June 27, 2019 • 29 mins
The elusive character at the center of the mystery is found, and iO gets his story.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
For confidence in your financial plan, look for a CFP professional.
When your financial advisor earns the CFP certification, it means
he or she is trained to provide ethical financial planning
across a holistic range of topics from retirement and investing
to taxes and estate planning, all in your best interest.
So with a CFP professional, you'll feel confident in your
(00:22):
financial plan today and tomorrow. Three letters do make a difference.
Visit Let's make a plan dot org to find your
CFP professional. Austin and I are back at Ron Kubie's
office going through the police file. So the most intriguing
thing about this file will certainly appeal to your sense
(00:45):
of trying to see the unseen, is this memo book. Entry.
Ron is holding up one page, a page of handwritten
notes from a memo book. Now, do you know how
a memo book? We're okay, Back when the universe was
young and dinosaurs from the planet, you would have like
(01:08):
these stenography books, and you'd write on this side, right right, right,
right right right. Then you flip it over and you'd
write on the other side. Pressing really hard. Upon photo copying,
you will see precisely mirrored writing. See that see all
(01:31):
this stuff here. This is the flip side of this page.
Just below the writing on this page is an imprint,
a very faint outline of the writing from another page.
If you hold that sucker to a mirror and shine
a light directly on it, the hidden writing will be revealed.
(01:58):
And who knows what key to the universe this post is.
I haven't really had enough time to play around with it,
but you want to do it together, we can. Okay, yes,
Ron leads me into his kitchen closet. I came out
(02:23):
of the closet along. There's a mirror against a wall.
Ron holds up the paper and we lean over to
get close, studying the reflection. So, if you look at
this carefully, this is narcotics Um. These are the names
(02:46):
detectives and detectives. Yeah, I can't quite make it out,
but under better light roact, maybe we can't make out
a name, and maybe this has absolutely nothing to do
with our case. But as we walk out of the closet,
I looked down at the police report in my hands
(03:08):
and realized that this imprint has everything to do with
our case. It's all the ship that's redacted on the
page before it's the same. It's this, yeah, yeah, okay,
you get the redactions, so you may actually get the
you may actually get the name of the guy that
that's the name of. It's the name of the undercover
(03:29):
cop who shot Billy. We sit down in Ron's conference
room and Austin, who's been quiet this whole time, speaks up.
So I just want to say that you've ruined my reveal.
Run go into this. But while we're here, so I
(03:51):
noticed the similar thing and I brought it into photoshop.
No fucking way you didn't. Let's see. Do you have
the fucking name? Yep, Oh my god, you have his
(04:14):
fucking name and ar conics detective Ronald. Holy shit, we
have the guy in the cowboy head from Crimetown. I'm
(04:36):
io till it right, and this is the ballad of
Billy Balls. She knew who had come to visit Billy
that night. She knew that it was a police officer
(04:57):
and off duty police officer and a cowboy Bill. He
said to me that the dude that shot him came
to the hospital and said to him, if it was
up to me, you wouldn't be in here. There's another
reason why you may not be able to get access
(05:19):
a particular record because the officer was working undercover. Chapter twelve,
The guy in the Cowboy had everyone I've talked to
(05:40):
for this project who knew Billy wonders who the guy
was who shot him. It sounded to me like this
guy was like just some bad, dirty, sleazy, rogue cop
kind of guy. The guy like busted in and shot Billy.
(06:04):
And I heard something later on that that guy either
got killed or whatever. He was kicked off the police
force and investigated. He was like some dirty rogue cop.
The cops broken guns ablazing, and I remember hearing people speculate, like,
(06:24):
is this cops shooting people because their assholes? Why would
the police shoot him? It's got to be more to
it than there. Unless you get to interview the guy
in the cowboy hat, I don't know how you're ever
going to solve it. There was an undercover cop, some
crazy lunatic obsessed with my dad, and there's so many
(06:47):
things you think about that dude, like was he like
put in this position to monitor my father? Was he
demoted from something and he was all bitter. I've put
so many thoughts into who the skuy could be a man,
(07:13):
How are you doing. I'm out of town, so Austin
and I are doing some studio coordination. Are you in
the studio? Yes, I'm preparing to call the guy in
the cowboy hat. He's in his early seventies, lives on
Long Island and goes by Ronnie. We won't be using
(07:33):
his last name. Well, I will tell you that when
I talked to Ronnie the other day, he did he
didn't seem extremely enthusiastic about this, you know, be cordial
and kind and nice and all that. He may be
a murderer, but he may not be so. All right,
(07:57):
well Ton fifty nine? Okay, were recording Austin talked to
me for a seke. Yes, Hello, Yeah, okay, that's good.
That's good. Okay, I'm gonna call Mr Holy sh it. Hello? Hi?
(08:25):
Is this Ronnie? Yeah? Hello? Hi? How are you fine?
How are you? I'm doing well? Um, thank you so
much for taking my call. I I don't know what
assistance I can give you, because really probably not much
other than that it's on like there's everything's on paper. Yeah,
(08:47):
you know. From my side, it's like, um, you're you're
probably going to be more useful than you think because
this was such a big moment in my my mom's life.
But because her and Billy weren't married, she was really
kept out of the loop on on everything, and so
over the last thirty seven years, it's kind of become
(09:09):
this mythological story of what happened, and you are the
only person who knows what happened that night. Well, I'm
sure she's a pensive naturally, of course you would be.
But it doesn't change back. Sure, and everything said, everything's
on paper totally was completely investigated in nine different ways,
(09:32):
and it was completely legitimate. Yeah, I know this is
a fragile situation and he can hang up at any second. God,
I have so many questions for you. I can I
just ask you one question just about Well, I'm just
I'm curious about you a little bit, like how did
(09:52):
you become a cop? No, that was a long story,
A long time ago. I was I was in school
for chemistry because I wasn't looking to become a police.
But it's a test. That was marriage. And then my
my wife had a baby. I was twenty years old.
I was in my second year of school and I
(10:15):
left it to go to a police of honor. Ronnie
started as a trainee in the late sixties. Once I
got in, I loved every minute of it. A great job.
It seems like a terrifying time to be a cop though,
and like, oh was it that? It was? Absolutely? It's
incredibly guys, How did how did you get into undercover work?
(10:36):
In particular priborly to be coming undercover? I was an
investigator and we had no one to cover, to go
out and d bias to go to an area. So
I did it. And then once I did it, did
it again and again and again. Next thing I know,
That's all I did, And I had some exciting cases,
(11:00):
in many exciting cases. Did you like work out better? Yeah?
Did you like working undercover? It seems stressful to me, Yes,
I did it. It was good because you had a
lot of control of the case. We were what were
some of them? The more exciting ones that worked out
better worked on the West East. The West East is
(11:24):
an Irish American gang that's dominated organized crime in the
Hill's Kitchen area of Manhattan for decades. There was Irish
gangs on the West side of Manhattan. They told me
to take them in htt and South told me that
they killed over Hunter, ripping them off contract killings. Even
among organized crime rings, the West East were considered especially brutal,
(11:48):
and we're known for dismembering those they killed as he
fell on the floor. That's how quick the plastic came
out and seven Department about an hour. Like man boats.
Almost impossible to get an inroad uh into the West Eaves.
I think I was like the primary undercovering the Western case,
(12:08):
and they had so much to introduce me to the people.
Ronnie says that in the mid eighties he went undercover
as a drug dealer to build a case against the
West East. It was just like a drug connection to them.
I was like a major drug dealer because they believed,
now you know what you're doing. Very often where a
(12:29):
wire hanging out with them, drinking, talking violin drinks like
my friends. It's not it's not that they like you
or anything like that, because I don't think they're like anybody.
If you killed twenty five people, what kind of person
would you be. They're looking to make money. They're just
hopeful that you'll be able to make money for them,
and Ronnie convinced them that he could make money for them.
(12:54):
They gave me like I think it was fifty or
sixty pounds of ampheta means that they stole an arm
robbery on consignment. But they also told how they got
this thing on a stick up on Laura. They put
eight people in a y, locked them in a room
circle that what they felt was a good athletic means,
and left with suitcases full of stuff. Like they thought
(13:16):
that I was like so connected, I could just sell
it off and give them a couple of hundred or
whatever they wanted, which of course I didn't. Instead, Ronnie
says he passed on the information to the NYPD and
the FBI. It was like very very exhilarating, and it
was do you beat them? They won over the bad guy.
(13:38):
You got them up the street and they really were
bad people. And those people all got put away. Yes
they did. For a very long time. I did quite
a few cases. I worked on the Banana, the sound
by the fish Market. The Bananas one of the major
Italian mafia families in New York City. They were into everything,
(14:02):
being one of them counter credit causes. The Times do
your name that they did it? Seventy five year old
Joseph Pinano, the reputed crime lord of New York City,
leader of one of the five mafia families. Tomorrow, he
goes on trial for allegedly interfering with the grand jury
invest designated another cover for a total of seventeen years,
(14:25):
I've done a total of over a thousand drug bies
in my career. Police say a string of storefronts were
used for the packaging and sale of illegal drugs. The
peddling took place on the Lower east Side here. Did
you work in the East Village in particular a lot
or were you all over New York. I did a
lot that was just one one location. I don't think
(14:45):
that they can never stop the drug flow in the
Lower east Side. I don't think we have enough Laura
forcement agents to stop that. After the break, Ronnie goes
to Third Avenue. Do you mind telling me just like
(15:05):
what happened that night? Even if I can't go up
with details obviously, I'm on the phone with Ronnie, the
undercover cop who shot Billy. Can you tell me a
little bit about your undercover persona that you had, Like
did you have like an outfit or something that you
wore back then? You know, I just tried to be
(15:26):
like fit in with the average drug deal. Depending on
a different case. M hm, did you ever wear a
cowboy hat? No? No, it's weird. There was this rumor
that it was that that you had been wearing a
cowboy hat, well someone else and they have been that
(15:47):
I wasn't. I never won a hat. Huh huh. Well,
do you remember like when you first heard the name
Billy Piano, because it sounds like he had a bit
of a reputation. Do you remember, well, right when we
got that from the informant, I did not know him.
Price to about the informant is the one got you?
(16:08):
Ronnie says. An informant tipped the police off to Billy
And was the informant part of a bigger case? Or
was that like a one off? It was part of
the case and it was a lodge of target. Obviously
it was not not my case. That was not the
investigator was the undercover. Another detective would have done the
(16:30):
investigation that all the backgrounds, found out who were buying
what we're doing, and then he would introduce me to
the informat the this is this basics of what they
do and then I get introduced to buy drugs. Do
you remember what the substance was that you had been
told he was selling. Yeah she was. He was showing obviously,
(16:52):
and we were. The idea was to get the connection.
It was beyond him, above him who totally was doing
had a bit of weight in heron in Heroin, Yes,
got you. Did that case ever go anywhere? And whatever
happened with that situation. I never worked for him again.
(17:13):
I'm sure that someone else did. So. I only had
one part in the case and that was it. It's
just one of those things. It went wrong. Ronnie says
that Billy called his supplier and Ronnie went into the bathroom.
(17:36):
I was writing down the connection phone number, and he
followed into the bathroom and you know, to me and
had a gun on me. I don't know what was said, well,
even if I was writing a phone number down to
pull a guns about it right? And then he cocked
the gun, which really set me off because when you cocked,
(17:57):
you have like a terre trigger, and you felt like
significantly afraid. It was the cocking that made you think, oh, like,
this guy's gonna actually shoot me. He's not the only
one that is posed ugon, I mean, but the only
one to convinced me he was about the fire. He
activated the round. It would have been in the chamber.
(18:18):
It was like not a good move on his part.
Ronnie says. Billy then backed out of the bathroom with
his gun still up. He went out trying to me
with the gun on me, and it was pretty uncomfortable.
He says. He took out his buy money, so that
was really basically to distract him because there was no
(18:38):
deal at that point. And then did the car quickly.
I thought that he fired. I saw coming. I think
it was a simultaneous fire. Ronnie says he thought Billy
had fired. He thought he saw sparks from Billy's gun.
(18:59):
In the police report, it says that Billy never fired
his gun. That was the only disagreement we had to
whether there was that first shot actually went off simultaneously
or I seeing my own sparks. I don't know where
sparks came from his direction, But was I actually saying
my own sparks as I don't know. I can only
(19:22):
say what I saw m but he is known to
fire his gun, according to the informant. Now, but the inflormant,
I believe it was totally totally truthful and he was
petrified of the guy. They said they never got the fire.
I said that he did because I saw the two
things and I'm the one who decoct the gun and
emptied it. Would that make a difference to you if
(19:45):
if it was that wouldn't have been at all? Mhm.
Did he seem erratic to you? Well, didn't he? He's
tears to me to be pretty high mh. I've I've
seen things go down where I just say, why would
this guy have done this? And drugs was very west
in the cause. What happens like right after you well,
(20:10):
right after everything we could save him to get into
the hospital again, checked up, but it's just you tried
to save him, yest. We did. We got him right
to the hospital. He was actually interviewed by by the
team afterwards because he was hospital and he survived initially.
Did you ever go see him in the hospital? I
(20:31):
know no, I'm sure you wouldn't wouldn't want visited for me.
I wonder if you're comfortable telling me a little bit
about like what you felt in that situation, Like was
that a rare occurrence or that conference that I actually
(20:53):
end up on a shoot out of any time? And
I was not happy with it at all. I mean,
you can't be happy being involved in something like that.
So it's bothered you not better cost did you didn't
want that to happen? Yeah, I can't amage anyone being
happy about it. Obviously, we were shooting people over the
(21:16):
cops are like forty years and he was the only one.
He's the only one. Yeah, oh my god, it's the
sad thing. I I don't know what's siring. Yeah, yeah,
it is a sad thing. It's it's really wild to
(21:37):
hear that in year forty years as a police officer,
he was the only one, the only one shot. That
must stick with you. Well, it is what it is.
I mean, yeah, that's nothing's gonna change it. So I
can't really talk too much more about it. I don't
(21:58):
want to get into anything like I'm not even probably Okay,
I don't want to go too far with it. Okay, Well,
thank you, thank you again. I really appreciate it. And um,
I hope you have a beautiful day. Insane to you.
Thank you very much, all right, take care bye bye, Hio.
(22:29):
Tell me what you're feeling. Uh. I sense an openness
from him. I get the sense that he cares. He
(22:49):
struck me as somebody caught between how much he believes
in his job and like a very human response, which was,
this is very unfortunate, and like he stopped short of
saying I'm sorry, but I could feel that from him,
(23:11):
like he wasn't he wasn't like fuck it, like whatever, yeah,
so what this happened? He was a fucking high maniac
like whatever. When he said we did everything we could
to save him, make sure he went straight to the hospital,
there's remorse there. I'm just looking over the questions that
(23:34):
we have for him, and it's like it was fucking heroin.
It was heroin. I also find it very interesting that
says he never wore a cowboy hat. I also find
it very interesting that says he never visited him in
the hospital, and his response to that also was interesting
(23:55):
because he said, well, no, I mean that would upset him.
We h. I find to be a very human answer
to the question of did you go see the man
who you just shot six times in the hospital, I
too would be like, well, no, he doesn't want to
see me. So he also gave some details about the
(24:19):
cocking of the gun that makes me think that he's
telling the truth about him remembering Billy cocking it. And
him being the one to decock it afterwards. Yeah, I
think him also emptying the gun, and it was a
very human detail. It doesn't seem like he was making
it up. Here's my my understanding right now. I don't
(24:45):
think Ronald went to that house to kill Billy balls
based on the information that we have, I don't believe
that I can see a world in which the bigger
case like what if. No, that doesn't make any fucking sense.
It's just like the conspiracy just falls apart from me.
(25:11):
It seems all really fucking unfortunate and stupid. Yeah, it's
all very sad. It's devastating because it didn't need to happen.
If Billy hadn't been erratic and high, probably and if
(25:33):
he hadn't had a gun, I wouldn't have shot him,
and all this tragedy, all this devastation of him being
ripped from my mom, And it seems to me that
it did not need to happen. As Ronnie has spent
(25:56):
thirty seven years probably telling himself that he did the
right thing, my mom has also spent thirty seven years
telling herself that he did the wrong thing, and then
this great tragedy and she was robbed, and Billy was
robbed in all of these things, and the whole thing
is just this like exercise and what the mind creates
(26:23):
versus what the reality is when you just have all
the fucking information alone in this world. She here, I
think she's here next week, so let me just take
off my coats. One last sit down with my mom.
(26:44):
They led to kill. It's the final chapter of the
Ballad of Billy Balls. Yea Crime Town is Zach Stewart
(27:11):
Pontier and Mark Smirling. The Ballad of Billy Balls is
hosted by me Io Till It Right and made in
partnership with Caden's Thirteen. You can find me on the internet.
Um Io loves you on everything. Do say hi, and
if you want to know more about my story, you
can pick up my memoir Darling Days. We also want
to hear from you. We have a voicemail set up
(27:33):
for you to call us and tell us whatever you want.
Here's a guy with good taste. Can I just say
I think that the the song is absolutely genius, absolutely genius.
It is perfect for the podcast. I wish you all
the very best regards to how this turns out, and
I have enjoyed the hell out of it. Thank you.
(27:54):
I totally agree everybody should check out the rest of
their music Light Asylum. They're the best. And if there's
something on your mind, thoughts, feelings, complaints, whatever, call us
and leave us a voicemail at five seven oh three,
nine to zero, especially if you have a family mystery.
I'm obsessed with hearing about them. You can also get
(28:16):
into our discussion forum on our website, The Ballad of
Billy Balls dot com. The show was produced by me,
Kevin Sheppard and Ryan Swygert. Our senior producers Austin Mitchell,
editing by Zach Stewart Contier and Mark Smirling. Fact checking
by Jennifer Blackman. This episode was mixed by Sam Bayer.
(28:37):
Music by Kenny Qca. Our title track is Dark Allies
by Light Asylum. Archival research by Brennan Reese. Special thanks
to Nicole Long, Thanks to Daniella Aria, Rachel Lee Wright,
Emily Wiederman, Green Card Pictures, Alessandro Centauro, Bill Clegg, Ben Davis,
or In Rosenbaum and the team at Cadence thirteen, and
(29:00):
of course my Mom, without whom none of this would
be possible. And this week I want to give an
extra shout out to Austin for his handy photo shop techniques.
For confidence in your financial plan, look for a CFP professional.
When your financial advisor earns the CFP certification, it means
he or she is trained to provide ethical financial planning
across a holistic range of topics from retirement and investing
to taxes and estate planning, all in your best interest.
So with a CFP professional, you'll feel confident in your
(00:22):
financial plan today and tomorrow. Three letters do make a difference.
Visit Let's make a plan dot org to find your
CFP professional. Austin and I are back at Ron Kubie's
office going through the police file. So the most intriguing
thing about this file will certainly appeal to your sense
(00:45):
of trying to see the unseen, is this memo book. Entry.
Ron is holding up one page, a page of handwritten
notes from a memo book. Now, do you know how
a memo book? We're okay, Back when the universe was
young and dinosaurs from the planet, you would have like
(01:08):
these stenography books, and you'd write on this side, right right, right,
right right right. Then you flip it over and you'd
write on the other side. Pressing really hard. Upon photo copying,
you will see precisely mirrored writing. See that see all
(01:31):
this stuff here. This is the flip side of this page.
Just below the writing on this page is an imprint,
a very faint outline of the writing from another page.
If you hold that sucker to a mirror and shine
a light directly on it, the hidden writing will be revealed.
(01:58):
And who knows what key to the universe this post is.
I haven't really had enough time to play around with it,
but you want to do it together, we can. Okay, yes,
Ron leads me into his kitchen closet. I came out
(02:23):
of the closet along. There's a mirror against a wall.
Ron holds up the paper and we lean over to
get close, studying the reflection. So, if you look at
this carefully, this is narcotics Um. These are the names
(02:46):
detectives and detectives. Yeah, I can't quite make it out,
but under better light roact, maybe we can't make out
a name, and maybe this has absolutely nothing to do
with our case. But as we walk out of the closet,
I looked down at the police report in my hands
(03:08):
and realized that this imprint has everything to do with
our case. It's all the ship that's redacted on the
page before it's the same. It's this, yeah, yeah, okay,
you get the redactions, so you may actually get the
you may actually get the name of the guy that
that's the name of. It's the name of the undercover
(03:29):
cop who shot Billy. We sit down in Ron's conference
room and Austin, who's been quiet this whole time, speaks up.
So I just want to say that you've ruined my reveal.
Run go into this. But while we're here, so I
(03:51):
noticed the similar thing and I brought it into photoshop.
No fucking way you didn't. Let's see. Do you have
the fucking name? Yep, Oh my god, you have his
(04:14):
fucking name and ar conics detective Ronald. Holy shit, we
have the guy in the cowboy head from Crimetown. I'm
(04:36):
io till it right, and this is the ballad of
Billy Balls. She knew who had come to visit Billy
that night. She knew that it was a police officer
(04:57):
and off duty police officer and a cowboy Bill. He
said to me that the dude that shot him came
to the hospital and said to him, if it was
up to me, you wouldn't be in here. There's another
reason why you may not be able to get access
(05:19):
a particular record because the officer was working undercover. Chapter twelve,
The guy in the Cowboy had everyone I've talked to
(05:40):
for this project who knew Billy wonders who the guy
was who shot him. It sounded to me like this
guy was like just some bad, dirty, sleazy, rogue cop
kind of guy. The guy like busted in and shot Billy.
(06:04):
And I heard something later on that that guy either
got killed or whatever. He was kicked off the police
force and investigated. He was like some dirty rogue cop.
The cops broken guns ablazing, and I remember hearing people speculate, like,
(06:24):
is this cops shooting people because their assholes? Why would
the police shoot him? It's got to be more to
it than there. Unless you get to interview the guy
in the cowboy hat, I don't know how you're ever
going to solve it. There was an undercover cop, some
crazy lunatic obsessed with my dad, and there's so many
(06:47):
things you think about that dude, like was he like
put in this position to monitor my father? Was he
demoted from something and he was all bitter. I've put
so many thoughts into who the skuy could be a man,
(07:13):
How are you doing. I'm out of town, so Austin
and I are doing some studio coordination. Are you in
the studio? Yes, I'm preparing to call the guy in
the cowboy hat. He's in his early seventies, lives on
Long Island and goes by Ronnie. We won't be using
(07:33):
his last name. Well, I will tell you that when
I talked to Ronnie the other day, he did he
didn't seem extremely enthusiastic about this, you know, be cordial
and kind and nice and all that. He may be
a murderer, but he may not be so. All right,
(07:57):
well Ton fifty nine? Okay, were recording Austin talked to
me for a seke. Yes, Hello, Yeah, okay, that's good.
That's good. Okay, I'm gonna call Mr Holy sh it. Hello? Hi?
(08:25):
Is this Ronnie? Yeah? Hello? Hi? How are you fine?
How are you? I'm doing well? Um, thank you so
much for taking my call. I I don't know what
assistance I can give you, because really probably not much
other than that it's on like there's everything's on paper. Yeah,
(08:47):
you know. From my side, it's like, um, you're you're
probably going to be more useful than you think because
this was such a big moment in my my mom's life.
But because her and Billy weren't married, she was really
kept out of the loop on on everything, and so
over the last thirty seven years, it's kind of become
(09:09):
this mythological story of what happened, and you are the
only person who knows what happened that night. Well, I'm
sure she's a pensive naturally, of course you would be.
But it doesn't change back. Sure, and everything said, everything's
on paper totally was completely investigated in nine different ways,
(09:32):
and it was completely legitimate. Yeah, I know this is
a fragile situation and he can hang up at any second. God,
I have so many questions for you. I can I
just ask you one question just about Well, I'm just
I'm curious about you a little bit, like how did
(09:52):
you become a cop? No, that was a long story,
A long time ago. I was I was in school
for chemistry because I wasn't looking to become a police.
But it's a test. That was marriage. And then my
my wife had a baby. I was twenty years old.
I was in my second year of school and I
(10:15):
left it to go to a police of honor. Ronnie
started as a trainee in the late sixties. Once I
got in, I loved every minute of it. A great job.
It seems like a terrifying time to be a cop though,
and like, oh was it that? It was? Absolutely? It's
incredibly guys, How did how did you get into undercover work?
(10:36):
In particular priborly to be coming undercover? I was an
investigator and we had no one to cover, to go
out and d bias to go to an area. So
I did it. And then once I did it, did
it again and again and again. Next thing I know,
That's all I did, And I had some exciting cases,
(11:00):
in many exciting cases. Did you like work out better? Yeah?
Did you like working undercover? It seems stressful to me, Yes,
I did it. It was good because you had a
lot of control of the case. We were what were
some of them? The more exciting ones that worked out
better worked on the West East. The West East is
(11:24):
an Irish American gang that's dominated organized crime in the
Hill's Kitchen area of Manhattan for decades. There was Irish
gangs on the West side of Manhattan. They told me
to take them in htt and South told me that
they killed over Hunter, ripping them off contract killings. Even
among organized crime rings, the West East were considered especially brutal,
(11:48):
and we're known for dismembering those they killed as he
fell on the floor. That's how quick the plastic came
out and seven Department about an hour. Like man boats.
Almost impossible to get an inroad uh into the West Eaves.
I think I was like the primary undercovering the Western case,
(12:08):
and they had so much to introduce me to the people.
Ronnie says that in the mid eighties he went undercover
as a drug dealer to build a case against the
West East. It was just like a drug connection to them.
I was like a major drug dealer because they believed,
now you know what you're doing. Very often where a
(12:29):
wire hanging out with them, drinking, talking violin drinks like
my friends. It's not it's not that they like you
or anything like that, because I don't think they're like anybody.
If you killed twenty five people, what kind of person
would you be. They're looking to make money. They're just
hopeful that you'll be able to make money for them,
and Ronnie convinced them that he could make money for them.
(12:54):
They gave me like I think it was fifty or
sixty pounds of ampheta means that they stole an arm
robbery on consignment. But they also told how they got
this thing on a stick up on Laura. They put
eight people in a y, locked them in a room
circle that what they felt was a good athletic means,
and left with suitcases full of stuff. Like they thought
(13:16):
that I was like so connected, I could just sell
it off and give them a couple of hundred or
whatever they wanted, which of course I didn't. Instead, Ronnie
says he passed on the information to the NYPD and
the FBI. It was like very very exhilarating, and it
was do you beat them? They won over the bad guy.
(13:38):
You got them up the street and they really were
bad people. And those people all got put away. Yes
they did. For a very long time. I did quite
a few cases. I worked on the Banana, the sound
by the fish Market. The Bananas one of the major
Italian mafia families in New York City. They were into everything,
(14:02):
being one of them counter credit causes. The Times do
your name that they did it? Seventy five year old
Joseph Pinano, the reputed crime lord of New York City,
leader of one of the five mafia families. Tomorrow, he
goes on trial for allegedly interfering with the grand jury
invest designated another cover for a total of seventeen years,
(14:25):
I've done a total of over a thousand drug bies
in my career. Police say a string of storefronts were
used for the packaging and sale of illegal drugs. The
peddling took place on the Lower east Side here. Did
you work in the East Village in particular a lot
or were you all over New York. I did a
lot that was just one one location. I don't think
(14:45):
that they can never stop the drug flow in the
Lower east Side. I don't think we have enough Laura
forcement agents to stop that. After the break, Ronnie goes
to Third Avenue. Do you mind telling me just like
(15:05):
what happened that night? Even if I can't go up
with details obviously, I'm on the phone with Ronnie, the
undercover cop who shot Billy. Can you tell me a
little bit about your undercover persona that you had, Like
did you have like an outfit or something that you
wore back then? You know, I just tried to be
(15:26):
like fit in with the average drug deal. Depending on
a different case. M hm, did you ever wear a
cowboy hat? No? No, it's weird. There was this rumor
that it was that that you had been wearing a
cowboy hat, well someone else and they have been that
(15:47):
I wasn't. I never won a hat. Huh huh. Well,
do you remember like when you first heard the name
Billy Piano, because it sounds like he had a bit
of a reputation. Do you remember, well, right when we
got that from the informant, I did not know him.
Price to about the informant is the one got you?
(16:08):
Ronnie says. An informant tipped the police off to Billy
And was the informant part of a bigger case? Or
was that like a one off? It was part of
the case and it was a lodge of target. Obviously
it was not not my case. That was not the
investigator was the undercover. Another detective would have done the
(16:30):
investigation that all the backgrounds, found out who were buying
what we're doing, and then he would introduce me to
the informat the this is this basics of what they
do and then I get introduced to buy drugs. Do
you remember what the substance was that you had been
told he was selling. Yeah she was. He was showing obviously,
(16:52):
and we were. The idea was to get the connection.
It was beyond him, above him who totally was doing
had a bit of weight in heron in Heroin, Yes,
got you. Did that case ever go anywhere? And whatever
happened with that situation. I never worked for him again.
(17:13):
I'm sure that someone else did. So. I only had
one part in the case and that was it. It's
just one of those things. It went wrong. Ronnie says
that Billy called his supplier and Ronnie went into the bathroom.
(17:36):
I was writing down the connection phone number, and he
followed into the bathroom and you know, to me and
had a gun on me. I don't know what was said, well,
even if I was writing a phone number down to
pull a guns about it right? And then he cocked
the gun, which really set me off because when you cocked,
(17:57):
you have like a terre trigger, and you felt like
significantly afraid. It was the cocking that made you think, oh, like,
this guy's gonna actually shoot me. He's not the only
one that is posed ugon, I mean, but the only
one to convinced me he was about the fire. He
activated the round. It would have been in the chamber.
(18:18):
It was like not a good move on his part.
Ronnie says. Billy then backed out of the bathroom with
his gun still up. He went out trying to me
with the gun on me, and it was pretty uncomfortable.
He says. He took out his buy money, so that
was really basically to distract him because there was no
(18:38):
deal at that point. And then did the car quickly.
I thought that he fired. I saw coming. I think
it was a simultaneous fire. Ronnie says he thought Billy
had fired. He thought he saw sparks from Billy's gun.
(18:59):
In the police report, it says that Billy never fired
his gun. That was the only disagreement we had to
whether there was that first shot actually went off simultaneously
or I seeing my own sparks. I don't know where
sparks came from his direction, But was I actually saying
my own sparks as I don't know. I can only
(19:22):
say what I saw m but he is known to
fire his gun, according to the informant. Now, but the inflormant,
I believe it was totally totally truthful and he was
petrified of the guy. They said they never got the fire.
I said that he did because I saw the two
things and I'm the one who decoct the gun and
emptied it. Would that make a difference to you if
(19:45):
if it was that wouldn't have been at all? Mhm.
Did he seem erratic to you? Well, didn't he? He's
tears to me to be pretty high mh. I've I've
seen things go down where I just say, why would
this guy have done this? And drugs was very west
in the cause. What happens like right after you well,
(20:10):
right after everything we could save him to get into
the hospital again, checked up, but it's just you tried
to save him, yest. We did. We got him right
to the hospital. He was actually interviewed by by the
team afterwards because he was hospital and he survived initially.
Did you ever go see him in the hospital? I
(20:31):
know no, I'm sure you wouldn't wouldn't want visited for me.
I wonder if you're comfortable telling me a little bit
about like what you felt in that situation, Like was
that a rare occurrence or that conference that I actually
(20:53):
end up on a shoot out of any time? And
I was not happy with it at all. I mean,
you can't be happy being involved in something like that.
So it's bothered you not better cost did you didn't
want that to happen? Yeah, I can't amage anyone being
happy about it. Obviously, we were shooting people over the
(21:16):
cops are like forty years and he was the only one.
He's the only one. Yeah, oh my god, it's the
sad thing. I I don't know what's siring. Yeah, yeah,
it is a sad thing. It's it's really wild to
(21:37):
hear that in year forty years as a police officer,
he was the only one, the only one shot. That
must stick with you. Well, it is what it is.
I mean, yeah, that's nothing's gonna change it. So I
can't really talk too much more about it. I don't
(21:58):
want to get into anything like I'm not even probably Okay,
I don't want to go too far with it. Okay, Well,
thank you, thank you again. I really appreciate it. And um,
I hope you have a beautiful day. Insane to you.
Thank you very much, all right, take care bye bye, Hio.
(22:29):
Tell me what you're feeling. Uh. I sense an openness
from him. I get the sense that he cares. He
(22:49):
struck me as somebody caught between how much he believes
in his job and like a very human response, which was,
this is very unfortunate, and like he stopped short of
saying I'm sorry, but I could feel that from him,
(23:11):
like he wasn't he wasn't like fuck it, like whatever, yeah,
so what this happened? He was a fucking high maniac
like whatever. When he said we did everything we could
to save him, make sure he went straight to the hospital,
there's remorse there. I'm just looking over the questions that
(23:34):
we have for him, and it's like it was fucking heroin.
It was heroin. I also find it very interesting that
says he never wore a cowboy hat. I also find
it very interesting that says he never visited him in
the hospital, and his response to that also was interesting
(23:55):
because he said, well, no, I mean that would upset him.
We h. I find to be a very human answer
to the question of did you go see the man
who you just shot six times in the hospital, I
too would be like, well, no, he doesn't want to
see me. So he also gave some details about the
(24:19):
cocking of the gun that makes me think that he's
telling the truth about him remembering Billy cocking it. And
him being the one to decock it afterwards. Yeah, I
think him also emptying the gun, and it was a
very human detail. It doesn't seem like he was making
it up. Here's my my understanding right now. I don't
(24:45):
think Ronald went to that house to kill Billy balls
based on the information that we have, I don't believe
that I can see a world in which the bigger
case like what if. No, that doesn't make any fucking sense.
It's just like the conspiracy just falls apart from me.
(25:11):
It seems all really fucking unfortunate and stupid. Yeah, it's
all very sad. It's devastating because it didn't need to happen.
If Billy hadn't been erratic and high, probably and if
(25:33):
he hadn't had a gun, I wouldn't have shot him,
and all this tragedy, all this devastation of him being
ripped from my mom, And it seems to me that
it did not need to happen. As Ronnie has spent
(25:56):
thirty seven years probably telling himself that he did the
right thing, my mom has also spent thirty seven years
telling herself that he did the wrong thing, and then
this great tragedy and she was robbed, and Billy was
robbed in all of these things, and the whole thing
is just this like exercise and what the mind creates
(26:23):
versus what the reality is when you just have all
the fucking information alone in this world. She here, I
think she's here next week, so let me just take
off my coats. One last sit down with my mom.
(26:44):
They led to kill. It's the final chapter of the
Ballad of Billy Balls. Yea Crime Town is Zach Stewart
(27:11):
Pontier and Mark Smirling. The Ballad of Billy Balls is
hosted by me Io Till It Right and made in
partnership with Caden's Thirteen. You can find me on the internet.
Um Io loves you on everything. Do say hi, and
if you want to know more about my story, you
can pick up my memoir Darling Days. We also want
to hear from you. We have a voicemail set up
(27:33):
for you to call us and tell us whatever you want.
Here's a guy with good taste. Can I just say
I think that the the song is absolutely genius, absolutely genius.
It is perfect for the podcast. I wish you all
the very best regards to how this turns out, and
I have enjoyed the hell out of it. Thank you.
(27:54):
I totally agree everybody should check out the rest of
their music Light Asylum. They're the best. And if there's
something on your mind, thoughts, feelings, complaints, whatever, call us
and leave us a voicemail at five seven oh three,
nine to zero, especially if you have a family mystery.
I'm obsessed with hearing about them. You can also get
(28:16):
into our discussion forum on our website, The Ballad of
Billy Balls dot com. The show was produced by me,
Kevin Sheppard and Ryan Swygert. Our senior producers Austin Mitchell,
editing by Zach Stewart Contier and Mark Smirling. Fact checking
by Jennifer Blackman. This episode was mixed by Sam Bayer.
(28:37):
Music by Kenny Qca. Our title track is Dark Allies
by Light Asylum. Archival research by Brennan Reese. Special thanks
to Nicole Long, Thanks to Daniella Aria, Rachel Lee Wright,
Emily Wiederman, Green Card Pictures, Alessandro Centauro, Bill Clegg, Ben Davis,
or In Rosenbaum and the team at Cadence thirteen, and
(29:00):
of course my Mom, without whom none of this would
be possible. And this week I want to give an
extra shout out to Austin for his handy photo shop techniques.
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