Man Up & Man Down w/ Philip Winchester

Today, Kara and Liza discuss two SVU episodes “Man Up” and “Man Down” (Season 20, Episodes 1 & 2). They also cover multiple school shootings and interview the legendary Philip Winchester, otherwise known as ADA Peter Stone.

SOURCES:
The New York Times 1
The New York Times 2
The New York Times 3
The United States Attorney’s Office
WPSD
WKMS
Expert Institute
KFVS
CBS 12
NBC News
NPR

WHAT WOULD SISTER PEG DO:
How to Address Toxic Masculinity With Boys

Next week’s episode will be “Nocturne” (Season 1, Episode 21). 

Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3yb7hqu

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Of the law and Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.

Speaker 3 (00:09):
These are our stories.

Speaker 4 (00:10):
Done done.

Speaker 3 (00:27):
Hello, welcome back to That's Messed Up.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
I'm Kara and I'm Lisa, and here we talk about
SVU True Crime. We have celeb guests today. As a
real barn burner totally. That's a saying I know from
big business, but I actually am here to confront Kara
and Casey. Uh oh, yeah, that's what we're starting with.
I got cards, Yeah, yeah, that's the cards. I got

(00:52):
a lot of dms that you guys are gaslighting me
that of course I've mentioned it, and that you're gas lighters.

Speaker 3 (01:00):
Cue the Dixie Chicks.

Speaker 2 (01:01):
No.

Speaker 3 (01:01):
A couple people a gasler.

Speaker 1 (01:05):
A couple of people said, wait, I don't remember Lisa
talking about the cards either, And I've been a Day
one listener and.

Speaker 3 (01:11):
I was like, what is happening is there?

Speaker 1 (01:14):
Like like, I'm sorry, as you talked about it more,
I was like, I do remember something about this.

Speaker 3 (01:20):
But then when you did say, I go, when did
you start this?

Speaker 1 (01:23):
You go December? It had only been six months. It
wasn't like we've been talking about it for years.

Speaker 3 (01:29):
I just what do you have to say.

Speaker 5 (01:31):
I'm just I'm shocked to hear this information. You know,
I listen intently to every single yes.

Speaker 3 (01:37):
And he listened over again.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
He has to cut out all of our arms and
beeps and bops and boobs.

Speaker 3 (01:41):
He listened so much.

Speaker 5 (01:42):
You know, I guess Lisa, she just has so many passions.
It's just hard to keep them all documented in my brain.

Speaker 6 (01:48):
You know, it's hard.

Speaker 3 (01:49):
Apologize. I'm sorry, I apologize.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
Wait wait, can I tell you we got a fun
dm we somebody one of our listeners called the doom
Wa pod cast and talked about us on the Desmois
podcast that we got tea about Christopher Maloney being kind
of hard to work with.

Speaker 3 (02:08):
Oh my god, we're on demoit.

Speaker 1 (02:10):
Yeah, the episode the Desmois episode podcast episode from last
week or stuthing like, well, I don't know when it'll
be two weeks old now when this episode comes out,
but it's the Kylie Jenner Timothy Shalomet episode that's in
the last couple of their episodes, and it's around the
fifty two minute mark. Somebody called it and said, well,
I listened to the That's Messed Up podcast and she

(02:31):
shouts out that that's our podcast and says well.

Speaker 3 (02:33):
Like and then the Dumoi girl was like, yeah, you're giving.

Speaker 1 (02:35):
Me the tea here, like, because I think the girl
was calling to be like, do you have any other
has anyone ever also told you this? And she was like, no,
you're giving me the tea here, like I had not
heard that from anybody else.

Speaker 2 (02:45):
Wow, this is huge my Yeah, I have some friends
that are gonna.

Speaker 3 (02:48):
Be really excited about that. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:50):
And another friend just texted me yesterday was like, you
know you're on DEMI right, and I was like, yes,
I thought I texted you about it.

Speaker 3 (02:55):
I'm sorry I forgot to tell you. No, it's so excited. Yeah.
But so yeah, we're a little des Mois crossover. But wow.

Speaker 2 (03:04):
Speaking of Timothy and Kylie though, you know they went
to O Mary, o'mary great at the Tony's Congratulations, Congratulations
the director one as well, I don't know him, Sam
Pinkleton or Pinkton something like that.

Speaker 3 (03:16):
Yes, he won as well, and it becomes her one
like a stage.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
Which deserved. The costumes were incredible. I do wish Audra
McDonald won and not a trumper.

Speaker 3 (03:29):
But hey, what are you gonna do? What are you
gonna do? But I heard I'm gonna go to Boop.

Speaker 2 (03:34):
I'm going to Boop Boop the musical it's about Betty Boop.

Speaker 3 (03:38):
And people were telling me the it's like a younger actress.

Speaker 2 (03:41):
Obviously it's Betty Boop, that she is like an Audre
in the making, that she is beyond that she was
the face like also a favorite of the theater. Like
people say she is beyond and so I'm gonna try
to go see that.

Speaker 3 (03:52):
As we get your butt to Boop.

Speaker 1 (03:55):
I was seeing a lot of hate about Nicole, people
saying that in her acceptance speach she was like acting
and not like really crying, but like kind of pretending
she was crying.

Speaker 3 (04:05):
But the woman's fifty and she's looking good. Nicoles like
fifty dude. Oh the Pussycat dolls.

Speaker 2 (04:13):
Okay, yeah, I mean that was what two thousand, Yeah, yeah,
I mean I guess that makes sense. I just didn't know. Yeah, listen,
I guess it was the most like streamed and watched
Tony Cynthia Revo fuck yeah, Like she didn't have to
host the tonys.

Speaker 3 (04:27):
No, and then what I mean that's cool?

Speaker 2 (04:28):
Yeah, and a couple of beat George Clooney, like, that's
so cool.

Speaker 1 (04:34):
We and we recognized a couple of people that we
know in the opening sketch, Drew Drogi and a legend
of La Comedy and Tim Murray, who's so funny.

Speaker 2 (04:43):
I think, yes, Yeah, it was exciting. I feel like
theater had an amazing year, like cool stuff. Yeah, I
like succession girl, I should have seen that. I should
have there a snook.

Speaker 1 (04:56):
Yeah that I didn't know the one that won the
musical and was like best Musical, right, Like I didn't.

Speaker 3 (05:05):
Know about those. I guess a robot. It's like a
robot one.

Speaker 2 (05:08):
I don't know it's about Oh, it's about two discarded.

Speaker 3 (05:11):
Robots like singing along.

Speaker 2 (05:14):
But I did see that a Glee person has one
of Tony in the past four years.

Speaker 1 (05:20):
Every year in the past four years, somebody from Glee
has won a Tony. Interesting, they got to keep up
the Glee streak. Yeah, Darren Chris was the one this year. Yeah,
I loved, I loved Wait what did they ask Oh,
they asked cole in a in an interview like on
The Red carpet. I'm sure you've seen it. They were like,
what did you think when you read the Patty article?

(05:42):
And they were like, I don't know how to read.
It was so like Mary Todd Lincoln coated. And then
they go, I actually just think it should.

Speaker 3 (05:52):
Be left up to the states. Yeah, I think it
should be left up to the states.

Speaker 1 (05:55):
It was so funny, and it was just like you
could tell they were improvising and just so, oh, there
are a talent. There are a talent of a generation.
And Jeff yourself was there with coal.

Speaker 3 (06:05):
It was it was cool. Yeah, it was like a
it's exciting.

Speaker 2 (06:10):
I didn't watch the whole thing, you know, I've just
been putting pieces together, but it was a thrilling one.

Speaker 3 (06:16):
And all of you, I'd like you to know.

Speaker 2 (06:18):
I'm I'm I'm coming to you live from Mexico, outside
of Yes, outside of Guadalajara, beaming in from Mexico.

Speaker 3 (06:27):
And my mom's eightieth birthday.

Speaker 1 (06:30):
This episode comes out the day after my mom's birthday,
and she's really right behind your mom.

Speaker 2 (06:37):
Pretty pretty soon I have so I got there's a
store I love in my neighborhood. It's mostly house stores,
but they have some like costume jewelry, and some of
it's gold plated because my mom doesn't do fake shit.
But I found this necklace. It was a little kookie,
but it was like the pendant was a thing of grapes.
It was like purple and green, but it was like grapes,
a bushel of a bush. What is it called, not

(06:57):
a bushel, a bunch of grapes whatever, Yeah, with a
gold chain. And I was like, we'll see. I'm like,
I really like I think she'll like it. Even though
it's a little cartoony with the grapes. The bitch comes
out of her bedroom wearing all purple for her birthday dinner.

Speaker 3 (07:09):
I couldn't believe it. I could not believe it.

Speaker 2 (07:11):
I go, I think I'm gonna do gifts before dinner
and a grape nick and love it. She loved it
and she put it on perfect. It was really exciting.
We played a lot of card games, backgammon. It's it's
it's a slower way of life here, and that's been
really nice. But like no one's in a rush to
pay the bill. It's probably very European vibes, like yeah,

(07:35):
everyone's kind of lounging, mosying around. We went, my sister
and I buy ourselves once have Margarita's by the lake
and it's just people with their families on a Sunday
with horses on horses, like riding a horse, chill through
like the city with a beer, just on the lake
with their families.

Speaker 3 (07:53):
Awesome.

Speaker 2 (07:54):
And dog culture is cool here, Like dogs are running around,
but it's like they mostly have callers, but like you
can bring your dog anywhere, and I guess it's kind
of the States, but like the dog culture.

Speaker 3 (08:04):
Is cool here. Yeah, like you can cut.

Speaker 2 (08:08):
Like there was like a stray dog that walked into
a cafe we were in and no one was like,
no one bad it than I. But my parents are
eighty and eighty seven, and yeah they walk slow. It's like, yeah,
a real test of patients, and you know, lucky to
have them, of course. But my dad has a walking
stick and it's like a roughieky stick. It's like giant
and wood and it's taller than him and he takes

(08:28):
it everywhere.

Speaker 1 (08:30):
But yeah, he's getting my mom to the ice cream
place from my house and it was I think it
was her last long walk.

Speaker 3 (08:36):
I don't think she's gonna try anything like that again.

Speaker 2 (08:39):
But I got to give a shout out to my
sister because they were here for like ten days before
I even got here. And so yeah, the patients and
joy that she brought them, Like, thank God, I wouldn't
be able to go.

Speaker 3 (08:49):
But you're not in a rush, you're having fun. You're
own baca.

Speaker 2 (08:52):
I mean them picking a magnet. And then my mom's like,
I don't feel like and it's also very hot. We're
itching mosquitoes, but like, yeah, it's a really calm, chill
way of life. But my niece and I went to
the grocery store like, I don't know, I'm having a
really lovely time here.

Speaker 1 (09:12):
I went last weekend out of town to Palm Springs
for my ten year wedding anniversary.

Speaker 2 (09:17):
I saw on Insta and I was I thought it
would probably be a group. I'm like, oh, I wonder
who they're down with. You know, we usually get houses
with friends. Yeah yeah, so I that's really sweet. So
you guys just went together with the kids.

Speaker 1 (09:28):
Yeah, and we went to this hotel that you know,
I found out about one of my mom groups, and
it was so beautiful and it looked like it's basically
on two sides. Of a street and one side is
Morocco and the other side's Mediterranean, but you can go
back and forth to both sides and so quiet, beautiful,
no children, like all just like watch the kids. My

(09:51):
in laws flew into town and they came and watched
the kids.

Speaker 3 (09:53):
It was way great.

Speaker 2 (09:54):
Did your mother in law like her Tiffany's bracelet?

Speaker 3 (09:57):
Yes, she did. She did. Wait she did that one
for a while. Yeah. I finally asked her. I was like,
she was like, you guys should not have done that.

Speaker 1 (10:06):
Like she was like, it's a tiffic like she could
not believe it. But yeah, she did love it. But
they Yeah, they watched the kids.

Speaker 2 (10:13):
What's the hotel cal You don't want to tell people
you want to gate keep I kind.

Speaker 3 (10:16):
Of want to gate keep it.

Speaker 1 (10:17):
People can dm me if you're really that if you're
really that interesting, you can dm me.

Speaker 3 (10:21):
But I'll tell you.

Speaker 1 (10:22):
I just felt really relaxed after it was like really nice.
There were no like nobody was there partying, nobody was
there with kids.

Speaker 3 (10:28):
Like everybody was.

Speaker 1 (10:29):
Just there to have a calm, chill weekend and relax
and like get a buzz, you know, like it's actually
has palm springs.

Speaker 2 (10:35):
Vibes in terms of like things close early. Here, it's
dinner at five or six. It is like a retirement community.
I would say, yeah, but like, and there's American shit.
My parents were obsessed with the Popeyes here. They had
Popeyes like two or three times. They could not stop
having Popeyes.

Speaker 3 (10:51):
Oh but I mean we.

Speaker 2 (10:52):
Also had beef tongue. Like, we were doing a lot
of stuff. But when I got here, my Dad's like,
you gotta have the Popeyes.

Speaker 3 (10:58):
I'm so glad you guys all to do that. How fun.

Speaker 2 (11:01):
I know, the boys, the little boys aren't here, but
I am glad we got to. And I only flipped
out twice, so I think that's like pretty I mean,
I guess that was only there for three days with them,
but I snapped twice. I snapped twice because everyone was saying, like, oh,
how's it gonna be. I go, well, I will ruin
the mood. I'm like, it feels like everyone's having a
great time. I'm like, yeah, I'm sure I will. I

(11:23):
will cause some chaos and problems for sure.

Speaker 1 (11:26):
Okay, wait, can I tell a really quick story about
the problem before I we get strung out?

Speaker 2 (11:30):
But I'm so glad so ten year anniversary. Congrats. I'm
glad you guys like Palm Springs. But I talked about
Palm Springs a lot here because I love it there.

Speaker 1 (11:37):
Yeah, okay, So you know how whenever I pick up
Oscar from his school, it's like pandemanium. Well, no, it's
just like when the teacher has a certain look on
her face. I'm like, go ahead, give me my beating,
like what did he do? You know?

Speaker 3 (11:49):
Or whatever? So she has this look on her face
and I go what happened?

Speaker 1 (11:53):
And she goes, well, just now, before you came to
pick up, he started calling a couple of our friends losers.

Speaker 3 (11:59):
And I what. I was like, I've never heard him
say loser. I've never heard him use that word. Like
that's crazy.

Speaker 1 (12:08):
So I was like, losers and she goes, yeah, I
don't know.

Speaker 3 (12:12):
You know, these kids they pick things up.

Speaker 1 (12:13):
And I go, well, we don't really say loser or whatever,
as like I'm certain certainly never like, hey, you're a
loser to my kids or anything.

Speaker 3 (12:21):
But so he says sorry to the girls, and it's.

Speaker 1 (12:24):
Like whatever, and then we leave and I go Oski
and I'm holding him.

Speaker 3 (12:28):
I go, why why did you call them? Losers. Where
did you even hear that?

Speaker 1 (12:32):
And he I swear to god, I know people can't
see me, but with this exact intonation, he goes, I
don't know, you know how it's like people say Donald
Trump's a loser, and like, you know, he's a loser.
I was like, okay, okay, maybe we did say that.
We maybe did say Donald Trump's a loser. Like I
was like, oh fuck. I like fully tracked it back

(12:52):
and was like, yeah, I would never call a person
that I like knew personally a loser, but I definitely
probably said so we got in trouble for calling kids
losers at school because I called Donald Trump a loser
in my home.

Speaker 3 (13:03):
But what why did he call the girls losers? I'm curious.

Speaker 1 (13:06):
He said that they were saying something to him and
so he said you're a loser or something like that,
like you know, he was like, it wasn't like they
were I don't think he even knew how mean it sounded.
He was just like, oh, I don't know. You know,
you guys say Donald Trump's a loser. The way he
said it was like I don't know, like you guys
kind of like I hear this around like you know,
it's on the street people are saying loser. It's just like,

(13:29):
I know, it's my little kids say the darnedest thing
corner sometimes on the pod.

Speaker 3 (13:32):
But it really made me laugh so hard. I was like,
you're right, we probably lose also a fun insult. I know.

Speaker 1 (13:39):
I'm in the loser, I know, but like the little
girls are like so sweet and they really like him
and they're all friends, and I'm like, don't call anyone
a loser at school, dude, Come on, like, don't be
that way. Anyway, we're gonna get started. Go to Thats
messed up live dot com for we got merch up
there in the shop, We've got Lisa. You could scroll

(14:00):
down to where its as Liza's website and that takes
you to all of the legit ticket links for her
tour dates and stuff.

Speaker 3 (14:05):
And you know, you can also.

Speaker 2 (14:07):
If you're listening to this right now, you could see
me in Atlanta to night and tomorrow and then oh
Charlotte this weekend, Thursday, Friday and Saturday.

Speaker 3 (14:16):
So get out there.

Speaker 2 (14:18):
Hit me up, honey, bunches out there, guys. Oh my god,
yesterday I was sitting looking at the dog and I
went Oh god, Bailey's just a true blue cutie, and
people go, what does that mean? I go, I have
no idea. I don't know what just came out of
my mouth. I'm like, I don't even know if those
words go together. Humiliating. Well, we've got a too blue
cuty of an episode for you, you know, And I

(14:39):
know I'm doing this and it's annoying, but things are.
You're in LA, and do you have anything to say
about what's going on and anything you'd like to say?

Speaker 1 (14:49):
Yeah, I want to say that you cannot trust what
the media is fucking spinning for you. LA is peacefully protesting.
I mean it's terrifying, Like I'm getting emails from my kids'
school principal there's ice activity outside the school, Like you
got these fucking ice guys are ghouls. They're absolute ghoulish monsters,

(15:10):
going to graduations, going to kids' schools to try to
pick up kids to get to their parents or whatever
the fuck they're doing. It's fucked up. But Angelino's are
protesting peacefully. There have been a handful of people, as
there are with every protest, who have lit a car
on fire or done something in the incendiary like that
that is not an excuse to override the governor and

(15:32):
send in the National guard. There is not. This city's
not going crazy. There is peaceful protests happening everywhere, and
we're fucked though. This shit is fucked with him with
the ice.

Speaker 3 (15:44):
I don't know. It's terrifying.

Speaker 1 (15:45):
I have friends who are documented who are like they
could pick me up, Like they could pick me up
just on how I look, you know.

Speaker 2 (15:52):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's so fucked because let's say, let's
say all these people are breaking the law and they
need to be arrested. It has to be at a
child's graduation, Yeah, it has to in court. You're dragging
people out of work and home to bet Like, fuck you.

Speaker 1 (16:08):
I literally just got a text they're at a hospital
by the way. Let your like, I'm on this text
with a bunch of moms that are like, let anybody
you know that might be at ex hospital that they're
around there like hospital.

Speaker 2 (16:18):
Like they're causing the violence. Like that's what I don't
understand about outside people. And I know the media is
like very like persuasive in whatever way, and we are
taught to trust it or not, Like I don't even know,
but it's like the governor, the mayor, everyone said, we
don't need all these these people don't need militia. It's
like they're the ones causing violence. They're shooting reporters with
rubber bullets on fucking camera. They're such bullies, and I

(16:40):
can't I don't understand why people are more mad like
fuck you you boot liquors, like fuck yeah, I don't
get how no one's like, oh, they might be causing
the riots. And then it's just family is living. It's
like I keep thinking about my Arta, where you live,
and yeah, my old neighborhood and all those people and
the feel and how that affects you and your family,

(17:02):
and you can't like it's awful. And then being here
in Mexico. My sister says she was out one night
and someone was wearing a fucking make America Great Again
hat here in Mexico and this king grip No. My
sister said, a woman attacked him and it was amazing.
Flips his hat off and goes, what the fuck are
you doing here? And oh if I could do that
one day to someone, Oh my god, I want to

(17:24):
start a fight so bad.

Speaker 1 (17:26):
Yeah. No, it's just like I never forget that the
whole reason that I mean, yes, they want Yes they're racist, Yes,
the cruelty is the point. They're trying to get us
to not pay attention to the elon breakup, to the
big beautiful bill that's gonna fuck everybody from education to
snap to everything. Like they're just trying to get us
to be so consumed in all the chaos that we

(17:49):
can't look see what they're doing when they're trying to
fucking take everything away from you, Like, I hope you're
having a good time if you're one of these people
that voted for him, I hope you're having a good
time watching what you to be drug dealers carted off
to with illegally with no due process, while they are
defunding your school and not letting anybody in your community
get food that needs it.

Speaker 3 (18:08):
Like, I hope that's you're having a great day with that.
I don't want to smilled neighbor, Like it's just devastating.

Speaker 1 (18:16):
I've been texting people. I've been texting people being like,
I just want to make sure you're okay. It's it's
it's terrible, but we will Well let us know if
there's any way that you know, keep us posted. Yeah,
I'll keep you guys posted, And but I would just say, like,
you know, we've been talking about AI and shit, like
just be careful. Make sure what you're looking at is

(18:36):
not just like positioned media created images thing like Joe's
Woods is selling fucking James Woods is posting images from
twenty twenty, Like, make sure that what you're seeing is
what you're seeing. Talk to people, try to see people
who actually live in these cities or these places, like
there is not anything.

Speaker 3 (18:53):
Bad happening in la any that they're trying to make
it seem. And let's say it is or whatever. Let's
say everyone's looting everything.

Speaker 2 (19:00):
Ask what those people, why you care more about a
car on fire than a mother being dragged away from
her daughter.

Speaker 1 (19:08):
While her While someone in my mom group just posted
that they're helping a family where a woman was just
deported by ice and leaving her thirteen month old child behind.

Speaker 2 (19:17):
That's like to ask yourself why you care more about
a car than a child ripped away from their fucking
mother for no reason, for no reason, like have some
fucking humanity, Like oh my god, and I told my parents,
I go if you were being snatched away.

Speaker 3 (19:34):
I would burn a car too, and then they laughed.

Speaker 2 (19:36):
But anyways, no, they understand it all and we're we're
just immigrants and you know it's fun.

Speaker 1 (19:44):
Yeah, but we're starting. We got a start.

Speaker 3 (19:48):
Oh my god, this episode is terrible.

Speaker 1 (19:51):
We have this is a wild episode.

Speaker 3 (19:56):
Good guests, hang in there with us, guys. Here we go. Okay,
let's jump in.

Speaker 1 (20:06):
This is another double episode we're doing the season premiere
two episodes of season twenty Man Up and Man Down,
episodes one and two.

Speaker 3 (20:15):
These aired in September of twenty eighteen.

Speaker 2 (20:21):
And you know, we say this a lot, but these
are bad. These are bad. They haunt me.

Speaker 3 (20:26):
These this episodes taught me. Yes, yes, they sent me.

Speaker 2 (20:29):
They're hard to watch. I can't believe we're doing it.

Speaker 1 (20:32):
Yeah, yeah, start. Yeah, this is not that they're not
there's all. I mean, there's so many episodes that are
hard to watch. But yeah, this is like the beginning.

Speaker 3 (20:40):
Of really the new air.

Speaker 1 (20:43):
Not a lot of levity, yes, like really like no
levity and these like the twenties and a lot of
the twenties seasons and late maybe late teens. But this
episode begins with live running after a suspect and the
bitch is winded. I'm not gonna lie. Okay, time stops
for no one. Carezi takes over the chase. Finn cuts

(21:03):
the guy off in a car, pops out with a
gun drawn and goes, don't make me shoot you and
the purpses he's completely surrounded and takes the opportunity to
violently confess, Fine, I raped that bitch, which is I
just said that. Nothing is sort of not that this
is funny, but it is wild that a guy would
just go, fine.

Speaker 3 (21:22):
You got me, I did it. It's like it reminds
me of like.

Speaker 1 (21:24):
A Boris and Natasha cartoing or something like what do
you tell when you tie him to the railroad tracks?

Speaker 3 (21:28):
Like it's just crazy.

Speaker 1 (21:30):
And then like Live catches up and she's still breathing
really heavy, and you could tell she's like kind of
disappointed in herself, like and when she's running, it's like
he's right there and she just can't grab him. And
then we cut to Stone looking at pictures of him
and his sister, who was kidnapped and you know, murdered
by a gang member sash sex trafficker right before Stone's eyes,

(21:54):
and he and she died in Stone's arms.

Speaker 3 (21:56):
Last season. So Stone's looking at pictures of his dead sister.

Speaker 1 (22:00):
He's got a babe in his bed who's naked, asking
for prosecco, and then boom, there's another girl.

Speaker 3 (22:05):
There's two.

Speaker 1 (22:06):
Stone is self medicating with sex and you know.

Speaker 3 (22:10):
He's sky I mean to have a three? We did?

Speaker 4 (22:12):
You did?

Speaker 3 (22:13):
Just say like this episode has no levity.

Speaker 2 (22:15):
It's the no levity era, and we already have like
a guy, I know, a fun quick confession and we
have a threesome which we've never rat on this programming.

Speaker 1 (22:24):
But then after this, it's over. After this, he's just
darkness from here.

Speaker 3 (22:28):
Sexual.

Speaker 2 (22:29):
I love Stone in his slut era, like, I don't know,
it's exciting.

Speaker 3 (22:33):
Well, like we.

Speaker 1 (22:35):
Never saw Diane Neil in bed with anyone, kiss anyone.
We never saw cabin, we never saw Barba, Like we're
just letting this guy fuck like he's like there's other
episodes too that we cover where he's just like going
home with.

Speaker 3 (22:50):
Ladies, making out, picking up girls at bars.

Speaker 1 (22:52):
Like I think that's They were like, if we're gonna
have a guy that's so handsome and looks good with
his shirt off, let's get him with his shirt off.

Speaker 2 (23:00):
Yeahs, Yeah, well, I guess tomorrow Amar and Rollins were
getting hot and hey, I mean.

Speaker 3 (23:07):
Rollins is just yeah. But even then we saw them kiss.

Speaker 1 (23:11):
Yeah, like they just kind of had him come out
of the shower one time, like to just give us
a little tease. But I feel like we never even
really saw them make out. But this is, you know, exciting.
I'm it's hot and heavy.

Speaker 3 (23:24):
Yeah. So now we cut to Amanda.

Speaker 1 (23:28):
She's chatting with baby daddy number two, the one we
always forget about. The actor is the groom from Father
of the Bride. His name is George Newbern, the actor,
and he's begging what.

Speaker 3 (23:41):
I don't think I knew that that he's the dad,
that he's the He's yeah, he's the he's the groom
from I'm right.

Speaker 2 (23:48):
Right, Oh my god. I am floored. I mean, now
I see it. I obviously see it looking at this man,
but I am like shocked.

Speaker 1 (23:56):
Yeah, Benson has I mean, if you're gonna have three
baby daddies, Donald log the groom from Father of the Bride,
and CARIESI are pretty good three.

Speaker 3 (24:08):
Baby daddies, you know. Yeah, yeah yeah, And he's like
this guy was it.

Speaker 1 (24:14):
He's been in all the Father of the Bride's Father
of the Bride part three ish like, but he's in
four episodes as doctor Al Pollock. Wait, this is his
first episode, so I guess we're we don't really like
see them meet or anything. This is where we meet
him for the first time. This scene that I'm describing,
that's crazy. And then he's you know, famously he's around

(24:37):
for like when Rollins gives birth and she's like, he
proposes at the hospital and she's like, get the fuck
out of here, and then he's never in her life
again pretty much.

Speaker 3 (24:45):
But this guy also was a standing for her money.
He is wealthy. I hope he's like, yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:51):
Yeah, if he could just pay for a nanny. That
then covers also you know, uh, Billy and Jesse, and
then yeah, covers college.

Speaker 3 (25:00):
I'd be great.

Speaker 1 (25:01):
But he's in sixty nine episodes of Scandal, so he's
a regular on Scandal if you know him from that,
But if you're a Father of the Bride person, he's
in that universe. So back to this little you know,
they're at like a nice restaurant. Rollins is in like
cute outfit like there, and he's begging her for a
second chance. So I guess since I just looked him

(25:23):
up and this is the first episode, I guess you're
just supposed to be like, oh, she was dating this
guy and we don't know where she met him, but
she was like dating this doctor. Okay, and she and
he swears that quote the business with the escorts is
behind him, Like he goes, I've changed, Like what the fuck? Rollins, Like,
I know, you make bad decisions, but like this man's
been with escorts, like and cheating on you with escorts,

(25:45):
not like you know, it's just like he's probably hasn't changed.

Speaker 3 (25:49):
So she leaves.

Speaker 1 (25:50):
She gets like a look on her face, and she leaves,
go to the bathroom, and then you see the toilet flushing,
and like, you know, if you're anybody with like a brain,
you're like, she's pregnant, you know, like we don't know,
we don't know for sure yet, but like anybody that's
like has to rush to the bathroom and then you
just see flushing.

Speaker 3 (26:02):
Yeah. So when she comes.

Speaker 1 (26:04):
Back, she sees this guy and he's like flirting with
the waitress and it seems like they might even be
exchanging numbers.

Speaker 3 (26:09):
Like he's he's not good, he's not good.

Speaker 1 (26:10):
He literally just finished exhaling his apology to her, and
like then he's flirting with this woman. Like so, now
cut to a teen with a rifle. This beginning of
this cold open is really jumping to a lot of places.
It's live winded Stone in a threesome, Rollin's barfing with
her cheating boyfriend, and now a teen with a rifle.

Speaker 3 (26:29):
We're not at the credits. We're not at the credits. Okay,
not even the credits. We're not even at the crime yet. Yeah,
we're not at anything.

Speaker 1 (26:35):
So the teen with the rifle is like he looks nervous,
he's kind.

Speaker 3 (26:38):
Of like he's hesitating.

Speaker 1 (26:40):
Another teen is like, just shoot him, shoot it, and
it's like the little target site is on a rabbit,
a little baby rabbit. The brother like just shoots at
the rabbit and then they go find the rabbit and
it's dying. It's not dead, and the older one is like,
just like shoot it, like do it, pussy, and like
he won't. The kid won't do it. The dad is
there now and he's like I can't do what. I'm sorry, dad,

(27:01):
And the dad tells him you should be apologizing to
the rabbit. The rabbit suffering and then the dad snaps
the neck of the rabbit. So and the dad is
Dylan Walls, who obviously is a huge part of my
life from Niptuck, the series that I gave so much
of my life too. And he's also in another SVU
called Annihilated from season eight and refuses to do the point.

(27:22):
We are dying to get him on the podcast. We're
having a hard time getting through. So if anyone knows
him personally, please let us know. The younger son is
crying and apologizing to his dad, and his dad goes,
it's okay, he goes, you'll learn, but it's not in
a gentle parenting type of way. Okay, it's ominous. The
music is playing. He's not thinking he's going to like

(27:42):
walk him through hunting until he gets it.

Speaker 3 (27:44):
You know. It's like he's going to be punished.

Speaker 1 (27:47):
So now we cut to a school principle filling in
rollins in careesy. Sam Conway fifteen had blood on the
back of his shorts, the kids claiming he fell. Okay,
it's like my mother in law used to work in
the er and people would have light bulbs up their asses.
It would be like I fell. It's like that's not
really how the butt hole works.

Speaker 2 (28:04):
That's like a common thing that's always brought up, like
all the light bulbs in the butt, and it's like,
but how do they not crack?

Speaker 3 (28:10):
Like what are we talking about? I know? And I
feel like the glass murders people, does it not? It's this,
It's like so crazy.

Speaker 2 (28:19):
There's so many other objects you could put up your
butt that are harder, tougher glass.

Speaker 3 (28:24):
That's what I don't get. You want something that's like that.

Speaker 1 (28:27):
Maybe it's like the threat of having your butt filled
with shards of glass, but I mean Jesus, as someone
who's had butt botox and talked about it openly, you
don't want that anyway. Sam's in the nurse's office. Sam's
in the nurse's office with his brother Brian, who's very
agro and Sam's just like, I just want to go home.

Speaker 3 (28:47):
I just I fell I want to go home.

Speaker 1 (28:48):
And then the mom shows up and she's worried, and
Chrisy's like, well, we got to take your son to
the hospital. So Sam is played by Bryce Romero, who
was also in the movie Lisa Frankenstein, which I wanted
to see but I didn't. So from that yeah, he's
in that and.

Speaker 3 (29:03):
Uh was it good?

Speaker 2 (29:05):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (29:05):
I liked it.

Speaker 2 (29:06):
I feel like it was on a plane, like in
the more like I think I was like in a haze.
And I liked it, but I should probably watch it again. Yeah,
I'm confusing that and the warm and the Nicholas Holt one.
I loved Lisa Frankenstein. Okay, great, watch this one.

Speaker 3 (29:20):
Yeah, I liked it.

Speaker 1 (29:24):
Now we're at the hospital and bad news anal penetration
and most likely not by an object, and he's not talking.
The kid is not talking, and the family wants to
all believe that he fell. Cariese's telling Sam listen, buddy,
the docs say this wasn't an accident, and Sam's like, I'm.

Speaker 3 (29:41):
Fine, okay, I needed this to happen.

Speaker 1 (29:42):
It's my business, and Christy goes, okay, but if you
decide you're not fine, give me a call. Give me
a call. And then he gives him his card. So
now at the precinct, it's time for the info dump.
Sam Well liked good grades, plays travel baseball, volunteers in
an animal shelter, Hence why he probably doesn't want to
shoot a fucking re abit.

Speaker 3 (30:01):
No bullying, no red flags, with.

Speaker 1 (30:03):
Any of his teachers, like or anything like that. So
they're kind of like at a loss. The dad owns
a beverage distribution company. The mom's a stay at home mom.
They've been married twenty years. I mean, the stay at
home mom of the fifteen and the seventeen year old.
I just don't get what you're doing all day long,
Like if they're at school and then they have practice
like from eight to six, I don't know what you're
doing but chilling, but hopefully chilling.

Speaker 2 (30:24):
Well, she clearly doesn't have a great home life, so
she's on edge cleaning the home so she's.

Speaker 1 (30:29):
Not abused later. It's not that's a good situation. Well, no,
of course we're not there yet. In my notes, I'm
just like, God, that sounds boring. And that's also just
my opinion. Maybe that sounds wonderful to some people.

Speaker 2 (30:40):
You could go to a breakfast, you can go to
a workout class, you could.

Speaker 3 (30:43):
Use self maintenance. Yeah, and then you can like even
go for a crafting. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:48):
There's tons, there's tons of Maybe maybe she's heavy into
the pta at the school too, Maybe she does stuff
with their school.

Speaker 3 (30:54):
I'm Joie. I'm just saying for me, it couldn't be me.

Speaker 1 (30:57):
But they've been married twenty years and there's no domestic violence.
There's no domestic violence that we've you know, seen this
in the no it's okay the law in the eyes
of their record. They've been married twenty years and there's
no DV. The brothers are close and they went hunting
with the dad over the weekend. They're all stumped, but
Coriesy goes, I don't know. Sam said something weird. He

(31:18):
said this needed to happen. Yeah, that's a pretty weird
thing to fucking say. So they're like, maybe he ran
into a predator up state. Now we see live facetiming
with Noah and he's giving her a guilt trip for
missing his game where he almost hit a home run.

Speaker 3 (31:30):
Shut up, Noah, call me when you hit a home run.
She'll be there.

Speaker 1 (31:33):
Sam has a girlfriend who is also on her way
in Rollin's is like eating banana bread and lives like
something up and Rollins dodges it and is like this
banana bread. Oh, there's the girlfriend, and so that like
now they're going to talk to this girl who's allegedly
Sam's girlfriend, and she's.

Speaker 2 (31:48):
Like like, now that's what's confusing where it's like banana bread,
something must be wrong.

Speaker 1 (31:52):
Like I know, I feel like it's like live has
intuition about this kind of stuff. And also sometimes people's
faces changed when they're p but she seems like she's
early along, like I don't know, but she feels like
she gets something.

Speaker 3 (32:05):
She's picking up on something.

Speaker 1 (32:07):
And so they're talking to the girlfriend and the girlfriend's like,
I'm not his girlfriend, girlfriend, Like we tried one time,
but he just couldn't do it. And she says she's
pissed at him because they were supposed to study last
night and he called her wasted. He was either laughing
or crying and he said I became a man tonight.

Speaker 3 (32:23):
So what yikes.

Speaker 1 (32:26):
So then they go to the bar where I guess
they trace her phone and find out where the phone
call came from. The bartender goes, oh, yeah, this kid
was at the bar with his dad. They show a
picture of the dad and he go of Dylan Walsh
and they're like, the guy goes, that's not the guy.
This guy had white hair and glasses. He paid cash,
but I think they left in an uber. They pick
up the uber. No one else ubered from this bar,

(32:47):
they get this guy immediately. His name is Gus Haverford.
He's fifty five and he's an SVP at Morgan Stanley.
So as they go talk to this guy, Rollin's uncovers
that Carisi has never had a massage, and she's shocked.
She cannot believe it, and I'm like, you can't believe that,
Sonny Kreese's never been like, yeah, can I get a
fifty five minute shiatsu?

Speaker 3 (33:06):
I don't think anybody thinks that's happening, Like so like
that law school to study for. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (33:13):
They see Haverford and he immediately goes, I swear I
didn't know the kid was fifteen, so very very forthcoming
for a fifty five year old financial guy who could
probably lose his whole fucking life over this. And so
now in interrogation, this guy's explaining, listen, the kid was
fucked up. I had an uber take him home and
they're like, yeah, your hands are all over him.

Speaker 3 (33:33):
He's like, I was trying to comfort him. He was crying,
and he goes.

Speaker 1 (33:36):
Sam didn't want to go home, but he seemed more
worried about his brother, and he kept rambling about a
rabbit and then he's kind of like, all right, if
I'm gonna say anything.

Speaker 3 (33:44):
Else, I want a lawyer.

Speaker 1 (33:45):
And so Live and Finn are watching through the glass
and lives like something did happen on that hunting trimp
and Finn goes, white people in rifles, don't ask me,
and it's like, again, put it in the coffee table book,
like I don't understand why there's not a book being
created of just beautiful images.

Speaker 3 (34:00):
And Finn sayings.

Speaker 1 (34:02):
Finn goes to talk to Brian, who's the brother, and
he's on his way to baseball practice and he's like, yeah,
I was worried sick about my brother when he went
out that night, but then he came home. He puked everywhere.
I cleaned him up and I put him to bed.
And Finn's like, come on, dude, like the injuries. You
know your brother was raped, and he's like, my brother's
not gay. It's like, I love how that's like the
main that's the main thing that could be the worst

(34:23):
case scenario here. And he picks up that Finn is
hinting that he might have something to do with it all,
and he's like, you guys are sick, and he walks
to the bus and he's like, how about that rabbit, though,
Finn says and the good the Kid's like taking aback
that Finn knows about the rabbit. So now back at
the precinct, they're filling in Live and they're like, we
feel like the brother knows what's up. Cariesy's like, I'm

(34:44):
gonna make some calls. Then Live takes this opportunity to
talk to Rollins again and he's like, girl, whatever's up
with you? Tell me or don't tell me, and then
Rollins blurts out, I'm pregnant, and Live's face lights up. Congratulations.
But going off of Rollins, it's like, maybe not good news,
Like and what we've seen this guy that she's pregnant
with is a fucking like asshole.

Speaker 2 (35:06):
So careesy momonizer, But you know, j Benson's always got
baby's on the brain.

Speaker 1 (35:12):
She's really I mean, I talk about it later. It's
a little disappointing, uh, to be honest, Like I would
just assume that she'd be a little bit more like
okay and like wait to see you Amanda's thoughts on
it before just going like planning you a baby shower. Girl,
Like you know, she's just immediately so excited about it.
So they get interrupted in their little chat about the

(35:35):
baby because Careese busts in, and it's because Sam and
Brian just got into a fight with each other at school,
so now they're at school, they're holding Brian back. He
gets free and goes after his brother again, telling him
he's being a baby, and then they like the cops haven't,
but then he wiggles out of the cops grip and
takes off running and now here we go again, making

(35:55):
Olivia run and she's chasing him and she just can't
grab him. She's like right there grabbing her hands out
like gimmy, gimme, gimmey, and she's not getting him. He
knocks over a bicyclist. The bicyclist does it seem like
she's going that fast and she gets knocked over. Cariese
steps in and grabs Brian, and the biker's on the
ground crying and screaming, and it doesn't look like that

(36:16):
high speed of a collision, but something happened and she's
in bad shape. So at the precinct, now Stone and
Liver are watching Brian through the fishbowl and Live thinks
maybe the brother is a victim too, and will give
us something. Rollins is trying to connect with Brian, who's like,
I love Sam, I wouldn't actually hurt him, and they're like,
you were just trying to punch his lights out at school,
like what the fuck? And then asked me about the

(36:38):
hunting trip and he's like, yeah, we go hunting. My
dad shot a bore one s cool story, bro, Like
I don't know why he's bringing it up. And he's
like so pissed that his brother wouldn't shoo the rabbit,
like as if like a rabbit is like some rare
animal that you don't get like a chance every day.

Speaker 3 (36:51):
To get a shot at.

Speaker 1 (36:51):
Like there, everything's nice, Yeah the fuck. Yeah, they're all
like just acting really really psycho about the rabbit.

Speaker 3 (37:00):
Dad reminds me of the dad from American Beauty. Oh,
the neighbor dad. Yeah, yeah, yes, he's good.

Speaker 1 (37:06):
What's that actor's name, Chris Cooper, Chris Cooper, Yeah, yeah,
totally giving those vibes. And then we're talking to the
mom now and Sam and she's like, what, brother's fight,
Like the mom's a little battie and she's like it
looked like he was trying to kill you or shut
you up or about something, and then the dad joins

(37:27):
the combo and he drops this big bomb where he goes,
you know, Sam came out to me this morning.

Speaker 3 (37:32):
He's gay.

Speaker 1 (37:32):
The mom is like, what, Like, that's not the thing
that you, as a husband just really like say to
the cops, and you've not told your wife yet, and
he's like, yeah, he met a young man on the
trip and one thing led to another. We talked it out.
Everyone's good. Sam does not look good. Sam looks really
upset and he's obviously going along with what his dad says.
He's lying pretty hardchries. He's like, Okay, what's the story

(37:55):
with the guy? What did he look like, how old
was he? What was his build? And the dad's like,
you don't really need a question my son about this
unless being gay as illegal. And they're like, what are
you not getting about your son being fifteen and he
can't consent. So unless he met like a sixteen year
old out in the woods and had sex with them,
then if it was a man, this is still a crime.
And the dad's like, we're leaving, so I don't. It's like,

(38:17):
it's crazy. This whole thing. Stone is not buying the
Sam had a steamy hook up in the Woods story.
He thinks the father's protecting Sam from the older brother Brian.

Speaker 3 (38:25):
They're gonna call CPS. They need to get Sam out
of that house.

Speaker 1 (38:27):
House Live thinks the mom knows what's going on, so
let's talk to her.

Speaker 3 (38:31):
Her name is Molly.

Speaker 1 (38:32):
So now they're at the family's massive apartment by the way,
and Molly's like, can't talk. The dad is out for
pizza with my boys, and she goes like, we have
something to celebrate. So she's obviously like, yeah, why the
fuck we having a pizza party? Like, my son obviously
had some kind of weird Woods encounter. We don't know
what's going on, and Lives like, how are you gonna

(38:52):
get through life with Sam with him knowing you didn't
protect him or keep him safe? And she's like what
can I do? And she's like then she finally gets
to it, like, Lives like, tell me what happened, Like
tell me the truth, and she's like, well, I heard
sounds coming from Sam's room. I was listening at the door.
I heard Sam whimpering. She said it sounded like an animal.
It broke her heart, and she says she went in

(39:14):
and Sam was on the bed, and she goes and
he was just standing there zipping his pants up. And
they go Brian, and she goes my husband and live
is shocked. No one was thinking at all it could
be this dad at all. Like everyone's like, no, it's
more likely that the older brother raped his brother than
the dad, even though I don't know. We're in SVUW

(39:34):
have we've seen this time and time again. Molly said
that later, when she talked to her husband about it,
he said, don't say a word. Sam's fine. The next day,
she said she found bloody underwear in the closet. John
told her to wash them. She's upset and she's crying
and she like can't believe she turned a blind eye
to all of this.

Speaker 3 (39:51):
And then John and the boys come home with the
pizza and the cops arrest him.

Speaker 1 (39:55):
So in interrogation, John is freaking out, saying, my wife
agrees with whatever the last person said to her, says
like he's basically has zero respect for his wife. He's
freaking out being like, you guys are sick. How could
you put these ideas in? And he's like they're like, dude,
we didn't even think it was you, like we fully
were going after your son, like your wife is the

(40:16):
one that pointed us to you. And his lawyer is
Kurt Fuller, and you've seen him in like ninety thousand things.
He was also in the episode Info Wars and season
nineteen as the same character. He's a defense attorney named
Jed Carrey Uh. And suddenly he stops freaking out the
dad and asks Stone, do you hunt mister Stone? And
then he tells a stupid fucking monologue about killing an

(40:38):
innocent deer. It's like, truly the toxic masculinity version of
Marissa Tomey's monologue about the baby deer and my cousin Vinnie.

Speaker 3 (40:44):
It's just like he digs the opposite side of it.
I've never seen my cousin Vinnie.

Speaker 1 (40:48):
Oh my gosh. Put that into the right with ghosts.
You would love it. You would love it, Marissa Tomay,
Joe Peschi. They're so good in it.

Speaker 3 (40:56):
It's so good. It's so good. I love that. I
know it's really wild. Yeah, I love I actually feel
shame about that.

Speaker 1 (41:03):
It's actually also so good because it's like a it's
like a comedy, but there is like this great crime
and twists and they use police work, and so I think, like,
procedurally you will as a procedural fan, you will like
it as well. So this fucking guy is just trying
a big time stone about what a cool manly man
he is.

Speaker 3 (41:22):
Like I don't even flinch.

Speaker 1 (41:23):
I just fucking kill innocent animals with my rifle, like
I'm so awesome. And in the next scene, I'm sorry,
I like literally have almost I just have like no
respect for hunting. Like if you need to hunt for
your food, then okay, But like I had to, I've
had to hide friends on my Facebook and stuff who

(41:44):
will just post photos of them like holding up wild
game as like a prize when it's like you just
and I know people are eating meat and that's fine.
I'm not even that, but it's like to just go
out and not even use the meat for anything or
the spurs for anything. You're just doing it to kill it,
Like I just it's wild to me, Like I'm really
kind of grossed out by it. But in the next scene,

(42:06):
Caresee catches up to Sam at batting practice and Sam's
like leave me alone, and Caresee's like, let's talk sports,
and I'm gonna get this kid to open up and
he's like, oh, my dad used to bust my balls
about passing up shots in basketball.

Speaker 3 (42:18):
And then he's like that's why he goes.

Speaker 1 (42:20):
I think that's why they invented sports, so dads would
have something to talk about.

Speaker 3 (42:23):
With their sons. And Sam wants Cariesy to like let
it go.

Speaker 1 (42:26):
He's like, let it go, and Carisey's like, dude, you
know I can't do that. And he's like, your mom
saw your dad in that room.

Speaker 3 (42:32):
She told us.

Speaker 1 (42:33):
And just when we think Sam is about to break
down and admit everything, he's like, just because your life
sucks doesn't mean my life has to suck. Your dad
blows My dad rules. He would never hurt me, and
I'll never say he did. Like this guy, this kid
is really holding on so fucking tight. Like in other
episodes that we've seen, we see kids live for their parents,
cover up for their abuse or blah blah blah, but
at some point they're eventually like okay, And this kid's

(42:55):
just holding on so tight to the like his dad
being the best guy on illusion.

Speaker 3 (43:01):
So now Live and Stone are in a walk and talk.

Speaker 1 (43:03):
Stone's like, I don't care what kind of world this
is as if this is like the first ancestual atrocity
that's run across his desk, like I don't understand, but
and then Liv goes, I guess there has to be
a hell so we can recognize heaven. And then the
two of them like talk a lot, a bunch of
scripture bullshit, and it's like it's a weird moment, like
Live doesn't usually.

Speaker 3 (43:21):
Talk like that. That feels like a little bit of
Marishka sneaking in there.

Speaker 1 (43:24):
And Stone doesn't get why kids have to suffer, and uh,
Olivia is like, listen, if you ever need to talk
about Pam, I'm here for you, and Stone's like, she's dead,
what is there to talk about? And then he changes
the subject like he doesn't want to, he doesn't really
want the shoulder to cry on. He changes the subject
to John Conway. They're going to try to bring him
to trial without a complaining witness, and Live can't believe that,

(43:46):
and he goes, well, the war you can't win is
the only one worth fighting, so.

Speaker 3 (43:52):
All right, Yeah, so.

Speaker 1 (43:53):
Now we're in court and a nerd, which is which
is funny because that's literally the opposite of every da,
Like every DA to the ada's is like, if you're
not gonna win, get the fuck out of the court room,
like I don't know why you're even here, Like I
don't even care who this is.

Speaker 3 (44:07):
Just stop if you can't win, and get go home.
So now we're in court and a nerd.

Speaker 1 (44:12):
Is on the stand talking about the DNA samples they
found in Sam's underwear. So basically, they found blood and
semen on this kid's underwear. But the lawyer makes the
case that because the underwear was washed with the clothes
of other family members, he's like, couldn't have been transferred.
This is what Jed is saying the attorney and he
the defense attorney, and he's like. The nerd goes, it's possible,

(44:35):
and he goes, is it likely? And he goes under
certain conditions, like I don't know. If I were on
the jury, I'd probably be like, this guy doesn't seem
like a piece of semen went in the wash onto
this underwear, Like I don't know, that doesn't seem like
science to me, but perhaps Stone calls the mom to
the stage, to the stage, Oh my god, that's so crazy.

(44:56):
Stone calls the mom to the stand, and Jed carried
the defense attorney objects over spousal privilege, and the judge is, like,
in my chambers. So they meet in chambers and somehow
the judge agrees that this counts for spousal privilege, like
you see your husband possibly doing something horrible to your child,

(45:17):
Like maybe she couldn't testify to the fact that he said,
don't say anything about this, because that's like pillow talk.
But if you walked in on a crime being committed
by your spouse, I.

Speaker 3 (45:27):
Don't think you're well.

Speaker 2 (45:29):
I also thought that was like to protect if you
want enact it, But you can testify against someone you're
married to, you can't.

Speaker 1 (45:36):
Yeah, But I think the point is, I guess that
they're making here is without a complaining witness, he has
to sustain the objection.

Speaker 3 (45:45):
Like if there was a.

Speaker 1 (45:47):
Complaintant that was confirming that a crime occurred, then she
could testify because she'd be testifying to a crime according
But right now she's just a testifying to something she
saw happen in their home, which I guess is protected.
I don't get it, but I can't believe that. I
can't believe that he stone would even go for it,

(46:08):
thinking that this would be a possibility, because there's no
case without that, like there's no case without what the
mom saw, you know. So back at the office, the
Live finds out that the lady on the bike who
fell over screaming during the chase with Brian has a
broken leg and she's gonna be at a cast for
three months and lives having an existential crisis over it.
She's a mom and a cop, and she's like, what

(46:29):
happens when I wake up one day and I can't
do one of those things? Am I less of? Am
I less of a person? And she's just bummed. She
got winded. She's like, I had to stop running and
this woman broke got her leg broken because I couldn't
catch the guy. And Finn's like, girl, I like ran
in decades.

Speaker 3 (46:45):
Yeah. Finn's like, Babe, we're old, that's life. What are
you gonna do. He's like, I feel the exact same way.
I like it. My lungs can't fill with air.

Speaker 1 (46:52):
Like it's fine, the young guys can come with us
and do the chases. It's also like people have like
accidentally died in these chases. This broken legs, She'll be okay,
you know what I mean, Like it's just it's not great.
But it's like she shouldn't be doubting her whole personality
in life choices, Kreese meets Stone at some swanky bar
and Stone's like, well, the trial's basically over because Cariesy's like,

(47:15):
you're drinking before the trial and he's like, it's basically over,
and Caresey tells him Sam is both terrified and embarrassed
by his dad. Stone wants to get Sam on the stand,
but that doesn't seem likely, so then Stone leaves and
Caresey goes, I'll get your tab and then the tab
they slide the tab over it and he goes, how
much trouble am I in? And when he gets the tab,
he goes, how long has he been here? So you
hit the feeling that Stone is blacked out so in court,

(47:38):
which is funny that we're completely fine with that here
because he's in mourning and he's like a manly man da.
But when it was Sonya, when it was Sonya Paxton,
we couldn't allow her to be drunk in court, okay,
double standard? In court, Stone calls the mom and the
defense is like, I'm sorry, what the fuck? Like, didn't
we just didn't we just go over this and it's

(47:59):
not happening, And so they approached the bench and so
and goes, well, circumstances have changed since the wife tampered
with evidence. She's now a co conspirator, a co conspirator,
and the judge is like, you'll have to charge her,
and he goes, yep, I'm charging her. So now their
communications are no longer protected because now they are co
conspirators in a crime.

Speaker 2 (48:17):
Look at this, Oh gameplay maybe yeah, maybe the drunk idea,
maybe a drunk idea from the bar.

Speaker 1 (48:23):
Yeah, he got wasted and was like, yes, thank you
Johnny Walker for helping me come up with this. So
we cut to the mom testifying to what she saw
and how john later told her to keep her trap
shut about it. Then on Cross, the defense is making
her look like a liar because she never said anything, like,
she never told anyone the story for a really long time.
He's like, like, the first time did you talk to the cops,
the second time you talked to the cops, did you

(48:44):
tell them this?

Speaker 3 (48:45):
And she's like no, No, did you tell the nurse?
Did you tell the principle?

Speaker 1 (48:47):
Like and he was like, that's why would you tell
the principle anyway. She also, I saw something really weird
in my house last night. She also admits that she
doesn't know what happened in that room, only what she saw, and.

Speaker 3 (48:59):
It's like, what the fuck, Like what the fuck?

Speaker 1 (49:03):
So now Sam is on the stand and he's basically
calling his mom a batshit.

Speaker 3 (49:07):
Little cuckoo bird.

Speaker 1 (49:07):
He's like, I love her, but she doesn't know what
the fuck is going on or what she's saying. He
denies on the sand that his dad assaulted him, and
then his lawyer makes him tell the story of meeting
the man on the hunting trip, like they don't ask
him for one fucking corroborating thing.

Speaker 3 (49:24):
Where did you guys meet? Where did the sex take place?

Speaker 4 (49:26):
Like what?

Speaker 3 (49:27):
Like nothing?

Speaker 1 (49:27):
He doesn't know anything because it didn't happen on Stone's Cross.
He asks Sam for all the details, and then he's like,
it's kind of weird. You remember everything about the hunting trip,
but you don't remember anything about the first time you
had sex on that hunting trip. And Sam's like, listen,
my dad killed a moose when he was twelve. My brother,
my brother killed a deer when he was fifteen. It's

(49:48):
like a write a passage in the family and then
Stone asks Sam, like, were you scared of your dad
during the hunting trip? And he goes, I just wanted
to be a man, and he goes, right, and a
man gets a man who gets scared needs to be punished,
needs to be humiliated, right, and that's what your dad did.
And Sam's like, no, no, my dad wouldn't do that,
and so yeah, holding on so tight. Now the jury

(50:12):
comes back with a not guilty verdict. Careese and Stone
look at Sam and walk off like we tried to
help you, kid, And then the mom is with the family,
even though she just testified against her husband in court,
like I'm not really understanding any of that like that,
the mom's like, all right, well, I guess you're in
a sense. We all go home like it's really weird,

(50:32):
But that's part one.

Speaker 3 (50:33):
That's man. Man, she doesn't worry. You know what's she
can now? I mean, you're right, you're right.

Speaker 1 (50:38):
If there's if there's, yeah, I'm sure that man has
Like I just made her sign a prenup and a
posting up and everything in between so that she gets
nothing if she walks out the door. And that's also
probably another reason why she's a stay at home mom.
He probably demands that, right, like he wants like a tradwife.

Speaker 3 (50:52):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, Like she.

Speaker 1 (50:54):
Maybe she's like, hey, I was wondering if I could
take a couple hours down at the cat shelter, and
he's like, no, kill the cat.

Speaker 3 (51:00):
So anyway, man down. Next episode, we obviously get.

Speaker 1 (51:04):
The recap, and then the next thing we see, the
cold open, we see Stone is on the front steps
of the courthouse and he's obviously getting shit from his boss,
the DA on the phone for losing because he does
not believe that the fights you can't win are the
ones worth fighting for.

Speaker 3 (51:16):
He does not believe that his boss.

Speaker 1 (51:18):
So Live follows Molly the Mom into the bathroom and
she's like, I know what you're gonna say, and then
she's like, listen, let's call CPS, like let's get Sam
out of that house. And Molly's like, and break up
our family because honestly she's indoctrinated too that like, the
family is the core, the nuclear family is the core
of the world, of society, of everything in your life,

(51:39):
and so like to break up the family to keep
her son safe.

Speaker 2 (51:43):
Yes, kids aren't safe Toget like, what, Yeah, it's it's
like family is broken, babe, the family is broken.

Speaker 3 (51:51):
So many people are like, well, we stay together for
the kids.

Speaker 1 (51:53):
And it's like when you guys hate each other and
there's clearly like sort of like verbal or emotional abuse
going on between you, and that's what you want. That's
how that's better for the kids.

Speaker 3 (52:02):
Like it doesn't. It's wild.

Speaker 1 (52:04):
I know that it's like not cut and dry when
it comes to divorce, but like there's so many people
that want to stay together.

Speaker 2 (52:10):
But everyone's all so clearly scared of this man. Yeah
you know, yeah, he is scared of this mother.

Speaker 3 (52:15):
And he has guns. Yes, exactly. He's like a hunting freak,
you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (52:20):
Right, And I'm sure he has nice skills, like he
snapped the rabbit's fucking neck with his hands. Yeah, and
lives like, no, I don't want to break up your family.
I just want you to protect your son, which I
know you've been trying to do, And she's like, I
could keep it safe by staying with him, and then
lives like how you cannot watch him all the time,
And then she goes. The mom goes, John knows he

(52:42):
crossed a line and lives like Jesus crossed the line,
like he raped your son, and this woman is like
du Lulu town. She goes, well, a jury found him
not guilty, so maybe I didn't see what I saw.
And yeah, I mean she's a victim too. Probably the
alternative for her is years of legal and emotional battles.
And that does sound like the move for her family

(53:02):
and lives like okay, well, at least promise me that
you'll all get counseling, and Molly's like, we don't need
your help.

Speaker 3 (53:08):
Talk to you never, bye forever.

Speaker 1 (53:10):
And then the next morning, the mom is up to
get Sam up for school.

Speaker 3 (53:14):
She goes into his room. It's like six thirty.

Speaker 1 (53:16):
She's lying and he's lying in bed, looking traumatized, just
generally traumatized.

Speaker 3 (53:21):
She's like, you don't have to go to school today,
but he's like really.

Speaker 1 (53:24):
And at first he's like, oh really, and she's like, yeah,
you don't have to go, and he goes, no, I
want to go.

Speaker 3 (53:29):
I want to go. And then now they're.

Speaker 1 (53:31):
All at the breakfast table, huge apartment again massive, and
they're at this like long breakfast table for four people
talking about baseball practice and Molly's like, maybe I can
pick you guys up after practice and we can go
to shake Shack, and the Dad's like, Molly, they're teenagers,
not toddlers, and it's like, yeah, actually toddlers hate shake Shack,
you rapist fuck Like, like I guess because she's offering

(53:52):
to pick them up, and they're like, we could take
the subway, mom, we're men. And so this breakfast is
really fucking tense. Like Sam is picking up oja to
drink it and his hand is fucking trembling. It's really
really tense. Everyone seems like they're walking on eggshells over
the dead. They're trying to make sure Sam's like not
gonna lose it. Brian and Sam are now walking into
school and Brian's like, just keep your head down, don't

(54:13):
say shit to anyone, text me if you need me.
I don't care that the school has no phone rules.
Don't be a pussy and just use your phone. I'll
protect you. I won't let anything bad happen to you
ever again. So that's an admission from the Sun the
other son that something bad happens. He's like, I'm not
gonna let anything happen you ever again. So now Sam
walks into school and it's like whether it's true or

(54:35):
not because I can't tell whether people at school knew
what was happening because his name would have been kept
out of the papers if he's a minor, right, but
the dad's.

Speaker 3 (54:44):
Name probably would have been.

Speaker 1 (54:47):
People would have been talking. So he walks into school.
It's like, you can he probably missed school to testify.
I don't know, right, It's like, my thing is, you
wouldn't send a kid back to that school at all,
like they would start a new school, they would go
to like a new life, you know what I mean.
You couldn't send your kid back to school after he
has stood trial in a case about he's dad raping him.
So anyway, Sam walks into school. He feels everybody looking

(55:10):
at him, like all these heads are turning. People are
like looking at him. Long stairs. A friend, Yeah, like
the girlfriend girl is there and she's looking at him,
and then she walks up to him and she's like saying,
such a baby face.

Speaker 2 (55:22):
Like that's the thing. Like the cast sing in this
is so good? Do you really feel for this boy
and the abuse?

Speaker 3 (55:27):
It just sucks.

Speaker 2 (55:28):
It really is like an upsetting Yeah, great, role, great role.

Speaker 3 (55:33):
He's you know, smashed it. Yeah, he does really really
great work in this.

Speaker 1 (55:38):
And his the girlfriend girl walks up to him and
is like Sam, Sam, and he just ignores her and
he just stands in the doorway staring.

Speaker 3 (55:44):
And so then all the kids have entered the school
and he's.

Speaker 1 (55:47):
Just staring there and he's got his baseball bag over
his shoulder and then he like holds the baseball bag like.

Speaker 3 (55:53):
A gun and you're like fuck.

Speaker 1 (55:55):
And then he walks into school and there's a big
wide shot of the school and we hear gunshots and
screams and that's the credits. So obviously this episode comes
out in twenty eighteen, were almost twenty years past the
epidemic of school shootings, you know what I mean, Like
the column mine was in ninety nine, So any of
us watching this show are like, we know what's happening, right,

(56:18):
Like everyone is flooding out of the school.

Speaker 3 (56:21):
They're getting the breakdown.

Speaker 1 (56:23):
Single shooter, male semi automatic hunting rifle, at least six victims.
The principals there says the shooter just kept shooting with
this dead look in his eye, and they're like, who
was it?

Speaker 3 (56:33):
And she's like.

Speaker 1 (56:34):
Sam Conway is the shooter, which of course we know,
but Live and Rollins are like, what like the fact
that they would get a call to that school about
a school shooting and not go immediately it's Sam Conway,
Like you should know what's happening.

Speaker 3 (56:45):
It's like the day after the trial.

Speaker 1 (56:47):
So now Careesi and Finn are talking to Brian and
he's like, I don't know where Sam is. I don't
know where he is because apparently they found his gun,
but he's escaped somehow. He got out in the flood
of students, like he just kind of blended inside.

Speaker 3 (57:00):
How An escaped.

Speaker 1 (57:01):
So now Brian said what he saw was Sam shooting,
and he went up to him and said, what the
hell are you doing?

Speaker 3 (57:08):
Sam?

Speaker 1 (57:08):
Just stop it totally what you'd say to your brother
while he's shooting up at school. And then Sam just
said are you happy now? And then he said Sam
also kept saying I need to concentrate. You don't concentrate,
you lose the game, which is yeah, kind of a disturbing,
you know thing to be whispering to.

Speaker 3 (57:27):
Yourself as you are shooting up a school.

Speaker 1 (57:29):
So Careese says that makes Caresy remember all their sports
chats and he goes, I know where to find Sam.
Thinn goes tell ESU and Cariese goes, no, they're going
to kill him like on site, and Finn goes, maybe
they should, which is a bit of a hearkening back
to Finn from older days, like Finn used to be
very black and white. But it's like Finn, you know,
this is a traumatized kid whose father sexually assaulted him.

Speaker 3 (57:52):
Like, let's give.

Speaker 1 (57:53):
Him a small, tiny, teeny break, you know, even though
a school shooting is obviously horrific, but maybe let's not
shoot him on site. And so Careesy finds Sam at
the same baseball field where they had their chats before.
Cariese identifies himself and is like, hands where I can
see him. Sam stands up and he has a handgun
and he's got it to his head and he's just

(58:14):
going just let me die.

Speaker 3 (58:15):
I don't deserve to live.

Speaker 1 (58:16):
I don't deserve to eat chocolate chip waffles or play
baseball or kiss girls, and Cariesy tries to convince him, like,
you don't do that, that's taking the easy way out.
He's kind of appealing to, like his sense of masculinity,
that's been like fucking beaten into him, and he's like,
that's not justice for your friends. And he tries to
convince him also that it will be really mean for

(58:37):
your dad for you to kill yourself, like your dad's
really worried about you. And he's like, you talk to
my dad and he's like, yeah, he's super worried, man,
and you're definitely gonna send him the message that you
hate him.

Speaker 3 (58:47):
And he's like, no, I don't hate him. I love him.

Speaker 1 (58:49):
And it's like this kid is so gone, Like even
after he's done all this, even after he's seen like
what has turned him into a monster, he's still like,
my dad's the fucking best and like it just you know,
it just shows you like this kind of conditioning from
an abusive parent can really be hard to unravel from.
And anyway, care he starts putting the gun down a

(59:10):
little bit, Caresy tackles into the ground, gets the gun,
and Sam's yelling.

Speaker 3 (59:14):
I should have just shot the rabbit. I should have
just shot the rabbit. And he's crying. So we're not
letting go of this rabbit.

Speaker 1 (59:20):
It's a real metaphor, and live is now filling in stone.

Speaker 3 (59:24):
Two kids died in the shooting.

Speaker 1 (59:26):
They were dead on arrival, Heather Lewis, age sixteen, and
Justin Cruz, age seventeen. Five victims total, four were students,
one is in critical condition, and one was a teacher.
So they did say six victims earlier. It is six victims.
Oh no, it's not.

Speaker 3 (59:45):
It's five. It's five victims, but they said six earlier.

Speaker 1 (59:47):
Anyway, he only fired thirteen shots, but that gun holds
a ton of rounds, which is kind of wild, and
they're like yeah. Also, the saving grease was that he's
also a bad shot, like, you know, he doesn't shoot well.
So and he also had a handgun that he never fired,
and the mom swears that both guns were locked in
a gun safe, So I guess he figured out the combo.

(01:00:09):
He wasn't aiming at anyone specific. And Stone's like yeah,
because he wasn't trying to Like, this wasn't like kids
bullied me and I'm getting back at them.

Speaker 3 (01:00:18):
This is like my dad.

Speaker 1 (01:00:20):
I want to show my dad that I can like
shoot things, and uh so it's about the dad. So
then John Conway shows up with his lawyer and has
the nerve to scream at Stone.

Speaker 3 (01:00:30):
He's like, where's my boy? And the lawyer is.

Speaker 1 (01:00:32):
Trying to say that nothing that the kids said without
counsel is admissible, but they're like, dog, he already confessed
and he has. There are dozens of eyewitnesses like, you
need to actually sit down. You won a very improbable
case and you should just take it and leave it.
At that moment, they obviously marched Sam right past his
dad and he's profusely apologizing like sorry, I'm sorry, and

(01:00:53):
his dad just fucking backhands him and yells, what did
you do? And then he blames the cops for putting
sick ideas in his son's head, and that the sick
ideas that aren't true is what made him shoot up
a school. So they escort the dad out. They're like,
get him out of it, Liz like, get this man
out of my precinct. So we cut to Stone definitely

(01:01:15):
handling the stress in a healthy way. He is back
at a bar watching the school shooting coverage on TV
and live tracks him down through his assistant. The updates
are that Sam has pleaded not guilty, which means Stone
is like, I might have to take this kid to trial,
and they're like, and now he's at a juvenile.

Speaker 2 (01:01:33):
Not guilty though, like reason of insand like we know
you did it, like it is leading, not guilty, it
is wild.

Speaker 3 (01:01:40):
I don't know. Yeah, maybe he was trying to do
a mental disease or defect. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:01:46):
But he's at a juvenile facility now under suicide watch,
and Stone is punishing himself. He's like, I shouldn't have
cross examined him at the trial. I should have seen
how damaged he was and lives like, yeah, his dad
raped him, that's why he's damage. And he's like yeah,
and then I did it all over again on the
witness stand, Like I didn't even think his cross examination
was like that wild.

Speaker 3 (01:02:06):
I've seen them be way worse to people, but to victims.
But Stone's blaming himself.

Speaker 1 (01:02:11):
So now Caresie and Rolins are chatting at the juvenile
facility and she's explaining to Kreesee how stressful it is
having kids, like you just worry about them constantly.

Speaker 3 (01:02:21):
It's like breathing underwater.

Speaker 1 (01:02:23):
And she's getting really emotional imagining like this happening to
one of her kids. And I can't tell if she's
imagining them getting shot at school or them being a
school shooter. But she's getting very emotional and like starting
to cry, and the States psych for Sam Conway comes in.
It's doctor Lisa Abernathy. This is her first episode, but
she's also Lisa Abernathy returns in the episode Exile and

(01:02:44):
the episode Caretaker. And this actress Sandrine Holt was in
episode seven, was in season seventeen in the episode Fashionable Crimes.
I know her from Mister Robot. She's only in two episodes,
but she's very memorable and she's in tons of stuff.
She was in Maguyvers series and all kinds of other crap.
So they ask, where's doctor Olivett, which, if you know

(01:03:07):
your Law and Order, doctor Olivett is like an og
Law and Order character. She's a child psychologist in episodes
of regular original Recipe back in like the Jerry Orbach days,
and she's done some crossover into SPU as well.

Speaker 3 (01:03:22):
And doctor Olivett blessed her.

Speaker 1 (01:03:23):
Heart is at a wedding in Tuscany and that's why
doctor Aberhathy is there Tuscany.

Speaker 3 (01:03:28):
Cool.

Speaker 1 (01:03:28):
Yeah, So now she goes, let's talk about Sam, and
then we see her session with Sam and he asks like,
do you have kids? Because if you have kids. I
know you already hate me. And she's like, I don't
hate you. And she says, but my wife and I
have a boy and a girl, and he's like I
think he picks up, like he's like, oh, well, you.

Speaker 3 (01:03:48):
Know you're gay.

Speaker 1 (01:03:49):
My dad told everyone that I'm gay, but I'm not.
And then he's like, my dad is a good dad.
He looks out for us. And then she's like, tell
me a memory about your dad. And the first memory
he goes to being four years old and putting his
one of his little toy soldiers they're sword into an
electrical outlet and his dad whipping him with a belt

(01:04:10):
for doing that, and he's like, it hurt and I
was crying, but you know what, I never forgot and
I never did it again.

Speaker 3 (01:04:18):
And it's wild.

Speaker 1 (01:04:20):
But now we're in a large group walk and talk
outside and we're moving fast and furious. It's Abernathy Stone
live Finn and they're walking four across Sex in the
city style and they are on the move. Okay, they
have no time, and she goes, I don't think Sam
is insane, and I don't think he was insane at
the time of the shooting. He knew it was wrong,

(01:04:40):
he knew the consequences. He feels remorse. He grew up
in a traditional male household, but to the extreme like
and Stone is like, oh, like you gotta kill animals,
you don't cry, You got to tough it out. She's
like yeah, basically. And then they're like, will you testify,
and she goes, I will, but I really hope I
don't have to, because this boy is on the verge
of collapse. So now we're back at Stone office and

(01:05:00):
the Conways are waiting there and they let Stone know, listen,
Sam's decided to plead guilty. They think going through the
trial would be wrong for the families, and then he
says like, we take responsibility for Sam's actions and we
don't really want to put anyone through any more pain.
And they're like, really, this is Sam's decision. They're like, yep,
we've all decided as a family and this is the thing.

(01:05:22):
And they're like, how long will he be in prison?
The mom asks and Stone goes, well, he'll likely be
tried as an adult and the time will be substantial.

Speaker 3 (01:05:29):
And they're like all right, well, thanks, nice doing business
with you.

Speaker 1 (01:05:32):
And then John Conway goes to shake Stone's hand, and
Stone stone walls him. He's like, absolutely not, am I
touching your psychotic rapist hand for a handshake.

Speaker 3 (01:05:40):
And it's pretty satisfying to see that.

Speaker 1 (01:05:43):
Yeah, to have that man be like completely denied, like
especially by another masculine man like man to man, this
guy's just like fucking rejecting him and I like that.

Speaker 3 (01:05:52):
So Live is pretty pissed.

Speaker 1 (01:05:53):
She's like, so now Sam's gonna go to jail for
life and the dad's just gonna walk And Stone's like,
hell no, this ain't over, not by a long shot.
So now Stone is at the juvenile facility talking to Sam,
and Sam's like in a little yellow juvenile facility jumpsuit,
and he's finality is fully different, Like yeah, he has
like a new swagger about him. Yes, yes, Juvie has

(01:06:15):
toughened him up real quick, and he's like, listen, he's
like a cool.

Speaker 3 (01:06:20):
I don't know, like suddenly he was he became really cool. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:06:24):
Yeah, I know it's fucked up to say, but he's
just like he knows there's no future and I don't know,
they're just a new vibe to him.

Speaker 1 (01:06:31):
Yeah, because I think he's like giving it up, he's
given up. He's like, my life is over. Basically, I'm
just gonna like rot in jail for the rest of
my life.

Speaker 3 (01:06:37):
And he's like Stone reminds him.

Speaker 1 (01:06:39):
He's like, you are going to go to prison and
maybe for the rest of your life. And he's like, yep,
it's my decision and not my dad's, and I want
you to leave. And as soon as Stone walks away,
Sam just launches into a story about one of his victims.
Like Stone walks away, and he goes Heather Lewis. I
went to a party at her house and she played
Rihanna all night. I'm like, oh, so she was really cool,
Like that's cool, that's fun that she was.

Speaker 3 (01:07:00):
Playing Rihann all night. We love Rihanna.

Speaker 1 (01:07:02):
And then he goes Justin Cruz. I didn't really know him,
but apparently he was a math genius and he had
a little sister. She was only five. So he's acting
more hard, but he is like you could tell he's
like fucked up that he like realizes he took two
people's lives, you know, and he's obviously very sad.

Speaker 2 (01:07:18):
He knows he has to plead guilty, Like he doesn't
even knows what he did was wrong.

Speaker 1 (01:07:23):
Yeah, and I think a little bit of the shit,
like there's a little bit of like chips.

Speaker 3 (01:07:29):
And the armor happening.

Speaker 1 (01:07:30):
Like he's like, yeah, my mom went to the funerals
and no one even looked at her, Like I don't
think he likes that his mom is being outcast because
of something he did, which is because of something the
dad did, you know. And Stone apologizes and suddenly Sam's
all agro and he goes, don't you know only pussy's
apologize and he tells Stone, you know, I didn't even
want to go to school that day, and his dad

(01:07:51):
pushed him. No excuses, no regrets. Men look to the future,
not the past, he said. His dad said to him,
I don't even know why I bothered. I guess I
was a waste of his time because it didn't work,
Like it was a waste of his time to rape
his son because he still didn't turn into a man.

Speaker 2 (01:08:09):
He didn't then kill a bunny like yeah, yeah, yeah,
I just don't even get what you want from this
kid to I know, shall what be the worst person ever?

Speaker 3 (01:08:18):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:08:19):
And Stone goes, oh, so right after your dad was
a complete fucking asshole to you the morning after the
trial and you had to go to school.

Speaker 3 (01:08:27):
Uh, and force you to go to school?

Speaker 1 (01:08:29):
Stone is like, is that when you put the rifle
in your bat baseball bag? And the guy the kid's like,
I gotta go, Like they only give us a little
bit of time outside and he walks away, and so
Stone calls live immediately and is like, I want to
go after the dad. I want to go after John Conway.
So we cut to the mom. We cut to the
mom downing a pill with a gloss of white wine. Okay,
so she's she's in it, okay, And she visits Sam,

(01:08:53):
she says every day for one hour, and she seems
like unraveled and fully unhinged. And John's just she goes.
They're like, what about you, husb, Because Sam just like.

Speaker 2 (01:09:01):
I obviously he's just like a regressive psychopathmaniac. But it's like,
what did the dad want with these sons? Just to
be hyper masculine dickheads, just like to hit women, kill
animals and never apologize and be good as for I
don't get that then you'd be happy or would you
just keep picking and picking like it's it's insane, right?

Speaker 3 (01:09:22):
I mean, yeah, no, a dad like this would never be.

Speaker 1 (01:09:25):
Happy you could get varsity if you're not like making
major League Baseball, you're not. And then even then if
you're not in the Hall of Fame, you know what
I mean, Like, this guy would keep raising the bar
like but the mom says, oh, John's just kind of
ignoring it, you know, stiff upper lip and all that,
like that's how he was raised, and Live tells her, well,

(01:09:45):
we think he should be prosecuted for creating an environment
where Sam believed that shooting is what makes you a man.

Speaker 3 (01:09:51):
And the mom is like screaming.

Speaker 1 (01:09:52):
She's like, oh does that help Sam? These dead teenagers
and lives, Like what about your other son, your other
son who lives in your home in is seventeen, And
she's freaking out and is like, this, all this happened
because I went against my husband. That's probably what he
told her, and like just the mere fact of going
against your husband's word brought all this devastation upon your family.

(01:10:13):
And she's like and I'm like, personally, I think this
man would kill her, Like I think the minute she testify,
this man would kill her. Figure out a way to
kill her, figure out a way to cover it up,
or make it look like an accident or a suicide
or something like that, like this man would kill her.
She regrets not keeping him home from school that day,
and she's like, all my husband wants wife.

Speaker 2 (01:10:31):
It's like, yeah, you would definitely kill this woman. But
also all you do is preach all this masculinity shit,
like why wouldn't your kid think that they're school shooting
was the way to do it? Yeah, it is all
the things that you talked about, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:10:44):
Right right, yeah, just like to I mean, and this
kid like loves animals, so maybe he's just like, yeah,
my dad wants me to take lives and he's not
even like, you know, make equating a difference to it.
But all her husband wants, she says, is for their
boys to become men.

Speaker 3 (01:11:00):
That's all he wants. That's all he wants. Is that
so much? Is that too much to ask? He just
wants them to be men? Oh? Gross? Anyway, as I
bought my son three.

Speaker 1 (01:11:10):
Dresses for his birthday this year, I would say I'm
not relating to this style of parenting.

Speaker 3 (01:11:15):
Now.

Speaker 1 (01:11:15):
Now, Rollins have been our talking to the brother Brian,
who's still claiming that the dad rules, and you know,
they never get to the bottom of whether anything like
this happened to Brian, Like I'm sure Brian was also assaulted,
but they never really get to it in the episode.
Unless Brian is just more hyper masculine by nature and
like you know, was always down with the stuff his
dad told him to do, so we never had to be.

Speaker 3 (01:11:36):
Quote unquote punished.

Speaker 1 (01:11:37):
But he claims in this conversation we were always treated
the same growing up. And he's like, and I never
shot anyone, And he's like, I should have known that
Sam was going to do something like that.

Speaker 3 (01:11:47):
And he's really upset.

Speaker 1 (01:11:48):
He's and he's blaming himself, like everyone's blaming himself in
the don't accept the person who's responsible.

Speaker 3 (01:11:54):
And he's upset the sun and.

Speaker 1 (01:11:56):
Like Rollins has her hand on his shoulder and he
just shoves her hand off, and like, I wonder if
that was like improvised or whatever, because Rollins looks truly shocked.
She's like, men love my hands on their shoulder. She's like,
why are you taking my hand off your shoulder? But
he's like, my friends are dead, my mom's a mess,
my brother's in jail forever. And he's like, this is
all your guy's fault and you should blame yourself.

Speaker 3 (01:12:17):
So maybe he doesn't blame himself.

Speaker 1 (01:12:19):
He really thinks it's the cops, but lives breaking it
down now for Stone, Molly Conway isn't talking, she'll lie
if you subpoena her, and lives like, I kind of
don't blame her. She's like at the end of her rope.
And Brian's like lost his brother. He's not gonna lose
his dad too.

Speaker 3 (01:12:34):
Anyway. That just leaves Sam.

Speaker 1 (01:12:35):
So Sam's the only one that could possibly aid in
this trial going anywhere. So now they go and they
find John Conway and obviously he's at the shooting range
where he probably has like a raging boner in his
pants while he's target shooting, and.

Speaker 3 (01:12:50):
They bring him in for murder.

Speaker 1 (01:12:51):
So now Stone is talking to Conway and his lawyer again,
and who goes, are you guys kidding me? My yoga's what?
My wife's yoga pants don't stretch this much? And you
know you got it? That feels like an old school
style joke for the show. And I got a hand
it to them, And Stone explains the situation using a
metaphor about pit bulls. He goes, you know pitbulls actually
make very good pets. It's their owners who turn them

(01:13:13):
into killers. He's like, you fail to perceive a substantial
and justifiable risk that he would harm others, and then
that led to a crime, and those things together are
criminally negligent homicide.

Speaker 3 (01:13:24):
And so he goes, are you saying I didn't bring
my boy up right? It's like, are you kid? Like
that's where you're going at.

Speaker 1 (01:13:31):
Nobody not like I don't think that there's a ton
of parents of school shooters who are like, we did
everything correctly. There's no parents in the world that say
we did everything correctly. But this man is like, I'm
perfect and I did nothing wrong. And his lawyer calls
it a snowflake defense. Daddy made me do it, and
they just walk out. Rollins and Live are chatting about

(01:13:51):
the case in the breakroom. Rollins thinks that under Stone's
logic that they the cops are responsible for what Sam
did is well, we also knew that he could commit
something like this. We saw that he was upset and damaged,
like then the onus would be on us as well,
and Lives like, yeah, but we didn't put guns in
his apartment and Rollin's like, but this kid would have

(01:14:12):
found another weapon. She's really trying the guns don't kill people,
people kill people argument with Olivia, and then Lives like,
don't go all Second Amendment on me, and then she goes,
I just want to know why Roe versus Wade as sacrisanct.
This is Rolin's I just want to know why Roe
versus Wade is sacriscanct and the Second Amendment is disposable.
It's like she's being so Georgia right now, and Live

(01:14:33):
goes because one kills one kills and Rolind goes, well
in Georgia, they both do. So now it's like this,
this gun control situation is now turning into a abortion
like situation, and Rollins wants to know what do you
think is worse having your kid killed or having your
kid be the one who kills someone, and Live can't

(01:14:55):
believe that Rollins might be thinking of having a gasp
abortion like. Rollins iss like, I don't know if I
need another baby. I don't know if I want another baby.
She said, if I was back home, this would be
easier because I wouldn't have a choice. Could I would
just have to have this baby. And then Live takes
Rollin's her, takes her phone and shows her a video
of Jesse, and I really hate it when Live goes

(01:15:16):
so pro life like Rollins is a cop who works constantly.
The dad is like a sociopathic cheater who lies to
her face. I think she's an excellent candidate for an abortion.
To be honest, like she already has like a young
child at home. It's not like she's never going to
have her chance to be a mom and Lives like, listen,
I will defact she anyway. She shows her this video

(01:15:37):
and goes, you told me that was the best day
of your life, and it's like, okay, yeah, there's a
lot of cute videos of your kids. First of all,
having a second kid is very is much harder than
having one. And then like you know, we all know,
Rollins goes on to have three. How it's happening as
a fully working cop, I'll never know. And she's a
professor now too, well, now she's a professor. Yeah, and
hopefully she's getting child support from both of these dads.

(01:15:59):
To be honest, so Lives like, I will defend your
debt to the death, your right to make this decision.
But also She's like, you basically will regret this abortion
and you'll have to live with it forever and that
will be terrible. Like so lives like, so you had one,
you had an abortion, And Live's face gets really serious
and she walks away, And I don't know if we

(01:16:19):
ever find the truth out about this, if she's had one.

Speaker 3 (01:16:22):
No, But.

Speaker 1 (01:16:25):
It's like Live is okay with a kid getting an abortion,
like an underage person who's been assaulted, but like a
grown woman.

Speaker 2 (01:16:32):
There's like that thirteen year old that was gonna have
a kid, and she's like, you'll figure it out.

Speaker 3 (01:16:36):
Yeah, you'll have fun.

Speaker 2 (01:16:38):
She is like pro life, like, sorry, it's the truth.

Speaker 3 (01:16:41):
No, she'll fight for the right.

Speaker 1 (01:16:42):
She's pro choice, but she's anti abortion. She doesn't like
she would never choose it for herself or her loved ones.

Speaker 3 (01:16:48):
I would say maybe she did. We don't know. She
just you know, she just well she alluded that she yeah, shit, Or.

Speaker 2 (01:16:54):
Did they want to make it like a great what
do you think the right? You know, like do they
not want to know us? Or she just doesn't want
to say no, because then sounds.

Speaker 1 (01:17:02):
Like a question we have to ask Mauritia Cahrgate one
day because that is really interesting.

Speaker 3 (01:17:06):
Oh my god, that would be crazy. First question, so,
has lived had an abortion?

Speaker 1 (01:17:11):
Well, because I mean, like we know she we know
that the actress in real life too, is religious but
also pro choice, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:17:18):
So yeah, anyway.

Speaker 2 (01:17:20):
And she's captain here now, right, Yeah, because that's another
thing because I was also thinking, like with her getting
winded and stuff, like maybe in the last step. You know,
it's the two parter, but it is this thing of like,
I don't know, Craigan wasn't on the scene of every crime. Yeah,
if you're in charge of the whole department, like Craigan
was in the office, like you've.

Speaker 1 (01:17:41):
He's actually not captain yet she becomes she's lieutenant, and
she becomes the captain in twenty one, season twenty one, damn,
and this is season twenty so she's lieutenant even when
she season twenty one, even when she's captain, she's on
the scene because she's the star of the fucking show.
But Craigan does show up to a lot of crime scenes,
just not every single one.

Speaker 2 (01:18:00):
You're right, you are right, But he's also not doing
the running and the stuff, like it is kind we do.

Speaker 1 (01:18:05):
Not see Cragan running after a perp. We do not
see that.

Speaker 3 (01:18:09):
It's like, give yourself some grace, girl.

Speaker 1 (01:18:12):
So back in court, the dad is on the stand
and he's talking about how he treats his boys the
exact same and he just wanted them to be tough
so the world wouldn't chew them up and spit them out.
And he tries to paint himself as the best dad ever.
You know, some guys they get home from work and
they're just too tired, But not me. I take my
kids to the park and I play ball with them,
I take them hunting and fishing, and can someone explain

(01:18:35):
to me what is so wrong about wanting your boys
to grow up to be men. And now it's Stone's turn,
and he's like he's got bad dad, like bragging about
his kids making varsity and saying men shouldn't be afraid
to shoot rabbits.

Speaker 3 (01:18:48):
But then he starts some shit with Stone on the stand.

Speaker 2 (01:18:51):
You know, they shouldn't be scared, but it's like what
if they don't want to? Yeah, like that's never crossed
his mind where it's like we should be and it's
like okay, but then the other people should be able
to do what they want and your son didn't want
to fucking hunt.

Speaker 3 (01:19:02):
Yeah, and of the fucking day you piece right.

Speaker 2 (01:19:05):
Shit. I just hate that he is not even questioning
himself once.

Speaker 3 (01:19:09):
Ray Ray right, it is. Yeah, honestly, he infuriated me
this much.

Speaker 2 (01:19:12):
And in his Annihilation episode too, he really pisses me off. Yeah, yeah,
I get actor because I fucking hate his guts.

Speaker 3 (01:19:20):
Yes, yeah, he sucks.

Speaker 1 (01:19:23):
And what's crazy is in Niptuck he's like the likable
one for most of it and his partner is like
the asshole and their partners at like a they do
plastic surgery. But uh, he's kind of the likable, like
good guy with like a wife and a family, and
then of course, like his life gets sucked up as
the show goes on. But he's not a sociopath the
way he is in all these other shows we see

(01:19:44):
him in, or at least in this one, both.

Speaker 3 (01:19:45):
Of his roles.

Speaker 1 (01:19:47):
He so this dad starts to try to like start
some shit with Stone, and Stone serves it like right
back to him and is like, you would say, I
have balls, right, and not having balls is the worst
thing a man can have, So I'd be like a
girl because being a woman is the world worst thing
a man can be like, and like, are you proud
of how your son has like the lifelong shame of
never being able to live up to your his dad's

(01:20:07):
perverse sense of manhood, because there's nothing worse than being
a little girl. And you know we just the dad's
kind of like just stunned on the stand. But afterwards,
Stone's telling Live it didn't go great in court today,
I'm gonna have to call Sam as a rebuttal witness.
So even after he's like why did I cross examine
this kid, He's like, get him back on the stand.

Speaker 3 (01:20:25):
I need to get this dad.

Speaker 1 (01:20:26):
So you know, all that drinking is really making him
forget a lot of his guilt. So now top of
the final act, Sam is on the stand and now
his head is shaved, so shit's gotten crazy at Juvie.
So then he gets Sam to testify to like what
would happen if your dad was ever unhappy with you?

Speaker 3 (01:20:43):
Like what would he do?

Speaker 1 (01:20:44):
And he's like, he'd call me a baby, a pussy
and f the F word slur And after he wouldn't
shoot the rabbit, he told him that until further notice,
he was a little girl and that he was gonna
call him Samantha, and he threw one of his wife's
dresses at Sam and told him to wear it. And
then he goes, what were you thinking about before you
shot your schoolmates?

Speaker 3 (01:21:04):
Like, what were you thinking?

Speaker 1 (01:21:05):
And he goes, I was thinking, be a man, and
he goes a voice was saying that over and over
in his head.

Speaker 3 (01:21:10):
Be a man, Be a man.

Speaker 1 (01:21:11):
And then he gets up and he screams at his
dad and goes, and I didn't flinch. How's that, dad,
I didn't flinch. Am I a man now? And it's like, wow, fuck,
Finally this kid is at least standing up for himself,
you know, and advocating for how fucking psycho his dad
was closing arguments, the defense is up first, going my
client and put the gun in his hand, he didn't

(01:21:32):
pull the trigger.

Speaker 3 (01:21:33):
And if we all start.

Speaker 1 (01:21:34):
Taking responsibility for the act of our kids, we better
all start losing weight because it's going to be a
tight squeeze in Attica. And now it's Stone's turn, and
he's pointing out that John wasn't preaching strength to his kids.
He was preaching power over others, which isn't being a man,
it's being a criminal.

Speaker 3 (01:21:51):
And the jury they agree.

Speaker 1 (01:21:54):
They find him guilty of criminally negligent homicide. The lawyer
looks pissed, but it's like, you did win very obvious
case of incest rape. But Brian and Molly are stunned,
the wife and the older brother, and now that's kind
of the end of that story. The final beat of
the episode is We're at Olivia's apartment and she's talking

(01:22:14):
to that little shit Noah and it's time for bed
and he doesn't want to go to bed, and he
shoves Olivia backwards and she is gagged. She is like, Noah,
never do that again. Get in your bed right now.
She's like so shocked, she's lost her breath, like she's
out of breath about like him shoving her. And he

(01:22:34):
looks like he's like eight here, seven or eight. And
I'm sorry to call him a little shit. You know,
I obviously love baby Noah. I just don't love this
iteration of Noah. And she tells him we're going to
talk about this in the morning. And then even though
they're in a fight, she kisses him good night and
says I love you to him anyway, and then he

(01:22:56):
doesn't say it back, and so she goes Noah, I
love you and he says nothing, And that's dick Wolf baby.

Speaker 3 (01:23:03):
Crazy episode. It is weird end, Yeah, weird end.

Speaker 1 (01:23:08):
I think they're trying to sow the seeds for shit
of like, is violence inherent in you, if you're if
you come from violent people, and like because Johnny d
is his.

Speaker 3 (01:23:18):
Dad and you know, like all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:23:21):
But who knows. Also, no one needs some no one
needs some discipline. He's acting like an asshole. Maybe he's
pissed she didn't come to her his game where he
almost hit.

Speaker 3 (01:23:32):
A home run. Sad episode.

Speaker 1 (01:23:36):
Yeah, And I'm sure the true crimes are going to
be really fun and happy, go lucky.

Speaker 3 (01:23:39):
So I'm glad you're here. All right, Well, I'll flow
right in.

Speaker 2 (01:23:50):
So I feel like we all know about the Michigan
case that is like famous, but that's you know, years
after this episode.

Speaker 3 (01:23:58):
Which I couldn't believe. I looked it up. I couldn't
believe it.

Speaker 2 (01:24:01):
Yeah, a lot of and a lot of the like
court stuff happens like years and years after a lot
of these shootings as well. So that case, it was
Ethan Crumbly and he was fifteen at the time and
it was Oxford High School November twenty twenty one. Four
people were dead and seven injured, and he pled guilty
to twenty four charges and was sentenced to life without
the possibility of parole. And then his parents, James and Jennifer,

(01:24:24):
were convicted of involuntary manslaughter and were the first parents
in the country to be directly found responsible for the
deaths caused by a child in a mass shooting.

Speaker 3 (01:24:35):
But I believe in that.

Speaker 2 (01:24:37):
I'm like, yeah, I hope that was like a case
that can continue, like has influence. Well, hopefully school shooting stop,
but I hope parents are held responsible.

Speaker 1 (01:24:48):
I feel very confident saying that because I know I'm
not gonna have a gun in my house. You know,
Like I feel very confident being like, yes, punish me
if my kid gets a gun that I helped them
get and they commit a school shooting that I facilitate anyway,
I'm responsible. But I know that will never happen because
I'm not a gun person. You know, like you're you
if you are pissed about that, then it's like you

(01:25:09):
know that there's a possibility your kids can get their
hands on your guns.

Speaker 2 (01:25:12):
Yeah, and in twenty eighteen, so you know the Washington Post,
we don't really go it was, but you could go
on this article, so I do wonder, are free exciting
when what's going on? But in it they write, since
nineteen eighty nine, children have committed one hundred and forty
five school shootings, and in one hundred and five cases,
the weapons source was identified and eighty percent of those

(01:25:34):
were taken from home or relatives or friends. Yeah so yeah,
but then you know, since but that was in twenty eighteen,
and only four adults have been convicted for failing to
lock up guns used.

Speaker 3 (01:25:46):
Like according to the whatever study that they were using.
So it's weird, like in this case, they don't even
go after that fact. They don't even go.

Speaker 1 (01:25:54):
After the fact that they had access, they gave him
access to the guns. They're really going after the fact
that he created a toxic environment in the episode, you.

Speaker 2 (01:26:03):
Know, pushed him to the brink and write, Yeah, so
I'm going to go over a few that could have
inspired this, even though the cases, some of them happened
after the episode. But anyways, so this is a Santa
Fe High school shooting, but it's Santa Fe, Texas. A
seventeen year old killed eight students and two teachers in
twenty eighteen and left thirteen wounded. His name was Demetrius

(01:26:29):
pet Pagortsis, and he confessed to the rampage and the Parkland,
Florida shooting happened in the same month as this shooting,
So it just fucked.

Speaker 1 (01:26:39):
That is so crazy because it's like the Santa fe
one doesn't even like ring a bell to me, and
it's probably because because I was like.

Speaker 3 (01:26:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:26:48):
The jury found the parents not financially liable or guilty
for their child's crime in twenty twenty four, so that's
when the trial finally concluded. The verdict was reached after
day of deliberations after a three week trial. But this
is one of the first attempted to hold parents accountable
in civil court for the actions of their childs in
a school shooting.

Speaker 1 (01:27:06):
They felt, oh, it wasn't even criminal court, it was
civil court.

Speaker 3 (01:27:09):
Huh. They just wow.

Speaker 2 (01:27:12):
They felt it was the fault of the child and
with the company. That's so the jury thought it was
the fault of the child and then the company that
sold him ammunition in the shooting. So they did find
this ammunition company guilty, but the jury did award hundreds
and millions of dollars in damages to the plaintiffs.

Speaker 3 (01:27:30):
Lucky Gunner.

Speaker 2 (01:27:30):
The ammunition company sold him the ammunition at a time
when he was legally barred from purchasing it, and they
settled with the plaintiffs before the trial even began. So
since this company settled, they don't have to pay a
portion of the damages awarded by this jury. But the
gunmen also can't pay, like they're poor. Yeah, so it
really doesn't matter. I'm really confused about these juries that
are like, well, this much, and it's like okay, well

(01:27:52):
now what right? Right? But this trial went down several
months after the Michigan couple was found guilty of that
I just talked about with involuntary manslaughter. But in that
case in Michigan and twenty twenty one, prosecutors were able
to prove that the parents ignored warning signs and failed
to lock up a handgun that was used by their.

Speaker 3 (01:28:13):
Son in the attack.

Speaker 2 (01:28:14):
So Antonius Pegwortsis and Rosemarie Cosmettos were not accused of
the crime, but the trial focused on whether they had
been negligent in the storage of more than a dozen
firearms in their home. Two of which were used in
the shooting, and had failed to notice their son was
struggling or to take steps to help him. The gunman, Dimitri,
was deemed mentally incompetent to stand trial in criminal court

(01:28:36):
and remains in a state hospital for mental health treatment.
Because there was no criminal trial, the people looked to
this civil trial as their first chance for accountability. Like
six years after the shooting, the parents refused any responsibility,
even though Clint Maguire, the lead attorney for the plaintiffs,
said in a closing argument that it was their son
under their roof with their guns.

Speaker 3 (01:28:56):
New York Times.

Speaker 1 (01:28:57):
Yeah, I feel like you go in this kind of case,
like they go after civil even though that people don't
have any money, just as like a deterrent maybe for
other parents, Like right, be like like if you do
have money and you're letting your kids get access to
your guns and they do something with them, like you
could lose five million dollars.

Speaker 3 (01:29:15):
Even those people don't have five million dollars. You know.

Speaker 2 (01:29:17):
It's more it seems like a count like you know,
just the victims want something, you know. It's how Benson
always says, like just standing up in court, right, but
they do garnish wages. So that's the other thing, and
I probably touched on this later, but one of the
other cases was talking about how even if they don't
have the money to pay this, they can't make money

(01:29:40):
off of it.

Speaker 3 (01:29:41):
So if they decide to sell their story or.

Speaker 2 (01:29:44):
A book or anything like, the money will go to
the victims, or if they somehow win the lottery or
something like that. So to have the money could be taken,
I guess yeah. But they both testify the parents they
did not see changes in his mental state or they
would have helped him. Expert witnesses for the defense testified
though that he was dealing with schizophrenia, manics, oppression, and

(01:30:06):
other mental illnesses. That he was having delusions and hallucinations,
which accluded that the CIA wanted him to be an assassin.
Yet they said that he kept his delusions a secret
and they had no idea. But you know, the parents
did not pull the trigger or give him the gun.
But it was yeah, so it was not found to
be on them. I'm glad the ammunition company, I guess settled.

(01:30:29):
Maybe it would have been better not to settle and
try him try them, because I bet that.

Speaker 3 (01:30:35):
Company could have afforded all that money. I don't know, Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:30:40):
So the next one is the Marysville Pilchuk High School shooting.
It's a town north of Seattle in Washington State. The
shooter's name is Jalen Freiberg. He was fifteen. He took
his father's handgun to school in his backpack and opened
fire on a group of classmates that he texted to
meet him.

Speaker 3 (01:30:57):
Oh my god. So he shot the.

Speaker 2 (01:31:00):
Five classmates, four fatally, and then turned the gun on himself.
Two of the victims were his cousins, Nate Hatch and
Andrew Freiberg. And you know, he was not a loner.
He was a popular football player. He was elected homecoming
prince his freshman year. And it was not random people,
It was not enemies. He texted and killed his friends
and family.

Speaker 3 (01:31:21):
Do they know why?

Speaker 2 (01:31:23):
A former teacher, Rick Iverson is quoted in The New
York Times saying this was an outgoing person that everyone
in the school loved. He was from a prominent family
on the Tululip Indian Reservation and had a good relationship
with his parents and brother, according to another tribal member,
But a few days before the shooting, his friend Josh
said that his demeanor did change and he wasn't doing

(01:31:45):
work and just had his headphones in and refused to
talk about it. And then when Josh asked him what's wrong,
he responded, it doesn't concern you. And that was to
the Times. A federal jury in Seattle convicted Raymond Freiberg
of illegally owning six firearms, including the Barretta that his
fourteen year old son used to kill the classmates and himself.

(01:32:05):
The jury deliberated for one day before reaching its verdict.
Freiberg was not charged in the shooting, but he was
sentenced to two years in prison for the illegal owning
so Illegally owning the guns got him prison time, but
not letting his fourteen year old child get to them,
yeah fuck because also the data had a prior restraining
order against him and so should have been prohibited from

(01:32:27):
buying the gun, but the order was never entered into
the federal database, and so he should not have been
buying these guns. So when he filled out the forms
for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, he
stated he had not been the subject of any court
order restraining him from harassed like the harassing, stocking, and
threatening of an intimate partner. So he didn't fill it

(01:32:49):
out correctly. So like, so he knew it, he knew
he had these restraining orders, and so like he filled
out the paperwork wrong. But I feel like the stores
should have been able to catch that, Like what the fuck?
But the dad got the gun January twenty thirteen, and
then the gun was used Oxtober twenty fourth, twenty fourteen

(01:33:09):
in the shooting. The case was investigated by the FBI
and the Tululab Tribal Police Department. It was prosecuted by
assistant Uist Attorneys.

Speaker 3 (01:33:18):
So that's that case.

Speaker 1 (01:33:19):
I wonder what happened to that kid, Like I wonder
what made him like a flip switch. I mean, he
might have been having like a mental health event or something,
but I wonder if it was something like, yeah, he
was assaulted or he was a victim in some kind
of way like in the episode.

Speaker 3 (01:33:36):
Because that's to.

Speaker 1 (01:33:37):
Go from like a happy, go lucky kid that everybody
in the school thinks is great to killing your friends
in like a premeditated attack.

Speaker 3 (01:33:44):
It's pretty wild.

Speaker 2 (01:33:46):
Yeah yeah, okay, Well onto the next. So Marshall County
High School shooting. This happened in Kentucky, January twenty eighteen.
Gabe Parker, fifteen, open fired in an open area of
the school. It was like a large hallway by the cafeteria.
Because that's something I read about too, where a lot

(01:34:06):
of these drills and protections in safety rely on the
kids being inside the classroom, and so like if it's
you know, free periods or launch or whatever, that's not
really a way to keep people safe. So two people
were killed and multiple students were injured. He killed Ryan
Cope and Bailey Holt, who were both fifteen years old,

(01:34:27):
and he used his stepfather's pistol. A civil lawsuit was filed.
In twenty nineteen, thirty six point seven million dollars was
awarded to the four victims of the Marshall County High
School shooting. Sheila high Stand, the legal rep for the victims,
doesn't think any of them will ever see the money
since the family does not have the cash. But like

(01:34:47):
I said, it's to stop the family from ever making
money off of it, or if any if they do
get any money, that the plaintiffs and must be compensated.
The judgment was against the shooter, Gabe Parker, his mother,
Mary Migner, and his stepfather, Justin Minyard. They also brought
the lawsuit against the school district and the superintendent, Trent Lovett,
who was subsequently granted qualified immunity, which seems kind of wild.

Speaker 3 (01:35:13):
He was okay.

Speaker 2 (01:35:14):
So the shooter was sentenced to life in prison after
being charged in as an adult, and he was given
two life sentences plus seventy years, but also eligible for
parole in twenty which doesn't make sense to me. I
think if you have more than one life sentence, you
shouldn't be able to get Yeah. The last one is Parkland, Florida.
It's the Stoneman Douglas High School shooting. And you know,

(01:35:37):
I would say it's probably like a most well known
you know what I Meanfortunately, it's like Columbine, Sandy Hook.

Speaker 3 (01:35:44):
Parkland.

Speaker 2 (01:35:48):
Nicholas Cruz murdered seventeen people on Valentine's Day and wounded
and traumatized nearly three dozen others. It was twenty eighteen,
and he opened fire and just fucking murdered people. And
then in February twenty twenty, parents of one of the
student victims filed a lawsuit against the US government. Andrew

(01:36:08):
Pollack lost his daughter, Meadow Pollock in the mass shooting.
He said that the FBI was tipped off and that
the Sheriff's department knew about the red flags running the
gunman but did not follow up. They had transcript excerpts
from the FBI tip line. A woman close to the
shooter called and said that on Instagram he posted photos
with his weapons and wrote how he wanted to kill somebody.

(01:36:30):
Then there was there was also a second tip that
was five months before the shooting, So five months before
the shooting. In September twenty seventeen, a bail bondsman in
Mississippi reported that someone commenting on the internet with a
username Nicholas Cruz left a disturbing message on his YouTube
channel and that said I'm going to be a professional
school shooter. And that was to the time, So that

(01:36:51):
was five months before. So you have citizens that are
fucking doing their due diligence months and like two FBI
guys came to talk to him and they they thought
nothing important of it and closed the inquiry. And the
woman knew him personally and was like, I think this
person's going to kill people, and they just didn't do
anything about it. The families of the Parkland shooting victims

(01:37:13):
were awarded one hundred and twenty seven point five million
dollars by the Justice Department, but says the settlement does
not amount to an admission or fault by the US government,
so they're not taking any accountability or fault or anything
like that. But they did settle with this money. Sixteen
out of the seventeen families were a part of the case.

(01:37:33):
The settlement also resolves forty cases connected to the shooting. Basically,
Jennifer and Fred Gutenberg's fourteen year old daughter, Jamie was
murdered in the shooting and they're like, if the FBI
did their job, that their daughter would be alive. So
they brought this suit on and then thirty nine families
joined them and argue that the shooting was completely preventable.

(01:37:54):
So yeah, close to one hundred and thirty million dollars
will be given out to forty six survivors and families
of this twenty eighteen massacre, and the school district also
paid out twenty five million dollars to the shooting victims
as well in a settlement in twenty twenty one. The
school district's payout will be split between families of fourteen
students and three faculty and sixteen of the seventeen who

(01:38:16):
are injured and nineteen people who had severe trauma resulting
from the shooting.

Speaker 1 (01:38:20):
And David Hog, who went to that school, is now
like a huge gun control advocate and he is running
for office. I'm getting a lot of fundraising notes from
David Hogg.

Speaker 2 (01:38:33):
Yeah, these kids are all growing up or he's he's
the vice chair of the DNC.

Speaker 3 (01:38:41):
Whoa and he's twenty five. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:38:45):
And then Kruz pled guilty October twenty and twenty to
seventeen counts a first degree murder, and then November twenty
twenty two he was sentenced to life in prison without
the possibility of parole.

Speaker 3 (01:38:58):
Damn.

Speaker 2 (01:39:00):
So yeah, I guess, you know, we can't really know
exactly what inspired this, but I just kind of focused
on the cases where they were trying to find other
people responsible, who were you know, and what what happens there.
But I think that Michigan case was huge, and even

(01:39:20):
and that other dad for having illegal guns. But like,
these parents need to be held accountable.

Speaker 1 (01:39:26):
Yeah yeah, And also the Feds are fucking checking up
on tips too, Like ough a lot of these guys
are on the internet saying the shit they're gonna do.
But at the same time, a lot of people are
on the internet talking ship that they're never going to do.
And it's hard to check out every fucking lead. I
get that, you know, I don't know what the answer.

Speaker 2 (01:39:47):
Is, but but that's their Like that's the whole point, Like,
I know, yeah, you guys are you know.

Speaker 1 (01:39:58):
Okay, but this is obviously sad subject matter. But our
guest coming up is fantastic, So don't go anywhere really exciting.

Speaker 3 (01:40:07):
Your palette is about to be very cleansed.

Speaker 1 (01:40:10):
Okay, Okay, our guest today, we're so excited. He is
an actor that you might know from shows like Fringe
or strike Back, but you know him best as the
tortured threesome having eighty A Peterstone. Please enjoy our delightful

(01:40:35):
conversation with Philip Winchester.

Speaker 6 (01:40:37):
Oh my gosh, you.

Speaker 2 (01:40:42):
We do get extra excited when it's a cast member.
There's so much to talk about. It's like, so this
happens to all the characters that when they come to SVU,
they're shocked by the you know, the horrific nature of
the crimes and that's kind of a trope. How is
it as an actor going from regular like Chicago crimes
to sex crimes? Yeah, well, you like, what the fuck

(01:41:04):
these storylines are nuts? When you were reading the script, yeah,
I think.

Speaker 7 (01:41:07):
You'd get like five or six episodes in and then
you got kind of numb to it, right, like, oh, look,
it's another horrific story about something that's happened to a
kid or this poor woman who's been roofied, and it
was just brutal. And then I'd look across at the
writers and go, you guys are can I swear on this?

Speaker 6 (01:41:23):
Got?

Speaker 2 (01:41:23):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (01:41:24):
I'd be like, you guys are really fucked up.

Speaker 3 (01:41:25):
Right, yes, well the fuck up part is there. They're
so they're comb in the news for this, so that's
just crazy.

Speaker 6 (01:41:32):
Yeah, ripped from the headlines.

Speaker 3 (01:41:33):
Right.

Speaker 6 (01:41:34):
But when you.

Speaker 2 (01:41:35):
Got to work with a few kids in your tenure.
We actually had the girl from Zero Tolerance. I don't
know if you remember her. It was like the border episode.

Speaker 6 (01:41:42):
Oh yeah, she was great.

Speaker 3 (01:41:44):
She was our youngest guest ever.

Speaker 6 (01:41:46):
Yeah that's fantastic.

Speaker 7 (01:41:47):
Oh that's really cool. Yeah she was she was great.
And then this one is that this one was.

Speaker 2 (01:41:54):
Down.

Speaker 1 (01:41:54):
Yeah, yeah, this is the beginning of season twenty. I mean,
you come in on season nineteen and one of the bleakest.

Speaker 6 (01:42:00):
Episodes of all that's right, Yeah, maybe our Country.

Speaker 2 (01:42:03):
Is the bleakest filking episode.

Speaker 1 (01:42:07):
And then you pop in then and then we got
you all.

Speaker 3 (01:42:13):
But Benson.

Speaker 7 (01:42:14):
Yeah, and it's like, we gotta we got to earn
that Druss, We gotta get that relationship back on the table.

Speaker 6 (01:42:20):
It comes in with this episode, which just brutal.

Speaker 2 (01:42:22):
I feel you go back and forth with her your
whole time there, like you guys, you guys fight a.

Speaker 6 (01:42:27):
Lot, We do fight a lot.

Speaker 7 (01:42:29):
I think there's some there's some political opinions in there
and some political beliefs there. I mean, there were some
brutal scenes. There was just some brutal stuff in the courtroom.
I remember that happened and and just how how we
all felt about it, and none of that was mimicking
real life, but just the way things went down with
some of the courtroom scenes and the cross examinations were like, man,
this is you know, Stone had this. What I appreciated

(01:42:53):
about playing him was his brokenness came through his desire
to be right. And so you know, characters are boring
if they're you know, they're good at everything, and like, ah,
we're cookie cutter and they're superheroes and this and that.
But Stone definitely had that. The danger in playing him
was that he was kind of good at a lot
of things. But then his oc dnus and his desire

(01:43:13):
to win made him interesting because he would use the
law to bend the rules as much as he could,
and I think that that rubbed Bence in the wrong way.
There was also this learning curve that had to happen
with Stone where he was going from the AD eight.
You know, he was Cook County Assistant District Attorney and
it was a lot of murder and things like that,
and then it was sex crimes.

Speaker 6 (01:43:33):
Yeah, and so towing.

Speaker 7 (01:43:34):
The line and learning that and being you know, basically
asking questions that I think he knew the answer to.
But he was checking in with Benson all the time
and being like, I'm gonna do this, what do you
feel about that?

Speaker 6 (01:43:46):
And it was good.

Speaker 7 (01:43:47):
But yeah, I loved the tension between Benson and Stone.
I thought it was I thought it was it made
for good TV.

Speaker 2 (01:43:52):
Well, yeah, because you were really like black and white,
we have to do this and still I want to
break the rules and then we.

Speaker 3 (01:43:58):
Could really do whatever I want. Yeah, I was like,
it's both are we not winning?

Speaker 6 (01:44:02):
Oh? I think there's some way to get around that.

Speaker 2 (01:44:04):
Yeah, A lot of contradictions with your character because also
like Stern, I would say, but then very flirty. I
think you're one of the bigger kind of slutty characters.

Speaker 6 (01:44:15):
So was it this episode with.

Speaker 3 (01:44:19):
Yeah, this would be a rare one description.

Speaker 7 (01:44:22):
We were like, whoa shit, Okay, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:44:25):
Yeah, you were really like flirty and fun, but then
also yeah, very stern.

Speaker 1 (01:44:31):
A lot of Yeah, well I think you definitely, Yeah,
you strike me as somebody who's really trying to impress Dad.
You know, we had a couple of different characters like
that on SVU.

Speaker 2 (01:44:42):
But your first episode you get to work with Sam
Waterson like this so amazing. How was that You got
a lot You also got to like be in the
courtroom by yourself and have a moment courtroom steps you're
in court with the barb was really like a very
full Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:45:00):
Alec Schappel, who was.

Speaker 7 (01:45:01):
Our main director that year, and he was our you know,
he was our director writer. He worked really closely with
Michael Chranucin. He just he understood the show. He understood
what we were trying to do with Stone and he yeah,
he was. It was such a gift, you know, I look,
it's funny. As an actor, I was little. Did I

(01:45:25):
know this was sort of the end of all the
energy and time that I would spend on network TV.

Speaker 2 (01:45:29):
I was.

Speaker 7 (01:45:30):
I was on Cinemax for four years, and then I
went to NBC for a year, and then it was
another show. It was Justice for a year, and then
it was So it was kind of like this.

Speaker 6 (01:45:39):
Eight year run.

Speaker 7 (01:45:41):
And I wasn't complacent about it, but you're just like,
this is what I do. Now, I'm doing network TV.
I'm going to do this. And so some of the
not the work, but some of the episodes they blend together.
You do so many of them, I mean, and the
characters crossover and the the cases crossover, and so you

(01:46:03):
have these moments where you go, wait, this is really
important and you can and special and Sam Waterston was
one of them.

Speaker 6 (01:46:09):
We get there.

Speaker 7 (01:46:12):
The first day of shooting with Sam was this crazy
snowstorm and most of New York shut down, but not
a Dick Wolf production, and damn it, everybody showed up
to work. It was amazing and it was this howling
blizzard and we were shooting in a church because it
was the funeral scene, right, And we get in there

(01:46:35):
and Sam and I were talking about the characters and
hanging out, and he's just he's such a pro and
he's such a legend.

Speaker 6 (01:46:41):
Have you guys talked to him?

Speaker 1 (01:46:42):
No?

Speaker 7 (01:46:43):
Yeah, he you know, he's one of those actors. He's
one of those guys. He's he puts so much thought
into it, and he's so easy. I remember I said
this about acting, and I love this. Ice is a prophet, right,
He's just like he'll say things and you're like, wait
a second, I actually have a thing in my phone
called iced tea knowledge.

Speaker 2 (01:47:02):
Yes, and ice cold facts.

Speaker 4 (01:47:05):
Yes.

Speaker 7 (01:47:06):
He would drop these pearls right, and you'd be like
one second here, just like but but Sam, Sam made
it look so easy. And that's because he does so
much work up to it, and he's done it so
often that it's just it's just butter.

Speaker 6 (01:47:22):
Right, it's so easy.

Speaker 7 (01:47:25):
But it's because he's good, and it's because he puts
the work in.

Speaker 3 (01:47:28):
I guess. I mean, will you give us an ice
cold fact?

Speaker 6 (01:47:31):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:47:32):
Any of your ice knowledge?

Speaker 1 (01:47:33):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:47:34):
Any that you like, remember that's.

Speaker 6 (01:47:36):
My favorite ice cold fact. Okay, ready, this is my
favorite ice cold fact.

Speaker 7 (01:47:39):
We're in in the courtroom Run one day and ice
Tea goes. He goes, hey, Philip, you want to hear
something about the industry. And I was like yeah, He's like,
you want to hear the this is the career of
an actor?

Speaker 6 (01:47:52):
You ready? I was like yeah, let's go.

Speaker 7 (01:47:53):
But he's like, there's four stages to an actor. Who
is Philip Winchester? Right, get me Philip Winchester. Get me
a younger Philip Winchester.

Speaker 6 (01:48:06):
Who the fuck is Philip Winchester?

Speaker 7 (01:48:08):
That is that's the career, that's the career path, except
that's icy.

Speaker 6 (01:48:15):
Less you. He's so good, right, we were walking in
the hallway.

Speaker 7 (01:48:19):
What did he dropped one in the hallway one day,
just along the lines of like walking along, he's like, yeah,
if you don't have a job, you probably shouldn't sleep
in And it was just like one of those like
like you gotta put that in, put it in, put
it in.

Speaker 3 (01:48:31):
Wow, that really hit me. You have a job, don't sleep.

Speaker 6 (01:48:38):
Probably should Oh, he's just he's amazing. What a guy.

Speaker 3 (01:48:42):
Yeah, were you getting recognized while living in New York?
And playing Stone. Did you have any run ins?

Speaker 6 (01:48:47):
Yeah, definitely. Uh.

Speaker 7 (01:48:51):
Probably the most recognition happened in New York while I
was doing SVU. Yeah, you know, I mean and and
now It's funny. My wife and I joke if we're
out because there's always kind of peaks and valleys and
what you do will be out and someone will say
something like or you'll get like the triple take, and
we're like, there must be a rerun on right now.

Speaker 6 (01:49:08):
Yeah, because.

Speaker 7 (01:49:11):
USA is doing a marathon and Peterstone's on, because then
you'll get the triple takes. But yeah, definitely in New
York there was a lot of that, which is you know,
which was which was kind of fun. Yeah, not not
not the reason to do it, but it was all
and airports. I was There's two types of fans that
I get. I get the Strike Back fans and I
get the SVU fans, And usually I can tell before
they say something strike Back. Strike Back was a big

(01:49:35):
action series, so it's usually like military guys or the
beards and the tats come up and I'm like, this
isn't going to be about not shooting the rabbit and
this is this is going to be about something else.

Speaker 3 (01:49:49):
Guys always shoot the rabbit.

Speaker 6 (01:49:51):
I'm sure, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:49:52):
Where did this shoot? So we shot it?

Speaker 6 (01:49:55):
That was South Africa.

Speaker 7 (01:49:57):
We were in joe Burg, Cape Town, and then Thailand
and then boot and.

Speaker 6 (01:50:02):
It was great.

Speaker 3 (01:50:03):
Whoa, that's so cool.

Speaker 7 (01:50:06):
That was my My first meeting with Dick Wolf was
I was sort of in this. I'd been doing this
action stuff for so long that you know, I get
I get carved up to his place in Monacito. I
mean it was it was like something out of the Godfather.
Was just this beautiful house.

Speaker 3 (01:50:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (01:50:23):
I get ushered into his office, which is like twenty
foot ceilings and leather bound scripts of all the episodes
of TV that he's made, like really classy, really cool.
And he's got a marble desk with a lamp, four
scripts on it and a phone.

Speaker 6 (01:50:41):
That's it.

Speaker 7 (01:50:42):
And there's Dick Wolf behind the desk, and I am
so nervous, probably slightly hungover, and and I was like,
oh shit, like this is real, Like this what what
happens in this room could make or break the rest
of your career, right, And he's like, so, Bob Greenblatt
over at NBC said, you know, the player over, I've
got an idea for a show. He says, you're the guy,

(01:51:03):
and I was like, look, I really appreciate that, but
I jump out of helicopters and punch people in the face.
That's that's what I've been doing for like the last
six years. And he's like, yeah, I don't need you
to do that, but if you could do it with
your eyes, that'd be great.

Speaker 2 (01:51:20):
Ha ha ha.

Speaker 7 (01:51:21):
And I was like, any like, totally caught me off guard, right,
And I was like, oh, okay, So he kind of
thought that was a joke too, that's cool. And I
was like, well, I mean, can I read a script?
He's like, I don't have one yet, but it'll be good.
And I was like, you don't push this too far further,
you know, too much further now, And I go okay.
He goes, I tell you what, if you don't like it,

(01:51:42):
you can quit, and if you suck, I'll fire you.

Speaker 6 (01:51:45):
And I went, I don't think there's a better deal
in Hollywood.

Speaker 3 (01:51:47):
Okay. Incredible. We've actually never gotten any insight on Dick Wolf.
I don't think from anyone.

Speaker 2 (01:51:55):
That's yeah, we don't get a lot of Dick Wolf
talk because we talked to a lot of guest stars,
you know, so they didn't really have much.

Speaker 6 (01:52:02):
Everything you think he would be. He's incredible.

Speaker 2 (01:52:04):
We saw him from because we went to Iced Tea's
star on the Walk of Fame.

Speaker 6 (01:52:09):
We are cool.

Speaker 2 (01:52:10):
Well, we were in the pen with the regular people
and I was like, Kara, you better get us into
the pressed.

Speaker 3 (01:52:16):
And got us in the press like it was a job.

Speaker 2 (01:52:19):
So we had an amazing view. We have like a
photo of like baby Chanel.

Speaker 3 (01:52:23):
Like jumping into arms. We really were in the thing
of it.

Speaker 2 (01:52:26):
But that was the That was I think the only
time I saw Dick Wolf but a marble desk I'm
obsessed with.

Speaker 6 (01:52:31):
Yeah, no, he is the real deal.

Speaker 7 (01:52:33):
Staff of scripts just like that's you know, just like
this man who has given his life to television.

Speaker 2 (01:52:39):
But I bet more people were desperate than you or
I wonder if people or a lot of people are
like I.

Speaker 3 (01:52:44):
Don't know, yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 7 (01:52:48):
I really appreciated his sort of like, look, I'm.

Speaker 6 (01:52:53):
What do you want, like like the script will be good?

Speaker 7 (01:52:56):
And he kind of he kind of doubled down on that,
not with me personally, but he walked onto set on Justice,
which in hindsight's a little sad because the show didn't
go that far.

Speaker 6 (01:53:05):
But I don't think it was our fault. You know.

Speaker 7 (01:53:08):
He's like he walked in right down the middle of
where the gallery sits and then walked up to the
prosecuting table and he's walked in. He's like, all right, everybody,
the sets are built, the scripts are good, cameras are here.

Speaker 6 (01:53:21):
Don't fuck it up.

Speaker 7 (01:53:23):
Yeah, And that was it was like, okay, and you
know what, he's not wrong.

Speaker 6 (01:53:28):
Don't fuck it up.

Speaker 3 (01:53:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:53:29):
I was like, let's go right, let's push the button.

Speaker 3 (01:53:32):
Fuck it up. Who knew our two pass? Yeah, don't
fuck it up? Wait? Did you meet Snoop Talk?

Speaker 6 (01:53:40):
I wasn't on the No.

Speaker 3 (01:53:41):
I wasn't in that episode.

Speaker 7 (01:53:42):
Everyone asked that, like of all the guest roles, and
that was a that was a t of course.

Speaker 6 (01:53:48):
That was a nice thing.

Speaker 7 (01:53:49):
I think they said we would love Snoop Dogg, and
I think I said, I'll call him.

Speaker 6 (01:53:53):
I mean, how cool is that? Right?

Speaker 1 (01:53:54):
I remember like when your character was on, when I
was watching the show, when you were first on like
seven or eight years ago, I was like, Oh, this
is what's bringing me into this guy is he's got
this like family thing going on, you know, like your
relationship with your dad, but also the sister thing, that's right,
which honestly kicks off your slutty phase.

Speaker 3 (01:54:11):
I feel.

Speaker 6 (01:54:14):
Stones slutty phase.

Speaker 1 (01:54:16):
Yeah, Stone goes real slutty after his sister is killed
by a.

Speaker 2 (01:54:19):
Partelartle, the cartel that's rights.

Speaker 6 (01:54:23):
Some of it was.

Speaker 7 (01:54:24):
It was just brutal, right, there was we read that
script and we were like wa, whoa. And then the
hardest part about missing the action stuff was then doing
those episodes. Remember like that there was that episode, There
was the episode in the bar where I was accused
of Oh yeah, I was accused of raping someone in
college and it wasn't true. And the guy's the gal's

(01:54:48):
husband comes to the bar and it's like there was
so much yeah, amazing right, amazing actor. And there was
years and years of like someone put a gun in
you and you'd be like take it away.

Speaker 6 (01:55:02):
And this was like I.

Speaker 7 (01:55:03):
Remember, had so many so many family members calling and
so many like fans being like this is where Stonebridge
kicks his ass. Right, He's not stone Bridge, He's Peterstone.
But yeah, the sister stuff really kicked off. It really
broke down Stone, you know, it was that was the
beginning of the end of Stone right, and going into
those last episodes kind of really you know it was

(01:55:26):
it was just, you know, I had a two year
contract on SVU. We didn't know if it was going
to get renegotiated or not, but we wanted it to
go out as strong as we could. And I remember
the rewrites on the last episode were we ended up
in a place where Stone really bent the rules for
Benson right, and I think that that.

Speaker 3 (01:55:46):
Was a really great style.

Speaker 7 (01:55:49):
Yeah, totally like the he was working deals here making
it happen, and it was, but it was totally breaking
the law, which is not Stone.

Speaker 6 (01:55:56):
He would like he can bend the rules, but he
wouldn't break them.

Speaker 7 (01:55:59):
And the first script that came out was he he
had done similar things, but instead of having that discussion
right outside the front of the courthouse, he got shot
on the front steps of the courthouse. And we read
it in the table read and we were like, oh snap.
And there was definitely a bit of like fuck, you know,

(01:56:21):
that's I can't ever do Peter Stone again.

Speaker 6 (01:56:24):
But what great television, right. I was like, man, let's
let's go.

Speaker 7 (01:56:29):
And I remember Mariska came out in the hallway afterwards,
and she was like, Philip, you can't die.

Speaker 6 (01:56:37):
And I was like, I don't know.

Speaker 7 (01:56:38):
I think as much as I would love to keep
playing this character or have the opportunity down the road
that is wild TV, especially for network TV, I was like,
I think we could. It would be amazing if we
could pull it off. And it sat with her for
a while, and it sat with me for a while,
and we went back to Michael Chernucin. Obviously didn't end

(01:57:00):
up happening, and I think, and I'm now, you know,
six years later, I'm really grateful because I think there's
there's some opportunities maybe somewhere along the road to get
some Peter Stone back in there, or him to do
his own thing, you know. But that was definitely an option,
And I thought, man, that would there's that. There's that
as an artist, an artist, as an actor, You're like,
I really like this character, but is the payoff good

(01:57:23):
enough to literally put a bullet in them?

Speaker 6 (01:57:26):
So but I think we ended in a good place.

Speaker 1 (01:57:28):
Well, let me ask you this, because we haven't talked
to We've talked to a lot of cast members, but
some of them like kind of came on in the
earlier years and like you came on season nineteen twenty
to be We talked to so many guest stars and
they always say, oh, it's a well oiled machine. They
welcome us in and this and that. But you're coming
in not just to be there for a week or two.

(01:57:49):
You're going to be there for like the long haul.
Did you find like the same kind of welcoming getting
in with like the gang of like Marishka Scanavino, Roll
you know now I'm Kelley, like Iced Tea. Were they
just like, oh, welcome, You're one of the regular guys
now or did you have to kind of earn it
a little bit?

Speaker 6 (01:58:06):
I think probably a little bit of both.

Speaker 7 (01:58:08):
I think you have to, like anything, when you've been
around that long, you really wanted like it's performance, right,
You're like, can you hang with us? And I think
there was a little bit of proving ourselves in the
first few episodes. And also I was coming over with
a showrunner that I had worked with for a year
and oh, which is nice with Michael Trannucin, right, And
so there was a little bit of like who are

(01:58:28):
these guys? You know a little bit who are these
two guys? And then right away they could see that
Nutce is great and hopefully you know, I just jumped
in and did my stuff. But it wasn't anything too
you know, they're not bullying you by any means, but
there's definitely like, hey, can you guys hang and you know,
and it's important because the show's hinged on that, right.

(01:58:49):
But then they were just so welcoming and it was
all you know, it was very much invited to all
the events and parties and things like that and dinners
at people's houses and sometimes that's what it was. It
was a little difficult to be involved in as much
stuff as of and that side of things because I
had a young daughter at home in Montana.

Speaker 6 (01:59:06):
If she wasn't in New York, I was on a plane.
Like this. It was really it was a real gift.

Speaker 7 (01:59:12):
Because on Justice it was you know, working ninety hours
a week and not you know, sleeping, eating with your
script in your hand. And then I had Peterstone on
SVU and so I had time and if I wasn't
in New York, I was on a If I wasn't shooting,
I was getting on a plane and going to see
my daughter and my wife. Even if it was overnight.
I'd land in the afternoon in Montana, kiss my family,

(01:59:34):
hang out, and get on a flight the early next
morning and comeback. And we always had to have a
day buffer, especially in the winter because weather in New
York and weather in Montana's just crazy.

Speaker 3 (01:59:42):
Well are their direct flights.

Speaker 6 (01:59:44):
There was a United flight, There's a United flight in
the winter.

Speaker 7 (01:59:48):
Because of ski season. But then as soon as spring
comes around in mud seasons here, I had to go
through Chicago or Salt Lake City or something like that,
and that makes it a whole day of traveling, which
look champagne problems, right, But I was spent doing a
lot of sky time for sure.

Speaker 2 (02:00:02):
And then how was the last day? Was there a party?
Was there a wrap or their gifts?

Speaker 7 (02:00:08):
Was last day? Gosh, there's so much emotion wrapped up
in it. I remember being pretty cut up about it.
You know it's coming. I actually found out I wasn't
going to be going back probably two or three episodes
before the end, right, So you're kind of doing these
episodes not with a chip on your shoulder, but a
little bit like darn it, like could I have done

(02:00:30):
something different?

Speaker 6 (02:00:30):
Is it my fault?

Speaker 7 (02:00:31):
And sometimes it's just like your contract didn't get reapped
right or what or that that's the end of that
character for that reason. And yeah, there was lovely you know,
Marisca said some lovely things in front of the crew,
and I was able to talk to the crew and
say thanks for everything, and you know, I think we
I don't know what.

Speaker 6 (02:00:49):
My last scene was.

Speaker 7 (02:00:50):
I think it was in the courtroom and I think
actually it was in the courtroom. And so that was
a nice way to wrap it up because it felt
like it had gone full circle from Chicago Justice all
the way back to all the way back to Law
and Order SPU and then and because the courtroom is big,
we had extras in there, we had the whole crew
in there, and we were able to say thank you
and goodbye.

Speaker 6 (02:01:08):
And it's always a weird thing.

Speaker 7 (02:01:09):
You know, that's your family, for lack of a better term,
I mean, you're with them so many hours a day,
so many days a week, that all of a sudden,
you're it's always it's always for me, it's like, you know,
being a guy. It's like a month later, you know,
and I'm sitting in my office and I'm like.

Speaker 3 (02:01:27):
I'm sad.

Speaker 6 (02:01:29):
Wait a second, I really love that show. But yeah,
just such a gift and wonderful, wonderful people.

Speaker 3 (02:01:38):
Really, do you want to talk about Ransom Canyon?

Speaker 6 (02:01:42):
Sure? Sure, yeah? You are you guys up to date
on Ransom Can.

Speaker 7 (02:01:49):
How could you be when there's how many thousands of
episodes of SVU to work?

Speaker 1 (02:01:52):
Oh my god, and we have to see them all
seventeen times or.

Speaker 6 (02:01:56):
We won't have to see them all. Uh yeah, Ransom.

Speaker 7 (02:01:59):
Look, we shot Rant Canyon down in Albuquerque, New Mexico.
It's a adaptation of a of several novels. There's a
whole bunch of them. It's good fun. It's sort of
a I guess you, I would call it a Yellowstone
meets Friday Night Lights. It's lovely so that we got
to make a Callrie Josh Dumel. It's it's doing great.

Speaker 2 (02:02:18):
It was.

Speaker 7 (02:02:18):
Last time I checked, it was number one or number
two on Netflix. Hell yeah, in the in the United States,
and I think number one or number two globally too,
which is great. It hit a nerve, which is fantastic.
My wife and I sat down over the weekend and
watched it and it.

Speaker 3 (02:02:31):
Was really funny. It was like yellow more romance a.

Speaker 7 (02:02:34):
Lot more romance. Okay, yeah, very much like the turmoil
of like the the lovers who own ranches trying to
fight over the one gal who owns a lavender farm.
And then I play I play the Sheriff of Ransom
Canyon and my daughter's in love with the bad boy
and I don't like that, and they're trying to figure
that out. And then there's you know, a tornado comes
through town.

Speaker 6 (02:02:54):
It's very it's just it's popcorn, but it's good popcorn. Right,
It's like it's it's soapy, but great, Sophie.

Speaker 7 (02:03:02):
There's wonderful music, long pauses on scenes, you know, the
camera will hold on a scene, beautiful cinematography.

Speaker 3 (02:03:09):
That is gorgeous down there.

Speaker 6 (02:03:11):
It's just gorgeous television.

Speaker 1 (02:03:13):
Yeah, so it's just weird, like it just premiered this
month in April.

Speaker 3 (02:03:17):
Yeah, we kind of still getting around making the rounds.

Speaker 6 (02:03:22):
Yeah, it's making the rounds and doing and it's doing
great so far.

Speaker 1 (02:03:24):
So we're hey, you'll probably get another season of that,
and you'll be back in Albuquerque.

Speaker 7 (02:03:28):
I think we I'm hoping we're back in Albuquerque. Yeah,
that would be great. Thank you so much, Thank you guys.

Speaker 3 (02:03:34):
Yeah, it was a dream. I feel like we could
talk to you for another three hours. Thank you so
much for.

Speaker 2 (02:03:39):
Remembering everything and all the details and all the fun
and some ice cool facts like oh.

Speaker 6 (02:03:44):
Ice cold facts. He's the man. No, it's you guys.
You guys. It's like when you mentioned stuff, it's like, oh, yeah,
that's right. It was a lot of fun. We're on
it and really appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (02:03:57):
Wow, what again, look at us if we're not the
premiere podcast.

Speaker 3 (02:04:01):
I don't know, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (02:04:03):
Can you image guests like this? This is yeah wild
Hee's he was one a chatter good story and he
also like took that job, like like he loved that
job as much as we love watching the show.

Speaker 3 (02:04:17):
Yeah, and that's what's really good.

Speaker 2 (02:04:18):
You know. It's like fun watching someone that like remembers
all these moments. And also like we've never gotten Dick
Wolf's scoop. Yeah, like I want to hear about Dick
Wolf's desk, like yeah, yeah, he was so nice, so cute.
He was coming to us from a podcast studio. Talk
about taking it seriously well, Kara said, as like they

(02:04:42):
were closing and we were all logging off, she heard
someone go that was fun, so I don't know if
it was Philip or who is helping record, but that feels.

Speaker 3 (02:04:50):
To have fun. I hope you had fun.

Speaker 2 (02:04:52):
Can you imagine if we heard something else? Yeah, shrieking bitches,
you know?

Speaker 3 (02:04:57):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (02:04:58):
Yeah, But this episode, I mean, it's like, I don't know,
we gotta do a post mortem. But do you really
want to get us started about toxic masculinity and how
you're fucking up all the boys of this of this
fucking uh world.

Speaker 2 (02:05:09):
I don't know, Like, it's just so horrible that we
could live, Like, I don't know, because I want to
do I was thinking about, like I'm so against chat
GBT and AI so against it, but then it's also like,
but it could do all these lovely things. I just
don't believe in humanity. Yeah, I just think evil.

Speaker 1 (02:05:28):
A can to be trusted with a toy like that.
We can't be trusted with that tool.

Speaker 2 (02:05:32):
I would love AI, but it's like, no, Chat GIBC sucks.

Speaker 3 (02:05:35):
It's bad.

Speaker 2 (02:05:36):
It's evil because we're evil as a as a numbers game,
like why don't you let your boy not have to
murder a rabbit?

Speaker 1 (02:05:43):
Yes, off this chain reaction of like manliness being equated
to violence.

Speaker 3 (02:05:50):
And taking lives and all this stuff. It's like nothing.

Speaker 1 (02:05:54):
If my kids never shoot a gun in their lives,
I'll be so proud, so proud. My god, Way do
you watch fashion for to review? I know I know
about it, but I don't watch it religiously.

Speaker 3 (02:06:04):
Oh my god. So the lasts was West.

Speaker 2 (02:06:07):
Yeah, Tudor boot Raven's outfit was awesome for the Western.
Weard like it was this corset but on her titties
were two guns.

Speaker 3 (02:06:14):
And I'm like, that's what you do with guns.

Speaker 2 (02:06:15):
Yeah, you make them into a corset and I'll have
some fun. Yes, yeah, girls, she looked beautiful. I'm like
obsessed with them. They're true truly two of the most beautiful,
Like they're gorge faces I've ever seen in my life.

Speaker 3 (02:06:27):
Icons and so funny. I love them and I think they're
so funny.

Speaker 2 (02:06:30):
And knowledgeable, like the way they like talk about the
outfits and the references and all of it.

Speaker 3 (02:06:34):
They've been there since the beginning. I mean, they're they're.

Speaker 1 (02:06:37):
They're they're I hate, I don't want to say like elders,
but they're like because they're not old, but.

Speaker 2 (02:06:43):
They're like they would call themselves elder. They're someone's thirty two,
Like Sasha Colby's what thirty five?

Speaker 1 (02:06:50):
I know, and they're like, oh, to just know that
Sasha's here, She's such a legend, so she's thirty five.

Speaker 3 (02:06:57):
Drag Race is so funny. But I and they burned early.
I just wish.

Speaker 2 (02:07:02):
People wanted their you know, That's what I always preacher
at that where it's like the conditional and unconditional love
and just yeah. Also, if you haven't watched night Owl yet,
give it a fucking watch.

Speaker 3 (02:07:12):
Yeah, are you doing it? Is this uh thing of
like just let people be.

Speaker 1 (02:07:19):
I know, I just really try to teach my kids
kindness above anything. I'm like, I know, condition to be kids. Yeah,
I was like, I know there's gonna be kids that
you don't like. I know, you don't have to like everybody.
There's gonna be people you don't get along with. Just
don't be mean to people, don't be unkind. You know,
there's ways you can like just be kind to people.
Baseline and I just feel like we would have so

(02:07:42):
much less of these shootings, these kinds of things that
happen like every day, everybody's worried about sending their kids
to school because we have one of these every week.

Speaker 2 (02:07:51):
And then they use all this in the bad schools
to then promote homeschooling, which then like causes more issues
and less funding for school. It's like it's all connected,
it's all the fabric of it all. But if only
you can you know, your kids aren't gonna be you,
they get to be themselves.

Speaker 3 (02:08:09):
And like, I don't know, and don't have guns just
lying around, don't rape your kid.

Speaker 2 (02:08:17):
But I'm glad with the real cases, Like I hope
they start arresting and charging and convicting parents.

Speaker 3 (02:08:22):
Yeah, if your guns are.

Speaker 2 (02:08:23):
Left unattended, if you're teach indoctrinating your children with bullshit,
you should you should be on trial.

Speaker 1 (02:08:30):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, their minds, their frontal lobes are
not fully formed, and you this is not the time
to be shoving gun propaganda inside of them.

Speaker 2 (02:08:42):
Uh. But also, but great acting, great episode, great guest
and as always, I mean, it's also not just about
it's also not just about the guns.

Speaker 3 (02:08:52):
I mean, I don't know why that man thought he had.

Speaker 2 (02:08:55):
To also sexually assault his child to teach him a lessons.
That's the worst part of this episode.

Speaker 1 (02:09:04):
Like that's obviously the worst part, but it also is like, what, like,
I don't know that is so it's awful, but listen.

Speaker 3 (02:09:16):
Well, let's move on to what would Sister Peg Do?
This week?

Speaker 1 (02:09:18):
For What Sister Peg Do, which is our weekly segment
where we direct you to a book, a blog post,
an organization, a doc something to give you more information
about what we talked about in today's episode, I wanted
to port you to an article called how to Address
Toxic Masculinity with Boys on a website that is for
a nonprofit called next Gen Men and not to be

(02:09:40):
confused with Next Gen NYC, which is a reality.

Speaker 3 (02:09:43):
Show on Bravo.

Speaker 2 (02:09:44):
This week, how do we get a reward for not
mentioning Bravo once this whole episode?

Speaker 3 (02:09:50):
Actually, yeah, that we need to medal we do.

Speaker 2 (02:09:54):
But my god, after my show in Philly, I was
like talking to this group of people for a really
long time after the show, and when I went back
to all the other comics, some people that worked at
the club, They're like, oh, are those your friends? I
go truly strangers from the show. They just brought up Summerhouse. Yeah,
they brought up Summerhouse. And that's all that I need it,
that's all you need? That is Oh my god. Wait,
page's fucking loungewear line. I gotta get online.

Speaker 3 (02:10:16):
It's live.

Speaker 1 (02:10:17):
Okay, So now you're not getting the metal anymore because
we were bringing it up.

Speaker 3 (02:10:20):
We're talking about it. Listen.

Speaker 1 (02:10:23):
I think this is a really important topic. This the
toxic masculinity and boys. There's all this shit on the
internet that kids have access to, Andrew taate like all
this shit that they're indoctrinating boys telling them, and this
is outside of parents' control sometimes, Like if you don't
know what your kids are watching on YouTube, then you
know they're getting this shit from their friends, all this
stuff about how to be a you know whatever, a man.

(02:10:44):
So this is a really in depth article that highlights
a lot of the presumptions we have about teenage boys
and the trauma that many boys experience navigating toxic teenage
boy culture.

Speaker 3 (02:10:52):
And the article does a good job of representing.

Speaker 1 (02:10:54):
The boy's point of view and points out that boys
actually want to know how to be masculine without being taught.
So if you're interested, you can read the article over
at next Gen Men dotca and that will be posted
in our show notes and in our stories the day
that this episode comes out and All of our old
WWSPD stories are saved in our highlight on our Instagram

(02:11:18):
page called WWSPD and our Instagram's That's messed Up pod.

Speaker 2 (02:11:23):
Thank you, thanks for all that. I'm also sorry that
I plugged my special while we were talking about school
shooting and rape. It's okay, but I would like you
all to watch we jump around.

Speaker 3 (02:11:34):
We jump around.

Speaker 2 (02:11:35):
Also, the Daphnie line is sold out and is obviously
not sized inclusive, but even if it wasn't sold out,
I would sadly not be able to fit.

Speaker 3 (02:11:47):
Where are you? And it's just funny. That's so funny like.

Speaker 1 (02:11:52):
That we thought page would have a size inclusive line.

Speaker 2 (02:11:56):
I know, but also like a man that being like
these bathing suits are for big titties and it's like, okay,
well they.

Speaker 3 (02:12:02):
Only go up to a large so love you bummer.

Speaker 2 (02:12:04):
Yeah, okay, So next week we'll be doing Nocturn from
season one, episode twenty one. Join us please and everyone,
stay safe, stay motivated, stay.

Speaker 3 (02:12:17):
Stay alert, stay alert. See you next week.

Speaker 2 (02:12:20):
Enjoy your summer. Bye, never change. That's messed up as
an exactly right production.

Speaker 1 (02:12:34):
If you have compliments you'd like to give us or
episodes you'd like us to cover. Shoot us an email
it That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com. Listen to
That's Messed Up on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever.

Speaker 3 (02:12:45):
You get your podcasts.

Speaker 2 (02:12:46):
Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod,
and follow us personally at Kara Clank and at glitter Cheese.

Speaker 1 (02:12:54):
As always, please see our show notes for sources and
more information.

Speaker 3 (02:12:58):
Thank you so.

Speaker 2 (02:12:58):
Much to our senior produce Sir Casey O'Brien and our
associate producer Christina Chamberlain.

Speaker 1 (02:13:04):
And to our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker
Patrick Cottner, and to Henry Kaperski for our theme song,
and Carly Geen Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to
our executive producers Georgia Hardstart, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer, and
everybody at Exactly Right Media.

Speaker 4 (02:13:19):
Dun dun