Don Passman

Attorney Don Passman literally wrote the book on the music business: "All You Need to Know About the Music Business." Here we delve deeply into today's deal landscape, as well as Don's story, how he got to be one of the foremost lawyers in the music business. If you want to know about record deals, and publishing deals, and 360 deals and touring deals...this is the place!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left That's Podcast.
My guest today is attorney done Passman, who literally wrote
the book on the music business. Don hey, Pop, thanks
for having me. Okay, now I can see you're in
your home, although it looks like you're in the oval
office here on the zoom screen. Uh, how has your

(00:30):
practice changed since you've been at home. Well, interestingly, I
can do what I do pretty seamlessly at home. Um,
we're set up with computers, I'm set up as zoom.
I'm set up with uh, you know, phones and so
forth and emails, and I can get an awful lot done.
I can access the files in the office. I can
I can take care of whatever it needs to be done.

(00:53):
It's changed in the sense that obviously there's no touring
because everything is shut down. It's changed what the artists
are doing in terms of what you just physically can
do in this environment. Um, things that I at least
wouldn't have intuitively thought about, Like, for example, you can't
make videos in this environment, so you can't do the
same kind of marketing. You can't do personal appearances, you

(01:14):
can't do a lot of things that you would normally
do to market and promote product. But other than that,
people can still record, albeit remotely, and people can still
make music, still write music, and uh, there's a lot
of deals going on. Okay, since so much of the
business is closed down, your particular business in work, is
it any slower or as busy as ever? No, it's

(01:36):
busy as ever. I was actually surprised by that and
maybe even a little disappointed. Maybe there'll be a slowdown,
but it's it's been extremely busy, and truthfully I like
that better. It makes the days go by. Okay, So
you said there are a bunch of deals in the offing.
What kind of deals? Um, you know, buying and selling
of catalogs for example, executive deals people are making, publishing

(01:59):
songwright deals. People are still making record deals, management deals,
you know, the sponsorship less so now perhaps, but still active. So.
And then there's of course the whole situation with people
who made deals during COVID that now aren't working that
we have to sort out. Okay, can you address that
about the deals that aren't working and whether insurance comes

(02:22):
in and how amenable people are two changes and adjusting. Well,
people are pretty amenable. I mean everybody recognizes this is
something nobody could have contemplated. Um, everybody's businesses is challenged
seriously and fundamentally, and I think for the most part,
everybody has a long term view, which is that you know,

(02:42):
we can't, we can't. I mean, just to pick an
example of tours, because it's the most obvious if everyone
got together and if they had the contractual right, which
not everyone does to get paid during COVID, but they
crushed the promoters for the you know, out of business
when they have no income coming. Nobody thinks that's the
right thing to do or the long term thing to do.

(03:04):
So things are getting rescheduled, people are working together, people
are taking discounts, people are deferring payments to the extent
they can, and and for the most part it's it's
worked out pretty amicably. Okay, Uh, Since you're doing these deals,
when are your promoters wanting to start again, whether that
happens or not. When are they trying to book for

(03:27):
you know, I'm not on the front line of that
because the agents are. But from the intel that I've gotten,
nobody thinks anything is going to happen before summer of uh.
And honestly, I think it could be more like the
fall or even in it will directly depend on how
quickly we have a medical breakthrough. Okay. The other thing is,

(03:48):
have you uh been involved any issues of insurance people
trying to claim whether companies are paying off whether you
can get this insurance at this time? I have not
recently been involved in that because nobody's putting up tours,
so we're not dealing with the insurance issues. There are
issues around whether insurance will cover it. It's very policy dependent. Okay,

(04:12):
let's you know, let's break down some of the things
you brought up. You said you're doing a lot of
publishing deals. Everyone knows on the inside hypnosis is raising
the value of catalogs. Uh. Do you think this is
causing the action in the buying and selling of publishing catalogs.
I think that's part of it. I think the other

(04:32):
part of it is that we're seeing a lot of
Wall Street money looking at publishing as a steady source
of income with potential upside and uh and Wall Street
like steady sources of income as an investment. So we're
seeing all kinds of new players come into the marketplace
that want to do this, and so there's not a
lot of inventory and a lot of hound snapping at

(04:55):
the door, and I think that's the reason we're seeing
such a surge in that. What kind of Wall Street
movement have you seen? Um? Well, I don't want to
get specific, but a number of investment firms or people
backed by investment type firms that are funds you know
that are that are you know venture capital type funds. Okay,

(05:17):
let's talk specifically about Hypnosis Merk's company. He wants to
own the publishing entirely, and he's paying a huge multiple. Obviously,
as an attorney, you listen to what your client wants.
But assuming the client didn't have opinion and opinion, what
would you say about selling all the rights? I generally

(05:39):
advise against it. Historically, everybody who has sold their song
has regretted it. If you look back through history to
pick an example, Uh, you know, led Zeppelin sold all
the royalties on their catalog for what was a good
deal amount of money at the time, but over history
proved to be not such a great deal. Same thing

(05:59):
with Elvis Preshley. The people that have sold off have
generally regretted it. People that sold songs, people that sold
publishing companies. You know have seen them go for bigger
multiples further down the road. UM. So my general bent
is there is a saying in the publishing business never
sell a song, and my general bent is against that.

(06:20):
On the other hand, there are a few specific circumstances
where it can make sense. There's some tax advantages to selling.
You can get capital gains rather than ordinary income for
the money that you get. If your need of money, uh,
you can sell it in that. But if you're if
you're able to hang onto it for one thing, tax wise,
once you die, you get what's called a stepped up basis,

(06:43):
which means that your errors will be able to sell
the catalog for the value at the time of death
and not pay any tax on the sale. Of course,
you're gonna pay a state tax on it if your
state's large enough. Um, but you wouldn't pay any income
tax on the sale at that point. And really I
like to u to keep it through the airs. Now,

(07:03):
having said that, in a situation where someone passed away
and the airs are squabbling with each other or they
can't it's too cumbersome to get everybody to agree to
license a song or someone. You know, different situations, it
does make sense to sell. And by the way, someone
who is sophisticated and not going to just squander the money,

(07:25):
who wants to sell it and thinks they can make
a better return than they're publishing is giving them by
putting it into different kinds of investments, that can make
sense too. But that's rare, and my general band is
don't do it. But obviously I have people who want
to do it, and and we we've certainly done a
lot of it. Okay, what about some of your clients
or people you might be aware of who are cash

(07:47):
poor and make most of their money for touring. Uh,
if we're down for another up to eighteen months, what
options do these people have for income? Yeah, that's that's
a good question. I mean it depends, of course on
who they are. If they have good songwriting or record income,
that's where it's going to come from. Possibly there's an endorsement. Uh,

(08:09):
you know some of them have. There's been this situation
which I haven't had highans involved in, but I've I've
heard about tangentially where people are you know, getting tips
or trying to you know, some pay per view, although
a lot of that's for charity. That generates some amount
of money, but nothing like touring would. But generally it's tough.
I mean, if you don't have income from other sources,

(08:31):
it's going to be a rough period of time. Okay,
talking about income in the future. There are cases where
people have an interest in a record. A well known
cases Todd Rundgren produced Bad Out of Hell of the
meat Loaf record. Now, in his particular case, he sold
all the royalties. I could go down that path. I
know more about it. But there are people who sold

(08:53):
royalties in records because they say it's very difficult to collect.
Is the years go by and never never mind collect
a hundred cents on the dollar. What do you think
about that whole situation. I'm not clear why they think
it would be difficult to collect. I know a number
of cases where the new regimes come in, Uh they

(09:16):
people work gets screwed up. The new people say they're
not owed the money, and especially someone who needs the
money has a very hard time going through the process
and then ultimately even lawsuits in order to collect what
they deserve. As I say, if you haven't experience that,
I've not experienced it, but I don't doubt it happens.

(09:36):
Uh you know, and if it's not for a lot
of money, it's not going to be worthwhile to file
the litigation. As I say, there may be situations where
selling makes sense. You don't get capital gains on an
income stream. By the way, if you're a producer getting royalties,
you can't sell it for capital gains. You can only
sell capital gains for an asset, which would be a copyright.
In fact, if you don't own the copyright and you're

(09:58):
only selling your stream as a writer, you don't get
capital games for that either. So there's no particular tax
advantage to that. It's just a question of uh. And
if you want to do a cold financial analysis, how
much money will they give me? Now? What can I
earn on that money? Uh? Am? I better off doing
that than keeping it and getting the income as it

(10:18):
comes in. You're certainly hedging against it going down over time,
but you're also losing the benefit if it goes up
over time. So these are very fact specific situations and
you have to analyze it based on who they are
and what their needs are. Generally speaking, the people who
make all this money, who are performers, are not that

(10:39):
good at business. So to what degree if someone does
get a lump sum, do you advise them what to
do with the money? Well, I don't advise on financial matters.
It's not my expertise, and I try to stay in
the lane that I know best and not not get
out of it. Uh, the financial it depends. I mean,

(11:01):
some artists don't know much about business, but they have
smart people around them and they listen to them. And
if those people know what they're doing and think it
makes sense on a financial basis, and you're not going
to run out and you know by jets and yachts
with the proceeds um, then it might make some sense
to do it. But it's very very fact dependent. Okay,

(11:22):
let's go back to the royalty situation. You make a deal,
and let's just assume for the sake of discussion, the
act actually goes into profits into royalties. What has been
your experience with those acts getting paid and getting what
they deserve? Giving the example of UH high price, attorneys
like yourself negotiate the deals, but frequently the people who

(11:44):
are doing the splits or someone uneducated in the back room.
So to what degree if you experienced a problem here
and if you could address that. Sure. Uh, it's gotten
much better over the time I've been practicing law. It
used to be that things were very a sloppy and
very difficult. And that was also in the days when
royalties were computed with this incredibly complex formula which basically

(12:08):
was the answer to how can I give the artist
a high royalty rate and pay them as little as possible?
And they go through all these complicated matching nations, and
you know, starting maybe eight or ten years ago, they
simplified it down to you get a percentage of what
we get. So and the major labels I find are
pretty straightforward, and the major publishers pretty straightforward because we

(12:30):
audit them regularly to check and you know, we find
something or sometimes there's a contractual dispute. Sometimes they're honest mistakes.
But for the most part, they're pretty straightforward. And the
size of the audits compared to the old days when
the companies played games are I find, are much smaller.
There's still significant money and there's still things to argue about, um,

(12:51):
but but for the most part, I think they try
pretty well. When you get an independent labels, it can
be a different story. It just depends on how sophisticicated
their back room is, or whether they've got somebody doing it. Um.
You know, I don't find as many people intentionally playing
games as we used to, but I do find honest mistakes.

(13:12):
And you know, some of the smaller labels can just
be sloppy or maybe have cash flow issues going back
to the majors. So forget forgetting someone who's an Internet
phenomenon like Little Nasax. If you're an act and the
label wants you and there's no bidding war, all you're

(13:33):
saying almost all of the deals or a percentage of net, Well,
they're not a percentage of net directly, they're a percentage
of the labels receipts. They're closer to a percentage of gross,
although there's issues around what gross means, particularly when you
come to foreign territories. But it's a percentage of what
the label receives. Correct. Okay, so let's just talk about

(13:54):
domestic money. We sign with one of the three major labels.
What would be the rain of percentage that you would
make a deal for both an established act and a
developing act. Yeah, developing act would probably be in the
fifteen to eighteen to twenty percent range, depending on bargaining
power UH an established act, and sometimes you can get

(14:17):
a little bit more on streaming. UH. An established act
could be in the twenties, and again with a bit
more on streaming. When you're getting into really superstar ranges,
you can get into all kinds of different things like
shares of profits. And indeed, some of the new artists
that are hot with bidding wars can get you a
share of profits and distribution type deal where they own

(14:39):
the masters and they just allow the company to distribute
it for a period of time. Uh. And you know
all kinds of things in between. So let's just assume
I have for the second numbers, I have deal. What
would be taken out of the gross Traditionally, well, under
today's formula nothing. Uh, it would just be of the
company's gross. And in the United States, that's pretty straightforward.

(15:02):
I mean, it's what they would uh. It's what they
would get for a c D, what they would get
for a download, what they would get for a stream. UH.
Synchronization licenses or generally meaning the right to use this
song and a film, or the right to use a
song and a commercial. UH. That's that's a different split.
When you get the foreign percentages. Uh, you know that

(15:23):
that's when it's a bit more in the the gamesmanship
on the on downloads and cd s, it's pretty straightforward
about what the their affiliates going to get. But when
you get the streaming, sometimes the companies will take a
percentage in France, for example, before they send the money
back to the US, and then you only get the
percentage of the US. So one of the things we

(15:44):
asked for in streaming deals now is that they have
to be at source, and the words at source mean
that that's where the money is generated. So if it's
French money, it's it's in France. If it's German money,
it's in Germany without any deductions before it gets back
to the US and the company pays it to the artists. Now,
in this particular case, unlike in decades past or certainly

(16:05):
prior to nineteen seventy, where these companies own their worldwide outlets,
they're not licensing to a third party. Is the reduction
for foreign moneys just a negotiating ploy or do they
give some kind of rationalization or they give a rationalization
that the local company has marketing expenses and that they're

(16:25):
putting actually effort and money into it and so forth.
But the reality is is that if you have enough cloud,
you can get your money its source. Maybe a lower
royalty for them, but you can get it as source. Okay,
let's pull back the lens because we've talked previously that
you know, used to be a lot of your time
was spent negotiating record deals, but it shifted to a

(16:47):
great degree to live business. Can you comment on that please? Yeah,
I mean in terms of our personal time, you know,
we will as more and more of these deals are
done with one single promoter will do it in some
ount of work on that promoter deal. But we also
tours are very labor intensive. Tours require contracts for things
you don't normally think about, like, uh, somebody to build

(17:10):
the stage, the trucks, the buses, the crew, the band,
the dancers. I mean, there are all kinds of things
that go into it, insurance issues. So tours are actually
quite a bit of work. Um. But you know, I
wouldn't want to say that it shifted the majority of
what we do. I just say it's just a big
part of it. Okay. Uh, So let's assume I make

(17:34):
an overall deal with live nation or concerts West. You
mentioned all those things. Those are the responsibility of the act.
Where does the line between the responsibility the act and
the promoter lay for life? I'm not sure what you
mean by responsibility. Okay, you're talking about hiring people, insurance, etcetera. Okay, No, No,

(17:55):
the act, the act does all of that that. The
promoters deal is just simply we're gonna pay you X
to show up and do y concerts. I mean, there's
a lot more to it than that, obviously, but that's
that's the essence of what the contract is. Uh. Every Then,
the act is responsible for delivering the show. So they're
hiring the band, they're hiring the the crew, they're hiring

(18:17):
the buses, they're hiring the trucks. Okay, and let's just
assume the venue is not owned by the promoter and
there is an accident, I would assume the act gets
sued in addition to the promoter. Yeah, there's an age
I legal theory. If you're going to throw a party,
you invite everybody, So anybody who is anywhere near what
happened is going to be sued along with it. Okay, Now,

(18:47):
you know, let's talk about a superstar act might go
out with twenty trucks, uh, crew of dozens, etcetera. To
what degree are you involved in the micro management? What
I mean by that is someone gets five A or
a a roadie gets, you know, their ankle broken. Do
they call the attorney or their layers before it gets
to you? Um? Both? I mean, yes, there's layers before

(19:10):
it get to us. But anybody being fired or any
kind of injury or insurance issue, we're going to be
involved in it as well. Okay, And let's just talk
an overall deal with one of those international promoters. Who
ultimately comes up with the price and who does the negotiation? Um,
Usually it's the agent that does the negotiation of the

(19:30):
major terms, uh and the prices you know a marketplace mitting.
You know, they'll look at their history, they'll project what
they think they can do, they'll figure out a percentage
of it, they'll want to guarantee of a certain amount
of it. And it's just part of the back and forth. Okay. Now,
a certain number of superstar is don't have an agent

(19:52):
at all. Do you see what do you see the
future of the agency business being? Well, I think the
agencies bring value. I'm mean, I think they have a
lot of knowledge that even I mean, there's a few
managers that are perfectly capable of doing everything, but for
the most part, the agents have a depth of knowledge
and relationships and knowledge of other deals, knowledge of routing,

(20:15):
knowledge of UH you know, what the marketplace is like
in different places that I think makes invaluable and particularly
for managers without that expertise, I think they're an important
part of the team. Okay, let's talk because you're on
the artist team. Uh. In the old days, everybody paid
ten percent, but a very successful artist usually does not
pay his agent ten percent. What is your experience there

(20:37):
and what's the negotiation like. Well, if you're bringing in,
you know, a tour that's you know, a hundred million
dollars there, it's unlikely they're going to pay ten percent
for it. But it's negotiated very specifically in each instance. Uh,
you know, it can be a very low percentage. It
can even in a few cases not so much anymore,
be a flat fee. Oh kay. In the old day,

(21:01):
certainly prior to there were six major UH international companies
in some very large independence distributed by them. So in
terms of getting record deals, how is the landscape change
as a results of consolidation in the Internet. In terms
of record deals, well, there are less buyers for obvious reasons.

(21:22):
I mean there are now you know, a number of
independents that are also in the marketplace, but in terms
of majors, there are only three. Uh. And they don't
let their labels compete against each other. So if two
labels owned by the same major are both wanting the artists,
they will negotiate jointly, or the artists will nick a
Laine before they do that because they won't outbid each other. Um.

(21:45):
But you know, as long as you get two horses
in the race, you can still have a spirited bidding. Warm. Now,
in the old days, attorneys were conduits for talent. To
what degree is that still the game? Um? I think
it's just still the game to some degree. I mean,
you know, the attorneys have more knowledge than others because

(22:07):
we can have more clients. Uh. You know, agents may
have more clients, but they're in a one lane. In
terms of overall understanding of the industry. Managers can't have
as many clients. Some of the big companies obviously do,
but I'm saying individual managers can't and lawyers are much
less of a time commitment, so we have more clients
and we see a lot of deals. So we have

(22:28):
quite a bit of quite a bit of knowledge, and
we have relationships with with people as well. So when
someone you know needs to be connected or needs something done,
we're in a position to do it. Okay, to what
did we? Are people knocking on your door wanting to
hire you to make a record deal? Um? If you
are you talking about new people in the business or yes? Yes, Oh,

(22:51):
I get a fair amount of that because of my
book All you need to know about the music business.
I get people calling me and while I did that
when I was young and starting out, I don't do
that anymore. But I have a list of lawyers that
very much like to do that if they like the music,
and I give them referrals. So generally speaking, if you
don't know someone, you refer it out. Yes, And I

(23:15):
referred out if I don't have expertise, because I think
it's important to be clear about where my strengths are
and clear about where my weaknesses are. So if I
if it's an area I don't completely understand, I'll make
sure the client gets involved with someone who does and
what would you deep your areas of expertise in areas
where you have less knowledge. Oh, it would be I

(23:35):
mean to pick an easy example, something like criminal law.
But it can also be I started life as a
tax lawyer, but my tax expertise is very rusty. Uh,
and so I'll bring in a tax specialist. Sometimes we
need help with some corporate issues if it's an extremely
complicated transaction. Um, you know people that want to rent

(23:57):
charter planes. That's especially that I and have expertise and
things like that. Okay, So let's assume you have a
relationship with someone a manager you've done business before, and
they say they want to represent the act to what
did you to represent the act? To what degree do
you make a judgment based on the qualitability, quality, or
saleability of the material? Oh? I have terrible ears. Um,

(24:20):
if I like something that's not usually a good sign
and my track rigor don that isn't terrific. I have
a couple of partners Jean Solomon, Ethan Schiffer's who haven't
had very good years, very good ears, and so I
rely on them. But primarily I rely on who the
manager is, who's the team is around him? If there's
someone at the label that I respect was interested in them,

(24:43):
So I don't make the independent judgment myself. Okay, at
what stage does it tend to come to you? Does
a manager say I have a new act, I haven't
talked to the labels, don helped me out, or I've
already talked to some labels. Now I want you to
come in when you come into the process, I'm sure
there are million examples of everything, but generally speaking, yeah, well,

(25:05):
at this stage, I tend to take more established artists
or at least mid level on their way up. We
take a few shots with young artists, but can't take
very many because our basic philosophy is were a small
firm and we try to do great work for a
fewer number of people, so I can't take as many
shots as I might like. So generally I want to
see something going on before I'll get involved. That there's

(25:27):
a buzz there, there's a lot of interest, they've got
a few labels bidding um. But we can we can
come in at any stage. We can. You know, clients
come to us sometimes at the highest level if they're
making a change. So it just depends and what kind
of fee structure do you institute? Generally we charge five percent? Okay,

(25:49):
And how do you know if they're accounting to you accurately?
We rely on the business manager, and uh, you know,
to some degree we have knowledge. We know, for example,
of a certain deal how much they're getting paid on it,
so we'll have a sense of what we should be getting.
But in general we rely on the business manager. Okay,
what about sunset issues? You mean on our fees? Yeah, yeah, yeah,

(26:14):
we are. The way our deals work is that any
contracts that we made, we get paid for while we
represent them, and then a year after and then it's over. Okay.
That's standard. So okay, Uh, you're representing an act. Labels
are interested, what's the next step? Um? We would actually

(26:37):
it would start to solicit offers and say, okay, you're
interested in make us a proposal. It depends by the
way it depends. Um. If it's a really major act,
we'll put the proposal together because we'll have a history
and we'll have a pretty good idea and we want
to press the envelope. If it's a newer act and
there's no history to it, will ask the labels to

(26:57):
make bids and then we'll start to sort them by
stone how they line up. And Okay, now you've zeroed
in on one label and you would like to make
a deal with that label. What are the arguments? So
what are the negotiations end up being when you're cammering
out the final deal. Well, we generally start with all

(27:18):
the major points. How much product is it going to be,
what's going to be the advance, what's the royalty rate? Um?
The argument used to be a lot about how much
are you going to pay for use of the songs
and the records? But that's pretty much becoming irrelevant for
reasons I can explain if you're interested why I want
to explain those. Okay, Um, those are called mechanical royalties,

(27:39):
And every time a CD is sold you get paid
a certain number of pennies. Every time there's a download,
you get a certain number of pennies every time every
time there's a stream you get a percentage of the
streaming revenue that gets paid for the songs. Now, this
is remember we're talking about two different rights. This is
a record deal, So what are buying is the right

(28:00):
to distribute physical recordings, but you also get paid for
the songwriting, which may or may not even be the artist,
but you get you get paid as a songwriter, which
is a separate payment for what you get for the
actual master recording. Those are called mechanicals, and it used
to be a major part of record deals to negotiate
the mechanicals because you get those moneys right from the

(28:22):
get go. The first record that sold, you get paid.
Whereas on your record deal they take back all the
money they've paid you for an advance and for costs,
and you may not get record royalties ever or for years.
But mechanical world is you get right from day one.
So that was a big negotiating point. What happened was
there was a couple of changes in the copyright law.

(28:44):
The first one said that record deals made after a
certain date, I don't remember the exact in the In
the in the nineties, all record all future record deals
had to pay a full amount of royalties for uh
for downloads. And what the companies always tried to do
is reduce the mechanicals, because that is money they're paying

(29:04):
out before they get their money back. And that was
the argument was how much are they going to reduce it?
So starting there they said you can't reduce it for
downloads not a big deal at the time, because you know,
big percent of the market was physical. Then along came streaming,
which is now the dominant part of the market, and
that rate is set by the copyright law and there's
no negotiating about it, and it's not even in fact

(29:26):
paid by the record companies. It's paid by the digital
service providers, the spotifyes and so forth, so that the
only thing you're arguing about now is physical product, which
is dwindling, and so it's becoming much less relevant. Okay,
going a little bit deeper, the streaming services, there's only
a hundred cents and a dollar, and Universal just made

(29:46):
their deal with Spotify. Spotify is reducing the percentage of
income they're paying the major distributors. But many people on
the writing side, the songwriting side, believe eve that the
percentage that went to songwriters was too low to begin with.
Is there what's your viewpoint on that and is there

(30:08):
any way to claw any of that percentage back? Well, um, yes,
that's been an argument for quite a bit of time.
The argument on the record company side is we're making
a much bigger investment, We have much more risk and
much more expense than the songwriters do, and the songwriters
of course look at it the other way around. Um
And when it comes to synchronization licenses, the songwriter, the

(30:31):
master and the songwriter publisher are getting the same amount
of money and they think that should be the model
on the master's side too, but that we're not likely
to get there. The percentages are not far off from
the same ratio that they used to be on physical
product on CDs, which was the norm of the industry
for many, many years. UM. So I think it's going

(30:54):
to be difficult because to claw a bigger percentage, it's
got to come from somewhere. It's not likely to come
from Spotify. I their rate is set by by the
copyright law though, uh and so there's not a lot
of negotiating around it at this point, and in fact,
they're getting escalations that goes up over time. Okay, talking
about Spotify d cents they've recently in the last few months,

(31:18):
especially going deeply into podcasts, Wall Street has reacted very positively,
believing there's a lot more profit A can you explain
to what degree this reduces labels income and how this
is going to play out? I don't think podcasts will.
Now this is just my personal opinion, but I don't

(31:39):
think podcasts are going to reduce labels income because I
think it's a different audience. I mean, yes, of course,
we only have so many leisure hours, and how we're
going to suspend it, whether it's watching TV or or
watching streaming shows on Netflix, or uh, listening to music
or listening to podcasts. Um. You know, podcasts require you
to actually sit in constant trade and listen music. I

(32:01):
can have on in the background and so and I
can be doing other things at the same time. So
I don't know that there is directly competitive as it
might seem, but I can understand why they would think
it's a good source of income. Okay, but let's be
very specific. If there's a hundred cents in the dollar,
let's just make numbers round in sixty goes to audio streams.

(32:24):
Doesn't the sixty percent that recording companies would normally get
be Aren't they reduced by the amount of time that
people spend listening to podcasts. I would think that that's right.
I would think that, you know, and the overall allocation
of how much it goes to music and how much

(32:44):
goes to podcasts. Yes, I think that. I think it
would to some degree if they are truly doing it
on the same basis. Now I'm not you know, I'm
not directly involved in the Spotify ideals. I don't know
if they're based on music streaming or if they're based
on a dent of the service and it would take
the podcast out. But if that is what they're doing,
then yes, you're right, it would reduce music. Okay, So

(33:06):
let's go back to the record deal. The points that
you're negotiating, uh, whether it be historically and how that's
changed now, or what you're still negotiating now. Okay, UM,
I think I had covered most of the major parts.
The other things that are interesting these days are exclusivity. UM.
That used to not be as big an issue as

(33:28):
it's become over the last number of years, and the
reason for that is that historically, UM exclusivity was limited
to basically devices that were delivered to consumers. And the
only wrinkle in that one was that they had audio
visual devices, which in theory covered at the time video cassettes,

(33:49):
and if you were in a movie that was out
on video cassettes, you could be in breach of your
record deal. UM, something that was an easy fix if
you new enough to ask about it. Now, the exclusivity
is so broad that it covers anything you do, uh
in any way communicating to the public. So, whether you're
on a radio show, a TV show, UM, you're on
a doing a concert that streamed at festivals, all these

(34:11):
things fall under the exclusivity and the record company needs
to either consent and or get paid for it. Okay,
into what degree are you experiencing the three sixty deal?
The three sixty deals is which if anyone isn't familiar with,
is where the record companies in the crash of the business. Uh,

(34:32):
starting in after UM said we can't make money on
traditional sales of music anymore. We're putting a lot of
money into making your career. You're making a lot of
money outside of records because of what we're doing, So
we want to share in your other income besides just records.
Those are called three sixty rights, and they've become very

(34:52):
much the norm and presdent in the industry. Uh. If
you have enough clout, you can get them cut down
to small numbers or even get rid of them sometimes. UM.
But every label, whether it's independent or major. Now once
three sixty rights is their initial go round. You can
also cut back the areas that they apply to UM.
So for example, maybe they only apply to uh the

(35:15):
songwriting or publishing, or maybe they only apply to uh,
you know, touring, UM. But they are very much here
to stay for the near term. In the long term, well,
I guess we'll see. And how do those percentages break down?
They're different. Uh, they can be anywhere from the most
aggressive I've seen. Are some labels trying to take more

(35:37):
more in the norm is somewhere in the fifteen to
twenty or range. And on touring they try to take
it on the gross, but a smaller percentage because uh, well,
run tour in the beginning of your stay of your
career could probably lose money, not make money, and they
shouldn't get paid on the growth of that because they

(36:00):
get you'd be losing money and paying your record company.
At a higher level tour, the artist still may only
gross fifty or sixty percent of of what they're growth, sorry,
may only take home fifty or sixty of what they're grossing.
And so the record companies, uh you know, want to
get paid on the higher number. And more importantly, they

(36:20):
don't want people playing games of throwing all these expenses
into the tour and make it look like they lost
money just so they don't have to pay the record company. Okay,
is it a straight percentage for all third party activities
or does some third party activities have a different rate.
It's all negotiable, but yes, they're they're not necessarily the
same percentage overall, So you might have You might pay

(36:42):
them only uh, you know, five percent on tours or
five percent of gross on tours. Uh. And you might
pay them five or ten percent on publishing, but you
pay them on merchandizing. I'm making this up, but they
can be different percentages, okay. And generally speaking on the
touring deals, are they gross or are they net? You

(37:04):
mean from there? Yes, they usually try. Sometimes they'll do
a combination. You know, we want of net, but not
less than seven and a half percent of gross, or
they'll just take a percentage of gross. And now traditionally,
although you say it's not that much the case today,
the record companies have screwed the acts. How does the
record company know the accounting to them is accurate? A

(37:28):
good question. They all have the ability to audit, come
in and look at the books. Uh. In my experience,
they don't generally do that, although I've seen it happen
where they'll come in and make sure that they're getting
a fair count, and they'll want to they've gotten pretty
sophisticated about touring. They'll want to see budgets, projections. Uh.
And they may not let you deduct expenses like your
manager or your agent, on the theory that they, you know,

(37:51):
if they're getting paid full vote socials the label. Okay,
let's go back to commitments. What kind of commitments are
you seeing these days in terms of number of albums? Yes, okay, Well,
interesting question before we even get to the number of
albums or whether or not the deal is going to
be based on albums, because albums may or may not
be the norm in the years to come, likely won't be. Uh.

(38:13):
So some companies are are are willing to go to
you know, we'll give you twelve or fourteen masters as
opposed to an album. Uh. Some companies are still holding
onto albums and want to negotiate it when we get
there if albums aren't the right way to go. But
in general speaking, they're gonna want it. For a new artist,
they're gonna want to have the options. Probably they'll commit

(38:36):
to one album, and what the options for uh, you know,
two or three more uh, four more established artists. You know,
you might limit the entire deal the three uh. And
in fact, for newer artists, they're gonna want much more
than that. They're going to try and get four or
five albums total for part of the deal. Now, it
used to be historically no one would uh let anybody

(38:57):
go in California under the seven year rule, but there's
been some leakage there. What do you think about the
seven year rule applying to recording commitments today? Well, the
record companies did a pretty masterful job of lobbying the
California legislature to exempt record deals from the seven year statute.
Not saying you can't get out of your record deal

(39:18):
after seven years, because you can, but saying that the
record company could sue you for the profits on the
undelivered masters, and the profits on the undelivered masters could
be much more than the artist is going to make
going to a new company. So in effect, they've got
the artist to where they can't really terminate under the
seven year statute. And to what degree do you have

(39:39):
managers coming and saying I want this deal based in
a state other than California because it advantages to them. Um,
you mean because of the manager's enforcement of their of
their contracts. Right, unless there's a New York manager or
some sort of connection or the artist and the new

(40:00):
are on the manager in another state, generally they don't
seem to object to that. Um. A few try every
now and then, but you need some kind of connection
to where the law that's going to apply. Okay, now
let's talk about advances. Advances. What's the range today? What
are the commitments? Well, it's so you know, fact specific

(40:24):
and dependent on how much heat and what kind of
genre and uh, you know, how many people are chasing
it or what's the history. It's really really hard to say.
I mean, you can see for you know, for artists
that have already a significant UM streaming history that's building.
You can see multimillion dollar deals for people who have

(40:47):
never had a record out before. UM. At the same time,
if you're a rock band, you know, you might get
a few hundred thousand because nobody seems to want rock
right at the moment, which I personally find said Okay,
that big the question. Someone comes to you and the
act is not hip hop or pop. To what degree
do you say, listen, this is not the major labels expertise,

(41:08):
they probably don't want it. You're probably best to go
somewhere else. You know, that's more of a manager's call
than ours. Uh, genuinely, because I don't know that I
have the expertise to say that. I think I can
certainly say that it's a harder sell at the major labels,
But I think the labels still want some rock acts.
I think it's just it depends on an anar guy

(41:30):
getting our in our woman getting excited about you. Okay,
Just going back to an earlier point, reauditing on a
three sixty deal. Used to be these record companies had
an amazing number of employees. They would buy tickets, they
would sponsor stuff. There are many fewer employees. They're much,
you know, less tight than they used to be. To
what degree does this affect the development of the act

(41:53):
and also affect whether they're able to uh stand up,
whether it be an accounting or any other battle with
the artist. Well, I think that, um, you know, the
expert if the record company is genuinely excited about someone
and can and will really put the resources behind them.
I think they can still be very very effective. And

(42:15):
I'm sorry to think I understood the second part about it. Well,
I guess you know, if there are ten people working
there instead of a thousand, certain balls dropped through and
and low, that would be make the act angry. That
would also mean they're not enough eyes to pay attention
on my three sixty deal. Uh. Well, I look, I
I have not had the personal experience, but I certainly

(42:38):
know of artists that just ignore the three sixty and
don't pay them. Uh and uh, you know, but it's
not something I've had a direct experience with. Okay, so
I'm a I'm a new act, new developing act. What
do you tell me about the publishing? Hang onto it,
own it, don't sell it. Uh, you know, try to
make a deal for somebody to do what we call

(42:58):
it an administration deal, which means that they will take
care of it for a period of time, but you
continue to own it and uh and you get it
back at the end of the term or a period
of time after the end of the term. Let's assume
I make a deal with a major label. What would
be the admin deal like and would there be in advance, Well,
it wouldn't be with the label, it would be with
a publisher or but that the publisher would know that

(43:21):
there's a big company behind me, therefore in lockstep, they
would make a deal with me for the songs. Yeah,
it's it's again very very dependent. I mean, if you've
got you know, a track history of streaming and it's
building and you've already got multimillions of streams, you know
you're gonna get a much bigger check than if you're
a brand new artist has never put out product and

(43:42):
the labels excited about you. Uh, you know, you might
get in the latter situation, you might get a funder
thousand and the other you might get, you know, into
the seven figures. And what would be the ADMD fee
that would be collected against that. It's directly dependent on
how big an advance you want. The bigger advance us
you want, the bigger the admin fee that the company

(44:03):
that the publisher is gonna want. Uh, the what they
would love to get is of each dollar for an
admin fee, you can get them do as low as
ten percent, meaning of the artists. But the lower you get,
the lesson an advance you're going to get because they
don't have as much margin. And to how long do

(44:25):
these initial publishing admin deals tend to last three years
generally something like that, but they can also be based
on a certain number of songs. In other words, particularly
if there's an advance they I'll say, you know, we
have to have a certain number of songs before you
can move the term forward. And they may want options

(44:46):
beyond the three years, okay, and their options and the
options are based on what usually what are the triggers. Well,
the trigger would be either nothing that it's completely at
the discretion of the publishing company, or if you can negotiate.
Sometimes they can't do it if they haven't earned more
than a certain dollar amount during the period. But that

(45:07):
isn't always meaningful becus they haven't learned that much. They
may not want to they got the option anyway, but
it's still a good protection to build in for yourself. Now.
A lot of the acts from the late sixties and
early seventies had we version clauses because the company's thought
that these records would ultimately be worth nothing. To what
degree are those gotten today? And also the issue of

(45:29):
ownership of the underlying copyright. Are you talking about records now,
are publishing? I'm talking about the record deal, record deal. Uh,
it is, yes, you're you're quite right. There was a
versions because everybody assumed they'd be valueless after ten or
fifteen years, and those were easy to get back. Then
not so much anymore. The companies the masters are their

(45:50):
companies uh, primary assets. So they are much less likely
to part with them these days if they if they
can avoid it, if you have enough cloud, you can
make a deal where you own your masters and you
basically rent them to them. Uh and uh. And so
that's still doable, but it can be again, it can
be a period of time. It would be not a

(46:11):
short period of time, maybe ten or fifteen years after
the end of your term of your deal. Uh. And
it would be dependent on you being recouped, although we
negotiate and ask for the right to if you're unrecouped,
I say a hundred thousand dollars, we give you a
hundred thousand dollars, and then we get the masters back
right away after this time period is up. And one
thing that has always you know, bothered me is a

(46:32):
recording costs, a recording cost. If you go into a
studio and you pay a dollar, doesn't matter whether you're
a superstar or you're a new artist. Yet you recoup
at different rates. Can that ever change? Well, you're going
to recoup at your royalty rate. The higher your royalty right,
the faster you recoup. I guess yeah. I feel before

(46:55):
you get the royalty rate dollar for dollar, if you
spend a hundred thousand dollars making the record, okay, once
they got a hundred thousand in however, with a percentage,
but the superstars should recoup at the same rate when
it comes to costs. Then when we go to pain,
you should go to your royalty rate. It seems like
you're doubly screwed as a new act. You're getting a
lower ROULETI hated, you're recouping even slower. Yes, I mean

(47:19):
to some degree, that's true, and that's historical as to
why it work that way. Um, you can do on
a on a profit sharing deal, they will still generally
try to put some of the costs against the artists
of the profits, although that's negotiable as well. But but
when you do a profit share deal, you also have

(47:39):
things charged against you that would not be charged against
you if you were just recouping um. And that's things
becoming less relevant. But it's things like manufacturing and shipping
and freight and bad debts and those kinds of things. Again,
those are becoming less relevant. But there are some marketing
costs and promotion that might not be charged against you

(48:00):
as an artist. Uh So it's not exactly apples to apples,
but in a profit share deal you can come closer
to what you're talking about. And let's talk about delivery issues.
I have a commitment of twenty masters, the term goes by,
I've only delivered ten. What tends to happen there? Well,
the term doesn't these days. The term doesn't end until

(48:21):
you've delivered it. So the term can't go by before
you've done it, because the record companies got stuck with
that years ago and changed their contracts based on the
fact that now they're saying, you know, the termines x
months after delivery of the product for that term. Okay,
let's go back to you originally, I mean I know this,
but for my listeners, you originally from where Dallas, Texas?

(48:45):
And how many generations is your family in Dallas. Um. Well,
let's see, my grandparents on one side were in Dallas.
The other ones I think we're in Houston or Galveston. Wow,
so they why did they end up in uh? Texas? Uh?
The short answer is I'm not sure. Um the because

(49:06):
I never knew those grandparents who had the chance to
talk him. I know that my father's side, you know,
came through Ellis Island, went to New York, drifted down
to New Orleans and ended up somehow in Galthaston. My
mother's side came through one side came through Canada. One
side games for Kansas City. I don't know the exact

(49:28):
story of how they got there, but that's where they were. Okay.
You know Texans, and I know people from that area
attend of a lot of pride in Texas. Do you
have that pride? Um? I like Texas? I mean, I
uh it's It's not a place I would choose to
live today, but I loved growing up there, and uh
it has a lot of unique and sort of fun

(49:49):
aspects to it. Okay, and your parents did what for
a living? Uh? My father was a lawyer in Dallas. Uh.
Interesting guy rep presented abes a pruder the guy who
took the Kennedy films and and represented Jacob Rubinstein, who
changed his name to Jack Ruby. Let's slow down that

(50:12):
faithful weekend Friday, Kennedy gets shot in Dallas. What was
it like being in Dallas? Then of course the chapter
with Jack Ruby. Then of course there's a pruder chapter. Well,
those are all a bit tied together. I was not
in Dallas. I was in Austin. I was in college
at the University of Texas when Kennedy was shot. Um

(50:32):
and I went to Dallas the next day it was
Thanksgiving and uh my, in fact, we went over to
abes a Brewer's house the following day because my he
was He was related. His daughter was married to my
first cousin. So my father on the drive over says,
don't talk to Abe about the Kennedy film. He's sick

(50:53):
of it. Everybody's hounding him. Don't say a word. So
we get there and everybody's sitting in a semicircle and
Abe striding back and forth with great gusto telling this
entire story. That's why it always is. And Okay, what
about Jack Ruby. Uh, he was a small time guy
in Texas that years before the Kennedy assassination. My father

(51:17):
represented him when he changed his name from Jacob Rubinstein
to Jack Ruby, and I just I think it's a
pretty bizarical incidence. Uh. And then once what once he
shoots Oswald? As your father involved in any of the representation, No,
my dad said he called him uh and wanted him
to help, but he said, I'm not a criminal lawyer
and honestly didn't want to get involved. But uh, but

(51:40):
he did not have anything further to do with him.
What do you and your father believe was Oswald the
lone gunman? Was Ruby acting purely on anger and inspiration,
you know? Uh. My dad's theory was he was a

(52:02):
small time guy and not that connected and probably acting
on his own Ruby that is Oswald. I don't think
either of us have any better idea than anybody else. Okay,
so you're growing up. How many kids in the family?
Just me? Just you, It's me. My parents got divorced
when I was five years old. So, uh, this is

(52:24):
another thing I did not know. Your parents get divorced
and what are their paths? Well, my dad stayed in Dallas,
he had a law firm there, and my mom moved
to remarried to a disc jockey who had a was
a colorful personality jock and uh in Dallas, and got
a job at kf w B in Los Angeles when
it was the uh top uh, you know, top forty

(52:47):
station and he had the morning drive. So we moved
to California. And that was how I got to Los Angeles. Okay.
So what was his handle online? That was his name,
Bruce Hays. Okay. So you go to school first in Dallas,
you go to public school or private school? Public school? Okay?
And at what age do you move to Los Angeles?

(53:09):
I was twelve, okay. Can you moved where in l A,
North Hollywood? Okay? And how do you end up going
to college back in Austin Um? When I got out
of car and when I was getting out of high school,
I realized I spent more of my life in Texas
and California, and I thought maybe I'd want to go

(53:29):
back and live in Texas. And my mother and my
father and my grandmother, who graduated from college in nineteen seventeen,
pretty unusual for a woman, had all gone to the
University of Texas, and I thought, Okay, I'll get out
of l A I'll give it a try. And so
I went to UT And did you get in state tuition?
I think I did, actually, because my my father still

(53:52):
live there. Okay, you know Austin has seen as super
hip today. What was it like when you went to college?
It was a hot and eight degrees from super hit.
It was a football team with no African American players
because the coach said he thought it would demoralize his
boys to uh to put as he put it in. Yeah,

(54:14):
it wasn't like it was a pretense, Um. It was.
It was very very football beer. Um. And I was
not a particularly good fit. I was it was. You
might ask why didn't transfer? And the answer was it
never occurred to me? Um. But I didn't really enjoy
it till my second year when I started a band

(54:36):
and we had what I believe was the first mixed
band in UH in Austin history. We had a black
singer and a white band and UH and that when
we started playing frat parties and we're booked pretty solid.
Then I had a great time. Okay, A couple of questions.
When did you start playing music? Um? I started playing

(54:57):
music when I was young. I played the accordion when
I was, uh, you know, six or seven years old,
and I took up the guitar in high school and
I took up the banjo when I was in law school.
And so I've always loved music. Okay, So when you
have this band, this is pre Beatles in Austin, Yes,
And what kind of music are you playing? It was

(55:18):
mostly R and B and it was we were just
cover bands. We had a couple of original songs, one
of which has become a bit of a cult hit.
Uh and uh, I've had collectors called me and I
want to buy some of the forty five from the era. Um.
But but for the most part it was a cover band.
So what was the track and what was the band? Oh?

(55:40):
The band was called Oedipus and the Mothers, and the
track is how it used to be. And do you
have any for I have I think one or two left? Yes?
Did you? Did you sell any of them to these collectors?
I saw one of them because the guy seemed really
hot for it, and sincere about wanting it? So yeah,
And what did you study the UT I majored in history.

(56:03):
I was going to major in psychology because I was
enjoying in those classes. So much. But you needed to
take analytical geometry and statistics and I did not. I
took analytical geometry, had no clue what they were talking about,
ended up dropping it. So I minored in psychology, basically
taking every class except those, and majored in history. Okay,

(56:26):
you graduate from UT do you immediately go to law
school or do you take time off? No? I went.
I went directly to law school. Less common in those
days to take time off than it would be today.
To what degree did you go to law school because
your father was a lawyer? Big part of it. Um.
But at the same time, I always enjoyed arguing, I

(56:47):
always enjoyed logic. I always enjoyed, you know, trying to
understand complex things, make them simple, figure out how to
what motivates people, and how to move things from one
side to the other. So it played very much into
what I was interested in. And your desire was to
go to Harvard. Yes, and you know, I'm needless to say,

(57:07):
there's the one l book, there's you know, there's the
paper Chase. What was your experience at Harvard Law School? Well,
paper Chase was written by one of my classmates. Um,
but I I and I loved it. At Harvard Law School,
I thought it was the most intellectually challenged I've ever
been in my life. It was a lot of really interesting,
bright people in my class. I thought the professors, you know,

(57:30):
some of them were dullards, but for the most part,
we're interesting and engaging. And I was intrigued by the
subject matter. So I really enjoyed the experience. And you
graduate in what's the plan? Um? The plan was. I
had two offers, one from a I thought I wanted
to be a tax lawyer originally when I went to

(57:52):
law school because I liked tax and intricate problems and
um and so. But then after my second year, I
saw a firm put up a thing that said entertainment
law was one of their specialties, and I've never heard
of it, and I thought, oh, that sounds like fun.
And so I was thinking about whether I should go

(58:12):
to an entertainment firm or a tax firm. But I
decided to try a tax firm. A firm here and
I lay called Irell and Manella, which is now mostly litigation,
but then was a premier tax firm, and I had
an offer from them. So I took a summer clerkship
with them, and while I was here, I interviewed with
several entertainment firms, including the one I worked for now,

(58:32):
And when I graduated, I had an offer from both
at an offer from my real and an offer from
a gang Tire, which is my current firm, and I
went back and forth about it, but I really said,
you know, come over here and do tax work and
we're going to start an entertainment area. You can do both.
You can be part of the beginning of it. And
it sounded intriguing and I ended up going there, and
as soon as I got there it was not a

(58:55):
good experience. They put me into mergers and acquisitions, which
I had no interest and I wasn't doing tax I
wasn't doing entertainment. And I stayed there about it, and
then I took a class at USC on the music business,
talked by Jay Cooper and Irwin O. Spegel old timer's.
Uh Jay's still around, Irwin isn't um And it was

(59:16):
so much fun. I thought I'm wasting my time. So
I went back to gang Tire said, hey, I made
a mistake, and uh, fortunately they let me switch and
I've been there ever since. And how long after how
long did you actually work at IRAL in Manoa? About
eighteen months? Okay, So you start at gang Tire in

(59:38):
what year, nineteen seventy two? Okay, you know there are
billboards on Sunset, the music businesses burgeoning. Do they immediately
put in music or I don't know about gang tied
or what degree there in other entertainment venues. Yeah, they
Their theory was you should do a bit of everything.
So I was doing film, I was doing music, and

(59:58):
they were doing litigation in those days, which I did
not particularly enjoy, but it was part of the process.
I ended up, in fact, doing two trials with a
senior partner. But I couldn't wait to get out of litigation.
Uh and uh. And I was so passionate about music
that they eventually sort of got it and let me
start moving into the music as opposed to the film

(01:00:18):
and TV side of it. And who was the boss
of the music in when you did that, Well, Bruce
Raymer was doing a lot of it, and Payson Wolfe,
who was really my mentor, was was doing most of it.
When I started out, the firm was representing almost all
record companies and publishing companies on the corporate side, and uh,

(01:00:40):
my heart was always on the artist side. But it
was enormously good training. In those days, they didn't have
as much in house capability, so the larger deals they
would farm out to us and we were So I
got this great training doing really sophisticated deals on behalf
of the record label, dealing with all the talent lawyers
in town, and learned a draft and I learned what

(01:01:01):
everybody was asking for and it was a fabulous education.
But my heart was on the artist side. So I
set out to build an artist practice. And how long
did you were you at gang Tied before you started
working on the other side. Um, well, it was gradual,
because you know, that wasn't most of our business. So

(01:01:23):
I had to build the artist thing from scratch. I
started doing it pretty quickly, just but that was because
I just took anybody to walked in the door. Um,
I go to be in my showcases, I go to uh,
you know, just ask anybody to send me whatever, because
I just wanted to get experience and I wanted to
start to get into the artist world. So that begs
a question, although you're referencing it, to what degree did

(01:01:45):
you work trying to get a client base, and how
did you actually get a client bass Um slowly was
the answer. But yes, it was something very intentional and
something I worked very hard for. It was My theory
was is that if I met as many people as
possible that were my age, then when they grew up
in the business, I have relationships. I knew that was

(01:02:06):
a long term strategy, but I didn't think a bad one.
And then I just went out and not as many
people as I could. I remember you you were speaking
once at the Beverly Hills Bar Association, probably ninety or something.
Did you consciously take all those speaking gigs to drive
your business? I did, uh, and that and I like
speaking anyway. Um Uh, as a friend of mine says,

(01:02:29):
I'll go miles to hear myself speak. So what was
the turning point? What client pushed you into? Uh? The
story you are now? Um. Probably Heart was the first one,
and then Tina Turner was the second. I think when
when I had both of them, that really changed the game.
And how did you get them? Uh? Different ways? Heart

(01:02:52):
came through their producer was a client of mine and
they were looking to make a change, and he got
me an introduction to him. Uh. Tina came through her manager,
who I had met on the other side of a deal,
uh where we were representing, and I got to know
him and when he looked to make a change, he
called okay. So this always pigs a question when you're

(01:03:14):
an attorney, do you look back and say, not specifically
with the act you mentioned, Oh, if I knew what
I do now, I screwed up. Yeah, you know, I
honestly don't. I mean, obviously I made mistakes along the
way everybody does. I don't know that I would change
the overall strategy. It was just frustrating because it took
a long time. Um, and uh, I watched guys my age,

(01:03:37):
you know, sale passed me and and do better, and
that was that was frustrating and a little disconcerting. But
I you know, I was I just determined to be
the tortoise in the race, if not the hair and
it came I think in the time frame that it
should have. But I can't point to any particular thing
that I think is a major change. And to what

(01:03:59):
did we do? These acts change attorneys at this point? Yeah,
it depends on the artist. I mean, you know there
are people that change attorneys like they change their sneakers. Uh,
and there's other people that stick around for years and years.
Our philosophy is different from a lot of our competitors.
Were a very small firm. There's only three lawyers doing music. Uh,

(01:04:21):
and do paralegals and uh. We want to be able
to give really and you know, hands on service to
a few number of clients. So we're selective about it.
We take and one of the things we look for
is someone that we think, uh, you know, is a
good person and that we can have a long term
relationship with. And your name is finally on the door.
How did that happen? Oh? Just maybe just because it

(01:04:45):
was time? Okay, So can you tell us a couple
of tales from your career? Uh that you know that
people would like to hear around the fire. Unfortunately, a
lot of what I talk, you know, I've learned I
can't talk about because attorney client privilege. Yeah, exactly. UM,

(01:05:05):
so it may be a little too general of a question.
So okay, now you have other interests for someone who's
working so hard. First, let's talk about the book. How
did you decide to write the book? Well, I was
teaching the class. I told you I took at USC
on the music business. I ended up teaching, and I
was taught it for about three years, and it dawned

(01:05:28):
on me that I had in my class note outline
the outline of a book. And there was only one
book on the music business at the time, called This
Business of Music, and it was it was a good resource,
but it was very difficult to read, and even as
a lawyer, I had trouble understanding parts of it. And

(01:05:49):
I thought, you know, there's a need for a very
easy to read overview for people who are musicians oriented.
Their ears don't like to read. Uh, And you know,
so I wanted to write something that was simple and
easy to understand. I always wanted to write a book
all my life. I started and stopped trying to write
a book and never really finished one. And I thought,

(01:06:10):
you know, here's a chance to put together a bunch
of things. And I thought there was a need in
the marketplace to do it. So I literally grabbed a
dictaphone I started talking based on it, and uh, you know,
about a year and a half later, I I had
I had the book and was it instantly successful. I mean,
I'm inside, so I'm viewing this you know a little differently,
but a book like that has to sell a certain

(01:06:32):
number of copies to be worthwhile. He what was the
initial was the initial publisher Simon and Schuster. Yeah, it was.
It was a story was I was at dinner at
at an event next to Michael Ovits, who at the
time was at the height of his powers, and I
told him, was telling him about the book, and he said, oh,
let me sell it for you. And I'm not an idiot.

(01:06:52):
If Michael Evits wants to sell my book, I went sure.
So I sent him the book and a week later
I have two offers from uh, from two different publishers
in New York. So I got on a plane and
I went and I met him and Simon and Schuster.
The editor who wanted it was a twenty seven year
old guy at the time who was in a band
on weekends and completely got the book and it was

(01:07:13):
very helpful in terms of helping crafted as well. So
I went with them, and uh, you know it was.
It didn't happen immediately out of the box. It took
time for people to get used to it and uh,
and then I did a lot of fublicity around it
at the time. And I thought, you know, it'll be
a long, slow build, but it seemed to start to

(01:07:35):
build and built by word of mouth. And we just
released the tenth edition last year. And how do you
decide to update it? I generally do it about every
three years. This one took four years because streaming so
up into the business that I had to seriously and
radically rewrite the book, the most extensive rewrite since the

(01:07:56):
first edition. Really, uh, and because it just I mean,
things you wouldn't think about, like the CD royalties were
first in the chapter on royalties. Well that's obviously almost
irrelevant now, so they're not first anymore. The whole publishing section,
the way the industry was shaped has changed over the
last four years. It's just it's a very radical rewrite.

(01:08:17):
And you have these other interests. You've written novels, you
play poker, you have magic. Could cover those a little
for us, sure. Basically, I'm a serial obsessive and I
go to um, you know, I had intensely involved in something,
and then I'll burn out and move on to something else.
And I don't relax by doing nothing. I relaxed by

(01:08:39):
doing something very different, but just as intense. I don't
know why. It's just the way I'm wired. So uh.
You know, magic was a hobby since I was a
little kid. I drifted and out of that one UM
Poker I've been playing the last number of years pretty
seriously because I enjoy it. And I was in a
regular dame until COVID hit UM the backgam and I

(01:09:01):
started recently and uh and took some lessons and I
found out that was fascinating because it turns out it's
very mathematical, very strategic, and not that I love math
all that much, but I can enough to understand how
it works. Um and you know, and then I just
drift in and out of various other interests. Well, I
know you've written these books, these novels. Uh, do you

(01:09:24):
has that something that sort of ended because you talk
about being a serial obsessive. Has your focus changed from that?
It comes in and out. Actually, I have another novel
that I finished last year that I'm still editing and
working on. Uh and uh. I I have someone optioned
one of my novels for a motion picture, and I

(01:09:44):
worked on the script for that no idea if it
will actually ever get made. But that was fine. I've
never done a script before, So it just depends I
have to go with where the news takes me. And
how bit a magician are you? I'm pretty good. I'm
a magician member of the Magic Castle, which means you
have to take a test in order to be admitted.

(01:10:05):
And uh, you know cards mostly I'm I'm a bit rusty,
but I could still fool you, okay. And how good
a poker player are you? I'm pretty good. I play
at pretty high level games. I wouldn't say I'm a
great poker player because the guys that do it full
time in the pros are obviously at a whole different
level from where I play the game. But I can

(01:10:28):
hold my own. I can play in a game and uh,
and not you know, not be the complete dufus. So
what kind of when you say it's serious, what kind
of players? Oh? I mean, you know, it just depends
on news. In the game. I'll go to I'll go
down to Commerce where they have a the world's largest
poker room, or I'll go to Vegas and that at
the higher games, you're gonna get professionals and you're gonna

(01:10:49):
get you know, serious players. Um, but it's it's you know,
for me, it's just fun. I mean, I'm not gonna
play with my I'm not gonna lose the house. Okay,
So what's your biggest loss in your biggest win? Um
M hmmm. I don't know. I mean, you know, I
don't play gigantic stakes, but I think i've I've lost
a few thousand in a session and I have won

(01:11:10):
a few thousand in a session, but somewhere in that range. Okay,
You've been through a lot of changes. You got in
the business, went from vinyl to cassette. I think you
were kind of you know, came in towards the end
of the eight track. We went to c D, went
to streaming, We went to touring being the dominant amount
of money. If you look in the crystal ball, what

(01:11:30):
do you see coming down the line? I think it's
gonna be streaming for quite a while. I mean, I
think it's such a good experience that I'm not sure
what more you could want as as a consumer. The
ability to listen to anything you want, any time you
want it, and the ability to have it curated if
you want to curated. Um, I think that's going to
be the dominant thing for for quite a bit of time,

(01:11:53):
I'm genuinely don't have I did see streaming coming a
long time ago, before the technology is there, but I don't.
I don't have a vision of what's coming next to you. Well,
I think streaming is in because he's on demand. So
that's we come to the end of the game, which
is so much of what's happening in you know, we
figured it out in the music business. They're still going

(01:12:15):
through wrenching transitions in the movie business, television business, etcetera.
But I was really asking overall, Okay, used to be
the record companies were big banks. You went on tour
to promote the record. You've made most of the money
on the record. Now that has flipped. Okay, used to
be record companies supported you over a period of albums.

(01:12:36):
Right now hip hop is dominant on streaming services, not
necessarily dominant on the road. Do you see any trends
playing out? I think that, Um, I don't have a
specific trend that I see, except to know that it's
cyclical that I you know, never nothing ever goes in
a straight line, and things come in and out of

(01:12:57):
vogue and in and out of fashion. So I think
that will change. I do think that there's something in
the live experience that you don't get any other way,
and so I think touring will always be around for
the right kind of artists that can that can tour.
But I don't see any any I mean, particularly now
with COVID, it's pretty hard to spot much of anything.
But I don't see a change in the trend hip hop.

(01:13:19):
I think it has been nominant for quite a period
of time. It's just a lot more blatant now. Okay,
used to be the barrier to entry to be in
the music business was very high, assuming getting a record deal.
Now the barrier to entry is almost non existence. We
can put anything up on these streaming services. In terms
of your viewpoint, it would seem that the development period

(01:13:41):
would be longer. And what do you say to new
acts today? Well, honestly, I don't have a lot of
interaction with brand new acts. I mean, by the time
they get to me, um, they're usually a little bit
farther along. But I think that the thing that I
say in my book all you need to know about
the music business is that you've got to build a

(01:14:02):
bus before you go anywhere, and you've got to do
it yourself because nobody's really going to do it for you.
It's got to be you know, you've got to develop
an online following. You've got to develop a fan base.
You've got to uh, you know, get out and get
a story, get some streaming, get some action, get some
numbers on SoundCloud, on the streaming services before you can

(01:14:22):
move it to the next level. Well, don I think
we've come to the end of the feeling we've known.
This has been extremely informative. We also learned more about
who you actually are, where you come from. Thanks so
much for doing this my pleasure. Thank you about until
next time. This is Bob left stands