July 4, 2019 • 41 mins
As the show comes to an end, iO tries to figure out what the wisdom of it is.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
For confidence in your financial plan, look for a CFP professional.
When your financial advisor earns the CFP certification, it means
he or she is trained to provide ethical financial planning
across a holistic range of topics, from retirement and investing
to taxes and estate planning, all in your best interest.
So with a CFP professional, you'll feel confident in your
(00:22):
financial plan today and tomorrow. Three letters do make a difference.
Visit Let's make a plan dot org to find your
CFP professional. Um, what okay? First of all, have you
been told anything about what we're doing? Not too much? Okay?
I gotta an email. It's something vague about family trauma.
(00:42):
I skimmed over the This is Dr Jacob hom He's
a clinical psychologist who runs the Center for Child Trauma
and Resilience at Mount Sinai. I asked him to come
talk to me about how trauma trickles down through generations.
Let me tell you a little bit about my story
and what happened with my mom and Jesus, where do
(01:03):
I even start. Basically, I am investigating the murder of
the love of my mother's life. I was born in
eighty five. He died in eighty two, and I tell
him the whole story about my mom's trauma and losing Billy,
about my childhood with her, and my choice to have
myself removed from her care. I'm visualizing like um layers
(01:26):
and layers of like armor of rage and toughness being
applied to you, a bunch of fuck you energy, you know, Doc,
It's like we've known each other a lot of time.
I loved her, very very deeply, but she was not
a tune to what I needed or wanted. And she
(01:46):
was suffering, which I think was the most painful thing.
She was really really suffering. Right, Your job was to
take care of her. See what's always you? And I
actually heard that from the moment you started, because when
you said, let me tell you about my childhood, where
do I begin? And then it starts three years before
(02:07):
you're born. It's always about her. First, you're killing me, doctor, Jesus.
None of this was your fault. You didn't deserve any
of this, and yet you are going to blame yourself,
and you're never gonna stop trying to pine after her
and seek her and get her to love you the
(02:29):
way that you really want. And it's such a fucking trap.
So I wonder for you, hearing that story and everything
that happened to her and all of the results of
it in as it manifested in my life, does that
make equal sense to you how she behaved? Um, I don't.
(02:54):
This is weird. I don't like that the story doesn't
matter to me. The way you tell it matters. It's like,
remember we watch like those music competitions, Like, Um, you
can have perfect pitch and perfect technique, but if you
don't sing it with your full heart, then it doesn't
move people and you don't get goose bumps. But you're
(03:16):
vibrating your hearts fucking vibrating, and it's going to come across.
I mean, what you're saying is that the vulnerability is
almost a superpower. It's like a communicative it's it's the answer. Well,
as I was listening to you speak, I was, um
(03:39):
seeing your heart hardened with the potential to just become
bitter and rageful, and instead you somehow use this process
to kind of like melt the hard edges, and you
yourself developed the capacity for empathy and connection. So don't
(04:00):
fight what you're supposed to be and just like try
to figure out what the wisdom of it is. Today,
I try to figure out what the wisdom of it
is from Crimetown. I'm io till it right. And this
(04:25):
is the final episode of the Ballad of Billy Balls.
Off the elevator comes Dooey Balls, and my god, that
was fucking it. It's called love it first sight. Remember
(04:54):
back we called me, you know if she called me
right after it happens, because Billy has been shot the
car quickly, I feel it that he fired and I
was not happy with it at all. I mean, if
you can't be happy being involved in something like that,
(05:16):
I'm gonna find them. We're gonna find them. Okay, okay.
Potter's Field on Hard Island is a small patch of
land in the easternmost parts of the Bronx. To me,
scheduling a visit, she was more like his wife, so
I would definitely schedule her for a family or loved
(05:39):
one type visits so vile that there's someone under this
ground and you would never know it. I don't know
how to do the right thing for her. Ship and
movies is so neat, you know. Real life isn't like
(06:01):
that chapter thirt Life After Death. What's what's happening her.
I don't feel like I should have proud a bottle
of wine or something. I'm so like anxious. This project
(06:24):
has affected a lot of people, but in particular a
person I didn't know existed when we started out, Amanda
Billy's daughter. Austin asked her to come by the studio
one last time to tell her everything we've discovered. Did
your grandmother Your grandmother told you something though, Yeah, she
said that he was in a Potter's gray, but she
never knew exactly where he begins with Hart Island. We
(06:49):
found that he is buried on Heart Island and this
is the original ledger, the ledger of Um where he's buried.
The grave number m hm height Man. There's no z right,
and that's why we couldn't find him. UM. You can
(07:11):
go if you want to. I don't know who wrote huh.
I probably wouldn't. I don't know who i'd go up
there with. Well, I mean, i'd go up there with
you if you want, but that's not I don't know
pressure or anything for that. This is just information that
(07:31):
I want you to have, UM, and you can do
with it what you will, but you I just want
you to know that you are, You're able to go wow.
So this is is it the police report that's the
NYPD released to us? Is this my copy that yours?
(07:56):
So this is what the undercover cop is saying. Yeah.
So basically the story was that this guy went to
make a narcotics purchase from your dad. Austin goes through
the undercover cops story that he was buying heroin from
her dad when things went wrong, and that Billy pulled
a gun so he shot him. Silly, that's so strange.
(08:23):
I don't even know. There's so much here. Is there
any more stuff from Rebecca, like pictures and any recordings
or anything. So that is the final thing that I
have for you. Let me get get it. So I
made you a little thing. Oh my god, I want it.
Thank you. We made Amanda a compilation of some of
(08:46):
Billy's music. So these are some Rebecca's pictures, and we
made copies of my mom's pictures of Billy pictures Amanda's
(09:07):
never had, and put together a photo album for her.
Thank you. There's the photo of Billy smoking a cigarette
with his band with his hand down his pants. It's
so crazy because that was the band that he had
with Cheetah chrome. There's a photo of Billy standing inside
(09:28):
his apartment. You see his piano and his white shoes.
It looked like they might be like jazz shoes. Maybe
he did seem to like addressing up or wearing. Yeah,
he was very into his clothes. And there's a grainy
photo of a toddler standing next to her dad. Oh wow,
(09:52):
looks like my daughter. It looks like a kid thing
right there. All right, some teddy bear like they made
a little effort. Yeah. I just want to ask about
your feelings about all this now, after you've been through
(10:15):
so much of this with us. It's a lot to
think about. I wasn't really thinking about it before it
was all started. I mean, this whole thing came to
me out of nowhere. So it's a lot to process,
for sure. Just a lot of information I've received that's
I've been pretty upsetting. Um, I don't know, it's been
(10:41):
pretty upsetting. I guess. I guess that's what I can say.
I don't know. I don't want to not like him.
I never grew up not liking him, but now I'm
not the biggest fan. And it would have been fine
to go through my life and not have that. You know,
(11:04):
I knew that he made a lot of bad choices.
I knew that he used a lot of drugs. I
just didn't want to overthink the details of everything that
went along with that. It's what's it gonna do for me?
I'm not a psychiatrist. I'm not writing a thesis on this.
I met my life. You know, I don't really think
about my parents like in this like poor me kind
(11:24):
of way. But they were incredibly fucked up people. There's
no question about it. They're really bad, bad, bad parents.
So you don't really need to be reminded of that
because you spend most of your life as an adult
trying to get over that. This isn't about me, but
(11:50):
it certainly affected me, and it didn't need to. It
didn't need to at all. I just need I was
just needed to get documents because I'm the only one
related to this guy. It's just difficult because of that. Um.
But it's nice to see pictures of him and see
(12:13):
you know, resemblances and things like that. Yeah, I'm sorry,
it's complicated. I'm sorry, and thank you. You're welcome. It's
so strange, like I've already made peace with this ship
(12:37):
like this was buried on Heart Island a long time ago.
It's Heart Island. You know. I'm alive. He's not. And
there's a reason. So same with my mother. I mean,
I watched the destructive behavior my entire life. I I
(13:01):
don't want to be that, and I didn't want to
be That's that's it, thank you? All right, let's call
it to so much. The truth has a different purpose
for everybody um involved, Like, what's it for? What's it
(13:23):
good for? My dad? Seth. A documentary is just a
sequence of digging and discoveries, and it cannot be projected
in advance. You know where it's going or what even
what its purposes. In a way, it's it's very mysterious.
That's the mystery, not who killed Billy, but who needs
(13:44):
to know and what that knowledge is for. That's very
mysterious to me. I'm not sure it's coming time to
tell my mom about what we've found. I want to
give her closure, and I'm hoping my dad will have
an idea about how best to do that. You are
the only other person who knows my mom as intimately
as I do. What do you think justice looks like
(14:08):
for her? There's no justice in this because I don't
think justice um has anything to do with truth with facts.
You can ask her, do you want to know it?
Let her have the first refusal, don't confront her. I
(14:32):
think that she found a life after death, you know,
after murder, that she got you. You know, that is
like adding a life as opposed to subtracting a life.
That's justice that she made it through this. So ask
(14:54):
her what you should. Let her tell you how much
she wants to know. M Um, what's about to happen?
Where are we talk to me? So my mom is
on our way here to the studio, and I'm gonna
give her the option of knowing what we've found throughout
(15:16):
this process. I don't plan to show her any photos.
They don't plan to show her the death certificate unless
she asks for it, or the police report for that matter.
And I'm a little bit nervous about how she I mean,
this is the crossroads, right, It's like, does she want
(15:37):
to hear reality or does she want to stay in
her version of things. It's been some fucking fireworks lately.
But what do you mean by that? She hasn't listened
to the show and she's been having a certain degree
(16:00):
freak out about it, calling me in increasingly frantic states
and alternately yelling at me or crying or just like
getting really crazed about it, because when you don't know
what's in something, your brain spins to the worst. I
(16:22):
pull up a voicemail my mom recently left me. All right,
So I'm just gonna put on some different headphones, and
out of respect, I'm not going to play it here,
but I'm sharing it with Austin. My mom's unleashing a
spew of brutality. She says, I'm trying to rewrite her
(16:44):
history with Billy, and she's disowning me. Oh man, Oh,
I'm sorry. Man, that sucks. That's really hard. It's hard
to listen to. It's like, man, oh man, that's sucking
(17:05):
me up a little bit. Um. Yeah, it's crazy to
see it affects somebody else because it makes me realize
what I'm used to. It's just so it's just right
to the bone. It's growing up I didn't have I
didn't experience anything like that. Um. I'm not used to
(17:28):
hearing things like that, I guess. And I'm just really
sorry that this this has been your life and this
is other people who are listening. I'm sure this is
their life, and I don't know. I don't know what's up.
Thanks Austin, Yeah, I don't thank me. I mean thank
(17:52):
you for going into this ship and and you know,
opening yourself up to the world at least telling this
the story and then like man like you, you survived
some ship. She here, I think she's here. Yeah, she's here. Okay,
(18:20):
let's go get her after the break. My mom, let
me just take off my coats. Yes, well it's hot
(18:43):
a coat. My mom's just arrived at the studio for
a final interview. She's wearing her standard black tank top
and black pants. Her hair is pulled back in a
little wet. She's been swimming at a pool in Midtown.
I love to swim. I'm good swimmer, you know, alnce
your back and muscles. As she settles in, a silence
(19:07):
falls over us. It's tense. Wh I guess you know
this is not some like big formatted reveal of anything.
I just wanted to, you know, give you the opportunity
(19:28):
to know as much as you want to know. And
I don't know what there is to know, so how
would I know? How much do I want to know. Well,
here's a little packet of papers for you of stuff
that we found about Billie's history when he was a kid.
That's pretty cute. Um. This first one is an article
(19:53):
from his birth announcing his birth from the Red Band.
I start by taking my mom um through Billy's childhood
in New Jersey, where he grouped the highest honor mark
went to William Heightsman Red Bank. He would have been
like eight years old or something. He was like winning
awards for his piano playing. Wow, he told me he
(20:14):
never had a piano lessons. Yeah, he lied. Trying to
impress you. I tell her about how Billy sang in
his elementary school choir, about how he won a bicycle
safety poster contest when he was ten, and that we
talked with some of his childhood friends who remembered Billy
(20:36):
as a unique and rambunctious kid. Then jumps to when
he was fifteen, and this article says FBI nabs youth
in Florida. Hold up from when he tied that guy
to the radiator toilet toilet toilet changed. But it was interesting.
(20:58):
We tracked down the guy who he did that robbery
with his son is still alive, and the Sun said
that Billy set the robbery up with the owner of
the shoe store, like the guy was trying to pull
some insurance scam. Then he got a bunch of like
(21:18):
ship as an older teenager for noise violations from noisy mufflers,
you know. So then I guess very shortly after that
he moved to New York and like that kind of
stuff kind of stops, which leads us to the less
(21:44):
fun things. This is up to you what or how
much you want to know. But what I will tell
you to kill? No, No, not at all, not at all.
It's entirely up to you. I just want you to
know that, like we got his death certificate, we got
(22:07):
his the police report from the incident um and all
that stuff gave us a lot of information which we
then took to ron Kube and dissected with him to
try to understand what happened. And against all odds, we
(22:28):
found the name of the guy in the cowboy had
and we found him. You found him, like that guy's
walking around. He's still alive. So charges I want to
(22:49):
know about charges against him? Yes, well, I guess I
mean the charge that was going to be leveled against
Billy was attempted murder of a police officer. You know
that they charged him with possession of a gun. And
(23:11):
that's what they always say, legally speaking, if you pull
a gun on a cop, that's what they always say,
even if you don't know that they're a cop. Billy
told me and the lawyers that he had no gun,
all right. Yeah, when something happened so long ago, you
(23:37):
have to piece together the surrounding narratives. So we talked
to Cheetah and we talked to Geeta, and we talked
to Animal X, and we talked to Chris, and we
talked to Marino. We talked to all these different people,
and you extensively to try to piece together the narrative
of who Billy was. And like all that is to
(24:01):
try to piece together the likelihood of what somebody would
do in a situation. The likelihood has nothing to do
with the reality. I think that if somebody's not here,
somebody shoot someone. Is that acceptable in this society? I mean,
(24:23):
I'm not going to fight you on it. But he
owned guns his whole life. So the idea that he
would have gotten rid of all of the guns, to
me personally seems very very unlikely, and I think the sad,
very hard to swallow reality of the situation legally speaking,
(24:47):
is that if you pull a gun on a police officer,
they have the right to shoot you. That's what they
always say. There's no evidence that it wasn't his gun.
That's so easy to arrange. Also, the other aspect that
(25:12):
we've pretty solidly confirmed with you and other people as
ability was selling drugs and the guy wasn't undercovering our
conics detective small time, little ship, you know, like you know,
a little nothing big like that would warrant like a
big shootdown. And you're not interested in the narrative that
(25:41):
they you know, I'm not interested in their bullshit lies.
I'm sure it's another cruck of shit, you know. I
really don't care what bullshit they have to say. How
(26:02):
do you feel right now? How do you think I feel?
I don't know your bottle rocket, It could go a
lot of different ways. Do you want to know what
I think? Or do you not care? Um? If it's
a theory, I don't want to hear it because it's
not relevant. There's facts and there's theories, you know, Okay,
(26:33):
do you want to know anything about the cop or
any of that stuff. I'd like to see him fry
and be six ft under all right, That's that's it.
I spoke to him, really, yeah, he spoke to me.
(26:53):
What did you say to him? I said, my family's
life has been largely defined by this day, and you
were the only other person in the room that night,
and I would like to know what you say happened.
(27:15):
And the cop basically is like, he pulled a gun
on me and then I shot him and that's why.
And the cop says that there was that was the
only person in his entire career that that's ever happened with.
Fuck him. So where is this freak? He lives on
(27:46):
Long Island? On Long Islands? What's his name? Are you
sure you want to know that? Yeah? I want to know. Why?
Why do you think? I don't Yeah, I don't know, Mom,
I don't know, but I don't know. Are you sure
you want to know that? I don't know? If why
(28:09):
tell me why you want to know that? So I
can make a decision on whether or not it's wise
to tell you this. I just want to know. His
name is Ron? Ron? What's I don't know? Mom? Let's
(28:30):
I gotta think about whether or not it's smart. It's
a kids to tell you that, because it's it's an
very complicated situation, and the position that you're in is
incredibly infuriating and disempowering. And I know you, and I
(28:54):
know your temper and the depth of the rage around
the situation, and I think it would be probably pretty stupid.
I know, Mom, that Billy was the love of your life,
and I know that you loved him more than anything else.
(29:18):
I know that, But is there a world in which
you could imagine that he had anything to do with
it and might have provoked that situation at all? There
were no guns. I know that he told you that.
(29:40):
In terms of likelihood, the guy who owned guns his
whole life probably had a gun. He told me otherwise,
all right, he told me otherwise. So wouldn't you say
your interpretation is that accurate? Because you didn't know him.
(30:05):
He's dead. But I'm translating because I have a right.
He told me. We're at a stalemate. And I'm reminded
(30:27):
of a moment I had with Dr Harm, the clinical
psychologist from the top of the show. She has a
story that she's told herself for thirty seven years. That
involves this great injustice and the police doing something bad
and violating her family, and what we have to say
might take that apart. So do you have thoughts around
(30:48):
how to deal with that? I'm not sure I understand
your question. The reason why I'm not companying your question
is because all I see is you're doing it again,
doing one again. Your your entire existence is centered around
orbits around fixing your mom. She has her own journey
(31:12):
and she's bequeathed this. She's like set you on your
path to help heal both of you, And the most
important thing that you can do is to fix the
stuff inside of you and then stay with her moment
to moment, not in the past. So when she disappoints you,
enrages you, does something right, then can you like respond
(31:35):
authentically to that and help her like be present with you.
So you're saying, the most healing thing is to get
right with myself so that I can be with her
in the present moment. Yeah, I thrive on understanding and context,
(31:59):
and my forgiveness is directly tied to well, but why
did you do that? And if you can give me
a why that my brain can comprehend you're off the hook.
That's why I'm a little afraid of making the meaning
making part, because I'd rather that you forgive and connect
(32:19):
even if you can't make sense of it. Mhm. I
struggle with that. I struggle with that. It's a little
bit too much to ask of people. But it's like
real surrender. I was going to say that is the
definition of surrender. Just is what it is, and therefore
it has to be okay, right, It's like I love
(32:41):
you despite all this, even if I can't make sense
of it, I still love you, and I know that
you still love me in some way. So all this
past ship doesn't matter. It mattered for your journey, but
the end goal is radically authentic presence with another person.
(33:04):
Let her stop running, make her feel safe, see her.
That's the greatest gift that you've given her, actually to
see her. There is an ending here, but it's not
going to come from my mom. It has to come
(33:27):
from me. I don't always understand my mom, but I
love her and I know that she loves me too,
fiercely and deeply. I'm choosing to accept what we have
rather than wishing for something that doesn't exist. Sitting next
(33:48):
to her in the studio, I surrender will you. There
was a story about you guys going to Boston, right,
oh Boston, Oh good in the snow, in the snow,
(34:12):
That's what it was, right, it was. I was wearing.
It was very cheap, like double knit forest green sparkle
shell with his zip up the back and mini skirts
with the last sized waist but not bunchy and black
(34:34):
fuck me pumps with no stockings. His car had no
floor because he was working on it as we went
in the blizzard, so writing and the snows coming up
through the floor. Oh god, so so good. But here
(35:00):
his favorite songs too, like practice singing to like what
like see of love? Ship, Come with me my love
to the sea, the sea of La Dude, remember when
(35:28):
when met That's the day I knew you all my
bed I want to tell you, um shot. I imagine
(35:52):
her draped across the bench seat, her bleached blonde head
resting on Billy's thigh as he skids through the snow,
a cigarette dangling from his mouth. She reaches up and
caresses the collar bones of the man she will love forever.
As they sing together. Freezing air flies up from the
(36:17):
highway below. But they're unfazed, warmed by love good two
sie Ah Love. Do you remember when we met? That's
(36:48):
the day I knew you were my pet. I wanna
tell you how much I love you. Oh h m hmm, yeah, okay,
(37:20):
you're ready to stop, all right? I love you, Mom,
I love you my book. You can have some more
(37:44):
positive questions if you like, but I think that's a
great way to end the whole show. H Primetown is
(38:35):
Zach Stewart Pontier and Mark Smirling. The Ballad of Billy
Balls is hosted by me Io till it Right and
made in partnership with Cadence thirteen. You can find me
on the Internet. I'm Io loves you on everything, and
if you want to know more about my story, you
can pick up my memoir Darling Days. One of my
favorite parts of this experience has been getting voicemails from
(38:58):
you listeners to a more than ever. I want to
hear your thoughts and feelings. Call us and leave us
a voicemail. You can say whatever you want. We're at
five seven oh three, nine to nine zero. It would
mean the world to me. The show is produced by
(39:19):
me Kevin Sheppard and Ryan Swygert. Our senior producers Austin Mitchell,
editing by Zach Stewart Pontier and Mark Smirling. Fact checking
by Jennifer Blackman. This episode was mixed by Kenny Qca.
Music and sound design by Kenny Qca. Our title track
is Dark Allies by Light Asylum. Archival research by Brennan Reese.
(39:47):
Thanks to Daniella Aria, Rachel Lee Wright, Emily Wiedemann, Green
Card Pictures, Alessandro Sentauro, Bill Clegg, Cassie Evaschewsky, Ben Davis,
or In Rosenbaum, and the team at Cadence thirteen MM.
I want to take a minute to thank my partner
(40:09):
on this intense voyage, Austin. I could never have made
this thing without you, man, and I don't know what
I'm gonna do without you now. I guess we have
to make something else together. Zach, Mark, Kevin Ryan, and
the entire team. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
You've made this dream a beautiful reality. Thank you to
(40:35):
everyone who gave us their time and interviews. To Melinda
Hunt for her work to open Heart Island, to Miss
Calvert for understanding love, to Cora for being my chosen
family and to my dad for never shutting off and
always moving towards me even when it hurts. I want
to thank my fiance Rachel for listening to every episode
(40:58):
ninety times and holding me up when it was too hard.
I also want to thank every one of you who's
listened to this all the way through. If you're hearing
me say this right now, you've listened through the whole
of the credits, which means that you're a real one.
Please find me on the internet and say hello, stay
in touch. I'll miss you, and I'm also sorry about
(41:19):
all those two week breaks. And finally, of course, my mom,
without whom none of this would be possible. It hasn't
been simple, but I guess that's what makes it beautiful. Yeah,
For confidence in your financial plan, look for a CFP professional.
When your financial advisor earns the CFP certification, it means
he or she is trained to provide ethical financial planning
across a holistic range of topics, from retirement and investing
to taxes and estate planning, all in your best interest.
So with a CFP professional, you'll feel confident in your
(00:22):
financial plan today and tomorrow. Three letters do make a difference.
Visit Let's make a plan dot org to find your
CFP professional. Um, what okay? First of all, have you
been told anything about what we're doing? Not too much? Okay?
I gotta an email. It's something vague about family trauma.
(00:42):
I skimmed over the This is Dr Jacob hom He's
a clinical psychologist who runs the Center for Child Trauma
and Resilience at Mount Sinai. I asked him to come
talk to me about how trauma trickles down through generations.
Let me tell you a little bit about my story
and what happened with my mom and Jesus, where do
(01:03):
I even start. Basically, I am investigating the murder of
the love of my mother's life. I was born in
eighty five. He died in eighty two, and I tell
him the whole story about my mom's trauma and losing Billy,
about my childhood with her, and my choice to have
myself removed from her care. I'm visualizing like um layers
(01:26):
and layers of like armor of rage and toughness being
applied to you, a bunch of fuck you energy, you know, Doc,
It's like we've known each other a lot of time.
I loved her, very very deeply, but she was not
a tune to what I needed or wanted. And she
(01:46):
was suffering, which I think was the most painful thing.
She was really really suffering. Right, Your job was to
take care of her. See what's always you? And I
actually heard that from the moment you started, because when
you said, let me tell you about my childhood, where
do I begin? And then it starts three years before
(02:07):
you're born. It's always about her. First, you're killing me, doctor, Jesus.
None of this was your fault. You didn't deserve any
of this, and yet you are going to blame yourself,
and you're never gonna stop trying to pine after her
and seek her and get her to love you the
(02:29):
way that you really want. And it's such a fucking trap.
So I wonder for you, hearing that story and everything
that happened to her and all of the results of
it in as it manifested in my life, does that
make equal sense to you how she behaved? Um, I don't.
(02:54):
This is weird. I don't like that the story doesn't
matter to me. The way you tell it matters. It's like,
remember we watch like those music competitions, Like, Um, you
can have perfect pitch and perfect technique, but if you
don't sing it with your full heart, then it doesn't
move people and you don't get goose bumps. But you're
(03:16):
vibrating your hearts fucking vibrating, and it's going to come across.
I mean, what you're saying is that the vulnerability is
almost a superpower. It's like a communicative it's it's the answer. Well,
as I was listening to you speak, I was, um
(03:39):
seeing your heart hardened with the potential to just become
bitter and rageful, and instead you somehow use this process
to kind of like melt the hard edges, and you
yourself developed the capacity for empathy and connection. So don't
(04:00):
fight what you're supposed to be and just like try
to figure out what the wisdom of it is. Today,
I try to figure out what the wisdom of it
is from Crimetown. I'm io till it right. And this
(04:25):
is the final episode of the Ballad of Billy Balls.
Off the elevator comes Dooey Balls, and my god, that
was fucking it. It's called love it first sight. Remember
(04:54):
back we called me, you know if she called me
right after it happens, because Billy has been shot the
car quickly, I feel it that he fired and I
was not happy with it at all. I mean, if
you can't be happy being involved in something like that,
(05:16):
I'm gonna find them. We're gonna find them. Okay, okay.
Potter's Field on Hard Island is a small patch of
land in the easternmost parts of the Bronx. To me,
scheduling a visit, she was more like his wife, so
I would definitely schedule her for a family or loved
(05:39):
one type visits so vile that there's someone under this
ground and you would never know it. I don't know
how to do the right thing for her. Ship and
movies is so neat, you know. Real life isn't like
(06:01):
that chapter thirt Life After Death. What's what's happening her.
I don't feel like I should have proud a bottle
of wine or something. I'm so like anxious. This project
(06:24):
has affected a lot of people, but in particular a
person I didn't know existed when we started out, Amanda
Billy's daughter. Austin asked her to come by the studio
one last time to tell her everything we've discovered. Did
your grandmother Your grandmother told you something though, Yeah, she
said that he was in a Potter's gray, but she
never knew exactly where he begins with Hart Island. We
(06:49):
found that he is buried on Heart Island and this
is the original ledger, the ledger of Um where he's buried.
The grave number m hm height Man. There's no z right,
and that's why we couldn't find him. UM. You can
(07:11):
go if you want to. I don't know who wrote huh.
I probably wouldn't. I don't know who i'd go up
there with. Well, I mean, i'd go up there with
you if you want, but that's not I don't know
pressure or anything for that. This is just information that
(07:31):
I want you to have, UM, and you can do
with it what you will, but you I just want
you to know that you are, You're able to go wow.
So this is is it the police report that's the
NYPD released to us? Is this my copy that yours?
(07:56):
So this is what the undercover cop is saying. Yeah.
So basically the story was that this guy went to
make a narcotics purchase from your dad. Austin goes through
the undercover cops story that he was buying heroin from
her dad when things went wrong, and that Billy pulled
a gun so he shot him. Silly, that's so strange.
(08:23):
I don't even know. There's so much here. Is there
any more stuff from Rebecca, like pictures and any recordings
or anything. So that is the final thing that I
have for you. Let me get get it. So I
made you a little thing. Oh my god, I want it.
Thank you. We made Amanda a compilation of some of
(08:46):
Billy's music. So these are some Rebecca's pictures, and we
made copies of my mom's pictures of Billy pictures Amanda's
(09:07):
never had, and put together a photo album for her.
Thank you. There's the photo of Billy smoking a cigarette
with his band with his hand down his pants. It's
so crazy because that was the band that he had
with Cheetah chrome. There's a photo of Billy standing inside
(09:28):
his apartment. You see his piano and his white shoes.
It looked like they might be like jazz shoes. Maybe
he did seem to like addressing up or wearing. Yeah,
he was very into his clothes. And there's a grainy
photo of a toddler standing next to her dad. Oh wow,
(09:52):
looks like my daughter. It looks like a kid thing
right there. All right, some teddy bear like they made
a little effort. Yeah. I just want to ask about
your feelings about all this now, after you've been through
(10:15):
so much of this with us. It's a lot to
think about. I wasn't really thinking about it before it
was all started. I mean, this whole thing came to
me out of nowhere. So it's a lot to process,
for sure. Just a lot of information I've received that's
I've been pretty upsetting. Um, I don't know, it's been
(10:41):
pretty upsetting. I guess. I guess that's what I can say.
I don't know. I don't want to not like him.
I never grew up not liking him, but now I'm
not the biggest fan. And it would have been fine
to go through my life and not have that. You know,
(11:04):
I knew that he made a lot of bad choices.
I knew that he used a lot of drugs. I
just didn't want to overthink the details of everything that
went along with that. It's what's it gonna do for me?
I'm not a psychiatrist. I'm not writing a thesis on this.
I met my life. You know, I don't really think
about my parents like in this like poor me kind
(11:24):
of way. But they were incredibly fucked up people. There's
no question about it. They're really bad, bad, bad parents.
So you don't really need to be reminded of that
because you spend most of your life as an adult
trying to get over that. This isn't about me, but
(11:50):
it certainly affected me, and it didn't need to. It
didn't need to at all. I just need I was
just needed to get documents because I'm the only one
related to this guy. It's just difficult because of that. Um.
But it's nice to see pictures of him and see
(12:13):
you know, resemblances and things like that. Yeah, I'm sorry,
it's complicated. I'm sorry, and thank you. You're welcome. It's
so strange, like I've already made peace with this ship
(12:37):
like this was buried on Heart Island a long time ago.
It's Heart Island. You know. I'm alive. He's not. And
there's a reason. So same with my mother. I mean,
I watched the destructive behavior my entire life. I I
(13:01):
don't want to be that, and I didn't want to
be That's that's it, thank you? All right, let's call
it to so much. The truth has a different purpose
for everybody um involved, Like, what's it for? What's it
(13:23):
good for? My dad? Seth. A documentary is just a
sequence of digging and discoveries, and it cannot be projected
in advance. You know where it's going or what even
what its purposes. In a way, it's it's very mysterious.
That's the mystery, not who killed Billy, but who needs
(13:44):
to know and what that knowledge is for. That's very
mysterious to me. I'm not sure it's coming time to
tell my mom about what we've found. I want to
give her closure, and I'm hoping my dad will have
an idea about how best to do that. You are
the only other person who knows my mom as intimately
as I do. What do you think justice looks like
(14:08):
for her? There's no justice in this because I don't
think justice um has anything to do with truth with facts.
You can ask her, do you want to know it?
Let her have the first refusal, don't confront her. I
(14:32):
think that she found a life after death, you know,
after murder, that she got you. You know, that is
like adding a life as opposed to subtracting a life.
That's justice that she made it through this. So ask
(14:54):
her what you should. Let her tell you how much
she wants to know. M Um, what's about to happen?
Where are we talk to me? So my mom is
on our way here to the studio, and I'm gonna
give her the option of knowing what we've found throughout
(15:16):
this process. I don't plan to show her any photos.
They don't plan to show her the death certificate unless
she asks for it, or the police report for that matter.
And I'm a little bit nervous about how she I mean,
this is the crossroads, right, It's like, does she want
(15:37):
to hear reality or does she want to stay in
her version of things. It's been some fucking fireworks lately.
But what do you mean by that? She hasn't listened
to the show and she's been having a certain degree
(16:00):
freak out about it, calling me in increasingly frantic states
and alternately yelling at me or crying or just like
getting really crazed about it, because when you don't know
what's in something, your brain spins to the worst. I
(16:22):
pull up a voicemail my mom recently left me. All right,
So I'm just gonna put on some different headphones, and
out of respect, I'm not going to play it here,
but I'm sharing it with Austin. My mom's unleashing a
spew of brutality. She says, I'm trying to rewrite her
(16:44):
history with Billy, and she's disowning me. Oh man, Oh,
I'm sorry. Man, that sucks. That's really hard. It's hard
to listen to. It's like, man, oh man, that's sucking
(17:05):
me up a little bit. Um. Yeah, it's crazy to
see it affects somebody else because it makes me realize
what I'm used to. It's just so it's just right
to the bone. It's growing up I didn't have I
didn't experience anything like that. Um. I'm not used to
(17:28):
hearing things like that, I guess. And I'm just really
sorry that this this has been your life and this
is other people who are listening. I'm sure this is
their life, and I don't know. I don't know what's up.
Thanks Austin, Yeah, I don't thank me. I mean thank
(17:52):
you for going into this ship and and you know,
opening yourself up to the world at least telling this
the story and then like man like you, you survived
some ship. She here, I think she's here. Yeah, she's here. Okay,
(18:20):
let's go get her after the break. My mom, let
me just take off my coats. Yes, well it's hot
(18:43):
a coat. My mom's just arrived at the studio for
a final interview. She's wearing her standard black tank top
and black pants. Her hair is pulled back in a
little wet. She's been swimming at a pool in Midtown.
I love to swim. I'm good swimmer, you know, alnce
your back and muscles. As she settles in, a silence
(19:07):
falls over us. It's tense. Wh I guess you know
this is not some like big formatted reveal of anything.
I just wanted to, you know, give you the opportunity
(19:28):
to know as much as you want to know. And
I don't know what there is to know, so how
would I know? How much do I want to know. Well,
here's a little packet of papers for you of stuff
that we found about Billie's history when he was a kid.
That's pretty cute. Um. This first one is an article
(19:53):
from his birth announcing his birth from the Red Band.
I start by taking my mom um through Billy's childhood
in New Jersey, where he grouped the highest honor mark
went to William Heightsman Red Bank. He would have been
like eight years old or something. He was like winning
awards for his piano playing. Wow, he told me he
(20:14):
never had a piano lessons. Yeah, he lied. Trying to
impress you. I tell her about how Billy sang in
his elementary school choir, about how he won a bicycle
safety poster contest when he was ten, and that we
talked with some of his childhood friends who remembered Billy
(20:36):
as a unique and rambunctious kid. Then jumps to when
he was fifteen, and this article says FBI nabs youth
in Florida. Hold up from when he tied that guy
to the radiator toilet toilet toilet changed. But it was interesting.
(20:58):
We tracked down the guy who he did that robbery
with his son is still alive, and the Sun said
that Billy set the robbery up with the owner of
the shoe store, like the guy was trying to pull
some insurance scam. Then he got a bunch of like
(21:18):
ship as an older teenager for noise violations from noisy mufflers,
you know. So then I guess very shortly after that
he moved to New York and like that kind of
stuff kind of stops, which leads us to the less
(21:44):
fun things. This is up to you what or how
much you want to know. But what I will tell
you to kill? No, No, not at all, not at all.
It's entirely up to you. I just want you to
know that, like we got his death certificate, we got
(22:07):
his the police report from the incident um and all
that stuff gave us a lot of information which we
then took to ron Kube and dissected with him to
try to understand what happened. And against all odds, we
(22:28):
found the name of the guy in the cowboy had
and we found him. You found him, like that guy's
walking around. He's still alive. So charges I want to
(22:49):
know about charges against him? Yes, well, I guess I
mean the charge that was going to be leveled against
Billy was attempted murder of a police officer. You know
that they charged him with possession of a gun. And
(23:11):
that's what they always say, legally speaking, if you pull
a gun on a cop, that's what they always say,
even if you don't know that they're a cop. Billy
told me and the lawyers that he had no gun,
all right. Yeah, when something happened so long ago, you
(23:37):
have to piece together the surrounding narratives. So we talked
to Cheetah and we talked to Geeta, and we talked
to Animal X, and we talked to Chris, and we
talked to Marino. We talked to all these different people,
and you extensively to try to piece together the narrative
of who Billy was. And like all that is to
(24:01):
try to piece together the likelihood of what somebody would
do in a situation. The likelihood has nothing to do
with the reality. I think that if somebody's not here,
somebody shoot someone. Is that acceptable in this society? I mean,
(24:23):
I'm not going to fight you on it. But he
owned guns his whole life. So the idea that he
would have gotten rid of all of the guns, to
me personally seems very very unlikely, and I think the sad,
very hard to swallow reality of the situation legally speaking,
(24:47):
is that if you pull a gun on a police officer,
they have the right to shoot you. That's what they
always say. There's no evidence that it wasn't his gun.
That's so easy to arrange. Also, the other aspect that
(25:12):
we've pretty solidly confirmed with you and other people as
ability was selling drugs and the guy wasn't undercovering our
conics detective small time, little ship, you know, like you know,
a little nothing big like that would warrant like a
big shootdown. And you're not interested in the narrative that
(25:41):
they you know, I'm not interested in their bullshit lies.
I'm sure it's another cruck of shit, you know. I
really don't care what bullshit they have to say. How
(26:02):
do you feel right now? How do you think I feel?
I don't know your bottle rocket, It could go a
lot of different ways. Do you want to know what
I think? Or do you not care? Um? If it's
a theory, I don't want to hear it because it's
not relevant. There's facts and there's theories, you know, Okay,
(26:33):
do you want to know anything about the cop or
any of that stuff. I'd like to see him fry
and be six ft under all right, That's that's it.
I spoke to him, really, yeah, he spoke to me.
(26:53):
What did you say to him? I said, my family's
life has been largely defined by this day, and you
were the only other person in the room that night,
and I would like to know what you say happened.
(27:15):
And the cop basically is like, he pulled a gun
on me and then I shot him and that's why.
And the cop says that there was that was the
only person in his entire career that that's ever happened with.
Fuck him. So where is this freak? He lives on
(27:46):
Long Island? On Long Islands? What's his name? Are you
sure you want to know that? Yeah? I want to know. Why?
Why do you think? I don't Yeah, I don't know, Mom,
I don't know, but I don't know. Are you sure
you want to know that? I don't know? If why
(28:09):
tell me why you want to know that? So I
can make a decision on whether or not it's wise
to tell you this. I just want to know. His
name is Ron? Ron? What's I don't know? Mom? Let's
(28:30):
I gotta think about whether or not it's smart. It's
a kids to tell you that, because it's it's an
very complicated situation, and the position that you're in is
incredibly infuriating and disempowering. And I know you, and I
(28:54):
know your temper and the depth of the rage around
the situation, and I think it would be probably pretty stupid.
I know, Mom, that Billy was the love of your life,
and I know that you loved him more than anything else.
(29:18):
I know that, But is there a world in which
you could imagine that he had anything to do with
it and might have provoked that situation at all? There
were no guns. I know that he told you that.
(29:40):
In terms of likelihood, the guy who owned guns his
whole life probably had a gun. He told me otherwise,
all right, he told me otherwise. So wouldn't you say
your interpretation is that accurate? Because you didn't know him.
(30:05):
He's dead. But I'm translating because I have a right.
He told me. We're at a stalemate. And I'm reminded
(30:27):
of a moment I had with Dr Harm, the clinical
psychologist from the top of the show. She has a
story that she's told herself for thirty seven years. That
involves this great injustice and the police doing something bad
and violating her family, and what we have to say
might take that apart. So do you have thoughts around
(30:48):
how to deal with that? I'm not sure I understand
your question. The reason why I'm not companying your question
is because all I see is you're doing it again,
doing one again. Your your entire existence is centered around
orbits around fixing your mom. She has her own journey
(31:12):
and she's bequeathed this. She's like set you on your
path to help heal both of you, And the most
important thing that you can do is to fix the
stuff inside of you and then stay with her moment
to moment, not in the past. So when she disappoints you,
enrages you, does something right, then can you like respond
(31:35):
authentically to that and help her like be present with you.
So you're saying, the most healing thing is to get
right with myself so that I can be with her
in the present moment. Yeah, I thrive on understanding and context,
(31:59):
and my forgiveness is directly tied to well, but why
did you do that? And if you can give me
a why that my brain can comprehend you're off the hook.
That's why I'm a little afraid of making the meaning
making part, because I'd rather that you forgive and connect
(32:19):
even if you can't make sense of it. Mhm. I
struggle with that. I struggle with that. It's a little
bit too much to ask of people. But it's like
real surrender. I was going to say that is the
definition of surrender. Just is what it is, and therefore
it has to be okay, right, It's like I love
(32:41):
you despite all this, even if I can't make sense
of it, I still love you, and I know that
you still love me in some way. So all this
past ship doesn't matter. It mattered for your journey, but
the end goal is radically authentic presence with another person.
(33:04):
Let her stop running, make her feel safe, see her.
That's the greatest gift that you've given her, actually to
see her. There is an ending here, but it's not
going to come from my mom. It has to come
(33:27):
from me. I don't always understand my mom, but I
love her and I know that she loves me too,
fiercely and deeply. I'm choosing to accept what we have
rather than wishing for something that doesn't exist. Sitting next
(33:48):
to her in the studio, I surrender will you. There
was a story about you guys going to Boston, right,
oh Boston, Oh good in the snow, in the snow,
(34:12):
That's what it was, right, it was. I was wearing.
It was very cheap, like double knit forest green sparkle
shell with his zip up the back and mini skirts
with the last sized waist but not bunchy and black
(34:34):
fuck me pumps with no stockings. His car had no
floor because he was working on it as we went
in the blizzard, so writing and the snows coming up
through the floor. Oh god, so so good. But here
(35:00):
his favorite songs too, like practice singing to like what
like see of love? Ship, Come with me my love
to the sea, the sea of La Dude, remember when
(35:28):
when met That's the day I knew you all my
bed I want to tell you, um shot. I imagine
(35:52):
her draped across the bench seat, her bleached blonde head
resting on Billy's thigh as he skids through the snow,
a cigarette dangling from his mouth. She reaches up and
caresses the collar bones of the man she will love forever.
As they sing together. Freezing air flies up from the
(36:17):
highway below. But they're unfazed, warmed by love good two
sie Ah Love. Do you remember when we met? That's
(36:48):
the day I knew you were my pet. I wanna
tell you how much I love you. Oh h m hmm, yeah, okay,
(37:20):
you're ready to stop, all right? I love you, Mom,
I love you my book. You can have some more
(37:44):
positive questions if you like, but I think that's a
great way to end the whole show. H Primetown is
(38:35):
Zach Stewart Pontier and Mark Smirling. The Ballad of Billy
Balls is hosted by me Io till it Right and
made in partnership with Cadence thirteen. You can find me
on the Internet. I'm Io loves you on everything, and
if you want to know more about my story, you
can pick up my memoir Darling Days. One of my
favorite parts of this experience has been getting voicemails from
(38:58):
you listeners to a more than ever. I want to
hear your thoughts and feelings. Call us and leave us
a voicemail. You can say whatever you want. We're at
five seven oh three, nine to nine zero. It would
mean the world to me. The show is produced by
(39:19):
me Kevin Sheppard and Ryan Swygert. Our senior producers Austin Mitchell,
editing by Zach Stewart Pontier and Mark Smirling. Fact checking
by Jennifer Blackman. This episode was mixed by Kenny Qca.
Music and sound design by Kenny Qca. Our title track
is Dark Allies by Light Asylum. Archival research by Brennan Reese.
(39:47):
Thanks to Daniella Aria, Rachel Lee Wright, Emily Wiedemann, Green
Card Pictures, Alessandro Sentauro, Bill Clegg, Cassie Evaschewsky, Ben Davis,
or In Rosenbaum, and the team at Cadence thirteen MM.
I want to take a minute to thank my partner
(40:09):
on this intense voyage, Austin. I could never have made
this thing without you, man, and I don't know what
I'm gonna do without you now. I guess we have
to make something else together. Zach, Mark, Kevin Ryan, and
the entire team. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
You've made this dream a beautiful reality. Thank you to
(40:35):
everyone who gave us their time and interviews. To Melinda
Hunt for her work to open Heart Island, to Miss
Calvert for understanding love, to Cora for being my chosen
family and to my dad for never shutting off and
always moving towards me even when it hurts. I want
to thank my fiance Rachel for listening to every episode
(40:58):
ninety times and holding me up when it was too hard.
I also want to thank every one of you who's
listened to this all the way through. If you're hearing
me say this right now, you've listened through the whole
of the credits, which means that you're a real one.
Please find me on the internet and say hello, stay
in touch. I'll miss you, and I'm also sorry about
(41:19):
all those two week breaks. And finally, of course, my mom,
without whom none of this would be possible. It hasn't
been simple, but I guess that's what makes it beautiful. Yeah,
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