Redemption w/ David Keith

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Of the Law and Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.

Speaker 3 (00:09):
These are our stories.

Speaker 1 (00:11):
Done done, Hello, and welcome to That's Messed Up, your

(00:31):
favorite Law and Order SVU podcast.

Speaker 3 (00:34):
I'm Kara and I'm.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
Liza, and we talk SVIE crime, We talked to celebs.
It's really a podcast that has everything. I'm back from
my fantastic week alass week. But I mean, I actually
just saw something terrible on the internet. I don't even
know if I want to talk about it, but that
the fucking White House posted like people getting arrested and

(01:01):
deported and made it an ASMR video. They're like lol
ASMR and it's like people getting shackled, searched and put
on a plane.

Speaker 3 (01:10):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
Yeah, And I went to make sure it wasn't fake
or AI because it's like, are you like, I mean,
every none of it is real, But it's like.

Speaker 3 (01:21):
What the fuck?

Speaker 1 (01:24):
Yeah, the course is so long gone, We're so long gone. Yeah,
the cruelty is part of it. It's the point, you know,
like it's fucked. We're gonna do I just like, but
we can't heavily drink because we can't handle it anymore.

Speaker 3 (01:37):
I mean, I don't know what, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:39):
I it's like when you were when you were not
feeling good last week, Like it just reminds me of
the time that we went out one of like the
first nights that I feel like we were all going
out like after COVID and I. You just kept buying
shots and I just kept being like, gotta drink these shots,
gotta keep up. And then our friend that we were
with later told me that she was throwing all the
shots and I was like, we were like, I was like,

(02:04):
I I threw up and I felt like asked.

Speaker 3 (02:08):
But I'm also mad that our friend couldn't just be like.

Speaker 1 (02:12):
For me, I know, I see, you know, I can't
see that kind of waste of money, Like I had
to take them. I was like, I'm not she bought them.
I'm not gonna like not take them. But anyway, Uh, yeah,
it's kind of the darkest thing I've ever seen.

Speaker 3 (02:27):
Yeah. Fuck, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (02:30):
I don't know what our uh, I don't know what
our recourse is right now, but I know a lot
of you are feeling the same way as US so.

Speaker 2 (02:39):
And then it's like the articles are like sparks backlash,
Oh my god, and it's like, no, it's not bad.
This is like the people that like it like it.
I don't know, it's not Yeah, who cares about backlas? Like,
I don't know, it's just backlash is so minimal and stupid,
Like why would you write about that? There's no backlas,
Like nothing's gonna happen, there's no checks and balances.

Speaker 1 (03:03):
I know, there's like a thing because like I saw
some tweet about impeachment and I was like, can we
even do We can't even do that.

Speaker 3 (03:08):
We can't do it, but we need to.

Speaker 1 (03:10):
We'll just we need to take the midterms in two years,
so hopefully we're working on that. I don't know really
who's in fucking charge anywhere, though. I don't think we're
gonna get there. I think once putin and try, I mean,
we can't. Let's just talk about sn L fiftieth.

Speaker 3 (03:26):
I don't know. I know Hunger Games, we're in the
Hunger Well.

Speaker 1 (03:32):
I have literally have it saved on my DVR, but
haven't had a chance to watch it yet. It's like
so long, but I've obviously been checking in on the clips.

Speaker 3 (03:41):
It's so cool. It's so fun.

Speaker 1 (03:42):
Like I have a couple of friends that were there,
and I'm like, I can't wait for you to tell
me about it.

Speaker 3 (03:47):
Like I just think it's like cool. Like I don't know.

Speaker 1 (03:51):
Some people hate SNL. My husband doesn't like SNL. I
love it. I watch every week. I record every episode
and watch it, and I think it's fun to see
all these people come back and like get into these
old characters and do that shit, and to also just
talk about like the little behind the lines, yeah, and
the behind the scenes of like how they came up
with shit, and like I like that.

Speaker 3 (04:13):
I think it's so funny.

Speaker 1 (04:15):
But what were your I mean, I was watching some
clips of like Meryl Street playing Kate McKinnon, you know
that the pervert that always gets like abducted.

Speaker 3 (04:25):
That was making me laugh. You know. That was her
SNL debut. She's never hosted.

Speaker 1 (04:32):
Wait what, that's nothing. You've never had Meryl Streep because
she seems very fun.

Speaker 3 (04:36):
I don't think she wants to.

Speaker 2 (04:37):
I think kind of the smart and short thing has
really brought a new side of Meryll out.

Speaker 3 (04:42):
Yeah, I'm really.

Speaker 2 (04:42):
Into them kind of out and about being silly.

Speaker 3 (04:47):
Me too.

Speaker 2 (04:48):
I'm loving that and I'm excited by their their relationship.
I really like the way Drew Barrymore looked. I didn't
watch it. I've just been looking at all the like
clips and fun stuff and like, I'm just in a
Bravo haes. Like I said, I slimly watched White Lotus yet,
but I did watch Yellow Jackets. I did watch the
two the premiere episodes of Yellow Jackets.

Speaker 1 (05:09):
Oh it was two because I started one. I'm halfway
through the first one. Yeah, there's two, but I didn't
know it was too you know. I had to fucking
upgrade to Paramount Plus. It changed my whole I had
to get Paramount plus showtime. I changed my whole billing cycle.
I got like a partial refund. It was crazy, but
really quickly back to Merrill. A little bit of fun
local interesting information for you. Was I think I've mentioned

(05:31):
before I've been to an event, a children's party event,
where Meryl Streep was present. I went to that same
event this year. She was at SNL fifty, so she
was not there, but I did. I did speak to
her son, who is buying the york A bar that
we used to go to all the time when you
lived in La and turning.

Speaker 3 (05:51):
It into part venue, part bar.

Speaker 1 (05:54):
And I was like, you gotta let me help you
find a good comedian to run a good comedy show there,
and he was like, totally. So I'm gonna try to
get some comedy going at the York when.

Speaker 2 (06:02):
It's because they're in room, it's not that bit or
outside the other side.

Speaker 3 (06:07):
Gonna they'll do it. I think they're gonna like trash
the like bar in the center.

Speaker 1 (06:11):
Like I think they're gonna do like a bifurcated like
spot and change the whole like layout.

Speaker 3 (06:16):
But I don't know. It's not gonna be ready for
a while. He's like, probably not till next year or something.

Speaker 1 (06:21):
But I'm exciting because I will say I love that
place and I used to go there all the time
pre pandemic, but they have the quality has to Last
time I went there, it felt like the heat was
off and we were just.

Speaker 3 (06:34):
Not only that, but it's like change the menu.

Speaker 2 (06:36):
It's been years, like again having a few staple items
like have your Caesar, but like all right, like just
nothing ever changed or was that good And it's a
lot of good memories, but that's it. Like, yeah, the York, Yeah,
but I guess it's gonna be a venue yeah across
from the Goldfish.

Speaker 3 (06:56):
A real war.

Speaker 1 (06:58):
Totally, and like there's all kinds of wars because Belle's
is a bar. Now, I mean, this is we're just
talking local now, We're just talking local commerce in Liza's
old neighborhood in my current but listen back to SNL fifty.

Speaker 3 (07:12):
I was a little bit surprised that Ryan Reynolds made
that little joke. Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (07:19):
I someone was just like, I don't know if my
wife was a sexually assaulted at work, I don't know
if I'd be making little jokes about it.

Speaker 3 (07:26):
That's what I mean. That's what I mean.

Speaker 1 (07:28):
This is a multimillion dollar lawsuit that could destroy her career,
the other guy's career, whatever. And like, well, Bethany, I
watched a Bethany TikTok.

Speaker 3 (07:38):
I watched Bethany.

Speaker 1 (07:38):
Bethany is Bethany has a magnifying glass up to her
eye and is like a private eye for this fucking case.

Speaker 3 (07:44):
She's talks about it so much I don't even follow her.

Speaker 1 (07:46):
She like pops up in my for you page being
like and another thing about bal Downy, like.

Speaker 3 (07:50):
You know, she's like always in it.

Speaker 2 (07:53):
She says, it's like everyone that's a who's who in
Hollywood was there. So to them, it's not it's about
solidifying like these people like me, like I'm in with
this crowd like these because if all these people are
okay with me, then everyone's okay with me. So it's
that and I need to make a joke so that
everybody's positive. I was there and it's like a full yeah, wow,

(08:17):
I guess. And then Bill Hayter wasn't there. No, Stefan,
Bill Hayter wasn't there. Oh, I was really looking forward
to us.

Speaker 3 (08:27):
I said.

Speaker 2 (08:27):
It was like scheduling, but it's like, no, it's on
a weekend. I feel like he didn't want to.

Speaker 3 (08:32):
Go interesting, interesting, Interesting.

Speaker 2 (08:37):
He did a pre taped thing, but I heard I
once said he's like he didn't love his time there, but.

Speaker 3 (08:43):
Still seems like some of you would. I was.

Speaker 1 (08:45):
I think I've told this before, but I was working
at SNL when he did his first show and it
was him and Andy Samberg and I met them at
the after after party and they were both like, how
do you guys.

Speaker 3 (08:55):
Think it went?

Speaker 1 (08:55):
We were like, you guys were great, Like we were
like the Pages and we were like hyping them up,
you know, because we didn't know that they were going
to go on to become like two of like the
big ones, you know, and we were just like, you
guys were awesome.

Speaker 3 (09:07):
And I think Bill Hater made out with one of
my friends.

Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah, so what did you guys do in between when
everyone went to the after, like to the after after all?

Speaker 3 (09:18):
What would you do to kill time?

Speaker 1 (09:20):
You've been to SNL, so you've probably seen the Pages
are in their uniforms and they now they wear Brooks
Brothers cute gray uniforms.

Speaker 3 (09:28):
We wore navy.

Speaker 1 (09:30):
Dresses from Casual Corner with navy tights and navy shoes
and a navy blazer and our little pins and like
we called them our blues.

Speaker 3 (09:38):
Like that was like you had to get in your blues.

Speaker 1 (09:39):
So we would go to someone's apartment, get out of
our blues, get into our tube tops and like whatever
and start pregaming because you had to like start drinking
because the show gets over at one. By the time
you're done whatever, you're getting to someone's house at two,
But like the after after is not really getting rocking
into like three p thirty, so like we would be
like we got to go like get catch up and

(09:59):
and and be also not spent.

Speaker 3 (10:02):
We were making ten dollars an hour.

Speaker 1 (10:03):
We don't want to spend a ton of money at
like you know the bar, so and listen were the
bars open bar?

Speaker 3 (10:10):
I don't remember.

Speaker 1 (10:10):
I would assume they would have been open bar, but
maybe not for us randoms. But you always had to
have a password. You'd have a password to go get
into the after after, and like whoever was the SNL
page would find out because we were there'd be like
three dedicated SNL pages, like I was the cone In
dedicated page, and then there'd be three SNL dedicated pages
and then the rest of us.

Speaker 3 (10:29):
Just worked the show.

Speaker 1 (10:31):
So the main pages would like tell us like here's
where it is, here's where you go. And I absolutely
requested all I want for Christmas is you in April
at a couple of those parties, you know, so we
made our mark.

Speaker 3 (10:44):
Uh, but yeah, it's it's fun.

Speaker 1 (10:46):
Like I had a blast, like to be able to
even stand in the studio. One time Jeff Zucker tapped
me on this on the shoulder and goes, how did
this do it at dress? This sketch and I go, great, Like,
what am I going to tattle on us and tell
you that the sketch bombed a dress like I was like, Oh,
it was great.

Speaker 3 (11:03):
It was so funny. I don't know who that is.

Speaker 1 (11:06):
He was thee he was the CEO of NBC and NBCUniversal.
He was like the headhead like so I was like that,
and then he went on to start to see it
and then he went on to run CNN and now
I think I don't know, he's maybe been canceled. I
don't really know what's going on with him. But yeah,
my time at SNL was so fun. But I was

(11:26):
just a little worker bee and I can't Yeah, I'm
excited to watch the long show. And the clips I've
seen were fun and it seemed like a fun at first.
I was like, so it kicked off with like a
music thing.

Speaker 2 (11:37):
Well, Friday was the concert and this Sunday was like
the big thing.

Speaker 3 (11:41):
Okay, got it, got it?

Speaker 2 (11:43):
But I think Miley and Brittany Howard still performed at
on the Sunday Show.

Speaker 3 (11:48):
Who's Brittany Howard from Alabama? Sheikhs? Oh cool?

Speaker 2 (11:54):
And then Aubrey Plaza introduced them, and it's been her
first sighting since the tragedy.

Speaker 3 (12:00):
Yeah, I saw that. I saw that. Oh my gosh,
I made it.

Speaker 2 (12:05):
But I thought the lobster thing is like the John
Mulaney Pete Davidson, like the lobster and the diner.

Speaker 3 (12:11):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (12:12):
I there was like a giant one of that where
I think, like, you know, just the celebrity parade. I
did see a thing about celebs where like it used
to be not cool to sell out, like you'd be like, eh,
you fucking sell out, and then it stopped and I
was like, oh great, everyone's making their money, and now
it's like can people have some shame, Like I mean,

(12:33):
fucking losers?

Speaker 3 (12:34):
The super Bowl it's.

Speaker 2 (12:35):
Just celeb commercial after celebcri It's just.

Speaker 1 (12:37):
Like it's it's awesome change. It's also like half the
time taking jobs from like people that like just want
to get a cast in a commercial that's like, oh
they decided to cast like a super celebrity instead, you know,
and no annoying. It's crazy because who do you remember
being the first? Like I this isn't definitely like the first,
but I remember being like, why is Catherine's data Jones

(12:59):
doing tmobile commercials. Like I remember being like she is
so famous and she is like a singer and a
dancer and this like respected actress, Like why is she
like do do do?

Speaker 3 (13:09):
Do do? Like why is she doing a T mobile commercial?

Speaker 2 (13:13):
And then you know, I guess if it's like a
quick days of work for a few million dollars, why not.
But it's just like, I don't know, there just used
to be a thing of like not wanting to be
a sellout, and now there's totally it's not even a
hint of that. It's like everything is just an ad
and something is someone's trying to sell you something. They

(13:35):
all want to start a business, yeah, right ahead of
food book.

Speaker 3 (13:40):
I don't know. It's just like blame yeah, And it.

Speaker 1 (13:44):
Seems like it seemed like, yeah, because did you did
you sort of think of this because maybe Meryl Streep
thought like it would be kind of selling out to
go on SNL when she was like a really respected
actress back in the day, or like she was so serious.

Speaker 2 (13:58):
Maybe No, I was thinking of it in terms of
like it was just celeb central, the SNL thing, and
then I was just thinking about the super Bowl, and
then I was just thinking about like this thing I
saw about how it used to like not be cool.

Speaker 3 (14:14):
Yeah yeah, but then I was happy.

Speaker 2 (14:15):
I remember seeing like Amy polar and commercials being like,
hell yeah, I'm loving that Amy Pohlar is making money.
I remember thinking that, and now I'm just like eight
celebrities in this duncan Ad Bill Belichick's Teen Bride, Like
I just don't.

Speaker 3 (14:31):
Well that, like ooh, yuck.

Speaker 1 (14:34):
That gives me a bad feeling, that whole thing.

Speaker 3 (14:37):
But that's what I thought about it. No, Meryll.

Speaker 2 (14:39):
There was like a list I read of like people
surprisingly like Leonardo DiCaprio's Never Hosted. I also think it's
like a vulnerable, crazy thing. But Meryl would of course
kill it. I don't know why some people just have
never or maybe because their movies are serious, like Hi,
and I'm in The Iron Lady, you know, like.

Speaker 1 (14:56):
I know, but it's like at the same growing up,
growing up, she was in like Postcards from the Edge,
she was in She Devil, one of my favorite movies
of all time, so funny like she was in Death
Becomes Her like all these great comedy roles like that.

Speaker 2 (15:14):
It's like, why, okay, forty celebrity shockingly never hosted, Marishka
Hargate being one of them, Christian Bale, Kate Blanchette, Sandra Bullock.
I think that's pretty shocking to me. Yeah, Viola Davis,
Leonardo DiCaprio, Morgan Freeman, Angelina, Julie, Jessica Lang. I mean,
I wouldn't imagine Jessica Lang. I'm not surprised, No, she's not,

(15:36):
but she would kill She would do an al Pacino
Brad Pitt, although he did make an Emmy nominated appearance
in twenty twenty, so I don't know what that is.
Julia Roberts, that's shocking. I can't believe in the nineties
she wouldn't have done it. Meryl she Downzel Washington, Yeah, weird.
I don't think Christian Bale should do it. He's angry.

(15:58):
But Sandra Bullock and Robert's not doing it is like
pretty shocking to me because they're also America's sweethearts. Like
they are good actresses, but they're America's sweetheart vibes like
right and doing comedies and like charming, like we love them.
Why wouldn't they do it?

Speaker 3 (16:15):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (16:16):
Like Sandra Bullock is very funny, Yeah, it's such a
cool history.

Speaker 2 (16:19):
It really is like whatever they I mean, I just
wish like an old out of touch man didn't have
Elon Musk and fucking Trump post and like.

Speaker 1 (16:26):
I do too, I really like I listen to this
so outdated. I listened to this like podcast one time
and I feel really oh it was like a Malcolm Glodwell,
which whatever.

Speaker 3 (16:39):
People have mixed feelings about him, but he did.

Speaker 1 (16:41):
This podcast about like this episode of his podcast about
like satire and how like satire in the United States
has like lost its teeth because we used to make
fun of things to like call them out, and now
instead of we make we'll make fun of Sarah Palin,
but then we'll invite her to be on the show,
or like we'll make fun of Donald Trump and then
invite him to be on the show. And it's like,
so you're not actually calling out anybody because you're inviting

(17:04):
them in. Like the teeth is out of the satire
and so like, I am super disappointed that they had
Elon Musk and Donald Trump on, you know, like I
think that sucks, but whatever, everybody makes mistakes.

Speaker 3 (17:16):
I do also think that the rumor is he's going
to step down now that the fiftieth. After we pass
the fiftieth.

Speaker 1 (17:23):
Lauren, fuck yeah, And the two people I've heard bandied
about are Seth and Tina, so we'll see.

Speaker 4 (17:29):
Well.

Speaker 3 (17:29):
Yeah, though I feel like those are obviouss me but I.

Speaker 1 (17:33):
But somebody was telling me they were like the thing
is is like Lauren's the one that gets all the
money for that show. Like there he kind of like
swings his dick around and gets like a bunch of
money for like these digital shorts and all this big
production and like whatever, and that they don't know that
without him, the network will like keep giving it the
same amount of money.

Speaker 3 (17:52):
But I don't know.

Speaker 2 (17:54):
I don't think he's like give it to anyone. I
think he's going to die there. I think he's a psychopath.
I think he likes what he's creating. He's eighty, so
it's fine. But it's like I just don't think he's
gonna act normal or make a normal decision. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
interesting though I'm interested. Dan Akroyd also wasn't there. Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:16):
I loved Lorraine Newman and Jane Curtin holding up Gilda's picture.

Speaker 3 (18:21):
That was so sweet. That was very sweet.

Speaker 2 (18:23):
I was hanging out with Devin Walker right after it,
and I was like asking, he goes, you seem to
know more about what happened than I do. I go,
I've been watching everything on the internet. I've been looking
at everything, every outfit.

Speaker 3 (18:34):
He's like, you crazy.

Speaker 1 (18:36):
It was like, yeah, it's interesting, and it was taking
over our feeds for like the whole weekend.

Speaker 2 (18:41):
I mean I saw like nothing else but that, Like, oh,
Sarah Sherman was dressed so nice. And then everyone's listening
to this three weeks later. We've already like our country
will be nuclearly bombed by the time this comes out.

Speaker 1 (18:52):
And people will be like just cooking dinner at the
camps listening to your podcast.

Speaker 2 (18:58):
I just can't believe we're living this life of like
joy and terror and frozen.

Speaker 3 (19:03):
This I don't know.

Speaker 2 (19:05):
Yeah, oh but our next intro, we'll be able to
talk about Luigi's trials, so.

Speaker 1 (19:11):
Oh yes, it's that yes, And I will have watched
I will be caught up on drug Race by then.
I've got a lot to catch up on. Also, I'm
going to New York next week. I'm gonna be God,
I'm gonna have my laptop. I'm gonna have a TV
and I'm gonna have no kids, so I'm catching up
on a lot of shit.

Speaker 3 (19:25):
I'm excited.

Speaker 2 (19:26):
That's those are your big New York plan, Those are
my big New York plans.

Speaker 1 (19:31):
I'm like, i gotta catch up on all my shit,
like drag Race White Lights.

Speaker 3 (19:35):
Are you gonna see Connecticut people or just New York people.

Speaker 1 (19:39):
I'm gonna go see my parents on the drive up
to New Hampshire. I'm gonna stop in and just give
them a quick high. But I don't think I'm gonna
see like my brother or anybody else in Connecticut. Yeah,
I'm gonna be in the city most of the time.
But I'm excited. I mean, it is gonna be February
in New York, so I am nervous, but I'm excited
to be back because I New York.

Speaker 3 (20:01):
I love New York.

Speaker 1 (20:03):
But yeah, should we get started. We've got a great
episode for today. As always, go to That's Messed Up
Live dot com. You can buy some merch you can
check out Lisa's tour dates, follow us, rate us reviews.

Speaker 3 (20:17):
Whatever you gotta do.

Speaker 1 (20:18):
But That's Messed Up Live dot com has all the
links that you need in your life. Also, promo codes
for all of our ads. If you're interested in getting
a little deal. I'm seeing me live, I'm on the road. Yeah, yeah,
that's on there too, all Lisa's dates go check her
out and uh and that's it.

Speaker 3 (20:34):
Yeah, let's get started.

Speaker 2 (20:39):
So we are doing Redemption season three, episode six.

Speaker 3 (20:44):
Wow, fresh off nine to eleven November.

Speaker 1 (20:49):
It is the hallmark of our podcast that we always
put ourselves in time in relation to nine.

Speaker 3 (20:54):
To eleven November. Second. That's yeah, we're not even two
months out.

Speaker 2 (21:00):
I wonder when they came back, Like they are crazy,
they don't really rest, but I think everyone rested for
a while.

Speaker 3 (21:08):
I mean, I don't know. I wasn't there. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:10):
There was also the thing where the Twin Towers were
in the opening credits, and I think they had to
like remove them, unlike me and my college dorm room,
where I had just put up a full wallpaper of
the New York City skyline featuring the Twin Towers and
it stayed up for my entire senior year of college.
So we said, the Twin Towers are still standing strong
in high Rise, which was the name of my dorm.

Speaker 2 (21:33):
But people were like scared when they saw them. Right, Yeah,
everybody would walk in and go whoa.

Speaker 1 (21:39):
But they did think it looked cool, like it was
a cool wallpaper we found at home.

Speaker 3 (21:42):
Depot.

Speaker 2 (21:44):
Okay, redemption, redemption. We're in court and Stablers on the sand.
He's being asked about stating under oath that he tested
everyone that had any personal contact with Leslie Bellow, and
you know, he's like correct, But then they're like, well,
he didn't test the teacher or the bus driver, the plumber,
so in fact, you didn't test everyone that came in

(22:05):
contact with her. And he's like, well, Leslie didn't identify
the plumber as her rapist, so and the lawyers like,
well eight year olds Lie. So then Cabot has an objection,
and she does stand. They don't always stand, Did I
always have to stand?

Speaker 1 (22:18):
Barbara like leans back during his objections, Like I think
it's like a different I think it's.

Speaker 3 (22:22):
A style thing.

Speaker 1 (22:23):
Like she stands, Casey, I think sometimes stands. Barba's like objection,
you're on her leading, you know, like Barba's drinking an
espresso while he's doing it, Like, but yeah, she stands.

Speaker 2 (22:35):
He withdraws though, and goes and sits down. Cabot redirects
and says whom did Leslie below identify as her rapists?
And Stabler says her grandfather Frederick Bellow dramatic music. Sabler
walks out of court and Leslie's in the hallway. She's
holding a bear. This bear has a purple outfit and
the mom's there. She's scared, but he's gonna pump He's

(22:57):
pumping her up that like she's gonna do a good
job on stand. She's very scared, but Sablor knows that
she can do it. She hands her stuff to bear
over to him, Wow huge and goes into the courtroom.
Sabler says he can't be in there, but that they're
always in there.

Speaker 1 (23:14):
I know, I don't know why. He's like I can't.
He's like, I gotta go. I suddenly have to be
there for my own kids. Like I don't know why
he has to leave. He's always in lives, always in there,
like with the victims.

Speaker 4 (23:24):
I know.

Speaker 3 (23:24):
So that's a little confusing to me.

Speaker 1 (23:27):
So also, like this fucking guy, I'm just saying, like
I know, this isn't even like the main part of
the episode, but like you're a man who has uh
sexually assaulted your own granddaughter, like you obviously and you've
been caught and now you're putting her through a trial.
It's like double monstrosity, do you know what I mean?
Like if you were just like, oh my god, I'm
a monster. I've been doing this in secret. I'm sick. Okay.

(23:49):
But he's like, nope, take me to trial. I want
to prove that she's a liar in front, like fucking nuts.

Speaker 3 (23:55):
This is nuts. Now, you know.

Speaker 2 (23:59):
We cut the stabler walking into the precincts. He doesn't
talk to anybody, and Benson's like, how did it go?
And we could tell by the body language not good?
Okay yea, and he goes They let him walk. That's crazy.
If he had the STD that his granddaughter had, I
don't know what more evidence that jury really needed.

Speaker 1 (24:17):
Right, And she's telling you she's eight, Like that's eight
year olds?

Speaker 3 (24:22):
No, what's up? Yeah? They both have gone rha in
the house like I just fuck that jury. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (24:29):
He pushes all the coffee cups to the ground and
says the whole system is screwed up and runs off.
But the city never sleeps, so they have to go
to another crime scene. A UNI breaks it down at
a no Hoo apartment so to rape homicide Jennifer Walton
twenty five. Her friend discovered her after the landlady let
her in. There's a whole punch through the bedroom door,

(24:51):
and then we see her in the bed. It's bloody,
hands bound behind her back with panty hose. They use
panty hose a lot in the beginning seasons. Yes, every
woman has panty hose. They're always lying around, Hi, They're
always being used to tie people up. Yeah, they do.

Speaker 3 (25:08):
And then face pummeled throats.

Speaker 2 (25:10):
Slick Finn finds a white rose and Munch says, oh,
a romantic psycho sailors in the corner, going damn. I
thought my day couldn't get any worse. Always about him.
But we go right into the credits and we're still
at the crime scene. We're talking to the neighbors who's
holding a fluffy white dog and she's saying how she
would watch the victim's dog. When she went away last

(25:32):
month for the weekend with a man named David. They
were friendly, she says, she saw him sometimes. He was tall,
graying hair, brought her flowers all different types, and she
heard them fighting.

Speaker 3 (25:44):
Last night.

Speaker 2 (25:45):
She was yelling something about trying like her, trying to
ruin his life. She feels bad for not checking in
on her. Now they go to the friend who found
her and she's holding the victims dog. It's a King
Charles guy, were King Charles Spaniel spaniel.

Speaker 3 (26:03):
There we go.

Speaker 2 (26:04):
Cute, cute dog and they they were gonna meet for
drinks at nine, but eight thirty she called, saying she's
gonna be late, and she did. Hear a man's voice
in the background, sailor's being a dick as this girl
is crying, she's flustered, and he's being snied and sarcastic
to her, and he goes, oh, is there anything you're
sure about? Benson's watching him be a dick from afar.

(26:26):
She calls him, you know, She's like, all right, come
over here. She says that it looks like the victim
was entertaining. There's wine glasses. It seems like the first
blow happened at the on the couch and then was
dragged into the bedroom. No sign of a struggle, but
so that means the first blow really knocked her out

(26:46):
and like stunned her. Melinda chimes in that she thinks
the purp was left handed. The knife and blood spatter
at point two it being left handed. I don't think
this comes up again, though, so that I know I
was saying that.

Speaker 1 (26:58):
I was like, Lisa will tell me, but I don't
think I ever bring up the left handed thing again.

Speaker 3 (27:01):
They never do, so that's funny.

Speaker 2 (27:05):
So then this dude showers and washes the wineglass a
knife and then takes the dirty towels and stuff with him.
Stabler goes, wow, you have it all figured out, and
she goes, yeah, at least I'm trying. We're back at
Craigan's office, all hands on deck, including George Wang. He
thinks the violence is soothing to him because it was
a lot of rage but not out of control, and

(27:27):
that he has euphoria after like the initial outburst, but
then it calms him down, and so the more he maims,
the better he feels, and once the rage goes away,
he's kind of like a gentle loving you know. Tucks
her into bed, folds her clothing flower on the pillow,
and then he also says that this dude wooed her
before he killed her. So George is thinking this guy

(27:48):
is smart and charming. Stabler walks off. He's like checks
out fully, Benson chases him down. I'm like so annoyed.
It's like, just let him be a little baby. I
don't like, we have a crime to solve. But they're
gonna go talk to the boyfriend and then and like
deal with her work, and then Finn and Munch will
focus on forensics. So then at Melinda's how oh yeah,

(28:12):
this girl's tore up. Oh it's rough, teeth beaten out,
like yeah, he hit her so hard that her teeth
fell out, like this is crazy. No semen, but spermicide.
And then ding ding ding weird two circular incisions on
her chest where the skin was taken out. Melinda says,

(28:32):
what this woman went through death was a blessing.

Speaker 1 (28:36):
And you know, this reminds me of Silence of the
Lambs right away, of course, right the removing of the
skin piece, you know, I was like, oh, it's a
Buffalo bill type.

Speaker 3 (28:44):
But you know, we find.

Speaker 2 (28:45):
Out they go to talk to a woman at the
store and her coworker has been found dead, but she
has not stopped putting clothes away.

Speaker 3 (28:55):
Yeah, she's on the move. She's got to restock.

Speaker 2 (29:00):
And the thing is this is classic SVU, but it
still needs to be mentioned, and it is one of
the most egregious I've ever seen, Like you.

Speaker 1 (29:07):
Could even ask your manager, Hey, the cops are here
to talk about my our dead coworker, Like could could
I leave for five minutes?

Speaker 2 (29:13):
Can I go outside? Like the manager wouldn't even care.
It's like you always have to stock. There's no rush,
there's no like no one was at the store. Like
the way she was put I mean, maybe that's her,
like the way she deals with stress, but just put
the clothes down.

Speaker 1 (29:29):
If we ever get to talk to like Dick woll
for like or people that direct the episodes, I'd be
interested to know about, like is there something that's like, oh,
it's better, like it's better visually to keep the people
moving fast, because like it's one thing to like be
on one side of a counter and then move to
the other side to grab a book or something. These
people are like running half the time they're talking to

(29:51):
the cops. Like the the clip at which they are
getting their jobs done, it's so I mean, it's a
full SNL sketch, but like it's it's like, I don't know,
cracks me up.

Speaker 2 (30:01):
Yeah, Okay, So then they ask her about like you know,
do you know about this guy that was heard at
her house? And she goes, yeah, and he's a married man,
but that never stopped him. He was always chasing women
and he was shameless. Tammy from Cosmetics even filed a
harassment suit. He never backed off. She had a transfer
to a store in Brooklyn, and that's when he turned
all his attention to our girl. The woman says, like

(30:24):
she warned her, but she kept insisting that they were
just friends.

Speaker 3 (30:27):
So we have to go find this guy. And he's
so creepy.

Speaker 2 (30:29):
He's touching this woman's legs as he puts shoes on,
like he's in the shoe department. So it is, uh,
it's creepy. It's so touchy. So we're immediately in cement
room bars. He has a bandage wrapped around his hand
and he says he broke a knuckle banging it against
the door. Hello, we saw a hole in the door,

(30:50):
so ding ding ding, So they bring up I keep saying,
so I think more than I normally do.

Speaker 3 (30:58):
I'm gonna stop.

Speaker 1 (31:00):
Well, can I jump in really quickly here to say
that this shoeman is soap opera royalty. He is just
for any of the soapy girlies. He was on All
My Children for twelve hundred and eight episodes, it has
on his IMDb, and and then I think he oh yeah,
and then he moved Young and the Restless in General Hospital.

Speaker 3 (31:21):
But for me, he's Tad Martin.

Speaker 1 (31:22):
Tad and Dixie were like the couple for me on
All my Children. They're like the Luke and Laura of
my all my of all my children for me, I
mean also All my Children also had Susan Lucci, who
I was like obsessed with, but like Tad and Dixie
were like the couple you were like rooting for on
All my children. So if anyone any Pine Valley heads
out there, this is him anyway.

Speaker 3 (31:42):
Go on.

Speaker 2 (31:43):
So to me to interrupt, I don't mind. I mean
it's good. He needs to get his flowers. He was
just the man. So I'm sure you got really excited.
They yeah, So they bring up that you know, we
know you were Jennifer's and we you know you were
her yelling, and then Sailor leans in and goes, oh,
I have didn't make you feel good beating a woman.

(32:05):
He denies it obviously, and he's like, what is what?
What was this about the door I'll pay for the
damn door. Sabor leans in again and like his hands
are on his knees and he goes, what set you off,
shoe boy, and he says she was going to file
a complaint with the boss of harassing her. And he's like,
I only asked her to dinner and they say, so

(32:27):
you murdered her, and his face is legit shocked, stun
and he goes what he turns to Benson like just
flabberg acid, She's dead. Yeah. Stabler does not like this attitude,
grabs him, pulls him up, slams him on the grates
of the window. He is scared as how you know, angry,
angry elliot and Benson you know mommy Mommy is like,

(32:48):
leave him alone. And so then he says she threw
me out around seven thirty, and they're like, you're a
fucking liar, and he goes, no, no, no, I was
already at the hospital by eight. So then he breathes
like a sigh of relief because he does know that
he has an alibi at this point. So Stabler releases
the grip just a little bit and they all run out.
Benson is like, bitch, what the hell are you doing.

(33:08):
Do you want to get sued? And he's rolling up
his sleeves and speed walking. She is so annoyed, but
again being mature, So then we had to mercy general
and what do we have here? David Steadman signed in
at seven forty seven just discharged. Ew I don't like
saying discharged. Discharge at twelve fifty two am. They ask
why it took so long, and it's because every time

(33:31):
he hit on the nurse, she put him on the
bottom of the list.

Speaker 3 (33:33):
Love that doing the lord's work.

Speaker 2 (33:36):
Stabler runs off again and guess what, put your money
on it. Benson's chasing him down the hallway and it's
like damn like I and in between them rushes in
a stretcher with EMTs and it's like we hear face pummeled,
five inch laceration to the throat. Benson on the phone
trying to hear something. Munch is on the line and

(33:58):
she's like, I think that person on this stretcher that's
victim number two. So they head on back and obviously
this was a commercial break, and so now we're at
the center board of the precinct. The second victim is
Celia Mitchum, she's twenty five, a teacher's aid, and the
landlord found her tucked into bed with all the same
details from the other crime. So they are looking at

(34:18):
ye capt to see if there's other crimes that fit
the mo because obviously he's like like when he was,
maybe more sloppy, because he's way too organized now. But
he's not a first timer. This is all according to Huang.
You know, he's like wine, chocolates, roses, that's all romance,
you know, white roses, that's a symbol of innocence, purity.
Huang's like, unfortunately, no woman fulfills his romantic fantasy, and

(34:40):
that's why he goes nuts. You know, he's frustrated and
it keeps escalating, and he studies these women. He knows them.
He's white educated, middle management and stabler. With his feet
up on the desks, goes, why didn't you pick up
any of this before? Huang goes, because a pattern didn't
emerge until the second victim, you fool. Quang thinks, such

(35:01):
a little bit, it's honestly just so annoying. Quang thinks, he's, uh, well, yeah,
it's like a bad trait, you know, like if you're
in a bad mood.

Speaker 3 (35:11):
Everyone has to be in a bad mood. Yeah, that's
like annoying.

Speaker 2 (35:14):
Yeah, bad quality exactly, Huang thinks. Now, Huang's like, I
bet he's been doing it like five to ten years.
And then we hear a new deep man voice. You'll
have to go hell of a lot further back than that.
And this man knows Elliott, and Elliott knows him, and
his name is John and he and he needs a

(35:35):
few minutes with Cragan. Craigan is expecting him. He's like,
Detective Hawkins, come this way. And then Craigan invites Elliott
to join the meeting as well, which is weird. Why
not Benson, you know, she's actually doing her job and
not being a big baby fit is like, who the
hell is that?

Speaker 3 (35:50):
And Stanbler goes, what whyatt here? Right?

Speaker 2 (35:54):
Yeah, but that's not his name? No, but that he's
making a joke. Why but what is that?

Speaker 1 (36:00):
Wyatterup is like an outlaw or something? Right, Like I
think I don't know, Like, let me look. I think
it's like a reference to Yes, it's like a great question.
I've like literally been to bars called Wyerps and I
like don't really know who he was, like a cop,
but I think like he was a cop in like
the eighteen hundreds or the nineteen hundreds, No, the eighteen hundreds,
and I think he did like the Deadwood type time period,

(36:25):
you know, and then he I think was like a
cop that did things on his own, like like skirted
the rules and shit. You know.

Speaker 2 (36:31):
Okay, okay, I think he's making that reference, but I
did have to google that. I don't so renegade cop
and so Craigan wants the door shut. Shit is getting real.
Stabler took this man's class at the academy. Hawkins goes, well,
do you remember the sohost strangler, and you know, Sabler's like, yeah,

(36:52):
Roger Berry early eighties beating raped his victims and then
strangle them, and Hawkins put him away. Well he's like,
well he's out. He was pearled six months ago. And
Stabler's like what. Stabler fights it immediately. It's like, well no,
because there was a knife, not strangling, and the Hawkins
is like yeah, but tucks into bed you know White Rose,
and Stabler says it, well, it could be a copycat,

(37:14):
you know. But we find out that information about the
White Rose was never revealed to the media. So then
Stable goes, yeah, but he was a biter, and it's like, duh,
he cut out the encircles in the skin so you
couldn't see the bites and do the dental records like
you fool I wrote a real noss ferratu on her hands. Okay,
So so now Stabler has to work with Hawkins. And

(37:39):
you know, I always love when they give Stabler a
man with an attitude that he has to deal with.
This has happened I think three times where they're like, oh,
you want to know what it's like to work with
an asshole, here you go.

Speaker 3 (37:53):
And then he has to like learn this lesson. Sabler's livid.

Speaker 2 (37:58):
He's like, oh, I need a babysitter and crays like
this is no reflection on you. Sibber says this isn't right,
but he has no choice. So Hawkins is addressing the
team and he goes, fuck, I missed one fucking parole
hearing and they let this lunatic out. Sailor comes out
and Ben goes, wow, you know a hawk's areal, take
charge kind of guy. So we know that his PO

(38:20):
has him working at a flower shop, so they're gonna
send Munch to the flower shop, and then the angry
boys are gonna go to the apartment. Benson's gonna go
meet up with the lab in forensics. Everyone is annoyed
by him, but they're following along and Benson is with
an emmy I've never seen in my life. And there's
no evidence on any of the romance items. They did, though,

(38:43):
find the same navy slip knot was used on both victims,
and they found a contact lens. It's for a twenty
over one point fifty prescription. So this guy was blind
on his way out, they said, at least in one eye.
But there's no DNA in the contact. But then they
did find a hair in the drains that did not

(39:04):
match either victim, but both hairs matched each other. So
that's huge, I mean, that's really yeah. So like if
there's one root on any of these hairs and we
get a DNA swab like from you know, when he
was paroled, we could all we could figure this all out.
We got to find this guy. So they're at the
apartment and the men are walking and Hawkins goes as

(39:26):
your partner always this friendly, and Sailor goes, oh no,
she just doesn't like you get him so they kick
the door down and there's you know, Sailor's like, well,
we don't have a warrant, and he goes, well, if
it's a pearle officer, the pearle officers can do what
they want. And he goes, well, I don't see a
parole officer around here, and he goes he'll be here,

(39:46):
doesn't matter, and it's just like this is so the
episode of Sex and the City when like Charlotte and
Samantha learn about like being in like suddenly he's the
guy that has to be like, wait, what about the rules.
It's like, yeah, you never follow the fucking roll. Saber
was like, are we sure this is even the apartment?
And you know, are like, Huang sat our dude, is

(40:09):
middle management meticulous.

Speaker 3 (40:10):
That's not what this apartment is. Like.

Speaker 2 (40:12):
This apartment is bear and messy and there's a lot
of paintings of tugboats and ferry boats and but the
bed has hospital corners. So that's meticulous. But I also
think that's trauma for them being in jail for eighteen years.

Speaker 1 (40:26):
Right, I also do hospital corners, but you're right, jail trauma.
My mom made me do hospital corners. She was like
she always said about making a bed. She's like, if
you're not going to do it right, just don't even
do it. And I was like, okay, and I always
and she taught me to do hospital corners and I
always do them.

Speaker 3 (40:40):
What does that even mean?

Speaker 1 (40:42):
Basically, you take the sheet, you go underneath the back,
like the very bottom of the mattress, tuck it under.
Then you pull up the little corner and then tuck
it in so that it makes a little It's like,
if you don't do it, your sheets are just kind
of hanging like jagged at the point where you tuck
it under the very end. So this like tucks it

(41:03):
in really neat and makes it like a nice corner.

Speaker 3 (41:06):
That's all.

Speaker 1 (41:08):
And I've tried to teach Jared how to do it
about seventy five times and it's not sticking.

Speaker 3 (41:11):
Can't you like cannot do it? He's like, how do
you do that?

Speaker 5 (41:14):
Again?

Speaker 1 (41:14):
I'm like, it's two things, it's two steps. You just
cannot figure it out. Weaponized incompetence anyway, So then we.

Speaker 2 (41:24):
Find newspaper clippings of Celia and Jennifer. The pro officer
finally gets there and he's just like Crosstown traffics a
bitch and it is. So then they go to visit
his mother since he's not at home or at work,
and the mom's like, ugh you and he's like, yep,
miss Barry, it's me and he just loves being a
heel and she's not helping them, so leave her the

(41:47):
fuck alone. She's convinced he was railroaded. He is innocent.
The police still eighteen years from him. She's coughing and
like she's trying a garden and she can't now because
she's self flustered and she wants to be left alone.
She grabs an oxygen tank and like takes some breaths.
Hawkins says, if we find you hiding him again, we're
going to charge you with accessory after the fact, and

(42:08):
she says, you don't scare me, go to hell and
slams the door. Hawkins suggests, like, hey, let's go out
to eat. Roger used to always like eat at this place.

Speaker 3 (42:18):
Let's go.

Speaker 2 (42:19):
So they head to Charlie's Bar and grill and the
bartenders and a bunch of Svus Royalty. He was in
the episode Countdown Deception and Savior, So pretty exciting. Oh
the Misha Martin yeah, yes, yes, yes, Ray Andacelli, we
salute you and your work for SVU. So he knows Roger.

(42:42):
He's like, yeah, he gets a cheeseburger and a root beer.
And he started coming here like a few months ago.
And he's also very specific and can only sit at
one table and he'll even wait hours for it to
open up, and so we like hold it for him,
just like with a little sign. Why not, it doesn't
cost me any trouble. So the boys get burgers and
then Hawkins gets a double bourbon neat and uh, the

(43:05):
most stabler order bottle beer domestic.

Speaker 3 (43:10):
I'm surprised he's even having a drink.

Speaker 1 (43:12):
They've been offered a drink many many times on the
job before and they always are like, no, aer a
beer is barely anything, I guess yeah, And I think
he's just like had enough of dealing with this guy. Yeah,
but a double bourbon in the middle of the weekday,
that's tough.

Speaker 3 (43:30):
It's kind of a wild move.

Speaker 2 (43:32):
It also like I'm a jack on the rocks drinker
and like not with a burger, not for lunch, like
not with dinner, Like that's not that's a like drink
at a bar. That's not a dinner drink, right, But
he obviously has a problem. So they go back and
forth with some attitude. Then angry cop brings up the

(43:53):
grandfather rape case and they bond, and you know, he
tries to give stage advice, but Sadler's just way too haunted.
And so then Stabler is just so tired of losing.
And Roger does a toast and he says, all that's
required for evil to triumph is for good men to
do nothing. Here's to a few good men. Stabler's phone rings,

(44:14):
it's munch. Oh no, he has news. So then the
flower shop boss confirms that this dude did make a
delivery to Jennifer's apartment like the week before she was murdered,
and this is how he found his victims before he
was arrested too, like pre arrests. And so the burgers
come and they're like, wait, where is he? Like here's
saying he's always here, same time, same table, and he goes, oh, well,

(44:37):
sometimes he runs late. He gets caught up looking at
the boats on Peer forty one. So the men only
take one bite of the burger and they run without paying,
and the bartender's annoyed.

Speaker 3 (44:46):
He's like wait, who's gonna pay for this?

Speaker 2 (44:48):
And so they see his ass at the pier and
they separate and slowly walk towards him on either side
of the boardwalk. He's scared and kind of slow, and
so he has I rope around his neck and he
doesn't like, you know, he doesn't want to go back
to jail, and he tries to jump, but Stabler catches
him and he's like they're fighting. It's a lot of fighting.

(45:09):
The dude punches him and Stabler cuffs him. He's screaming,
you know no and crying and we're in cement room
bars and Roger does not want to talk to John
Hawkins one bit. And he goes the night before last,
where were you? And he's like, I was, you know,
with my mom on my birthday. I ate cake and
I went home. I was in bed by ten. He
says he doesn't know who Celia is, but he does

(45:30):
admit to delivering flowers to lots of nice ladies. Hawkins
is like, yeah, and then you killed this one and
he's like, no, I did not. I just don't see
him getting away with the crimes. Like I'm looking at
this man and I just don't see it. So, so
why did he have the newspaper clippings And he's like, well,

(45:51):
my mom gave them to me. My mom told me
to be careful because you were going to try to
put me back in jail. And Sailor goes, hey, you're
not going to go back to jail if you didn't
do it, and he goes, Nope, you're gonna lie. That's
like he lied last time, and Hawkins goes, oh, here
we go. Rogers is like, you know, Hawkins said if
I signed the papers, I could go home.

Speaker 3 (46:11):
And Hawkins is.

Speaker 2 (46:12):
Screaming, and Roger gets fed up and flips the table
and Hawkins and Stabler like against the wall.

Speaker 3 (46:17):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (46:18):
Hawkins like puts him against the wall starts slapping him
in the face, and this guy starts crying for his mom,
and he goes, your mama can't help you now, boy,
and then he threatens the needle in his arm, and
at this point, Roger was crying so hard and he
slides down the wall to the ground and goes, I
want my mom. Stabler's like staring at him like, oh

(46:42):
my god, what about Like this is so then Benson's
telling Hawkins, we gotta cut him loose. We have nothing
on him, and you know John has pissed. Of course,
so then Benson's stablor Cragan in Cabot. They're like all
together around Craigan's desk and it's like a like a
Sistine chapel painting, you know, and trigger warning.

Speaker 3 (47:00):
I'm gonna say a word, Gregan says.

Speaker 2 (47:01):
But Craigan like leans in and goes the guy is
borderline retarded. And then Roger's like, oh, no, he's smarter
than you think, and it's like, no, he's not, Like
what are you talking about. There's no fucking way this
guy committed this crime like with with no like leaving
no evidence and the incision marks and like.

Speaker 1 (47:21):
The unless he's like unless he's pulling like an Edward
Norton primal fear. This man does not know how to
commit crimes. Wait, did you see that for movie Snake?

Speaker 2 (47:30):
I got top one percent of players for the Edward
Norton game. Ooh congratulations, that's a time to shine. I
mean I was just yeah, so rob, so this guy's like,
let me just go at him alone. I'll get him,
don't you worry, And they're like no. His mom reached
out to legal aid and he's lawyered up. I think
they are. They're going to cancel legal aids soon. So

(47:53):
so they're like, you need to back up, like he
has a lawyer, and he runs out of the squad.
He's like so upset. Stammler's like, wait, but this is
like fucked up. The signature was never released. How can
this be a copycat or someone and they're and then
they're like, oh, Roger was never the fucking guy. The
SOHO strangler has been around this whole time, and now
he gets to come back because this guy's out of jail,
like duh, And so we got to get to the

(48:15):
file room to get information on the old case so
we can like get to work. Benson's like, uugh. He
will never accept that he did something wrong, especially if
a woman tells him. And Saber goes, yeah, he's old school,
and Benson goes, no, I think he's a drunk. So
then she was calling other cops to get gossip and
that nobody wants to ride with him.

Speaker 3 (48:36):
Everyone hates him.

Speaker 2 (48:37):
And then guess what when they get to the files,
they've already been checked out by Hawkins.

Speaker 3 (48:42):
Holy shit.

Speaker 2 (48:43):
He checks everything out to cover his ass because he
knows he puts a man in jail that did not
commit the crime. So Stabler goes to his house and
the tape of the confession is playing. So this man
is not doing well. Roger is sitting listening to the confession.
Boxes and papers and everywhere, empty bottles of booze, framed
photos of a family who probably doesn't speak to him anymore.

Speaker 3 (49:06):
So he admits he was wrong.

Speaker 2 (49:10):
Stadler says, don't worry, We're gonna get this guy, and
Hawkins goes up to get another bottle of booze. So
he starts like giving the backstory. He goes at the
time of the case. You know, he'd only had his
shields for one year, but he wanted to show off
and show everyone what a kick ass cop he could be.
And he saw the flower delivery guy and he searched
the truck and he found out like porno and creepy shit.

Speaker 3 (49:32):
He got him to confess. He just wanted it so bad.

Speaker 2 (49:34):
He grilled him over and over and over again to
the point where he convinced him that he fucking did
it and fed him every single detail, and then he
lied and said, if he signed this, you can go
home to your mom. And then he goes the poor
dumb son of a bitch believed me.

Speaker 1 (49:48):
It reminds me so much of Brendan Dacy, like what
happened in making a murderer? Like they just brought in
this like kid, and they kept him there for so long,
and they were just like if you go home, if
you go home, you can go home if you signed
this shit, Like it's so crazy.

Speaker 3 (50:02):
I hate that. I like, I ough, yeah, like solve
the crime. Okay.

Speaker 2 (50:07):
So Sailor's like, you have a chance to make things right.
He goes, I took eighteen years from an innocent man.

Speaker 1 (50:13):
It's just occurring to him now, like it's it's just
occurring to him that maybe this got like that he
did this wrong thing, Like it's fine to be like, oh,
I was a young dumb ass. I was looking for
valor when I was younger, and now I'm it's eighteen
years later and I've never gone back to be like, oh,
by the way, I think I might have fucked up
this case.

Speaker 2 (50:29):
Like it's so I don't know, know, I think that's
why he's a boozhound. Yeah he's drinking away the doubt
the shit. Yeah, yeah, Sabler gives him a speech. John
looks motivated but drunk. So they're gonna go through the
papers and they're just gonna do old fashioned police work.
Sabler asks Arthur Blessard, and Hawkins goes, oh, yeah, one

(50:50):
of the neighbors that I did Roger, and Sailor goes, well,
that name was an an Chilsholm's date book three weeks
before she was murdered, so she as an appointment with
a taxman named ab Holy shit. And then back in
the day, Hawkins used to sketch faces to keep like
all the interviews straight in his head. So he goes
through the old notebook and finds it and says, this

(51:13):
dude was blind as a bat, holy shit, and like
he had these thick glasses in the drawing, and they're
like that could be like the contact from Celia's floor
vision problems. To me, the contact thing is a stretch,
like I don't know.

Speaker 3 (51:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:28):
Also, it feels like this is like a place where
they also would have figured out like who's left handed,
but they just caught it out or something, and that's
why it's like at the beginning, you know.

Speaker 2 (51:39):
And so we're back at the office and since Roger
was in prison. Like twelve more crimes in five different
cities did happen, so he really fucked up, and twelve
women are dead because he was like wanting to do
selfish police work and be cool. So that's really And
like the cities of all the places where the crimes
occurred match up with Arthur Blessard's employment history, so they

(52:03):
could place him at seven of those murders. Chicago's where
he started cutting out the bite marks. Atlanta is where
he started slitting throats. Every case matches his signature, and
then Hawkins comes in and goes and now he works
at twenty six Federal Plaza. He's in New York and
he works for the IRS. So they go over to

(52:24):
the RS and so Celia and Jennifer Files are in
his office. He was using the IRS as a dating
service and in his date book there's a time like
it says a woman's name, five PM and their meeting
and it's four forty five. They have to go now,
so they rush and they hear a glass shattering. Inside
they find this loser. They throw him up against the

(52:45):
wall and they arrest his ass. Benson is talking to Beverly,
the woman who is about to be murdered.

Speaker 3 (52:51):
We can presume he.

Speaker 2 (52:52):
Contacted her about irregularities on her tax return. She went
to the office. He was really nice and they worked
on her taxes. Is that a thing that the IRL does? No,
you cannot get through to the IRS.

Speaker 1 (53:04):
And I don't think the IRS is ever trying to
help you, Like, I don't think the IRS is ever Like, hey,
what happens if you have irregularities on your taxes? Is
they just like fine you and fuck you? You know,
like they're not like, come on in, let's work this out.

Speaker 3 (53:16):
Like no. But so then she goes, this is even stranger.

Speaker 2 (53:19):
She goes, I had moved from Ithaca and I couldn't
fly my accountant out Like what, yeah, I guess people
are were there not even fax machines at this point?
What are we I know about fax machines in a phone?
Oh yeah, I couldn't afford to fly my accountant down
from Ithaca.

Speaker 3 (53:38):
What. I just think that's season three to even be.

Speaker 1 (53:44):
To be an option of I'm flying my accountant in
is crazy?

Speaker 2 (53:47):
Yeah, So you offer to take her to lunch. So
then while she's at work, he gets a call. She
gets a call from him saying that he accidentally double
booked and wanted to make it up to her by
taking her to dinner, and he then but it cuts back,
so now it cuts to cement room bars. So now
we're going from woodroom blinds with her to cement room
bars with him. And he's like, oh, dinner was her

(54:08):
idea and she goes, well, things started getting weird, lots
of questions about my personal life. And tonight he showed
up at my apartment with flowers and she didn't want
to let him in, but thought that she had to,
you know, let him down gently for tax reasons, so
he didn't fuck her in the audit. So now we
have a chat session in the center room. Finn says
that they searched his apartment and found a contact case

(54:29):
with a single contact, so he hasn't gotten new contacts.
Like all of these don't make sense, like or like what,
So now he's just been blind this whole time. So
then he also has a flower receipt to the store.
He was setting up Roger with those flowers, and he
did lawyer up, so they can't like talk to him
right now, but you know, we have to find out

(54:51):
how we can keep him. We have to figure out
how to make a case so he does not go home.
So instead of the new murders, how about we relook
at the old stuff and see, like when he was
less experienced, if he fucked up and find some old
crime evidence. So we find some DNA, but it's a
mix of two DNA. Oh this is so this is
honestly the craziest episode. It's like all of these tropes

(55:13):
all together. They don't make sense, Like nothing makes sense.
So basically they find DNA, but it's a mix of
two DNAs. So they have to separate the DNA with
the victim and then like the suspect. So we need
to but she's been buried for eighteen years, so we're
gonna dig her up.

Speaker 3 (55:29):
We're gonna digger up.

Speaker 2 (55:30):
We're not gonna get an old hair brush or clothes
or like see if the parents have something, we're gonna
go straight to. Let's dig her up so we can
separate these DNAs. So they cut to two people that
look like American Gothic. They say no, They're like, let
Marsha rest in peace. But they try to convince her,
and Hawkins is like, we know how difficult this is
for you, and she says, no, you don't and that

(55:52):
is true, like fuck you, Hawkins, and then you know,
they plead with her, and they finally do convince the parents.
So we see this casket getting pulled up from the ground.
They got what they needed, they separate the DNA matches.
So then they go to arrest him. They hear noises inside.
They break down the door like all guns open, they
spin around, windows open. He's climbing up on the fire escape,

(56:16):
so Hawkins climbs up and then Stabler follows as well.
It's strange to climb up and not down for a
guilty man, but okay, So now we're on the roof
and there's a chase. Stabler finally finds them. Arthur is
hanging off the roof. John Hawkins is standing over him,
beauty in the Beast style, and he's gripping and like begging,
and Hawkins is stepping on his hands and Sailor's like,

(56:38):
don't do it, and the man is screaming. Hawkins is
thinking Stabler's watching. They pull his ass up together and
Hawkins is like, you're gonna let an old drunk man
do the salon?

Speaker 3 (56:48):
Or are you're gonna help me?

Speaker 2 (56:49):
So then they pull his ass up together, they put
the hardware on his ass, and then yeah, they read
him his rights. Dick wolf Baby. Honestly, like such an
interesting story. I wish this was like a season seven
episode because there's too many crazy things.

Speaker 3 (57:04):
Yeah, sometimes there's.

Speaker 2 (57:07):
Digging, the body, the left hand thing, the contact, like,
I don't know, it's just it's a lot of goofiness.

Speaker 3 (57:14):
But such a good story. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1 (57:18):
And you know, sadly based on a couple of real things,
which we will get into now. This is based on
a couple cases. So the first one I'm going to
talk about is the Albert de Salvo case, who was
also known as the Boston Strangler.

Speaker 3 (57:40):
So in Boston this is like famous.

Speaker 1 (57:43):
No, I there's other stranglers, the Hillside Strangler, there's like
other ones.

Speaker 3 (57:49):
So I don't know how famous this.

Speaker 1 (57:50):
One is because it's from like the sixties. And yeah,
it's from the sixties, so I don't know. But I
would say, like the majority of the big ones we've
heard over like seventies, eighties, but this one's like earlier,
so I don't know. But inn eighteen month period in
Boston between nineteen sixty two and nineteen sixty four, so

(58:11):
eighteen months, like a very short period of thirteen single
women are found murdered strangemen also thirteen in an eighteen
month period, which is a lot Strangely, the victims range
in age from like nineteen to eighty five, like they're
from different socio economic backgrounds, different races, like which is

(58:31):
you know, weird, Like most of these guys have like
a type or like an mo or whatever. So most
of the victims were sexually assaulted and strangled in their apartments,
though the eldest victim did die of a heart attack.
At two were fatally stabbed. One was also horribly beaten.
I mean, they're obviously getting a lot of the details
for the episode from this. The last victim was also
the youngest, nineteen year old Mary Sullivan, found murdered in

(58:54):
her apartment on Charles Street in Beacon Hill, where you
and I have been together at my friend's mother's place
is three blocks from where this happened. There was no
sign of force entry at any of the crime scenes,
meaning the victims either knew their killer or he was
perhaps like a service person coming to repair something and
authorities were looking for a single killer.

Speaker 3 (59:16):
They did not think he worked with anybody.

Speaker 1 (59:18):
Even though this string of murders was amply covered in
the media, the cops were not close to catching him,
like they had no idea who this was. Meanwhile, in
late nineteen sixty four, the Boston police were trying to
solve a bunch of rapes that had been committed by
a purp that they called the Measuring Man, which, if
you remember the episode or just look like one, was

(59:40):
what they nicknamed this guy who would pretend that he
was a modeling scout to lure women and then he
would sexually assault them. But this purp was called the
measuring Man or the green Man. That's who this rapist
was that they're looking for. Around the same time in Boston,
on October twenty seventh, a stranger entered a young woman's
home in East Cambridge posing as a detective, tied her

(01:00:00):
to the bed, sexually assaulted her, and then left after
undoing her restraints and apologizing. The woman's description led police
to identify the assailant as Albert de Salvo. Once his
photo was published, a lot of other women came forward
to id him as their rapist, and while he was
being held in jail, for these rapes. He confessed to
another inmate named George Nasser that he was the Boston Strangler.

Speaker 3 (01:00:23):
He isn't that the oh that's Larry Nasser. That's Larry Nasser.
But I did think of that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
He told this inmate allegedly that he was the Boston
Strangler and told him all these grizzly details. Nasar tells
his lawyer, who is da Da da Eth Lee Bailey,
And you might recognize him as a member of O. J.
Simpson's team of lawyers. He represented Patty Hurst like he was.
He's like a big defense lawyer of our time. He
just passed away like a few years ago, I think,

(01:00:52):
and he eventually became Dessalvo's lawyer. And the wild thing
is DeSalvo was never tried for any of the murders.
In nineteen sixty seven, he was sentenced to life in
prison for the rapes as well as robbery charges, and
he was in when he was I guess in prison,
he recanted his confession of the Boston Strangler deaths, and

(01:01:15):
six years later, in nineteen seventy three, he was stabbed
to death in his cell, allegedly by Robert Wilson, who
was connected to the winter Hill Gang.

Speaker 3 (01:01:22):
I don't know much about them, but and.

Speaker 1 (01:01:25):
Then the Robert Wilson was tried for the murder and
the trial ended in a hung jury. So no one
pays for Disalvo's death. But also there have been a
lot of what's kind of wild is that there have
been a lot of theories that these crimes were committed
by more than one person because the mos were different
and like the you know, the victims were all different
ages and like backgrounds and stuff. Also, Dissalvo apparently got

(01:01:49):
details wrong about the crimes. For example, he didn't strangle
Sullivan with his bare hands, as he claimed, she was
strangled by a ligature, so forensic pathologists Mike Golbaden our
favorite also said that DeSalvo incorrectly stated the time of
the victim's death, and he got that wrong with a
few other murders as well. So there are some theories

(01:02:10):
that Nasser was the strangler and that he gave Albert
enough details for him to confess. Nasser said later, I
guess told some news outlet. There's an interview with him
from jail where he's like, oh, yeah, I broker the
whole thing. I wanted Albert to confess and for flee
Bailey to get him a book deal. Then we would
all make a lot of money, and Albert went along

(01:02:31):
with it. So there are also theories that he's behind
Albert's jailhouse murder, so who knows. But in twenty thirteen,
after all of this conjecture, Albert DeSalvo was definitively linked
to one of the Boston Strangler murders, the murder of
Mary Sullivan, so he definitely killed Mary. It's unclear whether
he was responsible for all of these murders. In order

(01:02:53):
to get his conviction, much like the episode, they had
to exhume Mary's body for DNA testing, and that took
place in October of two thousand when the case was reopened.
They exhumed Albert DeSalvo's body the following year, so two
thousand and one, and then for some reason, not until
twenty thirteen did they definitively link to.

Speaker 3 (01:03:10):
Salvo to Sullivan.

Speaker 1 (01:03:12):
So it's like so funny in SVU when we get
these DNA results back in ten minutes, and in other
crimes it takes truly twelve years to even connect a
victim and a murderer. So that's one case, the Boston
strangler case. Who's to say what actually happened with that one?
This next one is crazy in so let me take

(01:03:32):
you back to Fort Lauderdale nineteen seventy nine. A string
of murders of young women rocked the community. But I'm
going to start out and tell you it's a black community.
All the victims are black, and so this doesn't have
nearly as much media coverage as you would expect it
would have had. July ninth, they find the body of
Ernesty German twenty three near high school. July twenty seventh,

(01:03:53):
Sonya Marion thirteen found in the exact same area. August seventh,
Terry Gene Cummings twenty one, also you're the high school.
August twenty fourth, Kathy Moore twenty four, was found a
few blocks from the high school. September second, Wanda Virga
is raped and murdered in Miami. I didn't know this
until I just went there a year or so ago,
But Miami and Fort Lauderdale are right there next to
each other, so the Miami and Fort Lauderdale crimes are close.

(01:04:16):
September fifth, Jerry Frank Townsend twenty seven is arrested for
sexual assault by police in Miami. He is intellectually disabled,
with the mental capacity of an eight year old, they say,
And police say that while he's being questioned in this
sexual assault, he confessed to Wanda Virgo's murder. Soon the
police tacked on charges for her and the other four

(01:04:39):
murders and rapes that I just mentioned, and then they
claimed Townshend had confessed and had led them to the
crime scenes. Days after mister Townshend confessed, the police discovered,
much like in this episode, that he had an alibi
for Sonya Marian's murder. He had punched into work that
morning at his job, like at an auto mechanic, The

(01:04:59):
police said. Townsend said he'd killed her the night before,
but her mother's like, no, she was with me the
night before, she left for school the next morning and
that's the last time I saw her, So he's getting
details incorrect. Within a few weeks of his arrest, Townsend
had admitted to the murders of thirteen women, including in
Tampa and California, which he said he committed when working

(01:05:19):
for a traveling carnival in nineteen seventy six. In nineteen
seventy seven, I don't know about any of these California victims,
like they're not in any of the research that I found.
But four of the other victims were from nineteen seventy
three Thelma jen Bell, Naomi Gamble, who was only fifteen,
and Barbara Ann Brown, all in Fort Lauderdale, and then
in nineteen seventy seven Dorothy Gibson, seventeen in Miami. Despite

(01:05:41):
a psychiatric evaluation that put his IQ between fifty five
and sixty eight, which is below the level of intellectual disability,
he was declared competent to stand trial because America is
fucking killing it. He went to trial for three of
the rape murders, and the case was heavily relying on
his confessions. The defense argued that the confessions were not
real and that Townshend just wanted to tell them what

(01:06:01):
they wanted to hear, much like this guy in the
episode July thirtieth of nineteen eighty. He is convicted for
the murders of Naomi Gamble and Barbara am Brown, but
acquitted for the murder of Thelma Gene Bell. He sentenced
to life in prison, with the possibility of parole after
twenty five years. I also don't understand the parole after
like violent rapes and murders. I don't understand how parole

(01:06:23):
is a possibility. But it's the eighties. In eighty two,
he pled guilty to murder in the deaths of Dorothy
Gibson and Wanda Virga because this is now separate trial
because it's Miami. He also pled no contests to the
murders of Terry Gen Cummings and Kathy Moore got life again.
They dropped the charges in the murders of Ernestine German
and Sonia Marion. And he also pled guilty to that

(01:06:44):
very first rape that brought him that the cops brought
him in for in.

Speaker 3 (01:06:47):
Nineteen seventy nine.

Speaker 1 (01:06:48):
So sixteen years later, in nineteen ninety eight, the family
of Sonia Marion wants to reopen the case. She did
not get justice because you know, they dropped the charges
two years later in two in At this point, Townshend
has been in jail for twenty years at least. The
Innocence Project requests a DNA that the DNA in the
case be tested, and huge shock, it does not match Townsend.

(01:07:11):
It matches a guy named Eddie Lee Moseley. So they
obviously tested the DNA from other cases. He did not
match the DNA in the Terry Jen Cummings case or
Naomi Gamble, both were connected to Eddie Lee Moseley. There
was not enough DNA or no DNA to test in
the cases of Thelmagen Bell Barbara and Brown Kathy Moore

(01:07:31):
in Ernestine, German And eventually, though, all of his convictions
were vacated and dismissed, and he was released from prison
at the age of forty nine in two thousand and
one June sixteenth of two thousand and one, after almost
twenty two years in prison. Because he was just an
intellectually disabled man who the cops said, you did all
this stuff, and he's like, I did all this stuff,
and he just but he did sue the city of

(01:07:51):
Miami and he settled for four point two million dollars, so.

Speaker 3 (01:07:56):
A tiny silver lining.

Speaker 1 (01:07:57):
And if that is not fucked up enough for you,
Townsend was not the only guy who took the fall
for Eddie Lee Moseley's crimes. Another man named Franklee Smith
served fifteen years on death row for the murder and
sexual assault of an eight year old girl in Fort
Lauderdale in April of nineteen eighty five. Also, this man
was intellectually disabled. The girl's mother wrongfully identified him based

(01:08:18):
solely on photos she'd been shown. There was no other
evidence linking him to this crime, but he was found
guilty and sentenced to death in nineteen eighty six. He
had always claimed he was innocent, and then sadly he
died of cancer on death row in two thousand and eleven.
Months later, DNA exonerated him and pointed to you got it,
Eddie Lee Moseley. So I'd love to hear more information

(01:08:41):
about how the death penalty is good because I'm not
seeing it.

Speaker 3 (01:08:45):
So who is Eddie Lee Moseley.

Speaker 1 (01:08:47):
Eddie Lee Moseley is this absolute monster of the Fort
Lauderdale community. He's thought to have raped as many as
one hundred and fifty women and girls. He was also
suspected of murdering two young girls in the early seventies,
but there wasn't an evidence. He was brought in after
more than forty women identified him as their attacker. After
one woman was able to get a description of him,

(01:09:10):
and she identified him then from photos, and then after
all the women saw the photo, forty women were like,
that's the guy who attacked me. His psychiatric evaluation deemed
him as quote unquote insane. That's what's written everywhere I
look him up. I'm sure that's not like a great term,
but that's what they were saying. So he was committed
to a state hospital where he spent five years, and

(01:09:30):
while he was away, no similar crimes were were reported
in that area.

Speaker 3 (01:09:34):
But good news, they cured.

Speaker 1 (01:09:35):
Him and he was deemed no longer a danger to society,
and he's released in nineteen seventy nine. He goes to
live with his parents, and over the next seven months,
seven young girls are raped and murdered, all near his parents' house.
The following year, he's worried that the cops are on
too him. I don't understand after two of these murders,
how they're not finding the sky.

Speaker 3 (01:09:53):
But again, it is the late seventies.

Speaker 1 (01:09:55):
I guess there's not as much CCTV or DNA and
all kinds of ways that we catch people now. But
the following year he moves to Lakeland, Florida. There he
is very quickly questioned about the disappearance of two young girls,
but he's let go because they never found the bodies.
He goes back to Fort Lauderdale. He gets arrested for
an attempted rape and he's found guilty and sentence to

(01:10:15):
fifteen years. While in prison, they do find the bones
of these two missing girls. It does not say whether
they actually link them to him, but I'm going to
say probably.

Speaker 3 (01:10:25):
He was also a terror in prison.

Speaker 1 (01:10:27):
He attacked other inmates physically and sexually, threatened to burn
the place down, like just the usual, like just you know,
wild prison character. But his family hired a lawyer and
they got his conviction overturned because his lawyer never got
him a psych exam, which is like, what's going on.

(01:10:47):
That's incompetence, Like why would you not have your client
examined when he's got a history, which he does, by
the way, he has a history of mental instability and
into intellectual disability, Like you I don't understan, why you
wouldnt give an exam? Feels very amateur. He gets a
new trial and there the judge gives him a shorter sentence,
and since he'd already done three years, they let him

(01:11:07):
out on parole. The system works. Now it's nineteen eighty
four and Mosley's the suspect in the murders of Geraldine Barfield,
age thirty six, and Emma Cook, age fifty four, both
raped and then suffocated. The same year, he's arrested for
raping a twenty two year old and he pleads not
guilty at trial, claiming that the sex was consensual, and
his lawyers got the jury to believe that even though

(01:11:28):
this man has a long, long rap sheet. This is
how much women are not believed, especially in the fucking
early eighties. He was acquitted, and he's once again let
out into the world. And I do wonder if this
guy was accused of killing old white men, if perhaps
they would not have been so quick to let him go.
But because he's killing mostly black women and girls, it
doesn't matter. After he commits two more murders, I've honestly

(01:11:52):
lost track of how many he did and how many
he was suspected of at this point, but I want
to assume that he did all the ones he was
accused of. The local authorities finally call the FBI, after
like a decade of this man terrorizing the area. They're like,
let's bring in the experts now. So the FBI built
like does up a profile, and obviously it fits Eddie
Lee Moseley, Like you know, they figure it's like it's

(01:12:15):
this guy. In eighty seven, he's once again the suspect
and rape and of a rape and murder by strangulation
of central love age twenty four and months later he
but again they keep going he's a suspect, But then
they never say whether he gets brought in for all this.
He's getting questioned, but I think maybe there's simply he's
not leaving DNA, or he's just like not leaving yor

(01:12:37):
just not figuring it out. Months later, he is arrested
for theft, and by then they had finally matched his
blood type to seamen that they had found on murder victims,
which was eventually a match. So they bring Moseley in.
They confront him about his involvement in all these crimes
after almost two decades at this point, and he tries
to defend himself. He's making up alibis, like he's fucking

(01:12:59):
up details, he's fucking up dates like they it's him.
Eventually he confesses to the murders of Teresa Giles and
Emma Cook. He stood trial in nineteen eighty seven. Numerous
Fort Lauderdale's sex workers testified that he was aggressive towards them,
that he would like attack women with like with impunity,
like in big crowds, like in front of other people.

Speaker 3 (01:13:18):
He was not scared to do it.

Speaker 1 (01:13:20):
And much like Townsend, the man who served at who
he's like getting with every Yeah, he's getting away with it.
But much like Townsend and Smith, the two men who
you know took the fall for his crimes, he had
an IQ found to be fifty one, which is below
the average intelligence rate, and therefore he was deemed not
competent to stand trial. I have no idea why Smith

(01:13:43):
was not afforded that same or Townshend were afforded that
same thing. But this guy seemed maybe has better lawyers
because he was deemed not competent to stand trial. And
so in October of eighty seven he sent to a
Florida State hospital and he's there for a long time.
Finally in two thousand, gets tested and he's connected with
a ton of murders, most of the ones that I

(01:14:04):
mentioned before. Then twenty nine year old Loretta Young Brown
killed in eighty four, thirty four year old that a
Turner killed in seventy three, thirteen year old Sonya Marian
who was the one who we mentioned earlier. Her family
never got justice originally, and then finally she was connected
to him. Twenty one year old Terry Gene Cummings who
I mentioned, and then Emma Cook and Teresa Giles who

(01:14:24):
he confessed to, as well as eight year old Chandra
Whitehead who was the young girl who's murder and sexual assault.
Frankly Smith spent the rest of his life serving time
for so. Fort Lauderdale police wanted to arrest Mosley for
these murders, but psych psychiatric tests like he's in he's
basically in the mental hospital, and Fort Lauderdale's like, no,
we want to arrest him for these murders, but the

(01:14:44):
psychiatric tests that they're giving him still continue to find him,
like you know, incompetent to stand trial.

Speaker 3 (01:14:50):
So he remains at a mental hospital.

Speaker 1 (01:14:52):
During his treatment there, he is apparently a model patient,
friendly followed rules, got into no trouble so and in
treatment this is a person who would likely not have
committed these crimes. And he was eventually transferred to a
low risk unit and was allowed to leave the hospital
on supervised visits to Walmart, and he remained in mental

(01:15:13):
health facilities until he died in May of twenty twenty
of COVID in one of these facilities.

Speaker 3 (01:15:19):
So there is, like I.

Speaker 1 (01:15:21):
Said, wildly not a lot of information about these this case.
Like there's some a lot of Florida cential articles, some
I could get to somewhere behind a bay wall. Also, these,
like I said, these crimes were all perpetrated on black
women and girls by black men in a black area
Fort Lauderdale. So I don't think the media gave it
the coverage that it would have if it was like

(01:15:41):
I mean, this is like Ted Bundy levels of murderers
and sexual assaults. But also every single person either committing
these crimes or being accused of them was intellectually disabled,
like Eddie Lee Mosley. Even though I agree he committed
these horrific crimes, he was exhibiting signs of mental instability
and in inellectual disability his entire life.

Speaker 3 (01:16:01):
Like as a child, he.

Speaker 1 (01:16:02):
Had learning disorders, and he had an entarot grade amnesia
which caused him to struggle in school. He was forced
out of school in third grade. He's from low income,
he lives in terrible conditions, and so he obviously turns
to a life of crime eventually, So it's kind of
I mean eventually, it's like it really just feels like

(01:16:23):
it's a failure of like the system to get these
this failure of the justice system that two of these
men went to jail for crimes they didn't come in
and then it's a failure from Eddie Lee Moseley that
he was never given any like mental health support and
became a serial killer and rapist. So anyway, that's that

(01:16:44):
on that And so it wasn't like unlike the episode
where this guy is calculated, Like I don't think Eddie
Lee Moseley was like, oh cool, like these guys are
going down for my crimes. I think it was like
a coincidence and you know, racism that they just grabbed
a different guy for this crime. But it's like it's
different from the episode in the sense that like it
wasn't this mastermind who like moved to other states and

(01:17:06):
then like started working after the guy got paroled.

Speaker 3 (01:17:10):
Damn. But that's that. Yeah, so many victims, so.

Speaker 1 (01:17:15):
Many, But I know that was really depressing. But we
do have a guest coming up, so let's cleanse the ballot. Okay, guys,
a lot of you have been begging for guests, and
guests are back. Our guest today is a prolific film

(01:17:39):
and television actor. He was the lead in several movies
in the eighties, like The Lords of Discipline and White
of the Eye. He also starred in films like Firestarter
with Drew Barrymore and An Officer and a Gentleman.

Speaker 3 (01:17:50):
But you know him.

Speaker 1 (01:17:51):
Best as the unhinged cop who doesn't follow the rules
John Hawk Hawkins. Please enjoy our chat with David Keith.
You've been on Law and Order Criminal Intent as well.
You've been on SVU, Like when you first were casts
on this episode in season three, did you ever in
a million years think that they'd be currently in season

(01:18:13):
twenty six. I mean, like, this is one of the
longest running live shows of all time.

Speaker 4 (01:18:18):
I mean, it's got a built in audience that will
never go away.

Speaker 3 (01:18:22):
And yeah, we're we're right here.

Speaker 2 (01:18:26):
We're assuming this was an offer only there was no auditioning.

Speaker 4 (01:18:31):
Correct correct, Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was, but I
can't remember for sure. But yeah, I hadn't done a
lot of episodic at that point. But the script was
just great. I mean I read the script and just
loved it. And that's a part of a longer story
that we'll get to. When we started tell us that.

Speaker 3 (01:18:55):
Different stuff, tell us tell us.

Speaker 4 (01:18:58):
Well, you know how when you're in episodic TV, okay,
you get the white pages first, and that's the one
from an actual writer, one of the writers on staff,
and it was terrific. Well, as soon as the colored pages,
the pink and the grain and the blues started coming in,
and it was it had been you know, there were

(01:19:19):
some dialogue changes from I guess the studio. Nobody ever
told us who, but they said, and it started kind
of diluting the what I thought the original story was.

Speaker 5 (01:19:35):
It just it didn't have the same impact.

Speaker 4 (01:19:38):
And so, being a you know, spoiled movie actor, I
started complaining about that. And and Ted Kotcheff, who was
directing us. You know, Ted was the I don't know
what they call it, but he was the he was
the main director for the series.

Speaker 5 (01:19:57):
So he was there all the time and he direct maybe.

Speaker 4 (01:20:01):
Two three episodes a season, and then he would oversee
the different episodic directors that would come in. So Ted
was directing this episode and he agreed with me one
hundred percent on the white pages. So it became white.
Every morning I'd carry around those white pages and I say,
this is what I'd like to say. He'd say, do it,

(01:20:22):
say it, and that the next time I was going
a law in order.

Speaker 5 (01:20:28):
As soon as I suggested.

Speaker 4 (01:20:29):
One change, I was told, no change whatsoever. You say
what's on the page. So it didn't I guess it
didn't go over well with the the you know, the
big wigs.

Speaker 5 (01:20:42):
But on that one we ended up shooting the white pages.

Speaker 3 (01:20:45):
So it was well that Ted was on your side too.

Speaker 5 (01:20:50):
Yeah, you got to go with great. I loved working
with him.

Speaker 2 (01:20:54):
Do you remember some of the things that you hated?
What were they trying to do? I'm glad you stuck
to your guns, because we love the I don't.

Speaker 4 (01:21:02):
Remember. I remember there was one line that Chris has
when they first talk about me coming into the case,
and he says it's something about yeah, this is wide. Yes,
that line vanished and I said I want that line back,

(01:21:23):
and Chris didn't really like it, and because he thought
it was like pumping me up too much or something.
I said, no, man, it's sarcasm. Yes, this guy's a
loose cannon, and that says he's a loose cannon because
why it over was a total loose cannon. Yeah, you know,
he wasn't some law abiding you know, Marshall. So that line,

(01:21:45):
you know, Chris greed and we've got that line back
in but I don't remember the rest.

Speaker 3 (01:21:50):
That's a great memory because that line.

Speaker 1 (01:21:53):
Talked about it when we did the recap of the episode, like,
you know, you you come in and we're like, how
does he know?

Speaker 3 (01:22:00):
Are they old partners?

Speaker 5 (01:22:01):
Like?

Speaker 1 (01:22:01):
And then you find out he took his class at
the academy. But you're right like right away, you know, oh,
this is like a guy that one of these guest
stars that comes in and plays by his own rules,
you know, and.

Speaker 3 (01:22:12):
That you just says it right there.

Speaker 1 (01:22:13):
So glad you want for that line because it definitely
still works.

Speaker 2 (01:22:18):
Yeah, and yeah you were a dressed in all black.
Did you know any of the actors beforehand?

Speaker 5 (01:22:24):
No?

Speaker 4 (01:22:24):
Oh yeah yeah yeah Belzer Belser, Yeah, we did a
movie in nineteen ninety in Miami called.

Speaker 5 (01:22:33):
Oh Crap. It was with Cindy lawper Cool.

Speaker 3 (01:22:37):
Oh my gosh. Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:22:39):
Yeah, she's married to one of the lawyers on the
show which where oh yeah, yeah, yeah, he's a recurring lawyer.

Speaker 3 (01:22:45):
Her husband.

Speaker 5 (01:22:47):
Is that David?

Speaker 3 (01:22:48):
Yes, yes, see David.

Speaker 4 (01:22:51):
David had a small part in the movie too, and
he was down there all the time and we became friends.

Speaker 5 (01:22:55):
But I haven't talked to I haven't talked.

Speaker 4 (01:22:57):
To I ran into Cindy at the d n C,
but I haven't I haven't reconnected with David. But yeah,
that's that's how I knew Belzer, and we've remained friends.
So we went out to dinner, and you know, I
just love Belzer. I love being around him. I love
here and everything he says.

Speaker 5 (01:23:17):
I love him politically, Yeah, you know, he just he's
just one of my heroes.

Speaker 3 (01:23:22):
Often running nineteen ninety one.

Speaker 5 (01:23:24):
That's it.

Speaker 3 (01:23:25):
Yeah, often running our producer.

Speaker 4 (01:23:28):
I think the original titles Moon over Miami and they
changed it.

Speaker 2 (01:23:31):
Okay, Okay, the cover is so cute. It's a drawing
of you guys.

Speaker 5 (01:23:38):
Yeah, those drawings are always really great.

Speaker 3 (01:23:42):
You I love it.

Speaker 2 (01:23:46):
Well, now I'm seeing the two Jakes in here. That's wild.
I was just talking about film Newark. Someone told me
to watch Chinatown today. I can't even believe it.

Speaker 5 (01:23:53):
Watched Chinatown and watch the two Jakes back to back.

Speaker 3 (01:23:56):
I can't wait because they're what.

Speaker 5 (01:24:00):
Well, there is a twenty year sequel.

Speaker 4 (01:24:04):
Twenty years later, Jack plays the same character, and I'm
the son. I played the son who's now a detective
of one of the original Nemesis Police Nemesis of Jack's character,
Jake Gidtis And yeah, but you know, Jack wrote that script,
so it's man, it's as hard to follow as sitting

(01:24:25):
with him in a long conversations it is. It's I
read the script and when I went to see the movie,
I was like, now, what, Oh, yeah, you know. Yeah,
it's very very meticulously built, and that a lot of
you know, misleading information intentionally, so it's an interesting movie.

Speaker 3 (01:24:48):
Wow. Cool.

Speaker 1 (01:24:50):
I got to watch that. I've seen Chinatown, but not
the two Jakes. I got to watch that, and.

Speaker 4 (01:24:54):
I loved working with Jack. He directed it as well,
and he's the reason I became an actor. His performance
An Easy Writer is when I switched from wanting to
be a trial lawyer to wanting to be an actor.

Speaker 3 (01:25:08):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (01:25:09):
When he did that little role an Easy Writer, I
just went, I can do that. That's the kind of
actor I want to be. I never really wanted to
be a leading man. Of course, Jack's both. He's a
character leading man and that's it's always the dream. But
there's just so many, so much room for character leading men.
You know, they either have to be good looking or

(01:25:30):
o never both.

Speaker 3 (01:25:33):
Oh god, cool.

Speaker 2 (01:25:34):
So when you get on set or you meet Jack,
did you meet him before? Do you let him know
like you're the reason I become an actor? Or do
you kind of keep it cool?

Speaker 4 (01:25:43):
No? No, No, I told him he was the reason I
became an actor. But that was several years before, maybe
a decade before, when I met.

Speaker 5 (01:25:50):
Him at on the Rocks, lou Adler's place on Sunset.

Speaker 4 (01:25:54):
I was there with my manager, Aaron Russ Russo, and
he introduced me to Jack, and you know, we saw
each other off and on. We were always you know,
I was always pulling for Doctor J in the seventy
six ers and he was with Showtime and the Lakers.
So when they played in eighty three, we were we
were across the court from each.

Speaker 5 (01:26:14):
Other, you know, talking trash.

Speaker 4 (01:26:17):
And you know, we well, we talked about sports more
than really movies.

Speaker 3 (01:26:23):
Yeah. And I see you're wearing a ball's hat, right.

Speaker 5 (01:26:27):
You got it right.

Speaker 4 (01:26:27):
I'm so glad you didn't say Texas because people see
the orange, they see the tea.

Speaker 5 (01:26:33):
They see Texas and I say, bite your tongue. So
I'm glad to see my husband.

Speaker 1 (01:26:38):
My husband moved to Knoxville halfway through high school and
finished high school there, and my brother in law still
lives there. So I've been in Knoxville a bunch of times. Yeah, yeah,
I found a bunch. It's really it's a it's a
great tone. Yeah, But I've been there on game day
where it's like the streets are like empty because everyone's
just at the game.

Speaker 3 (01:26:55):
And then you just see all the burnt orange color
come out.

Speaker 4 (01:27:00):
Not burnt what is Texas? Well, it's just regular orange orange. Yeah,
And it's the color of an orange peel, really, and
and all the other oranges like Syracuse are that you know,
traffic cone orange, and Clemson and all they're they're that,

(01:27:20):
you know, very bright orange, and we're a little more muted.

Speaker 5 (01:27:24):
But Ora, you know where the color came from.

Speaker 4 (01:27:27):
It actually came for the yellow and white daisies that
grew on up on airshol back in the eighteen hundreds
when the team was first founded, and they took those.
So it was a yellow orange yellow at first and
then darkened as the years went on.

Speaker 5 (01:27:41):
That's that's where they actually go.

Speaker 3 (01:27:43):
Are a historian of the Valls. I love that.

Speaker 4 (01:27:46):
Well, the thing around here is the falls are too
important to enjoys. It transcends funk because it's like having
a close relative major surgery every Friday, and will they
live or it's just you know, my father, you didn't

(01:28:07):
go around until about Wednesday if Tennessee lost a football game,
And it's just my grandfather's were going, you know, shortly
after the turn of the century, and our tickets have
been We've had these same tickets for four generations. Now
my kids are the fourth generation. And did they go there, Well,

(01:28:28):
my son's thirteen, but my daughter's twenty three, and she
recently got a theater degree and has moved to New
York and trying to be an actress.

Speaker 5 (01:28:37):
She went there.

Speaker 4 (01:28:38):
Yeah, I think he probably will too. I do have
one other interesting you know, I thought we'd be talking
about SVU. Well we were there, so I had planned
you know, the script, the script part.

Speaker 5 (01:28:53):
So Ted, as I said, was directing this episode.

Speaker 4 (01:28:56):
And this was at the end of a shoot that
instead of one season, they shot two seasons with no hiatus.
WHOA and the cast was just.

Speaker 5 (01:29:12):
It was just exhausted. They were sick of it.

Speaker 4 (01:29:16):
They wanted a break, and this was the last show.
So Ted comes in and he shoots this thing like
a movie. I mean more setups per day, Like you'd
think you'd finish the scene and he'd have like six
more angles he wanted to shoot. And I was loving
it because to me, what I dreaded about TV was

(01:29:39):
that it would just be, you know, shoot a master,
shoot four close ups and move on. And he shot
it like a like a like an expensive movie, and
so it was really wearing the kids out there, long
long days, fourteen fifteen sixteen hour days, and the cast
was just over it. And I was like, yeah, oh yeah,

(01:30:02):
I was thinking of that.

Speaker 5 (01:30:02):
I know, if you'd have time to do it all,
we have time to do it.

Speaker 4 (01:30:05):
So I was in heaven with Ted working our asses often,
but the rest cast of not so much.

Speaker 2 (01:30:14):
Well, it probably helps Sabler's character, but also Saylor's kind
of over it during all this. You know, Maloney is
like annoyed with the like he's in a bad mood.

Speaker 3 (01:30:24):
So maybe a little bit.

Speaker 5 (01:30:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:30:27):
Well, you know, they were always great to me and
always friendly with me, and you know, it was never
like oh, David's on Ted's side, but you know, and
I told him, I said, look, man, you know, i
haven't worked in two or three months and I'm just
digging this and christ just goes, yeah, but we are

(01:30:47):
just so tired.

Speaker 5 (01:30:48):
Yeah yeah, I said, I got it, buddy, I got it.

Speaker 4 (01:30:51):
But you know, so I was hopping around the set,
you know, happier in a big and poop.

Speaker 3 (01:30:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:30:58):
Well, we've talked to a couple of the regulars that
said that, like, that's what's so great about the way
that the show is set up like that, guest stars
come in with all this energy and like new energy
for them all the time, you know, so that they
didn't get bored with I think doing the same kind
of show and like a procedural and you know, the
same cast, Like they get people like you that come
in and are like, yeah, you know, so, I bet you,

(01:31:19):
I bet you helped their energy levels a little bit.

Speaker 3 (01:31:22):
Well yeas. And also shot like a movie. I mean
it was told kind of like a movie.

Speaker 2 (01:31:27):
Will you tell us do you remember shooting the scene
where you finally have come to terms the innocent man
is in jail, You're drinking, there's bottles, there's papers, it's
all hitting you.

Speaker 5 (01:31:39):
I remember, I remember shooting a scene. It was the
last shot of the night.

Speaker 4 (01:31:43):
And I was kind of acted out at this point,
and so I just kind of hung in there and
try to do the best I could. I was that
was probably the scene, the only scene will That was
probably the scene of mine that I was least proud of.
I thought I had another, should have given another twenty
five to thirty percent in that scene, and I was drained,

(01:32:06):
completely drained.

Speaker 5 (01:32:07):
Now if you'll.

Speaker 4 (01:32:08):
Remember, do you remember how that scene started the pan
across all the stuff. Yeah, started on a Tennessee football helmet.

Speaker 1 (01:32:16):
Oh my god, you got some little props in there.

Speaker 5 (01:32:20):
I get him into almost everything I do, And I'll
tell you this is how I do it.

Speaker 4 (01:32:25):
I first start with the director and say do you
want me to use my accent or not?

Speaker 5 (01:32:31):
And if they say yeah, I like.

Speaker 4 (01:32:33):
The accent, you know, which most of the time they do,
and I'll say, well, maybe he's from Tennessee. Maybe in
his backstory he even played football at Tennessee. So what
about some Tennessee props I can get him sent for free?
And they said, well, no, they're copywriter. You can't put
that I said no, no, no. The ut Athletic Work had

(01:32:53):
a formal letter they sent to all my productions throughout
my career saying it's fine to use Tennessee anything David
wants to use it.

Speaker 3 (01:33:02):
I love that. That's so funny.

Speaker 4 (01:33:05):
I have a power Toat tattooed on my left shoulder
and in Hawaii Oh, I had a sleeveless shirt on
and they featured that featured the tattoo in one of
the shots.

Speaker 3 (01:33:16):
Are you the number one fan? You must be the
number one for generation?

Speaker 4 (01:33:21):
I would say there are hundreds of thousands.

Speaker 5 (01:33:25):
Of these people just like me.

Speaker 1 (01:33:28):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:33:29):
Yeah, I have an acting question for you. Sure you're saying,
you know you look back on that scene and you're
disappointed in it. What do you do when you leave
SAT and you're like fuck, like there's nothing you can do.

Speaker 3 (01:33:40):
How do you deal with that? You're just haunted for decades.

Speaker 4 (01:33:44):
I just went home and fell in the bed and
went to sleep. No, I'm not haunted for decades. And
you know, when I watch it, I don't think anybody
else is going to feel like I short. It's only
me because I know I have more.

Speaker 5 (01:33:59):
I know I knew that.

Speaker 4 (01:34:02):
Probably have we had we shot that scene earlier in
the day, I could have done more with it, but
I was just drained.

Speaker 5 (01:34:09):
Was empty.

Speaker 4 (01:34:10):
Tank was empty? Yeah, yeah, not totally empty. So so
I think the scene is fine. I'm not like, see,
there's no cringe worthy aspect to it whatsoever.

Speaker 3 (01:34:22):
It's just you know, dang, yeah we we didn't notice.

Speaker 1 (01:34:28):
But I mean, I bet you as an actor, notice
you know what you want, what you wanted it to be.

Speaker 2 (01:34:32):
You know, well, because it's a big moment, you know,
he finally admits what happened.

Speaker 3 (01:34:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:34:40):
My question too, is what is it about you? Because
I'm going through your IMDb. You've played a lot of cops,
a lot of detectives, a lot of more than one
guy named Hawk.

Speaker 3 (01:34:50):
You just look like a guy that looks like a hawk.

Speaker 1 (01:34:52):
I mean, it's like, uh, it's very interesting you you've
played a lot of I mean, do you think you
mostly play like kind of I mean, you've obviously have
over one hundred credits, You've played a million different things.
But would you say, like you play a ton of
sort of like characters like this, like this guy, like cops.

Speaker 4 (01:35:12):
Later in my career, but you know, I used to
get to think, hey, you always played military guys. Oh yeah, right,
because that was a big part of mine, with Austin
and a gentleman and.

Speaker 5 (01:35:25):
Behind me lines and all that stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:35:26):
But I don't know I have I've never gone gone
back and looked at.

Speaker 5 (01:35:32):
Which group.

Speaker 4 (01:35:35):
Of society I have performed in the most. I'm never
really never really crossed my mind. But it seems like
I feel like I've played as many bad guys.

Speaker 5 (01:35:45):
As I have a good guy.

Speaker 3 (01:35:46):
Oh yeah, you know, I just.

Speaker 5 (01:35:48):
Played a role I say justed.

Speaker 4 (01:35:50):
We shot it in twenty twenty three, but you know
in a movie that is outstreaming now and it's going
to be on It starts on Hulu in March, and
it's called Dead Money, and it's a poker heist movie
with uh Emil Hirsch is.

Speaker 5 (01:36:10):
The lead and I'm the villain.

Speaker 4 (01:36:13):
I also creative executive produced it, and and you know,
I wrote a lot of.

Speaker 5 (01:36:17):
The scenes and and really had a lot of input.

Speaker 4 (01:36:20):
I helped I picked the director, and we did the
casting together, and so I was involved in that creatively,
you know, from soup to nuts. So I'm very proud
of that movie. And I wrote my character in there
that he had a bad dye job. So I have
my hair, you know, and my goatee.

Speaker 5 (01:36:38):
Died this really dark brown that looks totally wrong, you.

Speaker 3 (01:36:43):
Know, like so, but and it's too Who is just
in an episode of SPU that we covered.

Speaker 5 (01:36:52):
Oh yeah he's in.

Speaker 4 (01:36:53):
Yeah, yeah, I'm not not very nice to him in
that movie.

Speaker 5 (01:36:59):
You'll see. That's all I'm gonna say. Okay, but you
should see the movie. It really is the best movie.

Speaker 4 (01:37:05):
That's this little company I've been working with out of
Jacksonville in Atlanta.

Speaker 5 (01:37:09):
We've done I did the first three.

Speaker 4 (01:37:12):
Movies with him, and then they've done two more since then,
and that they're really coming of their own. But Dead
Money is the best thing that that group has produced
so far.

Speaker 5 (01:37:27):
This out cool, but yeah, you'll like it.

Speaker 2 (01:37:30):
You worked with our favorite Bette Middler with Drew Barrymore.
We would love to know some a story or something.

Speaker 1 (01:37:39):
Thatt Middler's my childhood idol into adulthood.

Speaker 4 (01:37:43):
Well that was Mars. Yeah, that was my first movie.
I've done a couple of little day player roles before that,
but that was my first movie. And I was so
starstruck by her when she played in nineteen seventy three,
she did a con search here in Knoxville, and I
slept out in front of the UG ticket office in

(01:38:05):
a sleeping bag with my new puppy and was front
got front row center tickets to that. So when I
went into the meeting for you know, I told that.
When I went in the meeting, and they were very
you know, that meant a lot to Aaron Russo, who
was her manager. But I went in and read for
Nancy Clopper, the casting director, and it was this sensitive

(01:38:27):
scene in that movie where he's telling her how he
wanted always wanted to be a vet and he delivered
this cat that was breached and all that, and and
I looked up and there were tears coming down the
casting director's face, and she picked up the phone and
call the director Mark right Well.

Speaker 5 (01:38:43):
She said, I'm bringing.

Speaker 4 (01:38:44):
Mal over to your house right now. So I went
over there, read with him, and uh, and then nothing happened.
I didn't hear from anybody. Two months went by, so
I said, heck, I'm moving back. I'm going back to
New York. I missed my girlfriend and so I left LA.
As soon as I landed in New York and got
to the apartment, my girlfriend had made fried chicken my favorite.

(01:39:05):
The phone rings and they say, get back on a plane. Well,
that's that's not an actor story. I'll tell you one
quick Jack story. There's a scene in the Two Jakes
where I'm supposed to be waiting by the car my character,
who's this, you know, dipshit young cop. And I'm supposed

(01:39:28):
to be waiting by the car. And so they've got
a camera set up and Jack's over there and I said,
I want to try a couple of things. He said,
Keith sent you a fucking great actor. You just hold
up one finger to take one, two fingers for take two.

Speaker 5 (01:39:44):
I'll just let the motherfucker roll.

Speaker 4 (01:39:48):
And so he just let the camera roll, and I
did all these things, twirling my pistol and practicing my
quick drawl and all these crazy things. And that was
just a it was such a moment of freedom when
he said that. And you never really have total freedom
with any director. You know, you're in the confines of

(01:40:09):
what he sees and the limit. Now you can bring
things and you can stretch those boundaries. But that's the
only time I've ever had the boundaries removed. Yeah, and
just told do whatever you want. I mean, it's a tiny,
little scene. You know, it wasn't really dial it wasn't
dialogue or anything, but it was just amazing feeling the
best scene I ever played with the best actor.

Speaker 5 (01:40:32):
Of course, scenes with Jack were great, but.

Speaker 4 (01:40:34):
They weren't They weren't real, you know, they weren't deep.
And the scene I played with Gene Hackman where we
go to toe to toe in behind enemy lines, took
about three hours to shoot. And that is my that
is the greatest three hours I've ever spent as an actor.

(01:40:54):
No matter how deep I went, he would go just
as deep, and we just it just kept getting richer
and richer. And when it was over, I said, I
just want to tell you, Jane, that's the best three
hours I've ever ever spent as an actor.

Speaker 5 (01:41:12):
And he was.

Speaker 4 (01:41:13):
He was kind of a curmudgeon a little bit in
the film because he'd just come off a film where
the director was such a stickler for dialogue and Jane
was worried about and I remembering his lines, and he
was the age then that I am now seventy, and.

Speaker 5 (01:41:30):
So he was.

Speaker 4 (01:41:31):
He wasn't mean anybody. He was nice, said, you know,
he's friendly, but he was he was still just you
could tell it was kind of where it was. He
was in an abrasive state a little bit, and as
soon as he finished his last line in the movie,
he became this total class clown.

Speaker 5 (01:41:52):
He was laughing, telling jokes.

Speaker 4 (01:41:55):
He was so happy to have gotten all his dialogue done.
And it's a different person, different person, But I loved
working with him.

Speaker 3 (01:42:06):
He's one of the greats. I mean, I love him
so much. Like that's exciting.

Speaker 2 (01:42:10):
You have such a passion for what you do after
you know all these years.

Speaker 4 (01:42:14):
It's nice, it's it's great when the cameras roll and
then you're working. Sitting around is the worst part. And
Ben Johnson, the famous character actor, some actors complaining about
having to wait, and he said, son, do you not
understand where, Uh, we act for free.

Speaker 5 (01:42:34):
We're paid to wait.

Speaker 4 (01:42:36):
The reason you make your money is to sit around
waiting to shoot. Then when you shoot, that's you do
that for nothing.

Speaker 5 (01:42:42):
Yeah, it's kind of true. It's kind of true.

Speaker 3 (01:42:46):
It is so true because I think about that with
stand up.

Speaker 2 (01:42:50):
We're both stand ups and I'm on the road all
the time, and when I'm on stage doing shows, it's
my favorite thing ever. But of course, like I'm going
to get in the two hour uber, I'm going to
get on my flight.

Speaker 3 (01:43:00):
I'm going to you know, all.

Speaker 2 (01:43:00):
Of that is what you're getting paid for, the hotel,
you know, eating like airport food, and then the prize
is on stage.

Speaker 5 (01:43:11):
Exactly what's next?

Speaker 3 (01:43:13):
What do you want to do? What haven't you done?

Speaker 2 (01:43:15):
Is there a role that you're like, I need to
play something like this, or you're just open to stuff?

Speaker 5 (01:43:19):
What's the I'm open to stuff right now. You know
that I've written.

Speaker 4 (01:43:25):
I'm just finishing my fourth script in the last like
six months, and I want to do I want to
do one of these scripts at least, if not more.
So I'm hoping that this little movie company that I've
been working with will come around and decide to do
one of them.

Speaker 5 (01:43:45):
And I think I didn't.

Speaker 4 (01:43:47):
Know I could write, and and I'm very very happy
with stuff I'm writing.

Speaker 3 (01:43:51):
That's great.

Speaker 4 (01:43:52):
I never thought I could even get started, and it
just flows better than I ever dreamed.

Speaker 5 (01:44:00):
So I'm really happy with these And do.

Speaker 3 (01:44:02):
You want to direct them?

Speaker 5 (01:44:05):
Yes? Everything?

Speaker 3 (01:44:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:44:08):
The main thing is if you're asking about a plug,
the main thing I want to plug is dead money,
oh bad money with me and Emile Hurstad.

Speaker 5 (01:44:16):
Money on starts on Hulu in March.

Speaker 3 (01:44:19):
Amazing, okay, perfect, this will come out just in time
for that.

Speaker 5 (01:44:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:44:25):
Cool, that's cool. I'm glad you're getting so fun. Yeah,
this was great.

Speaker 1 (01:44:30):
Thank you so much, David, will let you will let
you go, and we will make sure everybody's going to
see Dead Money.

Speaker 5 (01:44:37):
Cool.

Speaker 3 (01:44:39):
All right, thanks David.

Speaker 2 (01:44:44):
I mean that was really fun. Love talking to him.
When an unhinged, wild episode, I know.

Speaker 1 (01:44:50):
I mean it's also because this is season three, he
might be like the prototype of like the first guy
that comes in and knows the case tries to act
like he knows the case better than you know, Like
we just had Delroy Lindo, We've had you know, I.

Speaker 3 (01:45:07):
Feel like Anthony Anderson did that. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:45:10):
Yeah, even Erica Christiansen to a degree, is that kind
of character. Like these characters that just come in and
like think that they know better than Benson and Stabler
and then like they have to all work together to.

Speaker 3 (01:45:21):
Teach that, you know, teamwork makes the dream work.

Speaker 1 (01:45:24):
But but yeah, this episode is wild.

Speaker 3 (01:45:27):
It's also it's so freaky because this one.

Speaker 1 (01:45:31):
I felt had a really really graphic violence against the
victims and that they sort of like showed parts of it,
and then the guy who ends up doing it is
like so just like innocuous, you know, Like when it
was the guy in baggage, You're like, yeah, that guy
looks like he would fucking kill you, like for some reason,
Like the way he was like sneering. This guy did
truly look just like an unassuming accountant with like.

Speaker 2 (01:45:54):
I don't trust an accountant. That's I mean a dangerous
type of person. So yeah, but like suspicious.

Speaker 3 (01:46:02):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:46:03):
It just scared me so much the way he was
just in that woman's apartment, just having wine with her,
and now she acted like that was no big deal.
She also is deeply stupid for letting like an IRS
agent like into her home.

Speaker 2 (01:46:12):
She was scared she was gonna get fucked you know
what I mean, Yeah, fucked over financially.

Speaker 1 (01:46:16):
Yeah, but she was gonna get her teeth fucking knocked
out and murdered I know of.

Speaker 3 (01:46:21):
And it's like, you never like to hear Melinda Warner go.

Speaker 1 (01:46:25):
With what this woman went through death was a blessing,
Like you never want to hear that from someone who's seen.

Speaker 3 (01:46:29):
Everything, you know, that is the worst.

Speaker 2 (01:46:33):
Like she was like this was bud, but Also, I
can't believe he got away with biting the victims for
as long as he did with dental stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:46:41):
I know.

Speaker 2 (01:46:43):
That's true, or why they would have to exhume the
body if they had the dental records from the past crimes.

Speaker 1 (01:46:50):
Yeah again season three. I don't feel like they were
always connecting all the dots in the very early seasons.
I didn't think they thought we were be They maybe
didn't know the show was going to be on for
twenty five years and that some of us would just
be watching every episode seventy five times and earning a
law degree from watching it.

Speaker 3 (01:47:05):
So I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:47:07):
I do feel like we find holes all the time
in a lot of these episodes, but I don't know
what we what's the big takeaway lesson? I mean, definitely
that the cops are constantly don't.

Speaker 2 (01:47:17):
Put away someone into jail that didn't do it so
you can look like a cool cop, like but also
for none of his coworkers to be like, that's not
the guy.

Speaker 3 (01:47:26):
He couldn't do that. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:47:29):
Yeah, I just can't believe it went through try like
this many things that.

Speaker 3 (01:47:34):
Any many years.

Speaker 2 (01:47:36):
Yeah, for a crime where like no evidence was left behind.

Speaker 1 (01:47:39):
I don't know it's well, and then the and in
the episode, it's like the guy was doing it. So
he was originally even on their list because he testified
to seeing the guy in the building, Like so he
was framing him on purpose, Like pretty hardcore. So you've
got a psychopath who's framing you. But also it's like,
did any of you guys have a conversation with this

(01:47:59):
man you think this is? This man is like capable
of like evading the cops on all these murders, like
the Soho strangler, like just lumbering around. I mean the
guy is like not like I don't know, he's not
a stealth killer from not meticulous.

Speaker 3 (01:48:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:48:17):
Yeah, And it just also goes to show you that
Huang's profiles are seldom wrong. You know, he knew the
guy was educated white middle management.

Speaker 3 (01:48:26):
You know he knew he knew.

Speaker 2 (01:48:28):
And stabler fuck you with your little attitude. I mean,
but he had a right to be mad, Like obviously
that would make me mad too, But like I just
hate the vibe of like, well, now I'm going to
ruin it for all of you.

Speaker 1 (01:48:43):
Yeah, now I'm gonna be rude to a girl who
just found her roommate dead because I'm like just pissed
that the like the justice system doesn't work all the time.
You know, He's he's got a lot going on, that
fucking guy. But they they definitely had so much in
the early seasons, like the early handful of seasons that
was like it's getting to Elliott, Like I don't think

(01:49:03):
they do that much.

Speaker 3 (01:49:04):
With Benson.

Speaker 1 (01:49:07):
They did so much of like, oh, this case involves
a little girl, and you guys know Elliott has a
bunch of little girls. You know, Like there was so
much like this is how it's getting in his head,
and they didn't I don't know they.

Speaker 2 (01:49:19):
Ben's well that well, yeah, that's the thing Stablirt's family,
And with Benson, it's just like anytime there's a single
woman or an alcoholic or like a mom that's bad yeah,
or an alcoholic mom yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:49:30):
Yeah, yeah totally, or like being popular.

Speaker 2 (01:49:33):
In school or something, she's connected in different ways.

Speaker 3 (01:49:39):
Yeah. I mean a good episode.

Speaker 2 (01:49:42):
I think I've been a little too hard on it
with some of the silly like I just didn't get
the contact of it all. Like there was just these
extra additional clues that were annoying to me. Yeah, yeah,
but it's not nice because it's an amazing episode, riveting.

Speaker 1 (01:49:59):
It is a like Honestly, as I was watching it,
I was like, I know, I've seen this one a
million times, but it kind of felt like it was
coming back to me a little bit new.

Speaker 3 (01:50:06):
So I liked that.

Speaker 1 (01:50:09):
And I do sort of like the serial Killer episodes
that feels like so crazy, But I do kind of
like the ones where like they've been looking for a
guy for a long time or whatever.

Speaker 3 (01:50:18):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:50:18):
You know what, I'm getting an urge to watch while
I pack and shower. Well, now when I shower, when
I dry off, I want to watch the Mattress Killer one.

Speaker 3 (01:50:27):
With oh the women? What is that one with bedtime? Yeah? Bedtime?

Speaker 1 (01:50:32):
Yeah, the Bedtime Killer or whatever. Maybe I'll watch it
before bed tonight. That's what I'm really in the mood for.
Speaking of old crowd, A cozy little, A cozy little
like Bedtime where she liked the old butcher.

Speaker 2 (01:50:45):
Yeah, and she keeps the old sheets. Was she she
should have won an Emmy for that one. Oh yeah,
and Margaret was crazy. We talked to Jacqueline Smith for
that one. That was awesome.

Speaker 3 (01:50:56):
I was in step.

Speaker 1 (01:50:57):
We talked to a Charlie's Angel. Anyway, let's move on
to what would Sister Peg Do? This is our weekly
segment where we direct you guys to an organization, an article,
a blog, a documentary, something to give you more info
about what we talked about in today's episode. And this
week for WWSPD, we'd like to point you to the
Equal Justice Initiative. This organization is committed to ending mass

(01:51:17):
incarceration and excessive punishment in the United States, challenging racial
and economic injustice, and protecting basic human rights for the
most vulnerable people in American society. Obviously, I hated hearing
about two mentally disabled men going to jail for multiple
over a decade each for crimes they didn't commit. So

(01:51:39):
organizations like this are doing a lot of work to
stop stuff like that from happening. EJI works with communities
that have been marginalized by poverty and discouraged by unequal treatment.
They also provide research and recommendations to assist advocates and
policymakers in criminal justice reform. So for more info, you
can go to EJI dot org and we link that
in our show notes as always, and we will post

(01:52:01):
it as a link in our stories, that comes out
the data this episode comes out, and then that gets
saved forever in our WWSPD highlight on our Instagram page,
which is That's Messed Up Pod. If you ever want
to go back and check out what organizations and docs
and articles we've highlighted before, they're all saved there.

Speaker 2 (01:52:18):
Thank you so much for that, And next week we'll
be doing Gamblers Fallacy Season fifteen, episode seventeen, Boom Boom
Boom goes to the Dynamite. Thanks for listening. Bye. That's

(01:52:41):
Messed Up as an exactly right production.

Speaker 1 (01:52:44):
If you have compliments you'd like to give us or
episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email
at That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com.

Speaker 2 (01:52:51):
Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod
and on Twitter at messed Up Pod, and follow us
personally at Kara Klank and Glitter Cheese.

Speaker 1 (01:53:01):
As always, please see our show notes for sources and
more information.

Speaker 2 (01:53:04):
Thank you so much to our senior producer Casey O'Brien
and our associate producer Christina Chamberlain, and to our.

Speaker 1 (01:53:11):
Mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cottner, and
to Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly Jean
Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers,
Georgia hard Start, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer, and everybody at
Exactly Right Media.

Speaker 3 (01:53:26):
Dun Dun

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