David Macias

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast.
I guess today is David Mucius, president of thirty Tigers. David,
good to have you on the podcast. Well, I am
very happy to be here. I am. I'm a fan
of the podcast, as you know. I love hearing the
stories of so many of your guests, and I learned

(00:30):
a lot. So it's a real thrill to be uh
to be joining you. Okay, let's jump in. What exactly
is thirty Tigers. We are a label services company h
that that tries as uh much as possible to uh
to just be a label infrastructure, holistic labels infrastructure for
artists that allows them to take their music to market

(00:52):
without having to give up ownership of their masters, but
also without any sort of diminution in the quality of
the effort. I'm there the marketing of their their music. Okay,
so let's dig a little deeper. People find you, you
find them. How is the relationship established? Well, it happens

(01:13):
you know, any number of ways. UM, I'd say, I
think with one exception, UM, all the relationships that we've
entered into came through UH an attorney, a manager, UM,
you know, some sort of an advocate. I think it's
it's uh. I mean, I try to be open to
hearing uh, either me or Lee Tonay, who's our vice

(01:36):
president of van or we make you know where the
where the sort of the points of entry in terms
of these conversations. We try to be open and we
try to listen to you know, everybody. But it takes
a village to UH in a you know, a robust
team for artists to succeed at at a high level.
And so if somebody comes and they don't they don't

(01:56):
have any teammates, it can be a daunting thing for
us to to take on. Having said that, UM, well,
I guess you know we have Actually I think lately
we've done more things where you know, I've heard an
artist they didn't really have a team, and then we
were the first teammate and kind of put something, you know,
things together. But we won't go out to market without
a full team. And if I can't put a team

(02:17):
around an artist, then we don't do it. Do you
manage any artists or is it always outside management? I
co managed Patty Griffin with a wonderful UH partner in
crime named Carolyn Rosenfeld. Um I used to manage more artists,
but as the label services side of the business grew. Um,
I mean, management is a very full on experience, and

(02:39):
it just I just I don't think I have the
you know, the bandwidth to to manage anyone else and
do it right. And and Caroline and I but I
just I love Patty Griffin so much. I love her music.
I feel honored to be um, you know, I was
honored to be asked to to, uh, you know, help
go fight for her out in the world. And Caroline
and I, uh, you know, we really relish that opportunity

(03:02):
that we've been given. But yeah, I'm not I'm not
going to manage anyone else. Okay, So you talk about
an act coming with a team in the best of circumstances,
what are the team members you're looking for? Well? Management,
But honestly, to me, the most important component part of
the team is probably the agent. Uh you know. The

(03:24):
live experience is the most intimate way in which artists
connect with their fans, and if and if an artist
can't do that, or they can't do it at a
very high level, then it's really hard for me to
envision how how all that's gonna work. Um. I know
that there's certain types of music where the live thing
isn't uh isn't quite as important, but you know, we

(03:48):
don't we don't necessarily you know, work in those genres
quite as much. But for for our wheelhouse, UM, I
would say the agent is probably the top priority. Um. Well,
let's style stay with the agent for a second. Sure,
in this business, traditionally, you can't get an agent until
you've already proven that you can sell tickets. So is

(04:09):
it your experience that everybody comes to you already has
some kind of road business or sometimes they just hooked
up with an agent and they haven't really worked. I'd
say that's probably the case of the time. But you know,
there's a handful of agents, uh that I think are
like I think about Jonathan Levine with Wasserman. Um. You know,

(04:34):
you know, just found out about an artist named Kylie
Connell who I'm awe struck by and I encourage all
of all of your listeners to go check her out. Uh.
And I was so dumb struck by her talent. And
I mean, and she doesn't have you know, she's she's
here in Nashville, she doesn't have a touring base, she
doesn't really have a team. And I sent her that
sent Jonathan the music, and he just, uh as I did,

(04:56):
flipped out, and and he's he's brought her on and
we're we're sort of building out the team together. I mean, sometimes,
you know, great music just you just can't say no
to it. You just have to you feel compelled to
to just get behind it and start working. And so
it's not but you know that the time, I would
say that it's helpful if the artist does have a

(05:20):
little bit of a momentum or some some sort of
you know, uh, some sort of uh yeah, just some
sort of a live business already. But it's not it's
you know, it's not essential. So the lady you're talking about,
you heard this music, you flipped out? Did she have
any team members? Well, she now has a manager. Uh
before when you heard the music, did you have any

(05:41):
team member? She had nothing. How did you hear the music?
I heard? I am friendly. I have a whole you know,
group of people out there that I consider I trust
their judgment um in this particular time, in this particular instance,
there's a blogger named Kyle Carron who writes a blog
called Saving Country Music. And um he I consider him

(06:06):
a friend and I think he's got great, you know,
great ears. And he just sent me a text one
day and just said Kylie Connell and that was it.
And I went on Spotify and I listened and it
was just like, oh my god. And I just I
asked him what her um you know like, And she

(06:26):
had a publicist because obviously that was how he she
got his radar. And so I found the publicist and
and she that was the only person that she had
on her team. And so then I but I asked
to be put in touch with her, and then I
got in touch and we just started talking and and
and subsequently, uh, you know, other teammates have come on board.

(06:47):
But I feel like she's got a it's got a
very you know, good team. She's got a Adam from
Mcmanagement is going to is managing her now. And then
Mcmanagement is a great company, and Wasserman is a great agent.
You know, we do what we do well, and you know,
so it's like, okay, well here we go. Okay, you
hear the music, the music is great. Do you say yes,

(07:07):
I'm gonna do this or you say, let me see
what I can do it? Is your first call to
Jonathan the agent? And how do you get the manager
involved in this case? Um, well, actually the management conversation
was happening. Uh, Adam had had actually discovered I didn't
approach Adam about it. Adam had found her him or
had found Kylie on on his his own. And but

(07:32):
I think that, you know, but we sort of committed
and then they continue to converse and and uh and
then Adam subsequently, uh, you know, came on board. Um,
so you know, and also I'll say, I mean put
his way with Kylie. I just said like, yes, we'll
do this. But but again, we're you know, contingent on us,

(07:53):
you know, because if I can't put the team together,
if there can't be a robust team, then it's not
going to go very well for either of us. I'm
not doing any favors for her by you know, saying yes,
if I can't convince other people of immense quality to
come aboard, and um, and it's just not gonna work
very well for for us either. And so UM, I mean,
I run a business. I I feel like we have

(08:14):
very uh equitable terms, but it is a business. I'm
not an art patron, you know, Uh, necessarily so, uh,
you know, it's got to make sense for for all concerns.
But but I'm a very passionate music fan and uh
and her music just moved me to my core and
I felt compelled to to try to move having an
arts to two help put things together for you know,

(08:38):
because I think she's going to have an incredibly bright career.
Let's go back to the team members, the agent, what
other team members would you prefer an act come with.
I mean, if they have, if they have a relationship.
And this would only be for more established artists. I
also pay a lot of attention to the PR person. Uh.
You know, we're very much we think a lot in

(09:01):
terms of narrative, you know anytime. Um, I mean, our
job as marketers is to help explain to people the
emotional relationship that that we think that they're going to
have with the music. You know, with the art. Our
job is to explain the art to the people. And
that can happen through a multitude of mediums. But for

(09:21):
most of the acts that we work with, UM, you know,
press is hugely important. And even though you feel like
there's a compelling story, I mean, I have a you know,
shorthand for talking about some of the stuff. And I'm like, well,
look if you if you want to be on Morning Edition,
uh you they have to talk about you for six minutes.
What are they going to say? You know? And and

(09:42):
trying to sort of help an artist think about how
to frame their story, um is where where it's like, well,
who are you as a person and why did this
artistic expression flow from you as though inevitable? You know,
sort of like a Greek drama character is destiny, you know,
type of thing. And when you can explain who this
person is and why they're artistic expression flowed from them

(10:05):
as though inevitable, you are painting a picture of an
authentic artist. And I think people want to believe they're
the artists that they uh, you know, they invite into
their lives and um so getting that story right is
very important. But it's also important to get the you know,
a PR person who's hyper credible because you know, if

(10:26):
you think about, like using Morning Edition as an example,
if you are uh, if you're that Morning show or
Morning Edition producer, uh, you have there's PR people that
you trust when they call you and be like I've
got I've got a great story for you to tell
that comes with great music. There's certain people, you know,

(10:47):
publicists that are going to have more credibility than you know,
others who are you know, kind of more you know, uh,
you know people that will just you know, if somebody's
going to write them a check, they'll they'll try their
hardest and do their do the work, but they don't
necessarily have the credibility that certain others will have. So
it's important and and and and who will be a

(11:08):
credible advocate differs from the you know, from from project
to project. You know, we work with um, you know,
Lupe Fiasco. A credible advocate for Loupe is going to
be different than a credible advocate for sake Higlie, you know,
because it's a very different type of music, different stories
that they're that they're telling. But that's a huge component part.
And sometimes artists, you know, if they have a pre

(11:29):
existing relationship with a a publicist, that definitely factors in,
because um, you know, if there's somebody that comes aboard
that I don't have a lot of faith in, that
factors in. But there's certain people that you know, when
they come with other publicists, I'm like, oh, getty up,
let's go. You know, because I've seen their work and

(11:49):
know that when they call that morning edition producer that
it's a pretty good chance that they're going to take
that call and give it all due consideration. Okay, so
those are two members, the agent and the PR person.
What other team members are you looking for? Well, I
mean management for for sure. But um but but but
you know that I think I look at uh, you know,

(12:13):
I look at you know, managers is like the conductor
of the orchestra, and it's you know, in the conductor
you know, has their their role. But if the if
the violin players can't play and the obo obo has suck,
then you know you're not gonna doesn't matter what the
conductor is doing, you know. So I feel like the
people that are out there, um, you know, building the

(12:34):
you know, the touring plans and and and and being
the primary advocate and the and the uh you know,
the disseminator of the narrative, those are you know, to me,
those are the you know, I mean it was I mean,
managers are hugely important. I mean because they can call
and bring other people and all that stuff. So I mean,
you know, I think they're equally as important. But you know,
those are those are the kind of the two things.

(12:55):
And beyond that, I think we pretty much do everything
else in internally, So um, I mean, we've got you know,
great you know radio team, We've got people that work
you know, one person that does nothing but in the retail.
You know, we've got a you know great uh you
know woman who's running our European efforts with a small
team over there. You know. So I think, you know,

(13:17):
outside of that, I think, you know, if we if
we can get those things right, I think that we're
pretty much on board. And what about having an attorney, Well, sure,
I mean I think I think, um, I mean, I mean,
obviously we we encourage all of the artists to have
attorneys who know what they're doing, because we don't want
any surprises. I mean, our our deals are I think

(13:39):
in the context of most recording relationships, uh uh, you know,
they're there. I think our deals are fairly simple. But
but I think it's important that that there are no surprises.
I mean, we don't want uh, you know, we want
somebody who's got a good advocate in the legal front,
because they can playing the deal, they can any questions

(14:02):
come up. It's just uh, you know, it's sort of
like good good fences make good neighbors, well, good contracts
yield good working relationships because when somebody gets surprised on
down the road, it's not a pleasant experience for anyone.
And so, um, yeah, so there's you know, we we
um in fact, I have great um and I know
that's your background too, um, but I have I have

(14:23):
great respect for the legal profession of fact. Um. I
was on course when when h when the major label
world invited me to explore my destiny elsewhere and I
started this company. I went back to school and go
and finished my uh my undergrad degree with an emphasis
on pre law. And if this company was not a

(14:45):
going concern five years in, I was going to go
to law school and become an entertainment attorney. So I
love the law. I think it's you know again, that's
how how we how we make it through. So but
but I don't I mean, we were we worked with
a ton of attorney, but I don't, um, you know,
I think most of the attorneys that we work with
are you know, really solid, they know what they're doing.

(15:08):
There's very very few attorneys that that you know, we
I can't even think of anybody off the top of
my head that where it's just kind of like if
they come, if they if they're part of the discussion,
that we're not going to do the deal. I mean,
I just I just think most attorneys are good at
what they do, and you know, it's it's it's I
don't really consider that a huge factor and whether we're
going to do business with somebody or not. Okay, So

(15:28):
let's just assume somebody comes with people attached two factors.
You know, I certainly know managers who have fired clients
because the manager wanted it more than the act. And two,
there's a long history of people in this business starting
off with one manager or one agent and as they
gain traction, going with somebody else. So to what degree

(15:52):
do you evaluate the desire of the act and to
what degree but you say, well, you know, I know
you have this person, but we really should change that person.
I think if I have doubts about their person that
there you know, any member of their team coming in,
I probably won't, you know, do the deal. I just
feel like that's not you know, I don't know, it's

(16:14):
just a personal thing. It just makes me feel you know,
you know, if they've got somebody that they're committed to,
like if if you know, and I'm invited in, I'm
not going to ever tell anybody, and I honestly I can't.
I'm trying to think of like times recently where I've
even felt that way. Um, and I can't really feel like,
you know, like, well, if they had a different manager,
I do it. I'm sure it's happened, but I can't

(16:36):
remember any any instances. But um, if I do something,
then my goal is to work with that team and
and and honor the honor that team. Um. And if
I feel like, you know, there's a you know, if
if if there's something in with a manager and you know,
I might it just I might not do the deal.

(16:58):
But you know, again, I can't think of any time
that that's really worked. And and honestly, most artists that
we work with are you know, it's very tough to
make it right now. I mean there's a lot of
places too. You know, media is so fragmented that you know,
I think, uh, it's like if you know, I think
I think most artists have their head on straight and
they're ready to work hard and and Um, and they

(17:19):
may not know everything they need to know about about
the business. But but almost everybody that we work with,
I can't think of anybody that doesn't have a solid
work ethic. So you talked about Kylie just to establish
here she's the anomaly. Most people come to you with
some sort of base, some sort of traction. Would that
be accurate? Yes, I think so, Okay, every deal is unique,

(17:40):
but what is the standard deal so to speak? Yeah, well,
there's not a lot of variants in our deals. We
just sort of do what we do and and kind
of a rule of thought, you know, kind of a
rule of thumb for us, is that you know, artists
are se the gross uh you know the other you
know percent uh you know uh, you know, the orchard

(18:02):
takes their distribution fee out of it and then but
you know we we between that goes to us in
the orchard. And so when we set up the business,
our goal was to work um ideally on no less
than a ten percent gross margin and a three percent
net margin. So um, but the the artist, you know,
we'll get back to what they make of gross proceeds.

(18:26):
But any advances that we give or any moneys that
gets spent on their behalf comes out of that UM.
And also we put it in our contracts to where uh,
you know, we can only spend two hundred and fifty
dollars UM a month, so that you know, for sending
Bruce Warren at wor you know, w XPN a piece

(18:47):
of vinyl on an artist or something like that, we
don't have to call the manager and be like, hey,
can we send Brusa you know, ah, you know an
LP UM. You know, some of the basic blocking and tackling.
We don't want to you know, get bogged down in
the minute, but we also don't want to all of
a sudden spring up. Well, we decided to do a
five thousand dollar Facebook ad campaign surprise, you know, because
the artists own this work and and the expenses come

(19:10):
out of their sides. Where we consider it, I mean
we we won't it won't be a pleasing experience if
they don't feel like we're we're transparent uh and um,
you know, good stewards of their financial well being. So um.
But we also you know, in addition to the of

(19:31):
what proceeds that come through the distribution channels, we allow
them to keep a hundred percent of anything they sell
on the road, a hundred percent of dwo C money
we don't share. If somebody sells a you know, something
on the road, they keep a hundred percent of it. Um.
They keep a hundred percent of master use licenses for
film and TV. When it comes to sound exchange money,

(19:52):
they keep a hundred percent of both the artist and
the label side of the money. I jokingly refer to
us as the proud home of the sixty deal um.
And uh, you know, and and it works for our artists,
you know, well, I mean assuming a certain level of success.
You know, if they keep control over what they're doing
and they can earn a living, then they're going to

(20:13):
continue to do business with us. And I think that, um,
not that everybody stays. And and I'm very zen about
you know. I mean, artists have started with us and
then and then gone on to other places and and
uh um, And we protect ourselves if if somebody something
starts to blow up and they feel like they need
the resources to uh uh you know, to you know,

(20:37):
expand the conversation, like you know, Morgan Wade. I'm not
sure if you're familiar with Morgan, but she's you know,
Sony signed her and she's looks like she's well on
her way to being a significant country star. It feels
that way to me. And um, but you know, Sony
has a great promotion you know team, and they're they're
you know, really doing a good job. But you know,
so we I mean, it's not even in our purview

(20:58):
to stop Morrigan, you know, I mean Luke Holmes was
with us, you know as well, like if when it
came time for them to go, they can go at
their will. They we don't. We don't have anything in
our contract that stops them, but we do participate with
an override and so uh so we uh, you know,
we can afford to be zen as long as we're

(21:19):
protecting you know, our you know, if we built the
foundation or or participated in building the foundation, then you
know we deserve to and it's essential that we you know,
protect ourselves financially if we're going to sustain as a business.
So um, but most of our artists don't you know,
they're they're there, you know, you know, the Jason Isbels

(21:39):
and Lucinda Williams and people like that there there. You
know that it's like they're there. They love owning their
own business. They it's a very remunerative way for them
to do business. They have control over whatever they want
to do, and we are they're loving and dutiful back
end staff, you know. So we encourage all all of
our artists to think of themselves as their own labels.
They're just partnering with us to get the the robust

(22:04):
marketing team behind them. So let's just we make a deal.
Is there a term, yes? Is it a three year term? Um?
And but what we do is uh we uh and
we let the basically, well, you know, let the artists
terminate at at will, but we get you know, have
a certain period of time that they have to do it.

(22:24):
So basically, if if the deal just you know, if
we do the three years and the artist, which is
the case quite often most often almost all the time,
where the artist is like, hey, this is working great,
let's keep going, um, then the deal just continues. And
so they can terminate once we get past three years.
They can terminate, you know, at any point, given sufficient notice,

(22:47):
so that we can do what we need to do
to transfer distribution over to you know, to whoever is
going to be their next home. But it also allows
us not to have to like touch the contract every
three years or anything like that. So so they have
the freedom to terminate whenever they want, you know, and
and you know, I like to come up with things
where we don't have to. You know, the more we're

(23:08):
thinking about that stuff, the less we're thinking about marketing
their music and helping them make connections with fans. But
you did mention an override, so hypothetically your Morgan Wade
or your Luke Combs and within that three years you
fly up to a Sony Universal Warner. Your override is

(23:29):
for what projects? Let's say they put one record out,
they could put three records out, and is there a
sunset they The override is just for the project that
we participated in. So we have participation in Luke holmbs
first album, but we don't have it on anything else.
Um and um and and it the override runs into perpetuity.

(23:52):
So um. So that's how that works. How do you
know so much about business? You're talking about the margins
gross margins net margins. You picked that up along the way.
Do you have a background in this? I just I
you know, I have a very systems oriented brain, you know.

(24:15):
I love I love puzzles. I love um thinking about
how things fit together, and I do. I don't read
a ton of business books, but you know, but I have.
You know, I've read books along the way that have
really had a big impact. And to be honest with you,
one of the big books that UM had a big

(24:35):
impact on me with Sam Walton's Made in America, Uh,
you know, because he you know, when he went out there,
he had this lowest price every day uh philosophy, And
there were a lot of critics that were UM going like,
people can't possibly stay in business selling goods you know,
that cheap, and so the idea always stuck with me.

(24:57):
Uh you know. I mean I worked for major labels
from the time it was twenty one two, you know,
thirty five or thirty six, and even though I have
no issues, I don't think there's I mean, you know,
for the amount of money that they you know, they
spend some times in in promoting their artists and building
every think I've got no I have no ethical qualms

(25:17):
about a major label deal whatsoever. I think everybody has
the right to say, you know, I'm going to take
this risk and I'm going to insist on this kind
of reward. I think in in what I was trying
to do was to um give artists an option where
we really thought about ringing all the inefficiencies out of them.
I mean, that's what Sam Walton did, was you know,

(25:38):
he looked at supply chain issues. He looked at a
number of issues and and found a lot of inefficiencies
in the UM in the chain. And and so he
in ringing out those inefficiencies, was able to pass the
price savings onto his customers. Well, my customers are artists,
and so if we can you know, think about how

(25:59):
to on things more efficiently so that artists can earn
more money than they're going to continue to shop in
our store. And that's really you know, one of the
you know, animating philosophies about you know, what we do.
But you know, also like Jim Collins is good, I
mean a lot of the basics, you know, a lot
of the the you know, the big books, you know,
the seven Habits of highly successful people had a big

(26:20):
impact on me. Jim Collins Good too Great had a
big impact on me. Uh. Patrick Lyncon's five Dysfunctions of
Team had a big impact on me. UM and you know,
help shape a lot of our you know, philosophies, but
really the core you know, another of the core philosophies
is that I tell my staff all this all the time,

(26:41):
is that you know, the artist is the central uh
thing of value. You know, That's the only thing I
tell my staff all the time. No one ever bought
a thirty Tigers record. They have, however, bought a Jason
Nisble record and the artist. You know, that implies that
the artists should have more leverage in uh, in these negotiations.

(27:02):
But I think that there haven't been many. There wasn't
a big variation in the structures that you know allowed
them to take their their music to market. And and
so my goal was to try to build you know,
something that would you know, allow artists again. Like I
grew up, as you know, came up in the music
business as a salesman. I used to go sell you know,

(27:23):
Alan Jackson and Brooks and Doune records to Walmart you know,
and to you know Hastings and you know, etcetera. And
so I understand that you know, sales is the the
removal of all impediments to it. Yes, And so you know,
when I think about uh, you know, our artists and
like what is it that's going to get them to
say yes to doing business with me or thirty tigers

(27:44):
us um, you know, like ownership of the master if
we if we uh allow them to own it, but
we create an environment where they want to stick around
and as long as I can get the margin that
we need to run a sustainable business. Is you know,
it's a very spiritual thing for an artist. They created
this work, It came from inside of them and and

(28:05):
to all you know, and again sometimes it's an entirely
appropriate business decision to give up ownership of that work
in order to get the support they need. The records
aren't the only way that they monetize their career. There's
publishing revenue, there's live you know, touring revenue. And it
can be the sane as decision and ever you know,
an artist ever makes to be uh you know, to

(28:26):
enter into a major label type of deal. But there's
a lot of artists that you know, like we work
with Lucinda Williams. Why does she need to do that?
You know the value of her work is the you
know sort of intrinsic financial value of of of her work. Uh,
you know, it's a sustainable thing if we can give
her enough revenue to go and record and to publicize
and do all that stuff. Like the the monetary value

(28:49):
of what her work earns um is much higher than
the input costs of what what she's doing. And so
why should she not have an option that allows her
to be able to do that and and and keep
that that excess value. So let's assume you have an
act you want to work with, if they have a team,

(29:10):
you're making a deal. Do the acts usually come to
you with a finished record? Do they not come with
a finished record? Do you advance so they can record
the record? What's your schedule in terms of the music
being done and how much you know marketing before the
album comes out? What's what's the timeline of all this? Well,

(29:32):
it depends. I would say that in terms of the
time constraints up front, there's there longer now than they've
ever been because, uh well, two main factors. One is
is frankly, vinyl production. A lot of our artists, most
of our artists, um, Vinyl is very important to what

(29:54):
they do for a couple of reasons. One is that,
uh well, it's just a growing configuration. Think during the pandemic,
a lot of people were stuck at home and they
you know, wanted to find ways to entertain themselves at home.
And they've been hearing about this this you know up
surgeon and vinyl, and and to be able to have
a piece of uh, you know, art that they could

(30:15):
you know, where they had the tangible artifact and they
could open up the gatefold and read lyrics and and
and all that. It was you know, I think it
was a you know, an important thing during the pandemic.
And we saw sales just surge on vinyl. We went
from I think we did two thousand units in vinyl
in ten and then last year we did over eight

(30:36):
hundred thousand, So we've almost tripled our our vinyl uh
you know sales during that time. But the other reason
why vinyl is important to us is we place, probably
more than any company I know, placed an inordinate amount
of emphasis on indie retail because, um, you know, we
look at them as a medium as much as it

(30:57):
is a point of sale. If you're here in I mean,
I'm speaking to you from Nashville, and and you know,
we have the legendary you know, Grimes records here and
if you if you give a shit about good music
and you live in Nashville, you shop at Grimes, You're
probably on their social media feeds. Like that's just part
of of of the of the media mix. And if

(31:18):
you don't have vinal for them to sell, uh, then
they can't participate as you know, your your press persons
going out and getting you know, uh, you know, you
know that morning edition piece and and and a radio
team is getting you on appropriate radio stations. If if
you're the type of artists that where you know, indie
retail is an important factor, you're you're leaving them out

(31:41):
of the conversation. And social media is a huge part
of how people, you know, accumulate those impressions to to
be able to make the decision to purchase. I mean,
you know, if you think about the last book that
you bought or the last movie that you want to see,
it wasn't the first decision, you know, it wasn't like
the first time you heard about it. Really you're like,
I mean, I think about the show Search Party. I

(32:02):
was very late to the Search Party, but I love
that show and it was just an accumulation. I heard
some people talk about it. I knew Bow and Yang
was a fan and I really like his work, and
it was just like an accumulation of impressions. And for
music fans, you know, like in Nashville, Grimey's is like
their Facebook feed, their Twitter feed, all that stuff. That's

(32:23):
an important way to communicate. And if you don't include
them or you don't have vinyl ready when street date happens,
then you're you're missing an important taste maker, uh, participant
in the in the conversation. And so so you know,
you know, lead times can be uh, well they're you know,

(32:45):
seven eight months now, you know, and so if you
you can't just sort of be like, hey, I rolled
out of the studio and like let's go uh you know,
let's put it up there, it's just not going to
go as well as it should. I mean, there's certain
types of music where vinyl isn't quite as important or
certain you know genre was you know, we we work with,
you know, the gospel artist Marvin Sapp and you know,
he's not making vinyl and uh and that probably makes

(33:07):
sense because vinyl isn't a big issue there and and
indie retail is not going to be a big factor
in what he does. Um, so you know, we addressed
and and and you know, we just look at the artist,
but the vast majority of our artists are. Vinyl is
a hugely important thing, you know, for for you know,
and and also if you're gonna spend with sales being
as big as they are, if you're going to invest
the money in a in a great pr person and

(33:29):
do all the stuff, and you don't have vinyl there,
like if it's three months late, you know, the conversation
is largely you know, like journalists are moving on, they're
talking about other things. You may get your core fans,
but the general you know public, if they're vinyl, you know,
buying people in in in your it's not available, you know,
then you're you're they're not going to become a fan.

(33:50):
I mean, I done a little bit of looking around
on that. I feel like if you missed by three
or four months, it could affect your overall vinyl, you know,
in terms of what you're going to sell long term.
By like fift you're just taking money off the table.
So we insist as much as we can. And she
had happened sometimes and you know, things happen and and

(34:10):
but you know, but it's a it's a big priority
for us to have vinyl on street days. Okay, let's
stay with the vinyl for a second. Sure, since you
do not almost a million units a year, do you
reserve time and the pressing plants and then just insert
the acts as they come along? Absolutely? Yeah. We have
a woman who is a an absolute maestro at organizing

(34:32):
all that. Her name is Mickey Windham, and she uh
came out of Kindercore, which is a vinyl pressing plan
out of Athens. She understands the the process inside and out,
and she communicates with all these all these uh manufacturers,
and she we you know, yeah, we definitely reserved space
and and and and move the you know, move the

(34:53):
parts around and all that. So how do you come
up with the vinyl number? And two? What is the
breakdown between retail and merch sales at the show? And
I would assume just like you don't charge for c
D s or anything else that show, you wouldn't charge
for vinyl either. We don't, you know, to be honest
with you, I don't know what the percentage breakdown is

(35:15):
between what we do and um and what the artist does.
I'm sure it's different. But because they don't report those
to us, I mean, and you know, and we make
sure that they get set up to you know, report
their sales through at venue or whatever, so that you know,
all of that stuff accumulates. But you know, we don't
have any financial interest in what they sell on the road,

(35:36):
and so we don't really you know, we don't really know.
But you know, it can it can differ. But it's
you know, a lot of artists between their deep their
websites and on the road, they sell a significant amount
of vinyl. And uh, you know, so but it's yeah,
I I don't, to be honest, I don't. I don't
know what the percentages. Okay, So how do you decide
how much vinyl to produce? Well, I mean, you know,
if it's an established artists, you know, we have a

(35:58):
track record of what they're gonna do and and um
and we also uh you know, we'll we'll also um
just you know, I don't. We just use our experience
to try to you know, make the best guests we can.
I mean, so and most of the time I think
we get it fairly right, and sometimes we get it

(36:18):
wrong and we're playing catch up and and you know,
we but we just do the you know, the best
that we can. But for artists that have a history, um,
there's a pretty good you can you can you know,
it's it's pretty easy to guess. And so and sometimes
we have acts that just you know, bust loose. I mean,
I think about Tyler Childer's in his Purgatory record. I mean,
you know we're over you know, that's a platinum record now,

(36:39):
and um, you know, it was like and that thing
exploded quickly and we were playing catch up, like we
were just scrambling the whole you know, it felt like
the whole time just to keep up with the with
the demand. And uh so, you know, we just do
do the best that we can. But if it's if
it's a new like like Kylie for instance, we'll probably
start off with like a reasonable amount, like a thousand

(37:02):
and and if we're if things explode, we're going to
be in the in the same situation like Tyler Childer's
and playing catch up. But you know, we just try
to make the best decisions we can and honestly with
the you know, with a FIRMI on the artist, because
if if we overshoot the mark and an artist is
paying Uh. You know, you know, we make a thousand
too many and they're sitting they're sitting in somebody's basement

(37:22):
and and you know, all of a sudden, they've spent
five or six thousand dollars. That isn't uh you know,
I mean five or six thousand dollars for an indie artist.
That can make a big difference. So we just we
just do the best that we can. Okay, But when
you sell the retail, you sell it one way right correct,
can't come back no, Okay, So let's go back to
the timeline. You're we're working with an act. Hey, do

(37:44):
you advance him any money to make the record? Into
what degree do you get involved with scheduling with the act?
We do advance the money, I'd say almost all the time.
Um sometimes uh, sometimes they show up with a record
that's completely nished, and and you know when they do that, um,
you know, we'll we'll go through it like a profit

(38:05):
loss estimate. We'll go through that with like the management
team and sometimes the business manager, and and we'll put
all the cost inputs, like if you know we're gonna
hire this publicist, it's going to cost X. If we're
going to press a certain amount of violence going to
cost y and we just sort of add all that
up and UM, and so we try we try to
cover all the out of pocket costs that we can

(38:28):
so that it's it's I mean, honestly like we'll get
we'll give the biggest advance that we can possibly give
without feeling like we're digging a hole that we can't
climb out of. Um. You're working on the thin margins
that we work on. You know, we just we have
to be you know, we just have to be a
little bit careful. But twenty years of doing this, you know,
I've got a pretty good barometer on on where those

(38:51):
you know, how how to measure risk and um. And
sometimes you know, we're we're not going to be able
to cover all the costs and and if and if
we say like okay, well something's gonna call to do
the job right, it's gonna cost a hundred thousand dollars UM,
but we only feel comfortable with seventy five dollars worth
of risk. If the act wants to own their work
and have this asset, they're going to have to figure

(39:13):
out how to how to cover the remaining thousand dollars
worth of costs. So let's assume just to make the
numbers round, you advance a hundred k. Then the then
it goes, do you take the hundred k off the top? Yes,
so you re earn the you know, you collect a
hundred k and then it's okay, it will go But

(39:35):
well hold on, let me clarify. One thing is that
you know with with our deal, that hundred thousand comes
out of their seventy five. So we're we're earning from
record one. Uh it's important. Yes, that's an important you
know distinction. So um, so that hundred thousand will come
out of their sevent and we will collect all of
that before the split happens. However, remember that the artist

(40:00):
is collecting all the sound exchange money from both the
artists and label side from day one. We that never
comes through us, you know, all anything that they want
to do if they want to come up with something
through their website and and you know, do some sort
of a special thing where they're going to sell two
thousand pieces of vinyl and it's going to be autographed
or whatever they get of that. So it's not like

(40:21):
they have to recoup to start monetizing their you know,
their record. But it's just we need to fill in
the hole before split occurs. Okay, so we're gonna go.
Let's assume I come with a finished record, and let's
leave the vinyl part out of the equation. How much
lead time do you want before release date? What do

(40:42):
you plan to do before release date? For the most part,
we're scheduling probably no less than nine months and ideally
a year ahead of time. Um, you know partly you
know this, you know, those are just the lead times
that we're working on and and and again there's always
exceptions to that rule. But that's that's you know, primarily

(41:05):
the thing. But but but you know, during that say
nine months period, you know, we're encouraging the artists to
you know, work on you know, uh, you know, creating content. Um.
You know, the publicist is on on board. You know,
they're they're sort of seating the conversation. Um, you know
where uh, you know, the three months out, you know,

(41:27):
they may make the album announcement, they'll do a video premiere,
you know, to to launch it. I mean, we're doing
things to start the conversation before street date. You know,
the street date is is the the time. I mean
the press, the press journalists treat the album releases, the
inciting events in the narrative and so um, so everything

(41:49):
is leading up to that. But also we don't you know,
we don't. It's not going to work very well if
you just sort of like, you know, try to try
to have a have a robust conversation about it without
of you know, helping lead people you know to it.
So so so we are doing work and very public
facing work with the whole team prior to the album

(42:10):
coming out and the but the other thing too is
you know, we we're gonna be working with um, you know,
we're gonna be working with artists to try to help uh,
you know, get things. I'm gonna get into the team
and like we're not doing anything like we were working
with another new artist named Drayton Farley. He's from Alabama. UM,
and uh again we were kind of the you know,

(42:30):
probably the first one to the to the party there.
But you know, uh, you know, Brian Greenbaum and his
team at CIA or on board to book, Kyle Lenski manages,
Ryan Bingham came on to manage UM and you know,
the album hasn't even been recorded. He's going to record
with Sadler Baden who produced the Morgan Wade record and
is in Jason Isbel's band, who's a great producer, and um,

(42:52):
they're recording in in May. And but Drayton has it
record that's out on that he put out on his
own that we're not involved with. It's you know that's
out there, but um, you know, he's out there opening
dates for Charlie Crockett. He's out there opening dates for
Willie Nelson like he's he's out there building an audience,
and we're you know, having the conversation and you know,
but obviously c A is doing that, not us, but

(43:14):
but it's just part of the team. We're just built
building uh awareness And by the time that record comes out,
hopefully a lot of people will have we'll know Drayton
will have seen him live. You know, they will have
already developed a relationship. The relationship won't be sort of
brand new when the when the album streets. So there's sales,

(43:40):
it's part of distribution. There's marketing, and there's coordination. So
let's assume you have a reasonable team who is quarterbacking
like policeman of publicity and tour dates. Are you pretty
hands off on that? Are you saying, way, I'm coordinating
all this and we gotta line everything up well when
it comes to touring. Uh. Yeah, we're not really involved

(44:02):
in that much in tour marketing. But you know, that's
one of the reasons why the agent is so important.
You know. Um, you know I think about like, you know,
Drayton being with CIA. They've got a great tour marketing uh,
you know, effort and they're working with the promoters. It's
just you know, we'll do our part. You know, we
talked to the radio stations, so um, you know, if
if Drayton is going to be in town in a

(44:22):
particular town and we can start startup. I mean, he's
not at the point where anybody's probably gonna want to
put him on the air to interview him because nobody
knows who he is. But you know, we can try
to do whatever we can do to help that. But
we're not taking responsibility for for tour marketing. It's just,
you know, we we need other teammates to do that,
which again was why working with a great agent is

(44:45):
hugely important. And what about PR and the manager? How
often are you in contact with them, you know, when
you have a hot project coming along the line. Oh often,
I'm definitely very active because I'm the probably the if
narrative junkie, you know, when it comes to I, you know,
it's it's important for for Lee and I to understand

(45:05):
the story that's gonna be told. If we don't know
what the story is and why that how that six
minute we can't hear the six minute morning Edition piece
in our own heads, Um, then we're not necessarily going
to understand how to how to converse about this artist
work out in the world and so um, and it's
it's you know, more important and I think appropriate for

(45:27):
us to be the ones to try to if they
don't already have a PR person on board, if you know,
for us to try to help connect them with the
right people to be that credible advocate. Then um, I mean,
I'm I'm personally very involved in all the discussions that
happen with PR because that's just a it's just a

(45:49):
found fundamental principle for me that you've got to get them,
you got you gotta get the storytelling right. Okay. So
there's distribution in sales, there's radio, and there's marketing. What
falls under the head of marketing. What does thirty Tigers
do well, you know, any any any number of things.
I mean, we're we're will advise on on sort of

(46:10):
social media content, but we don't, um you know, we
feel like that's the artist's authentic voice, so we don't.
I don't think it really works particularly well. Some labels
will take over social media. Um, and sometimes artists want
to have other companies come in and and do that
and help them keep a consistent voice and a consistent
flow of communication. But we don't do that uh internally,

(46:33):
you know, like with the publicists. You know, there are
companies out there that help do that. We work with
those companies, but that's kind of up to the artist
and their and their management as to whether or not
they want to do that or not. Um. You know,
we will put advertising plans together uh for um, you know,
for for you know, for you know, to will run

(46:56):
Instagram campaigns and things like that. You know, kind of
the standard uh you know advertising. Plus you know, we're
just we're always uh you know, out out there looking
for um, you know, appropriate ways to to you know,
uh you know, make connections. Um, you know, we're not
I'd say, like brand marketing isn't our you know, we're
not like super strong. We have relationships out there and

(47:18):
so you know, like we'll you know, do some things
with Yettie from time to time and you know, and
uh um and you know and that. But it's uh,
you know, we're we're we're you know, we we try
to help, uh, you know, manage the real you know,
like David Ogilvie, who's the kind of the dean of
modern advertising, he was like the you know, one of

(47:40):
the founders of Ogilvie and Matther. He used to argue
that it takes seven impressions before you make the you know,
anybody knows what it is that you're talking about, and
so we look at editorial, you know, like editorial in
our minds has to be one through four. If you're
advertising something and nobody knows what it is, then they're
not going to buy it. I mean I think about

(48:00):
you know, I drive around Nashville, and you know, I
see some poor act who thinks that like buying a
billboard on Broadway is going to be there like that
somehow that's gonna matter. But if like you've never heard
of that person, you don't know what that you know,
who that is, You're not going to go you know
by their record. You know, it has to be editorially driven.
So my dictate to my staff is, you know, impressions

(48:22):
one through four half to be um editorially driven. Five
through seven have to be you know that then that
can be advertising. And we try really hard to UM
got talking about NPR a lot, but you know, you know,
you just use these as shortcause I try to encourage
my staff to think about sort of how people live
and how they consume. And like, you know, I talk

(48:45):
about like somebody driving to to work and hearing that
morning edition piece and you know, you think about their day.
You know, they hear it on their way to work.
Then they get to work. They've got a bunch of
ship going on at work. Uh, they come home at
the end of the day, you know, they have dinner
with their family, they might watch some TV shows, and
that thing that they heard that moved them, you know

(49:07):
in the morning is a is a is a bit
of a distant memory. So it's important for us to
through targeting advertising. Uh, you know, like if if we
can you know, have a uh an ad in their
Facebook feed to say like, you know, you know, when
we try to target like in that instance, uh, self
identified NPR you know, fans and all that kind of stuff.

(49:29):
So if we can have something hit their Facebook feed
to say like, hey, artist X, you know you you
heard the you know, you know, like you heard the
Sturgil Simpson thing, or you know earlier in the day,
click here to hear the thing, or click here to
buy the record, whatever the messaging is. What we're trying
to do is build those seven impressions, but really try

(49:49):
to work with with the acts budget and spend their
money smart so that we're reinforcing editorially driven impressions. Okay,
let's just talk about advertising, talk about the mix with
print radio online and explain how you do online. I mean,
we don't do exclusively online, uh, but that's probably percent

(50:13):
of it. I mean we you know, if we do
uh you know, if we do things like I I
you know, listen to the episode that you did with
you know, Michael Rappino and you know he talked about that.
It's just it's it's there's certain acts that we're it's
kind of appropriate, but for the most part, you can
target so succinctly. UM. Online where is is those other

(50:34):
mediums are a little bit scatter shot. But um, but
you know, but but again the artists like we worked
with Charlie Crockett and one thing that Charlie and it's
hard with the success he's having, it's hard to argue
against that. But he places a lot of um, a
lot of emphasis on on outdoor like billboards, you know,
he does in key markets and you know, and um

(50:55):
and so we you know, we uh we carry that
forth for him, and and and again hard to argue
with the with the results, you know. And uh so
but I'd say what we do is online because of
the same thing that you know that he was talking
about before, the the ability to target is more efficient. Okay,
So how do you decide what's a reasonable spending? Where

(51:18):
do you spend it? Well, you know, Facebook, Instagram, Uh,
you know, I mean, I think a lot of the
same places that people spend. I mean, we we have
a two person team who does all that and and
uh this, uh you know, our guy who oversees that.
His name is Garrett Carty and he came out of
uh Corporate America and uh you know he's he's he's

(51:39):
got a much better sense of that, uh, you know
than I do. You know, honestly, like we we just
depend on him. I mean, you know, they look at
you know, they'll run ads, they'll they'll monitor how they're
how they're working or not working. If something's not connecting, well,
you know, will ramp it down, maybe change our messaging
or change our approach. But you know, I think you know,
we just used this. You know, we go we're people

(52:00):
are so you know Instagram, Facebook, you know, etcetera, and
and uh, you know we're not you know, and you
know and occasionally, uh, you know the things like we're
a lot of our acts aren't necessarily like you know,
TikTok uh you know, uh, you know, artists, but um,
you know, but we'll look at it at any medium

(52:21):
that we think is um is appropriateing. But Garrett Is
is definitely our maestro when it comes to that. He'll
he'll know what a lot more about it than than
I do. So I depend on my staff to do.
Let's let's switch to radio. Major labels putting out fewer acts,
fewer records than ever before. They tend to promote everything

(52:42):
they go in. Let's say, with five records, they don't
say this is great. You want to play this this
one You'll never play it. So, you know, there's issues
of credibility. To what degree do you work radio for
your acts and how do you do it? Well? Um,
we have to to very see eas and great radio
promotion people. Um. Uh Lindsay Reid, who uh is our

(53:07):
person who does triple A an Americana. Um, great promotion
person one you know at the at the Bowlder conference. Uh.
You know two years ago he won Promotion Person Indie
Promotion Person of the Year. Last year we won Indie label.
It was you know, because of his work um uh
and his advocacy for our our artists. Um. In addition

(53:29):
to the quality of work our artists are producing, of course.
But um, you know, we we place a lot of
importance on on that. I mean, you know, it's uh,
um you know, I you know, I tend to you know,
like I'll go to the noncom conference in Philadelphia and
you know, shake hands and slapbacks and and try to
build relationships to show those you know, promotion people. First

(53:52):
of all, it's you know, I like these people, and
and and secondly, you know, if if I'm showing up,
it shows that we you know, really care about their
contributions to you know, to to you know, uh, you know,
to what they're doing. And uh we uh recently brought
on Mike di Pippa, who was a season guy who
was a senior VP uh for like rock and alternative

(54:14):
at um at At Island f JAM and then he
was with Republican Elector before that, and you know, he's
great in those genres and and so if if you know,
in Mike's world, it takes probably more of a team, lindsay,
I mean, we'll bring on maybe an independent. Maybe we

(54:34):
won't in the Triple A and Americana world, but for
you know, if we're taking something to uh either rock
or alternative, we'll you know, need to tap into you know,
to teams. So we'll either add independence a lot of
times will work with the Orchards in house team that's
under Danny Bush. Really it just depends on record by record.

(54:55):
But we you know, we have ways if we need
a team, we have ways to access a team. If
we uh don't need to spend an artist money on
on a team that and we can handle it internally,
then we handle it internally. But but but we we radios,
I mean you know, radio is hugely important. Are there
some records you put out where you don't go to radio? Yeah? Well,
I you know, I think no, I mean I can't well,

(55:18):
I can't think of any uh. I mean it feels
like they're there, you know there there there must be,
but I feel like, um, you know, even projects that like,
I mean we you know, I'll go to Folk Alliance
every year. You know, we have we you know, we
have projects that um, you know that are are but
you know, and I'll go to the Folk DJ Reception
and all that kind of stuff. And and Lindsay works

(55:39):
you know that market too. So you know, I think
there's for almost all that I can't think of an
act that doesn't fit somewhere at radio. It's just a
matter of you know, is it a big commercial format
or is it more of a niche thing like uh,
you know, like uh, you know the folk panel. Um.
But you know, if if if there's any relevance anywhere,

(56:00):
we try to make sure that we come up with
a plan to you know, to introduce that music and
advocate for our artists. Um. And and also there's certain
types of music like you'll not see any straight pop
acts you know on our roster. I mean, we're starting
to sort of creep creep into that a little bit,
but just you know, but heretofore, you know, not yet.

(56:21):
It's really might with Might pivot being on board, it
feels like we can we can now we have somebody
who knows how that is done, and so you know,
so we might sort of creep into that, but heretofore,
you know, we we haven't done that because we just
didn't have the relationships and the knowledge about how all
that worked and where all the bodies are baring. You know,
it's just like you've got to have somebody who can
who can deliver a roadmap. So if if you know,

(56:44):
even though if there's a style of music where it
depends on radio and we're just not uh the right,
if it's like we don't know how to how to
connect the dots, that we're not going to take it on.
We're not doing anybody any favors if we're you know,
sucking their ship up. So let's pull the lens back.
What moves the needle? What we do know certainly since

(57:04):
the internet error, will just call it the year two thousand.
Everything shifted used to be you wanted on beyond late
night TV. It worked now people say basically s n
L and CBS Sunday Morning, And of course radio is
less of the pie than it used to be. And
of course we have online. We even have some print

(57:26):
in terms of stories we established earlier. You want seven impressions,
but really, what's the hierarchy of power and what really works?
You know? I think you know the things that you
you know, talked about. I mean, you know, we've been
lucky enough to have people on CBS Sunday Morning. Uh,
you know, we've had uh you know, like like Anthony

(57:46):
Mason is a big fan of the type of music
that we do a lot, and even when they don't
show up on CBS Sunday Morning, he'll have them on
CBS This Morning or CBS Saturday Morning. And you know
that has an impact. Um, you know it's but before
you go beyond that, does any other TV have an impact?
Do you say, oh, I want to get you on

(58:07):
Fallon and Kimmel or do you say that's just not
moving the needle? Now? You know, I mean honestly, if
if if, if you never know, I mean sometimes artists
go on there and you don't really see much of
an impact. But this wasn't our record. But I think
about Nathaniel rate Lift and his fallon performance that lit
the fuse for everything that's happened with that guy, and

(58:27):
deservely so. He's an awesome artist. But you just never know,
I mean, you must be present to win, you know.
It's like if somebody wants to help you tell the story.
And and again you have to, you know, weigh the
cost of everything. It's not an inexpensive thing to get
an artist in their band out there um to be
able to do that stuff. But you know, I think
if you believe in your artist and you believe in
the music, you know, you hope that something happens like

(58:50):
happens with Nathaniel rate Lift, you know, because you believe
in the story that you're telling, and you know so
we will will never pull up short in in those opportunities,
you know. And and again, I think it just has
to do with the diffusion of media. Um, there's just
more places to be seen and heard, so therefore there's
less eyeballs on any particular medium. And but you know,

(59:11):
it's just it's such a you know, it is such
a crowded marketplace. To try to uh make an impact
that if if Jimmy Kimmel wants to put one of
our artists on, We're gonna show up and we'll write
the check to make sure that that happens. And you
just never know and so uh so we we we will,

(59:31):
you know. I mean, I'm yeah, I'm a big proponent
of like must be present to win. So uh you know, Okay,
what about print, I'm not I'm telling about print editorial
to what degree is that? I mean hugely important? Fifty
years ago it was everything, but what is it today?
It's it's it's hugely important. But I'd say I differentiate
between um, long form narrative and just sort of like

(59:52):
you know, reviews. I I again, you know, thinking about
the revelation of the artist and who they are, uh
and and why their art flows from them, as though
inevitable that the explanation of that really only happens in
long form narrative pieces, and so um hard to do

(01:00:13):
on the third page of the album reviews. You know,
not that we don't love getting our albums reviewed and
all that, but you know, so we really try to
uh you know, dig in and and and of course
that's primarily on the on the publicist, but we try
to really that's what we we what we absolutely hope
for and and it can have a huge impact. I mean,

(01:00:33):
I think like of a print piece like Jason Isbell
when the Southeastern record came out, we we uh that
record came out I think on June eleven, and I
think it was back when we had Tuesday Street Days
and on the June two Sunday New York Times. I
think it was Dwite Gardner that wrote the piece. But

(01:00:54):
like that peace was the thing that let the fuse
because it told the story so viewed of flee and
believe me, the you know, the everybody on the team,
the publicists, you know, shared that New York Times Sunday
piece with everybody else. And then we got Terry Gross
and then we got you know, because it was just
such an important, uh and beautiful piece explaining where this

(01:01:16):
music came from. That you know, we we definitely look
for those kinds of opportunities and again some will have
more impact. You know, The New York Times Sunday magazine
doesn't do many music pieces, you know, so when we
get when we get one like that, it can it
can really be a you know, like I said, that's
the kind of thing that lights the fuse. So we
you know, look, we just want to work hard and
if anybody wants to help us tell the story, we

(01:01:38):
welcome it. And you know, we don't you know. And
again there's when it gets to the point of like, Okay,
well we've got a kind of wigh out what it
is that we're spending in order to get those impressions.
But um, you know that's a consideration. But you know,
we we just want to work as hard as we
can to help people understand the magic with the artists

(01:01:58):
that we work with in and we don't bring anybody
in unless we think that there's magic there. And so
we just don't want to leave anything on the table.
What is your different and attitude towards satellite radio versus
terrestaural radio. Obviously you want to play on on everything,
but how important is satellite and how is it visa
v ter restaurant? Um, honestly, I think they're I think

(01:02:21):
they're equally important. I really do. I mean, if if
you're a satellite radio uh subscriber, like you know, it's
important enough for you that you're paying a subscription every
month to be able to listen to Outlaw Country or
Willie's Roadhouse or you know or whatever. I mean. You know,
satellite allows a sort of a finer gradation of of

(01:02:43):
of of choices, and and it's a it's a great Um,
it's a great asset. But you know, um, but terrestrial radio,
you know, it's also hugely important. You know, you know,
the the you know here in Nashville. Um, each of
these you know, terrestrial radio stations has their own constituency.
W h you know x NP, which is you know,

(01:03:05):
kind of our equivalent of like a w XPN or
a k c r W has their constituency. Lightning one
hundred has their constituency. The country stations have their constituency,
and and so, um, you know, it's like it's all
it's all important. I mean, I don't. We don't really
prior prioritize. We tried. We just tried. If it can,
if we feel like it can fit on the station,

(01:03:26):
we're gonna show up and explain why we think our
artist is special, and we're going to ask for their support.
And we may get it, we may not get it,
but we're going to show up and ask. So Okay,
let's go to the third leg of the model, which
is distribution. Where the rubber meets the road. That's where
the transaction is. If the transaction that doesn't happen, thirty
tigers doesn't make any money. Correct. So breakdown how you

(01:03:48):
viewed distribution today the varying avenues. You know, we we obviously,
streaming is hugely important. As you know, I've been a
big advocate it and defender of the streaming uh you
know model, and I and I uh, you know, I
don't uh you know, and even people that argue, well,

(01:04:10):
streaming as a means to an end, I'm like, nope,
it is, you know, it is an end unto itself. Um.
But you know, we we also place again having one
person who does nothing in this company, who does nothing
but communicate with indie retail stores. And I explained earlier
why we place an inordinate amount of importance on that

(01:04:30):
because of the dissemination of the narrative. Um. I mean
it's just you know, you know, it's all it's all
important to us, and and you know, and people are
you know, even like c d S people are kind
of like, you know, or do we even need to
make CDs anymore. And I'm like, yes, if ten percent,
if even ten percent of your audience chooses to to

(01:04:51):
consume your music that way, and you don't make it
available to them, uh, you're basically telling them you don't
care about their you know, about their business. And so
you know it. You have to manage inventory and uh
and and you know, put appropriate um, you know, spend
appropriate amounts of money and all that stuff. But but

(01:05:13):
it's all important to is. I look at it like
a customer service issue. If somebody gets inspired to uh
consume your artists, then you better have music there the
way that they want it. And you know, and we
you know, work with our our friends at the Orchard,
and I do mean friends, Uh just there. I just
you know, I can't you want wind me up. And
I'll talk all day long about all the ways in

(01:05:35):
which they've been an incredible partner for us. But you know,
we work with them, uh you know, six ways to
Sunday to make sure that wherever our artists music can
and should be that that we're getting the you know
that we're there and um and on the streaming side,
you know, we definitely have you know, the Orchard definitely

(01:05:55):
does their part, but we also build our own relationship
its uh and and work you know. Just you know
my background as a as a label regional, you know,
I used to I mean, it was the salesman's rep
to go to go take the order, uh and to
do that. But but my job was to come in
and paint with with finer detail on you know, what

(01:06:16):
was the actor mean that the artist you know, or
any particular record. Um, you know, the salesman couldn't keep
all the specificity about what was going on with this
record because he's selling a million here, shearre selling like
a million records and I'm selling a small handful of records.
So it's my job to paint in finer detail and
to understand with the account what needs to be said

(01:06:38):
to them too that's relevant to them, and and to
help get the right outcome, to get the right order.
Well that's you know, that's what we do with the DSPs.
And I charged my you know, staff, I tell him like, look,
at some point, no matter how great the orchard is, um,
you know, at some point because the volume of what
they are charged with with handling, our number one priority

(01:06:59):
may be their number six priority. And by the time
the number six priority gets talked about. Um, probably the
person who is on the other side of the table
is going dead inside a little bit. So it's important
that we have that relationship so that we can you know,
we can articulate why our number one priority is our
number one priority, you know. So, um, so we we

(01:07:20):
work with this region much much as you know people
have in the past. It's you know, it's our job
to have the relationships and pain and finder detail about
our artists. Traditionally, well, if you look over the last
ten years, hip hop and young pop has moved technologically forward.

(01:07:45):
First they embrace streaming. Let's leave vinyl out because there
are people who buy as souvenirs, people who buy the listen.
It's a business unto itself. The audience that you tend
to sell to is not children, not teenagers, but people
who are older thinking people. Traditionally, I mean, in the

(01:08:08):
last ten years, they have been the last to adopt
new technologies. Do you find I mean, so, if you
look at it, rock in general is the worst. If
for no other reason, the acts keeps saying streaming is
the devil. Okay, So first we had hip hop and
then ironically country moved in. So to what degree have

(01:08:28):
you seen the mixed change from physical to streaming and
then they're streaming? And to what degree does your do
your acts had a sales file business? Well again, you know,
I feel like, uh, we just try to push on
every front that we can. I mean, you know, to
take like no, no, no no, no, no, you're gonna do

(01:08:50):
all that work. I'm asking. I'm pulling back saying in
terms of a trend, what do you see as the
trends and if you've seen movement since you've been doing it,
or go back. I mean a little bit of progress,
you know. But I mean I look at you know,
like you had Ricky Lee Jones on you know a
few weeks ago, who we are very honored to work
with and and you know, like her, her audience is

(01:09:13):
is going to probably be some of the last people
to adopt, you know, new technologies. And but you know,
I mean it's happening. And I think the streaming services
are are are trying to you know, build communication. It's
just part of the It's I think it's just part
of the natural arc of how technologies are adopted. And um,

(01:09:34):
you know, younger people are more comfortable with new technologies,
you know, than the older people. And I don't think
that there's much that we can do to alter that trend.
And I know you're not asking what we're doing to
alter that trend, but um, you know, it's you know,
I think it's getting a little better, but it's not
getting like, it's not getting better very quickly. So let's

(01:09:57):
break down what percentage of revenues. We'll put vinyl in
the mix. Okay, where is the money? Obviously is a
huge markup on vinyl, uh, and you know there are
very few costs on digital. But in terms at the
end of the day, when you look at your spreadsheet,
where is the money being generated? Well, for us, about

(01:10:19):
of the business is streaming. Well, i'd say digital because
you know, we when we you know, get our you know,
when we have all of our breakdowns, like Apple is
includes the downloads. But you know, let's face it, the
majority of the money even from Apple is definitely in
Apple Music and not you know, on iTunes and the downloading.
So about of our sales are are come from the

(01:10:42):
digital side and then comes from from physical and uh.
But on the commercial country label, um that you know,
we we partner you know also are a partner in
a joint venture commercial country label is uh you know
with Sony of that number is is the streaming number

(01:11:05):
or the digital number is appreciably higher? You know, it's
probably like and the only reason why it might even
be ninety ten is because we work with Scotty McCrary
and he has a lot of fans who are you know,
still by CDs and things like that. So but like
Russell Dickerson, who's another one of our artists, is probably

(01:11:27):
nineties six, four five or something like that. So it's
it's um but but but for thirty tigers about these
are astounding numbers in terms of what the average person thinks. Hey,
the acts you work with, are they savvy to streaming
or do you have to educate all of them? It's
a mixed bag. I mean, we definitely have, you know, artists.

(01:11:49):
But that's one of the reasons why I try to
be so public about my uh, you know, these conversations,
and you know, not just for our artists, but you know,
all artists. I mean I think that you know, I
think it's it's just important to it's it can be
a very complex issue and and and it's just it's

(01:12:10):
it's just, um, it's not as simple as Spotify good
or Spotify bad. You know, it's you know, you know,
the revenue streams can um. You know, people want to
simplify things to an incredible degree. Like I know, one
of the you know, kind of talking points that people
that are have tend to be suspicious as streaming have

(01:12:31):
used a lot. I see it on Twitter a lot.
But you know, like only thirteen thousand artists earn you know,
fifteen fifty thou dollars a year or more on Spotify.
And I'm like, well, yes, but you know, okay, so
be it. But but you know, for us, at least Spotify,
just of what comes through the distribution channels, Spotify themselves

(01:12:51):
is less than thirty pc of our business. And so
if you uh, and and given that they are h having,
you know, they are able to sell their own product
when it comes to D to C and on a
road sales, Spotify probably in terms of their overall revenue mixes.
So let's say, so then you're talking about an artist

(01:13:15):
if if if the thirteen thousand artist is making the
most successful artists on Spotify, uh is making fifty thou
dollars I mean, you know, at least by our by
our metrics, that's an artist who's earning two hundred thousand
dollars from just from the prerecorded stuff. That doesn't include
publishing revenue, that doesn't include what they make on the road,

(01:13:37):
that doesn't include T shirts that they're selling. And so
I think sometimes people cherry pick these, you know, these facts,
and they put them out there and they don't really
dig in and think about them contextually, and so and
and and and I think it's destructive because and again,
like I'll also recognize too that there's certain types of

(01:13:58):
genres where, um, where the proportion of streaming is much
higher than than than it is for ours. But I'm
just using our experience as an example of how you
can try to make an argument that sounds bad, but
when you look at it in context and you take
the time to explain, you know, you know, it sort

(01:14:18):
of explained what that really means, then then it doesn't
it's not so bad, and and or it's not as bad.
But having said that, I don't want to diminish the
experience of artists who are you know, the hundred and
thirties thousand's most successful, hardest on Spotify because they're having
a hard time making a living. And and and honestly
one of the reasons why I try to be so

(01:14:40):
public in my and again, you know, I'm not holy.
I don't think Spotify is like a you know, a
hundred percent perfect or anything like that. You know, as
a liberal, I feel uncomfortable quoting Ronald Reagan, but he, uh,
you know, said something very wise. If you if you
agree with somebody of the time, uh, they're a friend

(01:15:01):
and an ally, not a trader. And and uh, you know,
I I feel like the conversation around this tends to
get so polarized that the the you know, the nuance
and the facts and the and the perspectives in the
in the context gets completely lost. And it's a complex business,

(01:15:21):
you know, you and if you're not a student of
the game and you don't understand what's gonna go on,
you're gonna make some bad decisions. And independent artists those
Spotify has democratized access and allowed a multitude of artists
to to to actually have a legitimate shot without asking
anybody's permission to participate. If if they get despondent and

(01:15:44):
give up because they feel like they can't possibly win. Well,
that's not the right answer, and that's not true, that's
not that's not how they should look at it. But
but they do need to understand, you know, what the
mix is, how they can succeed, how the fact that
they're given uh an opportunity, how to how to slingshot that,
and how to translate that into more success later on,

(01:16:07):
and and it and it takes a lot of work,
and and I just you know, it's like I just
want people to have at least what I see as
the information. But but again, like in the aftermath of
of the Rolling Stone piece and your you know kind
uh um um amplification of my thoughts and ideas. You know,
I've heard from some very um you know, it's sort

(01:16:29):
of astute critics about you know that. Again, we're like,
we largely agree with you. But here's some other things
to think about. You know, like Tom Gray from the
band Gomez. Um he you know, has an organization or
started a movement called Broken Record. And you know, we
had a an incredibly thoughtful exchange about Okay, Tom, who
I know and or met once and basically slags me

(01:16:52):
all the time. I'm very interested. He's a very advocate
for the artist. What did he say to you that
you said, hmm, I didn't think of that. Well. I
think the point that he made that hit the hardest
for me, where I was kind of like, I need
to consider this more. Was you know, a discussion about
the the the average price UH or the average revenue

(01:17:15):
per consumer at Spotify and UM and how you know,
because you know, you know, I was talking about how
the um you know, part of the reason why Spotify
pays less is because they have the freemium model to
add supported model, which again you can make an argument
that that depresses overall revenues, but I also make the

(01:17:38):
argument that like, well, it's also bringing in revenues that
we would never see with lower income UH consumers and
UM and and and UM and I think even from
the standpoint of of like, you know, people that don't
you know, we're ten dollars a month, and of course
you know, some people will say, well if they can't
afford ten dollars a month, and I'm like, well that

(01:18:00):
you're speaking I mean, you know, you're speaking from a
place of some you know, a certain amount of privilege
when you know, dismiss you know, people to which a
d and twenty dollars a year actually does make a
little bit of a difference, you know, And are we
going to exclude those people from you know, from the
consumption of art and music like you know, and so
and also people who are lower income as soon as

(01:18:22):
they can afford you know, uh, you know, kind of
come up a little bit more. I'm sure they don't
love listening to ads. They probably rather listen to music
without ads, and and they may you know, then turn
into consumers. But we're either if we don't have that
at least some option, then they're just not going to
be that be there at all. They're not They're gonna
going to be They're gonna be utterly non participatory and

(01:18:44):
in our business. But the point that he made that
kind of you know, resonated with me is that he goes, well,
that's not the only reason why those numbers continue to
come down. He goes, Spotify has made the decision, in
order to try to capture market share to do things
like the family plan, where you know, you can get
four people for fifteen dollars a month, and and the

(01:19:05):
college student thing for for you know, five dollars a month,
and so they are discounting, uh, you know, and making
those decisions unilaterally when uh uh sixty plus percent of
the revenues uh, you know are are you know with
the artists And he's like and and and you know,
they have the decision to make it. But but but

(01:19:27):
like if if if they wanted to invite stakeholders to
participate in in those discussions, that might go a long
way towards artists not feeling uh, you know, aggrieved. And
and then of course also the and then this is
one of the things where personally I'm on the side
is I wish that Spotify would um just drop their

(01:19:51):
appeal for the CRB the raise in the CRB rate
um and and uh and uh you know, and pay
writers a little better. We all want that, at least
those on the artistic side. Uh. The unfortunate thing is
just like the English commission, the government commission, they did along,

(01:20:11):
they did hearings, they found out it was the labels,
not Spotify and their deal. Just going back, because I
want to be on the record for people listening to this,
people seem to have forgotten that one of the reasons
Spotify was so successful was because of the free tier
which eliminated piracy. Spotify was not the very first reading

(01:20:33):
Rhapsody existed in America for over a decade. And so
the people you know who I mean, do I wish
that YouTube paid a little bit more? Yes, But interestingly,
real music fans tend to be on one of these
streaming services as opposed to YouTube as far I mean,

(01:20:55):
I'll be I'll be crashed. In terms of Tom's point, yes,
Spotify will give you a seat in the table when
you give him a seat in the studio. I mean,
this is a this is a business. I mean I
I sat through all this with Steve, with Daniel k.
And if you think this guy see me, you haven't
met him. But uh, in the first part of the

(01:21:17):
first decade of this century, Okay, they have done. This
just makes me crazy about a soft business like artists
and some of this stuff to science. I remember when
they went to the uh smartphone model and he said,
we're gonna have a free tier on the smartphone model
and I said, no, there should be a line, and

(01:21:39):
he says, we did all the research, we get higher
conversion to paid and he convinced all the labels of this. Okay, well,
but and I think if I mean to to underline
your point. Sorry for interrupting, but I'm enthusiastically agreeing. Like
if you look at the again, I look at our
our thing, and the number of streams we get from
the subscription side compared to the freemium side, it's it's

(01:22:03):
not even close. And so I mean people, it's it's
it's such a good value that if people can afford
to pay, they're going to pay, and they have seen
that conversion, you know, rate so but I mean, but
I do think, um, you know, I do think I
enjoyed the conversation with Tom. I thought it was very thoughtful,
it was very respectful, and you know, as long as

(01:22:26):
people are engaging and open to, you know, other people's
ideas and thoughts. But but but also at a certain point,
you know, I remember one time back when I was
selling records to Hastings, and I don't even remember what
the issue was, but I think it had something to
do with a Robert r'keene record and whether he was
going to be put into country or or you know,
or having an Americana section or something. But any rate,

(01:22:47):
I was talking with Steve Hicks, who was the buyer,
and I was very impassionate about like what needed to happen.
He was like, hey, hey, David, guess what I said.
What because there are stores not yours, and you know,
it was like it's a valuable thing to you know,
to learn. So I mean I feel, you know, like
you know, I don't feel like you know, I mean,

(01:23:08):
you know, and you know, Tom even said like, look,
you know Spotify, you know, like they'll talk to me
and and and you know, and and and all that,
and again I think that there are some valid critiques,
but you know, uh, it's like, you know, but let's
have those conversations. Let's have them respectfully, but like let's uh,
you know, and let's all work towards the met a bit.
But any system, I mean, one thing that I wrote

(01:23:30):
at the end of my thing, any any streaming were
bad for the ecosystem, Like any system that promotes uh
uh you know, uh you know, in like an incredible
explosion of access for independent artists also which is raised
revenues by helped raise revenues from at least here in
America by sev over the last six years, is not

(01:23:53):
a broken system. And one of the reasons why I
was such an advocate early on about streaming and what
why I felt it was going was going to happen.
Was I picked up the phone and I called people
in Sweden where back by um they had scaled the
of the total revenues in the music business and in

(01:24:13):
Sweden was through streaming. And I asked, like, well, what happened?
How is your business? Are you doing more business? I
talked to a couple of artist managers. They were happy
with what they were seeing, you know, and it's just,
you know, it's like it's been a good thing. Is
the room for you know? Are there some things that
I wish they would do differently? Absolutely? But I just,
you know it when the conversation turned from you know,

(01:24:36):
and like the Joe Rogan thing, like look, artists can
follow their conscience and do whatever they want. They can,
you know, I don't. I don't really have an opinion
about that necessarily, and and you know, artists can come
to their own conclusion. But it quickly turned from uh, well,
you know, like okay, well they're they're you know, angry
about Joe Rogan. Where have you been? You know, like

(01:24:56):
the real crime is how much they're fucking artists and
how much they're not paying. And I was like, well,
that is not my experience, nor the experience of a
lot of the artists that that we work with, and
you know, so I just it's and again like it's
a you know, it's a it's a complex thing, and
and you know, it's it takes some time and some
nuance to try to explain it all. But like I I,

(01:25:19):
you know, I feel driven to from my experience to
try to talk about this stuff because it's important. You know, artists,
if they're going to succeed, they have to understand the
state of play. And I'm going to do my part
to try to help tell it from my viewpoint. But
I'm also going to remain open to other people's ideas
and and you know, because it's it's fun to learn.

(01:25:39):
It's fun to to hear other people's ideas, even if
you don't agree with them. Okay, I want to comment
on that a little bit. Um And this is what
people get angry with me about. But I hear from
these people all along. The people I hear from most
are the people with no traction. They believe that their
future was stolen by the Internet. Then you have people

(01:26:02):
who were sustained by the old model who were never
in the black ever on their record royalties. Somebody moved
their cheese and they can't handle it. The other thing
is I remember watching Bill Maher both these stories going
to be from Bill Maher, and he had Paul Krugman,
the economists and Jesse whatever, who had been the governor

(01:26:23):
of Minnesota. And he kept on talking Jesse, all the
farmers getting screwed, the government's taking the money. And Paul's
got his hand and said, he goes, those are you
have a completely opposite it's farm supports. They're not taking
the money, they're giving the money. And the other thing, uh,
that Bill mart You know, he'd like to play in

(01:26:44):
the NBA, but he's five seven. So now since it's
been Democratye, the number one thing in this world, well
subsequent to information in general, is access. And what people
don't realize is when you start in falsehoods, you can
get no access. Like occasionally these big business titans will

(01:27:07):
sit and be bombarded by these people. But if you
look at the titans and the music business people running
the major labels, they are never accessible. Never Lucy and
Grange never did a public thing. The head to the
other two labels never did a public thing because they're
inundated with the sour grapes. As you say, they are

(01:27:28):
running a business, and in all other walks of life,
to the winners go the spoils. But in addition, Daniel
Lex said, and it's actually more is going to the
so called long tail. And you're not entitled to make
a living in the arts. So if you want to

(01:27:49):
talk to the people who can help you out, you
should know the lay of the land. If someone's gonna
talk to you or Danny Bush or any of these labels,
they come in Spotify is to devil it. They're gonna say, yeah, fine,
I never want to talk to that guy again. You know,
is it hard being an artist? These are distribution platforms.

(01:28:11):
They're based on numbers. There's so much misinformation. You know.
I'll write you know, uh, you talk about the whole thing,
and I agree, totally became less about what Rogan said
about Spotify the platform. But I'll write something. I'll talk
about the free tier, and I'll get an email after
I said we should put your playlists on Title. Well,

(01:28:31):
Title doesn't have a free tier, and as the smallest
market share of all people. I literally wrote it. It's
what you're responding to. So it gets very frustrating. And again,
you know, I think if you know, this is where
consumers have agency, if you if you you know, if
you care about that, then uh, then go go be

(01:28:52):
a title subscriber. I mean this, this is where the
marketplace you know can speak to it. A lot of
people are doing that, and I think that's that's great,
and that's that's what everybody you know. But but but
like but also just be informed about it. And also
again like I try to be when I talk about
this stuff, I do want to be respectful about you know,

(01:29:13):
everybody's you know, experienced, uh you know about it, and
I try to try to be um you know when
you know, like when I talked about the you know,
my piece about well, you know, sixt of businesses in
America fail within ten years, and you know, and when
you know, I mean and and honestly as a person
who started a business and um and worked really hard

(01:29:38):
and it was by no means certainty. I mean, you know,
I paid myself forty thousand dollars a year for the
first you know, many many years of the company, and
I did not make a profit, and I came out
of the major label world. I was making you know,
a lot more money than than that. But I believed
in what I was doing, and I lived very frugally
and worked really hard to make my business work. And

(01:29:58):
I know other people do the same. Um. But when
I see you know, a nail salon, you know, closed down,
or a restaurant closed down, that's somebody's dream. That's that's
that's died that, you know. And not to say that
other dreams can't come up, but like I have great
empathy for that, Um, I really do. And you know,
but but you know, it's it's that's uh, you know,

(01:30:20):
that's a natural occurrence. And I want people The thing is,
I want people's dreams to come through. I want artists
to succeed. Not everyone is going to. If you don't,
if your music does not connect to the point where
you it brings enough monetary value in you, you then
whether you deserve to make a living or don't deserve
to make a living, that's that's you know, that's a
subjective thing. The fact is, if you don't bring it

(01:30:41):
enough money, you're not going to make a living. So
look at the situation for what it really is and
get ready to work your fucking ass off, because that's
what it takes. That's what I did, That's what you know,
that's what many many other artists. I think about Charlie Crockett,
That motherfucker works harder than anybody I know, and he
is succeeded because his music is great and he works

(01:31:04):
his ass off, and it's like, that's what it takes
to that. I think that's what I really want to
come out of out of this discussion. And if people
aren't going to look at it realistically and again, like
I don't presume that I have a lock on on
what the truth is. I mean, I need to be
humble enough to be open and learn, and I do.

(01:31:24):
And I'm talking to Tom, and I'm talking to all
kinds of people that have have you know, opened the
door for conversations, for respectful conversations about this. You know,
I think I think you know that's important. But but
if if if you're if you are giving into despondency
or you're just you're you're you're just not looking at
it right, then you're not going to make the decisions

(01:31:47):
that you the right decisions that you need to be
able to succeed. That's just that's just the way that
it is. Everybody from the boomer generation who works in
the music business used to be a player and they
woke up one day and they said, I'm not good enough.

(01:32:09):
There's a whole business based on giving people false hope.
All these sites online will get your gigs whatever. I
like to be the voice on the other side, because
you know, there's that Don Henley song. Doesn't happen to
be a great song, but I love the line it goes,
how bad do you want it? Not bad enough? You know?
You know I'll get you know all the time? Well, yeah, yeah,

(01:32:30):
you know Spotify payments. I am I supposed to get
pay for my car and pay for my house and
my kids. Who told you to buy a house, who
told you to have a car, who told you get married?
It's amazing how many how much people have sacrificed. Let
me move on a little bit though, In terms of
the revenue from streaming, how does it break down amongst
the varying services, Well, Spotify is a number one uh customer,

(01:32:52):
you know app Apple is close behind uh um, and
then uh and then you know Amazon's you know, come
way up. YouTube is a is a you know, is
a you know, pretty big contribute. I don't I should
have prepared for this, and I don't have the exact breakdown,
but I would say between uh, I mean Spotify is right,

(01:33:16):
it's just a little under thirty so whatever, like thirty
divided by you know, that's what they're you know, proportion
is at Apple's you know is not not that far behind.
So and the others are are are coming. I mean
no Amazon has done you know, they're working really hard
and you know that's coming up. So I would say, um, yeah,

(01:33:36):
I don't you know, yeah, I don't know. It's probably
not gonna be really compelling compelling listening to to to
hear me cipher on well we're taking I'm not going
to annail you on the percentages. Um, let me go
to the next thing, which is, okay, playlisting and access
to what degree is this hell take done by the
orchard into what degree is it done by you? And

(01:33:59):
how important relationships and how are important getting on playlists? Well,
I think this is a big a little you know, understand.
I mean again, I think that I think people are
much more conspiratorial than is the truth. I mean, the
fact is spot Spotify over the last few years has

(01:34:20):
has really, um, not completely walled off access to their people,
but um, they've made it a real priority to like
to to lessen than the influence of the industry. And
I think that's a wise thing to do. And I'm
I'm just speaking about Spotify. I mean Apple, I think
is the same way. I'm you know, I don't mean

(01:34:41):
to keep harping on that, but I guess because Spotify
has been so top of mind for me the last
couple of weeks. You know, it's easy for me to
go there. But I think that you know, we you know,
we advocate, Um, I feel like we're heard. Um. I
feel like if if they understand h sort of why

(01:35:02):
we think that an artist is is special, they'll they'll
give it a they'll give it a shot. Maybe, you know,
maybe not. Sometimes I'm surprised that we don't get support
on certain things, but you know, it's uh um. But
but I think a lot of thought goes into it.
I remember a conversation we were having I was having
with somebody there about Josh Ritter. This is a very
big learning moment for me. Um, Josh Ritter. You know,

(01:35:25):
has traditionally been really uh solid on in like the
kind of folk singer songwriter type of playlists. And I
was talking with somebody about Spotify about you know kind
of like, well, I'm you know, I'm surprised that we're
not getting more support from Josh Ritter and you know,
he's been a big deal and all that stuff. And
the person said, uh that I was speaking to you, said, well,
let me ask you a question. I mean, Josh, you know,

(01:35:46):
did this more of a rock approach? And there's drums on,
you know, on that record, and yet you guys submitted
for uh, you know this, you know, like my favorite
coffee house or whatever, and like there are we just
don't like things with drums. That's not the vibe and
all that stuff. So it was kind of putting it
back on us, like, you know, perhaps you didn't ask
for the right thing. And they don't have the space

(01:36:08):
too necessarily. I mean, they get inundated. It's like they're
there there, it's like they're getting shot with a fire
hose in terms of the number of artists they get
and the number of requests that they get. And so
whoever was programming that playlist, um the thing that we
submitted did not fit you know, that the you know,
the thing that we were asking for. And so even

(01:36:29):
though they you know, I feel like they love us,
they respect us, but like they they you know, we
didn't get what we were, you know, asking for, So
it's not it's not um. And and also we'll start
off with artists on on some of the lower playlists
and we will only as much as they like us.
We will only grow onto other playlists. If our music

(01:36:50):
works in that thing, they will then spread it. So
I mean, I feel like, you know, Spotify wants to
create and I'm Apple too. I'm sorry. I'm sorry for
my friends and other DSPs that I keep saying Spotify,
but you know, but they they want to create an
environment in these rooms where in these in these you know, playlists.
They want to create a sonic experience that works for

(01:37:11):
the that meets the expectation of that person. If we
if you're promoting music, no matter how much what they
like you or how much access they have, they're in
business to meet their customers expectations. If you're not meeting
their customers expectations, I don't care how much they like you,
You're not gonna it's not gonna work, you know, and
so um and I feel like I feel like that

(01:37:32):
that's the reality of the situation. So all this talk
about like you know, access and people scratching each other's back,
it was probably a little more that way, to be honest,
about four or five years ago. I don't feel like
it's really that way now or or as much, you know,
but do do do we Probably because of the quality
of our you know, of what we put out, in

(01:37:53):
the high success rate that we have, of of of
of the you know, of the of our music in
certain genres, might we get an opportun tunity uh that
you know, might they give us the benefit of the
doubt of an opportunity? Probably? And that's what our job
is is to you know, be great advocates for our
for our artists and try to you know, get them

(01:38:13):
on the path to success. But it doesn't you know,
it doesn't always work. But I feel like that's that
is a big point of misinformation as far as like
the the um you know, how how you know, corrupt
the you know, the process is. I feel like it's
it's it's pretty above board in my experience. Okay, let's
go to the other side of the fence. Let's assume

(01:38:35):
you get on the playlist. A couple of questions here,
how effective or playlists is opposed to songs just picked specifically,
And let's assume you're on the playlist, tell us about
them saying, Hey, people saved it, we're gonna move you
to other things. Or people didn't save it, we're gonna
drop it. Yeah, I mean, we get that kind of feedback,

(01:38:57):
you know, all the time. But one thing to that,
I feel like people like when when things get on
a playlist, there's a lot of passive listening that happens
on that playlist, you know, especially probably kind of the
more acoustic things and and all that stuff. I mean,
you know, we had one of our acts, I won't
you know, name names, but they were very popular because
um the playlist, because it just sort of fit what,

(01:39:19):
you know, the you know, what was happening. They didn't
have you know, they had a very low skip rate
because it it fit the you know, the atmosphere that
that the that the playlists were trying to foster. And
you know that we were getting you know, ten and
twenty million, twenty million streams on their music and you know,

(01:39:39):
they went out thinking like, oh, well, god, we're getting
all these streams. Then you know, we'll go out and
you know they and they overshot when they were touring.
You know, I went to a few shows that you
know where the room was a third full, you know,
because you know, the the a lot of that listening
is very passive, you know, you think, I mean, one

(01:40:01):
of the numbers that I care about the least is
the number of you know, when you say like somebody
has so many monthly listeners, that number needs virtually nothing
to me. Because if you're on a series of playlists
and you get any you know, any listening at all,
no matter how passive it is, you're going to show
up on there. And that doesn't mean that you've made
a fan. You know, it's it's a it's a you know,

(01:40:24):
it's an opportunity to be heard. It's an opportunity for revenue,
but it is not an opportunity. This is not you know,
when you're passive listening on on on, you know, Spotify,
the revelation of who the artist is and you know
why their music flows from them as inevitable, which is
when you're gonna make fans, and when you're going to
like build lifelong relationships with fans. That doesn't happen in that,

(01:40:49):
you know, in that in in a passive listening environment
like that. And so you know, it's great, it's a
it's a it's an introduction. But if you're not prepared
to then extrapolate that conversation and you know, with long
form narrative and and and and help fill in the gap,
then you're you're you're going to you're not going to
do well, You're not you're you know, it's like you're

(01:41:10):
not doing the full job. And but that's why we
don't you know, sign acts who we just think are like, oh,
you know, we'll get playlisted and you know, and and
if it cashes on then we're gonna do It's like
that is you know, playlisting is not artist development period. Okay,
so how many people at your company speak to the
DSPs and how frequently do you three? And all the time,

(01:41:32):
you know, we we haven't split out well, I guess,
I guess technically now i'd say yeah, three. I mean
because one of them we have somebody who specifically focuses
on video content and so that's you know, they probably
do more the heavy lifting when it comes to YouTube. Um,
you know, but the other two and you know, and
I also you know, I mean I speak to everybody,
you know, everywhere, and every now and again and again

(01:41:54):
I want to put my people in a position to
do their jobs and and and and but every now
and again, call somebody it's Spotify and just be like,
I think you're missing this one. I think you're missing
this one. Here's what's going on. And maybe I'll get
a result, and maybe I won't get a result, but um,
but you know, but but day in and day out,
we have three people that are are focused on that.
And to what degree can you get access to the

(01:42:16):
playlist creators themselves as opposed to people higher up the
food virtually none. I mean to be honest with you, like,
you know, like I don't know who programs my favorite
coffee house and that's a huge playlist for us, and
I don't think you know, I mean, it goes through
the pitch tool and and again like it's it's a
you know, it's it's a dictate from Spotify that they

(01:42:38):
you know, it's like they want their people listening to
the music and making judgments on the music. They want
to have less influence of because you know, it's like
people are in their ears all the time and spending
their time, they're not focusing on the music. And and
again like sixty thousand tracks a day, so people are
are are utilizing the pitch tool. I mean, it's just

(01:43:01):
it's it's it's an unbelievable task to try to get
through all of that music and make judgments that will
you know, help Spotify create you know, create those playlists
in those rooms. And so I think that's a wise
decision on their part. But that's you know, that's just
a fact of the matter. I mean, it's just not
a I mean, I think that's one of the biggest
things that people don't understand about you know, Apple, Spotify, ETCeteras,

(01:43:25):
is to the degree they'll take our input, um, just
as as anybody you know in any walk of the
business will take our input. But it's it's it's like,
you know, we hear you. Maybe it'll have an impact,
maybe it won't have an impact, but it's like it's
not it's not like, you know, we can just snap
our fingers. And that goes with the you know, with
the major labels too. I'm I'm you know, I'm certain
of it. They don't, you know, they're there and they're

(01:43:46):
advocating and doing their part, but it's not like they
just can snap their fingers and all of a sudden,
you know, get everything that they want. And I think
the proportion I mean I did in preparation for having
that conversation with Rolling Stone, I just picked a playlist
at random, and I picked New Boots because, um, you know,
for country, you kind of think, well, countries dominated by

(01:44:07):
major labels and all that stuff. And I looked and
went through I went through every single track and looked
at the copyright line of the acts. And some of
those acts may have labels that are really just them,
but they just got it. But but I didn't even
count those. But I counted twenty artists that the copyright
line was just their name, and so they that artists

(01:44:27):
uploaded themselves through tune cores and and they were given
a shot and and and that that music, like all
the music that I heard, was really good. And um,
so they don't have anybody that you know, they don't
have anybody calling Spotify and and uh trying to convince them.
Spotify made those decisions strictly on the quality of the music.

(01:44:49):
And and again like if you're an independent artist, like
I mean, you know, it's like it's important that you
know that you know, don't get despondent, make your best music,
get it there, Understand the state of play, Understand the environment.
But like you know, go take you know, shoot your shot.
And and you know, I feel like the DSPs have
have largely stepped up. I think it's much better now

(01:45:12):
for them than it was even five years ago. You know,
occasionally there's big promotions on the home page, etcetera. Is
that an opportunity that ever comes to you, like with
a Jason Isabel or is that really just for worldwide stars?
I think if it's like a like a full cross
platform you know type of thing, you know, they're probably
gonna they're gonna do certain things for the Beyonce's that

(01:45:34):
they're not maybe going to do with ours. But you know,
but we you know, but they're they're definitely open to
us doing things that are you know, major looks for
the audience that that artist has. You know, they've they've
done you know, you know, they've done some you know,
we've done some pretty you know, impactful promotions with you
know all the DSPs, and I think that um, you

(01:45:57):
know the uh you know the sort of the you know,
you know, the cover art, the you know sort of
the you know the picture and you know who's on
the Indigo playlist or on the on the you know,
Apple Country playlists or whatever like. You know that those
those things, you know, you know, really matter. I know
that's not the promotions that you're talking about, but um,

(01:46:17):
you know, I feel I feel that that we get,
we get the opportunities that are appropriate to us. And
what does the order? Obviously Orchard takes care of the
mechanics getting all these tunes to the varying places. What
might they do in terms of promotion, promotion and pitching
themselves for your acts? You know, I think they probably

(01:46:38):
as a you know, I think that they reinforce a
lot of what it is that we're talking about. So
they're they're a second voice, and we keep in constant
communication with them, and they keep in constant communication with us.
We're uh, you know, a very large you know label
in there, you know, in their hierarchy. So know they've

(01:47:00):
been they are very supportive of us, but we kind
of go in in in you know, in unison. But
we don't depend I mean that's just us. I mean
we're big enough that we can have the staff to
have the direct you know, conversations and the direct advocacy
and they know what it is we're doing and they
reinforce and and that's great. I think where the Orchard
UM is a great asset is for companies that are

(01:47:21):
perhaps a little smaller and can't afford the staff. You
know that we have to go in there and they go,
you know, uh, you know, fight the best fight and um,
you know, and again they're they're just I think they're
extraordinarily good at what they do. Okay, let's just get
a little history quickly so people know who you are.
You grew up where Lakeland, Florida, and your parents did
what for a living? My dad was an engineer, not

(01:47:45):
not a trained engineer, but you know, a mechanical engineer.
He helped design phosphate plants, uh and things like that.
My mom was an artist, um and a visual artist
and so she painted. She was actually the Tampa Museum
of Modern Arts, uh Modern Artist of the Year in nine.

(01:48:08):
But she did a lot, she did a lot of
work for UM. You know, she did do graphic design
for like newspapers, and and you know, like you know,
she would draw, you know, like when you had models, Uh,
you know, like she draw like, you know, kind of
pencil drawings for ads for department stores, for to help
you help the newspapers. So um. So, you know, I
grew up with a certain but music was never part

(01:48:29):
of the the equation. I don't really know quite what
happened that I became the music nut that I did,
because that was not necessarily a priority in our our
in our household. Okay, a couple of things. How many

(01:48:51):
kids in the family? What were you like in school?
Were you popular, not popular? Good or bad student? And
when you got into music, what kind of music were listening?
So first, how many kids in the family? Five? Initially
my mom my parents divorced when I was eleven. My
mom got remarried and I was the last of five children. Um.

(01:49:11):
And then when my mom got remarried seventeen years later,
she had my little brother, who's a wonderful guy's names Adam.
But you know, and you know, so but in the
in the you know, sort of the family that I
grew up with five children, and uh, um, I'm sorry,
what was that you asked another question. Well, it sounds
like you might have gotten lost in the shuffle. But

(01:49:33):
you know, at that time in one's life, it's basically
about going to school. Were you a good student, bad students?
I was a good student. I was a good student.
Uh you know, I graduated with you know, with with
with honors and and yeah, I was I was a
good student, and I was a very uh I was
a good kid, you know, but I wasn't super popular,
But nor was I like unpopped. I was just sort

(01:49:55):
of like there. I was just one of those people
that you know, I was just kind of there and
I had my group of friends, and you know, it
was it was you know, I played a lot of sports.
I played baseball. I'm still an enormous baseball fan. Played
on the high school tennis team, and you know, I
was like, I was a good athlete. I wasn't a
great athe I was a pretty good tennis player actually,

(01:50:15):
but uh, um, you know that was kind of my world.
And um, but you know music, I was a big
music fan very early. And you know how like young
guys are like, you know, if you're like a young dude,
you build a lot of yourself esteem around being an
expert in something. And sometimes it's cars and sometimes it's sports.
But music was my thing. Like it was you know,
like I was the kid that knew at ten years

(01:50:37):
old all the members of Black Sabbath and and you know,
every year for Christmas, I'd get the Rolling Stone Record
Guide or the Encyclopedia of Rock and and you know
that was social capital for me. And um. When I
was fifteen, uh, you know, I got a job working
at a pizza place, uh, bussing tables. And in that
plaza was a little, you know, a store that was

(01:50:58):
part of a four store chain called Carousel Records. And
I would take my my forty three dollar check you
know that I made for for busting table piece of restaurant.
I'd cash it at the record store at Carousel, and
I basically spin. I'd save ten bucks for gas from
my moped to get me back and forth to work.
I'd spend everything else on records and um, and I

(01:51:18):
was just consumed by it. And I had a routine
where every I think things like on Thursday, Rolling Stone
would come out, and so every Thursday I would buy
Rolling Stone and I would take buy Rolling a Rolling
Stone and a knee high Peach soda. I love knee
High Peach still do. And uh, and I go home
and I would devour Rolling Stone and read it cover

(01:51:39):
to cover and and some of the some of the
formation of my musical tastes, like I'll tell you to
two two artists that I now work with, and I'm
still pinching myself and I remember, I remember this vis
really like going to you know, reading the reviews for
Steve Winwood Arc of a Diver and Ricky Lee Jones
Pirates and they got five star reviews. And I got

(01:52:00):
on my moped and I went and I bought those
records and I listened to him, and I just, Um,
the fact that I now get to work with both
of those artists is it's a little mind blowing to me.
And uh, but I I so. Then when I was fifteen,
during Christmas of the year, um, I was you know
the store manager. Her name was Laura Harold, and you know,

(01:52:22):
we developed a friendship because I was in there all
the time. It was very tiny store, and she was
complaining that her person that was gonna you know it
was interviewing for for Christmas help didn't show up for
the interview, and I was like, well, do I get
a discount if I work here? And she was like,
well for the time you work here, sure, and and

(01:52:42):
so I was like, well, if you'll have me, I'll
do it. And that's how I got my start in
the music business. And then after Christmas, I was expecting
to be you know, let go and and and all that.
But the person who was there, her full time person.
They're left and so I mean I was still in
high school, but like I arranged my schedule so like
I was like after school, I went straight to the

(01:53:05):
record store and I would work weekends, but I became
the you know, the full time person there. And Laura
was a huge influence on me in terms of my music.
She was a huge David David Bowie fan and a
huge Kate Bush fan and um, and she really opened
me up to all kinds of music that you know,
if you're a fifteen year old kid, you know, it's like,

(01:53:25):
I mean I still love some of those bands, but
you know, you listen to radio, it was Ario Speedwagon
and things like that, and you know, and I got
all kinds of love for for you know, Journey and
are Speedwagon all that but it really opened me up
to a wider variety of music. And I just I
would just spend everything that I made on records, you know,
I just I would. I had a little basket on
the back of my moped and I'd strapped my albums

(01:53:47):
in and I'd go home and I just you know, devoured.
I've just always been a huge, you know, music fan.
And then you know, I went to work for Specs
when Carousel closed down, and I just I did record
retail till I was twenty one. Okay, so you graduated
my school, you were going to college at that point. Yeah,
Well I went to the Community Polk Community College in
in winter Haven, but I when I was eighteen, I graduated,

(01:54:10):
uh like basically less than a month after my seventeenth birthday.
Um and um. So I went to community college. But
I I didn't know what a music business was, but
I knew that it wasn't in Lakeland, Florida, and so
I made the decision to move to Atlanta because whatever
the music business was, well, I actually had a point

(01:54:30):
of access there. There was a guy named Doug Wiley
who was a salesperson for what was Important and that
that that then became read and like he would sell
like I would actually buy some and stuff. I was
fifteen years old and like buying you know records. Laurel
let me, you know, do that. And so he was like, uh,
the cool guy that lived in the big city that

(01:54:52):
like worked with all these you know, like I would
talk to about all these cool records and so, um,
you know, I moved up to Atlanta. I got a
job working at Record Bar. Um I was living in
an apartment. I remember this. It was three d nine
dollars a month. And what year we am, uh nineteen
eighty uh four or three three maybe, and uh, but

(01:55:19):
I lived in an apartment. It was three dollars a month.
And I remember that because um, I was so poor
that I uh, you know basically that it was a
two bedroom apartment. And the deal we made was the
two guys paid a hundred and fifty dollars and they
got the bedrooms and I paid ninety dollars and slept
on the couch. But but it gave me a way

(01:55:39):
to be around it all. And then you know, I
was working at Record Bar and Lennox and that was
at the time when you know, there was Billboard report
you know that was you know, stores would report to Billboard,
and I was. I wound up, you know, work at
the store and became the singles buyer. So I was
doing the singles Billboard charts, so that by access to
label people, as you could guess, was expanded greatly. And

(01:56:02):
so I just kind of, you know, politely harangued people
about like getting a job at a label, and uh,
I wound up starting at A and M Records as
as a seventy five dollar a week in turn. And
that was at the time when they were you know,
it was like R C, A Arista, and A and M.
We're all together in a distribution group. And I loved
my time at A and M. Karen Glauber, I worked

(01:56:25):
under Karen Glauber, was one of Karen's kids, and it
was a great start. But then, you know, uh, and
everything at A and M. They were like the first
time I ever saw an Apple computer was at A
and M. They always drank the best wine and all
this stuff. But uh, you know, I went down the
hall and I'd see the airs to people and they
had like, you know dent you know, dented file cabinets,

(01:56:48):
and I don't know if you know Linda Alter, if
you knew her, legendary promotion person. And they were like
yelling at people and tearing their hair out, but they
were breaking records like crazy. And I was like, I
want to go where it's kind of like. And so
they hired me, uh Candy uh Barry uh. Candice Berry,
who eventually went on to do sales at Interscope, you know,

(01:57:11):
hired me as as as the basically the office assistant.
I was low man on the totem pole. I made
two hundred dollars of weeks therefore ten thousand, four hundred dollars,
which for me was actually a pay raise. And uh
and then I just I you know, like it was
right when the Whitney Houston record came out, and it
was like Kenny g and Tony Braxton. So I was
around all of that and and so you know, operating

(01:57:32):
in that environment, I really learned you know a lot
and and uh and even though I was like many
many many levels below Clive Davis, um, you know, I was,
I was involved enough to you know, one thing that
one thing about Clive that I really appreciated was his
attention to detail. It was very important, Like he knew
what was going on with the Deborah Cox record in Providence,

(01:57:54):
and if the right things weren't happening, then he it
was just like go fix it, you know. And his
level to detail and breaking artists, it was. It was
a great lesson and something I've carried, you know, with me.
But that was sort of like how, you know, how
I became, you know, how I got my label gig
and then I you know, I spent the next fifteen years,
you know, twelve of the fifteen years at Arista, both

(01:58:15):
in the Pop in the in the Country division. You know,
I had a couple other gigs along the way, but um,
but the majority the way these were there, these were
promotion or sales, sales. It was always on the sales
and retail into things and and so. And then I
worked for the Nashville division under Tim Dubos and Mike Dungan,
and you know that was a great object lesson too,

(01:58:35):
because you know, the level of performance was so high
in our batting average was so high. But they were
very kind and loving people. You know, I won't name names,
but you know when I worked for Arista and the
Pop division, I was up and I got promoted up
to the New York office, and it was kind of
a rough environment and there were times where I was like,
you know, I'm not sure that I'm you know, you know,

(01:58:58):
I was like, I'm not sure that I want to
be or around. Uh. You know. It was just a
very tough environment. And not that I'm not a tough person,
but it was just, you know, I think there was
you know, there was I think the level of drug use,
I think the level of you know, it's just it
was just not it was it was for a small
town guy from the South, it was it was. It
was a tough adjustment. But you know, but like I

(01:59:19):
went to work for Nashville and you know, the just
I mean we were breaking artists and Tim do Waugh
was a loving person. I remember the first time that
I met him. It was at backstage before I started.
They had hired me but I hadn't started yet, and
Tim said to me before I left, you know, because
we were wrapping up, we're having a conversation and and

(01:59:41):
he said, well, Mr, welcome to the family. And then
he poked me in the chest and he goes and
I want you to remember this is a family. And
he was basically putting me on notice that like, you know,
you're expected to comport yourself with you know, with loving kindness,
even even though he didn't use those terms. And that
was the way that they acted it. But but like

(02:00:01):
it didn't, it didn't, they didn't let up. It wasn't
like it. You know, love wasn't uh you know, it wasn't.
It wasn't a sign of weakness, you know. I mean
one of my favorite books of all time is Martin
Luther King's Strength to Love For and I recommended to
everybody because you know, love is you know, it gave
me the intellectual framework to know that, you know, love

(02:00:25):
is is actually strength. It's not it's not a weakness.
So what is your last job and how does it
in working for the labels? I worked at Giant Records. Uh.
I was the head of sales with uh, you know,
with uh you know, for for Giants Nashville division. Um,
you know, I found my way out of Arista, you
know when they you know, when when they merged uh

(02:00:48):
with our ci A and they just didn't need duplicate
sales staff. So you know, I respect Joe Gilanni, you know, immensely,
but it's just you know, it's a business decision. It
was nothing, no disrespect or anything like that to me.
And and but uh, but so I wound up running
giants sales and marketing division. But it was right as
I mean, basically, I set my bags down, and it

(02:01:08):
was like, well, you know, you know, I'm hearing rumors
that Irving is going to sell the company, and so
I was like, oh boy, here we go again. And
so um so when I left there, I was just like,
do I want to like hop back on this treadmill again?
It seemed like the trend was really going towards people
getting laid off and downsizing because we were starting the
sort of inevitable decline at you know, with the post

(02:01:29):
c D you know boom we were, you know, revenues
were dropping and people were seeking efficiencies. And I thought
very hard about what I wanted to do and how
I was going to respond to that. And I thought, well,
if I go to some small label that's only going
to have like one or two artists and they're paying
me seventy five thousand dollars a year, um, like what

(02:01:51):
am I gonna? I mean, like, I do everything that
I could think of for that with those one or
two artists, but I'd run out of things pretty quick.
And and it's not and my even my presence, there
is an inefficiency that will help, uh make the country,
the company less viable. So rather than you know, so
I decided and I started this company with a partner,
deb Markland, who I worked with at Ariston, And the

(02:02:12):
general idea was, rather than get somebody to you know,
pay me or us, uh, you know, seventy five dollars,
let's get ten people to hire us for seventy. That
way we'll be busy all the time. It will be
safer for us because one or two things go away,
we still got income. But also the fact that we're
doing this makes all of those entities more viable. And

(02:02:33):
and you know, so that's part of my sort of
business orientation, thinking about you know, sort of like you know,
how can things be done in a sustainable fashion? And
so you know, that's how we started. And we started
just as a straight consultancy. But then you know, Ken Antonelli,
who has been so important in my professional life during
in so many ways. But he came to me and

(02:02:55):
was like, man, we love the work you do. You
prepare our sales reps, to go in and they know
what they're talking king about. So we want you to
bring everything to us, you know, we want you to
do all your work through us. And it was like, well,
and this was a year before Spotify, I mean before
iTunes started, So if you didn't have distribution, you were
you know, you were screwed. And so I I but
I understood stood that, like access to distribution was an

(02:03:18):
existential issue, and so what I said to him was like, Okay,
well let's do like a kind of an aggregator thing.
You signed me. I'll take the financial I'll take the
risk of the responsibility, but like, let me if if
I can bestow distribution on a client, then that gives
me more um importance to them. And so so that's

(02:03:41):
the way we set everything up. And that's what I've
been doing for the last twenty years. Kenny was running
red which morphed into the orchard. That's how that relationship. Yes, okay,
are you married, Yes, have any children? No? You do
not have a children. No children. I've never been able
to convince anybody how many times you've been married three.

(02:04:02):
Nobody likes a quitter. When you started this business twenty
years ago, were you married to the president. Why for
that was before this No, actually, well that's an interesting story.
When I started this business. Um. Uh actually, I'm glad
you're bringing this up because it gives me an opportunity
to talk about Nancy Quinn, who is the number two
person in our company. Um, Nancy, Um, we were married

(02:04:26):
at the time. Shortly after the company started, we became
not married and um, and you know, we took a
couple of years to kind of heal up. But you know,
I've met Nancy through worked. I mean she worked for
BMG Distribution. I worked for Arista and we were like
colleagues and friends before we got romantically involved. And you know,

(02:04:48):
then when you know, and after a little bit of
time to heal up, all that I needed as the
company was growing, um, you know, and she had found
her way out of the company or out of the
of the position and that she was in before. I mean,
she's one of the most She's one of the hardest working,
just down to earth, like solid record people, you know.

(02:05:09):
You know. So I was like, you know, it's like, well, life,
I hope I'm making a healthy decision here, but like
she's one of the best people that I know, and
so we started working together again. And um and she
is she's she's she's the number two person in this company.
And um and she's she's the she's the one that
really helps promote structure and organization. I mean, I'm you know,

(02:05:34):
I'm a good business person. I am actually reasonably organized.
But I'm also my fascination is with you know, artists
and narrative and building relationships and talking about this. Nancy
is the one that makes sure that all the contracts
get signed. You know, She's the one that helps me
think through the structure of the company. And and and
it's just you know, so um so it's yeah, so

(02:05:57):
Nancy was, um, you know, she was, you know, my
my second wife. But also she's um, you know, still
in my life and in an integral part of everything
we do at thirty Tigers. That begs the question the
third wife. Um, well, I did an album. Uh uh
you know, I did an album in two thousand four

(02:06:20):
along with uh two uh you know partners in crime,
Steve Fishel and Tamra Saviano. Um. I had this idea
about doing an album of Stephen Foster's music, or doing
an album of Stephen Foster's music. For those of you
who don't know Stephen Foster's you know, I think one
of the five most important people in in American musical history.

(02:06:41):
He was the first person to be a famous songwriter.
And he um he did um he wrote, Oh Susannah
Camptown Races, a dream of Genie with the light brown hair,
just like a multitude of songs that are in the
in the in the American Canon of song songs. But
he um. He became famous his early you know hits

(02:07:06):
Oh Susannah and um uh. And I'm getting around to
Judith in a second. But I promised, but the the
but I was at the time I was attending when
I went back to school to do the pre law thing,
I was attended a historically black university. So I was
in Africana studies class, and I was thinking about, you know,

(02:07:26):
we're talking about white appropriation of black culture. And I
grew up in Florida where you know our state song
with Swansee River and we I grew up singing out
of a Stephen Foster songbook when I was in pre
K and all that, and so um, he kind of
had an outsized um, you know place in my musical
uh consciousness but he um. But it was interesting because

(02:07:48):
he his first hit songs were basically songs that were
written for the minstrel stage. Oh Susanna and Count Camptown Residute,
his first two famous songs, which basically minstrel ry was
was essentially white whites appropriating black culture, you know then,
and so I got the idea of and and also
Stephen Foster sort of lost um he became he went

(02:08:10):
got consigned to the back burner of public consciousness in
the seventies with the advent of a more um uh
you know, when when we were more became more conscious
about race issues. And you know, he would use the
N word and songs and he would use the word
Darkian songs. And so it occurred to me that his
whole arc of of you know, rising into the public

(02:08:33):
consciousness and then fading from it was all bracketed by race.
And I just felt compelled to tell that story. And
I'd never I mean, all I did was sell, you know,
like I said, we sell records to Walmart. I've never
tried to do anything like this before. But I wanted
to tell that story. And and so I, you know,
with the help of Like I said, Stephen Tamer, we
you know, we told that story. And then Tamer was

(02:08:55):
friends with with with Judith and and uh and suggested
her as an artist on the record. So we met
through she was a she's a recovering singer songwriter. Uh
and uh so she she was on on that record
and we met through that. How many employees at thirty Tigers. Uh,

(02:09:16):
I own the majority of it, but we have um
um I own about eighty percent of it, and then
the other is split between present and former employees and
uh um and uh. Well and also you know the

(02:09:38):
you know the I don't know if you ever knew
Bob Goldstone did you ever know him? Okay, he was
a legendary sales guy and everything he was. We lost
him unfortunately in a in a bicycling accident in um
and his his widow owns a you know his you
know his his portion of it and uh and uh
you know, with the success of the company, one of

(02:09:59):
my favorite things is is knowing that his work and
his contribution sustains or does the sustain I mean contributes
to sustaining his family, and that makes me feel fantastic.
He was a lovely guy, Why thirty tigers? Where's the
name come from? Well? I back in so we used
to be called Emergent Music Marketing. Um, I didn't love

(02:10:22):
the name, but it was it was our name. And
we got a cease and desist order. There used to
be a label called Emergent with an Eye and uh.
They sent us a cease and desist letter. As we
became more label like and we were distributing and things
like that, and my attorney called me and said, well,
we got this thing, and so you have two choices.
Either we can you can pay me a lot of

(02:10:43):
money to fight this and we'll lose, or you can
give up now. And so I was like give up now. Uh.
And then and and so we were trying to come
you know, we had to come up with another, another
name and do it pretty quickly. And at the time,
now this was back when Nashville was solely this is
before the Black Keys got here and Jack White got here.
So we were strictly like a a country in Christian
music town and that was about it. So there's anything

(02:11:05):
off the beaten path, I'd get the call. And so
an attorney called me and wanted there was an opera
singer that she was working with that needed a business
plan written for a Doctor Seuss opera, and uh, so
I was all immersed at the at the very moment
in the world of Dr Seuss, and he uh had
a book called I Can Lick thirty Tigers Today, and

(02:11:25):
I thought, I don't know, it just popped into my head,
like and I while checking with my trademark attorney to
make sure I wasn't going to get sued by the
Sieus estate, but you know, I thought, being thirty tigers,
that sounds like mysterious and powerful and uh and there
was some dissension in some of the older people in
the company were like, I don't know, that feels kind
of weird. But at the time, we were working right
above Grimes, and I went downtown or downstairs and asked

(02:11:48):
all the young people that worked at Grimes, and I
was like, what do you think of that name? And
they were like, oh, we love it. And I was like, okay,
funk it, We're going with that. So how we became
thirty Tigers? You know? So I and I still love
the name, so okay, just a couple more questions. How
many acts on thirty Tigers roster? At this point hard
to say. Um, you know, most artists, I mean we

(02:12:10):
we put out about fifty records a year, assuming that
there's a uh you know, most artists are working on
a two year album cycle. Um, you know, I would
say that the number is probably in and around a hundred.
But again, like you know, artists aren't. It's kind of
like a record by record type of thing. I mean,
if if you know they're they're not locked into deal.

(02:12:33):
So if somebody is gonna you know, feels like something
else is better, we may or may you know, we
may or may not know whether or not they're gonna
do it until they do it. But um, I would
say my best guest is probably around a hundred. Okay,
final question. Jason Isabel put out an album at the
beginning of the pandemic when everybody was locked up at home.

(02:12:54):
There was a lot of ink on it, you know,
in terms of making the record. Convention wisdom is that
it underperformed commercially and people said it wasn't a good
time because he couldn't go out and promote it. Was
that the case that really you need the road component
and all those other things to have a d percent

(02:13:15):
success or is that a vision that's incorrect now, I mean,
it sure helps, and he's such a compelling you know,
live act UM. But I also think Jason under you know,
he understood that. I mean I remember this being a
point of conversation at the time. He understood that, you know,
kind of what he was up against. UM. But he's

(02:13:38):
done well enough in his career that the motivations were
for him were to UM have music that would be
uh um sort of a psychic sav to his fans.
And also, UM, we did a lot of work in
terms of trying to um do things with indie retail.
I mean, if you remember, we released that out a

(02:14:00):
week early to indie retail, and we talked to it
to our DSP partners and explained, you know, the situations
is no disrespect to you guys, but you know this
is important to you know, Jason to be able to
do this, and we we didn't hear. I mean, they
we had nothing but their support and understanding. And so UM,
I don't think that you know the motivations for Jason

(02:14:22):
at that point. I mean, sure, I mean, everybody wants
their record to do as well as they possibly can.
But I think he he and his incredibly great manager,
Tracy Thomas, understood the that the you know, that they
were wandering into some you know, difficulties when it came
to know marketing and the ultimate success of the record,
but chose to move forward anyways because Jason's you know,

(02:14:44):
he's doing great. He's a very successful artist, and so
he could make that choice. Okay, David, I think we've
come to the end of the feeling we've known. You're
quite the rack and tour and very informative and insightful
in terms of the business. I want to thank you
so much for doing this. Well, I want to thank
you right back because I've enjoyed this thoroughly and um
and again you this isn't the first time that you know,

(02:15:06):
when I've expressed myself that you've amplified, you know, my
views to the world. And I really appreciate it. And
and also I think that again, like I really, um,
you know, I feel like you're a conduit for I
learned a lot from listening, especially the podcasts. I mean,
I love your newsletter, but the podcasts and and uh,
you know, hearing hearing what some of the you know,

(02:15:28):
the titans of industry or the you know, artists that
you know that participate, you know their viewpoints. I mean,
I just learned so much. So I I hope, uh
that I'm paying that forward to some people and if
they can you know, um, you know, learn anything from
my experience, then that it would make me feel great.
But I've I've thoroughly enjoyed the conversation, so thank you
so much for having me. Well, you definitely paid it

(02:15:50):
for There's a lot of stuff here that even people
deep in the business doesn't know, so I want to
thank you again. Until next time. This is bald left
sense Bo

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