August 16, 2023 • 48 mins
The lawsuit against Lizzo provides one of the biggest brand identity cases of the modern age. Will Lizzo’s brand remain in tack or forever destroyed? While, Colin examines the CAA layoffs and wonders if they really could be involved with Film and TV being on strike. This and more on the Biztape!
Socials:
Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Threads, TikTok: @TheBiztape
Email: thebiztapepodcast@gmail.com
Sources:
CAA Layoffs:
https://www.musicbusinessworldwide.com/caa-to-lay-off-around-60-employees-report/
Lizzo Lawsuit:
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The writer's an actor. Strike are they beginning to affect
the music industry now?
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And talking about Lizzo?
Speaker 3 (00:08):
You're listening to the biz tape.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
It wasn't the BIS tape. You're all think it's music
business and media podcasts. I'm your host, Colin McKay, my
lovely host Coast to Coast Joseph Wazowski, who seems to
be running a mile a minute. Joe, how are we?
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I am stressed and depressed Colin.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Oh, that's the music business one too. Have we not
heard that before?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
It's it's really it goes hand in hand. It's like
peanut butter and jelly. It's a it's like it's like
dats and crocs. It's like a.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Sock and a shoe.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
No, no, it's more like a sock and a sandal.
You know.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
It's just it's the way it has to be.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
But it's just wrong here in the tape. This episode. Yeah,
we're gonna dive real in, gonna really dive into these
sandal series.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
It's a snail in his shell anyway, let's just uh,
I think, get right into it. Me and Joe are
run on fumes as it's pretty obvious, but you know,
we love it. We still love looking at the news.
So I thought, let's look at some trends, baby, and
I'm gonna go first. Usually I'm pohite Nash Joe, Hey,
you want to go first, and I got a nope,
I'm gonna take it. So a little bit of a
(01:41):
follow up after Joe had talked about a lot of
these producers and you know, people were making music for
SYNC specifically, and how they were being affected by these
strikes from SAG and AFTRA and everything like that. We're
kind of seeing more concrete, uh, music business movement due
(02:01):
to these strikes, even though it's alleged not to be
from this, but a lot of people think it is
from this. So I'm going to talk about CIA, which
is one of the biggest talent agencies in the world,
and they are going to lay off about sixty employees. Now,
if you know how big CIA is, that doesn't seem
to be that much, right, Sixty in the scope of
things of literally having thousands of agents and doesn't seem
(02:25):
that much. But it's a big news due to kind
of the reasons and who was laid off specifically. This
is going to affect This layoff will affect specifically the
TV LIT agents music and IT departments. So TV LIT
are the people that represent writers music. We talked about
in the last episode obviously, is maybe if you have
(02:48):
some clients that primarily bring in a bunch of sync
and you represent them, you're not gonna have as much
work in IT departments. I mean, that's just infrastructure at
the end of the day, right to support all these
agents and you know, all their different spreadsheets and whatever,
you know what I mean, they're nerdy stuff that I
don't really want to go into anyway. They're very related
(03:09):
to the strikes around Hollywood and that being the writers
and the actors right now, although I have to admit
it is alleged by CAA internally that this came after
quote a culmination of lengthy evaluation process that commence months
prior preceding the Writer's Guild of America's strike action on
(03:30):
May second, which.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Sure, you know, yeah, maybe you know, if they were
like really trying to separate the two issues, maybe they
could have waited before.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
It's kind of how I feel, and.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
During the middle of the writer's strike.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
And not to get semantics filled here, but like a
culmination of lengthy evaluation process that commence months prior. It's like, okay,
we started going to have people to lay off, and
then maybe, you know, on May second, the Writers Guild
of America and they went, well, we're thinking these people,
but all these people dv IT writers don't have any
(04:12):
work anymore, so maybe we should look there, you know
what I mean. It might be a semantics game here
where they're like, oh, it commenced prior, it started prior,
but then like you're saying, they got laid off right
after all of this happened. Right. Deadline quote said that
unlike other major Hollywood talent agencies, CIA staff reductions are notable.
(04:34):
Amid the work stoppages, competing agencies have managed to navigate
the ongoing Writers Guild of America and SAG after strikes
without resorting to layoffs, which is true as of right now.
So it is interesting that out of you know, there's
kind of two three big agencies, right, there's WMME, there's CAA,
(04:56):
and then you can kind of fight for whoever's third.
But like it is, that's interesting that one of the
biggest agencies that originally was an offshoot of w ME
is now having these layoffs in the midst of everything,
especially after agencies exploded, you know, with the COVID boom
that happened after you know, music and other forms of
(05:17):
entertainment were allowed to commence without any COVID shackles. This
also comes as quote. These developments arise a month and
a half after the one year anniversary of CIA's acquisition
of ICM Partners, which is another agency. So leading up
to the anniversary, concerns were raised as junior and non
(05:40):
partner agents from ICM have been integrated into the CIA
fold under one year contracts of the merger. So if
you're doing some math here other than that, if let's
say you are part of this other company, right, ICM Partners,
and you are acquired by CIA, a year and a
half went by and your contract was only a year.
(06:02):
So some people are theorizing that some of these people
that were cut were from ICM Partners specifically, and this
was their way of kind of clearing house as well,
on top of maybe some allegations of them losing these
people due to the Writers Guild of America strike. Right,
So that is very interesting. But like sources have told
(06:23):
Deadline that ICM Partners weren't discriminated against specifically during this
but I have to mention that just you know, I
cannot leave that out of the story because it's an
important part of it. So let's let's get to this show.
I mean, do we think I mean, we talked about
the producers, we talked about a lot of these well,
(06:45):
obviously in the chain of events, right, we have the
Writers Guild of America. We have SAG after they're on strike.
It's turning into you know, these two organizations have not
been on strike since nineteen sixty where Ronald Reagan was
the you know, president of SAG after, right, and it's
turning into one of the longest strikes that either union
(07:08):
has ever seen. It feels like we're really not getting anywhere,
although I've heard Writers Guild of America has made some
steps that they say could lead to a potential contract
with this with the studios, but who knows, still up
in the air. Right, do we think this might be
the start? I mean, we're getting into three months ago,
you know what I mean, these layoffs started. Do you
(07:30):
think we're starting to see some layoffs and you know,
these splintering kind of industry you know what I mean,
all these people that work directly on the sets are
obviously affected. But other agencies and other places, do we
think we're seeing other kind of splintering happening here?
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Yeah, I mean, I don't know in terms of like
the other agencies and stuff like that. Maybe it's a
bit more under the table than it is at CIA currently,
but I don't know. I have a hard time thinking
that w ME is gonna like pull the same stuff,
mostly because they're so rooted in visual entertainment. At w
(08:11):
it's like not just music entertainment. Their their focus is
entertainment in general, and I think it would almost have
like a worse Look, there's more eyeballs on w E specifically.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
By the way, Sorry, I have to interrupt. Do me
a favor, Yes, look up WME on Google and then
open their website and look at the Look look at
the website. If you're listening to this, do the same thing.
I want your honest reaction to this website.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
For w ME feature brands virtual reality.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
So there's like a spider web on their website. It's like,
I'm sorry, I don't mean to derail the whole conversation,
but I needed someone else to see this. It's like
this website is atrocious. Oh my god, what is going on?
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Our story? Our story. WME makes people work in the
mailroom even if they have a lot degree and then breaks.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
That's an old thing here in town. Anyway, what I
was saying was, if you if you haven't looked at
WME's website, which we'll go back to the main story,
but WM's website there is like if you look at
WME agency dot Com, it's the first thing that comes
up on Google if you search w ME, this spider
web of like different kind of you know, things they
(09:35):
represent comes up and they're all connected. And so it's
like funny because I get what they're saying, and this
will weed back into our conversation here. But like, you know,
all of these industries are related. But what's really funny
about the spider web is like they they're only connected
in like one of two ways. Right, So for some
reason music is connected to theater, books and television and
(09:57):
nothing else. Yeah, oh books, you're thinking music. Yeah, anyway,
I mean, and some agents are gonna go yeah, there's
big book deals out there anyway. But the point is
is that I was going to go into was this
kind of splintering. That's happening right here is that some
of these music business agencies, right, I mean, and a
(10:19):
lot of these agencies that we would consider primarily in
the music business, ones that we talked about on the show,
have considerable investments and also connections into Hollywood specifically, right,
and you are listening to one of the biggest, which
is agencies agencies have. You know, they're primarily rooted a
(10:41):
lot of the time in Hollywood, you know what I mean,
Like this is their bread and butter. So it's interesting
to see from a music perspective because we're so used
to hearing them from you know ours that hey we're
booking the store, Hey we're doing this, you know the
mail room, all that kind of stories that we grew
up in Nashville having. But like, it's, uh, it gonna
be a big deal here because these are the first
(11:03):
line of you know, music related companies that would be
immediately affected by these strikes. Right. So that's why I
personally think this may be the start of also, you know,
music business being massively effective from these strikes because of
the importance of music in general, which we're already seeing
(11:24):
on the creator side being effective because you know, if
you have a song to pitch to a studio, they're
not making shows right now, so you can't really do it.
But here's the other part. We're going into more big business,
such as the agencies that have huge connections into Hollywood.
But I think it's other than the satrocious website. This
(11:45):
is actually a pretty good example of going like this
diversification of income that we you know, sometimes in music
find ourselves being a little bit too ancillar with these
giant corporations because a lot of them are giant corporations
for a reason, because they have a diversity of income
from many different places. But Joe, what are your overall
(12:08):
thoughts on this do we think do we think we
should batten down the hatches, we should be prepared for
other parts of the music industry that will, you know,
be affected by this day to day.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
I don't know if necessitary. Like I think the biggest
thing being impacted from the music industry directly is probably
still the sync part of the industry. But do you
think that when it comes to how this is being
handled personally, I think that this is pretty abysmal of
(12:46):
CAAA to do, especially they're just like, oh, you know what,
we can save a few extra bucks and just put
these people out of jobs and then we'll just like
resign new people when the industry comes back. And I
just personally, I think it's kind of ridiculous to assume that,
(13:07):
like even if they're just assuming that like writers will
no longer exist at the end of that, I think
it's it's pretty ridiculous to assume that. In general.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
It's interesting too because like agencies are the most splintering,
one of the most splintered cells of the entire industry.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Right, Yeah, I mean I don't really get it. More
more so because a lot of these agents are making
money from their I guess they have a salary tacked
on with like commission, but it's not like their salary
is like insane a lot of the time, unless you're
like a top level agency or agent, like you're not
(13:49):
You're not getting like six figures, you know, for the
most part. And so it's like, I don't know, it
just personally leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I
think CAA really is doing a disservice to the entertainment
industry by doing this, and a disservice to these people
(14:12):
and kind of showing where they stand honestly in the
picket line when it comes down to it to something.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
It's interesting too because like CIA and WM and a
lot of these agencies compare. I mean, they have giant
corporate connections in the same way that like promoters do.
We've talked about how lad Nation kind of has a
splintering effect. I would even say agencies have a more
splintering effect in the terms of that these strong powers
are made of of these individual agents, their skill sets,
(14:41):
to their relationships and who they know right and thankfully
for maybe these sixty people, it is kind of amazing,
like every three seconds, especially like when the pandemic like
first was you know, coming out, you know, and all
these layoffs happen with CAA and WME and a lot
of these other bigger agencies. It's like it's kind of
(15:02):
insane to watch. But there's so many if you like
go through Billboard, you go through music business worldwide, there's
so many where it's like two or three CAA agents
have decided to start their own agency, right, And that's
where it's a little bit deadly as a corporation, and
even more so than maybe the giant COG that is
(15:23):
a label, right, or even a publishing house right. Because
of these agents and their personal kind of for lack
of a better term, they're almost like less of a country.
They're more of a like a confederacy, you know, made
up of small parts, right, And it's kind of amazing
to watch and see them lay off these employees because,
(15:44):
to be honest, a lot of them will just go
off on their own, you know what I mean, if
they're dissatisfied, they'll just leave, you know what I mean,
a lot of them will. And it's kind of bread
into that agency culture, especially from the agencies I know.
So it's it's very like they're saying WM is not
doing this. Other agencies are not doing this, which is
(16:05):
why it's kind of like you're saying, they're drawing their
own line in the sand. It's their particular take on
the situation, which seems to be irregular in the industry. Now,
hopefully six to seven months from now, they are, you know,
they go, this was the move at the time. Everybody
else should have followed us, but currently none of their
(16:28):
other people are following, if that makes sense, So we'll
have to see from there. I think the agencies are
probably one of the first of the other than the
creators themselves that will be impacted by the impacts of
the Hollywood ongoing strikes. So we'll just leave it at
(16:51):
there because I want to give as much time as
I can to Joe's story. So Joe take it away.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Thank you. Well, I think it's about time that we
talk about.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Lizzo Rizzo from Manhattan.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Yes, Rizzo, our favorite musician. No Lizzo. By now, you've
probably heard of the Lizzo drama, which is that three
former tour dancers came out and filed a lawsuit against
the mega huge pop singer, accusing her of creating a
(17:30):
toxic work environment, body shaming, and sexual harassment, and since
the initial lawsuit was presented, six more former employees have
also filed complaints. The allegations include discussions that dance leader
Quiggly is her last name, spoke about her religious views
(17:52):
as a Christian, and, as Vox puts it, quote berated
those who didn't share these beliefs. The law suit also
claims that one dancer's virginity was talked about extensively without
her consent, and that the dancers were pressured into participating
in a group Christian prayer, which I'm assuming like the prayer.
(18:15):
I don't know what they're talking about, but maybe it
might be like a lot of the times before you
go on stage, you have like a pre show ritual frame,
like a little power of times, Yeah, a little pow
wow with like the whole crew and stuff like that.
I'm wondering if that's what's going on.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
If you ever played like sports in the South, it's
very I would imagine it's very similar to that, where
it's like, boys, we're gonna take up a little prayer
real quick. Everybody get down on her knee, thank you,
you know, and then they do that that that might
be what they're talking about, but we don't know the
entire thing. It may be more elaborate than that, you
know what I mean. But that's what I imagine it
would be.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Yeah. Same. But also in the lawsuit are allegations that
state that Lizzo expressed concern over a dancer's weight gain,
making the dancer feel self conscious, as well as surprising
dancers who are already hired to have a pop quiz
(19:14):
like audition to keep their spots, in which the dancer
in question soiled herself out of fear that she would
lose her spot if she went to the bathroom. And
I think Vox does a great job explaining why, in particular,
this lawsuit is so important, they say, quote. The lawsuit
(19:35):
underscores the poor working conditions in the music industry and
the lack of accountability that exists for such abuses. Long hours,
difficult physical labor, and short term contracts are common, while
institutional oversight of individual artists isn't always present. Other artists,
(19:55):
including Share in Britney Spears, have been sued by their
employees in the past for alleged discrimination and battery, respectively.
For example, Shar's case was dismissed and Spears settled her
case and they continued stating quote. The lawsuit has felt
more surprising to some fans given the public positions Lizzo
(20:17):
has taken on promoting women's empowerment and celebrating plus sized bodies.
Aspects of the lawsuits, such as the alleged statements concerning weight,
appear to directly contradict those stances. Other developments have brought
attention to the case as well, including Beyonce's decision not
to mention mention Lizzo's name while singing a song that
(20:40):
references her in a recent concert, which I'd actually interject
here Beyonce recently as of like yesterday, I think yeah,
did actually mention her again.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
I was about to mention that she like screamed like
I love you Lizzo in Atlena show.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
She did, but she also did, like I think, like
her team did take down like a remix or something
that she had with Lizzo from DSPs or something. I
don't know if a was like a temporary takedown or what,
but definitely, like Beyonce's camp for a while, there was
like just trying to figure it out, and for some fans,
(21:17):
as Vox continues, lyrics and Lizo's song rumors have taken
on a different tenor in the wake of the lawsuit.
In that song, she refers to people trying to sue her,
mentions non disclosure agreements, and sings about not caring about
legal matters. The suit is also renewing discussions among pop
(21:38):
culture observers online about the need for stars to be
held responsible for bad behavior and the disparities that continue
to exist on that front. Like anyone fielding such allegations,
Lizzo should face the legal process and potential consequences for
any harm that she's caused, but she's also likely to
get more blowback for such a lawsuit than would a
(22:00):
white male star like Brad Pitt or Johnny Depp, both
of whom had fielded allegations of abuse and denied them
due to sexism, racism, in fat phobia she has to
deal with. And then I'd also like to stay like
in the court of public opinion, a lot of former
fans are finding it very hard to defend her as
(22:21):
she has selected celebrity lawyer Martin Singer who represented Bill Cosby,
Charlie Sheen, John Travolta, Jim Carrey, Kim Kardashians, and so
many more celebrities who are viewed as abusive in the industry.
And so yeah, there's a lot of layers to this situation.
(22:43):
I think, like one of the things I want to
just point out, I think we wanted to wait before
discussing this, mostly because there was so much that was
coming out still in the press of just like what
was going on. But Colin, what are you thought? Like,
I have a couple of questions, Like, first off, there's
(23:04):
there's like this narrative, right that Lizzo is being almost
like attacked by the press. What is your take on
that situation.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
I mean to say that because of the way that
Lizzo is perceived by our society and everything that, you know,
these claims aren't even made bigger or even worse, have
some hyperbole to them. Would be insensitive to say that
that doesn't exist because you know, the color of Lizo's skin,
(23:37):
being a woman, and also dealing with fat phobia like
Wizzo will deal with as you know, what was a
variety or vox just said, uh, or vox just said
she will deal with astronomically more hard criticism than someone
that does not look like her right at the end
(23:59):
of the day, like in terms of media coverage, just
straight up, So we have to keep that in mind.
But also I do think that a lot of outlets
have latched onto the story just because of the almost
irony that these claims have. Right, is that Lizo, for
(24:22):
a lot of people and in her branding represents you know,
this body positive kind of ideals and movement. So to
hear claims that she was supposedly doing the opposite of
that is very you know, almost story esque, right. It
blows the story into like something that seems very interesting
(24:44):
to a bunch of outside people, right, because it's the
opposite of her branding and everything. It is like a
one eighty from everything that a lot of Lizo fans
would say she stands for. Right. So I think there's
a combination of two things going on. Just the one
a heediness of the allegations at the end of the
day compared to her branding are blowing this story out
(25:05):
of proportion, while also the systemic problems that she deals
with in her entire career right of sexism, racism, in
fat phobia. So I think that there is you know,
a level where you could go and say, hey, these
are blown out of proportion, and the level of severity
in certain ways that this is presented is higher because
(25:27):
of sexism, racism, in fatphobia. But at the same time,
the irony that's probably the best word of how different
this is from her branding due to the allegations that
are against her, are what blows this story into something
that seems intensely interesting to let's say, like a kind
(25:47):
of what it reminds me of, like a tabloid you
know what I mean being like having some ridiculous thing,
but this is a real lawsuit. These are real people
that claim they've been abused. It's it's almost picturesque in
that way that this story has come up. So I
think that's what's really grabbed people's attention about it. At
the end of the day, Joe, what do you think?
(26:08):
Let me, what do you think about this coverage? How
do you how do you feel about its portrayal of
Lizzo in the situation and do you think it is
more blown over?
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Yeah, I mean I think that it is. It is.
I think it's true that she's fighting a much bigger
uphill battle than I think a straight white like dude
would be fighting, you know. And and to be honest,
(26:39):
I think in a lot of cases people almost view
most stars is like difficult to work with, tough cookies
for lack of a better term, and as horrible as
I think that that outlook is, I think it's pretty
pervasive in public knowledge and so like to have this
(27:01):
kind of like one eighty effect is a bit it's
a bit interesting to see. I don't At the same time,
I'm of the personal belief of I do not think
that superstars or artists get to have a pass for
(27:22):
being horrible people. I just don't agree with that. I
think that opening up about these abuses and talking about
these things openly is very, very important, and unfortunately, the
entertainment industry breeds a lot of really horrible, egotistical personalities
(27:45):
to be honest and kind of just perpetually enables these
people to be horrible in some regards, because nobody wants
to be the person that's like the whistleblower. Yeah, in
a lot of these cases, because like here's the thing,
Like these these people coming out about Lizzo are dealing
(28:09):
with a lot, right They're on one hand, they're getting
a lot of fame right now, they're getting fifteen I
would like to stay also, fifteen minutes of fame by
the time this is all over, I don't think people
will to be honest remember them.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
I haven't even heard the I haven't even heard the accusers' names. Yeah, Like,
you know, if you think this is a fame grab,
like I've I've read multiple articles and none of them
say this is a person's name, you know what I mean? Like,
so you think, like it's definitely it's definitely not like
(28:46):
they're going to gain like some giant notoriety straight away
from this, even if you think that that was the intention.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yeah, it was. What's interesting is like there's another level
of it to where the main three have actually been
doing like TV interviews and stuff like that and like
have been named, have shown their face. But yes, the
level of notoriety is very, very different to where it's
(29:19):
not going to be like they have Lizo fame at
the end of this right where it's like they're regarded
as amazing people and in a lot of cases in
a whistleblower environment, you're actually very threatened. Especially I'm sure
that they are getting a lot of threats, a lot
of death threats, a lot of negative attention that nobody
(29:45):
wants at the end of the day.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
And I'm sure there's people that believe that because the
claims are so counter to her branding, that there's no
way it could be true.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Yeah, there is a big there's a big belief of
that for sure. But I also, you know, I think
that it's very telling if other people are also stepping
out of the woodwork to kind of say that they
(30:16):
experienced very similar things. I mean, six other people have
come out to say that they have also dealt with horrible.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
A total of nine people.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Yeah, and they're jumping on the lawsuit as well. Part
of that, Like people could view that as like, oh, well,
now they're seeing it's getting like public opinion traction, and
so now they're choosing to jump on. But at the
end of the day, you know, like imagine, like you
had an abuse, you were in an abusive situation with
a pop star, and you were one of three at
(30:50):
the time of like lawyers, of you consulting lawyers, the
chances of your case actually like getting anywhere is very small,
And so with the amount of media attention and crowd
attention that this is bringing, it is kind of shifting
the perspective of I think these whistleblowers to come out
(31:12):
and give their stories. Ultimately they feel more confident being
able to to tell their story and feel confident being
heard because it is it's very nerve wracking, especially if
like celebrities are very loved their celebrities for a reason, right,
(31:33):
they're loved by people by a massive amount of people.
And if you counter that narrative with your own experience,
and if it's a negative experience, then that is it's
it's very nerve wracking. It's very hard to like come
forward and talk about it, you know.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
God yeah, And that's kind of the thing is like, again,
the level of these claims should not be underestimated. Nine
people are making this claim as well, you know, are
getting onto this to talk about this, and it needs
to at least be examined in a court of law,
you know, at least. And I think, like, like I
(32:18):
was saying, it's just these these people are very much
in an uphill battle throwing down money on the table
to say, hey, we've been abused and we deserve some compensation,
compensation from that for from Lizo. With at the end
of the day, what's so damaging about this for Lizo
(32:39):
other than obviously punitive damages that could come up from
these you know, lawsuits, It's just that it is it
is a you know, nail in the coffin to her branding,
Like it is so contrary to what has made Lizzo
(33:00):
into the public eye. I mean, it's a great singer,
great performer and stuff like that, but the entire message
of Lizzo thrown in that package together cannot be understated.
And the importance of how much that connected to people
around the world cannot be understated.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Right.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
She came onto the scene in a very outlier situation
where she said, Hello, I know I don't look like
the status quo. You guys should believe in me because
I believe in you. We are body positive. I don't
care what you look like. We are in it together
and that connective with people around the world. And this
is the nail in the coffin that says the contrary
(33:37):
is that Lizzo does not fall behind this branding so
and you can see it in all these songs, so
you know, like that she puts out that are all
about feeling yourself, feeling good, no matter the circumstance, no
matter who you are, and Lizo, through her alleged actions,
could be proven in a court of law to go
no in real life, you are even part of this
(34:00):
system that oppresses everyone, including yourself. So it's I think
really that's at the heart of it. Why it's such
a monumental issue for Lizo as well as why it's
caught media attention is because of the contrary. Again, I
(34:22):
do think that like Vox has put a various two
point here, which is that it it quote underscores the
poor working conditions in the music industry, the lack of
accountability that exists for such abuses. Long hours, typical physical labor,
and short term contracts are common. So like that that's
a perfect thing. Is that at the end of the day,
(34:44):
some of these issues are even exacerbated by the working
conditions that these people work in and the non affirming
and also just you know, there's no hr right like that,
you know what I mean, Like this almost non corporate
(35:04):
structure to a corporate being right that it's all lacks
a daisical that it is you know, not a business
relationship going on. You're all part of this team. It
can be very toxic and I've seen it myself, and
so I think that it is a very important one
that hopefully other than the situation at Bay and Lizo,
(35:27):
in a situation that could be found to be contrary
to our branding. I think that is one of the
biggest takeaways here is that this is not a unique
scenario and is also exacerbated by the conditions that are here,
right and either way, like you could think of it
as if you think one way about the lawsuit, if
(35:50):
you think, oh I lizo may have caused this. If
you believe that that's what actually happened, it may be
not excusing her, but it may be exacerbated by the
fact that there's this lacks a daisical team attitude, family
attitude that made someone feel like they were entitled enough
to create an abusive situation. You may also say the
(36:10):
opposite is that if you're you don't think that this
is true, or the dancers aren't with it, and maybe
because they're just dead tired and can't read a scenario
that's happening, you know, in real life. So it's just
like nothing good will come out of this work environment, right,
even it's so hard to get black and white out
of this situation because of the situation that is created
(36:33):
by the lifestyle of these individuals. Right, And it's not
their fault, it's the actual structure of the work.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Right.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
If they have to feel like this poor person that
alleges that they soil themselves out of fear that is
probably exacerbated by short term contracts that they are not,
you know, entitled to be there longer than they need
to be. They feel like they're expended, Right, That just
really hits it home that.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
And I mean the the innate pressure of dealing with
an arena tour, right yeah, and like you're there, there
is a thing of like, oh, you should be so
happy that you're touring with ex artists, right, Like, you're
getting so much opportunity touring with X artists. But then
it's it's like, well, it's there's only so much that
(37:27):
can get you.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
You're getting so much opportunity, and I can't find articles
with their names, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Yeah, exactly, you're getting so much opportunity to not get credited, right,
to not get paid well.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
To be a large cog in this machine, and your
job is to not be the squeaky wheel, you know
what I mean. So, I again, I think, either way
you think about this lawsuit, these working conditions and the
way and the environment of them exacerbate these situations to
exit is what I'm saying, Either way to create If
(38:04):
you think it's such a frivolous lawsuit, then it creates
more frivolous lawsuits. If you think this is you know,
a situation where these people are rightfully, you know, justified
in their opinion of what happened on tour, then it's
also creates that it's both ways, you know what I mean.
And so I think that in the lack of the
(38:25):
best terms is Vox puts it, institutional oversight needs to
be present right and from a factor. And this is
the best part is it's multiple institutions. That's that's the problem.
It's not just like, oh, it's just the artists. It's like,
oh no, it's also the promoter. It's also the audience expectation.
(38:47):
It's also you know, like there's a lot of things
that have to change for situations like this to be
more outliers and not common and not literally like Joe
has shown a list of people we can just ledge
right out and go, oh yeah, this happened to ten
other people, you know what I mean. God, do Joe
any final thoughts on this?
Speaker 2 (39:09):
No, I think like ultimately, I think ultimately we're just
gonna have to see what happens with this lawsuit. It
doesn't seem to be stopping anytime soon. It only seems
to be ramping up, as I mean daily, Lizo is
losing followers and streams, and so it's kind of it
(39:32):
is definitely taking like Lizo is taking a hit, like
with her reputation with her fan base, and I'm wondering
if there's gonna be almost like a countersuit of defamation
coming along the corner.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
From Liz's camp.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Yeah, Like I'm wondering if that's gonna like a countersuit.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Well, I mean literally, if you look up Lizzo on
Instagram right now, the first thing is, uh, Lizzo lawsuit
popular That's what comes up. Yeah, so it's.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
Not going if you type your name into Google, it's
just all articles.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
About it, right, And like, unlike a lot of other
lawsuits that we've talked about where it feels like, oh,
it's just a you know, a chip in the armor,
and they're still moving along, it feels like there are
some real consequences happening, Like you're saying on the social
media front, I know that they were supposed to do it.
(40:29):
Lizzo was supposed to front that Made in America festival
that was canceled, and people alleged that maybe she was
part of the reason that it was canceled. So it's
like I think we're seeing not necessarily, Oh, this is
just a chip in the armor. We're moving on. It's like, no,
the gash is getting bigger, Like more people are getting
(40:52):
eyes on this and more people are going to follow
it through this judicial system. So we're gonna see what happens.
It wouldn't surprise me if Lizo's team does not try
their best to find some way immediately to basically pay
these people off, Like it would not surprise me that
(41:13):
if they're throwing out, you know, oodles of money going
do not keep suing us Here's like oodles of money
and I and we'll have to see, you know, some
it depends on how they the accusers want will go.
You know, if they're if they think that they're justified
just with money and that's what they want, then they
might take it. If they want to, you know, really
(41:37):
bury the hatchet here and just take the money and
walk away, that's an option. But if they want to
really examine this and drag Lizo through it, they've started
the process and there's nothing stopping them right now. So
we'll have to see what happens. Like you said, I
think that this is just going to get worse for Lizo.
(41:58):
That is, like this is just gonna blow up even more.
We're going to see this followed even more just from
these pre discussions that are even happening on these you know,
different publications. It's intrigued everyone. And then again, I sincerely
think it's because it's contrary completely to her brainding. So
(42:19):
we'll see unless unless they throw a hail Mary and
they go here's a couple million dollars right, go away forever,
which is sadly, I think.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
Yeah, it's it's it's definitely disappointing, Like it's a disappointing situation.
I I I'm want, I'm I'm very curious to see
what happens in the lawsuit, right and see what comes
out of it, because as a very substantial evidence, then yeah,
(42:56):
I mean it's very hard, as from like Liz's side,
to come back from this. Right, it's so polar opposite
of her brand.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
And that's what we call brand death at the end
of the day. Like, if you have this kind of
sheer opposite to what you say as a as a
person or a company you stand for. If you have
a sheer shining example that legally gets proven in a
court of law that these people were right, oh my god,
(43:28):
you know what I mean, there's not much that they
can do to recover from that unless they have, you know,
the smaller amount of people and like, I'm sure people go,
Lizo will be all right, and I was like, that's fine,
you know, I'm sure that they will be no matter
what you think of the situation. But at the end
of the day, this is like, this is stopping Lizzo
(43:50):
from you know, keeping exploding. Right, this will be held
against her for the rest of her career, just the allegation,
not even before it's you know, proven in a qud
awa or not proven in a quart a while, right,
this will follow her for the rest of her career.
This is the kind of stuff that people will you know,
the hey, did you hear the new Lizo song? And
somebody will go, no, I don't listen to her because
(44:12):
she's contrary to all our beliefs. So that's that, that's
the level of controversy we're dealing with, folks. And we'll
just like you said, I have to.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
See, what's some fire tracks you've been listening to?
Speaker 3 (44:28):
You?
Speaker 1 (44:30):
Oh god, let me pull up my YouTube music boo.
Let's see. I bought it. I bought a CD as
I uh was talking about the other day, which was
a Prince's second album, because I use that I Want
to Be Your Lover song as my pa chech song
if you want to know what I used to test equipment.
(44:50):
But Fanfare for the Common Man Aaron Copewen is the
original classical composer who made this song. But and what
I like is the Emerson Lincoln Palmer version, which is
a very long progue. You know, Everson, Lake and Palmer
is a nineteen seventies trio rock group that is one
(45:12):
of those that you go, yeah, this is prague. You know,
everybody likes to be weird with that term and go, no,
this is It's one of those where you go, yeah,
this is progue. It's Emerson, Emerson, Lake and Palmer. Yeah,
this is prague. It's yes, but Emerson, Lake and Palmer,
like do this classical piece. It's got no words to it.
I know you've heard this song because literally I was
(45:33):
sitting at work blaring this song from my desk and
one of my coworkers comes up to me and they go, uh,
why do I know this song? And Uh? I was like,
do you know the original Fanfare for the Common Man
by Aaron Culplan And she's like, I think I've heard
this in a bunch of like movies and TV, and
I'm like, you probably have. Well, this is a reimagining
(45:53):
of that classical piece. So it was very revolutionary at
the time just because of the like technology with the
synths and everything. And it's just a trio of three guys,
which is kind of amazing, and it's like, once you
start listening to it, it's you kind of have to
put yourself in the reference point a thinking back then
and going, Wow, this three guys is doing an interpretation
(46:18):
of an entire classical piece that would take literally like
tens of people to do, which I think is really cool.
Once you start listening to it and you go, oh,
it's one guy playing all the keyboards. Oh, it's one
guy playing bass, and it's one guy playing the drums,
and it's just weird because it feels like a technological
stepping stone for kind of how people imagine what synthesizers
(46:38):
could be used for. Anyway, was that the nerdiest freaking
thing I could say on this show? Probably? But Joe,
what have you been listening to?
Speaker 2 (46:45):
Hell? Yeah, nerdy as fuck. It was awesome. I've been
listening to a song called Fame from a band called Deeper.
They're really sick. They're kind of like they're kind of
like the Districts, but like with an eighties twist, and
I don't know. The lead singer just has a very
distinct voice and it's very energetic, kind of harsher music,
(47:11):
but it's it's really really cool. A lot of the
songwriters very like it kind of sucks you in. And
then listening to that new McGhee tracks how Many Miles,
which is amazing, and then I've been obsessed with Big Thief.
You're listening to a lot of Big Thief this week.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
I don't know why, but when you said how many miles,
I want to be like so many, so.
Speaker 4 (47:34):
Many, ten thousand miles and that it's just a remix
of that Oh God, And but the remix is just
him going how many miles and then he's like ten thousand.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
And it's just like that mixed poorly. It's like so
loud you have to like turn it up and then.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
Turn it down, you know, and ha, I will walk that.
That's like the beat drop right there.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
Uh well, we'll see you on the next beat drop
with this mic drop.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
That was criminal. Guys, thanks for listening to the biz tape.
You're all Things, Music, Business and Media podcast, we sure
do appreciate it. If you want to follow us at
the biz tape, pretty much everywhere that does is a
big favor as well. Let's rate us good, bad, ugly,
whatever you want to do. Clint Eastwood and all help
us out by rating the show, show it to a friend, whatever,
as always, guys though, at the end of the day,
(48:35):
thank you, thank you so much for listening, and we
hope to see you next time.
The writer's an actor. Strike are they beginning to affect
the music industry now?
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And talking about Lizzo?
Speaker 3 (00:08):
You're listening to the biz tape.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
It wasn't the BIS tape. You're all think it's music
business and media podcasts. I'm your host, Colin McKay, my
lovely host Coast to Coast Joseph Wazowski, who seems to
be running a mile a minute. Joe, how are we?
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I am stressed and depressed Colin.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Oh, that's the music business one too. Have we not
heard that before?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
It's it's really it goes hand in hand. It's like
peanut butter and jelly. It's a it's like it's like
dats and crocs. It's like a.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Sock and a shoe.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
No, no, it's more like a sock and a sandal.
You know.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
It's just it's the way it has to be.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
But it's just wrong here in the tape. This episode. Yeah,
we're gonna dive real in, gonna really dive into these
sandal series.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
It's a snail in his shell anyway, let's just uh,
I think, get right into it. Me and Joe are
run on fumes as it's pretty obvious, but you know,
we love it. We still love looking at the news.
So I thought, let's look at some trends, baby, and
I'm gonna go first. Usually I'm pohite Nash Joe, Hey,
you want to go first, and I got a nope,
I'm gonna take it. So a little bit of a
(01:41):
follow up after Joe had talked about a lot of
these producers and you know, people were making music for
SYNC specifically, and how they were being affected by these
strikes from SAG and AFTRA and everything like that. We're
kind of seeing more concrete, uh, music business movement due
(02:01):
to these strikes, even though it's alleged not to be
from this, but a lot of people think it is
from this. So I'm going to talk about CIA, which
is one of the biggest talent agencies in the world,
and they are going to lay off about sixty employees. Now,
if you know how big CIA is, that doesn't seem
to be that much, right, Sixty in the scope of
things of literally having thousands of agents and doesn't seem
(02:25):
that much. But it's a big news due to kind
of the reasons and who was laid off specifically. This
is going to affect This layoff will affect specifically the
TV LIT agents music and IT departments. So TV LIT
are the people that represent writers music. We talked about
in the last episode obviously, is maybe if you have
(02:48):
some clients that primarily bring in a bunch of sync
and you represent them, you're not gonna have as much
work in IT departments. I mean, that's just infrastructure at
the end of the day, right to support all these
agents and you know, all their different spreadsheets and whatever,
you know what I mean, they're nerdy stuff that I
don't really want to go into anyway. They're very related
(03:09):
to the strikes around Hollywood and that being the writers
and the actors right now, although I have to admit
it is alleged by CAA internally that this came after
quote a culmination of lengthy evaluation process that commence months
prior preceding the Writer's Guild of America's strike action on
(03:30):
May second, which.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Sure, you know, yeah, maybe you know, if they were
like really trying to separate the two issues, maybe they
could have waited before.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
It's kind of how I feel, and.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
During the middle of the writer's strike.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
And not to get semantics filled here, but like a
culmination of lengthy evaluation process that commence months prior. It's like, okay,
we started going to have people to lay off, and
then maybe, you know, on May second, the Writers Guild
of America and they went, well, we're thinking these people,
but all these people dv IT writers don't have any
(04:12):
work anymore, so maybe we should look there, you know
what I mean. It might be a semantics game here
where they're like, oh, it commenced prior, it started prior,
but then like you're saying, they got laid off right
after all of this happened. Right. Deadline quote said that
unlike other major Hollywood talent agencies, CIA staff reductions are notable.
(04:34):
Amid the work stoppages, competing agencies have managed to navigate
the ongoing Writers Guild of America and SAG after strikes
without resorting to layoffs, which is true as of right now.
So it is interesting that out of you know, there's
kind of two three big agencies, right, there's WMME, there's CAA,
(04:56):
and then you can kind of fight for whoever's third.
But like it is, that's interesting that one of the
biggest agencies that originally was an offshoot of w ME
is now having these layoffs in the midst of everything,
especially after agencies exploded, you know, with the COVID boom
that happened after you know, music and other forms of
(05:17):
entertainment were allowed to commence without any COVID shackles. This
also comes as quote. These developments arise a month and
a half after the one year anniversary of CIA's acquisition
of ICM Partners, which is another agency. So leading up
to the anniversary, concerns were raised as junior and non
(05:40):
partner agents from ICM have been integrated into the CIA
fold under one year contracts of the merger. So if
you're doing some math here other than that, if let's
say you are part of this other company, right, ICM Partners,
and you are acquired by CIA, a year and a
half went by and your contract was only a year.
(06:02):
So some people are theorizing that some of these people
that were cut were from ICM Partners specifically, and this
was their way of kind of clearing house as well,
on top of maybe some allegations of them losing these
people due to the Writers Guild of America strike. Right,
So that is very interesting. But like sources have told
(06:23):
Deadline that ICM Partners weren't discriminated against specifically during this
but I have to mention that just you know, I
cannot leave that out of the story because it's an
important part of it. So let's let's get to this show.
I mean, do we think I mean, we talked about
the producers, we talked about a lot of these well,
(06:45):
obviously in the chain of events, right, we have the
Writers Guild of America. We have SAG after they're on strike.
It's turning into you know, these two organizations have not
been on strike since nineteen sixty where Ronald Reagan was
the you know, president of SAG after, right, and it's
turning into one of the longest strikes that either union
(07:08):
has ever seen. It feels like we're really not getting anywhere,
although I've heard Writers Guild of America has made some
steps that they say could lead to a potential contract
with this with the studios, but who knows, still up
in the air. Right, do we think this might be
the start? I mean, we're getting into three months ago,
you know what I mean, these layoffs started. Do you
(07:30):
think we're starting to see some layoffs and you know,
these splintering kind of industry you know what I mean,
all these people that work directly on the sets are
obviously affected. But other agencies and other places, do we
think we're seeing other kind of splintering happening here?
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Yeah, I mean, I don't know in terms of like
the other agencies and stuff like that. Maybe it's a
bit more under the table than it is at CIA currently,
but I don't know. I have a hard time thinking
that w ME is gonna like pull the same stuff,
mostly because they're so rooted in visual entertainment. At w
(08:11):
it's like not just music entertainment. Their their focus is
entertainment in general, and I think it would almost have
like a worse Look, there's more eyeballs on w E specifically.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
By the way, Sorry, I have to interrupt. Do me
a favor, Yes, look up WME on Google and then
open their website and look at the Look look at
the website. If you're listening to this, do the same thing.
I want your honest reaction to this website.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
For w ME feature brands virtual reality.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
So there's like a spider web on their website. It's like,
I'm sorry, I don't mean to derail the whole conversation,
but I needed someone else to see this. It's like
this website is atrocious. Oh my god, what is going on?
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Our story? Our story. WME makes people work in the
mailroom even if they have a lot degree and then breaks.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
That's an old thing here in town. Anyway, what I
was saying was, if you if you haven't looked at
WME's website, which we'll go back to the main story,
but WM's website there is like if you look at
WME agency dot Com, it's the first thing that comes
up on Google if you search w ME, this spider
web of like different kind of you know, things they
(09:35):
represent comes up and they're all connected. And so it's
like funny because I get what they're saying, and this
will weed back into our conversation here. But like, you know,
all of these industries are related. But what's really funny
about the spider web is like they they're only connected
in like one of two ways. Right, So for some
reason music is connected to theater, books and television and
(09:57):
nothing else. Yeah, oh books, you're thinking music. Yeah, anyway,
I mean, and some agents are gonna go yeah, there's
big book deals out there anyway. But the point is
is that I was going to go into was this
kind of splintering. That's happening right here is that some
of these music business agencies, right, I mean, and a
(10:19):
lot of these agencies that we would consider primarily in
the music business, ones that we talked about on the show,
have considerable investments and also connections into Hollywood specifically, right,
and you are listening to one of the biggest, which
is agencies agencies have. You know, they're primarily rooted a
(10:41):
lot of the time in Hollywood, you know what I mean,
Like this is their bread and butter. So it's interesting
to see from a music perspective because we're so used
to hearing them from you know ours that hey we're
booking the store, Hey we're doing this, you know the
mail room, all that kind of stories that we grew
up in Nashville having. But like, it's, uh, it gonna
be a big deal here because these are the first
(11:03):
line of you know, music related companies that would be
immediately affected by these strikes. Right. So that's why I
personally think this may be the start of also, you know,
music business being massively effective from these strikes because of
the importance of music in general, which we're already seeing
(11:24):
on the creator side being effective because you know, if
you have a song to pitch to a studio, they're
not making shows right now, so you can't really do it.
But here's the other part. We're going into more big business,
such as the agencies that have huge connections into Hollywood.
But I think it's other than the satrocious website. This
(11:45):
is actually a pretty good example of going like this
diversification of income that we you know, sometimes in music
find ourselves being a little bit too ancillar with these
giant corporations because a lot of them are giant corporations
for a reason, because they have a diversity of income
from many different places. But Joe, what are your overall
(12:08):
thoughts on this do we think do we think we
should batten down the hatches, we should be prepared for
other parts of the music industry that will, you know,
be affected by this day to day.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
I don't know if necessitary. Like I think the biggest
thing being impacted from the music industry directly is probably
still the sync part of the industry. But do you
think that when it comes to how this is being
handled personally, I think that this is pretty abysmal of
(12:46):
CAAA to do, especially they're just like, oh, you know what,
we can save a few extra bucks and just put
these people out of jobs and then we'll just like
resign new people when the industry comes back. And I
just personally, I think it's kind of ridiculous to assume that,
(13:07):
like even if they're just assuming that like writers will
no longer exist at the end of that, I think
it's it's pretty ridiculous to assume that. In general.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
It's interesting too because like agencies are the most splintering,
one of the most splintered cells of the entire industry.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Right, Yeah, I mean I don't really get it. More
more so because a lot of these agents are making
money from their I guess they have a salary tacked
on with like commission, but it's not like their salary
is like insane a lot of the time, unless you're
like a top level agency or agent, like you're not
(13:49):
You're not getting like six figures, you know, for the
most part. And so it's like, I don't know, it
just personally leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I
think CAA really is doing a disservice to the entertainment
industry by doing this, and a disservice to these people
(14:12):
and kind of showing where they stand honestly in the
picket line when it comes down to it to something.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
It's interesting too because like CIA and WM and a
lot of these agencies compare. I mean, they have giant
corporate connections in the same way that like promoters do.
We've talked about how lad Nation kind of has a
splintering effect. I would even say agencies have a more
splintering effect in the terms of that these strong powers
are made of of these individual agents, their skill sets,
(14:41):
to their relationships and who they know right and thankfully
for maybe these sixty people, it is kind of amazing,
like every three seconds, especially like when the pandemic like
first was you know, coming out, you know, and all
these layoffs happen with CAA and WME and a lot
of these other bigger agencies. It's like it's kind of
(15:02):
insane to watch. But there's so many if you like
go through Billboard, you go through music business worldwide, there's
so many where it's like two or three CAA agents
have decided to start their own agency, right, And that's
where it's a little bit deadly as a corporation, and
even more so than maybe the giant COG that is
(15:23):
a label, right, or even a publishing house right. Because
of these agents and their personal kind of for lack
of a better term, they're almost like less of a country.
They're more of a like a confederacy, you know, made
up of small parts, right, And it's kind of amazing
to watch and see them lay off these employees because,
(15:44):
to be honest, a lot of them will just go
off on their own, you know what I mean, if
they're dissatisfied, they'll just leave, you know what I mean,
a lot of them will. And it's kind of bread
into that agency culture, especially from the agencies I know.
So it's it's very like they're saying WM is not
doing this. Other agencies are not doing this, which is
(16:05):
why it's kind of like you're saying, they're drawing their
own line in the sand. It's their particular take on
the situation, which seems to be irregular in the industry. Now,
hopefully six to seven months from now, they are, you know,
they go, this was the move at the time. Everybody
else should have followed us, but currently none of their
(16:28):
other people are following, if that makes sense, So we'll
have to see from there. I think the agencies are
probably one of the first of the other than the
creators themselves that will be impacted by the impacts of
the Hollywood ongoing strikes. So we'll just leave it at
(16:51):
there because I want to give as much time as
I can to Joe's story. So Joe take it away.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Thank you. Well, I think it's about time that we
talk about.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Lizzo Rizzo from Manhattan.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Yes, Rizzo, our favorite musician. No Lizzo. By now, you've
probably heard of the Lizzo drama, which is that three
former tour dancers came out and filed a lawsuit against
the mega huge pop singer, accusing her of creating a
(17:30):
toxic work environment, body shaming, and sexual harassment, and since
the initial lawsuit was presented, six more former employees have
also filed complaints. The allegations include discussions that dance leader
Quiggly is her last name, spoke about her religious views
(17:52):
as a Christian, and, as Vox puts it, quote berated
those who didn't share these beliefs. The law suit also
claims that one dancer's virginity was talked about extensively without
her consent, and that the dancers were pressured into participating
in a group Christian prayer, which I'm assuming like the prayer.
(18:15):
I don't know what they're talking about, but maybe it
might be like a lot of the times before you
go on stage, you have like a pre show ritual frame,
like a little power of times, Yeah, a little pow
wow with like the whole crew and stuff like that.
I'm wondering if that's what's going on.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
If you ever played like sports in the South, it's
very I would imagine it's very similar to that, where
it's like, boys, we're gonna take up a little prayer
real quick. Everybody get down on her knee, thank you,
you know, and then they do that that that might
be what they're talking about, but we don't know the
entire thing. It may be more elaborate than that, you
know what I mean. But that's what I imagine it
would be.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Yeah. Same. But also in the lawsuit are allegations that
state that Lizzo expressed concern over a dancer's weight gain,
making the dancer feel self conscious, as well as surprising
dancers who are already hired to have a pop quiz
(19:14):
like audition to keep their spots, in which the dancer
in question soiled herself out of fear that she would
lose her spot if she went to the bathroom. And
I think Vox does a great job explaining why, in particular,
this lawsuit is so important, they say, quote. The lawsuit
(19:35):
underscores the poor working conditions in the music industry and
the lack of accountability that exists for such abuses. Long hours,
difficult physical labor, and short term contracts are common, while
institutional oversight of individual artists isn't always present. Other artists,
(19:55):
including Share in Britney Spears, have been sued by their
employees in the past for alleged discrimination and battery, respectively.
For example, Shar's case was dismissed and Spears settled her
case and they continued stating quote. The lawsuit has felt
more surprising to some fans given the public positions Lizzo
(20:17):
has taken on promoting women's empowerment and celebrating plus sized bodies.
Aspects of the lawsuits, such as the alleged statements concerning weight,
appear to directly contradict those stances. Other developments have brought
attention to the case as well, including Beyonce's decision not
to mention mention Lizzo's name while singing a song that
(20:40):
references her in a recent concert, which I'd actually interject
here Beyonce recently as of like yesterday, I think yeah,
did actually mention her again.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
I was about to mention that she like screamed like
I love you Lizzo in Atlena show.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
She did, but she also did, like I think, like
her team did take down like a remix or something
that she had with Lizzo from DSPs or something. I
don't know if a was like a temporary takedown or what,
but definitely, like Beyonce's camp for a while, there was
like just trying to figure it out, and for some fans,
(21:17):
as Vox continues, lyrics and Lizo's song rumors have taken
on a different tenor in the wake of the lawsuit.
In that song, she refers to people trying to sue her,
mentions non disclosure agreements, and sings about not caring about
legal matters. The suit is also renewing discussions among pop
(21:38):
culture observers online about the need for stars to be
held responsible for bad behavior and the disparities that continue
to exist on that front. Like anyone fielding such allegations,
Lizzo should face the legal process and potential consequences for
any harm that she's caused, but she's also likely to
get more blowback for such a lawsuit than would a
(22:00):
white male star like Brad Pitt or Johnny Depp, both
of whom had fielded allegations of abuse and denied them
due to sexism, racism, in fat phobia she has to
deal with. And then I'd also like to stay like
in the court of public opinion, a lot of former
fans are finding it very hard to defend her as
(22:21):
she has selected celebrity lawyer Martin Singer who represented Bill Cosby,
Charlie Sheen, John Travolta, Jim Carrey, Kim Kardashians, and so
many more celebrities who are viewed as abusive in the industry.
And so yeah, there's a lot of layers to this situation.
(22:43):
I think, like one of the things I want to
just point out, I think we wanted to wait before
discussing this, mostly because there was so much that was
coming out still in the press of just like what
was going on. But Colin, what are you thought? Like,
I have a couple of questions, Like, first off, there's
(23:04):
there's like this narrative, right that Lizzo is being almost
like attacked by the press. What is your take on
that situation.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
I mean to say that because of the way that
Lizzo is perceived by our society and everything that, you know,
these claims aren't even made bigger or even worse, have
some hyperbole to them. Would be insensitive to say that
that doesn't exist because you know, the color of Lizo's skin,
(23:37):
being a woman, and also dealing with fat phobia like
Wizzo will deal with as you know, what was a
variety or vox just said, uh, or vox just said
she will deal with astronomically more hard criticism than someone
that does not look like her right at the end
(23:59):
of the day, like in terms of media coverage, just
straight up, So we have to keep that in mind.
But also I do think that a lot of outlets
have latched onto the story just because of the almost
irony that these claims have. Right, is that Lizo, for
(24:22):
a lot of people and in her branding represents you know,
this body positive kind of ideals and movement. So to
hear claims that she was supposedly doing the opposite of
that is very you know, almost story esque, right. It
blows the story into like something that seems very interesting
(24:44):
to a bunch of outside people, right, because it's the
opposite of her branding and everything. It is like a
one eighty from everything that a lot of Lizo fans
would say she stands for. Right. So I think there's
a combination of two things going on. Just the one
a heediness of the allegations at the end of the
day compared to her branding are blowing this story out
(25:05):
of proportion, while also the systemic problems that she deals
with in her entire career right of sexism, racism, in
fat phobia. So I think that there is you know,
a level where you could go and say, hey, these
are blown out of proportion, and the level of severity
in certain ways that this is presented is higher because
(25:27):
of sexism, racism, in fatphobia. But at the same time,
the irony that's probably the best word of how different
this is from her branding due to the allegations that
are against her, are what blows this story into something
that seems intensely interesting to let's say, like a kind
(25:47):
of what it reminds me of, like a tabloid you
know what I mean being like having some ridiculous thing,
but this is a real lawsuit. These are real people
that claim they've been abused. It's it's almost picturesque in
that way that this story has come up. So I
think that's what's really grabbed people's attention about it. At
the end of the day, Joe, what do you think?
(26:08):
Let me, what do you think about this coverage? How
do you how do you feel about its portrayal of
Lizzo in the situation and do you think it is
more blown over?
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Yeah, I mean I think that it is. It is.
I think it's true that she's fighting a much bigger
uphill battle than I think a straight white like dude
would be fighting, you know. And and to be honest,
(26:39):
I think in a lot of cases people almost view
most stars is like difficult to work with, tough cookies
for lack of a better term, and as horrible as
I think that that outlook is, I think it's pretty
pervasive in public knowledge and so like to have this
(27:01):
kind of like one eighty effect is a bit it's
a bit interesting to see. I don't At the same time,
I'm of the personal belief of I do not think
that superstars or artists get to have a pass for
(27:22):
being horrible people. I just don't agree with that. I
think that opening up about these abuses and talking about
these things openly is very, very important, and unfortunately, the
entertainment industry breeds a lot of really horrible, egotistical personalities
(27:45):
to be honest and kind of just perpetually enables these
people to be horrible in some regards, because nobody wants
to be the person that's like the whistleblower. Yeah, in
a lot of these cases, because like here's the thing,
Like these these people coming out about Lizzo are dealing
(28:09):
with a lot, right They're on one hand, they're getting
a lot of fame right now, they're getting fifteen I
would like to stay also, fifteen minutes of fame by
the time this is all over, I don't think people
will to be honest remember them.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
I haven't even heard the I haven't even heard the accusers' names. Yeah, Like,
you know, if you think this is a fame grab,
like I've I've read multiple articles and none of them
say this is a person's name, you know what I mean? Like,
so you think, like it's definitely it's definitely not like
(28:46):
they're going to gain like some giant notoriety straight away
from this, even if you think that that was the intention.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yeah, it was. What's interesting is like there's another level
of it to where the main three have actually been
doing like TV interviews and stuff like that and like
have been named, have shown their face. But yes, the
level of notoriety is very, very different to where it's
(29:19):
not going to be like they have Lizo fame at
the end of this right where it's like they're regarded
as amazing people and in a lot of cases in
a whistleblower environment, you're actually very threatened. Especially I'm sure
that they are getting a lot of threats, a lot
of death threats, a lot of negative attention that nobody
(29:45):
wants at the end of the day.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
And I'm sure there's people that believe that because the
claims are so counter to her branding, that there's no
way it could be true.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Yeah, there is a big there's a big belief of
that for sure. But I also, you know, I think
that it's very telling if other people are also stepping
out of the woodwork to kind of say that they
(30:16):
experienced very similar things. I mean, six other people have
come out to say that they have also dealt with horrible.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
A total of nine people.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Yeah, and they're jumping on the lawsuit as well. Part
of that, Like people could view that as like, oh, well,
now they're seeing it's getting like public opinion traction, and
so now they're choosing to jump on. But at the
end of the day, you know, like imagine, like you
had an abuse, you were in an abusive situation with
a pop star, and you were one of three at
(30:50):
the time of like lawyers, of you consulting lawyers, the
chances of your case actually like getting anywhere is very small,
And so with the amount of media attention and crowd
attention that this is bringing, it is kind of shifting
the perspective of I think these whistleblowers to come out
(31:12):
and give their stories. Ultimately they feel more confident being
able to to tell their story and feel confident being
heard because it is it's very nerve wracking, especially if
like celebrities are very loved their celebrities for a reason, right,
(31:33):
they're loved by people by a massive amount of people.
And if you counter that narrative with your own experience,
and if it's a negative experience, then that is it's
it's very nerve wracking. It's very hard to like come
forward and talk about it, you know.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
God yeah, And that's kind of the thing is like, again,
the level of these claims should not be underestimated. Nine
people are making this claim as well, you know, are
getting onto this to talk about this, and it needs
to at least be examined in a court of law,
you know, at least. And I think, like, like I
(32:18):
was saying, it's just these these people are very much
in an uphill battle throwing down money on the table
to say, hey, we've been abused and we deserve some compensation,
compensation from that for from Lizo. With at the end
of the day, what's so damaging about this for Lizo
(32:39):
other than obviously punitive damages that could come up from
these you know, lawsuits, It's just that it is it
is a you know, nail in the coffin to her branding,
Like it is so contrary to what has made Lizzo
(33:00):
into the public eye. I mean, it's a great singer,
great performer and stuff like that, but the entire message
of Lizzo thrown in that package together cannot be understated.
And the importance of how much that connected to people
around the world cannot be understated.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Right.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
She came onto the scene in a very outlier situation
where she said, Hello, I know I don't look like
the status quo. You guys should believe in me because
I believe in you. We are body positive. I don't
care what you look like. We are in it together
and that connective with people around the world. And this
is the nail in the coffin that says the contrary
(33:37):
is that Lizzo does not fall behind this branding so
and you can see it in all these songs, so
you know, like that she puts out that are all
about feeling yourself, feeling good, no matter the circumstance, no
matter who you are, and Lizo, through her alleged actions,
could be proven in a court of law to go
no in real life, you are even part of this
(34:00):
system that oppresses everyone, including yourself. So it's I think
really that's at the heart of it. Why it's such
a monumental issue for Lizo as well as why it's
caught media attention is because of the contrary. Again, I
(34:22):
do think that like Vox has put a various two
point here, which is that it it quote underscores the
poor working conditions in the music industry, the lack of
accountability that exists for such abuses. Long hours, typical physical labor,
and short term contracts are common. So like that that's
a perfect thing. Is that at the end of the day,
(34:44):
some of these issues are even exacerbated by the working
conditions that these people work in and the non affirming
and also just you know, there's no hr right like that,
you know what I mean, Like this almost non corporate
(35:04):
structure to a corporate being right that it's all lacks
a daisical that it is you know, not a business
relationship going on. You're all part of this team. It
can be very toxic and I've seen it myself, and
so I think that it is a very important one
that hopefully other than the situation at Bay and Lizo,
(35:27):
in a situation that could be found to be contrary
to our branding. I think that is one of the
biggest takeaways here is that this is not a unique
scenario and is also exacerbated by the conditions that are here,
right and either way, like you could think of it
as if you think one way about the lawsuit, if
(35:50):
you think, oh I lizo may have caused this. If
you believe that that's what actually happened, it may be
not excusing her, but it may be exacerbated by the
fact that there's this lacks a daisical team attitude, family
attitude that made someone feel like they were entitled enough
to create an abusive situation. You may also say the
(36:10):
opposite is that if you're you don't think that this
is true, or the dancers aren't with it, and maybe
because they're just dead tired and can't read a scenario
that's happening, you know, in real life. So it's just
like nothing good will come out of this work environment, right,
even it's so hard to get black and white out
of this situation because of the situation that is created
(36:33):
by the lifestyle of these individuals. Right, And it's not
their fault, it's the actual structure of the work.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Right.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
If they have to feel like this poor person that
alleges that they soil themselves out of fear that is
probably exacerbated by short term contracts that they are not,
you know, entitled to be there longer than they need
to be. They feel like they're expended, Right, That just
really hits it home that.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
And I mean the the innate pressure of dealing with
an arena tour, right yeah, and like you're there, there
is a thing of like, oh, you should be so
happy that you're touring with ex artists, right, Like, you're
getting so much opportunity touring with X artists. But then
it's it's like, well, it's there's only so much that
(37:27):
can get you.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
You're getting so much opportunity, and I can't find articles
with their names, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Yeah, exactly, you're getting so much opportunity to not get credited, right,
to not get paid well.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
To be a large cog in this machine, and your
job is to not be the squeaky wheel, you know
what I mean. So, I again, I think, either way
you think about this lawsuit, these working conditions and the
way and the environment of them exacerbate these situations to
exit is what I'm saying, Either way to create If
(38:04):
you think it's such a frivolous lawsuit, then it creates
more frivolous lawsuits. If you think this is you know,
a situation where these people are rightfully, you know, justified
in their opinion of what happened on tour, then it's
also creates that it's both ways, you know what I mean.
And so I think that in the lack of the
(38:25):
best terms is Vox puts it, institutional oversight needs to
be present right and from a factor. And this is
the best part is it's multiple institutions. That's that's the problem.
It's not just like, oh, it's just the artists. It's like,
oh no, it's also the promoter. It's also the audience expectation.
(38:47):
It's also you know, like there's a lot of things
that have to change for situations like this to be
more outliers and not common and not literally like Joe
has shown a list of people we can just ledge
right out and go, oh yeah, this happened to ten
other people, you know what I mean. God, do Joe
any final thoughts on this?
Speaker 2 (39:09):
No, I think like ultimately, I think ultimately we're just
gonna have to see what happens with this lawsuit. It
doesn't seem to be stopping anytime soon. It only seems
to be ramping up, as I mean daily, Lizo is
losing followers and streams, and so it's kind of it
(39:32):
is definitely taking like Lizo is taking a hit, like
with her reputation with her fan base, and I'm wondering
if there's gonna be almost like a countersuit of defamation
coming along the corner.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
From Liz's camp.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Yeah, Like I'm wondering if that's gonna like a countersuit.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Well, I mean literally, if you look up Lizzo on
Instagram right now, the first thing is, uh, Lizzo lawsuit
popular That's what comes up. Yeah, so it's.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
Not going if you type your name into Google, it's
just all articles.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
About it, right, And like, unlike a lot of other
lawsuits that we've talked about where it feels like, oh,
it's just a you know, a chip in the armor,
and they're still moving along, it feels like there are
some real consequences happening, Like you're saying on the social
media front, I know that they were supposed to do it.
(40:29):
Lizzo was supposed to front that Made in America festival
that was canceled, and people alleged that maybe she was
part of the reason that it was canceled. So it's
like I think we're seeing not necessarily, Oh, this is
just a chip in the armor. We're moving on. It's like, no,
the gash is getting bigger, Like more people are getting
(40:52):
eyes on this and more people are going to follow
it through this judicial system. So we're gonna see what happens.
It wouldn't surprise me if Lizo's team does not try
their best to find some way immediately to basically pay
these people off, Like it would not surprise me that
(41:13):
if they're throwing out, you know, oodles of money going
do not keep suing us Here's like oodles of money
and I and we'll have to see, you know, some
it depends on how they the accusers want will go.
You know, if they're if they think that they're justified
just with money and that's what they want, then they
might take it. If they want to, you know, really
(41:37):
bury the hatchet here and just take the money and
walk away, that's an option. But if they want to
really examine this and drag Lizo through it, they've started
the process and there's nothing stopping them right now. So
we'll have to see what happens. Like you said, I
think that this is just going to get worse for Lizo.
(41:58):
That is, like this is just gonna blow up even more.
We're going to see this followed even more just from
these pre discussions that are even happening on these you know,
different publications. It's intrigued everyone. And then again, I sincerely
think it's because it's contrary completely to her brainding. So
(42:19):
we'll see unless unless they throw a hail Mary and
they go here's a couple million dollars right, go away forever,
which is sadly, I think.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
Yeah, it's it's it's definitely disappointing, Like it's a disappointing situation.
I I I'm want, I'm I'm very curious to see
what happens in the lawsuit, right and see what comes
out of it, because as a very substantial evidence, then yeah,
(42:56):
I mean it's very hard, as from like Liz's side,
to come back from this. Right, it's so polar opposite
of her brand.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
And that's what we call brand death at the end
of the day. Like, if you have this kind of
sheer opposite to what you say as a as a
person or a company you stand for. If you have
a sheer shining example that legally gets proven in a
court of law that these people were right, oh my god,
(43:28):
you know what I mean, there's not much that they
can do to recover from that unless they have, you know,
the smaller amount of people and like, I'm sure people go,
Lizo will be all right, and I was like, that's fine,
you know, I'm sure that they will be no matter
what you think of the situation. But at the end
of the day, this is like, this is stopping Lizzo
(43:50):
from you know, keeping exploding. Right, this will be held
against her for the rest of her career, just the allegation,
not even before it's you know, proven in a qud
awa or not proven in a quart a while, right,
this will follow her for the rest of her career.
This is the kind of stuff that people will you know,
the hey, did you hear the new Lizo song? And
somebody will go, no, I don't listen to her because
(44:12):
she's contrary to all our beliefs. So that's that, that's
the level of controversy we're dealing with, folks. And we'll
just like you said, I have to.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
See, what's some fire tracks you've been listening to?
Speaker 3 (44:28):
You?
Speaker 1 (44:30):
Oh god, let me pull up my YouTube music boo.
Let's see. I bought it. I bought a CD as
I uh was talking about the other day, which was
a Prince's second album, because I use that I Want
to Be Your Lover song as my pa chech song
if you want to know what I used to test equipment.
(44:50):
But Fanfare for the Common Man Aaron Copewen is the
original classical composer who made this song. But and what
I like is the Emerson Lincoln Palmer version, which is
a very long progue. You know, Everson, Lake and Palmer
is a nineteen seventies trio rock group that is one
(45:12):
of those that you go, yeah, this is prague. You know,
everybody likes to be weird with that term and go, no,
this is It's one of those where you go, yeah,
this is progue. It's Emerson, Emerson, Lake and Palmer. Yeah,
this is prague. It's yes, but Emerson, Lake and Palmer,
like do this classical piece. It's got no words to it.
I know you've heard this song because literally I was
(45:33):
sitting at work blaring this song from my desk and
one of my coworkers comes up to me and they go, uh,
why do I know this song? And Uh? I was like,
do you know the original Fanfare for the Common Man
by Aaron Culplan And she's like, I think I've heard
this in a bunch of like movies and TV, and
I'm like, you probably have. Well, this is a reimagining
(45:53):
of that classical piece. So it was very revolutionary at
the time just because of the like technology with the
synths and everything. And it's just a trio of three guys,
which is kind of amazing, and it's like, once you
start listening to it, it's you kind of have to
put yourself in the reference point a thinking back then
and going, Wow, this three guys is doing an interpretation
(46:18):
of an entire classical piece that would take literally like
tens of people to do, which I think is really cool.
Once you start listening to it and you go, oh,
it's one guy playing all the keyboards. Oh, it's one
guy playing bass, and it's one guy playing the drums,
and it's just weird because it feels like a technological
stepping stone for kind of how people imagine what synthesizers
(46:38):
could be used for. Anyway, was that the nerdiest freaking
thing I could say on this show? Probably? But Joe,
what have you been listening to?
Speaker 2 (46:45):
Hell? Yeah, nerdy as fuck. It was awesome. I've been
listening to a song called Fame from a band called Deeper.
They're really sick. They're kind of like they're kind of
like the Districts, but like with an eighties twist, and
I don't know. The lead singer just has a very
distinct voice and it's very energetic, kind of harsher music,
(47:11):
but it's it's really really cool. A lot of the
songwriters very like it kind of sucks you in. And
then listening to that new McGhee tracks how Many Miles,
which is amazing, and then I've been obsessed with Big Thief.
You're listening to a lot of Big Thief this week.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
I don't know why, but when you said how many miles,
I want to be like so many, so.
Speaker 4 (47:34):
Many, ten thousand miles and that it's just a remix
of that Oh God, And but the remix is just
him going how many miles and then he's like ten thousand.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
And it's just like that mixed poorly. It's like so
loud you have to like turn it up and then.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
Turn it down, you know, and ha, I will walk that.
That's like the beat drop right there.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
Uh well, we'll see you on the next beat drop
with this mic drop.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
That was criminal. Guys, thanks for listening to the biz tape.
You're all Things, Music, Business and Media podcast, we sure
do appreciate it. If you want to follow us at
the biz tape, pretty much everywhere that does is a
big favor as well. Let's rate us good, bad, ugly,
whatever you want to do. Clint Eastwood and all help
us out by rating the show, show it to a friend, whatever,
as always, guys though, at the end of the day,
(48:35):
thank you, thank you so much for listening, and we
hope to see you next time.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.