Al Schmitt

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, welcome, welcome back to the Bob Left Podcast. My
chest today is truly legendary. The Dean of engineers Al Schmidt. Wow,
thank you, thank you for having me. Okay, happy to
be here. What work are you most proud of? WHOA, Well,
I think all the records I did with Mancini, Uh,

(00:31):
lots of the stuff I did with Um Diana Crawl great,
some great albums with Streissan, Um Steely, Dan Total. I
mean it goes on. There's so many of them, said
I look up, Okay, some of the great jazz records

(00:53):
you know, Bill Evans and and uh, Jerry Mulligan, Chet Baker,
those kind of things. Yeah, those very Let's drill down
to literally one of my, if not my favorite record
of all time, which is Jackson Brown Lead for the Sky. Right.
You started working with Jackson on his second album, right
Try every Man. How did that come together? Well? What

(01:15):
happened was he was working in another engineering and they
were having problems getting a mix on it and he
called me and uh, I had just finished I think
the Dave Mason album alone together. Yeah, but he called
me and and said, you know what, I give it
a shot. And he knew you from alone together. Yes, okay,

(01:35):
so h yeah, so we got along really well. I
mixed the record. It came out very nice and came
out so then when he was getting ready to do
Late for the Sky, he called me and asked if
I would co produce it with him, and I said sure.
So that was it. Okay, So you're both a producer
and an engineer. Explain the difference of your roles in

(01:59):
the capacities. Well, a real producer is the guy that
UM hires, the contractor who lives to musicians. UM looks
for the material if the artist is not a songwriter,
trying to find songs for him. Fortunately with Jackson, he

(02:21):
wrote all his own stuff. UM. A producer overseas everything
make sure that everybody's on time, and you know, budgets
are being taken care of and and uh and kind
of as a director on a film, similar to that,
an engineer is the guy that captures all the sounds,
the vocals, the guitars, the drums. He's the guy that's

(02:44):
got to get it and make it sound good and
make it sound very musical and and pleasant to the
is hopefully okay. But on a record, because there are
a number of records you were producer, especially in the seventies.
What roles did you perform on those albums that were
different from being an engineer? When when I was just
a producer in the U, I guess it was the

(03:07):
mid sixties. On. My job then was to I had
eleven artists, um, and they went the Sam Cook, Hugo Montenegro, Um,
the women Folk, Glen Yarborough, UM. I just went on
and on. H So my job is to put put

(03:31):
in budgets for each album. Back then most artists did
two albums a year, not like today. So I had
to put in budgets for the artists. For the albums
I had the artist that didn't write material, I had
a fine material for So every Monday was publishers State
of all the publishers. Well, let's go back just a

(03:53):
couple of steps. You said you had eleven acts. How
did you end up with eleven x M? R c
A said you think these guys okay? So at the
time you were on staff at r CU, I was
a stand producer. When what was your tenure at r
c A from when to win as a stand producer? Well,

(04:13):
I think I became a stand producer in nineteen sixty
one and I was there until I left I think
sixties six seven. Okay, Now in that era seven, what
I know, to touch the board you have to be
a union guy, right, absolutely, And that's why I went
on became a producer. I couldn't touch the board anymore.

(04:36):
And when I did, I get called up on the
carpet and they would say, don't do that anymore. And okay,
So you were at r c A from like sixty
one to the late sixties as a producer as a producer,
but you were literally working for them, yes, okay. After
that you went independent, right okay? And then before that

(05:00):
are you independent? Um? Yes? Okay? So what made you
decide to go to work for r c Actually, before
that I was not independent. I had worked for Radio Recorders,
which was a recording to them. That's how I got
involved with henrw Mancini and UH and the Peter Gun
record and UH and I wound up then doing all

(05:22):
of Hanks things recordings and that's when r C A
opened their studio. They hired me. I was the first
higher to work in the news studios at r C A.
And it was on the corner of the Sunset and
Vine and he had a long time the seven NBC building, right, Yeah,

(05:45):
And it was when I was working at was they
had the National News at night or the late news
at night, and you bet your life and crowdcho I
would crowd almost every day down in the hallways. And
every time you go buy mumble something, have me laughing
all the magic word of the day. Um so. But

(06:05):
at the time, our CIA was headquartered in New York, right, yes, Okay,
so that you were when you came on as a producer,
you were in the West Coast, was there? You were
the first producer on the West Coast? No, I was
the first engineer I hide on the West Coast. Yeah.
I wasn't producing at that point. I was just engineering.
So you worked for our CIA as an engineer or

(06:27):
a salary right, and then once you became a producer
you couldn't touch the board anyway, exactly. Okay. How long
did you work for them before you became a producer? Uh?
And a half years? And what caused the switch? Um?
What cause the switch was people would ask for me

(06:47):
on dates all the time as an engineer, and I'd
be the engineer and they'd come in and produce a
committee behind the phone for threality. And I was doing
all the work, talking to legal musicians, and we knew everybody.
And if you make a mistake, you know we're on
the honest system. Raise your hand. You know this guy's
talking to book or or a bookie or something. He's

(07:10):
not paying attention to what's going on here. So and
they were getting all the credit and everything, and I thought, uh,
so I went to my boss, my boss at that time,
with Steve Scholz. And Steve is the guy that signed
Elvis Presley r C A. Yeah, he was major guy

(07:30):
at at r C and I was he in New York, Rilla.
He was part of the time New York, part of
the time in l A. At this particular time, it
was in l A. So I went and I talked
to him. I had gotten an offer from Bill Putnam,
who owned the studio. Um he was getting ready to
kind of slowed down, I guess, and he was going

(07:53):
to hire me from r C A over the United
and uh and so it at lot more money than
I was making. So I told Steve that I wanted
to be a producer and and uh, if if I
didn't get a promotion, I was going to leave. So
we worked out a deal that okay, they who do that,

(08:16):
but I have to bring in an engineer and break
him in on all the Mancini dates, you know, because
he was the top guy then and you know. And
so I said, fine. So there was a guy at
Ready Records that I knew, Jim Malloy, who later on
became a big time producer in country music and one

(08:37):
Grammys and did the Paint Panther record and quite a
few other things. But but he had a lot of
talent and nothing was going on with him there, and
and I liked him, so I talked him into coming
over and then on all the early charade and those
things men say, anythings that he did, I sat next
to him and showed him how I set up and
what I did. And then then I was able to

(09:00):
uh move into doing just producing and uh and I
got away front it. Okay, okay, no one could be
as good as you. But how long did it take
to get Malloy up to uh the right level? I
was with maybe three big sessions quickly. Yeah, it was
pretty quick. He was. He was really good. Okay, so

(09:21):
now you're going to be a producer. Okay, you're not
going to touch the board anymore. Tell us how you
end up with eleven acts? Well, they give they wind
up giving me acts, you know, And that's that's the
first thing. Um. The first record I made that I
produced was by H. H. B. Barnham Um and we
did a thing called take Me Out of the Ballgame,

(09:41):
and we did a funky version of that. It was
just the start of the season we put that out. Then. Uh.
Then I just wound up getting um artist given to me,
you know, like, Um, I went to dinner one night
with Steve Olds and and and and like the big

(10:02):
Posts from New York Show The Imperial and Eddie Fisher.
The next thing I know, I'm producing Eddie Fisher. So
you know, I was. It's not my kind of thing
that that I wouldn't go out and normally buy an
Eddie Fisher record. Uh, but this is it. So I
just went what about trying to make the best record

(10:24):
I could with Eddie Fisher? Okay, So did they have
you signing any acts? I could? And and uh I did.
I turned one or two small acts for small percentages,
but nothing ever happened. Okay, So you're working for our
c A. You're totally on salary, totally okay. So the

(10:47):
record hits, you're not getting any more money, Yeah, yeah,
you do. You get you can make five thousand dollar
bonus at the end of the year, and I made
that every year. So I went from making as an
engineer because you out it over time, seven thousand a
year after was a lot of money, very very good,
to seventeen thousand, five hundred salary and five thousand as

(11:10):
a bonus. So five was it was the dream there.
The dream was to be a producer because they were
the guys that were getting all the glory stuff. You know,
you think, oh, yeah, that's producers. They got all of uh,
the authority they hired, you know, I don't know whatever
it was. It was a and something I always wanted

(11:34):
to do, and when I got into it, I wasn't
sure that when I was doing it that this was
really what I wanted to do and that that story
evolves a little bit. Okay, So you're now the producer
to what degree? You know, over the last fifty years,
things have varied, been the error of the producer, in
the error of the engineer producer. So when you were

(11:57):
the producer other than making sure that your God was
getting the sound right. And you're in the studio, what
kind of input would you give? Well, I was the
guy that hired the arranger. You know, Nels had Nelson
Riddle for the first date. Um, I found a song Faddy.
After going to maybe two thousand songs, I found one

(12:18):
I thought that might be able to work for him,
and we did. It came out and uh it uh.
It made the top twenty uh and and uh singles
uh and it kind of brought him back a little
and helped that way. UM, what do you do you
you you you have an artist. So if he writes songs,

(12:40):
then you figure out, all right, let's hear the songs.
You figure out which the best songs are and which
ones you want to do. UM. If he doesn't right,
then you have to look for material for him and
find songs that that he could do. UM. For the
reason I is being in the studio myself a fraction

(13:02):
of the average engineer. Never mind yourself. I find most
engineers are relatively passive. They'll do what the whatever the
act says. And I find that the producer is the
person who tends to say, whoa that doesn't work. Who Yeah,
that has to change. Is that accurate? Yeah, that's very accurate. Um.

(13:23):
You know, if I'm the engineer and there's an artist
here and a producer next to me, David Foster or whatever,
he's the boss. You know, it's like a director of film.
The producer is the boss. So he wants me to
do something. I can explain why. I don't think it's
a good idea, but if he insists, I do it,

(13:46):
you know, but I want them in front. Okay, So
you're producing in the early sixties. Uh, is everybody cutting
an album or you had doing just singles or what?
It's a little of both, mostly albums. Almost every artist
had two albums a year, you know. So yeah, it

(14:07):
was when you have a lot of artists. Hugo Montenegro
I had at that time. Um, god, Wellegro did? That's right?
Is that your record? Now? I did right right after that.
I worked with him. Okay, to think, so you're working
with those acts. How much pressure do you get from
New York City to have a hit? Um? Yeah, you get.

(14:30):
You get pressure from everybody to have a head, including yourself.
You know, this is what you're striving for. You know,
especially with like someone like Eddie Fisher who had not
had a record in a while, hadn't had done anything
or whatever. I went to a band. You you want
to get something that will get played on the top

(14:51):
forty radio stations and you so you're trying to find
something that's commercial, maybe sing along kind of thing. And
and then of course to hire somebody like Nelson Riddle
to do the arrangement. And and he was quite a
big help on it. Uh yeah, it's it's not not easy.

(15:12):
So tell me about a Monday being publishing day. I
be on Monday would be publishing day. I'd I'd come in. Uh,
I'd see four or five publishers that day. They'd come over.
I had a turntable there, and uh they would bring
these songs and put them on and and listen and
you know, maybe make a note on something that I

(15:34):
put a hold on the song for an artist that
I was thinking about. Uh so that would be it.
And they'd be there a half hour forty medicine, next
guy show up and I do that. And that's but
you know, someone who's listening to material, that's usually a
very tedious process. It is it is, and they hit
the ship ratio is very low. It's that. Yes, there's

(15:57):
a lot of a lot of crap, you know, And
that's that's the thing, uh, trying to get through things. Now,
today demos tend to be highly produced. What were the
demos like back then? Demos were reveling rough. Sometimes the
demo just be voice and piano or guitar and and voice,
or sometimes uh just a small rhythm section done in

(16:20):
a little fucking studio. That's that's pretty much how the
demos aura. So they only started. Demos only started getting
better when some of the demos was starting to become hits. Right,
do you remember any demos it became hits a lot
of things. You know. The other thing is sometimes today
with very produced demos, then they redo and it's just

(16:41):
not as good as the demo. Absolutely, Oh that and
a lot of OCAs. Okay, so let's let's go back. Okay.
How often would you listen on Monday and go, man,
that's a hit? Yeah? Well, I bet I listened to
uh songs for Eddie Fisher before I found the one

(17:03):
song that I thought had a chance to be a hit.
So I called Eddie up right away, drove up to
his house played he yeah, okay, and uh I called
Nelson Riddle find out when he was available book the studio.
Uh let Nelson have his whatever he wanted on the date,

(17:25):
and that was it. We went in. We cut two
songs and uh, well, how did you know? What was
this about? The song that you knew would be the
right way? It was at a time when these sing
along songs we were becoming popular, you know, um, and
people that you know, you could sing along with it
and that'd be the singer and then the choir would
come in or the background voices. Um, and it had

(17:48):
that feel to it. You know. It's just kind of
it was called games that people play. And Okay, when
you're in the studio and you're working, do you know
when something's a hit? Um? Yeah, yeah, you know with yeah,
you say, okay, this is a hit and then it is. Uh,

(18:10):
then you write a per center a time on that.
But there are other times when I mean I made
a record with Dr John Tommy Lapoma produced it. Uh,
keep the music simple. It was a single. We did
the album and all that, but this was keep the
music simple. And if we all I thought it was

(18:31):
a smash when out there and died. That's when it
was on Atlantic. No, no, no, it was one of others. Okay,
because I find there's a very thin layer of stuff
that's like an eleven we go this you and you know, yeah,
and then below that you can be surprised. But there's
a certain level. Okay. So you're working with Eddie Fisher,

(18:53):
who else you're working with in the early sixties, you
hear him and Monterey He'll go, I did an now
want him called Russian Grandual where we did all the
great Russian uh composers on an album. Uh, the Limelighters.
I was working with the Limelighters. That was kind of fun. Yeah. Yeah.

(19:17):
He was a manager Ken who later managed Benson. Yeah.
So okay, you're cutting an album at that point in time.
How long does it take to cut an album? Back then?
Very short period of time because we didn't have all
the things that we have today to tuning and all
those other things. So you captured a performance. We would

(19:39):
always get in the three hour session. We get to
three songs done and uh, three ours. What was the
equipment like then? The equipment was great. We were going
to tape obviously, and it was becoming you know, multi
layer tape right then we were up to track something
U so we had plenty of that. Uh. He would

(20:03):
do three songs or four in a three hour date
and everything was done at the same time, so there
was no overdubs back then. It was all done live
and what you got, you know, it was it was Elvis,
That's what you got. Uh. Did you work with Elvis?
I did on his first record out of the Service

(20:24):
g I Blues. That was amazing. He was really cool. Well, yeah,
he was great. It's the first time in the studio
that I ever worked like on one artist twelve hours
straight where we had foodsin in and we didn't go out.
We didn't do that and it was nice. There was
a lot of fun, a lot of joking around. My

(20:46):
assistant who collected the toquis uh jewelry. Elvis had a
a bracelet turcoise and my assistance had got us a
beautiful he said, he said, my sister, yeah, I collect that,
and he said, well, that's really a nice one. Elvis
took it off and gave it so I said, Elvis, yeah,

(21:10):
I said about the car in the garage because he
had a rose roice. He laughed. We all laughed. You know.
But he gave him the brace and well that was
he the type of guy some people like that it
don't write the row material of the singers. They don't
really show up until everything's arranged. Was he the guy
who was in the studio. He was there all that
all day. He loved hanging out with the guys. He

(21:32):
loved hanging out with the singers, you know, the musicians.
He was a fun guy to be around. And back
then he was just out of his servance. He was
in great shape and you know, great sense of human
life was great for him. And how how much input
did he have into the recordings? Quite a bit? Really, yea,

(21:53):
quite a bit in a sense, well in a sense
that the tempos made sure that the tempos who are
right uh for him? M yeah, he would he'd have input,
not him, but yeah, and he would. That was the
other thing. They would all work together on things, and
you know, hey, what if we did this or what

(22:14):
do we you know? And as I said, we were
doing usually four songs and three hours. Here I am
in the studio twelve hours and we may get one
or two things done, you know. But it was Elvis
and he's using his band yeah, yeah, yeah, these guys. Yeah, okay,
so in the sixties prior to the Beatles hitting any

(22:37):
other you work with Eddie Fisher, you had to hit
with him. Any other memorable experiences, Oh god, as a
producers and engineers producer, Yeah, I did. I did a
great album with Paul Horn and Lala Scheffrin called The
Chess Suite on the Mass Text, which one two Grammys. Uh.

(23:00):
We did the Catholic Mass in chazz form and and
that was we We got put down on that at first.
And there's a priest in New York, father O'Connor, who
was called the Chairs Priest, and we got him to
write the line of notes. We got that done. Yeah,

(23:20):
he did. He heard it in the road to Line
of Notes and yeah, as I think Lolo, you know,
Lolo won a Grammy and so did Paul and so
was Jefferson Airplane. Your first rock act. Yeah, that was
my first real rock act. I produced a group called
the Astronauts and had some modern hits with what was
the hit of the Astronauts baja right? I did them,

(23:45):
and then I did a group called the Liverpool Five,
British group from Liverpool. R c A didn't have a
British act at that time, so we signed the five
guys and they were really good, but they just nothing
ever happened. Okay, So Jefferson Airplane, you make the first
Jefferson Airplane with Sidney Anderson as opposed to Yeah, I

(24:08):
didn't do that one, you did? No, No, who did
that one? That? I think Dave Hassan when I they
sent me up to see the group when I was
staff producer at our ce A n So all this
was going on in San Francisco, and I get a
call to go up to San Francisco to see screwup

(24:28):
that plane at the club. They've already made the first album.
No nothing, I haven't been signed. So I go up
and I see them at this club and line around
the block and listen and stuff sounded great. So so really,
before you thought it was not rough, it was good.
I thought it was good, and I thought that, yeah,
this says, hey, we need a group from San Francisco,

(24:53):
because you know, Moby Grape was going to Columbia. And
just just to be clear, you started off had a
lot of success in the jazz world. What was your
viewpoint of rock music? Did you like getting you said
this is business. No, I did like it. I liked
it and and certain certain aspects of it I loved,

(25:14):
you know. And somebody oh great R and B things,
uh that you know race records, which is what I
grew up. Uh yeah, so I was into that kind
of thing. So you were a Beatles fan. The first
time I heard the Beatles, I was I thought, I
want to hold your hands right, Okay, you know when

(25:39):
I heard saw Jim Pepper killed me on Great Ones
and all my albums. You know, Chaff Emeric was the engineer,
right and didn't amazing? Is he a friend of yours?
Yes he was? And and uh you know I missing
the wonderful nice man. Yeah. And uh so you go
up to San Francisco and you hear the band and
you your thumbs right. Then what happens? So r c

(26:02):
A signs them, So they work out a deal and
they come in and someone produces the first so I
know at that particular time, they had to record in
the Union studio, right right, yeah, right, so they someone
else starting producer record. Yeah, I think that manager or somebody,

(26:22):
and at that time producer record. It was called Jeff
Sanplane Takes Off and it was with Sydney in it,
and then something I don't know what happened, but she
left the band. I have no idea why. And and
Grace came in and Spencer I think that talking too,
but I'm not sure. Um and that was it and

(26:43):
it didn't do much. Then sourrealistic pillow, Okay, well you're
you did that? No, I didn't do that. Did that?
That was Rich Gerrard was the producer. Um and uh.
And they hated that record because is the echo. They
hated the way it was recorded with the echo and everything,

(27:05):
and it's just you know, they said they didn't want
anything to do with right with at that foot because
of that. So they at the time, do they have
to use someone who works for our c Not necessarily,
they would have to use an our Cia engineer. So anyway,

(27:28):
so I I'm assigned to it, and now I am.
I'm doing Eddie Fisher overdubs in the afternoon from two
to five. At five o'clock, I quit with Eddie. I
go up to my office, I meditate for an hour.
I wind up by day to go back down. Eight o'clock.

(27:52):
Jefferson airplane come in and they just trail in, you know,
and it's it's and it goes on. We worked from
eight till maybe an and then all of a sudden
we visited Stought showing up and we got Channis Joplin's
Come hangs out. Ah, so everybody, Jean Luc Goddard, you know.

(28:16):
I mean it was some heavy duty people and his wife,
you know, his wife was she would sit knitting and
I swear, you know, and we're doing acid rock music.
Um so I got to be eleven o'clock, you know,
David Crosby would show up, and then it was all
the drugs and until three in the morning. So this

(28:39):
went on for a while, and it was very very slow,
imagine and burning up the money. But because it's r
c A Studios, it's not like we're using outside, you know,
so so that cuts it back a lot. And and yeah,
we were so anyway, so we're into this a few

(29:03):
months and and I'm I'm starting to uh kill myself
in a sense that I get home, get a couple
of hours sleep, get up, come to the office. I
had other acts that I've rec with and trying to
do budgets. So I called my boss, Ernie all Shila

(29:24):
on the phone in New York and uh. And I said, Ernie,
I can't do this anymore. I said, you know, I'm
killing myself. I said, you know, I'm working with Eddie
Fisher in the afternoon and Jefferson never playing at night.
Don't get out of here three four in the morning.
By time I get home, I'm back and looking for songs,

(29:45):
you know. And I said, I just can't do anymore.
He said, gee, how truck drivers do it? Wow? And
I said, really, Earlie. So yeah, I said, we'll get
yourself a couple of trucks. Because because I quit and
I turned out, I went down, put in my notice,

(30:05):
two weeks notice, and quit. So I went home after
two weeks and I didn't know what I was gonna do.
Where where was it? But you're in the middle of uh,
you know, after we get back and now they're on
their own in the studio. All right, Okay. So I
get a call from the manager of the Jeff Scenaria plane. Al,

(30:26):
we had a lot of trouble. They're trying to stick us.
We don't want these people. They said, we could hire
an outside producer and give him points. Would you be interested?
I said, absolutely, just a little bit. You quit, and
obviously it takes like a little while to decompress. What

(30:47):
was the plan? There wasn't a plan when I quit. None,
that was it. What did I do? Oh my god,
I'm home. Now I'm home. I have a family and
I'm home. I'm not working on there's no check. What
the what? What are you crazy? But it worked out,
you know, And now I was then I was trying
to figure out Okay, now this is I gotta have

(31:08):
a plan on how I get some work. And I
was getting that going when I got the call from
Bill Thompson was the manager of the airplane at the time,
so I would remember I was making twenty five right
with the bonus, So I do uh. After bathing and baxes,
we finally get it on there. Okay, So who makes

(31:30):
the deal? You make the dealer, my attorney, great guy.
So how many points do they give you? Well, they
started out low, but then it went up. We agate
and when I was getting around five, not bad at all. Well,
so my first loyalty check, it's almost fifty dollars as

(31:55):
compared for working a whole game for twenty three five. Okay,
how long as it take it to finish? After bathing
it Baxter. That album took five and a half months,
and was there any pressure to speed it up? Um?
No not At that point. They wanted that they would
call all the time and ask how it's going, and

(32:18):
what's going on? What does it look like? And and
we I said, she did a single while we were
doing that called two Heads, I think, and uh so
they released a single, so there was something out there,
but that was it Saturday Afternoon, won't you try? Was
that always one song together? Okay? So that album comes out, okay,

(32:51):
and that's the album you start to get royalties on it.
Is the band happy with the record? Absolutely? Okay? And
then and then is it uh crown of Creation? Then
we do chronic creation um and then bless its point
of So what was it like making a live album

(33:12):
back then? It was cool. We did half of it
in um San Francisco and half of it in New York.
Um live it wasn live? Yeah, yeah, because sometimes people
you know, and in New York before they went on,
they would King Kong was on the screen. So at

(33:38):
the end when the guy said it wasn't wasn't the
airplane that killed the beast? It was beauty? You know
kind of thing. So I love that and we really
get permission to put that on the record. Really yeah,
I think that opens the record. So, um, how many
shows did you have to record to get it? Oh?

(33:58):
I know when we were in New York it was Thanksgiving,
so we had Thanksgiving together, dinner together, all of us
while they were playing at the clubs. We would do um,
we would called, uh, maybe three or four shows in
each place and and usually have enough. And did you
how many mikes would it take? Well, yeah, quite quite

(34:21):
a few, just a guestimate maybe. And at the time,
did the record plane have a truck or what did
you use to record? Yeah, yeah, there was a truck.
And while he had had a truck in San Francisco,
and uh, we had a truck in New York. I
can't remember who r c A had one? I think
so something like that a live album. How long did

(34:43):
it take you to mix it? The most time takes picking.
You know, you got like you do five shows, right,
so now you've got five versions of that song, so
you gotta listen to each version, figure about the best
one and and take that. So it's time consumings. Did
you ever cut like half of one song with half
of the other. No, I know, not on live. So

(35:06):
I've done it in the studio. Uh yeah many times,
but not on anything alive. Okay, so that album comes out,
tell me about Volunteers, which was a mega production. Yeah,
that's my favorite. It is my favorite too. Yeah, and
you know a quick story. I sent the tapes back

(35:28):
to New York just to be clear because this is predigital. Yeah,
how would you literally get the tapes to New York?
They sent him with a guy. Yeah that they they
mail him. Okay, you know, like ups or whatever something.
I think, yeah, that they had a special mailing department.

(35:49):
So we sent the tapes back and all of a sudden,
my phone rings. Ow, you can't do this. What do
you mean? Up against the wall? Mother is not gonna work?
I said, well, what do you want? They got to

(36:10):
take it out, So I said, well what if they don't.
He said, we're not going to release it like that.
I said, okay, let me talk to him. So I
go back and I talked to uh, get the group together,
but the and they're not gonna You've got to change this.
They're not going to release it like this. They're not

(36:33):
what you either change it or the records are coming out.
They said, fine, fuck them, don't put it out So
I called back until New York. They said, fine, don't
put it out there, and they're not changing it. This
is when I learned a big lesson about record companies.
You know, it's all about the money. Of course, all

(36:54):
of a sudden came out untouched, just the way we
did it, you know, because they wanted the building and
that was a big album. Right. Also, I remember Escible
Blue Day Had doesn't mean shipped to a tree. I
know some of the greatest stuff compared to a stream.
The American Dream doesn't mean shipped to a tree. We

(37:18):
need more of that today, Yes, absolutely, okay, so let's
go back. You do you're now independent by accident, almost
you do after bathing it back. So that takes five months.
Then what well, then I'm into the more with the
Jefferson Aeroplane. And then they started a label called Grunt,
and uh, they like me, so I started doing some

(37:42):
of the Grunt acts and then I wound up doing
the the original haw Tuna record, the acoustic right which
and that that's another story. Well, the story, this story
was we we were up in um San Francisco, and
uh at at a club and um and Ousley is

(38:06):
doing in front of the house The King of Acid.
So I'm I'm drinking apple juice talking Al and I
have Wally had his truck and my engineer was a
guy by named Alan Since and uh, so I finished
everything and now they're going to go on first show
and writing. So I get into truck and I got

(38:26):
a pad and a pencil, and I'm sitting back and
Alan's right there, and we had gotten our sounds at
the beginning. Everything was good, and uh, all of a sudden,
I my feet when two hundred yards and the whole
truck expanded and then back, and it was like, what

(38:46):
the hell was that? And then it happened again, and
then I knew what happened, and I turned to Allen.
I said, Alan, you're on your own. I had a
part I was gonna write now that there's not one
note down on that show. How many shows did record then?
If we recorded I think four four shows. Okay, you
were living in l A. Okay, were you using any drugs?

(39:10):
Was high? Oh? Yeah, okay, yeah plenty. I'm sober now
over thirty two years, right, But yeah, I was obviously
what drugs were you using everything? Okay, cocaine? We of course,
how everybody smoked marijuana, a lot of cocaine. Uh, acid
once in a while. Okay, so had you take an

(39:30):
acid prior to that? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, so anyway, you
know what was going on? What was okay? Did you
because in the lates at least, was we hit the
seventies people using cocaine so they could stay up and work, right?
Did you use it for that? Yeah? We yeah? Yeah,
where would you get it from anybody? I mean you'd
walk into a session and everybody had their own bottle,

(39:51):
like everybody was doing it well. And those were the
days when it was told we were told it wasn't
you know. Uh so yeah, hey, just it's great if
we can keep going and yeah okay. So for this
period from uh like sixty eight to seventy two, are

(40:12):
you working outside of grunt outside of Jefferson Airplane? Um? Yeah? Yeah?
So how you getting that work? Um? I get called,
you know, I have uh my uh my attorney house
messenger help. He would send people to me and so forth.

(40:33):
That's how I wind up doing altro um because of him.
Uh So I was getting worked small work. Uh, I
did uh goop called Ivory, you know Martin a band
like that. How long would it take you to do it? Uh?

(40:55):
Two weeks? Couple of weeks? Okay, So how do you
end up doing a loan together? Do you already know
Tommy Lapuma? Yeah, Tommy, Tommy, Um, I'm at Tommy. In
nineteen sixty he was a song plug up for Metro

(41:17):
Music and he would commend one of the guys that
commend and bring me songs, and we hit it off
right away. Tommy and I we just became friends. And
he would bring me songs Fanny Fisher for this one
and whatever. And I know he was a saxophone player,
and I know he wanted to produce and and do that.
So um, So we became fast friends. And we would

(41:41):
hang out and go out together at dinner and get
a high together, and I'd go to his sections, he'd
come to mind um, and we just became close friends.
So he was doing an album with Dave Mason and
Bruce Bodnick was the engineer, the Doors engineer, and he

(42:02):
had a start time with the Doors on a new
album that he had to leave and start on that day.
So Tommy said, I need somebody to mix this album.
He said, you used to engineer l what do you
mix it? I said, I don't think I could do
it anymore. Tommy years, oh, yeah, it's like riding a bike.

(42:25):
So yeah, So we're back and forth. So finally we
make a little pact. Okay, I'll go in with you.
We'll give it a shot. If I feel I'm not
doing it, you let me back off. And if you
feel I'm not doing it, you gotta let me know
know how feeling. So we make the deal. I go
in and start mixing this record, that beautiful sounding record

(42:46):
that Bruce did, and I'm in heaven. You know, it's
all of a sudden, It's back to where I started.
The reason I'm in this business in the first place
is to be able to move things around. And bale
Let's thing and that was it. And and when I
finished that record, I think we took us a week

(43:07):
to mix it. Uh. It just it was great. That's
great sounding record. I was one of the great records
of all time. One of the things you can play
from beginning to yeah, exactly, great songs, you know. And
they're doing a documentary on coming up soon. So we
did a podcast with you know he can still really
play the guitar. Oh yeah, no, no, yeah, but only

(43:27):
you know, and I know it took more than your
gay look at you, look at me unbelievable stuff. That
was it. That was the best of the best. So
then that comes out, and then I get a call
from Neil Larcher who wants to do a record. So, okay,
it's halfway done with the record. He wants to the

(43:49):
half with me at Sunset Sound. So we set up
the whole studio, which actors is again uh yeah. We
set up the studio like a living room and and
then we were doing on the Beach and so we
did three songs there. And there's another story with that.

(44:13):
People would come in from the record company and we
have one multi track tape machine that we're recording on,
and people would come in and want to hear what
we were doing. So we'd be in one song and
so we don't have to take the tape off, put
another tape on and playing what we did and everything else.
So we finally decided to make to a little two

(44:38):
track a couple of rough so we didn't have to
keep doing it. Well, that's all well and good. We
finished the record. Everything's great. Yeah, when are we going
to mix? Neil? Oh no, no, I like the rough mixes.
I said, oh no, Neil, He said, yeah, no, I

(44:58):
think that's exactly what I want. I said, look, let
me go in and do it, let me do it.
I'll pay for it myself at all. But I know, no, no,
this is it. I that was it. So there was
no more arguing or or anything else. And and kneel
to this day. Every time he sees me, or he'll

(45:20):
see somebody else, say something about it. Oh yeah, ask
God if he still wants to remix. He still does that. Well.
It's funny because his first album came out and he
was pissed about the mix and he redid it. Yeah.
So uh and you do you ever work with Neil again? Yeah? Yeah,
I work with Neil quite a bit. I just did
a hundred piece of orchastra with him at m CHAM

(45:43):
just recently. Yeah. Yeah, that his two albums ago. You
know it. We had choir and orchestra and everything done live.
He sang live right out in the middle of the orchestra.
This is amazing. Okay, So how did you end up
working on Asia Steely Dan. Oh I got a call.

(46:07):
Uh Gary Kats, did you know? H oh yeah yeah.
And so I get a call and hey, we have
a we have a song or two. Uh we want
you to mix. So I said so that. No, no,
I didn't track anything on that album, just mixed two songs.

(46:30):
So yeah. I was working at sound Labs almend Steiner
on the studio and um, so I'm sitting there waiting.
They bring the tapes in a bunch of limiteds that
they were thinking about using, and so it's the song
is PEG. So they take off and I'm messing around

(46:51):
with with PEG and so I get a fairly good
balance on it, you know, And I turned the monitor
down and I'm going at the meats, like checking out
everything great. Uh, little did I know they walked in
while I was doing that. And then I turned the

(47:12):
monitor up and I had this pretty good mix that
I had done before they came in, and they freaked
out and Gary has it, al can mix a record?
What I have been hearing it? It was that kind
of thing, and I mean it would blown away, But
the long run, it was PEG was the song, and

(47:35):
we wound up mixing it and there were in those days.
There was no automation on a car, so everybody had
a part. So you know, one guy right, one guy added,
echoed to a guitar part, another guy did this, and
so it was all They were like four of us
over the board, and it was all about a performance.

(47:58):
And we spent almost twelve hours on PEG to get
that the way it was because every time if I
get it right, someone else school up right. Everybody had
to be perfect. And what was the other song you
did on Asia? On Asia? Deacon Blues? That's my favorite
song on Asia they call out Alabama the Crimson type.

(48:24):
Oh god, that's a great song. Okay, So um, let's
go back to the beginning. You're from New York, Okay.
Your parents born where? Okay? How many generations have they
already been here? Your family? Um? God, on my mother's side,
back during the mayflower time. Really yeah yeah, Connecticut Yankee. Um.

(48:49):
On my father's side, his mother came over from Germany
when she was three. His father was here before and
he was born here I think his father and he
was a blacksmith. Yeah yeah, he did horn shoes and
he were and then he worked for the Mack Trucking company.

(49:12):
What do you do for them? Right? Wow? Okay, So
you grow up where I grew up in Brooklyn, So
what was it like? Back then? It was like mean
streets if you ever seen that movie, Yeah, it's pretty Yeah,
that's a tough area, tough neighborhood, a lot of gangs,
out of fights, a lot of that kind. And how
did you fit in there? It's probably just like having

(49:34):
a little Turkey kid, you know, getting in trouble and
all um. I was. I was really blessed in the
sense that my father's brother, Harry Smith is reallyam with Schmidt,
but he changed it because of the German sentiment. And
back then he um. He was a recording engineer for

(49:58):
um brun s Wicks. Yeah, he did the sing sing sing,
you know, Benny Goodman all use. So he had a
recording studio and when I was little, my my recording studio. Yeah,
Harry Smith Recording where in New York City on to
West and it was the first independent recording study in

(50:19):
New York. Sanata did his first vocal ever in the
studio there. Yeah, It's just amazing time. So we would
go over and visit him when I was a little
like he he didn't have any children, and so, but
he was besides my uncle, he was also my godfather.
So he treated me like I was his son. And

(50:44):
and I was always amazed by everything, and you know,
and so he showed me and watching big bands record
and uh so when I got to be about eight,
I was able to get on the subway by myself,
walk a few blocks, get on the sub boy, get over,
get off at walk back one block to his studio.

(51:06):
And I'd spend the weekend with my uncle. And you
literally sleep at his house or you'd stay at his house.
He had a beautiful apartment on Riverside Drive. Back then,
my father was making like seventeen bucks of And at
the end of the day on Sunday, when I was
time for me to go back, my uncle would give
me a dollar bill. Wow, and I would give it

(51:28):
to my mom and and he knew my dad wouldn't
take it right if it too proud for that, But
that's given it to me to a gift to my mom.
She make sure it went to good use. Okay, just
at the time. How many kids in the family at
that time there were three? And where are you in
the hierarchy? First, you're the oldest. All the hopes and

(51:49):
dreams are in you. And at school you're good or
bad at school. I was good at school. I didn't
like school, but I was good at school. And um,
I was good at math, which you need to be
good math to be an engineer. Yeah, yeah it, Um,

(52:11):
I just I didn't like school, you know. So when
I was like thirteen and I stopped going to my
uncle's studio, I started playing hooky from school and I
would go over to see Sinatra at the Paramount Theater
with Tommy Dossie and for a quarter. For a quarter
you could um get in right, and then we would

(52:32):
hide so we could stay and see a couple of shows.
It was, you know, it was really okay. So why
did you stop working with your uncle? I stopped. I
started hanging out with a gang, and I started getting
in some trouble. And series, what was the most trouble
you got it? Well, I got other times. I got arrested,

(52:53):
never booked on anything, but arrested for being where I
shouldn't have been, and so forth. So it taught me
a less and and it kept getting worse. And um,
so from the time I was like thirteen and a half.
On my seventeenth birthday, my parents signed for me to

(53:16):
enlisted the navy. Okay, had you finished high school? I
just finished high school. Okay, just to go back for
a second. Are you popular in school or just one
of the people there or whatever. Yeah, I was pretty popular.
I mean I was had a lot of friends. You know,
he's to hang out. I played softball all the time.
I played a lot of sports. Um and yeah, I

(53:37):
know I had a lot of Okay, so your parents
enlisted you because they wanted to get you out of trouble. Yeah, yeah,
I said yes because I knew that I was going
to wind up in jail or something. I mean, you know,
we were just running, uh but you know, money for
the bookies, that kind of stuff they were. They were

(53:58):
going out to the hirpool and stealing out there. And
also I knew it was like somebody taught me on
the show and get out of here. You're gonna be
in trouble. And so I'm good and I went to
I went to Great Legs. Look at Wait, Wait Wait,
which brims of the services Navy. I was in the
Navy and went to Great Legs. My i Q is

(54:21):
very high. So when we get out of boot camp. Uh,
the guy said, what do you want to do in
the navy? Okay, I said, I just want to be
a Poston's maid, you know, somebody on the deck. No, no, no,
I Q was too high for that. So they sent
me to school in Washington, d C. Communications School, and

(54:43):
it's decoding and how to break down COLDE and Russian
code and this kind of stuff. So I do that
for a year. Just to be clear, you're listened the navy.
And he thought, in the back of your mind, this
is right after World War Two, that maybe there's a
ward you're gonna get you off. You know, there was
no at seventeen. You don't think and you you don't

(55:06):
think you ever going to be the one that's going
to get hurt anyway. So yeah, so that that was
pretty cool. But I M, you're taking the communication of
course you were. Yeah, yeah, it was that. And then
so you know, in Washington at that time, it was great.
UM people like uh, Lady Day she couldn't work in

(55:29):
New York because of the UM cabaret. She couldn't get
a cabaret license because of the drug use. And that
was a big problem back then. So all of those
artists would come down to Washington, d C. Which was
where I was going to school. And so, I mean
every weekend there was a place called Captain Tom's. There

(55:50):
was some other clubs, but we had the best of
the best jazz artists coming down there all the time.
So so every weekend it was you know, it was
just great. And I get to see all these people
and and enjoy enjoy that. So, um, I got out
of the service. Over two years and I got out.

(56:14):
I was thinking of going to City College. Um. I
was only home for like ten eleven days and my
uncle called me and he said, a friend of mine
has a studio and then looking for an assistant. Would
you be interested? I said absolutely. I didn't know what
I was gonna do, so he said, great, okay, uh

(56:38):
go over and talk to him. I'll set everything up.
And did. I went. I talked to the guy and
he was my uncle's best friend. Right. Yeah, I knew
I was going to get the job, you know. So okay,
reported Monday, nine o'clock. Where was this this was on?
This was in the Steinway Building on fifty seven, right
across from Carnegie Hall. And you're living where I'm living.

(57:02):
In Brooklyn with your parents. No no, no, no, yes,
yes with my parents. Right. Um, So you get the job.
I get the job. I show up. I knew I
was going to get anybody show up Monday nine am.
I get their divorce. Takes me uh, and he introduces me.

(57:22):
There's the two engineers who worked there. One was a
German engineer who wore a monocle I swear and and
even a white coat and with click as heels kind
of thing. And the other was this young guy about
seven years old, Tommy Dowd. Wow. So I look at

(57:45):
tom he time he looks at me, and it was
like instant friendship or something. So that was it. So
he bought me a notebook and then I was under
his wing and we worked together at that studio for
two years, and then the studio folded. He went to
another studio, and I went to a place called Nola Recording,

(58:10):
which is recording studio and a and a rehearsal hall.
So I was there a year and Tommy called me
and said, the studio that I'm at looking for another guy,
and I recommended you come on over, and I went
over an interview and I got that job. The name

(58:30):
of that studio that was called Fulton Recording, which later
was brought by Oh god, I can't think the company now,
I think of it. Um anyway, So Fulton and it
was Tommy and me and uh an engineer by name
of Bob Doherty, and and we were doing all the

(58:54):
Lette commercials, look chop all those things, cigarette commercials. Okay,
lot when you were at the first studio, UH, were
you cutting music or we're cutting commercials. We're doing a
little of everything. We we did Voice of the America
stuff on six transcription disc shows and in different languages.

(59:19):
Tell Us of Alice, his whole family would come and
they would in Greek. They would do these shows that
would get broadcast over to Greece. UM. So it was
that was interesting. But we also were doing all the
Atlantic work and Prestige records, uh, national records. There was

(59:40):
a lot of little labels sitting in UH. So he's
doing all this work, um and and getting to do
uh some of the great Atlantic acts. You know, Tom
worked ultimately with them. So you're working in this studio
with Tom and the other guy. What are the hours

(01:00:02):
in that eround? Uh could be any time and you
know if even if you worked late till eleven, you
still have to be in in the morning around nine
in the morning. So um um, yeah we did. There
wasn't a lot of late late stuff, but yeah, you

(01:00:22):
know it goes seven to ten sometimes. Okay. So how
so when did you get married in this picture? So
I got married? Uh, right in the middle. Okay. So
how hard was it? How understanding that your wife had
to be about these hours? Uh? Yeah, she she was
pretty good about it. I think she was happy we
got married just to get out of the environment she

(01:00:46):
was in, which was not very good. You know, her
parents were uh splitting up and having so to meet her.
I never read a dance then. Back then, Yeah, it
was a danceing. Oh we have Charlie Vntoura and Bob
for the people, and everybody be out there jute bugging
and dancing, and you know there'll be a lot of

(01:01:07):
single guys, single girls. You go and ask some of
the Hanson. Yeah, it was a lot of fun. Okay.
So you're working at the studio with Tom and then
what happens next, Well, I'm there three months and they

(01:01:29):
my boss says, okay, Saturday, you're in on all by yourself.
There's just a three little demo records, one of ten
one or twelve one or two, and you do that.
So the guy comes in. First guy, he plays guitar
and sings the song he wrote for his daughter, We

(01:01:49):
caught an Ascetate at seventy eight done. We give it
to him. He gives me fifteen dollars and he leaves.
The other guy comes in. He sits down at the
piano and he plays a song, h happy birthday for somebody.
So I cut the asketa, I give it to him
and fifteen bucks and knee ladies. So now I'm waiting

(01:02:12):
for a guy by name of Merca to show up.
So the elevated toway was opened up and all these
musicians start coming out, and I said, WHOA, what's going on.
We're on the second floor. We're here for the record
date No Mercy, Mercy Records, Mercer Allington, do Gellington's son.

(01:02:34):
I said, oh no, no, there's a mistake. And here's
Johnny Hodges standing in front of me and Billy straight
on and on. You know, he's it's like Babe Ruth
and Joe the main exactly like I mean, my heart's
going like this, and so I get on the phone
and called Tommy. No answer. Back then there were no
cells and call no answer. I don't know what the

(01:02:57):
hell to do. So we only had an eight input console,
and I had that book that Tommy bought me, and
I all the diagrams how they set up and what mikes.
So I got the book. When I set up, put
the mics away. They were and and the guys kept
showing up and they were sitting down and laughing and

(01:03:18):
doing whatever, and I'm in the control and trying to
figure out what the how I'm going to do this
and do Gellington walks and he's got this gorgeous brown
suit on. I mean, it's just you know, the way
he had his head done and all. And I said,

(01:03:38):
Mr Ellington, there's a huge mistake here. He said, why
is that. I said, well, they thought this was just
a little demo and and I'm not qualified to do
anything like this. He said, what do you mean. I said, well,
I've never done anything like sending. He looked out and
he said, everybody looks comfortable out. I said, yeah, but

(01:04:02):
you know that's in here that I'm worried about. He said, no, no, no,
don't We'll get through it. Don't worry, just relaxed. And
he really did everything to calm me down. I think
he thought that if I don't calm him down, we're
not going to get anything. So we did. He called
me down, kept patting my thigh right next to me.
Don't worry something, we're going he said. Then you know,

(01:04:23):
I hit the sack. Oh, saxophone sound wonderful, you know,
hit and stuff like that. He's nice comments, and so
we got through it. I did four songs and three
or four songs in three hours, and that was it.
And that was my first section, the first thing, and
you know, Duke Ellington, Oh my god, I couldn't believe it.

(01:04:45):
So then three weeks later, I'm doing the same thing.
So now I finished it too. Just to be clear,
this is the very first studio you work out of
the third first, So so I finish up. I'm doing
the same think demos and the last ones at two
and I'm finished. I'm getting ready, you know, gonna go

(01:05:05):
home and phone rings. I pick it up. It's herb
Abramson Anderson let me said, hey, how was anybody in
the studio this afternoon? I said, no, no, no, nobody
here he said, I'm going to bring a group over here.
Cool with that? I said, yeah, sure, you know, I
didn't want to say no. So he brought over this
group and uh, and we caught two songs. One song

(01:05:30):
was Skylark, which is the B side, and the other
was a song called Don't You Know I Love You,
which became a huge race record hit, I mean a
big head. It was on a chart for like twelve
weeks in a row, and I had recorded it, So
now I had to Kellington and I hit a race
record hit, R and B hit back then. So then

(01:05:52):
Atlantic started using me on more things when Tommy was
busy doing something. I started doing Clyde mix at a
uh Martin jazz quartet, Chris Conna, you know that kind
of stuff. So I was really starting to hone up
on on things and how to do things and learning

(01:06:13):
more all the time from Tommy. So that case you're there,
then you go to the other place. Now you're back
with Tommy, mac with Tommy, and you're cutting what cutting everything?
A lot of Tico records, Tito Pointe, Tito Rodriguez, Machito, Uh,
Cam Callaway, Uh, you know a lot of that. I'm

(01:06:35):
doing a lot of World Pacific Jazz records, Jerry Mulligan,
the songbook, chet Chet Baker, uh, Bobby Brooke, maholl you know,
all those great jazz things, and and the studio was
pretty famous for the jazz. A lot of jazz artists
like to work there. The studio was built once again,

(01:06:58):
the name of the studio was Full and Record. Yeah,
and it was the later bought by Coastal Recording Recording,
and then the name changed the Coastal But yeah, it
was Tommy Dowd me trying to think the other two
guys Heinz Kuberko was there and engineers, and so how

(01:07:19):
did that play out? How long were you there? I
was there four years? Yeah, I was there about four years.
What kind of money? Uh, good money because yeah, top
union money. So I was doing really well. I was. Yeah,
I'm very happy. And still after four years. What happens. Well,

(01:07:41):
Dick Bark, who owned World Pacific Jazz, he would use
me all the time on his great jazz albums and uh,
so we were there doing street swingers or something and
uh he Jimmy Duffrey, you know some of the great
old and he said, now you want to move to California.

(01:08:03):
They don't have to fly all the way to New
York to use you. And I, you know, we joke
and he laugh and I said, all right, we'll give
me a job and I'll come out. That was it.
Three weeks later, I got a call on the phone,
tick Pocket, How I got your job out here? The
best studio in in l A. They know you work.

(01:08:23):
They want you good money, shers. If you want it,
you're gonna let me know. In two weeks, I talked
it over with my wife. We had two kids at
that time. Um, I was still a baby myself. Um,
and we did. We we moved out to Burbank. That

(01:08:46):
was what year. That was the same year the Dodgers moved.
You moved with the dogs, moved with the Dodgers. I
was an Ardent Dodger fan all my life, so yeah,
I moved with the dogs. So you moved to Burbank?
What was burd Bank like that? It was already nice.
It was nice. Say, you know, it's small. We we
have a nice little Uh. We had a two bedroom

(01:09:08):
condo and and it was nice and uh we had
some friends that lived down the street. It was kind
of it was it was nice I was working most
of the time, so it wasn't a matter of justin.
You were in the darkness the whole time. Yeah right, Okay,
So that you go to work for this studio. The
name of that is um that is radio recorders. Okay,

(01:09:30):
so you're radio recorders and that ultimately ties up with
moving to our c A okay eventually, yeah, okay. So
when you're recording at that era, okay, when you start
with Duke Ellington, what does equipment like? Well, the equipment
there are a lot of good microphones back then. You
know the great um Um Neiman microphone that have that

(01:09:55):
forty seven everybody you know that came out in se
and thank yeah, I think so, and they you could
buy one back then for three d bucks. I tried
to try that today. So the equipment we were starting
to get um good uh two microphones and things. And

(01:10:19):
one of the things we were Tommy and I and
the engineers back in New York, we were using those
two mics a lot. When I came to California, they
weren't using them as much, and I started like putting
it on the bass instrument. Bass players were coming in

(01:10:40):
and saying, oh man, I love that sound on my bass.
Other engineers would come were using ribbon mics. They were
using different things, different ribbon or whatever, you know, same
with the drums. So you know, we had we were
using different microphone techniques back East and they were out

(01:11:00):
here with different mics on different instructs. And that's how
I started doing what I knew I could do, and
I started getting a lot of work. Then they were
starting to record this record with Hank Mancini, Henry Mancini,
who was an arranger and I worked with him as
as an arranger on different things, and the nicest guy.

(01:11:21):
But uh Bones how who is an incredible engineering producer. Um,
he was doing the record and evidently cy Rady who
was the producer and Bones, something happened. But he the
Bones said look I'm not going I can't do this

(01:11:42):
anymore and left or whatever. But all I know is
I got grabbed by the shirt collar and said, okay,
all you're doing this. I wanted up finishing the Peter
Gun album. And then because of that, I started doing
all the Mancini stuff. And then because of that, I
started doing a lot of the r c A stuff. Um,

(01:12:05):
you know, right, Peterson and some of the acts that
they had back then. Okay, But going more about the equipment,
you've lived through a lot of evolution. First, talk about
the boards. What did you feel you know, it was there.
The big thing in the seventies was the Knives boards
that all was of a suddenly went to SSL and digital.

(01:12:26):
What's your view point on all that stuff? Well, I
don't use digital boards. I don't like them tonight my question? Okay, why,
I don't know. I just don't like the way they sound.
I like analog boards. My favorite board is a Nive
analog board. I love the preamps, I love the way
they sound. But but there are a lot of great
boards out there, uh that I couldn't work on. Quad

(01:12:48):
was a really good one. That's you know, many many
nice good consoles. I'm not a big SSL fan. Um
it seems the titles turned to ends them anyway. Yeah, yeah,
so I just everything just it didn't sound musical enough
for me. And how about when we went to digital?

(01:13:09):
What do you think about that? Well? I hated at first,
and I was not going to go I mean I
did like, um, I did a digital album with with
a group on Warner Brothers. I can't think of the
name of the group, now it'll come to me. But
what would happen? Would you know? We were this is

(01:13:31):
with the Mitsubishi recorder. Yeah, two tracks. Yeah, that's what
we used on Barbara a lot. She had her own
or Columbia gave her a machine. I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah,
so she had a machine. What else did she have?
She had that, that's for sure, and that was on

(01:13:52):
every session, so she would truck it in or for
wherever it was. Yeah, I'm working with this act on
Warner Brothers and What Happens um, which I had to
do the digital album, Ah right right, Yeah, it just
didn't sound real musical to me, you know, so I
just stayed away from it, and everybody was starting to

(01:14:13):
go to k you know. And so when it went
to n and they were able to, you know, elevate
the quality, then it started sounding really good and you
couldn't tell the difference. So my assistant when we were
doing we were doing something with Tommy Lapuma and Diana

(01:14:35):
and um, so we recorded it on analog tape and
pro tools at at. So when they came in to
listen and they they didn't want to convert and wanted
we just switched back and forth from the analog to
the digital because we had them locked up and they

(01:14:55):
couldn't hell the difference. They didn't even notice we were
so that was great, Okay, all right, we'll do that.
But she liked the piano solo and take two. Let it,
didn't want to take three. So in protels, he just
my assistant dropped it in, took the other and it
was done. It took thirty seconds. If we had to

(01:15:19):
cut tape and do all that, it would take in
a half an hour. And now you have musicians hanging around,
you know, waiting, uh, while we're cutting tape and and
doing this way. We didn't have any of that. So
that was it. That was the conversion. And from then on,
I've just talked to everybody and I go, I do
everything at one now, and uh, I love the quality

(01:15:42):
and it's just a reproduction we have to worry about
exactly right. Okay, So when you moved into pro tools,
your assistant ran the pro tools rig and still at
this point he's the guy who's running it or we
are you familiar with I can they sent me up
so I can start and stop and go back and fourth.
But yeah, I don't want to get into all that

(01:16:04):
other stuff of editing and pro tools, not my thing.
How important is the room? The recording room? Wow? Probably
the most important. Uh yeah, if you have a good
room to start with. If you have a bad room,
it's almost impossible to get a good sound. Uh. You know,
you've really got to have to use your imagination on

(01:16:26):
on on how you want to do things. But a
good room is you know, you can put Mike's almost anywhere.
You're going to get good reflection, you know. And and
the fact that you get leakage makes things gives more dimension,
It makes things sound bigger and more open. But leakage

(01:16:47):
would make it harder to mix right, Well, it depends
on on the leak at. You know, the condom leaks.
That's why I always tell everybody you want to use
great microphones, because when you get leaka, you on a
good microphone, you're getting good leak at and that is
a good thing. When you got a cheap mic and
you're getting that, say, Lenka, you don't want that. That's

(01:17:09):
just cluttering up stuff. So now is a good room
magic or there are certain things that you can do
to make it a good room and someone's constructing. Well
I think, yeah, I think that you can help make
a room into a good room. Um, but it would
have to start out to be reasonably good in the beginning. Um. Yeah,

(01:17:32):
you know, in good rooms sometimes that just accidentally happen.
Some guy puts a couple of things up and it's magic. Now,
of the studios you've worked in, which ones have good rooms? Well,
look the original Larca studios at Sunset and Mind they
had two rooms there, A and B, and those are

(01:17:54):
two of the best rooms I've ever worked in. Then
does that because accident or they have engine years come
in and the engineers come in and do everything and
and um and tested with a lot of testing was done. Um.
Another great room is a room like uh MJM scoring stage. Right,

(01:18:15):
Oh my god, that's Sony scoring stage. It's it's a
gorgeous room and you know, you look at it and
it looks like, you know, it's not even done yet,
right right, But but the sound in the room, it's
just amazing. Staying with that because they mixed movies and
there's an engineer mixes the music in. Have you ever
done that? No? No, I I did a lot of

(01:18:37):
TV stuff early you know. Um, when I worked at
R c A as a staff engineer, we would do
a lot of documentaries and that stuff, but not a
lot of movies, although I got to work with all
the great scorers you know. Okay, So today everything is flipped.
A lot of people make these records digitally at home

(01:18:59):
because they don't want to pay that money. Yeah, you
side there, tell me your take. I hated. I I
just hated when you know, I I hear people you know,
just it's it's a quality of the stuff. What's happening
is the people set up studios at home, and then

(01:19:21):
they don't have money to really buy the best equipments
to they buy cheaper mixtup the stuff too, and the
recording in their bedroom, and and the quality is just
it's not good. And and I don't use plugins, so
it's I and I don't use much eque or compression

(01:19:41):
on on anything I do. Um, And so I find
when I get something that I have to mix that
was recorded in somebody's bedroom or something, I am using
every thing that I don't use to try to make
it put it in a place where it's acceptable at least. Okay,

(01:20:05):
But a lot of companies can't pay for those big
rooms anymore. True, So how does that affect your sessions?
And it affects quite a bit because I don't get
we don't get as much work, you know. And if
you can get somebody to to do fixes and ovadubs
in their bedroom, um, especially if it's just a guitar part,

(01:20:29):
that kind of stuff, Yeah, you save a lot of
money because we're not selling records. You know, the seventies
and eighties, My god, forget it. You know that this
was a will that ever happen again? I doubt it? No, Okay,
But staying in that era and the changes, let's talk
about the reproduction. Obviously cassettes were inferior for no other reason.

(01:20:52):
There was a high speed reproduction. But what is your
view vinyl versus c d S versus streaming in terms
of the reproduction end on the reprint. I only listened
to Vinyl at home, and that's really yeah, that's it.
I have a great audio technical turntable pick up, great speak.

(01:21:14):
I have a really nice system and and I like,
let's stop there. What what is your system? You have
the audio technical it's an audio technical pick up. My
speakers are the tannoy uh self powered speakers. I'm not
sure the model number. I've had him about ten years yet,
for like five eight thousand bucks or something ten years ago.

(01:21:38):
And then I have um sony uh power. I am okay,
So what do you use to mix when I mix
it in the studio? Tannois have a specific sound, so
I was wondering if you use in the studio. I
used Tannoise. Yeah, and I what I use uh dog sacks,

(01:22:00):
Roma ducks right. He He came up with the speakers
and it's a Tannoy ten inch driver. And then with
Mastering Lab cabinets and crossovers, and I've been using those
for the last fifteen years. Wait, wait to the crossovers.

(01:22:20):
What's the tweeter. It's it's all Mastering Lab. Yeah. Okay,
So and you bring them yourself when you're mixing. Yeah,
any other gear you bring it back. Bring a lot
of gear. I bring all my preamps. I have about
twenty of those, um um A couple of compressors that

(01:22:42):
I have. Uh well, I use it the two tech
three band and I just used it on the output
of the bus, but I just tap it. I use
it mainly to get that tube sound from the eck.
And what about digital reverb? Yeah, well, um, I'm lucky

(01:23:06):
that I work at Capital all the time. We have
the great live chambers. But I have a percasty. I
have a six thousand digital reverb. I have a two eighty. Um,
so when I set up reverbs, we set up eight
to ten different reverbs. I try. I don't try to
put more than one thing in any reverb. Once in

(01:23:31):
a while it might be two in one, but usually
you know, if I if I have the vocal on something,
a reverb on the vocal, nothing else will go in
that reverb. Now, over time, sounds have changed in terms
of what's in wet dry? Whatever is your sound stayed

(01:23:52):
consistent or to what to grieve? You've been influenced by
the marketplace? No, no, I think my sounds say pretty consistent.
I've no mean one of those that worry about Um,
it's certainly now. And you know, when I make a record,
I want to make it. Hopefully it's going to be
ahead and uh, and somebody's gonna enjoy the benefits of that.

(01:24:12):
But I don't. I don't go on my way to
to try to make something it's something it's not. I'm
not sure if I said that, you know you did?
You did. Let's go back to the vinyl. Okay. Vinyl
is an inherently limited medium. Okay, Now, I understand completely
if the it was recorded on tape and the whole

(01:24:35):
chain is the analog, But what if it's recorded digitally.
Does it make any sense to listen on vinyl? I
don't know if that would enhance it in any way. Uh,
I don't know, you know, And that's something I should
check out when I get home. I'll check that out

(01:24:55):
if I can see what difference there is. Well, I
mean of the records you're listening to at home or
most of them recorded on tape, or you have something
recorded digitally, oh, something that we recorded because you know,
I've heard different things because they say, well, if you
take one ninety two, which you don't get in you
know on most other services, and you know, I know
it's it's an I've always felt that. Yes, in the

(01:25:18):
early days, with the records that are cut analyze, they're
much better on vinyl. But the digital ones, I'm not sure. Okay. Uh,
let's go back to um acts. You worked with Toto,
Steve Lucas. There's a good friend of mine, and he
said he was the hot session guy. Okay, and then

(01:25:38):
someone I don't remember said it said, listen, you have
a window and then you're done. No matter how good
you are, you better find something else. Have you found
that to be true? Um? Yeah, I think there are times,
you know, and with me, since I've been doing this
for so long, I've been up and down that stage
a couple of times. Well I've been hot and you

(01:26:00):
know I can't you know, the phone is bringing off
the hook. And then other times when I'm scuffling around
looking for something to do, and then something comes along
and I'm all of a sudden, I'm a flavor of
the month again. Um, and I'm jammed. You know. So
when it's when it's low, is there enough work or

(01:26:22):
what do you do? What do you think there isn't
enough work? When it's slow, and I go, I hang
out with other engineers, so it's slow at the same time,
we'll go have lunch and do that kind of stuff. Um.
You know, I I have my wife and I collect
the art so well heavily into that. Um. So when

(01:26:45):
I'm off and we have time, we go We'll go
to New York. Uh go to the museums, go to
uh galleries, look at different art and so forth, and
uh so we buy and sell things. And because you
have that as a hobby now people professionals it. You know,
at large, a lot of the prices going way down

(01:27:07):
if you had to adjust your prices because of the
change of the marketplace. Absolutely, what I get now is
somebody will call me and and look how I got
this amount of money? It's all I got. I'd love
to have you and mix my record, and I'll talk
to him about it and what's going on and what

(01:27:28):
do you think you want me to do it? And
then okay, I'll say, all right, you know you we
got to work out to deal with the studio and
then and then I'll get to rest and I work
it out that way because there are acts that I
really like to work with. I mean, at times I
do stuff for nothing and because I like the artist,

(01:27:50):
I've got nothing to do if I can help somebody.
You know, there's a new saying out now that kindness
is the new hip. Wow, I haven't heard that. Yeah,
And it is the kind of it changes everything that
around you when you're kind two people, and and I

(01:28:11):
see it all the time in the studio. Okay, let's
just assume are most of your gigs now both recording
and mixing, or you have some separate mixing gigs or what. Yeah,
I have a few separate mixing gigs. I just mixed
the record uh a little while ago for New York
artists at UH, I started recording a two years ago

(01:28:35):
at Cherney and I, Yeah, I'm the best, and we
brought her in the studio in New York and started
uh recording a few things. But this group I belong
to the Meta Alliance anyway, a little bit slower, you
and Ed would have worked at the same time. We

(01:28:56):
we we were, Yeah, because we teach the Metal Alliance
teaches um we're do it a couple of times a
year at a different studio. And so whenever we do
Ed and I worked together and we bring in an act,
whether it's uh Tuny Sutton to you know whoever, uh,

(01:29:17):
and we we uh, we we could do it together.
So okay, just little bit, what's the Metal Alliance? The
Metal Alliance is Uh. It was Phaeromone Me, Ed Cherney,
Elliott China, Um, George Massenburg, Chuck Ainley, Frank Philippetti, and uh,

(01:29:40):
unfortunately two of them are gone now, so we're getting
going to have to get some replacements. Okay, how did
it end up happening? It ended up happening Like we
got together and talked about, you know, we're getting there's
so much new equipment coming out all the time, and
we wanted to do something like the good Housekeeping Seal

(01:30:00):
of approval. So we made it fact that we would
go over a gear and we would all listen, and
if we unanimously liked it, we would recommend it. If
one person didn't like it, it it didn't get recommended. Okay,
And that's what we were trying to do. How much

(01:30:21):
gear would you we value? Microphones, preamps, all contact things? Okay,
So you were telling the story, you were working with
an act and recording it with ed two years ago,
and now what's happening now? Oh? Well, she two years
ago and and she started going around the country doing

(01:30:42):
gigs and all, and she would record in different places,
go back to New York and record, and so she
finally got the whole thing finished and I just finished
mixing it for her and it just came out two
weeks ago. Okay, if you're if you're tracking a capital.
Where do you tend to mix? I like to mix
it capital, Yeah, I like to mix. I like I

(01:31:05):
like to mix in studio a believe it or not,
which is to pick room. But see it's a room
that I do most of my mixing and it's a
little cheaper. And if they have people in the studio
and a, I can't mix it right. So and is
the okay? How hard is it to get time these days? Uh?

(01:31:28):
It varies. Sometimes you trying to squeeze things in other
times there's plenty of time. I was leaving up to
Paula Salvador. She you know, she knows my schedule. Yeah,
we're figured it out. So, Um, what is your special sauce?

(01:31:50):
What makes what is it that you do to the
you want to reveal that makes your makes you head
in shoulders above the average person? Well, I don't know how.
You know, that's a tough question for me to answer.
Somebody else who should answer that. Um, But the fact
that I love what I do so much. My father worked,

(01:32:12):
He never took a day off in his life, and
he worked hard all his life, and and and he
did the best he could. And that's what I want
to do. Every day I go and I want to
do the best I can possibly do for the artist,
make that artist happy. Hopefully you make a hit with him,

(01:32:32):
but if not, a great record and that's equally as
important sometimes. And there are a lot of albums out
there that people have never heard of. You know, Willis
Allen Alan, I can't believe you cut that well? So
many like that, you know that. I just and that

(01:32:52):
that are great records that people don't know about. So
we're your parents proud of your work? I yeah, my
mom was, for sure. My father was tough when it
comes to that. And I often say, now I wish
my dad could see me now, you know, it would

(01:33:12):
be maybe a whole different thing. Um. I think my
dad felt that because his brother helped me so much, uh,
that it made it easier for me to yeah, something
like that. Yeah, you know, dads are tough. And how

(01:33:34):
long when did he pass away? He passed away? Oh
my god, he was seventy eight years so about five
years ago. Okay, So he saw a lot of your success. Yeah. Yeah,
and I when I was a producer at r c A, Yeah,
I would take him to more Tony's. He and my
mom and uh, you know, they have dinner with the

(01:33:55):
artists and stuff. Yeah that and he never he never
really know, And I would always and I know, you know,
they were living on retirement, so I always slip my
mother a hundred dollar bill, you know. And when when
my father passed away and and my uh my sister
went over to help out, she opened the refrigerator door,

(01:34:19):
the draw on the bottom and it was food A
hundred dollar bills that I had given my mother. She
just took him into home. Wow. So you know, this
is a business where a lot of people can't work anymore.
In the last twenty years, you were I mean trying
just trying to schedule, say you're tracking and then you're mixing.

(01:34:40):
You know, what is the secret to your ability to
continue to work? I think the fact that I love
it so much and I enjoy it so much. And
you know, when I'm going I never think I'm making
a living doing this. I think I'm I'm doing something
people are going to enjoy this. It brings a lot
of happiness music to people. Um, yeah, you know, I

(01:35:00):
I don't know I did. Certain artists are tough, and
you know, when you're going in and it's not going
to be a walk in the park, but other artists are,
you know, just so much fun to be in a
studio with um Dylan was. It was a ball. That's
not his reputation. He was great because he was doing

(01:35:21):
stuff that he was doing, all these old chestnuts. Well
this is all recent stuff. Yes, yes, fifty two songs.
Well that's the last one I too before that? Right, Okay,
when was the first time you worked with Dylan? First
time I worked with him with Strangers in the Night
or Shadows in the Night, it's called Yeah. They called

(01:35:45):
me the manager and they had this time and I
couldn't do it. I said, oh, well that's too Bob
under work with that. I said, I'm sorry, I'm I'm booked,
so I don't have the phone. I said to my wife, Damn,
I really would have liked to have done that with
Next morning, they called me, Bob wants you. When are
you available? So they worked around me, which I thought

(01:36:08):
was great. And now I've done fifty two songs with him,
actually fifty three. And how old long does it take
to cut a Dylan drack? We we were doing one
song every three hours, and what would happen? Would the
first couple of hours, it would be Dylan going over
the song, get the meaning of the song and and

(01:36:30):
listen to the way Frank did it or whatever, and
and try to get you know, his special interpretation. And
then we would go in and cut the track and
two or three takes and we'd had it. So we
would go from three to six, and then we take
a two hour break for dinner, and then we go
to eight to maybe eleven and get another song. So

(01:36:53):
we were getting to a day. Where were you coming
this at the capitol and studio? And then uh, any
special tricks he used on his vocals to enhance those, Yeah,
we did. We We used a great mike on his vocals. Um. Uh,
the Frank Sinatra mike that it's just amazing mike. And

(01:37:14):
then I put another mike um in an omni position,
uh two ft maybe away from the first mike and
to capture some of the ambiance in the room and
so forth. And he when he heard the first playback,
he said, al my voice hasn't sounded this good in

(01:37:37):
forty years. Yeah. And does he talk to you? Yes?
He does not talking to be No, No, he does.
I tuned one thing and uh and as I went by,
he heard it and he looked at me and said,
what's that? I said, well, you were a little under
we know. He made me put it back. Okay, And

(01:38:01):
what about you know, staying on that, you know, starting
in the seventies whatever, the era of comped vocals. What
do you think of that? Well? Yeah, the reason I
I mean, it works obviously, it works, you know with
with with Barbara, there's a lot of comping of vocals,

(01:38:23):
even comping of breath really yeah, right, yeah, she'll say,
you know, I love that breath two verses back? Can
we put that here? So? Yeah, And but do you
do you think you mean, forget not making it specifically
about Barbara, does it eliminate a little bit of the

(01:38:44):
soul and the field when you comp all that stuff? Well?
I think so, yeah, I do. I do think a
little bit when you hear you know, change is gonna come.
Sam Cooke's sitting on the dock of debate, those kinds
of things, those are not compvocal, those are you know.

(01:39:04):
And even with Barbara there's I mean there's some she
came in one day we were working U David Forssibly
doing back the Broadway and and she was not failing.
Well she first time down, second time down, she just
killed it. Really. It was like, you know, but they

(01:39:26):
people like Barbara just they varized to the occasion. I mean,
she is so meticulous about things, you know, it's it's
never going to get out if she doesn't like it.
So anybody you haven't worked with who's still alive that
you would like to work with, Yeah, you know, that
comes up a lot. Uh, Yeah, I'd love to do

(01:39:46):
a record with Sally came up. I was talking to
Desmond Child the other day and he was talking about
what a perfect career she has because she's unique. But
she only makes a record like every eight years. I know,
I know, and I got I put it out there
a few times. You know, if she's available and wants
wants me, I'm available, And who does she use? I

(01:40:07):
don't know. I don't know. Okay, anybody else that's the
top of the list. You know, I've hit everybody. I
don't know who's out there that I that you know? Right, Okay,
this has been fantastic. I think we covered Thanks so
much for coming on the podcast. You're kidding? Is that
hit with time? Yes? Well, unless there's something specific that

(01:40:31):
we have no no, no, Okay, you've been wonderful till
next time. This is Bob left,

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Bob Lefsetz

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