Dennis Arfa

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the pod Least That's Podcast.
My guest today the CEO of Artist Meet International Agent
Dennis Alfan. Dennis, good to have you on the podcast
and nice to be a Okay, we were talking on
the phone and you stay to listening to the Repeto
podcast and he was talking about agents and you wanted

(00:29):
to give your perspective on what he had to say,
So why don't you let it ripped there? Well, I
thought Michael had a lot of very intelligent and wise
things that he said. Um, but the one factor that
I thought should be addressed was how the agency game
is affected by the buying game of major touring companies.

(00:52):
And a lot of times the one say an artist
is repped by a Live Nation a G A lot
of the artists don't see the need to have to
pay the same commission anymore because a lot of the
services that they provide are now provided by the promoter.
So the A game, the A list, A lot of

(01:15):
agencies have been affected by this and therefore it's very
hard for them to maintain that commission level. Therefore, the
A game is very much threatened by um, you know
the big bucks that the major promoters pay out. Okay,
you're the agent from Metallica. Metallica made an overall deal

(01:37):
with Live Nation on their last big tour. As the agent,
did you still commission Metallica or you squeezed out? Yes,
we still and we still have a relationship, but our
our relationship was directly affected by their relationship with Metallica.
Just to be very clear, you're talking about your financial relationship. Yes,

(01:57):
that's all the financial relationship. Okay, So when someone makes
an overall deal with a G or Live Nation, what
services does the agent still provide? Well, you know, it
all depends on the agent or the agency I mean
some agents. I mean sometimes the agent just gets a

(02:20):
free ride. I mean, may do the routing, may participate
in putting the packages together, may have overall marketing viewpoints.
But um, many times, um, you know. But but certainly
the agent isn't going out there and most of the
time making the building deals, the agent isn't going out there.

(02:41):
And you know, and um, basically a lot of the
agency skills are negated by Live Nations or a G. Okay,
just in terms of your experience, not only your own agency.
When people make the overall touring deals with a big

(03:02):
corporate entity to most of them keep the regent or
most squeeze their agent out. I mean sometimes sometimes the
agent gets squeezed out. Sometimes the agent gets you know,
um has a limited roles. Sometimes the agent tries to
act like they're very involved a lot of times. Uh hey,

(03:24):
there are there are promoters within Live Nation who go
to their touring their national touring partners to buy acts locally,
not necessarily to the agents. I mean, there are promoters
who actually just buy within the their own their own
promotion company to be able to secure acts. Okay, just

(03:45):
to be clear, every level of act or just the superstars.
Uh well, I would say, uh that can exist for
every level of an act, but superstars certainly uh are
numero uno. Okay, let's let's just assume whether you're getting
paid or not, the Live Nation or age is promoting

(04:09):
the tour. Do you think that they do as good
a job as what an independent agent would do making deals? Well,
let me put it here this way. Most agents are
booking agents. And if I was managing a superstar band
that could sell out basically every arena or stadium, I

(04:33):
would probably not need the agent because most most promoters
are more fluent and more educated about what's inside a
deal than an agent. Many of the agents is uh,
many of the agencies are in a volume business. They
don't have the time to be into all of this detail.

(04:55):
They don't have the time to focus on all the
nuances that really go inside a deal. So if I
was a manager and I had a superstar act, there's
very few agents in the world that can actually, um
know where all the bodies are buried in all the
deals you can count on one hand and not only

(05:18):
know about it in America, but Europe, Australia, around the world.
There's very few agents you can count on one hand
that booked the world. Okay, so let's assume you can
you do a better job than the big corporate entay,
and what do you do differently? Well, I can certainly, um,

(05:40):
I have the ability to do as well um as anybody.
I mean, you know, earlier in my career, I remember
one time I had a superstar film agent in the
dressing room of one of my artists and he says, oh,
I'm not hitting on the artists money. And it became
my goal to never have anybody a promoter. Anybody can say,

(06:03):
I can get you more money for your artists than
you can. So I made it my business to become
an expert in the touring nuances. And then you deals
and all the ancilliaries. There's the gross and then there's
the gross gross, and I become a student of that game.
And I you know, so when we have deals with

(06:27):
some of our artists, Um, if you can do better
than me, then you're losing money. Okay, let's just say
in a perfect world, the band is offered a deal
by a major entity, or they could go market by
market using you. Which would way would you say to

(06:48):
go me? Because because I have an overview of the
whole world. Again, there's only a very few. There's a
few promoters that have an overview, but very few have
an overview of the whole world. And so I would um,
and you know, and then sometimes it depends on what

(07:09):
flavor ice cream you like. Some like vanilla, so I'm
like chocolate. You may like somebody else as opposed to me.
You may like somebody else's personality, but at least we
can compete on an equal playing field. And there aren't
many that compete on that playing that that that elite
playing field, um that you can. You know that that

(07:30):
that most can compete with, and I think there's very
few agents and there's very few promoters on that level. Okay. Now,
if you're the act, Live Nation is writing you a check,
it's their obligation to sell the tickets. Whereas if you
go market by market, anything could happen. Okay, you could

(07:50):
have a cancelation, you could have a COVID for some reason,
sales or weak. So if you're saying, hey, I'm gonna
sell by market by market, someone else might say, yeah,
if I take the lups some I'm guaranteed. I'm not
quite clear what you're saying. I'm trying to say is
let's say I'm an act and I'm going to do
a thirty day tour and Live Nation offers me X

(08:11):
They're gonna pay me that, irrelevant of how many tickets
are sold. Okay, they're guaranteeing me that. Whereas if I
go market by market. Are you saying that you can
equal that guarantee? Sure, no problem. Sure, Hey I can
sell it to Live Nation or a g okay and

(08:34):
be the one still overseeing what's going on, and I
still listen. I live with Live Nation and a G
all the time. They're my partners and and and and
many of my deals. But it's but the quarterbacking comes
here from here, not necessarily from them. I may be

(08:55):
directing how my artists should be presented, not having them
tell me how my audis should be presented. So I
am directing the game and were yeah, using um, you
know their strengths and and and and so um. That's
the difference is I can work with them, except I'm

(09:15):
quarterbacking as opposed to them quarterbacking me. Okay, a couple
of questions. Let's just assume go back to that thirty
state thirty day tour in America. Live Nature Age will
say I'm writing you a check for X. Let's say
you're saying the act, don't take that check. I'm gonna
go to independence market by market. Okay, assuming you do that.

(09:39):
If you add up all the guarantees, will those equal
the Live Nation guarantee. It doesn't have to be either
or it doesn't have to be independence. You can have
the same result, and you can you know, working with
Live Nation or independence or a e G or um.
You know you can have that same result without having

(10:02):
to give up control. So that's what I'm talking about
is control there your partner, and it takes a village,
but you don't have to give up control, as opposed
to somebody else buying the tour and they took control.
They're determining which Marcus to play, They're determining what the

(10:22):
prices should be. They may consult you, but with me,
it's tries to try to be it's the other way around.
I'm quarterbacking. Okay, let me try to drive to a
very small point here. Let's say you're you know, Pink
Floyd led Zeppelin, and you're gonna get back together where
you think you're you know, you should go clean absolutely

(10:44):
everywhere all over the world. Okay, can you make more
money making individual deals than you can if you take
the lump sum? You can? You know? Um you know.
When uh the Metallica deal went down, I was asked

(11:05):
to review the deal and tell and tell the management
whether the numbers were right? With these the right numbers
that we're getting, Are we getting what an act of
superstar caliber of Metallica? Are we making those kind of dollars?

(11:28):
And the answer was yes. But I could answer the question, Okay,
if you're making an overall deal, but I can break that.
I can break that down individually too, you know. So
when I see the markets in the cities and I
see what all the deals are, I then under I
can take a look at it and say, yes, you
are making the maximum out of these cities and out

(11:50):
of these venues, or you're not. Okay if you're making
an overall deal. Generally speaking, whether and there's two categories,
you and the full of other people who understand everything.
Are you leaving money on the table to have a
guaranteed sum. I think there's a risk reward. I think

(12:10):
you know, I mean I I don't think of it.
Here's what I'm aware. If I'm leaving something on the table,
I'm aware of what I left on the table, and
I'm aware of what everybody's making. So pending on what
your risk is to me has a lot to do
with what your reward should be if you if it is.
There are promoters that will offer artists and no guarantee,

(12:33):
and they basically throw every side back into the deal
that they're gonna make, but they're not taking they're not
taking much of a risk except paying the venue. Course. Now,
somebody who's guaranteeing somebody four or five million dollars a
night or whatever the number is. That's taken a risk,
so they may you may let them, you know, um
take a greater a greater profit, so you really So

(12:57):
that's that's up to the the the artist, the manager,
the you know, the agent who has ever involved to
make that decision. But at least you need to have
the knowledge of what the whole picture looks like it
before you can decide what's the fair game to play. Okay,
you talk about this knowledge and a handful of people
who have it. As we go forward, no one's gonna

(13:19):
live forever. Is this going to be a lost art
or will there be new people with this knowledge? Are
we talking about people are just agents or managers are promoters? Well,
we're talking about people who don't work for the big corporation,
whether it be individual agents or individual managers. I listen,
it's a skill set um that one can develop. And

(13:40):
and you know, if if you in my opinion, and
there are people who maintain artists without for that are
superstars and they have a relationship and make money with
people for a long time without having the skill set.
I just think, um, having The skill set doesn't guarantee
you maintain or you even attract new relationships, but I

(14:02):
know that it's it's a very important tool in my
box to be able to be successful in moving forward.
Is having the skill set? Um, you know, my agents,
I try to share information and for them to develop
the skill set. And I've been fortunate. I've had some
superstar racks that I've needed to have the skill set
to be able to maintain my relationships. Okay, you talk

(14:24):
about this skill set, tell me a couple of things
you learned where people need to know. Well, the the
skill set is, as I said, is at least certainly
in the skill set. From a financial point of view,
I think there's multiple skill sets. I think you as
an agent have to have a real sense of being
a promoter. You have to understand how you want your

(14:50):
artists and how that your artist wants to be represented
in the world. So I think the I think the
skill set is having a promoter a mentality. I think
a skill set is understanding the markets, understanding the difference
between Atlanta and San Juan, Puerto Rico and San Francisco,
and and and and understanding that and understanding the climate

(15:13):
changes in different markets throughout the world. And then it's
developing a skill set. I mean, if you have a
band that can sell out places, um, everywhere in the
country or or the world, you you need to develop
a skill set to know the maximum dollars that you
can make. Now, there are countries and there are places

(15:35):
you're never gonna see what's really behind, what really exists
in some of these kinds, some of these venues. And
if that's the case, the only thing I can do
is is really try to secure as much money from
whoever I'm selling the day to, whether it be the
venue or a local promoter. But I don't know. I
think the art of that skill set to some degree

(15:56):
has been lost, certainly in the big agency because a
lot of them have territories. A lot of them, Um,
you know, the the requirements are different. But I just
feel that as UH as an agent, as a representative
of an artist, you need to know, um, you need

(16:19):
to have this information so that they can be able
to get the most from from you. Otherwise they can
go somewhere else. Okay, what are some of the markets
where you really don't know what's going on with the money.
One of the markets I think, you know, it could
be China. I mean, Japanese is not necessarily easy to

(16:40):
go to Japan and you know, try to see Japanese
backup and know what the what what the actual costs are. Um,
you know, I'm more South America could be relatively difficult sometimes. Okay,
you talk about being able to see all the costs.
I have sat with the promoter with two sets of books,

(17:01):
but they're showing the act in their real net do
they actually you have to guess what's going on in
their books. How much information are you actually getting and
how you're getting it? Uh I listen, there's no there's
not any more sequence anymore in terms of all the
ancillary where where all the money is, Because if you

(17:21):
go into a venue, I mean, you know, there's the
peanuts and the popcorn, and the facility fees and the
ticketing rebates and the and the sweet tickets and the
unmanifested seats and the parking and these are all the
things you calculate, and everybody has has different economics in
their particular facility. But uh so this is there's there's

(17:44):
a lot of information. I mean again, you there's the
gross and then there's the gross gross. I mean I
have to actually played buildings, gotten a hundred percent of
the gross, you have to tax and have had the
venue make hundreds of thousands of dollars. Just for the uninitiated,
where did they make that money? Uh? Ticketing rebates, UH,

(18:08):
facility fee, UH, merchandise UM, suits, parking UM. Trying to
think what else? Uh you know I might have what
in general? That's that's that's kind of the uh the base. Okay,

(18:32):
let's go back to when we start to have consolidation
in retrospect? Was consolidation in touring concert promotion good or
bad for you? In the acts? I'm not talking about
the deals where the making overall deals, just in general
in terms of money and how the businesses run. Well.
It went from a millionaires business to a billionaires business

(18:52):
is what really changed. It existed before it existed with
concerts West and Jerry Wine troub and so you know
when Jerry weintraud basically in concerts where they had a
tremendous domination and of superstars and and a list artists.
So basically they were doing it. You know, prior they
had the Zeppelins and the the b g s and

(19:16):
you know, all the Elvis Presley, all the A list.
So it really just continued and it was just a
buy up of a lot of the major promoters. But
it went from a millionaire business to a billionaire business.
And and and now Concerts West and Jerry Winintroud have
been replaced by Live Nation and a g well need

(19:38):
Let's say Live Nation is a company that worth it
is worth billions public company, but has the money trickled
down to the acts and to you? Yes? And you
attribute that too. I think that Live Nation to maintain
their domination, has to pay the acts because they need

(19:59):
they they need the inventory to feed all their um
you know, their sponsorships that they need to feel to
feed their business. And I think they're very good at
um uh yeah, at taking care of the artists that
they that they acquire and represent. Okay, staying with sponsorship
just by owning or controlling as much as Live Nation

(20:21):
does they make these overall sponsorship deals. Do you just
have to shrug and leave that money with them or
with a superstar? Do you try to get into some
of that money? Well, again, you know, if there's a
million dollars on the table, and you know where there's
a million two with all their money, you make your
your deal with how much of that million two can

(20:43):
you get? You know, It's like they don't necessarily try
to hide what they make. They but so that's your
negotiation with them. It's like anybody it's say, hey, this
is we're making a million to a night. You know,
that's your negotiation you with them? How much of a
million two is yours? What's your negotiation style? Some people

(21:05):
are screamers, some people who are quiet. What do you
do well? You know you're listen. Competition, you know, competition
is the best. I'm not a I'm not a screamer.
Was probably more of a screamer in my early days.
I'm not a screamer or a calculator, uh, trying to
calculate or what's the best strategy and how I can

(21:27):
make the maximum dollars. I also want wants to promoter.
I want them to make money. It takes a vility.
Everyone's gotta win, so I approach it. The artist is
my first concern. My acts have to win and they
have to feel that they're making the maximum money. But
but the promoter live nation a g they gotta win too.
So so you look at the pot and again go

(21:49):
back to risk rewood, what are you risking and what
should you be rewarded? And now there's sometimes that that
equation is very much in the favor of the promoter.
Sometimes it's very much in favor of the artist, especially
if the artist doesn't, you know, sell the tickets and
the promoter takes a risk and they lose. But most

(22:09):
of the time, Um, but but if you but your job,
I believe is to have the knowledge about how the
pot is getting divided. But you have to know what's
in the pot before you can know what's divided. And
my thing is, how many of us really know what's
in the pot? Not in not that many? Okay, In
the old days before rolloups, frequently if you had a

(22:33):
losing date, you would give the promoter money back because
you have to be in business with them in the future,
whether it be other after the act wanted to return.
It seems like nobody gives money back to Live Nation.
It's a public company. What's your take on that, Well,
that's true. I mean there's a certain security. Um, you
want to work with people who are financially solvent, I do,

(22:56):
I mean, I don't want to be looking over my shoulder, Uh,
concerned that my artist isn't gonna get paid. And and
if there is that kind of risk, then I need
to share that prior to making a deal. And and
and payment terms are very important in a negotiation, but

(23:18):
being solvents is very important. I don't want to really
be looking over my shoulder about being paid. And it
happens very rarely now, it happens once in a while.
And uh, but you know, prefer to be with people
and then and and if I'm not sure if somebody
we just asked them to pay the money upfront, qual

(23:39):
of it. Okay, let's assume let's start at the beginning.
Let's talk about the stack things you know innately but
not everybody does. Let's assume you're still you're representing a
superstar client. Do you ever tell the act I think
you should go on the road or you're always waiting
for the manager to call? And what's that conversation as

(24:03):
far as what the timing is of recording, of of touring, Yeah,
it depends. I mean, uh, you know, I feel that
I have the ability to Sometimes people ask me what
my job is and I sometimes describe Sometimes, Um, I
build the car, and sometimes I just put the gas

(24:25):
in it. I have the ability and the talent to
build the car, but sometimes you just want me to
put the gas in it. So sometimes the artists, they're
telling me, the manager is telling me what they want
and that's all. Then they just want me to route
a tour. They just may want my opinion on certain things.
On the on the other hand, an artist may say,
put it all together versus show us what you would do,

(24:47):
show us where you would go, show us who you
would work with, tell us the venues you would play.
So it's just a very individual thing. But you know,
I having the ability to build it, to build a
car and have now or sometimes like I said, put
the gas in it. Whatever you need. But but I
kind of have a menu to offer in a perfect world.

(25:10):
What do you prefer? I would generally, uh if I
think so, you know, listen, I work with some very
very bright people, and um I have uh, you know,
I have a kind of a philosophy. It takes the
village and if you function as an island, you die
as an island. So I prefer to function as a
village with people. And you know, some of these some

(25:33):
of my artists have wonderful input. My I worked with
some managers are very bright. They don't have to have
my particular skill set, but they have different skill sets
that that that I need for the artist career to
be complete. Okay, in the old days, everybody paid ten percent.
You know, everybody's looking for a discount today. So what's
the deal there, especially with your menu as services? Well,

(25:56):
I mean, you know there are times. I mean, we
had one client who came to us from another agency,
you know, look for a deal and ended up paying
us more because of how much more they earned with
us and they didn't with that previous UM agency. So

(26:18):
you know that is hey, you hopefully people will pay
you for what you're worth. Sometimes people overpay you, not
a little bit to my but and there are sometimes
I get underpaid. But hopefully UM the artists and and
and their team will recognize your value that you add
to the equation and we'll pay you for it. Well,

(26:40):
you said someone came from another agency to what degree today?
Is their radiant poaching other other agencies? Oh, I think
that that that exists always quietly. I know people will
deny it, but that's a lot of bullshit. I think
there's a lot I think there's I think internally some
of the agencies this poetry within there. You know, there's

(27:03):
a lot of paranoia, you know, but but you know
poasting always exists. I mean, you know that's the d
n A of a lot of agents. They see an
opportunity or sometimes I'm I could be uh, I can
represent an act and I'm hearing about another agent constantly
knocking on the door. It's it's it's there, it's seed.

(27:24):
Be naive to think it's not okay. If you look
at the agency landscape, you know, the big cahunas W M, E,
C A A. Then in a tier below you have U,
T A and Wasserman and overall I'm not talking good
better otherwise, but your footprint is smaller. What is your
pitch to go with you as opposed to these larger agencies. Well,

(27:49):
as I said, I you know, uh, we have a
worldwide knowledge. I think we're experts and the and the
and the touring business that we are the uh, maybe
the only agency on a lot of levels that can
really compete with the promoters in terms of of of
what that what an artist can make. I mean I

(28:12):
sat with one superstar agent from one of these agents agencies.
And he said to me one day at all one
he says, I wish I could do what you do.
I wish I had the time to do what you do.
And um, and the focus because I got a thousand bands,
I gotta be a friend too. And you know, I

(28:33):
always say a man with a thousand friends has none.
You can be everywhere and know every deal when you
gotta you know your your your job is to be
an ambassador a lot of a lot of acts. It's
very difficult to focus on of this kind of the
kind of detail you're talking about. It the big the
big agencies, the big agencies. Yes, and you're saying that

(28:54):
so one of the pictures irrelevant of the veracity. As
you go and see any A, W M A U
t A, they can say, WHOA, we're gonna book your tours,
when we're gonna get you in television, we're gonna get
your sponsorship. What do you say to that? Sometimes? Yes,
sometimes now a lot of times it's a big air game.

(29:16):
I mean, you know, I spent five years in my
career at William Mars. You know, at a different time,
and there was there's a lot of there's a lot
of air to it. So that's that's the game. I mean,
you walk in there, you know, with nine agents and
different film people, and sometimes the team really works, and
sometimes it's just an air game, and sometimes people get disappointed. Hey,

(29:39):
one of the problems. You can be at one of
the major agencies and maybe it's maybe it's the literary
agent that's that you go, this person is done. When
I was at William Mars, there was some very uh,
you know, there was some agents that I represented, some
very big artists in the film and television business. Some
of them were quite capable, and some of them will
lose and um, you know, and and sometimes you can

(30:03):
get stuck with somebody from another area that you don't
really want and you don't really think is you know
it has it's good and it's bad. But uh, you
know a lot of it is there. Sometimes it's not,
and it depends what the artist needs are. But there
aren't many rock stars who become major film stars, that's
for sure. How much of your business is servicing as

(30:24):
opposed to just doing the work, showing up at gigs,
calling people, sending presents. Is that important or is just
the nuts and bolts important. Hey, some people have survived
very well showing off, bringing gifts, uh, sending presents for
the kids. You know, it takes all flavors and sometimes

(30:46):
that really works. That is not what I could depend
and that's not my number one skill set, so if
I had to depend on that, But I've seen others,
and I've seen other successful agents basically thrived that way,
and I think it's amazing. I couldn't do it, but
I think it's amazing. So let's assume you have a
band that does good business for a year, if they're

(31:08):
not going on tour for another year, how much contact
will you have for the manager or anybody else involved. No,
stay in touch, absolutely, but it's certainly. Hey, the artists
want to know the landscape. They want to know new information,
they want to know who's doing well. They want to know, um,
what's what, what? What you see in the future for them? Absolutely,

(31:30):
try to keep them informed new things that are going on,
new changes, gossip. Absolutely, well, let's talk about new changes.
Let's talk as we speak right now, COVID and the
touring landscape. What's your take there, It's pretty fucked up. Um.
I think that the indoor situation is very concerning at

(31:55):
this time, and in the fact that, uh, putting shows
on sale right now is a very difficult climate. It's uh,
there's a lot of people don't want to certainly sit
indoors next to um, you know, in a in a
closed quarters. So the indoor business is slightly altered and

(32:17):
the outdoor business not as much. But it's very concerning.
There are a lot of people who will not sit
at a concert. So you gotta you gotta anticipate you're
gonna lose some percentage of people going on sale now
it's not it's not a normal what what what? What
was a normal on sale? It's not a normal on
sale at this point. You know, if you sell out

(32:39):
an arena, you might have been able to sell out too.
If you you gotta figure you'll gonna lose ten percent,
you can lose twenty, you can lose five percent, but
you're gonna lose some percentage. This isn't an ideal time now.
We we all need to move forward, so sometimes we
have no choice, but it is. It is a more

(33:00):
difficult environment and climate right at this moment than it
normally is. Okay, so we're talking today, what do you
see for the next couple of months. I think when
kids start to get vaccinated that will help loosen things up.
I think the world in general is very difficult. It's
very hard to plan a worldwide tour now though some

(33:22):
are doing it, but it's very difficult in terms of
what countries are going to be open, and a lot
of times we're just we're winging it. We hope it's
going to be okay in March or April or next September,
but it's it's it's still a crapshoot right now. There's
nothing that's defined that you can Hey, Australia, I've got
a tour in Australia that was supposed to happen last February.

(33:48):
That's now maybe it's supposed to start in March. That
now maybe moved to next March. So how do you
plan a tour? You know, it's just it's it's very difficult.
At this point. You just have to I think you
have to just be prepared when the bell rings to go.
And then there are sometimes some artists are going to

(34:09):
dictate to you what they want to do and they say,
let's go, we want to go in the spring. We
want to go in the summer. We want to go
in the winter, and it's a craft shoot. You may
you may try to, but you may not get there. Okay,
artist comes to you looking for your expertise today about
touring within the next three months to a year. What

(34:29):
do you tell them? You're better off at this moment, Uh,
if you can play outdoors. I would suggest that for
the late spring summer. I would suggest that I would
just say, uh, and you would lose most probably some
percentage of business being indoors. And you go and you

(34:53):
take a big risk if you want to be indoors
in January, February, March. The first quarter. I think the
first quarter of this year is is pretty screwed up already.
I I think it's uh, it's it's there's there's just
an element of risk and and and the other problem
is you go city by city, you have different rules everywhere,

(35:13):
and the rules changed. It's such a moving target. I'm
going here, I'm going there. No, you're not going this
this mandate so hopefully I can't predict how the virus
will you know, uh, but the life of the virus
will be. I don't think anyone knew or believe there
was a delta variants eight weeks ago when the show
started going back on sale. But it's just, um, it's

(35:36):
just a very it's it's a crapshoot, you know, and
some people are willing to take it and move forward.
And you know, it used to be like let's go
out and celebrate on the road. Now let's go out
and survive on the road. Okay, in the old days,
you know, you tend to I'm talking about going back
a couple of decades, people toured all year. Now a

(35:56):
lot of stuff is concentrated in the summer. What's your
take on that. Well, you know, there's, first of all,
there's more opportunities in the summer because of the outdoor events.
So that's that's why there's a greater concentration obviously, whether

(36:18):
it's um UM fairs and you know i amphitheater shows
and festivals. Hey, whether whether when the weather is available
for shows that that's why there's always um you know,
whether it plays a factor in opportunity. And so when

(36:39):
you get to the winter, I mean people can create
indoor that you know, trying to indoor events, but it's
it's it's much more difficult. It's much easier to have
a rib roast and in Ohio and you know, and somewhere,
and so there's just a lot more opportunity. And that's
why there's much more touring in the summer. What about
the issue of the on sale date and how much

(37:01):
money people have? Let's start with on sale date. Used
to be concerts. You know, it could be a couple
of weeks, the tickets would go on said nothing go
on sale two years before. What do you think should
be done well with COVID? I mean, you know, you know,
I'm a student of this game as well as uh
you know, um, I practice it. I watch what others do?

(37:24):
I mean, I watched I watched the Elton John on
sale where he actually went on sale in cities and
play in stadiums and cities where he had arena dates
to play prior. That was amazing to me, and he
did well. So I learned from that. Can you really
do that? Can you really pull this off? Can you?

(37:45):
And nobody really knows prior to what happening when you
get to gauge what the public does. So I'm a
student and I'm always observing what I see, and and
and and and all of that feeds it feeds my
brain as far as how how to move forward. But

(38:06):
so right now, on sales, it's it's, it's. It's a
very unusual time because of the COVID situation to be
able to say this is how on sales should be.
I mean there are times, I mean I might think
of going on sale six weeks in advance, which which
we haven't done in in third thirty years. I might think, now,

(38:29):
let's go on sale six weeks for a show because
our window was open, where before I would not consider that,
and I would consider being on sale over a year
in front because the window was open. Now also, as
time goes on and the COVID situation hopefully gets better,
there's gonna be a on of shows. It's gonna be
a cluster funk out there. Okay, let's see. Let's look

(38:58):
pre COVID pre COVID it what's a reasonable amount of time? Uh,
the on sale before the Deep plays three four months?
You can go on sale October for a February show.
And what do you think about the the acts who
going on sale like a year before? Uh? Listen, there's

(39:21):
no one formula that guarantees you success. Uh, listen a
lot of times and when I say three four months,
that's America, Europe. It's very natural to go on SAILI
a year in front. So you know, there's different parameters
for different countries. What's what's the norm here and what's
the norm in Australia is very different sometimes, or what's

(39:43):
what's the norm here? What's the northern Germany? So you
just acqui acquiesced to what the population and what the
habits are of that particular country. Okay, so there are
people say, hey, I want my day to play earlier
in the summer because the kids are going to run
out of money. Do you think that's a factor. I

(40:05):
think that's a factor. I think there are a lot
of factors, I think, you know, but that is absolutely
a factor. How much competitions in the market, who else
is coming you know, all of you know, yeah, all
of this is a factor. Um. Oh, you can live
in a city that's being supported by uh, you know,
a major company that's moving out, and there's a lot

(40:26):
of factors. But that go into an on sale competition
is probably is as fierce as anything. How many other
artists are going on sale in my genre? In that city.
Speaking of genres, you made your bones in the rock world.
Certainly in terms of the Spotify top fifty, rock isn't

(40:47):
even there. What's gonna sell as we go forward? Well,
I think pop is the only thing right now that's
moving the needle. I mean, it's uh, if you right now,
you can build a career on cont having enough pop hits.

(41:07):
And what I what I've observed through the years now
that they used to be you would be a team
flash and you'd be gone, and that doesn't exist anymore.
It's you have enough hits. Britney Spears justin Timberlake, Spice Girls,
these Backstreet Boys, new kids on the block. These artists

(41:28):
have super careers, you know. And they were pop artists
that that, and they were Steen stars and then in
the earlier days they would have their running they'd be over.
Now the audiences grow with them, so uh, there's no
longer that uh, you know, so pop to pop today

(41:48):
some of the artists Bruno Mars for the rest of
your life, paint to paint for the rest of your life.
These people have careers the rest of their lives. There
will be people seeing them in forty years from now
and they are the new Billie Joel's and Paul McCartney's
and you know all you know, these kind of artists
who have tons of hits that most of them will

(42:12):
sustain and carry an audience with them for for a lifetime.
What about the hip hop business, I think that will
happen also. I think some of the you know, Travis Scott,
he could have a career for you know, uh, I
think his following will stay with him post Malone. I

(42:34):
think a lot of these superstars, these people people grow
up in a certain period of time and they identify
with the culture at that time, and that's what they
remember and and and then twenty years go by and
that's what they you know, that's what they remember that
they went out with their girlfriend and they met here
and they went you know, and that's the soundtrack of

(42:54):
their lives. And so I really believe a lot of
the superstars will will sustain for a long time. Okay,
let's talk about ticket prices. On one extreme, you have
the Stones who completely flex price, it's almost like buying
an airline ticket. Then you have other acts a doll

(43:15):
tailor's we are trying to get every last dollar out
of the market. You have a superstar act, what do
you tell them? What are your protections? Metallica has certainly
not wanted to overcharge or even you know, play it
what the market will bear. You know, it's an end festival.

(43:36):
The artist controls the picture. I I make suggestions, it's
if if you know, it's but you have to know
sometimes when you may hit a wall and you may
say you know. The dynamic pricing is uh. I think
a very important feature to now be part of an

(43:57):
on sale so that you can maximum eise or dollars
when you put a show on sale. But I really
believe if you and people will flex and reduce the price.
And but in general, I feel you want to max
the dollars. I'm not comfortable. And again it's up to

(44:17):
the artists, but I'm not comfortable trying to have the
public being the one to horror as many dollars and
be that kind of uh, you know, solicitor. But again
I work for the artists, and if they want me
to maximize every dollar any which way, I will do
what they want. I will share with them my thoughts

(44:38):
about UM, about potentially hurting your fan base UM, and
maybe they'll care. Maybe they won't. But all I can
do is offer my advice in my opinion, But it
really is up to the artists and what they want
me to do. Knowing knowing the uh, you know the position.
So you talk about high prices, do high prices hurt

(45:01):
the AX career their fan base? It can? We'll go
a little deeper it can, you can? You can know
it can? I mean, if if you're pushing, I mean,
if you're gonna go push five fifty dollars, let's a
ticket or you know, you know whatever, and that's what
you're putting out there the public. You're gonna you're gonna

(45:21):
hit a wall and then you're gonna not gonna sell tickets,
and uh, then you're hurting your artists. So there's different
ways people try to disguise how they might do it.
A platinum v I p there's uh, there's all kinds
of ways to be able to obtain the dollars without
necessarily prostituting yourself. So I am not a believer in

(45:43):
prostituting yourself if you um, and I'm also you know,
but but the goal is to try to take as
much money as you can and not leave it on
the secondary market. I think dynamic ticketing, I think the
V I think there are platforms that we have that
help you to take in most of the money. Okay,
so those would be you know, V I P. Platinum.

(46:08):
What else helps you take in most of the money.
Aisle seats. I think aisle seats now is a very
big income earner. A lot of people would prefer to
sit you know, four seats in and would pay extra money.
The uh you know, there's so there's uh, there's there's
many different ways to maximize Hey, dynamic, dynamic pricing can

(46:33):
can basically get you with the market bears and uh
so I would find that, you know, again, I'm not
in favor. I mean, some people will sell the first
two rows a thousand dollars and and and that's fine,
that's kind of unique. But and I and I think

(46:54):
it's fine that you know, but I think I think,
I think you want to avoid the image that you're
prostent do it to yourself. That's all. Whatever works within
the confines of your artists that that doesn't prostitute yourself. Okay,
you and me both know that the fees are outside
of the deal, so that the act can't commission them.

(47:15):
So ultimately Ticketmaster or whatever ticketing company takes all the heat.
What is going to happen with the fees going forward? Well,
I mean I don't know ultimately where ticketing goes. And uh,
I mean I you know, I have the fantasy that

(47:36):
one day that the artists will be able to have
every artists will be able to have their own ticketing
and be able to charge their own fees and do
it directly and be in control of that pick their
ticketing company. I mean, I would love to see us
have our own ticketing company and and choose that going
on sale. Let's kind of out of our that that
doesn't exist yet, and I'm not technologically advanced to know

(47:59):
how eventually about to happen. But the until certain bigger
things change in the overall um scaled I don't believe.
I believe the fee game will continue as it is
at the moment, but it's going to take a bigger
picture to change it. As an agent, how much power

(48:21):
do you have over the fees? And do you ever
have acts who share in the fees? Yes, we have
acts to share in the fees. It depends on the act.
The act is the power if you've got a superstar act,
you can, you can, you can participate in a lot
of revenue. It's it's like if you're selling out a
venue and I'm walking into your venue and I'm gonna

(48:43):
sell out forty thousand tickets, that's that you have building
power and you can. You know, there's a lot of
money to be made for the buildings and so sometimes
and the venues and the promoters, so in order to
have you, they're willing to give up for it. About
an act, it's further down the food chain where it's
actually a negotiation where you know it's not going to

(49:05):
go instantly clean in the stadium or an arena. You
you have, you have, you have less, you have less um,
you have less power or um negotiating strength. In those cases, Hey,
a lot of times you know you haven't acted. Let's
they can do. Hey, you know sometimes you are a

(49:26):
real to negotiation as when you guarantee again, it's first reward.
So I if I get them, if I can sell
them all, I deserve I deserve it all. If I can't,
I don't deserve it all. I mean I have artists
that don't expect to make as much as some of
my other artists. That's all they know. Well, this is
a superstar. They will get this more than I will. However,

(49:50):
I can at least tell them what the scoreboard is
and try to get them as much within their ranks
as they possibly can get, knowing what else is left
on the table. Okay, let's go back to the beginning.
Where are you from? I grew up. I grew up
in Bayside Queen's basically. And what did your parents do
for a living? My father was in the garment industry

(50:15):
and my mom was a homemaker with four boys. Four boys?
Where are you in the hierarchy? I was third. I
have a younger brother who's ten years younger than me,
so I was the baby for ten years. Okay, and
you graduate from high school, what's the next step? I
went to NASA Community College, finished NASA Community College, and

(50:36):
two an a half years I met a I met somebody,
a dear friend of mine, Corky Abdo from who used
to play in a local bar band when I went
and I used to go see the band. I was
nineteen years old. He used to go to the club
see the band, and uh we met at that I
didn't know he went to Nassau Community College. But we

(50:58):
met at the college and I was kind of a
little lost in my world, and he offered me a
job to be their roadie, which I remember bringing home
a van with equipment in it and uh my dad says, oh,
you're a movie man, and uh wait wait. What they
learned for me is that I really wasn't very good
with my hands and that I had a gift to gab.

(51:20):
So about six or eight weeks later, I became their manager,
which was really booking clubs in Long Island and New
York City. And that's really how I always started. Okay,
and were you a big music fan before that? I
was a music fan. Yes, as a matter of fact,
when I would when I first went to one of

(51:41):
the clubs and I had a job, and I said,
wait a second, there's music, there's girls, they're getting high.
This is I could do this for a little So yes,
I was very attractive as a matter of fact, when
I realized that I could actually do this for real,
and I I was all in. I have found I

(52:03):
was very fortunate. I had found a passion, and um,
I wanted to be in this game. I wanted to
play on a major league level, and I was, uh,
you know, I was very committed. Two I was only
the start for it. That's basically where it's at. I was,

(52:25):
did you starve? Yes, basically I was. I struggled for
a long time. I lived on unemployment. I you know,
I had I had jobs in the music business. Um.
I went from uh when my origin goes. When I
was nineteen, I worked with the Salvation Maybe. Um that's

(52:46):
how I met Billy Joel by the way. They opened
for Billy's band in the Hamptons, and Billy and I
had a vibe with each other. He was we were
both lifeers. He saw me as a synergetic kind of
guy and I and Billy was kind of the star
are in his in his band, the Hassles, and I
thought we could do something. And anyway, I went on
from there and wait, just wait, once you start managing,

(53:08):
school is done. School. Yeah. Once I got yeah, I lost.
I think I peaked in the eighth grade and uh,
I think it started going downhill from there. And by
the time I was in college, I really didn't have
a lot of interest in college. I didn't uh you know,
it was like I didn't have another place to go,

(53:30):
but I didn't really have UH, I didn't really have
a path. I was kind of lost. You're managing Salvation
Army Band, You're right, and you're going to uh you
meet Billy Joel. Then what happens? Well, you know, I
eventually got myself a job at this company called Universal

(53:51):
Attractions would still exist, and they were really an R
and B agency, and they wanted me to be like
the White Hippie Department and go find bands. And I
actually really found this band called the Frost, who were
from Michigan. And and so I was about one and
I was managed and I became the Frost manager. I

(54:12):
went out and saw them, and I'm coming from this
agency and now I was being a booking agent and
Universal and here I am meeting this band, the Frost
and became their manager. And I was twenty one years old.
And I remember we played Cobo Hall, which was the
arena at that time in Detroit, and we were second
on the bill because they had a real big following
in the state of Michigan. And we were second on

(54:34):
the bill. It was three Dog Night and uh, Frost
was second. And there I am a Cobo Hall and
this is kind of but I liked this but it
was a little bit over my head, but I um,
I was kind of uh So what happened is the
band eventually broke up and there was a guitar player
named Dick Wagner who was in that band, and Dick

(54:54):
and I. Dick and I formed a relationship and I
tried to put a band together with Dick Wagner, one
of the drummer from the Salvation Navy and Billy Joel.
Billy came down to one session and that was it
and he moved on to his own solo career. Dick
Um and myself and we had this guy, Gregor Rama

(55:16):
from the m Boy Dukes. We formed the band called
URSA Major We try to we we hearst recorded and
just when we were going to run out of money
to keep the band alive, a producer named Bob Ezram
showed up and UH did an amazing, amazing job producing
their record and we were signed to our c A
and UM, But at the end of the day it

(55:38):
didn't work out. We disbanded and I ended up getting
a job at twenty three making a hundred bucks at
an agency called Sutton Artists, and UH the biggest contemporary
act was all Over Gut three at the time, and
again I was like, go out there and you know,
and find acts. And what they did let me do though,

(55:58):
because in between this experience I also promoted concerts at
Sunny New Balls, where I met my white money. You're
promoting concerts. Where's the money coming from the Sunny Pool?
You know what happened is um my, my. I go
back to my friend Cooky. He he found two dentists.

(56:19):
They gave us twenty five thousand dollars to promote concerts
at Sunny New Balls. And this goes back like seventy three.
So I bought Frank Zappa. I overpaid. I overpaid for everybody.
So I lost the all day of money and and
but I did make relationships with the people at New

(56:39):
pal To eventually at Queen's College, and they let me
be their buyer, buy their concerts and paid me a commission.
And the agencies at Sutton they let me do that
to subsidize my salary. And what I kept doing is
buying Billy Joel because now Billy had a hit single
and had uh you know, and and we had a
connection and a relation ship and he was with another agency,

(57:01):
and I was like, Jesus, I really want to work
with Billy and and when I heard the Piano Man album,
I was just I mean, I was blown away. I
didn't know that this guy was talented. I knew he
was something special, but I didn't know he was this special.
So I was kind of blown away. I was a fan.
I thought it was an amazing artist, and I really
wanted to work with him. And that was one that

(57:22):
was the way I kept going was I kept buying him.
I kept seeing him a Queen's College, at Nupolt's and
you know, we continued, Okay, so you're buying, You're staying
in business, You're buying Billy Joel. Keep going, so I
I I. So I stayed in touch with Billy and um,
I'm working as Sutton Artists and I seeing Billy and
you know, one day I went up to his house

(57:43):
and he told me, uh, you know, I should go
speak to his wife Elizabeth at the time and uh
and at the time it was a kind of an
ironic thing that happened. There was a festival in more Self, France,
and Jazz Festival, and we represented for Man and Tony
Williams lifetime and so, and Elizabeth was working on this

(58:04):
festival herself, so we both went over to southern France
and we didn't go to the festival. We went to
Santo pay together. And I knew at that weekend and
now Billy's career at that point he had this was
he put out his third album, is kind of not

(58:25):
really making them, you know, taking him to the next step,
and there was internal change going on and uh, and
that's why Billy suggested I meet with Elizabeth and and Uh.
Elizabeth and I spent the weekend together and we became
close friends. And I knew that weekend I was gonna
be Billy's agent and m On August sixteenth, nineteen seventy six, me,

(58:49):
Billy and Elizabeth had a mock meeting in their town
house and we both voted for me to be the agent,
and me and Elizabeth voted for her to be the manager,
and I left Sutton Artists. They wanted me to be
in business on my own, so I started. They were
home run management and I was home run agency at

(59:10):
the time, and that's how my career second. Did you
think you're up to the gig? Yes, yes, I was
as Gary Busey said to Joe Cocka one night when
I was there at the Greek Theater. Success is when
opportunity meets preparation. I was well prepared. I understood. I

(59:33):
was somebody. I was a student of this game. I
was a sponge. I understood what to do. I had
a philosophy about what to do. Uh. You know, it
was like and nobody knew me. I was a nobody,
so it was like, why are you going to this guy?
I mean, you know, and uh, I remember one time

(59:54):
they had me meet with their attorney and he just
quizzed me to see if does does he know he's
doing And the answer was yes. And I had a
philosophy when I started with Billy, was like, we're not
opening for anybody. You know, if we played fifteen under seats,
if we played two thousand and open for anybody, you
go headline, because when you go headline, they'll come back
and we'll get the next time. So that became really

(01:00:17):
there was a real philosophy about how to how to
do this. But I was prepared. I was prepared for
an opportunity though I was only one who knew it. Okay,
if you did, you're on a home run. I mean,
you have your home run agency. It's a very tight network.
Are you on a percentage or to give you a
salary discurse? Yes? Now, Actually, um, when I first started,

(01:00:39):
I went from like I think I was making a
hundred fifty and I went to to five hundred, like
on Friday and making a hundred and fifty on Monday
and making five hundred. It was like I can get
rid of the toyota. I got a cougar. I moved
into the city from Queens. I mean it was a
life changer, but it wasn't you know. I wasn't like, hey,
you made it, but it was the beginning of of

(01:01:02):
seeing a new world. Okay, you have the home run agency,
when do you start signing your acts? In addition to
billion who were there, well, we I ended up signing
Phoebe Snow and Harry Chapin and Garland Jefferies and you

(01:01:22):
know then and and then, um, I I got the
Beach Boys and uh actually he was doing quite well.
And then I lost the Beach Boys, and I lost
Harry and and the uh in nineteen one. You know, um,
I was I didn't know if I could um sustain

(01:01:44):
an agency sustain a business. Elizabeth was now out of
the picture, and so, uh probably out of fear of
not being able to sustain myself, I went and worked
at William Mars five years. Okay. It was Billy cool
with that. Yeah, okay, So did you approach them or
were they to approach you? Uh, I don't remember how

(01:02:07):
their relationship worked out. I was available. I had have
been approached by others before. But uh I remember though,
Um I was at William Morris for about three weeks
and I had a body tremble. It was like it
was like it was just it was just the wrong fit.
But it was very educational. For five years, I understand

(01:02:29):
learned a lot as far as how it worked, and
and you know, a lot of the bullshit. And you know,
I met some very wonderful people, and people became stars
in their fields, and and uh I and I learned
a lot of the bullshit that existed there, and and
and the bureaucracy and and and and and how these
guys were. I remember one time when I was gone

(01:02:51):
and I ran into one of the senior agents on
a plane and he's introduced, introducing me as an alumni.
And I'm going alumni. I fucking quit, you know, but uh,
you know, but it was a good experience and the
fact that it it just it exposed me to a
world that uh, I really didn't know about. Okay, And

(01:03:13):
did you make good money? Well not really. I remember
one year I was making about a hundred and fifty
thousand dollars, like win a million dollars in commission, I
mean literally a million dollars. Was in the early eighties,
and I got a dollar raise. And I remember one
of the other agents because at the time, the agents
that were in the music age, so william Mars, most

(01:03:36):
of them didn't have any real clients. It was really
a hotchpotch of people, and their their game was to
beat the management. You know, let's not they weren't um,
they weren't trying to get an act. They were trying
to fool the management to keep their jobs. And one
guy says to me, hey man, we should just be
happy we have jobs, and I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait.
You know, but that with that that day, I knew

(01:03:59):
I was done. I was out of william Mars. This
is never gonna work for me, you know, they were
It was just uh, they didn't take care of the
people at that time that wasn't there their mantra. So
I left. Okay, how long did you contemplate leaving and

(01:04:20):
what you do for startup funds for your new agency. Well,
Roddy Damesfield, who was my client, said to me, I
mean he had a real prejudice. He felt that the
senior agents, William Mars, just to abuse him. He was
just not a fan of theirs, and he hated paying
meat and percent and going to them. So he told

(01:04:42):
me one day, if you don't get out of here,
I'm leaving. I'm not I'm not uh. And I had
a bunch of different circumstances come around and and obviously
I just said how they didn't really take care of you.
So I I was gonna leave. And it took me
about a year. You're an half. I was waiting on.
I had pursued some another client that I was trying

(01:05:05):
to get that ended up not working out though I
was promised the client, but it didn't work out. And
I finally woke up and said, hey, I'm out of
my mind. I should be out of here. And Rodney
was the one who advanced me forty three thousand dollars
to start my own business. Hmm. And believe me, he
told me for many years how I owed him, but

(01:05:25):
he but he did advance me forty three thousand dollars.
And I remember Adam Cornfeld has worked me for over
fourty years. We hopped out, he hopped We hopped out
of William Morris and opened up on office across the street.
And our clients who are Rodney, Billy, Ted Nugent. Um,

(01:05:45):
I think John Caffey and the Beaver Brown Band and
the Beach Boys, and uh, we had a little bit
of we had a little bit of a game going. Okay,
just for a second. What was Rodney really like? And
this was when he really started to make get and
how to what degree were you involved in that? Now?
I was very close to Rodney. Um. I was thirty

(01:06:06):
one when I thought of representing Rodney, and I think
he was fifty nine. Rodney was a young man's comic.
I mean, he can really better to me than he
could to contemporary. We were more on the same page.
And he his DNA was he it was all comedy.
He was just uh. I mean he first of all,
nobody made me laugh like he did. I mean when

(01:06:28):
you're hanging with somebody, and he was fast and things
he would see you, he was It was just extraordinary.
He was just absolutely brilliant. But he also taught me
very clearly had to be rich, famous and miserable, and um,
you know, Rodney was also very depressed. Came from a
very difficult background with his mom and stuff. But he

(01:06:49):
was a brilliant comedy a comedian. He introduced me to
the world of comedy. He I would travel with him
and um, you know many times and uh he you know,
he made good money. He was always you know, he's
well played casinos and I had a lot of great,
wonderful experiences Rodney. I was with Rodney till for twenty

(01:07:11):
three years until he passed. And as a matter of fact,
I always remember when I went to his funeral. Um,
I probably hadn't cried in the years, and I saw
Rodney's daughter, Melody, and she we hugged and I started
to cry, and she said, he trusted you. And um.
But I think to him, and I quote him many

(01:07:33):
times in my life. I think of lines that he said,
you know, uh one am I sweating for I got
the job? I think of that that all the time.
How about how I approached life because a lot of
times I gotta remember I I got the job, I
already won, and um, I don't have to function with
that fear and uh that might go into a situation.
So to what degree were you involved in his film career?

(01:07:57):
Very little? I mean actually the woman he had a manager,
a Stell Endlow, who actually produced and oversaw the easy
of the Back to School, which was his biggest success.
And uh, she passed, she died of cancel and once
she passed, I felt that the film career went astray.

(01:08:20):
Rodney became as the manager of Rodby and you know
that had limited success, but he was a phenomena, of course,
and he was he really made his bones on late
night TV. To what degree with the manager handle that?
It was? Really it was once a Stell passed, it
really wasn't a manager. I mean, uh, I remember when
Jay Leno, he told me Jay Leno he had an

(01:08:42):
open invitation. He could go up on Jay anytime he wanted.
He really, Uh, he was a godfather. He was a
golf he was and he was the godfather of the
young comic. I mean he you know, I Andrew Dice
Clay who we still still worked with and loved Ice
and I got him from Rodney and you know, um
he all of these whether it was Kennethon Seinfeld and

(01:09:04):
Rosanne Barr and it was just a WHOSU those hbos
specials were just and and he loved the the talent.
They were like his children. Okay, see now you have
your own agency and you're calling it what q b
Q because quality before quantity because after my experience and William,

(01:09:27):
I don't remember one time we had there was a
meeting and there was an artist that the fair guy,
the Fair department wanted the agency to represent. Nobody wanted
to represent the guy, but we ended up representing him.
And I said to myself, can you imagine if the
artists only knew that nobody wanted him? But here he

(01:09:47):
is the Fair agents is pushing him and that and
I and so the philosophy of quality before quantity is,
which is really a philosophy of mine anyway, who's just
like um? So that so we were qb Q. That's
that was how we started and what played out at
qb Q q b Q UM actually and we started

(01:10:11):
in eighties six and and and a eight was we
just boomed. I mean, we started really making money. I
mean we had the dirty Dancing to her, which was
just huge. I mean we sold that eight radio city
musicals with just an ad I mean so and that
came from a client, Eric Carman. It ticked me off

(01:10:32):
about that. And Debbie Gibson exploded in and and and
and Billy obviously was a continued superstar. So we were
just we were just rocking. We were just smoking and
you know, um and and and that. You know that continued.
Um So the agency was was basically very healthy in

(01:10:54):
the in the early nineties. We got uh the Q
Prime guys brought over there rocks that us so that
became Metallica and def Leopard and you know and uh
Tesler and and their roster. So that became a part
of you know, and then um Alan Kovac, who had

(01:11:15):
been a very close associate, he gave us. We were
introduced to Motley Crewe and and and that. So you know,
we just had established we we established a relationship with
credibility of being very good at what we did. And
there were a lot of you know, and and people
were drawn to us, and we were hustled. We hustled

(01:11:37):
people we we went out hustling and worked very hard
to uh to get clients and and it was. And
then then in the late nineties I sold the business
to Bob Silliman. Okay, but he did end up buying
all the other agencies. People thought he was going to
roll up the age. What was going on there? Well,

(01:11:58):
we were, we were going to do it. We did.
We had five agencies under our umbrella. And then Bob
sold the Clear Channel and uh he he said to
me when he sold, you know we had five there
was you know, he paid everybody's lawyers fees and you
know that put in the time and energy. And two

(01:12:18):
of the agencies, which was I, T. B and John Giddings,
continued and made deals the Clear Channel, which became Live Nations,
So they continued. The others didn't happen. But MAB paid
the legal piece and and he took care of me.
He gave me my business back, which I was only
there with him for two and a half years, and
he gave my business back and he paid me start

(01:12:40):
from the beginning. Why did you make the deal? Well,
it was at the time of the roll up. I
just saw it as as an opportunity to besides make money. UM,
I just sort of as uh. I liked what he
was doing. I thought he was making smart buys. I
mean at that time buying pace and sell a door

(01:13:03):
and uh Delstner and coppolit I mean I thought he
was he was he was, he was making good picks.
So I wanted to be part of that team. I
was interested in that. And I remember um meeting with
Mitch later and um, you know, he says, you always
make money, and then he introduced me and I had

(01:13:23):
a meeting with Bob and Bob was talking. Then they
have the meeting was Rodney jokes and uh, Bob made
me an offer and I became part of his team. Okay,
so it ends with the sailor you get your business back.
What goes on there. Well, my experience was so good

(01:13:46):
that I was open to be acquired again. And actually
it did happen. Uh several years later, when um I
made a deal with Van burkele my son Jared came
into the business and he said, hey, if I'm going
to come in, I want to grow the business and
we needed to find a rabling and uh so we

(01:14:08):
spent you know, Jack Kennedy. As a matter we'd have
financial people I would be saying, well, where did we
leave off with this one? What's the status of this one?
But we started to realize that we needed somebody who
understood or had a sense of the entertainment space. Not
somebody and not just people who are financial people, but
people who at that time could certainly understand, uh, the

(01:14:31):
entertainment space. And we identified Ron Barkel, who had interest
in that space and investment in that space. And we
took some meetings and our lawyer knew somebody connected to
Wrong and you know, and and ten years ago we
made a deal with Wrong. And was he an eager
buyer or you had to sell it to him? I

(01:14:53):
think it was mutual. I think the I think timing
is everything. I think they were open to expand in
their entertainment game. And uh, and I had such a
great experience with Bob Sulliman, you know that, why wouldn't
I want to do this again? Right? So, ultimately, you know,

(01:15:17):
brokeled in by other agencies. What's going on there? Well,
we've we've done two deals since then, you know, we've
done several deals. We brought in Marshall Alassa, who is
a superstar agent and as a major roster, and we
brought in K two from England with John Jackson or
his Metallica and Iron Maiden worldwide. And then we just

(01:15:37):
made a deal in association with x Ray who represents
Coldplay and Guerrillas and um, M and M. So we've
made some some major in roads over the uh you know, UM,
you know, we're not we're not trying to be UM
you know, we we're not trying to be CIA, but
we've made some uh I think some very calculated, small

(01:16:00):
intelligent moves or some great people to who are you
trying to be? We're trying to be prepared. I mean,
you know, I I one time, like I believe ultimately
that um, you know, if there was ever you know,
just like in the philosophy of my would we started

(01:16:22):
this interview out and we talked about the a artists
being compromised in the agency world because you know, the
the artist didn't want to pay for the same services
or similar services twice. And I felt that the only
way that if that if you're if you're going to

(01:16:43):
be threatened or your business is gonna be threatened, then
you may have to get into the promotion business and
why should I lose an artist to somebody that I've
developed and have a relationship with it. I have a
foresight because I just don't have the money to go compete.
So um by now having a lot of you know,

(01:17:03):
agents that have relationships with their artists that um you
know that kind of at the same time, as much
as we're building an agency business, we're building you know,
or we have the accessibility if we need it to
be in that space. We can be in that space.
We can play in that space if we have there

(01:17:24):
as long as we have the resources. It's not necessarily
where I'm going, but it's a possibility. Okay, So you're
saying theoretically, if you want to go into from motion business,
Ron has deep enough pockets to support you. Ron can
and you know, if Ron shows that that that's you know,
it's just hey, Ron's available for an opportunity. There's some

(01:17:45):
great opportunities now, you know, as as as long as
it works out with others, we don't need that. But
if it didn't and our business was threatened, then I
think we got to step up to the plate. And
I think you go, you know, and I think to
be aligned with others and hey, and and if if

(01:18:05):
I can give my arts the same opportunities as somebody else,
why wouldn't you want to stay with me who you
already know? So you're saying there's room for more competitors
beyond as a major scale, beyond a g and live
nation if necessary, if the agent is now now now
as long if the agents don't want to promote, the

(01:18:27):
agencies don't want to promote, well that's their that's their choice.
But I think that's the only way to eventually um
neutralize the game. I mean, otherwise, you know, you're always
gonna be the tail wagging the dog. But you know
what would be the trigger to go down that road?

(01:18:47):
Keep taking my ax, keep you know, if I can't compete,
if I can't compete with you, and I'm gonna, you know,
become somebody that was making you know, seven figures a
year and beduce to uh, you know, to uh you know,
to you know, to a small sum of money. You're
you're you're now costing me my income, You're taking my

(01:19:09):
living away. So how how am I going to protect myself?
I gotta compete with you? And why do I want
to give up these primary relationships? Because you have the
resources that I don't have. And yeah, maybe agencies don't
want to take risks, and I understand that, but that's
the game you're in. And how did you convince Marsha

(01:19:29):
to come with you? I think that I think what
we offered is the I think Marsha can be an
independent within an organization. She's she's Marsha doing her thing,
but she also has us, and she has a bigger
picture and and and other players when she wants to,

(01:19:51):
and she doesn't have to have us when she does.
She's you know, it's like it's she's she's an independent
and and and a paul of a bigger picture. So
she can draw from our resources other experiences with other
artists are doing. But she's able to run her own business.
So your CEO, you essentially never tell her how to
run her business. Now, I don't tell her. I share

(01:20:14):
with her. I talked to her all the time, we
share information. She'll bounce things off of me. I'll bounce
things off of her. Where where friends? Where you? And
But I don't tell her what to do? Okay? And
with the English company, what's the history there? Same thing?
I mean, it's like I think our philosophy is we

(01:20:34):
want to give everybody. We want to encourage the entrepreneurs
and the star ages to be star agents. We're just
we're just giving you an umbrella with certain resources that
you can you can extract from. So we really encourage
I try to avoid all the politics. I mean, listen,
it's not my business. But some of these agencies, you'd

(01:20:54):
be surprised em many unhappy people. There are people who
are miserable politically. It's a s and it's not out there,
and there's a lot of honesty about that that's not
out there. But there's a lot of very unhappy people
and a lot of people stay there at a fear
comfort all that kind of stuff. But I'm I try
to be if you're a star, I try to we

(01:21:16):
try to encourage your independence. We try to encourage, you know,
the best of both worlds, security and independence at the
same time. Well, you know, it used to be that,
especially in the seventies, music was huge income for these
major agencies. Now the agencies are really like you know

(01:21:39):
in sports, the UFC, I mean, what's going through the
head of these agents there? Music agents are getting no respect.
Well not in my world, you know, I mean, you know,
and God bless, you know the entrepreneurship and um and
you know, and you know and how they've diversed and

(01:21:59):
you know, it's it's you know, I'm I admire what
many many people have done. However, um, that's not where
i am. I'm not. I'm not some of these people.
I'm a music business. I'm to Sarrio, i am not
in the sports business. I'm a sports fan. I'm not
in the sports business. I'm not you know, we have
we have alignments with people. We have a sponsorship group

(01:22:21):
that we that we have an alignment with. But I'm
you know, I admire and God bless, but I'm not
in the shoe business. I'm in the music business. I
have a lane, I have a niche, I have a
way of what I know and what I'm an expert in.
I'm not a you know, I'm not a jack of
all trades. And the way you tell your story is

(01:22:43):
a little different from other agents. Other te agents tell
the story although they were going out six nights a
week networking looking for talent, did we not hear that
or that you didn't just didn't do it that way?
I did it that way. I mean Hey, I I
go to l A, and I go to Howard Coftins,
and I visit people I was chasing all the time.

(01:23:05):
I never have considered myself, uh a great signer, though
we we ended up having, you know, a very good roster.
But I, you know, I would be out there. I mean,
but there's different ways of being out there, and and
you know, and that evolves and and then you grow

(01:23:25):
your business. And we've had a lot of people who
have been with us for a long time and they'd
be at on the street and and and sometimes you party.
You're really you know, you have a relationship with one
manager and he signs bands and he loves your work,
and all of a sudden you're representing more bands from
their roster. So there's just many ways to obtain a roster.

(01:23:46):
And uh, hey, there are some some agencies that's hire
fifty agents and see what sticks to the wall. I mean,
we haven't been that kind of That's not been our
motus operendum, but hey, there are other I would like
to be in the country business. Now, am I personally
gonna be in the country business. Not really, But if
I can find and and and the superstar agent, that

(01:24:08):
would seek what we offer, um, and you know that
that would be the way I'd want to be in
the country business. I wouldn't necessarily myself stop going door
to door, but I need somebody else who's a superstar,
who has who can go beyond the big agency or
feel that you know, would would have the you know
kind of I guess, the courage, the entrepreneurship and the

(01:24:31):
spirit to uh to make a move. I mean, there
aren't very many independence out there anymore. I think everybody's
looking for safety net. So how many people work for
you in New York twenty two twenty two? And how
many your agents? And okay, now you're only one person,
So how much can you handle? And if I sign

(01:24:52):
with you, are you doing the work or somebody else
doing the work? Um? Both? I mean sometimes sometimes I'm
the parent. Sometimes I al, we signed the band, why
don't we the boy band, which so I believe is
gonna be you know, superstar band. I'm right in there.
We've resenting worldwide. I am right in there. I'm there

(01:25:13):
with my my son Jared and with Adam Quintfeld, and
I'm I'm right in there doing the work. I mean,
but again, it takes the village, and I have different
relationships within different networks and um and uh so, but
uh yeah, I you know, sometimes I'm the parent sometimes

(01:25:34):
but I delegate. Well I'm a good delegator, but I
also melodically on and I oversee. Okay, what's your personal future?
You're gonna do this till you drop? Well, listen, I
got you know, we have the last year we were
supposed to have the Death Weap in Motley Cruz Poison
Stadium Tour, which was probably the biggest tour in America

(01:25:57):
last year and I was just hugely successful. And now
our next years it's going to be the third time
that this thing is gonna be scheduled. So here we
are and Billy Joel doing stadiums and Metallica doing stadiums.
I mean, why would I want to let go of this?
This is a blast? I mean, to me, what an

(01:26:17):
August and it is to walk into a stadium of
forty people and your artist is playing and I'm having
a blast. So why would I want to You know,
It's like if you said to me if I could
still pitch baseball and win twenty games a year, and
then he said to me, hey, you when you're gonna
retired as long as I get to keep If I

(01:26:37):
can still win twenty games, why would I'm having a blast.
So I'm having a great time. If you told me
I had a big bar, bands and and and what
crawl my way, I don't know if I could do that,
but I could do this. This is fun, okay? And
you're doing this? Is this seven? Or you have any
other interests I do? I have. I have another life.

(01:26:58):
I you know, I I play golf. I still pitch softball.
I don't know how long that will keep going on.
I'm a big sports fan. UM. I have a lot
of you know, some very significant other I'm very close
to my family, my daughter and my son and my grandson,
and and and some very close family. And I have
some very very close friends that have nothing to do

(01:27:20):
with the business. I don't know. The best friends is
a shrink and uh sometimes I'll sit there with him
and I can talk to him and and get a
whole different perspective of of the world psychologically or what
what what people are thinking in a way I may
not have seen something and UH find it, um, you know,

(01:27:42):
UH find it very intriguing. So I have a network
of which most people really don't know of people that
just have nothing to do with my daily world. Have
you ever been in therapy? Yes, As a matter of fact,
my therapist, my my buddy more um who I drove

(01:28:03):
with him from New York when he went to school
of psychology in San Diego and he um and and
and I watched Mawkie had to go through analysis and
all of this too, um, you know, to to become
a doctor. And I watched him go through this whole process.
But he and he was getting so happy. It was

(01:28:23):
like he was really working himself out and really understanding
himself in a very deep level. And I says, man,
I love this ship. And and so my therapist for
seven years was one of his teachers, and Stanley was
just brilliant. I mean, Stanley wouldn't give you much, but Stanley,

(01:28:43):
you know, definitely helped me sort out a lot of
you know, parent understanding and parent issues. And it paved
the way, um for for for me to have a
happy life. I took a lot of lessons out of that.

(01:29:05):
And um, I'm you know, wisdom is very important to
be smart. You'd be smart about yourself being emotionally healthy,
It's very very important to me and to surround you
people that kind of support that. Like when I go
out with my buddy, my string friend, Dr. Markminson, and
we're talking. I mean sometimes I had the stimulation and
the things we get into and he talks to me

(01:29:27):
about his patients and it's just uh said, all that
stuff to be to be worked out and to be
emotionally happy is is a journey of life. And I, um,
you know that's that That's the essence of who I am.
I want to be happy. How many times you've been
married once. I'm married to my lovely wife Bonnie for
forty two years. We've had two children, and hey, we

(01:29:51):
have a goal. We have great life. I'm very blessed.
You're buried in the late seventies. You know, this is
a business that to me, ends a lot of time.
How is she with that? Bonnie Bonnie Bonnie vicariously plays
this game. I mean she doesn't live. You know, she
could sit here with me and she has um. You know,

(01:30:15):
the beginning she traveled with me and went with me.
Now she doesn't go so much, has been gone for
for a while. And she said to me, Um, a
bunch of years ago. Um, it was sent to me
not too long ago. She said, Oh, I stopped going
with you when you made it. I never knew that
she realized that I had made it. She didn't. Uh.
But Bonnie was a great asset. And first of all,

(01:30:38):
I needed to marry a woman who wasn't depressed. Um.
I remember one time taking a beautiful woman to see
Eric Harman at the bottom Line, and this woman wanted
to make it with Eric Harman, not me, and you know,
and I I and but I needed I need somebody,
you who who got the game but wasn't impressed, And

(01:31:00):
that was Bonnie. And I could take Bonnie. She could
work a room. The girls would always love her, would
be Billie's band, and the wives and always liked her.
She was bubbly, she was up, she was beautiful. And
I remember when I went to William Morris and UH
for the first meeting, and I'm sitting there with the
chairman on the West Coast and he's sitting on her

(01:31:22):
and he was sitting in the meeting and this guy's
trying to get laid with my wife right there. But
you know, but Bonnie was she was you know, she
was just a great asset that way, and she understood
the game. She still does now. She sits there and
gives me her her opinions sometimes, you know, many times,
you know, And so she's she it's almost like it's
like I'm a board game to her. She just you know,

(01:31:45):
comments and who she likes and who she doesn't and
this is smart and whatever. But she's she's been uh,
and I've only been lucky with Bonnie, you know. So
it's been uh, it's it's been a great relationship when
we've raised two beauty for children and my son who
runs the company, and uh, my my my confidante and

(01:32:06):
m and my daughter and and it's just it's just been, uh,
I've been very blessed. And though I'm on the road, um,
I mean, you know, I'm doing what I have to do.
And but my base, my my home base has been
a very stable factor of my life. How did you
meet Bonnie? I met her promoting concerts at Suny New

(01:32:29):
Pauls and we and we had a guy who was
our box office. Our box office was you walk into
the entrance of the of the main building and there
was a booth and we were selling tickets for Poco's
Apple Judy college and his girlfriend, Um was Bonnie's roommate.
And one day we had a party after the Poco
show and I saw her and I and I walked

(01:32:52):
there with my buddy Corky, and it was like, oh, man,
I you know. So we had a kind of a
rocky courtship for a few years. But then um we
got married in uh seventy nine, and you know, and
I look back and I look back at the pictures
of us, and I go, man, she what had a
great choice I made? Was she hot? But she's still hot?

(01:33:15):
But she was really hot. But anyway, that was important
to me. She was intelligent, she was beautiful, and uh
and and and she's a great mom. And that's really
what she wanted to do. But when the first few
years of our life, if she had a career, she
would never have been with me. She you know, we
would never have been together. Ifew we would have been apart. So, um,

(01:33:37):
you know, there's good and bad sometimes when your wife
works and doesn't work. But I kind of encouraged her
to follow my path and she didn't, you know when
so we had a lot of experience together. We we
went to it, we went around the world. We went
to Australia and Israel and Japan and took our son
and you know, we we we did a lot of
the road and eventually, I'll tell you one thing that

(01:33:59):
was very funny. Bunny when she knew it wasn't for her.
We were when I was representing the Beach Boys. I mean,
we went to Buffalo, got there, checked into the hotel.
Four hours later, do a day show, gone, Banny, come on,
we're leaving that we have another show tonight in Toronto.
She goes, this isn't for me, you know so, But
but now she's, hey, that's very important. You have to

(01:34:22):
have the uh, the right woman to handle the tembent
and you gotta have a balance. I was always you know,
sensitive to like I wasn't. I wasn't somebody. If I
was a road manager, she could never have made the
marriage work. But as a um, as an agent, I didn't.

(01:34:42):
I didn't go on the road for three weeks. Maybe
I went to Australia, I'd be gone for a week,
but it didn't go. You know, um, you know that
wasn't that and I didn't want that. I mean, there
are a lot of people when they travel, they it's
like there, it's the circus, it's goodbye to your family.
I didn't really have that. I didn't. I didn't. I
had that at times, but never goodbye to see it

(01:35:03):
for two months. It wasn't like that. It wasn't what
I wanted. You've been very successful. What have you done
with all your money? Well, I I try to uh
live comfortably, live live, you know, I try to. You know,

(01:35:24):
I think the American dream would or whether America or
the dream, is to be able to live off your
money and you know, independent of making money. And I
think I've accomplished that, and um so and uh, I
just trying to really you know. Uh it's not like, um,
I have so much money where I can buy a

(01:35:45):
baseball team, which but um, you know, I I you know,
it's uh most of my money. You know. It just
helps me live my life, that's all. It's just me
gives me a lot of freedom. I mean I make,
you know, make good money now and I have a
good lifestyle. But you know, uh nothing, just just preserving myself.

(01:36:07):
We we we we've invested certain charities. I take care
of certain people. I have a brother who's uh schizophrenics
since um, you know, you know, you know that needs
help and care. So a lot of my you know,
some of my giving is taking care of my family
and different different situations. And so okay, now you had

(01:36:31):
a hard times at the beginning. There are people who
are successful and it's all show. They don't count their pennies.
On the other hand, there are people who never forget
where they came from. Where are you at? Like if
you say, okay, it's a gig, Yeah, I'm not flying commercial,
let's higher a plane. Where are you on that continuum?
As far as um, well, I would always choose to

(01:36:54):
fly fly privately when I can, especially in COVID times.
But um, you know, uh, you know it's um some
of the things that I've obtained materially, I would never
work for them. I would never, like, um, bust my
ass to have a Bentley or if I if if

(01:37:15):
it ended up happening by what I did, great, But
it's not like I would work for a car or
I never worked to make money and you know, like
I'm going to try to be rich, I never thought
of that. That was never my goal. My goal was
this was Everything that happened to me was more of
an outgrowth of me just doing my job well. And

(01:37:38):
then I had to learn about money. But it wasn't
um you know, I never was somebody who had, oh,
this is my dream. My dream is to have this
house or I own this place in Florida. And I
never thought that way. It just it was just what
came out of the success of doing my job well.

(01:37:58):
It was never never thought about that. Let's assume you're
on vacation. You on the phone, Yes, okay, I'm I'm
I'm seven, I'm I'm neurotically on. This is the business
that nobody needs you. I mean, it's a it's a
luxury business. And if you're not available, you think I

(01:38:19):
can sit there and get a phone call from a
manager or um and and somebody, and and my responses,
I'm sorry, I'm ondcation, you know. And And when I
when I started, I swore that nobody would outwork me,
not that I would never lose my job because of

(01:38:39):
my effort. And that still maintains. And as long as
I want this, which I still do. That's what it takes.
This is what to me, this is what it takes
to keep it together. I can get an email at
ten thirty on a Saturday night with an author. You know,
am I responding right away? No? But I'm all Emily,

(01:39:00):
will you know, I'm I'm in the game, whatever it takes.
That's you know. I I like my Sunday's. I love Christmas,
I love you know, certain holidays where I don't think
I'm gonna be bothered. But you know, there are sometimes
there's more that goes on on a Sunday that goes
on on a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. There are certain people
that you did are communicating differently. So, um, it's it's

(01:39:26):
a lifestyle. It's just it's all you know. And in
certain ways, a lot of my life and my family
life has always revolved around my business and where does
dad have to go? Where's Billy working with Steph Leopard?
The younger generation in the agency business and a lot
of businesses can do everything via email. Older generation is

(01:39:47):
all phone, Where are you in that game? I am
Probably I do. I do phone, but I do a
lot of emails. A matter of fact, my wife would
would sit there with me and I can be on
the beach, and she said, oh yeah, not getting that
many calls. I've been off the email, you know, So yes,
I'm emailing, as a matter of fact, what I do
every night, and sometimes it's it's painful because I don't

(01:40:10):
go through all my emails. During the day I'm doing
I'm calling, I'm I got. At night, I sit there,
I go through my emails and I make notes. I'm
always making notes so I'm prepared for the next day.
I have things to move along, different processes that I'm
working on, so I'm always writing down lists of what
I need to do the next day. But a lot
of email. Email is taken over a lot um. I

(01:40:34):
speak on the phone a bit, but not nearly as
much it used to be, obviously a little phone, but
I do a lot of emailing. Okay, we were sitting
in the House of Blues at a Newgen concert like
a decade ago, and you were telling me two things.
You were telling me you're gonna sell your company again,
and you were also telling me you were gonna do
the monthly gig at Madison Square Garden with Billy. So

(01:40:59):
that is your idea, tell me that whole story where
it is today. Well, the Billy the Billy thing is uh. Well,
but first of all, I did sell my company again
to Ron, and uh so that that that did happen,
and uh, you know, and I'm very I'm very proud

(01:41:21):
of that. And and I've had a great relationship with
Want through these years and and and the great How
often do you have contact with Ron? Sometimes I can
we we email, you know, Sometimes I can email Ron
several times, uh, you know in a week. Sometimes we
can go by, you know, not speak for a month.
But the interesting thing is is and Ron is very

(01:41:44):
good at letting his entrepreneurs be their entrepreneurs. So most
people don't even know I have ownership. I am still
perceived very much as an independent agent and an agency
and uh Ron, and but and that and that's perfect.
I mean if there's many times, like I say, and

(01:42:05):
that's and that's why I don't function much differently than
I did prior to my relationship with Ron. And for
that fact, even one was with Bob Sullivan. Because I'm
in the kind of business you can own my money,
but you can't own me because I don't own me.
I my artists owned me. I my artists run my life,
not me, so you can there's only you know, I

(01:42:29):
if and if I don't represent my artists, well I
will lose them, so you need me to represents. You
can't control me because they do. And that's so to me.
I I always there's no such thing as owning me.
You you can own my money, but you can't own
me because, um, it doesn't exist. I'm you know, the

(01:42:50):
artists are who supplies us with our income? Okay, the
Billy story So um Billy play. Uh closed Shaye Stadium
in two thousand and eight, which was, um, maybe the
greatest gig of that I've ever been involved with in

(01:43:10):
my life. I remember right after the gig, Body and
I flew down to Anguila. It took us a week
to come down. It was like it was just this
electric hi. I mean, um, you know it was whether
it was Steven Tyler and Don Henley and John Mayer
and um, it was just a Roger Daltrey. It was

(01:43:30):
just who's who. And the funny thing about that is
the Mets had um come to us and we we
we and they wanted us to play the year before
at Shaye Stadium and um because they wanted McCartney to close.
And I said, We're only playing Shafe Stadium if we close.

(01:43:52):
So and and if you didn't get McCartney you got
no butt and and about I don't know. Six months
later they came back and said, you can close, and um,
ironically McCartney did close because he came to say stadium
and um, you know, ended the concert with Billy doing

(01:44:14):
uh let it be And I saw her standing there
and I remember, um. On on the way home, Dave Howard,
who was the Met executive at the time when we
made to deal with he is on the phone. Misses, hey, Dave,
you got your cake and you ate it really close
and you got McCartney. So but it was well, that
whole the whole thing was just uh spectacular. So here's Billy,

(01:44:38):
who's so iconic in New York. How do you follow
up Shay Stadium? We played Yankee Stadium, the old Yankee Stadium.
We had played the Giant Stadium, you know multiple times
with Elton John What do you do? And and and
and and uh So one night, Um, I was in
Turks and Tikos with my Fami Emilee and with Ja Marciano,

(01:45:01):
who at that time was president of the Garden and
now obviously one's a g and and out of that
dinner evolved the idea of doing a once a month
in and it didn't happen for a couple of years later.
Remember J and I we actually had a deal in place,
and uh when we did it, um, you know, uh,

(01:45:21):
and then the Garden and Jay was now no longer there,
and the Garden came and they talked about making Billy
a franchise, and the Knicks and the Ranges and and uh,
you know, I believe we would sell out twelve the
first year, which was in two thousand fourteen. That I believe,
because in two thousand and six we had sold out
twelve and I think the record at the time was

(01:45:43):
the Dead had sold out like thirteen or Bruce or whatever.
And so the idea once we went on that we
would sell twenty four two years once a month, and
we sell nineteen thousand, we sell the whole building. But
the idea that we could possibly sell twenty four was
just amazing to me. Well we did it. We saw

(01:46:05):
that the twenty four and now we're up to seventy. Um,
we're up to seventy three. We actually have six shows
that have been rescheduled UM that we're supposed to take
place since the virus, so we're really up to seventy nine.
When we finished next April, we're starting this again. Billy

(01:46:25):
returns to the Guarden November five, so we would have
We have been at the Garden for seven years. I
mean we've seen people go through college, We've seen people
go from high school, they graduated, we've seen people have children.
It's you know, we say, hey, you know, watch seven
years go by, and we are now up to like

(01:46:45):
I said, we finished the seventy nine, will he'll be
up to his eight show is something like a hundred
and thirty something lifetime, which I've been to every one
of them, and it's it's it's it's a phenomena. And
I and I remember Billy saying to me at one point,
are you sure this is gonna work? And um, you
know it did. But I tell you the truth, as

(01:47:07):
as as proud as the sighted, and and and and
first of all, it's so amazing to have an artist
that you can represent. You can dream all you want,
but I have somebody that can do it. I mean
that he's capable of doing that, he can actually draw,
that's you know, So the fact that Billy can do this,
and and it's always been my philosophy. I always wanted
to do rock God, rock God things, things that confirm

(01:47:33):
who you are in the world. So if you if
if if, if you are playing um uh stadiums or
doing what you do with the Garden God, that's who
you are. You know, that's you know. And that again
and and that you can do this, uh these kind

(01:47:54):
of events is very very rarefied air, and so I
always looked to do that. I always look to prove
who we are and who he is, to show who
he is. And but one of the proudest things is
that I am of him and his career. That he's
a stadium act. I mean we weren't a stadium ac.

(01:48:15):
I mean this guy could sell a stadium anywhere, and
it's whether it's Kansas City or Buffalo or Green Bay,
and that with no hit record, but it's it's all
a testament to his body of work. But the idea
that in the last eight years we went basically from
an arena ract to clean me up to play every
stadium anywhere is just that is what I am most

(01:48:37):
proud of. That he can do that, and that becomes
that that that existed out there and that that's where
he went and when we were able to do that
with nothing, with nothing more than his catalog is a
great testament to him. And that's something I'm just so
proud about. Is he still into it? Oh yeah, I

(01:49:00):
mean you know he's um. You know, Billy doesn't get
ever too high and too low. But yes, he's I
think he's very proud of it. I mean his Rapino
said in his interview, he is something with you. You
you are what you can sell and what venues you
can play. And and hey, I do certain things because

(01:49:21):
others can't. I mean, you know, we played we we
played in Kansas City, the first show at Coaufman Stadium
with the Royals played baseball thirty eight years. I heard
that I couldn't wait with a hook thirty eight years
with the first show, and we blew it right out.
So I like the way I like to do things,
Like hey, when I hear buffalo and I hear nobody
sells that buffalo over hey, we sold that buffalo on

(01:49:43):
the onset. I mean I like to do things. We
played Fenway Park seven years in a row, We played
Wrigley Field five years in a row. He played Citizens
Bank Bullpark six years in a row. Why because nobody
else can do that you know you can go there once?
Can you go there every year and sell it out?
And we're not the grateful day? Well, well you know
we're not fish. We don't have that. So that's an

(01:50:05):
amazing testament to his work. And so I love doing
things that most don't. They can't Okay, most acts coming
through New York City, they played Medicine Square Garden for
the status. They can't make any money. So I assume
you have a special deal that this is lucrative for

(01:50:26):
you and Billy, I would hope. So, I mean, you know,
not the Okay, let's go back to history for a second.
How did the Olton and Billy thing come together? And
I know Abilly needed an operation? Why did it never
happen again? Well, it came together. I'll tell you. I
remember one night we were in Toronto and I'm saying, hey, Billy,

(01:50:49):
let's do some stadiums, and well, you know when he
was like, well, I don't really think I think we
I don't think it's a bang for the buck for
the fan. We've got to give him somebody else we
should be we should put something together. So we're all
sitting around and and we came up with Elton, and
I said, okay, Um, well, hey Dennis, Well when went

(01:51:11):
to Carey went to call Elton's people. So I call
Howard Rose out of the blue, and this is exactly
how the conversation went. I go, Howard, would you be
interested in going out with us? And Howard goes there's
a pause on the phone, and he goes, how many
nights you think we could sell out Philadelphia? That's how

(01:51:32):
and we sold out three And that's exactly how it
how it it started, and um, and actually it was
so unique in that uh. And I love Howard Rose,
I mean I do, I I had. He was such
a wonderful partner through the whole process and um, and
he represented Elton with the passion that I represented Billy.

(01:51:57):
And we were equal and there was never and he
he never and we we were both and we had
arguments and all kinds of stuff, but he was as
genuine to Elton as I was to Billy, and we
were kind of both in the same position. And it
was it was just, uh, it was great. And we

(01:52:19):
you know, we we played stadiums like the tour remember
started a ninety fourd San Diego, um bill Silver Presents
and uh, it was. It was just an amazing and
today you couldn't. You couldn't put it together because they
don't they don't need each other. Financially, you can't afford it.
What can you do? You can double the prices, you

(01:52:41):
can't get It's almost economically not possible unless worldwide. Who
could sell more tickets? Elton or Billy worldwide? Am I
announcing a reunion too? I mean I know no, no, no,
no not. I'm just asking no when they when you
put the tour together? Okay, I thought was Elton was

(01:53:01):
a bigger act. We're not talking to forget the music,
let's just stock selling tickets, okay. But now at this
late day, it looks like Billy's the bigger act. You know, um,
el you know one thing like like I always believe
with Billy, you know, he was always an underdog. He
never got the notoriety that Bruce, Michael Jackson, a lot

(01:53:24):
of artists Elton, you know, you know, Billy was kind
of we just he just won quietly. Up until the
early nineties, he was the number one selling artist in
in America behind the Beatles. And you know now he
hasn't put out a record since ninety three. But um,
but Elton, you know Elton, you know, I would say

(01:53:47):
probably at that time worldwide. I mean we we got
a lot of exchanges. There were different cities and different countries.
I mean, m Elton. Elton played a lot more England,
and you know, his touring was different. He'd played many
different kind of venues. It wasn't like Elton was just
touring stadiums throughout Europe and then we came along. He

(01:54:08):
would play all kinds of different venues and and things
that that you know, that that the Billy would do.
So I think at the time it was, um, it
worked for both of them. They both could it. Just
it took them up a level. We kind of in
the billy world. We did the arenas, we did the

(01:54:30):
multiple arenas. We needed to go to another level. And um,
it wasn't like we're gonna stary having a hit record.
This was the next level. And um, hey listen, a
lot of artists emulated that package. That was the home
of the of two of the greats. And uh, you
know you'll probably never see it again, at least, you know,

(01:54:53):
you can never say never. I know Billy and Elton
still close or still still communicate, to each other, but
it's it's just um, you know, uh, you know they're
they're they're both you know, it's just it both doing
amazing at this time. I mean, Billy was Elton, now

(01:55:13):
on his retirement tour, has done spectacular business and uh
and Billy Hey quietly has done amazing. I mean, Billy
is is this is what you aspire to be, is
what Billy Joel is doing. Okay, two best shows you
ever saw LED's Zeppe one at the film Worice when

(01:55:35):
I was nineteen. I was sitting in the seventh row
and they were headlining for the first time in America
and they had to prove it. That is still a memory.
I mean it was like the greatest four of musicians
I've ever seen. Robert Plant was the ultimate frontman sexy.
You know, he s took his jeans. I was a
guy who just like this guy. I mean, you know,

(01:55:56):
it's like it wasn't my thing, but you know every
girl wanted fuck him and you know, uh and you
know Page and Bonham and John's it was just bottom was.
It was just incredible and you know, certainly I Billy
at Say Stadium was uh, it was as as great
as it can be. Bruce at the bottom Line. I

(01:56:18):
saw Bruce's bottom line in seventy four and he he
took im talk about the year before born to Run. Yeah,
Bruce when it was an amazing moment that he was
a guy playing this four hundred sea club and he
was breaking around the world as a superstar, and it

(01:56:39):
was like all coming from this little club. It was
just you know, so that that was probably an amazing
moment of watching an artist being celebrated in this bar
that was now becoming a worldwide phenomena. But you know,
Billy at Shay Stadium was h you know, like I

(01:56:59):
say I said before, it took me a week to
come down from that. But um, but Jeppelin at UH
and I was a major Doors fan. I went to
I saw the Doors um multiple times in my um
in my life, and it was Jim Morrison was a
very big influence. You know, it was actually one of
the great influences of my life. Was Terry Knight really

(01:57:23):
Terry Knight in the pack Crook? Well, I don't I
can't speak for what he did internally, and I you know,
but I but he took a band and those days,
in those days, how do to you either be from
England or San Francisco. You how you know it was

(01:57:44):
it was um you know, you had to get radio play,
you had to be hit. And he took three guys
from Michigan who got no airplay, who look who were
supposed to be uncool, and and they got and and
he and they came the biggest band in the world.
They sold out, Chase stayed even seventy two, fastened the Beatles,

(01:58:05):
and his campaign, I mean I emulated and I still do.
And I remember one time Chef Gordon and I when
we when he was talking about the Alice Cooper campaign,
we talked about Terry Knight. But I emulated what this
guy does, what he did, and I still use some
of the things that he did. He'd buy six pages
in Billboard or cash box in those days with pictures

(01:58:27):
of the guys, and I would go and I was,
you know, and I was one of those at the time.
I was a student learning, and I was like, they
have to be big. Look at this, you know. I mean,
he sold me on how big they were before they were.
And I've used through the years some of his strategies
in the marketing and the making of an artist. It

(01:58:51):
was like, if you tell the industry, they will tell
the public. That's your best shot. So but he did.
I remember one time on the US to the Home album,
he took his billboard out on Times Square. It was
just huge, and there was a painter strike that their
pictures were hanging on that billboard for months, and it

(01:59:11):
was just it was like only people that were stars,
big stars, would get this, and they weren't yet, but
they had to be. So he sold me and I
bought into it, and and years later I represented them
for a while. I represented them to kind of when
it was the end of the Grand Fund, when Mark,
Donnie and Mel were still all together and David Fisher

(01:59:33):
was managing them at the time, I had a chance
of representing them for a while and it was so
and I was a fan. It was one of the
few times I was like, really, I'm such a fan,
but I was a fan of the phenomenon. Okay, if
you got the original members back together as their demand
for that today, you mean for for Grand Fund right today?

(01:59:56):
You know, Um, there's some demands. I mean, you know, uh,
it's it's kind of been warded down over the years.
I don't know, um, you know, I'm sure it certainly
wouldn't be the demand that it was, and it's prime.
You know, it's not like uh some other combinations would

(02:00:16):
would that if if this member came back to the band,
that would enhance them. Anybody you have who you don't represent,
that you'd like to represent, we have a vision how
to do it? Oh, I think that all the time.
I'm I'm I'm a student. I think of things. I

(02:00:37):
wouldn't say that because I'd like the artist to hear it,
but I it wouldn't really be fair. But I think
of certain artists that should be doing things that would
enhance them if they're doing arenas, why they're how they
can get the stadiums, what they're not doing. Oh, absolutely,
I definitely see that. I mean, I definitely think I
can help move some people's career to hey, Leopard and

(02:01:00):
playing stadiums, def Leopards playing stadiums for the second tour
in a row in America, I mean, you know, and
making a huge money. I mean that wasn't happening. Now.
There's a perception def Leopards a fucking a huge band
and and and and crew. So you know, but there's
definitely things that um, I would love to do if
I had the opportunity to. You know, that's you know,

(02:01:24):
make the help, enhance people to be bigger, make make
moves dea Leopard lose, leaves, Q Prime goes to Howard Kaufman.
How do you remain the agent? I used to go
to l A when you when you said to me,
um earlier you said, um, you know, to go on
the street to go to clubs. I visited managers and

(02:01:45):
I used to visit Howard and I didn't have any
clients with him, but he would see me. And and
then when you know, when Leopard left and went to Howard,
Howard stayed with me. That's that, you know, just from
those meetings, he stayed with me. And I became very
close to Howard. And we'll be you know, as a

(02:02:07):
matter of fact, to give me poison you really admired
might work. We had a very good relationship and um,
you know he uh, you know, I was fortunate. I
I could have lost it at that moment, but um,
he stayed with me. That's as simple as that. And
then when he passed, Mike Kobe Ash has done a

(02:02:27):
great job with the band. Uh you know everything's you know, Um, Mike,
I have a great relationship and he's helped elevate I mean,
Howard rest in peace. He'd be sitting here rooting Mike
and me on, like you guys have done such a
great job taking it, taken the mantle to the next step,
and we're so proud of it. On that note, I

(02:02:48):
think we're gonna end for today. This has been wonderful. Dennis.
You know I want to do you because you're opening honest,
You'll hold no punchers. Thanks so much for taking the time.
Bob A lot of fun. It's nice listen to myself
tell all these things because I never did, but it
was it was cool. I like, like fun. Thank you, Bob.
Until next time. This is Bob Love sex

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Bob Lefsetz

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