Dion

We discuss Mr. DiMucci's early years in the Bronx, getting a record deal, assembling the Belmonts, going on the road, getting on and off drugs, AA, his life in Miami, royalties, his new work and... Dion has been there and back, he's full of insight, AND HE'S STILL MARRIED TO RUNAROUND SUE!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left That's Podcast.
My guest today is truly alleged the one and only
Di diabb. It's a pleasure to be with you. Good
to be here. Okay, you just put out to Christmas singles.
What's the story without? Well, uh, the first one I

(00:31):
wrote was, you know, it's Christmas and Uh. I was
sitting around with a couple of friends of mine and
we were saying, the world could really use a shot
of some love and harmony and transcendence and and uh
peace and serenity or some togetherness. You know, we were

(00:54):
just I said, you know, I said, Christmas is the
grace that uh changed my life. So I'm gonna write
a Christmas song. So I thought, now, what does the
blues man do or a rock and roller do when
he when he writes a Christmas song? You know that
there's a there's a a bragging tradition. You know, I'm
from the Bronx. I was like, you know that, like

(01:16):
the Wanderer. You know, it's like a bragging tradition. So
I wrote a song about a guy that bought his
girlfriend a perfect present and he can't wait for her
to open it because he's he can't wait to see
the look on her face, you know, he you know,
and that happens only once every twenty years. You get

(01:36):
the perfect gift. So that's what the song is about.
So and then when Joe Bonamasa heard it, he said, Dion, man,
you are prolific. You just keep cranking him out. I
want to play on this. So he joined me and
we we made a little video and uh and uh.
I did the song with a few friends of mine

(01:58):
and it was just a lot of fun to do.
You know. The second song again, I I just thought,
you know, we need something to bring us together, you know,
and Christmas is my favorite holiday. I just I don't
know something about you know, it's it's a life is
about giving, and that's what Christmas is about, you know.

(02:19):
And I try to keep the spirit lady around. It's
the spirit of true charity, you know, like just giving
with it, uh you know. Uh. So we I put
this song together and welcoming Christmas and sharing it with
with people, and when I finished it, I just thought

(02:42):
of Amy Grant. I've known Amy Grant uh uh since
she was nineteen years old. I when I met her
when she was nineteen fell in love with a voice.
She had this song El Shadai and my Father's Eyes,
and so we've been friends all these years. I I
just called her up. I said, Amy, I have a song.

(03:02):
And she heard it and she said, Dion, I love
this type of thing where you don't plan. It's just
in the flow, you know. And she says, yeah, I'll
do it. So she smiled through it and knocked it
out and just just she made it something sublime. I
thought it was good when I finished it, but she
really It shows you how limited I am. You know,

(03:23):
when when uh, when an artist, any artists, you get
somebody that distinctive like Joe Bonamassa or Amy Grant. They
they they just infuse, uh anyway attract that I did
with such wonder They make it sublime. So how do

(03:45):
you know Joe Bonamassa, Joe, Uh, it's crazy. His manager
must live about. He's in walking distance from me. His manager,
Roy Weisman. And I was walking one day around the
lake and I met Roy Weisman and we became friends.
I have a lake in my neighborhood here. It's like

(04:06):
a mile and two point too, you know, So we
walk around and uh, we have some great conversations. Uh
and uh, he says, Joe is coming into town. And
Joe comes over the house, you know, and uh, he's
just a a regular guy, likes to pick up my guitars.

(04:26):
We like to talk about the blues and the and
the history of what we're doing and the roots of it.
And we we have a we resonate, you know, with
the same artists. A lot of what connects what we're doing,
you know, from the thirties and forties, and you know

(04:47):
American roots music and this album. You know, we're in
covid era. So how did you actually do the recording?
Everybody recorded in their own space, and then you put
it together. You know, I put this album together. It
was complete. It seemed like the day I finished it,
we went and shut down. I think, like somewhere in March,

(05:08):
I had this is this is the album, not the
Christmas tracks, the album with all original and all these
special stars. Absolutely. Yeah, it's called Blues with Friends and
I have I tell you, it's crazy, Bob. I know,
we started out talking about the Christmas songs, but I

(05:29):
went in I had these fourteen songs that I had
accumulated over a few years because I was working on
a play and I never went into the studio. But
I had some time. I thought, let me go in
and cut these things. So I go into the studio.
I knocked the fourteen songs out in two days, just

(05:52):
me and my guitar. Well, now is this a studio
in your house or use a local studio? Would you use? Uh?
A friend of mine has a studio. Right time I
say a studio, it's a room in his house. He
has a he has all the equipment, high tech equipment.
I sat on a folding chat, took my guitar. He says,

(06:12):
sing them like you sing them in your house. I
took the guitar out, I went through all the I
went through about eight songs the first day. Uh. And
the second day I came back, I knocked out about
six of them. So I started, uh, you know, brought
in a bass player, drummer, keyboard, you know rhads. I

(06:38):
love roads. Yeah, I just love that. So so I
I built up some tracks and then I had something.
I said, Man, these things are great, this is something special.
I really felt it was. You know, I know how
to write a song, I know how to make a record.
But then this started this. This uh something I've I've

(07:01):
never experienced before. Again, Joe Bonamassa started it. I think
he's the catalyst. I think it's fair to say that.
You know, he gave me the vision for it because
he heard blues coming on one of the songs on
the Blues with Friends album and he he heard it
and he said, Diane, I gotta play on this. He's so,

(07:23):
I said, be my guest man. You know, Joe Bonamassa.
This guy's mesmerizing, masterful, you know, monster guitarists. I said, yeah,
I never knew what he Listen, Bob, this this is
the This is the thing about this. It's like I
usually get a guitar player to come into the studio
and you go, yeah, give me this, give me that,

(07:44):
and he plays, you know, and and he fills the
track in. But you when you ask an artist, you
don't know what they're hearing, what they're they're very distinctive.
It's like they come up with something that's not even
on your radar. So he picked he picked up a
slide guitar. I mean, you know, he started playing slide

(08:06):
on it, and which I didn't hear. I really didn't
hear slide on it. But when he started playing, what
I was hearing was almost like a horn section, like
you you could hear and his playing. You think you're
you're listening to the Apollo Theater band with with headed

(08:27):
by Miles Davis and John Coltrane with King Curtis, you know,
on the side. But because he's playing this stuff and
it's yeah, it's just crazy good. You know, it's fascinating
what he did. So, uh, I'm listening to this thing
in my house, I'm thinking, what, uh this this is

(08:51):
something really special. I mean, I thought the song was good,
just the record I'm trying to make, but he made
it something spec It's like you go to the Olympics
to jump nineteen feet at the pole vault and I
don't know, some wind takes you three ft and you
break the world record. You know. So that's the way

(09:11):
it felt. So I then as I started listening to
the tracks, I said, you know, I think I'm I
told Wayne Hood, who who is the engineer co producer
with me. I said, Wayne, I think I'm gonna call
Patty Scalfe for this song. Him to him, she has

(09:34):
that Jersey soul. She she's like the Jersey soul girl.
She'll add something to this song. I know it. So
I sent it to Patty and I thought, here's the deal, Bob,
this is the this is the great part about why
this album was so much fun to make. Sometimes albums

(09:55):
excruciating hard work. This thing was like I would is
like I felt like I was riding a wave, you know. Uh.
I sent it to Patty. I thought she was gonna
echo some of the lines I, you know, sang, and
she was gonna hit some harmony, which was very uh

(10:17):
you know obvious. You know, maybe she'll sing harmony here
and there. This is what I'm thinking, this is why
I make a record. But no, She goes in and
lays her voice or stacks her vocals about twelve times,
and she captures the wind that the Holy Spirit on
the on the on the record, you know. And then
Bruce walks and he says, what are you doing? And

(10:38):
she says, I'm doing a record with Dihon. He says,
I love this song. He says, ask him if I
could play a solo. She she she calls me. She says,
Bruce wants to play a solo, And I said, do
I have to pay him? So so I said, okay,
could you know so she uh, so he played a

(11:00):
solo on it. So I got, you know, this this
is the fun I was. And then I I thought,
well me, and I asked, you know, I have Bruce
and Petty. Let me call Stephen van Zan. He's he's
a friend. We go way back, used to we we
played together in the seventies, you know, and we've been
friends all these years. So you know, he jumped on

(11:22):
a song called way Down. So that's how it started,
you know. And I just and and Bob, I kid
you not. I just didn't send the songs out from
here on in like to just two people because of
who they were or you know. Uh, I was listening
to stuff and I'm a big fan of like Sonny

(11:45):
Landreth's guitar slide guitar playing. I knew the song, I
got the queue and needed a slide guitar player that
I knew and and I thought, this guy, this guy
is the best. So and Sonny was just thrilled to
do it. Some anti fish. You know, I know she's
from New Orleans. I mean, I mean she lives that

(12:05):
nobody in New Orleans place bad nobody. So I I
you know, she jumped on it. So it was just fun.
Every time, either I was in the studio with people
like Little Stephen and John Hammond, or I had to
send it to send them the recording, like uh, you know,

(12:26):
like Brian sets up he was in the Midwest somewhere
I had I I sent them Uptown number seven. But
I heard him on it. It was like a rockabilly thing,
you know, so um you know, it just it went
from there and it was exciting. Man, it was like fun.
It was just it was like every time uh, I

(12:50):
got someone to contribute their vision and what they were
hearing onto the track I did. It was so exciting
for me because it was like a gift. It was
almost like unwrapping a present or something, you know. And
I found out something about myself at this age, all

(13:14):
the years that I've been around, man, I hate to
ask anybody for anything. You know. I was brought up,
you know, you do it yourself, you know, like a
pride thing. You know. I don't know what it was.
I just never said, hey, I could use your help.
Never that would have been like, I don't know weakness,
I don't know the neighborhood, I was in this macho
Italian crap. You know, I don't know what it was,

(13:37):
but I'm telling you did I appreciate people these acts
of service or the or the the giving or the
time they put into uh my thing. It was like
it was like truly a blessing. Okay, how did you

(13:58):
get Van Morrison and Jeff back on the record. Well,
I'll go with from Marrison first. Van Morrison is my
wife's favorite singer and I know him. We go out
for dinner. Every time he comes close to my house.

(14:19):
He gives me a call. Let's let's go back. How
do you know Vann Morrison? I met Van Morrison back
at the Spectrum in Philadelphia with the Moody Blues, back
when he had uh, you know, moon dance out and
we became friends. I'm just a little more interested. So
you were out the Spectrum, we were on the show together. Oh,

(14:41):
you were on the show together. Okay, we were backstage
and uh, I just we started talking and we both
uh we hit it up because we we both had
something in common with Bert Burns. Uh with an Then
again you start you start like bonding on on people,

(15:06):
you know, you know, with John Lee Hooker and and
jazz and the horn players at the Apollo. You know,
I was telling him one time, I said, I said Van,
I said, you know, I said, the when I put
these guys together and I recruited what became Dion and

(15:27):
the Belmonts. I said, uh, the way I used to
do the arrangements for the wander or Runaround Sue or
Ruby Baby. I said, when I heard the the the
horn section at the Apollo, I would just try to
imitate the horn section. So I give these guys parts,
you know, like Ruby Baby. It's like Rue Man, it's

(15:52):
like a horn section. Madd Ant and dad at and
Dad or the Wanderer. We were we're going like that
lola la la la up. But it's like uh bot
blood do and do it out out and do that ut.

(16:13):
Now you know it's it's like horns. So when I
when I was explaining that stuff to him and he said, man,
I want to sing like a horn, I said me too.
I said, I'm a rhythm singer. I don't hold notes.
I like to but that. But let her doesn't do
that and do that. But do you know, so, I said,

(16:35):
I'm a rhythm singer. You give me a beat and
we just bonded on that stuff, you know, and so
we've been fresh. So I always told my wife, I said, listen,
Van Morrison and I are soul brothers. Man. She said, no,
he's bad, you know, She's give me all this stuff,
but she loves Van Morrison. She's like you get in

(16:56):
her car. She has twelfth Van Marrison c ds, so
still has a CD playing right of couse. So anyway,
I I I asked Van. I thought, you know, let
me ask him, and I wanted him to play Actually
I wanted him to play horn, and he said no,
I'd rather sing with you. So I wrote this song.

(17:17):
I had this song called I Got Nothing. So I said, man,
when you got Van Mark, I told Susan. I said, man,
when you sing it with Van Morrison, nothing is good
enough is more than enough, you know. I said that
it was so much fun doing this record with him,
because you know, he's he's just so free a band

(17:39):
and he yells, he's just so not he's so honest,
so natural, you know, And you know I'm like that
when I'm inside a song, I just like expressing it.
I don't produce anything, you know, I express it. I
never sing a song the same twice, you know. So,
so I I enjoyed that and it came out good,
came out good. Then well, I had this beautiful ballad Bob.

(18:05):
It's called I Can't Get Started Again. I Can't Get
Started Again. I'm i'm, I'm listening to it. I'm thinking.
You know, Jeff Beck is the only guitar player that
can make me cry. I mean, I've I've heard him
do Ori ears that from La Traviato. You know, I

(18:27):
don't know he he can make me cry? So I
you know, Susan says, I don't know Jeff Beck. You
know he's he's pretty much, you know, isolated out. You know,
I don't. I don't know if he's gonna respond. I
asked him. I I wrote him an email. He said,
I'd love to do it. He said, in fact, I'd

(18:48):
love to put the song on my new album. I said,
you got it, so he It was that simple. He
was very easy to work with. He was so generous
with me. It was it was incredible. So, okay, how
do you know Jeff Beck? Well? I met Jeff Beck

(19:09):
at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. He he
played a song he did uh uh. People get ready,
you know, and he just amazed me. You know he uh,
you know, I know him from his you know, early recordings,
whether with you know Male or the you know people

(19:31):
he was with early on and you know followed him,
and you know, he's just he's just a gold standard
bearer because when people are in the room with Jeff Beck,
they like at attention. You know, he's just something he
he and he does it just with his hands. I know,
no pick, It's amazing. He's got gold in his hands.

(19:54):
He's like, uh, he's got a touch that I don't know.
He doesn't use, he doesn't use effects, he doesn't use
a whole lot of crazy sting. He just plays with
his hands and he gets the sound. It's just I
don't know, it's incredible. It's it's just it's amazing what

(20:17):
he does. I was just grateful to get him on
the song. I'm so grateful that he said yes, Okay.
A couple of things you are literally alleged. Do you
find when you're in these situations like the Rock and
Roll Hall of Fame, people just are drawn to you.
They want to meet you. I don't know, I don't

(20:38):
I really don't know. But about that maybe some of
those guys voted for me. I really don't know. But uh,
but you know when I called Jeff Beck and started
talking to him, you know, he he did an album
called Crazy Legs, and uh, you know he uh, you know,

(20:59):
Geen Vincent had had a guitar player that uh uh
never left Virginia, you know, but uh, Jeff Beck honored
him by uh Cliff Gallup. He he honored him by
doing this whole album around Cliff Gallup because the guy
was just a great player, you know. And uh I

(21:19):
was talking to Jeff about that. I said, man, when
you made that album, Gene Vincent must have been smiling
down on you, you know, because uh, this guy is
just so I don't know, he's the best. You know,
people don't real They talk about Clapton, they talk about Hendricks.
I don't care. Jimmy Page. Beck is the best. I agree,

(21:40):
I agree, and I love Joe Bonamas. I think he's
lots a whole new generation he's got. Yeah, well you
know it comes down from you got Muddy Waters, Howling
Wolf and all all those guys, you know, skip James
Robert Johnson. Then you get that next generation with Jeff
Beck and Claude Then and Jimmy Page and Joe Bonamas

(22:02):
is the nu kid on the block. Okay, you talk
about all these people are literally high profile legends themselves.
You say you don't like to ask for favors, but
are you someone to use the old term, who has
a pretty big rolodex and stays in touch with these
people or this just because you're making the album it
came together? Yeah, a little of both, you know, a

(22:27):
little of both. I like Jon Hammond, Rory Blocks. You know,
most most of the people on here on the album.
You know, I I see periodically and have dinner with
him and UH know them. But some of the people
I just know and you know, I don't go out
with them, but you know, I don't see them like

(22:49):
daily or you know, frequently. But you know how it
is when you have a friend, it's like you don't
see him for five years and you pick up it's
like right there, It's like absolutely, you didn't move an inch,
you know, It's like you just continue. So um, you know,
it was a little of both, you know. Okay. Um, Now,

(23:11):
the music business has certainly changed since you started. When
it was a lot of independence and it was all
about the hits. Today, even a Gigiana kid is nowhere
close to what it was in the sixties. People have
no idea these songs would play, everybody would know them.
So when you make music today and it's harder to

(23:31):
get the message out and you know inherently for everybody,
the impact is lower, is it hard to keep your motivation? Well,
I don't know. I feel like I've I did more
in this in this last year, and then I didn't
the last twenty years for some reason. But so I'm

(23:53):
I'm motivated just because I was, uh like, I love
talking about this album because it's I don't feel like
I'm talking about me so much. It's just that I've
been surrounded by these incredible artists, so I got got
into their lives a little and just to appreciate what
they do and being connected with them and and them
doing me such a giving me such a gift. You know,

(24:15):
it's it was a it was just a nice time
of life for me. You know, it was uh just enjoyable.
And you know, the to enjoy relationships like that, Uh,
the the impact, I know what you I know what
you're talking about. You know, there was a time when

(24:37):
you come out with an album and it sold six million.
None none of mine. But you know what I'm saying, uh,
And I don't really like. There's a kid across the
street from me. I've known known him since he was born.
His name is Zach Cone. He has a he has
a group called Red Drum Society. But this kid used

(25:00):
to come in my house, I would say. He would
ask me how to play guitar, and I taught him
how to play guitar. And then a couple of years
ago he said I can't sing. I said, yeah, you
could sing, Zach. I took him out on the street
and we started yelling. And now he's singing. And now
he has a number one EP on the blues charts,
Red Drum Society. And and I go to him and say, Zack,

(25:23):
what kind of business am I in? Because I don't
now he's teaching me about them. I taught him about
the art, he's teaching me about the business. He's teaching
me about the meta tags and the and the UH,
the analytics and the and the UH on the back
end the Facebook and in the back end of Instagram

(25:44):
and all you know who. I didn't know what what
he was talking about you know, but uh, you learned
about it about these uh you know, uh the marketing
part of it because he's doing it alone, and uh
he knows the inner workings of it, you know, so
we're helping each other. It's crazy, but it's a great business.

(26:07):
It absolutely is. Let's talk about the blues. Certainly all
of the uh British guitarists were influenced by the Delta
Blues people who were tend to be ignored in America
until college kids picked him up in the sixties and
they started to book him. Were you always a fan
of the blues and these blues musicians? No, I grew up.

(26:29):
I grew up. Well, I did hear John Lee Hooker.
I did hear Jimmy Reid. Jimmy Reid's part of my
d n A. Uh, that's why I got into this business, Bob. Like,
I heard a song by Hank Williams on my radio
when I was like ten years old, and it just
that was it? What song was it? It was called

(26:51):
honky Tonk Blues. It threw me right on the road.
There was a little radio station that came out of Newark,
New Jersey, the the Don Larkins show. He was an
army guy and he got into country music. He started
he was a DJ. I used to run home from
from junior High school just to get the last twenty

(27:13):
minutes of it because it was like from three to four.
So uh, and I and I, you know, this is
after I heard Hank Williams. I tracked it down who
was playing it, and you know, stuff like that, and
and then I went. I went up to Fordham Road.
There was a in the bronx Um. There was a

(27:36):
little record shop called Cousins Record Shop. Luke cha Ketty
owned it, and I asked Lou I said, I heard
a song by Hank Williams, um honky tonk blues. And
he pulled the record out and I I went upstairs
and put it on the turntable with the needle and listen.
I said, that's I want this. And I heard the

(27:59):
back side of it, and I learned my uncle got
me a guitar, and I start. I just was mesmerized
by this stuff. You know, it's hard to explain what
what that does to you when you hear it, you know,
like because it threw me on the road, you know it. Uh,
it was so engaging, so Uh, Luca Ketty said, I'll

(28:19):
just give me a number. I'll call you when every
every new Hank Williams song comes out, I said, please.
I fell in love with this guy. Then I heard
Jimmy Reid, and then I was a weird kid man
because in my neighborhood people was they were listening to
Jimmy Riselli and Jerry Vale, and uh, you know, here
I am listening to Jimmy Reid and Hank Williams, you know,

(28:42):
and you know when you hear something like, uh, you know,
Jimmy Reid, I want I wanted to I wanted to
communicate like Hank Williams, and I wanted to groove like
Jimmy Reid. So uh, that's how I got into that.
And what was the question? No, I forgot. You know,
it's your affection for the blues, the generation of that,

(29:05):
and when it happened. Yeah, well, well I I started.
I I kind of digested that music and and started
to make my own records. And when I got to
run around Sue, which is probably a a cleverly disguised
blue song, and the and the Wander is a blue song,
and Ruby Baby is a blue song. And Drip Drop

(29:28):
is a blue song. And I was up at Columbia
and right across the hallway, which was only about three
ft four ft they had hallways, and John Hammond Sr.
His office was right across the hallway from Tom Wilson,
who was producing me. He produced Dylan too. I was

(29:48):
the first rock and roll assigned to Columbia Records, you know,
before it became Sony Records then. Uh. John Hammond asked
me one day, I was I was sitting on on
the pianos bench with Aretha Franklin and we was we
were doing got to tell this story. How are you

(30:09):
sitting on the bench with the Wreatha Franklin who was
signed to Columbia before she goes to Atlantic and has
her big hits, right, And they didn't know what to
do with both of us. They were giving us Al
Jolson songs. They gave Aretha, I don't know, you know,
some kind of rock, a Bye My Baby, but a
Dixie mellow, you know. And they gave me a couple

(30:30):
of Al Jolson songs. I liked al Jolson. My father
used to listen to him and him I liked he
was you know, he just had some swagger back then.
You know. Now it's a little corny body, you know,
but he was great. So yeah, but tell me the
story of meeting in Wreatha Franklin and sitting on the
piano bench. We both were a recording uh, and Bob

(30:51):
Mercy was uh producing her Al Jolson songs and producing
my Al Jolson songs. So it's it. And I'm sitting
in his office was and the pianos right near the doorway,
and we're doing drip drop, you know, the roof League
and in the rain falling, No my head, drip drop,

(31:11):
I said, the roof fifth League and in the rainfall
and no my head hand I need him mop I
crossed so hot, tear all and down in my bed
head drip ity drop and uh, you know Hammond John
Hammond walks, He says, hey, uh, he says, come in

(31:33):
my office when you're finished. So I walk in there
and he says, Dean, you know you got a flare
for the blues. You know. He says, uh, I gotta
play it. He says, my son is getting into the blues.
He said, uh. So he plays me something of his size. Man,

(31:54):
that's pretty cool. He takes out the Robert Johnson album
this is one, Bob. This is before Clapton probably heard
Crossroads and John Hammond plays me preaching blues and Crossroads,
and I was mesmerized. I said, I need one of you.

(32:17):
Gotta get get me one of those albums. And I
brought it home and nobody when I played it, nobody
would there was going, what the hell are you listening to?
They thought it was like Chinese music. They didn't know
what the hell. I thought, you don't hear what he's doing.
I thought it was I thought it was unbelievable. I
got crazy and I started really getting into the You know,

(32:40):
I did all kinds of blues songs in the early
sixties up at Columbia with the the Apollo Theater guys.
I did Spoonful by Howling Wolf early in the sixties,
way before Cream or any any of those guys have
a touched now. I was up at Serious Radio and

(33:01):
and Peter Townsend and uh Roger walked in. They because
they heard I was doing an interview, and they said, Dian,
we love that song Spoonful. How the hell did you
record that song? We want to know. I said, I

(33:23):
was listening to Howland Wolf. I loved the song. One
of my favorite Holland Wolf's songs. I said, I had
this Birdland Gibson guitar, and I got into tremlow because
Abou Diddley and I went up to Colombia and I
had all the guys from the Apollo Theater band there,
Buddy Lucas and Stick Sevens on drums, and Panama Francis

(33:49):
and percussion, all these Mickey guitar, Baker and or Concurs,
all these guys and and they would encourage me, and
I said, I just said follow me, and I sang it.
I said, that's the record. So they said, that's one
of our favorite records. Who you know who? Who knows?

(34:13):
You know? If to all these years, somebody tells me
that it's crazy because you never know who you're reaching
or who's listening. Well, you're at the I of the hurricane.
That's why I say, if I write something, I don't
know what people are talking about. People the same type
of thing. These records have a long life. Let's go
back to you growing up though. You go to school,

(34:33):
good student, bad student, popular kid, unpopular kid. I wasn't unpopular, No,
I was pretty uh in the mix, you know, Uh?
I wasn't the greatest student. I was really good with math.

(34:55):
I was a good I was good with math, but
I had problem hims. I had like these, I'd get
in fights and I don't know I had these. You know,
I think it's you know, my father never had a
real job, so when my uncle's and everybody got together,
you know that they would put him down at the

(35:16):
dinner table. They'd be like laughing at him. And at
seven years old, I must have said to myself, nobody's
ever gonna treat me like that. I'll break their freaking face.
You know, I got this attitude. So I was like
like this angry, like, don't ever, I don't ever. Yeah,
I'm nobody's joke, you know. I'm like, you know, I

(35:37):
didn't want to be treated. I must have sworn out
to heaven or you know, vowed an oath that no one.
I got this attitude, you know, So that's what I
You know, I was like a good kid. I wanted
to be a good kid. I was a weird kid
because I'm into Hank Williams, I'm into Jimmy Reid, and

(35:59):
I'm reading St. Thomas a coinas I'm like interested in
blues and God. I wanted to know who God was,
where he was. You know, I just that's that was
my deal. Okay. But I was a good I was
good with sports. You know. I had a good eye,
hand coordination, you know, whatever sport was around. But you know,

(36:20):
one day I challenged this guy up at Mount St.
Michael on track on the track because I thought I
was fast. We got on the track. I want to
tell you something I forgot about track. After I raised
this guy. I forgot. I said, that's not that's not it.
I'm not going there because I couldn't be best at it.

(36:42):
So I picked up the guitar and I started, you know,
writing or trying to do something there. Okay, tell me
more about your father. He didn't have a job. Where
did the money come from? Your mother worked too? Yeah?
My mother worked. She was a work She died a
hundred and four. She worked. She worked down in the

(37:03):
in the Millinary district in Manhattan. She took two three
busses and come back and cooked dinner with a coat on.
She you know, she she was the hub of the
of the family, you know. But but they argued all
the time because my father was like an emotional thirteen

(37:25):
year old. You know, he I don't know. Maybe he
was on the grid somewhere, you know, I don't I
don't know where he was at. But but I gotta
tell you my father had great qualities. The guy was
an unbelievable athlete. He could swim and we would go
to Orchard Beach. He'd swim out to an island. He'd
dive off the city island bridge, and then he would sculpt.

(37:49):
He would go in the cellar and sculpt something or
lift weight. But he didn't like to work. How many
kids in the family, Uh three? I was the oldest.
I had two two sisters. Well, use are the oldest.
All the hopes and dreams were in the oldest kid,
and the oldest kid gets pushed. Was that your experience? Well,

(38:09):
I didn't need to get pushed. I was pushing myself.
I was like, Uh, I was just on a mission.
The drive was on, and then uh was there music
in the house. My father listened to Al Jolson. He
listened to Louis Prima. I always say Louis Prima would

(38:33):
be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame if
he didn't sing Italian song. Because Sam but Tera was
one of the best sex sax players I've I've ever
heard you know that guy he was. He was just great. Okay,
I'm a little younger than you, but I certainly were.

(38:55):
And one of the big things they always said was
street corner sea What was really going on there? Were
you really seeing it on the street corners? Absolutely? Where else?
Are hallways? When we found out the hallways had a
better sound, we got into the hallways or the or
the subway stations. But but we were saying anywhere, you know,

(39:17):
on the stoops mostly you know, yeah, absolutely it was
street music. Uh you know, we weren't on stage. We
we didn't have a studio. It was like, uh, it
was street music. We we get together and make up sounds,
you know, you know, dead lead lead lead let yeah,

(39:39):
dead little lead lead let yeah. You know down dome, dome, dome,
dom dom and just jump on it with some harmony
and it it was an art form, you know. And
at what point do you say, hmm, I can make
this a career, I can earn a living at this Well,

(40:01):
I went down to a little company. Uh. There was
a black guy in my neighborhood. His name was Willie Green.
He was the Uh, the janitor of one of the
apartment buildings. I couldn't wait to get with him after
school because he played guitar and he listened to John
Lee Hook. I loved this guy man, you know, I

(40:22):
just couldn't wait to get with him. You know, it
was the real deal for me. It was it was
stuff that made me feel alive, you know. So I
uh and he you know, then I found out that
there was this company and they wanted me to audition.
There was a songwriter in the neighborhood, not a very
good one, but he knew this company and he he said,

(40:45):
you should go down here in the audition. He got
me an audition, and I was I was kind of
frightened about it. And I told Willie Willie Green, this janitor,
he said, just be yourself, he said, he said, sing
that called Perkins song sang for me. You know. So
I went down there and I did that, and I
got a record deal. And uh, I didn't know what

(41:07):
I was doing. I just you know, saying they they
signed me right away. So uh, then they wanted they
put me with this group from Oklahoma called the timber Lanes.
You know, like to tote, you know, like you know,
like uh, I said, I can't sing with these guys.
So that was how I recruited all the best uh

(41:33):
you know street doo wop singer is from the streets,
you know that used to hang out in different neighborhoods
listening to different jukeboxes. And uh, I got the best,
you know, the best of the best and put them together.
And it came out with my house one day and
we put I wonder why together, Bob, you should have

(41:56):
been there. I'm telling you, it was like a dream.
I'm true. I don't know, you know, I wasn't in
to do up that. I mean, I never sang with
three other guys in the room. I had had a
guitar and I would do Hank Williams songs or something.
But being this company wanted to, you know, put me
with this group, the Templings, and they did. I recorded

(42:19):
uh something and I just didn't like it. I said,
you know, let me try it. Being you want this,
I'll get some guys. I'll do anything, you know, because
I would do anything to make a record or you know,
being an artist or so I got these guys and
we put this song together and the first day we

(42:39):
sang that song in my parents apartment, in my bedroom.
Those three guys, it was it was like I was
on a carousel in heaven. One guy was singing then
and and that and and that and let edit and
that and done, done that. The other guys on whoo

(43:01):
and the other guy when when you know, and I'm
singing lead. We were doing four different things. It was
like dixie Land, but it was our own thing. Uh.
But it was amazing. It was like a golden It
was a golden moment, a real defining moment in my life. Okay,

(43:24):
you have success. What would you consider to be your
first big hit record? I think that I wonder why? Okay,
so if we go, wonder why you cut it in
the studio and they used to cut really fast. Did
you know it was gonna be as big as it
ended up being. No, But I knew we had something special.

(43:45):
I liked it. I thought it was I thought it
was pretty cool. It was different, you know. Uh, the
intro to it is is as distinctive as for doop
as Chuck Berry's in True and Row to Johnny be
Good on guitar. Okay, but you're a young guy, you're
living in the Bronx. Everybody's listening to the radio. What

(44:08):
to like? What your song comes over the radio? What
are the kids of the neighborhood saying? What do you think, Bob?
It was It was crazy because, uh, you know, we
didn't have air conditioners, so everybody had their there windows
open in the summer right there, just you know, in
the radios around and and they know that Dion and

(44:30):
a Bellmans. They know I'm Francis as kid patent Francis
Kin and I got a record out, so everybody's listening
to the countdown. Everybody listened to the same music. Back then,
we didn't have all these stations. Now you look, they
have like fifty genres. Know, everybody listens to the same stuff,
so I wonder why it comes on. It was. It

(44:52):
was like it was surround sound coming out of everybody's window,
so you know, and out of the convertibles in the street.
So it was amazing. We uh, we bought jackets and
we painted Dion and the Belmont's on the back. You know,
we were like we were crazy. So it was a
lot of fun, okay, but then you go on an

(45:13):
incredible run both with him without the Belmont and you're
a young guy. How do you handle that emotionally? You know,
I'm bob. I I couldn't handle my emotions for I
didn't even know what they were, where they came from. So,

(45:35):
uh yeah, I started, you know, like a lot of people,
I started with the drinking and the drugging, and uh,
I started pretty young. Actually I started before I was recording.
I started, uh fooling with with drugs when I was fourteen,
and uh, you know, so I uh, you know, I

(45:59):
wanted a umplished something with the singing and the contract
and the records, but really I my feet were firmly
planted on the in the air. You know, I had
no I had no foundation at all. So it's crazy. Uh,
and I you know, I got it, you know with

(46:23):
that stuff, it's progressive and you get hooked. And the
mid sixties were you know, I always say this, this
three stages to drug addiction or alcoholism and all that
kind of stuff. The first stage goes up, it's a
lot of fun, you think you found heaven. The second

(46:45):
stage is it flattens out. It's like fun and some problems.
And then the third stage is nothing but problems. So
that's how it went for me, uh the mid you know,
when I was at Colombia, I was it was fun
and then it got fun and some problems and uh

(47:10):
you know like that. Okay, so you go on the road,
you're a young success, do you partake of all of
the goodies on the road, not only the drugs but
the sex, etcetera. And I I I was a shy kid. Man.
I was shy, so I I wasn't uh you know,

(47:34):
it just wasn't part of my nature too. Uh just
uh yeah, I wanted to, you know, and I did,
but I wouldn't say it was like overboard. I was
like I meet somebody. You know, if it happened, it happened.
But you know, uh, I mean, yeah, you know, it's funny.

(47:55):
I go back to the St. Thome as A Quintas
that I was reading. It's funny how things are backed
you when you're older and you're and you're having problems
emotionally and you're you're taking drugs because uh uh. I
started thinking about St. Thomas Aquinas and I started thinking
about some of the things I I learned, and I

(48:18):
you know, it's Acquaintas would say, if you don't have
God in your life. You have to fill up on something,
and it's usually the four substitutes, the the typical temptations
or addictions. Its wealth, pleasure, power, and honor. And you
want you got to get the money, the pleasure, sex, drugs,

(48:42):
rock and roll, you gotta get you know. You you
could see the politicians with the power, and people got power.
That's that's a big addiction. And and honor. You gotta
be right, you gotta win, you gotta be better. You
got back all this stuff. So you try to fill
yourself up with that stuff and it doesn't really work
because it's outside yourself. You know, you're really not finding

(49:06):
uh you, It'll never satisfy that deep longing of of
the of your heart and spirit, you know. So I
started to think about these things when I started getting addicted,
you know, and I was when I was miserable, you know,
coming into nineteen. I started thinking about the Mon Senior

(49:27):
who stopped me on the street one day and he said, yo, Dion,
come over here. What makes a man happy? And I said, Mon,
seeing you, if I could get a thunderbird, if I
could get a Gibson J two hundred guitar, I could
get a hit record, I'm talking about when I was
fifteen years old. I said, if I could get a
date with that girl, Susan who moved down from Ver month,

(49:47):
I'd be a happy guy. He said, no, Dion, the
virtuous man is a happy man. I said, what the
hell is virtue? I had no idea what it was
because I was up to no good. And he said,
it's a habitual and firm disposition to do the good.
I mean, I remembered it because we sat there for
twenty minutes and he drilled it into my head and

(50:09):
I was up to no good. So but later on,
when I'm hooked and baffled and wondering about he started
thinking about these things. Gee. Maybe what he said was
I wonder how you get there? You know? And then
I met a guy I was like, I was, you know,

(50:30):
I had twelve gold records on the wall, and I
had a you know, I I had success run around
Sue and the Wanderer and route. I had some big
records with teenager in love as a kid. And then
it rolls around nineteen six and February of nineteen sixty eight,

(50:55):
Frankie Lyman dies of an overdose and I used to
I ran the streets with Frankie Lyman. We used to
we used to like take drugs together and stuff, and
it just scared me. I thought, you know this is
this is not gonna end up well. So I got
on my knees one night and like that's why I said.

(51:16):
It was like December fourteenth, there was I got on
my knees and I asked God for help. I said, God,
I don't know if you're real, I don't know what's
going but you I need help. I'm telling you I
haven't had a drug or a drink in fifty two years.
So that was my Then I meet this guy and
I'm having coffee with him. I don't know if you

(51:38):
want to hear this, but keep going, keep going. But
this is crazy, you know, because I'm from the streets, man,
I'm from Crotona Avenue in the Bronx. We don't talk
about this stuff. Nobody says, are you serene? Or how
do you find peace of mind? You know who the
hell cares? You know, nobody's thinking like that. But this

(52:00):
guy says to me, do you know where feelings come from?
I said no. He said, they come from your thinking.
Your thought, you will feel what you're thinking, now, who
the hell of a knew that? I didn't know that.
So now if if you know, if I get off
someday like a little which I don't, you know, I'm

(52:22):
I'm a funny guy. Because if you would open up
my brain, if you would open up saw my head
in half and look inside my brain, you'd see a
very peaceful, orderly place. So and that's because of this
guy who told me that. Because so you know, he
was like into pursuing wisdom, you know, cultivating the life

(52:45):
of the mind. He used to say, this is where
you live in your mind. You live here. You know,
it's got you gotta be right because I was a mess.
I was a mess, bob, you know. But thank god,
I I think from that point on, well, I've always
had this. I've always had this. I gotta say, I've
always had this wonderful gift to surround myself with great

(53:10):
people that knew more than I did, much more than
I did. I don't know what that and and I'm
not saying all the time I was around, you know,
there were people coming out of my life that weren't
like that. But the people that I really appreciated, I
I I had this ability to notice that I wanted

(53:32):
to be this guy's friend. You know, he he could
take me to higher ground. Okay, man, let's say look,
let's say hypothetically tomorrow you went to the doctor and
he said you have a year to live tragically, but
it doesn't not really happening. Would you partake of drugs
and alcohol or would you stay off? Oh? Absolutely not,

(53:54):
absolutely stay clean. Now I'm I'm high. I'm like, Uh,
I'm a very grateful guy. I wouldn't want to be
any other place than in the presence of beauty and
ore and wonder and life and I and my friends. No, okay,
you become sober and sixty eight, that's very early, you know.

(54:18):
So being sober today is a big thing. But certainly
it's something like me who gave up alcohol in for years.
People are cajoling me, have a drink, have a drink.
Did you experience that? Yeah, But it's not something I
got rid of or something. It's it's just something that uh,

(54:39):
I don't I don't want and I don't need to
go there, and I don't need to feel better than
I feel. I really I like to feel what I'm feeling. Um,
I like to experience life in a very real way,
on a higher reality. Um, it's just uh to me,

(55:02):
it's the real deal. It's something uh and and drugs
are alcohol. They they I want to be fully alive,
and that's not the way to go if you want
to I'm totally with you. There's no drug I've ever
taken that's as good as a natural Hye me sound
like a cliche, but I firmly believe that. No, I

(55:23):
uh And, Look, it's been fifty two years. I have
three daughters that loved me dearly. They walk in the house,
they want to lean on my shoulder and hug me,
and they don't feel judged. I don't judge them. I
enjoy them. I have. I have a wife, that girl Susan.
I told you I met her when I was fourteen.

(55:44):
Still my wife been married fifty seven years. I'm like,
if I had one year to live, I'd probably get
closer to my friends and uh and and closer to
the people I love. But I wouldn't. You know, rugs
and alcohol would take you further away from that, So
I wouldn't. I wouldn't even think of that. Okay, So

(56:11):
when you started out the package tour was the big thing.
What were those days? Like? Wow, I'll tell you something,
I learned a lot because you know, back in those days,
well even today, the music brought the races together, brought

(56:32):
different cultures together. You know. I traveled with Bobby Blue Bland,
I traveled with Sam Cook. I'll tell you a story
I put in. Uh. There's a song actually Songwriters of
America UH picked it as the best song of Uh.
It's called song for Sam Cook here in America. And

(56:53):
what the song comes out of is um uh and
and and Paul Simon helped uh is on it. He
uh he sang some harmony with me, who made it
just really something special. But when I met Sam Cook,
I traveled with Sam Cook um for about form for

(57:17):
for a month on a big show called show of
Shows show. Uh, I forget something like that. I forget
the name of the tour. But we we traveled all
over the country and then we went on another tour
and uh we were down in uh Memphis, and he

(57:38):
was a very refined guy, Sam Cook, very intelligent. Uh.
You know, I was rough, I was rough around the edges.
I was kid from the Bronx. You know. He was
a preacher's kid. And uh, I saw him in a
lot of different situations in Memphis and people were you know,
there was racism in New York, but it wasn't the

(58:02):
same because I was, like I told you, I was
at Columbia Records with all the Apollo guys that you know,
and I was friends. I I became friends with Buddy
Lucas for all his life, you know. And Sam Uh.
You know, they had the Jim Crow laws down here.

(58:22):
I who knew anything about that? You know, that was
a whole different thing from me. So when when I
saw people treating him the way they treated him, he
was a very beautiful guy Statue West. He was tall,
he was stood straight, he was bright. He he wanted
to be around them because you know, like I said,
you could learn from guys like this, so I would,

(58:47):
you know, he he taught me basically that racism was,
you know, a peculiar way to become a man. And uh,
and if race matted to you, basically I learned it
from him. If if race matters to you, if it's
significant to you, you're a racist. It didn't matter to us.

(59:07):
It doesn't matter to you and me. It's like I
color a shoe color, you know. So I would watch
this guy and I'd say, Sam, an youa punch that
guy in his face, you know, And he'd say, Dan,
you know, why what? Why should I get down on
that level? You know? You know. So I got to

(59:28):
observe him in a lot of different situations and the
way he responded, and I never seen him get ruffled.
I've never seen him get angry. I've seen him say
things that were like incredible to just just deflective stuff
that would like putting somebody's face, like put up a

(59:48):
mirror in somebody's face to show them where they were
really at. And I would think, what the hell that,
you know, And then it dawned on me after about
three weeks that he was the smartest guy in the room.
But he never lets you know it. He just he
was that smart. He didn't even have to go there.
These people were idiots, you know. So he wanted to

(01:00:11):
and he would talk about God and he would talk
about brotherhood and friendship and understanding. He was he was
like living out the Gospel. He would understand me. He
he stood up for me. He he Sam Cook took
me to a club in Memphis to to to see
James Brown and the Flames, and people were getting on
my case and he sayd hey, he's the kids with me.

(01:00:33):
That's Dion, you know, we're doing shows things. But he
was He was a good guy. So I wrote this
song years ago and I never recorded it. It's called
song for Sam Cook. And uh, last year when I
when I saw a Green Book, I said to my wife, Wow,
they wrote a song. They wrote they put a movie together.
Reminds me of my song. You know, it's it's like backwards,

(01:00:56):
but it it reminds me of my song. So I
took the song out and it ended up on Blues
with Friends. And when I get when I played it
for Paul Simon, you know, he mentioned racism. He said
a song and I said, it's not really. I said, yes,
there's a racism component to it, but it's really about it.

(01:01:17):
It's really a song about brotherly love and friendship and understanding.
And uh he said, yeah, I get it. I get it.
So we did it together. Okay, who turned you onto heroin?
What were the circumstances there? Ah, one day, you know,
the the idea of that. I was young and my

(01:01:41):
parents were always arguing, always, man just twenty four seven.
My father never had a job, and they would, you know,
just be at it all the time. So the first
time I snorted some of this stuff, I was like, whoa.
I was on the street the next day looking for it.

(01:02:02):
I want more of that. It made me feel good, period,
and uh that's what happens, you know. Uh, I just
felt good. Okay, So tell us your version of splitting
up with the Belmont. My version is is the real reason.

(01:02:27):
You know, we did the first album and I had
this love for Hank Williams and Jimmy Reid and these
three guys that I put together started wanting to do
they I don't know what they want, you know, because

(01:02:48):
people back then talked about legitimate music like I wonder
why wasn't legitimate? And they wanted to do stuff like
for four times ups I don't know, like the like
the uh the let him I forget. You know. It
was like these these groups that sang smooth harmonies. Uh,

(01:03:12):
and and we did a whole album of the this
these songs that I guess from the Great American Songbook,
you know, the Swinging on a Star and you know,
in the Still of the Night, not the not the
five sentence in the still of the night. But you
know some of the like where when we had to

(01:03:32):
hit record called where When because it was I did
it because of it was the record company president's favorite song.
So I put a version of that together. Then they
wanted to sing everything like that. I said, I can't
do that. I just can't do that. I'll blow my

(01:03:52):
brains out. So we just split. And that's how I
got to make runaround Sue and the wander and everything.
You know, because if I would have stayed with them,
I would have been if I would have stayed with that,
not not basically with them. I love the guys I
was there were great talents, and the guys in the
Belmonts they were great, great singers. I loved them, you know,

(01:04:17):
and it was humble to sing with them. But but
the music I wanted to do what I wanted to do.
It was like, you know, it was driving me. Uh
I had no choice. I really didn't have a choice.
Uh So, and I'm still doing it and I still

(01:04:38):
don't have a choice. And I, um, what was the
difference between being on LORI Records and an independent being
on Columbia? Uh? I gotta say there wasn't too much difference.
They both were I tell you the way it was
back then. They both were with me, Okay, you want

(01:05:02):
to do that song, ruby baby, do this song. We'll
make you you do one song that you want to do.
Do one song that we want you to do. So
it was like one for you, one for me. Same
with Glory Records. That was it. So, you know, I
didn't know any better, you know. But when I got

(01:05:23):
a little older, when I got when I started getting
like I was about twenty three, I just I left
Columbia and I left a lot of money on the table.
I came home and I told my wife Susan, I said,
I I left. I can't they they're not going to
release the Kicking Child album. They don't like and it's
a great album. They just released it recently and it's

(01:05:44):
a it was a great album. Did it all live
with with uh? I don't know, just life right in
the studio four guys with Al Cooper on the on
the keep warts and Tom Wilson produced it. But I
told Susan, I left Columbia. I left the money there,

(01:06:06):
you know, And I had a I had a contract
and I had I had I was making a hundred
thousand dollars a year for five years. That was the contract,
I said, And I left within two years. I left
three hundred thousand dollars on the table. I said, keep it.
That's how much the music meant to me. That's how much. Uh.

(01:06:26):
I just couldn't do it. It was the only thing
I had in my that that that was my salvation.
Was this this gift you know, that was in me.
So I just I never lost my artistic curiosity. And
I feel like the same as when I was a kid,
you know. I like coming out on the stage with

(01:06:46):
a guitar and just rocking, you know, and just doing
a great song and taking and taking people on a trip.
But it's gotta be. It's gotta be from the inside
of you. How are you gonna do it with somebody
else telling you that it just doesn't work? You know?
Do it with this song? Nah? I don't think so. Okay,

(01:07:07):
What was your perspective when the Beatles arrived in the
whole British invasion? What do you think of that? Well?
I didn't, to be honest with you, The Beatles didn't
affect me one bit. I didn't even to me, I
don't even call it the British invasion. I call it
the uh, the British infusion, because I got into the

(01:07:32):
Stones and you know, and some of the stuff they
were doing, like the animals, uh, you know with the
House of the Rising Sun. The Beatles were like too cute,
I love you, Yeah, yeah, who who you know? I
was like nah later for that stuff. I it was
too many chords, too cute for me. I I didn't.

(01:07:52):
I didn't get into it, but you know I got
I came to appreciate them when they did rub a soul.
They were were they were writing some great songs, you know,
and then revolution you know. Uh. But it wasn't like
anything that threatened me. I wasn't even it didn't you
know why it didn't bother me because I mean it
didn't affect me because I was in my room when

(01:08:17):
I after I heard Jon Hammond, after he gave me
U an arm full of albums of Furry Lewis and uh,
Fred McDowell and Lightning Hopkins and and and and Robert Johnson,
I was in my room. I love Bob Dylan. Bob
Dylan came to Columbia. I was at a lot of

(01:08:38):
the early sessions, just sitting there with John Hammond. But
I tell you I loved him. That was incredible. But
that's what I was into. I was into the blues,
love Dylan. Um. You know, I got into a lot
of the people in the village that was that was
down are, like Tim Harden. Uh. I was watching the

(01:08:58):
Loving Spoonful Creation, you know, Um, Richie Havens, John Hammond Jr.
Playing at the gas light, hanging out there, Paul Butterfield. Yeah.
So so the Beatles and not to make it sound

(01:09:19):
try to like, you know, like I'm putting them, but
it wasn't for me. I was more. I was more
in the blues and the folk thing, you know, the okay,
tell us tell us the story of Abraham Martin and John.
You know. I was living in Miami. I had moved

(01:09:42):
there a geographical cure because I had been drinking and drugging.
And I was, like I said, I ended up there.
Frankie Lyman died. I was in Uh. I was in Miami,
and I I met a guy and UH introduced me

(01:10:05):
to a spiritual twelfth Step program and I got into
that and I man, I never looked back. I got
on my knees one night. I've never been the same.
I just I took to it like a I don't know,
a duck to water, you know. I So I was,

(01:10:27):
I was working on myself and uh, working on my
you know, putting things back together mentally for myself, because
I had taken drugs and was drinking for quite a while.
That uh, this song, Uh it comes to me Abraham

(01:10:49):
Martin and John Uh three months after I cleaned up,
you know, after I stopped drinking and drugging, and uh,
Dick Holla walks in into my house, as you know,
uh uh he wrote it. He wrote it kind of
like cutesy dude. You know. I remember, you know, as

(01:11:10):
I picked up my guitar, I had a gut string guitar,
and I kind of arranged it, you know. I put
it together in a way that uh I thought it
would be interesting because I was listening to Tim Harden
back then Kenny Rankin, you know. Uh so I don't know,
I thought, let me try it like this. I put
the song together and I recorded it for Lorie Records.

(01:11:34):
What when I started playing it, my wife said, Wow,
that that's the gospel. She said that that sounds like
you could kill the dream of but you cannot kill
the dream. You know. It's people like us, we pick
up on it and carry it further. She said, So
I'll keep you in my prayers. Do a good job
with it. I went up to New York, got in
the studio with the studio was loaded with musicians like

(01:11:57):
uh and uh of the song with my gut string
guitar and who knew because that was you know, in
that era, that was Jimmy Hendricks, Cream, Eric Clapton, you know,
stuff like that. I would never think it would even
you know, I just I just recorded it because it

(01:12:19):
was interesting. But I who would think it would become
like an anthem or you know, a song that would
you know, go to number one? Okay, you were one
of the first, if not the first mamestream rocker to
make Christian music. So he can he tell me about
that process and how you flipped back and forth from

(01:12:40):
Christian to secondary music thereafter. Well, to me, you know,
it's like to me that uh, I don't even know
if it makes sense, but uh, you know, if you
go in a record store, they'll have these different bens
Christian music, folk music, blues, rock and roll, to me

(01:13:03):
when I pick up a guitar, it's Dion music. So
you know, I wanted to sing a gospel too, umm
it I you know, I got into gospel music. Uh.
I was listening to some of the groups and Mighty
Clouds of Joy, and I heard something. I thought, this

(01:13:25):
is great and you know, and I thought, hey, I
don't mind being identified with Jesus because you know, here's
a man, god man who cared about the sick, the lonely,
the broken, the disabled, you know, the poor. I said,
I don't mind being identified with him. So you know,

(01:13:47):
it never bought you know, I I thought that's an
uplifting thing for me and a good way to go.
So I wrote a lot of gospel songs, a lot.
I think I made five albums. It was to me,
it was very lifting. It was like, uh, you know,
it just was. It had a lot to do with

(01:14:09):
just what was happening inside of me at the time. Okay, Now,
when you started in the record business, royalties were low,
they tended not to be paid, and a lot of
these hit records you didn't write. So how is the
money worked out over all these decades with me? Yeah?

(01:14:33):
You know, I'm blessed. Man, I'm blessed. I I tell
you a lot of guys don't end up in in
good shape. But uh, I don't know. I for me,
uh I reeled in all the publishing that I wrote

(01:14:55):
about four hundred songs. So man, mailbox money is good
for me. I mean it keeps me buoyant, you know it.
Uh I have no complaints. I uh i, I've never
been uh I never have to claim bankruptcy or you know,

(01:15:16):
I don't know. I was always I don't know, I'm
a generous guy. But I always like I didn't need
to be fancy. I didn't need to have a car
every year or to live. I never had to show
anybody anything, you know. I never had to be extravagant.
Like I just wasn't that guy. So I just I

(01:15:37):
ate well. I lived well. I I don't feel like
I'm lacking anything. You know. My wife and I uh
uh I could help my kids, I could, I could
do a lot, you know. But I ended up in
a good place because of a great manager. Dick Fox
is man. He is a blessing. He was like mother

(01:16:03):
Teresa to me. You know. He came into my life
and I had a good guy by my side and
who didn't rip me off for you know, because I
come from the era that you know, clever accounting, you're
always in the red. I never made any money on albums, never,

(01:16:25):
I never. But you still don't get any record royalties.
But yes, through Sound Exchange, through ASCAP thank god that
uh uh publishing. You know. I talked to Lou Reed
long time ago. He said, publishing, that's your retirement plan there.
So I my wife ran the publishing company for about

(01:16:47):
twenty five years. So, uh, to be honest with you,
I did well, I can do. What was it if you?
Have you ever gotten a royalty on a record from
the label? Yeah, that's and that's that's another situation, you know.

(01:17:08):
But I'll tell you what you get ripped off. You
get ripped off, absolutely ripped off. Okay, but I'll tell
you something, especially from you know, from that decade. You know.
Now it's a different story. I'm I'm like with much honest,
more honest than up from people that show you everything.

(01:17:29):
But uh, back in in that day, everybody got ripped off.
I mean, Chuck, Barry bo you talked to all these guys.
Everybody got you know, I didn't get paid. But somewhere
along the line, the idea comes to you, let me
pull back from this. Like if I'm say, take Muddy

(01:17:50):
Waters comes out of the fields, he's picking cotton, gets
his guitar, walks into his studio, you know, Chess records
and and say it doesn't get paid. Okay. If you
approach the guy like that and say, hey, listen, money,

(01:18:11):
we are going to record you and we're gonna give
you an international career, the world is gonna know you,
and you know you're gonna make money because you're gonna
be the man. You know. Uh, we're gonna give you
a career. We're gonna give you a sixty year career.

(01:18:34):
What do you think of that? Who would who wouldn't,
who wouldn't sign on? I'd say yeah. So somewhere along
the line you're pulled back and you look at this
and you go, well, yeah, I didn't get paid correctly
in it, But look at they took a shot with me.
They gave me this and they were like that, and
you just I mean nothing. It's right, But you walk

(01:18:55):
away without a resentment and you don't have to ruin
your life thinking about people beating you and all that
stuff and blaming people. You know, you're just so you
know what I'm saying, You gotta pull back and look
at the whole picture. Okay. And how did you meet
hook up with Dick Fox? He was a fan as
a kid, and when I was in uh he showed

(01:19:17):
up when I was going through uh a difficult time,
uh and he said, I'd I'd love to to manage you.
This was like in the early nineties and I've been
with him ever since. He's made my life a living dream.
Thank you, Dick Fox. Thank you God. I mean, you know,

(01:19:38):
when you got a guy like that by your side,
what it's just, it makes life. It just makes life wonderful. Okay. Now,
you moved to Miami in sixty ye eight. What do
we know about Miami? Snowbirds went there, Jackie Gleason moved there,
but maybe with criteria study. It was in the seventies

(01:20:01):
Miami became hot, nothing like it is today. Were you
out of the loop? It was good for you for
drugs and alcohol? Was it good for you musically? Well?
I really was still connected to New York. Uh Uh.
I moved down just to get away from drugs and alcohol.

(01:20:25):
And I found that that I took myself with me.
But as you'd have it. You know, I met a
guy and I got cleaning soba and cleaning soba ever
since April of nineteen, and uh, that's a big thing.
It kept me healthy and vital and and uh significant,

(01:20:46):
you know, like I like I made this latest album,
Blues with Friends. Do you think I'd go in and
make an album if I didn't feel uh, you know, significant,
or I had something to say? What what would be
the reason to do it? I don't have a reason,
you know. So I feel very uh alive and well
and like, uh, actually I have more to say now

(01:21:09):
than I did when I was nineteen. I made some
great records then. But I just you should hear the
new thing I'm doing. I'm doing. I just went in
and cutting. I'm cutting a new album. I must be
under the spout where the glory comes out, because man,
these songs have been getting downloaded in my head. So

(01:21:30):
I'm excited about this new thing I'm doing. You know,
it's just fun. I love, you know, Bob, I've always
loved creating something like it wasn't there and all of
a sudden it's there. The sound these songs they take
people on a trip. I've always loved that more than
going on the road and singing and you know, and

(01:21:51):
doing that deal. I love. I love singing the people.
It's just wonderful see the faces. And like I said,
I've never changed. I love taking people on a trip.
But let me tell you, man, I love creating. I
love the idea of creating more than anything. It's just
that turns me on, that that that floats my boat.

(01:22:13):
That's why I'm still passionate. Okay, Uh, You've had ups
and downs. You talk about alcohol, moving to Miami. Do
you ever contemplate giving up, giving up, retiring and doing
something else? Uh? Hey, I don't know. You know, I'll

(01:22:38):
be honest with you. I love talking to men about recovery.
I mean, that'll always be a part of my life
because someone was there for me and uh showed me
where the key was to open up the cell that
I was in of of self bondage, you know. And

(01:22:59):
so I just love talking to men because when I
see the lights come on, they come alive and they
get free, a freedom of excellence, a genuine freedom, not
not false. I and their families come together and their
kids and that turns me on. So I so I

(01:23:21):
would never retire from that, and I would never retire.
I don't think I could ever retire from making music
some some way, you know. And uh so those two things. Uh,
Like you know, Bob, I found out a long time ago,
there's a big difference between success and fulfillment. And uh,

(01:23:45):
you know, they're not the same. They're they're different. And
you know, and you know, you could just read the headline,
you could just read the tabloids and see people that
are successful, a lot of them are not very happy.
So uh but I'm a grateful guy because I you know,
I found peace and and brotherhood with a lot of

(01:24:09):
friends and community and love around me. So I'm I'm
good to go. Okay, But before you go on every level.
Your mother lived a hundred and four, let's just say
you have twenty years left. Anything specific you want to accomplish,
uh or do with that time? Well, you know, I'll

(01:24:35):
tell you something that's crazy. It's crazy because I'm from
New York, right. But John Coltrane is a quote that
really hit me. He said, the only real regret in
life is not to become a saint. Now, you know,

(01:25:01):
you would think well, what do I want to accomplish?
What do I want to do? Well, that's not a
bad mission statement to try and let go of all
the things that get in the way of of a
terrible life, you know, all the addictions and uh you know,
uh kind of missing the mark and trying to uh

(01:25:26):
get older, you know, be being self centered and all that.
You know, to try and shoot for something like that,
that would be my mission statement to try. You know, listen,
I got friends that are looking at me and go
ain't gonna happen, you know, listen, Uh, you know I'll
never be you know, none of us are going to

(01:25:46):
be perfect, none of us. But it's not a bad
thing to to shoot for like perfection and and to
be a good person. I always say I got I'm
a thinker, you know, I like to think. So I
always say God without goodness is fanaticism. And goodness without

(01:26:06):
God doesn't endure it for very long. It has no legs.
So I have all these kind of things. I got
my head, you know that, I that that keeps me
on track. You know, I got good people around me.
You know, do you do you play music in the
house on a regular basis, Either records or playing yourself. Yeah,

(01:26:29):
I well, I don't. There's no music blasting in my
house all the time. But you know, I have your phones.
I got in the truck and I like to play
what I like in the truck, and I bought it,
you know. But but I write in the house, I'm
always I'm always a you know, in a room with

(01:26:49):
my guitar and uh, because I tell you, it's just
I have no choice. These songs get dropped in your head. Bob.
You know, it's just it's just something. It's a gift, right,
It's a gift because it comes out of the wellspring
of creativity. And I'm under it. I just stand and

(01:27:10):
now we are all under it. You're a fountain of
wisdom and insight, and you have survived unlike Frankie Lyman.
Thanks so much for taking the time, Dione. Hey, Bob,
thank you. We gotta work together. You stay well, stay safe,
stay strong. Thanks for the positive words, because I we've
both been through it, but I certainly been through it.

(01:27:30):
Until next time. This is Bob left text