
Said he did it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it sucks that,
like this judge's son was just being tormented by this
man in the same city, you know, like they stayed
in New York or no, Rhode Island, whatever. Okay, but
it's like.

Speaker 2 (01:13:54):
Also, if everybody's looking for one looking at one massive crime,
it is going to be other people take advantage of that.
It's like what's happening in La right now with these
guys just taking people off the street. You think that's
not a good opportunity for somebody to just go buy
a police badge at an army surplus store and grabs.

Speaker 1 (01:14:10):
Anyone they want. It could happen easily. You know, Tyler
is not the man he would have been if him
and Shanna raised him, and he knows they preach personal responsibility,
but it's not Tyler's fault. He was tortured, and that
like the judge feels bad because he should have kept
looking for him and set him free and saved him.
And Benson says, well, how could you have known? And

(01:14:32):
he goes, well, he was so smart. He used to
count the change in my pocket and he was only
three years old. And that's like the coins he plays with.
So he keeps the exact amount of coins the day
his son went missing, and he keeps that many coins
in his pocket at all times. Stabler asks when did
he start to suspect that Tyler was his son? And
he says at the bail, hearing a quote, a tyrant

(01:14:53):
will always find a pretext for his tyranny, and it's
from an Aesop fable. He used to read to him
The Wolf and a Lamb, and he remembered. And but
for three to remember that is like so wild, and
it's like what you said. The judge can't even believe it,
Like Habit wanted a different judge, but he walked by,
And if he did walk by, he wouldn't have taken this.

(01:15:14):
And you know, if Marshall didn't remember this one fable,
like the trial would have happened normally, and that's that
fate brought us back together. The judge said, well almost,
and then Staber leans in and is like, well, maybe
you can get temporary insanity or during nullification, and he goes, no,
there won't be a trial. I went against everything I've
ever stood for. I've admitted my guilt, and we'll take

(01:15:34):
whatever punishment the judge sees fit, which hopefully he'll get
a a deal. Yeah, that's his friends. Benson's like, no,
you have dedicated your life to the law, like let
it work for you. And here comes another quote, chase
after the truth, like hell, you'll free yourself even though
you never touch its coattails. Okay, well he found the

(01:15:57):
truth and he feels free. He just says one request.
So now we cut to Benson and Stabler and they're
holding a t like Tyler in an orange jumpsuit, and
he's pissed off, like what the fuck? What do you
want from me? And we have the judge behind bars
and Tyler is so confused by this. So they say
hello to each other and then like Tyler's pissed because
he goes, well, you went crazy, and now there's a mistrial.

(01:16:18):
And I have to do this whole fucking trial all
over again. And the judge goes, I'm sorry that what
that man turns you into, it's not who you are,
and Tyler goes me, what about you? Like? Why why
did you attack my father? And the music gets stringy
and then he goes the Tyranny quote and Tyler is
a flash of recognition and like shock, and he goes,

(01:16:39):
it's something I looked up recently from a fable I
remembered as a kid my dad read to me. But like,
it doesn't seem like my dad at all. I can't
remember him doing anything nice for me ever, And the
judge goes, think, try to remember the voice, and still nothing,
But then tears start welling up in the judge's eyes,
and then Tyler keeps thinking and it finally hits him

(01:17:00):
and they both look at each other, crying, and Tyler's
in shock. He goes, it's not possible, and he's stammering,
and he goes, it was you, and then the judge
cries more, cradles Tyler's face. Taylor Tyler now cry. Tyler's crying.
He leans his head into his hand. They're both crying
now I've said crying like five hundred times. I can't
say it again. They are tearing up, uh whatever, there's

(01:17:22):
bars in between them, and he's just like holding his
son's face as they cry, and we wish them both
the best on their journeys, honestly, Like he is a
bad guy, and I think they're both going to jail,
but maybe they'll be in the same unit and they
can work on the relationship. But that is dick Well
baby crazy episode. It's crazy. It's such a crazy episode. Yeah,

(01:17:48):
Like and then it's followed up by Zebras.

Speaker 2 (01:17:50):
I feel like ten might be one of the most
unhinged seasons, but they're really just like swinging for it,
like doing crazy episodes. Okay, let's get in to the cases.

Speaker 1 (01:18:09):
Yeah, just everything.

Speaker 2 (01:18:11):
There's a bunch of stuff like on the wiki and
online about cases. This might be based off of that
I really don't agree with. It's just kind of about
like child killers, like that Dotson could be based on. Yeah,
there's like a ton of child killers that I guess
Dotson could be based on, but he's not the.

Speaker 1 (01:18:25):
Focus of the episode. So two parts.

Speaker 2 (01:18:28):
The first part of this episode is obviously this like catfishing,
rape setup, which again I don't I don't have a
name for it. Everywhere I looked, I could not find
one that happened before this episode took place. But wildly
I found one that happened six months after this episode aired,
and it's extremely similar. Like in September of two thousand

(01:18:51):
and eight, a woman named Sarah Kostovni of Casper, Wyoming,
she met a marine named Jebediah James Stipe.

Speaker 1 (01:19:00):
Ye oh yeah, don't don't go on a date with
a Jebediah. They grew up in a religious bad home.
Like that's not a well kept person. If you know
a normal Jebediah, let us know, I think our dms
will be empty. Well, jebedi is twenty seven, he's from Carbon, Wyoming.
He's like on leave from the Marines. She meets him,

(01:19:22):
they spend a few days together. This is in September.
Then she goes and visits him in California. He's stationed
at twenty nine Palms, which is kind of near Palm Springs,
and she goes to visit him for a few days
over New Years.

Speaker 2 (01:19:34):
Spent a few days there. She was like, he was
different in California. I knew I was probably never going
to see him ever again. Okay, So I just want
to recap that she spent a total of seven days
with this man, with maybe some texting in between.

Speaker 1 (01:19:46):
It was two thousand and eight.

Speaker 2 (01:19:47):
I don't even know what kind of phones they had,
but some texting in between. In July two thousand and nine,
she meets a man and they become engaged, and she
texts everybody in her address book on her phone, I
guess and says I'm getting engaged. Stipe calls her Jebediah
and asks for her address he can send her an
engagement gift, and unfortunately, the stemless wine glasses never arrived

(01:20:10):
because this guy was an absolute psychopath. On December fifth,
two thousand and nine, he posts on Craigslist.

Speaker 1 (01:20:18):
But this is so of the time, Like thank god
we have websites now, Like I would never just like
everyone in my phone book, I have people saved as
like Jim the bar, Like what are you talking about?
People pay saved us don't pick up? Yeah, Like you're
just why blanking. I'm not blaming the victim here. It's
just like the change of times, Like I just I

(01:20:39):
can't imagine just being like I'm gonna let everyone because
we would post on social media.

Speaker 2 (01:20:43):
Yeah yeah, And she was just like, I'm engaged, and
so he asked her for her address. Then in two
thousand and nine, December two thousand and nine, he so again.
This episode came out in May of two thousand and nine,
and this is like happening exactly six months later in
December of death.

Speaker 1 (01:21:01):
I don't like when this happens, though. I don't like
when things are like immediately right after an episode, I'm like,
what is going on.

Speaker 2 (01:21:06):
Because You're like, did they get it from that or
is it parallel? Think like, is it just like a
thing that a coincidence. It's just too I am sure
this happened before two thousand and nine. I am sure,
but this is the only case I can find.

Speaker 1 (01:21:19):
I'm literally looking up everything.

Speaker 2 (01:21:20):
I'm looking up rape fantasy website, like posting as the
other person, like, I mean, I was googling everything, and
this is the only case that pops up. It's also
possible that this happened. I mean, this is kind of
the golden age of posting and websites and personals and
stuff like that that wasn't like as big before. I'm

(01:21:41):
sure it has happened before and that that's where these
writers got the idea, but I cannot find it so
but this one is very close. He put her photo
with the listing, and in the listing he posed as
Sarah and said I'm looking for quote a real aggressive
man with no concern for women.

Speaker 1 (01:21:59):
And.

Speaker 2 (01:22:01):
Yeah, he was a marine. He was stationed at twenty
nine Palms and somehow the girl Sarah spotted the ad
after it was up for two days and called the
cops and it was removed, but not before one hundred
and sixty people responded to the ad. One hundred and
sixty people were like, I have no concern for women.

(01:22:22):
I'll do it in two days on Craigslist. Among them
was a twenty six year old named ty Oliver McDowell.
He messaged the poster and exchanged ims with them.

Speaker 1 (01:22:34):
The person he.

Speaker 2 (01:22:34):
Thought was Sarah, and quote unquote, Sarah told him all
her fantasies, including quote humiliation, physical abuse, sexual abuse, and
then Stipe gave McDowell Sarah's address and on December eleventh,
McDowell broke into her home, tied her up, bound and
gagged her, held a knife on her, and raped her.

(01:22:55):
And he later told detectives. He thought he was helping
her live out this rape fantasy she had. He was arrested.

Speaker 1 (01:23:00):
It had to have been some sort of safe word,
Like what do you mean you just bring out a
knife and tie a woman to a chair?

Speaker 2 (01:23:06):
I mean, a safe word is such a thing that
a woman would have to suggest, And there was no
woman involved in this at all, you know, like these
men are yeah, no, stupid, you know, And yeah, he
was arrested. He was charged with first degree sexual assault,
aggravated kidnapping, and aggravated burglary. And then Stipe was arrested
and charged with They obviously did be boot bops and

(01:23:28):
figured out that Stipe was the one that was messaging
with this guy and charge he was charged with conspiracy
to commit first degree sexual assaults. In twenty ten, after
pleading guilty to sexual assault, aggravated kidnapping, and aggravated burglary,
Stipe was sentenced to sixty years. Oh good years, which
is really really good considering what you hear about some

(01:23:48):
of these crimes. I mean, by then, it's the late,
it's the it's the we're at the twenty tens now,
so hopefully we're giving out the correct sentences and not
like five years for a full rape, you know what
I mean, Like that that is actually going to be
involved in the next crap I'm going to talk about.
But he is serving that out in Wyoming Medium Correctional Institution. McDowell,

(01:24:09):
the one who committed the act, admitted also to three
counts of first degree sexual assault, although I I guess
I sort of think his should be down to second
degree or something since he didn't he should still go
to jail. But it's like he didn't premeditate it because
he thought she was in on it.

Speaker 1 (01:24:23):
But yeah, but I think not having a safe for
the night, like there's all these things that like just
go into Yeah, stupid. It's just it is like it
is wild to me. He also gets sixty years. He
gets the same amount of time as the guy who
perpetrated the whole thing. I wonder why he pled, if
he didn't even get a deal, why he would plead
guilty or maybe he felt really bad. Yeah, I don't know,

(01:24:46):
I don't know. You're right, it seems like you would
try to say no, but maybe there was he thought
there was. It was futile.

Speaker 2 (01:24:53):
McDowell admitted to the three counts of first degree sexual assault,
one count of aggravated kidnapping, one count of aggrivatd burglary.
He also got sixty sent serving that at Wyoming State Penitentiary,
and both will not be up for parole until April
thirtieth of twenty fifty, at which point I think.

Speaker 1 (01:25:11):
This like never happens on our podcast, where I'm like, wow,
cool sentence.

Speaker 2 (01:25:17):
Yeah, they just got a lot of time. They'll be
in their seventies, I think when they get out. I think, yeah,
because it's forty years and they were like in their
late twenties when it happened. Yeah, Craigslist faced no penalties
as federal law protects Internet sites from liability for their
user's actions, which is according to m Ryan Callo, who
is a residential fellow at Stanford Law School's Center for

(01:25:39):
Internet and Society. He told the La Times quote the
idea was that these website platforms were truly communities assembled
of random users with no editorial control over what users
were doing. Craigslist is like a hotel with millions of rooms,
but it doesn't have the ability to figure out what's
happening in those rooms. And we've seen this a bunch
of times like turn on the sun, Like, you know,

(01:26:00):
things are happening in second life or whatever, different websites
where people are committing crimes, and the websites like, we
don't know what they're doing, We're just taking the money.
So that's a wild one that happened six months later.
I cannot find anything about something that happened before, but
I know it's happened because also the show has talked
about this kind of scenario multiple multiple times, but this

(01:26:21):
one was close enough that I thought it would be
interesting to talk about. The episode is truly based on
the kidnapping of Stephen Stainer. Stephen Stainer was born in
nineteen sixty five in Merced, California, which is a town
between Fresno and Modesto. He was the third of five kids.
His older brother was named Carrie, and then he had
three sisters. Keep that in your keep that in your

(01:26:44):
little memory bank for later, Okay. In December of nineteen
seventy two, when Stephen was seven, he was walking home
from school when he was approached by a man named
Irvin Edward Murphy, who asked if hey, would your mom
like to donate any items to church? Were gathering items
for the church, and Stephen was like, yeah, but she would.
But Murphy was just like a simpleton accomplice who had

(01:27:05):
been enlisted for help from his coworker at Yosemite by
a pedophile named Kenneth Parnell who helped him kidnap this boy.
Murphy brought Stephen over to a car where forty year
old Parnell, who was a drifter from Texas, was waiting
for him. They're like, we're gonna give you a ride home.
This is Reverend Parnell, he's a church leader, not trying.

(01:27:27):
Is it a random kid or this guy like wanted
this kid. I think it's a crime of opportunity because
Murphy had tried to help him kidnap other kids and
it had not worked out. So I think they were
just probably cruising around seeing who's walking home from school,
who's alone, who can.

Speaker 1 (01:27:44):
We get and this helper just like an idiot drifter
who is down to do it, like didn't care.

Speaker 2 (01:27:49):
He literally has nothing to do with this stuff. Like
after he gets the boy in the car, he's kind
of like he's described as like a simpleton and like
kind of low iq and you.

Speaker 1 (01:27:57):
Think he believe the church story. Did he know what
was for the crime, like did.

Speaker 2 (01:28:02):
He the What I read was that Parnell told him
he needed to help him get a boy for religious reasons,
Like he told him.

Speaker 1 (01:28:09):
It's oh, it's like for religious reasons.

Speaker 2 (01:28:10):
I want to help turn this boy more Christian or
so I have no idea, but like religious, you know,
always under the blanket of religiosity. So he told this boy,
we're going to give you a ride home. They're telling that,
they're telling Stephen, Oh, this guy's Reverend Parnell, So he
thinks he's a church leader.

Speaker 1 (01:28:26):
So for a couple of days, he keeps calling.

Speaker 2 (01:28:29):
He keeps going, oh, I'll just call your parents and
see if you can stay another night, and going, oh,
you can stay another night.

Speaker 1 (01:28:33):
So he's just staying and then the boy's like begging
to go home.

Speaker 2 (01:28:37):
And then Parnell tells Stephen, oh, actually, your parents abandon
you because they can't afford this many kids and they
don't want you anymore. So I went to court and
I got legal custody of you. So your mind, child now,
and you're gonna call me dad. And he renamed him
Dennis Gregory Parnell, which is the same middle name, but
he changed his first and last name, and he spent

(01:28:58):
the next seven years with this kid, moving the boy
from to various remote cabins trailers in California, enrolling him
in various schools under the name Dennis Parnell, and the
whole time obviously psychologically and sexually abusing him.

Speaker 1 (01:29:13):
It's terrible. It's terrible.

Speaker 2 (01:29:15):
So from seven to fourteen, this kid, Stephen is with
this kid, and as an adult, later Stephen goes, I
probably could have fled because he gave me a lot
of freedom. He let me drink, he let me smoke,
he let me drive his car like around his property
or whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:29:34):
And he's like, I could have fled. I just didn't
know where to go.

Speaker 2 (01:29:38):
And I believed that adults don't lie, so I believe
my parents had given me up, and like, where am
I going to go?

Speaker 1 (01:29:44):
You know?

Speaker 2 (01:29:45):
So as an I mean, it's like we hear this
with tons of people, the people the girl who was
taken and told that there was something called the Company
that was going to kill her whole family if she
tried to leave her. Colleen Stan like, your family's not
looking you know people that they say, your family's not
looking for you. So it's like, where would I even
go so for a while. Parnell also had a girlfriend
named Barbara Mattius or Matthias, who Steven said also sexually

(01:30:10):
assaulted him for a period of time, and she later
said she had no idea that quote unquote Dennis was kidnapped,
like she just assumed it was her boyfriend's son. So,
as we see so often depicted on SVU, as Stephen
got older into his teens, Parnell doesn't want him as much,
so he's like, you need to help me recruit a
younger boy. So he used Steven as a lure to

(01:30:31):
help get a couple of other boys. But it didn't
work out, Like a lot of the attempts didn't work,
and Parnell was like, all, this kid's a bad accomplice.
But Stephen later revealed no, I was like fucking it
up on purpose. I didn't want these kids to get kidnapped, right,
So on Mebruary Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:30:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:30:46):
On February fourteenth, nineteen eighty, Parnell asks one of Steven's friends,
who's a teenager named Randall Porman, to help him kidnap
a five year old named Timothy White. And you see
the little boy in a little bit of this documentary
that I'm going to talk about later. And he's like blonde,

(01:31:06):
fluffy hair, like a little angel, like Timothy White. Like
he sounds like what he looks like, what somebody named
Timothy White would be named like the whitest little white boy,
blonde poster child for the milk carton.

Speaker 1 (01:31:18):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:31:19):
He kidnaps him, and Steven sees how upset Timothy is,
and he's like, I'm going to free this kid and
I'm going to reunite him with his family. So two
weeks after, he's kidnapped on March first of nineteen.

Speaker 1 (01:31:31):
Eighty, but he wasn't able to put it in his
head that might have happened to him. Not yet, no,
kay yeh.

Speaker 2 (01:31:38):
So two weeks later, March first, nineteen eighty, Parnell's at work, Stephen,
who is fourteen, takes little Timothy and carries him on
his back and they hitch hike forty miles to the
little boy's hometown of Yukaya or Ukaya, California, but they
can't find his house. So they go to a police

(01:31:58):
station and blah blah blah, blah blah blah. Everyone's been
looking for Timothy. He's been going for two weeks. The
next morning, police pick up Parnell for kidnapping both boys.
It's discovered that Parnell has a sodomy conviction from nineteen
fifty one, which he was in jail for like four
minutes for Stephen and Timothy are immediately reunited with their families.

Speaker 1 (01:32:23):
And he's like a hero, this kid.

Speaker 2 (01:32:25):
Yeah, and the following year, Parnell gets tried and convicted
in nineteen eighty one of kidnapping the boys in two
separate trials. Now, this is so fucked. He gets sentenced
to seven years for kidnapping Timothy White. Okay, then he
gets an additional seven years for kidnapping Steven, but because
of some weird statute or.

Speaker 1 (01:32:47):
The way the law's written.

Speaker 2 (01:32:48):
I literally I watched the documentary like I could not
figure out why this is happening. And it being his
second defense, he only had to serve twenty months of that.
So he gets like nine years total for this and
don't worry, like, because the justice system rocks so hard
in our country, he gets paroled after serving five years

(01:33:08):
for good behavior. Like I just wrote in my notes,
like what the fuck? Like I was going crazy. Stephen
testified at the trial that he was regularly sexually abused,
but he was not charged with any sexual assaults on
Stephen or any of the other boys that he may
have kidnapped because they occurred outside the jurisdiction of the
Mercenne County prosecutor and were also outside the statute of limitations,

(01:33:32):
which I think I read somewhere there was like three years.
Mendocino County prosecutors also decided not to prosecute Parnell for
the sexual assaults that took place there.

Speaker 1 (01:33:41):
I don't know why.

Speaker 2 (01:33:43):
The kids said on trial they found nude photos of
Stephen M. Parnell's home when he was a child. I
mean he was a child the whole time he was
found at fourteen, but when he was younger as well,
and his family did not want him to talk about
the details of the molestation, like his that we get
into it, like his father, like you know, they did
not want him to talk about this. They're like, don't

(01:34:05):
that's not your business, Like don't bring that stuff up
in interviews or whatever. Some of the accomplices that worked
with him, like the guy that first helped him take
Stephen and this teen kid that helped him take Timothy.
They got lesser charges and lower sentences, but his girlfriend,
Barbara was never charged with anything and she cooperated with
the police, even though according to Stephen, she was a

(01:34:28):
perpetrator as well.

Speaker 1 (01:34:31):
So poor Stephen.

Speaker 2 (01:34:32):
Obviously, when he got home, his life was tough, like
he had been allowed to smoke, to drink, to do
whatever he wanted, and now his family expects their seven
year old to come back to them. But he's like
a fourteen year old and he's like kind of acting
like a grown man because he's been treated like that.
To some extent, his relationship with his father is very strained.

(01:34:53):
He got some initial counseling and after that no additional
treatment because his dad didn't believe in it, didn't say
he didn't need it, didn't believe in therapy or psychologists.
Very cool in this documentary. Even the mom who is
freely talking in this documentary is like.

Speaker 1 (01:35:11):
Well, you know, I believe he had some good times
with that guy. I think he had some good times.
I mean also bad times.

Speaker 2 (01:35:16):
We don't want hm to remember the bad times, but
there were you know, he had some good It's like,
what the fuck.

Speaker 1 (01:35:20):
They're just like not comprehending trauma.

Speaker 2 (01:35:23):
In any way these people, and you know, this poor
fucking kid, he's adorable. He's such a little heart throb.
He comes back fourteen, he's so cute. He's going on
all these talk shows, like Bravely talking about this ordeal.

Speaker 1 (01:35:37):
He went on.

Speaker 2 (01:35:38):
Everybody's asking him all these questions. He did get married
in nineteen eighty five to a seventeen year old named
Jody Edmondson. He sold his story for thirty thousand dollars,
which eventually became the NBC mini series I Know my
first name is Steven, which forty million people watched, which
at the time, it's like we all had appointment. Tell
everybody was watching stuff like this, like made for TV movies, miniseries,

(01:36:00):
like we all watch the same stuff. So that's like
Super Bowl numbers, like the number of people that watch
this kid's story. So the story was quite huge. He
was being interviewed everywhere. It got nominated for an Emmy.
Stephen told this press outlet, the Santa Rosa Press Democrat, quote,
my hope with the movie is that some kid sees
it and gets up the nerve to tell someone and
try to come home. And he didn't want his life

(01:36:22):
depict it as a horror story. He says so ironically.
The night before the Emmys in September of nineteen eighty nine,
sadly Stephen, riding on his motorcycle coming home from a
job as a pizza delivery driver to his wife and
his two small kids, who were like three and two
at the time, was killed in a hit and run accident.
He was not wearing a helmet. He suffered head trauma,

(01:36:45):
and at the age of twenty four, he passed. So
super super horrible and sad, and Kenneth Parnell out of
jail after five years. He got less time in jail
than that kid got away from his family sexually abused constantly.
I have in the in the documentary, people are screaming

(01:37:05):
at the lawyers, going why is the sentence?

Speaker 1 (01:37:08):
Why? Why? Why is the sentence so little?

Speaker 2 (01:37:10):
And no one's answering, and no one answers it in
the door like it's some kind of statutes or whatever
like in the state that it makes no sense to me.
But he just gets almost no time for seven years
of forcible kidnapping. And I don't know why they didn't
go after any sexual abuse charges. I thought maybe the
kid wouldn't testify and then you kind of maybe can't

(01:37:31):
do you can't have a without being able to confront
your accuser or whatever. But they the kid said in trial,
they asked him, were you sexual assaulted? And he like
quietly like confirmed it, like through like being very upset
and like embarrassed. He confirmed that he was sexually assaulted
at trial under oath. So I don't fucking know. But

(01:37:54):
the good news is Parnell was obviously back on his
bullshit very quickly.

Speaker 1 (01:37:59):
Who knows.

Speaker 2 (01:38:00):
I mean, if he went to jail in eighty one,
he served five years. From eighty six to two thousand
and two, we hear nothing from him. That's a pretty
fucking long time, almost, Like what is that that sixteen
years where he's definitely out there fucking molesting kids, for sure,
But in two thousand and two he's back on his bullshit.
He tries to buy a child for five hundred dollars.

Speaker 1 (01:38:22):
He's seventy one.

Speaker 2 (01:38:23):
He's suffering from much like the killer in the episode Dotson,
he's suffering from diabetes and emphysema. He'd had a stroke.
He needed around the clock care. He solicited his caregiver's
sister to help procure a child with quote a clean rectum,
so obviously the intention for sexual abuse was clear. He

(01:38:43):
had the cash ready to buy the birth certificate and
pay for the child on him. So he was arrested
and he was eventually convicted of kidnap, of attempting to
purchase a child, and attempted child molestation. And even though
no actual victim existed, the prosecution argued that he had
criminal intentions.

Speaker 1 (01:38:59):
They one.

Speaker 2 (01:39:00):
He got twenty five to life under California's three strikes law.
I don't know why his sodomy charge didn't count or
whatever towards the three strikes, but he did barely got
any time for what he did to Steven. But he
eventually did die in prison at seventy six from natural causes,
you know, five years later. So he spent a total

(01:39:21):
of ten years in jail for probably ruining the lives
of dozens of children. But we only know about a
few victims. And if you thought this couldn't get more
fucked up and sad, remember that older brother, Carrie that
I mentioned at the beginning, the oldest of the five kids.
He's a fucking serial killer. He became in the nineties.

(01:39:41):
The Yosemite Park killer. He killed four victims in nineteen
ninety nine, two women and two teens. FBI agents tracked
Carrie Stainer to the Laguna del Soul nudist resort. I
just wanted to point out that he was apprehended at
a newdist resort.

Speaker 1 (01:39:55):
They brought him in. He confessed. Authorities believed that he
might have many more victims.

Speaker 2 (01:40:00):
There's like a few victims that they've listed that all
disappeared at the time that he was killing people in
the area, and he was sentenced to life. He's currently
sixty three years old serving life at Pelican Base State Prison.
But some people wanted to posture that he was jealous
of all the attention his brother was getting, like because

(01:40:21):
when he came back, he was like a celebrity.

Speaker 1 (01:40:23):
He was like, but he was also bullied, like kids
were calling him the F word, slur, kids were making
fun of him for things that happened to him when
he was kidnapped. But his older brother was like, oh,
but he's on TV. He's getting all this attention this
and that.

Speaker 2 (01:40:36):
But then people also say that Carrie had these fucked
up tendencies even as like a child.

Speaker 1 (01:40:40):
Well, I'm also questioning the parents the original parents like
we're not gonna get therapy. Our kids are k like, oh,
he probably had good times, Like they're probably twisted fucks too. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:40:54):
Well, I'm gonna recommend the documentary for our what would
Sister Peg Do? So I'll get to that. But that
has a whole section about Carrie. So if people want
to learn more about Carrie and like his crimes, that
is in that doc as well.

Speaker 1 (01:41:08):
But I wanted to keep it.

Speaker 2 (01:41:10):
More to the crime focused in this episode, so I
didn't get fully into all of Carrie's crimes.

Speaker 1 (01:41:14):
But yeah, it's pretty leak.

Speaker 2 (01:41:19):
But the parents, the mom's interviewed all through the documentary
and she's I would just.

Speaker 1 (01:41:24):
Say a little bit too Lucy goosey with like the.

Speaker 2 (01:41:27):
Way she's talking, like yeah, Steven had some good times
there and like, yeah, my husband just didn't believe in therapy,
so he didn't go to therapy.

Speaker 1 (01:41:35):
But you know, like she's just really I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:41:40):
Yeah, And the sisters are interviewed in the doc as well.
The sisters are interviewed and one of the sisters goes,
I feel bad.

Speaker 1 (01:41:47):
I was such a nosy little sister that I kept
asking Steven about all the things that happened to him,
that this guy Parnell commit these crimes that he committed
against him. And he eventually told me, and I wish
I never asked because they were like, why do you
wish you didn't ask because now you know? Or because
he had to tell you?

Speaker 2 (01:42:05):
And she's like both, I mean, like now I know,
like the horrific stuff he went through, and but you know,
it seemed like he was really trying to turn his
life around. Like there's cute pictures of his kids like
playing with him and stuff, Steven Stainer, and it's just
so sad he got to this accident, and you know,
but he had such a like fucking tough life. Kidnapped

(01:42:26):
at seven, returned at twenty four, a moment of minor celebrity.
Your parents don't let you get any therapy for your trauma,
married with two kids that are went by twenty four,
you know, and trying to support them with like little
jobs and stuff, and seemed like he was trying to
get is get.

Speaker 1 (01:42:41):
It all together.

Speaker 2 (01:42:42):
But I think he had substance abuse issues also, probably
from his trauma. But being allowed to start drinking when
you're fourteen, you know, it's fucked but in this episode,
it's thirty years that he's gone, so.

Speaker 1 (01:43:01):
It's less in real life, but still not great. It's
so fucked up. It's like you need contingency play. You
have to like tell your kid, I would I would
never give you up. Yeah, I would never sign you away. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:43:15):
But I wonder, like, yeah, I wonder. I mean, not
that they're always the same writers, but like this is
a this is a dawn to noon episode, and she
writes apparently a lot of the dark ones. But I
wonder where she got the idea for the catfish thing, because,
like I said, I couldn't find anything from before that.

(01:43:36):
But maybe there were like thwarted attempts that they read about.

Speaker 1 (01:43:41):
You know, they were like.

Speaker 2 (01:43:42):
People posting stuff like cause it's not like revenge. What
do you call revenge child's what do you call revenge?

Speaker 1 (01:43:49):
Sex of use images? Is that what they're called? No?

Speaker 2 (01:43:52):
Iways, there was some kind of thing, but we looked
it up, but like it doesn't feel like that because
you're instigating an actual attack, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:44:00):
Yeah, so it's cyber exploitation or non consensual porn.

Speaker 2 (01:44:04):
Yeah, okay, cyber exploitations. It's like it's it's like there's
no name for it.

Speaker 1 (01:44:08):
It's kind of like a well, yeah, because.

Speaker 2 (01:44:12):
Catish, she seems a little bit too cute. Catfish she
is like, oh, by the way, I told you I
was like a hot twenty year old, but I'm actually
a sixty year old woman living in Canada. Like you know, catfish,
she seems a little bit too cute for like setting
up a post to get someone attacked. So I don't
know if there's a name for it, but we got
to find out. But anyway, we have a we have
an interview coming up, so God cleanse your palette, as

(01:44:35):
we try to do from this horrible crime.

Speaker 1 (01:44:39):
But or image based sexual abuse, often laws use more
precise language like intimate visual depiction whatever. We just shouldn't
be calling it porn like fuck. Then it's easier to
shame the person and be like, well, you shouldn't have
even taken Why did you do that? Why'd you do that?
And it's like yeah, yeah, yeah, all right, yeah, get

(01:45:00):
us to the guest, Get us to the guest.

Speaker 2 (01:45:09):
Our guest today is a musician and actor who you
may recognize from appearances on shows like Rubicon, Blue Bloods,
and as the Double Booked Soup guy Eric from Sex
and the City, but we know him best as the
kidnapping victim turned malicious stalker ex boyfriend Tyler Brunson slash
Marshall Kohler. Please enjoy our chat with the wonderful John
Patrick Walker.

Speaker 1 (01:45:29):
We're very excited to have you a classic s VU.

Speaker 2 (01:45:33):
Yeah really truly, such an insane episode.

Speaker 4 (01:45:39):
Totally bonkers.

Speaker 1 (01:45:42):
I don't know a lot. You get to freak out
in different rooms.

Speaker 4 (01:45:45):
I get to chew the scenery, man, I get to cry.
I get to like run from the courtroom and get
tackled by police.

Speaker 1 (01:45:51):
It's like when people ask me, like, if I can
meet an s V you, what what I do? I say,
I want to freak out in the courtroom.

Speaker 4 (01:45:59):
Yeah, that's total.

Speaker 1 (01:46:00):
But you also get a dog bite, which I liked
as well.

Speaker 4 (01:46:03):
Dog bite, there were injuries. I mean I watched it
this morning. I haven't seen that long. Oh yeah, oh
my god.

Speaker 2 (01:46:09):
I just like our listeners aren't going to see you,
but I do just want to let them know that
your bowl cut is not happening anymore. That is a
that was the character choice, I guess. Was that how
you were wearing your hair at the time.

Speaker 4 (01:46:21):
No, no, no, that was a character choice. You know,
I had learned the hard way being a guest actor
on some shows in my you know, my early in
my career, that you you got to show up with
an idea.

Speaker 1 (01:46:32):
You know.

Speaker 4 (01:46:33):
I made the mistake early on of being like, well
the director will tell me what to do, and like a,
you know, they don't have time for that bullshit. They don't,
they don't care. You got to come in with your character.
And so with this particular gig, I knew. I was like,
I'm and I put the hair down and I just
was like, I'm going to make a choice, make a
bold choice, and go for it. And you know, it

(01:46:53):
was fun.

Speaker 1 (01:46:54):
What did you see for him? Like is he cutting
his own hair? Is this some trauma? Is he going
to the same barn?

Speaker 4 (01:47:01):
You know, it's probably cutting his own hair. He's not
doing well, he's he's he's he's yeah, but but he.

Speaker 1 (01:47:09):
Does just a high job like clearance job at the
Detarmament of Defense and living in Manhattan. It is like
kind of crazy.

Speaker 4 (01:47:16):
Yeah, yeah, I know he was. I mean, he was
probably making some money, but yeah, he had issues. The
guy had some serious issues.

Speaker 1 (01:47:23):
And you get kidnapped, you buy a molester, it's going
to affect your love life, You're.

Speaker 2 (01:47:27):
Going to be a stalker. You know, these things all
lead to each other.

Speaker 1 (01:47:32):
But what are your thoughts when you watch it? So
you know, this was like twelve years ago, maybe more.

Speaker 4 (01:47:38):
Like what did you feel two thousand and nine.

Speaker 2 (01:47:41):
Yeah, it was literally almost sixteen years ago. And again,
we always appreciate people coming on our podcast to talk
about something they did sixteen years ago, so thank you.

Speaker 4 (01:47:50):
You know, what I remember interestingly is, you know, I
had auditioned for SCU a lot, as all like young
actors in New York at that time had done, and
was frustrated with the fact that I hadn't booked, you know,
a gig on the show yet. And when this came along,
it was the first one that really felt like kind
of a meaty role, and I really worked hard on

(01:48:10):
the audition and I remember I went in and I
felt great, you know, they seemed to really respond and
I was like, oh my god, I think this might happen.
And a couple days later made it was like they
went another way. So I didn't get the job right,
So I was like, damn it. I really thought this
was going to happen. So I don't remember the exact timeline.
I don't remember if they started shooting immediately, but within

(01:48:31):
a short amount of time, maybe it was just a
couple of days. I got a call and they said, well,
there had been apparently internal argument about who to cast.
Some people really want to do some people really wanted
this other guy. They went with the other guy, and
after a day of shooting, they realized they'd made a mistake.
And so I don't know if this guy wasn't giving

(01:48:52):
them what they wanted or if he broke his leg.
I really don't know. But they called me back and
they were like, would you come and do the job?
So I got, like, you know, a second chance to.

Speaker 2 (01:49:02):
Like and like tomorrow right because they were already shooting.

Speaker 4 (01:49:05):
You had to be like they were already shooting. So
I'm like, Okay, the hair is getting combed forward. I
gotta I gotta walk in there with my character. I
gotta be ready to kick ass. And yeah, so it
was like it was a really funny and exciting way
to kind of book the gig.

Speaker 1 (01:49:20):
You really had all night, huh. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:49:23):
So when you book the when you get like an audition,
obviously you only get like a scene, maybe two scenes, right,
So you didn't know like the whole premise of this script.
When you got the full script, were you like, what
an actual hell is going on here?

Speaker 1 (01:49:37):
Like, no, this is so bunkers get like aud twist.
It's so nuts.

Speaker 4 (01:49:42):
It's like a Darth Vader moment at the end, like
oh my god, you're my father. Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:49:46):
And he likes your hand through the jail bars you.

Speaker 4 (01:49:50):
Know, yeah, we like embraced through the jail bars. Yeah,
in my orange jumpsuit. I mean I got to do everything.
I really got.

Speaker 1 (01:49:55):
To show everything.

Speaker 2 (01:49:56):
It was really you had a lot of face to
face with Stabler kept going you gotta move on, as
if like there's not some kind of heavy mental illness
that's happening when someone is stalking and attacking their ex.

Speaker 1 (01:50:09):
He's like, come on, she's not worth it. Move on.
It's totally guy talk.

Speaker 2 (01:50:14):
But like how was working with the with with Maloney,
with the cast.

Speaker 4 (01:50:20):
They were totally nice. You know, these people were just
total pros. They'd already done a bajillion episodes and you know,
who knew they were going to do a bajillion more.
I mean you figured they it would probably run forever.
It did, but they were total pros, totally nice. Mariska
especially was like very friendly and very sweet.

Speaker 1 (01:50:39):
You know.

Speaker 4 (01:50:39):
The other thing I learned technically when you're a guest
on the show is that they always shoot your coverage first.
So you're like the guy who's nervous and in the outsider,
but they're shooting you first. Why so that it gives
the stars of the show a chance to like do
it a few times without having to be on camera
because they're still like learning their lines. It's like episode

(01:50:59):
one million, Okay, what am I doing in this scene?
You know, not that they weren't professional and like what
they were doing.

Speaker 1 (01:51:05):
I'm also wondering if it's because you the guest stars
usually have the emotional hard ship to do.

Speaker 4 (01:51:11):
But really, if they were going to do a favor
of the guests, they would shoot you last. In other words, yeah,
because then it gives you a chance. You've done it
now a few times where the camera's not on you,
but you're like doing the scene, rehearsing, getting comfortable with it,
and then they turned the camera around. Okay you but
with guests, no, you're the bottom of the barrel. You
gotta just you gotta be ready on the first I mean,

(01:51:31):
they'll they'll do like a master with everybody, but then
as far as the close ups, it's always like it's
on you first. And that was another thing that I
was prepared for this time, which I'd been not prepared
for previously. So I kind of came in there like
girded my loins and was like, all right, I'm going
to be with all these sort of famous actors and
iced tea and you know, everybody, and and it's kind
of intense because you don't you know, you're nobody did that.

(01:51:54):
You're just like some some guy. And they were all
friendly and everything, but it was it was an experience,
you know, having to bring all that kind of emotion
and be the crazy guy.

Speaker 1 (01:52:03):
And it was fun. Yeah, freak, yeah, freak. But the quote,
he has a quote that's so relevant today that a
tyrant will always find a pretext for their tyranny. Like, dude,
such a good quote.

Speaker 4 (01:52:17):
I got a little some goosebumps this morning when I
was watching that. I was like, timely, no.

Speaker 1 (01:52:23):
That because I'm watching one about this guy who just
did a rampage and is killing quote unquote anchor babies.
And that was from season ten too.

Speaker 4 (01:52:33):
It's just like, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:52:35):
It's sad how much it hasn't changed or gotten worse.

Speaker 4 (01:52:39):
I don't know, right right, right, No, I know it's back.
We're living in strange times for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:52:44):
Yeah, now they are all right, well we mentioned it,
we can move on. We've touched on it.

Speaker 2 (01:52:52):
We love to touch on fascism just we just yeah,
touch sean of fascism of the fash. But well, like
we we love a courtroom meltdown. But I'm struggling to
think of another person who actually had to sprint out
of the courtroom and be chased print that happened before, Lisa,
that you could think of, Like, I can't think of
something get tackled earlier, right, they get tackled quicker. You

(01:53:14):
made it out, You're like in the hallway, Like did
they they did all go on, Yeah, they did all
the choreo with you for that, Like how much did
you get to rehearse.

Speaker 4 (01:53:22):
That a little? You know? We had these guys dressed
as cops and they had to wrestle me and they
were like just really struggle against them and they won't
hurt even just really you know, and I mean it
was so much fun. It really was. It was like
an actor's dream as far as like a guest role
on SVU, because I ended up honestly, I don't remember
if it happened before I did this episode or after,
but I within a year or so on either side.

(01:53:44):
I did a you know, I had three lines as
a lawyer, like a young attorney, and it was just dry,
you know, it was It wasn't an SVU. It was
a It was a regular Law and Order episode where
I just played like an attorney with a couple of
lines like in an office, and so that would be
you know, a more typical kind of like just not
not a lot to sink your teeth into. But but honestly,
with this, with with this role, it was just.

Speaker 1 (01:54:08):
Yeah and unusual because like the victim would have more
of the freaking earth stuff after like you're you were
the guy.

Speaker 4 (01:54:17):
Yeah, I was like the p and a victim in a.

Speaker 1 (01:54:20):
Sense, yes, which is something that the show does all
the time.

Speaker 4 (01:54:24):
Right right, And we haven't mentioned that. I also got
to go on hunger Strike.

Speaker 1 (01:54:27):
Oh yeah, you looked real rough then, and they.

Speaker 4 (01:54:30):
Put the circles under the eyes of you know.

Speaker 1 (01:54:33):
You looked rough. Yeah, that was good. That was good.

Speaker 2 (01:54:36):
Yeah, you got you were so dramatic strike like, but
the hunger strike implies that you are innocent and you
are not, like you know, like you're like I'm not
eating until this tyranny fall, and it's like, but you
did it, I know, I kind of yead No.

Speaker 4 (01:54:56):
I was just going to say, it's like, in a way,
by the end of the show, we've forgotten a about
the victim, the woman, I mean, she kind of it's
not really about her for the last like, you know,
a quarter of the show, it's about me and the dad.
So it's very funny how it just feered away from
the actual crime. I committed to this kind of emotional
reunion with even.

Speaker 1 (01:55:17):
The guy who ended up physically assaulting her also is
on the standing like I'm the victim here, like.

Speaker 4 (01:55:24):
I thought it was a rape fantasy whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:55:28):
But you're also trolling the sites. You're obviously a problem.

Speaker 2 (01:55:33):
So you like have done a bunch of TV stuff,
But are you a theater person as well.

Speaker 4 (01:55:39):
I've had a very you know, strange and varied career.
I've done a little bit of sort of everything. I'm
currently working on the world premiere of The New Wrinkle
in Time, musical which Inger's crossed. I don't want to,
you know, jinx it, but I think there's a very
good chance it'll be coming to New York. Okay, don't

(01:55:59):
quote me on that, even though I just said it
on your podcast. Nothing official at all. But we're currently
at the Arena stage in Washington, d C. And we're
in previews and the show is very, very exciting, and
I love the show very much, So you know, we're
doing that here and then we'll kind of see what
the next what the next part of the journey is.

(01:56:19):
But it's it's very good. It's very good.

Speaker 1 (01:56:22):
Oh that's awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:56:23):
Ringle and Time is like very Madeline Langele is the
author of that. Yes, like that's like from my childhood.
That's like a childhood. So I think like a lot
of people that are into nostalgia are going to.

Speaker 4 (01:56:35):
Want to go. It's a beloved book. And the thing
is young kids are still reading it and loving it.
Like that's what's kind of it's a brilliant thing to
adapt for the stage because you've got to You've got
a built in fan base of young kids who love
this book. And for good reason. It's a it's an
amazing book.

Speaker 1 (01:56:53):
How are you enjoying? Are not your time in DC?
But also finish what you're going to say.

Speaker 4 (01:56:57):
Well, I was just going to say, interestingly, my wife,
the actor Hope.

Speaker 1 (01:57:00):
Davis familiar, We're going to talk to you about that.

Speaker 4 (01:57:04):
Okay, okay, she and this is obviously coincidence, but she
did the fiftieth anniversary audiobook of A Wrinkling Time Crazy
that came out, like I want to say, six seven,
eight years ago, just coincidence. So it was funny because
when I first got the workshop of this Wrinkling Time
musical a year ago, we did we came down here
to do a workshop for a couple of weeks. I

(01:57:26):
had not had the chance to listen to her reading
of the book. But I finally decided this was the
perfect excuse to, you know, take the six hours or
whatever it was and listen to my wife reading A
Wrinkle in Time. So that was just a fun.

Speaker 1 (01:57:38):
Oh.

Speaker 2 (01:57:39):
Do you remember when your wife did her episode of
Sview Born Psychopath where she plays the mother of a
very very scary psychopath, scary path.

Speaker 4 (01:57:50):
It's scary. I know, I know she had a lot
of fun doing that. I think that was more recently
than mine if I recall that.

Speaker 2 (01:57:57):
Yes, yeah, hers was like season fifteen or something was
season ten?

Speaker 1 (01:58:02):
Ten? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (01:58:03):
Ten? Yeah. So yeah, so she's.

Speaker 2 (01:58:05):
Are you like giving her tips? You're like, here's how
you get in there and handle SVU.

Speaker 4 (01:58:09):
They're gonna do your coverage first, honey, So just be ready, ready,
and comb the hair forward. I think that'll work. No, yeah,
she's she's well versed with on screen acting, so she
didn't really need to.

Speaker 1 (01:58:22):
Any You guys are a hip, cool couple.

Speaker 4 (01:58:24):
Yeah, we try, you know, we try to stay the.

Speaker 1 (01:58:27):
Red carpet photos are cool. You guys look you look great.
Are you guys based in New York or LA?

Speaker 4 (01:58:33):
We're basically lived in LA for six years from twenty
seventeen to twenty twenty three, but we've been before that
and since then we've been back in New York.

Speaker 1 (01:58:43):
Okay, so we are.

Speaker 4 (01:58:45):
We are in Brooklyn. We have a house in Brooklyn.

Speaker 2 (01:58:47):
We talked to a lot of actors where their partner
also acts, and we always ask.

Speaker 1 (01:58:51):
Like, oh, do you guys like run scenes together? Do
you help each other with auditions or do you just
like keep it separate with each other?

Speaker 4 (01:58:58):
Okay, no, we totally do. I mean you know, depending
on what it is. I mean, my kids have helped
me with auditions, yeah, because they're now like a college
age and but my wife definitely has and vice versa.
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:59:12):
I like that the kids are involved.

Speaker 4 (01:59:14):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:59:15):
Are they doing the following in the family business or
what you know.

Speaker 4 (01:59:18):
My eldest daughter just graduated college literally.

Speaker 1 (01:59:21):
Last weekends, coct and.

Speaker 4 (01:59:23):
For years, thank you. For years as a kid talked
about wanting to be an actor. In fact, it was
funny because there were several Christmases around the time Georgie
was like a tween where she would give her Christmas
wish list to mom, you know, to my wife, and
it would be like whatever, you know, toys and whatever.
And then I'd get a separate list that would always
have an agent written on. I want an agent. And

(01:59:47):
she kind of knew not to ask, Hope, but somehow
she thought because I was like the softy that like
I would, Yeah, I'm gonna get you. I'm gonna get
you an agent for Christmas. You just you open up
a giant box and they'll be an agent and there'll be.

Speaker 1 (01:59:57):
A guy in there with like uh yeah an eyes.

Speaker 4 (02:00:00):
Yeah you know, okay, rolling.

Speaker 2 (02:00:02):
Wearing a head piece, wearing like exactly microphone exactly.

Speaker 4 (02:00:07):
But but in recent years has has kind of decided
maybe maybe not to pursue the acting. So we're like
relieved enough anyway, and is now thinking of going to
nursing school. So we're oh, yeah, yeah, wants to help
people and one.

Speaker 2 (02:00:22):
Of the professions that I don't think AI will be
able to take over as well.

Speaker 1 (02:00:26):
A great idea.

Speaker 4 (02:00:27):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (02:00:28):
I have little kids, and I'm like, I don't know
what they're going to do, Like by.

Speaker 1 (02:00:31):
The times, will there be jobs, maybe robot maintenance. I
don't know what it's going to be.

Speaker 4 (02:00:38):
They'll be robot maintenance. So that's yeah, I don't know. Man, Yeah,
maybe it'll just be universal basic income by then.

Speaker 1 (02:00:49):
We can dream, can't we. Yeah, well, I'll talk about
another classic show. You were in Sex and the City. Hello,
the guy who brings soup.

Speaker 4 (02:00:59):
They double booked us.

Speaker 1 (02:01:00):
It was all the double booking.

Speaker 4 (02:01:02):
Yeah, yeah, that's another classic episode.

Speaker 1 (02:01:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (02:01:06):
That was also super fun, super fun.

Speaker 1 (02:01:08):
And that time period has a lot of overlap between
SVU and Sex and the City Men. There's a lot
of on the way. Yeah, there's just a lot.

Speaker 4 (02:01:17):
It's exciting totally. Yeah, that was like I think that
was nineteen ninety nine that I shot that. That was
episode season two of Sex and the City. It was
still like a new show. It's so funny to think
of it that way, but it was kind of like
a new this new.

Speaker 2 (02:01:31):
Thing, Like I mean, besides the fact that you're doing
this musical where I'm assuming you sing in the musical,
you also are like doing music as a musician, Like.

Speaker 4 (02:01:39):
Yeah, I've been, I've been, you know, making records and
putting out music, uh actively for like almost like thirteen
fourteen years. I was always obsessed with music as a kid,
was like writing songs when I was a little kid,
was in bands like in high school and college. But
as my career in my twenties, you know, got going
and I got busy, I sort of put it to

(02:02:00):
the side. But it was that funny thing where like
in my early forties, I kind of rediscovered this this
love of songwriting. And the thing that I found empowering
about making music is that I could I could just
choose to do it, you know. As an actor, so
often you're sort of like pick me for the role,
and you know, you're sort of disempowered by that, by

(02:02:23):
that fact, unless you're creating your own content and like
writing and producing your own work as an actor, you're
really at the mercy of others. And so with music,
I found it was just super kind of soul satisfying
to make records because it's something I love to do
that gives me a lot of joy and that I
don't have to wait around for permission to do it,
you know. And so it's been a very fulfilling little

(02:02:45):
side journey that I've been on.

Speaker 2 (02:02:47):
Yeah, we talked to another actress like earlier that had
similar thoughts that was doing music and was like, yeah,
it's just like the acting is so much rejection, and
with the music, I can just make my music, you know.

Speaker 1 (02:02:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (02:02:59):
Yeah, and now is so easy to put like to
share it with the world now, you know. Obviously getting
large amounts of people to listen is another challenge, but
I don't really that's not really why I do it.
I do it because I need to. I have this
need and just there's nothing I love more than being
in a recording studio with musicians, making you know, recordings
of music that I've written. It just gives me extreme,

(02:03:21):
you know pleasure.

Speaker 1 (02:03:22):
How would you describe your music.

Speaker 2 (02:03:23):
I'm looking at the I'm I was looking at your
Instagram and I was like, it was I was wondering
if it was like a folky Americana type thing.

Speaker 1 (02:03:30):
But I could be totally incorrect.

Speaker 4 (02:03:32):
Some some of it is, but I mean it's I've
always had a fairly eclectic just taste in music. So
there's there's real like rock and roll kind of stuff.
There's kind of more indie rock kind of stuff. There's
you know, country ish. I mean, I've made a couple
of records down in Nashville. My most recent recordings I
made in Philadelphia with an incredible musician friend of mine

(02:03:53):
named Kirby Cybert. So it runs the gamut. There's even
kind of jazzy, some jazzy ish, you know kind of
music that I've made. So you know, yeah, it's it's eclectic.

Speaker 1 (02:04:05):
All right. We'll love people's that's what's your instabio. The
order is singer, songwriter, actor, father, husband.

Speaker 4 (02:04:14):
You know that is really when I when I rediscovered
music in my forties, I really suddenly felt like almost
that acting was like my day job in a funny way.
I mean, and it's not to say that I don't
take great pleasure from acting. But anyway, there's just something
about the singer songwriter stuff that that kind of fills

(02:04:35):
me in a deeper in a deeper way than you know,
because it's it's expressing my own ideas and thoughts and
feelings and stuff like that. It was really around the
death of my mother. Actually I wasn't going to necessarily
talk about this, but my mom died when I was
forty three, and she loved music and and right around
the time of her death is when I had written
a new song that I hadn't written a song in years,

(02:04:55):
and I ended up going to Nashville just to record
this one song because I had a friend down there
who was like, down and do it, and and it
was so much fun. And then my mom passed away
like six weeks later, and I spent the next year
making trips down to Nashville with old you know, I
found songs in desk drawers that I'd forgotten about, and
wrote some new stuff and ended up making a whole record.

(02:05:17):
And it was really the most incredible way to sort of,
you know, channel my grief into something creative as a way,
as like a tribute to my mom. And her love
of music, and so really since then it's just been
like the floodgates sort of open.

Speaker 1 (02:05:30):
Yeah, that's so beautiful. Yeah, how did you? And how
did I was gonna ask how did you and your
wife meet? Did you guys meet? Being on like a
show together, like a project?

Speaker 4 (02:05:39):
We were set up by a mutual friend, a theater director,
a guy named Nicholas Martin, and and so she and
I had worked with him, but never together, and he
kind of felt like we would make a great couple,
so he set us up. We met at his sixtieth
birthday party at Cafe Undoutois, which is a you know,
sort of storied, you know, theater restaurant right in Times

(02:06:03):
Square that's been there forever. And so we met at
his sixtieth and it was kind of a bus We
were both feeling really shy, so we just sort of
said hello and then like at the end of the night,
we said goodbye, just to meet you. But then subsequently
she very fortunately went to dinner with some other friends
like a night or two later, and mentioned told the
story of how this kind of thing had not really

(02:06:23):
panned out, and they knew me, and they were like,
you should you should call, You should call. Yeah, he's
a good guy. So she called me, she said, do
you want to get a coffee? And we've been together.
We just celebrated actually twenty seven years since our first date. Whoa,
which was the twenty first of June was our first
day anniversary and we went to see Into Thin Air,

(02:06:47):
the documentary about climbing Mount Everest, at the sixty eighth
and Broadway Lincoln Square Cinema, and then we went to
dinner after.

Speaker 1 (02:06:56):
Wow, that's crazy.

Speaker 2 (02:06:57):
You guys have been around as long or a little
long for then SVU as a.

Speaker 1 (02:07:01):
Show, a ninety ninety nine premiere date for both things.
It feels like around.

Speaker 4 (02:07:06):
We've been around since ninety eight, ninety eight. Yeah, yeah, wow,
So it's it's been a very good marriage.

Speaker 2 (02:07:13):
Very that's amazing. That's so lovely to hear. Thank you
so much for taking the time to talk to us.

Speaker 4 (02:07:18):
This was really such a such a pleasure you guys,
Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (02:07:22):
Yeah, And this will come out in a couple of
weeks and hopefully people will go see Wrinkle in time
and I hope we see you in Wrinkling on Broadway soon.

Speaker 4 (02:07:30):
Fingers crossed, Fingers cross.

Speaker 1 (02:07:37):
You know, I've started now being addicted to bringing up
every actor to Ted, and he loves this guy and
he loves Hope. He loves them both. He's like, I
haven't seen him in a while, like wonderful he's in DC.
But yeah, Ted, I trust a lot, and we've according
to his reviews of these people were killing it.

Speaker 2 (02:07:57):
Yeah, I mean, you're acting coach needs to listen. He
does like he does.

Speaker 1 (02:08:02):
Okay. He also said he made his acting class watch
my special. I'm like, now that's an ally. Wow. Wow.

Speaker 2 (02:08:16):
Well, you know, I hope that this Wrinkle and Time
musical comes to New York and we can all see
this guy on Broadway because he was delightful and he
seems like he's in this wonderful power couple married to
the mom from from real uh you know, born psychopaths.

Speaker 1 (02:08:31):
So yeah, he loves the craft. He loves the craft,
he loves his children. It's fucking cute. Yeah, it's great,
it's great crime.

Speaker 2 (02:08:41):
I mean, first of all, I loved him also talking
about how he made a choice going into the audition,
which I think was to have his hair look that
awful and it probably got him the part in the end,
And I just I don't know.

Speaker 1 (02:08:55):
This is one of those doing seriously, you shouldn't have
to disc your address, like the burden of everything should
not be on the person being stalked, and we I
mean this is like a common thing. And talking about
like violence against women, you know, it's like, yeah, they
don't take it seriously. Most women are murdered when they
try to leave. Restraining orders do not work, like there

(02:09:17):
needs to be some sort of intervention. Oh my god,
someone posted one of my clothes from one of our
last episodes. I'm like, wait, is this something? What was it?
That bear mace works on men and bears? I go,
should I go with this? That's merch base we're reposting.

Speaker 2 (02:09:34):
Wait, I randomly in my feed speaking of like taking
men's behavior seriously, and shit, this might be a reach
because I'm not watching the valley, but like I have
dipped into the valley. I saw this post about this
woman saying that Jax is like a classic family annihilator.

Speaker 1 (02:09:51):
Yeah you saw that too, Oh yeah, no, I definitely.
I think I think they that was for our feeds
for sure. I think in terms of Instagram.

Speaker 2 (02:09:59):
Knowing what we were, like, you love family Annihilators because
I am sort of weirdly obsessed with family annihilators. But
I don't want Britney to get annihilated or her little baby.

Speaker 1 (02:10:08):
No, no, no, we don't want anyone annihilated. I hope
that Bravo kicks him off, but that might anger him more.
I mean, I hope she's protected and doing everything right. Yeah,
that's the thing. But the video, you don't want him
on TV. But rock bottom no responsibility, blaming everyone. I
mean to get out of rehab and go I'm I
just got out of rehab. I want to go out,
and a woman should not have a five bedroom house.

(02:10:30):
It's like it's just psycho. Yeah, he's yeah, he doesn't
care about his kid. He went and got both to
like he's a dangerous, dangerous person. He has been Bravo
and most reality tea in the world protects bad men. Yeah,
because I think Spencer Pratt was so abusive. Like everyone says,
they're like, oh, it's this beautiful, loving relationship and they're

(02:10:50):
meant for each other, and he's so doning and loves
his wife. It's like, if you watch the Hills, he
isolated her from everyone would show up at her jaw
like he was very not it was not okay, and
then all of a sudden you got ten surgeries in
a day, like blast of ras. Like I was like,
this is what I want. I love it. Yeah, it's
it's tough. It's tough. Yeah. I mean.

Speaker 2 (02:11:12):
The thing about like the way that this comes back to,
like this as view episode two is like, sure it sucks.
This guy was kidnapped at a young age and has
probably had a horrible life. But the woman that was
like fully sexually assaulted his ex girlfriend, like is also
going to be experiencing.

Speaker 1 (02:11:33):
A lot of trauma going forward. But also that's on
the cops, Like why didn't they investigate more? Like you
just assumed this other guy took this little boy, you
know what I mean, Like they had a narrow view,
Like that's the whole point about investigating, Like you can't
have a specific point of well we see yeah, we
see that all the time with the cops.

Speaker 2 (02:11:49):
They get an idea in their head and they're like
this is what happened, and they don't even look at
alternate theories.

Speaker 1 (02:11:54):
Oh you know, I'm always looking a little on YouTube shorts.
But Denzel Washington was offered Brad Pitt's part in seven
and he didn't want to. Yeah, he was like mad,
too dark and weird, and he goes. When I saw it,
I was like fuck. But then well yeah, and then
I saw Brad Pitt say, when he started reading it,
he called his agent. He's like, I'm not fucking doing this,

(02:12:15):
like cop retirement bullshit, and they were like, keep reading,
keep reading, Brad, And I thought those were like so funny.

Speaker 2 (02:12:22):
Yeah, because then Denzel was in The Bone Collector, which
reminds me very much of seven, so but a very
different Oh but you know that in Bone Collector and
seven it is the same bad guy. I'm almost positive. No, no,
it's not the same bad guy. The bad guy is
the guy it's not Kevin Spacey. No, the bad guy
in Bone Collector is the guy who has to wear
the like knife dildo in seven, not but a guy

(02:12:47):
who has to be a bad thing. Yeah yes, yeah, yeah, yeah,
a poor, a poor, sad guy. But yeah, yeah, they're
the same guy. And I was behind him one time
at a comic book store and was like, I really
wanted to be like, I love your work as a
total creepy person every time I see you, but yeah,
this the post mortem of this episode is like, I fuck,

(02:13:10):
I don't know, Yeah, take fucking stocking seriously.

Speaker 1 (02:13:13):
And police, why don't you open up your scope of investigations?
Like someone just snatched this boy like and you and
you just assumed it was this other pedophile. I don't know. Sucks. Yeah.
I just also like the idea of someone just getting
molested their whole life, like what the hell?

Speaker 2 (02:13:31):
And also, if you're some guy that's gonna like do
a rape fantasy, I think that you should like check
in or something in ahead of time. There needs to
be like a like a wor there needs to be
some kind of like check in, like, you know, so
that you're not doing it to somebody that did not
actually sign up for it. That guy being like I'm
just so much a victim as she is. He was

(02:13:52):
so mad for himself, but I'm like, you're stupid, That's
what I mean. Check like check, do your due diligence.
I don't know how, but you got to.

Speaker 1 (02:14:01):
All right? Should we move into our what would Sister
Peg do? This week? For what What's the ster peg Do?

Speaker 2 (02:14:06):
Which is our weekly segment where we direct you towards
sometimes a book, a documentary, a website, an organization to
give you more info about what we talked about today's episode.
We wanted to point you today to the docuseriies Captive
Audience Colon, a real American horror story, which details the kidnapping, abuse,
and heroic escape of Steven Stainer, who I talked about

(02:14:28):
that this is based on.

Speaker 1 (02:14:29):
It also covers his serial murderer brother, Carrie.

Speaker 2 (02:14:32):
So if you wanted more information on the fact that
this poor kid that was kidnapped ended up being related
to a serial killer later you can check that all out.

Speaker 1 (02:14:42):
It's on Hulu.

Speaker 2 (02:14:42):
We will link to it in our show notes and
in a story that comes out the day this episode
comes out. Those are all saved on our Instagram page
under our w WSPD highlights, and our instagram is That's
Messed Up Pod. Follow us for posts about episodes coming
up and general way to get in.

Speaker 1 (02:15:02):
Touch with us. Amazing and next week we'll be doing
Anchor season eleven, episode ten. You can imagine not a
positive one, but come see us live. We'll do something
silly and obsessed with all of you. Thanks for listening.
Fight Fascism definitely bye That's Messed Up as an exactly

(02:15:31):
right production. If you have compliments, you'd like to give
us or episodes you'd like us to cover, Shoot us
an email it That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com.
Listen to That's Messed Up on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow the podcast on
Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod, and follow us personally
at Kara Klank and at glitter Cheese. As always, please

(02:15:52):
see our show notes for sources and more information. Thank
you so much to our senior producer Casey O'Brien and
our associate produced Christina Chamberlain, and to our mixer John
Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cottner, and to Henry
Kaperski for our theme song, and Carly Geen Andrews for
our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers Georgia Hardstart,

(02:16:13):
Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer, and everybody at Exactly Right Media.
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