June 28, 2023 • 61 mins
Multi-Million (Yes with an M) podcasting deal are ending across Spotify and other competitors. With Celebrities walking away, the boys take stock if these huge investments were sound…. While, the beginning of the end of Radio is starting with AM being kicked out of new cars. This and more on The Biztape!
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Sources:
Hollywood is Leaving Podcasts:
https://www.semafor.com/article/06/25/2023/hollywood-is-leaving-podcasting-to-podcasters
Cars Ditching Radio?:
https://www.billboard.com/pro/automakers-removing-radio-cars-timeline-future-audio-trend/
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Is the age of multimillion dollar podcast deals over.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
And our car companies killing radio. You're listening to the
biz Tape.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Welcome to the biz Tape. You're all things music, business
and media podcasts. I'm your host, Colin McKay with my
lovely host Coast to Coast Joseph Oslawski Joey. How are
we doing today?
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Done good? I'm doing good, recovering from a wild, wild week,
getting ready for a while wilder one.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
It's just a SoCal life, baby, yeah, you know, you know. Meanwhile,
I'm over here doing a run club and going to
the pool.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
That's I mean, that's the dream. Honestly, I want to
in a run club or club or.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
A solid run club. Baby, I run it with a
bunch of music industry people. Anyway, point is is that
it's pretty fun. I've been thinking about making shirts. I'm
getting closer every day. I really want to make them
because they're all music business people that are in this
run club with me and I joke I'm gonna make
up shirts and one of it's gonna say solid run club,
we run the music business. That was my idea for
(01:23):
the shirt. It's nice, but I god, dude, I gotta
stop because my budget for joke shirts is increasing in
my brain exponentially, and I'm i literally if I'm at
this point with them where I have so many jokes,
some of them are just so niche that if I
do one, I have to open the gambit. I have
(01:46):
to just do fifty shirts, and that's gonna be expensive,
especially since I'm gonna print like one just for just
for the bids. Anyway, Yeah, if you guys don't know
what kind of person I am already from listening to
the show that that's the kind of person I am,
I'm willing to put some money down on custom printing
for one joke to mess with one person in particular. Anyway,
(02:09):
here we are in the show, Baby Weird. Everyone's hot
in July for I'm sorry, June, I'm going to head.
I'm in the current whole of our business right now
where everything has gone out. Joe is you know, being
hot as hell, you know, working that camera and just
being a fine self everywhere across the America. So we
(02:31):
got some.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Crop top yesterday. I felt very hot. That was very
so cal of you, So taken aback.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
No, that's what I'm saying. It's very so cal like, yeah,
it's just like very you'd be like, it's like that
Nick Kroll joke from the Curl Show. We have one, two,
three drinks for dinner and a cigarette, then we have
some strudel and hot coffee for lunch.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
You know, it is pretty accurate.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Fair enough, but let's get into it. I don't know
who wants to start first, We'll start, all right, let's
hear it. Because I'm down, I wonder I brought this up. Actually,
I've really been talked before the show about this at all.
I had brought this up like half hazardly because my
audio friends had told me about this kind of issue
that was coming up in an episode. So you guys
(03:24):
have heard this a little bit before, warned. But Joe's
finally got the you know, big come upance coming up here.
This is actually happening for real, which is kind of crazy.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Oh yeah. So the big question are automakers ditching radio
or as it stands at this point, it's more when
are they going to be ditching radio? So, according to Billboard,
radio lobbyists are scrambling to incorporate legislature that would require
automakers to continue having am FM transmitters as more and
(03:58):
more companies are with the idea of removing them from
the perspective of radio, brands are worried about losing their
audience who rely heavily on radio, which, according to Nielsen data,
is forty two million Americans who would tune into five
thousand AM radio stations per week, which like sounds somewhat high.
(04:25):
But then when you start bringing it into like you
start comparing numbers to streaming, more than two billion global
YouTube and five hundred and fifteen million Spotify users return weekly,
which drastically engulfs the radio numbers essentially. So, I mean,
this is not this is not a new topic. I
(04:45):
mean we've covered this since we started the podcast of
like the Death of Radio and like how's it going
to look? And like wins it coming? Because it's it's
kind of like an inevitable process that I think a
lot of companies have been like kind of just kick
the can down the road and not really solving the
issue for these brands. Right. So, according to Gordon Burrell,
(05:08):
who is the CEO of Broadcast Analysis from Borrell Associates, quote,
We've had this signal for years that the removal of
terrestrial radio boxes in cars is inevitable. It might happen
ten years from now that not a single car has
an AMFN receiver in it. And if you want it,
(05:30):
you have you can get it on your phone, plug
it into the console. But it'll take time. So he's
saying like it's not going to happen like tomorrow, but
it is happening. It's going to happen. According to Pere Bouvard,
who is the chief insights officer for radio network Westwood One, quote,
(05:50):
they are going to have angry customers at some point.
The customers are going to get upset and maybe they'll
go find automakers that have want to install it, essentially,
which is like the most answer I've ever heard in
my life.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
From the nursing homes will rage.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Yeah, and man, uh we pissed off gen Z last week.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Folks are gonna opp.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Yeah, that's the That's the thing. It's like here like
the problem with with radio and this is the thing.
It's like, I've worked with so many amazing radio people.
The problem is they just pretend that the issue doesn't exist,
like they they think that consumers won it. I'm gonna
(06:43):
be honest, consumers from my perspective, those consumers who want
it are drastically reducing and you can even like look
at the numbers of local stations when it comes to
fundraising numbers, you can look at the numbers of people
tuning into AM radio at all. The biggest like example
(07:05):
they they they had in the article for people to
tuning into AM radio was was people driving tractors. So
like when they drive tractors, they have AM radio, which, like,
you know, it's like a consumer base that you can
one hundred percent cater to and like have a thing.
(07:26):
But like it's like one of those things. It's like yeah,
but like not everybody in the world is driving tractors,
you know, and we can't puniche audience.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Yeah. I was gonna say, you can't put a digital
satellite hookup and a tractor.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Yeah, well exactly you can. And like that's kind of
like the thing is, like the more the more technology
comes out the the the more use there is to
use new technology instead of old technology. But according to
Automaker's perspectives, AM radio in particular is obsolete for a
(08:02):
lot of technical reasons, mainly dealing with electromagnetic interference that
is especially prevalent in e vehicles, which is electronic vehicles,
which causes static and other noises to come through the
sound system due to the electric motors. So with the
combo of the electric motor and the waves or the transmitter, right,
(08:27):
it's catching some of the actual noise of the motor
and coming through the speakers, which is to consumers very
distracting and nobody wants to listen to that, you know,
especially if they're bumping CARDI B and which cardib on
an AM radio station would be amazing. But what's most
(08:48):
likely happening is they're bumping the very niche Christian radio
station that has like fifty listeners in their town, and
then it static rolls through.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Well, the thing is is that AM radio is like
in terms of okay, not to get super nerdy, your
Wi Fi at home mostly runs that two point four
gigahertz is the like frequency for that, right. Human hearing
is from zero to twenty thousand, Okay, whatever, But this
we're talking about like electromagnetic frequency, right, the wireless stuff
(09:23):
that people use on stage. I'm gonna go with worldwide
numbers is most like could be as low I get
I think technically could be as low like you're talking
about like four hundred to like seven hundred megaherts. So
again I went from gigahertz, which is an order of
magnitude higher than megahertz. AM radio is in the like
(09:46):
five hundred and forty to seven seventeen hundred kill a herts.
And the reason why that's important is because if you
go back to science class, is anything that you stick
electricity through that's causing a current, especially a battery, will
create electromagnetic interference in the air. And so guess what
(10:08):
your antenna in your car is supposed to do. Pick
up the AM radio, but guess what, it's also going
to pick up your battery in your car. And that's
why they really want to go after AM radio is
because it's so low that like a lot of these
batteries that's like, let's say, if you want to make
it musical, that's the tune they hum like they hum
(10:29):
around that frequency, and so that's why they want to
get rid of it because there's nothing they can do.
And then your radio is always like active, if that
makes sense. It's always there, so it's always going to
cause noise. So I understand from the automaker manufacturers why
they want to get rid of it because they're like, hey,
you know, the least of our concerns is this device
(10:49):
that we view that most consumers aren't even using. So
let's let's just gut it, because it's just going to
make people mad at us and make us have to
develop battery technology around it.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Yeah. So, I mean it is like it's at this
crossroads situation now where like the technology itself is kind
of clashing with one another and making the user experience worse.
So Tesla began removing AM radios in twenty eighteen, while
Volkswagen recently did the same thing to its ID point
(11:24):
four SUVs, which is a crazy fucking thing.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Yeah, what is that?
Speaker 2 (11:30):
I don't know. I kind of want to google it.
Let's see ID point for suv Volkswagen. It's it looks
like every car you've ever seen, a mom car like
or like it looks like it literally looks like just
a family car.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
To be honest, it looks like everything. Sorry.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Jessica Arnston, who is a Volkswagon Product communications senior specialist,
stated in the article that quote, the user experience is
not going to be very good. Most AM radio content
is also streamed over the Internet and available on HD radio,
which is FM radio or XM, so there are alternative
(12:17):
methods to get to that information. Another perspective that radio
lobbyists hold is that AM especially is important due to
the access of safety information during emergencies, since it doesn't
need as much power in order to broadcast if there
were power outages church as you know, like tornado updates
(12:39):
in Nashville is a good example, right of like if
the whole power grid fails, then you can still most
likely get updates through radio. However, it's what they kind
of leave out is like if your radio doesn't turn on,
plugged into a wall or you know, like most people
(13:01):
are not gonna be driving on the street during an
emergency in most cases. I mean, I guess it just
depends on the emergency, right, But I think.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
The idea, right is like maybe if the only thing
that I could say, because I get what you're getting at,
is that maybe, like you're in a scenario, you're in
the car, it is just like pouring down rain, you
have to focus on driving, and like there's no way
you could search something on your phone, like because you
have to focus on driving, maybe you could just hit
the radio button. AM scan and then listen to whatever
(13:31):
you know, tornado tone comes up kind of thing that's
like what the only real one I can think of?
Right for like a pro being like, oh, we could
easily use this and not our phones.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Yeah. I actually do feel like in most usages though,
the phone is still easier to access information quicker and
more accurately than AM because a lot of the times
AM emergency broadcasts are very vague. They don't have much
(14:04):
more depth to it, whereas like you know, like they're
not saying exactly a lot of the times, like where
the tornado is there, there's usually like a delayed Well.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Usually it's just like you should take cover there's a tornado.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's just telling people, yeah, to cover,
which to.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Be honest, I don't want anybody to like stormcatchers it
out there and be like on the phone, be like
that tornado is like three blocks away, Like I don't have.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Well, I mean that's true, but it is. We have
the technology now, even with whether technology, we have the
technology to track these storm movements more accurately and you
can find it on your phone. And honestly, most people
who see the warnings appear through their phone now because
of the you know, yeah, the auto alerts and the yeah.
(14:52):
So it's kind we don't have to worry about it anyway.
I think, you know, the more safety the better. Sorry
my no, I like the watchings.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
I don't care.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
But the thing about what I think is like, the
more safety the better. I mean, it's great if like
radio broadcasts that stuff. But I also think like there
are ways in which you can get the same information faster, quicker,
more accurately. So I don't think AM is necessarily I
(15:29):
don't think if AM goes away, safety goes away, you
know what I mean? Like, I think that there's still.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
For most people, you know, it will not affect them.
Do I think there is a population that is still
on AM radio? Absolutely? It almost feels you know what.
It honestly reminds me a lot of If you're around
our age, like your twenty mid twenties or even early twenties,
you probably do remember this as a kid when TV
(15:59):
went from analogue to digital. Do you remember this, Joe?
What I'm talking about For people that are uninitiated, if
you don't know, maybe you're younger listening all you know,
you could get analog TV signal or you could get
digital TV signal, which at the time you know, was
cable right, and you had to have the cable box
to do it, and some people didn't do it. They
(16:20):
just had analog. They had antennas on their TVs. And
so one day, I think it must have been like
two thousand and seven, two thousand and eight, they went, hey,
we are deciding to get rid of the analog band.
The FCC has decided to get rid of it. We're
gonna stop doing it. And there was kind of this
similar vibe where.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
People went, yeah, people are freaking out.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Yeah. People were like, hey, I don't want to have
to pay to watch TV, even if my signal is
way shittier. You know, people watch the news on TV
right and they don't can't afford cable, you know what
I mean, Like they just watch it with their antennas
and all that kind of stuff. And to me, that
had a way more solid argument than this does, just
because of the day age that it was. But it
(17:01):
does very much remind me of that time. And it's
honestly kind of funny because I forgot about it until
just we were talking about. This argument is that it
is sadly just you know, it's sad to see you
go and has been a you know, monumental force in
the formation of music in general and also just general
broadcasting and safety. But it makes sense to kind of
(17:24):
sunset this technology. You know, there's a reason I don't
have a cassette player in my car anymore, right, Like
there's a reason that.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
We well, and that's that's the importance behind automakers right now,
right is, so automakers are at this point now where
the US has made a pledge right to have like
all automakers making electric vehicles right in the next like
what twenty thirty years or whatever. Yeah, and like all
(17:55):
all of them are switching over to that. And I
would argue the sooner they do that, the more money
they're going to get. So it might be faster than
slower in a lot of cases, because they think automakers
who are slow to the adoption of it are going
to miss out on a lot of fast growing money
(18:16):
that people want. Like consumers want this for the most
part because it's cheaper on them. They don't have to
pay gas. They pay to fill up at a station
that is much much cheaper than filling up at a
gas station. That could change, you know, once prizes rise,
(18:37):
and like depending on how they get that energy to
that spot, you gain all.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
The advantages in an electric car, and I lose am radio,
you know, like, oh my, exactly right.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
And that's another thing. It's like like all of these
cars have a mass amount of technology installed, and like
you even said on a previous episode, callin that like
the highest the most important thing that consumers are looking
into when it comes to cars is the technology. That's
all they care about. They don't care about what the
(19:07):
car looks like. They care about how smooth is the
drive and does it have the ability to have Apple
car play right?
Speaker 1 (19:15):
And literally is literally like you're not.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Even joking, it is the case. I mean currently data
surprisingly values streaming and radio highly with each other, with
users purchasing cars with streaming in a slight lead. However,
like I said, I think personally, the more and more
young people who start purchasing cars, those percentages of radio
(19:40):
lovers are going to drastically decrease.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Radio Lovers is the name of my newest band. Anyway.
The point is is the rate, Like, like I do
think like there will be problems with this just because
I mean, am I gonna lie and say that there
is no one on earth using AM radio. I'm sure
there is there people that are you know, stuck in
that way. They're never gonna leave their you know, communities
(20:05):
that still use AM radio. Am radio is also the
place that most like enthusiasts would you know, go on, right,
Like if you were like, oh, I'm gonna make a
little radio station in my backyard, it's most of the
time AM radio, right, So we are kind of losing that,
and that's sad, you know what I mean. Like it
is kind of fun when you've had AM radio and
(20:25):
go through a little town and you hear this like
weird little station that you could tell like some guy
in his basement's just running, and you know, you go
out of town and that's over, and it's like, yeah,
you gotta lose that experience. Now. I am interested, obviously,
and I think what's interesting about this is not to
play kind of you know, the domino effect of it all.
(20:46):
But I guarantee you, with all of this hubbabloo about
AM radio and you know, the ease of it seemingly
so far to go away and have like a you know,
silent good night radio stations are considering what their options
are because it's not like FM is not out of
(21:07):
the question at some point, right because as people had said,
I think you had you had a really good quote
in here. They can get it somewhere else. So it's
not like these car manufacturers are turning off the lights
right like they are saying, oh, no, you can use
your phone and find it. But the thing with I
don't know about you, Joe, I was going to ask
you this, how did you come about listening to radio
(21:29):
the last time you listened to it? Like, think of
the last time you listened.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
To k XP on YouTube?
Speaker 1 (21:35):
No, no, no. What I'm saying is like a terrestrial radio signal.
When was the last time you heard one?
Speaker 2 (21:41):
When I was when I was working in radio.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Okay, so here's when I had heard it when I
hit radio accidentally on my car. Oh yeah, And to
be honest, I know, but like to be honest, yeah,
it seems obvious. But I got to think of myself,
and I'm sure other people got to think about this too.
How many times have you accidentally been on the radio
portion of your car and you're like, actually, the same pad,
(22:07):
I will put it on for a minute. I don't
know what song this is, right or something like that.
That's happened to me a couple of times.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
And to be.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Honest, that's put people in radio stations around Nashville on
my radar that I didn't think about, and I go, oh, really,
I didn't know this radio station exists. That's cool, And
they're gonna lose that if they cut out FM radio eventually.
And it's not like if they take away AM. It's
just the beginning of the dominoes, you know.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
M hm. Well, and that's the thing. It's like the
branding behind a lot of these stations too. It's it's well,
first off, it's muddy, right, you're it's there's a there's
a big difference between a for profit radio station and
a nonprofit radio station, and there's a lot of things
that either or can do or can't do. But I
(22:53):
do feel like when it comes to models of stations
that have done it really well, KXB is very high
on the list because they are more of a media
company than they are a radio station. And I think
that that is kind of how you have to shift
(23:15):
to these things. I think Lightning one hundred in Nashville
did a good job. I think they're struggling right now
when it comes to life on the Green, But I
think that they have the ability to be a promoter
and a very sizable promoter in Nashville because they have
the connections, they have, the people, they have, the the
(23:38):
audience who wants it. And then I think, like web
radio has existed since the web existed, you know, And
that's kind of another thing is like radio is still
going to be around, Like you know, we even have
Spotify radio rights.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
I mean, we talked about it, and you talked about
it too, did Digital radio is huge. People like the
idea of curation and like.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Much as much as people hate uh and should on
podcasts as we've oh don't worry, that's the next time. Yeah.
The thing is people still listen to them, Like there
is still an audience out there for them. There's still
money to be had. It's is it the most money, No,
But you don't need the most money to have a
(24:26):
lucrative business, right, So it's it's like that's kind of
where I think. I think some young people, including myself,
I'm guilty of this sometimes, I you know, can kind
of just be like radio, whatever. But ultimately it's still
(24:47):
I think a medium that could have a resurfacing effect
in the future. Like I think I can actually think that,
like if it was done well and done right, it
could be thing in just a different medium.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Yeah. Absolutely, the concept isn't bad. It's the it's literally
the medium, like you're saying. And so I think at
the end of the day, where I see this mostly,
you know, is if they get rid of AM radio,
they're really opening up the chopping block for changing what
is on the dashboard, Like the biggest deal with changing
(25:24):
the dashboard. Yeah, right, but like literally, like the last
ten or twenty years, the biggest change to the dashboard
has been putting the big ass screen in the middle, right,
like just a giant screen. And now they're really going, well,
you know, for years it was like, oh, you have
the radio. Cool. Then you have a clock. Then you
(25:44):
have like an options menu that shows you things about
your car. Then you have like the ability to uh
listen to digital radio. Then you have like your phone
can go into it now and you can play music
through your phone. Then it's like your phone can control
the whole thing. So it's like we've been adding stuff
and we it's starting. Like you know, people talk about
this on the tech side all the time, where they go, oh,
(26:04):
your UI's getting clunky or whatever. The car UI is
starting to get clunky, and the first things that are
going to get cut are radio. And so what I
think about when I look at this is that you know,
am radio leaving. You know, I'm sorry for these forty
two million Americans who clearly love this thing, but I
think the time the sunset on it. But I think
(26:25):
this is definitely a wake up call for many radio
stations that have not pivoted at all that thought they
were you know, oh well, we always have it in
the cars, you know what I mean, We always have
it in the cars, and we could always have that
factor of like what I was saying, where you could
just stumble across the radio station. The car manufacturers, I think,
are going to slowly take that away.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
And I think I even think though currently that's such
a poor business model of just like people stumbling across it.
Oh absolutely, because it's it's like you're you're you're gambling
whether or not the persons even gonna like your curation.
And when you are competing with self curation and AI curation.
(27:09):
It's like a no brainer that it's not going to
compete with the rest of that. Well, the thing just
the mainstre the main.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Purpose that radio has is that in the you know,
car driving America that we live in, the main benefit
radio has compared to other things is that it's built
into the car and it's free. And yeah, that's the
main thing. And so they lose that. Then it's like
it feels like I'm in the you know, already the
final chapter of radio. But it feels like if people
(27:38):
were holding out, like you're saying and going, oh no,
we're not adapting our business. We're not trying to make radio.
And one thing we said a thousand times on this
show is that the smartest businesses in radio so far
have been making themselves into a brand. They're not a
radio station, They're a brand. And the thing that I'm
thinking is that like it's too late, you know what
I mean. Like it's almost like if you were a
(28:00):
radio station, you haven't been doing this and now they're
striking AM down. It's too eight, you know what it's.
I feel like, instead of being like I think some
people in radio are seeing this is like if we
were on the side of Mount Vesuvius being like, guys,
you know, the volcano's coming eventually, and I'm seeing it
as the volcano's erupting now, like, so you got a
(28:21):
duck and I hope you're in a good enough place
to get away from the volcano. Like That's what it
feels like to me. But you know, other people are like,
we got a couple of years, it's fine that mountain
has that much smoke, and so like I that's honestly
the most insane thing to me is that I have
met a lot of people no no, no radio be around,
(28:41):
rido be around, and I go, I guarantee you. One
of the first things car manufacturers will take away from
their clunky screen is that big radio logo that nobody
hits half the time.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Yep, there is. I've I've been scared of my radio
button before, or I'm like, oh, what's happening?
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Yeah, And then imagine and like, because it's already deep
in the settings, imagine you do that with a m right,
and then the electric vehicle just causes like like that
that's what the car manufacturers are trying to annoy.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Mm hmmm. Well, and then I think I think to
the where where it comes to FM, and XM XIM
is able to migrate to online a lot better because
it's already kind of an online service, whereas AM FM
(29:34):
are yeah yeah, they're in there in the car, right,
it's like transmitted uh to the car or just using
a different transmitter essentially. But I I do think FM
has like the ability to not make it as well,
because I just think that most people do not, and
(29:57):
not that most people do not, because I think there's
still a lot of people that do. But I think
I think less and less people are tuning in to
local based media, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Well, I don't know. I wouldn't go that far, but
I would say that I think that it's more of
the ease of use is bad. There's a lot of
different options now, it's not the only thing in your
car that can entertain you, and it definitely has suffered
from not being able to capture the youth. Now I wonder,
(30:30):
you know, my cynical brain goes, well, maybe somebody will
get really stupid and start doing like the vinyl thing
and just be like, you know, it sounds better on FM.
It just it sounds so much better. The compassion and
expansion sounds so much better. Like that's the way it
was intended. You know. Actually, they just released a new
unreally steely Dan song that they found, and I guarantee
(30:52):
you there's some steely dance.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
I wonder what this.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Sound like on AM. Let's put it on AM real quick.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
There's definitely a fan, right dude.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
I yeah, just Godspeed Radio the Vesuvius Mountain. It's just
already all.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
Right, Colin, what'll we got next?
Speaker 1 (31:10):
All right, let's move on to a question I asked
on our Instagram, So you gotta bear with me on
this one if you are unfamiliar with this. On Instagram
over the Biz Tape every Monday, I asked a question
that's generally pretty argumentative, but this one was super argumentative,
and I said, is the era of celebrity podcasts over? Now?
(31:34):
However you feel about that question, let me just take
you on a ride back in time and maybe I
can kind of change your answer and maybe just provide
perspective of maybe why I asked the question because to
be to be bought with y'all. As some of you
guys know, I like to ask questions that you can
kind of argue both sides anyway, So let's go all
(31:54):
the way back three years from now Wolf in twenty twenty,
where everybody was basically, you know, if you if you
weren't having to deal with the impacts of COVID right away,
you were forced into these tiny little rooms and you
felt like you were away from human connection entirely, except
there was one bastion of hope for many people, which
(32:17):
was podcasts. And Joe and I started this podcast around
twenty and twenty, and I remember we talked about it
on the show. We talked about all these podcasts are
blowing up and people didn't know why, Like the DSPs
and Spotify had no idea exactly why. Everybody had theories
they were like, oh, well, people aren't in the car,
so they don't listen to music and the radio as much,
(32:38):
and they want human connection and all that. So nobody
knew why. So these DSPs such as Spotify just shaw
the causal. They said, Hey, this pandemic things caused on
everybody to get into podcast And generally podcasts are kind
of like how a TV show or a movie is
where you kind of develop a you know, thing for them,
so a fandom, if you will. Let's get some celebrities
(33:01):
on these podcasts, right, And so they just started hand
over fists buying like celebrity podcasts. Right. Spotify and Apple
did it too, and Amazon did it too. And one
of the ones I'm about to talk about right now,
which was highly sought after, is Mega Marcle and Prince Harry.
This was like a huge deal, I think Joe you
(33:21):
remember us talking about this, right?
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Oh yeah, yeah, they got like an insane million dollars.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Oh you want to know what it is? They got
twenty million dollars for a podcast, a podcast deal, like
whatever you think about Joe Rogan's you know what was
a foreigner million a deal? Okay, whatever, Like at least
Joe Rogan.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
I think that was.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Like, at least Joe Rogan had been doing podcasts. Right.
They just gave two famous people twenty million dollars to
be on to stick a microphone in their face, right,
And they were like, whatever it is, we don't care.
We just know that everybody's interested in you guys because you're,
you know, having the most drama ever with the crown
(34:02):
and everything. So we're gonna give you twenty million dollars.
And people were hype because they kept doing all this,
and then even the Rogan thing, people were hype. The
stock started going so high up with Spotify and they
did are you ready for this again? Twenty million dollars.
They did twelve episodes, which means they were making one
(34:24):
point six million an episode for this. Right, that's crazy.
Now let's cut. Now we're at the end. Spotify has
been in some rough streaks since basically the start of
the whole, like Spotify protest stuff, but that wasn't really
the cause of it, but that was like a good
(34:45):
place to put it. Spotify has been having a rough
sell because all of these companies that have been seen
as gross stocks for the last twenty years, people are
starting to go, hey, I kind of need my money,
and Spotify goes, I don't have it. I've been spending
so much money everywhere else, and so now they're cutting stuff.
So they recently, as Joe and I talked about on
(35:06):
their show, they cut two percent of their employees' careers
at the company. So two percent of their company was gone.
And guess who's also getting off that train. The Duke
and Duchess of Sussex. They're ending their show and like
they're just one example but there's a couple of different
celebrities now in terms of podcasting. Joe and I know
(35:27):
a little bit about this. A lot of these deals
are multi year, so it would make sense right like
that around now three years or so, now people are
getting off the train. Notably also, the Obamas are leaving
their exclusive podcasts on Spotify and they're moving over to
a competitor on Audible. The point being is in twenty twenty,
we saw a lot of these deals come to power
(35:48):
with like huge, big sums of money, and like time
has come up for a lot of these contracts, so
it's time to see what like kind of happened, Like
did the celebrities really take off in the do they whatever?
You know, and all that kind of stuff, like was
it worth the investment because a lot of them are
starting to leave now, right and it appears like basically
(36:09):
from our research, I don't think it did, like I
do not think it did. And the reason why I
don't think it did is because of Spotify and a
lot of these companies are not re upping these contracts,
like they're not going guys, Megan, you know, everybody, we're
doing so good on the show. We want to up
it for thirty men. No, they're not doing that. All
(36:30):
of these companies are in not good straights. They're not
you know, coming up green with cash from these huge investments.
They basically were in a argument with all the other DSPs, Apple, Spotify, Amazon,
saying who can spend the most money, And so we
all seem like we're doing the best, and then we
run the other person dry, and then we'll just live
(36:52):
enough long enough, you know, to run the other people dry,
which has been the model of all Silicon Valley for
a very long time. But the point is is, like
we don't see all these companies doing anything like Spotify
only has recently announced one non exclusive Remember their whole
thing like we were talking about with Rogan here or
you know, Mega Markle and all those people. They kept
(37:14):
doing these exclusive podcast deals which aka translates to more money.
They only announced recently that they're doing like out of
their big podcasts, they're adding they're doing a non exclusive
podcast with Trevor Trevor Noah. And that's it. Like they're
not going like we're buying everything, right, And so I
thought it was interesting because I feel like we're kind
(37:34):
of er ending this kind of segment that Joe and
I almost started, you know, since Joe and I were
innately so famous and uh uh but no, uh but literally,
like Joe and I started around the same time. So
I've been following this with the show, and I just went,
I don't know how they're gonna do this. And there's
been a lot of like blame around about what's going on,
(37:55):
and Joe, I'd love to hear your thoughts about this,
but I'm let'st give you this kind of quote like
in some summar reason here is that basically some blame that, like,
you know, if you're a celebrity, it doesn't make you
a great podcasting host, which makes sense. And then a
lot of them is a lot of them don't have
drive to do this, right, Like they don't have really
(38:15):
big like if I'm doing a make a movie every
couple of weeks, I'm not gonna have a big drive
to crank out like forty podcast episodes, right.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
And apparently Megan and Harry had some issues with that
because they wanted to like no, it was the Obamas
had issues with that with Spotify because Spotify wanted him
to do more episodes, and apparently the Obamas were like, ah,
that's kind of a kind of a hard point for us.
But like to get on, really, I'm gonna read you
this quote and it's pretty visceral. It says quote turns
(38:45):
out Mega Markele was not a great audio talent or
necessarily any kind of talent. Who said this United Talent
Agency CEO Jeremy.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
Zimmer, Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
And he said this, and I love They add this,
they said he said this over coffee at Lame Majestic
during the Cans Lions Advertising Festival, which I'm like, that's
not gonna win you any pros. And then he goes
quote he adds and you know, just because you're famous
doesn't make you great at something, which, to be honest,
(39:19):
kind of fits right, Like.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Yeah, I mean not every celebrity needs to do every
media and you know what I mean, Like I think
there's like a huge I don't know. I talk about
this all the time with my partner who's like in
management artist management, and like they have like the issue
(39:41):
as well of like we just keep asking these artists
to like sacrifice their lives essentially and like put put
their whole life on a screen and showcase it to everybody,
and they have to be doing everything. They have to
be podcasting, they have to be appearing on TV s,
they have to be playing on TV shows. They have
(40:02):
to be, you know, making tiktoks all day. They have
to also be making music and make sure that like
their release schedule goes well and that they get us
at some time and blah blah blah blah blah, and
like that's the thing. It's like, what, at what point
is it too much? And at what point what is
working and what isn't working when it comes to like
(40:24):
celebrity careers.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
I just think it's really interesting because you're bringing up
a great point. Is that a lot of these celebrities,
because they want to have a diversity of income, right,
they don't want to just be like, well if I
do bad as an actor, well I need to have
other money. Maybe if I make some songs. I mean,
like the one that comes to mind for some reason
is Ja Love. Like Jayla is a great musician and
(40:48):
also a great actor, so it makes sense you want
to be the best of both worlds. But that doesn't
happen with everybody. But it's almost like a necessity, you
know what I mean. It's almost like a requirement to
start is that you got to try everything. And it's
just weird because if you go like kind of down
a lower level, right, like you're not gonna go you
wouldn't go to a classical violinist and go, by the way,
(41:10):
do you do like poetry like you know, you know
like that, No, you wouldn't do that, right, Like you
wouldn't be like because you should. You should just do
like high level poetry at the same time that's really respected.
Like it's it's kind of like that where I think
that people forget that sometimes a lot of these celebrities
(41:30):
because they're so coveted. The thing that's selling them is
just them. It's not their talent, you know, not not
not to degrade anything, to be honest. I haven't listened
to the podcast with the with the Duke and the Duchess,
but like, you know, it's like one of those things
where I bet you know, I remember Mega Markle from
Suits as we all do, right, but like I remember
(41:53):
on that show, I was like, she wasn't that bad,
like and then she married, you know, the one of
the princes, and I was like, oh, good for her,
But I I wasn't like immediately like I think she
should write like a book and a do a speaking
like this a lot of different skill I wouldn't be like,
also she should do competitive soccer, Like no, like it's
just there's no reason for all that. But then you
(42:15):
realize that like a lot of these celebrities are just
doing it and only selling it because of their name,
which is kind of the game at the end of
the day. But like, also it's kind of hilarious when
you start putting a magnifying glass on it, and also
kind of hilarious when you think about it in terms
of maybe a podcast, which doesn't have most of the
(42:38):
time an innate by value right at the start, at
least with a book, right like hey, Like if they
came up to me and they were like, Colin, we
really love you, then I'd be like, thank you, You're
so nice. But then I'd be like, Colin, we really
love you about this, but like, we think you should
write a book. At least, like with a book, you
could be like I can have a ghost writer if
(42:59):
I really wanted to write. Or at the end of
the day, if they buy my book and hate it,
they bought the book, they you know, and I guess
they could return the book, but that's a lot of
work with podcasts, right, It's like immediately like okay, spend
twenty million dollars cool, and then podcasts and then equal
profit question mark, you know, like that's kind of what
(43:22):
it's like. It's like not straightforward at least if you know.
It was saying, hell, Mega Markle's in the next MCU
movie and people were like, oh, sick, let's go see
it because I don't know, I'm a big fan of
Mega Markle. That's one thing they bought the ticket. But
with podcasting and stuff like that, it's innately a you know,
medium that's mostly free. So it's like, what do you
(43:43):
how are you going to make your money back with this?
I don't know what do you think of that? Joe, Like,
I don't do you think you think Spotify got over
zealous in the end, like or do we think like
at that moment in time, try not to be captain obvious?
It was maybe a smart move to double down.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
I think like they saw the projections of podcasts. I mean,
podcasts at that point were projected to be like making
tons of money, so it wasn't like out of the
ordinary that they did that right, they like jumped into
these deals headfirst. I also think, you know Spotify, at
(44:18):
the time their numbers were going up, they were very
much speaking to investors. And I think this is even
previous to them being a public traded company, of them
being like, okay, like this is still an investment period
before we jump into this public space.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
And.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
It kind of backfired on them, honestly, Like I think that,
to be honest, there were some egregious, egregious deals made.
Like I don't care how famous you are, the Joe
Rogan one is insane. There's there's no way his show
(45:03):
was that impressive or that captivating or getting that many
people to justify four hundred million dollars and like.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
Okay, and we know we like obviously if you're out
there and you're like I really love Joe Rogan, we
know Colin and you know Joe are not the best
fans of Joe Rogan. Just think of the money, like
just straight up yeah, but like do they get from
one hundred million?
Speaker 2 (45:26):
It's like yeah, He's like they're treating Joe Rogan as
this as this monolith, which like he's huge, right, He's
a huge podcaster, but they're treating him like a media company.
But literally they're investing into a whole media company, and
like that's not at all what he is. He is
a personality that talks in a microphone.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
And that and that's the thing.
Speaker 2 (45:50):
Attracks about a million per episode, right, a million viewers
per episode, But like when you really break down and
do the math, it's like it's not that great of
an investment, Like they're losing money on that.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Well, it's just even that or breaking even maybe four
hundred million dollars. You could argue, maybe, oh, Joe Rogan,
because of even how controversial is you could say that
it's four hundred million dollars in marketing.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
But yeah, exactly, I was. I was about to say,
like you could argue that, like, oh, well, most of
this is marketing cost and like that's fair, I guess,
but it's also not marketing costs at the same time,
and it's not great when it's like, oh, we just
signed this deal with Joe Rogan and then he's like, oh,
(46:34):
I have all the control in this deal. I get
to bring whoever I want to bring onto this podcast
and tarnish the Spotify brand, right, because that was like
the big thing, and like.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
True, and that's true with any of the celebrities, right,
is like at the same time that you could have
such and such, you know, bring on you know, we
could bring on anybody of this show, even if they
were really terrible, right, But like we're not the biggest people,
like huge market facing people, but like celebrities could do
that and they have a lot of uh, you know,
(47:05):
leeway to get picked up. And you could get a
situation where, let's say, if they brought on somebody terrible
when you're a bigger person, it's just like, oh good,
no one listened to the show. Everyone says we're terrible
for having the show. And on top of that, like
we are losing money on this deal because we paid
twenty million dollars up front for you. So like that
(47:26):
that's where the danger lies too. And like on top
of that and with going to even the bigger celebrity stuff,
I think we could definitely hit on this, Like, you know,
moving away from Joe rid because at least Joe Rogan's
been talking to people for like years all that stuff.
Whatever you think of the guy, right, like he has
experienced he has developed, right, but like the idea of
(47:47):
taking somebody and like I know when we first started,
we sucked, you know what I mean, Like why would
they be good at this? Right? It's the same reason
about like if I started playing the clarinet. I've never
played the clarinet. I have some vague music experience, so
I guess that would translate right in the same way
as being like, you know, a really nice actor and
all that kind of stuff, where it's like, yeah, they
(48:08):
could talk and speak and some of them are very
good at improv. That makes sense, right, But that doesn't
immediately make you good at podcasting and make you a
good podcaster, right, So like that's kind of the thing.
And at the end of the day, like I think,
whatever you say, like if I get really capitalistic, well
it doesn't matter, you know, Like we get this much
marketing out of it because this famous person signed on.
(48:30):
Their episodes could be terrible, and we can still make
money because people check it out or check out Spotify
or whatever. Okay, cool, while that right, like let's just
say terrible, like mindset that way. I just think the
problem is is that if you do not have the
drive to do stuff like this, then you're just gonna
(48:50):
make bad content and you're just gonna create more bad
situations for yourself. Like if you do not have the
drive to do this, then in the same way that
like you can tell a performer on stage that doesn't
want to be there, you're gonna cause problems. You can
tell a bad performance on screen, you're just gonna do
(49:10):
more damage to yourself as like a celebrity, and also
to like Spotify and then because then it's like, oh,
we can't trust anything Spotify just outright by is the
curation's bad? Right? Why would I? It's the same reason
like when you have like a streaming service that has
like a bunch of bad shows together and you're just like,
I don't want to stream that. They probably have other
bad shows, right, Like why would I try anything on there?
(49:33):
Their shows are bad even though you're like taking it
from maybe like two or three shows, right, And I'm
sure there's something on Spotify you would like, but you
might be like, I'm not gonna go pay the fifteen
extra dollars to switch to Spotify, you know from my
Apple music that's maybe covered by my phone, Like that's
that's kind of like my whole thing with it too.
Is just like it feels like a lot of lose,
lose lose, And it felt like at the time we
(49:55):
were saying to too just super optimistic talk and be
like kick the ball down the hill, you know what
I mean, Let's deal with this later and today is later,
you know, And I don't know, man, Like, It's like
one of those things where at some point I feel
for some people because I guarantee you some of these
(50:15):
smaller deals it felt more realistic, right, be like, Hey,
you guys, maybe you guys had like a good YouTube following,
and you guys had a pretty popular podcast. We'd like
to bring you on Spotify for four under thousand dollars. Okay, yeah,
why not, you know what I mean, Like something like that.
But like, the the level of magnitude between some of
(50:36):
these deals is insane. Like you're saying, I think, you know,
Joe Rogan is the number one podcast in the world,
but I don't think there is a podcast worth four
inner million dollars. I just do not think it, you
know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
If it's the top of the world, you know, it's
like it's such a man it was even like a
gamble when they did it, you know, because it because
Spotify is just not making a return right now, and
now it's a major major investment on the table. And
(51:10):
then also pay to have the Obamas and Megan, Marcle
Harry and all of these other celebrities.
Speaker 1 (51:18):
And that's the craziest thing. It's not just one.
Speaker 2 (51:21):
It's like yeah, it's it's like, let's just get there.
Were literally like, let's poach all of the celebrities that
are a controversial, be talkative, right that like would make
sense in the news medium space. And they did that
and it didn't work out. So now it's like, I
(51:43):
don't know. I mean, podcasting in general is just in
a weird spot right, Like it's it's everybody's working from
home now since the pandemic, there's not really a necessity
to churn on a podcast unless you're in the car.
A lot of podcasts are short now. They're like fifteen
twenty minutes is like more of the highest rated podcasts.
(52:03):
And then the podcasts that are an hour plus or
like usually online like on YouTube, in like a format
of like this is a influencer, I'm going to sit
here and watch this right as opposed to listen to it.
Because now podcasting is visual and auto auto audio as well.
Speaker 1 (52:22):
It is a car, yes, keep going.
Speaker 2 (52:24):
It's automatic transmission. But yeah, I don't know. It's like
it's such a weird situation. I voted on that poll, Colin,
I voted no. I think that celebrity podcasts are a thing.
(52:44):
I think that they will continue to be a thing.
I just think that we're in a bit of a
lull moment. I think there was like a big rush
to it, and it'll come back. Like, I think there's
going to be celebrities who do it, just like there's
celebrities who stream, right, Yeah, like hop on it. But
(53:06):
I don't think necessarily I agree, Like, I don't think
it's necessarily going to be like mega celebrities, right, Like
I don't see Beyonce getting on Spotify.
Speaker 1 (53:20):
What's just crazy to me is like another you know,
because I am the historical guy. It just reminds me
of like when artists started doing books, right and being like,
I'm going to write a book and you're like, that's
not the same as writing a song, right, It's innately not.
But the one thing that and a lot of people
finding out is that you don't have to write it
somebody else can if you have to, Yeah, exactly. And
(53:43):
so that's what I'm saying is like the podcast situation
is kind of like a lose lose because especially now,
there's also like a lot of expectation on quality and
like what you're doing. There's so much podcasting, right, I
think a lot of people think, oh, you can just
get anybody in front of microphone and talk and be like, no,
it's not like that anymore. It was maybe in like
two thousand and three, you know. But like the thing
(54:06):
is is that the worst part is you can't even
fake yourself unless ooh, unless we get like Ai Beyonce
to answer everything, which honestly, honestly, I whoever does that first,
I'd be like, that's kind of a power play. I'm
not gonna lie, like if you were like if you
were like, yeah, that wasn't me, that was Ai talking.
(54:30):
All right, Joe, what do we got? What do we got?
This week? I've been listening to a crap ton of music.
Speaker 2 (54:38):
Actually, yeah, I've been. I've been in a music rout
for like weeks. Now.
Speaker 1 (54:42):
All right, well I give you disappointing. Yeah, first thing is, uh,
I did mention that Steely Dan song. So This guy
who's the engineer of Steely Dan for many years is
Roger Nichols and his daughters. This is how nerdy I am.
I follow the Roger Nichols Facebook page because I'm that
(55:03):
big of a nerd, and his daughters run the page,
and he had like all this crazy stuff and it's
just mostly because the guy was huge in technology for recording,
so it's like my nerd brain goes crazy. But anyway,
they found out that Roger Nichols there was. Steely Dan
recorded an album in nineteen eighty called Gout Show and
(55:23):
it was very notable as being one of the most
one of the first like distinctly digital records right and
like digital recording, and so they used these crazy like
dat machines from three M They were terrible. The point
is is they did like a lot of work on this,
like technologically, and Steely Dan, if you don't know, is
(55:44):
like perfectionists when it comes to being in the studio.
And they had this song that was called Second Arrangement
and they apparently in Gaucho it was bad because I
believe that I believe there was like a lot of
drug problems at that point, and like the band was
just about to break up, basically, and it was their
last album, and basically they kept doing all these different
(56:06):
songs and they were such a perfectionists. They would just
ditch the whole song, like they would just go, Hey,
this song that's like ninety five percent done, screw it,
it's gone now. And obviously what's funny. And Joe Joe
and I have actually seen this because we've worked with
people that we've just been like, God, these people are
so good at like what they do musically, it's insane.
(56:29):
And so when they think they mess up, they're not
messing up. Like it just sounds so good you can't
even notice what they think they messed up at. And
so Roger Nichols apparently did not get the memo on
this and took the demo of it and like or
took the tracks of it and mixed it, and then
he made a copy of the mix and then they said, hey,
we're not gonna do it, and he was like, oh okay,
(56:52):
and then he just forgot about it and he just
put it in a literal like drawer in his house
and then he passed away and his two daughters found it,
and it's a lost Steely Dan recording. It's called Second Arrangement.
It's on YouTube. It's really weird. It's like if you
(57:13):
know stuff about Seely Dan, it's like it definitely feels
lost in that entire record, Like you're like, I could
see where this could go completely and then like you
listen to it and it's just this high fi. Other
than his vocal being a little messed up, like, it
sounds like a full song. So I just think, like
the story with it is insane, Like literally was sitting
(57:33):
in a guy's house for like what we're talking about
forty three years and nobody knew it existed, and they
thought they just deleted all of the tracks for it.
And if you listen to it, like literally a Second Arrangement,
you'll notice it's a full song. It's a and back
then you it costs a crap ton of money to
be in the studio, so they spent hundreds and thousands
(57:54):
of dollars on the song, and they went, nah, so
yeah that was my thing. Yeah, tell me what you've
been listening to, Joe.
Speaker 2 (58:04):
Well, it's summer and it's room room time. So I've
been listening to a lot of Charlie XCX this past
week the record Crash, which man, that was like I
was obsessed with her record before that that she came
out during COVID, which was how I'm feeling now. I
(58:25):
thought that record was so cool. It was like right
in the hyper pop craze, and I feel like Crash
it was like it's very it's much more traditional pop,
but it's like very like it's still banging in loud
and like cool, but it's not as experimental. But yeah,
she kind of like I mean, she didn't kind of
(58:45):
she blew up like crazy on this record. Like I
feel like it was like I think that this is
like her record, Like this is the record that people
are gonna remember for her, and so it's like it's
kind of crazy to see in real time, like how
how much she's been like thrown back into the forefront.
And she's always kind of done that, but now I
(59:09):
feel like it's a it's a it's another level of fame.
So that's kind of cool. I've also been listening to
X Ambassadors and Medium builds a new song Friend for
a Life, which is great. You can see two dudes
yelling at each other, uh in the in the thing,
(59:31):
and it's awesome. And wonderful and the song is so
fucking good. It's such an earworm, literally can't get it
out of my head at all. And then I also
I actually discovered an artist, an LA based band, an
instrumental band. They do like like Cuban beat style music,
(59:54):
but it's kind of like fusion a little bit. Yeah,
it's like they describe it as their Their sick is
a blend of Cumbia and Afro Cuban jazz and Americana
and it's really really cool. They're called the Loam l
A l O M. They're really sick. You should check
out their TikTok. They posted like a really cool set
(01:00:19):
of like live sessions that are so so good and
they like you can just tell that they're just like
expert level musicians, you know, and it's like, ah, it's
just so good. I don't know. I usually can't listen
to music that's like not without lyrics, Like it has
(01:00:40):
to be very engaging for me to like stay behind it,
but imagine krwang then but like LA and that's that's yeah,
so CAW.
Speaker 1 (01:00:53):
I was gonna say, I have bored Joe many times
with very intromental songs that go very long, so that
really tracks.
Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
It's true. They're not boring though, they're just they're deep
in mind.
Speaker 1 (01:01:05):
It's okay, you could just hurt me. It's fine, don't
worry about it. I felt the pause. I felt that
the audience felt the pause.
Speaker 2 (01:01:16):
Louder than words?
Speaker 1 (01:01:18):
How about more than words? By Extreme the number one
song anyway. Now we're a music podcast, I had to
throw it in there, guys, as always another thing you're
gonna throw in there. We have The Busy pretty much everywhere.
We have them on Instagram, we have it on TikTok,
we got it on Facebook. Wherever you consume content, we
are making content there, so we appreciate it. Follow we
want to do one more favor for us. It really
(01:01:39):
helps out the show. Rate the show, good, bad, whatever,
I don't care. It helps us out. I appreciate you guys.
At the end, thank you so much, and we hope
to see it next time.
Is the age of multimillion dollar podcast deals over.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
And our car companies killing radio. You're listening to the
biz Tape.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Welcome to the biz Tape. You're all things music, business
and media podcasts. I'm your host, Colin McKay with my
lovely host Coast to Coast Joseph Oslawski Joey. How are
we doing today?
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Done good? I'm doing good, recovering from a wild, wild week,
getting ready for a while wilder one.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
It's just a SoCal life, baby, yeah, you know, you know. Meanwhile,
I'm over here doing a run club and going to
the pool.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
That's I mean, that's the dream. Honestly, I want to
in a run club or club or.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
A solid run club. Baby, I run it with a
bunch of music industry people. Anyway, point is is that
it's pretty fun. I've been thinking about making shirts. I'm
getting closer every day. I really want to make them
because they're all music business people that are in this
run club with me and I joke I'm gonna make
up shirts and one of it's gonna say solid run club,
we run the music business. That was my idea for
(01:23):
the shirt. It's nice, but I god, dude, I gotta
stop because my budget for joke shirts is increasing in
my brain exponentially, and I'm i literally if I'm at
this point with them where I have so many jokes,
some of them are just so niche that if I
do one, I have to open the gambit. I have
(01:46):
to just do fifty shirts, and that's gonna be expensive,
especially since I'm gonna print like one just for just
for the bids. Anyway, Yeah, if you guys don't know
what kind of person I am already from listening to
the show that that's the kind of person I am,
I'm willing to put some money down on custom printing
for one joke to mess with one person in particular. Anyway,
(02:09):
here we are in the show, Baby Weird. Everyone's hot
in July for I'm sorry, June, I'm going to head.
I'm in the current whole of our business right now
where everything has gone out. Joe is you know, being
hot as hell, you know, working that camera and just
being a fine self everywhere across the America. So we
(02:31):
got some.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Crop top yesterday. I felt very hot. That was very
so cal of you, So taken aback.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
No, that's what I'm saying. It's very so cal like, yeah,
it's just like very you'd be like, it's like that
Nick Kroll joke from the Curl Show. We have one, two,
three drinks for dinner and a cigarette, then we have
some strudel and hot coffee for lunch.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
You know, it is pretty accurate.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Fair enough, but let's get into it. I don't know
who wants to start first, We'll start, all right, let's
hear it. Because I'm down, I wonder I brought this up. Actually,
I've really been talked before the show about this at all.
I had brought this up like half hazardly because my
audio friends had told me about this kind of issue
that was coming up in an episode. So you guys
(03:24):
have heard this a little bit before, warned. But Joe's
finally got the you know, big come upance coming up here.
This is actually happening for real, which is kind of crazy.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Oh yeah. So the big question are automakers ditching radio
or as it stands at this point, it's more when
are they going to be ditching radio? So, according to Billboard,
radio lobbyists are scrambling to incorporate legislature that would require
automakers to continue having am FM transmitters as more and
(03:58):
more companies are with the idea of removing them from
the perspective of radio, brands are worried about losing their
audience who rely heavily on radio, which, according to Nielsen data,
is forty two million Americans who would tune into five
thousand AM radio stations per week, which like sounds somewhat high.
(04:25):
But then when you start bringing it into like you
start comparing numbers to streaming, more than two billion global
YouTube and five hundred and fifteen million Spotify users return weekly,
which drastically engulfs the radio numbers essentially. So, I mean,
this is not this is not a new topic. I
(04:45):
mean we've covered this since we started the podcast of
like the Death of Radio and like how's it going
to look? And like wins it coming? Because it's it's
kind of like an inevitable process that I think a
lot of companies have been like kind of just kick
the can down the road and not really solving the
issue for these brands. Right. So, according to Gordon Burrell,
(05:08):
who is the CEO of Broadcast Analysis from Borrell Associates, quote,
We've had this signal for years that the removal of
terrestrial radio boxes in cars is inevitable. It might happen
ten years from now that not a single car has
an AMFN receiver in it. And if you want it,
(05:30):
you have you can get it on your phone, plug
it into the console. But it'll take time. So he's
saying like it's not going to happen like tomorrow, but
it is happening. It's going to happen. According to Pere Bouvard,
who is the chief insights officer for radio network Westwood One, quote,
(05:50):
they are going to have angry customers at some point.
The customers are going to get upset and maybe they'll
go find automakers that have want to install it, essentially,
which is like the most answer I've ever heard in
my life.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
From the nursing homes will rage.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Yeah, and man, uh we pissed off gen Z last week.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Folks are gonna opp.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Yeah, that's the That's the thing. It's like here like
the problem with with radio and this is the thing.
It's like, I've worked with so many amazing radio people.
The problem is they just pretend that the issue doesn't exist,
like they they think that consumers won it. I'm gonna
(06:43):
be honest, consumers from my perspective, those consumers who want
it are drastically reducing and you can even like look
at the numbers of local stations when it comes to
fundraising numbers, you can look at the numbers of people
tuning into AM radio at all. The biggest like example
(07:05):
they they they had in the article for people to
tuning into AM radio was was people driving tractors. So
like when they drive tractors, they have AM radio, which, like,
you know, it's like a consumer base that you can
one hundred percent cater to and like have a thing.
(07:26):
But like it's like one of those things. It's like yeah,
but like not everybody in the world is driving tractors,
you know, and we can't puniche audience.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Yeah. I was gonna say, you can't put a digital
satellite hookup and a tractor.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Yeah, well exactly you can. And like that's kind of
like the thing is, like the more the more technology
comes out the the the more use there is to
use new technology instead of old technology. But according to
Automaker's perspectives, AM radio in particular is obsolete for a
(08:02):
lot of technical reasons, mainly dealing with electromagnetic interference that
is especially prevalent in e vehicles, which is electronic vehicles,
which causes static and other noises to come through the
sound system due to the electric motors. So with the
combo of the electric motor and the waves or the transmitter, right,
(08:27):
it's catching some of the actual noise of the motor
and coming through the speakers, which is to consumers very
distracting and nobody wants to listen to that, you know,
especially if they're bumping CARDI B and which cardib on
an AM radio station would be amazing. But what's most
(08:48):
likely happening is they're bumping the very niche Christian radio
station that has like fifty listeners in their town, and
then it static rolls through.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Well, the thing is is that AM radio is like
in terms of okay, not to get super nerdy, your
Wi Fi at home mostly runs that two point four
gigahertz is the like frequency for that, right. Human hearing
is from zero to twenty thousand, Okay, whatever, But this
we're talking about like electromagnetic frequency, right, the wireless stuff
(09:23):
that people use on stage. I'm gonna go with worldwide
numbers is most like could be as low I get
I think technically could be as low like you're talking
about like four hundred to like seven hundred megaherts. So
again I went from gigahertz, which is an order of
magnitude higher than megahertz. AM radio is in the like
(09:46):
five hundred and forty to seven seventeen hundred kill a herts.
And the reason why that's important is because if you
go back to science class, is anything that you stick
electricity through that's causing a current, especially a battery, will
create electromagnetic interference in the air. And so guess what
(10:08):
your antenna in your car is supposed to do. Pick
up the AM radio, but guess what, it's also going
to pick up your battery in your car. And that's
why they really want to go after AM radio is
because it's so low that like a lot of these
batteries that's like, let's say, if you want to make
it musical, that's the tune they hum like they hum
(10:29):
around that frequency, and so that's why they want to
get rid of it because there's nothing they can do.
And then your radio is always like active, if that
makes sense. It's always there, so it's always going to
cause noise. So I understand from the automaker manufacturers why
they want to get rid of it because they're like, hey,
you know, the least of our concerns is this device
(10:49):
that we view that most consumers aren't even using. So
let's let's just gut it, because it's just going to
make people mad at us and make us have to
develop battery technology around it.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Yeah. So, I mean it is like it's at this
crossroads situation now where like the technology itself is kind
of clashing with one another and making the user experience worse.
So Tesla began removing AM radios in twenty eighteen, while
Volkswagen recently did the same thing to its ID point
(11:24):
four SUVs, which is a crazy fucking thing.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Yeah, what is that?
Speaker 2 (11:30):
I don't know. I kind of want to google it.
Let's see ID point for suv Volkswagen. It's it looks
like every car you've ever seen, a mom car like
or like it looks like it literally looks like just
a family car.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
To be honest, it looks like everything. Sorry.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Jessica Arnston, who is a Volkswagon Product communications senior specialist,
stated in the article that quote, the user experience is
not going to be very good. Most AM radio content
is also streamed over the Internet and available on HD radio,
which is FM radio or XM, so there are alternative
(12:17):
methods to get to that information. Another perspective that radio
lobbyists hold is that AM especially is important due to
the access of safety information during emergencies, since it doesn't
need as much power in order to broadcast if there
were power outages church as you know, like tornado updates
(12:39):
in Nashville is a good example, right of like if
the whole power grid fails, then you can still most
likely get updates through radio. However, it's what they kind
of leave out is like if your radio doesn't turn on,
plugged into a wall or you know, like most people
(13:01):
are not gonna be driving on the street during an
emergency in most cases. I mean, I guess it just
depends on the emergency, right, But I think.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
The idea, right is like maybe if the only thing
that I could say, because I get what you're getting at,
is that maybe, like you're in a scenario, you're in
the car, it is just like pouring down rain, you
have to focus on driving, and like there's no way
you could search something on your phone, like because you
have to focus on driving, maybe you could just hit
the radio button. AM scan and then listen to whatever
(13:31):
you know, tornado tone comes up kind of thing that's
like what the only real one I can think of?
Right for like a pro being like, oh, we could
easily use this and not our phones.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Yeah. I actually do feel like in most usages though,
the phone is still easier to access information quicker and
more accurately than AM because a lot of the times
AM emergency broadcasts are very vague. They don't have much
(14:04):
more depth to it, whereas like you know, like they're
not saying exactly a lot of the times, like where
the tornado is there, there's usually like a delayed Well.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Usually it's just like you should take cover there's a tornado.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's just telling people, yeah, to cover,
which to.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Be honest, I don't want anybody to like stormcatchers it
out there and be like on the phone, be like
that tornado is like three blocks away, Like I don't have.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Well, I mean that's true, but it is. We have
the technology now, even with whether technology, we have the
technology to track these storm movements more accurately and you
can find it on your phone. And honestly, most people
who see the warnings appear through their phone now because
of the you know, yeah, the auto alerts and the yeah.
(14:52):
So it's kind we don't have to worry about it anyway.
I think, you know, the more safety the better. Sorry
my no, I like the watchings.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
I don't care.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
But the thing about what I think is like, the
more safety the better. I mean, it's great if like
radio broadcasts that stuff. But I also think like there
are ways in which you can get the same information faster, quicker,
more accurately. So I don't think AM is necessarily I
(15:29):
don't think if AM goes away, safety goes away, you
know what I mean? Like, I think that there's still.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
For most people, you know, it will not affect them.
Do I think there is a population that is still
on AM radio? Absolutely? It almost feels you know what.
It honestly reminds me a lot of If you're around
our age, like your twenty mid twenties or even early twenties,
you probably do remember this as a kid when TV
(15:59):
went from analogue to digital. Do you remember this, Joe?
What I'm talking about For people that are uninitiated, if
you don't know, maybe you're younger listening all you know,
you could get analog TV signal or you could get
digital TV signal, which at the time you know, was
cable right, and you had to have the cable box
to do it, and some people didn't do it. They
(16:20):
just had analog. They had antennas on their TVs. And
so one day, I think it must have been like
two thousand and seven, two thousand and eight, they went, hey,
we are deciding to get rid of the analog band.
The FCC has decided to get rid of it. We're
gonna stop doing it. And there was kind of this
similar vibe where.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
People went, yeah, people are freaking out.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Yeah. People were like, hey, I don't want to have
to pay to watch TV, even if my signal is
way shittier. You know, people watch the news on TV
right and they don't can't afford cable, you know what
I mean, Like they just watch it with their antennas
and all that kind of stuff. And to me, that
had a way more solid argument than this does, just
because of the day age that it was. But it
(17:01):
does very much remind me of that time. And it's
honestly kind of funny because I forgot about it until
just we were talking about. This argument is that it
is sadly just you know, it's sad to see you
go and has been a you know, monumental force in
the formation of music in general and also just general
broadcasting and safety. But it makes sense to kind of
(17:24):
sunset this technology. You know, there's a reason I don't
have a cassette player in my car anymore, right, Like
there's a reason that.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
We well, and that's that's the importance behind automakers right now,
right is, so automakers are at this point now where
the US has made a pledge right to have like
all automakers making electric vehicles right in the next like
what twenty thirty years or whatever. Yeah, and like all
(17:55):
all of them are switching over to that. And I
would argue the sooner they do that, the more money
they're going to get. So it might be faster than
slower in a lot of cases, because they think automakers
who are slow to the adoption of it are going
to miss out on a lot of fast growing money
(18:16):
that people want. Like consumers want this for the most
part because it's cheaper on them. They don't have to
pay gas. They pay to fill up at a station
that is much much cheaper than filling up at a
gas station. That could change, you know, once prizes rise,
(18:37):
and like depending on how they get that energy to
that spot, you gain all.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
The advantages in an electric car, and I lose am radio,
you know, like, oh my, exactly right.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
And that's another thing. It's like like all of these
cars have a mass amount of technology installed, and like
you even said on a previous episode, callin that like
the highest the most important thing that consumers are looking
into when it comes to cars is the technology. That's
all they care about. They don't care about what the
(19:07):
car looks like. They care about how smooth is the
drive and does it have the ability to have Apple
car play right?
Speaker 1 (19:15):
And literally is literally like you're not.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Even joking, it is the case. I mean currently data
surprisingly values streaming and radio highly with each other, with
users purchasing cars with streaming in a slight lead. However,
like I said, I think personally, the more and more
young people who start purchasing cars, those percentages of radio
(19:40):
lovers are going to drastically decrease.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Radio Lovers is the name of my newest band. Anyway.
The point is is the rate, Like, like I do
think like there will be problems with this just because
I mean, am I gonna lie and say that there
is no one on earth using AM radio. I'm sure
there is there people that are you know, stuck in
that way. They're never gonna leave their you know, communities
(20:05):
that still use AM radio. Am radio is also the
place that most like enthusiasts would you know, go on, right,
Like if you were like, oh, I'm gonna make a
little radio station in my backyard, it's most of the
time AM radio, right, So we are kind of losing that,
and that's sad, you know what I mean. Like it
is kind of fun when you've had AM radio and
(20:25):
go through a little town and you hear this like
weird little station that you could tell like some guy
in his basement's just running, and you know, you go
out of town and that's over, and it's like, yeah,
you gotta lose that experience. Now. I am interested, obviously,
and I think what's interesting about this is not to
play kind of you know, the domino effect of it all.
(20:46):
But I guarantee you, with all of this hubbabloo about
AM radio and you know, the ease of it seemingly
so far to go away and have like a you know,
silent good night radio stations are considering what their options
are because it's not like FM is not out of
(21:07):
the question at some point, right because as people had said,
I think you had you had a really good quote
in here. They can get it somewhere else. So it's
not like these car manufacturers are turning off the lights
right like they are saying, oh, no, you can use
your phone and find it. But the thing with I
don't know about you, Joe, I was going to ask
you this, how did you come about listening to radio
(21:29):
the last time you listened to it? Like, think of
the last time you listened.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
To k XP on YouTube?
Speaker 1 (21:35):
No, no, no. What I'm saying is like a terrestrial radio signal.
When was the last time you heard one?
Speaker 2 (21:41):
When I was when I was working in radio.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Okay, so here's when I had heard it when I
hit radio accidentally on my car. Oh yeah, And to
be honest, I know, but like to be honest, yeah,
it seems obvious. But I got to think of myself,
and I'm sure other people got to think about this too.
How many times have you accidentally been on the radio
portion of your car and you're like, actually, the same pad,
(22:07):
I will put it on for a minute. I don't
know what song this is, right or something like that.
That's happened to me a couple of times.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
And to be.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Honest, that's put people in radio stations around Nashville on
my radar that I didn't think about, and I go, oh, really,
I didn't know this radio station exists. That's cool, And
they're gonna lose that if they cut out FM radio eventually.
And it's not like if they take away AM. It's
just the beginning of the dominoes, you know.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
M hm. Well, and that's the thing. It's like the
branding behind a lot of these stations too. It's it's well,
first off, it's muddy, right, you're it's there's a there's
a big difference between a for profit radio station and
a nonprofit radio station, and there's a lot of things
that either or can do or can't do. But I
(22:53):
do feel like when it comes to models of stations
that have done it really well, KXB is very high
on the list because they are more of a media
company than they are a radio station. And I think
that that is kind of how you have to shift
(23:15):
to these things. I think Lightning one hundred in Nashville
did a good job. I think they're struggling right now
when it comes to life on the Green, But I
think that they have the ability to be a promoter
and a very sizable promoter in Nashville because they have
the connections, they have, the people, they have, the the
(23:38):
audience who wants it. And then I think, like web
radio has existed since the web existed, you know, And
that's kind of another thing is like radio is still
going to be around, Like you know, we even have
Spotify radio rights.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
I mean, we talked about it, and you talked about
it too, did Digital radio is huge. People like the
idea of curation and like.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Much as much as people hate uh and should on
podcasts as we've oh don't worry, that's the next time. Yeah.
The thing is people still listen to them, Like there
is still an audience out there for them. There's still
money to be had. It's is it the most money, No,
But you don't need the most money to have a
(24:26):
lucrative business, right, So it's it's like that's kind of
where I think. I think some young people, including myself,
I'm guilty of this sometimes, I you know, can kind
of just be like radio, whatever. But ultimately it's still
(24:47):
I think a medium that could have a resurfacing effect
in the future. Like I think I can actually think that,
like if it was done well and done right, it
could be thing in just a different medium.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Yeah. Absolutely, the concept isn't bad. It's the it's literally
the medium, like you're saying. And so I think at
the end of the day, where I see this mostly,
you know, is if they get rid of AM radio,
they're really opening up the chopping block for changing what
is on the dashboard, Like the biggest deal with changing
(25:24):
the dashboard. Yeah, right, but like literally, like the last
ten or twenty years, the biggest change to the dashboard
has been putting the big ass screen in the middle, right,
like just a giant screen. And now they're really going, well,
you know, for years it was like, oh, you have
the radio. Cool. Then you have a clock. Then you
(25:44):
have like an options menu that shows you things about
your car. Then you have like the ability to uh
listen to digital radio. Then you have like your phone
can go into it now and you can play music
through your phone. Then it's like your phone can control
the whole thing. So it's like we've been adding stuff
and we it's starting. Like you know, people talk about
this on the tech side all the time, where they go, oh,
(26:04):
your UI's getting clunky or whatever. The car UI is
starting to get clunky, and the first things that are
going to get cut are radio. And so what I
think about when I look at this is that you know,
am radio leaving. You know, I'm sorry for these forty
two million Americans who clearly love this thing, but I
think the time the sunset on it. But I think
(26:25):
this is definitely a wake up call for many radio
stations that have not pivoted at all that thought they
were you know, oh well, we always have it in
the cars, you know what I mean, We always have
it in the cars, and we could always have that
factor of like what I was saying, where you could
just stumble across the radio station. The car manufacturers, I think,
are going to slowly take that away.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
And I think I even think though currently that's such
a poor business model of just like people stumbling across it.
Oh absolutely, because it's it's like you're you're you're gambling
whether or not the persons even gonna like your curation.
And when you are competing with self curation and AI curation.
(27:09):
It's like a no brainer that it's not going to
compete with the rest of that. Well, the thing just
the mainstre the main.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Purpose that radio has is that in the you know,
car driving America that we live in, the main benefit
radio has compared to other things is that it's built
into the car and it's free. And yeah, that's the
main thing. And so they lose that. Then it's like
it feels like I'm in the you know, already the
final chapter of radio. But it feels like if people
(27:38):
were holding out, like you're saying and going, oh no,
we're not adapting our business. We're not trying to make radio.
And one thing we said a thousand times on this
show is that the smartest businesses in radio so far
have been making themselves into a brand. They're not a
radio station, They're a brand. And the thing that I'm
thinking is that like it's too late, you know what
I mean. Like it's almost like if you were a
(28:00):
radio station, you haven't been doing this and now they're
striking AM down. It's too eight, you know what it's.
I feel like, instead of being like I think some
people in radio are seeing this is like if we
were on the side of Mount Vesuvius being like, guys,
you know, the volcano's coming eventually, and I'm seeing it
as the volcano's erupting now, like, so you got a
(28:21):
duck and I hope you're in a good enough place
to get away from the volcano. Like That's what it
feels like to me. But you know, other people are like,
we got a couple of years, it's fine that mountain
has that much smoke, and so like I that's honestly
the most insane thing to me is that I have
met a lot of people no no, no radio be around,
(28:41):
rido be around, and I go, I guarantee you. One
of the first things car manufacturers will take away from
their clunky screen is that big radio logo that nobody
hits half the time.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Yep, there is. I've I've been scared of my radio
button before, or I'm like, oh, what's happening?
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Yeah, And then imagine and like, because it's already deep
in the settings, imagine you do that with a m right,
and then the electric vehicle just causes like like that
that's what the car manufacturers are trying to annoy.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Mm hmmm. Well, and then I think I think to
the where where it comes to FM, and XM XIM
is able to migrate to online a lot better because
it's already kind of an online service, whereas AM FM
(29:34):
are yeah yeah, they're in there in the car, right,
it's like transmitted uh to the car or just using
a different transmitter essentially. But I I do think FM
has like the ability to not make it as well,
because I just think that most people do not, and
(29:57):
not that most people do not, because I think there's
still a lot of people that do. But I think
I think less and less people are tuning in to
local based media, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Well, I don't know. I wouldn't go that far, but
I would say that I think that it's more of
the ease of use is bad. There's a lot of
different options now, it's not the only thing in your
car that can entertain you, and it definitely has suffered
from not being able to capture the youth. Now I wonder,
(30:30):
you know, my cynical brain goes, well, maybe somebody will
get really stupid and start doing like the vinyl thing
and just be like, you know, it sounds better on FM.
It just it sounds so much better. The compassion and
expansion sounds so much better. Like that's the way it
was intended. You know. Actually, they just released a new
unreally steely Dan song that they found, and I guarantee
(30:52):
you there's some steely dance.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
I wonder what this.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Sound like on AM. Let's put it on AM real quick.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
There's definitely a fan, right dude.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
I yeah, just Godspeed Radio the Vesuvius Mountain. It's just
already all.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
Right, Colin, what'll we got next?
Speaker 1 (31:10):
All right, let's move on to a question I asked
on our Instagram, So you gotta bear with me on
this one if you are unfamiliar with this. On Instagram
over the Biz Tape every Monday, I asked a question
that's generally pretty argumentative, but this one was super argumentative,
and I said, is the era of celebrity podcasts over? Now?
(31:34):
However you feel about that question, let me just take
you on a ride back in time and maybe I
can kind of change your answer and maybe just provide
perspective of maybe why I asked the question because to
be to be bought with y'all. As some of you
guys know, I like to ask questions that you can
kind of argue both sides anyway, So let's go all
(31:54):
the way back three years from now Wolf in twenty twenty,
where everybody was basically, you know, if you if you
weren't having to deal with the impacts of COVID right away,
you were forced into these tiny little rooms and you
felt like you were away from human connection entirely, except
there was one bastion of hope for many people, which
(32:17):
was podcasts. And Joe and I started this podcast around
twenty and twenty, and I remember we talked about it
on the show. We talked about all these podcasts are
blowing up and people didn't know why, Like the DSPs
and Spotify had no idea exactly why. Everybody had theories
they were like, oh, well, people aren't in the car,
so they don't listen to music and the radio as much,
(32:38):
and they want human connection and all that. So nobody
knew why. So these DSPs such as Spotify just shaw
the causal. They said, Hey, this pandemic things caused on
everybody to get into podcast And generally podcasts are kind
of like how a TV show or a movie is
where you kind of develop a you know, thing for them,
so a fandom, if you will. Let's get some celebrities
(33:01):
on these podcasts, right, And so they just started hand
over fists buying like celebrity podcasts. Right. Spotify and Apple
did it too, and Amazon did it too. And one
of the ones I'm about to talk about right now,
which was highly sought after, is Mega Marcle and Prince Harry.
This was like a huge deal, I think Joe you
(33:21):
remember us talking about this, right?
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Oh yeah, yeah, they got like an insane million dollars.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Oh you want to know what it is? They got
twenty million dollars for a podcast, a podcast deal, like
whatever you think about Joe Rogan's you know what was
a foreigner million a deal? Okay, whatever, Like at least
Joe Rogan.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
I think that was.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Like, at least Joe Rogan had been doing podcasts. Right.
They just gave two famous people twenty million dollars to
be on to stick a microphone in their face, right,
And they were like, whatever it is, we don't care.
We just know that everybody's interested in you guys because you're,
you know, having the most drama ever with the crown
(34:02):
and everything. So we're gonna give you twenty million dollars.
And people were hype because they kept doing all this,
and then even the Rogan thing, people were hype. The
stock started going so high up with Spotify and they
did are you ready for this again? Twenty million dollars.
They did twelve episodes, which means they were making one
(34:24):
point six million an episode for this. Right, that's crazy.
Now let's cut. Now we're at the end. Spotify has
been in some rough streaks since basically the start of
the whole, like Spotify protest stuff, but that wasn't really
the cause of it, but that was like a good
(34:45):
place to put it. Spotify has been having a rough
sell because all of these companies that have been seen
as gross stocks for the last twenty years, people are
starting to go, hey, I kind of need my money,
and Spotify goes, I don't have it. I've been spending
so much money everywhere else, and so now they're cutting stuff.
So they recently, as Joe and I talked about on
(35:06):
their show, they cut two percent of their employees' careers
at the company. So two percent of their company was gone.
And guess who's also getting off that train. The Duke
and Duchess of Sussex. They're ending their show and like
they're just one example but there's a couple of different
celebrities now in terms of podcasting. Joe and I know
(35:27):
a little bit about this. A lot of these deals
are multi year, so it would make sense right like
that around now three years or so, now people are
getting off the train. Notably also, the Obamas are leaving
their exclusive podcasts on Spotify and they're moving over to
a competitor on Audible. The point being is in twenty twenty,
we saw a lot of these deals come to power
(35:48):
with like huge, big sums of money, and like time
has come up for a lot of these contracts, so
it's time to see what like kind of happened, Like
did the celebrities really take off in the do they whatever?
You know, and all that kind of stuff, like was
it worth the investment because a lot of them are
starting to leave now, right and it appears like basically
(36:09):
from our research, I don't think it did, like I
do not think it did. And the reason why I
don't think it did is because of Spotify and a
lot of these companies are not re upping these contracts,
like they're not going guys, Megan, you know, everybody, we're
doing so good on the show. We want to up
it for thirty men. No, they're not doing that. All
(36:30):
of these companies are in not good straights. They're not
you know, coming up green with cash from these huge investments.
They basically were in a argument with all the other DSPs, Apple, Spotify, Amazon,
saying who can spend the most money, And so we
all seem like we're doing the best, and then we
run the other person dry, and then we'll just live
(36:52):
enough long enough, you know, to run the other people dry,
which has been the model of all Silicon Valley for
a very long time. But the point is is, like
we don't see all these companies doing anything like Spotify
only has recently announced one non exclusive Remember their whole
thing like we were talking about with Rogan here or
you know, Mega Markle and all those people. They kept
(37:14):
doing these exclusive podcast deals which aka translates to more money.
They only announced recently that they're doing like out of
their big podcasts, they're adding they're doing a non exclusive
podcast with Trevor Trevor Noah. And that's it. Like they're
not going like we're buying everything, right, And so I
thought it was interesting because I feel like we're kind
(37:34):
of er ending this kind of segment that Joe and
I almost started, you know, since Joe and I were
innately so famous and uh uh but no, uh but literally,
like Joe and I started around the same time. So
I've been following this with the show, and I just went,
I don't know how they're gonna do this. And there's
been a lot of like blame around about what's going on,
(37:55):
and Joe, I'd love to hear your thoughts about this,
but I'm let'st give you this kind of quote like
in some summar reason here is that basically some blame that, like,
you know, if you're a celebrity, it doesn't make you
a great podcasting host, which makes sense. And then a
lot of them is a lot of them don't have
drive to do this, right, Like they don't have really
(38:15):
big like if I'm doing a make a movie every
couple of weeks, I'm not gonna have a big drive
to crank out like forty podcast episodes, right.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
And apparently Megan and Harry had some issues with that
because they wanted to like no, it was the Obamas
had issues with that with Spotify because Spotify wanted him
to do more episodes, and apparently the Obamas were like, ah,
that's kind of a kind of a hard point for us.
But like to get on, really, I'm gonna read you
this quote and it's pretty visceral. It says quote turns
(38:45):
out Mega Markele was not a great audio talent or
necessarily any kind of talent. Who said this United Talent
Agency CEO Jeremy.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
Zimmer, Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
And he said this, and I love They add this,
they said he said this over coffee at Lame Majestic
during the Cans Lions Advertising Festival, which I'm like, that's
not gonna win you any pros. And then he goes
quote he adds and you know, just because you're famous
doesn't make you great at something, which, to be honest,
(39:19):
kind of fits right, Like.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Yeah, I mean not every celebrity needs to do every
media and you know what I mean, Like I think
there's like a huge I don't know. I talk about
this all the time with my partner who's like in
management artist management, and like they have like the issue
(39:41):
as well of like we just keep asking these artists
to like sacrifice their lives essentially and like put put
their whole life on a screen and showcase it to everybody,
and they have to be doing everything. They have to
be podcasting, they have to be appearing on TV s,
they have to be playing on TV shows. They have
(40:02):
to be, you know, making tiktoks all day. They have
to also be making music and make sure that like
their release schedule goes well and that they get us
at some time and blah blah blah blah blah, and
like that's the thing. It's like, what, at what point
is it too much? And at what point what is
working and what isn't working when it comes to like
(40:24):
celebrity careers.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
I just think it's really interesting because you're bringing up
a great point. Is that a lot of these celebrities,
because they want to have a diversity of income, right,
they don't want to just be like, well if I
do bad as an actor, well I need to have
other money. Maybe if I make some songs. I mean,
like the one that comes to mind for some reason
is Ja Love. Like Jayla is a great musician and
(40:48):
also a great actor, so it makes sense you want
to be the best of both worlds. But that doesn't
happen with everybody. But it's almost like a necessity, you
know what I mean. It's almost like a requirement to
start is that you got to try everything. And it's
just weird because if you go like kind of down
a lower level, right, like you're not gonna go you
wouldn't go to a classical violinist and go, by the way,
(41:10):
do you do like poetry like you know, you know
like that, No, you wouldn't do that, right, Like you
wouldn't be like because you should. You should just do
like high level poetry at the same time that's really respected.
Like it's it's kind of like that where I think
that people forget that sometimes a lot of these celebrities
(41:30):
because they're so coveted. The thing that's selling them is
just them. It's not their talent, you know, not not
not to degrade anything, to be honest. I haven't listened
to the podcast with the with the Duke and the Duchess,
but like, you know, it's like one of those things
where I bet you know, I remember Mega Markle from
Suits as we all do, right, but like I remember
(41:53):
on that show, I was like, she wasn't that bad,
like and then she married, you know, the one of
the princes, and I was like, oh, good for her,
But I I wasn't like immediately like I think she
should write like a book and a do a speaking
like this a lot of different skill I wouldn't be like,
also she should do competitive soccer, Like no, like it's
just there's no reason for all that. But then you
(42:15):
realize that like a lot of these celebrities are just
doing it and only selling it because of their name,
which is kind of the game at the end of
the day. But like, also it's kind of hilarious when
you start putting a magnifying glass on it, and also
kind of hilarious when you think about it in terms
of maybe a podcast, which doesn't have most of the
(42:38):
time an innate by value right at the start, at
least with a book, right like hey, Like if they
came up to me and they were like, Colin, we
really love you, then I'd be like, thank you, You're
so nice. But then I'd be like, Colin, we really
love you about this, but like, we think you should
write a book. At least, like with a book, you
could be like I can have a ghost writer if
(42:59):
I really wanted to write. Or at the end of
the day, if they buy my book and hate it,
they bought the book, they you know, and I guess
they could return the book, but that's a lot of
work with podcasts, right, It's like immediately like okay, spend
twenty million dollars cool, and then podcasts and then equal
profit question mark, you know, like that's kind of what
(43:22):
it's like. It's like not straightforward at least if you know.
It was saying, hell, Mega Markle's in the next MCU
movie and people were like, oh, sick, let's go see
it because I don't know, I'm a big fan of
Mega Markle. That's one thing they bought the ticket. But
with podcasting and stuff like that, it's innately a you know,
medium that's mostly free. So it's like, what do you
(43:43):
how are you going to make your money back with this?
I don't know what do you think of that? Joe, Like,
I don't do you think you think Spotify got over
zealous in the end, like or do we think like
at that moment in time, try not to be captain obvious?
It was maybe a smart move to double down.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
I think like they saw the projections of podcasts. I mean,
podcasts at that point were projected to be like making
tons of money, so it wasn't like out of the
ordinary that they did that right, they like jumped into
these deals headfirst. I also think, you know Spotify, at
(44:18):
the time their numbers were going up, they were very
much speaking to investors. And I think this is even
previous to them being a public traded company, of them
being like, okay, like this is still an investment period
before we jump into this public space.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
And.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
It kind of backfired on them, honestly, Like I think that,
to be honest, there were some egregious, egregious deals made.
Like I don't care how famous you are, the Joe
Rogan one is insane. There's there's no way his show
(45:03):
was that impressive or that captivating or getting that many
people to justify four hundred million dollars and like.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
Okay, and we know we like obviously if you're out
there and you're like I really love Joe Rogan, we
know Colin and you know Joe are not the best
fans of Joe Rogan. Just think of the money, like
just straight up yeah, but like do they get from
one hundred million?
Speaker 2 (45:26):
It's like yeah, He's like they're treating Joe Rogan as
this as this monolith, which like he's huge, right, He's
a huge podcaster, but they're treating him like a media company.
But literally they're investing into a whole media company, and
like that's not at all what he is. He is
a personality that talks in a microphone.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
And that and that's the thing.
Speaker 2 (45:50):
Attracks about a million per episode, right, a million viewers
per episode, But like when you really break down and
do the math, it's like it's not that great of
an investment, Like they're losing money on that.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Well, it's just even that or breaking even maybe four
hundred million dollars. You could argue, maybe, oh, Joe Rogan,
because of even how controversial is you could say that
it's four hundred million dollars in marketing.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
But yeah, exactly, I was. I was about to say,
like you could argue that, like, oh, well, most of
this is marketing cost and like that's fair, I guess,
but it's also not marketing costs at the same time,
and it's not great when it's like, oh, we just
signed this deal with Joe Rogan and then he's like, oh,
(46:34):
I have all the control in this deal. I get
to bring whoever I want to bring onto this podcast
and tarnish the Spotify brand, right, because that was like
the big thing, and like.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
True, and that's true with any of the celebrities, right,
is like at the same time that you could have
such and such, you know, bring on you know, we
could bring on anybody of this show, even if they
were really terrible, right, But like we're not the biggest people,
like huge market facing people, but like celebrities could do
that and they have a lot of uh, you know,
(47:05):
leeway to get picked up. And you could get a
situation where, let's say, if they brought on somebody terrible
when you're a bigger person, it's just like, oh good,
no one listened to the show. Everyone says we're terrible
for having the show. And on top of that, like
we are losing money on this deal because we paid
twenty million dollars up front for you. So like that
(47:26):
that's where the danger lies too. And like on top
of that and with going to even the bigger celebrity stuff,
I think we could definitely hit on this, Like, you know,
moving away from Joe rid because at least Joe Rogan's
been talking to people for like years all that stuff.
Whatever you think of the guy, right, like he has
experienced he has developed, right, but like the idea of
(47:47):
taking somebody and like I know when we first started,
we sucked, you know what I mean, Like why would
they be good at this? Right? It's the same reason
about like if I started playing the clarinet. I've never
played the clarinet. I have some vague music experience, so
I guess that would translate right in the same way
as being like, you know, a really nice actor and
all that kind of stuff, where it's like, yeah, they
(48:08):
could talk and speak and some of them are very
good at improv. That makes sense, right, But that doesn't
immediately make you good at podcasting and make you a
good podcaster, right, So like that's kind of the thing.
And at the end of the day, like I think,
whatever you say, like if I get really capitalistic, well
it doesn't matter, you know, Like we get this much
marketing out of it because this famous person signed on.
(48:30):
Their episodes could be terrible, and we can still make
money because people check it out or check out Spotify
or whatever. Okay, cool, while that right, like let's just
say terrible, like mindset that way. I just think the
problem is is that if you do not have the
drive to do stuff like this, then you're just gonna
(48:50):
make bad content and you're just gonna create more bad
situations for yourself. Like if you do not have the
drive to do this, then in the same way that
like you can tell a performer on stage that doesn't
want to be there, you're gonna cause problems. You can
tell a bad performance on screen, you're just gonna do
(49:10):
more damage to yourself as like a celebrity, and also
to like Spotify and then because then it's like, oh,
we can't trust anything Spotify just outright by is the
curation's bad? Right? Why would I? It's the same reason
like when you have like a streaming service that has
like a bunch of bad shows together and you're just like,
I don't want to stream that. They probably have other
bad shows, right, Like why would I try anything on there?
(49:33):
Their shows are bad even though you're like taking it
from maybe like two or three shows, right, And I'm
sure there's something on Spotify you would like, but you
might be like, I'm not gonna go pay the fifteen
extra dollars to switch to Spotify, you know from my
Apple music that's maybe covered by my phone, Like that's
that's kind of like my whole thing with it too.
Is just like it feels like a lot of lose,
lose lose, And it felt like at the time we
(49:55):
were saying to too just super optimistic talk and be
like kick the ball down the hill, you know what
I mean, Let's deal with this later and today is later,
you know, And I don't know, man, Like, It's like
one of those things where at some point I feel
for some people because I guarantee you some of these
(50:15):
smaller deals it felt more realistic, right, be like, Hey,
you guys, maybe you guys had like a good YouTube following,
and you guys had a pretty popular podcast. We'd like
to bring you on Spotify for four under thousand dollars. Okay, yeah,
why not, you know what I mean, Like something like that.
But like, the the level of magnitude between some of
(50:36):
these deals is insane. Like you're saying, I think, you know,
Joe Rogan is the number one podcast in the world,
but I don't think there is a podcast worth four
inner million dollars. I just do not think it, you
know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
If it's the top of the world, you know, it's
like it's such a man it was even like a
gamble when they did it, you know, because it because
Spotify is just not making a return right now, and
now it's a major major investment on the table. And
(51:10):
then also pay to have the Obamas and Megan, Marcle
Harry and all of these other celebrities.
Speaker 1 (51:18):
And that's the craziest thing. It's not just one.
Speaker 2 (51:21):
It's like yeah, it's it's like, let's just get there.
Were literally like, let's poach all of the celebrities that
are a controversial, be talkative, right that like would make
sense in the news medium space. And they did that
and it didn't work out. So now it's like, I
(51:43):
don't know. I mean, podcasting in general is just in
a weird spot right, Like it's it's everybody's working from
home now since the pandemic, there's not really a necessity
to churn on a podcast unless you're in the car.
A lot of podcasts are short now. They're like fifteen
twenty minutes is like more of the highest rated podcasts.
(52:03):
And then the podcasts that are an hour plus or
like usually online like on YouTube, in like a format
of like this is a influencer, I'm going to sit
here and watch this right as opposed to listen to it.
Because now podcasting is visual and auto auto audio as well.
Speaker 1 (52:22):
It is a car, yes, keep going.
Speaker 2 (52:24):
It's automatic transmission. But yeah, I don't know. It's like
it's such a weird situation. I voted on that poll, Colin,
I voted no. I think that celebrity podcasts are a thing.
(52:44):
I think that they will continue to be a thing.
I just think that we're in a bit of a
lull moment. I think there was like a big rush
to it, and it'll come back. Like, I think there's
going to be celebrities who do it, just like there's
celebrities who stream, right, Yeah, like hop on it. But
(53:06):
I don't think necessarily I agree, Like, I don't think
it's necessarily going to be like mega celebrities, right, Like
I don't see Beyonce getting on Spotify.
Speaker 1 (53:20):
What's just crazy to me is like another you know,
because I am the historical guy. It just reminds me
of like when artists started doing books, right and being like,
I'm going to write a book and you're like, that's
not the same as writing a song, right, It's innately not.
But the one thing that and a lot of people
finding out is that you don't have to write it
somebody else can if you have to, Yeah, exactly. And
(53:43):
so that's what I'm saying is like the podcast situation
is kind of like a lose lose because especially now,
there's also like a lot of expectation on quality and
like what you're doing. There's so much podcasting, right, I
think a lot of people think, oh, you can just
get anybody in front of microphone and talk and be like, no,
it's not like that anymore. It was maybe in like
two thousand and three, you know. But like the thing
(54:06):
is is that the worst part is you can't even
fake yourself unless ooh, unless we get like Ai Beyonce
to answer everything, which honestly, honestly, I whoever does that first,
I'd be like, that's kind of a power play. I'm
not gonna lie, like if you were like if you
were like, yeah, that wasn't me, that was Ai talking.
(54:30):
All right, Joe, what do we got? What do we got?
This week? I've been listening to a crap ton of music.
Speaker 2 (54:38):
Actually, yeah, I've been. I've been in a music rout
for like weeks. Now.
Speaker 1 (54:42):
All right, well I give you disappointing. Yeah, first thing is, uh,
I did mention that Steely Dan song. So This guy
who's the engineer of Steely Dan for many years is
Roger Nichols and his daughters. This is how nerdy I am.
I follow the Roger Nichols Facebook page because I'm that
(55:03):
big of a nerd, and his daughters run the page,
and he had like all this crazy stuff and it's
just mostly because the guy was huge in technology for recording,
so it's like my nerd brain goes crazy. But anyway,
they found out that Roger Nichols there was. Steely Dan
recorded an album in nineteen eighty called Gout Show and
(55:23):
it was very notable as being one of the most
one of the first like distinctly digital records right and
like digital recording, and so they used these crazy like
dat machines from three M They were terrible. The point
is is they did like a lot of work on this,
like technologically, and Steely Dan, if you don't know, is
(55:44):
like perfectionists when it comes to being in the studio.
And they had this song that was called Second Arrangement
and they apparently in Gaucho it was bad because I
believe that I believe there was like a lot of
drug problems at that point, and like the band was
just about to break up, basically, and it was their
last album, and basically they kept doing all these different
(56:06):
songs and they were such a perfectionists. They would just
ditch the whole song, like they would just go, Hey,
this song that's like ninety five percent done, screw it,
it's gone now. And obviously what's funny. And Joe Joe
and I have actually seen this because we've worked with
people that we've just been like, God, these people are
so good at like what they do musically, it's insane.
(56:29):
And so when they think they mess up, they're not
messing up. Like it just sounds so good you can't
even notice what they think they messed up at. And
so Roger Nichols apparently did not get the memo on
this and took the demo of it and like or
took the tracks of it and mixed it, and then
he made a copy of the mix and then they said, hey,
we're not gonna do it, and he was like, oh okay,
(56:52):
and then he just forgot about it and he just
put it in a literal like drawer in his house
and then he passed away and his two daughters found it,
and it's a lost Steely Dan recording. It's called Second Arrangement.
It's on YouTube. It's really weird. It's like if you
(57:13):
know stuff about Seely Dan, it's like it definitely feels
lost in that entire record, Like you're like, I could
see where this could go completely and then like you
listen to it and it's just this high fi. Other
than his vocal being a little messed up, like, it
sounds like a full song. So I just think, like
the story with it is insane, Like literally was sitting
(57:33):
in a guy's house for like what we're talking about
forty three years and nobody knew it existed, and they
thought they just deleted all of the tracks for it.
And if you listen to it, like literally a Second Arrangement,
you'll notice it's a full song. It's a and back
then you it costs a crap ton of money to
be in the studio, so they spent hundreds and thousands
(57:54):
of dollars on the song, and they went, nah, so
yeah that was my thing. Yeah, tell me what you've
been listening to, Joe.
Speaker 2 (58:04):
Well, it's summer and it's room room time. So I've
been listening to a lot of Charlie XCX this past
week the record Crash, which man, that was like I
was obsessed with her record before that that she came
out during COVID, which was how I'm feeling now. I
(58:25):
thought that record was so cool. It was like right
in the hyper pop craze, and I feel like Crash
it was like it's very it's much more traditional pop,
but it's like very like it's still banging in loud
and like cool, but it's not as experimental. But yeah,
she kind of like I mean, she didn't kind of
(58:45):
she blew up like crazy on this record. Like I
feel like it was like I think that this is
like her record, Like this is the record that people
are gonna remember for her, and so it's like it's
kind of crazy to see in real time, like how
how much she's been like thrown back into the forefront.
And she's always kind of done that, but now I
(59:09):
feel like it's a it's a it's another level of fame.
So that's kind of cool. I've also been listening to
X Ambassadors and Medium builds a new song Friend for
a Life, which is great. You can see two dudes
yelling at each other, uh in the in the thing,
(59:31):
and it's awesome. And wonderful and the song is so
fucking good. It's such an earworm, literally can't get it
out of my head at all. And then I also
I actually discovered an artist, an LA based band, an
instrumental band. They do like like Cuban beat style music,
(59:54):
but it's kind of like fusion a little bit. Yeah,
it's like they describe it as their Their sick is
a blend of Cumbia and Afro Cuban jazz and Americana
and it's really really cool. They're called the Loam l
A l O M. They're really sick. You should check
out their TikTok. They posted like a really cool set
(01:00:19):
of like live sessions that are so so good and
they like you can just tell that they're just like
expert level musicians, you know, and it's like, ah, it's
just so good. I don't know. I usually can't listen
to music that's like not without lyrics, Like it has
(01:00:40):
to be very engaging for me to like stay behind it,
but imagine krwang then but like LA and that's that's yeah,
so CAW.
Speaker 1 (01:00:53):
I was gonna say, I have bored Joe many times
with very intromental songs that go very long, so that
really tracks.
Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
It's true. They're not boring though, they're just they're deep
in mind.
Speaker 1 (01:01:05):
It's okay, you could just hurt me. It's fine, don't
worry about it. I felt the pause. I felt that
the audience felt the pause.
Speaker 2 (01:01:16):
Louder than words?
Speaker 1 (01:01:18):
How about more than words? By Extreme the number one
song anyway. Now we're a music podcast, I had to
throw it in there, guys, as always another thing you're
gonna throw in there. We have The Busy pretty much everywhere.
We have them on Instagram, we have it on TikTok,
we got it on Facebook. Wherever you consume content, we
are making content there, so we appreciate it. Follow we
want to do one more favor for us. It really
(01:01:39):
helps out the show. Rate the show, good, bad, whatever,
I don't care. It helps us out. I appreciate you guys.
At the end, thank you so much, and we hope
to see it next time.
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