Nocturne w/ Wilson Jermaine Heredia

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Of the Law and Order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.
We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
These are our stories done done.

Speaker 1 (00:28):
Yay, that's messed up an SVU podcast. I'm Liza Traeger.

Speaker 3 (00:33):
And I'm Kara Klank and every week on this podcast
it's sv episodes, true crimes and guests. But first we
just like to chit chat for a little bit, catch up,
and eventually get to a place where we talk about
how sad the world is.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
But I don't try not to. We try not to.
Yeah it was hard.

Speaker 3 (00:54):
Yeah, okay, Wait, So one thing I was going to
tell you about was we've been talking about AI obviously
a lot on this podcast. So today we're like, I'm
driving my kids to camp and we see this car
and it's not a WAYM, but it's a car that
has like big cameras and shit on top of it,
like a way Mo, but there's a guy driving it.

Speaker 4 (01:13):
So I'm like explaining Waymos to my kids.

Speaker 3 (01:15):
I'm like, okay, so it's like a it's a car
that drives itself and it has all these cameras you
can't so that it knows if someone's gonna hate you
blah blah blah.

Speaker 4 (01:22):
And then they're like.

Speaker 3 (01:24):
Well, I would not want to go on a waymo
of an airplane and I was like, yes, no, I
hope we are nowhere near WEIMO airplanes.

Speaker 4 (01:30):
I really do.

Speaker 3 (01:31):
And I was just like explaining, it's like a robot
that can do this and that, and then somehow I
get into telling them about AI and what it is.
I'm basically like, it's robots that learn how to do
things that humans can do. So it's really important that
you guys get jobs that are creative and rely on
your brains and things that only humans can do.

Speaker 4 (01:51):
And they were like, uh, we lost they lost the thread.

Speaker 1 (01:54):
But because that's not it, people are saying people should
do trades because no one cares about creativity. They just
want shows that you could scroll your phone while you watch.

Speaker 4 (02:05):
You're right, I'm fucking them up. I was just telling them.

Speaker 3 (02:07):
I was like, you got to do something where you
can be with people, and that it has to be
in person. And like Rosie was like, well, a robot
can't be a park ranger, but I was like I can't.
But we're getting rid of the park in this administration,
but not when she's older, you know. So she's like,
now she wants to be a park ranger. And I
was telling her she'd be a great park ranger.

Speaker 4 (02:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:26):
Yeah, So she wants to be a pet park ranger
because she just she wants to get a lot of pets.
But her little Bessie from preschool, who you've heard of,
who moved to New Jersey last year, came this weekend for.

Speaker 1 (02:39):
A surprise visit, and I took a.

Speaker 4 (02:41):
Video and stuff of them, of them seeing each other
for the first time. It was crazy.

Speaker 3 (02:45):
I thought they were going to scream. Like I thought
they were going to scream. They were both like stun silent,
like they Rosie like could not comprehend it. She was
like standing in the doorway like, and then she just
like slowly.

Speaker 4 (02:57):
Went and gave her a hug.

Speaker 3 (02:58):
And then when they came in the house and I
was like, Rosie, are you surprised, she was like yeah,
And I was like, yeah, Isabelle's going to sleep here tonight.

Speaker 1 (03:06):
She that's when she flipped her fucking lid. Like they
both started screaming and like jumping up and down.

Speaker 5 (03:11):
It was so cute.

Speaker 1 (03:13):
They're like such little like I'm glad they gold made. Wait,
but you knew obviously that they were coming.

Speaker 3 (03:17):
I knew, Yeah, I knew, I knew, but it was
like it was only planned a couple of days in
advance that the dad just had some meetings out here,
so he was coming out and uh like that's yeah cut.

Speaker 1 (03:27):
Well, yeah, of course, because that friend is the one
who inherited my stuffed rainbow poop emoji unicorns stuffed animal. Yes,
I hope it made it to New Jersey. It sure
did it. Sure did that baby travel across country.

Speaker 4 (03:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (03:44):
So and now they're at camp today together they're having
like a cute little reunion. What camp is rosy? And now, oh,
I'll do a little shout out for this camp. If
you live in the Los Angeles area, they're doing this
camp called Hawks.

Speaker 4 (03:56):
It's awesome.

Speaker 3 (03:58):
It's all over the LA area, so there are different
like locations and they go to different parks every day.

Speaker 4 (04:04):
They hike.

Speaker 3 (04:05):
They like are in nature. They're outside all day. It's
basically hike based. They own hikes. They stop, they play games,
they stop and have little luncheon brakes and stuff, and
they love it.

Speaker 4 (04:17):
They're both doing it.

Speaker 1 (04:18):
Hawk's la everybody that's a free shout out my niece.
So where she's staying in Mexico, there's all these hummingbirds
and she's setting up feeders for them and buying special
like nectary, you know, special juices for them. On the
ceiling outside it's there's stained glass and it looks like

(04:39):
red flowers. So these hummingbirds get up there, but then
they don't have the energy to sustain themselves. And when
hummingbirds don't have energy, they like go into this like coma.

Speaker 4 (04:49):
And she's been reviving hummingbirds.

Speaker 1 (04:52):
I have photos of her with like little straws, and
because I saw one that was like laying near the stairs,
I go, the humming bird needs you. And then she
like brought the hummingbird back to life. And then out
of my window there was like black hummingbirds which I've
never seen and like, yeah, just really, And then my
mom put out a line because of course she needs
to air dry her clothes, and so the bird go

(05:14):
out on the line. So it's like it was a
whole like hummingbird rehab. I also we went to a
cafe where a cat's like hang out.

Speaker 4 (05:22):
There's two cats it's their cafe.

Speaker 1 (05:24):
And oh my god, they were like all I mean,
we were desperate for them, and they knew, they knew.

Speaker 3 (05:30):
It was like, so that's so cute. But Rosie's obsessed
with hummingbirds.

Speaker 1 (05:37):
I'll send the photos I took because I also walked
upon like a giant like a colony of giant wooden
nests like sticks, like obviously normal looking nests, like domes
filled with green like parrots, whole colony of them, whoa
in nature. But also I saw a bird that makes

(05:59):
its nest from bucks a rock nest, which was like incredible,
so sturdy, so sturdy.

Speaker 3 (06:07):
I don't know, you must have to work really hard
to like grab that little rock and get an airborne
with you.

Speaker 4 (06:12):
Damn.

Speaker 5 (06:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (06:13):
I just really love the animals.

Speaker 1 (06:14):
I don't want to become a bird person, but I
have one friend who's a bird person, so I've been
sending her all the birds, and I don't I think.

Speaker 4 (06:19):
She's like why, It's like I barely know this woman.

Speaker 3 (06:21):
But I just showed the kids a picture of a
hummingbird nest that I saw at my friend's house the
other day. It was like, look at this, it's so tiny.
It's like so little, these little ummings.

Speaker 1 (06:31):
They defy science, but they just need so much energy
because they're stop trying to.

Speaker 4 (06:36):
Suck the nectar out of the stained glass.

Speaker 1 (06:38):
Little birds, they're just I don't know why they can't
tell it's not a flower.

Speaker 4 (06:43):
Oh my god, I also have to tell you this. Okay.

Speaker 3 (06:45):
I went to my friend's birthday party last week and
it was roller skating.

Speaker 4 (06:52):
Oh fun. So I don't think I've ever roller.

Speaker 3 (06:56):
Skated, Like I literally have a tiny memory of roller
skating maybe when I was like ten or eleven. But
it could be a dream, you know what I mean,
Like it could be something I dreamt like I have.
No that was not like there was no roller rink
around where I lived, Like we were more ice skating.

Speaker 4 (07:13):
So I got there and I was like, oh, I.

Speaker 3 (07:14):
Can probably I could probably be okay because I know
how to ice skate, like the balance of it all
and like the break on the front and stuff.

Speaker 4 (07:21):
Like I think I'll get it. And I was doing.

Speaker 3 (07:23):
Okay, and I was like going around the rink, and
then this girl skated into me who knew how to skate.

Speaker 4 (07:29):
I saw her skating later and I was like, you're good.
Why were you anywhere near me, get away from me.

Speaker 3 (07:32):
I'm just like trying to make my way around the
rink and I full legs out from under me landed
on my tailbone. My cocksix is bruised.

Speaker 1 (07:43):
And I'm very uncomfortable really, but I did get back
up and get back on the horse.

Speaker 4 (07:49):
I went. I kept going. I went back around and
I skated with my old friend Trixie Mattel. She was there.

Speaker 1 (07:57):
I skated up to her, but he was in boy
drag so, like I'll say, he I skate up to him.
He was like, uh, he was like laughing. He goes,
you know, I still have you on my phone. I
think about you sometimes, and I was like, I think
about you all the time. I listen to your podcast
every week. And then we just skated around for a
while together and we just talked about RuPaul and we

(08:19):
talked about all kinds of stuff and it was really cute.
I just watched how they won't ask Alaska to do
any drag race stuff because she has a podcast with Willem,
and that's that.

Speaker 3 (08:31):
Yeah, Willim is kind of off limits. I feel like
for them over there.

Speaker 1 (08:35):
I know, but I would have loved to see Alaska
on like all Winners, all Stars, like that would have
been cool.

Speaker 3 (08:41):
Yeah, it sucks too because it is like a little
bit like drag is all about reading people and being
fucking sassy and saying maybe what people don't want to
hear and shit. But I understand also that you're like
a business and when you view somebody as a liability,
you know, like.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
But William's the liability, you know what I mean. I
like Alaska, but it makes me love Alaska even more
knowing she's sticking by her good Judy. Yeah, yeah, I
think also Alaska works. I think Alaska's That's fine. I'm
being selfish because I would have loved to see her

(09:15):
with the group. You know, and you saw the New
Trader's monet exchange. Okay, so I did. I saw the
New Traders whatever. There's a comic on there, and I'm pissed.
There's no way it should be him and not me,
And I don't care. I'm saying it right now. We're
at war round functions. How dare you? How dare you? What?
Because your in trolls, because your controls you get to

(09:36):
go to Scotland.

Speaker 4 (09:37):
I'm like, so mad. He is an interesting pick.

Speaker 1 (09:41):
Yeah, I bet he's gonna make it far because he's
like has the sweet little voice, and but maybe he'll
be cut through. I mean, who fucking knows. But is
funny because.

Speaker 3 (09:50):
It's like not his real voice, like a good voice,
but I saw. Okay, wait, let's talk housewives that are on.
Though we've got Rina Candy a Candy as I call her, Candace.

Speaker 4 (10:02):
Fresh off the Baby, Dorinda is back.

Speaker 3 (10:05):
I just think Dirinda being back, and maybe I'm too
simple minded, you can tell me, because I've only watched
one season of Traders, the most recent one. Isn't everybody
just gonna assume at this time they make her a
Trader like and then they voter off like pretty soon.

Speaker 4 (10:17):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (10:17):
I feel like my brain didn't even go there, so
I don't know you're being even maybe I shouldn't be
on this show.

Speaker 4 (10:23):
I was not thinking that at all.

Speaker 3 (10:24):
I thought they'd be like, oh, well they brought Dirinda back,
and I'm excited I would be faithful again.

Speaker 4 (10:30):
Well I'm excited to see Donna Kelsey.

Speaker 1 (10:31):
It's like, why this mom's person at like, you know,
we've seen her be like, these are my cookies and
my sons. But I wonder what she's gonna be like
when Lisa Rena is like popping off.

Speaker 4 (10:43):
I've honestly seen her in still photos.

Speaker 3 (10:45):
I've never seen her talk, so like, I don't know
what she's like at all.

Speaker 1 (10:52):
Yeah, I'm excited. Oh Johnny Weir, Yeah, I'm like into it.
I'm excited to talk Johnny Wear's cool, He's in it. Yeah, yeah,
that'll be really fun because we need someone bringing the fashion,
you know what I mean. We can't have all these
survivor sociopaths. We need like a couple, We need another
gab but you know, like we need some.

Speaker 3 (11:08):
Out Yeah money, money, well will be turning looks, of course,
I'm sure.

Speaker 4 (11:12):
But yeah, oh poorsha, my face porsia. That's right.

Speaker 1 (11:16):
So oh Tara Lipinski and they're actually best friends, so
they might be that might fuck them up.

Speaker 4 (11:20):
Who's best friends? Tara Lipinski and Johnny Whir? Oh they are?
Are they? Okay?

Speaker 3 (11:26):
Yeah? Interesting? I need like a list. They just keep
showing me their faces and I'm on the holiday.

Speaker 1 (11:32):
Well that's so funny because I only want the faces,
and I'm on the Hollywood Reporter looking at the names
being like what the fuck, Like, I don't know who
this singer songwriter is like, oh my god, Kristen Kish
the hottest person ever time I know.

Speaker 3 (11:44):
I knew you were going to be so excited when
I saw her name, I was like, Liza's gonna die
because I knew you were a big kish head.

Speaker 1 (11:50):
I'm a kish head, but also so like I was
in Mexico for eight days, so I didn't watch anything.

Speaker 4 (11:54):
So yesterday I got back to.

Speaker 1 (11:55):
The hotel and I ordered food and I watched finale
of Top Chef, premiere of Miami, I watch Next Gen NYC,
I finished Love hotel, and I was up till five
in the morning. It's sick, like I need to I
need help. He got back to your region and you
were like, give it to me, you give me my shows.

(12:21):
And I watched drag Race as well, but I was
so desperate in Mexico. I actually watched the Pit Stop
before I even watched drag Race because I was like,
I need to know what is happening.

Speaker 4 (12:29):
I'm like, this is killing me. But okay.

Speaker 3 (12:33):
So also them putting on Stephen Colletti from a Laguna beach.

Speaker 4 (12:37):
I love that. I feel like they're trying to make
him the new Dylan.

Speaker 3 (12:40):
But I think he's he's going to be a Dylan
Sandoval hybrid, because I do kind of think Stephen Collett's
a bit of a.

Speaker 1 (12:46):
Dumb dumb No, but you know he's an actor too,
is he you watched No, like in the Hollywood Reporter
doesn't say, look gonna be just as one Tree Hill.

Speaker 4 (12:54):
He had like a fastful career. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:57):
No, I think he's grown up. I don't think he's
a sand of all. I don't think. Oh and I
watched The Valley, which is a dark show, and I'd
like to comment on The Valley really quickly. I've seen
some people online be like, you know, like we gave
so much shit to Sandoval, and Jaxon is doing so
much worse to Brittany. I mean full abuse, like spying
on her, like putting her house in folk foreclosures, stealing

(13:20):
money from the pod like truly like he's a psychopath, cokehead.
Why people are like why aren't we more nice to bet?
Like why are we not giving him hate? And it's
like cause we're not surprised by Jack's behavior. The whole
point about Scandival was the shock and surprise and what
the fuck is going on? Jacks has been a horrible,
terrible person since day one.

Speaker 4 (13:39):
We saw him cheat on Brittany, We.

Speaker 3 (13:40):
Saw him brittanyel sunglasses on a cast trip. We saw
Brittany have a listen to a voice recording of him
like sucking Faith's toes, you know what I mean? Like,
what are we doing here that We're like, why aren't
we giving Britney more support?

Speaker 1 (13:55):
And it's like because she married the devil. Yeah, she
didn't marry me. I think Sandoval is the devil as well.
I'm just saying like it was shocking, and we were
on this journey with them for nine years and it
was like, what the fuck. The reason we're not is
because this is Yeah, it's Jack's pretending he's in rehabby
is not. He's threatening the secretary, the receptionist at this

(14:16):
place to lie for him. It's like, yeah, it's bonkers.
There's a child. This isn't like ooh revenge dress and
obviously Ariana went through trauma. This is like full on abuse,
but like, this is who he is. No one is
surprised by this. The surprising thing is she's let it
go this far, and I don't want to diminish that

(14:36):
she is abused by this manipulative man.

Speaker 4 (14:38):
It's not like her quote like fault.

Speaker 1 (14:41):
But I think that's why if you're someone that's like,
why is Jack's not getting the same hate as Sandoval?

Speaker 4 (14:46):
That is my theory.

Speaker 3 (14:47):
Yes, it's not as surprising in any way. We all
knew he was gonna do this kind of shit. And
I mean I in one of my in one of
my Bravo groups, like I saw somebody posts like Jack's
on watch what Happens Live tonight? Don't watch, like everybody
unset it from your DVRs, like, don't watch it.

Speaker 4 (15:03):
Let's show the network that we don't want Jacks on
our screens anymore.

Speaker 3 (15:06):
Like I'm being it's like a tiny act of protest
and I don't know if it'll work, but like you know,
it's not is horrible. I mean it's crazy to me too,
because it's like I always think that Bravo gives people
like puts people on pause or a break when they
are actually getting to an abusive place, when it's women,
when it's a woman, like when it's like Derinda and

(15:27):
we're like, okay, we feel like the drinking's may be
gone a little bit too far or it's like Vicky
being a little bit too kooky anti vax or whatever.
They'll like take her off, but someone like Jax can
just like roam free on reality television forever. Back to
the back to the casting though a little bit of traders.
I do kind of like that they're going a little

(15:48):
lighter on the competitive people, like the competition show people. Yes,
you know, because I never watch Big Brother and I
don't watch Survivor and stuff like that. So when they
have all this like politics and they kind of talk
about gameplay more like I'm sort of more like there
for the personalities.

Speaker 4 (16:05):
You know, like and we need that.

Speaker 1 (16:07):
The thing is, we need some of the game players
to keep it going and fuck around and have the traders.
But it's like I don't want to watch Sociopaths win.
I want Derinda on my screen. Yeah, like Derinda was
never a threat. But they're just thinking numbers and like
we can use this later and we can't. Like four
of them is enough. There's probably there still are like
four or five. There's like a couple, a couple survived.

(16:29):
There's some that this one girl is amazing race Survivor
and the challenge. It's like and Thenalie Island people. Natalie
is one of my favorite Survivor players ever.

Speaker 4 (16:39):
Yeah she's the one.

Speaker 3 (16:40):
Yeah, I really really love her, so I am happy
she's there. But I don't think they have like a
Boston Rob. They don't have like a hated guy. I
don't think from one of those, Like there's the first
openly gay guy to win Survivor is Yum Yum a Rocho, Aroco.

Speaker 1 (16:53):
Rob Sistina. I don't know, Like you're right, it's not
the big names.

Speaker 3 (16:57):
Yeah, I know, Boston Rob was not even watching those shows,
you know.

Speaker 1 (17:02):
Yeah, he posted a cute, cute Father's Day. He has
four daughters, he loves his wife.

Speaker 4 (17:07):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (17:08):
I'm just like I don't know anybody from Love Island though,
because I don't watch Love.

Speaker 1 (17:12):
I well, Laura, I know, because she's so beautiful, so
like I remember her because.

Speaker 3 (17:16):
I used to to She is gorgeous. So yeah, it's
gonna be a good one. It's gonna be a good
I know.

Speaker 1 (17:23):
I was talking to my niece and I was like, wait, Littas,
you gotta make it.

Speaker 5 (17:26):
You know.

Speaker 1 (17:26):
I gave her my Max Pastor. I'm like, you gotta
watch it. You would love it you love Thailand. Oh
my god, you have to watch girls and like girls
would be cool, like you're of the age, like watch
and she goes, yeah, I don't really watch that much TV.

Speaker 4 (17:35):
Like back off. She's like, I ain't read books.

Speaker 1 (17:38):
Oh god, but I mean she's gonna be like when
you showed her, uh Devil wears Prada and she was like,
why is he not stopping? No, but I exaggerated that.
She's like, we had a great time. I mean we
had so much fun. I missed the food in Mexico already,
Like the food was so fresh, so good.

Speaker 4 (17:54):
I actually didn't even neat that much Mexican food.

Speaker 1 (17:56):
Like the best tuna salad I've ever had in my
fucking life was in Mexico. Damn, I feel like we're
losing you. You're gonna head down there?

Speaker 4 (18:04):
I am.

Speaker 1 (18:04):
I mean honestly, I could probably like if I never
I mean, I just love comedy so much in New
York and I love my life. But yeah, but like, yeah,
it is. It's weird. Yeah, things are more affordable. They're
obviously the exchange rate, and so you are living like
at a Toma Hawk's steak for meal, Like yeah, on
the water I had Margarita's the size of my head.

(18:26):
I mean, yeah, it was it was just nice to
get away, be with my family, chill.

Speaker 3 (18:32):
I don't know, it was really nice. I don't really
take vacations. That's really nice. I'm glad you got some
time to recharge.

Speaker 5 (18:38):
Well.

Speaker 4 (18:38):
At first, I was like, I was like, what are
we gonna do? What are we gonna do?

Speaker 1 (18:40):
And then I was like, oh, just just you could
just sit down and yeah, hang out and gossip and
you know, chat with my niece. But yeah, please come
see me. Oh yeah, this isn't it. Yeah, come see me, guys.
This comes out the twenty fourth. So what's coming Australia.

(19:02):
Oh yeah, in the fall. I have dates like I'm
going to Texas and Missouri and I'm gonna like book
some more stuff out.

Speaker 3 (19:08):
But but all of our ausy listeners get down there.

Speaker 4 (19:11):
You're already down there.

Speaker 1 (19:13):
Get out there and get tickets, Cosey Lisa. Yeah, I'm
excited to be in Australia. It's gonna be a wild schedule,
so many fights. Yeah, and I also it's also so funny.
It's like I obviously live my life. I like, am
so mature. And then I get back to my family,
and I'm like, wait, leave the name of the coffee shop.
I don't know if I can find it. And it's like, what.

Speaker 4 (19:32):
Are you doing? No, I regress.

Speaker 3 (19:35):
My friend was telling me so much about how she
regresses whenever she goes home to her family. She's an
only child, and she's just like, when I go home,
I'm like.

Speaker 4 (19:44):
A guys making me anything to eat.

Speaker 1 (19:45):
Like she's just like such a bit, like she says,
she does the exact same thing, like I'm like.

Speaker 4 (19:49):
Wait, which one do I do?

Speaker 5 (19:50):
Wait?

Speaker 4 (19:51):
Which button for the laundry?

Speaker 1 (19:52):
And it's like I've lived a full life, Like what
the fuck is going I travel the world?

Speaker 4 (19:57):
And then I'm like what terminal?

Speaker 1 (20:00):
I know? But at the same time, I bet your
parents like it a little bit.

Speaker 3 (20:03):
I like bet, I bet they like a little bit going.
She still needs us, she still needs mom and dad.
I bet they like it.

Speaker 1 (20:10):
Yeah, it was. It was a nice hanging out. I mean, yeah,
it's fucking cute.

Speaker 3 (20:15):
Well really quick though. But from the pre regression conversation.
Go to That's Messed Up live dot com. You can
scroll down towards as Liza's websites. She has all of
her Australia and New Zealand dates are there like separately,
and that's the correct stuff. Sometimes don't google shit because
it comes up like fake ticket sites or whatever. I
don't know if Australia is as bad as here, but
go there, get all of the info, get your tics,

(20:37):
spread the word.

Speaker 1 (20:38):
I swear I had real life to talk about too.
I feel so boring, like Mexico is nice. I had
tuna salad and then I watched six episodes of television.
When I get back to America, what that's okay?

Speaker 3 (20:49):
I fell and broke my ass bhone. I don't have
that much more to report.

Speaker 1 (20:52):
Oh, I will say this. I can't wait to see
the footage of ice in Philly. Philly, do your fucking thing. Yeah, Philly,
do your thing.

Speaker 3 (21:02):
We're talking about a fucking city that greases the lamppost
so that people can't climb them.

Speaker 1 (21:08):
After the Super Bowl. No, they didn't want you guys alive.
It's like the mayor every two months. Please please don't
climb anything. But I had so much fun in Philly.
Everyone is, oh my god, wait, so I was performing
in Philly. This has never happened to me ever in
my life. I forgot truly where I was, and I
thought I was in Boston, and I started talking about
the Celtics, and then everyone booed because obviously I'm talking

(21:29):
about the Celtics.

Speaker 4 (21:29):
And then I go where am I?

Speaker 1 (21:32):
And I had to look around, and I swear it
took me like ten fifteen seconds to realize I was
in Balley.

Speaker 4 (21:38):
So funny. I could see that happening. You're all over
the place.

Speaker 1 (21:41):
And then I talked for a few more minutes and
like did call and then I went, oh my god,
you're the seventy six ers of course, Allen Iverson. And
then you know, I mentioned to kem Bain Matumbo and
I got them back. But like it was this thing
where I truly forgot where I was. I could not
believe it. So funny.

Speaker 3 (21:58):
You're like, am I in New York's little brother to
the North or New York's little brother to the South,
Like where am i? And you know our favorite woman
that works at the Philly punchline yes cue.

Speaker 1 (22:09):
So she makes them like fans, like you know, like
drag Race, Oh yeah, fans, And so she gifted me
and the other Opener Comics fans that she made, but
the fan that she made me says, not like us. Okay,
I can't take that into poppeah. Yeah yeah.

Speaker 4 (22:27):
So I was like, thank you so much and thanks
for your artistry. But I can't. I think I have
to give this to somebody. Yeah, yeah, I have them,
not like us.

Speaker 1 (22:36):
Fan Have I said this already because I was, I
was talking to you after Philly?

Speaker 4 (22:40):
Whatever? No, I mean, who knows? You don't even know
what city you Ryan? Who? Who knows?

Speaker 3 (22:45):
I mean again, I don't want to get in trouble
for forgetting something like the trading cards.

Speaker 4 (22:49):
But I don't think you've told me this before.

Speaker 3 (22:53):
Also, I did talk about my broken ass on a
different podcast, if you guys want to, If you guys
want Oh, actually, can I do give a little shout
out my other podcast that I do that's like an
advice podcast with Jackie Zebrowski called Who's the Bitch. We're
actually in two days, the twenty sixth of June, having
a big three hour live call in show where we

(23:14):
are going to talk to guests and we're gonna answer
a ton of call in questions and it's all gonna
be on our YouTube channel, which is YouTube dot com.
Forward Slash the at symbol. Who's the bee? So check
that out. That's the thing I'm got going on. I
can't believe you've become a YouTuber. This is kind of thrilling,
isn't that crazy? Yeah, they're like, we used to do

(23:34):
all this shit on Twitch and now we're moving it
all over to YouTube because they have a lot of
the same functionality and everything's got to be on YouTube.
People are listening to podcasts on YouTube. We should actually
put our episodes on YouTube. I guess they might be there.
Who knows, anyone, Casey, if you have a second, could
you just upload two hundred and forty episodes to YouTube
when you have a chance.

Speaker 1 (23:52):
Thanks, thank you, thank you so much. But yeah, let's
kick off. We've got this. We're going back.

Speaker 3 (24:00):
We're going back to the beginning, back to basics for
this episode.

Speaker 1 (24:03):
So don't go anywhere, all right. We are doing a nocturn.
Is that a word or not? What is this?

Speaker 4 (24:14):
It isn nock turn.

Speaker 3 (24:15):
I mean a nocturn is like probably French or natural
thing for nocturnal.

Speaker 4 (24:21):
But I also think that it's they're being really artsy
season one, real artsy with this.

Speaker 3 (24:28):
Through my googling, nocturn is actually a Chopin piece, and
that makes sense with the piano themes of the is it?

Speaker 1 (24:37):
What's the Chopin about? I wonder, I don't. Is it
about sex crimes? Well, it's called the Nocturns Op. Nine
and they are a set of three nocturns for piano.
So what is a nocturn pio? It is a musical
composition that is inspired by or evocative of the night. Okay,

(24:58):
any kind of not turn that is the kind of piece.
And then there's a famous one by Chopin were wolf vibes,
Yes of the night, the music of the note. So
I'm staying, you know, here in Mexico, and I swear
it was haunted. And I kept telling my family, I'm like,
there's ghosts. There's ghosts. I hear them, I feel them.

(25:19):
There's ghosts. It's just lizards. It's just the lizards communicating
to each other at night.

Speaker 4 (25:24):
But no one gave me a headset of little lizards.

Speaker 1 (25:27):
Oh my god, that's so funny. Yeah, they just started.
They're like, it's the lizards, So no ghosts here? All right,
Well we'll begin this piano of it all. And you
did not play or you did play piano I know
I did play piano my entire family.

Speaker 3 (25:41):
Basically, my mom's a huge pianist and her family plays,
and she wanted all of us kids to play. And
I took lessons for a few years and then begged
to quit. And now I really regret it, Like I
really wish I knew how to play, and I thought
about taking lessons as an adult, but I just would
have to get a keyboard to practice and this and that.
But my brother is an excellent pianist, his husband and
plays piano. My sister, like everybody played for a while.

Speaker 4 (26:04):
Damn.

Speaker 1 (26:05):
All right, Yeah, it's a cool one, all right. So
photos are being printed at a store. Okay, so we
could tell this very season one, Very two thousand's we're
at a fucking Kodak stand.

Speaker 3 (26:17):
So this is like where my friends worked in high school.
My friends worked at the photo place in our town,
and all my breaks, I would go see them and
they'd make me doubles of all of our photos from
the weekend for free.

Speaker 1 (26:27):
That's a cool time to have. And it's like gone
that whole thing, like no one prints photos.

Speaker 4 (26:32):
It was fun.

Speaker 1 (26:33):
I also like the smell of the film canisters, Like
I just enjoyed the whole process of it. But anyways, look, yeah,
the photos they're of a young boy. He's in a
white tank top. We don't love it. His shirt's off
and then uh oh, his pants are off. So we're
flipping through these photos of this young boy as less
and less clothes are on him. Benson and Stabler, they're

(26:53):
their stat The clerk says, the guy dropped them off
about forty five minutes ago. So someone's springing for one
hour photo, which is a crazier thing to do because
they have to do it in store, so everyone's gonna
see your perverted stuff.

Speaker 4 (27:04):
You know what I mean, insane.

Speaker 3 (27:05):
If you're gonna take photos of something perverted, I'm sorry,
but you have to like have a friend that works
at the photomart or you need to get your own dorkroom.

Speaker 1 (27:14):
Well, if they ship them out to the photo center,
it's a little different, but here it's like they're printing
right in like we know you, like, what are you?

Speaker 4 (27:21):
I don't not to like help you help out.

Speaker 3 (27:24):
If they ship out to the photo center, that's also
pornography across the state lines and stuff like that. You know,
Like I don't know, I think that this guy was
trying to get it done as quick as possible and
in his area.

Speaker 4 (27:34):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (27:34):
Yeah, so his name's Larry Holt. He had a coupon
humiliating and the dude whatever the photo guys like, I
didn't like it.

Speaker 4 (27:43):
I knew to call it in like I knew.

Speaker 1 (27:45):
Immediately, Sailor agrees and goes, yeah, these poses are fucked.
Someone is posing this boy And Benson sees a bottle
of booze in the picture too, and she goes, uh, oh,
not booze. And then it's gonna be hard to prove
child's porn. But this could also be the tip of
the iceberg. And but also if this guy gets a
wind that the detectives are onto him, he might clean
everything up. So they're gonna tail him for a few weeks,

(28:06):
see what's up. But then he walks in just then,
and you know, we can't expect the photo work guy
to be an incredible actor and act like nothing's wrong.
So he knows what's up. He's like, what's up. There's
a badge, there's an arrest. We are in a press
and this guy looks like a puppet of an old man,
like he would be in mister Rogers little Castle like,

(28:28):
he's not a pulse man, so he's in holding. And
then his lawyer is the like editor and she like
above and a wind tour in the Devil Wars Prada.
Oh so if you guys remember the owner of their
like version of Condonast, it's him, right, and he's been
in a few episodes. And then behind the spy victim
the victim okay, new blurb. So behind the spy window

(28:50):
is our detectives and Cragan, who knows there's not enough evidence,
and the detectives go, yeah, no, we know, but we
didn't have a choice. The motherfucker walked in like we
what are we gonna do? Stabler keeps pleading with Craigan,
like we need to do something, and then Craigan has
wild excuses why they can't. So Stabler goes, hello, who
wears hotpants in the winter, and then Craigan goes, maybe

(29:11):
the kid had a growth spurt?

Speaker 4 (29:13):
What are you talking about?

Speaker 1 (29:16):
And so it's back and forth and they're like, you know,
these poses are taught. And then there's some other man
in a suit that arrives. I'll get into him later.
Right now, I'm like, I'm not learning it. I go,
who are you, sir? But they explained to him that
Holts is a piano teacher and this is his student,
which is not good, and that means there's a lot
of other students that probably take lessons from this man.

(29:38):
And also like if there's photos, that means there's more photos,
YadA YadA. We know how this fucking works. And he
looks like a pervert, and so we need a warrant
to get in there and find them. So then the
man in the suit, like I said, I'll get to him.
It's eighty A Mark Hickey and the actor's name is
John Benjamin Hickey. So that's insane, and he's very famous.

(29:58):
You know him, you've seen his He was also in
season fifteen Wednesday's Child, and.

Speaker 4 (30:04):
Then he's in Sex in the City.

Speaker 1 (30:06):
He's in season one and it's when Miranda's having sex
with a guy who has to shower. He's like a Catholic, right,
he can't stop showering. I remember that guy, So it's him,
and he knows that a judge is gonna throw this
case out. And then the Devil wears Prada marches up
and he's like, I'm taking my Oh. He goes, you

(30:26):
took my clients wallet and keys, and Craigan goes, oh,
that's totally normal though, and the Devil Wars product goes,
I want him back, and he wants to go back home.
He needs to feed his dog. They're trying to fight. Well,
he can't go he might destroy evidence. Like it's a
real tug of war of what we're gonna do. And
then they send the Devil Wears prod on a goose chase.
They go, oh, yeah, they sent his stuff to like,

(30:50):
I don't know, a holding place. And then when he
goes to like to find the items in the holding place,
Benson shows that the envelope of all his stuff is
in her desk and I guess things are just gonna
move slower than they have to. So that's kind of exciting.
But yeah, they don't want him to go home. He's
going to destroy evidence. So now there's a unique cop

(31:11):
until they get a warrant. But to get a warrant,
they need more evidence. It's like, we know how those works.
And there's a unique cop stopping a man from entering
his home and Benson and Stabler approach and he goes,
this is my father's house what's going on. But they
don't have a warrant and so they can't get in,
but they want to keep people out, so they're like, okay,
we're locking down the house whether you like it or not,

(31:32):
which I didn't know the cops can do. But now
we're living in a world where people can do anything
they want. Badge, no badge, honestly whatever needs to happen.
So then the soun's like, all right, bye, I'll walk away,
and so the sun kind of leaves. This is all
kind of strange to me, but I'll take it. And

(31:53):
it's a very big, nice place, and I can't believe
this piano teacher is such a big house. But we
realize it's not a fancy neighborhood. So this old white
guy moved into like a neighborhood that the other population
is not like him, and so but he can afford
a bigger house.

Speaker 4 (32:12):
Who knows.

Speaker 1 (32:13):
So they keep chatting about it, and then they go, well,
it's also not a fucking accident. This giant ass house
is across the street from an elementary school. So he
has like a mansion of brownstone across the street from
an elementary school. And at that moment, a little boy
comes running to the house. They stop him and he goes,
I have piano lessons, and guess what, it's the fucking
boy from the photo.

Speaker 4 (32:31):
So they're holding like how what what luck? What luck?
What luck?

Speaker 1 (32:36):
And for the whole episode, I want you guys to
know that it's winter and anytime they walk outside you
can hear the crispy snow and it's awesome. You really
don't hear or see snow as much, I would say
in SVU anymore.

Speaker 4 (32:50):
And it was exciting. It was exciting.

Speaker 1 (32:53):
Oh, probably global warming because I'm like, there is, yeah, winter,
but yeah, there's less snow on the ground. And so
you know, we got a ask the dad for questions.
We got to figure things out. The little boy did
find the photos once, that's what they learned, and the
man called them snappies. He basically went into the music
books the music stand and a bunch of the photos

(33:14):
fell out and it was kids with no clothing on,
and it's late at night. But they have to get
in there tonight or something happens. They have two more
hours to get in there or they can never get
in there again. Whatever funky little rules they're coming up with,
and breaking, and so Benson, Munch and Jeffreys are like
so ready to go in and finally they're like, we
got it, so they get to get in there. It's

(33:35):
painted for children, it's big plastic creans old vintage furniture,
a giant box of musical books, which does make sense,
and then oh, an album of shirtless boys what does
not belong? And Munch is looking and opens a door
and there are so many tapes like and a TV
is glowing blue. They press play and we hear a

(33:57):
boy saying please, don't it hurts, and the man goes
it's okay, and it's his photo room, tons and tapes
like I would say, hundreds hundreds. Benson is so upset,
she's so grossed out. And now we're in court and
we have forty three photos that are obscene and he
gets charged with the endangering the welfare of a child,
the use of a child in sexual performance, and then
promoting an an obscene sexual performance by a child. And

(34:21):
then it's one hundred and fifty seven tapes and the
judge is gobsmacked, bail denied, go to jail, pervert. So
now they have to watch all the tapes. So we
have Munch, Benson Craigan and Jeffries and this goes back
thirteen years, so they have to go through thirteen years
of video and he's holding little boy's shoulders, sitting next
to them. He's playing. The boy's saying no. And then

(34:43):
we watch a few videos and it's the same boy
growing like in all of these videos, so we see
him as like a tiny child, a bigger child, and
then like truly a teen. And so now he's a
grown teen and we hear the man go please don't
and the tea talking about discipline and technique because nothing
gets you to play the piano better than assault. Like

(35:06):
what is happening? I mean, I guess Joe Jackson. But anyways,
the guy is fully grown. He's playing incredible piano. It's
really good piano, and he looks weird. Sorry he's in
a bow, but he acts like he's also been abused
for a long time, so I guess.

Speaker 4 (35:22):
Weird is a rude word.

Speaker 1 (35:23):
But like he's strange, and they're really upset that they
have to watch it all and they have so much
more to do, and Belzer's like, you know what, I'll stay,
I'll do it, and they're chatting about all the charges,
but stablers like, no, I want a charge of abuse,
but they can't do that without a complainant, and Craigan goes,
we need to get that kid. So we pause it

(35:45):
and it's the boy that we just watched grow up
and we need to go find him. They have his
photos and they're going to scan the neighborhood and ask around.
And everyone in the neighborhood loves Larry. They think he's
a little fruity, but hey, and Jeffries is with a
video clerk and he's like, Larry is the best guy
I know. And it's like, what do you what do
you know ten guys that come to the video store,
Like this man is a creep from the moment you

(36:06):
watch his little eyes. The video clerks kids take lessons
from Larry. He's like, you know, he's strict, but the
kids love him. Everyone loves Larry. And then they bring
up Ray Guzamando and we're gonna hear a lot about
Ray Guzamandoo. And basically there's a post ter him at
the store and he's like a local hero. He's a
hot shot piano player. He's wearing a suit. It's or

(36:29):
not a suit of text, like a bow tie, like
a real classical pianist, and so he's like Larry sees
the best in kids and brings the most out in them.
The video clerk says he makes a difference in people's
lives and does more for them than you ever will,
and like for most cops, I would say that, but
definitely not our detectives. Yeah, they're gonna make a lot

(36:50):
of difference for actually doing a lot. Yeah sorry, one
guy made it a professional piano player. But even in
season one, I think they've put a few criminals behind
bars that deserved it. So Jeffrees, Benson and Stabler are
walking and you know, I've wrote about the snow crunch here,
like I truly, I wrote about it so much. And

(37:13):
they think people knew. They're like they think people knew.
They're just pretending that they don't, because like then they
would have to question their own parenting and what they're
doing to protect their children or not. Benson goes, why
would anyone even want to have kids? Like it's crazy,
and then Stabler says, because you want to do that
more than anything in the world. And I really like
that where it's like, yeah, if you want it more

(37:34):
than anything in the world, you should have a kid.
And if it's not that feeling, I don't think you should. Yeah,
if you're on the fence, don't do it. And we've
never seen Stabler this measured and understanding of parenthood where
it's like he wanted to be a father more than
anything in the world, and he made that happen for
himself with you know, Kathy, who he keeps trapped in
his home. But and it's also the thing of like,

(37:58):
why don't you want to have kids because I don't
want you more than anything in the world. It's like,
and you wouldn't want me to have one, you know,
running around It's just I like it. First, this is
the first time Stablers like, well, yeah, it's like the
first time he's he hasn't just said like, oh, because
God says this is what we're supposed to do. And like,
you know, I just don't want to wear a condom,
you know, basically yeah, because the virgin Mary wouldn't like condoms. Yeah,

(38:21):
something like that. But I just I liked this little moment.
And then they hear classical music being played on a
piano and they run into Larry's home and it's the
boy we've seen in the tape. He has shelled back
hair and it's Angel from Rent, so's huge. And then
there's the Ray poster and on the fireplace behind him,
so you know Ray Guzamondo everywhere.

Speaker 4 (38:43):
So then they they meet Evan.

Speaker 1 (38:45):
Evan's the abused man, and they show him a photo
and they're like, we're looking for this guy. And now
we're in a separate we're in a new room, marble room, blinds,
so oh that's okaying, And the door opens, there's Ams
files and you know, he loves he loves holtzt he
loves him. He's trying to get and he's helping him

(39:07):
try to get into a three year program. He wants
to go to Juilliard, you know, lots of practice and
this teacher taught him for free the whole time. And
then there's a lot of general chats and then Benson
is like, we know what he did and you need
to tell us, but he said nothing happened to him.
Benson is like, how old were you the first time
you had sex? And he goes, oh, I haven't had
sex yet, And they keep trying to convince him that,

(39:29):
like Quoltz has hurt him. He goes, no, I was
just like pushed really hard. But I've met the bar
and nothing bad has happened. I'm like amazing, and I'm
going to be like Ray too. So Craigan is deep
in thought trying to figure it out, and suggests maybe
showing him the tape, but Staylor's like, well if he
doesn't remember something, like, why are we going to traumatize
this guy into like being like here, you were abused

(39:50):
but you never know it.

Speaker 4 (39:51):
Whatever.

Speaker 1 (39:52):
So they're like debating is it worth ruining his life
and full future or not to show the tapes or
like showman court or let him just live. No, he
was abused, I don't know. So Kragan is with Evan
and they're hitting play on the tape. Obviously we got
to keep the story moving. We can't be like, honestly,
we do care about your mental health. You should go home.
Nothing happened wrong.

Speaker 4 (40:10):
Person.

Speaker 1 (40:12):
They're gonna say, we're gonna watch You're gonna watch a
tape of you being abused. He warns him this is
gonna be hard to watch and what happened was wrong
and that we need help from you, Evan, And then
Evan is realizing what's happening? And he's like, what is this?
And it is ruining him. He's begging for it to
be turned off. He stands in the corner, slides down
the wall to the ground and he is repeating, no, no,

(40:33):
this went and this one bad, this went bad. So
now we're back on the snow and Benson and Stabler
go talk to his mother and she's smoking and drinking
and it's Newport, so you know what that means. She
said they're mental. She doesn't care about her health. Okay,
so there's a bottle obviously, there's also an open bottle

(40:57):
of aspirin.

Speaker 4 (40:58):
I mean, she's got a lot of substance go in.

Speaker 1 (41:01):
Oh and then they're also talking to Evan, and Evan
had his fucking Juilliard audition the next day, so it's like,
now you've traumatized him before his big audition.

Speaker 4 (41:09):
You couldn't wait till.

Speaker 1 (41:10):
The fun way today.

Speaker 4 (41:12):
Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (41:13):
So now they're going through the album and all the
photos and he is not giving the detectives what they want.
He loves Larry, he cares about him, you know, he
bought him a coat one year. And they keep leading
for help and like the convo always goes back at
this Gray Guzamano again, he was a prodigy at seventeen.

Speaker 4 (41:31):
And then Evan goes, and I'm twenty one. No one's
caring about me.

Speaker 1 (41:34):
And then Benson, with a fun fact, comes in and goes, well,
you know, Juliard just accepted a forty two year old
flute player. And then Evan goes, yeah, that guy was
a monk, and Benson goes, no, it's not too late,
and Evan smirks and goes, really bitch, and then opens
the album and starts going through the photos and he goes,
that's Caesar. He's in jail. That's Ricky. He's a junkie Tony.

(41:58):
No one knows where the fuck he is. And he
goes and me, I live with my mom. And so
now we're back at the precinct and all hands on debt.
Larry did not have a computer, no set schedule, and
nobody is talking about and the case is being fast tracked.
So you know, it's only on two counts because that's
all they have evidence for, and it's really fucked up

(42:18):
with everything because of the timing and statue of limitations,
and you know, this is early seasons. There's been changes
in legislation with sex crimes involving children. But for Evan,
anything before sixteen is out because of the years, like
how long ago it happened, but anything after seventeen can
be deemed consensual. So they have to prove that in

(42:41):
that one year what happened. And so they only have
two counts. It's very complicated, very annoying, and we'll see.
And he just doesn't want to betray whole, like he
he doesn't want to betray him. So so now we're
going to go talk to this junkie and jail friend.
So they talk to Ricky who's like squatted on the ground.
It's so fucking freezing. They do not help him. Oh god,

(43:05):
it's so sad to be on the street when it's cold.
He's fucked up. He goes, No, Larry's place was always warm,
it was never locked. I could always go whenever I wanted, like,
that's the place for me. And then he runs off.
And so now we're going to talk to Ray the
piano you know, master from the neighborhood. And he's living amazing.
He has like a nice ass Brownstone, a really nice car,

(43:27):
and you know, they rented that street out because only
one parked car on that side of the street. He says,
he owes a lot to Larry, and he owes the
community nothing cool. He says, Larry was the only person
that ever told him he could be somebody, and only
three ways to get out of that neighborhood. You gotta
be smart enough, or you die there, or you can

(43:48):
do something a ball or a piano. And he doesn't
want anyone to take that away from him. And they
go to try to talk to Larry's son, and he
also will not speak to the police. And Craigan goes
to the office and munch as they're watching tapes. He's
watched so many tapes. He can't sleep. He only sees tapes.
He is fucked. And then it's you know, one of
the classic like I miss homicide, you know, I miss

(44:10):
victims that don't talk. And then Craigan and him are sighing,
they're shaking heads, they're chatting. Stabler's reading to his children
and they're so little and cute. I love watching him
with the little ones. But it's Dickie and who's the
other who's the twin and it's Elizabeth. It's a rare
look at Elizabeth. We barely get any scream time from Elizabeth.

(44:31):
She's not very commonly seen now. No, So then he's
reading to the kids. But then he gets up. He
has a beeper, so it's very season one. He has
a page and oh no, and then this is like
this is my life. He grabs a white cordless phone,
and I just remember when we first got our first
chordless and what that meant to our family. And I

(44:52):
also really miss the memories of as a family recording
the voice like the message machine voice muss I liked it,
and like who is gonna do it?

Speaker 4 (45:03):
And what like were we like? I don't know.

Speaker 1 (45:05):
I really miss those times of like one communal phone
and everyone coming together for a voicemail. So that's just cute.
But it's Evan. So Evan beeped him. He calls Evan
back and as his kids climb him and they want
Christmas again, but it's February.

Speaker 4 (45:20):
They can't have Christmas.

Speaker 1 (45:21):
Staylor seems panicked and is like, I will be there
as soon as I can. So he runs to Polly's diner.
His mom threw him out. God she didn't want f
Sler staying at his place. So now he's homeless, so
again the cops, I hope you've ruined this man's life.

(45:43):
He offers emergency housing and stuff like that, but I
don't know. And then you know, Evan's hands hurt from dishwashing,
so he got fired from dishwashing, now, you know. So
he's like, fine, I'll fucking testify. So Stabler got what
he wanted. You got the victim to testify. He lost
his job, his way to live, and you fucked up
his Juilliard audition. But he's testifying, yes, Stabler if he

(46:05):
thinks he's gay, and Staylor goes, well, I don't really know.
It's not for me to say. But he's really confused
because he's never had a girlfriend. And Stabler tells him
like there's a big difference between gay and pedophile, and
that really confuses Evan. And he goes, well, listen, like
being gay is not my business, but what was done
to you? And Evan goes, you're saying I was forced.

(46:27):
So then Stabler goes, yeah, you were, and why didn't
you stop taking those lessons?

Speaker 4 (46:31):
You know?

Speaker 1 (46:32):
And he's like, I didn't think I had a choice.
So Stabler nods an understanding. Stabler then responds, whatever person
you choose, it should be your choice, and when you're
ready to see someone that way, you will. So we're
back at the Stabler household and they have a piano. Okay,
how did you afford that? I think Kathy comes from money?

Speaker 4 (46:52):
Really?

Speaker 1 (46:53):
Well, they met in private school, they live in a
giant house. They can afford to have all those kids
in the city on a police salary, and now they
have a piano and they're still going downtown for Manicotti Night.
Like I'm sorry, Yeah, maybe cavy comes for money is
a good theory.

Speaker 4 (47:12):
That's my new theory. Tell us what you guys think.

Speaker 1 (47:15):
So then Kathy asks if he is all right, you know,
because he's lurking by their piano.

Speaker 4 (47:19):
She's creeped out.

Speaker 1 (47:21):
And then they sit on the couch and he sighs
and leans back and a lot of you know, shirt
buttons are un buttoned, so that's hot, and he's having
a beer and he doesn't want to really talk to her.
So Kathy says, did you talk to Olivia about it?

Speaker 4 (47:35):
Okay? Season one?

Speaker 1 (47:37):
And he says, she's my partner, and Kathy nods and
then more like, you know, sighing a lot of sighing.
And now we're back to work. There's that was really
not finished. That convo is left. But because we just
had that work wife comment, yeah, from like an episode
we just did. I guess I'm just realizing these little moments. So, oh,

(47:57):
do you tell Olivia? Did you tell Olivia? Yeah? And
it's like, I don't know, Kathy, do you really want
to hear about like molested children? Right?

Speaker 5 (48:05):
Right?

Speaker 4 (48:05):
Keep it at keep it at work, keep it at work.

Speaker 1 (48:07):
Right? People are upset when I talk about the curri
I'm bringing up friends that stop and people are not
happy about it.

Speaker 4 (48:13):
So I don't know why she's so gung. Oh.

Speaker 1 (48:16):
Stabler and the man eightya are talking about Evan and
how we get him ready and comfortable in court. And
even though he's older, he is frozen as an eight
year old from when he was molested. So the man
lawyer is like, oh, okay, when I get kids, I
give them a courtroom prep.

Speaker 4 (48:33):
So we go to the courtroom to prep him.

Speaker 1 (48:35):
He's spinning in the judges chair, he's playing with the gavel,
he touches the witness box, he sits in it, and
they're just really planning to help him, like do the
best he can on the stand, and he can't be
in court during the whole trial because then there'd be
might be contamination. So when it's his turn, you know
that you just come on in, talk loud clear, and

(48:55):
only look at the lawyer, ignore everything else but the question,
and he smiles. Stabler has a sandwich and a soda
with a straw, which she doesn't.

Speaker 4 (49:06):
He doesn't seem like the straw type to me? Is
that rude? Is that.

Speaker 1 (49:11):
I don't know, Like I just can't imagine. I feel
like Stabler is someone that would think using a straw
is gay. Like I know he's being really progressive and
cool in this episode, but I feel like he'd be
anti straw until they said that it sucked with the turtles,
and then he'd be like, oh, come on, I don't know. Well,
I'm sick of asking for three paper straws because they

(49:32):
get so soggy and gross.

Speaker 3 (49:34):
Yeah, there has to be another way. Why can't we
just not put the trash in the oceans. I don't
understand why we have to get away from plastic straws.

Speaker 1 (49:42):
Because I would also be down for Like I like
the glass and metal straws. I like the permanent straws.
I'm not cleaning them. Yeah, I don't do dish. I'm
gonna clean a straw with a straw thing.

Speaker 3 (49:54):
I gonna carry one around in a little case and
have that be your straw wherever you go.

Speaker 1 (49:57):
I don't think so now, I just don't think so.
And I want to be that girl. I love the
feeling of a metal straw because it cools it even more,
you know, it's like exciting. So Belser is sitting pondering
at his desk and he's like, what makes a purp
a purp? And Stabler goes, I don't care, and I
love that and I love that. Yeah, Belzer's like, you know,

(50:20):
bringing up frontal lobes and maybe he was abused, and
Stabler again goes, I don't care.

Speaker 4 (50:26):
Like I don't care.

Speaker 1 (50:26):
He heard a lot of kids, and that's all I
care about, no matter what your lobe is looking like.
And Belzer goes, well, I have something to show you.
And it's a tape and it's a tape of Evan
and he is with a young child and we hear
Larry's voice off camera, and then he moves into camera
and then like he says, the little boy is ready

(50:47):
to start learning. And now finally, Stabler is sitting and
Belzer is like Blair Witch in a corner and leaning
on file cabinets, and the little boy goes, what are
you doing? And Evan goes, uh is the one abusing.
Evan is doing the abusing. Evan is now abusing the
children in front of Larry, and Stabler is so pained
by this he's gritting his teeth and fuck. Jeffries is like, man,

(51:10):
I feel bad for this guy. What at? Like?

Speaker 4 (51:12):
What else? What are we gonna do?

Speaker 1 (51:13):
And Benson's screams that are like, what do you mean
we were ready to kill Holts when we saw the video.
And it's Jeffries, Benson, Craigan, and Munch and they're all
in Craigan's office debating like, yeah, he's both a victim
and an abuser. Now what And if Evan hurts another kid,
then that's going to be on us, And Craigan says,
the law that binds Holts also binds Evan. It's the
same laws. And I really like the way I like

(51:36):
a lot of the ways these people are speaking in
this episode, So yeah.

Speaker 3 (51:41):
But I also feel like there is a coercive element
to what's happening to Evan. Even when he is committing
the crime, he is being coerced by a lifelong a
person who abused him for years, So it seems to
me like he's not fully responsible.

Speaker 1 (52:02):
No, but I'm like I forgot how the what was
the case with the van where it's like this boy
was sold to this guy and was lessed in the
van and then they would kidnap kids together. He's still
got like the prison sentence even if your court, like
I you know what I mean, I don't know, like.

Speaker 4 (52:16):
I think he needs help.

Speaker 3 (52:18):
I just think it's like it's like when you are
in an abusive household and like and someone hurts a
child and like they they they're like mad at the
mother and the mother gets a more horrible sentence for
not doing anything to help, and it's like she's living
as a prisoner in an abusive household though in a
lot of ways like and like and has been traumatized

(52:39):
beyond belief, you know, like this kid has been traumatized
so badly that like I do think it's like very
very prescient of the show as usual to bring something
like this up in season one of like what does
make an abuse or look at the cycle of abuse, Like, yes,
we can't just say it's just guys fucking committing crimes,
and that can be true, but in this case, it's like,

(53:00):
this is a guy kid who's been so badly abused
for years by somebody that he trusted more than anybody,
and now of course it's the cycle has been perpetuated.

Speaker 1 (53:09):
You know, you're right though, Like him being in the
room on that video, Yeah, like if he was I guess.

Speaker 4 (53:15):
Evan alone being like this is how you teach.

Speaker 1 (53:18):
It was like the guy said, okay, time to do
what you were told, And like it might even be
before he even saw the video that he even knew
that was like a bad thing to do to someone,
you know what I mean. It's like when you condition
someone so young, they're like, oh, this is what learning
piano lessons is. You know well, yeah, because I haven't
said he thought he didn't have a choice. Yeah, he

(53:38):
didn't have a choice to quit the lessons.

Speaker 3 (53:40):
He didn't have a choice to not molest this little
boy when he was prompted, like I don't know, don't.

Speaker 1 (53:45):
You didn't even know he was abused really until the
detectives showed him that tape.

Speaker 3 (53:48):
Yes, that's what I'm saying, like it awakened this whole thing.
Like so I don't know in less and again they're right,
if he does go on to abuse other people, he
doesn't need help. I just don't know that, Like jail
time is necess Sarah know.

Speaker 1 (54:01):
But the trauma to the children he did do it on,
or that one child on the tape, It's like if
I were that kid's parents, I don't care what happened
to Evan or not, or who was in the room.
It's like, you molested my kid, right, Yeah, the trauma's
been done. Yeah, even if we feel bad for him,
I mean it really being poor sucks, like we should

(54:23):
help everyone.

Speaker 4 (54:24):
We should help people to not be poor.

Speaker 1 (54:27):
And then.

Speaker 3 (54:29):
I don't know, well, just to not repeat cycles of
abuse as well, you know, just like this kid, if
he even knew what had happened to him, or had
had any resources or a mother that wasn't just like
smoking newports and being like, oh, my kid just plays
piano all day.

Speaker 4 (54:43):
Like if he had kicks him out, he kicks him out. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (54:48):
Yeah, So like if he had any support, he would
have eventually he would have probably at some point figured
out that what was happening to him was criminal, and
he would and maybe he wouldn't have kept doing he
wouldn't have gone on to do it himself.

Speaker 4 (55:01):
But yeah, and depending on the quality of the school.

Speaker 1 (55:03):
It's like, did any teacher notice anything right, like change
in his behavior or demeanor?

Speaker 4 (55:09):
And you know, like you need smaller classes.

Speaker 1 (55:12):
It's all just so interconnected, and I feel like we're
always just looking at everything on its own when it's
this huge, connected, fucking thing. I actually had a conversation
with my father, who's you know, eighty seven, but he
was like, we were talking about job Corp and it ending,
and like how it's so fucked up because you know,

(55:36):
it's like kids in the foster care system they get
to join job Core and they have a place to
live and a school and they can learn a trade
and then they like have resources, and this administration just
ended it abruptly, so all these kids have nowhere to go,
they have no resources, they have no training. And then
I was like, and then they're on the street, and
I'm like, and then they make homelessness illegal. And then
my dad before and this is where I was going,

(55:57):
But my dad goes but what is it about, Jane,
Why do they want to keep putting people in jail?

Speaker 4 (56:02):
And I go, well, Dad, that's a great question.

Speaker 1 (56:04):
I go, well, it's a private prison and people make money,
and then these people can't vote, and then they're doing
you know, labor in it, and it's like slave labor
in these jails, and like, so they're getting like labor
out of these people. They're getting them to stop voting,
and I'm like, and they're making money off and prisoning them.
And then but so you just think about like, oh,
these free loading kids, right or whatever evil people think.

(56:27):
But how it's all just so connected. Yeah, if these
kids had a better school, better resources, had food to eat, whatever,
if their parents had more resources, like all of these things,
and I don't, I just can. It is just so
connected and having resources and kids being edgy, all of it.
It's just like so upsetting that it's all deemed in
these separate little Yeah. I just feel like having the

(56:50):
guy on the video, like he would have had a
case for like coercion or something.

Speaker 3 (56:55):
But you know, I'm not writing the episode, so it's
my degree from the Law and Order sv University, and
so now he's unfortunately demoted from the marble room to
the cement room bars and Evan's talking and Larry said,
Jonathan didn't feel the music. Oh, can you play a
piece of music about longing if you've never felt that?

Speaker 1 (57:17):
And it's how Evan learned how to play. So that's that.
And Sabler's like, so what are you going to do
with your talent now? It's like, okay, things are bad enough.
Stabler like, you don't have to fucking remind him he's
not going to be able to play piano. And then
Stabler asked how many times did it happen? And Evan goes,
only once, that's the truth, and I deserve to be punished.

(57:38):
And he's like, I will test the fight tomorrow. You
can arraign me. They're like, no, we're willing to make
a deal. We can make a deal. And Stabler and
Craigan are in a walk and talk and they're kind
of like stuck in the middle of all this and
none of it is clear, and Stabler says Evan had
a choice and he committed a crime, and Craigan goes, sure,
and we're cops and we will deal with it, and like,

(57:59):
what's eating? What eating at you, you know, and it's
little Evan, Like what choice did little Evan.

Speaker 4 (58:04):
Have in all of this? And it's like.

Speaker 1 (58:08):
You're thinking about that kid, but what about the kid
that was abused? You know, It's like they're all little kids.
So now we're in court, we're talking about bail. They
choose not to put him in prison overnight because the
stress of that might fuck up with him testifying. So
the judge puts him in a motel. Stabler's with him,
and Evan goes, do you hate me? And Sablor says,
I don't hate you. Sablor says, what happened to you

(58:30):
is terrible, and I tries seeing that little child being abused,
only Evan cuts him off and now you see me
as an abuser, and you know, And then Sailor's going
through his bag because he's going to be in the
motel with Evan, and like the kids snuck Christmas book
into the bag because you know, they want Christmas, and
Evan touches it and tries to read from it, and

(58:50):
Stabler snatches that book away from him, and Evan lowers
his head in shame. And now Evan is on the
stand hole is crying like damn the betrayal of you.

Speaker 4 (59:00):
It's like, you're a criminal. I hate you.

Speaker 1 (59:01):
And then finally at the end, the judge is like, well,
we've heard from everybody, dude, do you want to say something,
And the lawyer goes no, no, no, no, no, he does not.
I'm sure he would just get hard on the stand
with his fucking beady little eyes, so that the judge says, look,
I've read everything and seen everything. Nothing indicates that you
feel any remorse, and so I'm not gonna be lenient
in any way. Note by note, you eroded the hope

(59:24):
from every child in your charge. You stole from them,
you stole from this community. Good judge. He gets one
hundred and fifteen years the max the law allows, and
uh yeah, bye, bitch. She's being taken away, and Evan's shocked, like,
oh my god, that long. But he'll be available for
parol in thirty eight years. And Evan still feels like

(59:45):
really guilty about this because this guy's really old. And
Larry smiles at Evan before he's taken to prison, and
it's a really creepy smile. And we go talk to
the dad of the boy Evan molested who's like, my
son is down to testify, and I want Evan punished
to see. That's what I mean, Like, yeah, if your
kid was molested, you kind of don't care what someone's
story is. So then they say he's pleading guilty and

(01:00:10):
he'll be on probation heavily supervised. So they explain to
the dad like, you know, Evan's gonna plead guilty and
then we'll have him on probation and he'll be heavily supervised.
And the dad goes, no, my son is the victim,
and stabler goes, no, I know, but it's you know, Larry.
It goes back to him, and the dad goes, I
want justice, not special laws for special people.

Speaker 4 (01:00:30):
I don't give a fuck.

Speaker 1 (01:00:32):
And Evan's in a suit and tie, he's in cement
room bars and he's you know, he got into Juilliard.
We find out he got into Juilliard, so that stinks,
and the judge refuses to make a deal with him,
which I think makes sense. Like I said, but he's
only going to jail for one to three years, which
I think like helps with the sadness we feel for

(01:00:53):
this character. But it is a bummer that he got
into Juilliard again, like you fuck up his own and
then you we wave.

Speaker 4 (01:01:00):
The envelope in his face.

Speaker 1 (01:01:01):
Yeah, but anyway, so with trial, like but with trial,
his lawyer says, we won't get the max, so like,
we'll just take back our plea deal, you know, like
I bet in court we'll get enough sympathy to be
able to get probation and we'll get what we want.
Why would we agree to this max sentence? And then
Evan says, no, Jonathan can't go through that, and so

(01:01:23):
he goes, whatever, I'll be in jail for you three years.
I deserve it. Evan says, I don't know what made
Holt the way he is, but I do know why
I am the way I am.

Speaker 4 (01:01:31):
And it stops here now.

Speaker 1 (01:01:34):
And he looks out the bar windows and that's stickwolf baby. Also,
do we assume that Holt was not also molesting this
little boy, the one he's the Yeah, he's the one
of the pictures, right, m hmm, yeah, like he definitely is.

Speaker 4 (01:01:51):
So I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:01:53):
The dad is like getting justiced for the guy who
molested his son, probably multiple multiple times, and then he
really wants the guy who did it one time.

Speaker 1 (01:02:00):
I'm also to get jail time. It just, uh, who's
also a victim?

Speaker 4 (01:02:06):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:02:07):
I mean, yeah, not to keep bring up my dad,
but I did just spend a lot of time with
my family. But we were talking about how like he also,
we don't know where he gets information, so take this
with a grain of salt. But he was just saying
how he read about like a family whose son unfortunately
died in a drunk driving collision, like a drunk driver
hit him, and the guy offered them like thirty million

(01:02:28):
dollars like he was like a rich guy, and it's
like it was like, I'll just settle with you. Guys, like,
let me just settle with you, and the family went,
we don't want your money.

Speaker 4 (01:02:35):
We want you to go to jail.

Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
And my dad was confused about like why they wouldn't
just take the money, and I go, it's about justice, dad,
I go, they didn't want the money. They wanted like
a suffering and he he just didn't get it. But
I don't know, like your kid's dead, you want the
person in trouble like you want I don't know, right, yeah,
because you don't want to be bought off when your

(01:02:57):
child's dead, like what are you gonna but thirty million?

Speaker 4 (01:03:00):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:03:00):
Again, I don't know where these numbers came from. Who
this is? Is this real? I'm not sure.

Speaker 4 (01:03:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:03:06):
I just wonder if like someone came to me and
they were like, oh, your son's piano teacher has been
your kids piano teacher has been molesting them, and then
one of their other students that they molested from your
son's age to into adulthood one time was also coerced
into doing it as well.

Speaker 4 (01:03:23):
I feel like my anger would mostly be towards Holt.

Speaker 1 (01:03:25):
But again, it's a television show, Okay. So here's what's
crazy when you Obviously, we have a bunch of different
places where we find out where crimes are from, but
a lot of times we use the law and order
fandom Wikipedia, and they say, based on a reported Brooklyn

(01:03:47):
case involving a piano teacher who gave free lessons to
underprivileged children in order to videotape himself molesting them, that
word for word.

Speaker 3 (01:03:54):
Is written multiple times all around the internet. But I
cannot find a case where that actually happened.

Speaker 4 (01:04:00):
I can't.

Speaker 3 (01:04:01):
What I did find are two cases kind of close
to each other in the late nineties, right as this
because this is from the first season, right as the
show was kicking off, and I think it might be
like a little bit of a maybe a little bit
of a combo of the cases. So I will start
with this first one. This is from nineteen ninety seven.

(01:04:24):
On April eighteenth of nineteen ninety seven, at Intermediate School
two four six in two forty six in Flatbush, the
Flatbush neighborhood of Brooklyn, a janitor said he tried to
get into the school's music room, but there was a
desk pushed up against the door. When he finally pushed through,
he saw a forty one year old music teacher, Michael Williams,

(01:04:46):
and a thirteen year old female eighth grader with her
skirt up over her waist.

Speaker 4 (01:04:51):
After what he.

Speaker 3 (01:04:52):
Saw, the janitor went to the principal right away, and
then that is where the story diverges. The principal, whose
name was l Winfield, says that the janitor told him
we've got a problem or something like that, but that
he never got into details or something. But then the
janitor goes, no, no, I said, I told the principle
to misconduct, and the principle told me to put it

(01:05:13):
in writing, which the janitor refused to do.

Speaker 4 (01:05:16):
I don't know why, but who knows.

Speaker 3 (01:05:19):
The janitor could have had a million reasons why he
didn't want to write a report, but he said this
is what I saw to the principle on May ninth.

Speaker 4 (01:05:28):
That's three weeks later.

Speaker 1 (01:05:29):
Three weeks have gone by where nothing has happened since
this janitor has witnessed this. May ninth, the janitor decides
to call Edward F. Stansick, who is the Special Commissioner
of Investigation for City Schools in New York. And then
five days later, on May fourteenth, stansik Is and his
investigators interviewed the janitor, who reports what he saw and

(01:05:49):
he did this with the principal present, and the principle
was like, that's not what happened.

Speaker 4 (01:05:54):
Whatever.

Speaker 3 (01:05:54):
But two days later they asked Winfield to remove Williams
and re the teacher, reassign him, but the principal refused
until he got allegations in writing from San Sik's office.
So super cool, principle definitely not covering for a fucking
pedophile teacher that's on his staff. So the teacher was

(01:06:15):
permitted to stay at the school that Friday, May sixteenth, Monday,
and Tuesday May nineteenth and twentieth, all after he kind
of knows he's being investigated. On Tuesday the twentieth, the
teacher confronts the student. He's pissed and he's under investigation.
He's he's confronting the student. It's like you were there
also when you were both there when a janitor walked

(01:06:37):
in on what you were doing. So why why you're
blaming her for somehow being behind It is insane? And
the teacher takes off on the twenty of the twentieth
Tuesday the twentieth, to his home in toby Hana, Pennsylvania,
which is in the Poconos. So if you know anything
about the geography of this area, that is very far.

(01:06:58):
Williams taught music at that school for ten years and
traveled one hundred miles by bus every day to get there.

Speaker 1 (01:07:04):
Yeah that's a pedophile. Yeah, he's in it. He's working
hundred miles by bus. What is that three hours each way?
That's what I'm trying to hold on. I want to
know the answer to this.

Speaker 3 (01:07:13):
Let me go to Okay, there must be some stops Flatbush, Brooklyn.

Speaker 4 (01:07:17):
Okay, this is insane.

Speaker 1 (01:07:19):
It's literally over one hundred miles. It's two and a
half hours each way driving. I can't even imagine if
you're taking the bus, that has to be four hours
where you're taking a greyhound.

Speaker 4 (01:07:30):
Did he stay in the city right.

Speaker 3 (01:07:31):
In two They said he did this every day, and
this is one way, Like I don't understand. They said
he did this every day in the article that I
read in the New York Times.

Speaker 1 (01:07:40):
So because we my favorite art teacher ever in elementary school.
She lived in Indiana, but then during the week she
stayed at her sister's house in the city and on
the weekends went back to spend time with her husband.

Speaker 4 (01:07:50):
Like we asked the questions, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:07:52):
This says I traveled one hundred miles by bus every
day to get there, and that must be one hundred
miles home as well. So I have no idea. But
a lot of students like knew this guy Williams. He
taught musical instrument lessons as well as voice lessons, and
a lot of students like couldn't believe that he was
capable of what he was accused of, you know, But
they discovered through their investigation that Williams and this student

(01:08:14):
had been having quote unquote sexual relations since January of
that year, which is old nineties journalism. Why of saying
she was being sexually abused since January? Instead they act
like an eighth grader is having like a cute, little
fun affair with her teacher.

Speaker 1 (01:08:29):
Just reading something and it said the woman was a teenager.

Speaker 4 (01:08:33):
The teen was teen so yeah, so gross. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:08:38):
And so they also found out that Williams had gotten
a permission slip from her parents to you know, help
bolster his crimes. Like he basically was like, oh no,
I got a permission slip for parents said she's allowed
to be here.

Speaker 4 (01:08:52):
So he and he eventually two days.

Speaker 3 (01:08:54):
Later, after he fled back to his home after he
you know, verbally assaulted the girl he'd been assaulting for months,
he turned himself into investigators two days later, on May
twenty second, ninety seven, and he was charged with second
degree sodomy, second degree sexual abuse, and endangering the welfare
of a child. The New York Times writes in this article, quote,
If convicted of the sodomy charge, the most serious of

(01:09:16):
the charges, mister Williams faces up to seven years in prison.

Speaker 4 (01:09:20):
End quote. Why is that the most serious charge.

Speaker 3 (01:09:22):
Why is that a stronger charge than second degree sexual abuse,
like sodomy?

Speaker 1 (01:09:28):
Like it's just that to me? Is so the puritanical
old homophobia. Yeah, I was gonna say, like old laws
of our country. But the principal obviously did come under
fire for not reassigning the teacher after he heard the allegations,
which he really should have done immediately, but the principal
claimed he never heard specific allegations from the janitor, So

(01:09:49):
he's like, I didn't do anything wrong, of course, professional dumbass.
Then New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani, who, if you'll
remember Borat got him to take his pants off on
a fucking in a movie that was released nationwide internationally.
He's an idiot. Never forget four seasons Cleaners. He tried
to use this case as.

Speaker 3 (01:10:10):
An excuse for letting NYPD handle security in New York
City public schools, which the school chancellor did not want
to happen. So he was like, you know, this custodial
worker might have felt much more comfortable reporting that incident
to a cop than to his boss. And it's like
why why would like why are you acting like everybody
feels much more comfortable talking to the cops. You know,

(01:10:30):
like this janitor did the right thing, he told his boss,
and his boss did nothing. This is not a good
excuse for you to, you know, deputize the NYPD into
New York City schools.

Speaker 4 (01:10:43):
He's a fucking idiot, Rudy Giuliani.

Speaker 3 (01:10:45):
So honestly, I cannot find what happened as the results
of this case.

Speaker 4 (01:10:51):
I Cannot'm assuming nothing.

Speaker 1 (01:10:53):
Yeah, Like I can't find whether Michael I mean, the
name Michael Williams is like so common, but I also
just can't find I looked him up in lookups, Like,
I just cannot find whether he was Like, I'm sorry,
that's a red flag. You can't get a job in
the Poconos. You can't move to Flatbush. What's going on here? Yeah,
what do you mean? You're driving one hundred miles per

(01:11:15):
bus back and forth every single day. It's a teach band.
You're a h h yeah, no, no, no, no no.
There's just also a lot of guys named Michael Williams
who have committed crimes and molestation crime specifically, So it's
really hard.

Speaker 4 (01:11:30):
There's like Michael L. Williams and Michael W.

Speaker 3 (01:11:33):
Williams, like there's just so many, so I don't know
what they're This guy actually got convicted or served time.
I would imagine he somehow was like the janitor didn't
see what he saw or something, and maybe he got
off but very the movie election, yes, and hopefully he
didn't get his get to teach again, but who knows.

(01:11:56):
And then the next crime that I found, which was
impossible to find stuff about, like impossible, I found a
blog that had.

Speaker 4 (01:12:08):
A ton of the credit articles. What could we use blogs?
Is that a credible source?

Speaker 5 (01:12:13):
Well?

Speaker 4 (01:12:13):
Really secret here.

Speaker 3 (01:12:15):
In this blog post which I'm I'm putting in my
sources in this blog post, there is they have word
for word copy and pasted articles that were on the
internet about this case. And I know that because some
of them are New York Times, and so I ended
up being able to find those in like the way
like way back, but some of them are from like
the Bergen County Record and newspapers that have now folded

(01:12:36):
into other newspapers and are now at newspapers dot Com,
and I have to get a subscription and then pour
through like it's not as searchable. So I was like,
I'm not going to do all that, but I am
assuming that this blog copy and pasted since they copy
and pasted correct information from the New York Times, that
they copy and pasted correct information from the Bergen Record

(01:12:56):
that said I could be incorrect, but I'm prefacing it
right now now. But it seems like everything is correct,
and you'll see why. It's not like there's a lot
of wild allegations here. So basically, this is the case
of Samuel s Astor. In nineteen ninety nine, literally months
before SVU premiered, a music teacher was held on one

(01:13:17):
million dollar bail in Bergen County, New Jersey for allegedly
assaulting a young girl who was his piano student. He
was sixty years old Samuel s Astor. He was arrested
in early June after an eight year old student of
his told her parents that he had abused her during
a lesson at his home in t Neck, New Jersey.
He was charged with aggravated sexual assault and endangering the

(01:13:37):
welfare of a minor. He taught music at Manhattan College.
He had a wife and a grown son at the time,
like a twenty something year old son. Investigators believed that
there could be other victims, possibly from the Orthodox Jewish community,
which Astor was a member, and in searching his home,
investigators eventually found videotapes of Astra assaulting other students.

Speaker 4 (01:14:01):
So he did tape these things?

Speaker 1 (01:14:03):
Well yeah, because then, yeah, it's because I'm thinking like
with power and property, or like having a piano teacher
and like authority, all of that, but then to add
like a close knit religious community, to like an added
thing of secrecy and trust. And they couldn't even like
question people because I think the day they brought him
in was like the Sabbath, and they were like, well,

(01:14:23):
we're not even gonna be able to get to some
of these witnesses until tomorrow, you know, or possible victims.
So they, like I said, they found all these tapes.
The tapes were all appeared to have been secretly recorded
by the teacher, not like hey, I'm gonna tape you
so we can work on your hand technique or anything
like that. And of course that led them to question
several other children. Another eight year old victim was quickly identified,

(01:14:44):
and by June of nineteen ninety nine June twenty third
of nineteen ninety nine, five more victims had been identified,
totaling seven girls between the ages of eight and thirteen
years old, and I was looking everywhere for like, what happened,
what happened to this guy? And the answer is nothing,
beca because he took his own life on November second
of nineteen ninety nine.

Speaker 4 (01:15:03):
He was found hanging in.

Speaker 3 (01:15:04):
His home with a plastic bag over his head, and
he left a note, but they did not publicize what
was in the note.

Speaker 4 (01:15:11):
And this shot, I want to know.

Speaker 3 (01:15:14):
I know this got a tiny bit of news attention
because he was the second teacher in two weeks in
that county to take their own life after being accused
of molesting a student. So like in a two week span,
there was him in this other teacher that was and
they both took their lives. And so the information about
the videotapes was in the Bergen County Record, like all

(01:15:35):
this stuff, and it's all a lot of it as
I found some of the original articles, but then some
of the ones I just couldn't find and that, but
it all seems kind of like it fits together.

Speaker 1 (01:15:47):
You know. I wonder if they like changed the app
or yeah, this is later in the season, like it
could have happened weeks right before the Yeah, and so
if somebody like saw that because I wanted to do
like a New York show.

Speaker 4 (01:15:57):
I feel like, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:16:00):
And this happened in New Jersey, but was featured in
the Metro section of New York Times, which is happening
in the Tri state area. So I think they could
have seen this about the piano teacher and then said, okay,
but let's change it to this and then like the
victim becomes the molesterer. Is definitely like a thing, because
you know, Season one is prenial Bear, so I don't

(01:16:21):
know how much medical journaling we're doing. But yeah, So
those are the two stories I found. I could not
find anybody like. And again, this is not underprivileged as
far as I know. I'm hearing that this is the
Orthodox Jewish community in t Neck, which, as far as
I know, even in the nineties, was not an underprivileged area.
That doesn't mean that this guy was not targeting some

(01:16:44):
underprivileged people, but I think it's like what you're saying,
targeting people in an insular community. We've seen that before
on this show. But if there is a music teacher
in Brooklyn who was serving underprivileged kids and doing it
exactly this episode, I could not find it. I found
a story of another music teacher, but he was not
arrested until two thousand and three, so it was years

(01:17:05):
after the show, so that wasn't about him. So yeah,
another scary case of sview, just kind of like playing
out before something happens in real life.

Speaker 1 (01:17:16):
Also, being a parents insane. You're one day you're like, oh, yeah,
my kid wants to play piano. The next day, I know, molestation,
I know. And yeah, so I guess your kids aren't
playing piano. They're they're not my mom My. Mom's really
pushing for it. She's really pushing for it. But also, yeah,

(01:17:41):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:17:42):
I don't know. I don't know any I don't know anything.
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:17:45):
I think I worry about it, but I'm also like,
I will die if I just worry about this constantly.
But let's get onto our guests, because we have a
iconic guest. Our guest today is an actor best known

(01:18:07):
for his role as Angel in the original Broadway run
of Rent, for which he won a Tony Award for
Best Actor.

Speaker 4 (01:18:14):
Featured in a Musical.

Speaker 3 (01:18:15):
But you know him today as the piano prodigy and
victim turned abuser Evan. Please enjoy our chat with the
lovely Wilson Jermaine Heredia.

Speaker 4 (01:18:24):
Oh, I mean, our listeners are gonna go insane.

Speaker 1 (01:18:27):
This is huge. We're very thrilled you're here.

Speaker 5 (01:18:30):
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 3 (01:18:31):
I mean I texted my best friend this morning, who
has two Rent tattoos on her body, and she was
like an icon like you. I mean, I have like
all of Angel's songs on my mixtapes from high school.

Speaker 1 (01:18:44):
Like it's that's fantastic to be able to talk to you,
so exciting. Did you watch that so much?

Speaker 4 (01:18:51):
Yeah? Did you rewatch it?

Speaker 5 (01:18:53):
No? No, I haven't rewatched it. I because I've for
a long time I used it. It was still it
was on my reel until about I don't know, about
five years ago because it was such a good it
was it was like it was my first TV episodic ever,
uh and where I got to cut my teeth on

(01:19:14):
it and for a while, and just because I was
just lazy about about redoing my reel. So I've always
seen bits of it and friends throughout the years they
would say like, oh my god, I didn't know you
went on this. You won on a SVU And I
was like, yep, the first season and Uh, yeah, so

(01:19:34):
I've seen it's it's surprisingly fresh in my mind, like
not super like I can't give you all the details,
but it's very very fresh in my mind.

Speaker 3 (01:19:44):
Yeah, because I was gonna say, I just looked up
it actually came out May twelve, two thousand, so like
just over twenty five years to the day pretty much. Yeah,
And we're talking to you, so we always appreciate when
somebody from the earlier seasons comes on to talk about
show they made two decades ago. So we appreciate you,
and we would love to hear anything you remember. I mean,

(01:20:05):
like so you were, like you remember, you were more
of like a Broadway baby doing all this stuff, winning
a Tony, and then you got this. I know there's
a couple other things on your IMDb before this, but
like you said, your first episode of episodic, how did
it like all come about?

Speaker 5 (01:20:19):
Well, you know, just just through the regular channels. I
auditioned for it. I was auditioning for other stuff before,
and and I was trying to figure out like what,
I'm a very strange well even even still now, even
now that I'm a little bit more burly, I'm a
strange fit. Uh and and finding the right thing to

(01:20:41):
be cast in, and even the thing, even anything that
I was really truly interested in, because you know, casting
directors and directors and producers, I mean, they can still
like if you're not really super super super super into
it and you're just auditioning to audition, they could just
read right through it. And so that that reads through
all that this particular audition when I first read it,

(01:21:03):
and this is like back in the day where you
actually had to go to the agency to pick up
the sides rather than have the sides that delivered to
you via email. You had to go. Sometimes they would
deliver it to you, but you had to go and
pick it up. And so you have to be really
really invested. And I read it and I thought, I

(01:21:24):
can really like this, I can really do this. This
is right up my alley and I already had it
planned in my head, and I live in the Upper
East Side. And I also have discovered then and even
now and even as far as the method that I

(01:21:47):
used to audition for rent, is that the less you
really and it sounds kind of messed up, but the
less you really care about it, meaning as in like
not not as in like you don't care about it
at all, meaning that that you just kind of throw
caution to the wind, you know what I mean, like
like you just like you know what I'm going to do,

(01:22:08):
what I'm going to do. So I guess what I'm
saying is that you don't overthink it. You just kind
of go in and just do your thing. So I
went in there with with my idea of what Evan
was and how Evan spoke and how and I was
already in that place, and I remember kind of going like, uh,

(01:22:29):
what was I get it? I get it, you know
not you know, I laid it all out there and
I had it. Just there was this particular cadence that
I that I felt that that he had because of
what has happened to him and what he's like. Uh
and uh sort of like an arrested development emotionally kind

(01:22:50):
of kind of character. Uh. And And I went in
there and as far as I was concerned, I was,
I was in the scene, was shooting the scene in there,
and you know, I went in there and and everybody
was out there, everybody, the director, producer, writer, everyone's there,
and it stood my thing and I stood up and uh,

(01:23:13):
I was like, yeah, thanks, I walked out. Back then,
I was a smoker. So the first thing I did
was like it was like take my smoke out. I
was walking, I was walking out. I was one of
those those those people that that had cell phones early on,

(01:23:34):
and uh, I kid you not like on my way
half because it was it was the audition was down
where like where Chelsea Piers, right around that area where
where Chelsea Piers is, and and so those so I've
been down there. I'm pretty sure you have. Is that
those blocks are super long, right, They're super long. So

(01:23:59):
down the very first block halfway through, I got the
phone call and they said like ooh, and they said,
like you got it. Yeah. I was like, wow, I.

Speaker 4 (01:24:10):
Love to hear it.

Speaker 1 (01:24:11):
Once you booked it, then, what was like the shooting, Like,
I mean, it was such a it was like Law
and Order was an established show, but it was the
first season of SVU.

Speaker 3 (01:24:20):
I mean, now it's the longest running live action show.
Season twenty six is wrapping up. But like you were
in the first inaugural season.

Speaker 5 (01:24:27):
Yeah, oh it was. It took it was two weeks,
which I don't know how long episodes take now, but
it was. Yeah, it was about two weeks and you know,
days were long, and I remember thinking, I love this process.

(01:24:49):
I really do love this process. The one thing that
I noted immediately was that you had to have endurance.
It's a different kind of energy and a sort of patience.
It's it challenging for anyone that has gone from from

(01:25:10):
theater to and and where their main thing, and me,
my main thing has always been I started in theater.
It was always what I wanted to do and and uh,
you know, fancied myself doing a lot of indies, but
but never anything big. But I didn't know the process, like,

(01:25:32):
for example, the process of setting up setting up a scene,
like you shoot something and then you shoot a close
up on you, and then you have to shoot the
scene again and then they have to turn it around
on the other person. But you have to stay behind
that camera person for uh, just for sightline, and that

(01:25:53):
takes like sometimes two hours just to turn the camera
around because the lighting and everything. Asked me, and so
I was like, this is something new, this is definitely
something new. So to maintain I understand. And I guess
what I'm getting at is is I've now I understand
rather than I understood like, oh, now I understand like

(01:26:16):
method actors like why why why they do that in
or just to stay in character all day and all
so that way they can be consistent from shot to
shot to shot. Luckily, I have this just manic energy
that he was, like I was on the whole time.
I was ready to go.

Speaker 1 (01:26:34):
Well you're probably excited, absolutely absolutely, and and.

Speaker 5 (01:26:41):
I came away thinking like I can do this. I
can do this on a regular you know, like, HI,
definitely hire me as a seasoned regular for anything. And
I'm and I'm still you know, to this day, I'm
still I'm still looking to see like what what is

(01:27:01):
what is in the cards for me? As far as
that that that that for me is is like my my, Mecca,
my my, it's it's it was like the gig that
I do want. And uh, I mean because you know
you're off on weekends also mean you don't shoot on weekends.
It's it's fantastic. It's it's a it's a what I

(01:27:22):
call the civilized schedule theater. You you you're performing eight
shows a week, you only have one day off, you
have Mondays year, you're working holidays, you're missing everything and
all you and then your whole life is focused on it.
I love theater, though I still like I'm not even
saying that that that I I don't like it, don't

(01:27:44):
want to. I'm just saying that that if if I
can choose, if someone would give me the choice and
say one for one year, would you rather do a
TV show and work thirteen fourteen hour days and then
have like, you know, a couple of months off and
then go back or worked that whole year through recently

(01:28:07):
of Monday and and and and drain yourself completely. I would.
I would do that, And and I came away just
super excited about the process. And yeah it was. It
was a lot a lot of fun, A lot of
fun it was. And and they were great there too,

(01:28:30):
no horror st always, no divas, nothing, it was it was.
It was a great production. It was a great crew,
it was great director, it was it was a lot
of fun.

Speaker 1 (01:28:41):
Well, because it was season one, I bet they also
still had the level of excitement too, you know, like
now everyone says it's a well oiled machine, but I
bet they were all jazz to to get those jobs
and like be on set. Yeah, wonderful the extra But
then the episode so dark yeah, I know, and your

(01:29:01):
character is kind of quiet, you know, they really have
to pull so much out from him.

Speaker 5 (01:29:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's there were a lot of there
were a lot of scenes. I mean there was there
was there was that excitement, but there was also that
that energy of of what the subject matter is about,
and and how disturbing all of it was, and and
so you know, you had to make sure to lighten

(01:29:28):
up when when when the director would say cut, and
and there was that. Mariska was great. I love love
Chris's energy as well, Like I I'm just sort of
in love with with this whole body of work in general,
and and and how versatile he is and and just

(01:29:53):
very very supportive.

Speaker 1 (01:29:54):
I mean, your Wikipedia does not have a lot of
information about you in terms of like it says you
grew up in New York, But then like how did
you get into that?

Speaker 4 (01:30:02):
Were you doing that in high school? Were you like
discover your theater? Like how were you just like a god?

Speaker 5 (01:30:09):
I wish man? I wanted to. I wanted to. I
went to actually college not not far away from mcguard
I went to Hunter. I went about it in I
got to the theater or to acting in a roundabout way.
But I was always I was always a performer of
some sort or I was and I was definitely definitely

(01:30:29):
one artist. I was visual artists ever since. You know,
I remember really seriously taking drawing very very seriously, went
to art school. Was always the center of attention in
house parties. Dancing became sort of semi professional dancer, dancing

(01:30:54):
for for if you remember freestyle, the music freestyle. I
was dancing for a couple of freestyle groups. Went to Brazil.
Uh did that so I I I knew that's what
I wanted to do. But I was studying medicine and
that that's what my that's what my parents want me
to do. I mean, they're the Dominican immigrants, and so

(01:31:15):
they they like and and it isn't like like they
didn't have any faith in me. It's like they just
knew that it was a very hard world and they
didn't want they they their opinion was that you didn't
come here to to to bust our humps. So that
way we can watch our son Uh go into a career.

(01:31:37):
And he's particularly a person of color, and and we
don't see anyone of color get to the higher echelons,
get to the get to the A list, and so
go to school, get your get your toma, become a
doctor all that. So the reason that it all really
came about was just because I was I was so
and still am interested in science and biology and and

(01:32:00):
how the body worked and so. But then you know,
you get manipulated by your parents say that's what you
want to be. You want to be a doctor? Was like,
and then you do at school, yes, and and that
that continues on. So I went to a vocational high
school and became a medical assistant, and so worked in
several hospitals, clinics and the whole thing. And so I'm
really good and I'm really good at that job. I

(01:32:20):
was really really good. I just but I just knew
this is not who I am. This is not the
or rather, this is not the entirety of of who
I am. It's just like it's like the full opposite. Yeah, yeah,
And I I remember being asked once what my parents
felt when they saw me in drag and I'm like,

(01:32:42):
that's the wrong question. The question you should be asking
me is what I said, or rather what what what
they said when I said I'm not going to be
a doctor. I'm not going to medical school. That completely
shattered them. Uh and and they said, uh, you know,

(01:33:04):
you're on your own. And I told them this. When
I graduated high school went to me. They expected me
to go straight into into you know, headlong into studying
medicine and start the prep. But I said, like, you know,

(01:33:25):
that's that's not who I am. And let's just face it,
you guys know that's not who I am. Your question
is how did I start? I had to lie. I
had to first lie my first like dancing gig and
all that. I had to lie to my parents say
like it's I mean, technically it was sort of like
a half lie. I said, like I'm I'm I'm going

(01:33:45):
for a job interview, and it was it was actually
an audition to dance for this group. And then you know,
I just my whole life that from that time, like
even before that, all I was doing is either dancing, drawing, writing,
That's what I was doing. And and by the time

(01:34:07):
that I got to I mean, I went to two
colleges and I went to to one to New York
City Tech to for for art and design. I took
off a semester trying to figure out what I wanted
to do, what school I wanted to go to, and
ended up at Hunter College and I started taking dance
classes there. I felt still at that time, I knew

(01:34:31):
that I was again I was going to end up
on a stage as as a theater performer, but not
yet I was. I was really really working on on
my dance career. And I both both my ham shrinks
in two different occasions because I was a club kid
and I battled. I battled, and I mean that's what

(01:34:56):
clubs were for me. People would go, you know, other
people maybe have a different perspective or what they had experience,
whether drinking or dancing or whatever, or rather like socializing.
For me and my group of people, it was literally
it was like a movie. It was. It was going

(01:35:19):
in seeing the middle of the dance floor open up
and then battling and making your bones and making your
that is that is what we did that and that's how.
I mean, that's how how when when I auditioned for rent,

(01:35:42):
the club kid thing, it was like club kit. I
don't have to pretend that I'm a club kid, like
I still am. Like that happened like about four years ago,
you know, so uh that is what I did. And
when I was working at the clinic, my night life
was still that I was still forming and I was
still going to clubs. And so when I pulled my hamstrings,

(01:36:07):
the dance teacher said like, and doctor said, like, you
know for six months, you're not going to be normal
for a while. You know, you're not gonna be able
to dance. Really, it's so long. Yeah, yeah, well hamstrings,
you know, the tendon takes takes a while. And I
was like, what am I going to do? It's like
six months to me? And you know, for a twenty

(01:36:27):
what twenty twenty year old? Twenty yeah, twenty year old?
Six months is a long time for a twenty year old,
it feels it feels like it's years.

Speaker 1 (01:36:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:36:39):
So a friend of mine said, you know, why don't
you well, since you can't take the dance classes anymore,
it's going to be useless for you being in there,
why don't you just audit the acting one oh one class.
And that's what I did. I walked into the acting
one o one class and Heather Alurs was the teacher,

(01:37:04):
and within one month, within the month of me being
in that class, I was already in my first off
Broadway play Wow, And I had my equity card. And
because when some and I tell this to everybody, I
teach master classes and and and to anyone that'll have

(01:37:29):
me to both ready to schools and uh, and the
one thing I always tell everybody is like, when something
is meant for you, it's meant for you, and you
know it and there is nothing that's going to stop that.
And uh, that was that was me from the moment

(01:37:52):
that I told my parents, and even before that, it
was more about the recognizing, uh, the coming out of
I'm an artist like and and the way it felt
like was I'm an artist, And then I went, oh,
I'm an artist? What am I going to do to

(01:38:13):
see my life?

Speaker 1 (01:38:17):
Did your parents end up coming to shows?

Speaker 5 (01:38:20):
Some? But I think maybe like one two, they thought
it was a hobby. They thought it was still still
a hobby, a hobby that I They knew that I
was talented and that I was hard working at that,
but they they saw it as a talent. They didn't
see it as a way of really making a living.
I mean it's hard, but a way of They didn't

(01:38:43):
see it as a lifestyle. They just thought as as
a hobby for me. It wasn't It's not a lifestyle
for me. It's it's who I am, It's what I do,
It's it's how I make a living. It's it's how
I see the world.

Speaker 1 (01:38:59):
Uh.

Speaker 5 (01:39:00):
And so when they saw a rent, they were like wow.
For a while, I mean my mom even even my
mom for a while, well that would say like, she's like,
you can't sing. She's like so she would laugh when
I would try to sing. And then after that, I
was still I was still living at home. And but

(01:39:23):
it wasn't like I was living at home the whole
time before I moved out. Then had to come and uh,
I had to come back for a stint and then
and then I was like, okay, I'm just saving money
so that way I can I can leave again. So
in the so opening night did my thing. You had
to do that and come home and get and see

(01:39:45):
my parents, and my Mom's like, boppy, you can sing.
I'm like, I've been trying to tell you that. I'm
We're trying to tell you. I'm trying to tell you
for for a long time. It's it's I just had to,
you know, give me the right material. And uh. And
then the Tonys came and went, and you know, months,

(01:40:08):
I think like maybe four or five months after the Tonys.
My mom goes like, Okay, well, now that you're done
with your hobby and you got your little award, you
can go back to be a doctor right.

Speaker 4 (01:40:19):
Now that you've won a Tony. Oh my god, you.

Speaker 5 (01:40:22):
Can do both, Like Mom, it's it shows like I
don't think you understand like how much energy this takes.
And she she didn't, but uh, but yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:40:34):
When you join rent, like you guys all have gone
on to such amazing careers, Like were you close with
are you close with specific people from that cast?

Speaker 4 (01:40:43):
I saw you all at Redwood.

Speaker 1 (01:40:44):
It's not all of you, but it was Oh yeah,
Adina's new.

Speaker 5 (01:40:48):
Yeah, well not all of us were able to make it.
I'm pretty sure, Like, but we we we still have
a group chat.

Speaker 4 (01:40:54):
The two that have been on the podcast.

Speaker 5 (01:40:56):
Oh yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:40:58):
Yeah, you guys have a group chat.

Speaker 5 (01:41:01):
Yeah yeah, all of us still pretty much. Tay changed
his number, so Tay is the only but he was
on the group chat for a while. We're genuinely, genuinely
family and friends and so, you know, and we talked
to you know, some people talk to each other more
than others. But but since Jesse started his new show,

(01:41:23):
I I I hear from him less, but we but
we check. We chat quite a bit.

Speaker 3 (01:41:30):
We do any last minute tidbits that you remember from
the set, like uh or anything you want to prom
or Sepher Maloney throwing up piece of pie at someone
at Craft Services.

Speaker 4 (01:41:43):
I don't know that was that was bad improv. I
couldn't think of anything.

Speaker 5 (01:41:47):
When when they show me the video of of me
getting raped and and it's just me and my reaction
shot if you remember, there's a set when I go
like what's this? What's this? Like no, no, no, and
that's when I collapse and I go to the corner
of the room, the floor and I and I go

(01:42:08):
like no no. But the director did in order to
get my reaction. I mean, if he knew, if he
knew where I came from, he would have gotten something
else for me, because what he what he showed me
was like he showed me cow's being slaughtered. Oh but see,
I grew up in Brooklyn and and I've seen I'm

(01:42:29):
I'm not and I'm not kidding about this. Like I've
seen people freshly shot, I have seen people stabbed, I
have seen, so blood is nothing new for me. I
was like, Oh, you need to show me something a
lot more like a lot more fucked up for me
to react like that. So I still had to and
go like, oh that's terrible. Oh Cole's heads being cut

(01:42:49):
off not a big deal. Oh my god, I know
that's so messed up. It shows you, like how I
grew up. Yeah, and then I played Angel, so but
uh yeah, man, yeah, yeah it was it was a blast.
If it was a blast, and and uh yeah, I
hope that they've read. They decide to write Evan back

(01:43:13):
into the show one episode of like you know him
coming back and what happens, like how he how he
pays his step to society.

Speaker 4 (01:43:20):
You know, totally starts helping the department.

Speaker 5 (01:43:23):
Yeah, becomes a cop and becomes a season regular. That's
for you because if my man, I see kid can
be it s for you, right he is he on SVU.

Speaker 3 (01:43:36):
If he for you, he joined the season after you
your your part, then.

Speaker 5 (01:43:42):
Then you know they can they can have me. They
can definitely like write me in right right Evan and
go like you know Evan or you know, he paid
his dues, he went to the Academy.

Speaker 1 (01:43:55):
This thing, or they can have you back as somebody
totally different.

Speaker 4 (01:43:59):
They could have you back.

Speaker 5 (01:44:01):
Who knows again, I look I look different now I'm
a different cat. So you know.

Speaker 4 (01:44:06):
Yeah, oh memoriessh.

Speaker 3 (01:44:13):
You were on our list of guests from the very
beginning in this podcast is four years old, all right,
so we've been really happy to get you.

Speaker 4 (01:44:25):
That was cool. What a fucking icon.

Speaker 1 (01:44:27):
But I also love in the intro to call victim
turned abuser.

Speaker 4 (01:44:31):
That's such a funny thing to put in it. Someone's
so many.

Speaker 3 (01:44:34):
Are so many are We've talked about that in our
on this pod a lot. But I was jazz to
get to talk to him, like I have. My best
friend is such a Rent head. She has like two
Rent tattoos on her body. She was so excited when
we talked to Anthony Rapp And then I messaged her
and was like, we're talking to Angel, Like she used
to make me mixes that had today for you on
the mix.

Speaker 4 (01:44:52):
Like I just Angel was and just loves his fucking craft.

Speaker 1 (01:44:56):
And I just like like talking to people that are
in you know, I have some insight and work hard
and like, have you seen Rent in terms of like
the movie or like or have you stayed on Broadway?
I didn't know, Okay, I like, I just saw the
movie so much. Yeah, the movies not good.

Speaker 4 (01:45:15):
I don't think. I didn't think the movie was good.

Speaker 1 (01:45:19):
But I have to see a Dina Menzel Tree Tree musical.

Speaker 3 (01:45:23):
Oh yeah, but rent on Broadway was so amazing. And
maybe it's just because like I saw it as like
a high schooler and was like it was like so
transformative and awesome and like, but a lot of the
characters are really like selfish and kind of like crazy
New Yorkers, like squatting in buildings and making their dreams
come true and like whatever.

Speaker 4 (01:45:44):
But Angels just like kind of pure hearted and like.

Speaker 3 (01:45:47):
So she's she's definitely like a character in the show
that you're just like everybody loves Angel.

Speaker 4 (01:45:53):
So anyway, love it.

Speaker 1 (01:45:55):
Oh wait, have you seen the discourse on Sabrina Carpenter.

Speaker 4 (01:45:59):
Yeah I I have not, but I spoke about it,
thank God.

Speaker 1 (01:46:03):
Yes, So I know about it, and I think it's
like it's crazy, it's a little bit crazy.

Speaker 4 (01:46:10):
I saw a meme.

Speaker 3 (01:46:10):
I saw a meme that was like, well, I don't know.
I guess I had to hear what you have to think.

Speaker 1 (01:46:14):
I don't like the picture and I don't like that
anyone like what because I didn't know the references. I
didn't know the fifties advertisements, advertisements that it's kind of
like referring to so at first glance, and I feel
like I'm pretty media literate, and what bothers me is
like all the Instagram kind of you know, TikTok, Like
the opinions of it all are very much like because

(01:46:37):
people take things literally and you don't understand, and you
just don't understand, and she is feminist and you're just
this and you're that, and it's like, just because I
don't like something, it doesn't mean I fully don't understand it.
Like then, I saw the fifties ads and I'm taking
it all in. And you're also allowed to like something
and not be into it, even if there's like it's
supposed to be satire. I don't think she nailed it,
Like I'm sorry, it was a swing and a miss

(01:46:58):
for me. I think it's kind of I don't like it.
I don't think it's the worst thing ever I interest,
but I don't like it and I don't but what
is the satire?

Speaker 4 (01:47:07):
It's like, what is.

Speaker 3 (01:47:08):
It well, I didn't know that it was supposed to
be satire or anything.

Speaker 4 (01:47:13):
I thought it was just kind of like a kink.
I thought.

Speaker 3 (01:47:15):
She was just like yeah, I kind of like to
play be like do this like BDSM type thing because
it's it's what's it called again? The album man Man's
Best Friend, Manchild's a song.

Speaker 4 (01:47:30):
I think the album's Man's Best Friend. Oh yeah, that's right.

Speaker 3 (01:47:33):
And people were like immediately going to do I mean,
I was like I was my first take off of
hearing it for two seconds and having to talk about
it on another podcast was just kind of like, well
that feminism is that you can do that if you want.
Like if being treated like a dog is your feminist,
Like is your kink and something that you actually think
is hot, and you like you're allowed to have that.
You're also allowed to God, you're allowed to be a

(01:47:55):
trad wife. You're allowed to not be a trad wife.
You know, like that's that is what feminism is. It's
not just necessarily like saying that it has to be
we all everything has to be impowered, like and you know,
I've been reading people say stuff like everybody knows that
like a submissive in a BDSM relationship has the power
anyway in a way like that's this is like a

(01:48:17):
land that a landscape I'm not super familiar with. But
I was like, I mean, damn, if you're if your
object is just to get people fucking talking and tongues wagon,
you're doing a genius.

Speaker 4 (01:48:27):
I know. I just like it.

Speaker 1 (01:48:28):
The image does make me uncomfortable, and I watch pretty
fucked up porn, I would say, I don't know for
I don't because the people that are like saying there's
more to it, I just that they're like it's satire.
I don't see the satire, but I didn't think about
it in the like kink kind of kink via, So

(01:48:51):
do you let like like just asking what if it
was like a girl's leg holding her hair. I don't know,
just the it does make me uncomfortable because okay, it's
kind of what we talked about with my special when
like it was funny because I asked Netflix like, will
you approve dumb bitch? Yeah, and they go, we love
dumb bitch. We don't like night owl. And I was like,

(01:49:12):
if this was a different era in time, it would
be really fun to call it dumb bitch. But we're
past the time of these things, because it's real when
we're losing rights and we're losing a young generation of
women that aren't going to college or learning and marrying
very young and don't want to expand their brains to
be at home and not knowing the full implications of

(01:49:34):
what happens when you're forty five and maybe don't have
any experience in the workforce or any knowledge all of
these things. So it's like, and I talked about this
on Stradio Lab with gay stuff too, where it's like
it's hard sometimes to make jokes when we're living in
an era that is that is really happening.

Speaker 3 (01:49:54):
That's an interesting argument. Now, that's a very interesting argument,
Like cause to put that album cover coming out at
the time that it's coming out, like if hairs, that's
an a statement.

Speaker 4 (01:50:07):
Yeah, it would everything a statement when you're as famous
as she is.

Speaker 3 (01:50:11):
So yeah, it's not just like cutie baby, like ooh,
isn't this kind of sexy and provocative like you are?
Like that is an argument I had not thought of
because I.

Speaker 4 (01:50:20):
Looked at all the ads and it is fine.

Speaker 1 (01:50:22):
I don't know, but what people other things online I
was saying was like, the spin of this would be
if like she was disrespecting a guy, like if a
guy was on all fours being grabbed by their hair.
But then with the kink element, it's like, yeah, she's
into this, this is great.

Speaker 4 (01:50:40):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:50:40):
The pulling of the hair makes me uncomfortable with the
satire with not whatever she's trying to flip. It's not
flipping because it's happening right now, you know.

Speaker 4 (01:50:50):
What I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:50:50):
Women are being abused and losing their rights. So it's like,
what is the joke, Like I you know what I mean,
Like I don't get it, And then people are like,
why won't anyone leave Sabrina Carboner alone. She's obviously not
for the male gaze, and we talked about this where
I go, she is dressing really provocative, but it is
so girly. She's for the girls, and it's very clear
and obvious, and the lyrics of her songs say that

(01:51:12):
and all of it, And honestly, yeah, I'm into crawling around.

Speaker 4 (01:51:15):
I get that.

Speaker 1 (01:51:16):
I just my brain didn't go there because I was
so uncomfortable with the image and if her goal is
to make people uncomfortable with the violence against women, then
I guess.

Speaker 4 (01:51:26):
She did it.

Speaker 3 (01:51:28):
Yeah, if that was her goal, You're right, I mean
you could read, you could read, you could fucking do
a college course on this, Like this is like the
semiotics of this image, like what you see, Like when
you see this image, like shecuse her hair is getting pulled,
but she doesn't necessarily look like she's in pain.

Speaker 4 (01:51:44):
She looks like she's having a good time, like yeah,
you know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (01:51:47):
Like it's like if she was like even doing a
little bit of a WinCE, it would be like fuck.

Speaker 4 (01:51:51):
That makes it a totally different image to me, you know,
And I do like that.

Speaker 1 (01:51:55):
The guy, like what they do to women a lot
where just a body part and you don't know who
that is, Like yeah, it's pretty cool bodied man. Yeah,
And I know she's smart and you know cool. I
just I want to know who the photography, who is
the creative director? I wonder I would like to know
if it was a guy or is it Terry Richardson?

Speaker 4 (01:52:15):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (01:52:18):
Yeah, Like I hope it's it was all her idea
with her stylists and all of that, and obviously a
lot of talk went into it. It's a full album
cover and a whole new Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:52:26):
And I was also talking about this when I was
talking about this on another podcast, was like, if this
is like coming this image is coming out in like
ninety nine and it's Britney Spears, I'm a little bit
like because like I never got the feeling that Britney
Spears was in charge of anything in her career. That's
like part of like the issue with how she was
how she was being treated. But when I see like

(01:52:48):
Taylor Sabrina, I feel like these girls are in charge
of everything. And maybe that's an image that's incorrect, but
like I get a feeling that she's in charge in
that she probably had her hands all over this.

Speaker 4 (01:52:57):
Yeah, Like I'm looking at it.

Speaker 1 (01:52:59):
And I also don't like line when it's like like
we should all have known, you just don't know. It's
about fifties ads, you fucking idiots, and it's like, yeah, yeah, no,
I didn't know that. Now I'm looking at them, I'm
taking it all in. But this idea that like you all.

Speaker 4 (01:53:10):
Knew immediately like where this was coming from. And if you.

Speaker 3 (01:53:13):
Don't, every girl I was born in the nineties was
immediately making fifties out references.

Speaker 1 (01:53:18):
But if we weren't in the Maga era of going
back to this. They are actively trying to take us
back to this.

Speaker 3 (01:53:24):
That's okay, That's an argument that I think is very interesting. Anyway,
this episode is obviously so fucked up, but like I said,
when we were when we were recapping, like it is
very interesting to me that even as far back as
season one, this show was kind of like fucking with
the idea of it's a cycle. Like a lot of

(01:53:46):
this stuff is a cycle, and I know it's like
not an excuse, but like in this specific episode, like
this feels like a guy who was being absolutely coerced,
like he's brainwashed by this man, and nobody thought about
how it was that this white man moved into a
black neighborhood and just started giving lessons to all the children.
Like I'm just surprised that like no one caught on

(01:54:08):
to this sooner, but I guess they were also focused.

Speaker 1 (01:54:12):
On Redo guzzamando, but damn it is. And congrats to
the people who got my Marishka tickets.

Speaker 5 (01:54:24):
I hope you had fun.

Speaker 1 (01:54:25):
Oh I got damned people had fun, just two people,
But yeah, I.

Speaker 4 (01:54:29):
Want to watch that. Is that out already? On Age
it'll be out. Yeah, you just premiered. It just premiered, Yeah,
yeah yeah, And I have a show tonight.

Speaker 1 (01:54:36):
But I've been having nightmares, like kind of with school
since I took eight days off. I was on the
trip that like I forgot all my jokes. Like I've
been having nightmares where I'm on stage and I don't
know any of my jokes and none of them are
working and I can't get them out.

Speaker 4 (01:54:48):
Oh that's because you never take like long breaks.

Speaker 1 (01:54:51):
No.

Speaker 3 (01:54:52):
I actually just did a set on Saturday for the
Cracked thing that people are doing.

Speaker 4 (01:54:57):
I saw some comics from I saw Tom.

Speaker 3 (01:54:59):
Takar I saw, but I wrote a bunch of new
jokes for it, and I've been like working them out
around town and was like, wow, I forgot how much
I love stand up when I have new stuff, Like,
you know, it's really fun, but.

Speaker 4 (01:55:11):
Okay, so funny.

Speaker 1 (01:55:12):
My sister said something like she doesn't understand why Brad
or like, when you're that rich, why would you continue working?
And I'm like, they like it, they like to make movies.
But she she was like, I just I don't know
they have enough. I'm like, I think it's weird to
do commercials. But also if someone's giving you fifteen million
dollars to hear a watch, I don't know why you wouldn't.

Speaker 3 (01:55:28):
But you always say when somebody is just like a
NEPO that's super rich, why do they work at all?

Speaker 1 (01:55:32):
Well, I think they should just be more service oriented.
I don't understand. Yeah, I don't understand the earth. And
it's like do photography, do the stuff, but why do
you have to make Like I don't get it, like
do the thing, but there's no pressure on you. Like
I just don't get why people with that much are
not service minded in any capacity, Cause it's.

Speaker 4 (01:55:52):
Sudden to be like I need to make my mom
proud of me.

Speaker 1 (01:55:55):
And it's like with a fashion line, you're sixty five,
No one's a press, no one's impressed that you had
other employees do something for you and put together this
adult talent show.

Speaker 4 (01:56:07):
This is humiliating. Oh my god, oh my god. There's
such a good read.

Speaker 1 (01:56:11):
I saw online and it was Tricia Pats played Radio
City Music Hall. Yeah, I saw and so there was
like a security guard. His face is like the confusion
of like why is this adult for? Like what is that?

Speaker 4 (01:56:24):
What's happening? Because Radio City.

Speaker 1 (01:56:26):
Even if you don't get the PIP or something, there's
like a level of prestige. I would say, if you
perform there or like some sort of skill. But it's
like just a woman singing poorly and the security guard
is so confused.

Speaker 4 (01:56:40):
This is what happens when.

Speaker 1 (01:56:41):
You can eat a full pizza on YouTube and get
people to be excited about that. I guess, well, but
I like her, that's the thing. She's so good spirited.
I also like, I love Brittany Broski. I like that
the Kombuchi girl has like a whole umpire, Like I
like her.

Speaker 3 (01:56:53):
You know, Brittany's so funny. She's like really talented and
she's a great singer. I'm liking like I think her
voice is great, but that it is funny when like
somebody goes from like cause like you could either be
Komuca girl for ten minutes, but she parlated into something
more because she has talent, like Tan Mom.

Speaker 4 (01:57:09):
We don't have Tan Mom anymore. But it's kind of.

Speaker 1 (01:57:11):
Like Nikki's Glazer's Golden Globe joke too, where it's like
the whole point of the arts is to become so
successful that you make a tequila brand and never have
to make art again. Yeah, you know, And it's all
these people being like all of you are making money
off Mexicans and tequila and everything, and you're fucking silent
and don't how.

Speaker 4 (01:57:29):
I don't know. It's just I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:57:31):
I've never been in a position where people want to
give me money to do limited work and go into
business like. I don't know, but I definitely understand. I
want to work forever. It's like, I don't want to
go to retire. I hope I like perform. I like it.

Speaker 3 (01:57:42):
I just got off the phone with my mom, who
I told you retired a few months ago. She's looking
for part time work. She's going to get a new
certification and start to get a new My.

Speaker 4 (01:57:50):
Dad's back at the pool. Yeah, thirty one. It's good though.
I think it's good for your mind.

Speaker 3 (01:57:55):
I think it's good for your spirit to like keep
at something not like full time gruel, but like you
know something.

Speaker 1 (01:58:02):
Yeah, hopefully people can still retire. Yeah, well hopefully we'll see. Well,
maybe there'll be a special camp for them.

Speaker 3 (01:58:10):
When we all go to the camps, when we all
go to the health camps. Our case sending us to
health camps. It's gonna be great. Okay, let's get into
what would Sister Peg Do? This is our weekly segment
where we direct you towards an organization or a book,
a documentary, something that has to do with today's episode
that we covered today. We're gonna go move a little
bit away from this. What we covered in today's episode,

(01:58:32):
we have highlighted many, many organizations that deal with child
abuse and child sexual abuse as well. So go back
into our WWSPD highlight on our Instagram and you can
scroll back into where there's three different highlights of all
of our our what would Sister Peg dos? But today
I really wanted to focus on an organization that's helping

(01:58:54):
the situation here in Los Angeles with these ice raids,
which I find to be so horrific. I have I'm
I'm like helping a friend right now who's undocumented, who
is like scared that she's going to be deported and
not be able to be with her child. It's like
so disgusting what they're doing. It's not I don't think.
I don't think it's what some of these people voted for,
but I think it's what a lot of them voted for.

(01:59:14):
And it's unconstitutional and gross and not who we are
as a country. So I'd like to point everybody to CHURLA,
which is the Coalition for Humane Immigrant Rights. The organization
was founded in nineteen eighty six to advance the human
and civil rights of immigrants and refugees. It is based
in Los Angeles. They organize communities to fight harmful policies

(01:59:35):
and demand equity and justice from our government. They've been
doing a lot during these raids and I really support
their work, and I know my city council person does,
and sort of a lot of the other city council
people that I support. So for more information or to donate,
head over to Cchirla dot org Curla dot org. And that,

(01:59:56):
as always, will be in our what would Sister Pegg
Do highlights on our Instagram page, which is That's Messed
Up pod, and it's in our show notes, will be
in our show notes as well.

Speaker 4 (02:00:04):
Thank you so much for that.

Speaker 1 (02:00:06):
And next week we'll be doing Manhunt from season two,
episode eighteen. So yeah, we're really sticking sticking to these
early seasons.

Speaker 4 (02:00:16):
And it's a fun one. Oh yeah, it's scary, scary.

Speaker 1 (02:00:19):
We appreciate all of you Thank you for listening, caring
about people around you, and messaging us and being supportive.

Speaker 4 (02:00:28):
We're upsided you guys rock. We'll see you next week. Hie.

Speaker 1 (02:00:40):
That's Messed Up as an Exactly Right production. If you
have compliments you'd like to give us or episodes you'd
like us to cover, shoot us an email it That's
Messed uppod at gmail dot com. Listen to That's Messed
Up on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
get your podcasts. Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's
Messed Up Pod, and follow us personally at Kara Klank

(02:01:01):
and at Glitter Cheese. As always, please see our show
notes for sources and more information. Thank you so much
to our senior producer Casey O'Brien and our associate producer
Christina Chamberlain, and to our mixer John Bradley and our
guest booker Patrick Cottner, and to Henry Kaperski for our
theme song and Carly Geen Andrews for our artwork. Thank

(02:01:21):
you to our executive producers Georgia hard Start, Karen Kilgarriff,
Daniel Kramer and everybody at Exactly Right Media.

Speaker 5 (02:01:28):
Dun Dun

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