September 20, 2023 • 58 mins
The Third to Last Episode:Spotify and Rolling Stone start controversy…..
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Spotify's new revenue stream, promoting yourself on Spotify.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
And Rolling Stone's founder gets canceled. You're listening to the
biz Tape.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Welcome to the biz Tape. You're all Things Music, Business
and Media podcast. I don't know why I forgot that
one with my co host Coast to Coast Joseph Wazzeleski
joining us and myself live. Okay, let's just flip it.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Up live via discord Chat. We're really peeling back.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
I was gonna say, we're probably like somebody's like, oh god,
you know what I mean, because there's definitely people that
don't use Discord for like regular video games stuff, and
they only hear It's kind of like remember when the
news used to be like hacker four chan, you know
what I mean. Like that's what I'm sure somebody feels
that way about Discord where they're like, ah, it gives screens.
(01:05):
It's it's like, oh, there's some bad ship that goes down.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
But what I think is hilarious to like how it
pertains to the music industry is that, like, have you
just noticed Colin that every every single musicians like join
my Discord server.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
And I mean, I remember we talked about it a
while ago, and it was like it was rough, you
know what I mean, Like and people were trying their best,
and it's a it's a really cool like idea, but
it's just you gotta have super mega fans.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
I'm kind of like you should either go with the
newsletter or the discord, not both. It's kind of funny enough.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
The only people that I feel like it could really
work well for are like people that like our communities.
I cannot imagine using discord super heavy like super heavy
tailor Swift Discord, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Like, I mean, honestly, I think like Eler Swift would
have well, it would be insane just at all times.
But I do think that there's like some element of
like it could be like Tumblr vibes, you know, for
(02:18):
the Swifties.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Anyway, Well that sounds yeah, I was gonna say that
sounds awesome. Uh but yeah, all right, folks were nearing
the end, as some people can tell if you are
just listening to us, Sorry, we're gonna end soon. We
have two more episodes after this.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Yeah it's your fault too. I just want to really
really really could have stepped it up. It's your fault
that we're getting a divorce. It's I'm sorry, I'm losing
the house. Yeah, I'm losing my garage.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
It's a very weird split up, and it's weird we
have like two point five kids. I don't even know
how we get the point five separated. Yeah, but no, like, yeah,
seriously though, like it's been a really great run. Joe
and I probably get more into it in the last
episode because we're just gonna have a fun time in
the last episode. Again, if you listened to last week's
show where we broke the news, feel free give Joe
(03:19):
and I the hardest questions you possibly can ask somebody
about music industry media. It's one of these questions where
there's not really a real answer or something like that. Well,
we'll talk about it. I don't care. We deserve it
to you guys, you fans out there, So we're gonna
try our best anyway. Joe, I guess we're just gonna
(03:40):
get right into it with our continued best of the
news and what's going on with music business. I was
wondering who wanted to start, because I didn't know what
your story was.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
I feel like I'll start this this time it's a
it's a it's about our favorite thing in the music industry,
which is award shows. But this is an award hall.
Can you guess which which haul? It is?
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Rock and roll hall?
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yeah, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
I think I know where you're going with that, but
I'm interested to see where you're going.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
So if you're wondering why the Rock and Roll Hall
of Fame is feeling dated and has been feeling dated
for a while, it may come as no surprise that
it's run by old men. In one of these old
men is a man called Jane Wiener, who is h
(04:36):
He's one of the founders of Rolling Stone magazine.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Stone one of the I was wondering if you were
going to bring this up still, it's.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Such a it's such a can of worms, man, it is.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Such a like literally, I was like, I cannot believe
this is real.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
So this story, yeah, okay, So basically, Jane Winner, he
basically founded Rolling Stone. It got bought out by this
mega company that also owns Billboard, which is uh it
is called Pinsk Pinske Media. It's a giants media conglomerate
(05:14):
that owns like a bunch of stuff, especially with like
written news outlets that are online. So he retired, but
he took over the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame
Foundation as he was the head of it for a while. However,
(05:35):
jan might not have any kind of pr representative currently
because he.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Made at so much experience.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
He made a very extreme blunder for someone who's been
working in news media his entire life. But he was
promoting his new book called The Masters, which is a
book consisting of interviews with the likes of Bono are
Favorite Bono, Bob Dylan, Jerry Garcia, Mick Jagger, John Lennon,
(06:05):
and Pete Townshend during his time at Rolling Stone. So
it's basically a collection of all of these interviews that
he's done. However, during this New York Times piece that
was written about Werner during the like during his like
press outreach right of promoting the book, he basically said
(06:29):
some things that were pretty I would say racist and
pretty boomerish as he he essentially said that, uh, he
said that the question was posed, it's very crazy.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
The question was posed, canceled why.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Why he wasn't including any black musicians and women, And
he basically said in his statement that he didn't feel
that they were articulate enough in the interviews, is what
(07:18):
he said. And here I'll read exactly exactly what he
said in this New York Times article. He said. Warner
notes that in his introduction that neither are in his
zeit guys, referring to black musicians and female musicians. Quote.
(07:40):
When I was referring to the zeitgeist, I was referring
to black performers, not to the female performers. Okay, just
to get that accurate, Werner told the Times article writer
David Murches, quote, the people had to meet a couple
of criteria, but it was just kind of my personal
(08:00):
interest and love of them. In so far as the women,
just none of them were articulate enough on this intellectual level.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
He said, so on about the way if we're starting
any of them, he's saying the women.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
He said, so far as the women, and he's basically,
I mean, he's being like a snobbish asshole. First off,
he's he's he's sounding like he's he's sounding like he
feels like he's the smartest dude ever saying the ship
and it's so horrible, but he speaking on black artist
(08:40):
billboard continues, Werner said, you know what, Stevie Wonder genius. Right.
I suppose when you use the use the word as
broad as masters, the fault is using that word maybe
Marvin Gay or Curtis Mayfield. I mean they just didn't
articulate at that level. Yeah, So these are like he
(09:02):
just he funneled these people out on purpose, He's like
fully admitting, and it's because of it's it's seemingly because
of a very racist point of view.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
I literally this guy is like, like clearly has a
lot of problems of how he views society. Clearly, you know,
it's very easy to throw out potentially you know, some
comments of you know, just like I can literally this
is some of the most optically bad stuff I've always
(09:38):
seen ever. First off, can we I have to mention
an all white, all male book that's titled Masters.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Yeah, it's are you fucking kidding? Like horrible on every level.
I'm sure those artists are thrilled that got looped into
that h but just as so everywhere everyone understands like
how high up Wiener is. He helped found the Rock
(10:09):
and Roll Hall of Fame in nineteen eighty three with
Atlantic Records founder and chairman Ahmut Erdigan as well as
record executives seymour Stein, Bob kr kranz Now and Noreene Woods,
and attorneys Alan Grubman and Susan Evans, which are these
are all like ginormous names in the world of music
(10:32):
and legendary names. And he's been kind of up the
ranks for a very very long time. And I'm sure
he's made a ton of money from that sale of
Rolling Stone as well, so there's a level of he
he has a lot of power and influence, which begs
(10:53):
the question how long has he been this much of
a dumb dumb honestly.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
No, I mean like and realistically, like, yeah, this guy
has contributed. You know, Rolling Stone at the time was
one of the.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
It was like culture work. Yeah, it was like the
Pitchfork of the time of like it it established people's
tastes in music and had so much.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Sense and it still does to a degree. It's it's
a very institutional piece of you know, like media and
like the amount of writers that he also established into that.
I mean, like the term like music journalism in its
way that it's become really has come through Rolling Stone,
So that cannot be understated. But like, like you're saying
(11:45):
in terms of when we're talking about the fully you know,
formed person that was at the helm of Rolling Stone,
it really begs the question that the person that is
giving these comments, does rolling Stone have you know in
its history that it denied people based on that they
were articulate enough, you know what I mean. And it
(12:08):
might have just been disguised misogyny or racism, you know
what I mean. And I've heard echoes of this before,
but these are very damning comments.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
So tone deaf on every level, and it's it's shocking,
especially coming from someone who's worked in media and should
have a very like it should have a high understanding
of like what the like where media as is at currently,
But goes to show that people don't keep up with
(12:40):
things in a lot of in a lot of ways,
especially when you have exactly and and he thought I
think he thought he wasn't invincible. But he has since
been moved removed from the board of directors at the
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, pretty much being lambasted
(13:03):
by fellow board member like Rob Light who is the
head of Creative Artists Agency, and according to a source
from Billboard Music, manager John Laddau was Landau was the
only person to cast no in the vote against jam
(13:27):
pretty much, so he was from one single vote minus
that unanimously voted out from the whole board room, and
the only statement that was put out was Jane Wiener
has been removed from the Board of Directors of the
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Foundation. And there have
(13:47):
been no comments after requests from Billboard and pretty much
everywhere else. But it just, man, he really just sided.
Let's just I've had a good career in the foot
I was just my career, h and kill it.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
It's just a question my entire magazine's legacy up here,
and like the places that it has gone and the
people it is, like, literally I I cannot like when
I first heard about this, honestly, it was so insane
that I like forgot about it because it was just
so crazy that I was like, what is going on here?
(14:33):
So I'm really glad you brought it back, because honestly,
I would have forgot about it right now. But like
when you really like it's kind of insane, just like
the poeticness of the story, you know what I mean,
Just like how like there's so many inert like stereotypes
being in here, like especially especially calling black musicians who
have been levied this criticism many times as being not articulate,
(14:57):
which is just false, you know what I mean. And
like there's just so many things that are like you're
just playing into historic stereotypes here, right, Like I mean
a lot of.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
The times, it's so racist on so many levels that
it really does it like begs the question like how
how much of this is like still in the industry,
Like how much of these old people who think this
way still run the industry in certain departments, you know,
(15:29):
and like how much power do these people have?
Speaker 1 (15:32):
And then like we got to hit on the female
musicians too, quote as articulate enough on their on this
intellectual level as these men. That's basically what he says.
Other than as the men he says, quote as articulate
enough on this intellectual level. Oh my god, are you
kidding me? Like if you there, there's so many like
(15:53):
he names a bunch of people that I would actually
argue are very articulate, like a Gray Slick or a
Janis Joplin, and specifically a Joni Mitchell, Like you know
what I mean, Like it's kind of you know, it's
one thing. It's one thing that like, let's say, if
he decided to go, like, hey, I uh, just pick
(16:15):
these people, like he opened this up by himself, right
like there was nobody like he really dawn at him,
Like he could have said, hey, we picked three hundred
we picked three undred and sixty eight pages, which is
a rather long book of interviews with musicians, and we
just couldn't keep going. Maybe we'll do it in a
(16:36):
second one and it wouldn't have been a controverty you
know what I mean, Like, are you like he literally
could have just edited at that. I'm sure the criticism
of not having the diversity there, it's given the rock
and Roll's history still stands.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
But he just.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Decided to light the match to this entire thing for
no reason. So it almost feels like given that, like
you're saying, Joe, all of this media's experienced that he has.
I mean, this guy has launched and helped do presidential
level interviews of presidential people that became president, you know,
and you know notably were quoted as being you know,
(17:12):
things that help people win the campaign. This is not
a guy that like does things just because he's doing
this on purpose, you know, he's doing this to show
this viewpoint that he has. Yeah that apparently, you know,
black artists and women are not articulate enough about rock
(17:33):
and roll music in general. So I feel like it's like,
you know, there is a level of there's so much
ignorance here that he's just showing the ignorance. But it's
almost like he's trying to boast the ignorance, you know
what I mean.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Right, Yeah, he's just like he's so out of touch
with reality that it's like to him, he's just like,
oh yeah, this is like like you don't feel this way,
like this is normal. And it's also besic Rushoul. Who
are these other people that he's hanging out with that also.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Well the fun mat fact get literally I'm getting thing
articles that are related to this that are like, women
make up less than eight percent of Rock and Roll
Hall of Fame inductees. I wonder fucking why, you know
what I mean, if you started the goddamn thing and like,
to be honest, like, the one that also really gets
me on here other than Joni is Stevie Wonder, one
of the ironically one of the best you know you
(18:27):
guys who've been listening the show for a long time
have known that I'm a big nerd about like very
historic moments and music or like speeches or whatever. And
like one of the speeches that comes up in my
mind as a really well articulate and moving speech that
actually happened at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame
at his induction was Stevie Wonder, and like it literally
(18:52):
is about like his prejudice and the stuff that he's
dealt with, and just like the graciousness that he has
to eat and be there, and it's so moving. He
takes off his glasses during it, and you just look
like you just look right in his face the entire time,
and you can tell that he's just like giving himself
to the audience, being like, wow, I cannot believe that
(19:13):
I am here, you know what I mean. And it's
one of the most articulate speeches that I've ever heard.
I would literally look it up if I were you.
It's Stevie Wonder rock and Roll Hall of Fame speech,
and he's got his kids with him. It's like nineteen
eighty nine, and I literally it's like such a capstone
speech to the whole thing. So I just find it
(19:34):
ridiculous that someone would say, like he is not articulate,
he's insanely articulate.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Yeah, you know, I mean he's it's it's truly horrific,
and uh he deserves everything that's happening.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Yeah, it's there's nothing. You know, people who listen to
the show historically, no, I like to play Devil's advocate.
But it's like this guy's doing it on purpose. Like
this is not zero, this is not a miscommunication. This
is not like a oh, this is that a contact. No, Like,
this guy is has the training, has the knowledge, and
knows what the power of his position is. And so
(20:16):
it seems like he's trying to further that agenda more
than he is trying to, let's say, defend himself, you
know what I mean, he's trying to use his position
to you know, hammer in the point that he's trying
to make, which is you know, to be racism, misogynistic.
So I you know, it's really you know, out of
(20:38):
this world that this is. This is the guy that
you know, founded one of the biggest publications on earth
and now like has put an irremarkable you know, irremovable
like staying on the legacy of that publication, you know
what I mean. Yeah, Like, now this is going to
(20:59):
make people think about, you know, why did this person
never get covered? Why did this person get covered? You
know what I mean? And Rolling Stone shaped careers and
continues to shape careers. Right, So it's you know, one
thing if you feel like there are people that make
a mistake in that happens, but this just feels like
(21:19):
a willful moment to show in boast ignorance.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Yeah, God, it's truly. I was actually my mouth was
on the ground when I was like reading these statements.
It was just so it's so like unforgivably racist, and
just like it's it's just his his confidence in how
(21:48):
he's like responding to it and like how he like
explains it more like right he's like, oh yeah, well
of course I know everything. It's like that also level
of like this guy is like the stereotypical racist man
who thinks that he is the smartest person in the
(22:09):
world and he has a bunch of money, he had
a bunch of power, and that's scary and it's if anything,
it's like it shows how the music industry needs to change.
And also I think in some level how it has
changed but it wasn't that long ago though he was
(22:30):
still running Rolling Stone, you.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Know, I mean that. And I also think it's just
it just really shows. I mean, this guy was pivoted
as a champion of rock and roll publications bringing people
to the limelight, which I'm sure that he did some regard,
but it's like, you know, it's one of these things
(22:55):
where one step forward, two steps back in a lot
of ways where you feel like this is an I've
met these people in the industry that hide in plain sight,
you know what I mean. It's one of these things
where they hide in play I've gotten into as of late,
actually awkward conversations about things that are you know, just
(23:17):
human decency conversations, And I was like, oh my god,
I cannot believe I'm having this conversation right now, you
know what I mean. And I think this is an
example that like the music industry has problems with this
where it will enable these people due to their connections
and status, and so does life, but specifically the music industry,
due to its closed nick you know, kind of insider
(23:39):
crowd has to be on the hip side of everything attitude,
like these people are enabled to stay in here and
be hidden in plain sight, you know what I mean,
And so I just think, like, you know, if you
think that that is impossible, it is entire higherly possible
(24:00):
in the music industry to have this. I mean, this
is a prime example of this, This this entire time
where this guy you know, clearly had very very very
like hard and you know, misogynistic and racist theories about music,
but was also the face and head and leader and
(24:22):
also trail blazer of music publication.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Yeah, it's man, it's a bummer. It's a huge, huge bummer.
It's also just like on some level, like people have
to people have had to have interacted with him in
the past and been like this, this dude is racist, right,
(24:49):
and like just enabling him to continue because they're getting
something out of it is It's just it's tough. It's
really tough. But he is out of the rock and
roll Hall of Fame. Who knows if any of the
rest of that board is just as tone death. I
guess we'll see, because I'm sure they're going to be
(25:17):
on Colin, What is your story?
Speaker 1 (25:20):
All right, let's talk about this. So we've hit it
in the life of our show a lot. We've talked
about big tech and our show's cut to eat Spotify
and how they have been failing to profit and make
more money to generate revenue. Right, It's been a problem
since these companies were created, you know, all these tech
(25:41):
social media companies, streaming companies have always had this problem
where they cannot get enough revenue. But everybody said, growth, growth, growth, right.
I have said this so many times on the show
on a broken record. So many experts we're trying to basically,
you know, figure out what are we going to do,
and so we've talked a lot about the show. Also,
many experts, you know, have their theories that streaming maybe
(26:06):
coming to a plateau soon because there's not much more
exponential growth left. Like we've we have streaming around the world.
There's not a lot of different genres that have a
lot of room to grow, you know, So what are
we gonna do? You know what I mean? These companies
where you know, we can cut as many people as
we want to a point, but like at the end
of the day, it's like we do need to have
(26:26):
an operating budget and without making really really harsh cuts,
something's got to change. So like it felt like one
of those where it's like, oh my god, there's a
reckoning here unless we can figure out something. And I'm
arguing that Spotify may have a good idea here, but
at what costs? So let's talk about it. Like Spotify
(26:47):
has been known for monetizing consumers, right, so I you know,
it's kind of evident from this new tool that they're
showcasing pun intended Spotify may be turning to get money
from artists directly. Quote. Spotify has just launched Showcase, a
new paid for promo tool that lets artists and their
(27:07):
teams highlight new and catalog releases in app on the
platform's mobile home page. Mobile Home, according to Spotify, is
the most visited place on Spotify, and billions of streams
streams originated from every day. And I was about to
be like, of course it freaking is. Guess what happens
when you open the goddamn app. It's like Google being
(27:28):
like the Google search bar is the most used part
of Google. It'd be like no shit, sherlock anyway, According
to Spotify, over the next few weeks, artists and their
team with US base billing will be eligible to use
Showcase if they have at least one thousand streams in
the last twenty eight days in one of its thirty
(27:49):
target markets. So that's a really this applies to a
lot of people. Again, we have talked about on the show.
I believe the numbers. The numbers were pretty crazy. It
was like close to fIF fifty percent of these artists
have less than a thousand streams. But still there's a
lot of artists, right, So this applies to a lot
of different people. It's a very pretty low bar. You know,
(28:10):
if you have somewhat of a following, then you're pretty
much into being able to do these promotions on Showcase.
This may sound familiar for my industry friends because Spotify
is a tool that's very similar that's called Marquee, but
that allows labels to pay cash to Spotify in order
(28:31):
to directly advertise priority releases to customers on the platform,
and that launched in twenty nineteen. This Showcase one I
see more towards being marketed around the DIY or like
indie artists for example, and that Marquee is going to
be more of a label kind of tool. Spotify also
specifies that between Showcase and Marquee, Marquee is more for
(28:54):
new music, while Showcase can be either new or catalog music,
showing how they're similar and which is why I think
they're more towards DIY or indie people, which is people
who don't have labels basically, or you know, we could
maybe see some label artists try to use it for
catalog music, which is catalog music, which we actually had
a show about this a while ago, is music that's
(29:17):
generally older than eighteen months, so it doesn't have to
be that old. I mean, stuff from twenty twenty two
is catalog. Right. Campaigns will start as low as one
hundred dollars as of now when booked via Spotify for
artists one hundred dollars, which I was like, it's an
interesting number. Campaigns will run until an artist either a
(29:41):
spends their budget or fourteen days after their campaign starts,
whatever comes first. So if you're like really hitting it hard,
you're getting a bunch of interaction and stuff, you could
burn through your hundred dollars, let's say, or if you're
not getting a lot of interaction year, one hundred dollars
could go all fourteen days basically, right, So showcase is
(30:02):
priced to kind of what I just hinted out on
a cost per click basis starting at forty cents cost
per click, and Spotify says that it will only spend
an artist budget where people actually click on the showcase,
so basically saying like, hey, we're doing regular kind of
internet marketing in a lot of ways. It's not based
on impressions, thankfully, but like it's still you know, cost
(30:26):
per click forty cents. I mean that's you're looking at
two hundred, two hundred and fifty people for like one
hundred dollars. Right if you click through right not to
mention in people double click, I would assume that would
count as two clicks. Spotify says you can even use
your tools to specify in its thirty initial markets, which
is to be expected, as well as target different categories
(30:48):
of listeners, which I kind of had a hilarious time
reading about which we had super listeners, moderate listeners, and
light listeners, which are super vague, Like I tried to
figure out music bus this worldwide kind of spells it
out a little bit more. But it's like really funny
because literally it's just like, uh, super listeners interact with
your music like a lot, and moderate listeners activate you know,
(31:12):
kind of which you use it less. Yeah, right, Like
that's literally what it's like. And then light listeners do
it a little like that's literally what it's like.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
In the Spotify boardroom when they're pitching, they're like, yeah,
we got these super listeners. They're like, really, I feel
like you'd call them what's the word fans? Yeah, fans,
I think that's what the word is, and then moderates, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Right. It's just like the semantics of it are really funny.
But I understand. I'm sure there's like a whole complicated
chart for it based on how many streams you get
and like your active monthly listeners and stuff. But it
was really funny just how vague it was. Again, like
if you had a thousand streams in twenty eight days, right, Like,
let's say you had a thousand streams days, I'm like,
(32:00):
there's a potential that like a super listener could listen
to your song like ten times, you know what I mean. Like,
that's that's what we're looking at, right, because it's all
compared to one another. So I guess you've got to
figure out, like do you have people that are like,
you know, like what's your niche? Are you like super niche?
Kind of music, and you think you're just gonna have
(32:21):
these like megafans that are whales. Are you gonna like,
you know, listen to everything and like pay a bunch
of money or do you think you got like a
general kind of Hey, we could like put this in
an H and M commercial and people would tolerate it,
you know what I mean kind of music, So you
might be more light listeners everywhere. Anyway, the point is
is that we are starting actually with a point of
(32:45):
revenue that doesn't seem to be a raising the price
of Spotify b or taking money from the company itself,
or see taking money from the artists based on payout.
So I thought this was kind of a really interesting
model to think about, especially since Spotify has always rode
the line of like social media company but not really
(33:09):
but kind of you know what I mean. So it's
interesting to see them kind of place more money in ads,
which music business worldwide also ads and ads that basically
Spotify has always been the last dog in the fight
when it comes to ad money, so like this could
be an interesting spot for Spotify to expand. They expand
fifteen percent last year and ads year to year, so
(33:32):
they do have kind of a positive track record going
for them, so maybe they have some good relations there.
But Joe, I want to know first before we get
into it, what do we think of this idea, like
of being like almost akin to what I've seen on
TikTok promoting.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I think it's funny that it's
four cents when that's like way more than what they
pay out per street.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Yeah, you're right.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
So it's like, I don't know, it's it's a bit
ironic to somebody.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
It feels like the way I was thinking in my
head is it feels like how I live in Tennessee
with regressive taxes. Not to get super heavy, but like
literally like how there's a bunch of people here they'll
be like, we save so much money because we don't
have state tax and we don't have this, And I'd
be like, you're paying ten dollars. You're paying ten percent
more for everything you buy always because the sale tax
(34:27):
is so high. And so this is the kind of
what it imagines to me is like being like, you
guys are gonna get super pissed if we lower the
amount of money we pay you, But what if you
just pay us?
Speaker 2 (34:39):
Yeah? I know what I mean, I think like maybe
the cost benefit would be, like you're gaining at least
you know, if you get like one hundred people a
click or like two fifty or whatever to click. If
you get like maybe twenty of those people fans, you know,
like and they're like, oh, I'm a of this artist.
(35:00):
Now they're going to look at your other stuff, then
like maybe it's worth it at the end of the day.
But there is a level of like morally, like is
this correct? But the music industry is so honestly backwards
than what it was prior of Like even like what
(35:22):
what's considered payola right of like before paola was was
is illegal still. Payola is when you pay a radio
station to play your track, which is now very illegal
in the United States. However, it is very legal to
pay someone to add to their Spotify playlist that's public
(35:46):
if they're an influencer, and it's legal to pay influencers
to play your music on TikTok, which you know, this
is stuff that like all artists teams are are doing
pretty much right because they've they've had to do it well.
It's a loophole and it's also it's like the way
(36:09):
streaming works now, it's it kind of forces you to
do it right because you have to be part of
the conversation and part of the ecosystem of like what's
being spewed out into the internet forums. Otherwise people get
so distracted that they'll never find you again. I mean,
how many times gone have you been like when you're
(36:32):
consuming music now? Are you like someone that's like, oh,
I'm going to sit with this record for like a
good like two weeks, you know, and like keep listening
to this record, or are you the type of person
that's like, I've listened to this record twice now and
I'm probably not gonna listen to it again, And man,
(36:57):
I'm gonna need this artist to release within the next
year for me to pay attention.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Yeah. I mean for me, I think I kind of
cycle through and I usually get like one or two
songs maybe every like one or two weeks that I'm
like really into. I like add it to my playlist
and I'll listen to. You know, me, I have a
really bad habit of like over listening to like two
songs in a row because I'm just so obsessed with it.
But like, yeah, it's really interesting because I do get
(37:26):
what you're saying. It's like, there isn't that kind of
older style where because of the way and the and
the way that we consumed music. Right, Like, you bought
a CD, I'd be like, that's your new CD. You
maybe have five other CDs, so guess what, You're probably
gonna listen to that new CD like a bunch over
two weeks right now, because we have so much going on.
(37:49):
It's like, yeah, like you are really fighting against most
of the time. I mean, everybody says like, oh, you're
fighting all against each other, but like half the time,
you're kind of just fighting against human history's back catalog
of music. That is how I view it half the time, right,
is that you know, everybody's always like, well, you know,
like I gotta fight against like all these people that
(38:12):
are also trying to make new music. And I'm like, yeah,
but I feel like you're fighting against like Fleetwood Mac
and you know.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
What I mean.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
Like, that's what I feel like now with the about
that streaming has is that like you're fighting against these
like tried and true that a lot of people are like, oh,
I've heard they're really good, so I don't want to
waste my time with something that's maybe not good, and
so it would be interesting. Though. Going back to this
argument is I think this is a very interesting route
(38:40):
to go, and I honestly think it's a very genius
route to go for revenue, I mean taking out the
moral part of it where I think that especially in
this day and age and the way that specifically other
social media type companies have been going. I mean I
would look at TikTok, especially right now, because I have dude,
(39:03):
I don't know what happened. I mentioned it maybe like
two or three weeks ago on this show, but like
somebody at TikTok literally just put on the monetization button
or something and just everything went crazy. Like every time
I'm like looking, it's like here's a link to a
sweater with pickles on it, and then the next things
like here's how not to drain your bathtub, and like
(39:24):
all this kind and I feel like people are getting right.
I feel like people are getting more normalized to that.
And I do think that's a double edged sword. It's
like we gotta pay attention to that, like TikTok, or
you're going to drive people out. But I do think
that there is this kind of increase of people due
to this like almost recent acceptance of ad and monetization
(39:47):
that might go for this model. And I think they're
hitting on one thing that's really important here is that
I do think this is again really at these like
DIY and indie artists who kind of feel like, you know,
I have really good music, I just can't get in
front of people because of the algorithm. I'll just pay
(40:10):
the algorithm and then I'll let my music doing the talking,
which is like what every band on earth is gonna
goddamn think, right, But it's I think it has its
pros and cons. Like I definitely think one thing compared
to maybe the TikTok route is that you lose one
of the hardest parts about music on TikTok is the conversion, right, Yeah,
(40:32):
because you have like the song in the video that's entertaining,
and you're like, that song was kind of interesting, and
then like you kind of have to either like jot
it down what the song was, or be so moved
at the moment that you watch the TikTok that you're like,
I'm gonna go add it to my playlist so I
keep racking up money or something or same thing, like
when you're making tiktoks, it's like, oh, well, I gotta
(40:55):
if I make this song really attractive, then it's like
gotta make other people be like I need to make
more content it It's got to be a trend, as
we've talked about on the show. But one benefit to
this is you don't have a conversion right, Like these
are people that are trying to listen to music right
that just open their Spotify app. Okay, And I think
(41:15):
positively for Spotify and other you know, Apple music, YouTube
music and stuff like that, it has really let people's
guard down when it comes to just trusting the algorithm
in terms of like even me, the pretentious asshole I am,
and like what is the for you? Or the super mix? Say?
Speaker 2 (41:35):
Right?
Speaker 1 (41:36):
And so I think there is a group of like
consumers that could really be impacted by this advertising because
they're so used to just being like Spotify is right
about a lot of the music I listen to. Let's
let it roll the dice again. Tell me what this
band is? You know what I mean? And I think
if it's done in a very intelligent way, it could
(41:58):
be you know, symbiotic in that way. Now does that
kind of lose the I don't want to call it
like genuineness of the algorithm a little bit. Yeah, you
know what I mean, you're adding a you're adding a
paid function. But Spotify's had that problem kind of like
the payola thing, where it's like there was always a way,
(42:19):
you know what I mean, Like there was a reason
that like a bunch of this label music would get
in front of you first, right, you know what I mean,
like all together, and so like that they're you know,
they're bulk buying ads over you know, at a Sony
or Warner or Universal, so they have that power. So
it's not like there hasn't been let's say corruption, even
(42:40):
though it's not corruption, but would say that the system
has been corrupted already. Right, it's not just this like
free form capitalist market where like the best song prevails
to the top. But it's really funny to watch this
happen because I do think that for Spotify, this could
be a win, you know, but I think at the
(43:00):
cost of really praying on the desperation of the modern artist,
you know what I mean, and kind of praying at
a lot of these people that you know, may have
the miseducation or just the just the sole belief that
their music is just so good that they're gonna explode
(43:22):
if they spend one hundred dollars, which is what I
thought was wild about this. One hundred dollars is the
lowest campaign, right, Like I've done some advertising when we
were doing advertising for the show a little bit, I
was like, you could put a five dollar thing on
Instagram or on Facebook. You put twenty dollars, and that's
to start at one hundred dollars. Yeah, you know what
I mean, Like that's not nothing money.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
It's pretty it's pretty crazy to start at that level.
But like on some level, I I feel as though
it's like trying, it's trying to be perceived as like
this like revaluation of music, but I think like it's
(44:05):
putting the money in the wrong spot, you know what
I mean, Like I don't I don't see. I mean, ultimately,
like Spotify is going to do what's going to benefit Spotify,
They're not going to do what's beneficial to the artist.
So it's a it's kind of this like balancing act
that everyone has to play in the industry in order
(44:27):
to get pretty much play, but also keeping relationships going
and making money from it. But yeah, it's it's you know,
it kind of brought me back in time a little bit.
It to college because I remember calling like when we
(44:47):
were learning about how to market music. It was strictly
they were like, you have to view streaming as marketing,
Like you can't view it as a money maker. It's
just impossible. And that's honestly what's turned into releasing music,
Like releasing music has turned into marketing. But before the
(45:10):
fallback was like you market for your tour, so you're
marketing for your tour so that you're touring to make
money back because touring makes money. But now it's your
marketing to market and then you're gonna market somewhere and
eventually this money might come.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
It's true. I mean it's literally like yeah, I mean
it's so funny. It's it used to be more like
now I feel like we're not to be like we're
an endgame, but like it kind of reminds me of
you know, when people talk about like art, they'll say, like,
we had our Renaissance, and then we had our like modern,
(45:55):
and then we had our postmodern. I feel like we're
in the post modern part of streaming now, right, Like
you're saying it used to be back in the day,
it used to be you bought CDs or records. That's
how you made your money. You also toured to sell
CDs or records, okay, and then we kind we had Napster,
we had all this stuff. We it's streaming, and they went, Okay,
nobody's making money on selling this stuff anymore. You can
(46:18):
make some, but it's not it's not what you make
your money on. Right, So now you're gonna make music
and so people will go see you live because they
like your music so much. And now like that's modern.
And now I feel like we're in this postmodern era
where it's like you will make music in different social
media content, so they follow you on social media and
(46:41):
that's what you want. And so then you can advertise
touring because then they'll make you money on touring. But
you can't remember the middle step there. It's like it
used to be like a nice little side step, but
now it's like a you want the follow more than
you want the ticket right away because the follow will
stay with them as opposed to the tour, now you
(47:01):
know what I mean. And so it's it's really weird.
Like it's like that's why I want to say, it's
like post postmodern, like we are past just regular like
A plus b equals c. It's like a minus c.
But you know what times the square root of four
a B minus b C divided by four a c
(47:22):
you know, quadragic formula, and uh that that will equal money.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
Like some people so many anxious heart attacks.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
From now we're gonna go over integer.
Speaker 2 (47:35):
Flashed back to their high school math classes and.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
Oh got out. Now we're gonna do completing the square anyway, No,
never mind, Like it's so funny because like but that's
what I'm saying. It's just so weird now. And like
in the same way, it's like it would be weird
if you know, like Spotify, because essentially, like right, like
you're paying money to Spotify to have content on there
(48:00):
so they can charge a membership fee, so you could
get like no money back, right, your your negative money
most of the time for the beginning of your career,
and then then you have the goal Spotify to be like, hey,
we should pay more money to Spotify, and so like
it just seems like cyclical. It's like all the money
(48:21):
goes to Spotify, and where do I go? You know,
I'm and which is kind of what I want to
am interested in. Is I wondering if there's gonna be
some backlash about this, you know what I mean, Like
I haven't seen it yet, but I also think this
is very brand new news, so I'd be interested to
see if there's some artists backlash, especially like you're saying, Joe,
I mean, like if people start kind of going through
(48:42):
this cost per click thing, like you're saying, You're like,
you're charging me more than it is to stream my music,
you know what I mean, it would be interesting. But
I do think that, like, at the end of the day,
I think this is a smart idea, Like I think
this is an interesting way to you know, degenerate some revenue.
(49:02):
But at the same time, does it feel a little
scummy a little bit, especially since the price is one
hundred dollars starting, you know what I mean? I mean,
it's not that big of a deal if you're like
a five person band, but like you know, if you're
just like an acoustic act or something and you're just
you, you know what I mean, Like, that's a lot of money,
you know, for just like a couple ads.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
I feel like they're very if anything, that's kind of
showing Spotify's desperation for actual money for revenue.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean then this is one thing too.
It's like it's cold, hard cash, Like it's one hundred
dollars straight up, which you know Spotify is used to like, well,
we'll pay you out this off of you know, like
it's some long formula. No, it's it's one hundred dollars
cold cash. So I do think it will prey on
a lot of people that may not need to be
(49:55):
advertising their music, you know what I mean. There are
some people like like you know, I'm one of them
where it's like I have music, it's not particularly huge
or anything. I have some people that enjoy it and
talk to me, and I know where it is and
that's kind of where it's staying right now. But it's
like there are some people that this will pray on
and they'll be like, all I have to do is
get my music in front of people and then it
(50:17):
will work. And they're forgetting the quadratic formula that I
just laid out right, and Spotify is gonna be like, yes,
it will work. You will get more listeners and it
will be successful. And they're just trying to push you
through because they think it's an A plus B plus
equal C formula and Spotify is just being like, yes,
that's what it is. It's not the quadratic formula. So yeah,
(50:38):
I do think this will pray on some people. But
I do think in general, like Spotify could make some
good dollars off of this, because there's gonna be some
you know, rich kids, rich kids out there that their
parents are gonna be like, here's the thousand dollars, just
throw it away, you know what I mean, Like little
money junior. You know what I mean? Your rap careers
come take off right like or like the next John Mayer. Lookike,
(51:01):
your your career is going to take cough right like.
I just I see that already.
Speaker 2 (51:11):
The wacky world of music. And speaking of music, Colin,
what have you been listening to this week?
Speaker 1 (51:22):
Let's see. First, I've been listening to I'm trying to
think you want to go first? No no, no, no, no, okay.
I've been like, oh yeah, I forgot to mention this.
I've been listening to this. This is what I was
trying to remember the other day. I was like, I
want to forget this because last week I was totally
(51:42):
listening to this and I forgot to say it. I
was listening to, uh, this George Benson record that I
really like, which is called in Your Eyes, and there's
a song called Lady Love Me One More Time. It's
just got like a lot of key changes and stuff.
It's very eighties where it's like everything is newly digital
and like and that's what I really like about it everything.
So yeah, exactly, exactly. So I was listening to that
(52:05):
really like it. If you're a fan of like kind
of like funky you know, seven chord kind of nonsense.
There you go. Uh, I send Joe a song from
a band that I like, from one of my favorites.
Uh that is uh Fizz, which I sent Joe this
band to It's They had a song called high and Brighton.
I really like this band. They're newer, they're like a
(52:28):
new band, but they come from like they're bigger. Claim
to fame is that Dody is in that band. And
a lot of people knew Dody when she was on
YouTube and now she's kind of you know, like she
did her own thing with music and had some success there.
So now she has like this little four piece band
and I was kind of surprised about it. I was like, Oh,
it's just got like she's she's very intellectually smart, Doddy,
(52:50):
and she's very musically smart. And I think she rides
the line of being too musically smart where I joke
there's a bell curve where you're too musically smart and
the music becomes like too much. It's just like too
too complicated, too over the top just to be complicated
kind of stuff. And Dodie rides that right line between
(53:12):
having a hook and being like musically interesting. So like
this high and brighton song I really like because it
kind of reminds me of like a like a super
like it kind of reminds me of like a Beatles
song in a lot of ways where it's just like
it's got a lot of parts. Now we're on the
next thing. Now we're on the next thing. Now we're
on the next thing, you know what I mean, Like
other than it being very British anyway, Joe, what have
(53:33):
you been listening to?
Speaker 2 (53:34):
I've been listening a lot this week to the legend
who just passed away six too, Rodrigos and his.
Speaker 1 (53:44):
I thought you said it would be a Rodrigo. What
did I miss something?
Speaker 2 (53:48):
Yeah, she just passed away. We didn't talk about it's whatever.
Speaker 1 (53:52):
Can you imagine you ed? We went through all the
show and we never said anything that would be really sad,
just like that would be insane.
Speaker 2 (54:03):
I never had like a podcast have a cliffhanger before.
I feel like that would be it'd be like, okay, guys,
and we'll see you later. But Rodriguez passed away this week,
and it's it's pretty it's pretty sad. I mean, he's
a legend, mostly because of the documentary Finding Sugarman, which
(54:27):
if you guys don't know what it's about. Basically, Rodriguez
was very poor all of his life, but he was
coming out with albums. He would like release records. He
was signed on his first record to a major. He
got dropped. He didn't he couldn't ever find his footing again,
(54:50):
but he kept like releasing some works and then eventually
he just gave up on music. It just wasn't working
for him. But then all of a us sudden come
to find out that he is the biggest artist in
South Africa, like he is the the like he is
(55:12):
considered the Beatles in South Africa. Meanwhile, no one anywhere
else knows who he is. And people in South Africa
grew up on his music and really connected to it,
and it was considered for them the soundtrack of their
lives essentially, just like the Beatles are here in America.
(55:37):
And people assumed he died. People just thought he died,
but yeah, but they found him and he played an
arena concert in South Africa. His like pretty much his
first concert. I think it was his first concert out
(55:58):
of music retirement, was an arena show, which, like, can
you fucking imagine being like just this normal dude and
then just like all of a sudden, you're in front
of thousands of people. Yeah, dude, I cannot like it
since it has to be cool.
Speaker 1 (56:17):
I mean, speaking of that, we literally talked about We
had a story on this show where we talked about
Olivia Rodrigo and how she didn't do an arena tour
when she first came out, and they literally had a
whole conversation about how, you know, she wasn't ready for
this and like she needed to take more time and
play little venues and like in the same way, like
you're saying it's like now you're just out of retirement.
Speaker 2 (56:36):
Yeah, and well an arena. He was in his like
seventies when he did it, like he was he was
past the age significantly when he put the music up,
but people still loved it, and like he toured in
South Africa for a long time after that. But it's
(56:56):
such a it's such an amazing story, I think, uh,
and I am shocked that the music wasn't huge in
America because it's some of the best songwriting I've ever heard.
So yeah, you should definitely check it out. But that's
pretty much what I've been listening to. And now I'm
(57:18):
mint for our sponsor Manscaped. No, they're not, they're not. Actually,
can we put that in for it? Allowed? We never
got a Manscaped sponsorship before this end. We also never
(57:39):
got a RAID. We never got a Raid Shadow Legends,
which I'm really we didn't.
Speaker 1 (57:45):
We didn't even get we didn't even get to respond
to the Raid Shadow Legends controversy, which I'm I'm sad about.
You know what was?
Speaker 2 (57:53):
What's the controversy there?
Speaker 1 (57:54):
We don't have time for this, We really do not
have time for this.
Speaker 2 (57:58):
Let's just make this episode another hour long. Maybe that's
what we'll tell We're gonna talk about RAID Shadow Legends
of the last podcast. Yeah, I'm gonna open the depths
of RAID. I never letting
Speaker 1 (58:17):
Just end it.
Spotify's new revenue stream, promoting yourself on Spotify.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
And Rolling Stone's founder gets canceled. You're listening to the
biz Tape.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Welcome to the biz Tape. You're all Things Music, Business
and Media podcast. I don't know why I forgot that
one with my co host Coast to Coast Joseph Wazzeleski
joining us and myself live. Okay, let's just flip it.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Up live via discord Chat. We're really peeling back.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
I was gonna say, we're probably like somebody's like, oh god,
you know what I mean, because there's definitely people that
don't use Discord for like regular video games stuff, and
they only hear It's kind of like remember when the
news used to be like hacker four chan, you know
what I mean. Like that's what I'm sure somebody feels
that way about Discord where they're like, ah, it gives screens.
(01:05):
It's it's like, oh, there's some bad ship that goes down.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
But what I think is hilarious to like how it
pertains to the music industry is that, like, have you
just noticed Colin that every every single musicians like join
my Discord server.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
And I mean, I remember we talked about it a
while ago, and it was like it was rough, you
know what I mean, Like and people were trying their best,
and it's a it's a really cool like idea, but
it's just you gotta have super mega fans.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
I'm kind of like you should either go with the
newsletter or the discord, not both. It's kind of funny enough.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
The only people that I feel like it could really
work well for are like people that like our communities.
I cannot imagine using discord super heavy like super heavy
tailor Swift Discord, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Like, I mean, honestly, I think like Eler Swift would
have well, it would be insane just at all times.
But I do think that there's like some element of
like it could be like Tumblr vibes, you know, for
(02:18):
the Swifties.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Anyway, Well that sounds yeah, I was gonna say that
sounds awesome. Uh but yeah, all right, folks were nearing
the end, as some people can tell if you are
just listening to us, Sorry, we're gonna end soon. We
have two more episodes after this.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Yeah it's your fault too. I just want to really
really really could have stepped it up. It's your fault
that we're getting a divorce. It's I'm sorry, I'm losing
the house. Yeah, I'm losing my garage.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
It's a very weird split up, and it's weird we
have like two point five kids. I don't even know
how we get the point five separated. Yeah, but no, like, yeah,
seriously though, like it's been a really great run. Joe
and I probably get more into it in the last
episode because we're just gonna have a fun time in
the last episode. Again, if you listened to last week's
show where we broke the news, feel free give Joe
(03:19):
and I the hardest questions you possibly can ask somebody
about music industry media. It's one of these questions where
there's not really a real answer or something like that. Well,
we'll talk about it. I don't care. We deserve it
to you guys, you fans out there, So we're gonna
try our best anyway. Joe, I guess we're just gonna
(03:40):
get right into it with our continued best of the
news and what's going on with music business. I was
wondering who wanted to start, because I didn't know what
your story was.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
I feel like I'll start this this time it's a
it's a it's about our favorite thing in the music industry,
which is award shows. But this is an award hall.
Can you guess which which haul? It is?
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Rock and roll hall?
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yeah, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
I think I know where you're going with that, but
I'm interested to see where you're going.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
So if you're wondering why the Rock and Roll Hall
of Fame is feeling dated and has been feeling dated
for a while, it may come as no surprise that
it's run by old men. In one of these old
men is a man called Jane Wiener, who is h
(04:36):
He's one of the founders of Rolling Stone magazine.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Stone one of the I was wondering if you were
going to bring this up still, it's.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Such a it's such a can of worms, man, it is.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Such a like literally, I was like, I cannot believe
this is real.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
So this story, yeah, okay, So basically, Jane Winner, he
basically founded Rolling Stone. It got bought out by this
mega company that also owns Billboard, which is uh it
is called Pinsk Pinske Media. It's a giants media conglomerate
(05:14):
that owns like a bunch of stuff, especially with like
written news outlets that are online. So he retired, but
he took over the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame
Foundation as he was the head of it for a while. However,
(05:35):
jan might not have any kind of pr representative currently
because he.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Made at so much experience.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
He made a very extreme blunder for someone who's been
working in news media his entire life. But he was
promoting his new book called The Masters, which is a
book consisting of interviews with the likes of Bono are
Favorite Bono, Bob Dylan, Jerry Garcia, Mick Jagger, John Lennon,
(06:05):
and Pete Townshend during his time at Rolling Stone. So
it's basically a collection of all of these interviews that
he's done. However, during this New York Times piece that
was written about Werner during the like during his like
press outreach right of promoting the book, he basically said
(06:29):
some things that were pretty I would say racist and
pretty boomerish as he he essentially said that, uh, he
said that the question was posed, it's very crazy.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
The question was posed, canceled why.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Why he wasn't including any black musicians and women, And
he basically said in his statement that he didn't feel
that they were articulate enough in the interviews, is what
(07:18):
he said. And here I'll read exactly exactly what he
said in this New York Times article. He said. Warner
notes that in his introduction that neither are in his
zeit guys, referring to black musicians and female musicians. Quote.
(07:40):
When I was referring to the zeitgeist, I was referring
to black performers, not to the female performers. Okay, just
to get that accurate, Werner told the Times article writer
David Murches, quote, the people had to meet a couple
of criteria, but it was just kind of my personal
(08:00):
interest and love of them. In so far as the women,
just none of them were articulate enough on this intellectual level.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
He said, so on about the way if we're starting
any of them, he's saying the women.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
He said, so far as the women, and he's basically,
I mean, he's being like a snobbish asshole. First off,
he's he's he's sounding like he's he's sounding like he
feels like he's the smartest dude ever saying the ship
and it's so horrible, but he speaking on black artist
(08:40):
billboard continues, Werner said, you know what, Stevie Wonder genius. Right.
I suppose when you use the use the word as
broad as masters, the fault is using that word maybe
Marvin Gay or Curtis Mayfield. I mean they just didn't
articulate at that level. Yeah, So these are like he
(09:02):
just he funneled these people out on purpose, He's like
fully admitting, and it's because of it's it's seemingly because
of a very racist point of view.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
I literally this guy is like, like clearly has a
lot of problems of how he views society. Clearly, you know,
it's very easy to throw out potentially you know, some
comments of you know, just like I can literally this
is some of the most optically bad stuff I've always
(09:38):
seen ever. First off, can we I have to mention
an all white, all male book that's titled Masters.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Yeah, it's are you fucking kidding? Like horrible on every level.
I'm sure those artists are thrilled that got looped into
that h but just as so everywhere everyone understands like
how high up Wiener is. He helped found the Rock
(10:09):
and Roll Hall of Fame in nineteen eighty three with
Atlantic Records founder and chairman Ahmut Erdigan as well as
record executives seymour Stein, Bob kr kranz Now and Noreene Woods,
and attorneys Alan Grubman and Susan Evans, which are these
are all like ginormous names in the world of music
(10:32):
and legendary names. And he's been kind of up the
ranks for a very very long time. And I'm sure
he's made a ton of money from that sale of
Rolling Stone as well, so there's a level of he
he has a lot of power and influence, which begs
(10:53):
the question how long has he been this much of
a dumb dumb honestly.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
No, I mean like and realistically, like, yeah, this guy
has contributed. You know, Rolling Stone at the time was
one of the.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
It was like culture work. Yeah, it was like the
Pitchfork of the time of like it it established people's
tastes in music and had so much.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Sense and it still does to a degree. It's it's
a very institutional piece of you know, like media and
like the amount of writers that he also established into that.
I mean, like the term like music journalism in its
way that it's become really has come through Rolling Stone,
So that cannot be understated. But like, like you're saying
(11:45):
in terms of when we're talking about the fully you know,
formed person that was at the helm of Rolling Stone,
it really begs the question that the person that is
giving these comments, does rolling Stone have you know in
its history that it denied people based on that they
were articulate enough, you know what I mean. And it
(12:08):
might have just been disguised misogyny or racism, you know
what I mean. And I've heard echoes of this before,
but these are very damning comments.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
So tone deaf on every level, and it's it's shocking,
especially coming from someone who's worked in media and should
have a very like it should have a high understanding
of like what the like where media as is at currently,
But goes to show that people don't keep up with
(12:40):
things in a lot of in a lot of ways,
especially when you have exactly and and he thought I
think he thought he wasn't invincible. But he has since
been moved removed from the board of directors at the
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, pretty much being lambasted
(13:03):
by fellow board member like Rob Light who is the
head of Creative Artists Agency, and according to a source
from Billboard Music, manager John Laddau was Landau was the
only person to cast no in the vote against jam
(13:27):
pretty much, so he was from one single vote minus
that unanimously voted out from the whole board room, and
the only statement that was put out was Jane Wiener
has been removed from the Board of Directors of the
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Foundation. And there have
(13:47):
been no comments after requests from Billboard and pretty much
everywhere else. But it just, man, he really just sided.
Let's just I've had a good career in the foot
I was just my career, h and kill it.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
It's just a question my entire magazine's legacy up here,
and like the places that it has gone and the
people it is, like, literally I I cannot like when
I first heard about this, honestly, it was so insane
that I like forgot about it because it was just
so crazy that I was like, what is going on here?
(14:33):
So I'm really glad you brought it back, because honestly,
I would have forgot about it right now. But like
when you really like it's kind of insane, just like
the poeticness of the story, you know what I mean,
Just like how like there's so many inert like stereotypes
being in here, like especially especially calling black musicians who
have been levied this criticism many times as being not articulate,
(14:57):
which is just false, you know what I mean. And
like there's just so many things that are like you're
just playing into historic stereotypes here, right, Like I mean
a lot of.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
The times, it's so racist on so many levels that
it really does it like begs the question like how
how much of this is like still in the industry,
Like how much of these old people who think this
way still run the industry in certain departments, you know,
(15:29):
and like how much power do these people have?
Speaker 1 (15:32):
And then like we got to hit on the female
musicians too, quote as articulate enough on their on this
intellectual level as these men. That's basically what he says.
Other than as the men he says, quote as articulate
enough on this intellectual level. Oh my god, are you
kidding me? Like if you there, there's so many like
(15:53):
he names a bunch of people that I would actually
argue are very articulate, like a Gray Slick or a
Janis Joplin, and specifically a Joni Mitchell, Like you know
what I mean, Like it's kind of you know, it's
one thing. It's one thing that like, let's say, if
he decided to go, like, hey, I uh, just pick
(16:15):
these people, like he opened this up by himself, right
like there was nobody like he really dawn at him,
Like he could have said, hey, we picked three hundred
we picked three undred and sixty eight pages, which is
a rather long book of interviews with musicians, and we
just couldn't keep going. Maybe we'll do it in a
(16:36):
second one and it wouldn't have been a controverty you
know what I mean, Like, are you like he literally
could have just edited at that. I'm sure the criticism
of not having the diversity there, it's given the rock
and Roll's history still stands.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
But he just.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Decided to light the match to this entire thing for
no reason. So it almost feels like given that, like
you're saying, Joe, all of this media's experienced that he has.
I mean, this guy has launched and helped do presidential
level interviews of presidential people that became president, you know,
and you know notably were quoted as being you know,
(17:12):
things that help people win the campaign. This is not
a guy that like does things just because he's doing
this on purpose, you know, he's doing this to show
this viewpoint that he has. Yeah that apparently, you know,
black artists and women are not articulate enough about rock
(17:33):
and roll music in general. So I feel like it's like,
you know, there is a level of there's so much
ignorance here that he's just showing the ignorance. But it's
almost like he's trying to boast the ignorance, you know
what I mean.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Right, Yeah, he's just like he's so out of touch
with reality that it's like to him, he's just like,
oh yeah, this is like like you don't feel this way,
like this is normal. And it's also besic Rushoul. Who
are these other people that he's hanging out with that also.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Well the fun mat fact get literally I'm getting thing
articles that are related to this that are like, women
make up less than eight percent of Rock and Roll
Hall of Fame inductees. I wonder fucking why, you know
what I mean, if you started the goddamn thing and like,
to be honest, like, the one that also really gets
me on here other than Joni is Stevie Wonder, one
of the ironically one of the best you know you
(18:27):
guys who've been listening the show for a long time
have known that I'm a big nerd about like very
historic moments and music or like speeches or whatever. And
like one of the speeches that comes up in my
mind as a really well articulate and moving speech that
actually happened at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame
at his induction was Stevie Wonder, and like it literally
(18:52):
is about like his prejudice and the stuff that he's
dealt with, and just like the graciousness that he has
to eat and be there, and it's so moving. He
takes off his glasses during it, and you just look
like you just look right in his face the entire time,
and you can tell that he's just like giving himself
to the audience, being like, wow, I cannot believe that
(19:13):
I am here, you know what I mean. And it's
one of the most articulate speeches that I've ever heard.
I would literally look it up if I were you.
It's Stevie Wonder rock and Roll Hall of Fame speech,
and he's got his kids with him. It's like nineteen
eighty nine, and I literally it's like such a capstone
speech to the whole thing. So I just find it
(19:34):
ridiculous that someone would say, like he is not articulate,
he's insanely articulate.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Yeah, you know, I mean he's it's it's truly horrific,
and uh he deserves everything that's happening.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Yeah, it's there's nothing. You know, people who listen to
the show historically, no, I like to play Devil's advocate.
But it's like this guy's doing it on purpose. Like
this is not zero, this is not a miscommunication. This
is not like a oh, this is that a contact. No, Like,
this guy is has the training, has the knowledge, and
knows what the power of his position is. And so
(20:16):
it seems like he's trying to further that agenda more
than he is trying to, let's say, defend himself, you
know what I mean, he's trying to use his position
to you know, hammer in the point that he's trying
to make, which is you know, to be racism, misogynistic.
So I you know, it's really you know, out of
(20:38):
this world that this is. This is the guy that
you know, founded one of the biggest publications on earth
and now like has put an irremarkable you know, irremovable
like staying on the legacy of that publication, you know
what I mean. Yeah, Like, now this is going to
(20:59):
make people think about, you know, why did this person
never get covered? Why did this person get covered? You
know what I mean? And Rolling Stone shaped careers and
continues to shape careers. Right, So it's you know, one
thing if you feel like there are people that make
a mistake in that happens, but this just feels like
(21:19):
a willful moment to show in boast ignorance.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Yeah, God, it's truly. I was actually my mouth was
on the ground when I was like reading these statements.
It was just so it's so like unforgivably racist, and
just like it's it's just his his confidence in how
(21:48):
he's like responding to it and like how he like
explains it more like right he's like, oh yeah, well
of course I know everything. It's like that also level
of like this guy is like the stereotypical racist man
who thinks that he is the smartest person in the
(22:09):
world and he has a bunch of money, he had
a bunch of power, and that's scary and it's if anything,
it's like it shows how the music industry needs to change.
And also I think in some level how it has
changed but it wasn't that long ago though he was
(22:30):
still running Rolling Stone, you.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Know, I mean that. And I also think it's just
it just really shows. I mean, this guy was pivoted
as a champion of rock and roll publications bringing people
to the limelight, which I'm sure that he did some regard,
but it's like, you know, it's one of these things
(22:55):
where one step forward, two steps back in a lot
of ways where you feel like this is an I've
met these people in the industry that hide in plain sight,
you know what I mean. It's one of these things
where they hide in play I've gotten into as of late,
actually awkward conversations about things that are you know, just
(23:17):
human decency conversations, And I was like, oh my god,
I cannot believe I'm having this conversation right now, you
know what I mean. And I think this is an
example that like the music industry has problems with this
where it will enable these people due to their connections
and status, and so does life, but specifically the music industry,
due to its closed nick you know, kind of insider
(23:39):
crowd has to be on the hip side of everything attitude,
like these people are enabled to stay in here and
be hidden in plain sight, you know what I mean,
And so I just think, like, you know, if you
think that that is impossible, it is entire higherly possible
(24:00):
in the music industry to have this. I mean, this
is a prime example of this, This this entire time
where this guy you know, clearly had very very very
like hard and you know, misogynistic and racist theories about music,
but was also the face and head and leader and
(24:22):
also trail blazer of music publication.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Yeah, it's man, it's a bummer. It's a huge, huge bummer.
It's also just like on some level, like people have
to people have had to have interacted with him in
the past and been like this, this dude is racist, right,
(24:49):
and like just enabling him to continue because they're getting
something out of it is It's just it's tough. It's
really tough. But he is out of the rock and
roll Hall of Fame. Who knows if any of the
rest of that board is just as tone death. I
guess we'll see, because I'm sure they're going to be
(25:17):
on Colin, What is your story?
Speaker 1 (25:20):
All right, let's talk about this. So we've hit it
in the life of our show a lot. We've talked
about big tech and our show's cut to eat Spotify
and how they have been failing to profit and make
more money to generate revenue. Right, It's been a problem
since these companies were created, you know, all these tech
(25:41):
social media companies, streaming companies have always had this problem
where they cannot get enough revenue. But everybody said, growth, growth, growth, right.
I have said this so many times on the show
on a broken record. So many experts we're trying to basically,
you know, figure out what are we going to do,
and so we've talked a lot about the show. Also,
many experts, you know, have their theories that streaming maybe
(26:06):
coming to a plateau soon because there's not much more
exponential growth left. Like we've we have streaming around the world.
There's not a lot of different genres that have a
lot of room to grow, you know, So what are
we gonna do? You know what I mean? These companies
where you know, we can cut as many people as
we want to a point, but like at the end
of the day, it's like we do need to have
(26:26):
an operating budget and without making really really harsh cuts,
something's got to change. So like it felt like one
of those where it's like, oh my god, there's a
reckoning here unless we can figure out something. And I'm
arguing that Spotify may have a good idea here, but
at what costs? So let's talk about it. Like Spotify
(26:47):
has been known for monetizing consumers, right, so I you know,
it's kind of evident from this new tool that they're
showcasing pun intended Spotify may be turning to get money
from artists directly. Quote. Spotify has just launched Showcase, a
new paid for promo tool that lets artists and their
(27:07):
teams highlight new and catalog releases in app on the
platform's mobile home page. Mobile Home, according to Spotify, is
the most visited place on Spotify, and billions of streams
streams originated from every day. And I was about to
be like, of course it freaking is. Guess what happens
when you open the goddamn app. It's like Google being
(27:28):
like the Google search bar is the most used part
of Google. It'd be like no shit, sherlock anyway, According
to Spotify, over the next few weeks, artists and their
team with US base billing will be eligible to use
Showcase if they have at least one thousand streams in
the last twenty eight days in one of its thirty
(27:49):
target markets. So that's a really this applies to a
lot of people. Again, we have talked about on the show.
I believe the numbers. The numbers were pretty crazy. It
was like close to fIF fifty percent of these artists
have less than a thousand streams. But still there's a
lot of artists, right, So this applies to a lot
of different people. It's a very pretty low bar. You know,
(28:10):
if you have somewhat of a following, then you're pretty
much into being able to do these promotions on Showcase.
This may sound familiar for my industry friends because Spotify
is a tool that's very similar that's called Marquee, but
that allows labels to pay cash to Spotify in order
(28:31):
to directly advertise priority releases to customers on the platform,
and that launched in twenty nineteen. This Showcase one I
see more towards being marketed around the DIY or like
indie artists for example, and that Marquee is going to
be more of a label kind of tool. Spotify also
specifies that between Showcase and Marquee, Marquee is more for
(28:54):
new music, while Showcase can be either new or catalog music,
showing how they're similar and which is why I think
they're more towards DIY or indie people, which is people
who don't have labels basically, or you know, we could
maybe see some label artists try to use it for
catalog music, which is catalog music, which we actually had
a show about this a while ago, is music that's
(29:17):
generally older than eighteen months, so it doesn't have to
be that old. I mean, stuff from twenty twenty two
is catalog. Right. Campaigns will start as low as one
hundred dollars as of now when booked via Spotify for
artists one hundred dollars, which I was like, it's an
interesting number. Campaigns will run until an artist either a
(29:41):
spends their budget or fourteen days after their campaign starts,
whatever comes first. So if you're like really hitting it hard,
you're getting a bunch of interaction and stuff, you could
burn through your hundred dollars, let's say, or if you're
not getting a lot of interaction year, one hundred dollars
could go all fourteen days basically, right, So showcase is
(30:02):
priced to kind of what I just hinted out on
a cost per click basis starting at forty cents cost
per click, and Spotify says that it will only spend
an artist budget where people actually click on the showcase,
so basically saying like, hey, we're doing regular kind of
internet marketing in a lot of ways. It's not based
on impressions, thankfully, but like it's still you know, cost
(30:26):
per click forty cents. I mean that's you're looking at
two hundred, two hundred and fifty people for like one
hundred dollars. Right if you click through right not to
mention in people double click, I would assume that would
count as two clicks. Spotify says you can even use
your tools to specify in its thirty initial markets, which
is to be expected, as well as target different categories
(30:48):
of listeners, which I kind of had a hilarious time
reading about which we had super listeners, moderate listeners, and
light listeners, which are super vague, Like I tried to
figure out music bus this worldwide kind of spells it
out a little bit more. But it's like really funny
because literally it's just like, uh, super listeners interact with
your music like a lot, and moderate listeners activate you know,
(31:12):
kind of which you use it less. Yeah, right, Like
that's literally what it's like. And then light listeners do
it a little like that's literally what it's like.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
In the Spotify boardroom when they're pitching, they're like, yeah,
we got these super listeners. They're like, really, I feel
like you'd call them what's the word fans? Yeah, fans,
I think that's what the word is, and then moderates, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Right. It's just like the semantics of it are really funny.
But I understand. I'm sure there's like a whole complicated
chart for it based on how many streams you get
and like your active monthly listeners and stuff. But it
was really funny just how vague it was. Again, like
if you had a thousand streams in twenty eight days, right, Like,
let's say you had a thousand streams days, I'm like,
(32:00):
there's a potential that like a super listener could listen
to your song like ten times, you know what I mean. Like,
that's that's what we're looking at, right, because it's all
compared to one another. So I guess you've got to
figure out, like do you have people that are like,
you know, like what's your niche? Are you like super niche?
Kind of music, and you think you're just gonna have
(32:21):
these like megafans that are whales. Are you gonna like,
you know, listen to everything and like pay a bunch
of money or do you think you got like a
general kind of Hey, we could like put this in
an H and M commercial and people would tolerate it,
you know what I mean kind of music, So you
might be more light listeners everywhere. Anyway, the point is
is that we are starting actually with a point of
(32:45):
revenue that doesn't seem to be a raising the price
of Spotify b or taking money from the company itself,
or see taking money from the artists based on payout.
So I thought this was kind of a really interesting
model to think about, especially since Spotify has always rode
the line of like social media company but not really
(33:09):
but kind of you know what I mean. So it's
interesting to see them kind of place more money in ads,
which music business worldwide also ads and ads that basically
Spotify has always been the last dog in the fight
when it comes to ad money, so like this could
be an interesting spot for Spotify to expand. They expand
fifteen percent last year and ads year to year, so
(33:32):
they do have kind of a positive track record going
for them, so maybe they have some good relations there.
But Joe, I want to know first before we get
into it, what do we think of this idea, like
of being like almost akin to what I've seen on
TikTok promoting.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I think it's funny that it's
four cents when that's like way more than what they
pay out per street.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Yeah, you're right.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
So it's like, I don't know, it's it's a bit
ironic to somebody.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
It feels like the way I was thinking in my
head is it feels like how I live in Tennessee
with regressive taxes. Not to get super heavy, but like
literally like how there's a bunch of people here they'll
be like, we save so much money because we don't
have state tax and we don't have this, And I'd
be like, you're paying ten dollars. You're paying ten percent
more for everything you buy always because the sale tax
(34:27):
is so high. And so this is the kind of
what it imagines to me is like being like, you
guys are gonna get super pissed if we lower the
amount of money we pay you, But what if you
just pay us?
Speaker 2 (34:39):
Yeah? I know what I mean, I think like maybe
the cost benefit would be, like you're gaining at least
you know, if you get like one hundred people a
click or like two fifty or whatever to click. If
you get like maybe twenty of those people fans, you know,
like and they're like, oh, I'm a of this artist.
(35:00):
Now they're going to look at your other stuff, then
like maybe it's worth it at the end of the day.
But there is a level of like morally, like is
this correct? But the music industry is so honestly backwards
than what it was prior of Like even like what
(35:22):
what's considered payola right of like before paola was was
is illegal still. Payola is when you pay a radio
station to play your track, which is now very illegal
in the United States. However, it is very legal to
pay someone to add to their Spotify playlist that's public
(35:46):
if they're an influencer, and it's legal to pay influencers
to play your music on TikTok, which you know, this
is stuff that like all artists teams are are doing
pretty much right because they've they've had to do it well.
It's a loophole and it's also it's like the way
(36:09):
streaming works now, it's it kind of forces you to
do it right because you have to be part of
the conversation and part of the ecosystem of like what's
being spewed out into the internet forums. Otherwise people get
so distracted that they'll never find you again. I mean,
how many times gone have you been like when you're
(36:32):
consuming music now? Are you like someone that's like, oh,
I'm going to sit with this record for like a
good like two weeks, you know, and like keep listening
to this record, or are you the type of person
that's like, I've listened to this record twice now and
I'm probably not gonna listen to it again, And man,
(36:57):
I'm gonna need this artist to release within the next
year for me to pay attention.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Yeah. I mean for me, I think I kind of
cycle through and I usually get like one or two
songs maybe every like one or two weeks that I'm
like really into. I like add it to my playlist
and I'll listen to. You know, me, I have a
really bad habit of like over listening to like two
songs in a row because I'm just so obsessed with it.
But like, yeah, it's really interesting because I do get
(37:26):
what you're saying. It's like, there isn't that kind of
older style where because of the way and the and
the way that we consumed music. Right, Like, you bought
a CD, I'd be like, that's your new CD. You
maybe have five other CDs, so guess what, You're probably
gonna listen to that new CD like a bunch over
two weeks right now, because we have so much going on.
(37:49):
It's like, yeah, like you are really fighting against most
of the time. I mean, everybody says like, oh, you're
fighting all against each other, but like half the time,
you're kind of just fighting against human history's back catalog
of music. That is how I view it half the time, right,
is that you know, everybody's always like, well, you know,
like I gotta fight against like all these people that
(38:12):
are also trying to make new music. And I'm like, yeah,
but I feel like you're fighting against like Fleetwood Mac
and you know.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
What I mean.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
Like, that's what I feel like now with the about
that streaming has is that like you're fighting against these
like tried and true that a lot of people are like, oh,
I've heard they're really good, so I don't want to
waste my time with something that's maybe not good, and
so it would be interesting. Though. Going back to this
argument is I think this is a very interesting route
(38:40):
to go, and I honestly think it's a very genius
route to go for revenue, I mean taking out the
moral part of it where I think that especially in
this day and age and the way that specifically other
social media type companies have been going. I mean I
would look at TikTok, especially right now, because I have dude,
(39:03):
I don't know what happened. I mentioned it maybe like
two or three weeks ago on this show, but like
somebody at TikTok literally just put on the monetization button
or something and just everything went crazy. Like every time
I'm like looking, it's like here's a link to a
sweater with pickles on it, and then the next things
like here's how not to drain your bathtub, and like
(39:24):
all this kind and I feel like people are getting right.
I feel like people are getting more normalized to that.
And I do think that's a double edged sword. It's
like we gotta pay attention to that, like TikTok, or
you're going to drive people out. But I do think
that there is this kind of increase of people due
to this like almost recent acceptance of ad and monetization
(39:47):
that might go for this model. And I think they're
hitting on one thing that's really important here is that
I do think this is again really at these like
DIY and indie artists who kind of feel like, you know,
I have really good music, I just can't get in
front of people because of the algorithm. I'll just pay
(40:10):
the algorithm and then I'll let my music doing the talking,
which is like what every band on earth is gonna
goddamn think, right, But it's I think it has its
pros and cons. Like I definitely think one thing compared
to maybe the TikTok route is that you lose one
of the hardest parts about music on TikTok is the conversion, right, Yeah,
(40:32):
because you have like the song in the video that's entertaining,
and you're like, that song was kind of interesting, and
then like you kind of have to either like jot
it down what the song was, or be so moved
at the moment that you watch the TikTok that you're like,
I'm gonna go add it to my playlist so I
keep racking up money or something or same thing, like
when you're making tiktoks, it's like, oh, well, I gotta
(40:55):
if I make this song really attractive, then it's like
gotta make other people be like I need to make
more content it It's got to be a trend, as
we've talked about on the show. But one benefit to
this is you don't have a conversion right, Like these
are people that are trying to listen to music right
that just open their Spotify app. Okay, And I think
(41:15):
positively for Spotify and other you know, Apple music, YouTube
music and stuff like that, it has really let people's
guard down when it comes to just trusting the algorithm
in terms of like even me, the pretentious asshole I am,
and like what is the for you? Or the super mix? Say?
Speaker 2 (41:35):
Right?
Speaker 1 (41:36):
And so I think there is a group of like
consumers that could really be impacted by this advertising because
they're so used to just being like Spotify is right
about a lot of the music I listen to. Let's
let it roll the dice again. Tell me what this
band is? You know what I mean? And I think
if it's done in a very intelligent way, it could
(41:58):
be you know, symbiotic in that way. Now does that
kind of lose the I don't want to call it
like genuineness of the algorithm a little bit. Yeah, you
know what I mean, you're adding a you're adding a
paid function. But Spotify's had that problem kind of like
the payola thing, where it's like there was always a way,
(42:19):
you know what I mean, Like there was a reason
that like a bunch of this label music would get
in front of you first, right, you know what I mean,
like all together, and so like that they're you know,
they're bulk buying ads over you know, at a Sony
or Warner or Universal, so they have that power. So
it's not like there hasn't been let's say corruption, even
(42:40):
though it's not corruption, but would say that the system
has been corrupted already. Right, it's not just this like
free form capitalist market where like the best song prevails
to the top. But it's really funny to watch this
happen because I do think that for Spotify, this could
be a win, you know, but I think at the
(43:00):
cost of really praying on the desperation of the modern artist,
you know what I mean, and kind of praying at
a lot of these people that you know, may have
the miseducation or just the just the sole belief that
their music is just so good that they're gonna explode
(43:22):
if they spend one hundred dollars, which is what I
thought was wild about this. One hundred dollars is the
lowest campaign, right, Like I've done some advertising when we
were doing advertising for the show a little bit, I
was like, you could put a five dollar thing on
Instagram or on Facebook. You put twenty dollars, and that's
to start at one hundred dollars. Yeah, you know what
I mean, Like that's not nothing money.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
It's pretty it's pretty crazy to start at that level.
But like on some level, I I feel as though
it's like trying, it's trying to be perceived as like
this like revaluation of music, but I think like it's
(44:05):
putting the money in the wrong spot, you know what
I mean, Like I don't I don't see. I mean, ultimately,
like Spotify is going to do what's going to benefit Spotify,
They're not going to do what's beneficial to the artist.
So it's a it's kind of this like balancing act
that everyone has to play in the industry in order
(44:27):
to get pretty much play, but also keeping relationships going
and making money from it. But yeah, it's it's you know,
it kind of brought me back in time a little bit.
It to college because I remember calling like when we
(44:47):
were learning about how to market music. It was strictly
they were like, you have to view streaming as marketing,
Like you can't view it as a money maker. It's
just impossible. And that's honestly what's turned into releasing music,
Like releasing music has turned into marketing. But before the
(45:10):
fallback was like you market for your tour, so you're
marketing for your tour so that you're touring to make
money back because touring makes money. But now it's your
marketing to market and then you're gonna market somewhere and
eventually this money might come.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
It's true. I mean it's literally like yeah, I mean
it's so funny. It's it used to be more like
now I feel like we're not to be like we're
an endgame, but like it kind of reminds me of
you know, when people talk about like art, they'll say, like,
we had our Renaissance, and then we had our like modern,
(45:55):
and then we had our postmodern. I feel like we're
in the post modern part of streaming now, right, Like
you're saying it used to be back in the day,
it used to be you bought CDs or records. That's
how you made your money. You also toured to sell
CDs or records, okay, and then we kind we had Napster,
we had all this stuff. We it's streaming, and they went, Okay,
nobody's making money on selling this stuff anymore. You can
(46:18):
make some, but it's not it's not what you make
your money on. Right, So now you're gonna make music
and so people will go see you live because they
like your music so much. And now like that's modern.
And now I feel like we're in this postmodern era
where it's like you will make music in different social
media content, so they follow you on social media and
(46:41):
that's what you want. And so then you can advertise
touring because then they'll make you money on touring. But
you can't remember the middle step there. It's like it
used to be like a nice little side step, but
now it's like a you want the follow more than
you want the ticket right away because the follow will
stay with them as opposed to the tour, now you
(47:01):
know what I mean. And so it's it's really weird.
Like it's like that's why I want to say, it's
like post postmodern, like we are past just regular like
A plus b equals c. It's like a minus c.
But you know what times the square root of four
a B minus b C divided by four a c
(47:22):
you know, quadragic formula, and uh that that will equal money.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
Like some people so many anxious heart attacks.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
From now we're gonna go over integer.
Speaker 2 (47:35):
Flashed back to their high school math classes and.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
Oh got out. Now we're gonna do completing the square anyway, No,
never mind, Like it's so funny because like but that's
what I'm saying. It's just so weird now. And like
in the same way, it's like it would be weird
if you know, like Spotify, because essentially, like right, like
you're paying money to Spotify to have content on there
(48:00):
so they can charge a membership fee, so you could
get like no money back, right, your your negative money
most of the time for the beginning of your career,
and then then you have the goal Spotify to be like, hey,
we should pay more money to Spotify, and so like
it just seems like cyclical. It's like all the money
(48:21):
goes to Spotify, and where do I go? You know,
I'm and which is kind of what I want to
am interested in. Is I wondering if there's gonna be
some backlash about this, you know what I mean, Like
I haven't seen it yet, but I also think this
is very brand new news, so I'd be interested to
see if there's some artists backlash, especially like you're saying, Joe,
I mean, like if people start kind of going through
(48:42):
this cost per click thing, like you're saying, You're like,
you're charging me more than it is to stream my music,
you know what I mean, it would be interesting. But
I do think that, like, at the end of the day,
I think this is a smart idea, Like I think
this is an interesting way to you know, degenerate some revenue.
(49:02):
But at the same time, does it feel a little
scummy a little bit, especially since the price is one
hundred dollars starting, you know what I mean? I mean,
it's not that big of a deal if you're like
a five person band, but like you know, if you're
just like an acoustic act or something and you're just
you, you know what I mean, Like, that's a lot of money,
you know, for just like a couple ads.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
I feel like they're very if anything, that's kind of
showing Spotify's desperation for actual money for revenue.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean then this is one thing too.
It's like it's cold, hard cash, Like it's one hundred
dollars straight up, which you know Spotify is used to like, well,
we'll pay you out this off of you know, like
it's some long formula. No, it's it's one hundred dollars
cold cash. So I do think it will prey on
a lot of people that may not need to be
(49:55):
advertising their music, you know what I mean. There are
some people like like you know, I'm one of them
where it's like I have music, it's not particularly huge
or anything. I have some people that enjoy it and
talk to me, and I know where it is and
that's kind of where it's staying right now. But it's
like there are some people that this will pray on
and they'll be like, all I have to do is
get my music in front of people and then it
(50:17):
will work. And they're forgetting the quadratic formula that I
just laid out right, and Spotify is gonna be like, yes,
it will work. You will get more listeners and it
will be successful. And they're just trying to push you
through because they think it's an A plus B plus
equal C formula and Spotify is just being like, yes,
that's what it is. It's not the quadratic formula. So yeah,
(50:38):
I do think this will pray on some people. But
I do think in general, like Spotify could make some
good dollars off of this, because there's gonna be some
you know, rich kids, rich kids out there that their
parents are gonna be like, here's the thousand dollars, just
throw it away, you know what I mean, Like little
money junior. You know what I mean? Your rap careers
come take off right like or like the next John Mayer. Lookike,
(51:01):
your your career is going to take cough right like.
I just I see that already.
Speaker 2 (51:11):
The wacky world of music. And speaking of music, Colin,
what have you been listening to this week?
Speaker 1 (51:22):
Let's see. First, I've been listening to I'm trying to
think you want to go first? No no, no, no, no, okay.
I've been like, oh yeah, I forgot to mention this.
I've been listening to this. This is what I was
trying to remember the other day. I was like, I
want to forget this because last week I was totally
(51:42):
listening to this and I forgot to say it. I
was listening to, uh, this George Benson record that I
really like, which is called in Your Eyes, and there's
a song called Lady Love Me One More Time. It's
just got like a lot of key changes and stuff.
It's very eighties where it's like everything is newly digital
and like and that's what I really like about it everything.
So yeah, exactly, exactly. So I was listening to that
(52:05):
really like it. If you're a fan of like kind
of like funky you know, seven chord kind of nonsense.
There you go. Uh, I send Joe a song from
a band that I like, from one of my favorites.
Uh that is uh Fizz, which I sent Joe this
band to It's They had a song called high and Brighton.
I really like this band. They're newer, they're like a
(52:28):
new band, but they come from like they're bigger. Claim
to fame is that Dody is in that band. And
a lot of people knew Dody when she was on
YouTube and now she's kind of you know, like she
did her own thing with music and had some success there.
So now she has like this little four piece band
and I was kind of surprised about it. I was like, Oh,
it's just got like she's she's very intellectually smart, Doddy,
(52:50):
and she's very musically smart. And I think she rides
the line of being too musically smart where I joke
there's a bell curve where you're too musically smart and
the music becomes like too much. It's just like too
too complicated, too over the top just to be complicated
kind of stuff. And Dodie rides that right line between
(53:12):
having a hook and being like musically interesting. So like
this high and brighton song I really like because it
kind of reminds me of like a like a super
like it kind of reminds me of like a Beatles
song in a lot of ways where it's just like
it's got a lot of parts. Now we're on the
next thing. Now we're on the next thing. Now we're
on the next thing, you know what I mean, Like
other than it being very British anyway, Joe, what have
(53:33):
you been listening to?
Speaker 2 (53:34):
I've been listening a lot this week to the legend
who just passed away six too, Rodrigos and his.
Speaker 1 (53:44):
I thought you said it would be a Rodrigo. What
did I miss something?
Speaker 2 (53:48):
Yeah, she just passed away. We didn't talk about it's whatever.
Speaker 1 (53:52):
Can you imagine you ed? We went through all the
show and we never said anything that would be really sad,
just like that would be insane.
Speaker 2 (54:03):
I never had like a podcast have a cliffhanger before.
I feel like that would be it'd be like, okay, guys,
and we'll see you later. But Rodriguez passed away this week,
and it's it's pretty it's pretty sad. I mean, he's
a legend, mostly because of the documentary Finding Sugarman, which
(54:27):
if you guys don't know what it's about. Basically, Rodriguez
was very poor all of his life, but he was
coming out with albums. He would like release records. He
was signed on his first record to a major. He
got dropped. He didn't he couldn't ever find his footing again,
(54:50):
but he kept like releasing some works and then eventually
he just gave up on music. It just wasn't working
for him. But then all of a us sudden come
to find out that he is the biggest artist in
South Africa, like he is the the like he is
(55:12):
considered the Beatles in South Africa. Meanwhile, no one anywhere
else knows who he is. And people in South Africa
grew up on his music and really connected to it,
and it was considered for them the soundtrack of their
lives essentially, just like the Beatles are here in America.
(55:37):
And people assumed he died. People just thought he died,
but yeah, but they found him and he played an
arena concert in South Africa. His like pretty much his
first concert. I think it was his first concert out
(55:58):
of music retirement, was an arena show, which, like, can
you fucking imagine being like just this normal dude and
then just like all of a sudden, you're in front
of thousands of people. Yeah, dude, I cannot like it
since it has to be cool.
Speaker 1 (56:17):
I mean, speaking of that, we literally talked about We
had a story on this show where we talked about
Olivia Rodrigo and how she didn't do an arena tour
when she first came out, and they literally had a
whole conversation about how, you know, she wasn't ready for
this and like she needed to take more time and
play little venues and like in the same way, like
you're saying it's like now you're just out of retirement.
Speaker 2 (56:36):
Yeah, and well an arena. He was in his like
seventies when he did it, like he was he was
past the age significantly when he put the music up,
but people still loved it, and like he toured in
South Africa for a long time after that. But it's
(56:56):
such a it's such an amazing story, I think, uh,
and I am shocked that the music wasn't huge in
America because it's some of the best songwriting I've ever heard.
So yeah, you should definitely check it out. But that's
pretty much what I've been listening to. And now I'm
(57:18):
mint for our sponsor Manscaped. No, they're not, they're not. Actually,
can we put that in for it? Allowed? We never
got a Manscaped sponsorship before this end. We also never
(57:39):
got a RAID. We never got a Raid Shadow Legends,
which I'm really we didn't.
Speaker 1 (57:45):
We didn't even get we didn't even get to respond
to the Raid Shadow Legends controversy, which I'm I'm sad about.
You know what was?
Speaker 2 (57:53):
What's the controversy there?
Speaker 1 (57:54):
We don't have time for this, We really do not
have time for this.
Speaker 2 (57:58):
Let's just make this episode another hour long. Maybe that's
what we'll tell We're gonna talk about RAID Shadow Legends
of the last podcast. Yeah, I'm gonna open the depths
of RAID. I never letting
Speaker 1 (58:17):
Just end it.
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