Henry Paul

Of the Outlaws, the Henry Paul Band and Blackhawk.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the bob Lefset's podcast. My
guest today is Henry Hall, who has a new book
to last out. Henry, isn't today your birthday?

Speaker 2 (00:22):
Today is my birthday?

Speaker 1 (00:24):
So what are your special plans?

Speaker 2 (00:28):
Well, my son's coming over for dinner. He's a very
entertaining character. So we're going to make some pae, drink
some Spanish wine. My wife is cooking dinner for me,
which is not unusual, but we both share the cooking duties,

(00:49):
but she's commandeering the kitchen for my birthday tonight.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
So pae good pie is great. How did you learn
how to make paea?

Speaker 2 (00:59):
Well, you know, growing up in Tampa with a Cuban community.
It was the kind of part of the landscape.

Speaker 1 (01:07):
Any other dishes you specialize it?

Speaker 2 (01:10):
Well, yeah, you know, I mean going back to the
Cuban thing, the Spanish thing, the chicken and yellow rice.
I love to make hyea. I love French bistro cooking, coke, Wova,
boothberg Ignon. Gosh, you know, I'm just going to tell

(01:33):
you this my spaghetti sauce. Seriously, if you're a soulful
character that knows the difference between good and great. My
sauce would qualify.

Speaker 1 (01:43):
But make sure so magic. What's the essence of the recipe?

Speaker 2 (01:48):
Time homegrown tomatoes. I don't use ground beef. I use
ground hot Italian sausage as my base for the sauce.
I don't know. You know, it's so heavy that you
can't eat it very often. We probably make that once
every two or three months. But when we do, we

(02:10):
gain five pounds. It's part of it.

Speaker 1 (02:13):
What do you do about food on the road?

Speaker 2 (02:17):
Ah, that's a good one. Kind of you just try
and be discerning, try and pick and choose. But it
can get pretty ugly. It can get pretty damn ugly. Now,
if you're on the Lenards Skinnered tour and the catering
is a notch or two above what you are used to,

(02:40):
that's half the attraction anymore. Forget exposure to a large audience.
It's all about the catering.

Speaker 1 (02:50):
So, okay, you've been doing this a long time. You're
going to die on stage? No, So what would it
take for you to all the day?

Speaker 2 (03:02):
I'm close. When I was younger, I thought I wanted
to be you know, Willie Nelson when I grew up.
But I've had enough. I mean, honestly, I have a
four year old and a ten year old at home
and a young wife, and a greenhouse and some acreage
and a tractor, and you know, I would like to

(03:26):
go out maybe with a couple of people to sing
with and do acoustic and acoustic evening and tell some stories.
But my son, who is a very talented young man,
is more than capable of running the show out here,
and he wants to, and I want him to, and

(03:48):
so I thought maybe next year could be my last year.

Speaker 1 (03:52):
Can you say your son is people being running the show?
What exactly do you mean?

Speaker 2 (03:57):
Well, he's a much better guitar player than I am.
He's a really good singer, and he is a good leader.
He's a natural born chip off the old block. That way,
our family is brought with chiefs. There aren't a lot
of Indians.

Speaker 3 (04:19):
Okay, but if you stop, that would mean the Outlaws
would be on the road without any original members.

Speaker 2 (04:28):
Well, how many original tires do you have in your car? Bob?
You know, he's been out there since he was ten.
He's come in contact with the fan base extensively over
the years. He's a really kind person and he's a
very charismatic type of guy, and the fans know him,

(04:52):
they love him. He's been very kind to the fans,
and he's got the right name, and he's got a
very very long and storied not unlike Johnny van Zant
or Ricky Midlock, now, you know. I mean, I don't
mind saying that Lennard Skinner band is very good and
those people want to hear those songs, they want to
buy that T shirt, and that band puts on a

(05:14):
great show and is very faithful to the band's musical personality.
And I feel like the Outlaws and Blackhawk can go
on indefinitely because of the nature of the material. And
you know, little Henry has a unique talent for sounding

(05:35):
like his dad. There's a part of him that sounds
a little like me anyhow, and as you may know,
you know, it's kind of an unusual sounding voice. But
he he can do that, and I want him to
do that. I would That's something I can give him.
And the guys on the bus love and respect him,
and he can keep the band together and keep going.

Speaker 1 (05:58):
But even you know, our Laws had many men, Blackcaw
only had a few. You still think it could be
okay with him leading.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
The band absolutely well, you know, of course I would
say yes. But I think Blackhawk was a trio. The
Outlaws was a five piece rock band. The Blackhawk thing
is far more kind and gentle, you know, and thoughtful
and the Outlaws. You know, back when we were young people, man,

(06:29):
we were like all just clawn at the walls to
try and get ahead and be somebody. I think Dave
Robbins and I, which are the two surviving original members
of Blackhawk, I think Dave would be very helpful to Henry.
I know he would be, and I think he would
lend a significant amount of credibility to the brand. I

(06:51):
you know, how many original members and cover bands, and
you know, you hear that lot. But Lennard Skinner's out
there doing great and I'm using them as an example.
But you know, there's a lot of bands that represent

(07:15):
something musically to a generation of people and they want that.
And I think that it's fair to expect, you know,
a great show in the spirit of what it was,
what you know, what it was from a creative standpoint.

(07:39):
But you know, other than that, I don't know when
a band goes away, do they just go away? I mean,
do they just like just go away or do they
I don't know, keep going.

Speaker 1 (07:51):
Oh, it's an interesting thing, you know. I've been to
see Journey with the replacement singer and you're in the
audience and you realize the audience owns the songs more
than the band, and that they're experienced, they want to
hear the songs, and who's on stage isn't as important
to them as it might have been in the heyday.

Speaker 2 (08:11):
Well, and I think that we're conditioned to love the
original band. I think it's natural to feel that way.
I mean, maybe the Beatles are an exception. Whether can
you see the Beatles without John or Paul or George.
But I do believe that that people want to hear

(08:35):
those songs. They want them played and sang and treated
with respect and with you know, in a competent musical
form and fashion. One thing that has really helped the
Outlaws for the last fifteen or twenty years is that

(08:57):
I was unyield towards the band's original sound. And when
I wrote and recorded new studio records, I wrote and
recorded music that was faithful to the band's musical personality.
It was never spanned out ballet or any of that
you know, it was always the Outlaws, and I loved,

(09:22):
you know, just you know, continuing that musical personality and
being true to it felt really natural and right to me.
And so when the fan base got a new record,
they drop the needle and they'd go, Wow, this sounds
like the Outlaws. This is really good. The songs are

(09:44):
really good, the harmony, vocals are great, the guitars are sizzling.
It's a great sounding record in and I not because
it's my songwriting that is in the you know, at
the center of it. But there's some pretty damn good
songs on those records, and the performance is really good.

Speaker 1 (10:08):
Okay. You hear a lot about older artists that if
they play new material, people go to the bar. What's
your experience?

Speaker 2 (10:22):
Well, again, you know, I want to hear Bob Dylan
sing subterranean homesick clues. I'm not very interested in what
he has to say here in the last ten or
fifteen years. So if I put a new song in
the set and I'm writing about let me just give

(10:47):
you an example. If I'm if I'm coming from a
song off the first or second album and I put
a new song in a set, uh, and it speaks
to them lyrically, and it's and it speaks to them stylistically.

(11:07):
I can tell you from experience, you're going to get
what you want in the way of a reaction, and
uh uh, I think that. You know fans if they're
having a good time and they're on their feet and

(11:28):
the new material pushes their button, which it does, and
it speaks to them lyrically in a way that they
can relate. The walls of the Fillmore East still echo
with the sound and Midnight Writer memories forever haunt this town.

(11:50):
You know. It's like fire on the mountain, the voice
that can't you see. The reason Sweet Home Alibi means
so much to me is it's about pride. So you
put that in the show, and I defy you to
not want to love that and not want to react
to that. And so it's how you frame the music

(12:13):
lyrically and lyrically, that's how it kind of established itself
to begin with. And if you're wise to that and
you're consistent, then you can bring new life to the band.
We've done it, I mean Dixie Highway and It's about pride.

(12:36):
Those two albums have done incredibly well for us and
really helped give the band legitimacy, which I think was important.

Speaker 1 (12:49):
You talk about potentially stopping in a year. What's been
keeping you doing it for these last years?

Speaker 2 (12:58):
Well, most of all, I think I wanted to prove
to myself because Blackhawk is a uniquely personal musical personality
of my own sort of making. Along with Dave and band,

(13:18):
the Outlaws had three singer songwriters from the very early
stages of the group, and Huey emerged as the dominant
musical personality in the band. And when I left the

(13:39):
group upon my bandmates suggestion, it was hurtful and it
started a fire in me that was hard to put out.

(14:00):
Whether it was the Henry Paul Band, or coming back
to the Outlaws and establishing it as a really good, solid,
vocal and instrumental group, or whether it was when hue
passed away and I took the reins and brought the
band back. It was a personal thing for me to succeed,
and it was important for me to feel that success

(14:28):
because I had a large part in creating the Outlaws
and I had a very significant investment in their well being,
and it just gave me that late in life opportunity

(14:51):
to show myself as committed and to put a very
professional face on a band that had been through a
lot of changes and a lot of inglorious moments.

Speaker 1 (15:15):
So have you achieved your dream?

Speaker 2 (15:19):
I have, and I you know, I had. My goal
was to pull the fan base together and have everybody,
you know, in one place. I found out I could
not do that. I couldn't do that. I mean, it
didn't matter what I did. That wasn't going to happen.

(15:40):
But what I did do is I brought these people
that grew up listening to that band, and I brought
them back to the group, and the audience went through
over time, went through a significant ship and the people

(16:02):
that I was playing for became more familiar to me sociologically.

Speaker 1 (16:10):
And.

Speaker 2 (16:12):
They showed their enthusiasm for what we were doing in
a way that I internalized on a personal level. And so,
you know, it was important for me to feel like
I had put the Outlaws out there in a way

(16:34):
that was respectful and successful, especially from the standpoint of
the audience's reaction to the evening.

Speaker 1 (16:45):
So who's coming Ole Laws shows now?

Speaker 2 (16:50):
Well, I would say eighty percent of the audience is
the original people that discovered the band and supported it.
The twenty percent of the audience is young people that
love seventies southern raw musical personality or guitar driven musical personalities,

(17:20):
and the female quotient in the audience is at a
higher level.

Speaker 1 (17:29):
What do you think it counts for that?

Speaker 2 (17:32):
I think it's the respect that they are given from
the stage and the inviting nature of the rapport. And
I'm not talking about pandering. I'm just talking about appealing

(17:54):
to these people on a on a human level. And
instead of making it dark and sleeveless and male and
aggressive and motorcycle persona driven, we made it a little

(18:19):
bit lighter, a little bit more vocal, and a lot
more accessible. From the standpoint of our rapport, there's some
you know this, there's some nice looking guys in the band,
you know, I mean, it doesn't look ugly. It looks

(18:41):
really like American, like, for lack of a better word,
a little bit more you know, just accessible as people
the people on stage, and they're really kind people. And
I think through consistency of our rapport with the audience

(19:04):
over a decade or more, twenty almost years, and people said,
the Outlaws are playing in a really nice venue, they
sound really good. Let's go see the Outlaws and we'll
have some cocktails and we'll enjoy ourselves and it'll take

(19:25):
us back to when we were kids. And Henry will
come out and say hello, and they're very accessible and
he's a really nice guy. And the band sounds really good,
and you know, they look good. By looks good and
they sound good. And I just think over time, the audience,

(19:46):
I know, it went through a shift and it was
kind of like started to mirror the personalities on stage
rather than us trying to mimic our our audience.

Speaker 1 (20:03):
Okay, you've laid the base there. The band is now
on stage, you're the front person for the band. What
is the key to interacting personally with the audience.

Speaker 2 (20:17):
Well, I think if you're a gracious to begin with,
and you have an empathetic and gracious sort of spirit,
and you legitimately like people instead of being put off

(20:42):
by him or instead of being you know, uh, you know,
instead of being you know, intruded upon or feeling like,
you know, you need to just be alone or private.

(21:03):
I mean, we were very comfortable and cordial in interacting
with the fans, and it wasn't a conscientious decision made
on a marketing level. It was just who we were.
It's who I am, and the band mirrors my persona

(21:25):
when it comes to my appreciation for who these people are,
and when I speak to them, I speak to them
in a language that they recognize as being real. It's
not some flag waving veterans supporting, you know, just pandering

(21:51):
to some Southern rock persona or or perceived personality that
we have to assume. It's a very natural and very
accessible message, and I think it comes from being smart

(22:16):
enough to know that who you're dealing with are pretty
you know, receptive and intelligent and similar types of people
than as you know, they get the difference between kindness

(22:40):
or genuine you know, behavior and appreciation rather than the
cliche thing. I've heard it my whole life, you know,
I've heard it over and over and it just doesn't
sound good to me. What sounds good to me is
not talking down to them, but talking to them and

(23:03):
with them. So I think that you know, people will go,
you know, well, I love the stories Henry was telling tonight.
You know, I'm very appreciative and genuinely affectionate towards my bandmates. Yes,
we had some heart wrenching parts to the story, but

(23:30):
I never lost sight of who they were or what
they meant to me. We realized a dream together, we
thought for it, we realized it together. It was a
very life changing moment and a very important part of
making our life matter. And so you can't just write
those people off. And I treat those former bandmates with

(23:54):
respect on the mic, and I acknowledged the obvious contribution
they made, and I think that the sincerity and the
genuine appeal of the band rests in that rapport.

Speaker 1 (24:17):
So when you tell a story, I mean, there's two
ways to tell the story. Well, this is a song
written by my bandmate, it's on this album. We're going
to play it. There's another thing to say, Well, I
was sitting on the couch smoking a doobie. What kind
of stories do you tell live?

Speaker 2 (24:33):
Well, I go to the Two Nights in Nashville when
we opened for Leonard skinnern in the spring of nineteen
seventy four, and Ronnie going back to the hotel and
calling his manager and telling his manager that there was

(24:54):
a band on the show from Tampa trying to kick
their ass and they had themselves Freebird. That evening, unbeknownst
to us, was a life changing evening because the Leonard
Skinnyerd manager at that time had a lot of influence
and a lot of credibility, and his his effort on

(25:19):
our behalf was met with attention and ultimately a major
label record deal between Charlie Bruscoe and Alan Walden. We
were able to connect with people that had the power
to sign a band to a major label, and we

(25:41):
were really good. And those are the kind of stories that,
you know, kind of give the fans a bit more
of an understanding of how in the hell you got there,
because otherwise, you know, it's just like, I don't know,
we Clive came and saw us, you know, but Clive

(26:05):
did come and see us, But he came and saw
us because people told Clive we were good. You know,
the music business, you're only as good as someone that
has influence says you are. And if they say you're good,
then everyone believes it. But they don't say you're good,
then nobody cares. So here was this person saying they're

(26:28):
really good. And then you know, Bob, you know, Fiden
comes down and sees the band and goes back and says, yeah,
they're really good, Clive, they really are good. And so
Clive comes down and said, you know, Clive, you know,
the superlatives were, you know, flowing. And I was in

(26:51):
a room with a guy and all of a sudden,
from just being a dreamer and a hard worker, I
went to being a recording artist and a part of
the popular music landscape, and it was a big deal.

Speaker 1 (27:09):
Let's stay with Clive for a second. You know, you're
in with Clive in his second iteration, he's starting up Arista.
As you talk in the book, it's really the first
rock band on the label. Clive is notorious for messing
with the music. You mentioned a couple of things, him
wanting hits after the first album. What was your experience

(27:33):
with working with Clive.

Speaker 2 (27:37):
It was good, not to sound, you know, politically correct,
but it was good. He did not really lean on
us very much. He brought to my knowledge one song
and suggested we record it, and we did, and it
was a little left or right of center for us.

(28:09):
I'm trying to remember the name of the song. We
never performed it, you know, because it didn't become a
song that was noteworthy. The Santana story is a great
story but that wasn't our story. We were more of.
I mean, when you go back and listen to the

(28:31):
Outlaws albums and you go back and listen to the
Eels records, it becomes clear pretty quickly if you know
anything about songwriting, why they're a household name and we're
a cult bad. I'm not saying our songs weren't good,

(28:51):
but I'm saying they were different. Tequila Sunrise, you know,
is like if you like Pinacle, you know, I mean,
it's just it's served up, you know, with an umbrella
and a long straw. But Green Grass and High Tides

(29:14):
is a majestic instrumental phenomena that would burn the Eagles
completely to the ground in musical comparison, and so you know,
they were beautiful singers. Henley emerged as a major league

(29:38):
songwriter and a hugely, incredibly influential musical personality. I mean,
don his solo records to me were like Goga and
the Eagles to this day are a great band. I

(29:58):
mean they should be. They've got Vince Gill and Joe Walsh.
You know, shit, how do you go wrong there? I mean,
Vince Gill is a work of art, and you know,
and Joe Walsh's and Don Felder was a great part
of that band. I have a great part of that band.
Really help them. But you know, we were different that way,

(30:22):
and and people love us for not being the Eagles,
you know, they love us for being you know. Bob
Dylan has a quote that says, never never confused popular
with good. Just be yourself and write your quirky little

(30:44):
songs that don't have you know, universal thoughts and hooks.
But to you, you go out and you play that
hard and you play it with conviction, and people will
love it just on face value. It doesn't have to
be you know, steely Dan. It can be a simple

(31:08):
and maybe a little bit I mean, Leonard Skynard's a
great example of a band that had a very simple
musical personality. And yes they had Sweet Home Alabama, which
is in a you know, a beautiful musical moment for them.
But Marshall Tucker and even the Almand Brothers, even though

(31:33):
they had a hit on Ramblin Man, those bands, we
were sort of cast in the Almond Brothers, we were
all cast i think in a certain extent in their image.
We loved them and we were in awe of them.

(31:53):
And we respected them and we wanted to be them,
and we were, you know, in our own sol Way,
just incredibly enamored by who they were and what they
meant to us, especially you know from Live at the

(32:16):
film Wore and Eat a Peach and holy crap, I mean,
Brothers and Sisters was like even without Dwayne, I mean,
the band hit this thing and we were just absolutely

(32:37):
completely invested in what that was. We didn't mimic them,
but we really loved what they did. And the Marshall
Tucker band was a great band. Skinner was a great
band of Charlie Daniels was a great band. And that

(32:58):
was our peer group Leonard Skinner, Marshall Tucker, Charlie Daniels,
and god dare I say the Almend Brothers. That was
Southern rock. And the Outlaws were the last band to
enter that configuration. But the Outlaws earned their way in,

(33:21):
and I can tell you from experience. Every night used
to bring the whip down pretty good, and we would
get over on Skinnered, or we would get over on Tucker,
or we get over on Charlie. We held our own
every night, and our relationship with those people was genuine
and warm and very very memorable in a very nurturing

(33:48):
and positive way.

Speaker 1 (33:57):
Okay, you talk about interacting with the audience today, and
you talk about not being a cliche. You tour all
over this country, You've seen the people, You're where the
rubber meets the road. What can you tell us about
people in America today?

Speaker 2 (34:15):
Well, it's for me, it was, and I'm just going
to talk about my audience because I don't know everyone.
But not just for the Outlaws, but for Black Pop
or for the Henry Paul band, those people were very grounded,

(34:43):
earthy and traditional in their taste and in their behavior
and in their musical choices. Our audience for those and
even today for those bands, are people that are middle

(35:08):
class white American people of a normal, hard working background

(35:30):
of success and you know the whole from family to
growing up and getting a job and doing what you
knew you needed to do for your family. Our audience
is very Americana in a true sense of the word.

(35:54):
Blackhawk's audience is very young. The Outlaws audience is older.
But they both when you look at them, you know
they got jobs and lives. These are not people that
wander in, you know, like with nothing. They worked hard
and they have a life. I mean the clothes that

(36:17):
they wear, or the way that they interact with you,
or the affection that they are capable of giving you.
You get the impression that these are people that are
like you. They're like me.

Speaker 1 (36:32):
Okay, you say after the show, you interact with the audience.
I had, okay. So that's not a normal feature. You
don't come out to the merge table every night.

Speaker 2 (36:44):
We did for a long time. We did for a
long time.

Speaker 1 (36:48):
What changed.

Speaker 2 (36:50):
I'm seventy six. I just you know, I have done
this for a long time. I just said to myself,
when I'm done with the show, I'm good to come
out and say hello. I always give everybody with it,
but I'm not going to haul the band out and
sit at a table. We did that for our decade,

(37:13):
and it was really a good thing to do. It
was good for us to do that. It was a
very accessible part of who we were. But we're not
that in every true sense of the word. We're not
that altogether. These days, I get done with the show,
I go to the bus, I take off those damn

(37:37):
type pants and those cowboy groups. I put on my
shorts and I sit there and I tally up the score.
I think about how many people came. I think about
how the band felt and performed. I consider the reaction.

(37:57):
We got to the evening and we don't have to
ring it up in all categories. But a good night.
It's a good night. And I knew I did my job,
and to coin a phrase from a few good men,
I'd do it again. And we just got to the

(38:18):
point where we were okay to go to the bus
and just stop. And I always come off the bus
and go out and say hello and sign stuff. But
I don't haul the band out to the merch table.
I don't do meet and reads. I'm good.

Speaker 1 (38:40):
The nature of rock and roll is it's an evening event.
Let's just assume, for the sake of discussion, you get
off the stage at eleven, you do your tally. How
do you calm down and ultimately go to sleep.

Speaker 2 (38:53):
I just sit there. I sit there, and I call home.
I'm not one of those guys that can jump right
into bed after the show. I'm pretty ant, so I
sit there. I'm usually the last one of the last

(39:13):
band members to go to bed and one of the
first band members to get up, and in my own
home I'm usually the last person to go to sleep
in the first person, though I've always been like that.
I don't want to miss anything.

Speaker 1 (39:31):
Okay, since you're tallying up every night and you've been
doing this for a while. The Reformed Outlaws is the
audience going up, going down in number? Do you care
to whatever degree?

Speaker 2 (39:47):
Absolutely? Hey, you know, we don't have control over all
of that, but the Outlaws have built an incredible following
in the last fifteen years, bringing the band back from
where it was when I took over after Hughey's passing.
To bring the band back has been a very successful endeavor.

(40:14):
And we're not headlining arenas, we're in theaters, so it's
all relative relative to the band's place. The band's place
is a smaller sort of place than other bands. We

(40:36):
just were never that well known, and rightfully so, we
didn't have, you know, whatever it was that made Bruce
Springsteen what he is. What we had, and we loved

(40:57):
who we were and what we have, but it was
different hours and I mean, I'm thankful that we have
what we have. I don't look at it and go, gosh,
I sure wish we were, you know, at Madison Square
Garden tonight instead of you know, BB Kinks, I'm I'm

(41:25):
I think smart enough to realize that whatever it is
you have you're thankful for. You don't sit and dream
of more. I'm very happy with what we have and
we've built the band back up and they're doing good numbers.

(41:46):
That's why the Outlaws are out there with thirty eight
special in Kansas on a really cool tour in America
this year. That's why the Outlaws get the phone call
to come out and do the Leonard Skinner tour in Canada.
The Outlaws are one of the great values in the
music business. People at aeg Or Live Nation they come

(42:08):
out and see the Outlaws and go, wow, that's absolutely incredible,
and you can get them for a song. It's not
like these gaudy numbers that these people are hanging out there.
You can buy the band relative comparatively inexpensively, and they
put a really respectable face on the start of a show.

(42:31):
There's no original members in the band coming out with
knee braces, no shorts. You know, it's a very respectable
part of a two or three acts show. We get
after it. We still show some nights. We just say

(42:52):
that Kansas sounds incredible. How many original members that I
don't give it. They say in Great thirty eight Special,
different kind of band. It's more of a pop band.
They sound great. Don Barnes has that band in really
good shape. I've got the Outlaws in really good shape. Kansas.

(43:17):
I'm not sure who's running the show there, but they're
in really good shape. That three act show is one
of the greatest things out there because Kansas is not
a Southern rock band. Really, thirty eight Special is somewhat
of a hybrid, So you get a really great musical

(43:40):
evening and all three of those bands are playing at
the top of their game.

Speaker 1 (43:46):
Okay, in the book, they're ups and downs before the
Outlaws make it, members are coming, members are leaving. The
Outlaws have their Heyday than their Denu mall, and it
seems like no one has any money. So how did
that work out? Did you ever make any money of
the Outlaws?

Speaker 2 (44:07):
No, not the kind of money that I've heard about
people making. Let me say that there are five members
of the Outlaws. Wikipedia is a manipulated storyline. It's not.
It has nothing to do with who the Outlaws are.

(44:30):
The Outlaws were Huey Thomason, Henry Paul, Billy Jones, Monte Yojo,
and Frank o'keeth. Those five people were the Outlaws. There
was a band called the Outlaws that those people were
in and out of before it wasn't the Outlaws. The
Outlaws really weren't the Outlaws until nineteen seventy two when

(44:57):
we put the band together by seven. It was a
five piece group. Had nothing to do with the bar
band or the fraternity you know, high school band that
had that name. It was those five people who wrote
and recorded songs, original music that went out as the

(45:20):
Outlaws and got the record deals. So anything other than that,
people that came later the band was, in my opinion, abused,
just treated very cavalier and very reckless. And that you

(45:41):
have this long list of names that people that have
been in the Outlaws. It's embarrassing to me to a
certain extent because the five people that got the band
their deal and went out and recorded those first three records,
that was the musical personality of the band. All the
other things were sort of made to pet your weight

(46:05):
the band's career, and fair enough, it did what it
was supposed to do. But I was a party to
making some decisions that were looking back, not good decisions.
We had some problems with Frank O'Keefe, the substance issues,

(46:30):
and there were things that he did that were not
in his best interest you put it that way. But
we could have helped him. We could have said, Frank,
you need help, you need to stop, you need to
do this. We can't be a band without you. We

(46:53):
need you. We didn't know that. We thought, well, if
Frank was going to go off the rail, then we
go get somebody else to take his place and we'd
be fine. But it wasn't fine. It wasn't fine. The
person that we got to take his place was good.
It wasn't what we were and we didn't know that.

(47:16):
We didn't know that. If I had known what I
know now, I would have worked a lot harder with
my friend Frank to make sure he stayed in the
band of the band stayed hole. And I think if
people saw the importance of the original members of the

(47:37):
band for being inherent to the band's personality and success,
that we would have all tried harder. We wouldn't have
been so quick to cut and run. And I love
the way it feels to be in a band with
people for a long period of time. It's kind of

(47:58):
like a marriage or a relationship of any substance, you know,
like your your friends. I don't know who your friends are.
I'm sure there's people in your life that you know
that you love for being your friend, and that feeling
is very, very very important. And you know, the band,

(48:25):
it would kind of approach a certain level and then
it would kind of come apart self somewhat self destruct
and once that happened, it was hard to get it back.
I think the people that really did well in the
music business, and I'm going to use like led Zeppelin

(48:47):
for an example, they monetize their popularity and their personality.
Little Feet probably not so much. Does that mean little
Feet isn't important? No, they're very important. Does that mean
they made a lot of money. I don't know, but
probably not not. In the scheme. You know, Toto, Everyone

(49:10):
loved Toto and respected them. They're incredible musicians. Did Toto
go out and make enough money to retire on and
walk away from you know? Probably not. So it's just
kind of the luck of the draw and the wisdom

(49:31):
to see the value and the loyalty.

Speaker 1 (49:42):
Okay, you've been in a number of good iterations. You've
been in the Outlaws, You've been in Black Hawk. Are
there any royalties coming and then Henry Paul ban any
royalties coming in from any of that, Or you've got
to work for a living.

Speaker 2 (49:55):
Got to work for a living. There are royalties just
going to the grocery store. You better have either a
good job or some money coming in from somewhere. The
Blackmawk thing was my first experience with commercial success. It

(50:15):
was like commercial success on a grand scale. The Outlaws
had gold records. We didn't have platinum Alvens. We had
gold records. Blackhawk had multi platinum albums. Was success on

(50:35):
a level like I had never seen or heard, and
there was money in that. There was money. There still is.
The advent of nineties country and the popularity of what
that represents is very, very rewarding financially compared to what

(50:56):
though Blake Shelton, what do you think he gets to night? Yeah,
you know, maybe in three or four shows he makes
what I make gross in a year. But I don't
wake up in the morning on God, I wish I
was Blake. I kind of try and make the most

(51:17):
of what I have and find success in a form
that is personal to me. I can't you know, Ronnie
Dunn Brooks and Dunn, Alan Jackson, Alan Jackson, I remember

(51:38):
when he made a pub deal, sold his publishing for
like fourteen million dollars. Well, that ought to be enough
in and of itself to get you to the other side.
I have a beautiful family and my health. I have
a really nice group of people to play with on

(51:58):
the road. Lucky as a pig and poop to have
one hundred and twenty shows a year, and to go
out and make a pretty good living. I feel lucky
to have that. I don't. I don't look around and
go crap. I wish I was making, you know, three
or four hundred thousand dollars a night, you know, And

(52:21):
I don't know what that means. I don't. Bob Billen's
got a lot of money. He doesn't look like it's
done him a whole lot of good, you know. And
I love Bob Byllan, but you know, I mean he
doesn't walk around in Pierre card En suits. I mean
he's a scruffy guy. That so what does it take?

(52:42):
It doesn't take much fun.

Speaker 1 (52:45):
Okay. Something that is said more directly in your book,
which you reference earlier. You're basically fired squeezed out of
the outlaws. In addition, once you we join him, uie
does it again?

Speaker 2 (53:03):
Right?

Speaker 3 (53:05):
How did you deal with all that?

Speaker 2 (53:09):
Well, there's a The second time didn't mean anything to me.
I was good to go. I didn't you know there
the band business let me trying to just put it
into what I considered to be proper perspective. The band
business is always leveraged by your perceived value to the group.

(53:38):
And Jewey saw himself for who he was in that band.
He's saying, there goes another love song. He's sang green
Grass and high Tide, and he's sang Ghost Riders in
the Sky. And I don't know what Hugh he was thinking,
but I have every reason I believe he probably thought

(53:58):
I'm pretty much the band and I don't need anyone else.
But that wasn't true. But but when that mindset sort
of takes over and you stop being a band with Henry,
or a band with Billy, or a band like I

(54:19):
said with Frank, you know, you start to show yourself
to your audience to be less, not more. And if
those decisions are financial, and they very well may have been,

(54:40):
so you get more. What's one hundred percent of nothing?
You know what's twenty percent of a lot? So I
you know I in both cases, when I was showing
the door the first time, it was a signific I
can blow to the band because I had helped get

(55:04):
us to where we were. Was not just a musical journey,
but it was a journey based on knowing where you
were going. I mean for me to have helped and
had a hand in the Outlaws, Henry Paul band, the
Outlaws again and Black I'll go out and get major

(55:26):
label deals. Hmm, gee, Henry, what did you do in
the band? I was a good salesman. I could sell it,
and I looked like a duck, and I had web feet,
and I quacked when I spoke, and people believed in me.
They kept giving me opportunities because I was believable. And

(55:50):
at one point, you know, the Outlaws manager said, Chewi,
you need to call up Henry because this band's going
to crack and it's just coming apart and things aren't
working in You and Hank were great back in the day,
and you just need to pick up the phone and
get Henry back in the band and Okay, let's do that.

(56:12):
And then by nineteen eighty eight we were having a
lot of fun. We were playing to small audiences. We
knew we weren't going to come back to some grand career,
but I was having fun. I had the checkbook. Huey
and I were making really good money. The band was
being paid a very very respectable wage, and we were

(56:36):
riding around the country, playing for fifteen hundred people and
having a ball. But you know when Hue when Hughey said, well,
I see what Henry's doing, I see how we're I
want more, or maybe I think it's good. Take it,

(56:58):
because I'm going to Nashville and I'm going to do
something different and I'll see your ass later. And I'm
good And with my sixty five sting ray cruising down
the back alley in Nashville, Tennessee, coming up on Hughey
standing out there one day, you know, in a letter
skinnered recording session. It didn't hurt my feelings, you know,

(57:22):
to feel good about myself and the effort that I
was able to create and show for my hard work.
And so I don't know, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (57:37):
Okay, when you are fired a did you see it? Coming,
which it sounds like you didn't be in retrospect, because
I'm sure you've gone over this a million times in
your life. Certainly at the time, was there anything that
you could have played different or was it inevitable?

Speaker 2 (57:57):
I think, first of all, I didn't it coming, uh,
But I wasn't surprised. I mean, I kind of knew
who I was dealing with all along. It was never,
you know, a family environment, and the band was always
somewhat of a business. But I think that it was

(58:28):
so painful to me and such a such an ego
destroying moment, and in such a a bitter, hurtful place

(58:49):
that I was not used to being in that my
immediate reaction was put a new group together, go get
another major label deal, find a really a good friend

(59:10):
to help you with your career, and get back in
the game. That's what I did, and I found help
out there from people that were capable of helping me.

Speaker 1 (59:24):
Okay, you are in the Outlaws. I had seen the
Outlaws in their heyday opening for the Stones. They had
big success, certainly with high Tides and green Grass, but
it was a relatively faceless band. There was not somebody
who stuck out in front. You're now out of the band.

(59:45):
You were in a successful band. How do you convince
Atlantic to give you a deal?

Speaker 2 (59:52):
Well, I think my role as the frontman for the
band first and foremost, and I think that my artistic recovery,
writing songs like gray Ghost, writing songs like so Long,
writing you know, Hallmark songs that when A and R

(01:00:14):
directors listened to them, or executive vice presidents from the
label listened to him, they said, we loved your in
the band, We loved the outlaws, we loved you. I
was somewhat of a more visible member of the group
because I fronted the band and they wanted they were
willing to support me. Michael Kleffner was the was the

(01:00:40):
vice president of national promotion at Arista, and went out
and promoted the band at rock oriented radio, album oriented
rock radio and got green Grass on the air, and
he and I became really close friends. It was clear
to me that it wasn't just about the band. It
was clear to me that it was about the promotion

(01:01:02):
department at Arista and the band and the record we made,
and those people that went out and killed for us.
So Michael left Arista and got the executive vice presidential
chair at Atlantic Records under Jerry Greenberg. And when I

(01:01:23):
left the Outlaws, Michael said, if you need a budget
to record demos, let me know. I would like to
help you. It wasn't a lot of money. Five six
seventy eight thousand dollars. We went in and cut ten sides,
brought him to Michael, brought him to Ton Journam, brought

(01:01:44):
him to John Kalodner sat down, Yes, we want to
sign this band. We loved the Outlaws and we love you.
Henry and Joe Sullivan, you know who managed Charlie Daniels
said I would love to hand your career. I think
the world of view. I mean, these people were close

(01:02:05):
to me because I invested a lot of myself in
these relationships. And they said, absolutely, you're on Atlantic Sound
seventy manages your career, and Paragon is still going to
represent you in the live music area and you're good
to goud Us. Oh okay, Now we're out in the

(01:02:28):
road with Charlie and skinnered and we're back. Not skinned
they were gone, but we're out in a road and Tucker,
we're back with familiar faces doing what we've always done
and it kind of came. It was kind of coinciding
with the decline of southern rock. There was a fad,

(01:02:49):
a musical moment for that genre, and it hit a
high water market started to evaporate. Molly Hatchett had come
onto the scene late in the in the game and
with a significant amount of commitment from Epic, did very well.

(01:03:12):
But the Henry palmband for me was that was was
a I'm looking for the word, but it was. It
gave me my self respect back. It gave me, you know,
my my my opinion of positive opinion of myself, because

(01:03:34):
honestly it was it was a hard thing to come
back from. And uh, you know, without the help and
support of people that were my friends, and without my
hard work and focus, I'd have done what Frank did,

(01:03:55):
and that would start a painting company in clear Water
and paint houses. I didn't do that. I fought back
and got back in the game.

Speaker 1 (01:04:07):
Okay, what was the decision to call it the Henry
Paul Band.

Speaker 2 (01:04:11):
Oh Jesus, we just couldn't. First of all, the Charlie
Daniels band, the Henry Paul band. You know, Joe Sullivan
was very much inclined to want to hang my name
on the band. I looked for a name. We all
looked for a name. We couldn't find a name. I

(01:04:31):
was signed to the record deal. The members of the
group were signed as well, but it was my band,
and we just couldn't come up with anything better. So
we just said, well, let's just call it the Henry
Paul band.

Speaker 1 (01:04:51):
I doesn't sound like you were happy.

Speaker 2 (01:04:53):
Well I wasn't happy, but I accepted it. And along
with that came a little bit more you know, weight pressure. Uh.
I just kind of went along with it and decided,
what the hell difference does it make if we're you know,

(01:05:13):
the Great Ghost Album has stood a very very significant
positive test of time. And while it wasn't a record
that you know, set records at the retail level, it
was a very respectable record and over the years has

(01:05:35):
risen in the ranks of people's opinion. And I was
ready to lock asses with everybody. I mean, I wanted
to go on tour with the Outlaws and you know,
and steal the show. I mean, I you know, I was.

(01:05:56):
I was hurt and angry and very ambitious and I
wanted to get that and you know, it was it
was a very significant success for me to go to

(01:06:18):
Atlantic and to go on the road again and to
put myself back in a place where I wanted to be.
It was a big deal.

Speaker 1 (01:06:38):
Okay, those are great achievements. Atlantic sticks with you for
four albums. There's not a breakout hit. What was the
experience of being in Atlantic. Were they always on your side?
Were they saying, hey, you know, we'll make another record
but this time.

Speaker 2 (01:06:57):
No, they were on my side. I mean I knew
every regional promotional director. I knew everybody the label. I'd
go up to the label when I was in New York.
You know, Claudner and I were friends. I mean, John
and I were friends when he was a journalist at
the Inquirer. That's how we met. And those people were

(01:07:20):
definitely pulling for me, and they knew that I hadn't
found commercial success, but obviously they were unwilling to just
toss me aside. And this was after Michael was gone.
The first three records, they were all uniquely different records,
but they all were very good in what they were.

(01:07:42):
The third record, especially by the time I made the
last record for Atlantic, it was pretty much over and
I was playing, you know, some different game. MTV had
come into its own and we were just trying to
find a way to be in the on the landscape.

(01:08:02):
But it wasn't meant to be and it and it
didn't do anything to help me. And it was a
very hard lesson to learn about try and be yourself
and live and die by that and don't try and
you know, be something that you're not. And that was

(01:08:24):
a big Artistically, that was a big lesson for me
to learn. But I don't know that record has things
about it that are are good. But the first album,
the third album, and to a certain extent, the second album,
all those records were really well written and played. And

(01:08:48):
I got to be who I wanted to be. I
got to stay in a business I want to be.
Our tour. It wasn't a whole lot of money, but
there was money enough for us to make a living,
and we toured heavily and I got to stay in
the game.

Speaker 1 (01:09:05):
Claudner ultimately goes to Geffen. Claudner is a guy with opinions.
Did you converse with him? Did he give you input?

Speaker 2 (01:09:15):
Yes? A lot, But you know, John was good. John
was helped make some very good decisions for me and
John tried really hard to help me. Uh but you know,

(01:09:42):
when John went to Geffen and cozy it up with
the people at Aerosmith, you know, and started wearing the
white suit, it just was a different version of him.
He and I were really good friends for a lo time.
When I would go to La myself, John Klaudner, Mary Turner,

(01:10:09):
Sam Bellamy and Paraquak Kelly, those people we were in separate.
Pat Kelly, we were inseparable, though we would do everything together.
We'd go out together, we'd go to bars and drink,
we'd have That was my socials core in Los Angeles.
And Jim Ladd lured me up to his house on

(01:10:33):
the hill with a stupid railroad car and I did
an interview that I deeply regret. We got to drinking
in the afternoon. But in La John was a friend
and we just were really close. And Pat Kelly and
I we still remain friends. He's had serious health issues.

(01:10:56):
I feel bad for Pat because you know, has been
not well. I still talk to Sam every now and then.
Mary's gone. She she married.

Speaker 1 (01:11:19):
Up, although now they're both gone. In any event, you've
got a family, you've got kids, you're done with Atlantic.
What goes through your head.

Speaker 2 (01:11:34):
Well, going back to the Outlaws, there was a feeling
of success in going back, like being in Like do
you want to come back in the band? Because I
think it'd be better if you were in the group.
That was helpful to me from the standpoint of my
self esteem. For the first two or three years, from

(01:12:01):
like eighty three eighty four, it was a little bit.
It wasn't what dreams were made of. We were flying,
we were renting cars. It wasn't fun for me. There
was substance issues, which there normally are, and we hadn't

(01:12:24):
gotten past that. On my part, you know, I was
not wholesale invested in what that was. I always kept
my distance to a certain extent from that. But at
one point I fired our manager slash road manager. He

(01:12:54):
was a great guy, and he was an agent at
Paragon who got in our corner and really tried to
help us. But he was but he was expensive and
when I asked him, you know, the try looking for
something else to do. I got control of the band

(01:13:17):
financially and I turned it around. I turned it around
for Hueye and myself and I had a lot of
fun In nineteen eighty five, six eighty seven. We cut
that record for Spencer Crawfer, and you know, it was
an odd record. We kept trying to get into the

(01:13:40):
record business, but the more we tried, the more it
became clear that we weren't going to come back and
have a new life. But I had a really lot
of fun touring around the United States playing smaller venues,

(01:14:00):
and we had a good band. I bought a conversion band,
and Hughie and I the band, the five people in
the band, and the road manager, this nice Jewish boy
from Long Island who I had shown the Ropes to
and he was a really sweet and very hard working guy,

(01:14:24):
and I loved him. He was our road manager. And
the six of us were traveling this in this conversion ban.
It was great. We booked shows they were all within
one hundred and fifty two three hundred miles, and we'd
stay overnight at the hotel. We'd get up in the morning.

(01:14:46):
We put our suitcase in the conversion band. We're all
six of us by land. We drive to the next
town and there was a rider of fifteen foot rider
cube truck with our gear in it, and there were
two or three crew members and they would leave and
they would go do their thing, and we would show
up in time to check into the hotel for me

(01:15:09):
to go put on my running shorts and go run
thirty or forty minutes and come back and shower to
a sound check, eat my stupid food that I was
eating back then, and go put on a great show,
go back to the hotel, go to bed, get up
the next morning. It was just great. We had it,

(01:15:29):
I had it figured out, and we were doing good.
Hue and I were making a pretty good living. And
that lasted from eighty six, eighty five, eighty six, eighty six,
eighty seven, eighty eight. At the end of the New
Year's Eve of nineteen eighty eight was my last show

(01:15:52):
in the band, and I had talked to Hughie and
he said, I, I would really like to go it alone.
And I said, well, Buster, if that's what you want,
I'm good with that. I get it, and I'm good
to go. Because I knew I was going to go

(01:16:13):
to Nashville. I had a friend of mine in my ear,
and I thought, well, if you want the band by yourself,
you can have it, and I'm happy to leave. And
so I left. One of the other guys in the
band left as well, and Hughey struck out on his own,

(01:16:36):
and like from nineteen eighty nine through nineteen ninety four
or five was a pretty difficult stretch for the Outlaws.
From what I hear numbers, the whole thing got really
a bit ugly. But I went back back to Tampa.

(01:17:01):
I took the conversion vand I sold it. It was
an immaculate condition. I bought a SUV. I bought a
couple of properties in Tampa, and I renovated them and
turned them over for a pretty good profit. Started to
commute to Nashville and write songs. I drive to Nashville,

(01:17:23):
seven hundred miles ten hours. I'd pull up to my
manager's house in Nashville, a guy by the name of
Rick Alter. And I get up Monday or Tuesday morning,
and I'd booked four or five writing appointments for the week.

(01:17:44):
And I come back Friday, and I get in my
truck and I drive home, and I had a little
home studio, and i'd go up and I had demo
the three or four or five songs. Two weeks later,
I'd ride back and I just kept doing that. I
would make twenty trips a year and I compile this

(01:18:10):
body of work and Rick played it for Dubois, who
had just opened RAST in Nashville. He loved it. He said,
I love Hank's voice. And so he took me around
to the publishers and said, I'm going to sign Henry.

(01:18:31):
He wants it needs a pub deal. So I signed
with EMI and they gave me, you know, six figures
over three years, enough for me to live on day.
My bills continue to develop my career, and Blackhawk was formed.
And I'll be damned if I wasn't back on aris
To Records with a really really strong new album that

(01:18:58):
sold a couple of millions copies.

Speaker 1 (01:19:03):
Okay for the last handful of years, everybody's going to Nashville.
How did you know to go to Nashville? Thirty five years.

Speaker 2 (01:19:11):
Ago, I was at the Florida State Fair. It's in Tampa,
and my then wife and I and the kids were there,
were you know, kids were there. I saw these people
standing in this really long line. They were waiting to
get into the grandstand. The jugs were playing, and as

(01:19:35):
I walked by this line of people, I kept looking
at them and I thought to myself, they looked like fans.
To me, those people look like people that would that
came to the Outlaws show or came to Henry Paul
Bancho Goos. And I always had loved country music and
was more or less seen as the country music influence

(01:19:57):
in the band. And I had a songwriting partner that
told me, he said, HENK, if you just declare that
you're a country music singer and go to Nashville, you
can do this. So I kind of took his word
for it. I took my own sort of instincts, my

(01:20:17):
own work ethic, and my own salesmanship. I went to
Nashville and started this would be nineteen ninety ninety one,
started to work towards becoming a recording artist again. And

(01:20:38):
in my drive back and forth from Tampa to Nashville,
I'd passed these silver eagles going up and down the
road and I just looked at those buses and I
just dreamed getting back on and being bad. So Dan

(01:21:02):
Stevenson and Dave Robbins and I formed the group. Tim
was a songwriting partner of theirs, and they came to
him one day and said, we want to start a
band or something. What do you think And he said well,
I'm working with Henry. I think if you guys want

(01:21:22):
to work with Hank, he's got a great voice, and
I think that there might be something good come from it.
And we all saw that as a very real opportunity.
We knew that if we could focus on doing what
we were asked to do and do it right, we
could have what we wanted. And we did. We got
what we wanted and he I talked to Tim the

(01:21:47):
other day and I said, you know, Tim, I always
think about you, and I always thank you for the
opportunity you gave me late in my life, as I
was forty three years old and people that age didn't
get record deals. And he said, well, Henry, I know
what you're saying, but he said, I got to tell

(01:22:07):
you you made good on it. You made good on
the opportunity you would give it. And I thought about that,
and I thought, well, you're right, we did. I mean,
think about if you're a record executive and you've got
Alan Jackson Brooks and Dunn Blackhawk, a Diamond Rio and

(01:22:27):
Pam Tillis all selling platinum and multi platinum records, what
do you think the bonus structure was probably through the
roof so they were rolling. We had careers. You know,
we were on the road making a living playing live shows.
I mean, I think it's important to recognize a performer's

(01:22:51):
place in the mix. You might make a lot of
money if you've become a household name. I mean, you
have to go out and really work hard for it
and leave your home. But these guys in the record
business were businessmen making money, a lot of money, a
lot more money than we ever made. But we were

(01:23:13):
like these, you know, artistically inclined dreamers that could not
give up the idea of being a musical personality that
people loved. And that was the that was the attraction,
and that's what we did. But the Heiress, the thing

(01:23:35):
in Nashville was huge to me, it was huge.

Speaker 1 (01:23:39):
So what was different about the Nashville country business as
opposed to the New York LA rock business.

Speaker 2 (01:23:46):
Well, the New York l A rock business, you were
so far away from it. I mean, I'm a earl again.
Ovid Henri go in his office, put my record on
the turntable and put the needle down. You know, that's

(01:24:07):
a good soul Madri. I liked that song. Yeah, that
was it. That was it. That was it. That was
my rapport with Arma. You know that once a year,
I go in the office and I play my record.
You know, Jerry Greenberg and I were pretty friendly, you know,

(01:24:30):
on a business level. He would invite me to go
fishing in his birtroom and we would you know, we
would do things like that. But with Ariston Nashville, it
was like now Tim and I. He runs the label.
He and I are the same age, were the same age.

(01:24:51):
We have so many like minded life experiences. And he's
running the label and I'm out promoting my career at radio.
He's paying for it. And radio decides they want to

(01:25:11):
play our record, and Arista they don't make them play
in my record, but they're very they're very convincing, and
they get our record played. And now Huey Thomason, who

(01:25:36):
was the voice of the Outlaws, I'm the voice of Blackhawk.
Now I'm in the you know, the catbird seat a
little bit, and it doesn't feel bad. And I have
to say that during those year or two of going
back and forth and being in my home studio, to

(01:26:00):
my credit, I learned a lot about how to sing
as a singer. I learned a lot about myself it
was so important. It was the difference between success and
beg and so I learned a lot late in the
game about things that mattered, and it came at the

(01:26:28):
right time, and it was very important from the standpoint
of my success. I also knew a lot about the
politics of writing songs with other people. Jim Peterick and
I wrote a lot together. John Townsend and I wrote
a lot together. I went to National Van Stevenson and

(01:26:48):
I wrote a lot together. You get in a room
with somebody and you don't want to be an ogre.
You're trying to collaborate, and I learned a lot about
how to do that. It was an enormous learning experience.

Speaker 1 (01:27:14):
Okay, over these decades, do you ever think of going
straight giving up?

Speaker 2 (01:27:24):
I thought you meant in a sexual sort of way.
There was a moment when if my dad had asked me, Henry,

(01:27:44):
I need your help on the farm. I want to
retire and want I need help. If I think there
was a moment where if you had asked me to
do that, I might have done it because I was
so emotionally invested in our family farm. But he never asked,

(01:28:04):
and so I never had the opportunity to do that.
That was the only thing that could have possibly taken
me out of the chair and put me in a
different walk of life. Other than that, I was. I

(01:28:27):
don't know why, but I think it was just my
artistic inclination to want to succeed at something like being
a recording artist, because very early on, my dream was
to be a recording artist. That's all I wanted to be.
And when I got to be that, then came the

(01:28:50):
commercial gauntlet that allows you to continue to do and
be that. And I navigated that with a great deal
of finesse and forethought.

Speaker 1 (01:29:07):
Let's stop there for a second. The finesse, the forethought.
You talk about being a good salesman. Can you expand
upon those things? How exactly do you do it?

Speaker 2 (01:29:18):
Well? I just thought my vision of a creative entity,
my vision of what I saw well I went towards
as an idea was valid, it was appealing, It looked
and sounded good. The people I surrounded myself were there

(01:29:43):
to help me get to where I wanted to go.
We were musical partners, but they were asked to be
my partner in these bands because I needed them, they
needed me, And whether it was successful on one level,

(01:30:09):
not so successful on another, or ultimately very successful. They
all had very visible and tangible sort of destinations. They
were a place that I knew I was going and
what it was going to look and sound like.

Speaker 1 (01:30:26):
And okay, but on a one on one basis, I mean,
some people get them in a room, they close you. Okay,
was it? You obviously had to convey this vision and
convince people to work with you. So how did you
find that you did it? Was it about Okay, let's

(01:30:49):
go off for a couple of beers, I got a
story to tell you, or get me in the room
with a guy can say yes, I'll put on my
show and it'll go.

Speaker 2 (01:30:58):
I think it was all. It was connected like a railroad,
like a train. My role in the Outlaws provided for
me the opportunity for my role in the Henry Paul Band.
My role in the Outlaws and my role in the
Henry Paul Band provided for me an opportunity to go

(01:31:18):
to Nashville and to be accepted. I'm writing with Henry
Paul from the Outlaws. You remember the Outlaws?

Speaker 1 (01:31:26):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:31:27):
I love the alas I'm writing with Henry today. Well,
you can't just go in and write with this person.
They got to see something in the way of promise.
So I showed at every turn promise. Henry's really good,
he's smart. Henry's smart. He's really smart. He's good. You're

(01:31:51):
gonna like him. He's a really great guy. And man,
what he's thinking is pretty cool. And you know, either
you're onto some thing or your jacket, you know. And
I felt like I always could see it. I always
saw what it was going to become, and it became that.
And that goes for the Outlaws, because before I was

(01:32:15):
involved with that band, there was no anything to see.
It became what I saw. People might not like the
sound of what that says, but it's absolutely true because
I knew where we were going, and Huey was a
big part of it. Billy was a big part of it.

(01:32:37):
I was a big part of it, and Frank and
Monty were a big part of it. But I could
take the band with my country rock personality at a
time when that was really important and really happening. The
Outlaws adapted, adopted that sound, and me with my stupid

(01:32:57):
cowboy hat became a part of the band's image and
everybody in the band started wearing a hat and God
dang it, Bobby darned if we're not on tour with
Marshall Tucker. It was just, you know, a social and
artistic sort of vision that took you down that road

(01:33:19):
with cowboy boots and songs, country rock songs, Stay with Me,
song in the Breeze, Knoxville Girl, you know, green Grass
and high Tides, there Goes Another love song. Those were
songs that cast a musical personality and a large part

(01:33:43):
of that came from me, and a large part of
my relationship with Hue was at the heart of it,
and his relationship as a guitar player with Billy. But
when I sat down and played my country stuff, Hwey
sat down went and it was like he knew what
I was saying, and he and I could be in

(01:34:05):
a room with two guitars and people will go, yeah,
that's great. And that's where it was, and that's how
we got where we were going because we were one
plus one equals three. The band was just really good.
We got lucky putting the people together. Hue and I
sang good together. Billy came into the band, and suddenly

(01:34:28):
we had this guy that could sing like Randy Meisner
and there was the three part harmony. It was intact,
and Frank was a good singer, but he didn't participate
in the vocal part of the band that much. But
it was all just luck, and it was all just
being able to see it and make that.

Speaker 1 (01:34:53):
Okay. When the Outlaws start to become successful, you get
married and start having children. Was there anything in your
mind saying, man, this is a whole different road. Is
this going to impact my career, I'm going to have responsibilities?
What was going through your head?

Speaker 2 (01:35:13):
I never I never planned any of that. You know.
I married a girl who was really supportive of me
and good to me and who I was really good

(01:35:35):
friends with. And our decision to have a family wasn't
We didn't sit down and say you want to start
a family. No, it kind of came like, hey, i'm pregnant.
Oh that's great, great, let's have a kid. What you know, Uh, yeah,
I'm good. Hey i'm pregnant again. Well let's have another one.

(01:36:01):
You know. But I don't think it had anything that
I love kids. I'm seventy six, I have a four
year old is right downstairs. When I get done with
this interview, I'm gonna go down here. He's gonna wear
me out. But that's just how I am. I I
love that about my life. Some people don't have children.

(01:36:25):
You know, my career has been very difficult to my family.
And I was I quoted you a lyric from a song.
I was going to quote you a lyric from another song.
The fast life and the music it's just a grim

(01:36:46):
disguise for the heartache and the fear of growing old
without the ones that mean the most. It makes you
realize that you are the one that's left out in
the cold. You chase the dream are and you try
and become somebody so hard that you wake up one
day and your marriage is not happening, and your kids

(01:37:09):
don't know. You know, I never let that happen. But
I know that I missed a lot, and I know
it was damaging to my children. It was damaging to
my marriage. And being privileged in a certain sort of

(01:37:30):
way makes it easy to make bad decisions.

Speaker 1 (01:37:36):
You had a challenged child you write about in the
book How'd you cope with it?

Speaker 2 (01:37:39):
Well, she was not death but hearing impaired, and it's
an invisible handicap and it doesn't show itself like a
kid in a wheelchair or a kid with a cane
that can't see. It's a very invisible hand cat, but

(01:38:00):
it's a very painful one because when you're deaf, you
don't get the subtleties of the English language, like oh
you look great today, I do you know? You don't
hear the inflection, you don't hear the insinuation. You take

(01:38:22):
things more on face favor. This girl got hurt. It
hurt me to see it happen, and I, along with
her mom and her sister, you know, tried real hard
to be there for her. And I wrote a song

(01:38:43):
for her on my I'm trying to think of it.
I don't know which record is on, but I wrote
a song called Circle of Silence, and I remember going
out into the studio to sing the lead vocal and
breaking down in the vocal booth because it was such

(01:39:04):
an emotional thing and I was able to spit it out.
But I got to the end and I said, well,
I'll pull it together, Let's try it again. And the
guy that was produced in the records said, no, I
think we want to keep that. I think we want
to keep that. He heard what I was doing, he

(01:39:27):
felt what I was feeling, and he decided to go
with what I and I think it was a great
decision at the moment. In the moment, I thought, well,
let me have another No, I don't think we need
to do that again. So there was that part of
my role as a parent that was very demanding and

(01:39:51):
took a lot of empathy and a lot of commitment
to this person who she and I are tight. You know,
we're we're close. I'm close with all my children. But
I did miss a lot by trying to, you know,
go on a road being an entertainer. Right. One of

(01:40:14):
the reasons I think I want out now is that
because I have a four year old and a ten
year old, you don't want to just keep doing the
same thing over and over and expect different results. I mean,
this is an opportunity for me in the late stage
of my life. How many years do I have left? Ten?
I don't know how old you are, but we're not

(01:40:36):
going to live forever.

Speaker 1 (01:40:38):
Oh most people our age. I'm a little younger than you,
but I'm in my seventies too, And it's like people
you know are not aware. Oh yeah, they think you'll
live forever. Nobody's going to live forever, and I want
to see it coming. It's like I want to prepare
and do the right things a bit of being supported.

Speaker 2 (01:40:52):
And it's not just monetary, it's emotional. Like my four
year old started school this year. He's in pre kindergarten.
This morning, my wife and I drove the kids to
school and we pull up and my ten year old

(01:41:12):
jumps out and he's gone like the wind. Four year
old it's out, starts walking down the sidewalk in his
There's this lady that helps the kids that you get
to the class and she comes out and she holds
his hand and he's walking away with a backpack on,

(01:41:34):
and he looks over his right looks over his right shoulder.
It was hard and it was really good, and I

(01:41:57):
want that had enough of this? I think I want that.

Speaker 1 (01:42:09):
Okay, you get divorced, you get remarried. After a long
period of time, you talk about the first time we
went over having kids. Now you're older, was this a
conscious decision? How did you decide to have kids? Lead
in life?

Speaker 2 (01:42:25):
Well, if you get involved with a younger person. It
was always my opinion that if she wanted to have children,
was not my right or role to say no, if
you want to have kids, let's have kids. It's the

(01:42:46):
same way the first time around. You I'm pregnant, right,
So it was a decision to have a family. These
boys that I have when I'm gone, they're going to
be really good for their mom. They're going to be
good to and they're going to take care of her.

Speaker 1 (01:43:02):
How about the fact that you're not going to be here?
Is that weigh on your mind at all?

Speaker 2 (01:43:07):
It does? It? Does? You know? I mean, because I'm
on the clock more so than I would have been
if I was in my thirties. And you know, I
had these three kids with my first wife, and I
was deeply involved with them in their childhood, in their
teenage years. You know, I my wife and I at

(01:43:31):
that time went are separate ways. I said, I'm going
to Nashville. I've got to go. Well, she wasn't quite
so sure, you know, because there was no guarantee, and
we just kind of went in two separate directions, and
the kids got roughed up from it. It was not

(01:43:54):
easy or good thing to be a party to there again.
You know, God, dang it, I'm gonna go be this person.
I gotta go be I gotta go road in Nashville,
Go Go go. Meanwhile, everything at the house is changing

(01:44:18):
without you.

Speaker 1 (01:44:29):
Okay, there's a period of years between ending it with
your first wife and meeting your second wife. Let's be clear,
you're a rock and roll star today. Everybody has a camera.
But when things were good for you, you go out on
the road, You're drinking, you're drugging, having sex. To what
degree did you participate in that lifestyle?

Speaker 2 (01:44:53):
Uh? Not to the degree that my co work did,
especially on the drug end of the equation. I could
see where the edge was, and I might rub up
to it every now and then, But I was not

(01:45:14):
interested in cocaine at all at.

Speaker 1 (01:45:19):
All, because you did and didn't like it, or you
thought it was dangerous.

Speaker 2 (01:45:24):
I did it, and I didn't like it, and I
knew it was dangerous and I saw what it did
to other people. Now, marijuana, I was all up in
the marijuana thing, especially right out of high school in
the late sixties, back when it was really illegal and

(01:45:47):
you want to smoke pot, you had to be a
countercultural character and live outside the law, and you would
get hurt legally by it if you got caught. And
I had my run ends that LSD crazy. Yeah, let's

(01:46:08):
that was great. Let's do that again. A little bit
of that went a long way. But I'm not saying
I didn't use LSD on a fairly regular basis for
a while, but I mean, at one point it was like, Okay,
I'm good, but with a cocaine made me nervous, made
me jump in. Just the whole thing didn't work for me,

(01:46:29):
And so it was significantly harmful to my coworkers in
ways that I'm not at liberty to discuss. But I
saw what it was, and I knew I didn't want
to mess with it, not go down that road, no way.

(01:46:51):
But you know the advantages of being a celebrity and
people wanting to, you know, be close to that because
it makes them feel good, right, I mean, hey, I'm
hanging around with the band. I mean, I'm friends with

(01:47:12):
the band. You can go watch them on stage, but
I'm back here hanging out. You know, we're like friends.
M hm m hmmm. So there's that, and that was harmful.

(01:47:38):
Where does the problem start in the fun stop? It's
hard to really find the line, but it's in there. Oh, well,
you're a single, now you're single. Now you can do whatever.
You're well, you're married, what are you doing? You're married? Man,
what do you do? Really? Yeah, wait a minute, are

(01:48:03):
you serious? And then there's that compromise, and I internalize
it as integrity, but there's a compromise and what seemed
to pass is recreational fun and games at one point

(01:48:26):
became or could become, or often did become problematic and
structural in its nature, and it just didn't work. At
one point didn't work, I mean, could be getting older,
could be growing up and seeing things for what it was.

(01:48:52):
It just kind of goes back to those days when
you're trying so hard to be somebody and you're working
so hard, you're spending so much time away from home,
and you know, you're just playing your guitar and shaking
your ass and trying to, you know, make people like

(01:49:13):
you if you're a nice looking guy, you know, and
you had, you know, things that were part of it.
I mean, I don't think it's a secret that the
music business is centered in a very sexual sort of

(01:49:38):
property and it's it's all about that. And same with film.
So you know how many Tom Waits's are there, you know,
to where you're just completely disconnected from anything that looks
I mean Lindsey Buckingham, for God's sakes, or Nick don Felder,

(01:50:04):
I mean name it Elvis compressedly, you know, I mean
it starts there, goes on and on and on indefinitely,
and that's part of what it was or is, and
you have to navigate that. You have to, you know,
try and manage yourself in a thoughtful and in a

(01:50:29):
wise way, because there's so many opportunities to wander off
the path and become lost.

Speaker 1 (01:50:41):
Why do you believe you were so driven to be
successful as a recording artist.

Speaker 2 (01:50:46):
Just ambitious by nature, my sister's me, our family, our
family's business, just ambitious, German, hardworking. And then my mom
and her English upbringing and parents and background, and the heart,

(01:51:11):
the heart and the mind, the heart and the feeling
and the mind just will not accept the feet of failure.
It just won't take it. It can't. There's no way
that can happen.

Speaker 1 (01:51:26):
You mentioned in the book. You know, you're growing up
in northern New York, relatively speaking, New York's a big
state and the mountains of New York. Father has a farm,
parents split up to move to the Florida. What did
your parents say about your career You weren't instantly successful.

(01:51:48):
Were they supportive, were they dismissive? How did they feel
as the years played out?

Speaker 2 (01:51:53):
Well, I think it's typical the difference between your mother
and father. My mother was supportive. She was supportive, like nurturing.
I got arrested one time for the possession of marijuana.

(01:52:14):
Wasn't mine. I just was with a guy who and
everybody went to jail and I called my mom and
I said, Mom, I'm in jail and I need you
to help me get out of jail. It's the bond
is going to be said at this And before she
came down to the bail bondsman, she took whatever I

(01:52:37):
had in the way in marijuana at the house of flux.
So my mother, in her own way, you know, was
looking out for me and being supportive and being, you know,
part of my solution. Not now my dad, my dad said.
My relationship was significantly different. You know. I love my dad,

(01:53:04):
but my dad was like skeptical. And one of the
famous quotes my father used to say to me was,
what are you doing up there in a room with
that guitar plunk a plunkin around up there, come down
here and play me a song? Can you play me

(01:53:25):
a song? And it wasn't that many years later. I
was standing in front of one hundred thousand people on
stage with the Outlaws at the unveiling of our first
album in New York. And he drove down with his
wife and my half sisters and brothers, and he watched

(01:53:49):
his son get a standing ovation from one hundred thousand people,
and he was like, that's my son, that one over there,
that's my So dad went from being, you know, a
doubter to being my biggest supporter. It's too I mean,
it's the way it goes. And I mean, who can

(01:54:12):
blame him? You know, because they never asked me to
help him with a farm, So what the hell? I
thought I'd start my own business.

Speaker 1 (01:54:25):
Now. You also make a big point in the book
about growing sweet corn. I grew up in the Northeast,
I know what sweet corn is. And then having a
farm on your property now, so what can you tell
us about sweet corn? And how extensive farm do you
actually have?

Speaker 2 (01:54:42):
Nothing like the failt farm. Nothing. This is all fun, big,
but it's fun. Our farm in New York, we would
do five tractor trailers a day, a day and a day.
I mean, we were sending a lot of corn up

(01:55:04):
and down the Eastern Seaboard, a MP Grand Union, all
the big chains were buying our corn. We had a salesman.
It was a big business. My grandfather made a lot
of his land was worth a lot of money. I
was so proud to be My granddad was Henry Paul.

(01:55:28):
My dad was Henry Paul. I was Henry Paul. This
was our farm, this is our land. That business kind
of was the was the image of that area. And
you know, they'd have Hurley, New York and they'd have
an Ork corn and we were the first family growing it.

(01:55:49):
And there were two other families growing at it on
the level that we did. One was the Davenports, one
was the Gills. And the Gills and the Davenports and
the Paul family own the Hurly Flats and grew corn
on it. And that made me feel really good. Like

(01:56:10):
ego wise, I was someone I didn't go running around,
you know, making a deal of it. But I mean,
in my heart, I felt like I was a part
of something good. You can say the exact same thing
for the Outlaws and for black Hawks and every repulpment
exact same thing, only this was my business. You had

(01:56:36):
your farm. I had my band. It has my name
on it, just like your bag has our name on
the bag of corn. But this was my way of
creating my own because I didn't get invited to run
the farm or take it over. I started my own
business and it satisfied an artistic inclination of mine, and

(01:56:57):
I got to do that, and then I found success
at it, and I got to be my own person.
Who wasn't, you know, coming in on the hills of
someone else's work. I did it on my own.

Speaker 1 (01:57:16):
Whatever happened to.

Speaker 2 (01:57:17):
The farm, my dad, my granddad who started it, passed away.
My dad was a faithful son, worked hard for his father.
But by the time my granddad passed away, my dad
was over it. He built a house in Florida. He

(01:57:40):
and his wife would go in and stay. Eventually he
sold it, you know, eventually it was sold. The Warren
Buffett family came in and bought a lot of what
we had, along with the farm next door, and they,

(01:58:00):
to their credit, turned it into a new Ordanic model
and the sweetcorn business from where we came from. It's gone.
It's all gone. Nobody grows. One of the large segments
of our farm. Someone bought their growing marijuana on it,

(01:58:21):
like THC marijuana, medical marijuana. They're doing very well. The
Buffett family bought the larger part of the farm and
with a huge one next door, they're they're growing organic
produce and doing probably well at it. But it just
changed that way.

Speaker 1 (01:58:40):
But the land was very valuable. Did any of the
revenue from that trickle down to the next generation in you.

Speaker 2 (01:58:49):
Did I have a huge inheritance? Well?

Speaker 1 (01:58:51):
Yeah, you know, some people have no inheritance, but you're
talking about your parents had a very successful business.

Speaker 2 (01:58:57):
Yeah, well yeah, I think it's safe to say that
there was, you know, there's something in it for all
of us there. You know, there were three kids from
my dad's first marriage and three kids from the dad
second marriage. So it wasn't like somebody got everything, but
you know, there was enough to go around, and there
was there was, you know, a reward, so to speak.

(01:59:27):
I took my wife and my kids this past March.
We flew into New York. I was actually working. I
took the train in New York. They flew to New York.
We spent like three or four days in the city.
This is going to get back to what you're talking about.
But then I said, well, we were planned a ski

(01:59:50):
trip in the Catskills where I learned to ski. We
were going to go to bel Air Mountain and we're
going to skip and so we drove. I rented a car,
We drove up, and we had dinner with my sister,
and the next morning we drove into Hurley and I
showed him where the farm was. There's this old dutch

(02:00:11):
stone home we lived in, built in seventeen twenty, and
the barns across the street was open, huge open fields.
There is absolutely no sign that we were ever there.
And it was very, very difficult for me. My grandfather,
who was the greatest rock star in my mind I've

(02:00:33):
ever known, and my dad, who was a hard working, faithful,
smart guy over there. At least I have a book,
at least I have a record, at least I have
this body of work. For whatever it means, that tells

(02:00:56):
reminds people that I was here. He didn't become filthy
rich or have medical insurance all the time. But I
do have something to show for my life, and I'm
proud of that. I guess I'm proud of that. I'm
proud of the fact that I was able to do

(02:01:17):
what I dreamt and set out to do. I actually
got to do it.

Speaker 1 (02:01:23):
So why the book, why now?

Speaker 2 (02:01:28):
Well? I thought it was late enough in the story
of the game, of the of the story to tell
it to give people who just loved the band and
came and bought a ticket and went to the Spectrum
and drank whiskey and hoot and dollar, just so they

(02:01:50):
know what happened. What it was like to share a
bottle of Jack Daniels in the front lounge of my
bus would run him in. What it was like to
be invited on stage by Dicky Betts and to play Southbound.
What it was like night after night with the Marshall

(02:02:13):
Tucker Band of the Charlie Daniels Band. What it was
like to cohabitate with these cohabitat habitat with these people
and be a part of their lives to where we
were knew one another on a first name basis. What
it was like to be in that. Because most of

(02:02:35):
the people that I grew up with in that are gone,
and there are maybe a few people around that can
still tell the story, I have a great memory, and I,
you know, wrote this book with Gary Hirtz, who was
a really smart guy, and I gave. We had a

(02:02:56):
great collaboration of how it was, how it worked, what happened,
how it felt. The Rolling Stones, Mick Jagger and Keith
Richards coming into our dressing room. I love your ben
you know, it's like, Hey, they liked our band. That's great.
Thanks Matt. We like yours too. You know it's not

(02:03:21):
Paul McCartney and John Lennon or George Harrison or Ringo
Starbus not bad.

Speaker 1 (02:03:27):
Okay, Henry. A couple of things. One I can just
tell by talking to you that you are a smart guy. Two,
you're obviously a student of the game and no music
history just by your references. In any event, it's been
a great pleasure talking to you. I want you to
have that. Paie, have a good birthday. Thanks for talking

(02:03:49):
to my audience. Thanks till next time. This is Bob
leftsas

Speaker 2 (02:04:18):
Sh