Lowdown w/ Michael Beach

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Of the law and order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.

Speaker 3 (00:09):
These are our stories.

Speaker 4 (00:11):
Done Done, Hi, and welcome to That's Messed Up and

(00:31):
SVU podcast.

Speaker 3 (00:32):
I'm Kara Klank.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
And I'm Lisa Trigger, coming at you fast and slow
on an end loose. We're an SVU podcast, a crime podcast,
a celebrity interview podcast. Are really multifaceted girls living in
a multifaceted world. Brat summer, Kamala Harris running for president.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
Oh my god, the Home of the Air, Hope in
the air. So that's that's how I feel. It's the summer.
Lisa and I are way into the time machine because
you know, we take a little break in August, so
this is like coming out not necessarily on time. So
if something catastrophic happens in the next couple of weeks
that we haven't touched.

Speaker 3 (01:14):
On, we're a little bit in the time machine.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
But I wanted to say, I don't know how much
you believe in this, But I haven't talked to my
friend Aaron. She's a bit of a political pundit, she's
in the crooked media universe. She has been following a
lot of psychics on Reddit, like what they're saying, and
a lot of psychics apparently are saying stuff like before

(01:37):
Biden dropped out, a lot of them were saying, we
don't see the election happening, like we just can't see it.
We like don't see it happening. And then they were
saying a lot of them were saying, I don't see
either of them winning, which is like a good omen
if you believe in that stuff, that maybe it's Kamala, right,
because Biden's not gonna win, It's gonna be Kamala. So
then a lot of them are saying, and she's been

(01:59):
sending me screenshots because I'm happy to entertain this as
like a fun convo piece, but not something that we
should actually base anything on realistically, that a lot of
them are seeing that one of the candidates is going
to have a health event that would make them essentially
not even able to be like running in the end,

(02:23):
like they'll be on the ballot or whatever, but they
won't like And so.

Speaker 2 (02:26):
I was like, ooh, what does that mean? Yeah, I'm excited,
I mean, yeah, I just got giddy on the inside.
It's never good when you're just like hoping someone to die.

Speaker 3 (02:36):
But I mean, I don't know if it's like a
death or like a.

Speaker 2 (02:39):
Heart attack or like a Tenacious D moment, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
we have to stay in line. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:47):
Well but yeah, So that's what the psychics are buzzing
about on Reddit. So if people are into that, I
just wanted to let you know that's what they're talking about.
That's what I'm getting from my friend. She's also like
on materni leave, so I think she's deep down into.

Speaker 3 (03:02):
Uh she had another kid.

Speaker 1 (03:03):
Oh yes, yeah, so she's she's deep down into some
Reddit holes. But yeah, do you want to tell about
the lift driver or something that you were gonna say?

Speaker 3 (03:13):
Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (03:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (03:14):
So I had a really long live Listen.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
I'm a working actress, guys, that's just the reality of
my life. I didn't and so I've been doing like
night shoots, which I've never done, which is exciting. But
I didn't get back to my hotel till like six
thirty in the morning or seven, and then I was like, great,
I'll charge my phone, I'll smoke some weed, I'll back
and then I'll get the car back into the city

(03:38):
and it's a two hour drive and he was just
so annoying and it's like read the room. But then
I was like, whatever, I'm grateful that even took this ride,
you know, back all the way back. So I'm like, right,
and if he really is this desperate to chat, I
gotta at least give him something.

Speaker 1 (03:56):
But I wasn't engaged at he just was so annoying
to me. Yeah, what was hell?

Speaker 2 (04:02):
So he was just telling stories about things and like,
oh that this bridge is made out of this steel
and these motor and I would go nice and I
would tell a story and I'd go that's good.

Speaker 1 (04:13):
Cool.

Speaker 2 (04:14):
I glad that worked out. Like I wasn't ignoring. I
had my headphones in. It's like, dude, play your classic
rock and drive. But then I'm like, I am asking
this person to drive two hours like but it was
just like, shut the fuck up.

Speaker 3 (04:29):
Yeah, no, I hear you.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
It's Saturday morning at seven am. Like, what isn't there
like a no talking function that you can flip on that.

Speaker 3 (04:38):
I thought there's like a thing that's like.

Speaker 1 (04:40):
It on the I would love no, I know, but
like in middle future, I think there's like a thing
that's like you prefer silence or something like that. I
don't even know if I have it checked for myself,
but it is what I.

Speaker 2 (04:49):
I'm also not trying to get murdered, you know, so
you're not going to be a bitch either.

Speaker 1 (04:54):
And we have also famously, you and i'd been in
the car with a guy who was falling asleep at
the wheels. So maybe that's how this guy doesn't but
the wheels since it's like seven in the morning or
six in the morning.

Speaker 3 (05:03):
Maybe, like I don't know.

Speaker 1 (05:05):
Yeah, he was just like, yeah, I used to I
did a drive once to atlant Like he wanted to
tell me about like he was talking about the city,
like yeah, you know on this street, in this street,
this pizza place, I've been there.

Speaker 3 (05:16):
And I'm like, okay, I don't know what you want.

Speaker 1 (05:20):
Like some people drive for apps because they have to
work alone.

Speaker 3 (05:25):
Now yeah, and he goes, yeah, I used to drive.

Speaker 2 (05:27):
And then they started wanting me to, you know, move
kilos of coke and it's not worth it, and I go,
it's not, it's really not.

Speaker 3 (05:34):
You got me what? Okay, Now we're getting interesting. Who
wanted him to move kilos of.

Speaker 2 (05:40):
Coke a car service that he worked for, and he
told me about his private clients, and it's just like,
I don't believe you're in the mob. He seemed like
someone with the scarface poster that wanted me this is it.
He wanted me to believe that he was just like
a hot shot in the driving business and like no
is a made man or something like that. I was

(06:00):
just like, sir, I just can't deal with this. I
just my eyes are shutting. I'm struggling for my life.
Like but you know, I was as kind as I
could be. I offered to buy him stuff because I
got anti EN's pretzels.

Speaker 5 (06:16):
Nice.

Speaker 3 (06:17):
Well that's good. That's a nice thing that you did.

Speaker 5 (06:20):
The offer.

Speaker 2 (06:21):
Not ignot oh, I did offer, he said no. I
was like, I will buy you a mountain dew if
you want, or like whatever you need. The thing is
everyone's mad at jd Vance about the mountain diet mountain dew,
and I'm like, that's I do love diet mountain dew.

Speaker 1 (06:32):
Like yeah, it was just a dorky joke. Like it
wasn't like I didn't even get the joke. I didn't
even get that. No, exactly, it's so bad. And then
he stops and like waits for laughter. It's like very
it's giving Jeb Bush like it's very bad, Like he
is not good, he is not helping them.

Speaker 2 (06:48):
He's not that's really great and he is a fool
and he's not that poor, Like shut up.

Speaker 3 (06:53):
It's just like I don't know.

Speaker 2 (06:55):
I just hate if kat ladies were miserable, let them
be miserable. If the life of a if the life
you want to force women to do was the better choice,
Like why wouldn't they be doing like you wouldn't have
to force us to do it if it was awesome.

Speaker 1 (07:10):
I don't really get how a childisscat lady is affecting
his fucking life at all.

Speaker 2 (07:13):
But you know what I don't well, because you know
these types of men. It's like women should do these
things and stay in these boxes and like this is
what a woman is and you need to do that
r It's like, why would you want women to do
fun stuff if like you can trick them into making
you bread.

Speaker 3 (07:28):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (07:29):
But then it's also like he's married to this to
a woman and a woman of color, and I'm like.

Speaker 3 (07:33):
What how is that working?

Speaker 6 (07:34):
Out.

Speaker 2 (07:35):
Yeah, but I mean Candice, you know there is a
high population of Southeast Asians that are you know, Trumpers.

Speaker 1 (07:41):
Oh, I mean vivak Ramaswami. I think is now in
his camp for sure, because I remember the women's march.

Speaker 2 (07:47):
There was like an Indian family and the kids that
looked kind of pissed, but they were all in Maga hats,
and like the dad was confused that we were there,
because I think that's what happened. Like a lot of
Trumpers did come from the inauguration and then a bunch
of dumb bitches came in to.

Speaker 1 (08:00):
Town and in their pink hat. Yeah, I ruined there,
ruined their day.

Speaker 2 (08:04):
But there was a meme with his wife where it
was her face and then the face of what's her
name of Anstravobowski, Oh yes, yes, and had main and
ends being like when you realize that all the hate
is meant for you too, Like I just don't know
how you stand there and go women shouldn't be in
the workforce and then your wife's just behind.

Speaker 3 (08:23):
I just don't get it. I'm it's hard for me
to understand.

Speaker 1 (08:25):
I understand we're all tricks by the patriarchy, and you know,
fooled by society and we're all susceptible to it. But
it's also confusing, like yes, why do.

Speaker 2 (08:33):
You want this? Why do you want this? And it's like,
we're fine for people to stay at home. You just
want to be respected.

Speaker 1 (08:41):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (08:41):
It's it's tough. It's tough. Yeah, it's tough.

Speaker 1 (08:44):
Look, I put my children to work. Rosie did a
lemonade stand this past weekend. I fucking saw that. Was
it a success? Woman in the workforce? Woman in the workforce. Yeah,
she wanted to do a lemonade stand. She's been asking
for weeks. We set a date, we got the stuff.
We didn't make lemonade, sorry, we bought it. We brought
out a cute little picture with ice and I put

(09:06):
lemon slices in it. So I don't know if it
was false advertising. But a lot of my friends said
that they did that as well, so I didn't feel
that bad. You can tell by tasting it. We did
not make it. You know that is some But are
you is it like powder or no? No, it's like
boughta lemonade like I bought like you know, whatever the
kind is, you buy it like a bout like, I
just bought that at the super market and then we
made like forty dollars and she's gonna donate it to

(09:27):
a pet charity actually, because she's, you know, an aspiring,
childless catwoman and she wants to give it to animals,
she said. So it was fun and she had a
great time at the beginning, like when there was like
a bunch of customers, and she loved taking the money
and she learned how to pour the picture without spilling
it and she was really into it. But the minute
there wasn't a customer, she was like, oh, this is boring,

(09:47):
and she would just go play at the playground because
we did it at a playground because I didn't we
weren't going to get enough foot traffic at our house.

Speaker 3 (09:52):
So it was cute.

Speaker 1 (09:54):
Though it was cute, but at the end, like tip yesterday,
not even I was putting on our PJ. She goes
the lemonade nade stand was just kind fun. I just
didn't like it when there were no customers and I
was like, yeah, I mean, babe's that's that she would
just like. Her way of advertising was so funny. People
would come in and she go, you want lemonade? Like
not just like, hey, we have lemonade, ice cool lemonade.
She was just like pointedly asking people, Hey, you sir,

(10:17):
make eye contact with me, you want lemonade. But it
was fun. It was fun, fun, little fun, little activity.
We did it in the morning before it got to
scorching hot. But then, oh my gosh. Today I went
to the dermatologist for my annual By the way, everybody
get your moles checked. And she was, you know, you know,
I love to get a tan. I love to be tan,

(10:37):
and I know it's not good for me, but I
do wear sunscreen.

Speaker 3 (10:41):
I try to.

Speaker 1 (10:41):
She's lying, thank god you did a correction. Yeah, I
try to wear sunscreen. I'm trying to. I'm trying to
always wear it on my face now for sure, body, I'm.

Speaker 3 (10:49):
Sometimes a little bit more lax.

Speaker 1 (10:50):
But I also try to go to the pool like
late in the day as well, when the sun is
a little bit weaker. But she was like, oh, you're pretty,
tann and like the dermatologist is the place where your
pretty tan is like not a compliment, like she's mad
at you, you know, She's like, oh, you're looking tan.
I go, yeah, I'm like, but I'm wearing one pieces.
She's like, no, I can tell. It's like your chest
in your back. Like I was like, okay, She's like,

(11:11):
you're two different colors. I was like, all right, all right,
got it, got it, got it. So I have to
fucking get my shit together. She's get me mad at me.
And now I'm seeing her always in the summer, and
it's like I got to move my appointments to like
the winter or something.

Speaker 3 (11:24):
I don't get in trouble anymore.

Speaker 2 (11:27):
I keep thinking I'm san and then I look at
my legs and they are white.

Speaker 1 (11:35):
It's not for everybody, But what else is happening. It's
the getting to be the end of summer. This is
coming out. Summer's gonna be coming to a close.

Speaker 2 (11:45):
Oh my god, our nice intras are going to be
so jam packed.

Speaker 1 (11:49):
I know it flies by well. I also, okay, I
kind of have a confession to make. Uh oh, I
made all these bracelets in a day. Oh my god,
Like how many times I think it's time to start

(12:09):
antsy store. I don't know what to say. What are
you going to do with all of Well, you just
give them out and stuff, right, I give about this.
This I'm going to give to people.

Speaker 2 (12:17):
But like you know, when you start with a good
idea and you're like, everyone's gonna love this, and then you're like,
is this humiliating?

Speaker 1 (12:23):
That's how I feel. I'm like, oh my god, I'm
going to give.

Speaker 2 (12:25):
Everyone some bracelets, and then I'm like, god, I have
an issue. And then someone requested some. You know, it's
some are some Taylor Swift ideas I had. Some are different,
but yeah, it's do you think that there's like twenty here?

Speaker 3 (12:39):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (12:40):
I guess it's not that bach, but it kind of
looks more than more like thirty. I mean, that looks
like a lot.

Speaker 3 (12:45):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (12:45):
I'm just I can't tell them seeing shadows or the
actual bracelet, but there's a lot that's amazing. And you know,
I'm glad you're like getting your working your hands while
you're watching like OC and stuff.

Speaker 2 (12:56):
You know, yeah, I am working, I mean, and it's
mostly procrastinating, but it is this fun creative outlet and
they do like searching for the letters and making the
patterns with the colors, like and you're not scrolling when
you're doing it, right, No, my my phone time has
been better.

Speaker 1 (13:13):
It's sit ye and I'm not saying that about you.
Like that's me too. Like anything I'm doing that's like, oh,
I'm doing something with my hands. It's like I'm not
just scrolling while I'm watching TV or something. It's good.

Speaker 3 (13:23):
That's a I'm all for that.

Speaker 1 (13:25):
We know as people who have been given bracelets by
a lot of you are beautiful listeners at our live
shows that the ones that are like the funniest and
like the most sort of esoteric are the best, right, Like,
so I feel like you probably have some good ones
or obscure but perfect like yeah, I like, yeah, I

(13:46):
like we love Little Clever, we love Stablers Done, and
we love Mommy's Juice.

Speaker 3 (13:51):
You know, we love like the ones.

Speaker 1 (13:52):
That's like, you have to have seen this one episode
to even get what we're talking about, you know. I
like that, And I think that's goes along with you
have to know this on Taylor Easter Egg or whatever.
You know. I'm cause playing as somebody who knows what
I'm talking about. When it comes to Taylor, I couldn't
even come close. But speaking of you know, friendship bracelets
and live shows, guys, we are going to be on

(14:13):
tour in October a little spooky season tour from your
Girls that that's messed up. We're gonna be on a
lot of sort of West side of the country cities
La San Diego, San Francisco, Portland, Denver, Phoenix. Come see
us tickets links or at that's messed up live dot
com as well as, uh, you know, get our merch there,

(14:35):
see Liza's tour dates, get our promo codes. There's a
lot of information all in that one place, so go
check that out. And uh yeah, let's get started.

Speaker 3 (14:42):
Huh.

Speaker 2 (14:43):
Oh my god, someone just tagged us in a post
and it's Lizzie Borden's house Lego Bill.

Speaker 3 (14:47):
I just saw that. I just all right, let's get started.

Speaker 1 (14:52):
We've got a great episode for you today.

Speaker 2 (14:58):
Okay, we're going to be doing the episode low Down today.
So about the down Low. So they really did something
there with the title. They really switched it up. And
this is season five, episode twenty, and we're at a
sex worker hot spot. They're all dressed provocatively and they're
looking for some work. One dude drives by a woman

(15:19):
in pleather and then so she calls him a scumbucket,
which I gotta remember to call I do call a
lot of the housewives scum, but scum bucket is funnier.

Speaker 3 (15:29):
It's funnier. You're a bucket filled with scum.

Speaker 2 (15:32):
Okay, So the vice cops break it all up and
they call someone a dude who's clearly presenting as a
very feminine woman, and she walks away, and you know,
they're having little sassy chats back and forth, and she
finally sells, well, if you want some of this sass,
you know where to find me, and the cop goes, yeah,
the big girls section at Macy's.

Speaker 1 (15:52):
That's funny, you know. I know we're a cab, but
that's funny. Meanwhile, though, meanwhile, this girl is skinnier, like
way thinner than I mean, she's a very thin person.

Speaker 3 (16:00):
I think it's the shoulder.

Speaker 2 (16:02):
I think it's the muscles and maybe you know, I
think this person is like six ' four, like I
think that's where.

Speaker 3 (16:10):
Girl y yea yi.

Speaker 2 (16:11):
And so they walk towards a car and they're like,
zip it up to a man, sir, come on, let's go,
and then they go, how are you even going to
tell your wife about this one?

Speaker 3 (16:21):
They assume so much.

Speaker 2 (16:22):
But anyways, they put flashlights forward we see the man
is dead, there's a red cloth around his neck, eyes
wide open, and so they do a really nineteen twenties
joke like he won't be telling his wife nothing you know,
or or I did that.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
I don't remember, so Stabler, it's very uh, you know,
nineteen twenties gangsters.

Speaker 2 (16:42):
Stabler's in a baseball cap and he goes, good morning
sunshine to a short hair, thick banged Benson while it's
very much still dark out, take your hat off your
balt so uh, basically, this sky is white male thirties
and then hands Olivia the red thing that was around
his neck. There's no sign struggle. Stabler's confuse, like I've

(17:02):
never seen a hooker use hotpants to strangle a john before.
And then the fashion expert of the sixteenth Precinct says, oh,
these are not hotpants, these are leggings.

Speaker 3 (17:12):
You wear them to the gym. Okay a clue.

Speaker 2 (17:15):
So the Stabler goes, oh, wow, a hooker who works out,
and it's like, I don't know, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (17:21):
Is that so crazy to believe? Stabler?

Speaker 2 (17:23):
They don't have to be in shape, like I don't
I don't get it. Or maybe he assumes they're all homeless,
like I don't know.

Speaker 1 (17:30):
But yeah, it's either way, it's not good not a
good look stick.

Speaker 2 (17:35):
Well, it's just kind of in the episode Pixies when
they're like this young girl, she must be a street walker,
and it's like she's clearly a young athletic girl, like.

Speaker 3 (17:44):
They just jump.

Speaker 2 (17:46):
They just don't They just don't understand the complexities of women.
We are not one dimensional. So they look inside and
there's a condom. There's come inside the condom, so that's exciting.
Seemen number one clue and then there's lipstick on the
outside of the condom. The wallet and credit cards are missing,

(18:06):
but the cars registered to Jeffrey Yorke with a West
Side address. And then something clicks for Benson and she goes,
oh my god. So she rushes towards the gurney and
they unzip and she goes, fuck, he's an assistant DA
in the Bronx.

Speaker 3 (18:21):
I dated him.

Speaker 1 (18:22):
She sighs.

Speaker 2 (18:23):
We're at the credits, and we're back from the credits,
and Benson brings Craigan a coffee. Okay, sexism, No, I
don't know, she's just thoughtful. I don't think he asked
for it. And then Stabler has his hat turned backwards
right now, so he's in his let's get serious era.
And why is Craigan so tired? I don't know why
I asked that.

Speaker 3 (18:43):
I don't know. It's like it's okay to be tired.

Speaker 2 (18:46):
But he says that he had to actually call the
Bronx at two am to tell him about the DA death,
you know, and it's like, hey, your DA is in
a known sex worker hot spot, Stroll, and their office says, well,
hopefully you guys aren't jumping to conclusions, and Creigan goes,
are right, guys, and Stabler goes, sure, the guy just

(19:07):
like hanging out with strippers in his spare time, and
Benson's like, no, hooker's stab or cut.

Speaker 3 (19:12):
They do not strangle.

Speaker 2 (19:14):
But Stabler's like, well, they could be on crack and
Benson's so they could be on crack but not work out.
And Benson's like that's bullshit. How many women do you
know with that kind of upper body strength to choke
a guy. So Craigan suggests maybe a transworker and Benson's like,
oh no, no, no, that wasn't his type. And he
also was not the type to look for street sex.

(19:35):
Like something is off here and she walks off in
a huff, and she's taking this as like a personal
attack on her. Sabler's like everyone has secrets, you know that.
So what's he doing down there? If it wasn't for sex?
How about that? So then Finn walks in right in
the nick of time. Hey, sometimes things are just like
the way they are, and he has two pieces of

(19:55):
paper and you know he's reporting. And there's prints from
the past her door handle and also the dead guy's
belt buckle.

Speaker 3 (20:03):
Same prince.

Speaker 2 (20:04):
It's a man Kevin Brown aka Keisha Brown, and she's
a known transsex worker who we met earlier in the episode,
who you know, might or might not shop at Macy's.

Speaker 3 (20:14):
So we got to go talk to her.

Speaker 2 (20:16):
And then Craigan sends munchin Finn to go through jeff
Yorke's last three years of cases as a bronx DA.
So Benson looks shocked, like, WHOA.

Speaker 3 (20:27):
Was I wrong?

Speaker 1 (20:28):
Fuck?

Speaker 2 (20:29):
So we're we're with Keisha Brown and she goes, Nope,
not me. I didn't kick him. I didn't kick him.
She didn't kick him or kill him. She didn't kill him.
So she says she did touch the car though he
was already dead. She did want to rob him, but
the wallet was already gone. She only took a gym back,
but there were closes in it, not her style. She
threw the bag under an underpass, and so they bully

(20:51):
her a little bit back and forth.

Speaker 3 (20:52):
She doesn't want to get you charged with murder.

Speaker 2 (20:55):
She knows how these dirty cops play, but she finally
does confess about the bag. So we have a young
baby o'haleran, and he's digging in a dumpster and that's
pretty funny. And Stabler gets dirt on Jeff from Benson.
You know, they're chatting while he's digging, so he doesn't
remember her mentioning him, and she goes, yeah, it was

(21:16):
five years ago. We worked a case together. We dated
only a month. Nice guy, but no chemistry. So then
we hear o'haleran success. He finds the bag in the trash.
So it's a red licra top and some sneakers which
go with the leggings that were found around his neck.
And there is a business card and it's for Tina Gardner,
an investigator for the bronx DA. So Stabler guests is ooh,

(21:39):
office romance gone wrong and Benson's like, why would you
know you leave this in the car? Then, so we're
gonna call her up, see what's up. They meet it
Perks Cafe. Perks Cafe sounds like a place where I
would get some over easy eggs. Honestly, they play. You know,
it's like such a nightmare. I did get an asa
e bowl for breakfast. I'm looking at it. I'm gonna

(22:01):
have it, but now I want an egg and cheese,
you know what I mean. It's like I don't want
I got it. I'll have it. I'm sure once I
bite into it, I'll be happy.

Speaker 3 (22:09):
To have it.

Speaker 2 (22:10):
I don't think I've had a I don't think I've
had a produce outside of a lettuce burger topping in
weeks in weeks. So it is good, but man in
my like, fuck, well, you're just getting hungrier and hungrier,
and like when you get hungrier, you just want the
most delicious, you know thing you can get, you know.
But I was adamant. I was like, I'll get an

(22:33):
off Sai bowl. Okay. So this woman at Perks Cafe,
Tina Gardner and investigator. She and Jeff played handball two
nights a week and if this was made today. I'm
sure they'd be playing pickleball. But Jeff Grove, she forgot
her bag in his car on Monday. She's like, we
are not dating, we are friends, and she's really sad

(22:55):
that he is dead, and she seems sad. She did
see him last night around six, leaving the office and
he said he was gonna go home. She goes paying
for sex, like, I don't know, that's not Jeff at all,
but she does accurately describe the contents of the bag.

Speaker 3 (23:08):
They know it's her.

Speaker 2 (23:09):
Then Benson asks about her lipstick habits, and she says,
Melanie Rose, Blush Rose, Why maybe I missed up. There's
too many Roses. They probably got something wrong. She goes,
why do you even want to know. I know who
it is. It's Alvarez. The guy was convicted last week
of murder and he got the max and threatened him
in open court. Jeff shrugged it off, but she suggests

(23:31):
they talked to the other ADA on the case, Andy Abbott.
And we're in a very choreographed, high octane walk and
talk and this office loves plants or maybe one girl
in this cubicle, but the greenery is piled high on
this woman's desk and he's like, yep, they wanted a
deal and Jeff said no, and Stabler's like, well, why
do you think Jeff should have made the deal, And

(23:51):
he goes, no, someone threatened me and wanted to murder me.
I'd make sure they were in jail forever and not
be free. Hello, and I'm with him, and they're like, well,
who is even Alvarez?

Speaker 3 (24:02):
He goes listen a small time dealer.

Speaker 2 (24:04):
In Mott Haven, but he wants to make it big time.
So he racked up three bodies and he got off
on the first two and he strangled them. The first
he got off with jury tampering, in the second, they're
a chief witness recanted, and third time.

Speaker 1 (24:21):
Finally he got it done.

Speaker 2 (24:23):
But Andy's wife is so worried and wanted protection for
him and for him to stay away. But he goes,
look at this tape, and we look at the tape
and the new the News did an interview and Jeff's like, yeah,
I'm used to being threatened. We can't walk away from
every case where there's revenge, Like I don't give a fuck,
I'm here, and Andy goes, yeah, he loved his job,
his ethics were almost biblical, and she said, it seems

(24:44):
like you were more worried than he was. And now
we had got another walk and talk back from his office,
you know, through the cubes. He says that he told
Jeff to carry a gun, and Jeff laughed and said,
you know, he didn't want to shoot himself on accident.
So Andy's like, listen, go talk to Alvi and when
you do, tell him, I said, hello, so Alvarez at
this jail. He takes credit for putting the hit out

(25:06):
on Jeff, and the lawyer's like, lol, he's just having
some fun. And Benson goes, if you want to have fun,
go to Coney Island and ride the cyclone.

Speaker 3 (25:14):
Under used quote of hers.

Speaker 2 (25:17):
You know we always talk about the the you know,
the pickle and the Captain, but I like this one.
She says, I don't find dead prosecutors all that amusing.
And she gets in his face and he goes, easy, mommy,
it was a joke. The lawyer butts in and he's like, listen,
this guy's looking at twenty five hard. He's angry, but
not angry enough to kill a da And Benson's unhinged

(25:39):
and she's like oh yeah, really, and then she accuses
the lawyer of the hit, and you know, the man
is giving me soft I'm sorry. I don't think this man,
but he did get indicted for the jury tampering and
not to mention, an eyewitness suddenly has amnesia. Come on,
he does look scummy, but not murder. I don't believe it.
So too big a risk for this guy doesn't want prison.

(26:01):
He knows what prison's about, and he's not willing to
risk him is the energy I get from him? But
also like he pays dominate Trick says, So he tells
Stabler to tell his partner to relax.

Speaker 3 (26:12):
Not good.

Speaker 2 (26:13):
So the lawyer says, here's my office number, my cell
numb my ohone number, you know, here's everything.

Speaker 3 (26:19):
Here's the log of all my calls.

Speaker 2 (26:21):
I got no games here and Alvarez says he's had
no visitors but the lawyer so, you know, but earlier
he did take credit for it, and he goes, yeah, yeah,
I'm just kidding, like, no, no, cap I don't know.
I actually two boys walking on my street and one
of them said, no, cap I like, I've never seen it.

Speaker 3 (26:41):
I've never heard it out in the world.

Speaker 1 (26:43):
In the wild.

Speaker 3 (26:45):
Are you googling what it means?

Speaker 7 (26:47):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (26:47):
I sell you, God, I tell you it means the truth.
Like no lies, right, no, lie, no lie.

Speaker 2 (26:53):
Yeah, we're all back at the office. No one has anything,
and you know they ran all the pieces from the crowd.
Have nothing's popping out that looks similar. Craigan screams to
get more specific and like keep looking at crimes for
a pattern. Finn says that Jeff York left the courthouse
for the night at six fourteen, but he wasn't killed
until nine or ten, so there are three hours unaccounted for.

(27:14):
At this moment, the Bronx DA walks in Francisco Martinez.
He wants to talk to Craigan privately. He comes with
a folder of information. It's York's bank statements and it
was received by the DA's office two weeks ago. There
was an investigation because Alvarez, like on the inside, said
that he bought off York to throw the trial. But
money actually wasn't going in at all when they looked

(27:36):
into it. But five hundred dollars was going out every
three days, so how did he afford that? And he
wasn't paying bills, his credits in the toilet. What's going
on here? So the bronx DA dude is like, I
have no clue. It's up to you now I want
to find out who killed him.

Speaker 3 (27:50):
He leaves.

Speaker 2 (27:51):
Stabler gets a soda from the vending machine and then
he tosses it in the air, flips it around, catches it,
and then hands it to Craigan. It would explode unless
it's a brisk Unless it's a brisk iced tea, but
like anything else is.

Speaker 1 (28:04):
It it's got a minute made lemonade or otherwise you're
about to prank your boss. And Creagan doesn't open it,
so like he probably is also thinking, like, got my
detective is a fucking idiot? Why are you juggling?

Speaker 7 (28:16):
Do you?

Speaker 1 (28:17):
Are you a believer in the tap tap tap stops
the I don't know. I'm a believer, but I do it.

Speaker 2 (28:22):
Yeah, I do it, whether it's a calm can of
coke or bustling. I tap tap tap Yeah, I've never
drank out of a can without tapping it.

Speaker 3 (28:34):
Ever, No, I'm the same, I always do. I'm like,
I don't know where this guy's been tap tap tap.

Speaker 2 (28:40):
You know, Doctor Pepper has like they've they've they've culture
vultured from the Mormons, and they're making like creamy doctor pepper,
creamy coconut Doctor peppers and stuff. Oh yeah, because I
have a friend who on the plane puts half and
half into the doctor pepper can and she said it's good.

Speaker 1 (28:59):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (29:00):
So I haven't tried it, but I am. I obviously
want to.

Speaker 1 (29:04):
Yeah, you should. You need more dairy, so you should do.
You should try it. Why am I such a dairy fiend?

Speaker 2 (29:10):
And then after I had a one of these strawberry
milk things, I was free ice cream day. I didn't know,
so I like ice cream please, so I got a
free you know, I put it in the freezer for later.

Speaker 1 (29:22):
But it's still it's just the dairy is it's coming
on strong.

Speaker 5 (29:26):
You know.

Speaker 1 (29:26):
I have a block of Monster in the fridge. Yeah,
that's where I get my dairy intake. For me, it's cheese.
I'm like a cheese I'm a cheese cycle, I know.

Speaker 2 (29:35):
But I'm gonna say something controversial. I hate the Trader
Joe's string cheese.

Speaker 1 (29:41):
Oh okay, but is it the kind you eat at
my house? I mean I'll eat it, of course, but
I hate I don't like it because I get the light.
I do get the light, and I do feel as
though the regular full flavor is probably better. Just I
don't want you to like be fully against the Trader
Joe's if you're only having it at my house because
I am getting the lights, okay, Yeah, which is which sucks,
I mean, and it's certainly not as good as like, uh,

(30:02):
what was the one you had that one time where
you were like, oh my god, it was like a
hidden valley string cheese and you were like freaking out
about it. You were like, this is so good. This
is the best dring cheese I've ever had. But I
wish we could remember the brand.

Speaker 4 (30:14):
You know.

Speaker 2 (30:14):
It's one of those things where it's like, hey, do
you want to eat seven string cheeses? And it's like
absolutely not, are you crazy? And then it's like, well,
how about we deep fry them and put him in
a you'll dip And it's like, actually, I will pass
that over to me. Yeah, no one could have any.

Speaker 1 (30:28):
Yeah, absolutely, So all right, where are we?

Speaker 2 (30:31):
I'm sorry I'm talking so much about Dary. We have
not even gotten to the lowdown of the lowdown. So anyways,
there's a soda we got to find out who killed him? Okay,
Cragan's in suspenders and basically jeffinitely had thirty dollars in
his account the night he died. The stock screen came
back clean as well, and Stable tells Craigan that Benson's
a little over zealous about this case, and Craigan goes, well, yeah,

(30:54):
I would be too if I was her.

Speaker 3 (30:55):
What are you talking about?

Speaker 2 (30:57):
So she pops in and she's like, hey, so I
called the lab and they're going to run the lipstick.
He tries to shut her down, and she's like, how
about you just listen. And the DA's investigator who worked
for Jeff told them that she carried lipstick in her bag,
but we didn't find it. And guess what. The lipstick
matches the condom lipstick? But whose lips? You know what's
going on here? So did she leave saliva behind? What's

(31:18):
what's up? So no, basically Judas Cziper Captain Judas Ciper
aka Karen Browning, you know, friend of the pod. She said,
the imprint is so perfect, and Sailor goes, oh, yeah,
if it was oral, it would be smudged. So this
lipprint was put on the condom after it was used,
so it was kissed. After Melinda Warner is here and
she's ready for work. She looked at the guy's seamen

(31:40):
vessels and there was no semen in there or in
his body. And the semen in the condom is different
than Jeff's semen and so that wasn't there. But anyway,
the DNA doesn't match. So there were two men in
the car that day. And Stabler says, well, that makes
sense why you guys had no chemistry. He's gay and
so the New York Ledger, of course Prince has line
that says murder da and a gay sex sleigh.

Speaker 3 (32:04):
At least, you know, it's a fun's say. I do
like that. They's the word sleigh.

Speaker 1 (32:08):
Yeah, they were way way ahead.

Speaker 3 (32:10):
Of drug race.

Speaker 2 (32:12):
Casey and Craigan are walking and talking and they're like,
so what went on in their fucking car? You know,
the credit card were stolen, never used. The first thing
a hooker would do is use them. I mean, Stabler,
come on, but it's true. So it's not well, yeah,
because when my friend got pistol lipped in the streets
of Chicago and they robbed her, then the people went

(32:33):
to McDonald's and it's like, you truly broke her jaw
to go to McDonald's.

Speaker 1 (32:39):
Yeah, so fuck up. I feel like always what I
would hear in New York is like people go down
into the Metro and like buy unlimited Metro cards, like
a ton of them, really fast, like on those machines,
because like you are going to cancel your shit like
pretty quickly, you know, And if you're getting robbed at night,
it's like best Buys not open if you want to
buy electronics or anything, you know. So people are getting

(33:02):
Metro cards. I think that happens a lot. I don't
think that's all they're getting, but yeah, McDonald's. Yeah, you
fucking that's so wild.

Speaker 3 (33:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:10):
Yeah, anyway, so it's not you know, or I'm thinking
of the episode Chameleon where she goes and buys kids stuff.
So that's how they knew that. It was like a
woman with a kid, you know, maggots and credit card receipts.
They tell us a lot about what happened, so it's
not a robbery, sure, but it was a setup. So
what's going on? Stabler goes, well, this is a known

(33:31):
lover's lane. Maybe Jeff picked up a guy and had
a good time with him in Casey's like, then what
is the motive to kill him? And Craigan goes, maybe
an accident from rough sex and Benson goes, I don't know.
He seemed kind of vanilla, and Craigan is savage and goes, well,
you know, there's a lot you didn't know about him.

Speaker 3 (33:46):
She gives him a dirty look.

Speaker 2 (33:48):
He sends her in Stabler to go check out his
apartment and see what they can find, and he lived
on West ninety eighth. They see he had a lot
of medical bills and the day he died, he had
drinks with Andy Abbott at the Carlson Hotel. Why wouldn't
Andy mention that? And then they find thousands in medical bills.
He had insurance through the DA's office, so why is
he not combining it. Then Stabler opens a cabinet and

(34:11):
finds tons of meds and says that he probably didn't
use that insurance to pay the you know, for these pills.
And then he goes, look at this AZT, so that
means he was HIV positive and he paid for treatments
in cash.

Speaker 3 (34:26):
They're walking outside.

Speaker 2 (34:27):
And Sibblers like geeesh, you good and she's like, fuck,
I'm getting tested and he reminds her, you know, go
private like Jeff did, and she goes, yeah, no, duh,
So she's obviously gonna be worrying.

Speaker 1 (34:39):
Is that like a thing though, Like I'm sure it's
changed now, but like, was that a thing that you, like,
your work would have to know your HIV status?

Speaker 3 (34:48):
Like or was he just paranoid?

Speaker 2 (34:50):
I mean the insurance would know, Like he just didn't
want anyone to know.

Speaker 1 (34:55):
Yeah, because I wondered, like to have thirty dollars in
your bank account because you're worried about your job finding out?

Speaker 2 (35:02):
I guess right, because he's also closeted. So it's not
even the AIDS of it. Yeah, Like I'm gay, I
have AIDS. I mean that's a genre AJO. So like
he does this joke where he's in New York and
someone comes in and like pushes him on the chest
and in this order he pushed millenniy and goes, excuse me,
I am homeless, I am gay, I have AIDS. I'm

(35:24):
new in town. And he's just like, you're gonna close
on new in town. That's not the most dramatic thing
you said, and he goes, you had me at AIDS
and he goes I would have worded it, excuse me,
I'm a new in Town And it gets worse, and
then he's like, did this guy practice the pitch all
in the morning, just like I'm gonna push him and

(35:44):
go I'm new No, no, no, I'm gonna push him and
go I have AIDS. And it's like this whole thing
of him planning how he's gonna like enter and it's honestly,
it's one of the best jokes. And I think about
it every time I think about AIDS, which is I
guess often. Okay, talking about this show, but New in
Town is an amazing special.

Speaker 1 (36:03):
Everybody should watch it.

Speaker 6 (36:04):
Yeah, you know.

Speaker 1 (36:05):
Tim Dillon said this once.

Speaker 2 (36:07):
It's like you never get as good as your first one,
cause it's really like your life's work.

Speaker 1 (36:11):
Like you put all this simon, you put it all out.

Speaker 2 (36:14):
And then if you become successful, you'll never be as
good again because your sense of everything is warped.

Speaker 3 (36:20):
People are just yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:21):
And you're also only taking like a year or two
to put together the next one, probably whereas you spent
like probably ten years making the first one.

Speaker 3 (36:29):
Yeah, yeah, crazy.

Speaker 1 (36:31):
It's like the first seasons of Housewives are always the
best or like the ones before they knew about the fame,
you know, yeah, anyway.

Speaker 2 (36:40):
Anyway, but I'm trying to think because I love Let
It Go by Bill Burr, like that's my favorite, and
I won. I don't I wonder if that's his first
hour or not. But yeah, and you know, John Laney
did just get better and better. But anyways, if you
guys haven't heard this ades joke, you should go watch that.

Speaker 1 (36:58):
Okay, So, oh, where are we? Where are we getting tested?

Speaker 3 (37:03):
Private?

Speaker 2 (37:04):
Okay, so basically she'll worry about the HIV test. But
they got to go talk to Andy Abbott immediately, and
he's tightening his tie while chatting very super casually. He goes, yeah,
we always have drinks after work. I must have forgot
because I was so upset. But it's not an out
of the ordinary thing. I would have popped out at me.
So Stable goes, But we talked to his coworkers and
he lied to them about where he was going. Why

(37:25):
would he do that? Andy says, that's strange. Andy's like,
that's so weird. You know, he was meeting someone for
dinner after drinks. He doesn't know, but also didn't ask.
Jeff didn't talk about his personal life much and they
ask if he knew he was gay, and Andy is shocked,
and then a doorbell rings and he calls down for
his wife, like go grab the door, and he's like,
are you sure he didn't seem gay? The wife and

(37:47):
the child come upstairs. The babysitters here, it's time to leave.
He kisses his daughter good night. The wife buttons his
sleeve and he says that he left Jeff sitting at
the Carlson and he had a poker game to get
to a lot of plays.

Speaker 3 (38:00):
For these men, very busy, very very social lives.

Speaker 2 (38:05):
They're talking to a cocktail waitress who remembers clocking Jeff
because he was hot and she thought Andy was hot too,
And that is Michael Beach by the way, and the
thumbnail on Hulu for the episode is this actor. It
was booked and blessed. He is busy and he is
great in this episode. And she says, you know, and
they're definitely not tourists and they were really good tippers.

(38:25):
And Andy's story checks out. He did leave first. And
the detectives are like, this hotel bar seems like pretty
swinky for DA's and so far from the office.

Speaker 3 (38:34):
Like maybe he was meeting a boyfriend.

Speaker 2 (38:36):
So they go to the desk worker, who seems very
bitchy and posh, and they show him a photo and
he knows mister Yorke, who was a regular guest every
Wednesday and would always check in alone. This week, he
tried to check in, but they were fully booked. Why
wouldn't he just reserve it ahead of time? But whatever,
And I guess that's he's spending money here too, cash,
and so he was so yeah, so he's like, oh,

(38:58):
we can call.

Speaker 1 (38:58):
Some of her sister hotels. He goes, Oh, it's no
big deal, and he left.

Speaker 2 (39:01):
Nobody met him, but he did talk to a football
player on the way out named Deshaun McGovern who's a
former running back for Miami and now he's a big
time real estate persons. They go to McGovern's office. He's
in a giant office, tons of trophies everywhere. He is
relaxed in his posture, and he was down meeting a
client when he ran into Jeff and the lobby. They
know each other from a kid's charity benefit. They chatted

(39:23):
because Jeff needed help selling his place, and they're like,
we saw his apartment. He seems a little poor for you,
Deshaun giggles. He goes, yeah, yeah, I know. But he
seemed nice and desperate, so I was happy to help.
I didn't want to let him down, and I got
the feeling he had money problems. Stabler asks where he
was after the hotel, and he goes, well, I came
back to the office for a little bit, and then
I went out with some friends. I mean, these men

(39:44):
social calendars. These are men who lunch. And so Benson
answers a call. Deshaun offers to give a friends like
the friend's names from dinner. Benson goes, thanks, we'll holler
if we need anything, but we gotta go.

Speaker 3 (39:57):
Finn has something.

Speaker 2 (39:58):
So it's a meetup of the Fantastic four, and they
know who fixed the crime scene to fit the hooker killing.
And it is copies of three cases, a piece from each.
So one of the crimes that it's copied is there
was an underpass with panny host strangle. The next was
a bronx sex worker beats up a john in a

(40:18):
car and leaves him unconscious with condom and lipstick, and
case three mugged and while it taken so and all
went to trial, and all were prosecuted by Andy Abbott.
Did Andy kill Jeff York? So Craig doesn't see why

(40:38):
Andy would kill Jeff though, and then we're like, maybe
that's a lover's quarrel gone wrong. So once the semen
in the condom is tested, we can see if it's Andy's.
But Novak says there's not enough evidence to compel to
get a DNA sample from Andy. Craigan's like, how about
those three cases that match them? And it's like, come on, bro,
you know it's circumstantial, and he can claim someone is
framing him. Wants to bring Andy in, but he's no dummy.

(41:01):
He's gonna lawyer up. So Stabler is like, we don't
have to tell him he's a purp. Let's just say
we're stuck and we need his help. Craigan sends Stabler
to go work on that, but tells Benson that Warner
wants her down at the Morgue. There's fear in Benson's eyes.
Basically she reveals that Jeff did have aids. Melinda says
that she will test Benson and she'll keep it a
secret for her, and she agrees. Melinda's always doing a

(41:23):
solid Benson does a walk and talk and asks swang
like fuck, like I have aids, and he's like, listen,
your risk is low and she's shut. So how long
can you have aids? You think before you realize you
have aids? Like, right, you have HIV first?

Speaker 1 (41:39):
Yeah, and then that you know turns out, So let's
say HIV.

Speaker 2 (41:43):
So like I mean, when do you feel sick? Like
when do you feel a side effect? When do you
figure it out? Like she you know she had sex
with ONEm what five years ago? Yeah, exactly when she
had a tickle in her throat or man, I would
have imagined that also, like Benson has been tested for
STIs at her physical at one point in five years,
like she's if you're working for the NYPD, I'm sure

(42:03):
you have to have like routine physicals, you know, And like,
I don't know if STI testing is part of that.
Somebody can let me know if we have any NYPD listeners,
but like, yeah, like I would imagine in five years
she would have known and yeah, they had sex one time,
but you're right, Like I wonder how long it does
take show.

Speaker 3 (42:20):
The episode risk?

Speaker 2 (42:21):
You know, these people are having HIV for years before
they figure it out.

Speaker 3 (42:26):
Let me, let me, let me google this. Okay, according to.

Speaker 1 (42:31):
The NHS of the UK, but that's just my first
Google result, and I'm sure it's the same everywhere. Most
people infected with HIV experience a short flu like illness
that occurs two to six weeks after infection. After this,
HIV may not cause any symptoms for several years. So
but up to eighty percent of people who are infected
get this flu like symptom, like two six weeks, but

(42:53):
you know, raise temperatures or a throat, body rash, tiredness,
joint pain. I mean, you could honestly think that was
just like a virus or like the flu.

Speaker 3 (42:59):
You know.

Speaker 1 (43:00):
Yeah, those symptoms last one to two weeks, but can
be longer, and it's a sign that your immune system
is putting up a fight against the virus. And like
they said, not for years, but during the time, the
virus remains active and can cause progressive damage to your
immune system. So yeah, but yeah, that's a good question
because it is like a lot of people that are

(43:21):
just sort of like living with no clue.

Speaker 2 (43:24):
Yeah, So yeah, he reassures her that her risk is low,
and she's shocked. She missed this, and he's like, listen,
you're not the first woman to have sex with a
closeted man. She says maybe he didn't know, and Huang's like, okay, babe,
he knew. But also he says sexuality is complicated and
just because he was gay doesn't mean he wasn't attracted
to you. Andy's wife is now running through the halls

(43:45):
looking for Andy. She looks worried. She tells Bunsen that
Andy canceled on lunch and told her to meet him
at SVU. She asks if there was a break in
the case. Huang says by and waves away. Andy isn't
answering his cell. She wants to know if they have
heard from him or anything, and goes, no, but you know,
I'll let you know if I see him. So Craigan
meets Benson and Huang in the spyglass and guess what

(44:07):
in cement room bars is Andy Benson lied to his
wife's face, and Stabler's in there with him and they're
going through files.

Speaker 1 (44:13):
I can't believe Olivia lied to the wife.

Speaker 2 (44:15):
So he's looking through suspects and isn't keen on what's
going on, but Benson is thinking about his wife hardcore
and it's like, fuck, what if Jeff is HIV positive
and Andy might be two? They can't warn her legally,
you know, HIV status is confidential even after death. Stabler
comes out for a moment and they tell him his
wife is there, and he's like, oh, hell, yes, let's

(44:35):
play with that. So it's time to play the wife card.

Speaker 1 (44:37):
Uh oh.

Speaker 3 (44:38):
They hand him a coffee mug. Is that a DNA? Gotcha?

Speaker 2 (44:41):
He gives up on the search and can't think of anyone,
but Stabler's like, listen, it has to be someone that
knew your cases.

Speaker 3 (44:46):
Who can it be?

Speaker 2 (44:47):
But Andy doesn't see the connection, so Stabler brings up
an inside job suggestion. It finally clicks. He's like, oh
you think I did it? He and he asks if
he's a suspect, and Stabler tries to table. Stabler tries
to bully him. He's a lawyer. It's gonna be harder
than your usual gameplay, Stabler. Benson walks in. He says,
why would I kill my friend? And she goes, you

(45:08):
were more than friends. He calls her crazy. She says,
your wife is here, by the way, and he gets stern,
what did you tell Mary Allen dramatic music plays. She
says she didn't say anything yet. He says, don't threaten me.
He gets loud. If you spread these fucked rumors, you're
looking at departmental charges.

Speaker 3 (45:25):
Annie.

Speaker 2 (45:26):
Then he threatens a lawsuit as well. He says, you
are forcing things together. Benson says, okay, easy solution, give
us your DNA. He goes, do you think I'm fucking stupid?
Go fuck yourself. He screams, I wasn't even there. I
had a poker game every Wednesday night. He runs off.
Now we're at Jerome Adam's office. It's another man in
the poker hang, nice office, big chair, rich vibes, frame

(45:46):
photo of his kids.

Speaker 3 (45:48):
He says he was stressed.

Speaker 2 (45:49):
They cut to another man and dreads, who picks up
the story. Stressed about the threats in court and when
they keep pushing both his friends don't like these accusations.
They're like, what's going on, But they ask about the
poker games, the changing locations, and this time it was
at a Brownston and Park slope, the rich office guy's place.
The wife goes to the movies with her friend and

(46:10):
he loves poker Knights. Five to six dudes beers a
rowdy time, no limit. There is a frame at Dread's
place and it's all the men that play and includes.

Speaker 1 (46:19):
The football player.

Speaker 2 (46:20):
So DeShawn is in this poker group, and if they
were all at the game together, why wouldn't Andy say that?
So something is going on and everyone's protecting him. So
what did they have to hide? Finn thinks that they
were all on the down low. Craigan goes down, what
So now we learn about the down low and it's
about black men having sex with other men and they
all have wives and kids and it's just sex. But

(46:43):
they don't think they're gay, like they believe you have
to be a man and being gay is for the whites.
Benson says, even whites have issues being gay, and you
know they're doing crystal meth and he's like, yeah, but
these guys they go home and have like sex with
their wives and they pretend to be straight, and they
all stare at him extra long, and he goes, don't
look at me, I just know stuff, and Finn goes.

Speaker 1 (47:03):
A classic iced tea line. I would say, don't look
at me, I just know stuff. I remember watching this
episode and this being the first time I'd ever heard
of this concept, which we will get into more later,
but like this episode as always educating me. I guess I.

Speaker 2 (47:16):
Don't know what here this is to when I learned
about it, but it was kind of a thing in
Chicago where people from the South Side would come to Boystown,
like everyone kind of talked about that and then do their.

Speaker 1 (47:29):
Gay shit and go back home.

Speaker 2 (47:31):
So yeah, I don't know when I was spending my
time in the streets of Chicago.

Speaker 1 (47:37):
I learned as I was eating it.

Speaker 3 (47:39):
Duncan.

Speaker 1 (47:40):
We were just talking about this at a brunch that
I was at last weekend with a bunch of people
from my hometown and they were like, oh, they were like,
there were so many closeted gay dads in New Canaan,
And I was like, wait, do you really think so?
Like I never knew anybody's dad, like I could never
I could not tell you what any of my friend's
dads looked like.

Speaker 3 (47:56):
I knew all their moms.

Speaker 1 (47:57):
I could draw their mom's faces if I had to,
Like all of them, I knew their moms.

Speaker 3 (48:01):
I never knew the dads.

Speaker 1 (48:01):
The dads were always like at work, and so my
friend was like, oh, I know guys that have come
from the little metro north out to Connecticut to have
sex with married guys out there. Like I was, like,
I just never even put that, you know, in my
mind about my little suburban town.

Speaker 2 (48:17):
Well not only closeted, but your brother's friend, who's the
sex addict therapist, was saying, Yes, of his clients are
like Connecticut, you know, men who ruin their.

Speaker 1 (48:27):
Lives for their you know, yeah, a listener, A listener
shout out.

Speaker 5 (48:32):
To my friend.

Speaker 1 (48:32):
I won't name I won't name him. No, we won't
name butt a shout out.

Speaker 2 (48:36):
So Finn then goes to talk to m a governor,
and he's like, I'll go do that, and he's gonna
connect better than the whiteswell and you know, so he's
got he's got to take charge. And this dude has
McGovern has so much fruit on his counter. He's drinking OJA,
nice place, big shoulders, amazing view, he's divorced, no kids.
He sits and drinks the oj in front of his

(48:56):
gorgeous view, and Finn butters them up like I'm a
football fan, and then insults him with why didn't you
have any endorsement deals? You know, you're so good at ball.
Where's your money? He doesn't like that. He stands up,
what's your problem, man? Finn says, what's your problem? He
turns and they all look at the view, and he goes,
I was an athlete hero. Everyone looked up to me,
and they still do, and I wanted to stay that way.

(49:17):
Finn calls him out, like, yep, that won't happen if
they know you fuck men. He says, yo, get clear, bro,
and then he goes, I'm no f word. He says,
you're on the download, dude, and this saint no poker game.
You guys are having sex with each other. He says,
I can't overcome this. Finn goes, you tell me details
or I will start digging around and talking about these parties.

(49:38):
And he says, I'm not gay. I have relationships with
women and sex with men, and Finn goes, news flash,
you're gay. So dramatic music plays and he says that
the game has been going on for four years. Every
week someone gets, you know, someone gets to take someone
to the bedroom, and it's like nothing ever happened. No condoms,
because if you bring condoms, that means that you're admitting

(50:00):
why you went there. So they asked how Jeff Yorke
is involved, and Jeff fell in love with Andy and
wanted him to leave his wife. So Andy asked Deshan
to get some sense into him, and he looks off.
Andy did it. He didn't mean too. Jeff would have
dragged everyone into a mess. So they go to arrest Andy.
They read him his rights. He takes over reading the
rights because he knows his rights. He is a lawyer.

(50:21):
So he's back in the cement room bars and he's like,
I'm not gay, I wasn't his lover and I did
not kill him. Benson says, listen, the sperm is going
to be a match, and then Shaun c Zerko, you
know lawyer, He goes he can explain that. So I
can't wait to know why the Jew's was in there.
So Andy knew Jeff wanted to talk and had been tense,

(50:42):
so he knew something was up, and he thought it
was about Alvarez, but he said he was in love
with him, and he said he didn't feel the same way,
so he was embarrassed and they both got drunk. He
gave Andy a ride to the poker game since he
couldn't get a cab because of racism, I assume. And
then when they drove by some sex workers, Jeff pulled over.
He wanted to prove his manhood. He says, I went first,

(51:03):
you know, And when the sex worker was finished with me,
I left and I took a cab to Brooklyn, and
Siegeler goes, why didn't you tell me this to start?

Speaker 1 (51:10):
And Shauncey goes, yeah, right, that would have go over well.

Speaker 2 (51:13):
A threesome with a hooker, and he says he blames
himself and he shouldn't have left chef there. Benson goes, yep,
you know you have answers for everything, but you didn't
account for Deshaun talking to him at the hotel coincidence,
and he goes, no, it's probably a business meeting. Stabler
Yell's false. It was a meeting about the murder and
Jeff confessing his love. You didn't want your wife to

(51:34):
know you were on the down low. He's like, I'm
sure he said exactly what you wanted him to say,
so you wouldn't ruin his life. Novak's watching behind the
spyglass and she goes, damn, he's good.

Speaker 1 (51:44):
This wild story might work, and Finn goes, oh, wait
really quickly, really quickly. So what he's saying, Andy is
saying happened is that they pulled over a sex worker
gave hu a bij Andy Andy.

Speaker 3 (51:57):
And that's why his jiz was in that condom.

Speaker 1 (52:00):
Yeah, but then the that still doesn't really make sense
that there's like a perfect lipstick print on it, right,
but whatever, oh yeah, correct, yeah, he but he doesn't
even know that evidence yet, you know what I mean,
Like you thinks.

Speaker 3 (52:11):
He really did it.

Speaker 2 (52:13):
He's a lawyer, and yeah, so, and even Novak's impressed
with him, but Finn thinks the jury is going to
see right through him. But Novak does not think that
family man gets drunk with colleague, wrong place, wrong time.
Finn goes, yeah, but Deshaun will testify, and Novak and
Finn are in his office, and he of course yells,
hell no, he doesn't want to do it. He will
fucking lie and you are not going to mess up

(52:35):
his life. He's going to deny, deny, deny. So Finn
does tell Novac like, yeah, you were off, you idiot.
So whatever, he kicks them out of the office. Now,
what we need proof, always in need of more proof,
I would say, that's in every episode. So they go
to Warner to try to get more proof out of her.
Squeeze any extra info they have. So she ran the
DNA and the dead can speak. The HIV in Jeff's

(52:56):
blood is the same as Andy's, so Andy has HIV two.
It's suggestive that it's like the same same kid, you know,
back and forth, but it's not conclusive.

Speaker 1 (53:05):
There's no numbers, and it's not good enough for a jury.

Speaker 3 (53:08):
So now what.

Speaker 2 (53:09):
Benson walks away, Werner stops her and whispers that she's negative,
and Benson is obviously happy to hear that news. So
Novak and Benson walk into SVU headquarters like what do
we do? Finn walks by them, and WARN's like, uh oh,
she is steaming. Mary Ellen runs up like how do
you what are you doing? How dare you you think
my husband killed our friend? So Benson is like, we

(53:33):
have credible evidence, and she goes, oh, more lies. You
lied to me already asking me questions when you knew
he was a suspect. She is a damn good actress,
and she goes, don't lie to me again, And now
Novak pops in, being messy as hell, and She's like,
your husband is gay and having an affair with jeff Yorke.
She calls Novak sick. She goes, you don't have to
believe me, but for your own sake, get an HIV

(53:53):
test jeff had aids. So Mary Ellen goes go to
hell and runs off. So Novak says she needed to know.
Chauncey disagrees and chase her down a hallway and goes, hey,
this is a complaint to the Disciplinary Committee of the bar,
demanding you be suspended from the practice of law is
so unprofessional, if not criminal.

Speaker 3 (54:13):
The what you did.

Speaker 2 (54:14):
You revealed medical information that's confidential to a client's wife.
And she goes, listen, I want to protect her, but
you know, he thinks that she's trying to humiliate the wife.
And then he says, but don't worry, I'll rip this
up if we can make a deal. So she goes, Lol,
you're blackmailing me while accusing me of ethical issues. He goes,
I'm defending my client. I didn't break the law man

(54:35):
two five years probation. Take it or leave it. She's like,
fuck you, so she walks off. She runs to Marlow
Thomas's office AKA you know Mary Conway Clerical offices and
she's like, damn, you're crazy.

Speaker 3 (54:48):
Novak goes, fuck the law.

Speaker 2 (54:49):
You know, this woman's life is at stake, and Marlow goes, yeah,
but you're screwed, and Novak knows it, and it's like,
you also did it to play games. You didn't just
care about her health. Admit it, and she's like, sure,
I do know that. So Novak goes to the wife
and the wife goes, you shouldn't be here, and Novak
is there to apologize. Novak admits she was wrong and

(55:10):
it wasn't her place to tell her, and she's like,
if I was in your position, I would want someone
to tell me. She says, you ruined my life and
Novak responds, I didn't expose you to HIV Andy did?
She responds, I didn't put Andy's arrest on the front
page and on the TV. I have two children. They're
asking me what their daddy did wrong. What do I
tell them? Novak doesn't know what to even say. You know,

(55:32):
she goes, go talk to your husband and then she cries,
and then Mary Allen goes, how do I tell my kids?
I'm HIV positive? So Novak says sorry again the wife
sighs she doesn't want her girls to suffer.

Speaker 1 (55:46):
Well, wait, I just want to really quickly interject here.
It is wild that the episode retro that we just
did a few episodes ago is like in the same.

Speaker 3 (55:53):
Season as this, it was ten episodes ago.

Speaker 1 (55:56):
And in that episode it was like, it was a
crime for you to not like get your children tested
and not get them treatment. So how is it not
a crime of Andy Abbott to just be HIV positive?

Speaker 3 (56:08):
And like, I guess he.

Speaker 1 (56:09):
Could claim he didn't know, he don't think and didn't Yeah,
he doesn't know, so he can't be so yeah, But
like to me, it's it is almost like a life
saving move of Novak to tell the wife, even though
it's against like bureaucratic privacy laws, because who knows if
he was even planning on telling her if he got
off you know, no, I bet he would take it

(56:32):
to the Yeah.

Speaker 2 (56:33):
But also he's a man, so it's not you know,
another man woman thing. I'll bring up. I was reading
something where it's about widows. It's about Bob Saggett's widow
was writing something and how like men we talk about
this all the time, get married right away. I mean,
their wife can be not dead for even a year,

(56:55):
and the men are remarried marry a friend, like they
need to be with someone, and we're like, oh, yeah,
you know, he needed someone. But with women, she's like,
you could honestly wait five years and it's never enough time.

Speaker 3 (57:08):
And people are.

Speaker 2 (57:09):
So mad when women widows date or find love again.
And she's dating someone and she's like, I talk to
his daughters like I did love my fucking husband. Yeah,
but it's just something I didn't think about. But it's true.
I mean I judged the men pretty harshly when they
marry so fast that it's something I talk about.

Speaker 3 (57:26):
But we are like, oh, thank god, someone will help
with the kids.

Speaker 2 (57:29):
But when women do it, it's like you should be
sad for the rest of your life.

Speaker 3 (57:32):
You yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely double standard.

Speaker 1 (57:35):
Absolutely yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:37):
But you know, Novak is sorry, Like at the end
of the day, Novac is really sorry about the whole situation.

Speaker 3 (57:43):
What she did.

Speaker 2 (57:44):
She knew she was kind of selfish, but like you said,
it is the right thing to tell the wife. Yeah,
I mean, yeah, so the wife's size. She doesn't want
her girls to suffer. So they have a plan. They
go to the prison, Novak and the Wifey go to
see Andy and Chauncey. Chauncey's like, what the fuck, bitch,
you were going way too far. The wife interrupts and says,

(58:05):
I asked her to come. It was my decision. So
Chauncey stands down and Uh Mary Ellen walks over to Andy.
She sits down and holds Andy's hands and says, one
day you picked up a little paintbrush and you painted
a watercolor Christmas card for me. She remembers it like yesterday,
and she fell in love with him that day, and
she still loves him. She says she will love him

(58:27):
till the day she dies, and by the grace of God,
I will live long enough to see your girls grow
up and find their way in life. He's crying listening.
She says, I forgive you. They are both wet eyes.
She can't forgive him, though, if he lets the kids suffer,
you know, He's like, she goes, if you let their
kids and their friends and families be destroyed with a

(58:47):
trial that will drag everyone through the mud.

Speaker 1 (58:50):
I will not forgive you.

Speaker 2 (58:51):
She's asking him, like, Andy, be a man, admit what
you've done, and all he can muster is, I'm so sorry,
and he should.

Speaker 3 (58:59):
Have told her the truth.

Speaker 2 (59:00):
And he's like just very sorry what he did to her,
and she knows he is, and he starts talking. He
wanted me to leave my family. I couldn't. I couldn't
admit I'm gay. We argued and I got so angry
and I killed him. Novak says. Man won seven and
a half to fifteen years, and you alocute, but only
the plea and sentence are on record and the rest

(59:22):
will be sealed. Chauncey, because of that, will drop the
disciplinary committee thing. Chauncey turns and asks Andy, and Andy
nods and says done.

Speaker 3 (59:32):
She ugly cries.

Speaker 1 (59:33):
They hug. She cries into his neck, and that's dick
wolf baby. It's like the word bisexuals never brought up
the whole episode, like no one's ever just like, oh,
I kind of like both, I don't know, it's interesting
like that, well, you know, famously, it's like women are
allowed to be bisexual, I think, but like men, it's
like now if you like, you know, you can't be.

(59:55):
But it's like, you know, our dear friend of the pod,
Robert Brooks Cohen is an out and proud bisexual who
has a podcast about being bisexual and you know, wants
to end the end that stigma. All right, well, thank
you for that detailed recap, Lisa, and now we're going
to get into the true crime, true life, true life phenomenon,

(01:00:16):
whatever you'll call it. I just looked into the concept
of the down low, which became like a super has
an interesting history, and I will say right now, there
is not a lot of current information out about the downloaw.
I don't think it's like as much of a thing anymore,

(01:00:38):
but it had like a cultural moment. So when I'm what,
a lot of my research is from the early two
thousands or mid two thousands, around when this episode came out,
So just you know, a little warning that, like, I
don't think a lot of this is like still holding up.
This is just like what the thoughts were at the
time that this episode came out. So obviously, yeah, an
inversion of low down is the episode is called lowdown.

(01:01:00):
It's an inversion of the term down low, and it
was originally popularized as a as a term just meaning secret,
like you know, keep it on the DL, like by
the way, like we're gonna drink tonight, keep it on
the DL, you know anything, Like I remember saying this
all the time in school and when I was young.
So it was popularized in the nineties by singers like TLC.

Speaker 3 (01:01:19):
And Boo R.

Speaker 1 (01:01:20):
Kelly, and then it morphed into a slang term for
the African American community that refers to Black men who
publicly identify as heterosexual but seek out sexual encounters with men.
Obviously we glean that from the episode. In fact, in
medical research there's even the term down low is used.
Other terms used in the medical research are sexual identity,

(01:01:41):
behavior discordance, dude sex, bud sex, hetero flexible sex, hetero
flexible men, sex between straight men, behaviorally bisexual, non gay,
and heterosexual self presentation. So I just thought those were
like some interesting terms that are also used it medically
to describe this sort of phenomenon. All the research that

(01:02:03):
is about this basically says that, you know, Black culture
is typically hyper masculine, centers masculinity and fatherhood as the
primary concerns of Black men, and so most down low
men identify themselves not as gay or bisexual, but first
and foremost as black. So to them in Black culture,
that equates to being inherently masculine. And also in this culture, homosexuality,

(01:02:25):
as they say in the episode, was historically thought to
be a white man's perversion. But the down low subculture
rejects LGBT culture because they think that LGBT culture is
like white and effeminate.

Speaker 3 (01:02:36):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
So in two thousand and three, there was a big report,
a big article that was called double Lives on the
Download that came out in two thousand and three where
there was like a very long article in New York
Times magazine where the reporter like sort of embedded himself
with DL guys and like learned a little bit about
like where they were coming from and their philosophies and stuff,

(01:02:58):
and not that these men speak for everyone, but one
of the guys he spoke to, who gave the name
rakim Uh to the reporters, said, quote, we know there
are black gay rappers, black gay athletes.

Speaker 3 (01:03:09):
And they're all on the DL.

Speaker 1 (01:03:10):
If you're white, you can come out as openly gay,
skier or actor or whatever. It might hurt you some,
but it's not like if you're black and gay, because
then it's like you've let down the whole black community,
black women, black history, black pride end quote. So that's
a little bit where some of these guys are coming
from with this. So the DL label they felt was
the safest option for them, so they don't risk losing

(01:03:31):
their family or friends or their you know, status in
their communities. And it's more than just being in the closet,
you know, it's different from being in the closet because
these men were actively like dating or marrying women while
maintaining this masculine image. They would obviously meet anonymously. Many
of them were young inner city men who participate in
hyper masculinity or what New York's Time magazine called thug

(01:03:53):
culture quote unquote, So you know a lot of these
guys two yes, But it's also very different from what
is presented in this episode, as these men are all
very successful, they're all very like they're they're educated, they're successful,
they have great jobs, they have families that they like.
A lot of the research suggests that men with that

(01:04:14):
kind of background would be more comfortable coming out and
that it's like this more like inner city guys that
are like more obsessed with like the social hyper masculine
part of it, that were more part of this culture.

Speaker 3 (01:04:28):
But you know, I think the show plays with both.

Speaker 1 (01:04:30):
It's also worth mentioning that the term down low was
eventually co opted and turned into a marketing term in
the gay porn world, which people accuse it of using
that word to sexualize Black and Latino communities, which are
already like sexualized men, I would say, and women. The
DL scene really started to pop off kind of in
the nineties, but the first mainstream outlet to report on

(01:04:52):
it was the La Times in February of two thousand
and one. By two thousand and three, this article that
I mentioned comes out that's like a huge sort of
bombshell about this subculture.

Speaker 3 (01:05:02):
And then by two thousand and four, Oprah's talking about it. Baby.

Speaker 1 (01:05:05):
So by then men, you know, by the two thousands,
men are finding other DL men on websites, internet chatrooms,
private parties like this poker night type of thing, and
special knights at clubs. But then at this also around
this time, the DL phenomenon is starting to worry the
public health sector. Much like in this episode, they feared
that DL men were spreading HIV to their wives and

(01:05:27):
girlfriends because they would be like unknowing of their status. Also,
in two thousand and one, closer to when this episode aired,
the Center for Disease Control the CDC said a third
of young urban Black men who have sex with men
are HIV positive and ninety percent of them are unaware
of their status. So in two thousand and one, that's
like a pretty scary statistic. You know that a third

(01:05:49):
of young of these young men have it and that
most of them don't know. So in two thousand and four, also,
AIDS was the leading cause of death for African Americans
ages twenty five to forty four. Black women accounted for
seventy two percent of all new female AIDS cases. And
it was yeah, and it's really interesting because this medical researcher,

(01:06:09):
Sandra Singleton MacDonald, she had gone down to work at
the CDC in Atlanta in nineteen eighty six and she's
been She showed up being like, I want to research
diseases that affect black people in the South. And they
were like, one of her colleagues was like, you should
look at HIV and AIDS. She was like, no, no, no, no, no,
I said, black people like because HIV and AIDS were
simply like a white gay disease. It's like that's how

(01:06:30):
it had been framed by the public even though this
and that was in eighty six, So fast forward to
like fifteen years down the line, you know, and it's
like a huge, a huge problem for the black community,
and she says Sandra Singleton McDonald says she tried to
warn leaders in the black community and they looked at
her like she was nuts. They told her that's a

(01:06:51):
white problem. And a huge turning point was like five
years later when Magic Johnson revealed his status in the
early nineties, and that's what got a lot of black
men to attention. And they said they were being flooded
with calls of black men being like, how do I
what does this mean?

Speaker 3 (01:07:05):
How do I get tested?

Speaker 1 (01:07:06):
Like so obviously now I think there's more public education
that AIDS and HIV can affect any community, and it
seems that.

Speaker 2 (01:07:15):
We It just reminded me, you know, I was just
thinking how it sucks to be in the closet and
I'll want not you know, have to keep your life
a secret, and how if you don't know or you're
not willing to come to terms, you're not getting tested.
And remind me of something I saw not having to
do with this, But I guess there's a book that's
banned in a lot of places, but it's like a
sex said book for kids. And this little girl took

(01:07:38):
it out from the library and went to her mom
and goes, this is this is what's happening to me.
And it gives kids the words on how to like
express that they're being abused. And her dad was raping her,
oh and now and now he's in prison. And it's like,
so thank god for this book that she was able
to see herself in it and point it to her
mom and be like that that's happening to me. Yeah,

(01:07:58):
And all of these right wing lunatics are trying to
get it banned, and it's like, no, these kids need
this information more than anybody. And it's something I never
thought about. I mean, I think about lots of stuff,
but not in this context where if I get into
an argument or something, I'd be like, well, how do
you want a kid to know what's happening? Like the
secrecy is what allows all this to happen.

Speaker 3 (01:08:18):
I don't know. Yes, I'm glad I saw that story.

Speaker 1 (01:08:22):
Yeah, oh that's heartbreaking, but I'm glad that she was,
Like the book helped her.

Speaker 3 (01:08:27):
That's that the.

Speaker 2 (01:08:28):
Book helps her and that her mom believed her so
fucked did something. That's the little book banning the law
worked and put the dat away. You know, It's like
so many steps had to happen for it to even
you know, to get some sort of justice. But yeah, yeah, crazy, Yeah, totally.

(01:08:48):
So back to AIDS, my bad, back to age AIDS
and HIV. Imagine Johnson what kind of like a hero
because I don't I mean, I wasn't really aware during
this time.

Speaker 3 (01:08:58):
I was probably very little, but people still are obsessed.

Speaker 2 (01:09:02):
With him, Like I'm sure there was jokes, and there's jokes,
like I'm sure you know, I think it was like yeah,
but no one respected him less unless I'm really not
part of that community.

Speaker 1 (01:09:13):
And I think that he was like a late night
punchline probably in the nineties. But I think like now
he's like a trailblazer.

Speaker 3 (01:09:21):
Like the fact that.

Speaker 2 (01:09:21):
Well now people just shut on Magic Johnson because he
has a gay son, you know, who loves makeup.

Speaker 3 (01:09:26):
So that's yeah, yeah, it's like you can be that.

Speaker 2 (01:09:30):
I mean that's really interesting too, where it's like Magic
Johnson is still like seen as straight and masculine and
an athletic hero, and so.

Speaker 1 (01:09:39):
It's like, yeah, I think he when he came out
with his status, he also said, like, I've been cheating
on my wife with other women, and so that's like
where he like he sort of controlled the narrative on that.
I mean, whether that's the truth or not, I have
no fucking idea, but you know, like that's so he
never lost any of the like quote unquote masculinity points
that he's like having, you know, with it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:00):
Would have gotten down so much different. You're right, yeah,
like he wouldn't have. I don't know, it's.

Speaker 3 (01:10:06):
Like it would have been different.

Speaker 1 (01:10:08):
I think if like, let's say the character in this
episode who's a football player who's divorced with no children
suddenly is like IMHIV positive, I feel like the narrative
would have taken a life of its own, you know,
like he knows how it would come out across across.
So anyway, obviously there's a ton more public education that
AIDS and HIV can affect any group, and it's not

(01:10:29):
a white or a black issue obviously, And it seems also,
like I said at the beginning, the download phenomenon, at
least it probably still exists, of course, but it's died
down in terms of being like now, homosexuality I think
is more culturally accepted across the board, and they're safer
sex practices in terms of AIDS and HIV education, people
know to be safer than I think they probably did

(01:10:52):
in the late nineties early two thousands. And there's also
like a flip side to this, like some researchers claim
that white men are on the DL just as much
as black and that research that claims that this is
unique to black culture is just trying to like pathologize
black sexuality and attribute it to the spray of spread
of HIV while overlooking other factors like drug use and
poverty and things that can you know, affect the spread

(01:11:15):
of HIV.

Speaker 3 (01:11:15):
So I also.

Speaker 1 (01:11:17):
Found this opinion piece by a writer in twenty twenty one,
Ryan Lee, who wrote for The Reckoning criticizing the New
York Times magazine piece, saying that it basically created this
image of black gay and bisexual men as quote unquote predatory, duplicitous,
and responsible for alarmingly disproportionate rates of HIV among straight
black women. And he also wrote, quote while white gay

(01:11:39):
and bisexual men were granted victimhood and the narrative about
their lives in the closet. Any black gay man who
was not upfront about his sexual orientation suddenly became an
aide super spreader lying in wait a pathology who's taint
soon splashed onto black openly gay men and ultimately black
men altogether. So I think this, according to this, which

(01:12:00):
is very possibly true, you know, it made black men
out to be predators who are just like, you know,
not caring about their status and spreading aids, while white
men could be doing this just as much. And like,
why are we putting this all? So it's it's just
an interesting flip side, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:12:19):
And so like we just mentioned every white dude and
Connecticut it out cheating on his way, Yeah, I know,
right in the closet.

Speaker 1 (01:12:26):
So that, yeah, I wonder why. And there's white people
who have sated with Yeah, like, there's white people who
have just as much like religious shame over being gay,
probably as they're as as like is equivalent to you know,
this hyper masculine shame that these that men might have.
Other scholars think it's also unfair to paint black culture
as more homophobic than white culture. Went back in the

(01:12:48):
forties and fifties, when anti gay sentiment was at an
all time high, Black society was way cooler with it
than white society was. So is it like really fair
to say, like, oh, well, to be black and gay
so much worse than to be white and gay. I mean, really,
everything you think you fell out of a coconut tree.
Everything exists in the context. You know, like, sure, you're
white growing up in New York City might be very

(01:13:09):
different than your white growing up in like Appalachia or
like a place where you'd be run out of your
family if you told them you were gay. So I
don't know, I'm just like this, everything I've presented today
is just like what was written about in the early
two thousands when this episode came out. I'm not an
anthropologist or a in the you know, psychology field, so

(01:13:30):
I can't say, like where a lot of the like
what is really true or not? But I think that's
what the episode was trying to And and the DL
as a concept was featured on OZ Law and Order
like a ton of different TV shows, Like at this time,
it was like a thing people were talking about. And
I think now, at least if you're sort of on

(01:13:53):
the down low, and cheating on your wife with men
you're using protection, you know, or maybe not sleeping with
your wife. Hopefully people know, uh more save sex practices,
but that's not on that.

Speaker 2 (01:14:07):
But also don't cheat yeaay straight HIV not like don't
cheat yeah yeah yeah yeah, And we don't like cheating
on this podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:14:20):
So another case that popped up as possibly being associated.
It's a very loose but I'll just walk you guys
through it. It is about a high profile lawyer named
Frank Maccaro. He was a very high profilelawyer in Tampa, Florida,
and he was known to be like a hot blooded
Italian guy. He liked to party, he had a temper,
and in nineteen ninety one he presented He represented two guys,

(01:14:43):
Carl Allison and Mark Urbanski. I think the former got
different representation halfway through the trial, but he at first
was representing both of them. At the end was representing
at least Mark or Banski. Orbanski was the son of
a Tampa Tribune executive. Both of these guys were privileged,
like rich dudes, and they were accused of raping a
woman that they met in a downtown nightclub. They were

(01:15:06):
of course eventually both acquitted of the assault, and Vacaro
was always in the news in this area, like he
was always getting.

Speaker 3 (01:15:13):
In bar fights. He hired a bodyguard.

Speaker 1 (01:15:15):
The National Organization for Women picketed him because he was
making this rape victim seem like a bad person, like
he was just being a dick. And eventually he checked
himself into a mental hospital after he sent a letter
to the victim's attorney threatening to do him a Sicilian style.
So after he mails a death threat to his opposing counsel,

(01:15:38):
he checks himself into a mental hospital, and then after
he gets out of the mental hospital, he opens his
law office but quickly shudders it and he never really
got back to law. He basically lived off the proceeds
of other big cases that he had won and a
settlement from a nightclub that he had won where he
got into a fistfighter bar fight in nineteen eighty seven.
So he's just living the Tampa life now as a

(01:16:00):
former lawyer who's like this colorful character in Tampa, you know,
or Florida news. He's also very connected in Tampa and
had all of these like judges and politicians are his friends.
And he used to have these epic parties at his
waterfront home, and then at one point in nineteen ninety two,
he had a big party and he announced to all
of his friends and people that he invited that he

(01:16:22):
was gay, and that was a huge surprise to everybody.
Nobody knew that he was really big into you know,
Italian macho culture, and feared how this would be received.
But a lot of his friends said that the coming
out like really changed him. He was more laid back,
more at peace, and so then in nineteen ninety four
he sold the party house and he bought a townhouse,

(01:16:42):
and he was simplifying his life. He was calming down
on the partying, and he met and started dating Mark W.

Speaker 3 (01:16:48):
Johnson in nineteen ninety three.

Speaker 1 (01:16:50):
They were both hot heads and they had party pasts
and they fought a lot. But Johnson was Vaccaro's like
first boyfriend, like his first love, and he was on
a employed and so people were skeptical like that he
was using Vacaro, but he took care of him, like
had a drink waiting for him at home, and Vacara
liked being taken care of. So they shared the townhouse

(01:17:10):
for a year a little over a year until nineteen
ninety four when Vacaro was shot to death, and Johnson
is the one who did it. But what happened was
I guess a few days earlier they'd fought and apparently
split for the second time. Then the night of the murder,
Johnson went out to a bunch of bars looking for Vacaro,
being like.

Speaker 3 (01:17:30):
Where is he?

Speaker 1 (01:17:31):
But like one of them he they won't even let
him in because he'd been banned for life for previous
violent behavior. So these guys were just like tearing up
Tampa at the time, or they had been a couple
like a year or so earlier. Back at the townhouse
that night, Vacara and Johnson had an argument that escalated
into violence. According to the police, they fought over a
three five seven Magnum revolver, which went off, and Vacara

(01:17:53):
was shot once in the neck and died at the scene.
So I don't think it was a murder per se.
I do think it's seemed like it was an accident
according to what the police said.

Speaker 3 (01:18:02):
Johnson's the one that called nine one one.

Speaker 1 (01:18:04):
He didn't try to cover it up or anything, and
he was charged with an indictment. He was indicted with
first degree premeditated murder, but a jury found him guilty
of manslaughter with a firearm, like they found him guilty
of a lesser charge.

Speaker 3 (01:18:16):
He did appeal.

Speaker 1 (01:18:17):
I found the appeal online, but then I can't figure
out from all the legal mumbo jumbo, like what actually happens,
Like I just found the appeal, so it's he was
given like a few years in jail when he was
originally convicted of manslaughter with a firearm, So it does
sound like it was an accident, but I do think
he should get some jail times. So I guess if
anyone knows how to read legal briefs, please let me
know how this turned out. But I was googling him,

(01:18:38):
there's like nothing more recent about what happened to Mark W.

Speaker 3 (01:18:40):
Johnson after his appeal, So.

Speaker 1 (01:18:42):
Really sort of very lightly related in that it's about
like a lawyer coming out as gay, but really not
a lot else is related. But I thought the guy
being sort of a Italian macho character also coming out
to his community was interesting, and sadly he did he
did not live so to you know, live his truth

(01:19:04):
for longer than a couple of years. And that is
that on that and don't go anywhere because we have
an amazing guest today. Okay, our guest today is a
prolific actor who has been in some major films and

(01:19:26):
TV shows. Most recently, you may have seen him in
Saw X or Saw ten. I don't really know how
we're supposed to say that one, but he was also
in classics like Waiting to Exhale and Soul Food, a
regular on shows like Third Watch and Sons of Anarchy.
You guys all know I'm a Sons of Anarchy head,
but you know him today as the closeted murderer bronx
Ada Andy Abbott. Guys, please enjoy our delightful convo with

(01:19:49):
Michael Beach.

Speaker 5 (01:19:50):
Yay.

Speaker 1 (01:19:51):
Welcome, Michael, Yay.

Speaker 5 (01:19:52):
Michael Beach, Hello, Hello.

Speaker 1 (01:19:55):
We've been trying to get you for a while. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:19:58):
I'm so glad our Ski finally linked up.

Speaker 5 (01:20:02):
I ducked and.

Speaker 8 (01:20:02):
Dodged as long as I This is a season five episode,
just as I would say, S for You is really
like taking flight, and everybody's getting super into the show.

Speaker 1 (01:20:16):
Did you like you had done Law and Order before?
I think you had done regular Law and Order before
you did this.

Speaker 5 (01:20:21):
I did the first one, like, uh, maybe in the
second season of the first original Lawn.

Speaker 3 (01:20:28):
Yeah, so you knew the dick Wolf universe.

Speaker 5 (01:20:31):
Yes, particularly now. Yeah, And I had been in New
York because I was doing a show called Third Watch.
I literally just finished that show and then maybe a
couple of months later I did this episode.

Speaker 1 (01:20:51):
And so, like, they sent you over the script for this,
and what were your thoughts initially.

Speaker 3 (01:20:57):
When you got it?

Speaker 1 (01:20:58):
Were you like, yes, I'm gonna play this closeted gay ada,
Like this is juicy, like what you know?

Speaker 5 (01:21:05):
Yeah, I mean I always look for juicy stuff, to
be honest. I wanted to see Mariska again because I
we we never worked on camera on er, but you know,
we knew each other from that. And I was enjoying
this show, you know, watching as a as a fan,

(01:21:27):
and uh so I was like, oh yeah, yeah, I'd
love to do it, you know, so regardless of what
the you know, what the subject matter was. Uh And
then of course reading it, it was just like icing
on the cake because it was so juicy.

Speaker 3 (01:21:43):
You know, yeah, twists and turns the very end.

Speaker 5 (01:21:48):
Oh yeah, and you.

Speaker 1 (01:21:50):
Have this like powerhouse scene with the woman that plays
your wife, like at the end where like she's like
begging you to let and you just like have this
one like tear that goes down your face.

Speaker 5 (01:22:02):
Oh I got I got the Denzel one tier.

Speaker 3 (01:22:04):
Yeah, oh yeah, you pulled her out.

Speaker 5 (01:22:10):
Well, let me tell you something. She was. She was fantastic,
was very nervous because she was very new and I
don't I can't remember her name, forgive me, but she
hadn't done a lot of TV, so she didn't know
about the camera, about the angles, about whether it's a
close up or not. And even back then, today we

(01:22:32):
shoot with two three four cameras all the time. Back
then it wasn't you know, maybe you did two cameras,
but you still have to worry about the master and
the coverage and the close up stuff like that. Today
it's a lot less of a concern because they almost

(01:22:53):
all shoot at the same time on most shows. But
so she was so nervous about you know, because at
one point I told I remember telling her, oh, don't
worry about it. It's on me, so you don't have
to worry about that. So she started because we were shooting
my side, so she started whispering well for some reason

(01:23:17):
I can't remember, and just after the take, I had
just gently said no you can, you could still, you know,
give it to me, and she was, oh, I'm so sorry.
I said, no, no, no, no problem. It's just it's
it's very you know if you have never done it
or only done it a few times. Because everybody thinks, oh,
I could be an actor. I could just yeah, you

(01:23:38):
just memorize your lines and blah blah blah. But technically
she didn't have much of a clue of what she
was doing. But when she locked in as an actress,
she was phenomenal. I mean I was. I was so
impressed with her, and I just remember or that that

(01:24:01):
particular scene how she really really found whatever she needed
and she just she just hit a home run.

Speaker 7 (01:24:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:24:09):
Her name was Bethany Butler. Bethany Butler.

Speaker 2 (01:24:13):
Do you have any memories from the beginning of your
career when you were that person that like didn't realize
something or just kind of things you look back on
and laugh.

Speaker 5 (01:24:26):
Yeah, I mean, you know, I gotta say, for whatever
reason without patting myself on the back, I don't know,
but it just came to me, you know, because I
remember my first audition and I had nothing on my
resume except for school, right, and so the casting director

(01:24:48):
looked at my resume and I went to Juilliard, and
so she was totally not impressed. Right, it's just the same.

Speaker 3 (01:24:57):
Aren't people impressed with Juilliard?

Speaker 5 (01:25:00):
I think they usually they were back then. I have
no idea about it now. But anyway, she she was
not right, and and I hadn't said any words, so
it wasn't like I came in and I was like, yeah,
I just came from Julia to you know, I didn't
say shit, you know, and she said, okay, listen here

(01:25:20):
in film and TV, we don't we don't do the
big acting and the you know, blah blah blah. And
I hadn't. I hadn't done anything yet, So I don't know.
She just had this she had a foot up her
ass about Juliard, I guess. So I said, okay, that's
that's I get it. I get it, and uh, and

(01:25:44):
you know, we did the scene and she was, you know,
she was like, oh okay, okay, she you know, I
did what she asked. I brought it down and this
and that, and I ended up getting that job, and
so I just kind of felt, I don't know, it

(01:26:06):
just came to me really fast. About how the how
the camera was intimate. You know, it was much more
intimate than what you would normally feel on stage. And
I just started doing In fact, I didn't do much

(01:26:27):
theater for years, and I just jumped into film and
TV and I learned pretty quickly the dudes and the
don'ts and hitting your marks and all of that stuff,
and how important the lighting is and make sure you
don't lean out of your light. And obviously as the

(01:26:48):
years have gone by, a lot of those details have
have aren't as specific because they've opened it up. You know,
the camera can can search for you more. The lightning
is a little more friendly and warm as opposed to
back then when it was like that's your mark, then

(01:27:09):
on your mark, and you can't lean this way, Oh
you can't leave that way.

Speaker 1 (01:27:13):
You know.

Speaker 5 (01:27:14):
It's a lot more forgiving today.

Speaker 1 (01:27:17):
Wait, so you booked your first audition.

Speaker 5 (01:27:20):
I did. I booked my first audition, and it was
the first and only time, thank god. But it was
the first time I got fired from a job as well.
I mean before I even I didn't go to set.
I didn't even make it on the plane. You know.

(01:27:40):
It was one of those things like, oh, we decided
that we're gonna go another way with another look. You know,
as I was at home packing my bag to fly
to Florida. I was in New York, gonna fly to
Florida to shoot this film, and got the call saying,
you know that they were renigging and.

Speaker 3 (01:28:04):
Going another direction.

Speaker 5 (01:28:05):
Going another direction, my first little feel of Hollywood.

Speaker 3 (01:28:13):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 (01:28:14):
Well it didn't stop you because you literally have been
working NonStop for over thirty years.

Speaker 3 (01:28:20):
Thirty five years.

Speaker 5 (01:28:21):
I mean, yeah, it's going to be forty years next year. Yeah,
something like that.

Speaker 3 (01:28:26):
Crazy. Were you a theater kid?

Speaker 1 (01:28:29):
Uh?

Speaker 5 (01:28:29):
No, Actually I didn't start theater till my last year
of high school. And that was because I was I
was a football player who had hopes of playing in college,
had a few decent colleges looking at me. I got
hurt at the beginning or the end of my like

(01:28:53):
the beginning of my junior year, and then that's.

Speaker 6 (01:28:58):
When I long story, I don't know if you want
to hear a long story, but I got Somebody asked
me if I would audition for a play, and I
was like, that's ridiculous.

Speaker 5 (01:29:08):
Why would you ask me that? And I said no
a few times and then I finally said yes, and
I auditioned, and I fell in love. You know, I
did a it was it was the diary of Anne Frank,
you know, about the family hiding out in the Holocaust
during hiding out in Germany during the Holocaust, which was

(01:29:32):
odd for seventeen eighteen year old young black kid, but
I did. And I fell in love with rehearsal and
with exploring and asking all the questions about why this
and why that, and how would you deal with this

(01:29:52):
situation and deal with that? And from that, I just
I auditioned for every play while I was still there.
It's probably about a under a year, and uh, and
I probably did maybe four or five plays, one musical
and which and I never sang before either, so that

(01:30:15):
was funny.

Speaker 4 (01:30:16):
Uh.

Speaker 5 (01:30:17):
And then and then auditioned for the theater schools and
and got into them and was told I should go
to Juilliard and I said, Okay, that's so cool and
way less concussions, I would say, with that sway way less,
way less.

Speaker 3 (01:30:37):
You have played like just like browsing through your thing.
You've played in this year an eighty A.

Speaker 1 (01:30:43):
But and you've played like a ton of cops, lawyers,
a f b I agent. Yeah, you're like a big
law enforcement guy, do you love? But then also I'm
a huge Sons of Anarchy fan where I know you
from as well. So what's your what's your? It's kind
of a like, do you prefer good guys or bad guys?
But like, is are the bad guys so much more

(01:31:05):
fun to play? That's what most people tell us, But.

Speaker 5 (01:31:07):
I think it's true because they're more complicated, you know,
they have more meat to play with, you know, more grit,
and you know, without in my opinion, you never see
yourself as good or bad. You know you just you you.
You have something you want and you're going for that

(01:31:29):
right and then you have all your obstacles and you
have the actions the way in which you go about
getting what you want. And that's kind of that's why
people either see you as good or bad because of
the actions you take, in my opinion, and it's just
usually more fun when the person has more obstacles to

(01:31:55):
deal with. And I think as a good guy, you
know you just you, you know you, I've gotta say this,
so I've got to do that, and it's it's can
be a little boring sometimes, you know, so, I mean
it's always great if you can get a good guy

(01:32:16):
who you know, has has some negative qualities.

Speaker 1 (01:32:22):
You know, I think this guy seems like he was
a good guy right up until he killed someone, like
the guy you play in this episode.

Speaker 9 (01:32:31):
You know.

Speaker 5 (01:32:32):
Yeah, that's kind of that kind of changes things when
you kill somebody.

Speaker 1 (01:32:35):
Yeah, yeah, that just crime of passion. Though, besides that,
he seems like a good dad. You know, he's got
a cute little kid. Wait, I have to ask you
about another project that you're doing that just got the
portrailer just came out.

Speaker 3 (01:32:49):
You're going to be in the Perfect Couple.

Speaker 1 (01:32:51):
Yes, Yes, we interviewed We interviewed the showrunner Jenna Lemia.

Speaker 5 (01:32:57):
On our own pod.

Speaker 1 (01:32:58):
Yeah yeah, yeah, Meghan Fahi on Yes her episode of
s view is.

Speaker 3 (01:33:05):
I mean, she's like phenomenal.

Speaker 1 (01:33:06):
But but like, yeah, this feels like it's going to
be like the new hot family drama like water Polar.

Speaker 3 (01:33:16):
Show that everyone's going to be talking about.

Speaker 5 (01:33:18):
Yeah, it's just it's a limited series. It's only six episodes.

Speaker 3 (01:33:21):
Yeah, but you're in all six. So what's your character?

Speaker 5 (01:33:24):
Oh yeah, yeah, well I'm I'm the chief of police, okay,
and so I'm the one investigating. There's a murder, and
I'm the one we know. I think it's an accidental drowning,
but there's basically a murder, and everyone in the show

(01:33:46):
is a suspect, and and so I am investigating and
questioning everyone trying to find out who the murderer is.

Speaker 1 (01:33:56):
And it's a family that has all these secrets, right,
It's like this.

Speaker 5 (01:34:00):
Very wealthy Nantucket family. Nicole Kidman is the is the mom,
and leav Schreibers the dad, and and then they have
their kids and there's a there's a wedding going on
or the day the wedding is happening, somebody is yea,

(01:34:20):
and then the whole show is about trying to figure
out who that person is.

Speaker 1 (01:34:27):
I can't wait to see it. And the coda Fannings
in this.

Speaker 5 (01:34:31):
Yeah, Kota Fanning, Yeah, it's got it. It's a great cast.
It's got like a really strong group of young actors
who are phenomenal.

Speaker 3 (01:34:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:34:43):
Well yeah, Kara texted me, yeah, to remind me because
when we interviewed the writer the Writer's Show, she was like,
I'm kind of working on something, like I'm trying to
write this thing.

Speaker 3 (01:34:56):
And then to see the trailer.

Speaker 1 (01:34:57):
That was because we interviewed her like a couple of
years ago, like Pandemic was like winding down, but she'd
been kind of like, you know, working on this adaptation
of like a beach Read. And then I saw the
commercial and I was like, this sounds familiar. And then
when I was look, hey, you're on IMDb, I was like, oh,
and we're talking to Michael be like right, all as
the trailers coming out, we're getting all this all this

(01:35:18):
perfect couple.

Speaker 2 (01:35:18):
Goss, this is awesome. Obviously you were excited to see Marishka.
Did you were you? Did you have any memories with
either Iced Tea or Christopher Maloney or just any memories
from the set.

Speaker 5 (01:35:31):
No, just you know, iced Ty and I talked a
little bit, not much, and I remember having fun with
Mariska and Chris because you know, it was one of
those things where and they're very cool with their guest stars.
That show is very cool with their guest stars. But

(01:35:52):
a lot of times when guest stars come on and
they mess up something or you know, and I I
just know this from when they come on shows I've
been regulars on that. You know, this is why you
really have to you have to kind of help no
matter what, you gotta kind of help guests along, right,

(01:36:15):
because they're nervous. You know. Obviously if you're very new,
you could be nervous, but even if a seasoned person
can be nervous coming on a big show. And oftentimes guests,
especially if they're the main guest or you know, one
or two of the main guests, they have a lot
of stuff to do because it's their story that you're

(01:36:38):
trying to pick apart, right, So I just remember them,
you know, whenever you flub on the line, like I have.
If we're doing a walk and talk, so the the
guy's got a steady cam on his back and they're
either pulling you so they're in front of you, or
they're pushing you so they're following you. Right. In this

(01:37:00):
particular case, I had a lot of the dialogue and
they're they're pushing us, so they're behind us, and I'm
in the front and Mariska and Crista behind me and
the camera's following us, and I'm talking. I'm like, yeah,

(01:37:20):
blah blah blah, I'm grabbing shit here, grabbing shit there,
talk talk talk, And I just remember, uh, flubbing on
my lines, but instead of talking, instead of stopping, I
just said some ship. And then Mariska came in with
her line and Chris came in, and then we were

(01:37:41):
able to just pick it, pick up and keep going
and you know, and and so after the after the take,
you know, Mariska and Chris are like, man, it's so
good to work with somebody who knows that you just
keep going, you know, especially for the shot right because
if they were pulling us, it's different because now my

(01:38:04):
face is on camera, and so if I mess up
and it's and it's really noticeable, you can't cut into
that because because the because of the movement of the camera,
you know, and but they're not, so you can just
keep going and it's still usable footage, you know. So

(01:38:26):
stuff like that where you know, I mean, that's one
of the things I remember. But they you know, just
how it's so fun to be able to come into
another persons show and you know, just just feel good
and be accepted and go, oh, well we we.

Speaker 7 (01:38:49):
We appreciate you being here and and you know, bringing
whatever whatever skill set I have and stuff like that,
and a few few things like that with the with
with her and Chris that's so.

Speaker 3 (01:39:03):
I'm so glad you talked about it.

Speaker 2 (01:39:05):
The first note on my page before it says walk
In talks because he looked you were like carrying boxes,
there were sheets, you were going from one room to
the hallway, and it was yeah, it was noticing.

Speaker 5 (01:39:18):
It's probably it's probably that scene, Yeah, in my office.
I think you mentioned.

Speaker 2 (01:39:25):
Even if you're seasoned, sometimes being a guest star on
a show, you do get like nervous. Do you remember
any in particular that you were more nervous than others
or anything like that.

Speaker 5 (01:39:37):
I'm always nervous, to be honest with you. Yeah, the
nerves don't go away. You just learn how to fenagle
them a little better, you know. But in general, I'm
always I like to prepare my ass off because you
never know. A lot of times you just don't know,

(01:39:58):
especially if you don't know the act or but believe
it or not, there are times when the main cast
or some of the main casts are not warm and
friendly and inviting, and they don't care what you've done
or haven't done, or that you're here on this show

(01:40:19):
or whatever, and maybe they're having a bad day or whatever.
Who knows, So you just have to be ready. You
have to be prepared, and so I make it a
I make it a habit to particularly on my first
day of a show when I'm if I'm doing a recurring,

(01:40:41):
I don't usually anymore do like a one episode thing,
but I will. I don't know, it depends, but in general,
like I do large recurrings or regular but if it's
a show I really like and say, oh yeah, yeah,
let's go on that. But I gotta be ready. I
gotta be prepared because just by the nature of this business,

(01:41:06):
something is going to happen. Yeah, and it's gonna pull
your attention or it's gonna you know, the main guy
is late and you have less time to do the
scene and whatever. You know, there's noise there. You know,
the sets are run differently, blah blah blah. So if

(01:41:28):
you have a lot of dialogue or something deep or heavy,
it's just smart to be ready so that you don't
get thrown by either a small thing or a multitude
of small things or something big. You know. So I'm

(01:41:50):
I'm yeah, I haven't gotten over nervousness. I think I
deal with it well, but I still have it. I
still feel it, you know, Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:42:04):
It's somebody has to like send a memo to like
all the number one on all the call sheets and
be like, if you just act like Murushka Hargete, you're
gonna be on for twenty five seasons, you know exactly.

Speaker 5 (01:42:17):
So it really does it really does matter, not just
to guess people, but if you know, I've been on
shows where you know, let's say there's eight regulars, right,
and so the crew either knows they're going to have
a good day or a bad day based on whatever number,

(01:42:38):
because you know, the number one guy two, three on
the call sheet, right, the call sheet lists all the
actors and and and in order, and so they're really
known as number one or two or four or five
or whatever. And so if you know, if you're on
the crew and you know, like number five has three

(01:43:00):
scenes today and that person never knows their lines or
doesn't hit their marks or is always complaining about the
writing or whatever it is, so you know the crew,
so obviously the guest actor is gonna be in for
a little trouble, but the crew knows, oh shit, okay,

(01:43:22):
so what could have been a ten hour day is
now going to be a thirteen hour day. You know,
or if it's a number two and they know Number
two knows their lines. They you know that they're going
to be friendly and warm and da da da. So
we're doing it. We're doing a ten hour day, maybe
a nine hour day, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:43:44):
And that trickles down to everybody's happiness exactly.

Speaker 5 (01:43:47):
That's the whole point, right, And it's like, why are
we You know, if you have problems with the script
or the scenes or whatever, and especially if you're a regular,
you need to deal with that shit before you come
to the set, not when you get to the set,
because now you're wasting everybody's time, and you can actually

(01:44:09):
have some discussion and some time to figure it out
and work it out so that you come to the
set happy because you're like, oh, I understand this, I
understand that, and I wanted to try this, and I
thought this line could be and you and you worked
it out with the writers before you came to set,

(01:44:29):
and so now things can move. But if you just
come to the set to complain about that, you just
wasted everybody's time.

Speaker 1 (01:44:38):
Oh I bet you could really name names. One hundred
and seventy seventy credits. You could really name some names
I'd love to hear it. I feel like you've dropped
a lot of lessons for everyone listening. Yeah, really insightful stuff.

Speaker 5 (01:44:53):
Well, I love, I love, I love what I do.
I really do. I mean, I really enjoy it. I
feel I feel privileged to be able to still be
doing it, and it's yeah, I'm I'm definitely grateful.

Speaker 1 (01:45:11):
Yeah, and your career shows it. I know this has
all been amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:45:16):
Thank you, and we can't wait to watch you know,
the perfect, perfect.

Speaker 9 (01:45:20):
Couple, perfect couple, perfect cuple and don't forget about you
know right now still Mayor of Kingstown is on Paramount Plus.

Speaker 5 (01:45:31):
We have I think three more episodes left and that's all.
That's a blast. That was a great show to be on. Yeah,
and also on Paramount Plus. I think The Perfect Couple
comes out September fifth on Netflix, and then on September fifteen,

(01:45:53):
season two of Tulsa king with Sliced Alone, which I
did season one in season two, and that that comes
out on Paramount Plus as well.

Speaker 1 (01:46:05):
So got so many, so many irons in the fire, Michael,
I'm so glad that our schedules finally lined up. I'm
so glad you could take the time, we really really
appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (01:46:19):
I was obsessed with him inspiring as.

Speaker 2 (01:46:21):
Fuck, so great, so great, what a great stuff. And
I actually brought him up to you know, I've been
talking about him. I really liked him, but I brought
him up to Clark and he is here. He knew exactly,
and we started doing impressions of him, like he is
an icon and a hero, and it just felt like,
I just feel special we get to talk to such

(01:46:42):
great people like that.

Speaker 1 (01:46:43):
Yeah, totally, he was great and he is somebody that
we like. We had it said and then it got
moved and then like, so we're just happy that our
everybody was able to be patient and wait for it
to come together so we could talk to him.

Speaker 2 (01:46:54):
But he was I just felt like I knew that
Walk and Talk was special, and then him bringing it
up like that, that meant a lot to me because
it looked hard.

Speaker 3 (01:47:06):
It looked hard. It was hard, a hard.

Speaker 1 (01:47:07):
One, but looked hard. SVU is like walk and Talk
like boot camp. For like, if you want to later
go be on an Aaron Sorkin show, probably you like
have to be in an SVU and do it walk
and Talk and then you can be in one of
his shows. But damn, I mean, we've been doing it
feels like a lot of AIDS related content lately, because

(01:47:28):
the show really did tackle a lot of AIDS related
content because it came about in the late nineties, and
I think it was just like it. I mean, it
still is obviously an important topic of conversation, but back
in the I don't know, there was just more panic
around it, and then in the late nineties and the
two thousands, and I think the show definitely mined a

(01:47:49):
lot of that, but also interesting, It was interesting to
read about this whole down low thing because I just
don't know if it's real or not, you know what
I mean. Like, I think it was definitely a real
thing that this guy like reported on, but like reporters
are always like putting spins on it.

Speaker 3 (01:48:08):
And Oprah talked to like a guy who wrote a
whole book.

Speaker 1 (01:48:10):
About this, you know, And so I think it is real,
But what is you know, the coconut tree?

Speaker 3 (01:48:16):
What is the context of what was happening around?

Speaker 1 (01:48:18):
Are we trying to paint black people as like HIV
predator super spreadators in this situation?

Speaker 3 (01:48:24):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:48:25):
That's why I'm kind of hesitant to be like, Oh,
this is an actual phenomenon that was happening.

Speaker 2 (01:48:28):
No, this is this is a thing with straight men period.
Like the Connecticut they just the Connecticut men just have
a different name for it, like this is just you know,
I told you that this is what I would see
in Chicago, where it's you know, they're calling it the
down low and they have their own kind of homophobia
to deal with as a culture, and then we have

(01:48:50):
our own and I don't know what it's called when
all the straight Connecticut daddies come to New York to
get their dick sucked.

Speaker 3 (01:48:56):
Well, you know what.

Speaker 1 (01:48:57):
I was just talking to a friend recently at a
brunch with a bunch of people that I know from Connecticut,
and they were like, oh, I know people who guys
come out to Connecticut for that. They come out like
a guest house. Okay, yeah, I don't know what where's happening,
what's going on? But because we were talking about it,
we went to high school together in a Connecticut town.

(01:49:18):
We're like, oh, do you think like a lot of
the there were any like closeted dads like where we
And my friend was like, oh, I know exactly who
the closeted dads were like I could tell you like
this one girl was saying that. I was like, no way,
and I was saying, oh for me, the dads were
just invisible growing up, Like I never met any dads.

Speaker 3 (01:49:34):
I only met moms. But but like.

Speaker 1 (01:49:37):
Uh yeah, and my friend who is a gay guy,
I was like, I know guys who go out on
Metro North for a little you know, a little a
little straight daddy.

Speaker 3 (01:49:47):
How's it going.

Speaker 1 (01:49:48):
Yeah, But I don't think it's spun it like the
black community are AIDS spreaders.

Speaker 2 (01:49:53):
I think it's like, you know, denial. They don't even
think they're gay. Like but also so like it just
seems silly, like I'm not going to bring condoms because
then you're admitting what you're doing.

Speaker 1 (01:50:06):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:50:06):
It's like so much shame and swirling around in that.
Like I don't think he thought he gave it to
his wife, you know, I don't think he didn't tell
her on purpose. Like I don't think it's it's not
like that other episode that we covered the rooftop where
the guy was purposely infecting young girls with AIDS.

Speaker 3 (01:50:25):
It's a couple of episodes like that.

Speaker 1 (01:50:28):
I feel like there's another one where it's like a
white guy doing it.

Speaker 2 (01:50:33):
Oh yeah, I mean spreading aids is uh sees no color.

Speaker 3 (01:50:37):
Anyone can do that, anyone, Yes, yes, But.

Speaker 1 (01:50:42):
I think it's a real thing. I think it's all
not fair.

Speaker 2 (01:50:46):
People have to hide and not be who they are
and do all these weird games and kill their friends. Also,
if you're going to set up someone, you got to
smear the lipstick on that condom, Like that is a
lesson for sure. That God, you just you think you
know it all and it's like this one that that
to me was.

Speaker 1 (01:51:04):
The ringer for me, Like I know that I would
be like setting up a crime that I've just committed.
I'd be like setting it up. Then I'm like asleep
two days later and I wake up in the middle.
Then eyes fly open and I'm like, I didn't see
lipstick on the condom, Like I know, I would like
remember that later, you know. It's like you just remember
that one little thing we were.

Speaker 2 (01:51:20):
Like fuck like so well, I'm like fighting every urge
right now. So I have this E six thousand glue
and it's like very intense glue.

Speaker 3 (01:51:31):
Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (01:51:31):
My friend was telling me about that yesterday she said
that like shit like literally causes like birth defects and
you have to like use it outside. She's like, this
shit's like we were talking about super glue, and I
was like, oh my god, I use superglue so much
to fix all the shit that my kids break, and
she goes, oh, I use the E six thousand or whatever.

Speaker 3 (01:51:48):
But it's like it's like bad for you. She said,
maybe it's different. Is that like a super super super
glue or.

Speaker 2 (01:51:55):
Is that just as like flexible I put it. No,
it's because my handle on my fridge broke and I
put it on there too. Y. It's a flexible industrial
strength adhesive.

Speaker 1 (01:52:05):
She said. It will literally glue like glass to metal.
Like it's like really really like fucking hardcore. Yeah, no,
I love it. It just takes long time to dry.

Speaker 2 (01:52:14):
But I've been picking on the like what is this
metal tip called on like this part and all it
had all those dried glues, So I've been having a
fun time like trying to pick off the thick layers
of it. And I am holding it and playing with
it right now, and I obviously want to put it
into my candle and burn it, but I think that
would be scary and I'm not going to That's what

(01:52:35):
I'm talking about it because I just I had a
vision of me doing it and then you guys just
seeing like ah explosion and.

Speaker 1 (01:52:41):
The glass well like and my friend like just told
me it's like toxic and bad for you.

Speaker 3 (01:52:46):
So I don't think you should be burning in your
own I know not to.

Speaker 1 (01:52:50):
I'm just telling you the arge, yes, yes, the odd
natural urge to want to burn a toxic chemical in
your candle. I get it.

Speaker 3 (01:52:57):
I get it anyway with this, I just like love
this glue. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:53:03):
I can't believe it says that toxic, but I can
believe it. I can't believe it.

Speaker 1 (01:53:08):
I mean, please, what's not toxic these days? Okay, let's
move on. Huh to what would sister Peg do?

Speaker 3 (01:53:14):
Yes? Yes, okay.

Speaker 1 (01:53:16):
This is our weekly segment where we direct you towards
an organization.

Speaker 3 (01:53:20):
Or a blog post.

Speaker 1 (01:53:23):
I always say blog posts, Like what am I like
living in tumbler world of two thousand and three? You
saying blog posts is like when I say nightclubbing. Yes, totally,
totally I'm going to go blog post in a nightclub.
But it's you know, we just give you more information
about what we talked about today, or send you to
an organization that we'll have more information where you can donate,

(01:53:44):
read more, et cetera. And I wanted to point you
guys to the National Black Justice Collective, which we first
came to know about through a queen on drag Race
called Angeria who we love Injuria?

Speaker 3 (01:53:57):
What is it Injeria?

Speaker 1 (01:53:58):
Paris some Michaels van Michaels, that's right, And it's a
civil rights organization dedicated to the empowerment of black LGBTQ
plus people, including people living with HIV AIDS, through coalition building,
federal policy change, research, and education. Their mission is to
end racism, homophobia, and LGBTQ plus bias and stigma. For
more information on how you can get involved and take

(01:54:20):
action with this group, head over to NBJC dot org.
And as always, that will be in our show notes
that will be shared as a story the day this
episode comes out and then saved forever in our WWSPD highlights.

Speaker 3 (01:54:34):
Damn.

Speaker 2 (01:54:34):
Thank you so much for that. And if you'd like
to continue on this journey with us, which you better,
We're going to be doing Shattered next week from season eleven,
episode twenty four get with it or obsessed with everyone,
and thanks and hopefully it didn't say anything too crazy,
because I do feel delirious.

Speaker 1 (01:54:55):
Talk to you later, guys, bye e.

Speaker 2 (01:55:06):
That's Messed Up as an Exactly Right production.

Speaker 1 (01:55:08):
If you have compliments you'd like to give us, or
episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email
it That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com.

Speaker 2 (01:55:16):
Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod
and on Twitter at messed Up Pod, and follow us
personally at Kara Klank and.

Speaker 1 (01:55:24):
At glitter Cheese. As always, please see our show notes
for sources and more information.

Speaker 2 (01:55:29):
Thank you so much to our senior producer Casey O'Brien
and our associate producer Christina Chamberlain, and to our.

Speaker 1 (01:55:36):
Mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cottner, and.

Speaker 2 (01:55:39):
To Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly gen
Andrews for our artwork.

Speaker 1 (01:55:43):
Thank you to our executive producers Georgia hard Start, Karen Kilgareff,
Daniel Kramer and everybody at Exactly Right Media dot dum

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Liza Treyger

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