Harold Bronson

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Stats Podcast.
My guest today is the one and only Harold Bronson,
one of the original Rhino Brothers, and he is the
man who started the Rhino Records label. Harold, good to
have you, happy to be here? Okay, So what do
we know? You know, we're parking our cars, and I say, hey,

(00:28):
do you come here to Hollywood often? And then you
merely start going into rock history? So tell me what
was going on here? Okay? Well, first of all, um,
when I was a rock rider in the nineties seventies,
I used to come here quite a bit because the
record companies were here except for Warner Brothers in Burbank
and Universal and Universal City. And then, uh, Rolling Stone

(00:51):
was on Sunset Boulevard at the l A office. Where
was Where were they on Sunset Boulevard? I think it's
I think the cross street was Seward. Okay, outside of
the street didn't looked like a building that Raymond Chandler,
you know, might have been in. Well, how much of
a presence did they have in Los Angeles? Rolling Stone? Um, well,
initially very little. And then at this point, Um, Judy Sims,

(01:17):
who had been a publicist at Warner Brothers Records. Then
she became the l A editor and she's the one
who found the space. But anyway, as we were walking in, UM,
I remarked that, um, on this street, at sixteen oh
a Cosmo Street, there used to be a club called
beato Letos, which was really significant. Um. I think it

(01:39):
was to sixty eight. But uh you heard a lot
about it because I love played there a lot. But
also the doors, um, the seeds, the iron butterfly. And
according to Arthur Lee, if my memory is correct, that's
where the Rolling Stones came in and saw them do
a long song which is fired them too when they

(02:01):
recorded Aftermath to do uh um coming home for the
lengthy one. Wow. Now did you go there yourself? I
was a little bit too young, A little bit too young.
Now were you too young to go to Pandora's Box? Yes? Okay,
So when did you start going to shows? Okay? So
I grew up in Westchester, which is the community, the

(02:22):
l A community by the Los Angeles International. And let's
be clear, because I got in trouble once the you know,
I said somebody, I went to a record I went
to a ski shop in Westchester, they said they have them,
and I was this person was from Los Angeles. We're
not talking about Westchester County outside of New York. We're
talking about a town a burg here in Los Angeles, right,
Which is interesting is yeah, if I didn't clarify it,

(02:43):
when I would say Westchester, most people would think New York, right, Okay,
But anyway, it was a little bit too far out
of the way to have easy access to Hollywood. So
for instance, you mentioned Pandora's Box, it was probably like
twelve miles away. That's, you know, pretty far if you're
taking one or two busses. Um so um. I first

(03:07):
started seeing notable rock and roll groups in ninety seven,
but mostly in the early uh and and throughout most
of the seventies. Now, these were on their way up
in clubs. Who you're talking about going to shows and
a Monica, you know, the Forum, etcetera. Yeah, all yeah,
all that stuff. Yes, Okay, Now you started the Rhino

(03:28):
Records label. What was the first release on the Rhino
Records label? Okay? Um? Wild Man Fisher was a an
outrageous street singer that Frank Zappa really loved what he
was doing, and so Frank Zappa recorded a double album
with him, Caught an Evening with wild Man Fisher, and

(03:51):
actually didn't sell that well. Um I checked later on
about twelve thousand copies, but there was a legendar. Everybody
knew about it, right, everybody knew at it. And so
what's the famous song on that? All of a sudden
there you go round, which I could sing if you want,
but so um. Anyway, Uh, he used to come into
the store on occasion, and he felt like a rock

(04:13):
star because not only do we know who they he
he was, but I had his record, Richard Fouss had
his record, just his record, Yeah, like we all had
his record, so we felt like a star. And on
more than one occasion he would come in when we
opened and he stayed the whole day, which was not
the most pleasurable experience, but anyway, as a way to

(04:35):
show his appreciation, he made up the song A cappella
called go to Rhino Records, and I called up Jeff
Gold and I said, come on over with your cassette
recorder and we recorded him doing two passes in the
back room and we put that on an A side
and then Richard and I a couple of other employees
recorded a B side, and originally we pressed that up.

(04:58):
What what was the B side? Rhino the Place to Go.
It was talking about how we were so much better
than all the other stores like Errand's and Moby Disk
and places like that. And who wrote that? Richard and
I wrote it? Okay? And was it acapella? Also? No, No,
it was he played bass, I sang, Steve Rosen played guitar,

(05:18):
and his brother Uh played drums. Steve Rosen was a
writer who people would know. And he worked at a time.
I hired him for a time at the store. Okay,
And that was recorded also in the back room. No,
that was it the Rosen family, Uh residence in Culver
City in the garage okay. You know it's funny because

(05:40):
people always hear about stuff being made in the garage
in l a one thing they don't know it's warm.
But converted garages, I mean like Jan of Verry, of
Jan and Dean, A lot of people started in the garage. Literally,
this wasn't converted garage. This was just a garage. And
I brought in my tape recorder and Mike's and that's
how he did it. But you had a tape recorder UM. Yeah.

(06:02):
First of all, UM, I had my first tape recorder.
I think I'm not sure if I was like fifteen
or sixteen. And then I upgraded, but you know, the
whole thing was, hey, you can take the songs off
the radio, which which I did, but then that didn't
necessarily mean that it stopped me from buying records or
lots of records. And then UM, at a certain point,

(06:24):
UM I upgraded to a UH A Sony tact multi track.
I got a deal on it. I'm new, but I
got a deal on it. But anyway, we're getting ahead
of the story. So what happened was we just pressed
up five hundred forty five just to give away to
our UH customers as a present whether they thought it

(06:46):
was there, and then somehow it filtered over to England
and John Peel, a noted UH underground disc jockey who
has then had a show on the BBC for many years,
had a show in the BBC he's toted playing at
and UM so our record came out in and then

(07:06):
we started getting requests from England and other places, so
we pressed up a thousand to sell. And what's interesting
is UM at the end of nineteen seventy six. Again,
this is in England. John Peel had a top fifty
listener requests and most of it was typically Number one
was Stairway to Heaven, No surprise there. Number go to

(07:27):
Rhino Records by wild Man Fisher. Okay, now you've got
a lot of ink in the calendar section. It was
a tabloid in the l A Times. And you told
me it happened organically that you weren't busy pitching them.
Is that the same way it worked with wild Man Fischer?
Did someone send it to John Peelard? He just find it.
I have no idea how it got to him, No idea,

(07:48):
no idea. Okay. Rhino Records was a store now. Originally
Richard Fuss had sort of a record department in the
store in Santa mob. When did Rhino Records the actual
store start? Um? Yeah? So uh, Richard out grew Apollo Electronics.

(08:09):
He had a little concession in part of the store.
Um and it was October nineteen seventy three that he
opened the one on West with Boulevard. I guess rent
was a lot cheaper on West with Boulevard. Then well,
then it went up and then it went back down.
Again what happened was it was Ninon's Electronics, this guy
who used to repair electronics back when that was still
a thing. Right, He moved to the back room and

(08:31):
he rented Richard you know the bulk of the space
that I remember that I was wondering what was going
on back there. Now I got the complete story. Okay.
Now when he established Rhino Records, did you shop there? Well? I, um, okay,
here's how it happened. Um. A famous record store in
l a history, Lewin's Record Paradise on Hollywood Boulevard. Um,

(08:55):
they had the English imports. Okay, just to stay for
those people going back to this history. What was Wallax
Music City in this whole hierarchy. Well, Wallax Music City
was big. They were on the corner of Sunset in Vine.
Um big records selection. Um, they only sold it list price,
which meant that but they had listening booths and but

(09:19):
they also had sheet music and they had uh instruments,
you know, smaller part. But it was so let's say
like if you were in the music business, you would
shop at Walax Music City was right there. And in fact,
Glenn Wallack was one of the original partners in Capitol
Records right now. Obviously forty five didn't come shrink wrapped.

(09:40):
But let's say you wanted to listen to an album
and they let you listen to an album and the
we're listening booth, we're not too unshrink it. But they
would have playable copies. And did you ever do that? Yeah?
Not often because again you know, driving from Westchester, but
I would say maybe at least two, maybe three times. Okay, So,
but there was this other story you were talking about, Okay,
Lewin's Reck Your Paradise. So, um it was local exactly

(10:03):
where I'm not sure the exactly address meanybe like sixty
SidD Hollywood Boulevard, um you know around um Um Highland.
I saw um some roughly. Um So the idea with
the English imports at the time, they were like extra

(10:26):
songs because of a different way of calculating the publishing.
And we'll just explain that to my audience how they
calculated the publishing difference where they understand. Okay, so um
uh in England the publishing of course was for the
songwriting and the publishing, not the uh, the recording artist,
and um so that was a flat rate per side,

(10:50):
per album. So if you had five songs one side
or eight songs on one side, it was the same.
In America, it was always a sense rate per song,
so if you had a thirty second song or a
two minute and thirty second song, it was the same.
So that's why our Beatle albums were totally different, Yes, exactly.
In fact, a lot of those you'll see there were

(11:11):
less tracks on the American albums. I think only later
did people realize that the English pressings probably sounded better.
So it was originally for the either songs that weren't
that you couldn't get here because they were extracted from
the albums, or else different lineups. But anyway, in um,
this was early nineteen seventy two. At that point, um

(11:34):
the albums were the same on both sides of the Atlantic.
So Lewin's was um uh. To try to survive, they
were selling bootlegs, and I was, you know, as any
music fan is, you know you wanted the bootlegs, right,
So I was, you're talking about bootleg live recordings or
studio What kind of bootlegs did they have there? Well,

(11:56):
it was mostly live recordings at that point, and then
you know, a little bit later than they started doing
out takes. But as I was thumbing through the bin,
I can't remember if I said something to the southern customer,
but because you know, I thought the prices were high,
and he said, oh, there's this guy at you know,
Paul Electronics in Santa Monica that you could you know,
he's cheaper and you could also trade your records so

(12:17):
you're not out of pocket. So that's where I met Richard.
And then from going to the store, you know a
number of times I really liked him. Um, he was
low key, but there weren't not there weren't many customers,
so you could talk with them. And as many records
did he have? Since I never went there, how many
records was his inventory? Generally? Um, um, hundreds if not thousands? No, No,

(12:48):
And so anyway, so I knew him. And it's interesting
is that when I left for England, um, for my
second trip. So so again this was probably uh Lates
timber ninety three. That's after you graduate from college. He
graduated June juno. Yeah, so he Um, he didn't have

(13:09):
a name for the store. But I thought because I
liked him so much, I saved up my good promos
and I brought him and I said, look, you know,
I want you to start, and you have, like the
bins look really good. So I mean he paid me
for him, of course, but it was a type of
thing that um uh, the suggestion I had for the
store because I was this is not when he's opening

(13:31):
the new store in Westwood. Yes, I said, because I
was a big Kings fan. I said, like Waterloo Sunset Records.
And then I left and then of course when I
came back, the store was open and it was Rhino Records.
Well it's funny. There is a Waterloo Records in Austin.
I've been there. Yeah, the guy runs it, owns it,
a great guy. But how do you know how it
ended up becoming Rhino? Um, I know exactly. Um. Okay,

(13:53):
they didn't have a name, so he and a few
of his friends they were just throwing out, you know, names,
and this one who was a budding DJ by the
name of Jerry k he suggested Rhino. And I think
just primarily because of the alliteration, you know. I just
maybe later on we found meaning behind it, but at
the time that's all it was. Okay, let's go back.

(14:15):
So you're in Westchester, Uh, what does your father do
for a living? Um? Okay um? So my father UM
didn't see a need to go to college, and he
took what he said in high school was a commercial course.
And he was like he was born in America, born

(14:36):
in Los Angeles, and now his parents were they born
in America? His parents Romania um so Um. He became
like a bookkeeper and he was working in the Mojave
Desert for the Torazzo company, which people know draws roso
because of the floor with the you know, the and

(14:56):
it was like so hot out there. He told me
that in the morning for breakfast he would have like
a steak in a malted milk and not eat the
rest of the day because it was too hot. And
again there probably wasn't air conditioning back and you know,
at a certain point he had, you know, like this
is it and he quit, not realizing that it was

(15:18):
the early stages of the depression and getting another job
was not going to be so easy. So your father
was born in what year? Okay? So your father was
relatively old? Yes, okay, so um anyway is uh um?
I mean to make a long story not short. But

(15:39):
his brother in law UM was in the hostel produce business.
So just to be clear, he married your mother when
he was working in open mohave no much later, but
his brother in law for one of his siblings, exactly
for sister, so he had two sisters. So anyway, um
so uh so, and then that kind of went bankrupt

(16:00):
and he stayed in the wholesale produce business, not because
he liked it, but because he needed to, you know,
have an income for his family. And then at a
certain point, um, when I was in high school, when
he got um eased out by the competition, he went
to work for the post office. And originally he thought
he'd be really great to be a mailman, but he
worked in the weight room downstairs for fourteen years until

(16:23):
his vision deteriorated. But he really liked you know, working,
so um. Yeah, my my mom was just basically a homemaker. Okay,
but this begs the question where did you get money
to buy records? Well, initially I had very little, and
it was I did chores around the house. And my

(16:44):
first job, um was the summer after I graduated west
Chester High and um it was working as a ostensibly
a bus boy at the restaurant or coffee shop on
the top of the Broadway department store in Westchester. Um,
a dollar six, I was promised, oh yeah, plus tips,

(17:08):
but I never signing tipps. Um. And also the other
thing is, even though I was hired as a bus boy, Um,
the dishwasher quit and they were very very rarely replacements.
Sometimes there would be like a replacement from one or
two days, usually with alcohol on their breath. So that
means I was busting all the tables and washing the

(17:29):
dishes totally on my own. Um. And but I did
learn how to make an egg cream. Okay, but let's
go back a little bit. Um, how did you first
get turned onto let's call it rock and roll? Well, Um,
I was aware of music here there, and bought a

(17:52):
record infrequently because I didn't really have much money and
wasn't a big fan until of course, the Beatles. So
the Beatles chain did it all for me. Um, not
only the music and how vibrant and exciting it was,
but also in the UH press conferences, their sense of humor.
You know, you have to really give that um uh

(18:14):
a lot um because if you'd heard comments from like
the four seasons of the Beach Boys, they were really
dull and you know, or Elvis, you never had anything
to say, and you know, the the Beatles were like comedians,
so that kind of drew you in. And then of course, uh,
you know, a year later, I mean I was already

(18:34):
a big rock and roll fan, but A Hard Day's Night,
UM was just uh then as well as now, such
an amazing movie. And even though when you read about
the Beatles much later and you heard about the unseeming
elements about them, but still, you know, Hard Day's Night,
for however fictionalized it is, I mean, that's you want

(18:54):
them to be. That that's who you want, Okay, but
you obviously you would rich and this is sort of
the basis of the Rhino Empire. Had a wild sense
of humor. Did your family have a wild sense of humor? No,
my mom did have a sense of humor, but not
in that way. UM. So you know it's interesting, UM,
and you know you could identify with this from how

(19:16):
we all grew up. And a lot of that influence
was TV. So not only were there a lot of
um comedic TV shows like I was a big fan
of Sergeant Bilko and then subsequently Car fifty four, Where
Are You? Um? But also um, because of TV being
relatively new, you had a lot of older movies that

(19:38):
were uh syndicated on TV, like the Marx Brothers for instance.
So probably a lot of that irreverent humor came from
the Marx Brothers. I mean, not solely them, but probably
primarily then because they were so out there. Okay, now,
before the Beatles and too a certain degree concurrent, there
was a huge so cal sound. There was the surf sound,

(20:00):
there were instrumentals, there were the beach Boys, Jan and Dean.
Were you aware of all that? Yeah? But I didn't
really listen to the radio. So obviously I knew about
you know, Surf City and some of the surf songs
and you know, uh, you know, uh four Seasons a
little bit there, but I didn't really listen to the radio.
Was more kind of in passing or maybe a sports

(20:20):
night in junior high. The records got played, like you know,
Louis Louis and things like that I would pick up on.
But I and prior to the Beatles, I did not
listen to the radio. Okay, And did you buy Meet
the Beatles? Yes, of course, actually my parents did. But anyway,
what what you mentioned before? So when I had the
bus boy job. That's the first time that I actually

(20:43):
made money, and then um, after that, in the fall,
um a friend of mine worked at a small market
in Westchester called Hillmart. So, uh, he got me a
job at Hillmart. So I worked there for a number
of months, and then the following summer fed Coe, which
was a discount the best buy if it's era right,

(21:06):
and I was during the summer, I was a socker.
They called it a soacker. But after that I started
to make enough money so that by the following year, Um,
I didn't need to get a job. So I didn't
make a lot of money writing, but I made enough
so that I didn't have to. It would be like
the equivalent if I had a summer job. Okay, so

(21:28):
you go to college at u c. L A. And
you famously have a band. Were you in bands before that? Well,
we had a a band at Westchester High We didn't
play anywhere. It was just kind of because of my
tape recorder and be like, hey, let's what do we
sound like? And you know, when you're not doing much,
that's you know, you get together. What was your incentive

(21:49):
for buying the tape recorder? Well, I told you before
about getting the free music. Okay, so that was your
main incentive to buy it, so you could tape off
the radio right before, you know, before I got the
four track, which was you know, oriented more towards that's
why recording the band subsequent to high school. Okay. So
but in high school you did have guys come over
and you would sing into the uh, into the tape recorder. Yeah. Yeah,

(22:13):
we had, you know, people who played music and you know,
that's what we did it. And yeah, I mean this
was something you you would say you're in a band,
or it happened, you know, every week, or it happened
once a year, mostly during the summer. But it wasn't
like anything to brag about, like hey baby, I'm in
a band. It wasn't like that was there a name
well okay, because of UH, I was intrigued by certain

(22:34):
names like the Jefferson Air playing the Strawberry alarm clock.
So I came up with Mogen David and his wine
own and everybody agreed it. So that was an act,
but that was still when you were in high school.
You called it that. Yeah, okay. Then you go to
you and you were always the singer. Yeah, you know,
I couldn't really play an instruments. So okay, you go

(22:55):
to college u c l A first, because I thought
about this is a amazing. When I went to college
in Middlebury College in Vermont Saint Era, I was like
the freak. And then I came to l A. There
were a million people like me like it, were addicted
to records and going out, etcetera. When you go to
l u c l A, you're living at home. You're
living in u c l A. The four years, three

(23:16):
of the years I lived at home. One year, Um,
we had an apartment with three of my friends. I'm
Beverly Glen. So the question is did you immediately find
your tribe when you went to u c l A. Okay, Um,
first of all, what's interesting. I want to point out
a couple of things. One is, in Oliver Stone's movie
On the Doors, you see a concert and you see

(23:37):
everybody has, you know, long hair, and um, that really
wasn't the way it was back then. And even at
u c l A. I'm not gonna say that nobody
had long hair, but relatively few people did. And people
dressed you know, pretty straight or if they were sloppy
you'd say, like, you know, hippies. Um. But uh, the
other thing is, um pretty aware as far as the

(24:01):
concept of fraternities and fraternities seemed old hap to me,
and the concept of you know, the hazing and all
that stuff, it was it seemed like another era to me.
So when I started to write for the u c
l A Daily bruin and over a time it was
almost like you know, my fellow writers and music fans.
Because it was in the entertainment section, it almost was

(24:23):
kind of lack of fraternity. We tended to like each other.
We would go to the shows if somebody had, you know,
a couple of tickets, Hey, you want to come with me? Um?
So yeah, it was and also not only the camaraderie,
but a lot of smart kids and people who dis
distinguished themselves in varying levels. And also um, you know

(24:44):
for me, you know, really learning how to write. Okay,
but let's go back. When did you start the band
up in college? Okay? So after high school? Um, you
know it was kind of forgotten about. And then um,
I didn't get the four track until after like after
I graduated. So um, one of these So basically, how

(25:07):
did you pay for the four truck UM well, because
I was making moneys a right, I think he was
maybe around a thousand bucks something like that. Okay, But anyway,
so music writers, a lot of music writers played musical instruments, right, right,
So that's how kind of like to uh reinvigorate the band.

(25:27):
So this was UM December uh Jonathan Kellerman, who subsequently
became a New York Times bestselling author on guitar Excellent
guitar player, Jim Bickhart, who was my editor, who on bass,
Tom Madie from high school on piano. Um. There was

(25:48):
a friend of mine from high school who was in bands,
who was a pretty good drummer, and he agreed to
do it, and then on the morning of he said
he wasn't going to do it, but I'll own you
my drums. So I was like, so piste off I put.
You know, we got everybody together. So I ended up
playing drums um and I never really played before you
although you know you'd practiced, so of course everybody did

(26:11):
so considering that it actually turned out pretty well. So
two songs Um nose Job, which was a cover of
a Mad Magazine song, and then Tom and I wrote
a B side so that was all recorded, the instrumentals
on one Sunday, December, okay, but then the band continued. No,

(26:33):
that was it, okay, But that what happens because the
sinking function of the Selles sink function on my tape
recorder messed up. It took many months later until the
next school year of in the apartment on Beverly Glen
with my neighbor who I wasn't familiar with before, George
Carlin and his family. So I became friends with him

(26:55):
and his wife. And anyway, he loaned me his tape
recorder and in the um in the bathroom with the
tile in our apartment, that's where I recorded the vocals.
So I actually I pressed that myself. Um that was
I think November nine seventy Um, yeah, yes, so but anyway,

(27:21):
um and then so originally I did two records on
my own, two and then I did an album which
came out in July. Whoa, whoa, whoa. How does Richard
get involved? No, he's this, He's not involved. So this
was on Kosher Records, okay. And so basically a year
or two later, when we decided to do The wild
Man Fisher, I came to Richards said, I know how

(27:43):
to do this, so my band and doing it on
my own. This was really a few years before the
late seventies. You know, do it yourself. Um yeah, so okay,
let me be clear. You cut the record in December seventy.
Was Paul Rappaport part of the Bean then? Um, no,
he was. He came in a number of months later.

(28:04):
What happened was he was a college rep for Columbia Records,
and uh, he came into the at a certain point.
He came into the u c l A Daily bruin
and ingratiated himself and so I liked him. And anyway,
he I think he'd heard um nose job on the
u c l A station and he loved it. And

(28:27):
he got from me. I can't remember, it was ten
or twenty copies. Of course he gave me promos and
exchange no money, but it was fine with me. Better okay.
He ended up being a promotion right. So later that year,
so again this was in um December nineteen one. Then
with him on guitar, I put another put together another

(28:49):
group and we recorded two more songs in an actual
eight track you know, a little budget, but an a
track recording studio, and UM that came out a few
months later, so and and and then of course he
was on the album and Uh in two we played
a handful of dates and he was in that band. Okay,
so let's just get the structure right. Summer seventy you

(29:11):
cut these couple of tracks, but they don't come out
until sevent seventy one, and Richard is helping you distribute them. Um. Okay, wait,
let me make a correction. Correction, correction. The nose job
was in December sixte Okay. And at this point, once

(29:32):
the record is pressed, what do you do to sell it? Well? Um,
Among the first couple of forty five, it was because
I knew a number of writers. It was, you know,
getting record reviews and they would list the you know address,
send in you know whatever we charged for it. Um,

(29:54):
that didn't really sell that much. Um, and what happened.
I'm gonna tie this up. So I put together, like, uh,
kind of a best of of a lot of the
tracks we had, UM, including the second single we did
with Paul Rappaport and UM. I did an album and
it was kind of like live at leads where I

(30:16):
had inserts on it and the luxe packaging, and um,
I don't know how many people got the joke, but
there was an exploitation Beatles record in nineteen sixty four
that had the Beatles backing Tony Sheridan and it was
called Savage Young Beatles and it had a picture of

(30:36):
them from Hamburg with the leather jackets. So I knocked
that cover off, calling ours savage Young Winos and I
borrowed uh leather jackets from Michael Oakes and we did
like a cover that looked like, you know, pose like them.
So what I wanted to say was so again going

(30:56):
to London three there was a friend of Jeff Gold's,
Larry de Bay, who was a um no, actually you
know what. That was seventy six but it still ties
in the So the Rons have gone to h made
a big splash in London a few months earlier, and
on the cover I'm guessing because we looked like the
Ramones with leather jackets. Um. When I went to London

(31:19):
that year, it was like with two boxes of Winos
albums that he paid for when I gave him to him.
And again I don't think it anything to do with
the music. What it was just because we looked like
the Ramones I was kind of okay, just to be
clear the original singles and album where they district? Was
Richard involved whatsoever? Um? No, that was way before him
and um at a certain point. Yeah, I sold copies

(31:42):
out of the Rhinos store. This was in Um. Okay,
let's go back. When did you decide you wanted to
be a writer? Okay, good question, because I wasn't thinking
that in high school. Um. I'd read a review in

(32:05):
the u. Cly Daily Bruin of the grassroots album Golden Grates,
which I thought maligned the grassroots. Okay, and I and
I thought, you know, I could do better than this.
So I went to the u c A Daily Bruin.
And I been there in college Okay, so, um, I
started h September, So this was uh the spring quarter

(32:30):
of sixty. Feeling you've already you know, know what's going
on in college? Okay, you go in, Okay, they say
you gotta come back when the music gets here. He's
here Tuesday afternoon. You've got to speak to John Mendelssohn legend. Yes, Now,
I'd read him in the Daily Bruin and brilliant writer
brilliant like head and shoulders above anybody, and later, you know,

(32:51):
when I would read them in Rolling Stone again head
and shoulders above anybody and also excellent taste. First question
he asked me when I told him when they're right,
he goes, do you like the who? Now? I said yes,
And I heard that people who said no didn't write
that year. So that's that's an aspect about Mendelssohn that um. Yeah,

(33:15):
there's a lot of positives about him, but you know,
because of his psychological makeup, you know, there was also
aspects about his behavior that alienated people, including uh, negatively
affecting his um you know, career momentum. Shall we say
we ultimately we had a band Christopher Milk. Yeah, Well
what happened was at first I didn't make the connection,

(33:36):
but um Um and Orientation, which was two nights during
the summer of nine UM living in one of the
residence halls. One night they had a dance, or I
should say they had a band, and it was his band.
And I really liked the band, not because I thought

(33:58):
they were musically good, because they weren't, but because they
played songs that nobody would play like. They played the
Mighty quinn Um and they you know, they did who
songs and they did I think little Richard maybe keep
a knocking, But just the song selection was, you know,
so different, and you know, really good songs. So I said, oh,
you know, what's the name of your band? And one

(34:19):
of them I thought I misheard. Instead of saying Christopher Milk,
they said I thought Christian Milk. And then later on
I kind of figured out, oh yeah, that was the
guy in the band. Um. But anyway, initially he gave me,
he said, pick any album you want to record, I
mean recorking me review and um at Crane's music in Inglewood.

(34:40):
I bought. I was a big Easy Beats fan, and
the first album had Friday on my mind. Of course,
the second album, I was unfamiliar with any of the songs,
but I was such a I like the first album
so much. I bought it and that's the one I reviewed,
and he went through it, you know, with notations, and
so I mean my first I think that was not

(35:01):
for publication, but the first maybe a couple of things
he had a hand in assigning or editing before he
graduated and went on to greener pastures. Okay, so you're
right for the Daily Bruin. Throughout your college career? Yes,
how many times would your articles appear? Um? Maybe like

(35:25):
a couple of times a month maybe? And then when
you're a senior, who's the editor? Um? Okay? Well I
mentioned it went from Mendelssohn to Bickheart. Um. When I
was a senior, um Stan Berkowitz was a He was
the editor of the entertainment section that I wrote for.
But he was a film major. But he loved music.

(35:46):
He would go to we would go to concerts together.
You're a major, was what? Um? Okay. When I uh
entered U c l A. And I'm not sure where
I got this notation, but I thought i'd be a lawyer.
He didn't have pre law. They recommended political science. UM.
I was reading these textbooks, which I thought were really boring.

(36:08):
At a certain point, I thought, you know, I don't
feel like going to law school for three years. Um.
And by the time I kind of realized what I thought.
Two majors that i'd like, they weren't really viable. UM.
U c l A had journalism classes but no journalism major.

(36:29):
And film. I liked film um and um, but it
was a little bit too late for me to I
think apply because it was highly competitive. So at that point, Um,
it was the early stages of you could make up
your own major and if you got it approved, you
could graduate under that. So, UM, I came up with

(36:50):
this thing. I think they named it sociology and the media.
So uh, film music sociology. Probably the best way to
describe it is using an example like High Noon, which
I think was nineteen fifty two. But okay, high Noon
was this eighteen eighties western. Um, but it was an

(37:11):
allegory for um standing up to communism and during the
McCarthy era. So even though it was about you know,
this Western, it dealt with these contemporary themes. Um a
different film people know, uh Chinatown, Well that was a
metaphor for Watergate. Okay, Uh, you're also become a rep

(37:35):
for Columbia Records. How does that come together? Um. Paul
Rappaport was and is a year older than me. So
he was leaving. I said, hell, can I, you know,
replace you? And uh he said yeah. So UM I
felt really fortunate. Uh. Not only because of that, but

(37:59):
I thought at this point, Um, I wanted to get
a job in the music business because I had become
a little bit familiar with some of the departments, like
the publicity department some of the others, and you know,
I love the music and um, and I thought this
would be a good stepping stone, so I thought so. Um. Anyway, yeah,
that was my senior year now at that time, mean,

(38:22):
that was a huge program and million people ended up
working in the industry. But what you tell me is
they did not offer you a job, whereas they had
offered a lot of other people's jobs. Well, I'm not
really aware of a lot of other people. I mean
I know, um, um the local people from southern California,
like you know, um, the Long Beach person in the

(38:44):
USC person and UM myself. Maybe there was one other. Um.
By the way, I did a great job. I got
um lots of ads on the u c l A
radio station because they loved me, because I gave him promos,
right even you know, things that like Birds of a
Feather by par of Your and the Raiders and things

(39:05):
that didn't become big hits. I put on help to
put on some concerts. Um. I had a really good
relationship with the four record stores in West Village, so
and then also with my writing and at this point
I had gotten a few articles in Rolling Stone, so
I thought I was primed and either nobody at Columbia
could foresee the potential that I subsequently had or at

(39:29):
any of the other labels, and I was really kind
of crushed. Well that's my question, were to what were
you disheartened? Well, very much so. But part of it
you have to understand is, um, you know, I was
still basically a shy person. I'm not gonna say I
wouldn't talk to anybody. But at the time, I think
Paul described it as like, uh, you know, you didn't

(39:51):
you know, you didn't hang out, you know, doing drugs
in the bathroom, you know, like with like the other
guys where they would like, you know, think that you
were like on a level with them or part of
their you know, areas team. So you know, I was
just more focused on the music and valuing the music.
And yeah, I wasn't really thinking about, um, you know,
the politics or positioning yourself. I wasn't thinking that. Okay,

(40:13):
so you graduate from college, you go to England, you
get back, you get a job with a trade okay. Um.
On my way back from England, Paul said to be
a good idea to visit the people at Columbia or
CBS in New York. So on the way I I
my mom was visiting her relatives in New Jersey. So

(40:34):
I did that and I went to and I met
you know, the main person was in college there. He
asked me a question and you didn't say there was
any jobs available. He said, you know, would you be
willing to move to New York? And I said no. Um,
But anyway, the only thing that struck me, Um. I mean,
he was okay, But the person who was really enthusiastics

(40:57):
to see me was Sandy Perlman, who was the man
inger and producer of Blue Oyster Cal Did he also
write the lyrics along with one other person? I mean
I don't think he did. I think, well maybe with Meltzer,
because Meltzer they were, you know, classmates in college together,
Richard Meltzer. So anyway, but it was kind of like odd, like, oh, yeah,

(41:17):
here's Sandy Permon who I barely know, and yet he's
given me this warm welcome and you know this other
guy didn't. But nonetheless, um, I remember after that, Um,
you know, the Los Angeles Times classified and thinking about
jo I want to be a night manager at Jack
in the Box, Like like what else could I do?
You know, reading the ads and you know what, I'd

(41:39):
really be unhappy doing that. And then at a certain
point my dad suggested taking the Selective Service UM UM
test and the Civil Service. Sorry, how did you get
out of the draft? Um? Well, first of all, there
was the student deferment and then I didn't have a
hind number, but it was high enough, so you know,

(42:03):
if they I don't know if they went up to
like one oh nine, maybe mine was one four or something. Okay,
so you're you're not gonna be a night manager, So
what gig do you get? Now? I was just I
was living at home and um, you know, writing and
you know, going to the record companies being hopeful. And
then after taking the Civil Service exam UM, I was

(42:24):
offered a placement UM it was called um a four
month placement to be a passport agent because UM this
was for the handling the influx of summer travelers. So
it's like it started in April, early April, and it
was for four months. So it was a hundred and

(42:45):
fifty dollars a week. The office was in Lawndale and
I was a passport agent. Four times I was UM
looking in a judy cating as they called it. UM
applications that were sent from post offices Saturday. Um was
my day for being out with the public. Okay, So

(43:07):
how does that end? And how do you end up
working for cash box? I believe it was alright? So
um again that ended? Um, August seventy three, I had
passport money. Let's go to England. So wait, you had
that four month There was not a continuous job with
the civil four month places. By the way, I have

(43:29):
to say it's I didn't get any letter that said, oh,
by the way, would you be interested in I never
got I mean I didn't pursue it because I wasn't
you know, I didn't. I didn't like wearing a student
tie every day, but none but none didn't an office.
So you go to England? Um? Yeah, and I did,
you know, for fun, but you know, record companies did
some interviews um, and then UM coming back still looking around,

(43:53):
looking around. But I've been after Richard after he opened
the store. He had one full time employee, and you know,
but he wasn't doing that much business. UM. And in fact,
Richard said, I think within the first few months. There
was one day when he was working that not one
customer came in. UM. And then a certain point this
employee UM left and he hired me. And this was

(44:18):
probably UM April seventy four. And then uh UM a
short time after UH, Toby Mamith said, oh yeah, cash
Box magazine is looking for a writer. So he recommended
me to cash Box and I interviewed and I got
that job. And UM, I thought I was doing a

(44:38):
great job. I thought, you know, like I rolled up
my sleeves, I could really upgrade, you know, the caliber
of writing in this And after the end of two weeks,
on the same day that Nixon was fired, I was
fired and I was shocked. I wasn't expecting it. I
thought I was doing a good job. They didn't tell
me why, but I think I surmise what happened, which

(45:00):
was you wrote a negative review, right UM. No. Well,
first of all, um UH, the managing uh editor said
something to me that never would have crossed my mind. Again,
I'm you know, music writing, you know, he said, the
most important thing in the magazine is the advertisements, or

(45:21):
anything between the advertisements is secondary. Nobody explained it to me,
never would have thought about it. Um. I got a
call from Um, one of the local guys at Ireland,
who wanted up bringing Jim Capaldi by Jim Capoldi's second
album and just come out. He wanted him to be
interviewed for this one column was just backed up by

(45:42):
five weeks and a couple of days ago. I just
interviewed Rick Wright from Pink Floyd. So why do I
want to you know, I just thought, you know, this
is really backed up. So I said, look, really backed up.
Maybe I could review the album. Wanted to send it
over and I think that that's what caused me to
be fired because they were going to buy an ad

(46:05):
or something. Well, because you know, I didn't have the
guy come buy and interview him. Okay, So when you
got the job at cash Box, where you're still working
at Rhino or you moved up No, no, I was
working at Rhino. Fortunately I was able to get my
job back, and at that point, again rolling up my sleeves,
I thought, so okay. So when I had interviewed Peter

(46:26):
asher Um and this was in the summer of one,
he was one of the things we talked about was
when he was at Apple records, and he said, you know,
you could be fired for no reason at all in
this business. And then you know, it happened to him,
and then it happened to me, and I felt, look,
I've got I had my own apartment. You know, I

(46:46):
have bills. You know I I need a steady job.
So I, um, you know, focused much more on uh
Ryano and I worked my I became manager. And the
initial steps where Richard wasn't into paying bills, so he
was just throw them on top of the cash register.
And I said, Richard, you know, do you mind if
I pay these bills? Sure? So I would see like

(47:06):
he had delinquent charges. So I said, look, let me
pay the bills. At least I could save you money.
So that was kind of the first step. Uh. And
then I got you know, more involved. Okay, so how
did traffic ultimately spike? He said he worked there and
there was nobody there one day. Oh okay, Um, what
gradually built? And I I was able to get at

(47:28):
least some of my friends to trade their records in.
But you know, when you live in Hollywood, you know,
Westwood's kind of inconvenience. You'd rather be errands and you
know on you know Melrose near Fairfax, right, but you
know some people did come. So I I tried to
help him, and um, you know, I tried to do
different things, and Richard was into doing uh promotions and things. Um.

(47:51):
But anyway, one thing that seemed significant, um, because we
accepted used records. Richard had a deal where he could
return a certain amount of used records as defective getting
credit for new records. Now, these were not records that
were trashed. These were records that you know looked, you know,
like they were new. But just so therefore, if you okay,

(48:14):
um to clarify, if you were a big chain like
Tower Records or the Warehouse or Sam Goodies, you brought
records for less money than if you were you know,
one or two stores and you bought from what was called,
um like a wholesaler so um. In this case, Richard

(48:40):
was advertised again this is maybe like in the u
c L. A Doom Bruin or something. It's like one
store for uh certain records like an Elton John or
whatever below list price. And the guy who owned the
warehouse chain was like, really, instanse, how could he be
getting these for less than me? So he uh initiated

(49:01):
um a lawsuit. So I was able to get my
friends in the local press like um, um the l
a free press to do like you know David versus
Goliath thing, how dare they? And I think, um that
was you know, getting that press really helped to um,
you know, collect more business for the store. Well, I

(49:23):
remember it, all these special days, etcetera. Once it heat
it up, so you do the wild Man Fisher record.
What's the next record? Um? Richard and I were really
into novelty records. I mentioned before nose Job, and I
think you remember this, you know, growing up listening to

(49:44):
Top forty in the fifties and sixties, there would usually
always be like one novelty record, whether it be Purple
People Eater or which doctor Um and uh take away
Alan Sherman, Hello Mota, Hello Fada. And it was really fun,
uh you know to hear these records. And unfortunately, you know,
subsequent generation just kind of you know, never had that experience.

(50:07):
And in fact, the first album that I bought was
Alan Sherman's album My Son the Folksing first album. So um,
so in our first year we did novelty records, which
are cheap to record, because we were the artists. We
just made up the artist. We did a little bit,
just a little bit of reissuing old stuff but a

(50:28):
little bit slower. Okay, So you put out the wild
Man Fisher record, Yes, then you say this was fun
or you're thinking we're gonna make some money or well, okay,
all right, and then we gotta think one distributor from okay,
well my only clarify. So in January eight we put
out our first album, which was wild Man Fisher. So

(50:50):
I recorded him on my four track recorder. I think
the the total recording expenses like five. I think we
gave wild Man five hundred, and Richard got a supplier,
and you know, maybe we'd sold like two thousand hundred

(51:10):
because of you know, the wild because the Frank's Apple connection.
And that was enough. So then we did two out.
We had enough to do too. By the way, we
were operating from the back room of the record store,
so there were no expenses, no overhead expenses. So then
we did too um subsequent records. One was a compilation
album of some things we've done on singles, but just yes,

(51:34):
how many and how long did you do singles before
you put on an album. All right, Um, about three
years of singles? Three years? Were how many would they sell? Um? Well,
other than um, you know the wild Man go to

(51:55):
Rhino Records, which we talked about, Um, not very much.
I mean, I don't know whether they you a hundred
or two hundred were lost in the distribution system, you know,
just not that, but not not. We're like they were
so successful, so they were hundreds, they were sold. So
this was not going to be did you dream? Were
You're just having far to your dream? If well, we'll
get this right, will make money. Well, at this point,

(52:19):
I think it was more like a hobby. Um, when
we started putting out albums, it was more of a
you know, more of an expense. Okay. So when you
put out the Wildman album three years after singles, which
was three years after the original one, you said you
found a distributor. Now, obviously stores had to buy albums,
But if you were in New York or Chicago, was
that record in the bins? Probably some? Okay, Well, I

(52:43):
can tell you where things ramped up a bit in
that first year. Um, the Temple City Kazoo Orchestra. Okay,
That's what I want to know, is that the second
Rhino album, No, but it comes pretty close. Well, then
what is that one can't Oh? Two is Rhino Royale,
which was I own that record compilation album of mostly

(53:04):
singles but slightly recorded novelty stuff and the Temple City
because orchestras on that. Could you buy RNYO Royale with
red vinyl? There was a certain point there was multicolored,
different colored vinyl. Yes, okay, so now you're gonna make
your first album. Temple City Orchestra had one cut from
their Temple City because Orchestra started getting some action, no no, no,

(53:28):
no back from the beating. I'd you come up with
the idea? Okay? That was Richard's idea to lampoon rock
and roll by doing it with kazoos, because he felt
that this was his idea. He felt that um Um
rock and roll was taking itself too seriously when you
think about um Um, Jerry Lee Lewis and little Richard

(53:51):
and like almost like cartoon characters. I mean, there was
a lot of fun in spirit of rock and roll
in the fifties and sixties, which kind of, you know,
it dissipated, you know, in the you know, and well
into the seventies. So Um. The idea wasn't just too
um oh, it's funny kazoo's playing a rock and roll songs.

(54:13):
It was also to make you know, social commentary. And
he thought that of all the serious acts, led Zeppelin
treated themselves more seriously than anybody else. So let's do
a whole lot of love. So um yeah. So that
and that started to get play. So where did you
record it? That was in a garage, not you know,

(54:34):
just in somebody. So then how many people played kazoo
on that? You know? It's mostly Richard and myself. He
did the the Robert Plant part and Jimmy Page part
and a couple of other people, um doing uh you know,
the rhythm, but with the cute thing is as we
know that, Um, with the panning in the studio on
Jimmy Page's guitar, the slid cargoes a whole lot of love. Yeah. Anyway,

(55:00):
so I did that on the kazoo, and I was
really proud that I panned the kazoo, like you know,
Jimmy Page's guitar. So how long did it take you
to cut that album? Well, that was one track and
then because of the play we were getting no, no,
not even a single just down the Rhino Royale, k
Rock played it, some other things played it, and because

(55:20):
the attention, then we did three more songs. We made
an e P Temple City Kazoo Band EP, and we
was a Temple City. Well, I came up with the name.
I just you know, it's it's a Temple City is
a community near Pasadena. I've never been there, but it just,
you know, you come up with the name. It like, oh,
that's kind of an interesting name, the Temple City, because

(55:43):
it sounded like it was legitimate. So he cut three
more tracks. Yeah, and it started to get play, um,
and it was this underground thing and what people kind
of you know, might not remember, but there was a
time in the you know, ramping up for Christmas, October, November,

(56:04):
Fleetwood Mac, Let's Link, Fleetwood Mac and some of the
big albums when like for instance, with that, well all
the Warrener Brothers presses you know were occupied, you know,
they were taking space on the independent presses. When our
record was the hottest with the airplane everything, I think
there were um, six weeks we couldn't get a record pressed.
We had no records and in fact, Paul Rappaport at

(56:26):
the time. I met with him and he said, I
think we sold a bit more, but probably we were
around ten thousand. He said, look, you know, if you
could have gotten record pressed, you probably would have been
a hundred thousand. And you use Rainbow Records at the time. Um,
we use Rainbow. Probably we were using Rainbow at that
time time. Yeah, initially when we were just singles. Initially

(56:48):
it was Monarch who did Atlantic. Now I need to
mention one of the things because of one of your guests,
Lawrence juber Um. Again this was he told us years
later that, um, Paul McCartney was like searching all over
London trying to come, you know, buy the Temple City
because the orchestra. That's kind of funny. That makes it okay,

(57:09):
So how does it get airplane? You're working in it
or is it all just you know, by luck? You
know it was by luck, but you know, and so
I would like send it out to college stations. There
are a few of the alternatives. I didn't know what
I was doing, but you know, you'd get it was
just let's basically so again back room of the record store,
and there ultimately was an album in addition to the
EP Right, Um, no, only the now when you're putting

(57:34):
out these records, you're working in the store. Richard owns
the store. Was Richard making any money owning the record store? Um?
I think, yeah, I mean, um, I don't really know. Um.
I mean I would make the bank deposits and stuff
that I never knew the the P and L and
how that might have worked. But um but at the

(57:55):
end of um, um, so, our sales were nine thousand
of for the for the the Rhino Records product. Now
that's not profit, that's sale. Of course, was there any profit? Um,
well yeah, but we just put it back into it.
But anyway, the point I want to make is so

(58:15):
because this is more fun than doing retail, which Richard
was tired of. At the end of he sold the store.
Oh right, I forgot completely about it. And then when
the two of us went as partners in a different location,
right right, Okay, but he sold the store seventy eight
you'd already moved to Santa Monica Boulevard and back before
he sold it, right, Um, yes, Because what happened was

(58:36):
the woman who owned the original location, she got talked
into Oh you know, let's knock it down, let's put
a new building and get a lot more for rent.
So we were in a you know, temporary space for
a year and a half and then we moved back. Okay.
So when he sold it and didn't he buy it
back ultimately, well, he and I brought back into it. Um,

(58:58):
But that was you know, much later, and was the
motivation to buy back into it. Well, you know, we
were already in our deal um with Atlantic Records at
that point, and I think you wanted to get back
to his roots. Okay. So now the year that you
go and he sells the store is seventy eight. Yeah,
but the last the end of seventy eight, seventy eight.
Where's your first office? Um, it's on pico Um just

(59:24):
east of Barrington, Okay, and it's just the two of you.
I'm okay. Uh. He also had a small wholesale business
doing cutouts. So it's just the two of us and
one guy who was there before for the host of business.
Who was who shipped? One guy who shipped? Okay, wait
a second, this was not the warehouse, no, okay, I'm

(59:45):
trying to remember the warehouse where Bob whatever had had
also had his office shared space. Um yes, um yes,
Bob Marin Okay, was that but this that was not
the first. That was the second, right you probably well
let me take your second. Um. I think we were

(01:00:06):
in the Pico I think maybe two three, and then
we moved to um Olympic right next to the d
m V. Okay, no, no, that was that was much.
That was that was later in terms of cash to

(01:00:29):
run it. And were you taking a salary? Um? Yes,
um once we moved to Pico, well, I mean I
was taking a salary as a store manager, and once
we moved to Pico, um, I was taking salary, but
initially came out of the wholesale side. So the wholesale

(01:00:50):
side was keeping it afloat. But I really wasn't doing
anything or very much on the wholesale side. It was
more yeah, but it was bringing in revenue, right, so
I was so until the record label could pay me.
Initially it was so then you're you're gonna make a
go of it. What do you do next? Well? Um okay?
So um the first air three areas we love the

(01:01:14):
novelty um. I had licensed some unreleased Turtles tracks for
Turtles Picture Disc, so that kind of got our feet wet.
They had already finished their lawsuit with White Whale and
they owned them at that point. Yes, UM, and so
we started and then UM and then new artists. So

(01:01:35):
those were the purview. And what happened was we love
UM promoting the better new artists. And we can talk
about the New Cats and Freddie Moore later, but UM,
the problem. I was really disappointed that like local radio
wouldn't support him, K Rock wouldn't play it. You don't
get the airplay. You know, other than a certain number

(01:01:55):
of fans, you're not gonna sell records. And was very
disheartening to know that we couldn't really help these new
artists that much. Again, same thing with the airplay, with
the novelty stuff that k Rocket tightened up, and um,
they were no longer playing like the Temple City Case Orchestra,

(01:02:17):
that type of thing. And UM, so we hit upon
reissues and slowly if we figured out, okay, that's what's
gonna do it now. At the same time, by the way,
I should mention that, UM, a lot of this is
in the Rhino Record Story, which is a book that
came out a few years ago. You're available, Yes, that
I wrote so Um, okay, you could identify with this.

(01:02:39):
Some of the characteristics of rock and roll was rebellious, nous,
anti establishment behavior, and that infused us not only in
the pre Rhino days, but as we did things in Rhino.
So a lot of things were done for kind of
mis gievous or subversive reasons. So um, Keith Richards, Ronnie

(01:03:01):
Wood after Rolling Stones tour, they're on tour as the
New Barbarians. Hey, they don't have a record out. Okay,
there was a Uh. I wouldn't say that they were
really a punk band, but there was a band that
Doug Morris produced called the Barbarians who were in the
Tammy Show, like the only unknown group in the Tammy Show.

(01:03:22):
And there's a cut on the original Nuggets album which
came out in two I said, hey, let's license uh,
you know, the Barbarians. Maybe some people will get confused
and by our record, which didn't really happen. But so
that was Lorie Records, which um Dian and the Belmonts
during the Pacemakers anyway, license it from them, but the

(01:03:45):
package is not a serious package because I don't really
think the Barbarians were very good. So what can we do?
So I made up these uh um, overly glowing liner
notes that I wrote, and I called up my pal
Peter and Noon and I said, okay, if a person
from Luxembourg, you know, what would their name be? And

(01:04:05):
he gave me like a name and I put like
from a luck the Barbarians fan club from Luxembourg. So
I mean what I'm saying is, you know, if you
kind of like read between the lines, even though it
was you know, the original recordings, you could kind of
see that we were, you know, having fun with this.
So sometimes we would do stuff like that. Not always
did people get the joke. Okay, did that album sell? Um?

(01:04:30):
It made money? I can't remember what it sold, Okay,
so maybe it did, like four or five thousand. Okay,
how much would it calls you to license something like
that back then? Well, um, okay, let me give you uh,
let me give you this. UM. The first couple albums
that we licensed from Warner Special Products, who did the

(01:04:50):
licensing for Warner Elector Atlantic um Our first Best of
Alan Sherman, First Rock and Roll Best of, Best of
Love of the Way. They would calculate it is um
based on sales of five thousand. Well, you know, they
made an advance based on that, so it's probably me

(01:05:12):
a little bit under three thousand dollars. And then of
course we paid royalties on subsequent sales. So okay, you're
doing a best of Alan Sherman. The first payment would
be three thousand dollars to us. Okay. As the business
went on, before you made your deal with Capital for distribution,
did those costs go up um on rare occasion, yes,

(01:05:38):
mostly no, it would be mostly based on five thousand
um so like you did. I remember one of your albums.
I bought Best of the Love and Spoonful that was
calculated like on five thousand records. That probably was Yeah,
I'm gonna give you one uh uh one exception. So
when um, Howard Kyle and Mark Voman got the rights

(01:05:59):
back on the Turtle Can. By the way, um Um,
they were from Westchester. They're three years older than me,
so I didn't really know them, but I was friendly
with um um some of the younger brothers in the Turtles,
Um and um. At a certain point I saw the

(01:06:20):
mothers of invention with uh Klin and Vollman. You said,
he are you kidding? Yes, uh Billy the Mountain. This
was Polly Pavilion that, you know, because that was a
live version. Was that recorded there? Just another band from
l Yes, so I love the show. I thought they

(01:06:41):
were great. And then I thought, oh, you know what,
let me call Frank's Apple's manager management office, Herb Cohen,
and I left a message for Howard Klin because I
thought it'd be you know, interesting, you know, to write
an article to transition from going from the Turtles to
the Mothers, from a m pop clean to you know,

(01:07:01):
talking about you know, mud sharks and you know groupies.
Um so yeah, I interviewed, uh Howard and great interview. Um.
I wrote it up for Rolling Stone and um Jan
Winner loved it, he wrote on my page stub he wrote,
like great story. Um. Later on I found out that

(01:07:24):
he'd actually had been a Turtles fan younger. So anyways,
so what I'm saying is there was some familiarity with me.
I would go see there, you know, flowing Eddie the knack.
Occasionally I would you know, write up an article in there.
So there was familiarity with me. They liked me, and
you know, I was, you know, loosely in a broad spectrum,
you know, part of their uh they're uh a Saturn ring. So, um,

(01:07:48):
they liked the picture this, they like how that turned out. Um,
we paid him on subsequent so then we uh licensed
um the first album you Ain't Me, Ain't Me Babe,
and they owned it when that did well, and that
was so then they said, hey, how would you like
to license our best of? So they had done a

(01:08:09):
double album that they had licensed to Sire Records, and
I don't know if it was a three year deal
or a five year deal, but that was kind of
come to fruition. So, um, I remember this because it
was a lot of money for us. We made a
deal for Turtle's greatest hits and their original albums and
it was for fifteen thousand dollars where she was outrageous,

(01:08:34):
and I remember Mark Vohman like comforting me, comforting me
and saying, you know what, you know, you're gonna come out.
You're gonna come out really good on this. Okay. No,
you know, because I remember when all this went out,
they didn't have any offers from majors. Why did they
go with you A I didn't know whether they did
or whether they didn't, but I paid them. You know,
it wasn't just the advance it was regular royalties, and

(01:08:56):
you know they liked so okay. So with Rhino, for
Richard and myself, it was like growing up with this music.
This is important to us. So when we reissued it,
it was let's put quality into it. Let's make it
sound better than it ever has been sounded. If it's possible,
let's track down rare photos, let's get um really good

(01:09:18):
liner notes. So I think they also appreciated that that
this was like quality stuff. Okay, but those were successful, correct, Um, yes,
what's well? First of all, um, the first album, that
Ain't Me Babe album actually did much better that I
would have thought. It's so much better than the others.

(01:09:38):
I think maybe it like did around ten thousand, which
is pretty good for for us, and then the others,
in varying degrees were um less than five thousand. But
the you know, greatest hits did great okay. So the
Turtles really put you on the map in terms of
the country at large. So what was the step after
the Turtles? Okay? Well, uh, Strategically, in our first two

(01:10:03):
years seventy seventy nine, we put out about nine albums
each and the first year nine albums or E N
or EPs each year, and the first year we probably
made money on the ninety thousand, and the second year
on the hundred and twenty seven thousand dollars, we lost

(01:10:23):
money because we put more money into our product. And
then it occurred to me, I thought, okay, we need
to put out more albums, thinking that if we're if
we can make money on most of them. So the
next two years we did eighteen albums apiece and that
you know, worked and problems we how much were reissued,

(01:10:46):
how much were acts? What's really hard to say. Um, um,
I don't know, maybe half or more reissues. And Okay
at that point, where the new artist making you any
money for the most part, no, And it was, like
I said, very dispiriting. It was the new Cats, the

(01:11:08):
pop the Naughty Sweeties. Um. A little bit later, Um
the Twisters who were like the Beatles of the South day. Uh,
they made money for us. But there's a Twister story. Mark.
I was looking for bandit produce. Mark Vollman recommended the Twisters,
Paul Wexler, Jerry's sign and I cut some stuff. They

(01:11:30):
ended up on compilation records, but um, somebody else did
um uh e p And because they had sexually big
following they had these new managers who were I don't
really need it to say much about them other than
they were they didn't really know what they were doing
and they wanted to get them a major label deal.

(01:11:51):
So when but because the Twisters liked me and everything
I've done for them, we made a deal to only
be able to sell the EP in cal FORNI. Alright,
so we put this out. They have a lot of
fans k Rocks playing in a you know, just a
little bit. Um. We end up our first charting record
on the Record World Chart. We're getting calls from all

(01:12:12):
of our distributors. Hey, what is this congratulations, Hey we
want this record, cancel it to you. It was like,
you know, Um. One of the things when I interviewed
Mickey Most when I went over to England. Um, he said,
when you have momentum as an artist, you go with
it because you never know when it's gonna end. And

(01:12:33):
that ended that day and there for the Twisters and
what came after the Twisters? Um you mean as far
as other products, Um, Well, like I said, I mentioned
those other artists. Um, for the most part, we still
kind of um here and there tried to, you know,
help out and do a new artist here or there.

(01:12:56):
But it was we diminished it and usually we lost money. Okay,
what year was the capital distribution distribution deal? Okay? Um,
that was too effect October Okay, So the question is
when did you as a company gay momentum? What was
the turning point for you? Okay, I'm gonna tell you

(01:13:17):
kind of what led up to that? Um we had
this new record. Uh, there was an artist are College
reup in San Diego found called the beat Farmers who
were kind of like UM the Blasters UM. We gave
them a budget. Steve Berlin produced it. He went over budget.
We gave him a budget of five thousand dollars. He
came in at six thousand. Anyway, they were going out

(01:13:41):
on tour with the Blasters UM in Colorado. They were
doing better than the Blasters UM our distributor. The problem
is sometimes these distributors we had to put them on
hold to try to get our money because so our
distributor in Colorado UM hadn't paid us in four months.

(01:14:02):
So one of the problems was how do you mean
you know when you have a series. At that point,
I remember if we had like eight distributors throughout the country.
But if you don't have a unified network, how do
you take advantage when something like this happened. So that
was kind of plan of the seed um and then
um step two was you know a lot of times

(01:14:24):
people in their record business executives, they take credit for things.
Of course, all right, so here's how the whole capital
thing happened. No, No, the question is before capital, Okay,
was it were you? It's seen from the outside you
were making money, definitely making money, okay, yeah, more reissues
and you know, I seemed like you were making significant money.

(01:14:44):
You had it was a real thing. Was that not
the case? It seemed to me that you went to
Capital because of those issues as opposed to boost your
you know, rescue you well, I think it was maybe
in the year or two prior to that where we
had to take out a loan for the first time.
And the reason wasn't that, you know, the books didn't
look good as because when they're stringing you out, you know,

(01:15:06):
three or four months, and you know, I was, you know,
not only um bothered by the fact that you know,
they were stringing us out. Okay, so you make the
deal with Capital does that turbo charge the company? First
of all, the good thing, yes, the good thing is
um it was. I think the deal was something like Capital,

(01:15:27):
we're always going to pay us no more, no more
than sixty days. But if they paid us in less
than thirty days, they could take two off of the joys.
I think I think that's what it was. Maybe maybe
it was less than sixty whatever it was, But the
point is every month we got a check, you could

(01:15:48):
plan on the check, you could build your business. So
that was so important. Then distribution wise, you know as
unified national distribution. So we were in a position to
sell a lot more records at that point too. Okay,
to what degree did your license capital? EMI? Product? Very
good question, Um. Capital were slow, but ultimately UM, they did.

(01:16:17):
And one of the significant things that they were kind
of reluctant, but they did. UM. I put together a
series of the best of the British Invasion because it
really it was a real passion of mine and still
is a passion of mine, and also relates to UH
the book that I published. It was published two years ago,
so UM, a lot of that was UH material that

(01:16:38):
Capital owned. UM. When you think about Billy J. Kramer
and Dakota's jarring the Pacemakers. By the way, obviously you know,
no Beatles from Capital. You know, they had a part
of the Hollies, and you know we had other licensing
deals in place, the Kings and the Yardbirds, um so um.

(01:16:59):
And it I'm leading to a point. So after our
three year deal, we were happy with Capital, they were
happy with us. We were exceeding projections. So we had
three stipulations when we renewed. One was we wanted to
get more catalog from them that they've been reluctant to

(01:17:19):
give us. Now, this wasn't premo stuff like the Beach Boys.
This is like the Raspberries or the Class of Four.
And in the contract it had these you know, I
don't know if it was like six or eight artists
that we were supposed to put out. So as we
were in along with the deal, um, we never got it.
They breached our agreement on three different levels, including us

(01:17:45):
giving the stuff because you know, their reissue little departments
that we want to put it out. And you know,
I just thought it was just so shortsighted because again
we were doing well, we were exceeding projection. Let me
give you an idea um Heart in their hey day
uh at Capital. Um, I can't remember if there were

(01:18:05):
still two or three million albums a cop, I don't know.
But anyway, we were making for Capital about what Heart
was making for them. Now, if we were hard, you
would be like, you know, playing so nice to us,
what we do for you guys, let's take you out
whatever it is. And here it's sort of like, you know,
the opposite. So that's why ultimately, uh, and kind of

(01:18:27):
through a boomerang effect, we ended up uh you know,
making distribution deal with somebody else in this case to Atlantic. Okay,
at what point did you sell some of the company
to Atlantic? Okay? Um, here's the Atlantic story again because
it's kind of interesting. Um, we were offered um to Atlantic.

(01:18:50):
This make sure we were offered to you'd come in
through the Warner Music group. Bob mcgatto. Now Bob mccatto
wasn't a music guy. Um. He was a speed striter
for New York Governor Hugh Carey, so he didn't you know,
we dealt with a lot of these people who inherently
didn't really have a feel or understanding or let alone
a lover or appreciation for all the great stuff we

(01:19:10):
were doing. He turned us down. Then at some point, um,
he was offered Fantasy was in play. Okay, if we
buy Fantasy Records, what do we do with it? Who
do we get to run it? Then the lawyer said, um, oh,
you know Rhino's looking for a deal. You know you
can get Ryano want you buy you know, Ryan, make
a deal with Rhino. So that's kind of how we

(01:19:31):
came into it. Now, Um, in order to make a deal,
you have to be affiliated with one of those major,
the three major labels. So Atlanta, headed by Doug Morris,
wasn't doing that well. Now was made better sense for
us to be aligned with Warner Brothers out here in
mo Auston because we were l a based. But there

(01:19:54):
was animosity between Mrgato and Mo Austin. So he went
to Doug Morris and he said, look, we will make
this deal. And Doug goes, look, you know, I don't
know you know anything about it. And so Marcato said
to Morris, look, if they lose money, will take it
off your books and onto our books. Don't worry about it.
So again, you know, it wasn't like anybody seeing this

(01:20:14):
glowing vision and m so um uh. You know that's
how we you know, had to look elsewhere from Okay,
at what point from but it was instantly successful. What
point did you sell them part of the business? Okay?
So um at a certain point. So basically it was

(01:20:35):
a joint venture um and at a certain point um uh,
in order for them to be a little bit more
cooperative on some of the other Atlantic stuff you know
that we didn't have, by the way, in our contract
we had Okay, these are the artists that are um okay,

(01:20:56):
so the joint venture. Here's the artist that we're going
to be in control with the Frank and you know,
the RAS goes a lot of these, but not Crosby, Stills,
Nash or you know, some of the more high profile ones.
So um at a certain point, um. You know. By
the way, we ended up having a really good relationship
with Doug and then he got fired and then they

(01:21:16):
brought it with Michael Fuchs, who you know, came from
HBO and who was this guy And then took a
little while, but then he beat He was a fast study.
At a certain point he was championing Rhino. We had
this big blowout meeting that he scheduled that Warner Brothers
with rust Thyrette saying, look, these guys are doing a
great job. They do much better than you. You know,
nobody buys a Warner Brothers record. People buy. He was

(01:21:37):
rust Thyrette was zeeing his heels and he wasn't giving
us the stuff we wanted. And then before that could
be resolved, like I know, two three weeks later, then
you know, Fuchs was fired. So then in order to
get stability the two film guys Terry Simuel and Bob Daily,
I was like, okay, let us take this over. We'll
stabilize it. Now. Again, these guys knew nothing about the

(01:21:59):
music business. So we had meetings with them. You know,
the relationship was fine, but according to their limited purview,
in order to um for us to get access to
Atlantic excuse me, pardon me, um Elektra and Warners, it

(01:22:19):
was like, we have to have a deal in place
where the other fifty percent, you know, the joint venture,
the other over a certain period becomes part of the
Warner Music Group. So again it's not something we would
have preferred. But again, um, you know, it wasn't a
bad deal on paper whatever, but we weren't thinking that
It was just more like, you know, we want access
to these great artists, you know, that are being neglected.

(01:22:42):
So that deal was made before Aims came on board. Yes, okay,
Now Doug got fired, he went over to universally started
a company called Hippo. How did you feel about that?
We were so piste off at that because obviously, if
you're gonna start a reissue label, you're not gonna call
it hippo, are you? And u? Uh we you know

(01:23:06):
we placed to call him now. I think we spoke
to Mel de Winter, who was you know something. We
had a great relationship with Mel and we we like
Doug when he was in Atlantic and um, but we
tried to appeal to him. He wouldn't do it. Um.
It was meaning like there was no reason why it
needed to be hippo unless you're kind of trading off
of like a Ryan Osterris looks like a hipponymous. Okay.

(01:23:30):
And then you also in the interim, you had a
success with Billy Vera. His album was on Alpha and
It's Stiffed and the company went out of business. You
licensed it and it was a hit. Now it was
purely because at this moment was used on TV or
did you facilitate that? Um? Okay, the Alpha record. Alpha
was a Japanese company and they wanted to establish um

(01:23:53):
Um in the US and in Los Angeles. So um
that was originally original release one. So um Billy and
the Beaters played around. Richard used to see him, and
um Billy said to uh, Richard, look, you know we
have a following, we have this record. Why don't you

(01:24:16):
put it out? And you know we'll have enough fans.
I'm sure you could sell at least you know, four
or five thousand copies, you know, to cover yourself. Uh.
And then he also mentioned about at this moment okay,
originally at this moment as a single, I think originally
I think he got up to maybe no higher than seventy.

(01:24:37):
So it's a stiff So yeah, they used it in
family ties UM. So again this is six. So Richard said, okay, yeah,
we'll do it, and he turned it over to UM
Gary Stewart, who was head of A and R, basically saying, okay,
there's the two albums, the studio album, a live album,
take the best stuff. We'll put it out. So that
came out um UM in the fall of eighty six

(01:25:03):
and unbeknownst to anybody, Family Ties used it in an episode.
It was kind of like, um, it was kind of
the love theme Michael J. Fox's character and the woman
he married who was on the show, and then they
played at the week following and NBC started getting lots

(01:25:24):
of these phone calls and that was really the whole
reason why it became the success. And initially it was
just only worked in house and in fact, um in January,
I was at Medem, um, you know, representing Rhino and

(01:25:44):
Nyken deals and um like, it went to number one
while I was in medem and sort of like, when's
the when's the last time? If if there was ever
a time when somebody was at Medem with the number
one record and of the deals I made uh with
this British company called Fanfare, and the and R guy

(01:26:06):
who loved it was Simon cow Oh really okay, But
famously we talked that they gave you a gold record
and you told me you were short five thousand or
fifty thousand, and you thought about sending the gold record back,
saying it really didn't reach that pinnacle. Okay, Here's which

(01:26:26):
I referred to before the kind of the prankster aspect
about it because you know, as we know, you know,
gold record, Really what does it mean? There is the
infamous case about uh, the Johnny Carson album on Casablanca,
like I was, it was certified platinum and returned double platinum,
you know, things like that. So this was like a
joke thing. So, um, the album sold over five hundred thousand,

(01:26:53):
We got it certified as a gold record. We made
we gave a gold record to every employee. But you know,
as we know in the business, you know, returns months later.
You know, we were I don't know if we were
you know, under by you know, twenty five thousand or whatever.
It was. So as a joke, Um, I wrote a

(01:27:13):
letter to the R I A basically saying, oh, yeah,
you know, we've got a certified goal, but you know
we should you know, you know, do we need to
send you back the gold records? You know, total joke,
right because you have to have you know, nobody would
ever do because you know, such a vanity thing. Hey,
I go to old record regardless of what it sold.
So again the prankster aspect, and I didn't hear anything.

(01:27:34):
After like three weeks, I called the R A and
they said, oh no, you don't have to send back.
We only certify on what was shipped. So anyway, at
at a certain point when we moved to a new location,
I had a little mini Rhino museum, which again kind
of was to you know, satirize other aspects of museums

(01:27:55):
that take themselves so seriously. And I had the Gold
Record in there, and also a be of my letter
to the R. I A A, Okay, what are you
most proud of that you did at Rhino Records. Well,
I guess you're talking about organization or product. Well you
can answer both ways. Well, I mean it was a
lot that I was proud of. Obviously, we need to

(01:28:17):
have a successful, profitable company in order to make everything
else work. But we were very humane as a company.
I feel really good about that. We treat our employees
really well. Um during the Clinton administration, Robert Reich, Secretary
of Labor, presented us with the Corporate Citizenship Award, which
is the only one awarded to entertainment company. So when

(01:28:41):
Richard and I started out, We've never been to business school,
we didn't know anything. We would read books and Tom
Peters in search of excellence. We got a lot of
things from him in that book, and one of the
things is treat your employees as an asset. And that
really meant a lot to us. And it's kind of
surprising to us through of the years even seeing uh,

(01:29:01):
you know, the other Warner labels or the Warner Music
Group and Action. You know, that was kind of like
that wasn't embraced so um that obviously um at the time.
The fact that the industry kicked in gear and focused
more on quality reissues owes everything to us, because prior

(01:29:23):
to that, it was more like, you know, let's see
if we could squeeze out a few more bucks from
these old hits, and let's just uh, you know, not
spend Let's spend the least amount of money possible. So
we you know, really upgrading all that. And then also,
more importantly than anything, whether it's you know, the books
I've written or what we were doing at Rhino, the
music is always the most important thing. And all you know,

(01:29:44):
with your newsletter, even the original news letter, the music
is the most important thing. It could transform you. And
to us, it was always to make a lot of
this stuff available, uh, and in some cases, if it
hadn't been available, um before and to make it, you know,
uh sound good for either people who never experienced it

(01:30:06):
initially or were vaguely familiar with it, or people who
needed to be reminded that you really liked this. Here
it is and you're gonna enjoy listening to this. Okay,
So your tenure ends at Rano approximately fifteen years ago.
At this point in time, are you fine with that?
Or you think there was something you wanted to do

(01:30:27):
or still want to do before you reach the end? Well? Um,
the main problem when I left Rhino wasn't leading Rhino
was more like how it handled how it was handled,
but not to get into that. Um. So for the
most part, given limitations, I had basically done everything I

(01:30:48):
felt that I could do, you know, given the constraints.
Because I uh produced a few films at that point,
uh and because I was working on a and you
Monkey's TV show with Simon Fuller. There was the uh
My Dinner with Jimmy movie, the low budget Howard Kaylin
movie that I we were in post production on, so

(01:31:08):
I was kind of involved in that. But I was
really thinking, um feature film because and ideally what I
wanted to do, which is more what we've experienced this year.
But I just think if you're in a movie theater
and you're hearing really great rock music over these loud speakers,
it's just a total unique experience. And I thought, here's

(01:31:29):
a way to not only expose people to cattle to
the great music, but to sell soundtracks. So that's what
ideally wanted to do, but that really didn't happen for me. Well, ultimately,
you helped preserve the history of rock and roll, as
you said, with quality. So we all owe a debt
to Harold. Thanks so much for being here and tell

(01:31:51):
your story. Thanks. I enjoying it.

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Host

Bob Lefsetz

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Harold Bronson