Andy Grammer

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Book of Welcome Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast.
My guest today is recording artist and performer Andy Graham.
How are you, Dad? I'm good. You know you got
up to get a period. I wanted to have drinks here.
I saw on the back of your jacket it said
reckless optimists. Is that how you see yourself? That's kind
of where where I'm at right now. I like that.

(00:29):
I love the idea of it being like a rebellion. Okay,
well there's a there's a couple of things. There's a
rebellion and optimists. Were you always an optimist? Yeah? I
think I was kind of like I think I came
out this way. Well, I mean that makes it easier
in a business where it's almost impossible to succeed. Impossible,
stupid exactly. So do you come from a family of optimists?

(00:51):
I do? You know? My My dad as a children's singer.
His name is Greg Grammer, unbelievable Grammy nominated child a
singer We lost to Mr Rogers compilation album a while back. Um,
and my mother helped him write the songs. So I
grew up around um Yeah, a lot like a lot
of like good vibes and songwriting. I have to ask, Okay,

(01:12):
is Gramm or the original name or did they change
that for the act? No real name, real name? Do
you have any idea of the derivation of them? Uh? Yeah,
I think it's German? Okay. Uh so you were discovered
busting Yeah. Man. Well, first I want to say that
you are a fascinating figure to me, and I'm a
huge fan of yours. My wife when we was probably

(01:36):
ten years ago, my wife was interning at Warner Records,
and she's like, Oh, you have to get that. You
have to listen to this. I mean, you have to
subscribe to the Lessets letter because he's like the he's
got the pulse. And so we were both like all right,
and we just I've been reading you ever since, and
I find you really really interesting and I love the
voice of like you have this sense that you just

(01:56):
don't care what anyone else thinks. Is that true? Well? No,
you know, yes, but that's true. I Mean there are
a couple of things there. There's a Bob Dylan line
to live outside the law. You must be honest, you know,
and so if you take the money, you're compromised, you know.
So if you don't take the money, you can say
whatever you say. And at this point I still occasionally

(02:19):
get people emailed me a little bit more than occasionally.
You don't wanting to do a trade out like hype that,
and I say, you know, I don't do that. And
the other thing is people don't understand the game, which
is is someone he gives you something and you burn them.
That just burns the relationship. You're just done, So you
can't do that. But I think this is very similar
to the election we have. I'm trying to come from

(02:43):
the vision of reality. Frequently, everybody knows reality, but nobody
speaks it, so therefore I'm saying it. And certainly we
had all this technological revolution and the music business was
scnary in the coal mine, and it's fascinating to watch
the television and movie business still wrestling with that after
they could look back at the turmoil we went through.

(03:05):
So yes, you know, you might be the only critic
a critic or now I don't really but I don't
have a big term problem with the term. Yeah, you're
one of the only ones that I that I will
actually check in on when you say when you say stuff,
and I don't always agree with you, but I know
that you are coming from a very sincere, honest place,
and that's dope. Man. Well that's what that's really great.
You know, I said, you know, I may not agree

(03:27):
with you, but I know that's really your opinion. But
in a world where that's kind of rare, I congratulate,
you know, as I say, that's what the music used
to be. Uh. It used to be in the sixties
and early seventies in America for getting inherited wealth. In Europe,
a musician was as wealthy as anybody in America and
therefore what we'd call the rock star lifestyle, which has

(03:48):
not been taken over by bankers and people. It was like,
oh yeah, I mean the famous thing was, yeah, we
wrecked the hotel room, our road manager shows up with
a roll of hundreds and we move on. It's like, uh,
And then you know, I'm not necessarily uh in favor
of some of this behavior. But there's a famous story.
God time goes back and you're young in the mid

(04:10):
seventies seventy five, I believe where Neil Young and Steven
still has did an album or may run. They had
a tour planned. Neil Young famously to this day goes
into his sort of modified Winnebago and Stephen Stills went
down first, and Neil Young cinema uh telling me, said,
doesn't feel right. I'm not doing it okay, whereas everybody says, oh,

(04:31):
I'm working hard, you know, because that's what I'm supposed
to do. And I think that's a problem we have
in the music business now. First and foremost of the
music business now, people are either very successful, there's not
much of the middle class, okay, and a lot of
people on the lower end. Bitch. There's two kinds of

(04:52):
people that bitch. They're the people who were pissed that
they missed out on the glory days of the major labels, etcetera,
who probably do to have the talent. And then the
people were the beneficiaries of that. And when we came
to the internet, we found out people didn't really want
to listen to their music that much. Yeah, okay, so
we have these I want to disagree with the middle class.

(05:12):
You think there's no middle class. I feel like that
these days get you. Wait, wait, wait, wait, let's define
middle class. Middle class to me means that you are
a musician that gets to make their own music, and
you make enough money to live comfortably. Okay, I mean,
I hate to put metrics on it, but I will
you that middle class musician. How many tickets does that

(05:35):
person sell as they tour? I mean there are people
that I think that are middle class that can sell
thousand tickets. Thousand tickets is a real is real number.
How low would it go when you still consider them
to be middle class? I guess it depends. If we're
just talking money, then you could sell three hundred. But
if you're a sinc beast, then like your middle class. Okay,

(05:56):
I think they're It's kind of it looks like the
country at large. We still have a middle class, but
it is not the dominant bubble. It's more lower middle class.
I do not have a problem with people. The problem
becomes that a lot of the people you're referencing who

(06:17):
have a have fans, have a career, don't stop complaining
that they're not more successful. If the people were saying
this is what I do and this is who I am, great,
I mean. On the other end, I did Folk Alliance,
which is actually a fascinating organization. This goes back about
seven or eight years ago and I'm talking and a

(06:37):
guy said, uh, are you gonna tell me? I forget.
The term was sort of like a middle class musician.
I know, how much do you make in a year?
He goes, I grows ten thousand dollars. I think you know,
this guy's in his own world. Okay, so you know,
but it used to be very different. Going back from
my original point, it used to be the threshold was

(06:59):
getting a major your label deal. There were six major
companies up in god the nineties when he started getting consolidation.
That those companies, unlike today, usually would stay with you,
especially Warner Brothers for five records, and therefore you would
not only you you got their money, and you also
got their publicity and hopefully some radio play such that

(07:23):
people became aware of you. And if it ended, you
still had something. I mean, I'm gonna get into dangerous territory.
Go there. Anyway. There's this act Amy Man. She had
a hit with Till Tuesday on Columbia of Voices carry
I love that, Okay. Then she was a critics Darling forever. Okay.
When the label money dried up, it turns out there

(07:45):
was a limited number of Amy Man fans, not judging
the music whatsoever. But she was supported by the system.
Everybody who was involved prior to the Internet. They're still bitching.
I think this has killed rock music because they keep
telling their fans don't stream, and that's where all that's

(08:05):
where all the action is. But I do believe going back. Yes,
there are some people who are beneficiaries of that who
are complaining they're not making money today. But the truth
is not that many people want to listen to their music.
But there's also a number of people who say, God,
I want to suck at the major label tent. I
wish that I had all this money, which is not

(08:26):
how they do it any They don't do that anymore.
My question to you is what's the net gain or
loss of having a small amount of people they get
what you're talking about, or a large amount of people
they get uh freaking distribution. Okay, for let's look at
it from the consumer end. Yeah, the turn of the

(08:47):
century and Internet, everybody was involved who had success previously
said oh, there's gonna be no money in music, no
one's gonna make music. Needles say they were totally wrong.
The opposite happened. Okay, the barrier to entry is essentially
non existent. You can make a song on garage band
today for no money if you have a computer, and

(09:09):
you can upload it to a service that will put
it on the streaming services, and then you'll spam everybody saying, hey,
you gotta listen to my stuff. Okay. So if you
are on the consumer end, it is almost the scene
is almost incomprehensible because if you go back to where
you started, you have a lot of bullshit. You have

(09:30):
the labels saying, you know, this is what bothers me
label say everything we put out is great, which is untrue.
Sure most of them. If you say this is the
one thing, listen to this great, okay, but there are
so many things. If I go through the Spotify top fifty,
first of all, you go to through the U S
Top fifties, mostly hip hop, some pop. Okay. Uh, you

(09:53):
might find one or two songs that surprise you. Okay,
maybe exactly. I'm glad you said that. But then you
gotta go through all the other genres. You gotta go
through country, you gotta go through an electronic. The scene
is overwhelming such that, uh, you discover something and you
say to yourself, am I the only person who's listening

(10:14):
to this. Okay, So we're looking for some community. Uh,
I'll give you an example with the movies. It used
to be until about two thousand three, two thousand five,
boomers would go out to the movies because that would
give him a point of commonality when they hung together.
Then all of a sudden, everybody realized we're not making

(10:34):
our kind of movies and they stopped going. Now it's television.
But even television, you know, you can't talk music when
you get together people because no one's listening to the
same thing. And then you get the BS from the
media industrial complex saying hip hop, it's hip hop whatever.
So if you're not listening to hip hop, you don't count. Okay,

(10:55):
and I'm not. I don't want to make it about
hip hop. What I want to make it is never
in the history recorded music, certainly in my lifetime. Uh
has the big been so small? Yes, it used to be.
If you had to hit, everybody knew it. They may
not like it, Okay, Taylor Swift, you know one of
the biggest acts. You know, if you go back two

(11:18):
albums ago, whatever it's called, the average person is aware of. Uh,
we are never ever getting back together, but they can't
sing any of the other songs, so no one has
that reach. So my point once again is is someone
cobbles together a living. I have no problem with it.
I think that's great, okay, But frequently those people are

(11:39):
not happy where they are and they're bitching. And secondly,
as a consumer, we're just overwhelmed. I would agree with
the consumer thing that we're overwhelmed and that there's a
lot of people that are not being served by this
current situation. There's so much attention being left on the table.
I know there's a lot of people that like the
style of music that I make, and it is my

(12:02):
job to try and figure out how the hell do
I get to you right now? Because the modes to
get there are not as big or similar to what
they've been, So how do you do it? Um? You know,
right now, there's like a big push towards what I
would think is kind of what I've read you say
as well. It's like, I think it's less about trying

(12:23):
to take over the world and trying to build your niche,
Like everyone has their own niche, so I think it's
tripling down on specifically what you do that may not
have worked well, you know that artistically, that usually is
how you get to something good anyway, is by just
being like, all right, this is my thing. I'm gonna
triple down on this. I'm gonna try this, take risks here,
um and then see all see the modes that used

(12:45):
to be the big win as just another piece. You know.
I had a viral video on Facebook this year that
was like maybe the driving factor of my career I had.
I went and played on Good Morning America. It was
to Today's show awesome, and then then and then right
after I went to this classroom was called PS twenty
two and I sang my song Don't give Up on

(13:05):
Me with a bunch of kids that had learned it,
and that thing went insane. And I went on tour
and the number one thing I heard was of new
fans was like, oh man, I saw your video on Facebook.
That's why I'm here. Okay, I'm gonna ask and do
you know how many people viewed that video? I think
it's like sixty million. Was it completely viral or did

(13:25):
you work it? It started completely viral? And then uh,
this company crowd Surf that I work with, then they
start like it's kind of honestly, like a label. Once
they see they have something, then you start going like whoa,
And that was something I knew was viral, and I
reached out to every one of my friends. You know,
there was this thing that it used to be, like

(13:46):
promoting singles. It's kind of dead now, but in the
early stages of when social media was happening, you have
artists that would be like, go check out my friend's song.
It was like a season where that happened, and then
we all fucking hated it. Right, well, that's what I
was video. Oh my god, Dave, you don't text me
Gangham style, and then everybody tried to have a viral video.
The last one was Bouer of the Harlem Shake and people,

(14:08):
this is manipulated, and then we don't have that kind
of video anyway. Yeah, they do on TikTok still differ
with you, but the full different universe. You go there, yea,
he walked in there and around. Well, but this is
just like rock band Guitar Hero because certainly Little nas
X was boosted and made on TikTok Okay, so now

(14:29):
everybody says, oh, it's all about TikTok and they're gonna
get and they're gonna burn it out. I'm not saying
TikTok the platform will necessarily burn out, but as a
vehicle to break records, you know, it's really more about
the participants in the music on that site anyway. So
or what we say is what we're saying, which is
kind of interesting, is like, you know, I'm good friends
with the need to Breathe guys. You don't need to Breathe. No,

(14:51):
I don't. They're this band. I had him on my podcast.
No he knows who they are, except they sell like
nine thousand tickets shows and you're like, slow, what are
you talk so fill out red rocks like two nights
in a row. Okay, wait, the name of the act.
It's called need to Breathe. Oh, need to Breathe. Yes,
I heard it is a need to Breathe ground No, no, no, no,
I just need to breathe. And what what he said

(15:13):
what was so cool is he's like there was a
point where we were like, we don't care about anyone
except the fan that's coming to my show. I don't
care about radio, I don't care about anything else except
for like, I just want to over deliver for you,
and we've done that over and over again, and now
we have this huge base and whether people know who
we are or not, we don't care. How many acts
survived outside of the golden era that you're speaking of,

(15:36):
were radio actually, like when when labels mattered more than ever?
In radio matter more than ever? Did you even have
a shot is closed? And you don't have need to breathe? Right? Yeah, Well,
the fascinating thing, of course, this need to breathe is
existing out of the mindset of the media industrial complex.
They have no slot to fit that in talking about

(15:59):
forgetting even a label hyping it. But the media, the
media says, we listened at the we look at the charts,
we get our information from the labels. That's all that exists.
And your point is well taken that they're all these
other acts. So I'm I'm now like almost ten years
into my career. I have a really awesome loyal fan
base that like specifically what I do, and I'm like, yes,

(16:20):
I definitely have a lot of relationship at radio and
put so much energy into that and I will continue
to do that. But also, like, man, how do you exist? What?
What is the forest? When you leave and go in
your own zone and just start creating. Okay, let's let's
go a little bit slower. Before you went on the
Today's Show. Yeah, what was your thought? We that song? Um?

(16:45):
One of my best friends that I was roommate with
for a while, he had a movie that came out.
It was a big hit this year, called five ft Apart,
and he needed a song and I kept sending them
songs and this one worked first movie. How many song
the three? Not many, but I'd send him on. He's like,
just just to get into the process. Yet, okay, how
long after he said he he brought you? You didn't

(17:09):
pitch him? Correct, No, he texted we're like best friends.
He texted, I need a song. How long after he
said he said, you know there's this other big name
artist that they're trying that they want me to use
and he's charging Mad Doe. Okay, a song that can
beat his song and you don't have to charge me
like crazy money. Yet? Okay? How long after he texted
you did you start to write? I had written it

(17:32):
that week. It was like perfect, So that song you'd
already written. I wrote it that week and then I
was like, oh, I just wrote this one, what do
you think of this one? And then it worked perfectly
and that came out in the movie and reacted gang
but a little bit, a little bit slower the song
tell me the process of the development of the song.
The song called Don't give up on Me, I could

(17:53):
really I know that every that now I'm I'm a
big enough thing that needs like a lot of feeding.
I have, like you know, my band as retainers. There's
all this ship. Everybody's like your band is on retainer,
some of some of them arias fifty two weeks a year, yes,

(18:15):
versions of that. So that plus just like it's just
a big thing now to move my machine forward. So
I need like any business. But it's a little bit
weird the music business because you're trying to find unicorns.
It's like really freaking hard to find it, especially in
this day and age. And so I was really feeling
stressed because I can. I'm having me and my manager,

(18:35):
we'll have a pretty good gut about like we don't
have the magic that we need. You know. There's another
story about my second album. We we released the album.
I mean, we're we're having an album released party. We're
playing everybody of the songs and then we leave. My
managers like he's a lot like you just like straightforward.
This can be blunt. Sometimes he's like, we don't have
the thing we need, and I know I've written a

(18:56):
hundred songs for that album, and then we went and
wrote a hundred and one was Honey I'm Good. So
like we know, just to slow down. You had the
album listening party, and then you did not release that
album in that form? No, how long after did you
have the final album? But we just needed as soon
as we wrote that song, we just added we just
how long after that? I wasn't like printed, it was

(19:18):
like get together. How long after that did you write
the song? Next day? Okay? Yeah, okay, So this is
like you may or may not know this story. Bruce
Springsteen manager saying I'm born in the USA, saying we
didn't have a hit, and he immediately wrote Dancing in
the Dark exactly so, And it's kind of funny because
your manager goes like we need it, and you're like,
I just wrote a hundred, so I guess I'll write

(19:40):
another one. I hate you, okay, but when you wrote
Honey I'm Good, walk us through the process of how
you did that. So it was me and my great
friend Nolan's pipe and it was just the two of
us and we got together, uh and we you know,
like most great songs came out in like two hours.
But a couple of questions, what percentage of your songs
written solo or what percentage with other people? Most of

(20:04):
them at this part, at this point are with other people.
And I think the reason that is is once I
got really settled in my point of view, I started
to see immense value of co writing. Just go a
little deeper until you know your point of view. Co
writing can be a little dicey because you don't know
what you're gonna say, so then words start get thrown
like lines are getting thrown around. Point of view is

(20:25):
being thrown around, and if you're not set on what
you're here to bring, then it can be you can
you know, I have a couple of songs that if
when I look back, I'm like, oh, that's not really
my point of view necessarily, and I don't really stand
behind that. But once you know, you like I know
who I am, I know what I'm about, I know
what I want to sing about, then it's like, go
get the best melody person you've ever met. Oh my god,
get the first the best track guy, and let me

(20:46):
help direct this thing and and get myself amplified as
great as I can be. Okay, so you're specifically it's
just not some guy who's had hits. You're looking for
a specific role reality what I And then you learn
so now album you know, I'm writing for whatever my
next album is. And I've had all these, you know,
four albums of being next to some of the most

(21:07):
incredible melody people in the world. You'd be stupid if
you don't learn something of that. Oh man, you learn
all these sweet tricks about you know. For me, I
was just going off of feel. I had no sense that, like,
your highest notes should probably be in in the chorus,
and if it's not, then you better have a good
freaking reason why it's not. A lot of like rhythmic

(21:28):
things of like you should probably have your cadence in
your precorus, be a different rhythm than the hook, because
that's what makes it pop. Like little tricks that that
seem basic. But when they started becoming party repertoire, undeniably,
your songs are just better. You just get better. This
was something I learned at the Street Uh Street perform
in Santa Monica was this idea that art is kind

(21:49):
of subjective when it's a when it's good, everybody responds, No,
I mean I go through there's people. You know, there's
famous line about William Goldman about the movie business. No
one knows anything. But it's funny you said this because
I didn't argue with someone who thinks he's a real artist.
When you're a real artist, you know when you create

(22:10):
an eleven, you know you cannot do it that often,
but when you do it, you know, And I guess
what's interesting is now, So there's that I was on
the street, and I know when you know I'm playing
this song, nobody cares strangers. It's really important. If anybody's listening,
that's a starting musician. Please stop playing for your family,

(22:32):
Go play for people that do not care about you,
because if you can turn them now, you have something
and for the most part, you don't like just by averages,
you don't have something that a stranger cares about. And
if you're willing to be on the street for four
years and find fifteen minutes over four years, that for
the most part, every person will care about. Then you

(22:55):
have something. Okay, I want to go back to the thread.
So just working our way back. You were with the
writing partner and you did, honey, I'm good, just going
sub When you work with these third parties, to what
degree do you say, uh huh or what do you know?
Not my vision? Oh? Actually yeah, people bring in ideas

(23:17):
or you're coming up with it on the spot. And
for the most part, you know, when you're when you're
starting to co write, you're finding the people that work
well with you. So there are really weird pairings that
just don't work at all and you leave and you
go like that. But since you are the artists, yeah, okay,
and you're talking about learning from these people, to what
degree is it just vacuuming information in melodically vacuuming? Okay?

(23:42):
Early on? Oh my god, why are you doing that?
How is that happening? Holy sh it, this is great.
That's something I never would have done. Teach me, teach me,
teach me point of view. I'm always a little bit
more lyric first, So that is like someone wos say
something like I'd never say that, So no, let's try
something else. Okay. So uh, honey, I'm good. You need
something for the uh, for the album to make it,

(24:05):
to have that one track. Was there a motivation in
retrospect that you felt at that time that helped create
a hit that you don't get just writing every day. No,
it just came out. It could have been the third song.
You could have been the third one. The truth is, though,
that a lot of people will not write a hundred
and one because they just won't, because they don't have

(24:28):
the effort. They believe that the people on the other
end don't know what a hit is. No, they no, No,
it's it's strictly disciplined. I don't think that the average artist,
especially songwriters, is what I preach is that if you
write a hundred songs, you're gonna be way better off
than if you wrote they're just just to be clear,
are we talking about like being on the third three promenade?

(24:51):
Are we're just talking about the experience getting your chops
up or to you gotta constantly would shed to find
you know the gold? Yeah? I think the people stop
way too early. Now. I come from song that's like
my that's my sword that I bring. I'm not like
extremely good looking. I'm not gonna make a video that
people are gonna watch a million times because like, that
guy's hot. So I knew that pretty early on. It

(25:11):
was like my words are gonna be my thing. So
maybe I care more about it than others, but I
do think that was There's this saying, oh I was
with um, I wrote a song with it. I think
it's Red, Uh is it? Who's the country artist that's
like huge red something? Red Atkins? Right? You don't know
Thomas Thomas rhet so his dad, Red Atkins. I wrote

(25:35):
a song with him, and he wrote a song with
the dad. It was great. How did that come to?
The song is terrible, but the conversation was unbelievable. How
did you get hooked up with him? Someone said he
was in town and someone like met up with. My
manager was like, yeah, you guys got like nine And
I was like, dude, how do you have so many
number ones? And he's like it's usually about one out
of every hundred. So it's like, you know, he goes,

(25:57):
if you write five songs, you've got five great songs.
If you write fifty songs, you've got two great songs.
If you write a hundred songs, you've got one that's
really good and that seems to be how this goes
in my understanding. Okay, just to go back also a
little bit slower. How often do you write songs? Every day?

(26:18):
Every day? Pretty much every day that I'm home that
I'm not touring, Like today, I'm gonna leave here and
gonna I've written three this week? Okay? So do you
keep a notebook of phrases and other inspiration you do? Yeah?
What kind of notes would you make? Um? Yeah, I
have like a it's it's writing and it's to me,
concepts are the things that are the hardest to find.

(26:40):
So sometimes it's like a line, but more often than not,
it's what is? What are we all experiencing? That? It is?
Just needs to be said? And anytime I see that
or feel that, I'll just write that. Okay, can you
give me two examples? Um for let's see, sure, what
are here I got? Oh? I just saw you know

(27:02):
this idea. I have an idea that I might try
to write today about. You know, I lost my mom
ten years ago and so I'm about to have another
baby and that's gonna send me through a whole other
grief tail spin because it's all how many children do
you have. I have one girl right now, I'm about
to have another one. So the idea that around big events,
that's when I miss you. That's a good concept. Let's
do that. It's right there. Okay, okay, let's go back

(27:23):
to the movie song. So you've written this song before
you send it to him. Yeah, what is your belief
in the song? Do you believe this is a specific winner? Uh?
When I initially sent it to my manager, he cried
and and said this is amazing, and then we cooled
off on it because when you write a bunch sometimes

(27:44):
that's what happens. And uh so I sent it over
knowing that it had had a spike in our our
caring about it, but at the moment it was a
little bit cool. Yeah, okay, how long before you sent
it to your friend? Had you written it? Uh? Um? So,
I think what happened is I sent it and then
that process took a while. Still so my yes, my

(28:06):
manager liked it, and then he said he wanted it,
and then it was like over a long period of time,
and then probably about a month too later, things started
to heat up like, oh my god, I think we're
gonna use this and then we wanted to see how
it reacted, and then we saw that it started to
really react, and that's when it became a single. Okay,
this was before or after the movie came out. After
the movie okay, so you you sent it to him.

(28:28):
How long after that did the movie come out? Probably
at least two or three months. Oh, that's pretty quick.
It's fast. It was the end. It was near the end. Okay,
so it's in the movie. How do you know it's
reacting because you can see it on all the Spotify data,
Like immediately it's getting the movie gets released everywhere, and
then this song spikes everywhere that it gets released. Now,

(28:52):
did your label specifically pitch it to Spotify and say
this is a winner, it's gonna be in a movie.
They did, and he said put it in a good playlist.
They saw it reacted. Okay, so now it's reacting. Tell
me the next thing. It's reacting. Um so now I
now I run around the world and do radio promo
in different different countries and uh, and then we go

(29:15):
on to today's show and so it's reacting. You have
any idea how many streams it out on Spotify before
you push the button I don't remember exactly, but millions, okay,
but not fifty million, not fifty millions okay. So also,
you know, one of the things that's still kind of
a silly way to do it, but when you go

(29:36):
perform on Today's Show or any of these you know,
Good Morning Americas something like that, the ones that are hits,
if they spike somewhere, they always do. So this one
we did it, and then we saw immediately it was
like the number one on pop and so on the iTunes,
which is like an old way to look at it,
but it's still just like, right, well, that's that's the

(29:58):
demo for the Today Show. Yeah, so you're like, oh,
this is this immediately hits or you get a call
that like serious, XM just played it without any promo.
You get these weird calls, you start to know what
a hit feels like. When you had a couple, you're like, ah,
there's things that are outside of me being able to
create that just start to happen. Um. And then so

(30:18):
once we had that, so the S curve is your label,
they said that, Okay, we have something here going back
to you know, it's in the movie. It's reacting on Spotify.
Then you're going around the world pitching it to radio
to what level of success, not you know, discouraging levels

(30:40):
of success. I don't want to go too much further
than like, what's when you've done it for as long
as I have and you have, you know how hard
it is to get the thing that makes people react.
When you have the hit and it doesn't go gang
as big as anything else, you're frustrated. So how many

(31:03):
radio shows, radio stations did you visit? So we went
to Mexico City, we went to Paris, we went to uh,
Germany and Poland, and it did really well in UM
Australia and it smashed in South Africa, and uh it's like,
you know, now we're back to the drawing. Okay, but

(31:23):
you're mentioning all these foreign countries. To what degree? Were
you working in the US? In the US hard running
around two different you know. On Hottie Sea, I have
so many relationships. We've had a couple of big successes
at pop, but mostly it's been Hotta Sea has been
in my format. Okay, when you're on the Today Show,
where are you in the radio work? Are you basically starting?

(31:45):
Just starting? So we had the today show hit the
iTunes thing goes crazy, and then that day we put
up the Facebook thing and that starts to going, okay,
tell me the story of PS twenty two. So I
didn't know what it was, and I just go in
there and I tried to do it. Something about kids
singing don't give up on Me is especially impactful. So

(32:07):
we started and I started to sing it, and they're
really good. If you haven't got a chance see it,
they are amazing. So I just started to cry. So
the fourth take is me being able to get through
without crying because it's really sweet. Hearing like, I don't know,
eight year old singing don't give up on Me, You're
like shit. Um, so that thing starts to wait wait
who set that up? That was the label? Yeah? And

(32:31):
just because I'm interested, were the kids prepared? Did they
know the song? When you show him, this guy he's
been doing this for a while and he's had you know,
a bunch of other artists do it and they're all good,
but for some reason, this one is the one that
really like took it off. And then we got to
bring them. We did see an n Heroes and we
brought them all on stage in New York and it
was how many kids. It's like sixty kids. So I thought, okay,

(32:53):
I've seen the videos. So in any event you record it,
you see you're crying, so you must know we have
something yeah, but not anything like okay, I think we
have something like yeah, that's probably get like a hundred
thousand views, will be great. So then it's done. How
long after do you put it up on the internet.
I think like the next day, okay, primarily on Facebook.

(33:15):
So Facebook is where it really went nuts. These platforms
are so crazy, I know, that's what trying to say.
So I think it's got like three million on YouTube
and then it went sixty on because the share thing
on Facebook was wild for it. UM. But that was
like a big, big, big win. That was my one
of my first big wind that didn't have anything to
do with UM radio or or standard music videos. Okay,

(33:39):
So after you had this giant success, did your label
go back and pitch radio? UM? So this is the thing.
It didn't do that great radio. But even after you
could say, hey, I got sixty yes. So this is
what you're telling me. You're you're telling me that your
radio research is telling you this is not a good song.

(34:00):
How how loud do I have to scream about this?
What are you insane? Who are you talking to? That?
A song that when you played on TV everybody gets it,
and then when you put a video up on Facebook,
everybody buys it. What are you talking about? And they
just beat against it? And then we couldn't get it
passed through. Okay. So if it has sixty million views
on Facebook, how many uh streams does it now have

(34:23):
on Spot? Question? Millions? Okay, So when did all this happen?
It's been it happened. I think it's about a year ago. Okay,
So let's go back to where we started. This is
your outside the traditional system. It's not driven by radio.
Well then what do you do? What's your viewpoint? Well,

(34:43):
what's cool is and different from me is I've I've
now have it? It is a hit. It's undeniably. It's
impacted my business, my bookings, all of the tickets, like everything.
That's what I want to know. Yeah, everything gets pushed
like a hit. Okay, so you have this success? Is
a tour already planned? Tours are no? No, the tour

(35:05):
is not planned yet. Okay, And are you turned into
don't give up on me to it real quick. Do
you book larger rooms because you think, hey, we're gonna
get more people, because not necessarily we did. We kept
it pretty similar, but they did. They all did great, okay.
And that tour was in what kind of rooms? So
it went up to about you know, we hit three
thousand in some places, okay, and how many dates? And

(35:28):
what about the rest of the world? No, just us,
just us? Yeah? And so when did you when of
those dates stopped playing? That was we ended in last day?
It was like August something, okay, So where does that
leave you? That leads me now getting taking some time
for a new baby, which is great, and then just

(35:49):
coming up with new music. Okay, And let's go back
to you to the original dispoint of discussion, which is,
if you're not someone pushed by the machine, and you're
not someone on the Spotify top one, a top fifty,
whatever and that kind of music, we're talking about both
the audience but primarily the performer the headspace. You have

(36:11):
this giant success, okay, but everybody who was part of
it was aware of it, but the people outside were
completely unaware of it totally. So where does that leave
you as an artist emotionally. Well, what's weird is that
the life gets really long too. So It's what I

(36:31):
found is it wasn't like it just ever went away.
It's still doing weird things on the internet. It just
like popped up on a hundred iTunes thing again today,
just like keeps it. It's good. It just like keeps going.
It hits less longer. They just keep going, you know.
It like sink the ship out of everything. It was
on America's Top Talent on like the emotional moment, a

(36:52):
song like don't give up on Me. I think we'll
go for a really long time. It's like broad enough
with a big enough message. Okay, but but I'm really
interested in your headspace. Okay. In the old days, you
would have a top ten hit every it would be
on all the radio stations. You get a little certain
amount of TV play. Everyone would sort of be aware
of it, and you could say, as the maker or

(37:15):
someone involved in the business, we rang the bell. Okay,
we maxed it out. We did not ring the bell. Okay,
But the question, what do we know? The bell is
not as loud as it used to bate totally, So
where does this leave you? He said, Hey, listen, these
people love me, they watched the video. I'm selling more tickets.

(37:36):
But you know, it's not like I'm getting all this press.
It's not like, uh, you know, politicians are calling me up.
It's like, uh, are you satisfied? You can't ever be satisfied.
That's like, I mean, am I satisfied with? I definitely
think that it could have been bigger? Um, But it

(37:58):
also to me registered like I'm saying, I've been around
hits and so it felt and feels like a hit.
Let me put it. The only thing that I don't
see is is major radio success. But it still feels
like a hit. So what's weird is like, what you're
talking about is that this collective consciousness has been blown apart.
So too many different people say there say the collective

(38:20):
conscious was ten people. Right now, you blow that apart
to four of those people, it was a massive so
so to them and to private show people and to
everybody else and all the stuff I'm crushing right now.
It just means that the bell of the collective conscious
is nearly impossible at this point. And are you okay

(38:41):
with that? Yeah? Because that means that I can go
into I've now focused more on my niche. I think
everybody has to see themselves as your own niche. Are
you frustrated that other acts are bigger than you? Good question?
Not really, not like h I think what's cool about

(39:04):
the niche mindset is it allows you to be a
little more like, what am I here to do? I'm
not actually competing against you anymore because the chart is
kind of ridiculous. So let me go build my own
thing that is so good and so uh create so
much of a service to someone that they'd really miss
me if I was gone. Okay, you mentioned privates. How

(39:25):
many privates do you do? Um? You know, it varies.
We usually what's great about those that they let you
just like go out on a Saturday, play a gig
and then come home be with your family, you know,
especially over these seasons of uh baby and stuff. We'll
probably hit like twenty of those years. Okay, and let's
say you do that, you fly out on the jet,
you come back. How many people do you take uh about? Okay?

(39:48):
So it's relevant. I mean traditionally corporate privates pay well, sure,
but that's a that's a for one off that's pretty
expensive to get out there it's expensive. There's a lot
of people you know. To me, the idea of being
in DJ's like that sounds great. How the hell do
you do that? Oh yeah, I got a three backup singers.
Go to see a comedian who set out this is

(40:09):
like the best gig of all time. Maybe you'd come
with your own microphone, maybe you have a road man. Honestly,
this is what is really difficult for me about getting
outside of the country is to provide the show that
we know we have to get to Australia. We've done
it a couple of times or other place where things
are reacting. The cost doesn't make any sense. So to
what degree does the cost make it so you don't

(40:31):
even go? It's really hard. So where is it, you know,
outside the United States? Where is your career? Man? We
we like we played some shows in the Philippines. We
do really well there. Australia has been great. We're trying
to figure out a way to get over South Africa
because you don't give up me was like huge on
the pop stations there. Um. But yeah, there's like so
I think anyone probably in most businesses right now is

(40:55):
trying to figure out where to spend their time because
now all the jobs to some degree have been given
back to the artist of like, well, on your social media,
you could be the promo for this, you could be
the creative for this. You can like figure it all
out yourself, and you're just a little bit overwhelmed of like, Okay,
So then if the big bell is what we were

(41:16):
all used to go for, if that's not happening, then
there's like a thousand mini jobs that we could be doing.
Where do we spend our freaking time? And I feel
that way a little bit about countries outside of the
U S as well. Okay, you mentioned CrowdSurf was the
company that helped you tell me when they got involved
in what they did. They've been around since. Um, I think,

(41:36):
I'm not exactly sure, but they're you know, they're through
the label that's one of the services provides, and they
help with like blowing up something that's already that's working.
They did it. I don't exactly I know that they are,
like they have a lot of different clients and they
have they have a good sense of who would like
the content that I gave, who would like that video?

(41:57):
So up where they posted it and then you know,
they were really good at like going up to different
places to get it posted, to get and get it shared.
Did you set up were they any other uh, intermediaries?
You don't remember exactly which one is now, Okay, So
how much have you worked overseas? Um? You know we've
done not a ton. You know we had initially we

(42:22):
didn't get great love from like Radio one, even on
the big songs. They wouldn't go in London, right, Yeah,
So okay, terms of your career, are you all in
this is it you're gonna do it till you die?
Or if it, you know, started going in a wrong
direction and you're playing house concerts, would you say, Um,

(42:45):
I'm not someone that even thinks that way, right, Like
the guy, Yeah, like the guy that goes to the
street and decides that that's a good place to start
that you know, it's pretty let's go back. It's tough
to like face. So you grow up where I grew
up in New York, New York City, No about our
North New York City in the suburbs, what place called

(43:07):
Monroe would Bury, Okay, and how many kids in the family.
I had an older brother, what's doing he is a therapist.
He lives out here too, okay, and he's a therapist
back there. Um, no, he's he lives here. He's he's
a therapist. And like Whittier. So from the time you're born,
your parents, your father's a children's performer and obviously that's

(43:31):
his only job, that's his job. Okay. He was the
middle class that we're talking about back then when it
was impossible what what kind of family did he come from?
That he became a children's performer, not that, but he
created him and my mom, you know, they saw a
need with my brother. They looked around and when he
was like two or something and said, there's not that
much good kids music, and so they just started writing

(43:54):
it and creating it. And he was working with a
group called the Lime Lighters, which I think used to
be friended by a guy named Glenn Yarboro if these names, yes, yes,
So that when he when he got out, then my
dad jumped in and was doing kind of the tail
end what you're also being at the tail end of
the of the line Lighters, playing casinos and other things
that weren't super lavish. And so from there it wasn't

(44:15):
he was trying to figure out what he wanted to
Just go back a little bit further, what kind of
situation did he grow up? And he grew up in uh,
you know, single mother and no real music around them. Okay, well,
then how did he get into music? He got in
through his his voices, unbelieving we got way better voice
than I do, and he sang in choir and then

(44:36):
he I was actually born in Los Angeles because him
and my mom tried to do his solo thing here.
Then they tried to do the sole thing in Nashville,
and they finally moved to New York and that's where
they started to do kids stuff. Okay, did he go
to college? Yeah? Where do you go to wreckers? Okay?
So how long after Rutgers did he get in the
Lime Lighters? That's a good I'm terrible at dates. I

(44:56):
would imagine if did he have he didn't have six
se us in he I know him saying to me
when I turned thirty that he was like, imagine being
where you're at and still not having any success and
how hard that would be. And I'm like, yeah, that's okay.
So my point, did he have any day jobs between
Rutgers and being in the limelighters. I don't think so. Okay,

(45:16):
so he's always made it as a musician. Yeah, that
was important for me too. How did he meet your mother?
They met through the behind faith. I'm so I'm a behig.
I don't have you ever heard of the high faith? Well,
I remember that people lived next to me in college
and seals and cross Yeah totally so. Um, they met
it up like the hot club. He went to Rutgers
first and then he went to Beloit College and that's

(45:37):
where they met. Okay, that's your mother was Beloit, Wisconsin
and Wisconsin. Okay. How does your faith affect your music
and outlook today? Um? Yeah, you know it really. I
have a song on my last album called Wishy Paine,

(45:58):
which is kind of like a cool idea comes from
a high quote, which is this idea that you don't
grow without being put through struggle. So when you truly
believe that, then it's kind of a grounded optimism because
even when things are terrible or happening to you, that
if the sense is that they're there to you know,
build you into a different person, or to make you stronger,

(46:20):
or to add something to your personal arsenal that you
didn't have before. Uh, that's a grounded optimism to me.
So on my mean greet, we would have everybody come in,
about eighty people a night, and I would open and
I'd say, all right, I got the song. I wish
your pain is what we're gonna do. I will share
my deepest pain in my life, and I'll tell you
what it's turned, what it gave to me. I lost

(46:42):
my mother at really intense She's my rock, and uh,
it gave me an empathy that I just didn't have.
So I'm like an optimist. I'm like a puppy. I'll
come try to cheer you up no matter what's going on.
But that without having experienced pain is actually obnoxious because
somebody who's really going through it, you're telling me to
cheer up. I think you need to get away from me.

(47:03):
I kind of hate you. And so to be truly
crushed and to be this puppy person, to be the
quiet guy at the table for two years, just taking
in understanding how others could feel this low all the time,
that was really important for me. Now to go around
and be this optimist undeniably important piece to give to

(47:25):
the guy that's gonna go do what I do, so
I share that, and then people would and I'd be like, now,
I dare you this is my meet and greet, I
dare you to share with me the deepest thing has
ever happened to you? That was difficult and what what
you got from it? Okay? There eighty people, they are
all eighty, go through not all of them, but a
lot of them. And it was how long does that take?
An hour? Okay? And you do this for every show? Yeah,

(47:47):
And this is more of me understanding, going back to
the niche thing of like, oh man, I had never
heard anyone do this. This is cool. I want to
I want to continue to find reasons or situations like
this that only I am doing and I love this,
And that's what starts to build your little community out
to why you know, there was a lady who came

(48:10):
to you know, you're here these super fans, So she
came to like twenty of the right and even me,
I'm there, I'm like, I'm not that good. Listen, I'm good.
I create a really good experience that you're gonna have
a good time. But she didn't share in any of them.
And then on the on the last one she shared
and she she bought the meat and great for everyone.
That's a lot of money over two months, and she

(48:32):
goes the deepest issue that happened to me was that
my I had a little baby this year and he
passed away about two months, and so me and my
husband decided that we were gonna do whatever we need
to do to get through it. So we bought twenty
of your tickets. And I can't ever seen one. And
I was like, oh my god, unbelievable. And she's like,

(48:55):
and I've learned so much, and I feel like I
have a new family of all the friends that I've made,
all the different shows. That's something that I've got. Who
is holy shit, who my audience, It's so sweet. My
audience are the people that, um, they're the happy friend
in the group. I don't know if you have one,
but they are looking for the their like the optimist.
They're the ones looking for the good in the situation.

(49:17):
A lot of times they're spiritual. They're not necessarily like
the hot girl, like the super hot girl that goes
to the club and for a little while when you're
coming up and you have different like you can see
you go. You play these radio shows and you do
different things other people. You're like, Oh, this group of
people over here is has this type of fan and
my type, my fan is just very sincere and genuine

(49:39):
and they love uh yeah, they love to look and
the look for the good percentage male female, probably seventy female,
but actually some male, honestly, so weirdly wide. And again
this was something that for a second there, I'm like,
am I not cool? Am I not cool? Because there's

(50:00):
literally eight to eighty here and that's what people say.
But what I like to sing about is uh is life.
I don't. I'm not singing just about um this like
slim teenage area. I sing about my daughter a lot.
I sing about life after death a lot. I sing
about tons of just like universal life things. And so

(50:25):
you know, I opened for a band called Trained for
a while and I saw similar with them as well.
Was that it's just this huge span, you know. Okay,
so to what degree are you are practicing behind um?
Pretty pretty intensely? You know? So I was about you.
You don't, uh, there's no drugs, there's no um no alcohol. Uh.

(50:47):
You know, I said it on the view one time.
It got like a whole thing. I didn't have sex,
four marriage, I'm like a pretty and then the bigger thing.
Those are like the rules. Just to get into the rules.
So you have never had alcohol and you've never done drugs?
I definitely I've had alcohol probably like five times. Um,
but but my my practice, the way that I am
is not that right. So yeah, and how about group worship? Yeah,

(51:11):
so there's uh where it's the happy yamiha. It is
the Vihi holiday. Uh in these five days. I gave
my daughter some presidents last night. Yes, we have an
Yammi out party on Saturday that we're throwing. It's really cool.
And uh I in general love creating space for your spirituality.
I think it's really important no matter how you do. Now,
is your wife a member of the faith? Yeah? Is

(51:34):
that how you met her? I met her in music school. Okay,
let's punt that for a second. Your mother died when
you were under what circumstances to dress cancer? Is your
father found a new part Yes, yes, she's great. And
are they married? They're married? Okay? Uh So you are

(51:54):
growing up? You a good student? Bad student? Good? Okay?
And are you someone who is a member of the
group not a member of the group. Leader, follower, um leader.
I was like a sports guy, super sports so, which
is kind of cool. I was talking with I just
got to go play in the NBA All Star Game

(52:16):
this morning, the celebrity events, and Uh, I brought my
high school basketball guy and we were just talking about
how that, how much that's affected me, how much I
bring to business that that like sports thing like when
crush kill. I remember when I opened for big acts,
I would look out at the crowd and be like,
this third of you has to come with me or
I've lost Why am I here? I'm not I'm not

(52:37):
just here to like play, I need to amass a
lot of you. So I would usually start by running
into the crowd up and down, because some all sometimes
with opening acts you can just like tune out and
like you cannot tune me out. You either like me
or hate me. And I'd run up and down, remember
Red Rocks, Like running up and down the thing and
being out of breath, but being like, Okay, now that

(52:57):
I've got your attention, this is my best song. Okay,
Uh do any of the headliners resent that? I don't care?
I mean there are stories of people saying, are you
getting too much? Response, we're kicking you off the tour.
Know what? The John Mayor has the best one. He
says the opening act of three complains about the sound.

(53:21):
The support tries to funk the headliner in the face,
and the headliner says, you can't play louder than my hits.
That is about the best description that I've seen. That's
really good. I haven't heard that before. So, okay, you
go to public school school, Okay, you graduate from high school.
Then what Then? I went to two years of acting

(53:43):
at Binghamton, which is state in New York, and I
quickly realized that acting is is saying other people's words,
which is not what I want to do. I was
writing songs in between, and that was what I was like, Yes,
I want to write stuff. So then I moved out
and went to Northbridge for music business and that was interesting.
I don't know, music business is such an interesting thing

(54:04):
to try. And two things, he did you graduate? Okay,
that's a very important thing, you know, Daniel Glass, he's
got a labeled out class note. And I've told the
story many times before in that when he was working
at sp K. This was thirty years ago. This is
just actually the introduction of Wilson Phillips. They played that weekend,

(54:25):
but he said, you need three things to you work
at SPK. You have to work have worked retail because
that's where the transaction takes place. And you have to
really want to work for s p K. And you
have to have graduated from college. So I cornered him
after I go, listen, you know, I I graduated from college,
but you know so many people in this business legends

(54:47):
if not, you know, why do you have to graduate
from college? He goes, Oh, it's not about what you
learned shows you can complete something. And I found that
as being definitive. That's like almost like your point about
a hundred songs pretty of FICI. So what was your
experience of music business college? I don't want to trash talk.
I think it was unfortunate timing trash talk I hit

(55:11):
at the at napster time. I'm in college and you're
you're reading, you're telling me how this is going, and
everybody who's smart in the room is like, no, no,
so what else he got? And and the person to
do is teaching is like, I don't know, No one knows, okay,
And you're going to college in California. Your father paying
for it? Yes, big deal, man, huge. You graduate from college,

(55:36):
then what stay? Immediately go to third three Prominent, got
my degree, walked across the stage, got my degree that
already had all my stuff in my car, and just
took off the cap and went straight to the street. Okay,
you would not go onto the street previously I had.
I was already doing it. Okay, that's what I want
to know. So you come out to North red Jew

(55:58):
We're going to be an actor. Now you come out
from music. You're going to music as a school because
you know you want to make it as a musician. Yeah,
it's like the closest thing I can think of. I
get in there and I realize I'm probably not gonna
be the guy that's writing contracts, Like, that's not what
I'm about. I'm I'm a songwriter. Um, but you're still

(56:18):
gonna make me do all this stuff. Okay, I don't
remember any of that. They also made me take a UM.
I was honestly the most ugly duckling at that school
because I can't. I'm not like a shredder. I'm not
going to sit at the piano and while you with
my piano skills. My my main skill is finding what's

(56:40):
universal to all of us and putting that in a
way that's simple enough for you to get beautifully. And
that is a weird one when you're trying to get
it right, because it just means that you can't hang
in jazz class with everybody and you're not like brilliant
with contracts or or like my grades were. Okay, so
I know that I always laughed at anyone who went

(57:00):
to school with me. It's like that guy, you're giving
it to that guy. Okay, that guy, come on. I
saw his like recital one classical guitar. It was miserable,
he was. I mean, I would go on Tuesday's were
the worst day of my life because I'd have to
go play Bach on this classic guitar and I would
just butcher it, and the teacher would just you could

(57:20):
see it on his face. He was so bummed out
with me every time. It was a weird time. I
was misunderstood. Okay, did any of those relationships have they
maintained and paid? My wife, I met my previous guitar player. Um,
I met a bass player who I've worked with a lot. Okay,
so a relationship wise, it's probably still worth it. Okay,

(57:42):
your wife, what was she doing there? She was doing music.
She wanted to do music industry, but for some reason
they wouldn't let her in, and so she did a
jazz vocal performance. But now she's she's going on to
be like, she's great. She's this awesome songwriter right now
crushing shoot sank back up for like Selina Gomez and
Kobe Kulay and has two around the world. She graduates

(58:06):
from north Ridge. What did she do? She went the
route of songwriting as well, and but it happened at
the same time as me starting to take off. Its
kind of okay. So she didn't have to get a
day job, no, okay, And well she did until we
were married. And what was her day job? What did
she do? She was a nanny for like some dope

(58:28):
casting directors here and stuff. So okay. She's like a
mover and a shaker. She's always making something happen. Okay.
But the relationship started a north Ridge yeah, okay, So
when did you start playing the third three promenade? It
had to be probably around twenty some thirty six, about
ten years ago, okay, prior to playing the third three

(58:49):
promenade had you played out, Yeah, we're anywhere that anybody
would let me. So I would. I mean in high school,
I put together there was some website that had all
the open mics, and I would just like plot it
out very methodically, and I would drive in my mom's
mini events as many open mics as possible, and I

(59:09):
would drive to New York City. I remember, you know
one of my favorite stories is it's called the Sidewalk
Cafe and you get down there and the only the
only way that you can go as you take a
number and that's the number that you perform. And I
got sixty four. That's like four and a half hours
that terrible music. So this is what goes back to
like discipline, and it's like it's not rocket science. If

(59:32):
you're willing to just like take the barrage of four
and a half hours of horrible music and then get
up and do your best and have it not go
good and then do it again, this is what it is. Okay,
you play four and a half hours in what's the response.
It's just so I'm sixty four. The only people left
their sixty sixty seven. You tell a joke and everybody's like,

(59:54):
just play the song, dude, Like enough, we all want
to get out of here. But I got enough. I
got enough. There two not be afraid of singing to
no one anytime I see anybody singing to no one,
and that that ship pumps me up. If we're like
out somewhere and there's a bar. We were in Florida recently,
and we're all like walking down the strip and there's

(01:00:15):
some bar where no one's in there and there's a
guy playing to no one. That is one of the
most rebellious, badass moves that I think any musician can do,
which is like I'm here no matter what. I'll do
this no matter what. And that's what the street was
for me. Can't But before we get to the street. Yeah,
so you're playing these open mics in high school, you
go to Binghamton. Are you still playing? So Binghamton, I'm

(01:00:42):
playing for the drunk bus drop off, which is like
they have these literally just school busses that will take
everybody out. They all get bombed, and then they dropped
them back off to go back to their dorms, and
me and this other guy would set up right by
the drunk bus drop off and we were stars from
about two a m. To four am. Al was the goal.
You're just trying to work, You're just working with your thing.

(01:01:05):
You're like, well, okay, is this working? Is this not working?
Is this like terrible? What have I got here? So
I was playing loosely bad situations, but but still just
like working on how am I? You know, I always say,
how are you actually being of service? Because for the
most part, when you start, the service is being given.
The attention is being given to the person that's playing,

(01:01:26):
and it takes a lot of work and craft to
be able to switch that to where someone's watching you
and they're getting from what you're doing, and that just
takes hours and hours and hours and hours. Now, okay,
when you're playing at the bus stop, guitar case open,
looking for change, yeah, but not hopeful. Okay, but you're
going to school for acting? Yeah, so are you an

(01:01:48):
actor or a musician? At that point I kind of
already pretty quickly I could tell that I wasn't an actor,
but I was there, so I okay, So you go
there and when you come to l ah K, to
what degree are you playing out? Before you go to
the thirst promenade. I'm playing, Uh no one will book
me and I have no money, So me and my

(01:02:10):
roommate start booking the downstairs at the Viper Room, which
is I don't have ever been down there. It's about
as big as this place exactly, very small, like low bar.
So if you put people in there, you've done a
great So this was us hustling on my Space finding
people that we thought were cool enough and that might
bring ten of their friends to come pay the twenty
bucks it is to get in the Viper Room. So

(01:02:31):
we're doing that. I have this little amp that's battery powered,
so in my head, I'm like, I can take this
anywhere anywhere, playing stage create. It was a great amp,
so that was what I would use at the street.
And then if I thought that, like there was some gig,
I think Frey was playing some charity thing at the Roxy,
and I was like, those would be my fans. So
when the line get um, I had zero shame. I

(01:02:54):
just like set up outside of the line and I
have my guitar and I'm like a mobile dude, just
like put it down, start playing my stuff. And that
was kind of how it went for a really long time.
So when you're playing outside the Roxy, what's the reaction?
You know? Cool? Okay, are people you're giving you money? No? Really,

(01:03:15):
it didn't happen until third year. Fourth year was like, oh,
you're like, uh, you're starting to you start to see
the switch of your You're really you're you're being able
to give a service. And then when you stop, everybody
come get the CD. Start like okay a little bit.
So you're playing the Viper Room. Okay, you're playing the Roxy.

(01:03:36):
How long playing roy play outside of the very important?
How long before you go to the Thirst Promenade all
at the same time? Is this all happening at the
exact Okay? So how often were you at the third
Promenade while I was so? Probably I was going during college,
so that was uh, weekends or whenever, and then once
college ended then it was every day every day for

(01:03:57):
how long? You usually Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday long like
on Saturday and Sunday because you can they have that's
a whole game in itself. That's there's restrictions when you're
allowed to actually be amplified and not amplified. It's kind
of useless to not be amplified because people can't hear
you and they just walk by. So I think those

(01:04:19):
restrictions are lifted out some somewhere around like five pm
on on weekdays and maybe a little bit earlier on Friday.
But on Saturday it's all day Saturday Sunday, so I
would get there. You quickly realize that, like, there's great spots,
So you want to be in front of McDonald's at
two pm. That's the best spot, okay, But there must
be somebody else who's figured that out. Yes, So you

(01:04:40):
quickly see that even if you go there, you will
get kind of gangstered out of that spot. So you
then find the hierarchy and then it's first come, first served,
so you get to the highest place you can get
to without upsetting the whole dynamic of everything. So for me,
it was Forever twenty one. But to get in front
of Forever twenty one at the right time, I meant
I had to be there eight am. So I would

(01:05:02):
wake up at seven on a Saturday, pack all the
stuff and my mom's many event drive over there and
just sit and at that point put all my CDs
together until two and just read or hang out or
just be okay and you can't leave, and the people
below you knew they weren't good enough to take your spot. No,
nobody knows that. The only thing that I knew was there,

(01:05:23):
Like the super High ones, those people have been there
for years and years and years, and one of them
was a duo um Flamenco guitar thing and they're just
really they could be really loud. So if you did
set up the rule of sixty ft, they would just
set up sixty ft away from you and blow you away. Right,
So then where did the CD come from? The CD
was this this small little thing called The World Is

(01:05:44):
Yours that I made for no money with a friend,
and it's got too much auto tune on it and
I don't really like it. But I sold for a
bunch of them. And how many did you sell? How
many would you solid day? In the beginning three? Right?
You would charge how much ten bucks? Which is a
huge difference. I don't know how you do it anymore,
to be honest, It might be dead because that's how

(01:06:06):
you made your money. That was actually how you can
make some money. So if you went out there and
you made seventy bucks and tips, that was a good day.
But if those seventy were ten dollar sales. Now you're
like talking, that's great. Now we're like running a little
business here. So by the end I would usually the
last year and a half of doing it, usually between Thursday, Friday,
Saturday and no, no, you know, Friday, Saturday and Sunday,

(01:06:29):
you usually sell two CDs. Really yeah, and did you
did you develop fans? Fans and then those people and
then you're selling CDs and you're handing out flyers. Most
of the people on the promadade at that point, which
I assume similar is it's like foreign It's like you're
on tour in one spot. Everybody. Everybody's coming to you.
So you're selling CDs and they're you know, they're looking

(01:06:52):
you up on my Space at that point. And it
was also an understand that you can't draw big enough
crowd unless you have some sort of a drum So
I would tell a drummer, I'll give you whatever I make.
This is what business started to really come in because
I started learning like, okay, so that's two grand first
for Friday, Saturday and Sunday of gross and now you

(01:07:13):
start taking everything away and you see where that actually lands.
But well, if you're playing, what are the costs if
you're playing the first three prominent? Well, yeah, if if
the cost of the CD, how much does it cost
to actually get a CD made? And then how much
do you have to pay somebody else to make the
big beat that we give you the reach to get
everybody there? So usually if I did two thousand and gross,
I'd keep about and there were no taxes at that point,

(01:07:36):
so that's not that's not too bad. And how big
a crowd would you get? It just depends what the
best training that it was was. It's it's the same
now as it was then that you're there for ten
hours and you make all your money in twenty minutes
over you know, you make the most of your money
by getting one big thing of a big crowd. But

(01:07:58):
if you could just go do that, then everybody just
go do that. But you can't. You gotta be there
all day because you don't know when that's gonna hit,
when all the things are gonna be right and then boom,
And now you know what they talk about is you
have to close the circle. Because if you can get
the circle closed, that's what makes someone go like, oh,
what's going on over there? And it becomes like mysterious
and interesting. Now you can't see over. So now the

(01:08:18):
crowds get bigger and bigger, and people start stepping on chairs,
and it's just a hustle. It's always a hustle. What
about going to the bathroom? Uh? Yeah, you you either
go to the bathroom after directly after. What's funny, So
every two hours you have to move because there's good spots,
and there's a guy with a clipboard who will come
and make you move. And so it's funny is at

(01:08:39):
the end, nearing the end of the even hour. So
if you started two around three forty five, everybody starts
looking at each other like who's gonna make the jump
to try to go find the next best spot. There
was a whole thing of people paying homeless people to
hold spots. It's a it's a grind. Anytime that you
can actually make money somewhere, it's gonna get interesting. You know. Okay,
could you ever get to the where you got squeezed

(01:09:01):
out musical chairs there was nowhere to play? Yeah, that
happens over when you do it for that long, there's
just gonna be times that that happens. It was Honestly,
I can't think of a better grad school for the
music business. So what was going through your head? What
was the destination? Was there a destination? Not fully, but
I just watched a father who and mother for that matter, Like,

(01:09:23):
you do the thing first and then you get help.
It doesn't just no one's gonna come give this to you.
You create the train that's going and then your brain
can't even comprehend how cool it will be or where
you're gonna go, you just start doing it. That's what
that's the engine. Just because you're talking about flyers when

(01:09:43):
you're playing the Third three Promenade, the flyers for other gigs, Yeah,
the flyers for Oh now I actually can be first
of three at the Roxy, which is like I don't
have a five people or something that. So now they're
letting someone will let me come open for them because
they've heard me somehow. And it this point, do you
believe you have any fan base or these are mostly

(01:10:03):
foreigners or I don't think I have a fan base yet. Okay,
so you get discovered on the Third Street Promenade. How
many years have you been playing there before you get discovered?
Probably third year. My manager comes and so tell us
the story. He comes and he sees me and he's like,
you're good. Uh, but he's definitely questioning, like am I
gonna is this where I'm getting my you're playing there?

(01:10:26):
He just approaches, you know, he starts his company with
a with a member of my my basketball team. He's
in New York and he's moving out here and he's
got this guy, Josh, who was a middle agent. Uh.
He gets them together and they start the company and
they move out together. And one of the reasons Josh
is down to move is because you know, he's got
this friend that's in living in Hollywood, and so like cool,

(01:10:47):
it's you know what, let's let's shift it. So then
one day Josh goes like, you should go see my friend.
He's playing on the street and uh, and Ben came
out and we just started really working together. You know.
The first thing, the first thing he says, I'm not sure. No, yeah,
first thing is definitely not sure. But he keeps coming
out and he's like what he was most attracted to
was the fact that I was just always there. He's like,

(01:11:10):
I can work with that. You know, that's a piece
that you can work with. As they said, as a manager,
you can't want it more than the act. And we
both he's been someone that we both wanted equally and
he hadn't had a success like we do now with
anybody else, so he really really wanted it and we
kind of bumbled our way through it and it was great.
Well how long after you met him did you hook

(01:11:31):
up with S Curve? Pretty? I mean, so he came
here three and then year four? All right, keep your
head up, and that is what took us to S
Curve and got us, you know, all up to get
on the radio and we get that song w into
movies and that did really great. So that was and
and but the first thing that he did with me
was he bought me a better rug and a better

(01:11:52):
Uh So that's like, that's when you know you're really
doing it with someone that you're like, oh, we're doing
this together. I don't think he ever build me back
to the rug. Good. Look do you have paper with him?
I mean, you know, that's what's so sweet. We I
think we had one to start and I'm sure that's
that's over. And he's my brother, he's my blood brother.

(01:12:14):
And has anybody tried to poach you? No, they kind
of know. Everybody kind of knows where a team we
go together. So what goes through your head? A lot
of people can't handle success. You've obviously had a lot
of time actually performing, But when it starts to go,
are you getting freaked out? Are you say no, this
is exactly what I want. I'm cool. Um No, I'm

(01:12:37):
still just trying to not die because I know how
fickle it is and how hard it is to get
to a place. So I'm just trying to maximize every
possible option in every situation. So what I liked when
I tell the story to other people is that I
had four years of figuring out fifteen minutes that was

(01:12:58):
actually of service to the to the listener, right, So like, Okay,
this doesn't work. It doesn't work. This little cover of
Maroon five works. This like Sunday Morning makes everybody stop.
So I got that. Now I gotta find three songs
that are my own that do that. So then I
went like fifty songs trying to be like Sunday Morning,
and one of those was keep your head up. So
then when I have this type fifteen that will work

(01:13:21):
on a stranger who's walking by, then when keep your
head up came. I had this tight fifteen which was
extremely valuable. To walk into a radio programmer in Iowa
that doesn't want to talk to you, doesn't need you, please,
could you just get away from me? And I go like,
just give me fifteen minutes? And I have this like
tested fifteen minute thing. That would the same impulse of

(01:13:42):
someone being like, you know what, dude, here's ten bucks
or a CD. That's a very similar impulse to like,
you know what, I think I'm putting it in. I
think I'm gonna put it in. And we went to
every radio station twice around the whole country, all the
hot seas stations, so you know, we put in a
lot of work. I've had it like actually get to
go in the radio. Everybody always asked like what was
it like the first time you heard on the radio.

(01:14:03):
I'm like, I've been to that place like four times.
It was in St. Louis. It's not like, oh my god,
it's like I know that guy. I've like been to
his wife's freaking birthday party. I played for his daughter
who didn't care like this. It is not that exciting,
but it's great. It's still great, But there's just like
so much effort and and work that goes into getting
it to to go. You know. Okay, so at this

(01:14:25):
late date, how's your financial situation. We're doing great, okay. Yeah,
And so in terms of twelve months, you have a
kid with another on your way the way, I mean
a lot. You're talking about a lot of work. I'd
presumed before you had children at all, you were not
that available, no, for for the early season before kids,

(01:14:47):
it would have been really hard to do that with kids.
Say that, and your wife was understanding. She was really cool.
I mean she was a she was a songwriter, and
then she would also she did some tours, uh, without
me as well. It's a hard line to find. I
think that I definitely got lucky. I worked really hard
and put in a lot of effort. In the same

(01:15:08):
way I think anybody that does a business, getting a
bit getting distance between you and the ground where the
business is like the hardest part. So you might uh.
Tony Robbins says a thing about a life cycle. Business
as a life cycle. So you're like in the beginning
of your business like a baby that is an infant
and will die unless you get up every night in
the middle of the night and just all of your
resources go to keep this thing alive. And then you

(01:15:30):
slowly go through the other stages of where you can
get like a little more relaxed. Yeah, but you said
it's a life. It sounds like there's death involved too.
I do think there's death. Everything is death. No, no,
what is Tony Robbins always says that it goes from
uh infant to then there's like a teenager where you
think that um that gross is profit, so you act
like wildly, you have no idea what you're doing. Then

(01:15:52):
you have a young adult where you start to put
systems into place to like help you actually keep this
business going. Then you hit um is like max profit,
where you're running it the best you could. And then
you go to old age and then you go to
like subsidized, and then you're like that did you go
to a Tony Robbins course? Yes, I went to a
business course. Wait wait, what was the inspiration to go, um? Well?

(01:16:17):
I think my manager was like, dude, he's doing this
business course. I feel like it's probably good idea for
us to do this. You know, I remember how expensive
it was. It was like ten grand, right, best ten grand?
I've ever spent in my life. Okay, how long was
the seminar? It was one of those like five day things.
And went to England. How many you went to England?
How many people were there? Probably thousand, two thousand people.

(01:16:39):
So did you get any access to Tony Robbins? No,
I'm playing his birthday party on Saturday, but I didn't
have access to him at that point. Did he make
your walk across the hot coals? We didn't. That wasn't cold.
This was like a business one where I learned some
of the most valuable things, just having not gone to
straight business school. One of the best things I ever
learned at that place was he put a cricket a

(01:17:02):
cricket scoreboard up on the screen and he goes like,
does anybody know what this means? And we're all I have.
I have no idea what a cricket scoreboard is. He goes, like,
most people play the game of business like this. I
swear to God, it's insane. You never believe it, but
that's how this goes. And he goes, how do you
even know what to do when you look at this?
This is what accounting is. Then he put up a
scoreboard of a baseball, and it was like the bottom

(01:17:24):
of the fifth, there's a guy in second and third
you're down by you know what I mean. And I'm like, oh,
He's like, this is what your business manager does. Your
business manager is not supposed to tell you what to do.
They're gonna give you the scoreboard. And then you walk
up to the plate and you make the move. You
swing for the fences. You're like, ship, we're close. I'm
gonna bunt, We're gonna do this. That was so valuable.
I'd never heard it put that way before. There was

(01:17:45):
just like four things that were about that big to
me at that point. And what was the status of
your career at that point? That was just before before
on I'm good, I think, or right after okay, and
if you had any continuing education with Tony ron Um no,
I mean i've done what we've done two of them,
I think. The one the first one we did was

(01:18:06):
something called I think the Day with Destiny should when
to Australia do that. It's just good when you're when
you're the one that's the engine of stuff, you gotta
like go get psyched up sometimes, you know, I'm not
like I don't do what every I've only done two
of them, but they were both really, really impactful. So
how do you manage the work life balance at this
point in time? Man, it's not easy, but the kids

(01:18:30):
help because they don't care so that I mean asked
my daughter. She just like commands my attention. So once
I'm home, I'm pretty much home. There are seasons where
it's a little bit more hard to do that, but
for the most part, right now, Uh, like I said,
you put systems into place, and there's a lot of
people working that. Hopefully at six pm, don't you don't

(01:18:50):
got to talk to me and uh, what's the goal
at this point in time? The goal is to continue
to triple down on what makes me unique. So you said,
you know, my jacket says reckless optimist. I think there's
a lot of people that would love to hear songs
about that that don't know yet. Well, this is kind

(01:19:12):
of an extension to your father's business to some degree,
you know. Um, I think the goal and the fun,
if you can look at it as as a fun thing,
is it's the wild West right now, and people that
are uh, I don't know, people that are aggressive and
inspired and interested in how to how to work this

(01:19:34):
new thing. There's like a lot of potential, you know,
if you get if you get over like overstimulated with
like oh my god, nothing is the same as it was.
You can you can just be in depression all day long.
But as someone that started as a street performer and
is sitting next to you right now, I'm like, this
isn't We're gonna be good. Do you consider the road
to be fun or work? No? The more like I

(01:19:58):
would hope anybody if you work this hard at thirty six,
most of the things that I'm doing, I'm like, I'm
gonna go right with some of the best. I'm like,
incredible writers. I get to I get to get into situations,
you get a movie what Curious George called me. They're like,
do you want to do the theme song? I'm like, yes,
that sounds awesome like my days that the work that
I get to do is so fulfilling and interesting and

(01:20:18):
fascinating that it's the work part is uh, just like
running a business is hard and the weight that comes
with that on your shoulders. But that's what you do
that okay, we're talking about it's the wild West in
the business and you have your niche are you just

(01:20:39):
riding the pony or you say no, I want to
get here and I want to figure out the zigarad
to get there. No, we gotta go away bigger. There's
a lot more people that want that, like me, that
have no idea who I am and how are you
going to reach them? Um. Yeah, I think we're figuring
it out. I think by continue to put out music
that is that that hopefully no other the other people

(01:21:00):
aren't putting out. Point of view wise, I think that
it's a time, especially right now, where hope and optimism
is actually like kind of in. I would think more
than other times I've felt it being someone who is myself. Okay,
I can feel when it's like in and when it's
not in, and I think we're all a little bit
freaked out about how everything's going. And someone that brings,

(01:21:23):
you know, with don't give up on me. I've been
doing these videos. Well we'll just like roll up on
people that are going through it and we'll sing directly
to them, sometimes with kids. And those videos have been
going crazy online and everybody's into it, and so just
who I am naturally is a good It's a good
time for that so I really want to go. Do
you believe that these successes in the New world or

(01:21:43):
happy accidents or you can plan them both. You plan
the best you can and then you have no It's
like music, and this is kind of a dumb question
about all ask in anyway, what do you think is
the primary driver of your career at this point? Still
still primary song? Okay, I should ask question a little

(01:22:06):
bit different once you have the product the song, what
is most important Spotify, radio, Facebook, video, what do you
think or really it's a combination of everything. So we're
talking about dude, this is so confusing. I think that
you do. It's like this weird thing of all of it,
which then I'll send you into a tailspan. But also

(01:22:29):
I think that you can't say it's the same for everyone.
So I've had big hits that are like I have
a song fresh Eyes that was like not a hit
on the radio, it's million plays on Spotify and it
is a super it's a hit. So like, I think
we have to be careful of what the driver is
for this one and then follow where that where it's

(01:22:50):
telling you to go and maximize in that area for
each one. Okay, you're a happy optimist. To what degree
are you fearful of doing something that might alienate your
audience less now than ever? So what was it like before?
Before I was worried that I was, that I was
gonna be cheesy. I was really overly worried that, um,

(01:23:13):
I would turn someone off by being just my, my,
the true vibe that I am. And the incredible book
called This Is Marketing by Seth Godin. Do you know
Seth Godin? How do you email with him? Yesterday? God?
That guy? Is he gonna come on here? Well? You
know he Well he's in New York. I didn't even
he is fantastic. He has a book called This Is Marketing,

(01:23:33):
and and uh he had. I was listening to the
audiobook and I get pulling over to write the right
notes down. One of them was, Um, you really gotta
be okay with telling a large group of the country
this is not for you. When you do that, when
you fully say this is not for you, who it's
for they go, oh, my God, that's my guy. And
you're not like denying people. You're just by who you are,

(01:23:56):
being like, this is who I am. And if if
I like concretely say that, then some people inevitably will
be like, you know it's not for you, okay, but
we live in a you know, complicated error. So just
you know, this may not fit with your image. But
if you say, would you be fearful of making a
political endorsement for fear that it might alienate part of

(01:24:18):
your audience? Um? Yeah, I don't do any as of
a high You're not on the line with any political party,
so I don't do any police, but I don't like
register as someone. I don't play anything. He's got an
offer for a convention, and I was like, you know,
based on your faith, faith, okay, but to what degree
you're in the show or you're doing press, would you
be worried about saying something that might be seen as unpopular?

(01:24:42):
Not a lot, I don't. I don't think about that
very much. Okay. Terms of social media, to what degree
you personally post on social media? All of them? No?
You but you yourself? How much your day has spent, God,
it's a lot, man. Well that's why I'm so. I
just came from a two hour session where I, like,

(01:25:06):
you know, figuring out what it is we're gonna post,
and then I sit and write all the captions for it,
and then that's like the steady stream that I look
at and see and we create a person on the
payroll or and then uh, and then you mix that
in with stuff that just happens that I love, I mean,
and my daughter or whatever what else is going on.
Then it's just like, throw up, what's the most powerful

(01:25:26):
platform for your career? I have the most follows on YouTube? Uh,
then comes Facebook and then Instagram. There's so much work
to be done, good God, and they all need different
you know, like again if you get, if you get,
you can go down a spiral in your brain where
you're like, this is insanity. But for me, what happened

(01:25:47):
was I started to realize that, like, I love what's
in my heart getting to your heart, and I genuinely
if that's a caption, I still really like that. So
the album have exploded for me this year of like
what the goal it used to be? You do all
this work to create one thing and then you give
it to everybody at one moment, and then everybody likes

(01:26:09):
that one thing, and that doesn't seem to be the
most effective way right now to get from what's in
me to you. There's like you have to kind of
blow it up and be like, it's all of the album.
The whole thing is the album. The album artwork is
that makes the questions you do have an album at all?
Or just constantly put out material you could do? You know?
To me, it's that I wrote a hundred you want
to hear some of them, but I got a lot here.

(01:26:33):
What you post on YouTube, some of these originals that
are not on the album. Yeah, I think that, you know,
that's a good question. We're looking at, you know, what
exactly it looks like moving forward? I don't know. I
do think that there's something about a collection of songs
can be how you're feeling at that moment, and it's
kind of nice to put them all together, but not important. Okay,

(01:26:55):
and you have people working for you posting your words.
But do you interact with your fans on social media?
Oh yeah, totally. I mean everybody, and we're also addicted
to it. I'm on Instagram, on Facebook responding. I have
something called Community, which is the texting service. I was
on that really early, and I'll do stuff on Community
where I'll be like, uh, check it out. I am

(01:27:18):
playing a show in Minneapolis and there's Duncan Donuts down
the street. If you're there in the next twenty five minutes,
I'll take a picture and hang with everybody. How I've
proad about eight of those. Those are really fun. And
you shut down Dunkan Donuts, and it's like we have
videos on all my socials of like, oh my god,
oh shit, the people have dunking donuts like you got
a lot of this is insane And if you had

(01:27:40):
any bad experience, who's interacting with the po No, especially
my group of fans are usually really sweet. Okay, Andy,
this is a big thing. You're go on forever. Such
an interesting dude to me, this is a really full
circle moment. I've been reading you. You've been someone in
my life that has been very like because you you

(01:28:04):
are coming from honesty and truth. Usually that's the that
seems like the highest thing for you. Uh, that resonates
with me and I have had I remember reading literally
reading your letter sitting on the little sidewalk as a
street performer. So it is wonderful to have a conversation
with you, my friend. Well, I can't see this is audio.
I'm smiling on that note until next time. This is

(01:28:27):
the Bob Left Sets podcast,

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Host

Bob Lefsetz

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Andy Grammer