Manhunt

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Of the Law and Order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.

Speaker 1 (00:09):
These are our stories.

Speaker 3 (00:11):
Done done, Yay, that's messed up.

Speaker 4 (00:29):
An sv podcast.

Speaker 1 (00:31):
My name is Lisa and I'm Kara, and every week
we bring you an episode recap of SVU, a dive
into the true crimes that it was based on. And
sometimes we have interviews with people from the show and
sometimes we don't, but up top we chat away catch up.

Speaker 2 (00:51):
And before we start, I do have to say I
leave this week to New Zealand and Australia, So if
you're in Auckland, Perth, Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, I'll be there too.

Speaker 4 (01:02):
Yeah, I'm on out. I'm excited.

Speaker 1 (01:05):
Down Under, get with it, get your down Under. I
cast shout all my upgrades. I will be laying down.
It's a life. I can't even believe it's about to happen,
doing like a twenty hour lay down exciting.

Speaker 4 (01:18):
Yeah, it's really a thrill because.

Speaker 1 (01:21):
That I feel like that's a that's that's really big news,
that's you.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
It's like being in the cult finally pays off. It's
like when you get to, like, finally have sex with
the leader.

Speaker 1 (01:29):
Yes, yeah, my time has this flight, this flight is
you finally fucking Keith Ranieri and I'm so happy for you. Yeah. Well,
if you guys want to, like sometimes people tell us
that they get bad ticket sites when they just Google,
So go to that's messed up live dot com and
then Lisa's web Like, Lisa's website is linked there and

(01:50):
that has all her ticket links, so you can get
legit ticket links and dates and time.

Speaker 4 (01:54):
There's no reason to be on the scam website.

Speaker 1 (01:57):
Guys, plenty of we're we're showing you the way. Also
a flight thing, I did meet a listener in first
class coming from Charlotte, So just a shout out to
Nicole Talks Bravo. Well, at first she saw me have
an attitude, and then I felt humiliated because my bag
was moved without anyone asking me, and so I couldn't

(02:19):
find my bag and she knew where it was, and
I go, but why would they move it without even
giving me a heads up? And then she was like
I love the pod, oh god, oh god, and the
James Gordon of that flight. Yeah, except you weren't making
your wife do a bunch of work. No, no, But

(02:40):
speaking of Bravo though, right before we came on, you
were going to say something about Next Gen NYC. And
I'm not watching it, but I still want to hear
some thoughts because I am getting clips in case anybody doesn't.

Speaker 2 (02:50):
Well, this isn't even from the show. It's honestly crazier
and it might entice you to watch. There's a guy,
Charlie on the show if you're watching Sea and he
sucks but crazy. I don't know if you remember the
Italian tourist that was being tortured for a month and
escaped from New York. He was on the scene of
the crime. He was at that house. He was in
the crypto torture house where they held a tourist and

(03:11):
tortured him for a month, and he like, there's footage
of him escaping and running out. Charlie was seen there.

Speaker 1 (03:18):
Okay, we have to back it up for a second.
We have to back it up a couple of steps. Okay,
so the first step is just to explain that there
is a show on Bravo called Next Gen NYC. It's
like Saved by the Bell, the new class. It's all
it's a bunch of kids of Bravo people, but then
also well known kids of other just like rich kids.

Speaker 2 (03:36):
The other rich kids are like cool New York kids,
but this guy, Charlie is like, oh great, another housewife kid.

Speaker 1 (03:42):
Ugh, yes, God, and you wouldn't have a show. You
wouldn't have a show. I saw that clip this morning,
and it's like, but I also saw a clip with
him being very microaggressive to Riley Burris. That clip was
going around as well, and I'm like, who is he like,
And of course I can't google, but I'm asking you
who is he? Where is his connection?

Speaker 2 (03:59):
So his dad is like a succession kind of dad,
like just a rich rich man, and the mom like
kind of bounced and is like a hippie rock star woman.
And he's just like, you know, he gets money from
his rich dad and invests in crypto.

Speaker 1 (04:14):
Like he's wait, but here's something interesting because I did
just google it that his dad is a private investigator.

Speaker 4 (04:21):
Okay, that's I don't know.

Speaker 1 (04:23):
I can't really, there's no way you can make that
much money. Well, maybe it's all our collector. And then
his mom's an art collector. We met his mom. His
mom's a drug addict.

Speaker 2 (04:32):
I think maybe it's all funny, like not that you
can't be an total elector without being un drugs.

Speaker 1 (04:37):
You actually can, you can actually do.

Speaker 2 (04:41):
A private investigator is totally I mean, it seemed like
he's a finance guy, like business finance company.

Speaker 1 (04:49):
Charlie's the core. Yeah, yeah, no, Charlie is the kid.
Yeah yeah. It says his parents are a private investor.
I'm oh, my god, Lisa.

Speaker 4 (05:00):
It's investments.

Speaker 1 (05:00):
I knew it. It's private investor, and I was reading it.
I know, I know, I know, but I just thought
it was cool because we have a fucking crime podcast.
I was like, neat, his dad's a private investigator. Oh,
I'm sorry. I just like, don't hear the words private
investor that much. He's like a private Okay, he's in
a private investor. That's yeah, I'm okay, it's investments. Sorry,
but it is kind of funny that I was like, no, no, no,

(05:22):
he's got it in a.

Speaker 2 (05:24):
Car all day and like nobody got fired from the squad,
you know what.

Speaker 1 (05:28):
Nick Kroll's parents level like not, but that's securities. That's
not private investig that's like security. But it's like, but
it's like, but it's investigating people too, so I thought
maybe it was like that. But it's like the fucking
Peter Tielgey. It's like securities, it's bond it's like it's insane.
It's not like a p I, right, But I was

(05:49):
just thinking upper echelon a high highest level. Okay, listen,
my brain went to a crazy place. I just like
did not know who this kid was, and I was like,
he's acting really big for his puches on the show.

Speaker 2 (05:59):
He's like unwell, he's an unwell rich kid who like
can't function with others, and right aways like, oh, you're trash.
And it's like Arianna Berman's boyfriend is the Zaxby's chicken air,
so you better put some respect on his name. But
also Arianna is in a lovely relationship. It's beautiful to watch,
Like they went to Jia's house and she like she's

(06:23):
taking her clothes off to being a bikini and she
turns to her boyfriend goes is my tampon string hanging out?

Speaker 4 (06:28):
And I'm like, oh, this is a real relationship.

Speaker 1 (06:29):
I'm proud of Aria, Like this is beautiful, And they
brought laundry to Gia's because they're new to New York,
like they're not used to this life.

Speaker 4 (06:37):
So they brought all their laundry to do laundry in Jersey.

Speaker 1 (06:40):
So I lie, so I ca' I saw, like, no,
it's really great that.

Speaker 2 (06:44):
But Riley really stood up for herself in an incredible
way and was like chill and amazing and like Charlie
was being like so racist and so fucked apologized and
later in the episode told other people, Oh, yeah, I
didn't mean my apology. I didn't mean it. I just
had to settle it like I didn't care.

Speaker 4 (07:03):
I don't care. And Damon Dash's daughter's in it too.

Speaker 1 (07:06):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (07:07):
It's like fun, it's fun.

Speaker 2 (07:08):
It's not you know, it's a nice chill out because
Miami is so intense, the valley is so intense. And
then like having twenty year old drama be about like, well,
I guess the race.

Speaker 1 (07:17):
Stuff was like pretty fucked for sure, but yes, no,
that was I thought it was like she was Riley
calm and she was being so she was like so
clearly communicating what her issue was, and he was just
like yeah, but no, like I hate, like I hate
that guy, and I literally settle, we could like relax
and it's like, you know you he's straight up like

(07:38):
did an impersonation of Riley talking to someone with the
finger spinning his neck like ring like in a circle
and moving his finger around. And then they cut to
the footage and it's like none of that is obvious,
like is happening?

Speaker 3 (07:51):
No?

Speaker 1 (07:52):
So and then she I love what she calls Candy
and she's and she's like he did the finger wag
and Candy's.

Speaker 2 (07:57):
Like, no, he did not, Like it's so good, Miami.
He's incredible too, like Brava. I mean, summer is always
a desert and stuff. But like they're they're trying. They're
giving us some little there's giving us some goods.

Speaker 1 (08:08):
I feel, and I'm gonna be I'm gonna have a
lot because I'm gonna have a lot to love hotel
and next gen I'm gonna get into. But can we
also now go to bitcoin torture house, which I have
never heard of, And I literally just googled it that
a month This happened a month ago. Obviously you live
in New York, so maybe you're getting this kind of
stuff more.

Speaker 2 (08:28):
I don't know why this didn't I of him running away.
I mean things are happening so far. I mean I
went on stage in Charlotte at like seven, and when
I got off stage, Iran was bombed.

Speaker 4 (08:39):
Yeah yeah, yeah yeah. Oh.

Speaker 2 (08:41):
Also, while I was on stage, a flying cockroach landed
in my hair.

Speaker 1 (08:46):
Stop it, Lisa, stop it. You reacted while more to
that than Iran being bombed, And well I knew about
Iran being bombed. A flying congratulated in your hair? How
did you even? Is it on tape? It is, I'm
posting the clip.

Speaker 4 (09:00):
Don't worry. The clip's going up.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
The clip will be up the way. The clip has
to be comedian destroys flying cockroach that tries to heckle
her during set.

Speaker 4 (09:12):
What I'm definitely doing that.

Speaker 1 (09:15):
Comedian destroys cockroach heckler. Oh my god, I cannot that
is Look, I'm not even like a scary bug person,
because like I kill all the bugs in our house,
but cockroaches are another yeah, another level. Yeah, it's really
They're really in the South. Where you were in the South,
Were they calling it a pal meadow bug? Were they
trying to downplay it? Were you with a different name.

Speaker 2 (09:35):
They might have called it a different name, and then
you know they're big things like it. It's the South, Yeah,
I get, but it was definitely a wild, a wild thing.
But I also, okay, I'm like embarrassed because in Atlanta
flying cockroach landed on me as well.

Speaker 4 (09:51):
So it's like two cities in a row.

Speaker 2 (09:52):
So obviously I have to google what this means about
my spirit. But I was at another comedian's pool. It
was late at night after the shows, and we're sitting
and I feel a bug land on my leg, but
I go be mature, it doesn't matter, it's okay. Then
it flies and lands on my arm and that's when
I flip out.

Speaker 4 (10:11):
It falls in the pool and it's struggling. It's struggling.

Speaker 2 (10:15):
It's struggling, and it's like, no wonder cockroach just survived
like the dinosaurs, like truly was struggling for so long.
We finally couldn't look at it anymore, and so she
went to go cover it with a leaf, but instead
it used itself to like prop the other way and
then swam then got out of the pool and then
walked straight for revenge.

Speaker 1 (10:35):
That cockroach was making it. Wow.

Speaker 2 (10:38):
Yeah, but so I wasn't even like, I mean, my
hair was different. But yeah, I've had a cockroach on
like every part of my body.

Speaker 4 (10:45):
While I was in the South. Yuck, yuck, yuck. Is right?

Speaker 1 (10:54):
Okay, But is it okay if we just really quickly
touch on this fucking yes, we gotta get back to yes, yes,
this okay. I'm reading a CBS news article that I
just googled that it unidentified twenty eight year old man
managed to escape from his alleged captors on May twenty third.
This all happened like a month ago in Soho, bloodied
and not wearing shoes. I mean, this is an SVU episode.

(11:15):
People are constantly sending us SFU episodes to our dms.
I don't know why I didn't get this guy, he
told police, and two cryptocurrency investors, a thirty seven year
old and a thirty three year old, have been charged
with the kidnapping, on assault an unlawful prisonment. They're being
held without that like what was their real like why wow?

Speaker 4 (11:34):
Oh, I don't know, torture but they.

Speaker 1 (11:36):
Are invest in our crypto invest Like what the hell
were they just like drugged to the hilt and thought
this was like gonna be fun. That is so nuts.

Speaker 4 (11:47):
It's nuts.

Speaker 1 (11:49):
They were threatening to have the man's family killed unless
he paid them a bitcoin. Okay, so it sounds like
there was a bit of a ransom situation happening as
well or blackmail. Two weeks he was held as they
thought him as they tried to get him to give
up the password for his bitcoin wallet.

Speaker 2 (12:10):
Oh and that how that Wow? I wonder how much
money was there that he wouldn't give it up? Yeah,
because because bitcoin is not right, because then you would,
well maybe they would.

Speaker 4 (12:19):
He thought they would kill him if he.

Speaker 1 (12:21):
Told Yeah, because once they have the information, what's.

Speaker 4 (12:24):
To keep in mind that.

Speaker 2 (12:25):
I'm like, because then you can get it back if
you go to the whatever whatever. But I'm like, oh,
then they have what they need.

Speaker 1 (12:31):
They put an air tag around his neck and told
him if he left, they'd find him. It's like, okayal precincts.
Hung him over the ledge of a building. Seems like
they did a couple of stabler things. Hug him over
the ledge of a building, hit him with a gun like,
you know, pointed a gun at his head a bunch
of times. But I guess it's like after a few days,

(12:53):
you're like, if they're not going to go through with
killing me, They're probably not going to kill me. Like
maybe he just thought they forced him to smoke crack
and they pissed on him. Oh my god, Oh my god.
This is so it was. It was seventeen days. So
you know this is going to be a season twenty
seven episode. There's no way this is not a season
twenty seven episode. I bet a writer the fashing. Yeah yeah, yeah.

(13:15):
They're literally getting notes on the episode, and then they're
going to arrest like the Charlie type figure while he's
shooting a reality show.

Speaker 4 (13:22):
Like that's what we're gonna get to.

Speaker 1 (13:25):
Sources say that two NYPD detectives did private security work
for the suspects, but there's no indication that they knew
about the kidnapping. One of these detectives picked the guy
up at the airport at the victim and brought him
to the house, and one of the detectives was assigned
on the security detail for Mayor Eric Adams. Oh.

Speaker 2 (13:43):
Also, if anyone needs something to do, congress Woman from Florida,
Kat Camick, she got an abortion. She called the governor
to save her life.

Speaker 1 (13:53):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (13:54):
Yeah, So if you guys want to call, I call
DC today And he said you must be civil, and
I go, what a civil?

Speaker 4 (14:00):
Mean bit? I call them fascist scum.

Speaker 2 (14:02):
But yeah, if you're in the mood, I think there
are some You should go on her instagram.

Speaker 4 (14:06):
You should go on her instagram.

Speaker 2 (14:07):
And it's interesting, all the conservatives that are anti abortion,
we are not seeing them in the comments.

Speaker 1 (14:12):
For some reason. They're not mad at her. Hmm, for
some reason, she's not being attacked. But there's a DC
office in Osal is it o'cat whatever at Gainesville.

Speaker 4 (14:24):
There's two offices in Florida.

Speaker 2 (14:26):
So call Camick and especially if you live in Florida
and see why she thinks it's okay for her to
get an abortion to save her life, but she's okay
with her constituents bleeding to death. Fucking scum. These people
are scum. I don't know how this even came out.
I truly, like five minutes before we sat down to record,
I saw it and I was like, I can make

(14:46):
a call into the DC office.

Speaker 1 (14:47):
And oh I saw a photo. I saw a photo
of her with an article like in my feet and
was like, she looks very smug in the photo, Like
she looks very like yeah, it's you know, that's the
whole Republican thing is like what's good for me, not
for thee or whatever, you know, Like they're fine with
whatever they get gift for themselves. Like and uh, like
my own parents are like that. When I talk to them,
I'm like, my mom is like I love my mom

(15:10):
to death, but she's like, I would have helped you
get an abortion if you needed one, but I disagree
with abortion. It's like what you know, like it doesn't
make any fucking sense. I can't make it make sense,
but you know, I feel like raging at someone. I
literally have the people voting for Cuomo. It's like, are
you guys honestly?

Speaker 2 (15:28):
I brought up Luigi again sorry on stage, and I
you know, I said some fox up shit and the
audience got weird, and I go, grow up.

Speaker 4 (15:36):
I'm like, are you guys crazy?

Speaker 2 (15:38):
He's being charged with terrorism but not the fucking gunman
and Minnesota who killed people that work for the government,
Like do you are you guys stupid?

Speaker 4 (15:46):
Like I truly like, are you guys stupid?

Speaker 2 (15:47):
And then some people clapped, and then some people were uncomfortable,
but it was just like I.

Speaker 1 (15:51):
Don't know, I barely read. Why do I see it?

Speaker 4 (15:54):
Like I don't get I don't get it.

Speaker 2 (15:55):
I don't get the established I don't get being like, yeah,
the government's not lying, everything's fine.

Speaker 4 (16:01):
Like I don't get it.

Speaker 1 (16:03):
I barely read. Oh man, I'm not gonna start, but
we okay, we're not. There's gonna be an s few episode.
We'll fucking cover it then.

Speaker 2 (16:11):
Sorry, you haven't gotten your little Karen Read fix here
on this podcast. But she's free and we're happy about it,
and you're what we're happy about it. I'm happy about it.
I'm happy about it.

Speaker 1 (16:21):
Like I just what an insane I can't wait for
there to be Like I watched the Karen Read documentary
five part thing on HBO. I guess that was about
like that was like Karen's behind it. But I really
want someone to do like a comprehensive like everything documentary
about the whole trial, the first trial, the second trial,
the whole thing, because the second trial seemed like a

(16:42):
fucking circus even more than the first. So but I'm
glad that she's off. It's it was insane that she
was even being charged with the charge she was getting.
But she did get drunk driving, and that's true something
she was doing and that's.

Speaker 2 (16:58):
Fine, but it's like all you cops, you couldn't even
pin a crime on one dumb bitch, and like you
know what I mean, like it's fun you're doing it,
but like you couldn't even you had to google. Like
you're the ones finding people an evidence and charging people
and you couldn't figure out how to get Like fuck
you God.

Speaker 1 (17:15):
I really have been over using the word scum. And
I don't think there's I mean, I think it's great.
I think it's your word of the moment, and that's
totally fine. I Also, the thing that's crazy about these
people is like, did I call.

Speaker 4 (17:28):
The DC office fascist scum? Yes?

Speaker 1 (17:30):
Yes, I go.

Speaker 4 (17:33):
I hope you don't sleep at night, you fascist scum.

Speaker 1 (17:35):
It's so funny because scum is such a bad word
on the internet. Remember when our friend got banned from
Facebook for just writing men are scum.

Speaker 4 (17:43):
Oh but that's yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:44):
But if you wrote, like something else's scum, I think
it'd be fine. If you wrote democrats are scum, it'd
be okay. Yeah, it was a men are because you
couldn't say I hate men or all men's SuDS.

Speaker 1 (17:54):
And I thought the word scum was that. I was
like oh scumbag, you know, like it's a word i'd
stay in front of my kids practically, And I think
some people think it's really.

Speaker 2 (18:02):
Distas the word on the Jersey Housewives that they were
like so fucking mad at And I was like, I
didn't even know that was a bad word.

Speaker 4 (18:10):
It was something so.

Speaker 1 (18:13):
Like bozo like it was, but it was like maybe
it was rab it was. I googled it. I googled it.
I didn't think of it. I googled, I wrote bad
word all h O NJ really quick and I got
a People thought O slob was so bad.

Speaker 2 (18:28):
Okay, but it's like, but I do I want to
do just another timely thing. I watched Game seven, so
you probably don't care, but it was the Pacers and
the thunder were playing, oh, very young teams. I don't
know if you saw this, but no one could really
drink on the Oklahoma team and they didn't know how
to open champagne and they didn't know what to do
and so like no, like they needed help to open

(18:49):
the bottles. One guy had his first beer ever and
like grimaced, like they didn't know.

Speaker 4 (18:54):
How to party through. Oh my god, that's so funny.

Speaker 1 (18:58):
And it was cute to me. It's like you, but
I bet they went to.

Speaker 4 (19:01):
A strip club after and like had tequila.

Speaker 3 (19:03):
Hope.

Speaker 2 (19:04):
But or it's just you know what we say that
youth aren't really doing that stuff.

Speaker 4 (19:08):
But it's this young.

Speaker 2 (19:09):
Young team and no one really partied or knew how
to party, just like sports dorks.

Speaker 1 (19:14):
But sports dorks. Well, but I went to a sports
bar and I have to show you the mural that
was there because I think you're gonna get a hoot
out of it. Okay, hold on, so and you can
explain it as you look at it. Actually, Okay, wow,
this is wild. Okay. This is like a classic mural

(19:35):
of like Jesus Christ, Like he's not on the cross,
but his arms are splayed out welcoming with like the
sort of sunshine panels in the background that's like very clear,
like this is your Lord and savior Jesus Christ. And
then over him is a soccer ball, a rugby ball,
a baseball, a hockey puck just in like, and he's

(19:56):
right next to a electric labat sign I mean that is.

Speaker 4 (20:01):
And you and there's a scroll in the score.

Speaker 2 (20:03):
The scroll says if sports were a religion, this would
be heaven, but I had to bring up the thunder.

Speaker 4 (20:12):
Of course I.

Speaker 1 (20:13):
Think, yeah a lot, Yeah, yeah, this was fine, and uh,
you know, then we have a horrific episode. Yeah, we
have a horrific episode. This is uh this episode comes
out July first, Happy fourth of July, everybody that could
be our last one and uh, you know, let's get going.

(20:35):
Okay today what a treat and also a nightmare. We
are doing the episode Manhunt, which is episode eighteen from
the second season.

Speaker 2 (20:46):
And well we got into this because I was in
a hotel and SVU just came on as a marathon
this episode and I was watching it edge of my
CEA had no recollection of this.

Speaker 1 (20:55):
I had no recollection of it when I was watching it,
but I know I've seen it, no, and then I
I've watched it twice to get ready for this, and
I still can't comprehend, Like I don't know why I
will seep into my brain, so you know, I can't
wait for this recap.

Speaker 2 (21:08):
But this was like fresh off because we both don't
have memories of it. So it's like me watching TV
being like we got.

Speaker 1 (21:14):
To do this. Yeah, it's like I know that the
episode Parasites, which is one of my favorite episodes ever
with the twins and like where they replace each other.
We've done it on the podcast. That's the episode that
follows this one, and like Countdown as a couple episodes
before this, which is also a classic, the philipsy Moore
Hoffman clown Party episode. I just don't understand how this

(21:37):
one gaffigin What did I say? Oh my god, I
need of course who I meant to say, but we
have we're leaving it.

Speaker 4 (21:45):
No, no, let me leaving.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
That's leave it all right, leave it. I meant to
say gaff again. I of course meant to say gaffagain.
I was just thinking of a blonde man with like
then they kept talking about how bad his teeth were,
and it was definitely Gaffigan in my head. It was
Gaffigan my mouth. The gaffagain was the he was the
red herring. Anyways, The guy in the end wasn't gaff again,
right right, It was a different guy.

Speaker 2 (22:10):
Yeah, gaffagain played like a box picker upper, Yeah, like
loading guy loading, and the main guy was Yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:16):
He had a bad teeth, because I don' think Gaffigan's
teeth are bad anyway, Jim, if you're listening, I apologize, Okay, listen, Yeah,
And it just takes makes no sense that like I
would not remember man Hunt. I also love Gaff again famously,
he did say no to the pod. We did, we did,
We asked, we asked. I asked him personally and he
said not at this time. But Manhunt is just it's

(22:39):
the kind of episode I would love, Like I love
when they're going after a ceial, a ceial anything, like
I'm always into that. And I just I this was
like a pleasure honestly to like kind of redo it
because I was, like, no one I remember Finn and
Munch going on a road trip. I don't remember a
lot of these details, Like I could not figure out
who did it? So okay, Manhunt Season two, episode eighteen.

(23:03):
This airs April of two thousand and one, just a
few short months before nine to eleven. As you know,
we always have to put it in time. So this
couple of people, they it's a guy and a girl.
They spill out of this twenty four hour diner onto
the cold New York City street and he's begging her
like please, Anny, one drink, one little drink, and his
whining is annoying he's like one little drink and she's

(23:26):
like listen, she's being nice. She's like, I'm tired. I
smell like fries. He's like, I like fries. She's like,
it's a pass, babe. I just want to go in
my bath, get in my bed, and snuggle up with
my People magazine.

Speaker 2 (23:37):
And I love that for her. She walks off and
he's like, oh, also, it's like, yeah, nothing is as
sexy as someone.

Speaker 1 (23:44):
Begging fine getting together, dude, I'm like not hot. He's
walking off and he's like, oh, I like fries. I'm
such an idiot. Whatever, and then she walks in the
opposite direction, and then he hears muffled screams as this
girl Annie, who we've just been looking at, is getting
forcibly thrown into a car, and he tries to help her.

(24:08):
He's like, hey, Annie, get off of her, and then
the kidnapper pulls a gun. He backs off. Then we
proceed to see the saddest attempt I've ever seen in
history on this show of two men trying to stop
a crime, Like diner guy literally goes to like touch
the kidnapper on the back gently, and then another guy
runs up and goes let her go very flatly as

(24:32):
the kidnapper just pushes him to the side and drives off.
Like both of these guys are like wait, no, stop,
and it's like they're just trying to rub the guy's
jacket like they don't do anything. And then they both
run after the car, yelling come back here. It's like
get the license play. I don't know. They're just not even.
They're both run after the car yelling come back here.

(24:52):
It's not working, and we see them both like falling
onto the ground. They can't even chase after the vehicle
without falling. Okay, the diner and our protectors men are
protectors protecting us. You know, the good thing that we
had these two men there useless Honestly, the choreography of
it was bad.

Speaker 3 (25:10):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (25:11):
They the diner guy, his name is Butch if you
can believe it, the least Butch man I've ever seen
on the show. The Good Samaritan is named Marty Khani.
That just reminds me of pulp fiction. And uh, now
and then is that not Hanka's area's name. I don't know.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (25:29):
Problems. Can I think of something that's not pop culture?

Speaker 1 (25:33):
Cinematrix Uh, well, this guy being named Butch is like
funny to me. He doesn't look like a guy named Butch.

Speaker 4 (25:40):
Oh No, but that was Bud. Yeah, it separate names,
but Bruce Willis's Butch.

Speaker 1 (25:44):
Do you want to hear something weird? I went to
college with this guy named Alan normal, like the regular
guy I knew. Suddenly, on all of his social media
he's allan quote unquote Butch. Last name, I'm not gonna
say last And I'm like, and people are on there
going happy birthday Butch, like on Facebook and stuff, and

(26:04):
I'm like, post the age of twenty two, I mean
I saw him after college, post the age of twenty five.
This man took on the nickname Butch at a butcher shop. No,
he's like a corporate man. It makes no sense to me.
I don't get it.

Speaker 4 (26:18):
DM him give a same time.

Speaker 1 (26:19):
I need to be like, what happened with the Butcha?
I need to know, all right, so Finn gets the
scoop from uh Munch.

Speaker 2 (26:30):
It's very castanza now that I think about it, because
maybe he pushed Butch on people.

Speaker 4 (26:34):
I keep thinking.

Speaker 2 (26:35):
Maybe it happened naturally in a different thing, like he
started playing volleyball. I don't know, right, It's like, if
that was your why is it on all your social
Like your social is usually for connecting to people that
you like know from the past, and like, it's weird
that that's like not what anybody was ever calling you
in college or maybe it was a high school nickname
that He's like, I'm going to get back into it.

Speaker 1 (26:54):
It's very confusing. Never heard of it until we were
like in our late twenties and I see his post
pop up and be like, but anyway, weird. So Finn
gets to scoop from munch, who uh oh recognizes the
em o of this girl getting kidnapped, right, there was
chloroform found at the scene to knock her out like that,
because you didn't.

Speaker 2 (27:14):
Really hear chloroform each other? Make people pay for a
live stream. I want to know what it feels like.
Does is it permanent brain damage or not?

Speaker 1 (27:22):
Yeah? Like, can you do just like a little bit
where you get a little bit woozy and then or.

Speaker 4 (27:27):
Like, I bet people would pay to watch this chloroform
each other.

Speaker 1 (27:32):
Weigh in. Let us know if you guys would pay
them to watch us just do a gentle chloroforming of
one another. But Jared has a really funny joke about
chloroform where he talks about how like people have so
many guns and they act like that's not weird. He's like,
it's just weird that you have thirty guns, Like if
I had, what if I just invited you over my
house and I said, and this is my collection of
chloroform soaked rags. I don't use it to hurt people.

(27:54):
I just like to have it, you know. And they
were just like hanging on the wall like you'd be like,
that's fucking weird.

Speaker 4 (28:01):
So back to this, Yeah, we're really not getting far.

Speaker 1 (28:06):
The chloroform Munch is like the chloroform were in the
cold open Yeah, oh yeah baby, or no, we're even
we're not even past. So the chloroform, the ceiling of
the of the girl off the street, like it all
matches the same mo Last summer, a guy kidnapped four
women the same way, raped and tortured them and left

(28:26):
their bodies stacked in a warehouse. And Finn's like, oh,
the Bowery Stalker. I know about that. So they go
and they talk to Marty and Butch, who remembers a lot.
Butch is like, I've maybe seen the guy in the
diner a couple times, like I noticed a tattoo of
a cat on his right forearm. And then the EMT
interrupts and is like, we got to get him on
the bus. And it's like they literally fell chasing a car.

(28:48):
Like one of them has a bandage around his knee.
You have to take him in the ambulance right now,
Like I feel like I got a really cold right
And then Finn is like, all right, how long do
you think we have that the Stalker will keep this
girl alive? And Munch goes until he's finished with her. Yikes,
I hate dare Why no so credits And now the

(29:10):
top of act one, we're at the precinct. This is,
by the way, a Munch and fin focused episode, Like
we get Benson and Stabler up top here a little bit.
They're sprinkled, but we don't get a lot of them
in this episode. This is we are testing the chemistry
of Richard Belzer and Ic who have just become partners,
you know, like Icy only joined in this season. So

(29:32):
the Stalker they're filling in. Benson and Stabler are talking
to Kragan, they're filling in Cabot. The Stalker hasn't attacked
in a year. They thought maybe he went underground in
walks Munch and he's like, they're like, you're late. He's like,
I've been up all night interviewing witnesses. And they're like, well,
the DA wants answers. This is a top priority for her.
You can have warrants, labs, whatever you need. And he's like,

(29:52):
why all the backup all of a sudden, And Cabot's like, oh, well,
the DA just knows how elusive this guy's been. And
Munch is like all paranoid. It's like, oh, because I
didn't get him last time, is that why now you're
trying to like help me. It's like whatever. Daddy Kraign
tries to calm baby down, but he's annoyed. He's like, oh, well,
if I'm the lead on this case, then why are
you guys meeting without me right now? This is my case?

(30:12):
And he's like you're still the primary, but you might
need backup, and like our only agenda is catching this guy.
And it's like even Munch gets caught up in the
whole my case, my glory, territorial mail cop bullshit, you know,
like Munch doesn't do this much later on, but here
it's like we're seeing even this guy is like, wait,
this is mine, when it's like, if you all just

(30:33):
worked as a fucking team, you could just get it done.
Munch walks and talks and fills cabin in on everything
he knows about a year ago, this girl named Sarah
Kimmel stumbled into a bar on Avenue, d naked, beaten
and claiming that a man with a beard imprisoned her
in an abandoned warehouse on Broom. When they raided the warehouse,
they found a makeshift sell torture instruments and formutilated bodies,

(30:57):
some partials, but nothing in the system. And uh. They
stayed on the building for a month but nothing came
of it, and this guy just vanished. So Finn busts
in with some news about the tattoo. They got a
hit a scale named Frank Tark Taggart on parole for
assault and he works at the fish market. So I

(31:18):
didn't I don't know where the fish market is. Is
there a fish market down oh, South Street, Seaport? Probably? Okay,
So they go down to the fish market and Finn
is talking shit about how desperate you have to be
to work at a place like this, and Munch is like, oh,
I worked here as a kid, like and it's just so.

Speaker 4 (31:34):
Funny because he's like ough the.

Speaker 1 (31:35):
Fish market and Lunch is like, yeah, brings me back
to my childhood. And Finn can't believe that Munch ever
got any ass after working a shift in like a
smelly fish dump all day, and Munch is like, yeah,
two words aqua velva, a hot shower and some aqua velva.
You smell like victim Oone who I had to google.
He's a big band singer from the fifties. And you
can always trust Munch to have his finger on the

(31:56):
pulse with the references. Okay, So now there's a guy
at the fish market who's never been happier to see Munch,
and his name is Olivetti. Munch calls him olive and
he's like Olive and he's like Munchie. They hug. They
are childhood friends. So this guy Munch got out of
the fish market job and became an s VU detective.
Olivetti he stayed at the fish market forever and they're like,

(32:19):
where's Frank Taggart. He points them to him, and uh, like,
whoever is doing the fight choreography on this episode was
out sick or something for this episode, because this guy
like slow walks towards Finn, grabs Finn and just places
him slowly on a table full of fish and ice.
It's very not scary, it's not threatening. Finn probably should

(32:40):
have been able to like defend himself, and then Munch
pulls a gun and they've got this guy's dumb ass,
but the whole thing is so slow. It's just like,
I don't know, watch it again. It's really slow and bad.
Finn's also pissed at the guy. He's like, now you've
got my coat all fishy, it's a new coat. And
then Munch again callback goes aqua velva, so well, now

(33:02):
you know this guy also, like you didn't think assaulting
a cop was going to get you brought in like
you are. You've literally been in prison before, like you
know how this works. So in interrogation, Munch and Finn
are talking to Taggart about his tattoo and he's like, yeah,
it's an original from Elmo's Tats on Eighth Street, and
he's got an alibi from the night before he was

(33:23):
working the door at Rusty's Bar and Finn tells Taggert, well,
we like you for this kidnapping, and he's like, I
was nowhere near that place of that kidnapping, and any
witness who puts me there is lying. You kind of
believe him because A Nope, they never catch the guy
in the first five minutes of the show, so it's
probably not him. But now they're filling in Kragan, and

(33:43):
the bartender at Rusty says that Taggart did duck out
around eleven, so he did have time to get to
the diner, so his alibi is not even fully full proof.
But the car isn't registered to him because they basically
everyone has identified what they keep calling a four by four,
but it's a pat it's like a SUV and that
car there's no car registered to him, but he may

(34:04):
have stolen it. They're gonna put this guy in a
lineup for the witnesses, and they're like, go get Sarah Kimmel,
go get the victim who got away, Go get the girl.
Let's re traumatize her. And Munch doesn't want to do it.
He's like, I don't want to fuck with this girl.
This guy fucked her up, like traumatized her, like she
was escaped and wanted into a bar naked and beaten.
Come on. But Craigan's like, you know how it works, buddy,

(34:25):
you gotta do it, so now. Butcher's at the lineup
and he's like, I don't I don't know if I
see him. I really only noticed the tattoo and the gun.
And when I was watching the scene, he's not wearing
anything over his face, is he like, when the guy takes.

Speaker 2 (34:40):
Her, I told you, I don't remember anything. I'm sitting
in in my seat.

Speaker 3 (34:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:43):
Yeah, Like I thought it was like weird that you
didn't look at his face at all. But anyway, and
so he he's like, all I focused on was the
tattoo and the gun he was holding on me. And
then Marty Potter comes in there and erroneously identifies a cop.
He's like, how around, Oh, yes, okay, Richard in Chicago.
I can't believe you just used that word. I did

(35:05):
a dance in school in my Dan's clause one time
to a song that Moses supposes his toses or roses,
but Moses supposes erroneously, and that's how I know that
word and how why I say it all the time.
But he erroneously says it's number five, number five, and
number five is a fucking cop who's in the lineup
as a as a plant. So now Sarah bad's for sex.

(35:27):
Now you have this girl taken, and now you can't
even get a look at the guy's face. You brush
your hand against the vicens, play anything, nothing, just staring
at the tattoo. So and he's like, I think I
might have seen him in the diner. It's like, if
you saw him in the diner, you would kind of
know what his face looked like. I don't know. So
now it's up to Sarah the victim, and either in

(35:48):
an office at the precinct. Sarah looks nervous. She doesn't
want to id this monster. And Sarah Kimmel's played by
Anna Bellknap, who was actually just in a season twenty
four episode called A Trauma and a Pear Tree, which
I think is the episode where Rollin's and Creasy get married.
But I don't know what the plot of that episode
is because it's in a more recent season and I

(36:09):
tried to find it but I couldn't. But I wanted
to give you one little fun tidbit. She is married
to the man who wrote the Emoji movie. I thought
you would like that because I know you like the
Emoji movie too, so Anna bell Knap. So Sarah is
telling Munch like, I have to keep my lights on,
like and he's like, oh, we're not going to let
him hurt you. This guy's not gonna hurt you anymore

(36:30):
or whatever, and she's like, I have to sleep with
my lights on because I think I see him in
my apartment. Like I'm twenty eight and I'm living on
disability because I can't leave the house. Don't tell me
he can't hurt me, you know. And Munch is like,
all right, well he might have someone else, like he
might have another victim, And that's what kind of convinces
her to do it. So in the room at the lineup,

(36:53):
she gets really upset. She's trembling, but then she turns
to Munch and goes, he's not there. She's crowned through
t She's like, he's not there, He's not in there,
which is probably making her scared because that means he's
still fucking out there. Munch and Finn take her home,
and Munch is mad because he's like, I didn't want
to have to bring her in. But I would also
say that if you guys suspect that this killer is

(37:15):
back on the loose, you'd put a uniform on her house.
She's the only surviving victim, Like, she's the only person
that could actually like id him if he does get
brought in, So wouldn't you protect her? Like he's back
in the city where she was attacked, Like, but they
just drop her off at her house, and Ben Munch
is pissed, Like, but it's like lighting a fire under
him that they want to get this guy. Finn suggests

(37:37):
that maybe Taggart's tattoo from Elmo's wasn't as original as
he thought it was. So now they're at the tattoo
shop and I'm calling the guy Elmo. It's not his name,
but the guy who is the tattoo artist at Elmo's.
He is a huge fan of the tattoo. But he's like,
but it's not my work. He's like, it's gorgeous art,
but it's not mine. A guy brought it in last
summer on a sketch and asked me to do the tattoo,

(37:58):
and he left me this sketch as a bonus, as
he thought my work was so good. He's like, I've
done him on a few other people, but I could
count on one hand how many most people are into
goth these days, he says. And he doesn't. He's like,
I don't really keep names and addresses of my clients.
It's not really that kind of operation. And but he
can immediately describe every single person he's given that specific
tattoo to a guy with a cat on a leash,

(38:20):
a woman wrestler, a guy who smells like rotten fish,
and then the guy who brought in the sketch, who
was a huge guy with a beard.

Speaker 2 (38:27):
And this is so SVU to me because this guy
is like like if I was getting a tattoo while
someone was being talked to by the police, I'd be like,
you guys could finish your comvo, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:37):
But he's like he's like putting it out, he's like
getting to work on the I'm like, just take a moment.
I can't believe the guy didn't complain, like so classic
s yeah, I understand even lugging boxes or making drinks
by like actively tattooing, right right, And like I don't
know who would be like I don't want to hear

(38:58):
what's going on with the cops in this juicy investi
gation right now, just get my tattoo done, like i'd
be like I want to listen, you know.

Speaker 4 (39:05):
But he.

Speaker 1 (39:08):
Says that the guy that brought in the sketch said
that the Bobcat was like a platoon his platoon's name,
mascot or something in the service. And this guy truly
never forgets a goddamn thing, Like he has so many
details about this sketch. And he tells them that they
can take the sketch with him. So now we're talking
to a tech who does not make as big of

(39:29):
an oppression as like a Bert Trevor. And he's managed
to get a couple of prints off the sketch, and
one set of prints belonged to Elmo and the other
belonged to John Doe. And he ran that those John
Doe prints through the system and got a hit on
Darryl R. Kern, who was dishonorably discharged from the military
in nineteen ninety nine, right around when the original attacks started.

(39:51):
So now a whole team is there and they bust
into this guy's apartment. It's like the full tactical open
up NYPD. They bust in there. This loser's got guns, knives, weapons,
all this kind of shit mounted up on the wall
like a little shrine to his tiny dick. And Finn
says something like he's impressed by it, but I can't

(40:12):
tell if it's sarcastic or not. But you know, early Finn,
they hadn't had they didn't have him fleshed out yet
he was like cool guns, Like I don't know. So
they're like, check out his easy pass bill. So now
we're at the precinct and Munch and Finn are filling
inventson and Sabler, and this guy basically takes the same
route all the way, all the time, back and forth
to upstate New York. Like not the fucking Hudson River Valley.

(40:32):
We're talking to Utica. We're talking way up there in
the top of the state, near the Canadian border. And
this guy drives a ninety two pathfinder which matches the
car that's been described for taking Annie. And then two
days after he makes the trip up there again, if
you're a serial killer, you're probably not using an easy pass.

(40:54):
But whatever, I'm again not here to give people tips
and tricks. My dad won't get an easy pass because
he doesn't want the government tracking him.

Speaker 2 (41:01):
So Dad takes your family garbage to the dump. He's
obvious unhinged.

Speaker 1 (41:07):
But even he in his paranoia and he's not committing
heinous murders, doesn't use an easy pass. I mean, you know,
it's so insane. I just got one, my first one
actually as a fuck you, So now I can get
to the airport really quickly. So two days after he
takes that route up there, he takes the same route back.
And they know this because they've got all this easy

(41:28):
pass record, and they figured out that like seven women
have gone missing within days of these trips, both like
the outbound and the inbound trips to New York. So
Daddy Craigan is like, boys, pack your bags, you're going
up north. So then when we see a car pulling
into small town upstate New York, and Munch and Finn
are bickering like an old married couple. Like Munch doesn't

(41:50):
like Finn's driving. He feels sick because he was driving
so bad. And now they're in Walden Falls, New York,
and boy, oh boy, the locals are pumped. The secretary
goes chief the detectives from New York City are here,
Like she's psyched. She's like, tell me about Broadway and
the chief is like, oh, hi, boys, you want like
a soda pop or something like this guy is. We've

(42:11):
seen this man in so much stuff. His name is
Adam Lefev. He is so familiar. He's got one hundred
and forty plus credits. He's been in three other svus,
He's been in a bunch of episodes of Original Recipe.
If you google him right now, Adam Lefev, like, you'll
be like, he I've seen him in so many things.
He's just like a character guy that you see all
the time. He's so small town upstate New York police chief.

(42:31):
He's like, oh, boys, okay, let's get going. So then
they ask him about Darryl Kern. He's like, well, I've
never heard of him, and I know everybody in this town.
And you're like, okay, yeah, I don't think the serial
killers that flee up to your town like check in
at the precinct when they get there, and then they
are going to have Officer Cheryl Baxter. She walks in.
She's gonna help them out, and they're like She's like
you guys want to settle in or hit the gas

(42:52):
station first, and they're like, we don't actually need to
like go unpack at our hotel. We could go just
get this guy. So they go to the gas station.
The guy who works at the gas station, he can't
really identify a photo of Annie, but he's like, uh no,
but the guy that you're looking for, he likes to
hunt because he spent a lot of time over at
Jordie's Guns and Ammo, which is right across the street.

(43:13):
So now they're at Jordi's Guns and Ammo, and the
guy there goes, oh, yeah, that guy that's Arnold Cokeley
looking at a picture of Darryl Kern. And this guy
Jordi is being very Cagy, classic gun salesman to a enthusiast,
you know, like just completely like uh was illegal to
have guns? Like why are you guys asking all these questions?

(43:34):
And then he's like they're like, uh, you got to
give us his file, and it's like he kind of protests,
but he knows he's gonna have to, so he just
goes and gets it. And now before sharing his opinion
that the government is up everyone's ass and it's beginning
to be like Russia around here, and Munch is like,
Russia's a democracy now, and he's like that's what I mean.
And it's like, I don't know if anything makes sense

(43:55):
that you're talking about, sir, but he hands over the
file on Arnold Cokeley. So back at walden Falls PD,
Finn is impressed that they have all their files computerized
because they don't have that at SVU yet and walden
Falls is like, they probably don't have as many crimes,
but they're all on a computer system, and then Munch
pops in with some hot goss. Arnold Cochley and his

(44:16):
wife went missing from Tribeca five months ago, and someone
is using his ID to buy weapons, which means that
now the ATF is getting involved, and Baxter tells them, well,
we have no match for property under the name Cochley
or Kern, and they're like, well, check the names of
all the other people who have gone missing along this
route that we've discovered, right, which feels like there would

(44:38):
be way more people missing from New York City than
just like a couple, like than even seven, but whatever,
And so we cut to Munch and Finn sharing a
shitty hotel room in Upstate New York. This is like
the precursor to when Live in Rollins are having their
cute little girls wine night, but then they discovered that
there's a camera behind the mirror. This is the way
earlier version, and it's Munch and and they are pissed

(45:01):
that they have to be in the same room together.
Finn is like, God, when I was in narcotics, we
got cool apartments. I got put up in the West
Village once, like when I was undercover. And then he's like,
then I had to go home to my tiny shoe
box in Brooklyn, and I was bumping into the furniture
because I was used to the lap of luxury. And
Munch goes, wow, eight months of the cold shoulder, and
now I can't shut you up, which is funny, and

(45:25):
he asks Finn, like, why did you leave narcotics. He's like,
my partner took a bullet that was meant for me,
and it took all the fun out of it. We
later find out who that partner is when he goes
kind of a little bit cuckoo and start sniping people.
Or no, it's not even him, it's his daughter. Remember
it's not him, it's his daughter. They think it's him.
It's his daughter, and he asks much why did you

(45:47):
leave Homicide and he's like, well, after my last marriage
broke up, I came back to New York from Baltimore.
As we all know, Munch is one of the most
featured characters in multiple shows. He was in homicide, Life
on the Streets and which took place in Baltimore, I believe, right.
And then when he came back to New York City
after that marriage broke up, SVU was the only place
that had space for him, and he thought it was

(46:08):
going to be all great, but living victims fuck you up,
you know. And then he gets a phone call. It's
Stabler and basically they found out that going through kerrn stuff,
they found blueprints for a bomb shelter that was drawn
up by a contractor in walden Farms, New York, in
this little town that they're in. So he calls Baxter
and is like, find the contractor, have him meet us

(46:29):
at the precinct in twenty we're burning the midnight oil
here in Walden Falls. So when they get to the
Walden Falls precinct, the g sure you bet you a
police chief is facing off with the Fed and they're
as usual, two men having a pissing contest over jurisdiction,
and the Fed's like, you're in over your head and
the guy the they're like, this guy has a lot

(46:50):
of firepower. And then Munch busts in and says, whatever,
this FED is full of shit. And it turns out
this guy's name is Gus Stone from the ATF, and
he's like, step aside. And then Stone is like, you know,
we have a warrant for Kern's arrest, and Munch is like, well,
I have a lead in a case that could save
a woman's life, So who takes precedence. The ATF just
decides to kind of back off for the moment. Now

(47:11):
they're looking at the blueprints. The contractor is there. He goes, yeah,
this guy asked me to design a bunker for Armageddon
and the race Wars, which is I know that there's
been doomsday preppers for a long time, but this episode
is from two thousand and one. Like that was pretty
early to be getting on the doomsday prepping bandwagon, you know.
I feel like that was later in the odds that
that became a more widespread part of like the culture.

Speaker 4 (47:34):
Yeah, no, for.

Speaker 2 (47:35):
Sure, but I'm thinking, like everyone every generation thinks like
their world like the end is near. So I wonder
if people were prepping in like the eighteen hundred or whatever,
like religious nuts exist, sure, but part of the culture,
I think, like, yeah, when they started putting it on,
like A and E and thel Buckers and like, but
now Cold War Cold War people had bunkers.

Speaker 1 (47:58):
The Mansons talked about the race wars. I mean that's
what the Mansons were warning about, a race war like
that was that's been going on forever. It's just making
a bunker, like I know, the Cold War.

Speaker 4 (48:08):
There was a episode.

Speaker 1 (48:10):
Okay, yeah, so I'm wrong, I guess I just think, like, no,
I'm with you.

Speaker 2 (48:14):
But yeah, the guys the bomb shelter stuff, I think
suring Cold war stuff people had those.

Speaker 1 (48:21):
Yeah, so anyway, this guy made it for him. He goes, Yep,
sure did make this total wacko guy a bomb shelter.

Speaker 2 (48:30):
What I did learn is, even if those bomb shelter
people were onto something and the world is obviously fucked,
you don't want to spend time with them.

Speaker 1 (48:36):
No, I don't want them to be the last one
surviving where they going to repopulate the earth. With all
the people that thought to make a bunker. I don't
think so, but this contractor goes, yes, I built this
guy a bunker, and I built it ten miles away.
So now everyone has decided they're gonna work together. They're
gonna get all their guys together and nail this sick fuck.
So now we've got lots of cops in the snowy

(48:58):
woods surrounding a cabin. Okay, they slam the door, the
guy's door open. It's very dramatic, but the guy's not there.
But then the chief finds a cellar door. Munch goes
down the cellar steps and done done. In a very
very sad way, there is a dead woman lying in
a pool of blood on the floor and it is Annie,
and Munch says, kneels down and goes sorry Annie. And

(49:20):
then they flash their flashlights on the wall and it
is filled with torture equipment chains, Like it's fucking sick,
and it's just awful because it's like it's possible that
they were hours away from saving her, you know, like
it doesn't look like she's been there for a ton
of time. So cut to commercial on that gorgeous note,

(49:43):
and when we come back, tons of bodies wrapped in
plastic on the snowy ground. The troopers and all these
people are digging up more. They've already found fifteen bodies
buried in shallow graves, including three kids. They think Kern
pulled out maybe an hour before they got there, and
Finn thinks somebody must have tipped them off. So Monch
is talking to the Emmy at the crime scene and

(50:07):
she's pissed. This is like the Emmy up in Walden Falls,
and she's like, no, I could have gone my entire
life without seeing this shit that I just had to see,
and you guys brought it to my doorstep. This woman
had contusions, broken bones, bruises, I mean, penetration with a
foreign object, and then he blew her face off with
a forty four. So this man is like an absolute

(50:29):
psychopath who's just like enjoying torturing women. And then they
found something in the cabin that Munch needs to see.
And they find this book and it's like an operational
manual and it's but it's been it's like it's like
a diary almost, and the last entry was dated yesterday
and it says position compromised as long as the worm

(50:51):
stays in the apple, rendezvous at the extraction point, operation terminated,
Like it's written in all this kind of military language,
but it's hand and like by this guy, they think.
And Baxter, the woman cop from walden Falls, is like
he must have had an accomplice. And they, you know,
they all put their big brains together and they're like,
the worm in the apple means they're headed back to

(51:13):
the big apple, great decoding, great work back at SVU.
The whole handbook thing they say, is written in pseudo
military speak. And he calls the accomplice is always called
the worm. He calls himself the Eagle. And essentially what
they've discovered is that this guy kills. The reason why
there are kids discovered is because he'll kill an entire
family just to get their credit card to like keep

(51:33):
going on his little mission here. He killed a plumber
from Brooklyn for that cabin, so that cabin belonged to
this plumber from Brooklyn, I think named Ernie. And Craigan
is like this or they say the accomplice must be
an army buddy if this is how they're communicating with this,
like he must be an army buddy, so Craigan uses
his military connects to get them some info. Now they're

(51:56):
talking to some military guy who's like, yeah, the Bobcat
like a platoon that this guy was in. They're elite
special tactical ops. But Kern he spent most of his
time in the kitchen. And they're like, we thought he
was a weapon specialist and they're like, no, Basically, it
basically seems like Kern was a psycho who came to
the military because he liked to kill things. And he

(52:18):
says that the final straw was like, there was a
squirrel who used to hang out by the mess hall
and at some point Kern killed it, skinned it, and
then tried to put the meat of it into a
stew to feed everybody. And he was sent to the
brig for psychological testing and was diagnosed with antisocial personality
disorder and pronounced unfit for duty. And did he hang

(52:39):
out with anybody? They said, They're like, ah, this one
guy who delivered dry goods to the mess hall. He
worked out of a company. He worked at a company
out of Brooklyn. So now they're at Magoo's vending company
literally what it's called, and a manager tells them that Marvin.
Oh yeah, he's one of my best guys. He's not
working today because he has national goals. And they're like, oh,

(53:01):
he's a weekend warrior, and he's like, yup. And then
they go, did anyone mention that today's Thursday? Like he
shouldn't be He wouldn't be working today if it's like
his weekends, you know. And so the boss, the boss
goes over to some guy and goes, hey, nu'mb nuts,
you gotta smoke a whole pack or finish your run
sometime today, like because the guy's smoking cigarettes and I
just I love a guy like this. And he's like,

(53:22):
I can give you Marvin's address, but I think he's
in the wilderness somewhere. So they give him the address,
They get his address, they surround his house, and this
is like the third swatting of the episode. So I
really have my fingers crossed that this one's gonna work out.
They knock on the door and just as they're about
to you know, bust down a third door and old
lady opens the door and she's like, oh, hello, Marvin

(53:43):
isn't here. He left this morning, are you guys? Friends
of his? So now they're inside talking to this lady.
She's bringing him tea and she's like, I'm Marvin's aunt Mary.
His mother died when he was a child. Want to
know how his father beat her to death with an
iron because he didn't like the way she did his shirts.
So that's Marvin's origin story. And she's like, he's always

(54:04):
been a loving boy. And then she goes he's with
the Green Berets, and we know Marvin is not with
the Green Berets. He delivers for Magoo's vending, but he
can't tell his aunt that he needs to live a
life of glory in her eyes. Now she's whipped out
a photo album and she's showing pictures of him and
they're like, oh, there he is with his friend Darryl,

(54:24):
and holy shit. The plot twist is that Marvin is
fucking Marty the good Samaritan who tried to chase down
the car, Like he wasn't trying to stop the car,
he was trying to get in it when he was
running after or like you know, but he did come
up and go hey, come back here, stop or whatever,
but maybe it was like all in ask the other

(54:45):
guy was okay, wow, yeah, And what I didn't recognize
at the beginning, either about this guy who was playing
Marty when he was getting questioned or whatever. Is that
he is the actor Paul Sparks who I recognize from
tons of shit. He's in like thy episodes of House
of Cards. He's the one that has an affair with
Robin Wright pen the first lady in the House of Cards.
And he's in that show The Better Sister that you

(55:07):
just watched, and he's in Physical He's in like a lot.
This man works a ton. What's the name, Paul Sparks.
So now they're leaving this old lady's house and Munch
is furious. He's like, we had this guy in our
precinct and we didn't know it, Like we had this accomplice.
And Finn gets a call that the state police found

(55:28):
the Pathfinder outside of Walden Falls, and uh, supposedly a bald,
clean shaven man got out and then carjacked a mother
and a kid and took off. So this guy that
they've all been looking for, a guy with a beard,
he's obviously shaved fugitive style to you know, avoid detection.
So back at has Few, they're brainstorming this guy's probably

(55:50):
headed to Canada with these hostages. They're now trying to
trace the phones that Kern and Marvin have been contacting
each other with, and they can see that they're headed
to the border, and Munch calls state police, and you
know they're going to try to head these guys off
before they make it over, or at least Kern, they're
going to try to head him off before he crosses
the border. So Munch and Finn are headed back on

(56:10):
the road, but this time they're headed to the border.

Speaker 4 (56:13):
Baby.

Speaker 1 (56:13):
They spot two cars outside of a farmhouse and they
think they can surprise these guys inside if they're there.
Fourth time of the show, fourth time in one episode.
Cops are surrounding this place. Okay, they spread out, guns drawn.
It's atf it's state troopers, it's truly all of the
law enforcement branches working in harmony. They like bust into

(56:36):
the house and I don't think they're finding anything. Munch
takes the shed. When he opens the shed, what does
he find our good samaritan Marty slash accomplice Marvin strung up,
bleeding out, and he's got two cell phones taped to
his shirt. So this guy has been fucking with the

(56:57):
NYPD and now he's just killed his accomplice to get away.
Munch is having a full temper tantrum. He's kicking shit,
he's yelling, son of a bitch. He does not like
being played for a fool, and Finn explains, look, he
still needs that mother and the kid, so like you know,
and then Finn gets a call and the ATF is explaining, look,
we've got an APB out for this guy, the borders

(57:17):
on alert for him. And then Finn reports back from
his phone call that it's like a freaky, deeky Robert
Durst like a story. This guy just got busted for
shoplifting in Mallory Town. Like you've committed all these horrible
crimes and now you're gonna get busted shoplifting. It's wild,
but that's exactly what happened to Robert Durst. So yeah,

(57:39):
So Mallory Town is right over the border, and now
the cops are in Ontario and Cabot is there as well,
and they're like what are you doing here? And she's like,
I'm here to serve an extradition warrant and Munch is like,
let me talk to the hostages, like the mom and
the daughter that they they found with him. The mom
looks on edge. Okay, She's like, get me out of here.

(58:00):
I want to get to the hospital when my daughter
wakes up like I've been through hell. And finally she
tells them what like the details. He had a knife
when he abducted them. He threatened to kill her daughter.
Then at the farmhouse where they just were, he asked
an old lady for directions and when she turned her back,
he cut her throat. And then the woman says, then

(58:20):
her husband came running out and he cut his throat
before he could even say anything. So she just watched
this guy murder an old couple that lived in a farmhouse,
you know, upstate in the in a blink of an eye.
So she's traumatized. Then she says, Marvin Slash Marty showed
up and he took him to the garage. She said

(58:41):
she heard screams and then Kern came back covered in blood.
He changed and told them to get into the farmer's
truck that they were going to Canada. She starts crying.
She's like, he said he was going to kill both
of us, and he said that the police were so
stupid that they would never find him, so Munch is
even more pissed about this, like who cares about finding
out that there's even more dead bodies? We are furious
that he thinks the cops are dumb and that he

(59:02):
is smarter than them. So now we're outside chatting. It's Munch,
Finn and Cabot, and Finn points out that this guy
gutted his partner when he was alive, Like the screams
imply that this guy was like tortured alive, and you
know now he's obviously murdered. He might be setting the
grounds for an insanity defense, they think, because that's so
cruel and unusual. They can't imagine that somebody saying would

(59:25):
do that, And Cabot tells them a confession would really
help them with the extradition, and Munch is like, let
me get a run at this sky, and I want
to do it alone, So here we go. He gets
in there and he immediately insults the guy for getting
busted shoplifting. He's like, what are you like an amateur?
And the guy playing Kern is R. E. Rogers, who

(59:47):
even crazier than I don't remember this episode is Tommy Callahan,
the cop who gets fucked up on the malaria drugs
in Goliath and starts attacking people and stuff. Remember we
just did that episode with Amy Landecker. He was the
one married to her. He's an OZ guy. He's an
A yeah, and he's an OZ guy. It looks like
he stopped acting a while ago. But I'm just surprised

(01:00:08):
that I wasn't like, oh, yeah, he's the murderer in Manhunt,
like you know what I mean. Like, so this this
Manhunt episode is just honestly was hiding in the recesses
of my brain and it's fucked up.

Speaker 2 (01:00:18):
And there's so many elements you know, like yeah, road trip, torture,
missing women, carjack.

Speaker 1 (01:00:25):
So many swattings, like literally for swattings.

Speaker 4 (01:00:27):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (01:00:28):
But Munch is like trying to get info out of
this guy and he's trying to play him right, He's like, Wow,
it's just crazy. Everybody just wants to focus on all
your mistakes, like he you know, he's appealing to this
guy's sense of superiority, this guy's sense of perfectionism, like
that he did everything right. And then he's like what mistakes, well,
what mistakes And he's like, I mean, you're caught, bitch,

(01:00:49):
what do you mean? Yeah, And he's like Sarah Kimmel,
like how about her? Like you fully let a girl go,
like one of your victims got away. And he's like
that was Marvin's fault, like he was I had to
go to work and he fucking let her out by
accident or something. But I kept him around because he
served a purpose. He's the one that got me. Ernie
slashed the cabin like, so he confesses to murdering Ernie

(01:01:11):
the cabin owner. He confesses to grabbing the koch LEAs
off the street and then essentially torturing the wife for
a few days and then killing both of them so
that he could use their ID to buy weapons and stuff.
And then Munch just asks him point blank how many
and he's like, we already found eighteen of them, and
the guy scoffs and he's like there's so many more

(01:01:31):
and he's like, well, then, how many And he's like,
I won't tell you. I'm not going to tell you,
and Munch minch and Munch flips out because this guy's
fucking with him, right. He flips out, and he's like,
I've been one step ahead of you, guys since you
found the warehouse. Are you kidding? I thought about you
every time I took another victim, and when they were
screaming for mercy, I had a little laugh at your expense,

(01:01:54):
Like I'm laughing at you right now because you think
you've won. And Munch is like, yeah, lol, I'll be
laughing all the way to the electric chair when they
stick a needle in your arm or whatever. But Kern
knows the law. He goes Canada won't extradite on capital
offenses unless the death penalty is waived. Maybe they didn't
teach you that at the academy, but it's like, still,

(01:02:15):
you're confessing to all these crimes and you're going to
get life in prison, so that's better, I don't know.
Munch is pissed and is asking Cabin about it, and
she's like, yeah, Canada has gotten stricter about that. They
don't want America killing people, so they're not sending extraditing people.
And then she's like, why don't you just let me
do my job? So now ooh la la, we are

(01:02:36):
in Canadian court arguing all about it, and a judge
is like, well, don't you think that Canada's just going
to become a safe haven for absolute psychopaths, murdering freaks
to come. They'll just run over the border and then go,
you can't let me back if they're gonna kill me,
you know. And Cabot's like, yes, listen, I totally understand
your constitutional rules. I understand that you guys have this policy,

(01:02:59):
but it doesn't apply here. We are not extraditing him
for murder. We are extraditing him for the theft of
a vehicle. They are extracting him for stealing the farmer's truck.
And also they could probably extradite him for kidnapping, like
these people, that's not a death penalty crime per se,
but since the value of the car is more than

(01:03:20):
five thousand dollars, this qualifies for extradition under Canadian law.
And I love when Cabot. I love when she finds
a way and she's like, so basically, babe, we're only
petitioning on that stolen property charge. And the Canadian lawyer
is like, give me a fucking break, Like this is bullshit.
They're trying to circumvent our laws and as soon as
they get him over the border, they're going to charge

(01:03:41):
him with capital crimes and who cares, right, And the
lawyer earlier had said something like, I can't speculate as
to what may or may not happen. And so now
the judge goes, well, I can't speculate as to what
may or may not happen, and he grants the extradition
take that psycho so that they bring this guy back

(01:04:01):
to the US, and he walks slowly towards Munch like
gets you know. Finn arrests him for the murders, and
then he gets kissing distance away from Munch, who goes
welcome home, Darryl, and then they take him off and
he thanks Cabot, you know, for figuring this out. And
then in the last scene, Munch goes to the apartment

(01:04:22):
of Sarah Kimmel and he just wants to let her
know that she can turn her lights out tonight. And
that's dick Wolf babe.

Speaker 4 (01:04:30):
He truly is the male Marishka.

Speaker 2 (01:04:33):
I would say in terms of care for victims, he really, like,
this isn't the first. I mean, it might be the
first of season two, but he like goes above and
beyond with these cases, and he really cares about them,
and he makes these he wants people to feel safe
and he goes above and beyond.

Speaker 1 (01:04:49):
Yeah, yeah, I mean he did think that girls that
were being sex trafficked were possibly part of a Mickey
Mouse fan club. Remember, But he also I would say
he has connection. It's like he's very connected to the woman,
the actress Jennifer Esposito's character, Marley Mattlin's character, this woman,
like he.

Speaker 4 (01:05:08):
Has anyone with schizophrenia.

Speaker 1 (01:05:10):
Yes, anyone that reminds him of like a story of
a neighbor girl back home who he never told the
cops that something was going on with her and she
died or whatever. Like he yes, you know, he's got
good connections with who he's got connections with, and that's
and he will, I will. I give him that. That's good,
like cause they give Finn a little bit of that,
but not totally. They give Stabler a little bit of that,

(01:05:31):
but not as much. I think they give the most
to Benson. And the next up is much for sure. Yeah,
right now, I can't wait for you to tell me
about how psychotic these crimes are because I have been
seeing these cases that I'm seeing the first one that
you're gonna cover. I've been seeing these names forever and
I don't know I don't think I know about these
at all.

Speaker 2 (01:05:55):
Okay, So it's about two cases, and one of them
is like eight things are exactly like the episode, like
it's really wild, no, like so many little things too.

Speaker 4 (01:06:07):
And then then the second one is.

Speaker 2 (01:06:11):
Connected because of the gruesomeness and stuff, and I was
trying to maybe split them so it wasn't like back
to back horrors. But no other episodes have these crimes,
so we're gonna have to hear both of them at once.
But okay, so the first one is Leonard Lake and
Charles ng and they're the two most like infamous serial

(01:06:33):
killers of the twentieth century, is what something said.

Speaker 1 (01:06:36):
But it's like, well, we don't know them. Well, why
don't they have little names? Then why aren't they called
the so and so killers? Right?

Speaker 2 (01:06:43):
Yeah, it's like these are the most well in terms
of their crime, they're horrific. But it's like, stop making
these No, we barely know them. I'm sure people listening
do not know these guys. Lake was obsessed with nuclear
holocaust survivalism, so he moved to a cab in an
unincorporated area in the in Calvaries County, which is about

(01:07:04):
seventy miles northeast of Stockton, if like you're in the area,
but it's the Bay Area, right, And this is after
he was given a medical discharge after being diagnosed with
a personality disorder from the military. So Ding Ding ding
SV it's a military guy personality disorder cabin Honestly, you
can make a bingo board of the episode. You would

(01:07:25):
be yeah, you would have the board filled.

Speaker 4 (01:07:27):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:07:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:07:28):
So he's also classic in terms of like killing small animals,
being obsessed with porn, being obsessed with abusive sex. So
he had like all the makings of a bad guy.
And then Charles was born in Hong Kong and he's
a kleptomaniac. That's I don't know why I keep doing earhorns.
This is like sad.

Speaker 1 (01:07:46):
But anyways, he is addicted to stealing, and that goes
into your episode of like why would you go steal?

Speaker 4 (01:07:52):
And he's a coed Yeah, yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:07:54):
He came to the Bay Area under a student visa
to attend Notre Dame de Demir. I don't know, I
can't say Dinimore whatever. It's in Belmont, California. It's a
Catholic college. He was an academic failure and failed out
of school and then he got a fake ID to
join the Marines. But in nineteen eighty he was busted

(01:08:16):
first allegedly but he was stealing weapons from a military
base and he went on the run. And so in
the early nineteen eighties Lake meets up with this Charles guy.
They both had ties to the military, and they became
an unlikely duo of crime.

Speaker 4 (01:08:31):
Oh no, some more military stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:08:33):
So their victims were mostly like acquaintances and people they
met through classified ads. So like Lake's neighbor Lonnie Wayne
Bond and his girlfriend Brenda Sue O'Connor, and their one
year old son, Lonnie Bond Junior all went missing, and
then their friend Robin Scott Stapley went missing. They eventually
found Bond's car on Lake's property. And then two of

(01:08:54):
their victims were teenagers that attended a school where Lake's
former wife worked as an aide. And I was very
annoyed by the New York Times because they wrote about
this going two of the women were girls, and I
had mentioned this previously, but it's like, no, no, no, they're
not women, they're teenagers, right, teenagers, right?

Speaker 4 (01:09:12):
Kids?

Speaker 1 (01:09:12):
Right?

Speaker 4 (01:09:12):
Girls?

Speaker 2 (01:09:14):
Like we talked about this with sex crimsers like underage women,
no their teens, their girls stop like fucking helping molesterers.

Speaker 1 (01:09:23):
New York Times. Two of the women were girls.

Speaker 2 (01:09:28):
It's nuts teenagers and this is the eighties, I guess,
all right. So they killed the men quickly and would
dump the remains in a mass grave by the cabin.
The men were mostly bound, gagged and fatally shot. They
would also kill the babies immediately and any infants like
they killed everyone, but they would keep the women. And
then they would keep the women though for prolonged torture

(01:09:50):
before killing them. And it was a lot of you
can imagine bondage, sadism stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:09:56):
They held their victims in.

Speaker 2 (01:09:57):
A remote one and a half acre seer in Nevada
fence compound about one hundred and fifty miles east of
San Francisco.

Speaker 4 (01:10:04):
There was a bunker.

Speaker 2 (01:10:05):
There were three rooms, two of them behind a hidden doorway,
one hidden locked room with furnit like that was furnished
like a cell with a bed covered with a foam
pad and a plastic bucket and a roll of toilet paper,
so like grim Grim. The building had a secret entrance
with peep holes two way mirrors which the police believe

(01:10:26):
women victims were like unknowingly being videotaped, but the least
of their problems. They videotaped them tormenting the women and
then binding the scared women and using them as sex
slaves before the murder, so they incriminated themselves.

Speaker 4 (01:10:41):
They taped it all.

Speaker 2 (01:10:42):
Yeah, and the jurors this is jumping forward, but jurors
were shown the tapes of one woman pleading in vain
for the men to spare her husband and baby while
ing cut off her shirt and bra with a knife
in front of the camera.

Speaker 4 (01:10:55):
Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (01:10:56):
This is like truly horror movie shit.

Speaker 4 (01:10:59):
Yeah, and this is jumping out as well.

Speaker 2 (01:11:00):
But like his big defense was like Lake made me
do it, And then they showed the video being like,
seems like you were pretty into it.

Speaker 1 (01:11:07):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:11:08):
The videotape equipment belonged to Harvey Dubbs, a San Francisco
freelance video producer who disappeared with his wife, Deborah, and
their sixteenth month old son. So that's another parallel to
the episode. They would like murder, kidnap, take people, and
then take their stuff. So then they used Dub's credit
card to purchase dinner after the family disappeared, and like

(01:11:29):
one of the victims of the tape was Sue O'Connor,
Lake's neighbor girlfriend I mentioned earlier. So like the tapes
helped them identify victims as well in the future because
the remains were hard to identify, and so, like a
lot of them, tape ended up helping figure out who
these people were. They were caught in nineteen eighty five
because of Ing's obsession with stealing. Yeah, so Lake was

(01:11:51):
in the car and Ing stole an item from a
hardware store in South San Francisco. So Ing escaped, but
then they caught up with Lake who was in the car,
and then they found a gun in the car as well,
and like that was registered to one of the missing people.
But once Lake was caught and arrested, he killed himself. Wow,
he swallowed a poison after his arrest on the shoplifting charge.

(01:12:13):
So while in custody, he popped a cyanide pill he
kept hidden and he died. Yeah, so now he's done
from the story. I mean, this is like a stone cold,
fucking psycho. So yeah, he took his own life Cyanide
who knew so Charles, Uh, but Charles did flee and
then also Lake was and then on top of it,

(01:12:36):
Lake was carrying a driver's license of someone named Robin
Stapeley of San Diego, who of course was missing. And
then they were driving a car owned by Paul Coostner
who and carrying the bank cards of a bunch of people.
So everything was from missing people, cars, IDs, credit cards,
any guns, everything was registered and to other people. Investigators

(01:12:57):
on the property then discovered piles of charred bones, forty
five pounds of bones, blood stained tools, shallow graves, and
then a two hundred and fifty page diary kept by
Lake and it detailed his plan. So his plan was
called Operation Miranda, and his fantasy of surviving a nuclear

(01:13:17):
holocaust in a concrete bunker stocked with food, weapons, and
female slaves.

Speaker 4 (01:13:22):
So this this was like kind of his dream for like, then,
why did you kill all the women?

Speaker 2 (01:13:28):
Four law enforcement agencies spent five weeks scouring the property.
They found thousands of buried teeth and bone fragment.

Speaker 1 (01:13:36):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:13:37):
And then at least four of the dental specimens belonged
to children under the age of three. NG was found
about a month later in Alberta, Canada. Again the episode
after again attempting to shoplift at a department store like
truly a klepto, Yeah, and he wounded a store guard.
So he was found not guilty of the attempted murder

(01:13:59):
charge because, as like the judge said, since it was
just a shot in the hand, like you couldn't couldn't
like you couldn't prove that he was trying to kill
the guy, just injure him. But he was found guilty
of robbery and assault and given four and a half years.
So they obviously the US wanted to get an extradition
for him and try him for all these horrific crimes,

(01:14:21):
but he fought the extradition for six years and then
finally the Supreme Court in Canada ordered his return, so
he was finally brought back to the US in nineteen
ninety one, and Cara covered this in episode so like
in nineteen seventy six, an extradition treaty between Canada and
the US was created and that Canada can reject an

(01:14:42):
extradition petition if the US does not guarantee that the
suspect will not face the death penalty, because Canada abolished
the capital punishment in nineteen seventy six, but he still
was I don't know how they finally did it, but
he fought it for six years. He was found guilty
of eleven confirmed but is believe there's like at least
over a dozen more in nineteen ninety nine. He was

(01:15:06):
finally convicted nineteen ninety nine, and I'll get into that,
but of killing six men, three women, two baby boys
and accused of thirteen slayings. He still denied the crime,
and his defense argued that he was under Lake's influence.
But like you taped it and then This was one
of California's longest and most expensive trials at the time,

(01:15:29):
costing millions of dollars, partly because the court said, according
to CBS News, that Ing repeatedly attempted to delay and
disrupt his own trial. I mean this was hundreds of hours,
over ten years and over six hundred witnesses.

Speaker 4 (01:15:45):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:15:45):
Case files filled three rooms, said the deputy Orange County
Public defender William Kelly. The case was tried in the
OC because of like unfair stuff, so he got it moved.
He thought all the media attention wouldn't keep like have
the trial be fair in the Bay Area if you
were alive during this time or living there or live
in the area, Like, let me know if you know

(01:16:05):
about this, Like if this was on the news all
the time, why don't we really know about this crime?
It says, it's so infamous, it's like obviously horrific, so
many different layers, but it's kind of like the episode,
we don't really know about it.

Speaker 1 (01:16:17):
I tried to look up their faces because I wanted
to see what they look like, and like some things
call it the Mirandom murders, but like that doesn't that
didn't catch on, Like I don't think enough people were
talking about the Mirandom murders, no Rod.

Speaker 2 (01:16:30):
But I'm wondering if people like because it got moved
down to the OC, so obviously there's a bunch of
media attention. Yeah, but this is late eighties, this is
throughout the nineties. Other things took over. Like I'm just
curious if anyone has any memories of this, right, let
us know. So the Kelly guy, the defense attorney, the
public defender, said it was like at six million dollars
before the case he even got the case, which would

(01:16:52):
need an additional two years to prepare in a year
to try it. Whoa ing was sentenced to death and
currently being held at the California Medical Facility in Vacaville.
July twenty twenty two, the California Supreme Court upheld the
death penalty for the guy, but Gavin Newsom imposed the
moratorium on the death penalty, so as long as he's

(01:17:13):
in charge, he will not be murdered. And even decades later,
there's still trying to identify some of the remains of
the victims using genealogical DNA. So the bones and other
human remains were kept in a crypt in a cemetery
and hopes that modern DNA tracing could help reveal identities
by using DNA databases. So two people in twenty twenty

(01:17:34):
five alone had been identified. WHOA, So it's still like
a current kind of case. So Reginald aka Reggie Frisbee,
an unknown victim of the men, were able to be
identified through genealogical stuff like through like you know, what
are those called where you spit in the thing and
you send it like twenty three DNA testing. Yeah, and

(01:17:55):
they were finally able to identify O'Connor as well. Apartment
set according to San Francisco Gate sf Gate like a
newspaper thing. This case underscores the power of modern forensic
science and bringing families the closure they deserve even after
decades of uncertainty. So that that was kind of beautiful.
But we weren't really know exact numbers of anything, but

(01:18:18):
like they definitely killed over twenty p like we don't know, yeah,
because who knows how they broke apart all these bodies.

Speaker 4 (01:18:24):
Like it's fucked, It's fine.

Speaker 1 (01:18:25):
I just think the guy should rot in jail forever.
I feel like Newsome is right with the I mean,
you know, I'm not even like a death penalty person,
but it's like you held people in a cage and
that's how you have to live for the rest of
your life. Like I think that's I think, yeah, ugh, horrible.
I can't believe there's another one.

Speaker 4 (01:18:43):
Oh no, this one's even worse, i'd say, if we
have to compare it.

Speaker 1 (01:18:46):
But oh, oh oh god.

Speaker 2 (01:18:49):
And I actually remember because when I performed in Philly,
not this last time, but a couple times ago, someone
was telling me about this crime, and I think I
kicked it out of my head. And so we're back.
It's the Gary heidnick case and Kara, this freak actually
inspired the Buffalo Bill character in Silence of the Lambs One. Okay,

(01:19:09):
I know there's a lot of different things, but a
lot of parallels between this guy and Buffalo Bill.

Speaker 1 (01:19:15):
All right, here we go.

Speaker 2 (01:19:17):
So Gary was a self appointed pastor of a church
so Problems. He created a church called United Church Ministries
of God, and his congregation met in his home and
his worshippers were comprised of mostly mentally challenged people. And
he was known as someone who flashed rolls of money
and like he had a Rolls Royce and a Cadillac

(01:19:39):
and like just all this cash and he would roll
around flashing it, roll the money around the neighborhood to
use and mentally handicapped women. And he would take these
people on trips to the New Jersey amusement parks. So
and he had an IQ of one forty eight. So
he is like upper intelligence and he's hanging out with
a g group of mentally challenged people, which is fine

(01:20:02):
if you're of service, but like what and you would
take these people on trips to the amusement park and
pay for everything.

Speaker 4 (01:20:08):
And he was just kind of known for that.

Speaker 2 (01:20:10):
He made a lot of money as a successful investor
in the stock market, okay, and he was also like
the son of a former city councilman in a Cleveland suburb.
This happened in Philly, but you know Ohio and Pennsylvania touch,
so you know, he came from a councilman. He's really smart,
he makes a ton of money in the market. And
his former wife, one of his former wives, was like

(01:20:32):
a mail order bride from the Philippines, so that's also
like that's like a pretty much.

Speaker 4 (01:20:36):
Red flag of like you're mail ordering rides.

Speaker 2 (01:20:38):
And while and a lot of people about this guy
said he was patient, kind, chatty, but anyone that really
knew him said the opposite. Like his wife said that
he was short tempered, often beat and tortured her. She
went to authorities after a few months of being in
the country with him, said that he raped her. He
was charged with a bunch of charges, but the woman
never came to the hearing and she led the fuck

(01:21:00):
out of there. She used aid from a Filipino community,
like Philadelphia's Filipino community helped her and she went into
hiding and fled, which, you know, whatever she needed to do. Obviously,
it'd be nice if he was in jail for these crimes.

Speaker 4 (01:21:17):
I don't know why they needed a witness.

Speaker 2 (01:21:18):
This is very SVU and annoying, but everything had to
be dropped because of it. Now, all of the victims
of this case of him, outside of like domestic abuse
that he did with this wife and he had a
few other wives, his victims were all black women, So
I think that also kind of affected how poorly the

(01:21:43):
police acted reacted. Yeah, but all the victims were black women,
and he believed that races needed to mix to create
a perfect race. And his plan was to enslave ten
black girls and have babies with them. What the fuck.
So he lured these into his homes with promise of
money in exchange for sex, and then he would overpower

(01:22:05):
them and then chain them in a pit in the basement.
So he lured sex workers and mentally disabled women into
his North Philly home, and Philly is nicknamed this place
the House of Horrors, and this dungeon like basement it was,
you know, the walls were covered in one and five
dollar bills, there were two mattresses in a portable toilet.

(01:22:26):
So he kidnapped six women in total, and two were
killed and four did end up being saved.

Speaker 4 (01:22:33):
In the end.

Speaker 2 (01:22:34):
So the four that survived were Josephina Rivera, Lisa Thomas, Jacquelinaskins,
and Agnes Adams. And then two were killed, Sandra Lindsay
and Deborah Dudley ended up not surviving this House of Horrors,
Sandra Lindsay from starvation, torture, combo, and then Deborah was

(01:22:55):
electrocuted and then buried in a New Jersey pot like woods.

Speaker 4 (01:23:00):
Oh my god. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:23:02):
So Josephina was a mother of three and struggled with
drug addiction and was working as a sex worker, and
that's how he got her into the home. Sandra Lindsay
had who had developmental disabilities, attended his church services. Lindsay
was disabled, says her sister to CNN, and he prayed
on her vulnerability and desire to be accepted, and she

(01:23:24):
would tell her sister about like, oh, I go into
an amusement park, it's all young people. He bought us McDonald's,
like she really trusted him to her. He was a hero, okay,
and then her sister That's what her sister, Tracy has
said to his CNN that like hero. In nineteen eighty six,
the day after Thanksgiving, Lindsay went to the store to

(01:23:45):
buy some pain meds and never returned. Her family called
him and he hung up, and they kept calling and
he would keep hanging up. So they started arriving at
his house and he would deny them entry, So then
they went to the police, and then the police did
question him. So then afterwards suddenly a card from Lindsay
arrived after christmassing. She was fine, and they knew it

(01:24:05):
wasn't her, and so they kept begging detectives like can
you please go in there, and we know it's him,
and they're like, nope, we can't. So then the mother,
Janet Perkins, files a police report with the police about
her daughter missing, and the police ignored it and said,
we can't really do anything.

Speaker 4 (01:24:20):
Your daughter's an adult. Get over it.

Speaker 2 (01:24:22):
Then the Elwyn Institutes of National Rehabilitation Center that a
lot of the that's where he found that's where he
would pray on people. It's like a center for the disabled.
And they kept calling the authorities saying that Heidnik was
harassing their clients. So you have multiple family members, you have,
you have this institute saying he is praying on our clients.

(01:24:45):
The police refused to do anything about it. Then neighbors
said they'd complained to the police about noise and smell
of burning flesh, which the cops say they deny that
anyone ever said anything. The neighbors said they were constantly calling, complaining,
and the cops said, we don't have probable cause.

Speaker 4 (01:25:02):
We can't just enter a home.

Speaker 1 (01:25:04):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:25:06):
So Jackie Askins, a survivor, did an interview to mark
the thirty years since Gary was captured to ABC Local
six news, and she said he stripped her naked like,
took her wig off, everything, led her down, handcuffed her
naked to the basement, and then she saw four other
prisoners there, all of them chained up. Two were on
the bed, one by the pool table, and one was

(01:25:27):
standing by the window. So the women would come on
their own, like I said, to have consensual sex with
him or whatever was going on. But because of their
diminish mental capacity, I don't really know how consensual it is.
And I'm really annoyed that that's the research we do,
how people frame stuff. But from the Supreme Court report

(01:25:47):
that during the sex he would choke them out, then
while unconscious, he would chain them, and the survivor said
it was daily rapes and beatings, tortured them. He would
tell them I have a lot of kids because the
state kept taking his kids away from him. This is
according to the Oxygen Network. But like, yeah he had children,

(01:26:08):
he did. Yeah, like he had ex wives. He had children,
and they kept being taken away from him, and no
one wanted to be around this motherfucker like a true psychopath. Yeah,
he had kids taken away all the time. So he
I mean, I'm gonna go into the details, and it's grim.
It is what it is. So he wrapped tape around
their mouths and would drive a screwdriver into their ears

(01:26:29):
and would turn it.

Speaker 4 (01:26:31):
Oh my god, yes to ABC News.

Speaker 2 (01:26:33):
And then he created this pit and he filled it
with water, and then he would electrically like shock the women.

Speaker 4 (01:26:38):
And then he would the dead bodies.

Speaker 2 (01:26:40):
He would dismember the victims and then store the limbs
and containers labeled dog food and then fed the women
dog food or dog food mixed in with like the
other human remains.

Speaker 4 (01:26:50):
My god, oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:26:54):
And Askins said that she remembers dismembering one of her
fellow victims that like Linds, each while hanging for days
with her arms shackled to a ceiling pipe, and that
her body had to be cut up and like with
a power saw, and was stored in the fridge, and
he made her dismember the body and then he boiled
her head in a large pot on the stove. Oh
my god, Like minute, I can't there's no words, honestly,

(01:27:18):
like no words aren't enough for the evil.

Speaker 4 (01:27:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:27:21):
So Johnson was put in the pit and electrocuted, and
then he dumped her body in the forest. And then
when he would leave the house, he would leave one
of the women in charge, and when he would come back,
he would ask how the others behaved, and if she
said bad, they would get beaten, but if she said good,
she would get beaten.

Speaker 1 (01:27:37):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:27:39):
So finally Philly police arrested this motherfucker in nineteen eighty seven,
and you're wondering, Wow, how did they solve the crime?
They didn't. One of the women fucking escaped, thank god. Yeah,
So Josephina Rivera, she gained the trust of this guy
and convinced him to let her leave the house briefly
to like meet up with her family. So he drove
her to like make a phone call at like a

(01:28:00):
payphone to talk to her family, and she fled called
the cops. He he also thought he had something on
her though that's like where the trust came from or
like what he had over her. But basically he made
her sign a note saying that she helped kill Deborah Dudley,
so that it was incriminating to her, and he said, like,
you're not gonna so then he stopped handcuffing her, and like,

(01:28:24):
you know, all of.

Speaker 1 (01:28:25):
This guy has one hundred and forty whatever IQ he
thinks that that's going to fucking hold up anywhere.

Speaker 2 (01:28:30):
Yeah, So basically, like because she helped him and sign
this paper, he like started being like more chill, and
so yeah, he wasn't handcuffing her. And then March twenty fourth,
nineteen eighty seven, Phillipe d received a call from a
woman who said she'd been held captive for the last
four months. The cops arrived to the payphone she used,
and this is in the Supreme Court case files quoted

(01:28:53):
by Justia Justia. It said she was visibly shaking and
gave cops the scoop and then they held that's these
are my words. They helped calm her down and she
told them that Gary was waiting for her to return
in a car park nearby, and he thought that she

(01:29:13):
was just visiting family.

Speaker 3 (01:29:15):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:29:15):
So when they approached him, he said, what's this all about, Officer,
didn't I pay my child's support?

Speaker 1 (01:29:21):
And then that's the Supreme Court files in justia.

Speaker 2 (01:29:24):
And then when the women were finally freed, a next
door neighbor, Dorothy Zubulka, is quoted in The Times saying
that three of them came running out of the house yelling, horray,
we're free, We're out, and missus. Zubulka was actually one
of the neighbors that told police several times about how
it smelled like burning flesh and that she heard electrical
saws and hammering in the middle of the night. Warren Henceman,
another neighbor, said he complained about foul odors and that

(01:29:47):
the officer who responded to call to the call dismissed
his concern and said, yeah, Okay, it's a burned roast.

Speaker 4 (01:29:53):
Don't worry guy.

Speaker 1 (01:29:55):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:29:56):
The New York Times ago, it's probably a roast. I
also would like to mention that in nineteen seventy eight
he was arrested and convicted he kidnapped his ex's sister,
Alberta Davidson, who had an intellectual disability, and then she
was kidnapped from the institution she lived in, and he
allegedly raped her and kept her imprisoned in a basement

(01:30:17):
storage room.

Speaker 1 (01:30:18):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:30:20):
And what and he would and they wanted a convict
him of more crimes, but they couldn't because Alberta was
deemed mentally.

Speaker 4 (01:30:28):
Unfit to take the stand.

Speaker 1 (01:30:30):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:30:31):
So then he was in prisoned for four years and
four months and he was silent the whole time. And
then he was paroled in nineteen eighty three.

Speaker 1 (01:30:39):
Paroled. Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:30:41):
So not only was an institute complaining about him, a
mother complaining about him, neighbors complaining about him. He has
a record, So he has a record of holding women
hostage and torturing them. Was arrested, and still no one
in fucking Philadelphia PD would investigate. And you know it's
because these are black women.

Speaker 1 (01:31:02):
Yeah, like and and it's like the whole thing about
like letting her go, like uh be with her family
a little bit. To me, it's like this, it's like
the Colleen standcase. It's like these guys want to feel
like I have so like so much control over these

(01:31:22):
women that they would never go and escape and tell
anybody about me or whatever, like I have the control.
It's like they think that these women are dogs and
they can walk their dogs off the leash. Well yeah,
especially if like you created your own church. Yes, you
need to be the man in charge and controlling people.

Speaker 2 (01:31:39):
And then police found twenty seven pounds of body parts
inside his face. Oh my god, they found a dismembered
head and a stock pot of water.

Speaker 4 (01:31:47):
I told you, like, I'm like, yeah, that's.

Speaker 1 (01:31:49):
Very buffalo bill. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:31:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:31:51):
And then you know, they found the women chained up
with the pits the to where it's bad. And then
so his defense attorney, Charles Peruto Junior, in an interview
with A and E, said Gary's attitude towards the whole
thing was that he hadn't even committed a crime and
had a perfectly logical excuse and calm demeanor for all
the evil things he did. He never had any remorse
for anything. Prudo Junior did try to make him seem

(01:32:13):
more insane, like was helping him out because he did
not meet the legal threshold of insanity, but he reached
the clinical and he had this IQ but basically, like
his fucking lawyer told him, don't bathe don't trim your
beard and let your mustache grow into your mouth, like
helping him look more crazy. Yeah, and the judge knew
it was bullshit and did not fall for it. Lynn Abraham,

(01:32:34):
you're a real one. Who eventually became a Philly da
in nineteen ninety one, she realized he was faking it.
And Miss Rivera, the one who escaped, She said that
he would always say like, even if I'm arrested and
we go to court, I'm going to act crazy. I'm
going to salute the judge and I don't even care.
I'll act crazy for years and they'll throw this case out.

Speaker 4 (01:32:54):
And that's according to the Supreme Court docs.

Speaker 2 (01:32:57):
And then the defense had three psychologists say that he
didn't know the difference between right or wrong because of
his schizophrenia, and that he thought God was asking him
to do this. But they had a bunch of witnesses
who were like, Nope, that's not working. He had a
stockbroker who was like, no, he was pretty sane and
normal and would tell me what to do with his funds.

Speaker 4 (01:33:16):
All the time. Was able to work with me.

Speaker 2 (01:33:19):
An old social worker testified that in the fall of
nineteen eighty six, she deemed him clean, safe, calm, rational,
smart while escorting his ex wife out of a hospital
because she needed a help. So she he was like
sane enough to help his wife out of the hospital.
An acquaintance claiming he had been consistently the same for
eight years. A court reporter who was involved in like

(01:33:41):
family court proceedings also said he was a car salesman.
A psychiatrist from his veteran's office, court psychologist too all
put him in the A court psychologist actually said that
he was in the top half percent of one percent
of people smart wise. Wow, but like you said, why
would you think that?

Speaker 1 (01:33:59):
Like paper, yeah, like a little contract, Yeah yeah. He
also tried to hang himself in jail by using a
T shirt from a shower pipe, and he was found
by a CEO. He was eventually convicted of two counts
of murder, six counts of kidnapping, five counts of rape,
and various other charges. He was sentenced to death on
March second in nineteen eighty nine. And we are against

(01:34:20):
the death penalty, but I guess not here because I'm
pretty thrilled that he was killed by lethal injection in
nineteen ninety nine. He did not appeal his conviction once
and did not fight the death penalty, which his attorney
says points to him being like clinically insane, but I don't.

Speaker 4 (01:34:37):
Care, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:34:39):
His last meal was black coffee and two slices of
cheese pizza. Maybe you are insane wildly. His estrange daughter,
Maxine Davidson White, did appeal and try to save him
from execution, but.

Speaker 4 (01:34:52):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:34:53):
Askins attended the execution, as did Lindsay's family and the
Dudley's family, and they said they were all dissatisfied and
not get the relief that they thought they wanted. That like,
he didn't look at them, but it was like they yeah, yeah.
And Rivera said that she wanted him to sit in
a cell and not get the death penalty. So he
was actually the last person executed in Pennsylvania.

Speaker 4 (01:35:14):
The victims so.

Speaker 2 (01:35:15):
Fucked up received a thirty thousand dollars settlement. Oh my god,
what Yeah, you guys did not investigate for years as
people were complaining, and.

Speaker 1 (01:35:26):
You got him thirty k. You gave him thirty k. Crazy.
That's fucking crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:35:33):
Thomas and Adams were never really able to recover from
the experience. Obviously they deal with mental health and addiction issues.
And this is from twenty twenty one update from Oxygen.
Rivera told the Philly Inchoir she returned to sex work
after the trial, but she did give it up.

Speaker 4 (01:35:49):
She gave up drugs.

Speaker 2 (01:35:50):
She's been working random jobs for a while and was
able to reunite with her children. She lives in Atlantic
City with her husband. She loves taking walks on the beach,
but she's in She still has panic attacks if she
sees chains or handcuffs anywhere.

Speaker 4 (01:36:04):
She has to turn the TV off. And that sounds familiar.

Speaker 2 (01:36:07):
I feel like that's like something else we've covered where
it might be Colleen stan actually like that triggers her.
It might I think it was, But that's what I mean.
Like these women should never have to work again, Like
they should have all been given like at least a
few hundred thousand dollars.

Speaker 4 (01:36:23):
Like I don't understand.

Speaker 2 (01:36:25):
I don't understand how like these women get out there's
no victim services, Like, yeah, she still had to do
sex work.

Speaker 4 (01:36:32):
Like she didn't. I can't. I can't understand awful.

Speaker 2 (01:36:39):
And then the surviving women actually wanted to press charges
against Rivera. Why because they said that like she would
help them even though she saved them and like was
trying to survive. They feel like she did things that
she shouldn't have. But oh, those charges were dropped but
like that never went anywhere.

Speaker 3 (01:36:59):
But but.

Speaker 2 (01:37:01):
I understand where they're coming from. And like maybe she
was like favored and did or and did do more
fucked up stuff, but that's what gave.

Speaker 1 (01:37:08):
Her the ability to get out and get them out.
They could all be dead, but that's I could see. Yeah,
Askins still lives in Philly. She cleans houses, she's close
with her sons. She's on meds to deal with her
anxiety and trauma, and that's according to a Huffington Post
article in twenty fourteen. But she has intense flashbacks and
she cannot enter basements, which makes sense. Ye, Askins and

(01:37:33):
Rivera did eventually have a sit down. And if you
want to see this, it's call it's a show called
Monster Preacher on Oxygen if you want to see this
sit down. And I want to say, like I didn't
include it on purpose, but like like Charles and this
dude like they were both beat by their family, both
like insane parents, like not really like a great childhood.

(01:37:57):
But I'm really sick about hearing about that because women
are abused all the time and it doesn't seem like
they're committing as many crimes. And I think about school
shootings in the same way we excuse it by like
they're bullied. They're bullied, they're ostracized, and it's like, so
are black kids. I don't know, so are women, so
are trans kids, and like for some reason, it's always
these dudes. It's we always, oh, they're abused, but like

(01:38:22):
so are not men.

Speaker 4 (01:38:24):
Yeah, women are abused.

Speaker 2 (01:38:25):
Women go through incests and who knows if they're doing
other weird shit and manifestations. But it does seem like
most women that are abused like this that goes inward
and it's like eating disorders and cutting and like all
of these things, and so like I'm just sick of
it being used and even the discussion of like, well,
you know, a cycle of abuse, and it's.

Speaker 1 (01:38:45):
Like, but it's not for women, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:38:49):
And I'm sure there's women beating their kids like I
and not being and repeating it in certain ways it's
just like I'm kind of sick of it at being
a reason. Yeah, because Charles's father went to CORE to
testify any Cry and was like, I shouldn't have hit
my kid. I fucked up. I fucked up. Really, yeah,

(01:39:12):
I guess I did the wrong thing. He's like, you know,
my wife begged me to stop, but I thought I
was doing the right thing. And so it's like, I
get that these people are being beat, but there needs
to be research on why men are more outward with
this abuse and women are inward because I don't care anymore.
I don't care if these abusers are abused. I don't
care anymore. Yeah, it's like tough, I don't know. Lots

(01:39:33):
of people were hit and they didn't put screwdrivers in women.
I put them in the pits and electrocute them. Why
are you writing?

Speaker 1 (01:39:40):
I mean this is like we talk about the cycle
of abuse all the time, and like I do believe
it's a thing, but this is like, but this is
like fucking the most depraved shit I've ever heard.

Speaker 2 (01:39:50):
So and for all these guys, all these guys, all
the research I did, multiple articles, kept being like their
parents were insane. They got hit and It's like what
this is like burying baby's teeth and acreage?

Speaker 1 (01:40:03):
What are we like?

Speaker 2 (01:40:04):
I don't under I don't know. I'm like I'm just
kind of over it. I'm overhearing about how sad these
bullied and abused boys are. Like I don't know. Yeah,
and fuck the Philly police. Fuck that's I mean, so fucked. Oh,
I'm like shivering. This was like so gross. It's probably

(01:40:27):
the most horrific, and like that's why I get why
they're like these are the most infamous crimes and like
really bad. But I don't know, I just want like research.
Maybe I'll talk to my niece about this. She's doing
some forensic psych I don't know. I'm like a noise
get her on the pod.

Speaker 1 (01:40:42):
Well, we don't have a guest for today's episode, so
we can go right into the post mortem. Well this
is terrible.

Speaker 2 (01:40:57):
Yeah, any episode in SVU that is man up, man down,
manhunt mand it's not gonna be good if.

Speaker 1 (01:41:04):
There's a Sorry, we didn't even have a guest to
cleanse the palette for this one. We're just going straight
from horrific, horrific crimes to our post mortem, where I mean,
oh god, I'm like, I think.

Speaker 2 (01:41:19):
The darkness that exists in people and how the authorities
and the powers that be allow it.

Speaker 4 (01:41:27):
Yeah, I think that's what stuff listen.

Speaker 2 (01:41:29):
Am I embarrassed that I got into some Instagram debates
recently about the man versus Bear? Yes, but I would
like to say, now, this is our episode two thirty nine. Okay,
how many of our episodes was it a woman perportrator?

Speaker 1 (01:41:45):
Under ten? I would say probably five mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (01:41:51):
I just don't get matter, like you're a logical A
bear's all bad. It's just some men, And I'm like,
I don't, like, you must be just fucking with us,
Like I don't know how you hear about the Giselle
Pellow cook case and are like that's it, Like, yeah,
what more is there to argue when you have the
whole ti How do you say it's some men when
it was the whole town.

Speaker 1 (01:42:11):
It's not all men, but it's only men, like it's
never a woman. That's Like, I wonder what it would
be like to just like torture a person and keep
them in a fucking tiny little box under my bed
and like you know, do all this shit and feed
them their own poop or whatever, like it's never a
woman that's like, let's do that, you know, or.

Speaker 2 (01:42:28):
They're just getting away with it more like I don't know,
but it just I just like I don't get. But
I also don't get why dudes have been so obsessed
with like wanting to be alone in the woods. And
then one guy was like, I don't understand how the
woods makes it any more or less dangerous, Like just no,
I don't know. I have to stop wasting my time.
But I was just curious. I'm like, all the crimes

(01:42:50):
that we like cover rarely a woman. I'm thinking, you know,
the moms that let their like children die in New York,
like in cages and stuff like that.

Speaker 4 (01:43:04):
I'm thinking of those women.

Speaker 1 (01:43:05):
Kameelian Woman is based on Eileen Warno's but still she
was you know, it seems like she was mostly acting
in self defense.

Speaker 4 (01:43:12):
There were some couples. There's couples.

Speaker 2 (01:43:15):
Yeah, there was the woman that set up the double catfish,
but that wasn't even you know.

Speaker 1 (01:43:21):
There was Casey Novak and her friends doing what they
want with the male d We even cover it. We
didn't even cover it. Yeah, we've done that one we did. Yeah. Yeah,
Amelia Chase episode good. Okay, no, there's so many, but yeah,
it's under ten for sure, and like it's and you
know it's it is just it's a wild statistic that

(01:43:43):
they keep fighting against. But but then.

Speaker 2 (01:43:45):
Saying how they're logical, Like that's what's annoying too. It's
like all not being able to see things outside their
outside their perspectives. And it's also I'm an idiot for
fighting online, and they're probably idiots for also doing the
same thing. So I don't know who I'm talking to,
but it is this thing of like why wouldn't it
be logical if you know men are dangerous, wouldn't it
be logical to watch your fucking back?

Speaker 4 (01:44:06):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:44:07):
Also, though every man can really only speak for himself,
like every man can only say I would never do that.
You know, you can only go I'm a good guy whatever.
But when guys like start to speak for their friends
or like none of my friends would do that, it's
like you don't fucking know that. I mean, like, I know,
Promising Young Woman is like a movie, but like you

(01:44:28):
know bo Burnham's characters the Night is a nice guy,
you know, like probably none of his friends ever thought
that you know, the.

Speaker 2 (01:44:34):
Whole thing with the Pellicoat case to where it's like
there are people that showed up and didn't participate, or
they saw the messages on the message board and didn't
go but knew it was happening and still didn't alert
any authorities. So it's like, what is a good person
watching a rape is considered good and not helping?

Speaker 4 (01:44:52):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:44:53):
And then one guy was like talking about polar bears
and surviving polar bear or something, and I go, well,
now I know you're a fucking idiot. I'm like, if
a polar bear finds you, you're done. Yeah, Like I
know the bear laws? Why good night, right, that's the bear.

Speaker 1 (01:45:06):
The bear laws.

Speaker 2 (01:45:08):
No, But it's like, yeah, I don't want to be
mulled by a bear for sure, but I feel like
maybe if I stand still or look down or like
you know, it might sniff me and leave.

Speaker 4 (01:45:16):
Like wild Boys.

Speaker 2 (01:45:17):
Steve O had honey and marshmallows on his nipples and
a but and a bear came and ate all that
and licked him and did one chomp. But like Steve
O is fine, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (01:45:28):
Yeah, So I just I don't want I don't think
I can take a bear, that's not the thing. But
you're gonna take your chances with the bear because.

Speaker 2 (01:45:37):
If you ignore a guy, then it's like, why didn't
you say hi to me? And then it's like and
then people would be like, well, why were you alone
in the woods, And that's what's annoying too. Yeah, but
bear mace works on both men and bears, So it's like,
who do you want a bear mace?

Speaker 4 (01:45:55):
More so if I have bear Mason, I'm ready.

Speaker 2 (01:45:59):
I don't know, I don't know what bears like revenge,
but I think I'd rather be mauled by a bear.
I think I'm like if the this is the because
I'd rather be mauled by a bear than hunting ground,
be kept in a cabin and be sent out in
the woods and darted and like sexually, yeah, like I
don't want to be Colleen Stand. I would rather be

(01:46:20):
eaten by a bear than Colleen Stand. And I'd rather
take my chance as being mauled by a bear. Yeah yeah,
And that's and that's your right and that's my right.
And that proves another point where it's like, oh, you
don't accept a woman's answers, got it?

Speaker 1 (01:46:35):
You guys are stupid. Let me explain to you why
you're wrong about how you feel about your own safety.

Speaker 2 (01:46:40):
Such a fun and then I kept being like, but
this is the game. Would you rather have no elbows
or no knees?

Speaker 1 (01:46:44):
It's like we yeah, you don't want either, but like,
this is the game.

Speaker 4 (01:46:49):
Why are you all desperate? I don't know it so frustrating.

Speaker 1 (01:46:52):
No hellbos are no knees.

Speaker 2 (01:46:53):
Jesus, all right, well wait, I also have a brad
I forgot someone gifted me a la boo boo.

Speaker 1 (01:47:01):
Uh I got one for Rosie? Did I tell you no?

Speaker 2 (01:47:04):
But you know how I was like, I don't even
want one, and then the moment it came into my arms,
I went, this is the greatest stay of of.

Speaker 1 (01:47:10):
Course, I knew you would want a lak boo boo
the minute, like just the whole thing about them. Like
so I was like, so, Rosie's been asking me forever
to get her one, and I was like, I'm not,
I'm not, But I did go on PopMart I created account.
I said, notify me when they come on sale. Whenever
they go on sale, they're gone in three seconds, like
you know, the whole drill. And then in the mom group.
Somebody just goes, oh, this place in uh, this place,

(01:47:30):
this store Japanese like toy store has one, and I
went and they just had a ton of them, and
I was like, great, give me one of those. And
they were like marked up like twice what they are
on the internet, but still not crazy, like I think
I spent sixty bucks. It was her end of the
year kindergarten graduation gift and she was gagged when she
got it. I mean she was so excited. She got
the little sea salt coconut. It's like a little like

(01:47:53):
light gray light bluey kind of color. Yeah, and she
loves it so much. Which one did you get? Why
didn't open my box yet? I want to tape it.

Speaker 2 (01:48:03):
So I brought it home and now I've been home
for like a day and a half.

Speaker 4 (01:48:06):
And so I'm gonna open it.

Speaker 1 (01:48:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:48:09):
I want to create content. I gotta make vide Yeah, no,
I'm because I also in Atlanta, this cute girl. So
the store is called Sister and Roswell and it's like
really fun stuff and I want to make a video
with all the things they gave me. Like some our
listeners just know us like a sticky note that looks
like Ravioli.

Speaker 4 (01:48:29):
Yeah, I mean I can't.

Speaker 1 (01:48:31):
I can't even I can't. Just it's like so fucking
cute when you post your unboxing vie and then.

Speaker 2 (01:48:37):
My sard my sardine fucking candle. This is the third one.
I'm like, so easy to shop for. People will not
stop getting me the streaming candles. And if you're Marishka's pr,
we have a word with you. How dare she do
call her dad? How dam how dare I?

Speaker 1 (01:48:53):
Just like, I look, I respect everybody's everybody is like,
you know, I'm not I'm not saying I don't like
that podcaster because I don't know her very well, but like,
what is the like secret thing about her that everybody's
so obsessed with? Like is she so good of an interviewer?
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:49:10):
Jane Fonda said she was a great interviewer. I have
no idea. I mean, she is very hot. I don't
I was not a part of the journey and that
I didn't have Spotify, so I've never like able to
get to it. Even though she has such good guests
and I want them, and she's built an empire.

Speaker 1 (01:49:26):
I mean, listen to get a hill. It's such a
smart business woman. But like I've seen some clips of interviews,
and I guess it's like she asks people she wears sweatpants,
what's your favorite sex position? And people like that because
that's not always what you get in an interview. But
that's also it's understood she's gonna ask questions like that,
you know what I mean. So it's not the same
as like if like Fallon asks you what your favorite sex?

Speaker 4 (01:49:49):
Yeah. She I think she disarms people.

Speaker 2 (01:49:51):
Maybe it's like Howard Stern vibes or she's able to
like get people to spill and be vulnerable about things.
And then I read an interview with her and like
if a celebrity says certain things are off limits, they
just won't have them on. Yeah, so you know you
have to be like down, And I think it's like
comfortable and she's in I.

Speaker 1 (01:50:12):
Will say, I will say I was thinking about it,
and I think that, like I think she's gonna go
on call her daddy and talk a lot more about
like her life and like let's go like her mom
and the doc and everything, and that if she was
to come on our pod, it would be more SVU centric.
So I do think we would get conversation out of
her that would be different. Yeah, yeah, let me go
to AMDB pro.

Speaker 4 (01:50:33):
Who the fuck do we need to talk to where
we could help people?

Speaker 1 (01:50:39):
Okay, quick postmortem though of this episode. I do think
we need to be a little bit more paying attention
to the kids that are torturing and killing animals. I mean,
like every single serial killer we've been talking about lately,
it's like killing animals young, killing animals young, Like, let's
get them immediately into an intensive treatment program.

Speaker 2 (01:50:57):
Yeah, Michelle Obama, you know you you raise your daughters
and love your boys. That's what she said, and you
need to start raising your boys. Yeah, start raising your boys. Yeah,
stop excusing this crazy behavior and not expecting them to
do anything while your eldest daughters are out there like
hanging clothes on the clothesline.

Speaker 1 (01:51:17):
Not happening with me, baby, It ends with me. But anyway,
obviously horrific episode. Don't partner up with a psychopath. He's
probably gonna kill you. I don't know any other takeaways
before we hop into our what would sister peg and.

Speaker 2 (01:51:33):
I think we learned this with the Long Island Killer too,
the Go Go Beach or whatnot. But it's like, I
don't know, if you think your loved one is missing
and dead, you really got to fight the cops.

Speaker 4 (01:51:45):
It's the only way. Maybe you have to push.

Speaker 2 (01:51:47):
You have to push, You have to push, you have
to bother them because they don't want to do work,
they don't want to look into you, and if they
don't value you because you X, Y and Z whatever
whatever the bias they have, Like it's because of people's
loved ones bothering and bothering and bothering and then this
woman escaping, like they don't even that's they don't even
do police work. Like how often also on this podcast

(01:52:10):
where we're like and a tip came in, this person
confessed or like they ended up this or this person escaped,
Like it's like they don't even do police work. It's yeah,
except like the one that's based on the Robin Williams,
like that guy he really cared but then but the
but the guy went free, Yeah, because they couldn't charge you.

Speaker 4 (01:52:30):
I mean, it's just like it's frustrating.

Speaker 2 (01:52:31):
You know my advice, listen to our podcast, but don't
pay attention to the worlds and you're life. We'll be
better honestly, that would be my number one thing for
mental health.

Speaker 4 (01:52:40):
Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (01:52:41):
I yeah, I have like not been able to really
look at my phone lately. That's probably why I did
not see Crypto Murder House.

Speaker 2 (01:52:48):
Yeah, but someone said that the pot has gotten too
much for them, but they listened to the intros.

Speaker 1 (01:52:52):
I go, great, get your joy, Get your joy, babes,
get it, get it all right, let's go to what
would mister Peg Do? This is our weekly segment where
we direct you to a book, an article, an organization,
a doc something to give you more info about what
we talked about in today's episode. And this week for WWSPD,

(01:53:13):
we wanted to point you to the Oxygen documentary series
that Lisa mentioned I think a few times in her research.
It's called Manifesto of a Serial Killer. It's a three
part series that does a full investigation into Leonard Lake
and Charles ng And unfortunately I couldn't find it actually
on Oxygen, like there were only previews for it, but

(01:53:33):
it's on Peacock. So for anybody who wants to learn
more about this truly disturbing case, you can head over
to Peacock. I believe it also might be on Apple,
But we are linking to Peacock in our show notes
and we will link to it in our stories and
those get saved in our WWSPD highlights on our Instagram page,
which is that s Messed Up Pod. Come on over there.
It's a great way to follow us, talk to us,

(01:53:57):
ask us to do certain episodes whatever you know.

Speaker 2 (01:54:01):
Hell yes, and next week we will be doing liberties.
Kind of sounds more fun than what the episode's gonna be.

Speaker 1 (01:54:08):
But the lemu Emu will not be there.

Speaker 4 (01:54:13):
Wait, what is that?

Speaker 1 (01:54:14):
Liberty? Mutual limu EMU unpaid ad, unpaid ad, Season ten,
episode twenty one. Thanks for all your support listening. I
love meeting you guys in person. It's really a it's
really a joy and a pleasure.

Speaker 4 (01:54:30):
So thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:54:31):
See you next week. Bye bye.

Speaker 2 (01:54:40):
That's Messed Up as an exactly right production.

Speaker 1 (01:54:43):
If you have compliments you'd like to give us, or
episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email
at That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com. Listen to
That's Messed Up on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 2 (01:54:55):
Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod.
And follow us personally at Kara Klank and at Glitter Cheese.

Speaker 1 (01:55:03):
As always, please see our show notes for sources and
more information.

Speaker 2 (01:55:07):
Thank you so much to our senior producer Casey O'Brien
and our associate producer Christina Chamberlain, and.

Speaker 1 (01:55:13):
To our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cottner,
and to Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly
Geen Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive
producers Georgia Hardstart, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer, and everybody at
Exactly Right Media. Dun Dun

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Kara Klenk

Liza Treyger

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