Hayes Carll

Hayes Carll is an award-winning singer-songwriter from Texas. We discuss how he performed virtually during the pandemic, as well as what it's like to be a touring musician singing his truth today and the tension between needing to have a presence online yet still focus on the work. Hayes also describes what it's like to pursue songwriting excellence as opposed to fame. This is the other side of the music industry, someone who has a presence in the landscape yet has to work for a living, who is known but is not famous enough to survive on recording income and sponsorships. Hayes is authentic, you'll enjoy listening to him.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sense Podcast.
My guest today songweather musician Hey. He's called Hey. He's
good to have you on the podcast. Hey, Bob, it's
great to be here. So to what degree has COVID
nine team affected your career? Touring and Saturday Boy? Way
more than I could have imagined. I mean it initially,

(00:29):
it ended it. You know, I was I was in Seattle,
just about to start a tour and we did one
show at half capacity and and we just canceled it
and flew home. And UM, I was fortunate to be
had I'd been on the road for a couple of months,
so I was in decent shape financially and um, and

(00:52):
you know, nobody knew how long this was gonna go on.
So we thought we were okay and just try to
do some fundraising and help people out. UM. But then
as it continued, you know, it started to hit me.
The way I make my living, or had made my
living for the most part for twenty years, was gone,
and we didn't know when it was gonna come back.
So we started doing a lot of people did and

(01:15):
doing live streams. I had done that years before on Facebook.
I used to do a showdown in Austin at a
place called the Saxon Pub and I would we would
stream it on Facebook. We just never thought to monetize it.
I thought, how cool is this The people in Ireland
or Ireland are watching my show, or people in Idaho

(01:37):
or wherever. I was reaching all these people, and that
was significant to me. And I knew there was something there,
but I just never thought to put a tip jar up.
And um so when the pandemic came, I had some
experience with that and and and so now with the
ability to for people to support you, um we were

(01:57):
up and running. And uh so I started doing them
and and uh I was afraid that, you know, every week,
I just thought this isn't sustainable because it was people
were being very generous and and but at a certain point,
I thought the bottom was gonna fall out. So I
started working two. Um. I made it a priority to

(02:23):
show my appreciation and decided that I wanted my show
and then supporting my show to be the last thing
that they took out of the budget, you know, the
sort of discretionary income. So my wife's a musician as well,
and she was doing shows and she was sending postcards
to people, um who had supported her, and so I

(02:43):
started doing the same. And then I started making a
new postcard every week. And then I started um uh
adding set lists and and um and doing two three
four hour shows, and I started taking requests and asking
people to tell me stories about their life and what
was going on or about my music. And over a

(03:06):
period of about a year and a half, I did
uh sixty five shows or something and built up a
community um and uh it felt like a family. I
just got much closer to my audience in a way
that than I ever had before. And that was really

(03:27):
uh significant for me, not just emotionally, uh not just
financially during that time to keep us alive, but but
and like everybody else, we were isolated and kind of
quarantined and and too even if I couldn't see people,
to know, there was five thousand people every Tuesday at
six pm tuning in and I was sending on postcards

(03:51):
and they were sending me request and there was there
was a relationship there in a connection and it was
really incredible and kind of made me rethink my my career,
which had always just been about touring, touring, touring, grinding
on the road, and uh so, um it gave me
a really good chance to reset and an opportunity to

(04:12):
connect with my fans and kind of re prioritized and
figure out what was important to me. Okay, let's start
with the actual live stream. The first time you did it,
How did you make people aware that you were doing it? Well,
I did a couple of things that prepared me for
the pandemic. I had a Patreon page going. This is
probably five years ago, and I had I had sort

(04:37):
of hit a a point in life where I was
struggling creatively and and it had been four or five
years in between records, and so I got Patreon really
just to have an outlet for music because I was
starting to feel pressure on myself too. Um, my creative
flow was blocked and and so I just wanted a way,

(04:59):
a a pressure way to release music and songs that
I thought were cool and working producers that I thought
were interesting. Um, that didn't affect my career in my life,
And so I started Patreon and then I started doing
the live stream, and I combined the two. Well, well, well,
let's stay with Patreon then, since you started there. Yeah,
so when you first started Patreon. How did you drive

(05:21):
people to Patreon? Just social media? Basically, I I just
went on. I made the banners of all my pages,
you know, an image, and only most people didn't know
what it was at the time. I didn't know what
it was. My my manager at the time, uh, Mike Crowley.
I brought this idea to me, and um, it seemed interesting,

(05:43):
so we we set it up and I just tried
to figure out what I was gonna do, which was okay.
We got a lot of things going on here. You
say Mike Crowley was your manager, which would imply he's
not your manager anymore. Correct. What happened there? We just
we had a really good run, um uh for close
to fifteen years, and you know, I just reached a

(06:04):
time where it was it was time for us to
move on, and so we did. We're still friends and
uh no ill will of any kind. Just uh. I
have a lot of gratitude for him. And do you
have a manager now? I do? I do? UM, I
had I got a second manager after Mike, and then
um we split up during the pandemic and uh now

(06:27):
I work with Holly Lohman with Red Light Management. How
did you get hooked up there. Uh, she works with
some people I know, and UM, a lot of folks,
my my wife, my attorney, UM, and just a lot
of people in the business who knew I was looking
and needed help. UM recommended her. Her name just kept

(06:49):
coming up. So I I just cold called her and said, uh,
you know, let's meet for lunch and and talk it over.
And so we we hit it off and she had
room for me, and and so we've been at it
for uh, you know, almost a year now. Okay, Now,
red Light is a unique business model. I won't go
into all the depth at this point in time, but

(07:11):
they're managers to have individual acts, but they all work together.
Do you find any benefit having your manager part of
a larger organization in this case red Light. Yeah. Yeah.
I mean I think there's still things I'm waiting to see,
you know, how much they pay off. But I know
that she can see what's happening with with a lot

(07:34):
of other acts, and she's in close contact with a
lot of other managers. UM. And and I think some
things as basic as they send out a memo saying
you know this, these people are looking for a song
for a commercial, or here's a here's an opening opportunity
or you know supports lot or that might be good
or um. So it's it's similar to you know, if

(07:54):
you're with a booking agency, some things are going to
come across the table that may not have been aimed
at you, but but you and benefit from them. So
you made people aware of Patreon. On social media? What
platforms are you on? Which ones work? And how active
are you? I am on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, and
I guess I'm on Twitch, although I don't know how

(08:17):
I'm smile. But if you're on Twitch, begs a question
are you a gamer? And I'm not? No, okay, but
you're on Twitch, so yeah, go into those three platforms
and how you're using, etcetera. I have gone back and
forth over the years from being very involved to uh

(08:37):
not touching them from a month and it's it's it's
a struggle. I think a lot of musicians and a
lot of people period, but I seem to have this
conversation all the time with folks. Uh, it's this love
hate relationship like where we know it's essential or we
feel like it's essential. We feel like we're missing out
if we're not posting everything. We do all the time

(08:58):
and building this rapport and forming people I don't even know.
I struggle with how essential it really is. Um. But
but most of the time I think it's incredibly important
and something that I need to do. But I also
don't like doing it and I'm really uncomfortable doing it.
Um it's all my insecurities come out with it. Here's

(09:21):
here's what I'm thinking. Do you like me? Here's the
thing I'm gonna do. Are you gonna respond to it?
And and then I'm looking at other people's reactions and
it's hard not to compare and say, well this this
person has way more followers, or this person is funnier
than I am, and I find that it can lead
to uh kind of unhealthy um thing for me. And

(09:45):
and um it's also time consuming. So um I my
my wife the last couple of months has been helping
me out um with it, and it's been a godsend
because I now I just pick it up if I
want to look at the new is or something. But
I don't have to. It's a full time job, you know.
It's it's it's I want to be writing songs, you know,

(10:10):
are living life. So you mentioned your insecurities said, those
may feed your creativity, but what are your insecurity since
you mentioned them, well, my insecurities point, um, yeah, I've
got them all. It's uh, it's a constant work. I
mean insecurities about my my talents, my my my voice,

(10:35):
my looks, my physique, my career, my um, you know,
the job as a parent. Um Uh, there's there's a
lot of a lot of self doubt and uncertainty and
healthy amount is healthy. Um. But well, I guess the
question would be, you know, we live in an era

(10:56):
where people boast, and especially on social media institum am
being the prime example of that. To what degree does
that self confidence and people do you think help them
or hurt them? Musicians? I'm speaking of the self confidence
people we you know, we all know we forget the
raw level who someone really is in terms of evidencing

(11:19):
themselves in public. A lot of people demonstrate an incredible
self confidence. And if you have insecurities, you know, I
find this myself. I have insecurities and then all these
people got they're all telling me I have the great
and they're beating me down. And then every once while,
I can you know detach and said, well, I've met
a lot of people. This has got more to do
with that person than me, and it's just bluster. But

(11:41):
should I evidence more self confidence? So to become a
public figure and musician, that requires a certain amount of
belief in yourself and self confidence. So did you feel that, Hey, man,
I've got something to deliver, I'm entitled or is it?
Have you been tentative along? I've been pretty tentative. I mean,

(12:02):
there there are times, just like in life with my
my personality in real life, there are times where I'm
incredibly confident and um, and there are times where I'm crippling, crippling,
lee insecure, and there's times where I have a pretty
good balance. Um. And you know that's probably been reflected
in my social media. UM. I just I find the

(12:23):
I am expected to be or I feel like I'm
expected to be confident or I need to be confident
to put stuff out there, and that feels like a
disconnect sometimes because I want to. Um, I work really
hard at being connected with myself and not getting disconnected,
and there feels like a major disconnect sometimes when I say, hey,

(12:43):
here's this great thing going on, and I may not
be in a great place that day. It's not reflective
of my actual life. It's reflective of one part of
my career or or one moment in my life. And
and so that's a that's just a thing that I've
battle with is is uh. It does not feel seamless
like here, here's where I am in life, and then
here's why I'm on social media. Um. That that bothers me. That, Um,

(13:09):
I feel like I have to to put out some
sort of something. I don't know, maybe I take it
all too seriously, but it's this is great. No, you're
you're being honest like you are in your music. And
that's why it resonates, which begs the question using that
term again, what works on social media? What gets a reaction? Well,
you know, I find that when I am honest, that

(13:29):
tends to work when I tell uh some part of
my story in a real way, because I can post, hey,
I here's something cool I did and crickets and I
can say here's a struggle I had, and I get
a response. And so that's been informative to me. Doesn't
make it necessarily easier to put that out there, but
I have I have learned that I think people want

(13:51):
connection and and that you know, asked about the pandemic
that that was. That was my big takeaway was people
wanted connection, They wanted something authentic and and I think
I spent many years feeling like I needed to be
something that I wasn't because there I needed to be
a front man, I needed to be a rock singer,
I needed to be a drunk and whatever. And and

(14:15):
it's really hard to just be what you are, whatever
it is in that moment, to be vulnerable and and
when you're in the public eye. And so yeah, that's
that's I guess the struggle. Okay, so which of these
platforms you mentioned Twitter? You mentioned Facebook and Instagram for
your audience, which one has the largest audience in terms
of when you actually say something as opposed to the

(14:36):
number of followers, It says probably Facebook still um, with
Instagram being second and Twitter as a distant third for me. Okay,
so let's go back. You decide to go on Patreon.
There's a way to spur your creativity. You put out
the message. Two things, one how many people actually bite
and the nature of Patreon is their different tiers. What

(14:58):
were the different tiers you established? I think my initial
so I've had two sort of runs with Patreon, and
the first time I did it for a couple of
years and I had three four folks on there, and
my tears went from a dollar to a hundred dollars
And essentially I just told them you're going to get

(15:21):
a song a month and then here's a few extra things.
I wasn't all that creative with it, but I just
tried to figure out some way to make it worth
their while financially. But the money. I wasn't looking at
it to live off the money. I was looking at
it to get money to pay producers so that I
could go. I worked. My first one was with John
Levinthal and then I went work to Charlie Sexton or

(15:42):
just different people um um uh that I just really
wanted to play music with. And and so that's what
it was. I wasn't really profiting off of it. It
was just giving me the opportunity to to pay people
that I wanted to work with. Okay, so if someone
signed up for a hundred dollars, what they get, you know,
I don't even remember what I was offering back then.

(16:04):
I'll just skip real quick to where it is now. Well, well,
let's let's hold that for a second. Okay, So you start,
you're doing it for creative purposes. People are paying monthly
to what degree? And I think it's inherent. You're seeing
whether the numbers are staying steady, going up, going down?
And to what degree did you feel you had to
service people to a degree in order to make sure

(16:25):
they stayed on? Yeah? I, Uh, the numbers were pretty
consistent as long as I was consistent. But then I
stopped being consistent, and then people express frustration and say,
you know, what are we paying for? You're not really delivering.
And so I felt like I was taking my best
fans and and rather than making them closer to me,

(16:47):
that I was making them regret trusting me. And I
didn't like that. So, and I had just made a
new record using a lot of the songs, you know,
different recordings, but a lot of the songs that I
had written and recorded initially on Patreon um and so
I decided to shut it down and so I could
pay attention and focus on the on the record, and uh,

(17:09):
that's what so I gave it. It was about two
years that I went with it, and it was it
was wonderful to get to make music. But then it
felt like a job, started to feel like a full
time job, and I was I had a pretty busy
life at that point. Decided to put it away for
a minute, but you restarted it. What was the motivation
of restarting? What's different or the same about it now? Yeah,

(17:30):
So that was another another result of the pandemic UM
and I was fortunate that even though I had shut
it down, I still had I don't know, three hundred
or so of my the followers were still there. And
so I just put it back out and said, Okay,
I'm gonna start charging uh per month again, and I
reworked the tears and UM and then I got like

(17:52):
around seven hundred patrons, and I think people were feeling,
you know, like they wanted to help out. They knew
musicians were in a tight spot. So so I got
more significantly more than I had the first time around,
and I expanded it all the way up to a
thousand dollar level UM. And so you'd asked, what the
what you get? I think at like a five dollar level,

(18:15):
I send you a signed set list from a show
of your choice, or UM, you can get a v
I P meet and greet at a show. Um, at
the hundred dollar level, I'll do a cameo, I'll sing
you know, a personalized song for you or something, all
the way up to a thousand, which after a year,
i'll do a I'll do a concert at your house

(18:37):
like a you know, acoustic show or um, I'll send
people guitars and signed lyrics and and uh, all my
vinyl and basically anything I can think of. I just
try and make it worth people's while to to support me.
So if you've done any live shows, of course, the
pandemic has continued, and how many people will pay a

(18:58):
thousand dollars on long Well, I currently have two people
who who do that, and UM, I'm very grateful for them.
So if you've done the live shows yet, yeah, I
did one. I did one of them. What was that experience? Like?
I was cool? It's um Uh, it's just a very
generous guy who, um, who loves music and is financially

(19:21):
in a position to to support stuff that he loves.
So it's um, he supports me through through Patreon and
then every single live stream I would do, he would
support me through that and and so uh and you
know sometimes it's uh, I spent a long time kind
of being too close to my fans and then sometimes
you know, keep really keeping a distance because it it

(19:43):
didn't feel um, I was just trying to establish some boundaries. Um.
And but Patreon has has been good for me and
that um uh. You know, the people that are on
there or in my experience of been solid folks who
just want to support something that they appreciate, and so

(20:05):
I keep the guidelines. There. You have the two people
paying a thousand dollars. You know, you mentioned your insecurities past.
You know, if you put up a date and you
go to a club that's an established business, you play,
you get paid, assuming people come. When someone sends you
a thousand dollars a month, do you have any guilt?
But you just say, this is a business. Obviously they
can afford it, and I'm giving something back. It's transactions. Yeah,

(20:28):
If I have any guilt, it's maybe maybe sometimes I
just feel like I'm not doing enough, But I also
have to realize that I do. I have a lot
going on in my life and uh, and if they're
not happy, they can, you know, they can let me know,
and I try to. I try to reach out and
stay in contact and just make sure folks are doing

(20:48):
doing well. Um, I lucked out and I found a
woman to help me out with this stuff. Before I
had a manager. Um finding my last manager and and
help me keep it all together. They're organized, Otherwise I'd
be lost, um fulfilling all this stuff. So UM, No,
I don't feel guilty. It's ah. Um. I do a thing,

(21:09):
they appreciate it and and they support me, and I
appreciate them for that. So the people, let's you know,
the steady three people on Patreon, that's the result of
them being so close to you online and limited in

(21:30):
numbers supposed to a big like a big act. Do
you actually know them and interact with them? Uh? Some
of them? I mean, and I know a few of
them just because they're friends, are supported and then I
know a few of them, Um, through meet and greets
and stuff. They'll come to the show and you start
to recognize names. You know, there's some people who are active.

(21:51):
There's a lot of people who sign up and I
think don't ever read my emails because they just want
to support me. They don't actually want to listen to
everything I have to say. Um. And I know that
to be true because I support a lot of people
on Patreon and and I. You know, there's a certain
percentage that I just delete because I don't have the
time to to go through it all. But um, um,

(22:12):
and that's fine. I appreciate them just wanting to support it. Okay,
So how many people do you support on Patreon? I
currently have six people that I, uh support and with
those big names that the average person recognizes or they're
more personal friends. Yeah, I'm not sure who. I mean,
what one is Amanda Palmer, who's the biggest act on there,
and and I And that's more educational for me, um,

(22:35):
just trying to study, you know, how she got to
where she's at and and um, and how she engages
with her audience, which is I don't know how many
thousands of people, but it's it's pretty impressive. Uh. And
then the other ones Joe Pug who's a great songwriter
and has a great podcast called The Working Songwriter, Will

(22:55):
kimbro It's a great fantastic musician, guitar player places and
the Harris and Binding crowd a bunch of people. Um.
And then Travis Lynnville who is also in my band
sometimes but he's a fantastic singer songwriter and um so
maybe not a lot of household names, but if you're
in the music business, names folks might know. Okay, So

(23:15):
let's go to the live show. So you start these
live shows, You've done sixty during the pandemic. Let's start
with the beginning, because I'm sure there's an arc to
you know, you put the word out. How many people
show up and they're free I assume correct, But you're
encouraged to tip. So how do you sell the tips?

(23:36):
Into what degree does that work? You generate tips? At first,
I didn't try and sell it at all. I just
put it up there and people were again, everybody just
really wanted to help out, and that was amazing and overwhelming.
Really just it felt like all of the work that
I had done in the past twenty years to try

(23:58):
and be you know, to not only make the art
and do a good job, but but just try and
be decent and and somewhat connected with my fans. Uh
it felt like it was I was, you know, reaping
the rewards of that and and that harvest. Um uh

(24:20):
So initially people just gave very generously and um but
again I just thought the bottom was gonna gonna fall
out at some point, So, UM, I started finding ways
to encourage folks. Um, it's like I said, the postcard
I would I would, just to be clear, that's virtual
or physical postcards. These are physical postcards. So every week

(24:42):
I would design a postcard through Vista print, print off
two fifty or five hundred of them, um, and it
would be just you know, my wife would take a
picture of me in the living room, right, take a
picture of my dog, or or just just some of
them were funny something, you know, someones Matthew McConaughey's body
with my face on it. Um, you know, just whatever

(25:04):
I could do to um to change it up. And
and so I'll give that out. And then I how
did you get everybody's addressed? And who actually addressed the envelopes?
Was at all computerized? No? It was, Um, I got
the addresses on PayPal. If you tip using PayPal, your
are address automatically shows up and on Venmo. I just

(25:27):
I made a point of letting people know if you
use Vinmo and you want a postcard, type your address
in the comments and I'm after you tip. So, just
just to be very clear, if someone were to tip
you via PayPal, you have instant access to their address. Yeah, okay,
so you have all those addressed. Now you're telling me
about addressing the postcard. Yeah, so then I would I

(25:49):
would my show the last two hours, but it would
take all week because I would I would, you know,
find a postcard, do the show, get it all set up,
and uh and again this is on my laptop or
my iPad. It's not high quality tech at this point.
And uh. Then I would go through and and address everyone,

(26:10):
and I would try and write them. You know, I
look back now, and it was like I was. I
was trying really hard to let him know I cared.
So I would write a paragraph of thank you, thank you,
but it took it would take weeks and and and
there were times uhum where there's a lot going on
and would back up. So, um, I told you that
I um uh found this uh woman, there's a there's

(26:35):
a manager here in town. I'm Tracy Thomas um. And
Tracy had hired a woman to work for right as
the pandemic hit, and so she moved here and all
of a sudden didn't have work much work to do,
and so Tracy let me hire let's let's just go
back where is here. Where are you now? I'm sorry, Nashville.
I'm in Nashville, Tennessee. Yeah, so she hired this person

(26:58):
and uh so then let me um higher as well.
And so then things really got a lot better because
because um she would address all the stuff and and
moderate the shows and let people know what was what Okay,
So generally speaking, how many people would come to a show,
and how much money could you make in tips my

(27:21):
first show, there's probably people, maybe two thousand. It was.
It was it started off really well, and I was
probably averaging a show something like that. Um. And then
I started doing the postcards and then uh, and that

(27:41):
went on for a while, and I think I've maybe
got as high as for grand or something, um, which
was incredible. I mean against sitting here at my computer
and I was having dinner at my own table by
eight pm, uh, you know, and and just watching money
come in. UM. And so the thing that really made

(28:04):
a shift was or give it a boost was I
started including the set list. I would hand draw a
set list and print copies off and sign it and
I said, if you, if you contribute thirty dollars and more,
I will I'll send you this as well. And then
so then people started contributing in greater amounts and um

(28:25):
uh and then I do lyrics each week I do lyrics.
So I started trying to get a package of nice
things to make it worth your while and uh and
it just increased and grew, and we gave a lot
of money a charity. Um uh. So every week we
would connect with the charity. My son's is a magician,
among other things, and he started sending them videos of

(28:46):
himself doing magic, and that became part of the show.
My wife would comes thing with us, um um, the
dogs would be here, and it just became very personal.
And all these people felt like they were in our
house and they knew my family and they knew what
I uh did. And then, like I said, I started
taking requests and and just people would come and tell

(29:07):
me their stories of loss or of struggle or of
joy or how they met at my show and got
married or how their father loved me. And it passed
away and and it just was it felt like this
place for people to come and connect. And the more
that happens, the money went up. And um, I mean

(29:31):
by the end, if I went back and average that
it probably came out to four or five grand the
show on average. Wow, that's great. And since you did
sixty five, did you consistently get the same number of viewers? No?
It uh, it fluctuated a bit, um and sometime around
after I've been at it about a year, things were
starting to drop off, and finally I put it away

(29:54):
for a while because I didn't want to be the
last one at the party. It was it was uh,
consistently around seven or eight hundred, and then it got
it was like five hundred, six hundred, and then by
the end it was starting to get to round three
or four hundred and and um, which is still incredible,
But live work was starting to come back as well,
and so I thought, um, it might be time to

(30:15):
get out there and start tourning in. But I see
you did one with your wife on Valentine's today. Yeah,
what was the motivation there? Into what degreer? Are you
still doing these live streams? I've done two this year.
I did one on my birthday. Um. I got COVID
on New Year's Day and I was supposed to go
to Colorado for a festival and I couldn't, so I, um,

(30:36):
I just thought I'll celebrate here at my house and
that ended up being my best one ever. So I
got paid more for that than I would have to
fly to Colorado and do the festival. So it's it's
been a real eye opening, kind of game changing thing.
And the Valentine's Day one, Um, we just hadn't done
a show in a while, and we we do a

(30:56):
lot of songs together and and and I've got a
lot of love songs and and uh, and we have
fun doing it. So we we just thought why not.
We're here. I'm not working much right now on the road. Okay,
So you said when we started to discuss all this
that having had this experience, your eyes were opened and
you've reevaluated a little bit going forward. So do you

(31:17):
think you'll just go back into your ole routine primarily
working on the road, or will be different now? Well,
I'm trying, like a lot of people, I think, to
figure out what lesson I've learned here and then to
apply it and not just fall back into what I
was doing, because what I was doing wasn't ultimately fulfilling me. Um,

(31:39):
And so I'm trying to find a balance, Like I
still enjoy performing for people, and and sometimes I enjoy
the travel and and um uh, but the grind of it,
that being away from home. You know, I have a
home I like, and and and um I live in
a town and I enjoy and and uh uh. It's

(32:00):
it's hard. It's harder and harder as I get older
to to just go out there and you know, stay
at the holiday and express with a bunch of guys,
no matter how much I like them. And so I'm
just trying to find a balance. And and that's that's
a bunch of things. That's maybe a little less touring,
but but I still enjoy getting out there, but mixing
in live streams, making songwriting and publishing and recording a

(32:22):
bigger part of my income and and work well work
and then hopefully income. Um And I'm just more interested
in in the working on my craft and being an
artist than I am being a road dog. And um
that that feels like a more balanced life for me
right now. And that's what I'm looking for. Okay. Prior

(32:44):
to the pandemic, how many days a year were you doing? Well?
My early days, I I would do over two hundred annually. Um.
And in the last five years, it was you know,
it was down to probably a hundred or so. Okay,
let's go back to the beginning. Where did you grow up?
I was born in Houston, Texas in nineteen seventy six,
and I grew up about twenty miles north in a

(33:08):
suburb planning community called the Woodlands, Texas. And what was
that like being in that planning community. Well, when I
moved there, there was twelve people. I think now there's
a hundred and twenty thousand, So it was it was
just a pine forest at first. And he literally watched
it get built out and the neighborhoods get built out,
and the schools get bigger, and it was great in
a lot of ways. Um, but it was also, you know,

(33:31):
mostly white, conservative spot. And and you know, there was
there was a lot of golf courses in golf course crossings.
And as a teenager, I mean, like a lot of people,
you feel sort of constricted by your hometown. And and
I was into Carolac and Dylan and Willie Nelson and
and and so I was like, I don't know where

(33:54):
those guys live, but it's it's clearly not here. So
I had a really strong desire to to go find
that out. And so I spent a lot of my
years just really excited or anxious to to to go
travel and and uh get a little more life experience. Okay,
So what did your parents do for a living? My

(34:16):
parents were both attorneys. And how many kids in the family. Uh,
there's two. I'm the oldest. I have a brother's nine
years younger than I am, who's also an attorney. And
how good were you in school? And were you popular
not popular? What kind of kids were you? I was
somebody who wanted to be popular and wasn't, which is
being unpopular spine if you're okay with it, and I wasn't.

(34:39):
I struggled. Uh. Um, so I guess I was on
the cusp. I I played sports, not not great, but
enough to to be around on the team for as
long as I could. Um. Uh. I didn't date until
my senior year in high school. And I got my
first kiss when I was eighteen. Um and UM, I

(35:04):
don't know. Just struggled to find my identity and who
I was. UM. And I got into theater, which became
a really important thing for me that that opened me
up to a lot of different Uh. You know, I
went from being in a locker room with fifty guys
talking about a certain same thing to being in a
room with with a much more diverse and uh interesting

(35:28):
to me crowd. And how well did you do in school?
I started off okay, I barely, I barely got out
and I greet I went to college and graduated last
in my class in college. So I ended up being
about as bad as well. Let's go a little bit slower.
So you're in school, when do you get infected by music?
And when do you pick up an instrument? And to

(35:49):
what degree your parents push you or to what degree
is that just spontaneous generation from your friends? Yeah? I
know my parents didn't push me at all. Um and uh,
I I just grew up listening to country music. I
knew that was Some of my earliest memories are listening
to the Blue Eyes Crying in the rain in the
back seat of the car. And and um, so I

(36:10):
loved country, I loved fifties rock and roll, sixties rock
and roll, and a real I had a couple of
moments that I absolutely remember that were life changing for me. Uh.
One was we would we would occasionally attend the Unitarian Church.
My parents weren't big churchgoers, but we would occasionally go

(36:33):
to the Interian church, and they weren't known for their choir. Uh,
So rather than have a choir, they would have acts
come by and one day it would be somebody reading
Dante's Inferno. And one day it was a folk trio
and they came in and sang Dylan songs. And I
was fourteen and they sang A hard rain is Gonna

(36:53):
fall blowing in the wind. And I went home that
day and I told my parents don't wanted guitar. Um.
You know, like probably thousands of other people who discovered Dylan,
and uh, because it was I knew I loved music,
but I didn't know that something about that, the power.
It just opened me up to the power of song.

(37:17):
Um and changed my life. So we're the type of
person playing in your bedroom or seeking other out, other
people out to play. Did you play live when you
were in high school? What was going on there? Yeah?
I did not play live when I was in high school. Um.
I played in my bedroom mostly, and then you know,

(37:37):
with my friends around at parties and stuff. You know,
the one thing I had going I couldn't really sing.
I didn't think, and I barely new guitar. But I
could remember all the lyrics to all the songs. And
there are there are all these guys who could play
Stairway to Heaven our love song on the guitar, but
that's all they could do, and nobody, you know, at
a party, people want to be a part of the

(38:00):
don't want just sit there and watch you play the
same guitar nerds stuff over and over. So that was
my secret weapon was I can see you every country
song that you want to hear, and so that's kind
of what I did. Um, but it was just it
was just for fun of people's houses or you know,
sitting around drinking beer. Okay, so you talked about where

(38:21):
you grew up being conservative, but if your parents were
going to the Unitarian Church, I don't think there's a
conservative goes to the Unitarian. So that would seem to
indicate that your parents themselves were liberal. Yeah, yeah, that's
that's safe to say. Okay, So you graduate from high
school and you go to college, where and what your experience?
What do you do before you graduate? Last I went

(38:41):
to college, I was looking for a small liberal arts school,
uh that didn't have a Greek then. Um, that was
that was my criteria and I ended up going to
Hendricks College in Conway, Arkansas. UM claim to fame being
that Roger wenton, Bill's brother went there for a year,

(39:02):
and Mary Steam Virgin went there for a year. Um
both of them left for different reasons. Uh and um uh.
So I went there. I didn't know, you know, it
was just sort of expected, you're gonna go to college.
Just just one stop for a second. Yeah, he's is
your middle name? We always haze. When you started to

(39:22):
play music, you were Haz. Yeah, No, I was. My
name is Joshua Hayes Carl. And in high school I
was josh And I never liked that name and I
never liked who I was in a way are Every
year I would come back to school saying, this is
the year that I'm gonna be cool and I'm gonna

(39:43):
I'm I'm gonna be different somehow. And then I realized
is you can't reset these people who have known you
in their whole lives. And so that never worked out
like I hoped it would. And then with college, I
had this opportunity to to really reset, and so I went.
I told people my name was Hayes. Um, my dad's

(40:06):
Lloyd Hayes Carl the third, so it's a family name
and I didn't feel like that big of a a thing, um,
and I I just took that chance to start fresh.
So how many people were going to the college, and
what was your experience in college? And it was hundred folks,
it was. It was a very small liberal arts school,

(40:28):
and um, my experience was that I was a terrible
student who didn't know how to manage this time, and
it made college not great. There was I remember my
first day there was this British politics professor and he
gave me some advice that I wish I had listened to.
He said, he said, I was drunk every day in

(40:49):
college and I got a four point oh. And the
way I did it was I came straight home and
I did my work and then I went out and
I had a hell of a time and I flipped
that and to poor results. You know, I just put
off everything until last minute and tried to have a
hell of a time. But it's hard to relax and
enjoy yourself when you know you've got an exam that

(41:11):
you're not prepared for. So it was I don't know,
it was a great experience, and I probably found myself
in college, but I I regret not being as present
for it and and uh not being a better student.
You obviously weren't focusing on academics, were you, you know,

(41:32):
playing music where you're hanging with the girls, You're getting drunk.
What was going on? Yeah, all the above, Um, uh,
it was it was, Um, I try to take advantage
of all that. Um and uh, you know, being away
from home. I failed health my first semester because you know,

(41:55):
I just it was the classes at eight in the morning,
and I just wouldn't no intention I'm going that early. Um. Yeah,
I just tried to make friends and and uh and
kind of find my new identity and and I kept
playing music and started to write some songs and earnest
and and um figure out how I could play them

(42:17):
perfect folks. Okay, so what point does this trip start
to become You want to be a professional musician somewhere
somewhere in college? I mean there. I live in a
dry county, so there was nowhere to play music, um,
except for these kind of coffeehouse things that we would do,
these little shows. Uh. But I I think I had

(42:41):
known for a long time it's what I wanted to
do another idea that I could, that I could that
there was you know, I thought you either have to
be on MTV. UM. I didn't know how. I didn't
know how you go about being a singer songwriter, but
I knew that I loved it and I had a
passion for it and that I would always regret if
I didn't try to do it. So I just kind

(43:03):
of floated through college with the idea that I was
going to get out and then go try it somewhere. Okay,
a couple of questions for those of us who grew
up on the coasts. You know, though Bill Clinton was
from Arkansas, since you've traveled the country, if not the

(43:23):
world at this point and seeing everything is Arkansas state
of mind like everywhere else are completely different. Uh, I
think it's uh. I remember coming in, you know, I
always used to say Texas is the one place, like
the place where people are the most proud of themselves

(43:45):
of anywhere in the world, regardless of you know, they
haven't necessarily done anything to earn it, but there's just
this pride and and being from Texas and and uh
I remember getting to Arkansas and kind of wagging around
I'm meeting some folks from Texas, and hey, we're we're Texans,
and I thought we were connecting and and they stopped

(44:06):
me real quickly said, we don't do that around here.
And and I realized. I started to realize, not only
is it obnoxious, but uh, um, you know, our Kansans
had a lot of pride about where they were from.
And uh and and just like I found that everywhere
in the country has something to offer and um uh

(44:27):
you know most folks appreciate that and and and um.
So so okay, so you graduate from college, you're going
to be a singer songwriter. What are your parents the
attorneys to have to say to what degree did they
support you? And what are your initial moves? Well, they
supported me by uh, just emotionally encouraging me. Like I

(44:50):
got very lucky in that. You know, they never they
were not the type of folks who were super concerned
or at least outwardly with you know, how are you
going to make a living? They just let me do
what I wanted to do, and so that that was
a blessing. So I got out of college, I went

(45:11):
in detasseled corn in Iowa for the summer um with
some friends uh. And then moved down to Crystal Beach, Texas.
UM on the ball of a peninsula, which is this
very remote beach. It used to be the cheapest beach
in America. It probably still is. And um and so uh,

(45:36):
I'm I started hanging out in bars down there and
um with the idea that I was just gonna live
by the water and write songs. And uh that's how
I got to start. But my parents, I remember telling
him I wanted to be a singer songwriter and my
mom said, can you sing? Uh? You know, it was
very surprising to them. Um. And she also said, you know,

(45:57):
I grew up in this planning community and and I said,
I want to be a country singer. And she said, well,
you can't be a country singer, like what are you
gonna sing about? How they ran out of towels at
the country club and uh, you know, so she told
me I had to be a folk singer, um sitting
down and play. But um. Anyway, so they were they

(46:18):
were supportive, and they're good natured about it. And and
I think they were probably very skeptical that anything was
gonna happen, but they gave me room to to find
out what I wanted to do. And to what degree
did they financially support you? And while you were down
there at the beach plane in bars, what are you
living on? Uh, let's see, financially supporting? Well, the they

(46:39):
didn't give me money but uh um um, but they
were there if I needed them, which you know is reassuring.
And I didn't need them. Um. I was fortunate to
get by. I lived pretty cheaply and and um uh
and I had jobs. I was doing landscaping or or uh.

(47:01):
I was a bartending and waiting tables and it was
a medical test patients and I man did anything I
could to scrape together some money and then I would Uh.
There was a bar used to hang out at uh
called Bob's Sports Bar and world famous grill, and uh.
I went up to the owner one day and I said,

(47:22):
can I set up in the corner and uh play music?
You don't have to pay me, I just you know,
I'll put a tip jar out and he said sure.
So I got a four hour gig and uh that
started working for me. I started getting other shows up
and down to this remote beach, planned for two people,

(47:43):
ten people or whatever, and um um but I started
making fifty bucks a night, you know, a hundred bucks
a night, um on a good night. And and back then,
I mean I didn't have a bank account. It's all cash,
so you know, I wouldn't paying taxes and and and uh,
I wasn't making much money, but I didn't have much
to spend it on. And we're playing covers or originals.

(48:06):
It was all covers. So that's where my my memory
of lyrics came in handy because I could whether I
knew the song or not. Uh, musically, I mean I could.
I usually figured out with a capeo and my limited
knowledge of chords. Um, but I could always remember the lyrics.
And so people would come in and they would request
Jimmy Buffett or Paul Simon or Steve Miller or John

(48:29):
Prine or Chris Christopperson or Willie Nelson, whatever it was
I could. I could usually pull something out that would
satisfy them. Okay, so what's the next step? How do
you start writing songs? And how do you move up
the ladder? So to speak? So I really got lucky
in I mean I was writing songs through college and
then and then continue to at the beach, and I

(48:50):
was waiting tables in Galveston Island, which is uh, you
take a ferry across the bay to the island. And
and one night after work, I was ah going out
with some co workers to a bar and the bar
was closed, and so I'm walking back to my car
and I hear music coming down an alley and I

(49:10):
take a left down this alley with another one of
those moments that completely changed the course of my life. Um,
and I followed the music and walk into this bar
and there's somebody on stage playing guitar and singing. And
there's a shrine to Towns van Zant on one wall
and another shrine to Lightning Hopkins on another wall. And

(49:35):
it's a place called the Old Quarter Acoustic Cafe. And
the original Old Quarter was in Houston and it was
a bar um that Town's VanZant recorded an iconic live
record at. And this offshoot was owned by his former
bass player again named Rex Bell. And uh, it was

(49:57):
an open mic night. So I asked the rec like,
can you can I get up there? And he said sure.
So when out grabbed my car, my to my car
and got my guitar, came back in and got on stage,
played a loud love It song and that became my
second home. UM. I started at tending bar there, hanging
out doing open mics and um and so I've been

(50:20):
playing covers six nights a week down on the Peninsula,
but this was a place where I could play my
own songs and and Rex started letting me open for people. UM.
And there was a touring circuit, which I didn't know
was a thing, and all these singer songwriters, uh Willis,
Allen Ramsey and Steve Fromholtz and Shake Russell and Dana

(50:43):
Cooper and sisters Morales and Ray Wiley Hubbard and all
these folks will come through and they had careers like
they did this for a living, but playing their own music,
and people would buy ticket stuff to see it, which
was just uh incredible to me. And I started to
get into open for the open for these people. UM
and a few of them started taking me on the

(51:04):
road two open shows in Houston or San Antonio or
Dallas or Austin. And so that's when things really started
kicking into gear. Was was other musicians kind of showing
me the ropes and taking me out, get me started.
And how do you end up making a record. Well,
one of those musicians was Lisa Morales. She had a
band called Sisters Morales, and UH, I had some songs

(51:26):
together and and I was going to just make a
a record. I had no idea how I was going
to do in somebody's garage probably and it would have
been a disaster and I probably wouldn't be here today. UM.
But Lisa stepped in and offered to produce the record,
and I said yes, And so we went to Willie
Nelson's studio and put Analysis, Texas, and she got a

(51:49):
great crew of players and we made a made a record,
and UM, I sent it to a guy named Brad
Turcott who had a upstart label called UH Compadre Records,
and he didn't he had done a couple of compilations,
but he didn't have any actual acts artists, and UM

(52:11):
I sent it to him and he he signed me
to a licensing deal. So UM, another really good stroke
of luck, because I had no idea how to get
a record out there, and so all of a sudden,
now I had a record that was professionally produced, and
I had a record label UM that didn't have any
other artists but UM, and the guy was younger than
Brad was probably younger than I was. I think he

(52:32):
was twenty three and he was in law school and
running a record label. Um but uh, but he did
a great job of it, and and it showed me
here's what a publicist is, here's uh, here's your first tour.
He got me an agent and and um uh, here's
a radio promoter and all these things that I had
no idea about any of this. I was just you know,

(52:53):
a cover singer in a bar and then but you
know who was writing songs on the side. So, um,
this really opened up my world. Okay, so you paid
for all that yourself or he paid. I paid for
the record. I took out a loan, a line of credit.
So I made the record and then I licensed it
to him, and then he paid for everything after that.

(53:13):
So we had a seven year licensing deal and which
was also he paid for the publicity, etcetera. Yeah. Yeah,
So what was the ultimate reception of that record? We
sold fifty six copies the first week. I still remember
that number. Um, and uh, you know, it didn't do
a ton, but it got me all those elements. The

(53:34):
radio and the publicity, got me on the radar a
little bit, got me out of state touring UM and
helped me start to build up a little bit of
an audience around Texas. UM. UM, there were certain clubs
where I could go and make money now doing my
own songs, which before that had not been a reality.
So what's the next step with the next album. Well,

(53:56):
I met Mike Crowley, who I told you about UM
and be my first manager. I Well, I went and
made a second record, paid for the second record on
my own as well, UM, and took it to Brad
and asked if you wanted to to put it out
and he passed. And so I was a free agent

(54:16):
and I was looking around it at different labels that
there were a couple of labels who were offering me deals.
But I grew up reading all the books about how
musicians get screwed and how you can sell a million
records and end up owing your label money and all
these kind of things. Uh. And I always was determined,
like I never thought I would actually have a shot.

(54:37):
But I told myself, if I do have a shot,
I'm gonna sink or swim on my own. Like I
didn't want to be dependent on somebody else too too,
or let them have control of my career or be
able to sink my career. If I wasn't gonna succeed,
it was gonna because I wasn't very good, or because
I didn't work hard enough, not because somebody else put

(54:57):
me on the shelf or didn't promote in the way
that you know need to be done. So I met
up with Mike Crowley and we formed our own label,
and I put out my second records called Little Rock,
and it got on the radio. There's a radio station
in Dallas called h y I, and one of the
songs on there became kind of a hit, uh for

(55:19):
you know, a regional hit, and overnight my crowds went
from twenty people too. And it was the power of
the radio. H was in full effect. And we ended
up selling copies of that record, um, which for you know,

(55:40):
independent artists run as the label was, was a success. Okay,
how did it get on the radio if you were
an independent artist? Oh? We hired a radio promoter, same deal,
just kind of Americana radio promoter. And okay, so this
record forts quite a lot as an independent. Then how
do you make a deal with Lost Highway? A woman
named Kim Boie did an r for Lost Highway, and

(56:03):
she she came out to his show. I don't remember
where when, but I think it was in Nashville, and
and we met and and at some point she just
reached out and said that they were interested in and
signing me. And I remember looking at the roster and
seeing Willie Nelson and uh Elvis Costello and Ryan Adams

(56:29):
and Lucinda Williams and Van Morrison. It was this fantastic
roster um and a part of me thought, this is
a no brainer. But then there was the other part
of me that had just created a successful record label,
I mean, you know, relatively successful record label. And I
always remember this quote from John Prine. He's he said

(56:53):
with when he started Old Boy Records. He said, I
sell a third of the records that I used to sell,
and I make three times the money. And that always
stuck with me. And I was hesitant to let go
of this thing and be with somebody else. But the
roster was incredible, and the people that worked for the company,

(57:15):
we're all incredible, and so I just took a leap
of faith and and I thought this, this is I think,
a really great opportunity, and they'll either drop me after
a couple of records and hopefully my career will be
bigger and I can go back to doing on my own,
or it will be a success and everybody will be happy,
kind of a mix of both. Actually, uh Um. I

(57:36):
put out my the first record with him is called
Trouble in Mind and its I don't know what the
numbers are now, it's probably it's over a hundred thousand
copies and that's my most successful record, um to date,
and and uh it did pretty well. And then I
put out a second one called Came a Yo Yo,

(57:57):
and it probably did eighty or ninety um and it
was fine. I've I've I've since recouped, which my wife
tells me is unusual to recoup from a major label.
Um uh. But the things started slowing down there and
I uh uh, they weren't signing new acts, and I
think Luke Lewis was um Um, who had been really supportive,

(58:22):
was was moving on and and so they had the
rights to another record. But he told me it's like,
if you want to get out of here, you can,
and and uh you probably it might be a good
idea because uh, it just seemed like things weren't going
to be there very long. So uh so I jumped

(58:42):
out and that was the end of it. But it
was a really really positive experience. They never asked me
do anything I didn't want to do, and they were
They spent a bunch of money promoting my stuff and
and and raised my visibility to a point that it
would not have gotten to without him. Okay, you meeting
of the record independently, and then you made another one.

(59:03):
The last one was for Dual Tone. How did you
decide to go with the company again? Well, I did,
Uh yeah, I did a record with thirty Tigers UM
called Lovers and Levers, and then UM Mike and I
parted ways and I worked with another manager named Griff Morris,
and uh, my career was kind of it had taken

(59:27):
a dip. You know, It's been five years in between records,
and I wasn't touring as much, and my the that
Lovers and Levers record was a pretty somber affair. I
love it. I made it with Joe Henry and I'm
really proud of that record, but it was very different
than what I put up before. And I think a
lot of my fans between the laps or between the

(59:49):
time that had had had happened between records and the
tone of that record, A lot of people who had
come out to drink and shout and dance and fight
and make out and holler and sing along, it wasn't
really the thing for them, and so I lost a

(01:00:10):
lot of fans. And uh so I think, uh, the
idea of when I was working with Griff was, we
need we need some energy here, we need to kick
start things again, and so trying to build up a
team with a good record, label, publisher, things like that
became the priority. And and so we met with dualtone

(01:00:31):
and I really liked what they had to say and
ended up working together. Okay, so at this late date,
you've been in the game twenty years, do you feel
you're inside or outside? I mean, the business is completely
change starting the turn of the century, and you know
there are these acts that you know, dominate Spotify, and

(01:00:54):
then there are all these acts that either used to
have success or independent from the start. Who were about me?
Is there a scene or you just one guy who's
grinding it out? Is there a scene? You know? Early
on it was it was there was a scene in Texas. Uh,
just an incredible audience down there that just music is

(01:01:16):
part of the culture and life in a way like
unlike I've seen anywhere else. Um And so that that
was a big boost for me. And then the Americana
scene really if if there, I mean, I don't even
know what the scene is, but the UM I met
a lot of kind of like minded artists and and
everything from Canadian songwriters like fred Eagle Smith or Cory

(01:01:39):
Blonde to um uh you know folks in the States
Shovels and Rope or Jason Nesbo or um. You know,
there were there were there were people that I toured
with and all ninety seven's and just different bands that
that uh I connected with and and um I felt

(01:02:00):
it was similar to what I was trying to do.
They were songwriters who had a roots sensibility of country
and rock, and so that all kind of fell into
the umbrella of Americana. I guess, well, what would you
say the state of Americana is today, because certainly it
was a new thing, you know, at the turn of
the century, and everybody's talking about it and now everyone
thinks it's is genre. But other than Jason is Bill,

(01:02:21):
you don't hear that much about the act and I'm
not talking that's not happening, but it doesn't float to
the general as we say mainstream media. Yeah, I think
the state is pretty good. I mean, first of all,
I have no idea, like, no one has ever come
up with a definition of Americana that I can remember
or feel like, you know, it makes any sense. So

(01:02:42):
it's a pretty catch all thing. But you know, lately
I feel like whether it's Jason or the Turnpike, Troubadours
or um Sturgill Simpson or um, I don't know, there's

(01:03:02):
there's a long list of folks that are m Yeah,
I don't know if they would label themselves as any
of these things. But American or or the the the
off the beaten path, non mainstream music world certainly embraced
them and call them their own. And and those people
are doing big business and and it may not be

(01:03:25):
something that uh, I mean, I guess all relative, but um,
you know, people are playing arenas and and and um,
selling out stuff left and right, and and uh it
may not be mains like totally mainstream popular culture, but
there is absolutely an audience out there, uh, in the

(01:03:47):
tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands for or millions
for some of these folks, and and uh and yeah,
Brandy Carlisle would be one of those people. And again
like where I don't want to label people that they
may not want to be labeled with that, but but
these are like non traditional A lot of these people
are doing this without major labels. A lot of them
are doing it um independently and and uh just completely

(01:04:14):
in their own style. So we are you in that hierarchy?
And what do you want? I mean back in the
major label era, there are all these songwriters like you mentioned,
you know Towns, Vian Sand and other people, uh who

(01:04:36):
had were icons in Texas, but once you got outside
the borders of Texas, you have to be paying attention
to know who they are. Are you someone and says
well this is what I do or I want more?
Or are you somewhat depressed because you feel like you
missed the target? Where are you at on your career
right now? Yeah, it's trying to figure that out. Um.

(01:05:00):
I'm kind of at a point where I'm trying to
do the work the best I can and and sort
of accept where the chips fall. And that doesn't mean
I'm not working hard. Um Uh, my goal is to
to take care of my family and to do work
that I'm proud of. Um, I can't worry too much

(01:05:22):
about the numbers or where my careers are comparing its
somebody else's career. It's that's uh, that is not a
good head space for me, and it's not what makes
me happy. I finally realized, like if if I sold
another uh, you know, twenty thousand tickets this year on
the road, uh, you know, there would there would be

(01:05:44):
it would be great to be able to afford the
buses or or or you know, travel a little better,
but the overhead goes up and and like with each stage, UM,
I guess what I'm realizing is there's no finish line.
There's no oh now now everything is good and they're
never will be. You know. Garth Brooks is you know,
he's he's sold more records than Elvis, and he's still

(01:06:05):
trying to figure out, uh like at a certain point,
who who can you compete with? And and so I
just it sounds try it, I guess, but I'm really
interested in doing work that will last, and work that
I can be proud of. And um, and I have

(01:06:26):
faith and again come out of the pandemic. It's something
that I know there's an audience out there. It may
not be as big as I once had hoped it
would be, but I also realized I don't need it
to be um hard. I'm a singer songwriter. I don't
need to be rocking in front of ten thousand people.
I'm actually quite uncomfortable doing that. UM. I like to
be able to to connect with my audience and and UM,

(01:06:53):
for me, that's a more intimate way. So I mean,
I can still tear about hoky talk and and rock out,
but uh um, at the end of the day of
what I think I do best is write songs and
connect to people in a in au from the stage
in an intimate way. Okay, let's use the classic example

(01:07:13):
Bruce Springsteen. He's been around for a while, different era. Okay,
delivers a record and the manager says not done. He
goes right dancing in the dark. Now, that album Born
in the USA was more upbeat, certainly Nebraska that came
before it, but some of the other work. But you know,
across the catalog he had, he had uppers and downers.

(01:07:34):
You ever sit there and say, I've been doing this
a long time. I know what the market is. Let
me write something that I believe will resonate with the market. Yeah,
I don't know how to do that. Just let's go
back in chapter. How do you do it? In terms
of songwriting? Well, I used to just be observation and inspiration.

(01:07:55):
And you know, I thought I mentioned Carolac and Dylan.
You know, I thought the key to me a songwriters
you just take a bunch of pills and drink heavily
and and live a wildlife and and every once in
a while lightning strikes and you just write it down
and and you're just in a channel for it. And
then that's it. And you either have that ability or

(01:08:16):
you don't. And um, I mean they're there's there's something
to that, but uh, it's not sustainable. It's not a craft.
And um So for years I sort of did did
things that way, um, and then it sort of dried

(01:08:36):
up and I didn't know what I was doing. I
didn't know what I was writing about. I didn't know myself.
And so these days I'm much more interested in the
craft of it and annoying myself and working through something.
And um, I'll tell you a quick ancdote if I can't. Uh, well,
nothing to do is quick, but I'll try to make
it so. Um. There's a There was a legendary songwriter

(01:08:59):
named Guy Clark, who, when I was twenty four, let
me come over to his house and write a song
with him. And this is to me. It was an
icon and somebody I really looked up to. And he
was very deliberate. He had a basement downstairs where he
built guitars, and he wrote these songs on graph paper
and every letter, every square had a letter in it
for the song. And we worked on something and got

(01:09:23):
it started, and I went home and finished it up,
and I sent him a tape or something with it,
and he called me up and said, you need to
change this to that and this here that there these
very minute details, and I remember thinking, uh, this is unnecessary,
this is not this, it doesn't matter, um, And it

(01:09:45):
was not at all the way that I wrote. I
did not revise and edit and draft and spend time
with it. I tried to catch lightning in a bottle
and if it didn't work, there was nothing there, and
if it did, that's what it was. Now. I look
back at that guy, and it's really trying to beat
myself up. But I'm embarrassed by that, um, because now

(01:10:06):
I am I'm not saying I'm a guy Clark's level
as a writer, but that is much more high. Right now.
I'm intentional and I deliberate, and songs every one, small
sometime will come out in a day. I wrote one today, um,
which was nice and rare to finish a song in
a day. But these days I'll put weeks and months

(01:10:26):
of time into something to make sure it's right. I
can't let it go anymore. I used to just throw
it out and go it's good enough, and now there's
something that's changed where I can't. That doesn't work for me.
It has to be able to stand up and and um.
So that's that's the process for me now. Okay, but

(01:10:46):
let's go back to the real beginning. Do you say, hey,
I want to make a record, therefore I'm gonna write songs,
or you're writing songs and all of a sudden you
realize you have an album, or or do you say
I need life, more life experience, I'm gonna wait until
I got more to write about. We're gonna work every
day and write a song. What's the process? Well, the
inspiration was just first of all songwriters, they articulated what

(01:11:10):
I felt, and to me, it was the most magical
thing and the coolest job I could imagine. It was
it was it was it was magic, um to be
able to articulate the human experience and describe it and
and make you feel these things. And so I just
I was drawn to it, and I wanted to be

(01:11:32):
able to do that um uh and and in any
creative form really, but I have attention issues, So I
figured I'll never be a novelist because I can't focus
that long. But a song three minutes, maybe I could.
Maybe there's hope there. Um. And I just did it
from my own self. Again, I never had any I
didn't know how you become a professional anything to do

(01:11:56):
with the music business. So it was it was not
my world growing up, It was not my world in college. UM.
So I was just doing it because I had a
dream for it, passion for it, and and so I
just wrote to wrote to write and um. And then
I started getting gigs. Then I really kind of kicked

(01:12:18):
it up a gear because it was I started getting
open for people in front of real audiences, and I thought,
I gotta have something to say here, um, or I
can just play covers or if I want to have
any kind of career in my own. Okay, so you
wrote a song this morning. Was it because you said, Okay,
I'm gonna write a song, I went to my room
and worked on it, or you all of a sudden

(01:12:39):
had an inspiration? Do you do this every day? Try
to write a song? Well, I try to put some
time in every day. I don't succeed, um usually, but
you know today I had a co write. Uh. Guy
named Driver Williams plays guitar with Eric Church. He has
a uh he lives here in town. And and um,
we've had pretty successful run the last year or two

(01:13:02):
of writing songs. So um we got together and and
uh I wrote one that I quite like. So it
was it was a prearranged deal. To what degree do
you like working with others supposed to doing it alone? Well,
it's I used to write everything by myself. And then
I had a couple uh folks like Guy Clark and

(01:13:23):
right Wiley Hubbard who who who showed me about co
writing and um uh and then I started relying on
it more and more as I sort of lost my
own inspiration, I started relying on other people for theirs,
and then I became kind of an editor of songs

(01:13:45):
rather than a creator of songs. And uh now it's
kind of come to where I I feel like I
can write on my own. I'm doing a lot more
of that these days, UM, but also enjoying writing with
other people. They're times where it's a drag, but there's
a there's a real magic that happens when you you know,

(01:14:06):
you get into a flow and you each have a
kind of role that you're playing. And sometimes I'm just
helping them edit, and sometimes they're helping they're just editing me,
and and or sometimes it's completely even, but it's it's
it's uh, that chemistry when it works is really cool.
And and I end up both songs that I never
would have come up with my own, and and and

(01:14:26):
can use other people's talents. And I learned a lot
too from that. UM. You know, there's no songwriting school.
I didn't go to one. UM, So to to get
to sit with with really creative, talented people and watch
their process, always learn something. And what happens to these songs?
Are they for you or you try to get them covered?
They used to all be for me, um, because I

(01:14:48):
was the most important thing to me was being the
artist and and now I'm I'm just as happy for
other people to go out and do the work and
make the money so for me. So um, it's a
bit of both. I'm always writing for myself, but uh,
I mean that's always in my mind. Um. But in

(01:15:09):
the last couple of years, I've really uh leaned into
just writing to write and and doing these co writes
and living here. I moved to Nashville. Was in Austin
for twelve years, and I've been in Nashville for a
few years now, and and um there's you know, the
whole uh ecosystem and the music industry's country music is here,

(01:15:33):
and and um, so you can write a song and
it can be and somebody's you know, some of you
me listening to it that day, and and it can
be get cut that week, and which is it doesn't
happen often to me, but but the possibility is there.
And so that that's that's a fun muscle I've been

(01:15:55):
working out lately, is is just to write the best
song I can and not think about, uh, you know,
can I do it? And it's something too about my
my stuff. I relied on my personality and my delivery
to get a song across and rather than crafting the
song to be something that anybody could sing. And so
that's that's something that's important to me too, is I

(01:16:17):
want to write a song and not have to be
able to wink at the audience or deliver it a
certain way. I want to write it towards bulletproof, so
anybody can pick it up and sing it and people
can go, that's a hell of a song. It doesn't
have to be my unique delivery, uh to to to
land it that that it could be a standard. Everything
could give it up. No, do you have the same

(01:16:38):
motivation you have now then you did at the beginning? Uh? Yeah, yeah,
in a way. I mean, I'm I'm probably a little
more sorted and I don't have the same fire. I mean,
when you're in your twenties and you're just trying to
make a mark and and do something and find yourself,
that was that was an energy that I will never

(01:16:59):
be able to recap. Sure, But uh but yeah, I'm
I have a lot of work to do and a
lot of things that I'm excited about still, and I've
i am still in love with the act of creating
a song, where they're creating something out of nothing. So
you have a son. How many times have you been married?

(01:17:22):
And now you're married to Alison? Give me the run there.
I had my son in two thousand three. His name
is Eli. Uh and um, I'm married. I've been married twice.
So my first wife is Eli's mom and we were
married for nine years I think, um, and we got

(01:17:45):
divorced h seven years ago. And uh Alison and I
got married, uh three and a half, it'll be three
years in May. Where's your son today? My son is
in Austin. Uh. Uh he's just graduated high school and
in his uh about to go to college. So how

(01:18:05):
did you meet Allison? How do you end up marrying it?
She has an autistic son with her previous husband, Steve Earle,
And what how often is the child with you? And
how does that affect your everyday life? I met Allison
in two thousand three, I think, uh. We had some

(01:18:26):
mutual friends. I was just starting to come to town
and she um actually sang on my second record in
two thousand four and uh and we were friendly um
for years, but I didn't see much of her and UM,

(01:18:49):
and we just I invited her to a show. I
was up in New York, um and invited her to
a show and and she couldn't make the show, but
we met up for uh a drink and and UM
you know, much to our surprise, uh connected UM and yes,
she has a son named John Henry who UM is

(01:19:13):
eleven and is level three autism. He's nonverbal and UM
her she just released her second book, which is titled
A Dreamy Talks to Me and it's uh it's about
about John Henry in life with him and UM. Right now,

(01:19:35):
John Henry is in New York with his dad UM
for the school year, and then he spends the summers
with us and Alison. Uh. When John hery was diagnosed,
sort of quit touring so that she could be there
full time with him and and uh Steve UM continue

(01:19:59):
to tour R and um. Uh they split up shortly
after the diagnosis and so now we we split time essentially. UM.
And is she going back on the road with the
status of her career, She's gonna go out her her
sister's uh wonderful artists and Shelby Lynn and UM they're

(01:20:22):
gonna go and do a few dates in April, Um,
just a week, I think. Um, but that's that's it.
She's trying to slow down. You know, she's put she's
put out eleven records and two books, and um, is
is um trying to to slow down? UM. I don't

(01:20:44):
know how much luck she's having with it, but UM,
so there won't be a lot of touring this year,
but they do have some dates, which the two of
them together is really something special. So what is it
you're trying to say in your songs? What is it
you want to get across that would make it that
someone needs to listen to your music? Well, I don't.
I don't look at it that way anymore. I mean,

(01:21:06):
when I was younger, it was what I was trying
to say, was I was trying to put words to
whatever I was feeling. Um, And I'm not sure, UM,
I'm not sure how important that was. You know, felt
incredibly important. But uh, these days I don't. I UM,

(01:21:33):
I sit down with a song and try to or
an idea and try to find what it has to
tell me and then flesh it out and coax it
in and into the uh, polished it as best I
can to to where it says something. So uh, you know,

(01:21:55):
today we wrote a song about addiction, about somebody who
dies and and the person that's left behind, how angry
they are, and and all the emotions, the sadness and
the anger and then ultimately the forgiveness. And that's interesting
to me. And I didn't think about it. I wasn't

(01:22:16):
thinking about it two days ago. It wasn't I didn't
think I need to write a song about addiction. But
there's a lot of addiction in my life surrounding me
these days, and and and um it's been on my mind.
And so then it just came up, um in in
the in the room, we started writing about it. So

(01:22:38):
I'm interested in finding those ideas and then and then
fleshing them out. But I don't walk around thinking I
need to tell the world this or that. Um. I
I have some ideas from my own stuff that I'm
I feel like I'm scratching the the surface of kind
of finding my voice in a in a new way

(01:22:59):
or a point of view. Um, But right now it's it's, uh,
I'm not there yet, and and those those things kind
of change and take time. So I'm just trying to
be patient until I find something I really am passionate
about saying. So you talk about going out with your band,
that inherently adds costs. So it's just the same guys,

(01:23:19):
what have they been doing? And you could save a
lot of money going out alone. But would that just
be a different thing? Well, I do both. Um. I
started out solo and UM and this year I'll next
month I'll do probably seven shows solo and then I'll
go out and do thirty in a row with the band. Uh. Yeah,

(01:23:42):
it's I mean, that's the That's one of the things
about doing this is is figuring out how can you
how do you best deliver it? First of all, UM,
And I'm still not sure if I'm better as solo
artist or with a band or with a sideman. UM.
But there are some um career opportunities that that I

(01:24:04):
don't get as a solo artist that I would with
a band. So I can go play two nights at
Green Hall in Texas and do you know fift people
and and um uh you know, I have a really
successful weekend at a dance hall. But if I have

(01:24:26):
the band, but I can't do the same thing solo. UM.
But then you know, like you said, A lot of that,
A lot of that profit is eaten up by salaries
and hotel rooms and per deems and all that stuff.
And um, so I'm always trying to trying to find
a line of where I can do what I need

(01:24:48):
financially and um, but keep the band. I like having
that element. I like being a solo artist, like like
going out by myself and playing a listing room, and
I like getting the band together and tearing but a
dance hall. It's uh, I enjoy being able to do both. Um.
I think I would get bored if I can only
do one thing and it's just the same guys each time.

(01:25:09):
Oh it's changed over the years, but right now I've
got a pretty uh consistent abandoned career. And what they
do to get through the pandemic, well, um, everything from
Patreon to teaching online music lessons to um, you know,
government assistance too. I helped out in the beginning where
I could, Um, one of them became a substitute teacher.

(01:25:32):
That's uh, you know, everybody's hustling. Okay, So let's say
someone is unfamiliar with your work, what are the two
songs they should listen to that you think would really
depict where you're coming from that they need to hear.
Oh boy, Um, Well, I'm gonna go with my most

(01:25:56):
recent record. I've got two songs on there that I think,
UH show at least part of the range. And their
two songs I'm really proud of I've got the title
track is called you Get It All and um, which
is just uh sort of introspective love song. But but
I feel like it's got all the elements that that

(01:26:19):
I'm drawn too in songs, the word play and and
and a little bit of levity and um uh and
a country feel. Um. It's it's I think it's well written,
if I do say so myself. And then um, the
other one off this record that I think it's it's

(01:26:39):
one of the things I'm most proud of that I've
ever done. Uh is a song I sent to you
called help Me Remember, and that uh is just one
of my Uh It's just one of the things I'm
most proud of. I worked really hard on it with

(01:27:01):
with the Josh Morning Star, UM great songwriter, and and
we really brought it home. I think, yeah, I know
what it's about. Could you tell if those people were
unfamiliar with what it's about well, help me remembers about dementia,
Alzheimer's people struggling with that, and and U and about
the having a witness to your life um, which is ah,

(01:27:27):
sometimes I think about a lot um. So it's uh,
it's it's a song written from the perspective of someone
suffering dementia and and sort of losing the thread to
their own story and asking their spouse to help fill
in the blanks about who they were and what their
life was, what they were about, what their life was like.

(01:27:49):
So what do you mean about having a witness? Well,
I mean I was thinking about the idea of not
remembering who you were. You know, your partner, your friends,
your children, those are people who saw you through your life.
They knew what you were about. They knew your actions,

(01:28:10):
they knew whether you were where you were good and
where you struggled. They knew, um, what you aspired to.
And it's heartbreaking to think about losing that self knowledge,

(01:28:30):
but people do. And so the idea of having a
witness to your life is is exactly that somebody who
was there for your life and can tell you this
is what you were about, this is the kind of
person you were. You were. This is the kind of
parent you were, it's kind of spouse, it's the kind
of citizen. Um that that just really struck me. My

(01:28:58):
grandfather suffered from dementia just a little bit before he passed,
and he had too things that happened that really stood
out to me. One I was riding in his pickup
truck in Waco, Texas, and he pulled up to the
stoplight and he turned around to me and asked me
where we were and I had no idea, and that

(01:29:20):
was his hometown. I didn't live there, and I was fourteen,
and he looked scared, and you know, this was a
drive he had made ten thousand times he and he
was lost. And then there was another time. My grandfather
was a really loving, sweet man, and there was one

(01:29:42):
day where he was not being either of those things.
And I remember my my dad pulled me aside. He said,
don't remember your grandfather this way. Yeah, this is not
who he is. And I guess that's what I mean
is m My dad was a witness, you know, my

(01:30:05):
grandmother was a witness. And as my grandfather was starting
to struggle with knowing who he was and where he was,
the idea of having people who did know that and
could remind you. Uh. It seemed like a very powerful
one and an important thing to have. Well, Hayes, I
think we've come to the end of the feeling we've known.

(01:30:26):
Thanks for being so honest and open. You're a real thinker,
and you're giving very insightful the answer. So thanks so
much for doing this well. Thank you, Bob. I'm i'm
I really appreciate your newsletter and and you give me
and I can think about every years. Thank you til
next time. This is Bob Left Sense