David Goggin & Martin Porter

The story of their new book "Buzz Me In: Inside the Record Plant Studios."

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Come, Welcome back to Bob Leftstats Podcast. My guests
today are Martin Porter and David Gogin, who've written the
book Buzzed Me In Inside the Record Plant Studios. Gentlemen,
what was the inspiration for this book?

Speaker 2 (00:25):
Chris Stone Christone was here for inspiration of this book.
He was a character and he was one of the founders.
And not only did I know him, you know, twenty
twenty years ago, but now maybe about forty five years ago.
It's when we met when I was a journalist writing
writing about recording studios, and the guy could tell a
story and we would talk and he would talk and

(00:49):
I would and I would say, Chris, someday you gotta
write a story. And Chris would say, Marty, I'm never
writing a story. This is this is going to the
grave with me. These stories are go to the grave.
That was Everything took place in our record plan was private,
and we probably promised absolute privacy to our customers. And
I kept after him. I'm a journalist. I just kept
after him, after and after him. And then then about

(01:09):
ten years ago, you know, I was in a different
world and doing different things, and Chris was still working,
you know, he was always coming up with new ideas,
and suddenly he started soften and he had a house
in Hancock Park, and I went to visit him in
LA and we sat in the backyard. He always mixed
a great drink, and he said, and there was his buddy, David.

(01:32):
David Goggin and David and I know each other for years.
David was not only a columnist in the recording business
when I was an editor and a publisher, but he
and Stone were buddies, and he worked for Stone, and
Stone put us together. He said, all right, you know
what it's time, I'll write the book, right, But you
guys worked together, so you know, this book got published.

(01:52):
A Stone is long past but died in what twenty sixteen,
But we're the deal that Stone put together from the
grave basically.

Speaker 1 (02:02):
Okay, David, how did you know Stone?

Speaker 3 (02:05):
I first met Stone in the early eighties and I
just come to Los Angeles from a I was running
a recording studio down in Newport Beach, and we got
to know each other. I think he asked me to,
you know, see if I could do some promotion for

(02:28):
something that he was doing at the studio, and we
did that for a while. He's the only person who
ever yelled at me because I put out a press
release or something a story without checking with him. It
didn't cause any problems, but he I learned a lot
about Stone at that point, and then around nineteen eighty four,

(02:51):
he decided that they wanted to move the studio and
he asked me to reassure the public and the artists
and the musicians and the engineers that the story would
continue at the new record plan. So we together worked
on a grand finale. We had a big party in

(03:14):
December of eighty five. I dubbed it the Last Cham.
Many of the artists who had been there in the
past twenty fifteen years came. It was a concert with
Joe Walsh and Stephen Stills, al Cooper. The place was

(03:34):
just packed with you can imagine hundreds of people who
would work there. And then the groundbreaking took place and
the studio moved someplace else on Sycamore. So that's where
we started, and then I continued working with him until
he cashed out and sold it to Chrysalis and George Martin.

(03:58):
I photographed the guys having dinner and Stone was a
happy man. But he came up with a bunch of
other projects that he wanted to do, and I ended
I got roped into the World Studio Group, and I
and SPARS and a bunch of other industry organizations, and
we became friends. And he taught me how to make

(04:19):
a martini.

Speaker 1 (04:21):
Okay, so Chris Stones put the two of you together.
What's the next step?

Speaker 3 (04:28):
Take it away, Marty.

Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yeah. The next step was that we started talking to him.
And David's based in LA. I was in La in
those days once a week. I'm a New Yorker, and
we just would spend time with him, and he would
tell stories of Stone. You know, you know, not only
could mix martini, but he could but he could talk.
And he had a couple of things that were important
were important to him. Okay. One, I didn't know he

(04:53):
had a partner in the early days. I didn't even
know that what the deal was because I had met
him after his partner, Gary Calgrin, passed away, so I
never knew that. So he said, listen, you know what
the story's not about me. Here's the deal, right, if
you're going to write a book, I'll tell you. I'll
give you the framework for the story. I'll give you
the outline. I'll give you some great stories never been
told before. But you've got to not only make sure

(05:14):
that Gary is recognized and that people know who Gary
Calger was and Gary cut Kelger and was not only
the visionary, the engineer, but you know, but the co founder.
You got to make sure that people know who Gary was.
But also these albums, this studio doesn't didn't happen without
every everybody. So you got to get on the phone

(05:34):
and talk to other people. This can't be the Chris
Stone story. This has got to be the Record Plan story.
And the Record Plant story includes everybody, from the artists
to the producers, to the engineers, the assistant engineers, to
the truck drivers, the studio managers, the administrators. Talk to
as many people as you can, and that was Stone's goal.
So we just started talking and we talked. Ten years later,

(05:57):
we kept talking and already putting it together. So that
was the next step. It was just a lot of stories,
and yeah, there were people who didn't want to speak.
They said it was private, they said that. You know, listen,
you know the purpose of Record Plant was there was
a closed doors there with locked doors. We didn't want
to you know, we didn't want to tell those stories.
But suddenly as people time went on, people started talking.

(06:20):
And the more people talk, the more people shared, the
more open they were. And Stone also had a lot
of influence. Stone had a lot, you know, people trusted Stone,
they trusted us and to tell the real story. And gradually,
over time the stories were told and more people shared
their experiences.

Speaker 1 (06:40):
How many people said, I got to tell you this story,
but you can't include it in the book.

Speaker 3 (06:50):
Oh, I don't know. That must be ten or twenty.
But they told us as much, and I just said,
let's keep talking. And then they say, well, let's not,
let's out. I'd like to mention also that this period
twenty fourteen before Stone's death. In twenty sixteen, Party and
I got the idea that we were trying to get

(07:12):
the Hall of Fame Tech Award at the NAM Show,
and so we started getting in touch with people to
participate in that. And Stone made his patio in his
place in Los Angeles Hancock Park available, so we had
people come in, we filmed them, and it was kind

(07:34):
of a tough thing. Part of it was reconnecting with
Gary Calgrin's widow, who had not been in touch with
the Stones for many many years. I'm not saying they
were ill feelings, but I was involved in kind of
bringing people together again for this Tech Award. They shot

(07:58):
a movie five that movie, we rallied for this award
and we got it and there was a big event
at NAM and I interviewed before the event for this award,
Bill Simsic, producer of the Hotel California, and Joe Walsh,

(08:23):
and they told stories and Stone was in the audience.
And at that at the beginning, Joe Walsh and Stone
had not seen each other for quite a while. There
was a rift not emotionally but for other reasons that
had to separate these two guys. But it was all

(08:45):
resolved and Joe jumped off the stage and came over
and bent over and hugged Chris Stone. And an hour
later Stone got the award and Calgrin got it posthumously
and it was presented by Simsic producer and Joe Wolfsh

(09:06):
So that actually accelerated the contact with people to rally
the groups of people that the individuals and the companies
and all the people that had worked for them at
Record Plan and then from there it was a lengthy
process tracking some of these people down. But I think

(09:30):
we got to a lot of people, some of them
who are no longer with us. So we were able
to scramble and get some stories from people that you
can't get anymore.

Speaker 1 (09:45):
Okay, is this a labor of love or is this
something you actually said, Well, you know, this could catch on.
I could make some money here.

Speaker 3 (09:55):
It wasn't about the money. No, We've got hopes. We
think the result is worthy of, you know, a huge
media empire.

Speaker 2 (10:07):
Listen, Let's let's be honest. There's not a lot of
money in books. You don't spent ten years on a
book like this and expect to get rich. We put
a lot of time and money into it as well.

Speaker 3 (10:19):
It came.

Speaker 2 (10:20):
You know, remember this was a part of my life
and a big part of David's life for even longer.
You know, in the late seventies, when I was editing
a trade magazine called Proson News, I wasn't really aware
that I was in a very special time, in this
very special place. And as sort of as you get
older and as time goes on, I realized, wait a minute,
you know, there was something there. There was something bigger

(10:42):
than just a job writing interviewing studio owners and engineers
and producers. It was, you know, it was a special time.
And more I look back on it, you know, I
felt a bit of an obligation, a bit of a
you know, a feeling that you know what I was.
I had an obligation to tell some of these stories

(11:05):
to people and to really share it, because you know,
people didn't. If you ask people, you know, do you
know any recording studios, they'll say, yeah, I've heard, I
know Abbey Road. You know, not a lot of studios
are known by were named by a beatle or had
an album named after it. And then you ask them
what else do you know? They know elect electric ladies studios,

(11:26):
They know that, right, But then you go any deeper.
You got to be pretty tweeked out and pretty nerdy
to no recording. So is then you start talking about
the age of analogue, and you're talking about what it
was like in those days and how it worked and people.
I started hoping, and I realized, you know what, that
was a special time, and you know what, I was
there and I know people who were there, and so

(11:49):
it was a labor of love and it still was
a labor love. We're not done, you know. Yeah, do
we hope it turns into something bigger? Yeah, we want
to tell our story in the biggest possible way. But
and we're happy to that people like you want to
share share it with your audience. But it is a
labor love and that's my wife unless she gave up
a lot of time for us doing interviews, David me

(12:11):
on interviews and a lot of time writing this thing.

Speaker 1 (12:13):
Okay, Well, now that the book is out, are you
finding that people are reacting coming out of the woodwork
and more people know we're interested or is it an
uphill climb to make people aware of the record plan
in your book?

Speaker 3 (12:29):
Marty, I think you can answer this. But we've got
this book started out called record Plant Diaries for reasons
that we will get into maybe maybe not. We decided
that it was a better title, buzz me in, and
we have a Facebook page. But it's just growing what

(12:52):
are they called greatly every week with new followers and
people coming out of the woodwork and asking questions and
then saying, oh, I was there, you know, and it's
it's become quite the rallying cry for people. So many
people we try to figure out how many people worked
at the Record plan and in its history, and it

(13:14):
must be among the thousands, and some of them started
out cleaning toilets and today are billionaires. So that's that
was the proving ground for people.

Speaker 1 (13:26):
I got to stop you for a second because we're
all prone to hyperbole. Billion dollars, there's a lot of money.
Can you tell me about somebody who really started cleaning toilets?
Was that successful?

Speaker 2 (13:38):
Well? I don't, I don't know if well, listen, the
only billionaire that I know about who worked the record
was Jimmy Ivan, right, right, did Jimmy did Jimmy? Did
Jimmy start cleaning toilets? I know we started as a
runner a general. I know Jack Douglas started as janitor.
I'm not as sure exactly if that meant putting up

(14:00):
in the toilet and wiping it out, wiping out the bowl.
But you know what they did, some of they did
some pretty damn menial, crappy jobs. Right. So the only
billionaire that I do know is who started a record
plant was Jimmy Shoes IV.

Speaker 1 (14:17):
Okay, those inside know that he was called Jimmy Shoes.
Can you explain why.

Speaker 3 (14:24):
He had fancy shoes and that's where all his money went,
the small amount he was making as a general. I
love that term too. Uh. We called them runners, we
called them gophers, all sorts of things. But he was
a general. He started out at the bottom. He was
a pretty uh you know, feisty kid. When you know

(14:47):
his first one of his first big gigs was with
with John Lennon, and that was the lost weekend. He'd
never lived, stayed in a hotel. He'd never been in
an airplane. He ends up flying to Los Angeles and
staying at the Beverly Hilton and because Beverly Hills Hotel.

(15:10):
And he attributes his success as a businessman to the
way record plant was run. And that was run by
Chris Stone and Gary Calgren and Roy Cicala, New York.
Of course, they used to have buttons made that said
j F J jump for your job. The pressure was

(15:34):
on if you were in, if you were the second engineer,
and all you had to do was push the tape
machine button. Your job was on the line every minute.
They knew that these clients were the ones that were
staying around the clock, and there were no clocks at
their record plant.

Speaker 2 (15:54):
Listen, they had a really good gig going the Stone
and Calgrin and Sicala, they knew one thing. There were
a lot of young kids who would work cheap or
free just to get in the door, to get close
to the artists. Right. And so when you have that
opportunity and you're an entrepreneur and you're running a business
and you have all this young hungry talent that are

(16:14):
working around the clock just to work in a recording studio.
What an opportunity from a business standpoint. And you know what,
you got to test those kids out. You got to
push those kids to the limit. And you know what,
some of them don't make it. Most of them don't
make it, but some of them do make it. And
that was that was the secret sauce of Record Plant

(16:35):
where those young kids who came in the door Kelgrin,
you know, Calgrin kid found out an amazing thing is
one thing to run a recording So you need fancy equipment,
You needed big consoles, you needed big tape machines, you
needed expensive microphones. What you really needed was a kid
who knew how to wheel a hammer and build shit. Right.

(16:56):
They needed to build gobos, They needed to tear down
walls to build take a door off, so you get
a piece of equipment off. So the truth of the
matter was that kids would do it. You'd had to
find a kid who was willing to do anything, and
there were plenty of them.

Speaker 1 (17:22):
Okay, just you know, there's legends of people you mentioned
who started at the bottom. How many people washed out
that we haven't heard of.

Speaker 2 (17:32):
I think most of them did. I don't have a number,
but think about it. It tough gig. You weren't making
any money. In fact, you know, in the early days,
Kelgrin had this concept that the kids would work for free.
You know, Brooks Arthur and Phil Ramon had a studio
up up in west Chester, New York nine went four

(17:54):
where Bruce Springsteen worked and a lot of other artists
work where they got all these kids paying them to
be assistants. So it was you know, it was a
great time. So how many washed out? A lot of them.
But the kids who stuck it out, and the kids
who worked and proved that they could serve the artist
who could had the right attitude and had ears and

(18:17):
learned could learn audio chops stayed and many became successful
and many became famous. We've talked about iveen as being
the billionaire, but not everybody was a billionaire. Some became
big artists. Todd Rumgrey was an assistant engineer in New York.
So not only did some become artists, but many became
producers as well, and obviously very successful engineers.

Speaker 1 (18:41):
Let's start at the beginning with kelgrim One thing that
you emphasize in the book that I've never seen previously
is that he was a great engineer, an innovative engineer,
which he does not get credit for. Would you bring
up in the book can you tell me about that?

Speaker 3 (19:00):
Well, I know Jim Keltner and he goes back to
the very very early days of working with Kelgrin. I
like to think of Jim Keltner as the heartbeat record
plan because he was there at the beginning, and he
was there till the end, and he was very close
to Kelgren. And you know, he speaks about the magical

(19:23):
ability of him, of Kelgrin at the console to be
able to rope together all these sounds, set things up
in the studio and make it happen like people were
just mesmerized at the way he he can wave his
hands over the console and move the faders and get
sounds out of what might have ended up as chaos.

Speaker 2 (19:48):
Well, but you know, let's start at the beginning, because
the beginning was a studio called Mayfair on Seventh Ave
in New York. The Summer of Love nineteen sixty seven,
Algrin was working in the studio and he was working
for three bands at the same time. He was working
for lou Reed and Velvet Underground doing White Light, White Heat.

(20:11):
He was working for Frank Zappa doing We're only needed
for the money, and he was working with Jimmy Hendrix
on a couple of songs. And he he could keep
not only could he keep up with the artists and
work around the clock with the arts and juggle the
egos of all those three arts. Remember Zappa and Louie
didn't like each other in those days. And be able
to juggle those two artists at the same time in

(20:33):
the same studio was an art form. But Kelgrin had
worked for his producer, his producer, and that we could
there should be a book, there should be a movie
about him named Tom Wilson, and Tom Wilson was block
book Mayfair and he was working with his two artists,
which were Velvet Underground, and Frank Zappa at that time.

(20:55):
But Kelgrin knew how to record, and his talents were
you know, remember when you're an engineer, not only do
you need to know how to get a great sound,
but you know how to stay cool, stay calm, and
just work yourself to death. And Kelgrin had an incredible
work ethic. But through Tom Wilson, and we'll hopefully we

(21:16):
could talk a little bit more about Tom in a moment.
Through Tom Wilson, he it did an album called sky
Pilot for Eric Burton, all right, and that's a famous song,
and for a lot of reasons, obviously, not only because
of its anti war theme, but because of the sounds
that he was able to provide to Eric Burton. It

(21:37):
was a sound called phasing, all right. If you listen
to that record, if you really want to understand music
in the late sixties, remember you're dealing with a period
before there were digital effects, before there was any kind
of ability to press a button and make wacky sounds, right,
there was before even synthesizers. You had to be able

(21:58):
to jockey the sound the analog tape machine and play
around with with the reels and create and create sounds
one of those sounds that had been knocking around for
years was called phasing, all right, and what what the
what the engineer would do is it would take one
of the reels and and and jockey it almost you know,

(22:19):
almost like a disc jockey, but with the two reels.
And Kalgun got really good at phasing. And the work
that he did with Eric Burden got you know, got
him a lot of attention, and not only got him
attention with with a lot of the bands in Townies
particularly got him attention with with Chas Chandler who was
managing uh managing Jimmy. And when Jimmy heard heard that work,

(22:44):
and when the words started spreading that this kid knew
how to phase like he did, he got a lot
of attention because remember it was it was it was
summer love, it was psychedelic period, it was crazy effect.
Getting crazy effects, whether their visual or sonic, was what
it was all about. And an engineer who could do
that like Calgrin started to getting the business. And not

(23:06):
only was did he become an amazing engineer, but he
was innovative and he was fearless and true and that
was that was what made him special.

Speaker 3 (23:15):
We got a back up here just a little bit
to explain how Kilgrin met Stone.

Speaker 1 (23:20):
Wait wait, wait, before we get there, when he's working
at Mayfeir, has he met Stone yet?

Speaker 3 (23:26):
Yes, that was the moment actually, Dave, Okay, I just
want to I.

Speaker 1 (23:30):
Want to go sideways before we come back. Tom Wilson's
a fascinating story. A black man in white rock and roll.
It was way before there were so many images. But
he produced all the Bob Dylan records. He produced as
you say, Zappa, you know what was his special sauce?

Speaker 2 (23:52):
Well, his special sauce was depends you talk to right,
h If you talk to some people, it was he
He was the ultimate Schmuezer if you talk to others.
He was a brilliant producer, what Stone told us, because
Stone knew him really well. He knew how to let
the artist do do their thing. He gave them room

(24:14):
and what what you know, But he was but the
thing that you know, remember he came to he was
working with Calgrin after he was already famous, right, he
had became famous by you know, by turning Dylan onto
electric you know, at Colombia. He you know, he saved
sounds of silence for Simon and Garfunkel, but you know
by going back in the studio and remixing it. He

(24:37):
was a famous dude man. And he was a black
guy who was working in white rock and roll at
those days, which was unique. It came back to hurt
him and later in his career when he got stereotype.
But at that time he was hot and he was
not only did what he was working for, you know,
for Columbia, he went on, he did a tremendous amount

(24:59):
of folk music. Then he's then it was when he
was working with Zappa and working with with Uh, with
Lou Reed, he was you know, he was making some
great records. But what was amazing about when he was
so well connected? So when when Stone Uh? When when
Stone met Kelgren at Mayfair, when they when the two

(25:20):
of them met Kelgrin. Kelgrin had this idea that he
could build a studio. Not only could he build a
great studio that like somebody had never built before, but
he could get business. The way he was going to
get business was because Tom Wilson knew everybody in town.
And it was gonna be by cutting in Wilson, by
giving him a piece of the action, by giving a

(25:41):
piece of the business that they knew that they were
going to be able to bill studio that was not
only going to uh serve Jimmy Hendrix, but was gonna
fill a void in the New York marketplace. And Wilson
not only played a role in the history of music,
but certainly there wouldn't have been a record Plant without

(26:02):
without Tom Wilson.

Speaker 1 (26:04):
Okay, just to stay here. It's a little different threat.
Once you hit the eighties, the record producers are really
handsomely compensated, whereas earlier some of them worked for the label.
How did it end for Tom Wilson? Did he have
any money? Did he burn out after his famous period?
What happened to him?

Speaker 3 (26:26):
It's kind of a sad story. Stone told us about this.
I mean, it got really bad for him. And he
was one of the early investors when they when they
formed the business of record Plant on forty fourth Street
in New York, Kelgrin and Stone met because their wives,
one was pregnant and one had just had a baby,
and that was the reason they had a little party

(26:49):
and Kelgrin, uh Well, Stone asked if he could come
by and see where he worked. He came in, he
found out that Kelgrin was making two hundred bucks a
week and he's working with those three or it is,
and he said, look, you need a raise. First of all,
he got him a raise, and then they decided they
needed one hundred grant And where's that money gonna come from?

(27:10):
There's a lot of money in those days. Stone was
friends with Ankie Marty you tell the rest of the
Hankee story.

Speaker 2 (27:21):
Yeah, there were four partners when record Plants started. There
was Calgrin and Stone we talked about. There was Tom Wilson,
but none of them had the money that it took
to pull this off, right. But Stone had a roommate
named Ben Johnson from college who was who had a
new wife. Her name was Ankie her originally Ankie Johnson,
but original name before she was divorced from Charles Revson

(27:44):
of Revlon Fame. Right. And not only did Stone worked
for Revlon and before that, well before he started a
record plant, but he knew that he knew that Ankie
Revson really loved the New York hip be seen. She
was you know, remember she was a divorcede. She uh,
but she was loaded and she put her put her

(28:04):
money into interesting business ventures. One Uh that that you
that everybody will know was she was one of the
prime investors in hair, the Broadway musical Hair, and she
was making tons of money that time from this hippie world.
So when Stone came to her with the idea that
he was going to build a recording studio, Ankie was
ready to write a check. She was just you know,

(28:26):
why not. So it was one hundred grand to build
the studio. So it was the four partners and the
main the main partners, the ones who owned most of
the business was Ankie Revsen, uh A Johnson and uh
and uh Gary Calgrin the talent. Stone was the business
brains and and Wilson was only in it for a

(28:46):
piece so he could so he could, uh you know,
bring in the artists. But when you talked before and
you asked the question Bob about about Wilson, Wilson's career,
you know, uh came to a pretty abrupt then by
the time we were we were into the seventies, you know,
its seventies. He just wasn't He was stereotyped, as you know,

(29:08):
as a black rock and roll producer. He he had
an idea and a dream to build to do a
a rock opera that that never came fulfilled. It became
a sad story and ultimately Built died early of a
massive heart attack. You know, So his career came to

(29:30):
an abrupt nd. And but boy, the early days rock
and roll wouldn't have been what it was without Tom Wilson,
and certainly there wouldn't have been a record plant.

Speaker 1 (29:39):
Okay, we're ultimately going to get to the record plant
on Third Street. Los Angeles is a giant suburb in
most cases, but New Shirk is very dense. They put
the studio in an office building. How does that work
in terms of you know, sound reinforcement, et cetera.

Speaker 3 (30:00):
That's an interesting angle because Kelgrin was good at finding locations.
How you're going to finance it or what are you
going to do with it then is a problem. But
he was hanging out with Hendrix at a nightclub nearby,
and Hendricks wanted to have a nightclub studio. He wanted
to take that atmosphere of jamming with his friends and

(30:22):
into the studio and get it recorded properly so that
he could continue his career as a recording artist. So
now's your turn, Marty.

Speaker 2 (30:35):
Well, remember there were studios in New York, you know,
but mostly they were label owned studios in those days, right,
and the times were changing, and the artists wanted freedom
to work in a private space away from their corporate overlords. Right,
so that you know, it was Jimmy had it. Jimmy

(30:56):
had it. It started. It all starts with Jimmy Hendrix.
Remember the record planning store starts with Jimmy Hendrick. It
starts in New York. Hendricks had done some recording on
what would become Electric Electric ladyland in in England. He
came over to New York and he told Calgarn he
needed a studio to finish the album Stone Stone and

(31:16):
Calgrin already talking. The money came in from Aankee. Wilson
was involved, and the idea is are, okay, we got
to find a space. Now on the west side you're
talking about the west side of Times Square right now,
there was a nightclub called The Scene. Steve Paul's the Scene,
all right. Now. The Scene is another historic rock and

(31:37):
roll uh a facility whatever you're wanna call location, all right,
because that's where some of the most amazing jam sessions
ever took place. You have Jim Morrison jamming with Jimmy.
You have you know, you know the Winter Brothers Jammy,
you have you know if you Linda, Linda Eastman, Nay Turner, McCartney,

(31:59):
the house photographer, you have tiny Tim playing the Mandal,
amazing stuff. Rick Darren's you're playing. There was an amazing
place and it was a and Jimmy loved jamming there
and so and it became the Not only was it
named the scene, it became a scene. So kelgar knew, okay,
you know what I got Hendrix here, I got all
these musicians, like David said Kelgwun's a genius at finding

(32:23):
the location. You know, how do you become how do
you find successful business? How do you build a good story? Location? Location, location,
So so Kelgrit said, Okay, I gotta find a building
within a walking distance of the scene. Right, So the
scene was on forty sixth Street. He found this office
building on forty fourth Street, three twenty one West forty

(32:43):
fourth Street off eighth Avenue. Right Now, that that building
itself was historic. It was it was the old Vitagraph building.
That's the if you know New York, that side of
New York was the Film District that. You know, it's
not Hollywood, but there was. That's where the movie business started, remember,
and that's where all the the you know, the film

(33:03):
businesses had their building. So that was the Ftograph Building
and Fighter Graphs famous for a couple of reasons, but
one of it is they developed talking the talking technology
that Warner end Up used for al Joson. Right, So
that building had audio in its bones. Right. But you know, listen,
you could soundproof of any space with enough wood and

(33:25):
you know padding. It's not not unique. But Calgrin found
this space. And the tory story we tell in the book,
which is, you know which one of the great stories
that Stone told us early on about the really early
days was they didn't want to make a deal on
the lease on that building to build the studio unless
they knew that Jimmy was all in. So they came

(33:49):
up with his plan, right to get Jimmy over to
the forty fourth Street to show him the space. But
it was just an empty giant you know, you know,
it was an office building. It was an the office building.
So they get Kelgrin had a piece of chalk, right,
and he was a great salesman, so he walks walks
Hendricks into the space and he says, all right, you know,

(34:10):
just imagine what the space is gonna look like. You're
gonna have beautiful hippie Moroccan cloths, and you're gonna have
paintings by Dolly and Warhol, and we're gonna have everything here.
It's gonna beautiful. It's gonna be it's gonna be a
real living room. It's gonna be a beautiful space, and
it's gonna be unique. It's not gonna be like anything
you ever saw. People and Stone and he pitched. They

(34:32):
pitched each other and they worked on the pitch, and
Kelgrin basically sold Jimmy on this empty space with a
piece of chalk in his mouth and a sales pitch.
And once once Jimmy said I'm in, they signed the
lease and they went to work and they built the
place within about four or five months. By by the
spring of nineteen sixty eight, the place was ready to open.

(34:57):
So it was it was a unique story. It was
a unique place, but it was it was all built
on a fundamental premise that a studio needed to be
more a living room than a lab. It needed to
be a place where you could be comfortable, where you
could jam, where you could be relaxed, and nobody was
breathing down your neck. Remember in David, you know, you

(35:18):
know what the studios were like in those days. You know,
you've talked about it a lot. They were you know,
you know, maybe David whytn't you to share what was it?
What were they like in those days?

Speaker 3 (35:28):
Well, they were like Abbey Road probably where everybody's wearing
lab coats, and that the sessions were regulated by the union.
So if you were in the middle of a Hendrick
solo at noon and it was time to have lunch,
you know, the plugs would have been pulled and you said, no,
we have to continue after lunch. So this studio record

(35:51):
Plant changed that. Kilgrin walked around with that shock and
he said, here's gonna here's where we're going to have
the control room, here's the isolation room, here's going to
be the canteen. Whatever. That was part of the sales job.
But as far as the actual building of the studio,
you know, kelgern knew what he wanted to have sounding

(36:13):
and record Plant always had the best acousticians that could
manipulate those spaces in the best way. Possible to capture
the music that these guys had in their heads. The
translation of what they had in their mind into reality
was what the record plant was all about.

Speaker 1 (36:42):
Okay, when the record plant opens, how many studios in
how big a space? I mean every studio is different.
Some there's a very small lounge, a control room and
a room for recording. Others have multiple rooms, they have offices.
When it opens, what is there?

Speaker 2 (37:00):
There's one studio and an office. That's it, right, And
and yes it was unique. It had it had cool
uh you know, cool cloths, curtains on the wall, and
the concept was making make it like olivery. But it
had one thing that was very unique. It had a
twelve track recorder. Right now, remember you know it was

(37:23):
just the very beginning of multi track recording, right and
you know A track would had just come into town.
And Mayfair, which we talked about, had one of the
first A tracks in town. In fact, it was the
first time Jimmy worked on an A track was over
at Mayfair. But the skull the Scully had come up
with a concept for a twelve track recorder and it

(37:45):
was a very unique idea. Not only did it give
give more tracks for the artists to record on. But
it also uh gave them a unique way of taking
an a track tape right, bringing it into the studio,
putting and be giving the artists a chance to add
four more tracks to the recording. So it was that

(38:07):
Scully that really was was a major draw for Record
Plan And they had a console that was called Data Mix,
which was also relatively new, but it was it was.
It was the early days of multi track recording and
having those more tracks was a huge draw.

Speaker 1 (38:26):
Okay, you're in the profound business setting the scene here.
We live in a completely different era. We talk about
Jimmy Shoes being a billionaire. At the time, you're talking
about if you were a successful musician, top tier, you
were as rich as anybody in America. Okay, that is
not the case anymore. They are starting this studio to

(38:49):
what degree are they economically driven We are going to
start a studio, we're going to get rich, or they
just say we like to work. This is a business.

Speaker 3 (38:59):
They're going to charge a lot and they're going to
keep the artist working twenty four hours a day and
there's nobody's going to look at the clock because there's
no clocks. The money's going to be rolling in, and
there's money going to be made from all the tape
that they're selling. These guys are going through two inch

(39:20):
reels of tape, box loads, box loads of this, and
the record company's sense that something is happening and they
want to make money too. So the money is flowing
into the studio and that doesn't stop for a long time.
And the record Plant was notorious for having budgets that

(39:45):
so what it goes through the roof. The record company
didn't worry they're going to get the money back. When
you look at some of the record sales over a
Marty's got those figures better than me. One hundred million
records was not unheard of for one album.

Speaker 2 (40:05):
Well, and again you're talking about one hundred million albums
from seventy six for the three albums that recorded Record Plan.
But let me give you let me answer your question
this way, Bob. The studio sold for over a million
dollars within fourteen months of being opened. There was a
company called TVC. It was a cable company out of
Pennsylvania that had a vision. Right, they said, we have

(40:28):
a cable television is coming in right. This is the
early Remember This is another revolution is happening at the
same time as STEREO's happening, and the record business is
taking off, starting to take off. Cable television is taking off,
and they had a concept. They said, you know what,
we want to have music television. Somebody at TVC had
this concept for long before MTV for music television. So

(40:52):
how do we get into the music business. We got
to buy a recording studio. Now, Ankee was pretty connected.
Ankye made some connections. They stole the Gary Kelgren became
a millionaire within fourteen months of having that studio open.
And it was that was that that money that poured in.

(41:12):
A lot of the business came in because of Jimmy Hendrix.
The studio was busy round the clock. But it was
that that purchase by TVC, who ultimately sold the Warrant
Communications and which became Warner Cable, was what really made
the day. And answering your question, Stone was in it
for the money. Remember, so was Calgrin. Remember he was

(41:33):
working with Frank Zachsba on an album called We're Only
in It for the Money, right, Kelgrin and Stone were
in it for the money, and and yes, Kelgrin was
a brilliant artist and in his own way from a
business standpoint, Stone was a brilliant artist, right. But they
both had ambitions. They wanted cars, they wanted big houses.

(41:54):
Ultimately they wanted boats, and they had found the way
for it to happen. And when that sale happened, all right,
When that when that big sale happened, suddenly it opened
opened the eyes of a lot of other would be
entrepreneurs in town and around the country that there was
money to be made in the studio business. And uh

(42:14):
and it led to a boom in development of studios.
You know, it was not surprising that Jimmy Hendrick's management
wanted wanted me to build his own studio, Electric Lady Studios,
because clearly an outgrowth of the success of of Record
Plan and all the work Jimmy Hendrix did. There.

Speaker 1 (42:33):
Okay, two things. One did they build to sell? Did
they want to sell? Or was it just like, wow,
here's an opportunity. Also, you delineate in the book The
Studio then goes to a number of chapters talking about
the Pennsylvania Cable Company selling to Warner warn or not
really wanted to own the studio. Can you play that out.

Speaker 2 (42:55):
For us, Yeah, I could play that for you. Stone
and Stone and Kelgrin knew something that that the cable
company didn't know, right, you know, and if they didn't
tell them, one was their number one artist that was
keeping them fat and happy, was about to leave and
build his own studio. Right, you know, there was under construction.

(43:18):
So you could about to lose your biggest customer, right,
your calling cards. So they were about to lose that.
And two they also were aware of something even more significant.
The record business was moving to the West coast, right,
it was moving out of New York. The business was
hurt heading to LA and they realized, you know what,

(43:39):
They made a trip out to l A and they
their eyes open what was going on out there, and
they knew there was money out there, and they knew
that was their next move. So so they sold out
at the right time. And you know, it's all timing,
you know, did they did they do anything wrong?

Speaker 3 (43:58):
No?

Speaker 2 (43:58):
You know what, the studio stayed incredibly successful for a
long time. Warner didn't want to be in the studio
business for a lot of reasons, but one of the
reasons is it was a shitty business for a big
record label, and by the way. Their artists didn't want
to record in label on studios anymore. So it was working.
It was it was moving away from that that train.

(44:19):
But Stone and Kelgar knew one thing they were they
wanted to move out west. The business was moving out west.
The opportunity for growth was out west, and there was
a There was also other problems with New York. It's
an expensive place to operate. It's tight space. You know.
They ended up building a second studio in New York
on the first floor, but then to save Jimmy's business,

(44:40):
they opened another studio on the tenth floor. It was
you know, it wasn't there wasn't a lot of room
to move in New York. La had a lot more
room to move and it was a lot. It was
a whole you know, green field for the studio business.

Speaker 1 (44:52):
Okay, talking about the studio itself, you ran prosund Audio News.
It became an arms race that lasted into the eighties. Okay,
you got to have this first. It was yet to
have a better machine, had to have more tracks. We
ultimately get to twenty four. We want a stood oh
you know, we go through boards ultimately solid state you know,

(45:15):
sssal one with the you know, moving faders. How much
of a factor was the cost of this equipment and
keeping up with that cost.

Speaker 3 (45:25):
That's where Chris Stone comes into the picture. He figures
out ways that they can satisfy Gary Kelgrin's lust to
be a rock star. And one example is that, you
know Kelgrin. First he bought of Rolls Royce and the
license plate was greed. Stone goes shopping, says he's got

(45:48):
some cash too. He goes to the Mercedes dealership and
he's looking at their top of the line car and
he's trying to figure out how he's going to pay
for it and finagal this and finagal that, and the
salesman says, you know, did you ever think about leasing
a car? And this nobody knew about this new opportunity.

(46:12):
Stone leased the car, his license plate red deduct and
then he pioneered leasing recording equipment. If the you know,
a million dollar console, a two hundred thousand dollars maybe
more tape machine, very expensive stuff. Leasing opened that up

(46:35):
so that you could keep refreshing this stuff. Because it
was a battle of the technology at the time, and
the artist knew about this, the producers knew about this.
They wanted to be have access to the latest tools
to keep making these million selling albums, and record Plant

(46:56):
became the place where you could get whatever you wanted.
And that expands into the hotel rooms and the other
concierge and five star accommodations that fit in with the
latest equipment and the idea of financing this stuff. That's
where that's where Stone was. He was making it up

(47:18):
as he went along.

Speaker 1 (47:19):
Okay, so let's you know, they're in Los Angeles. We'll
get into the establishment that earlier. But picking up on
your theme, he leases his Mercedes, he approaches API, he
approaches stud or whatever, blah blah blah. Does he sell
them on leasing or have they ever thought of it?

Speaker 3 (47:40):
Marty probably know the business angle, you're better than me.
But my impression is that this was the beginning of
that that type of creative financing.

Speaker 2 (47:49):
That's where it was an you know, we talked, let
me put it frame it this way to you, Bob,
audio was the technology revolution of the time. Living in
a technology revolution now AI and you know, and but
those that was the audio revolution. You know, it was
a time where these guys were selling a lot of stuff.

(48:14):
People you know, Moran's was selling high fives and thrends,
and you know Pioneer, the high five was hot. Professional
equipment was hot. These guys were starting to make a
lot of money and they were suddenly everything was new,
everything was an opportunity. So if they listen, if somebody
came in and said I can lease the gear and

(48:36):
make payments, they were going to take it. You know,
we talked a lot about this book. You know, listen,
Sex Drugs rock and Roll. Yes, record Plant. The story
of Record Plant is sex, drugs and rock and roll,
But there was really a much more significant part of
the story that it should be should be added. When
we talked about this story, it was sex drugs, rock

(48:56):
and roll and audio and it was that was the
ultimate attraction of Record Plan. You had to have the
latest audio gear, the latest equipment, because that's what turned
on the artists. That's what really got the artists excited.
Yes they wanted to be comfortable, Yes they wanted all
the amenities, but they really wanted the ultimate sound. And

(49:19):
when when Stone and Calgrin moved to La there was
one other individual comes into play and significant character and
not only the history of Record Plan, but the history
of audio and professional recording. A guy named Tom Hidley
who passed away recently. Tom Hiley was an audio engineer

(49:40):
in LA and he'd worked in New York at A
and R. But he was working out in a studio
called TTG in LA where he was working with artists,
you know, like a lot of Tom Wilson's artists on
the West Coast were, you know, were TTG customers. And
this guy was a genius. He worked with He worked

(50:02):
in high fi with mad Men Months. I don't know
if you remember that name, but he also Madman Months,
but he you know, he worked for months. His most
famous product was he built a car stereo for Frank
Stinastra so Frank could listen to his his his cuts
on the way out to Palm Springs, all right, So

(50:23):
that was Tom Hitley and Tom Hilly was a genius.
Tom Hidley not only could build was building sixteen and
twenty four track tape machines before anybody. But he had
a TTG these amazing, amazing loud speakers that he developed,
right and you know what really attracted Stone and Kelgrin
to going out to the West Coast was that Jimmy

(50:44):
came back from working out a TTG and told Kelgrin,
you gotta go out to LA and meet this guy Hittley.
He's a genius. He's got some speakers. I've never heard
anything like it. So Kelgrin and Stone got on a plane.
They went out there and they heard that. They not
only they meet Hitdley, but they heard these loud speakers.
They knew those loud speakers in the right control room

(51:05):
would blow any artists and producer's mind and get their business.
So they they not only did they decide to build
the studio at that point, they they hired Hitly Away
and Hily. Hilly and Kelgrin as a pair were were
a brilliant pair. They build the revolution in the acoustical
environment of a studio. Hitley's Hitly's loud speakers were were

(51:31):
famous and they became They became noted around the world.
He Hilly ultimately put put those speakers in over a
thousand studios. They became the reference monitors of not only
that time, but many of them are still in place.
There's you know, David, you could tell the story about
you know about the James Gang in the and those speakers,
because it's one of the funny. One of the funny
stories of the early days of Record Plant was how

(51:53):
Hitly went out and built those speakers for for Kelgren
and Stone.

Speaker 3 (51:58):
Well, they're Bill Simsick is recording The James Gang with
his good buddy Joe Walsh. These guys want to play loud.
They want to record loud. They want to put to
the red line all the time, and when they hear

(52:20):
it back, they want to get blown away. I mean literally,
they just want to be blown away. So every day
they were in their playback, they had a rack of
these expensive I think tan Oi monitors in the studio,
and invariably, every day a couple of them would just,

(52:40):
I mean actually blow off the wall. They would demolish
themselves and they'd call Stone and say, look, you know
we blew the monitors out again. Stone would say, oh,
that's okay, we'll get you some new ones tomorrow. The
record company will pay for it. So there was actually
an unlimited supply of speakers, but it just got out

(53:02):
of hand. It was like every day they got to
replace the monitors. They called in Hitdley and said in
his task Tom, can you build a monitor that can
withstand the sounds of Bill Simsic and Joe Walls. She
was working on a song called the Bomber and it

(53:25):
was just it was just ruining every speaker. Hidley came up.
One was a monitor that could withstand the levels that
they wanted to listen to and end of that chapter.

Speaker 2 (53:39):
But they but not only did they build these monitors
and these big they were these big monitors with big
waffers and these big you know they call monkey monkey
lips monitors and these big protrusions in them, and they
build them into the soffits. But Hitley knew how to
build them in a control room, so they sounded amazingly.
He built this was called the compression ceiling that really

(54:03):
when the artist was sitting behind the console, that sound
was going right at the sweet spot right where they
were sitting. So the experience of a playback in a
hilly Calgrin control room was unlike anything else anybody had
ever heard. And that's you know, not only do those
monitors change the way people recorded record Plant, but like

(54:26):
I said, nearly a thousand studios later they were Hitley
built studios after we left Record Plant all over the world.

Speaker 1 (54:41):
So how did these two characters get along? Kel Grin
and Stone.

Speaker 3 (54:47):
Oh they got along glorious Stone, Stone's wife, who advised
Kelgrin's wife about how to have help her with the
birth of her first child. Uh told us that Kelgrin

(55:07):
just wanted to be a rock storm. He wanted everything.
He wanted boats, he wanted new studio rooms, new monitors, everything.
Their job was to satisfy Kelgrin and Uh, and they
did it as far as it was. It was a
constant back and forth pool between Kelgrin wanting more and

(55:31):
Stone going, how the hell are we going to pay
for this? They originally they wanted to have a he
wanted we're going to have a record We got to
have a swimming pool at the Record Plant in la Well.
Stone convinced him that maybe a jacuzzie would do. Uh
the jacuzzi room, and the jacuzzie became a hot bed

(55:52):
what do you call it when it's wet hot a
hot water bed of activity at the Record Planet. Legendary
stories of people saying, Oh, let's go use the jacuzie,
opening the door and going, oh my god, is that
Rod Stewart, Who's that over there in the corner? Oh God,
what's all that stuff floating? In the water. Oh no,

(56:13):
thank you, not today. You know, Buddy Miles said that
many babies of his babies were probably berthed in the
in the jacuzzie. I know this gets kind of raunchy sounding,
but these guys had a lot of money, the artists,
the producers, the record companies, and they also needed to

(56:35):
blow off some steam the pressure of making a record. Bob,
you've been in a recording studio, you know how exciting
it can be if you're just waiting in the outside
the vocal booth and you know that the guy in
there is cutting a record that everybody in the world
is going to hear in two weeks or six weeks

(56:56):
or whatever how long it takes. It's a it's a
supercharged environment. And if you've just had a big hit
and you got to hit another, get another hit, the
pressure is incredible, and you know, emotions get out of
control and things just get crazy, and you know, there

(57:16):
were some sad stories, but there were many great stories
and great records that we have today.

Speaker 2 (57:22):
But you're talking about the relationship between Stone and Calgrin
was an interesting really they were very complimentary but different personality.
Stone was the businessman, Kelgrin was the brilliant visionary and artist.
Calgrin was all about about creating new sounds, creating new visuals,
creating new space, using spaces in an innovative way. Stone
was about paying for the paying the bills, making sure

(57:44):
the artists were serviced, make sure that the business ran right.
Greed and deduct tell that tell us everything about the relationship.
And they and they were complimentary. You know. Somebody once
said to me, you know what, they were so different,
you know they how did they get along? It was
because they were different and because they compliment each other
so well that it worked. And yes, they fought. They

(58:09):
they had differences of opinions. There were times when one
was shut trying to shove one out, one was trying
to shove the other one out. But every time they
were they were uh, they were about to end the relationship.
And that happened several times during the course of their
their business life together. Uh magic started happening. The money
started flowing, and they said, you know what, let's let's

(58:30):
not screw with this. We're making plenty of money. You know.
There was there was a this story where where Calvin
really wants, you know, really offended Stone and you know, said,
you know, if it wasn't for me, you'd be selling
still selling Nail Pauls for Revlin, right, and don't tell
that to tell that story. And it took place years later,
but he really offended him, and Stone had a choice
either blow up and screaming him or or just turn

(58:52):
around and and and walk out the door. He turned
around and walked to the door and he and I
asked him, you know, how'd you do? He said, you
know what I learned long enough to shut up and
take the money, you know, and U And that was
Stone and Calgrin. And you know, we're talking a ton
in this interview about Stone and Kelgarn. They're really in
the in this story of record Plant that we tell,

(59:16):
which is really the origin story of record Plant. Record
Plant went on, it's still going on. There's a studio,
the studio in Sacelito, we'll talk about it is still functioning.
L a studio at a new location closed last year.
And there is one room on forty fourth Street still
operating on the tenth floor of three twenty one West
forty fourth Streets owned by Sony Music. So still to

(59:37):
some extent exists. But you know, the Stone Kelgren relationship
brought a third character in because remember, as we said,
Stone and Kelgron got on a plane and sold the
studio and got the hell out oft of Dodge, moved that, moved,
moved to the West coast and sold sold out to Warner.
They needed somebody to be Calgren in New York, right,

(59:59):
They need need somebody to give to warn or to
run the place. And they and Hitley knew a guy
from from A and R, A brilliant engineer, a great
maintenance guy, a real character in his own right named
roy Sakala. Right now, Royce Socali was the third leg

(01:00:20):
on the stool of record plant because he ultimately not
only was hired by Stone and Kelgman to run New
York when they left, but ultimately he ended up owning
it and running it. He was He's famous not only
for mentoring great engineers like Jack Douglas and Jimmy Iveen,
but he was most famous he was John Lennon's engineer

(01:00:42):
for almost his entire post Beatles catalog, so you know,
and he was, you know, he's a whole another part
of the story. And while Kelgrin and and Stone were
doing their doing damage to the LA market and eating
up that market. So Calla was running running New York himself.

(01:01:04):
And so Cala was an interesting story because not only
was he engineer, but he was married to a woman
named Laurie Burton. Now I don't know if people know,
but great songwriter, you know, uh you know. The famous
song was that I Ain't Gonna eat at my heart anymore? Right,
that was her. She wrote some great songs. She was
She was the brains behind getting getting Roy started in

(01:01:25):
the business. She got him his first job at A
and R with Phil Ramone, and it was Ramone and
he and and Sicala got into a fight. He got fired.
And when he got fired from A and R uh
Stone and Calgrin hired him up and said, all right,
you know what, we got our calgarn from New York, Cicala,
You're you're running New York while we're while we're running

(01:01:46):
l A and that It became the relationship between Stone
and Calgrin was always rocky, but they knew how to
work together. So Caala Sokala became New York became so
Callo studio. It was for many years was his studio.

Speaker 1 (01:02:02):
Okay, you talk good about about Soicla in the book
who ends up in Brazil?

Speaker 2 (01:02:08):
How does that happen? Well, the story of Royce Sokala
is his own book. And there are many people in
New York who say, you know what you should have
just you know, when we wrote this book, it was
like cold, we write the story about all record plans
or do we just focus on one? And we took
the task of trying to put it all into one story,

(01:02:31):
which hopefully worked out. But Sakala's story was an interesting
one because not only was he a brilliant engineer, but
he was not exactly the greatest businessman, all right, and
he didn't have his stone, right, you know, Kelgrin had
his stone, that relationship that frickin' frack business and commerce

(01:02:51):
relations The sex of the Record Plan is an ultimate
example of commerce, art coming art and commerce coming together
for success. It didn't have that that partner. He tried
to find that partner many times, right, but he didn't
have that partner. And you know, unfortunately, you know, the
studio started to get run down over the years. You know,

(01:03:13):
there was a big period when when John when Lennon retired,
you know, yes, there was Aerosmith came in and yeah,
Kiss came in, and Yes Springsteen came in, and then
Patty Smith came in. There was always an artist, but
the place was always having trouble making money and for
whatever reason and something, it was because that was not
Roy's skill set. And when the studio years later, when

(01:03:35):
the studio started declining, the New York studio started declining,
specifically because the New York was a different operation. And
I'll talk about that a minute. Remember they became two
separate businesses. People thought it was New York record Plant
East the Record Plant West. John Lennon used to even
call record Plan La Record Plan West. They were two
separate corporations. They were run separately. So Kala owned New York,

(01:03:58):
you know. And when it started getting run down, Laurie
Burton told us that, you know what, the worst business got.
The more Roy started checking out and he started getting
he started getting interested in Brazilian music, started working with
Brazilian artists, and started traveling to Brazil and started and

(01:04:19):
found found new love down there. Had had a child
down there and ultimately built a studio down there. And
when he as he started checking out if record Plant
New York and spending more Brazil the studio to climb
into the eighties, you know, the studio declined even further.

Speaker 1 (01:04:37):
Okay, let's go specifically to Kelgrin. You talked about speaking
with his widow. What it says in the book is
cal Grin is from the Midwest. He steps off from
the altar with a pregnant kid, a pregnant wife. Then
as a kid you talk about he comes to New York,
he meets this woman. They ultimately moved to la She's

(01:04:58):
living one place, but he's got a girlfriends and we
you know, what kind of character does this other than
rock stars? And how did the widow feel about all this?

Speaker 2 (01:05:12):
Marta Kelgrin has been very kind to us in the book,
and she and and some of the stories I'm sure
were difficult, but she, you know, you know, she and
her daughter were supportive of the project and had a
lot of changes and had a lot of stories to
share with us as well. But I didn't dig into
the details of how she felt. But you know, but

(01:05:34):
obviously there were you know, as things evolved, her relationship
with with Gary became even more difficult. She h, you know,
there was she lived in one house with the kids,
he moved out. You know, Gary was living in a rock
star lifestyle. He was, remember he was the rock stars
rock star at that time. You know, the rock stars

(01:05:55):
wanted wanted Kelgren. You know, they were chasing Kelgrin in
those days. So I've never really pushed on that point
and how she felt. I know that some things we
wrote were difficult for her. We saw her recently at
a book signing in la and she was very kind
and generous to us. But I'm sure some of the
you know, it was a tough period in her life.

(01:06:17):
You know, it was certainly and certainly to Gary the
end that was this particularly tough time for her. It
was tough time for a lot of people.

Speaker 3 (01:06:24):
We should mention that there was a very unfortunate occurrence
that kind of altered his Kelgrin's life and probably the
relationship with Marta. He fell through a glass shower door
before they had tempered class or safety class. He almost

(01:06:46):
had his arm amputated. They had to wire him together.
This was in the in the mid seventies. Technology was
the best they had, but it was it was a
terribly painful thing. He had to go for years with
this device that elevated his arm like up like this

(01:07:07):
and that was probably the beginning of some painkillers that
were absolutely necessary. I mean, he was almost died and
that may have had that probably. Marta told us that
he was never the same after that occurrence, So that was,
you know, part of the transition or the change in

(01:07:31):
his life. Sad but true, and eventually probably had a
fat was a factor in his desk drowning in his
luxurious swimming pool.

Speaker 1 (01:07:46):
A couple of questions her stories like this, I hear
my father's voice in my head. Yeah, he fell through
the shower door. Was he fucked up or was he like,
you know, a regular guy and he fell through the
tower door.

Speaker 3 (01:08:02):
Could have been a combination of both. It doesn't sound
like it was an unusual time. You know, Calgrin could
probably handle more drugs than anybody you could imagine.

Speaker 2 (01:08:17):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:08:17):
Gloria said that once they were driving in a limo
and he gave her a puff on a pipe and
she got terribly sick and said she'd never get any
smoke anything from Kelgrin. Again, some people could handle it,
some people couldn't, you know. I don't think we need

(01:08:40):
to dwell on it. But there were many sad factors
in his decline and.

Speaker 2 (01:08:47):
I can't answer that, quo, I don't we can answer
the question. We don't know that right, We don't know
the answer to that question. But we do know that
that the accident did impact not only his life, his
use of uh of let's say pharmaceuticals uh and his
experimentation with him, but it also affected his work, you know,

(01:09:09):
his ability to work in the console. And that was
you know, we have I don't know if we've talked
about the Donna hues and we can talk about Tom
and Rachel Donnie who play a role in this story
as well. Uh. They you know, Rachel Donnay, who could
describe the story of watching Gary after his accident with
his weird contraptions on working at console. He never carried

(01:09:30):
never despite this accident and despite his you know this
what it transpired, Uh, he never lost his ability to
function in the studio. He never locked his ears, has
never lost his ability to create new environments, create new sounds,
and he certainly never lost his ability to to mix.

(01:09:51):
And it was it's an amazing thing that that his
you know, you could say he had great capacity, but
he put you know, listen, you can't do what he
does he did without being a very special creative individual,
and he certainly was okay.

Speaker 1 (01:10:13):
All these records had credits. We read them, studied them,
you look at you know, at first it was just
producer and engineer. Then at other times, and to this day,
there's a third party who mixes the record gets a credit.
I don't remember seeing his name in most of these credits.
Is it that I missed them, or he was working uncredited,

(01:10:36):
or he wasn't working as much as we think he was.

Speaker 2 (01:10:42):
He was working a lot, but he was working. Remember,
they had an interesting business model. Stone tell us the
story that he came up with his idea when he
was in the dentist's office. How the dentist was hopping
from room to room, right, and he had you know,
they had the dental hygienus and the systems working in

(01:11:04):
one room, and he had all these assistants. Stone said,
you know what, everybody wants to work with Kelgrin, right,
but I can't. You know, I can't have a multi
room facility. I can't I can't clone Calgrin, right. So
he had this idea that you know what, you'd go
into a studio, the Kelgrin would start the session with
an assistant and then he would just walk out and

(01:11:26):
he'd leave that assistant to work with the artists. For
the assistant, you know, might have been a very accomplished engineer.
It might have been just a real runner or an
assistant engineer or a tapeonk but Kelgrin knew that, you
know what, He could bounce around from studio studio and
sometimes different disappear entirely. You know, Royce of Kala was

(01:11:47):
trained on that model as well. But kelgrind You know,
Kelgrin has credits, you know, certainly, you know the Hendrix
credits that we should talk about in a moment if
you'd like. But you know, there are lots of Kelvin credits.
But but Record Plant couldn't have built the music factory
that it became just on the back of Gary Calgrin.

(01:12:10):
Calgrin trained these guys. He taught them a work ethic,
but he also taught he also threw him into the
deep end with some of the biggest artists of their time,
and he trained roy Zakala on the same the same gig.
You know. That's that's the way they operate, you know,
and it's something and years later you know that's what

(01:12:30):
you know. Years later, Jimmy Iveen learned that gig bouncing
between sessions with Patty Smith and Bruce Springsteen at the
same time. That's how you did it. He had really
good assistance, could back you up.

Speaker 3 (01:12:40):
And you don't see Chris Chris Stone mentioned on any
album credits either, but we both well we know that
many of the greatest albums of all time would not
have been finished without Chris Stone behind the scenes making
sure that the studio operates correctly. Also, Stone knew how

(01:13:04):
to protect the artists from any problems with the law.
He had in San Francisco. He had the top Phil Ryan,
who I interviewed the two of them together. These two
guys were real characters, but Phil Ryan was the rock
and roll lawyer. There were many artists that careers would

(01:13:27):
have gone directly into the toilet if Phil didn't come
in and kind of save the day and get them
out of town. While you know, people were trying to
attack some of the artists and and and stars of
the day in the sixties, So there was a big
organization that was happening behind the scenes while the artists

(01:13:51):
were working. Where Kelgrin was working, his magic, and Stone
was making sure that everybody's safe.

Speaker 2 (01:14:01):
And and Kelpan's role also uh turned to sales, or
remember he and sales in the record business, and the
rock and roll business was different than going out and
knocking on doors. You go to the go to the Rainbow,
pulled greed up and you know, into the parking lot
and spend an evening up in the Rainbow hanging out
and drinking and partying until two a m. And then

(01:14:21):
then when the Rainbow closed, he'd bring people back for
an after party all night long at at at at
Record Plan on Third Street. So it was his role
was to bring not only spread the word about the
magic that was going down down at the Record Plan,
but to bring in the business. You know, when Jimmy

(01:14:42):
left for Electric Electric Ladies Studios, Stone and Kelgrin you
know had a void. They always needed a major artist
to book a lot of time, right and thank goodness,
Uh Stevie Wonder Uh left New York uh and moved

(01:15:03):
out to la and needed a studio to work in,
and and Stone went a Stone and Calgrin built studio
B famous and probably the most famous Record Plant room
because it did Stevie's entire classic period there. But they
you know, Stone had had and Calgrin had a thing going.
They said, you know, the joke was, hey, Calgrin, go

(01:15:24):
out on the street and find me another Hendrix. What
he meant was find me an artist who had money,
who could block book a studio for a year, who
had no limits and how much money they want to spend,
and just wanted to roll lots of tape because that
tape was made them a lot of money. So you know,
Kelgrin was out always finding another Hendrix. And not only

(01:15:46):
did they find Stevie Wonder, but you know another art
you know, Sly Stone became that other another Hendrix uh
for the studio when they built Scelito up north in
you know, near San Francisco. So Calgrin, you know, Kelgrin's
name is on quite a number of albums. But you know,
his legacy is maybe not so much his own credits

(01:16:09):
as the people he schooled and the records that his
that were made, but based on his recording philosophy and
these environments, creative environments that he created, that was his
real that was his real trademark.

Speaker 1 (01:16:24):
Okay, tell us about the establishment of the record plant
in Saucelito where sly Stone is the whale Fleewood Mac
cuts rumors and they build this FORCCTA studio for sly.

Speaker 3 (01:16:43):
Right, Hey, whatever they whatever the artist wants, Okay, you're
gonna get it. You want to pit, we'll do We'll
do it. You want us to uh uh jackhammer at
the bottom of the basement so that we can make it,
make it. Okay, it's too bad the bay is flooding

(01:17:04):
the bottom of the studio. That's okay, we can fix that.
So that was the that was the scene in sALS Alito.
And and Calgrin wanted boats too. That's where he had
those cigarette boats, that those speedboats, so you know they
could They had helicopters delivering people to the studio and
once you got there, you want to go out on

(01:17:26):
the boat. Yeah, you know, George Martin worked with America there.
Georgia loved boats too. So whatever the artist wanted during
Billable time, they got.

Speaker 2 (01:17:41):
The studio you're talking about, David Employs was called the pit,
all right. And let me just back up a little
bit for a second, because remember Jimmy left New York
to build electrically his own studio, right, but before he
before they built uh, he built a studio. Calgrin knew
that Jimmy on his own room. So and they were

(01:18:02):
they wanted to hold onto his business. They want in
New York, so they built a studio up on the
tenth floor. There was just an ordinary room in an
ordinary office building. Jimmy was like an ordinary businessman. We'd
get into the elevator in New York, go up to
the tenth floor and work. Right. So they got this idea,
we could start building studios for the artist all right

(01:18:23):
and let him book it, let him pay for it,
let him own it, but we would operate it for
we would. They wouldn't have to own their own studio.
It's a pain in the ass own a studio. Gott
to hire people, gotta pay pay more, you gotta. You know,
it's running a business. Watch an artists run a business
when we can build it for them. Like I said,
they built Studio B in La on Third Street for
Stevie Wonder. It was a success. And and then they

(01:18:46):
had their next whale as you call them, and they
had they were building this building up north in Sauce Alito.
Now Sauce Alito was their first attempt at a resort studio.
If La got crazy and La got insane, you can
get out of town and go up to this laid
back area in Sacelito, right by the by the by
the house boats by the bay. And Sly they had

(01:19:10):
they had Sly as a customer. And you know, they
they realized remember Sly had had a house for a
time in the in bel Air, you know, with a
studio in his house, right, you know, so he was
not against or you know, new to the idea of
having his own studio. But Sly, being Sly, had a

(01:19:30):
unique concept. All right, what if we could build a
studio that was a hole in the ground instead of
being a room on the same level. We'll dig a
giant ditch in the in the place and at the
bottom of the of the of this giant hole, we'll
put this put the recording console, We'll put the the
tape machines and around, moving around above the artists, the

(01:19:55):
the the musicians would sit on ledges and play the
guitars and hang out in and perform. So like David,
you know, said before, they jackhammered the floor in the
in the studio and Uh and Saucelito the water from
the base started pouring in. They pumped it out and
they built the pit. Now the pit was based on

(01:20:16):
on Sly's idea for the for some for a studio
where the artists could be on the on the below
the performers. Now we asked Tom Fly who was Who
was sly Stones engineer for Fresh and one of the
more brilliant engineers at Record Plant. And Tom Fly is
another one of those unsung heroes of the Record Plant

(01:20:38):
that we could talk about. But I said to Fly,
what was Sly's idea behind it? He said, let me
tell you how I where he came that came from?
He said, one day, one day Sly told him that
he wanted, uh, he wanted rhinestones on the brim of
a hat. Right. He had this concept that you know,
for beautiful rhinestones the deck or hat. But unlike everybody

(01:21:02):
else who were to put the rhinestones on the top
of the hat, Sly had a unique idea. He wanted
the rhinestones underneath the brim. He wanted to so that
the hat was playing but underneath looking so he could
look up. And I said to five, what was his concept?
He said, if I'm gonna put rhinestones on a hat.
I'm the one who wants to see the rhinestone, right,

(01:21:24):
not everybody else. So I had the concept of looking
up right, and that was Fly's well, that's what Fly
said to us about. That was the genesis idea of
that studio. Now, by the way, that studio sucked, right.
That room was funny funk. It was a it was
a it was a pit. It was a pit, literally
a right, and it's you know, it was a money pit.

(01:21:46):
Stone called it, you know, a white elephant. It was.
It just said it was acoustically not a sound idea. Yeah,
you know. Bill Wyman worked there, Van Morrison worked there,
Al Cooper worked there. You know, Paris worked there. People
were then. They couldn't get a hit out of the pit, right,
sly couldn't even get a hit out of the pit.

(01:22:06):
There was only one There's only one artist who could
get a hit out of the pit, and that was
believe it or not, Stevie Nicks. Right, So Stevie Nicks
and the Fleetwood mac are working as a sauce leader during
the famous rumor session. Then there's a whole book written
on rumors up up at Sauce Alito by Ken kela
uh And and there's a Broadway play that knocked off

(01:22:28):
that story called Stereophonic, Right, but you know so but
so they're looking for you know, Stevie has an idea
for a song. She's breaking up with Lindsey Bucket Min's
it's everybody's heard about the legends of the drugs and
the breakups and the craziness of rumor sessions of record
plant Sauce Alito, and she's, you know, she's getting away

(01:22:48):
from the craziness of the band. So she wanders around
the studio and she comes across the pit, right, and
she Now the pit was not only the studio, but
Calgrin built a sly of bed off the side of
the pit. Now that bedroom had curtains hanging down with
the big lips on it that looked like the rolling stone,
you know, tongue and lips. You go in, and there

(01:23:10):
was a big bed with a big you know, velvet bedspread,
and there was a patch base so he could hang
out and play and patch into the studio from there.
And there was even an escape hatch so he could
escape if they got it in problems which came in
handy later on, So Stevie Nicks walks into a Sly's bedroom,
gets on the bed, you know, crosses her legs, has

(01:23:32):
a little keyboard, has a little tape machine, and within
ten minutes, right, the biggest hit that came out of
the pit. She wrote Dreams on the on that bed,
on slies bedspread in the pit. One of the greatest
songs of all time and certainly Fleetwood Max's biggest hit.

Speaker 1 (01:23:47):
Okay, ultimately was sold. It was called the Plant. It's
still operating. Does the pit still exist now?

Speaker 2 (01:23:54):
The pit's long ago was filled and it's not in
the new studio, it's gone.

Speaker 1 (01:24:00):
Okay, let's go back to la. You tell a couple
of Phil Spector stories, can you, you know, give my
audience a taste.

Speaker 3 (01:24:12):
Well, the word was if Phil walks in with a
big Manila envelope and it's heavy, he's carrying a gun.
And he was known for this. Sometimes he would come
in with like, you know, a like a Western star,
with matching silver pistols, with ivory things. You know, that

(01:24:33):
weren't the only guns that most of the time they
checked their guns at the desk after you got after
buzz me in Gably and please leave your guns at
the desk before you go into session. We interviewed many,
many people about the famous gun shot by Phil Spector

(01:24:57):
at Record Plant, at least ten stories, and they none
of them coincide with each other. It's like the Raschamon
movie from Kurosawa. Everybody had a different story. The culmination
is that when they finally tore the studio down in
eighty five, Marty interviewed one of the engineers who was

(01:25:22):
responsible for dismantling the studio, Marty, why don't you tell
them where the bullets ended up? Because there were bullets.

Speaker 2 (01:25:31):
There were people who said that, you know. Basically the
story is Phil Spector almost killed John Lennon seven years
before he'd ultimately was shot to death, all right, and
that and he almost killed them the night one night
during the lost weekend when he with Phil and he
would work on a rock and roll album in La
at Record Plane. As David said, it was like a

(01:25:52):
Raschamon story, a million different stories. Even some people said
it never happened. May Pang said that she saw you know,
John saying he was holding his ears. Other people said
that Phil Spector was in the toilet. Others said they
were in the chacuzzie together. But years later, uh and
we told all the stories. We figured, you know what,

(01:26:13):
We're not gonna tell one story. We let everybody's story.
So and we told all these different stories. It's no
but one thing was clear. A gunshot went out. John
and Phil were together in one of the rooms, and
uh and and but nobody could find the bullets. The
bullet was gone. There was no bullets. But years later,
the students Stone that they were tearing down the studio

(01:26:35):
they were moving, and Stone had this beautiful wood paneling
in his office and they and the carpenters were tearing
down the tearing the wood because they were they wanted
to save that wood and reuse it. And ultimately one
of the carpenters took it home and put it in
his garage. And years later, when he was building another studio,
he said, I've got some great wood that that we

(01:26:55):
can use for the studio. So he's took he took
out a plane and started planing the wood, and you know,
and doing the work on the wood, and all of
a sudden, he hits something, and he hits and he
hits another thing, and he digs into the wood, and
there are these slugs, bullet slugs that were that were
preserved all those years later in this wood from stones
from Stone's office. So, you know, the important thing about

(01:27:19):
John Lennon and I think it's you know and Phil
Spector is the dydemic of Phil Spector and John are
very much part of the you know, the the legacy
of record Plan. John and Phil worked together on Imagine
overdubs July fourth weekend in nineteen seventy one at Record
Plant with Roy Sakala, his engineer, Shelleyakis, and Jack Douglas. Yeah,

(01:27:45):
he Phil was there worked with George Harrison on on
the Record Plant's first remote concert for Begladesh uh And
and Phil went out to La with John when he moved.
Began the last weekend and they started working at A
and M. Now it's interesting if you look on Facebook,

(01:28:06):
it's funny this week there's there's this famous console at
A and M that was just just being preserved. Is
go on the A and M alumni site on Facebook
and you'll see this console was just was being put
in storage, this famous Hako console. And John and John
and Roy and Phil Spector who are working on the

(01:28:28):
rock and roll Alem at A and M and suddenly,
you know, uh, they get thrown out. There was years
later there was a letter from John uh that said
what happened? Explain what happened? That basically, Keith Moon peed
on the console and then pissed off the management at AM.

(01:28:51):
They threw him out. Right, who's gonna take you know,
an artist who peed on one of these most expensive
consoles and call and and by the way, gunshots also went.
We're the guns were flying at A and AM also
those days. So who was going to take these maniacs? Right?
Only the record plant would take them. So they moved
everybody over the record plant and uh and while John
was there, Phil and he worked on the worked on

(01:29:14):
on the rock and Roll album until Phil flip flipped
out and stole the tapes and disappeared, and John stayed
there working with Roy and Jimmy. I been with Harry
Nielsen on Pussycats. But uh, the Phil Spector story of
the gunshots is legendary, and it definitely happened because we've
you know, we know the guy who found the bullets.

Speaker 1 (01:29:45):
Okay, another story that's well detailed is Stevie Wonder you
go into Tonto the original megasynthesizer, Robert Marklof and Malcolm Cecil.
I've heard Marklos's version. You would do a better take
in the book of how Stevie actually meets them. I
want to hear what your understanding of why the ultimate

(01:30:09):
rupture between those two entities after a number of albums.

Speaker 2 (01:30:13):
You want to take debby, you want me to go.

Speaker 3 (01:30:16):
Look, I've I'm friends with Bob. Marty interviewed Malcolm before
he passed away. It's an it's an uncomfortable conversation. Yeah,
you take it and I'll back listen. It's rock and roll.
So it all comes down to money, right, Well that's told.

(01:30:36):
But but Mark and Bob's a friend, and we love Bob.
We just saw him in a book signing.

Speaker 2 (01:30:41):
And you know, Bob's you know, one of the great
engineers and produce of all time, and and and he's
he's a friend. But he and he and Malcolm were
an interesting, uh partnership, you know, the agreed and deduct
Well they were their own, they were their own relationship, right,
So let me let me take you take you through it. Right,
they're in New York, Jim, you know, they're working at

(01:31:02):
Electric Lady studios, filling Electric Lady after Jimmy Jimmy died
and filling the time and uh and that's when uh,
Malcolm shows, uh shows Stevie the magic of the synthesizer.
Now the synthesizer is not just an ordinary synthesizer. He's
come up with this concept that he concludes together all

(01:31:24):
these odd pieces and make it work. So it's so
it's almost created an electronics orchestra. But it took took
basically three people to operate it. It took the musician
sitting in a keyboard, you know. And it took two
guys Malcolm and Margolf and Bob too uh to with
a patch bay plugging everything in. Uh. They at while

(01:31:46):
they were an Electric Lady, they were they they worked
on on this and John Stork, who designed Electric Lady
for Jimmy, built this magnificent this magnificent cabinetry for the synthesize.
It only had one major problem. The major problem was
no studio could house the damn thing. It was too big.

(01:32:07):
They when Stevie wanted to move out to lay they
moved in with Crystal for a time. But you know,
nobody wanted to book a studio with you know, with
this monstrous synthesizer, the Stevie that made all those early
sounds of the classic period, but you couldn't house it.
So they realized they had a book a studio around

(01:32:31):
the clock. Magic is Chris Stone's ears. Remember, you know,
I love a block book and I want to I
want my new I want another Jimmy. Well, you know,
Malcolm and Bob and Stevie became the next artist. So
they they moved over to record Plant, and and and
Stone built, you know, Stone let them build in their

(01:32:54):
own studio, studio be a very mundane, ordinary record recording
studio that just so happened to do inter visions, talking books,
fulfilling this much of songs in the key of life, right,
some of the most magical records of all time during
that period those four years they were working there. You know,

(01:33:15):
there were there were almost three hundred songs in the
in the archive there all right, So the magical time
for them, and it was a force. It was really
four partners. It was Stevie the artist, It was Malcolm
who built Tonto, and Bob Whew who taught him how
to manipulate it and make these great sounds, right, and

(01:33:36):
studio b was the room. It had the magic.

Speaker 3 (01:33:39):
It was it was it was a quad room. We
should mention that quad was the latest thing. And this
is the first time that Steve could be in the
middle of all the music and with the help of
Margolev and Cecil, the three of them operating it. He
could think of things and those guys as a team

(01:34:02):
could create the sound that was in his mind.

Speaker 2 (01:34:07):
But they so they were making hits. But remember Bob
and Malcolm went out the greatest business that they do
have a Stone. You know, they didn't exactly have the
best deal. They had no points. You know, they had
a good gig. They were making money. But then you
know what uh they were, you know, things were coming apart.
Now Malcolm and I've unfortunately before he passed away, I

(01:34:29):
spent a lot of time on the interviewing Malcolm. Malcolm
was a genius. He was a bass player from England.
Worked with Jeff Beck work with the Rolling Stones, did
you know, did some amazing work, you know, both both
working an orchestra as well as rock and roll, and
built and was was an inventor and built Tonto. But
it could be a little difficult and uh he started pushing,

(01:34:53):
you know, pushing Stevie a little bit hard. Remember Stevie,
Stevie was very rich at the time, had made some
really good deals with the with the motown and UH
and he you know, at one point, you know, he
started pushing Stevie to make, you know, to sing in
a way that he wasn't comfortable, to make him sound angry.

(01:35:16):
He was just pushing him, trying to make him angry.
So he said, I'm not getting the sounds out of
He started he started pulling the plug on him every
single time, and he and more he pulled the pulled
the plug on and the more Stevie get pissed off,
and the more Malcolm got got the sound and got
the vocal out of Stevie that he wanted, but it
left it left damage between the relationship and UH, and

(01:35:38):
you know, they started fighting, and it was really they
started They said, you know what, our deal sucks. We
don't have enough deal here. We need we need we
need to make sure we're cut in on these three
hundred songs. We got to make sure we're making some
real money. So they hired a lawyer and they got
they went they went to and they went to the
match with Stevie. Uh, they spent about fifty grand I

(01:35:59):
think in those days, and with lawyers, which is a
big money in those days. And and you know what,
Malcolm goes to Bob and says, this only way we're
going to get the deal is if we take the tapes. Remember,
the tapes in those d's were everything, right, They weren't
digital files, they weren't all over the internet. If you
had the tapes, you had the masters, you had everything.

(01:36:20):
You know. Phil Spector stole the rope rock and roll
tapes from John Lennon and held them out, held them
out so he could get Capital Records to pay him off.
Right for him, he wanted to protect those tapes. Frank
Zappa used to travel with his tapes. Sly Stone had
a Toyota jeep where he kept his entire archive with

(01:36:41):
armed guards. Right, so you held onto the tapes. Well,
those days, Malcolm and Bob had the keys to the archive.
So Malcolm was Malcolm said, all right, the only way
we're going to get our deals is is holding onto
those tapes. Right. Well, before they were able to do that,
guess what, Stevie's guys cleared out the tapes and Malcolm

(01:37:04):
went crazy. He blamed Stone, and Stone denied it, but
who knows what really happened, But he denied that. He
gave it, gave Motown or Stevie's management the keys to
the tape, but those tapes were gone. He lost the
lost the leverage, right. So Malcolm said, all right, we're
done with Stevie Wonder And Bob said, are you sure
we want to be done with Stevie Wonder. We're on
a ride here, man. He said, we're done with him.

(01:37:25):
We're done with him now. He Malcolm and Bob had
a had a deal. You know, one of them was out.
They were both out, and they those two they had
a falling out because because Bob didn't want to leave,
and uh, and it ended. You know, it's there's no
hard feelings anymore between Bob. Bob's worked everything out and

(01:37:47):
I think everything was been taken care with Stevie long term.
But at that time it was a very contentious relationship
and it all came crumbling down. And the last album
they did together was fulfilling this. They had a bunch
of songs on Songs in the Kia Life, but Songs
in the Kia Life was not was not a cecil
Mark Lift Tonto Stevie Wonder production.

Speaker 3 (01:38:09):
And that was the emergence of a new engineer, Gary
Olazabal whose name is now Gary A. Dante. I was
just in touch with him for a couple of days ago,
and they're still working together. So the saga goes on,
and uh, I think the vibe now between Steve and
Bob is just fine. Uh some thing's just received into

(01:38:34):
the past. Because without a doubt that that three man triumvirate,
that record plant in the room that was designed to
be a quad room, well it without a doubt it
made history. It's still with us now.

Speaker 2 (01:38:51):
You know, even even though Stevie Ultimate left record Plant,
you know after you know, although you know, songs in
the Kui Life was recorded, Uh much of it was
recorded up in La and in Soslito. It was recorded
crystal in other places as well. Obviously the important thing
to know is he never left the record plant because

(01:39:13):
he ended up buying or no leasing, he leasing the
record plant truck and parking at it and parking it
outside of his house. It was his house, you know,
at Wonderland, and and uh I think it was stud
his main studio for many years later.

Speaker 1 (01:39:29):
Now you talk about the truck in the book, how
Wally Hyder, who had his own studios with his own name,
ultimately teaches him how to do it and they split
up the country. But then the record plant guys kind
of finagel whatever. So tell us about that.

Speaker 2 (01:39:46):
The first record Plant remote was concert for Bangled Dish. Right,
how do you how do you how do you top that? Right? Uh?
And you know Kelgrin was working with George Harrison and
uh In l A and Harrison told me needed a truck.
He said, I'll get you. We'll do it. He didn't

(01:40:06):
have a truck. You couldn't build a truck, right, couldn't
build a truck. Hyder had a truck. He had an
old truck, and that became known as the White Truck
years for many many years. I think it rolled for
about forty five years, you know, even after it went
off independently. Right, But the deal was Calgown and Stone
were good businessmen, so they, you know, like the mafia,

(01:40:29):
you cut up the country, right, Like like concert promoters
you can have you can have Philadelphia, I'll take New York,
you can get Chicago. Well, Well, the deal was, you
know what I'll leaseh you this truck or sell you
this truck, but you can't do anything west of the
west of the Mississippi. And of course they said, you know,
we'll do we'll do it right. So there, you know,

(01:40:51):
the you know, the Record Plan truck stayed in New York.
White truck became the New York truck you know, did
and rolled tape and rubber for many, many years. As
I said, But sooner or later there was the demand
for live albums became so popular, especially after Frampton and
all the other live albums started happening, that demand just

(01:41:13):
took off. And you know what, it was a handshake deal.
There was no contract. There was no deal on this.
It's like, all right, you know what. Suddenly you know,
there were Record Plan trucks in Sos Alito. There's a
Record Plan trucks in LA and the white truck remained
in Maine Park outside on forty four seet when it
wasn't rolling all over the East coast.

Speaker 1 (01:41:33):
Okay, just as a side note, Wally Hyder, what was
his genius and why was he in lore eclipsed from
by the Record Plan.

Speaker 3 (01:41:47):
I remember there there was no refrigerator at Wally's studio. Actually, Wally,
I think I met him. He used to have a
studio here in La long time ago. He was one
of the legendary genius as of recording, well known in
San Francisco. David Schwartz, founder of Mixed magazine, got his

(01:42:09):
third working for Wally. Uh. He was a legend. I
don't know too much beyond that really well, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:42:17):
Remember he was like like many of these early day
recording studios. He was studio engineers and owners. He was
a hobbyist, right. He He had a he had a uh,
I guess a station wagon with a tape recorder, and
he used to go around the country tape recording jazz
bands and built a very large, uh and very important

(01:42:38):
collection of tapes of of jazz grades around the country,
and built the studio in Sarcelito that you know, obviously
was pivotal to the success of uh, you know, of
of the San Francisco bands, and then ultimately built built
in l A uh you know where obviously where a
lot of artists could could work. It was not as flashy,

(01:43:02):
it was not full of the creature comforts that record
plant was noted for. It had its following. And I
wouldn't say record Plant the clips that maybe you know
from it from a standpoint of money and success, I
can't measure that for you. But certainly it had its following,
you know, Cosby Stills in Nash loved, you know, loved.
They didn't like record Plant, they loved, you know, they
felt it was too flashy some people remember record Plant

(01:43:24):
was too flashy for some people. It was too crazy
party scene for people. You know, it was too public
for some people. Uh, you know, a place like Hyder
had its following it. Hyder was a great engineer and
he taught some amazing people, but like David said, he
wasn't full of serving the artists with the creature comforts
that the record Plant was known about. And the story
that the story that David's talking about the refrigerator is,

(01:43:48):
you know, Calais and the room, Ken Calay and the
rumors crew for Fleetwear Mac are working, you know and
getting everything they want up in up in sas Alito,
and they decide, you know what we need to change
the place. We got to go down to l A.
You know, it's good to finish the album. So they
go down to LA and Kelly's a former student assistant

(01:44:09):
and engineer it for for a Hider. So he said, chooses,
you know, he chooses working and finishing up the record
rumors at at at Wally Hider Studio in la And
at one point, you know what, the band says, you
know what, we'd like a refrigerator in the studio. So
kela Ay picks up the phone, calls the front desk

(01:44:30):
and says, uh, uh you know, uh, couldn't you get
refrigerator over here? He said? They said, what a refrigerator?
And he said, yeah, get a refrigerator here said they didn't
have refrigerator him, and they said, all right, you know
what you want tofrigerate to get it, but you know what,
you guys, come out here and carry it yourself.

Speaker 3 (01:44:48):
Right or that put or go to the record plant.

Speaker 2 (01:44:51):
Or go to the or go to the record plan
where they'll and guess what they said, Okay, we'll go
to the record plan because remember the record plan ends.
Whole business model was serving the art. You want that
you want to you want a refrigerator, we'll get your refrigerator.
You want, you know, whatever you want, we'll get you
because we want to keep your business.

Speaker 1 (01:45:13):
One point that you're making the book. They would get
whatever they want, but they'd charge the label, of course.

Speaker 3 (01:45:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:45:22):
It was by the way, nothing was nothing was free. Man.
They were selling. They were selling service. It's like a hotel.
You want, you know, go into the the mini bar
in any hotel, man, and and how much you're paying.
It's this was the hotel business, you know. They were selling.
They were selling rooms in time and services.

Speaker 3 (01:45:40):
Yeah. Bill Simsick is working, uh, you know with some
of the biggest acts imaginable, and a Stone asked them, hey,
you know, hey Bill, you know, why don't you do
this or something like this. Look, I'm working for the label.
He says, do you have a what kind of a

(01:46:01):
sound system do you have at home? So? I don't
have anything, really I wish I did. The next day,
a complete ultimate Hi Fi system is delivered to cimsics
house and guess what it just ended up as a charge,
a rental charge. So take care of the artists.

Speaker 1 (01:46:25):
Can you tell me a little bit about the three
rooms at the Record play in La where Shenanigans take place?

Speaker 3 (01:46:32):
Sure? Well. They were called the Rack Room, the Sissy Room,
and the boat Room. The boat room was like kind
of a if you wanted to get away, you could
climb aboard the ss Boat Room and you've had a bed,
you've had chairs, you've had probably your own sound system.

(01:46:53):
They even had a special secret room in there called
the Anne Frank Room. The Sissy Room was a big
plush bed with curtains and you know, it was just
very feminine and very comfortable and the ultimate in that direction.

(01:47:18):
And then the rack room, well it did have if
you wanted to get into that. It had mechanical gears
and ropes and pulleys and probably velvet covered handcuffs and
things like that. I don't think it was a serious,
you know, torture chamber, but it added that kind of

(01:47:40):
flavor of you know, the dark side of rock and roll.
But it became part of the theme idea of Record
Plant and the ultimate dream of Kelgrin and if Stone
could finance it was to build a series of rock
and roll hotels, ultimate five star hotels all over the

(01:48:02):
country that also had the best recording studios, so the
artists would always have a place where they could be
comfortable and they could record anything they wanted to.

Speaker 2 (01:48:14):
You know, at these hotel rooms. And the back record plant.
Not only were kinky and and artful and private. People
could do whatever they want. You want to crash, and
a session musician wants a crash as a bed. You
want to you know, bring your girlfriend, your wife, whatever.
In there. You can do whatever you want. You could
write songs in there. They rented for fifty dollars an hour.

(01:48:38):
They were rentable time, and people just camped out on them.
The original idea was to help the artist, help the
musicians have a place to crash between sessions. They obviously
became more when Stone and Kelgrin wrote a business plan
the very beginning. Frankie Revsen right, that was part of

(01:48:59):
the business model. They were going to build hotels. It
was Stone said it. From the earliest days. He and
the Stone were talking about that not only were they
going to rent studio time, but they were going to
rent hotel rooms along with it. You know, in nineteen
seventy five that Stone and Kelgrin we were, you know,

(01:49:19):
having business problems. They were not getting along, but and
they and they they ended up in People magazine. It
was a it was a big photo spread. It was
a big photo spread of the hotel rooms and at
record plan you see you can see these photos in
our book, and the People magazine in the in the

(01:49:40):
in the mid seventies was huge, right, everybody saw these
all right, every every musician and every house household in
American probably had that People magazine. And there was Calgrin
in the jacuzzi, and there was Marta Kelgrin on this bed,
and there were women in another bed, and and in
that In that mid seventies article in People magazine, again,
Calgrin had the idea of building hotel rooms, right that

(01:50:05):
they wanted to be in that business. And not surprisingly
and we can if you want to dig into the
Hotel California part of this story. You know what a
band called the Eagles had been working in in this
in the record plan during that period. And who knows
where the title Hotel California came from, but there's no

(01:50:26):
question about the fact that hotels for rock and rollers
was very much part of the business scheme and the
business plan.

Speaker 1 (01:50:42):
Okay, So tell me a story from one of these
artists that didn't make the book.

Speaker 3 (01:50:51):
Hmmm, I don't. I think we got everybody in there
that we could reach. No, I think I think we covered.

Speaker 1 (01:51:03):
Okay, let me put it in a different way it
is sex drugs in rock and.

Speaker 2 (01:51:07):
Roll and audio.

Speaker 1 (01:51:09):
Were there stories, some stories that were great to hear,
but beyond the piss that we just can't.

Speaker 3 (01:51:14):
Print that, No, I don't think so. I don't think
there was any severe trait people were. You know, it's
still happening today. We've got macho men and and uh,
stuff like that going on. It's probably worse now than
it was then. Uh No, I think we I think

(01:51:35):
we told enough to to cover that that angle. Of course,
we had to tell that part of the story because
that environment really was a part of the music that
came out at that time. You know, it was like
it was. It was a time where it was it
was you know, love INDs, There was birth control pills,

(01:52:02):
there was pot, There was you know, before cocaine was
found to be you know, more than just a recreational drug.
But there was plenty of time where this the combination
of these elements was very productive, was very creative, and
it wasn't dangerous. As with all drugs and alcohol and

(01:52:26):
things like that, there are people that will lose sight
of where it's going and disappear. And but I don't know,
I think we we touched on it the way it was,
and we didn't overemphasize it. But it's part of the
music that we love today from the from the seventies,

(01:52:46):
you know, not being done again.

Speaker 2 (01:52:49):
I'm going to disappoint you with my answer to this question, though, Bob,
because you want you wanted some desolations. I'm gonna give
you somebody because I'm not gonna give you some solations,
But I'm going to give you something that I think
we we did put enough of a rapper around in
the book. Okay that yes there were tons of groupies,
and yes there was a lot of sex going around,
and Howard Caitlin tells the story of groupies being passed

(01:53:11):
around in the hotel room. So yeah, that's rock and
roll in the in the seventies. Uh. What we didn't
point out well enough, I think is the fact that
women played a really big role in the successive record
plant all right. Yes, Uh, Ankie Revson was the woman,

(01:53:31):
was the was the book, paid the bills and put
the money, put the money. She was the money bags
behind the studio. Glorie Burton put put Roy Sakala in business.
Marta Kelgrin, Gary's wife named the studio Gloria Gloria Stone
ran the place. A woman by the name of Lillian Duma.

(01:53:54):
Davis was one of the first rock and roll engineers.
Jimmy Hendrick had a woman engineer at Record Plant, New York. Right.
Another woman, Denny King, was an engineer. Women, like fran Hughes,
reinvented the way studio booking took place. Rose Man was

(01:54:15):
a studio manager at Record Plan who reinvented book studio
booking as well creative booking for Record Plan and ended
up running the place for thirty five years. So I
know that's not the story that you may have been
looking for, but I think it's important to point out
although I'm sure there were many women who may not
have been treated well, but to Stone and Kelgrin, women
were a very vital part of the business of making

(01:54:38):
sure the business ran successfully, making sure was funded successfully,
and they played a big role in the success in
the studio.

Speaker 1 (01:54:45):
Okay, Kelgrin drowns in a swimming pool. There's a fire
on Third Street. They moved the studio to Sycamore. How
does it end for Stone? Does he get it off
or he can't refuse or is he turned out? How
does it end and how does he cope with being
out of the business.

Speaker 3 (01:55:05):
Well, I coincidentally, Gloria Stone just called that was the
ringing phone. I'll call her back, she described. I photographed
the night that George Martin and his manager. I'll remember that.
It was a great guy. They finalized the deal for

(01:55:30):
Stone to cash out Record Plant to Chrysalis Records. And
in the photos Stone is a very happy man. I
think after after all these years he was he was
getting he was bushed, and Gloria described as I think
I can see the canary feathers outside of his mouth

(01:55:52):
in the pictures where he's smiling. And I'd met George before.
It was it was a good time and it was
It breathed totally new life into the studio. Roseman, who
started on Third Street, transitioned over became the president eventually
of Record Plan on Sycamore, and it celebrated for many

(01:56:16):
many years after that. You know, they had us talk
about bedrooms. They had a special fluffy bed installed in
one of the one of the studios for Guns n'
Roses so that they could continue the tradition of sleeping

(01:56:36):
and making music.

Speaker 2 (01:56:38):
So one of the thing they had is Stone was
a serial entrepreneur, right even after record playing. You know,
he kept on putting deals together. He built it, built
a deal with an audio dealer. He built the World
Studio Group. We got the greatest studios in the world
and started marketing them. He invested in a lot of business.
He was he was always putting deals together. The fact

(01:56:59):
this book, to a great extent, is one of his deals, right,
you know, his vision that put David and me together.
So Stone never stopped hustling and never stopped making deals,
even to the very end.

Speaker 3 (01:57:11):
I wrote a book with Stone called The Sound of Money.
Actually Stone wrote it, I edited it.

Speaker 1 (01:57:18):
Okay, so what was that book.

Speaker 3 (01:57:21):
Oh? It's basically a step by step how to run
a studio, how to make money, how to make it work,
how to be smart and not stupid, how to communicate.
We just you know, we did it like months by
month and it was published in Marty's magazine. We'd get together, Okay,
what are we going to tell the folks this month?

(01:57:42):
And he'd come up with an idea, and I'd give
him an idea and we'd knock it out and it
all got collected in a book and it's you know,
the studio situation is so different now, but all the
basic business principles, many of these things personally affected me.
When I met Stone, I had just moved to LA

(01:58:03):
and I got started getting involved in the studio and
at one point Stone said to me, because he's mister Bonds,
he called he called me Bonds, he coined that name.
I was, I was the Bonds. He said, Bonds, you're
a fucking hippie. Come on, get your shit together. You know,

(01:58:24):
you want to make some money, you want to have
a business. You got to do this thing or forget
about it. And so he taught me so much and
I'm so grateful for that. That's what you talk about
a labor of love. It's giving back to how much
he had an impact on my life personally. And uh,
you know he was. I asked him once if do

(01:58:46):
you want to be loved or feared? You know the
answer feared. But there are many people who worked at
Record Plant that he bailed them out when they had
health problems. He maybe bank rolled a down payment so
they could get by a house. I know a lady

(01:59:06):
now still lives in the house that was instigated by
Chris Stone. So you know that's kind of the legacy
that people don't know about Stone. I wouldn't say, you know,
he was a pushover. No way, you couldn't pull the
wool over Chris Stone's eyes. Because he could see through

(01:59:29):
situations like like Kelgrin could see through music, Stone could
see through business. That was the combination, that was the chemistry.
Neither one of them would have been successful without the other.

Speaker 1 (01:59:45):
Okay, you mentioned the modern days. So many big rooms
have closed. People might get basics in a big room.
A lot of people just do everything at home. So
what's the status today and is this an era just
in the rear view mirror or is it something you
can replicate if you have enough money to spend as

(02:00:07):
an artist. Where are we today?

Speaker 3 (02:00:11):
Well, some of the big rooms are still doing well
because they to get the sound of it, like an orchestra,
you need a big stage. Stone towards while he was
on Sycamore, he took over stage M at Paramount a
Lot and ran that for about ten years because he
knew how to make it work and he had the

(02:00:33):
best technicians, the best engineers, and those rooms have to
be around, probably for the film business mainly. I can't
predict how long it's going to last. But we still
have here in La a number of really well run,

(02:00:54):
well maintained big rooms. One studio is probably going to
be uh part of the of an educational operation. I
can't get into the details now, but you'll be hearing
about it for sure.

Speaker 2 (02:01:12):
So you know, Sasolito, which was Gary Keligrin's masterpiece, right, beautiful,
beautiful walls and woodwork and designs, still was closed for
many years. People tried to open and try to close it. It's,
you know, finally some well bank rolled entrepreneurs got it
back up and running, and it is running again, uh

(02:01:34):
you know and again. Uh you know. So it's it's
wonderful that it's up and running. Let's face it, you know,
the big the days of the big studio is over
by and large. There are some of that still exists fortunately,
but by and large they're all gone. Sick of the
studio on Sycamore. The Record Play closed last year, made
huge noise. That was a hugely successful studio even after

(02:01:56):
Chris Stone was gone. You're talking about you know, be
Kanye West, Guns n' Roses, you know, endless amount of
major artists recorded there. Closed last year. The record Business
as you write about all the time, Bob, is not
what it used to be. Digital change to everything, or
not only changed the way music musicians make their money

(02:02:17):
or don't make their money, the way labels make their money. Uh,
that way music is distributed. But certainly the way music
was was made, it was done. You know. The first
digital recording studio was Steven Sills and an engineer named
Michael Bronstein at Record Plan in in l a first
first digital session. And and Still's is doing a recording. Uh,

(02:02:40):
and they're doing a promotion for I think it was
three m was the digital tape machine at that point,
and and there and they're a they're running analog and
digital tape at the same time. Right in those days,
was it was digital tape. And Still's is listening. They're
doing a playback and they're listening to it, and everybody's
waiting for it. Stills looking at Stills in the through
the in the control room. You know, how is he

(02:03:02):
going to react to the new digital digital sound? It's amazing,
he said, And and you know what, he takes a
sharpie and writes on a piece of paper and holds
it up and he points it to the engineer to
the scientists or who had invented these new digital tape machines,
He says, scientists, you failed not because the digital and

(02:03:23):
those early sound of digital was not even as good
as analog. And there are people to this day, you know,
in the audio files as well as even some many
recording engineers who were working on vintage gear who feel
that digital doesn't quite live up to the sound quality
of great you know, a great two track, two inch
sixteen track tape machine. But there was one other, probably

(02:03:48):
more significant change that digital made in the recording business.
Are musicians don't play together like they used to, you know,
they they mail it in, they email it in. They
they remotely work. They were remote working. We're you know,
we're doing this remote when musicians do the same thing.
Bands don't play together like they used to be in
the studio because those studios don't exist anymore. The space

(02:04:11):
doesn't exist anymore. So that's changed the business forever and
to change the art form and that's something that even
you know doesn't exist the way it once was. And
that's probably the biggest impact of digital was the remote
production of music and the way bands now work.

Speaker 1 (02:04:30):
What do you think Bob, oh, this is a long
conversation that we can like another two hours, and.

Speaker 3 (02:04:36):
So does our book encapsulate what the way it used
to be?

Speaker 1 (02:04:42):
What people if I get into this discussion all the time,
people say, oh, it's the same as it ever was.
You're just too won't No, it is not the same.
Just like in the Renaissance. They've painted and sculpted ever since,
but there was only one Renaissance. You talk about everybody
being I remember one of the first couple of times

(02:05:03):
I was in the room. I remember once at the
record plan. You know, in the early days in the sixties,
you'd go to the studio, You book three hours and
you work three hours.

Speaker 2 (02:05:13):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (02:05:14):
Then the Stone started to write the songs in the studio,
as did the Beatles. But the Beatles broke up. People
have no idea. Forget if you're you know, you have
a lockout for months, that's the thing unto itself. But
you would have twelve hour block, how much time would
the people actually spend recording if you got eight hours

(02:05:36):
out of that block. I mean, you know, oh, we're
going to dinner, and you'd go to a dinner for couple.
And if you were somebody counting.

Speaker 2 (02:05:42):
The dollars ago.

Speaker 1 (02:05:43):
This is insane. We're just burning the money.

Speaker 3 (02:05:47):
But oh we we we got to get that snare
drum sound right.

Speaker 1 (02:05:52):
Well, you know, but there was money to burn, you
know there. You know, other than a handful of artists
you talk about playing together, they don't do that. They
can't afford to do it that way. The economics don't
work out. Record company won't give them that money. But
the reason the record company won't give them money is
they can't make their money back. So the other thing

(02:06:15):
that people forget is these were professionals. These were not hobbyists.
They may not have had a degree from an institution,
but they had paid their dues and they were very
intelligent in certain verticals. It's not the same anymore. The

(02:06:36):
other thing I readly it is not the same was
we have huge income inequality at this point in time.
We have winners and losers. And if you have a brain,
you talk to young people today. They want to start
a career. They're afraid they're going to end up with nothing.
Whereas during this era you could live on one hundred
dollars a week, couldn't live like a king, but you

(02:06:57):
weren't living on the street. Okay, if you made it
as a rock star, listen, there's so many There's not
only the studios. You know, the cell phone camera killed
all the antics on the road. I mean, there's a
lot of different things. And if you wanted to know
which way the wind blew, you know, you turned on
the radio put on a record. People haven't now this

(02:07:19):
is people have no idea. Taylor Swift arguably the biggest
artists in the world. I get into this all the time.
Most people cannot name one song off the new album,
never mind singing it. She has her fans and she's big.
I'm only put it with a satisfaction Hotel, California. Unless

(02:07:41):
you were deaf, you knew the song. These people were
royalty in a way. You know, you talk about life
in the Fastling in the book with the Eagles. They
were living a life completely untouchable by us, and it
was mysterious and they created these songs out of thin air.
You know, it's not the same today. On that note, gentlemen,

(02:08:10):
I think we've come to the end of the fielding
We've known. I can get a lot more questions, but
people can read the.

Speaker 3 (02:08:15):
Book started to cry, Oh no, Bob.

Speaker 1 (02:08:20):
Just to give a little sales pitch for the book.
And I never lie. People send me books all day long.
Drives my girlfriend nuts because they pile up. And I
got a pre publication version of your book, but I
was traveling and then they sent me the finished hardcover
and I say.

Speaker 2 (02:08:38):
Well, I have to crack it.

Speaker 1 (02:08:39):
I mean, people don't know you.

Speaker 2 (02:08:41):
You live in La.

Speaker 1 (02:08:43):
It's all the psiconography, all this frame you moved to La,
all this stuff from the Frank Zappa records. Oh there
it is Pico and Sepulvida. Oh Monty Legion Stadium. You
drove by the record plan. You know there was an
entrance way, but otherwise it was all with this, you know,
sort of psychedelic, said the recordend. It was happening in there,
but you couldn't get in there. This book not only

(02:09:07):
you know there are a lot of people who know
a lot about this because we all read the credits.
This adds fills in the hole some of these people
I know, like Ezra in etc. You learn stuff you
don't know. It's very readable if you have any interest
at all. The book is totally satisfying. I highly recommend it.

Speaker 3 (02:09:29):
Thank you, Bob.

Speaker 2 (02:09:31):
Thanks Bob.

Speaker 1 (02:09:32):
But that's why we're doing this. It's honest. I mean, people,
you know, you talk. I can tell the stories about
being the studio, about being in the record plan. It's
like when people go to a show, to the forum,
but even better, you talk about Calgrim being the rock
stars Fashia. You are inside the record plan, the person
on the record, they're just walking by. You know, all

(02:09:55):
this magic, it's encapsulated in this book. Anyway, gentlemen, thanks
for doing this. Until next time. This is Bob lefts
it

Speaker 2 (02:10:25):
Sh