Jamie Kitman

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast.
My guest today is music manager Jamie Kittman. He's responsible
for They Might Be Giants. He also looks after Mike Doughty,
and his previous history was involved with Okay Going the
violin Thems. But even more interestingly, he is the New

(00:29):
York bureau chief for Audimobile Magazine. Jamie, Hello, Bob Okay,
So what are you doing in l A Um actually
out here for the launch of the land Rover Defender.
Little light music business on the side, but there's a
new land Rover Defender for the first time in seventy years. Uh,

(00:51):
the original coming out, and uh that's kind of a
big deal. So I'm actually here covering it for Airmail,
which is the new Graden Carter Alesander Stanley UM publication. Okay,
how did you get that gig writing for them? Uh?
They called me up and asked me if I wanted
to do it, and I was like sure, Um, you know, um,

(01:15):
I would like to say I'm in three dying industries, uh, cars, music,
and magazine. So uh, when somebody calls generally in the
certainly in the writing realm, I'll hear them out and uh,
it's uh, it's a pretty exciting publication and so it
was kind of an honor to do it. Okay, Now,

(01:35):
I certainly got their first edition free over the summer.
Do you have any idea what's going on with the airmail? Airmail,
how many people are reading it, etcetera. Um. I was
talking to my editor the other day. He said that
they thought it was successful so far and that they
were still having fun. And I said, well, it's only
been out for a couple of months. I hope you're

(01:56):
still having fun. But he uh he he indicated was good,
But I don't really Uh, you know, it's hard to
track that the metrics on something like that, and I'm
not sure I would understand them anyway. Okay, starting with
the automobile thing, You're not only in Automobile Magazine every
issue with a column, You're occasionally in the New York

(02:17):
Times on the opinion page. What generates the most heat
for you? Well, I mean it depends what you mean
by heat. Um. When I wrote I think my first
automotive up ed piece was for the Times was um,
basically their first ever anti suv uh ed piece. Uh

(02:40):
in n So that was gosh, that's twenty four years ago,
but um, twenty five years ago. Uh that that generated
a lot of heat in the sense that suddenly I
stopped being invited to car launches by manufacturers because uh
that was in fact, they're great profidence and it just

(03:01):
irritated them. I can tell you a story that combined
both of cars and music around that. Uh that was
time to the uh New York Auto Show that year
and land Rover Um, who are actually my hosts on
this trip, We're launching their first ever Discovery model then

(03:22):
and it was so important to them that they had
hired Staying uh for it as he uh to come
to New York and he was gonna um receive a
donation for his Brazilian rainforest charity. Uh while introducing the
Discovery to the assembled media who were in town for

(03:44):
the New York Auto Show, but also not just the
automotive media, but the music press, which was a thing
back then and had all these people. They were going
to go to an art directed mound of dirt on
at the end of forty Street by the Hudson River,
and a Discovery was going to drive over it. Then
Staying would get the oversized check and the photo op

(04:05):
and all that stuff. Apparently I found this out a
year later from a uh sometimes uh freelance publicist for
land Rover. She was like, Jimmie Kentman, you made for
the most miserable day of my life. Apparently Sting woke
up that morning and read this piece in the Time
suggesting that actually SUVs weren't environmentally sound and that they

(04:27):
really hadn't you know, no benefit to most people and
were unnecessary and just eight more gas were more deadly
in accidents, and he woke up and he refused to
show up. So uh, the end of the story is
is that they ended up having to give his rainforest
charity eighty thous dollars instead of forty. So I feel

(04:49):
like I did my bit for the environment right there. Yeah,
I mean obviously, although we still need more money for
the rainforest right now. But this was that was when Jaguars,
Jaguarren land Rover are still together but owned by the Chinese.
Now right, that's no, they're owned by the Indians. Now
they're owned by Tata Motors. Can't keep straight who's owned
by the Chinese and so who's owned by Indians and

(05:10):
who's owned by Chinese. The well Jaguar land Rovers owned
by the Indians UH. Also the new UM electric sports
car company Pininfarina's owned by a different set of Indians, UH,
and UH the Chinese owned Volvo UH and their new
pole Star all electric brand which is just launching its

(05:34):
first car, the poll Star one which I drove the
other week, which is awesome. And UH. They also UM
own Lotus, the English sports car company UM, among others.
And the actually the people who make London taxis now
are owned by this same Chinese company, which is called Jelie.

(05:55):
And the thing about both of the Indians and the
Chinese UH the make for interesting case studies as opposed
to when American companies were buying of car companies, like
when Ford bought Volvo and Jaguar and Aston, Martin, UH
and GM, saab UM, is that the Chinese really seemed

(06:15):
to stand back and let the engineers who made those
companies worth buying in the first place do their job
and you know, the executives and the product planners and
things like that, whereas the Americans tend to have stuck
their fingers deeper into those companies in an effort to
realize additional savings and things like that, with sometimes uh,

(06:38):
negative results for the company that they bought. The the
the most egregious example being SAAB, which was bought by
General Motors, and you know what they did. They surgically
removed its brain. And you know, they sold a Chevy
Trailblazer as a sub and it was, you know, an
affront to everything that SAB ever stood for Now at

(07:02):
the same time, I know you happen to have that
SABERU the well that was you know, at least that
was closer to what a SAB had sub you know,
not been going bankrupt, what they would have been making,
whereas the the Chevy Trailblazer SAB was just an abbommination. Okay,
I says, I don't need to vend defend my car.

(07:24):
You know. Interestingly, I just taken to the sub rue
place to be serviced. Well there there is no place exactly.
But uh, I have a friend who owned two sobs
and ran into that trouble, said he's never gonna buy Okay,
I talked to him about buying a Tesla threason already
bought two cars from a company that went out of business.
I'm anxious, but we'll get to Tesla. Eventually they're great
values car cars from companies that are either out of

(07:46):
or going out of business. I mostly specialized in those.
What I bought new cars, great deals. Okay, what have
you bought recently to you? Uh? Well, I actually I
bought a Fiat was the first car I ever bought
new car right after they had an announced going out
of business. Eight now, I said, eighty two, I bought

(08:09):
a Prussia and ninety two right when they went out
of business. Half rice um. I wrote a column in
ninety four or ninety late ninety three I had just
bought it Alfa Romeo, and I said, well, based on
my drag record, they're probably going to go out of business,
And six months later they did. Uh so yeah, I

(08:30):
mean okay, but interestingly you but you know, fix it again, Tony.
My sister had a Fiat, great car, but certainly you know,
the body ended up getting cancer. When you get one
of those cars discontinued, especially Pougeau that weren't that many
of them. How hard is it to get them serviced? Uh?
It's harder than than some other cars, but not impossible

(08:52):
if you're resourceful and having always been an old car
fan Um. Finding obscure parts difficult, you know, to find things.
You know, it's just been always part of my existence.
There's actually old cars that it's easier to get parts
for now than it was twenty or thirty years ago
because because they people started to reproduce uh parts that

(09:15):
had gone out of production. There was there was enough
of a business case for people old mgs for instance,
you know, for people to make almost every part that
was on one of those cars, so it became easier. Also,
the Chinese will make almost any part um if there's
a market for it, um and they can do it cheaply.

(09:37):
Uh Sadly they're often of inferior quality, but you know
they might get you back on the road, right, Okay,
So you're here for the land Rover Defender. Okay, I
remember land Rover in the seventies, front of mine had
it went all of fifty five, but it would climb anything. Okay.
Then about twenty five years ago, a little bit longer,

(09:58):
they came out with the range Roll. Now in l
A that's a status car and it never goes off
you know, off trail so to speak. What's your viewpoint
on all that? Well, I mean that's actually uh Rover
really pioneered that market. The range Rover actually came out
in nineteen sixty eight, uh in in sixty nine and

(10:20):
in the UK and Europe, just didn't get sold in America.
It was a luxury car then it was it was
it was more spartan than it is today, but it
was considered a luxury suv and um UM I had
an unusual window on that because I was born in Brooklyn,
but I grew up in Leonia, New Jersey, which was
the headquarters for British Leyland, which was the company that

(10:43):
owned Rover by that point, and so I saw prototypes
of those when I was a kid riding my bicycle
around in their parking lot that they had were testing
in America doing hot weather testing for um, which in
the New Jersey summer is is really believable because it
was hot. But my view of them in general is that, uh,

(11:05):
you know, uh, I've always liked range Rovers, but uh
I like them better when not so many people were
driving them, because there there's a certain person who really
can make good use of that and I think, you know,
reasonable efficient use of it, and then there are people
who are just mostly wasting gas and taking up too
much space. So so I'm sort of ambivalent about that.

(11:28):
The Defender, I mean, it really leads the more you
think about it, it leads you to to the whole
authenticity question, which is, you know what so much marketing
of everything from you know, cars and high fi systems
and bicycles and and music is about um because the
Defender was around for so long that it kind of

(11:51):
got a free path from everybody, myself included, because it
it just it was what it was. It was no
nonsense work vehicle, and they didn't really the funds with it,
and they weren't catering to you know, the latest uh
you know mobile phone app. In fact, it had no telematics,
no capability to deal with your phone whatsoever. Uh. And

(12:13):
that was that was um, you know, gave it an
incredible authenticity, which makes the launch and the new Defenders
so um interesting. You know, I haven't actually seen it
in the medal. I will tonight, but um, you know,
are they able to sustain that? Are they able to

(12:34):
you know, to recreate that with this new car that
is modern? You couldn't you couldn't build a car that
that was that primitive anymore. It wasn't safe enough. Um,
it didn't have the you know, facility to do things
that everybody expects of their car. Now. The downside of
the new things, which are going to be way more

(12:55):
electronics and exotic medals and things like that, is that
they're harder for people in the bush too to fix.
Which was always one of the things that people liked
about land robbers is that you know, you could be
in the in the in the deepest jungle in Africa
and with the you know, with this Swiss army knife,
you could get a lot of stuff fixed and repaired.
But you know, it ain't gonna be that way anymore.

(13:18):
And it's just okay, how long has it been since
they manufactured the original Defender Just about a year I think, like, yeah,
just a little over a year. And they did a
run out edition that was very expensive in the UK
that speculators all bought and uh many automotive journalists and
my acquaintance also bought. And how expensive expensive Well it was, Yeah,

(13:40):
it was getting up in the fifty thousands of dollars,
I would say, which you know, for for what's essentially
like yeah, stripped down vehicles was enough The new ones,
they will be more expensive, so that will be uh
you know, it will keep them exclusive for some time.
I think we have bought the defender of the VIA

(14:00):
generation in America, only there was a brief period they
stopped selling what was its predecessor in nineteen four in
America and in ninety three through you could buy it legally.
There's a massive trade in cars that are imported from overseas,

(14:20):
though many of them illegal, and there was in fact
a very um well publicized effort on the part of
the government too sees cars that had been fraudulently imported.
There's a twenty five year exemption on old cars that
if a car is twenty five years old, it doesn't
have to pass E p A standards and d O

(14:42):
T standards. And this is of course before the Trump administration,
where it doesn't matter if anything passes any standard because
they don't enforce any of the rules anymore. But uh
so you could bring in a twenty five year old
land Rover. What people did was, um they would get
a serial number off of twenty five year older older
land Rover, slap it on almost brand new one and

(15:04):
bring it in. So l a is is uh littered
with you know, two thousand and fifteen land Rover Defender
one tens with all the trimmings um that are probably
titled as a you know, as a or something like that.
You know, it's interesting you bring up a lot of things.
You talk about being in New Jersey and seeing the

(15:26):
models that are going to come out. I remember being
in the library and high school. We'd read those car magazines.
I never saw a f I grew up a never
saw a famous person, never saw one of those covered cars.
Have seen it occasionally in l A friend of mine
had the last Defender seventy four and when we lived
in Utah, because we were skiing and he wanted a
vehicle like that. He brought it in to the company

(15:49):
that service and they said, there's no such thing as
the seventy four. If you want to come out and
see mine, and I remember we were Mammoth Mountain in
May and there's nowhere to park. He literally parked it
on the side of a mound of snow, nearly vertical.
It's just amazing with those things could do. They they
were great. Okay, so let's let's back up. Holy Okay,

(16:11):
let's start with you brought the suv question in your mind,
the fact that most of these vehicles are now crossovers,
meaning that they have a cart bottom as opposed to
truck bottom, does that save them? In your eyes? It
improves them? And you know, in in fairness, they're significantly safer,

(16:33):
more economical, cleaner, better handling, less likely to roll over,
less likely to kill the driver. Um then and other
people than the SUVs of say the nineties were. Uh,
it doesn't entirely save them because they're still they're big,
they're bluff um, and they're tall with higher centers of gravity,

(16:55):
so they actually get you know, worse mileage than an
equivalent car would get or something that was lower. Um.
They don't necessarily have any more room than a car
would have. They're just jacked up higher. And it's uh,
so that's you know, that's what's negative about them. And
a lot of people will say, well, you know, in

(17:15):
the electric future, when you know there's these new electric
SUVs like the Mustang that was announced last night or
the Rivian that's coming that, you know, it won't really matter, um,
because you won't be using gasoline, but you will be
using more electricity to power this thing. That's too heavy,
too big, and very bluff um, so that it will

(17:37):
still be an issue even then that you know, why
should you be using more electricity than less electricity? If
we didn't care about that, why do we have laws
that make refrigerators more efficient and televisions and other appliances.
So um, so I'm concerned from that point. Also, Dynamically,
they're a real step down from cars, you know, dynamically

(17:59):
meaning how they handle, how you know, how fast you
can go around a corner, on from the old school,
which vout puts a value on, you know, how nicely
things go around corners. Uh. The SUV really was a
paradigm shift, and that's what Suddenly people stopped caring about it.
It was like the shift that I know that you've

(18:20):
written about often where you know, high fidelity sort of
became like what's that. You know, the whole generation of
people who had been you know, you know, their predecessors
had spent their entire lives in search of better and
better sound. Um, suddenly you know went out the window
in in in favor of miniaturization and you know, like

(18:43):
portability and and uh, you know, connectivity and things like that,
so that it became a you know, high fidelity became
a minority interest where it had been at least a
bigger minority. Uh. Same with handling and ride and things
like that. Then other an log in the in the
car world was the shift from uh, smaller wheels to

(19:05):
bigger wheels. Now everything's got twenty inch wheels and big
tires or twenty two inch wheels, and that runs against
you know, the hundred years of automotive history where engineers
and manufacturers learned and customers agreed that that all of

(19:25):
that extra weight and height made for a poor ride quality.
And so things got a lot bumpier than they had been.
And and you know, a hundred years of trying to
make cars ride smoothly went out the windows. Okay, so
if you see a car now almost all the cars
have these very low profile tires, what are the advantages

(19:46):
and disadvantages of those. Well, the advantages are are generally, uh,
more grip um because there's less flex in the side wall,
and you know, more confident handling, but mostly aesthetic beyond
that and uh and the same with the wheels. So
I remember being at the GM proving grounds and in

(20:08):
UH war in Michigan, and UH um, we were driving
around in a Cadillac Escalade, and um we One of
the things we were doing was driving a GM show
car from the nineteen thirties called the Wide Job, which
was a Buick and a really cool futuristic you know,

(20:30):
two seater that was you know, eight ft long, but
it had these tiny wheels, like thirteen inch wheels with
big balloon tires, and um, I asked the guy who
was driving me around. I was like, well, you know, like,
what was the idea with like thirteen inch wheels? Were
riding in an escalator on twenty twos? And he's like, oh,
ride quality absolutely, And I was like, well, why are

(20:53):
then just this Cadillac, which is supposed to ride smooth?
Why is it uh have twenty two inch wheels? And
he was like, well, uh, you know people want them.
They look cool. You know. That's it. That's all I got. Okay,
starting with handling the Cayenne and the Cayenne Turbo, the
poor show how does that handle compared to a sedan? Uh?

(21:16):
It Well, again, it's it's a lot. It's pretty heavy,
so it's on the heavier end of what a sedan.
My way on the on the you know, really probably
a little past that, but it also is taller. Now
that said, you know, they handle about as good as
something that weighs, you know, fifty pounds could handle, you know,

(21:37):
after it's been jacked up six or seven inches. But uh,
you know, compared to I mean the comparison that I
find more emotional for me is comparing it to like
a nine eleven or a Boxer, which handles great. Um,
and it's you know, it's a different thing. The brand
has has you know, fundamentally changed or at least large

(22:01):
parts of it. Some of my colleagues will tell you, well,
you know, they had to do that in order to
be able to steal offer things like the nine eleven
and box there. I don't I don't buy that, but
you know that's okay. I know this ridiculous point. But
on a percentage basis, what percentage of the handling of
a nine eleven would you get with a Cayenne? How

(22:22):
much are you losing? Oh? Uh you know, I mean
non scientifically, I would say, you know, you're losing uh
a lot, you know, I mean, you know, in terms
of like how fast you could go around the track, Yeah,
not as fast, and in find up slower, but the
joy of driving something that's lets close to the ground

(22:43):
and that's really it is not carrying any excess weight.
It is is substantial. I mean, you know, it's like people,
you know how you know, like if if somebody weighs
too much, you know, like it affects the way they
move around it. Okay, So is there any hope? Is
there any hole? Especially when the American manufacturers stopping making sedans,

(23:06):
is there any hope for the sedan in America? Well? Interestingly, UM,
the Japanese makers Onanda and Toyota and Nissan, UM, and uh,
the Korean makers haven't given up on that. And reading
in the trade press in the last six months, while
people are sort of scratching their heads, going like, well,

(23:28):
why haven't they followed the Americans down this rat hole? Um,
they say, well, our research tells us that UM millennials
actually are buying more UM small cars and sedans than
the SUVs, which is different than what older people are doing.

(23:48):
And you know, I mean I've been predicting this for
years and that that people would that it was a
fad that would go away SUVs. Of course it would
appear on the surface that I was wrong. And and
one of the reasons I started being invited back on
car launches was that nobody listened to my op ed

(24:08):
But um, um, the you know idiots. It's sort of
axiomatic in that in the automobiles that uh nobody wants
to drive with their parents drove. So you know, station
wagons went out in favor of mini vans because you know,
station wagons weren't cool. And then um, you know, and

(24:29):
then mini vans went out largely as SUVs rolled in
to take their place. So something you would think would
replace that. And I would suggest that station wagons again
still make more sense and minivans than most SUVs, being lighter,
more nimble and having just as much room and obviously

(24:51):
more economical in terms of of using uh, you know,
gasoline or in the future. You know, you need to
say one thing that an suv will give you. If
you're have a large piece of equipment, a surfboard, a
paddle board, skis whatever, it would be easier to transport
those in an suv. That's very few people. But right well,

(25:13):
I mean that's that is uh people's uh justification often
for why they buy too much car uh, you know,
And It's probably their justification why they buy too much
house and too much everything is that well, I might
need it. So people go like, well, you know, we
go up to the lake every summer. You know, it's like,
you know, for the extra thousands of dollars you're gonna

(25:35):
spending gasol and you could just rent a big truck
for your summer vacation. If that's true, you know, I
might have to tell things. In nineteen uh ninety nine
or two thousand, the New York Times magazine hired me
to write a story about what we're then the new
Lincoln and Cadillac pickup trucks, which the not very car

(25:58):
focused editors just thought was markably strange that there would
be these you know what were then, you know, primarily
car brands, although the Escalade and the Navigator had already
come out. How why they were doing this? So I
spent time in the vowels of GM and Ford talking
to marketing people, and their reasons were I mean, they
seemed remarkably frank that people didn't need these cars, but

(26:22):
that they had tapped into this like you know, kind
of like um deep psychology of of people, of of
why they would buy them and you know, there was
clearly something about writing higher up that makes some people
feel comfortable, notwithstanding the fact that, uh, you know, when
everybody's in a big stuv you can't see over them anyway,

(26:44):
you might as well be trying to look around them
or under them. Um and that you know, it's sort
of veghets and arms race, you know, like, well, you know,
if if everybody is going to be in a Lincoln Navigator,
I might as well be driving a Peter Built or
ken Worth you know, eighteen wheeler and be have the
the extra weight and height. But u um they should.

(27:07):
There was that, and they were happy to as you know,
what underpins their whole conversation is what why they're happy
to sell them is is that they persuaded people that
they should pay more for things that ride higher. It's
it's just a truism and the almost all marketing in
America that the higher it is, the more you can

(27:28):
charge for it, even if it's the same car. And
that's true with crossovers. So for instance, the four the
recently canceled forward Focus was the basis of a Ford Escape,
but a you know, really loaded up forward Focus might
have cost twenty four dollars twenty six thousand dollars. The
a loaded up escape is forty dollars and it has

(27:50):
about five dollars more content, you know, maybe a thousand
dollars more content. So you know, which do they want
to sell? That's that's and that they'll always go, well,
what can we do? That's what you know the people want.
But actually you didn't market any of the other things,
you didn't develop them, and you know you've persuaded people
that that's what they want. Now, there are people genuinely

(28:12):
who need that, and there are people who generally who
want it. But that's that's sort of the issue. But
in any case, going back to being in the battles
of Ford UM, they were talking about UM the sort
of psycho sexual dimension they want. Most of the buying decisions,
I mean, this is sort of counterintuitive, but most of
the buying decisions were UM made by women, a majority

(28:36):
of them in car purchases. And they said that women
in particular found UM minivans really de sexualizing because you know,
you saw a mom at a traffic light, you know,
you could see her kids in the back, and you
just knew that you know, she did she did not
want to party with you and um and that was

(28:56):
you know, upsetting to women. Um that you know, like
nobody would eve and give them a second look. Not
that they wanted to necessarily party with people, but that
that was that that was upsetting to them. So with
suv s, you were high up, people couldn't necessarily see
what was back and they they started smoking out all
the rear windows so you couldn't see the the the
rug rats in the bag bouncing up and down, and

(29:19):
that that made the women feel more powerful as well
as safer and things like that. So that was a
surprise to me, and it raised the related question of
why um um Ford was calling their new line of
engines then the power Stroke. And I was like, They're like,
you know, yep, And I was like, I was like,

(29:40):
well that sounds kind of dirty to me, and they
were like yep, you know. So uh that you know,
so that they'll you know, they'll sto pretty low to
to close the sale. So someone comes to you today,
what are you tell them to buy? Well, I kind

(30:02):
of asked them what they need. I mean often I'd
say eight percent of the people come to me already
have made up their mind and asking because they want
to be have affirmation. But usually, well that's the thing.
They Often they'll go, oh, you know, I'm I'm calling
to ask you what I should buy. But this has
happened a lot in in the nineties. They'd go, uh,

(30:25):
you know, I'm I know you're gonna think this is
a bad idea, but I just bought or I just
I really want to buy a Ford Excursion or you know,
some behemoth and uh. I was like, well, uh okay,
and they're like, uh, you know, I just it's like,
I have two kids. What am I supposed to do?
You know? And I got like, well, I remember when

(30:47):
I was a kid and people would have four kids
in the back of their BW beatle and you know
they managed to survive. Um, and they're just kind of
sign off quickly, like conversation over but piece of people.
You know, they pretty much uh, you know, based on
whatever you know, uh mixture of Okay, if someone comes

(31:08):
to you today, let's just super for the sake of discussion,
they want to buy a new car. Let's assume they're
not predetermined. What would you recommend. Well, I mean for
just an ordinary person, I think Sedayana or a wagon
would uh there. You know. The great thing about today
is almost nothing is terrible anymore. I mean the days
which aren't that far off where you could buy a

(31:29):
car you just go, this is appalling. I mean there
are still some Jeeps that I would say, we're appalling,
but not as bad as they were. But uh so, really,
any brand is okay. And if you um, you know,
truly depends how much money you want to spend. But
you know, uh, the Koreans are you know, shockingly good
now and even there in the luxury realm they're cheaper,

(31:51):
but you know, more or less as good as anything German,
and probably more reliable. I like all the German brands
swell um and uh you know, and there are good
American cars too, although you know, fewer and further between. Well.
I liked the focus, the late focus up like hot
rotted version of they did. It was that focus st

(32:14):
that was great. Uh. And there was even better Fiesta,
which was uh uh you know, very quick, and they
killed that as well, so you know, And and the
irony is is that they talk about, you know, trying
to stay with the young people. I mean young people,
you know, like the drifters who were out like, you know,
racing their cars at night. You know what used to

(32:36):
be the hot rotters of another generation. You know, they're
not in um Ford edges. You know, they're driving Civics
and Corollas and you know Nissan Sedans and things like
that that that uh, that handled, and so people sort
of forget now that uh somebody was just saying this

(32:57):
last night. Uh, but the people who were, you know,
of the hot rudders, it was not a majority thing.
So there's there's this uh kind of notion about in
the land these days that kids just don't care about
cars anymore. They don't care about you know, a lot
of stuff that you know, the old timers cared about.
And my experience going around is that there's actually is

(33:18):
still a lot of interest among young people and they're
really into it and they know stuff. You know, I
think there's a segment, but pole to say it, when
we grew up sixteen, getting your license that was like
the number one thing. And there are I know a
lot of people who have children who certainly didn't get
their license at sixteen, and some of them don't even
have it at age. My own son amusingly um my

(33:42):
eldest son didn't even go to get a driver's license
until like eight or ten months after he was allowed to.
My recollection is that I went three days before my
seventeenth birthday in New Jersey just in case they changed
the law, you know, and I could drive earlier. And
of I was driving before then anyway. Uh. And he he,

(34:03):
he used to tell me, like, you know, we'd be
driving down the road and Heed point to like some
Mitsubishi Lancer or some you know, phenomenally dull Sadan. He'd
go that that would be fine for me if I
ever had a car, But I don't. I don't want
a car. Well, long story short. He's now he finished
university and he somewhere along the way he became an

(34:23):
insane car not and he rebuilt an Alfa Romeo. And
now he's actually apprentice to North America's leading rebuilder of
SU carburetors, which are the British carburetors that were current
from nineteen oh four to seven, same fundamental design and UH,
which were on every Jaguar and MG and Triumph that

(34:44):
there ever was pretty much and UH in those days,
and so UH through him. But elsewhere I I do
meet young people who are into it, and well, certainly,
we live in a country of three hundred plus million.
Let's go specifically brand by brand, sure, Audie, Okay, forget
in terms of handling other than they're one that's essentially Lamborghini. Uh,

(35:07):
the R S four, I believe it is. How good
is an Audi compared to a Mercedes? But you're thinking
of the right, That's what I meant. But how good
is the Audi compared to the BMW compared to the Mercedes?
Ben It's uh in uh, my current rankings have changed.
There was a time where BMW was unassailably the driver's

(35:30):
car of the three of those brands. Um and um,
that's changed. Um. They you know, the famous tagline was
BMW S for the Ultimate Driving Machines. I'd like to
call them the pen ultimate driving machine now because they
really have taken their eye off the ball. It's just
not you know, Well, let's go back to BMW, who

(35:52):
is number one? Well right now I would say, i'm
i'm I feel like it's fairly closed, but I might
give Mercedes the odd uh as being the one I
would most like to own. But I just had an
A seven last week in New York and was driving
on the highway from some distance and it was pretty great.
Audis are pretty great. Uh and uh, you know they're

(36:14):
all fine, and they all make SUVs that I despise, um,
but their cars, which are you know, what the TVs
are based on, are are are better than they were.
Mostly BMW has taken its eye off of of that
last degree of excellence. Let's just grown so much that
they're really uh there. I mean, Volkswagen group that depends

(36:39):
in great measure on Autis being successful because they're essentially
you know, good volkswagens um that have been upscaled a
lot and and they charged a lot more money for them,
so it's a huge profit center for them. You know,
it's estimated that Volkswagen bakes barely any profit for for
the Volkswagen group. Autie makes you know, the lions share

(37:01):
of it. And then they also owned Porsche, which is
hugely profitable, and Lamborghini and Bentley, and so that those
companies are generating most of the profit. Uh. They because
of that. This is particularly true now with BMWC. They
need more more and more volume of stuff and they
want to sell stuff that's more expensive, so they have

(37:22):
you know, massive amounts of of Uh. They have huge
product lines. Um. And they're making lots and lots of
bigger and bigger SUVs, which is exactly the wrong direction
they know on some level for them to be going
in in terms of the environment and and the mandates
that you know, bud for Trump are coming down everywhere

(37:43):
in the world. Um and um. So there seems to
be a notion of foot at all the car companies
now that we've got to make as much money as
we can to get ready for this transition to electric cars. Okay,
so BMW, because as you say, they have an incredibly
wide line forgetting the SUVs, the standard Sedan's your bitch

(38:06):
with them is uh, they're they've gotten bigger and bigger
and bigger as so you know, they're less dynamically, um
amusing to me than they were. But so I would
if I was gonna buy a BMW, I'd get a
three series, which was the you know, the smartest one,
which is now the size. It's bigger than the old
five series. So they get bigger and bigger and bigger.

(38:28):
And the station wagon model is very handsome. Uh. Auties Uh,
starting with BMW, do they not? Because BMW every all
the car magazine seemed to say that the M two
was like the ultimate driving machine. It's it's pretty great.
It's pretty cramp though for my money, and it's still
is is pretty heavy, but yeah, it is the it

(38:49):
is the funnest one. I don't know that I'd recommend
it to everybody. It's for somebody who doesn't have three
kids and isn't Let's assume I want to buy an
M too, okay or three? Your ship has come in. No, no, no,
If you want to buy an M two or M three,
M five, are there equivalent Outies or Mercedes that are

(39:11):
just as good or better. They're pretty close. Yeah. They
You have the MG line of Mercedes, C classes any
classes and uh S classes uh and the out RS
models which are like the R S four, R six
those are those are hot, really hot cars. So if
you have to buy one of the three brands, which

(39:32):
would you buy? Oh, golly, um that I can't choose. Okay,
let's go, let's go. Let's go across difference between Toyota, Nissan,
Subaru the rest of the Japanese companies, well, I mean
it's hard to separate them from their current predicaments, which

(39:56):
are in Nissan's case, like complete shake up of their
corporate governance and the sort of simultaneous realization that they've
sort of been getting their sales for the last several
years to make themselves look more successful than they were. Uh,
similar problems. Uh leaving Japan with f c A, the
Fiat Chrysler where they were building cars and parking them

(40:19):
and you know, registering them and jetting their sales. So uh,
those those there there was that for those companies. Nissan
is suddenly about to not be profitable and that's you
know that that really changed their Okay, well when we
talk about I'm gonna buy one, oh well, I mean, uh,
I like Subaru. Still they for my money, they've gotten

(40:41):
way too big. They just get bigger and uglier with
each iteration. But um, but I'm sympathetic to them. Uh.
Toyotas are probably you know, your best bet overall in
terms of reliability, and um, some of their cars are
are quite good. I think you know, the new Corolla

(41:02):
x S. I think it's called it's a hatchback for
do or Corolla, and it's you know, it's aimed at
young people. Is actually remarkably you know, a pleasant car
to drive and pretty sporty. But I mean, you know
they've uh w r X subarus are pretty pretty groovy.
Um and uh I would also probably recommend that you

(41:24):
look at Days and Kiya's too before we get to
the Koreans. Okay, if we got to consumer reports every year,
Toyota and Lexus dominate. Okay, do you think that's a
significant dominance and reliability or do you believe whatever? I
think there's uh there, they are very reliable. I think

(41:47):
that a lot of those surveys, though, are kind of
they're they're kind of closed loops where people are happy
because they think they're happy. So they're happy, you know,
they think this is gonna be great, and so they're
perhaps more forgiving of of things than they might otherwise be. UM. Now,
certainly in the consumer reports, ratings are more um probably

(42:11):
more telling than you know, like the JD Power ones, um,
where where it really does depend you know, they're like
initial satisfaction, you know, Yeah, I mean so some really unreliable,
crappy brands had great initial satisfaction. Hummers for instance, which incidentally,
there's a rumor is going to come back as an
electric vehicle for general motors. Um so, uh, you know,

(42:36):
if you wait long enough, everything will happen. Okay, But
I come from the arrow where you wouldn't buy an
American car. I'm talking about once you get the seventies sixties,
we all all our parents had American cars. I have
a friend and bought a volt and he's had a
long stream and still owns uh German and Japanese uh cars.

(42:57):
He says, you know, it loosened up just like an
old American car in a good way or a bad way. Yeah. Well,
I don't see many people driving American cars with two
or three hundred thousand miles on them. I know plenty
of people with Hondas with two or three hundred thousand. Yeah,
you'd be surprised, though. I've I've run into some of
those American cars with high miles. Uh. You know it's

(43:18):
sunds like the engines can be very good in in
in terms of durability. Um. But yeah, and there's some
really the Chevy Bolt, which is the all electric one,
feels great. But what it's like with three hundred thousand miles,
I can't tell you. Um. But uh, but in general, yeah,
no it's not. You know, American cars they sell because

(43:40):
of people's you know, patriotism. You know, they're misca, so
they tend to be cheaper. And that's what I was
gonna say, is but if they were the same price,
I think, you know, you're a professional, but I would
say the Japanese cars are more reliable. Yeah, absolutely, and
that's why, Um, the American cars, well, there are no
more American cars. There's American Trusty. Are the Korean cars

(44:03):
as reliable as the Japanese cars? Um, my personal impression
is yes, I don't. I don't have the statistics. I mean,
I love I once. You know, I was at a
rental place about ten years ago and the only they
had left was Hyundai, and I cursed them as Sunday
is zero. By time I was ready to turn it
back in, I would have bought it. Yeah, you know,

(44:24):
it's just amazing how it's turned. You know. One of
the things about the automobile industry and a lot of
I guess it's true in a lot of industry is
probably making steal um that who you know, the people
who spend the big money the most recently are going
to necessarily have the most efficient uh production, UM you know,

(44:44):
UH systems and and the best equipment and stuff like that.
You know. So what what happens is when you fail
to reinvest sort of on a regular basis, you're just
you're just always going to be behind on on terms
like that. So the Koreans, you know, in some ways
or probably ahead of the Japanese for the fact that
they spend all the money more recently. So buy or lease? Uh,

(45:09):
there are situations where leases are a good idea. UM.
The UH it's mostly like when you know it's a
business purchase and you can write them. UH. It's also
a good idea in the sense that if you're uh
you have to be concerned about your monthly payment that
it's gonna cost you less, but you know it's it's
it's slightly somewhat more worth it to buy than lease

(45:34):
if you're just if you're just a private citizen, you
know you will have more money left at the end,
even if it costs you more per month. UH. And
then you also you own your car, and that's you know,
that's worth whatever it's it's worth. The one of the
trends in the industry that uh, you know, the average
person may not be aware of. UH. Is that because

(45:55):
cars have gotten more expensive, UM significantly really in the
last ten years. Is that least terms UH and UM
are and and car loans are going out much further
so because often people would be way upside down for
a long time, UH and have and monthly unaffordable monthly payments.

(46:17):
So you have uh six and seven year leases and
and you know car loans now which were unheard of.
You know certainly what you know UM in the in
the last century. You know, in part because you know
your car probably wasn't gonna last six or seven years. Okay,
we're used the smart shopper buys a two year old,

(46:43):
low mileage off lease car from from a dealer in
terms of probably the least hassle. But but the first
two years r when the big depreciation happens. And most cars,
you know, if they have twenty miles on them, have
a ton of life left, So that would be the
the smart move. Do you buy a certified or uncertified

(47:03):
if you can afford it. Certified, it's good. It's just
less hassle, more seamless operation, and uh, you know you
have a warranty. That's that's usually is very good for
a long time. That's a certainly a growing segment of
sales or certified cars. Okay, used to be the rule,
don't buy a car first year they changed the model. Uh,

(47:27):
you know, there's probably some validity to that, although they
you know, they have a generally have a pretty good
idea of what's good and bad about a new car.
But in this century, certainly with the explosion in electronics
and cars, there are a lot of cars that were
being sold that they hadn't figured out the bugs yet.

(47:48):
The Sea class Mercedes early in the century, I mean
they were they were still writing code for those back
in in short guard while cars were here on their
flat bed way on their way back to the dealers
for you know, inexplicable problems that were related to unfinished code,

(48:08):
UM and faulty code and things like that. So, uh,
cars are being asked to do so many more things
now that um um there. There's just a lot to do.
And of course the Germans wanted, who are very competitive
with each other. The minute one of them enters a
new market segment, Uh, they all follow. It's it's like clockwork. Uh,

(48:32):
they have a lot, you know, they're stretched. It's pretty thin. Okay,
what about Tesla, Well, you know a noble uh project.
You know, it's you know, good cars. I would say, uh,
you know, great in some respects uh that for whatever reason,
I've never been like, you know, a true believer like I'm.

(48:54):
They don't excite me. I don't aspire to own one.
At the same time, I admire them great for what
they proved could be done. And I also I'm not
a true hater, which the automotive world is pretty much
split up between Tesla drives UH car companies, but particularly
American car companies crazy because you know, four in GM

(49:15):
can they can make billions of dollars of profit and
their stock goes down and Tesla is you know, is
its market cap is higher than GM some days and
they don't you know, they haven't made a profit really ever,
except by selling tax credits. They don't sell you know,
like a fraction of the cars. And yet people give

(49:36):
them all the breaks. So the car companies, you know,
being an American car executive has basically been kind of
like uh uh you know, some kind of slow form
of water torture for the last forgetting Tesla fan, I'm
not as sympathetic to the car manufacturers in America as
you are. They've consistently refused to make change. So at

(49:57):
this point they're hanging it out in suv Land. As
soon as the bubble bursts, they're fucked. Yeah. I mean, Bob,
I you're a pal, So I won't I won't take
offense at that remark that UM, I'm I've been you know,
I've been complaining about how stupid they are since i
first started UM. In an up end in the l

(50:20):
A Times, I predicted GM's bankruptcy following its uh most
profitable quarter ever. UM and Automobile Magazine refused to run it,
and Uh I was able to. I said that what
we see here is is that they are not UM
they've given up on cars. Uh, they hadn't given up

(50:42):
like they've given up now. But it was the exact
same thing, and all their money was coming from SUVs
and pickup trucks, and one of three things we're gonna happen,
or some combination of uh, you know, the there'd be
a gas crisis and it would be a problem. Uh,
there would be Japanese competition, you know that they were
going to just catch up and make SUVs and pickup trucks. Uh,

(51:05):
and the fashion would change and all of that came
to pass in the ten years later when uh, you know,
in the early two thousands were of course rocky, but
when they went bankrupt. Okay, so let's talk about a first.
Let's break it down a little bit, the shift to
electric How do you see that playing out slower than

(51:25):
um we might hope. I mean, I should start by
saying that I was never anti electric, but I was
sort of skeptical, and then I actually got to spend
time with electric cars and they can be great. Uh.
And uh I had actually an electric Volkswagen Golf for
a year in New York. I put fifteen thousand miles
on it. I calculated I skipped fifty five separate trips

(51:48):
to the gas station, which was you know, its own reward. Um.
And I loved it. Uh. And it didn't even have
the big ranges that cars have now. Uh, there's something
about being an electric car that's so relaxed. Seeing you've
drive through some horrible traffic and you're you know, a
distance to get somewhere and you just get out. You're
not hearing that, you know of an engine for uh,

(52:10):
you know, an hour or two. Is is really makes
you feel better? So it's it's quite luxurious in that sense. Um,
but I think that uh, the internationally there certainly is
a huge push for that to happen. It probably has
to happen, you know, it's beyond argument. Although if you
this was a call in show, we'd have eleven Yeah,

(52:32):
who's waiting in this agreement? Me? But I'm not interested
in them? But uh, but it's beyond argument that the
electric cars are more efficient. Even if you live in
a state that burns coal, you're still better off in
an electric car than you are buying gasoline. And of course,
you know, the oil companies people when I was a kid,
you know, people used to go, well, and you know,

(52:54):
in the seventies like what what's worse like the GM
or XI mobile and people go, I don't know, you know. Now,
to me, it's clear that the oil companies are the
evil list of of the evil corporate actors, worse even
than the car companies, who are you know, amazingly bad themselves.
But the wild companies were the words so so starving

(53:14):
them of of money for gasoline is uh is would
be a fine, you know thing to do with your life.
So when does the fleet go all electric? I think that,
you know, uh, increasingly. And it's hard to tell what
the effect of Trump has been, which has been, you know,
completely negative on the world in every respect. But um,

(53:39):
the people used to think it was going to happen
like next year and the year after that. Uh. You know,
I think we'll be seeing uh, internal combustion engines. I
see engines or i c e. As they call them,
uh into the you know, Uh, I don't mean we'll
see uh, we won't see a lot more electrics. I

(54:02):
could say, I could see thirty When will they stop manufacturing?
Volkswagen has said that they're gonna stop designing anymore now,
but nobody necessarily believes that, but they have that. Volvo
said that they're gonna go all electric. Um and uh,
but their first electric car is a hybrid with a

(54:23):
gas engine and a big battery pack, so the poll
Star one. But so so I would say that, you know,
you will see more and more electric cars. You know.
The what's lacking is infrastructural investment, you know, charging stations
and more of them, and you see hopeful signs. I
think it was Shell said they were going to spend

(54:44):
five billion dollars to put charging stations into shell stations. Uh.
And I have every confidence in the oil industry that
they will whatever the next fuel sources, because um hydrogen
is not dead yet uh and fuel cells, UH, that
that whatever happens, that the oil companies will figure out

(55:05):
a way to sell it to us. Yeah. I mean they'll, they'll, they'll. Okay,
so let's go drill down to Trump. He on an
environmental level, he's battling the state of California. How did
you see that playing out? I don't know, sadly. A
lot of it I think has to do with the
Supreme Court. But I see a lot of uh, positive

(55:26):
futures in states standing up that you know, are for
cleaning up the air against them. So I think it's
going to go on and on and on. But when
he's replaced, I think that a a more sensible administration,
even a Republican one. I mean, he is, he is beyond,
absolutely beyond the pale. I mean, George Bush was terrible

(55:49):
for the environment, Dick Cheney and fracking, which just led
to a kind of a third win for gasoline powered
cars and cheap us and all that kind of stuff. Uh.
Even he you know, cleaned up diesel in America, not
to a point where it's actually good for you, but
it's it's was way less bad than it was. Uh Trump,

(56:12):
It's not that he's just against regulation. You get the feeling.
You start getting the feeling that he's for pollution. He's
actively for it and if there's anything he can do
to make the air dirtier, he'll he'll do it. Um.
And that's uh, that's pretty dispiriting. Um. People at the
e p A Are like, if you could even get
somebody to talk to you, their shell shocked, um and

(56:33):
keeping their heads down, you know, waiting for him to
go because Um, it's put the United States really out
of step with the rest of the world. It's actually
put American makers, who were embracing it at a competitive
disadvantage in the world, certainly China, Electric Volkswagen World. We're

(56:55):
you know, we are paddling to third world status is
as hard as we can. Okay, what about self driving also, Uh,
their imminence has been greatly overstated. I would say they're
they're gonna come, but there's so many issues involved with

(57:18):
them that um it is uh, you know, they're they're
a lot further out. I mean, Tesla predicted that they
would have one in two thousands, seventeen and this year,
and it's now, it's going to be in a few months,
and they're still not as self driving as they were
supposed to be. You have to have a driver. A
lot of UH companies have have gone back to the

(57:40):
drawing board to think about it harder. Now there, I
think it will happen, but it is one of those
things that really leads you to wonder, like, you know,
is it really worth it in a in a in
a sort of scarcity environment, even with the huge deficits
were ready to run now, like, do we really want
to be investing what has to be trillions of dollars

(58:00):
in making it so people can like party in their car?
And um, well, I don't. Look, I don't have the
same perspective. I believe these things are inevitable. I believe
you'll call up a vehicle. No one will own a vehicle.
It's just about the time. Oh yeah, I'm not I'm
not saying that they're not. But the reality is is
that there are a lot of negative things about that.
An interesting analysis in Business Week saying yes, if we

(58:23):
go to driverless cars, they're gonna be some accidents and
they're gonna kill some people. But if you don't go
to driverless cars, which on some levels are much safer,
we're gonna kill more people because people are getting killed
and we're still gonna have to go through this. We will,
we will find out about that. I think the accidents
will be uh more spectacular in some ways. You know,

(58:44):
twelve hundred people exit the Jersey Turnpike to go to
the same parking spot McDonald's at a hundred and ten
miles an hour, then uh and six hundred people die.
But we'll we'll, we'll find out about that. Um and
I agree with you that it's gonna happen. But in
the process, what's getting short shrift is mass transit, Like
where's all the money for the subways to fix the

(59:06):
and build trains which remain more efficient. It's great if
everybody is in there little pod, but if you still
have everybody a little pod, there's still gonna be more
traffic and more energy consumption than there would be if
people rode a clean bus or a well, no one's
gonna ride the bus because it takes so long trains
are an interesting thing, certainly in the metropolis. They're not

(59:27):
being improved because no one wants to pay taxes. But
keep going here. How many cars do you presently own?
I own an embarrassingly large number, but somewhere around uh
twenty three I think, which is actually down from what
it was. But I have an excuse that. Um. I
started a picture car business in New York and uh,

(59:48):
which we hope to go national. We're working with the
classic car insurance company Haggardy UH and we've been doing
um um Mrs Mazel and uh Deduce and other TV
shows around. Anyway, we have a database of thousands of
cars and we supply old cars. So okay, but let's

(01:00:09):
forget their cars. You have twenty three cars? What are they?
They're nothing that I would recommend to. Uh, So what
are they people? UM? I have Launchia and some Fulvia
UM and a Flavia Uh that's dead. I have a
bunch of Poe's and mg s and uh Lotus Cortina

(01:00:31):
and Volvo old Volvos and um some Jaguars and uh
you know where are they're in? Uh in New York
back not in the city, but in a big garage
and a bunch of them are sort of in pieces
and shops around the area. Okay, and how does one
deal in terms of driving? How does the insurance work? Well?

(01:00:54):
Through Haggardy, But there's other carriers, there's Classic Car insurance.
It's very cheap. So for all those cars, the total
insurance bill is probably like four thousand bucks a year. Really, yeah,
because you know, you're their limitations on use. You could
only go miles a year. But like, yeah, I mean
I'm lucky if I get a thousand on on some

(01:01:14):
of them. Um, and uh, you can't you know, drive that.
You're not supposed to drive them to work. You're not
supposed to uh uh you know, um commuting them and
things like that. But uh but yeah, no, it's a
really it's a really sensible option for somebody to Okay,
so what's your test cars? I get a different car
dropped off every week to my house and they pick

(01:01:36):
it up at the end of the week. Every week,
every single week. Yeah, I probably drive like well, sometimes
they have two. It's like se I probably new cars
a year. I actually dropped off an Audi A seven
at the airport when I came here, and I'm picking
up a Jeep Gladiator, which is the new ge pick
up based on the Wrangler. When I get back to town,

(01:01:58):
let's assume you drive into one. Do you necessarily right
about each one? No? No, they don't care. Uh they might.
You know, there's certain cars like if you ask for
a nine eleven turbo and then didn't do anything, they'd
remember that. But who is they companies that to all
the companies they're all at the airport generally have a well,
they have fleet managers who are approximate to major cities

(01:02:23):
and often to airports. Uh. And they you know, they
drop them off, pick them up. They'll either drop him
at the airport, they'll pick up drop him at your house.
They'll pick up one before. So there's four or five
companies in New York that do that. So you deal
with them and the companies themselves. Okay, so what are
some companies? What are Since you drive so many cars,
your personal experience big winners, big losers? Uh? In what sense?

(01:02:49):
Personal satisfaction? Oh? Um? I love, I love um sports
cars that are uh, nimble and on the smaller side.
I love. My most exciting car of of two thousand
nineteen was the New Lotus of Oura GT for thirty
or something like that. Just awesome car. UM. I drove

(01:03:13):
a Ford that's been discontinued in America, the Fiesta RS
in France, uh in September for a week and it
was fabulous. And they made a terrible mistake and not
bring the car to America. In my view, um, you know,
better than the car that we had and loved before it. Um.

(01:03:34):
So those those were h two standouts. UM, but you know,
you drive some The new poll Star was very impressive. UM.
And you drive you know, I mean how you know
what gear head wouldn't want to drive a McLaren or Ferrari.
You know they're awesome. But uh so those have been great.
But I actually, um, I'm really interested in the bottom

(01:03:56):
end of the market, so I drive, you know, the
cheap cars too, and and I'm often really impressed by
Oh gosh. Uh. I really liked the Honda Clarity, which
is a hybrid. It's a hybrid. There's also a fuel
cell version, but in California, and they've sold six or
something like that. They don't really want to sell them.

(01:04:18):
Um and uh. I drove the new Civic Sin that
was pretty pretty fun. Um and UM gosh, Uh what else?
The M two was great? Uh? The BMW so yeah,
I mean there's I just had a The Jeep Wrangler

(01:04:40):
the other week, and I had initially lukewarm reaction to it.
I thought it was it was a lot better than
I thought. Actually, by coincidence, I was delivering to uh
the set of an Apple TV show a G sixty
three Galanda bag and Mercedes from two thou eighteen, which
is it's actually been updated and is better since that.

(01:05:01):
But in every respect except like straight it had speed
and the quality of the materials. The Jeep was more
pleasant than the Mercedes was, which cost trip all the money. Yeah,
but the Mercedes was always considered a joke. It was
you know, people bought those for status, but no one
ever said they were a smooth rod or a car
where they were wor smoother. Before somebody had the idea

(01:05:22):
of putting them on twenty three inch wheels with seven
hundred horsepower engine in them, which is just like the
stupidest idea in the world. People don't know about the
Glanda Vagum that it was actually the show of Iran's idea.
He went to Mercedes and said, if you could build
me something that was sort of like this. Um we
we we would buy them from me for our army,
and so they did. It was originally kind of a

(01:05:44):
military vehicle and then but it was much more more
austere and you know, sort of work vehicle. Then just
a style in vehicle. So are you a car person
or a music manager? First? Uh? I like to say
I divide my time music eight percent, uh cars. So

(01:06:06):
I have a fractured social life. My you know, my
family is often piste off at me because I'm in right,
I have to write, you know, at night or over
the weekend to make it happen. But they actually dovetail
really nicely. Um. I always remembered when I was managing
okay go um we were at Capitol Records, and you know,

(01:06:28):
the person who was really gonna make something happen was
the then president, Andy Slayter, who was you know, friendly
guy we uh we shared uh, a lawyer who was
a dear friend of both of ours. But he, you know,
he was a busy guy and and and had a
lot of stuff to do. And you know, in the
in the major label business, you know, how much attention

(01:06:50):
and executive can pay to you is you know is
you know, perhaps properly but but certainly typically is allocated
based on like how many records have you sold? And
if I just wanted to go in and talk to
him about my band, I might not get that much time.
But if I said, hey, Andy, you know at the
new DV nine aston outside and uh we could, I

(01:07:15):
could get him in the car for two or three
hours and you know we could we could talk some business. Um.
So that was often I found the job of the
manager's figure out what floated somebody's boat, and some people
were really into cars. And it was also just you know,
convenient because like, uh, I'd be getting flown out to

(01:07:35):
l A to a car launch and then I could
go meet all the labels that I probably wouldn't have
gotten to if it was up to my bands to
buy me a ticket or for me to buy my Okay,
so today, who are you working with? We're working with
they might be giants. Um. We work with a band
called the rad Traads, who are a rock and combo

(01:07:56):
largely out of New York. Right now, Uh that two brothers,
theve Adams um from Chicago. We were Cuban Americans or
the the kind of it was. It was their thing.
But um that's that's about it. Um and uh, I
probably spend less time doing that, and the people who

(01:08:17):
work in the management business spend more time doing a
lot of that stuff, a lot of stuff, and managing
bands is sort of ministerial. Um and uh I guess
I realized that, um, I really didn't have anymore what
it took to be going out to rock clubs at

(01:08:39):
one o'clock in the morning and East Brooklyn to see
bands that we're never gat a record deal, uh never
gat a publishing deal. And uh you know that life
was was you know, short enough that um I just
I just didn't have, uh that that to break. So

(01:09:02):
how did you get into music management to begin with? Um?
I was um uh Well, the the short, long story
is I went to an alternative high school, which was
the thing in the seventies, sort of a hangover from
Summer Hill and those experiments. And it was a public school,
but we had classes. We had some core teachers, but

(01:09:24):
we also had classes that were taught by townspeople in
the town of Leoni in New Jersey. As it happened,
the guy who a young or guy who rented the
house the cottage behind the house that was next door,
which was like a converted garage was a uh record
uh a. And our guy at Columbia, his name was

(01:09:47):
Tom Merman, who went on to be Mr Producer. Great
she did Nugent now runs A B and B in Massachusetts.
I've stayed there really Yeah, so in any case, he was, uh,
we we did this class. This is probably in nineteen
five or four, and um at the end of it,

(01:10:07):
he said, you know, there's like sixteen kids in this class,
and really only two of them have any business thinking
about a career in the music business. But you're one
of them. And uh so, um he was. He was
sort of was like halfway between my parents age and me,
and he was cool, you know, um and uh So.
I sort of took that to heart and kind of
kept my eyes and years open. I went I worked

(01:10:30):
at newspapers for a couple of years. After I got
out of college, I went to h law school, and
I guess the summer my first year in law school,
I was down in New York clerking um and uh
for the state Attorney General and uh a friend of
mine from college invited me to see this these guys.
He was working with, and it was the band they

(01:10:51):
might be Giants, who I thought were great. They were like,
if you took away the guest list, there were negative
three people. He was in Hell's Kitchen when it was
really shitty and uh um. But they reminded me of
the Everly Brothers. They sang incredible harmonies together, which was
super uncool incidentally when I was in high school to
be in the Everly Brothers, but I was. And I
also liked the Four Seasons and the Bgs and some

(01:11:13):
other things along with the more traditional fair um and
so I was kind of a harmony guy and I
could just see they had that, and so I sort
of made it my business to befriend them, and over
the next couple of years, while I was finishing law school,
UM I would give them free legal advice. And because
I sort of came from a media background, my dad

(01:11:34):
was television critic in New York for thirty seven years,
um I UM, and I had worked at newspapers. I
sort of understood how press worked and stuff like that,
and I kind of ended up getting like a permanent
ability to put people on their guest list. And uh
so I did that a lot and then while living
the rest of my life. And then um, I I

(01:11:58):
knew this guy. His name was Art Lugoff, who owned
a great famous jazz club in New York called the
Village Gate, and Um, he he was a neighbor and
friends sort of friends with my parents from the kind
of like kind of left journal scene in New York
and the Village Gate in the middle late nine eighties

(01:12:18):
was um suffering from the fact that interest in jazz
had really was declining, and he'd have shows that were
you know, I remember going to see the Dirty Dozen
Brass Band there and there were you know, like fifteen
Japanese tourists and me and my friend I was in.
So he was he was like one day he's like, hey, kid,
you know, if you if you didn't bring any in here,

(01:12:40):
you know, give me five hundred bucks in the bar
and it's yours. So I went to the Um John
and John from the MP Giants and said like, uh,
you know, we you know you're playing for a hundred
people a night in the Um East Village you know often, UM,
and you know you're you're selling out these shows, and
I think we could make a move to the West Village. Mean,
that's what a different time it was. And they they

(01:13:03):
were like, you know, and and we could go do
this show at the Village Gate and it wouldn't cost
us but five hundred bucks and then the rest of
the money's hours. And they were like, you know, you know,
if you want to do that, you can do that,
but we don't. We're not. We get a hundred and
fifty dollars at night, that's their deal, and pay us
a hundred fifty dollars and you know, you know, we'll
do We'll show up. So we uh. They're live. Sound

(01:13:27):
guy who was the friend who introduced me to them
and who ended up producing their first records. He he
agreed to go partner with me on this show and
we we you know, we took ads uh and it
was going well and then through no fall to our
own um the New York Times wrote a preview story
and we ended up um UM selling like, you know,
eight hundred tickets and at the end of the night

(01:13:48):
we were at backstage sitting there with um you know,
thousands and thou eight thousand dollars, seven thousand dollars something
like that, more money than I'd ever seen in my
life in in cash and Uh. I was like, you guys,
gotta take some of this money. And they were like, no,
you know, we've made a deal. It's a hundred fifty
dollars a night, which was very menshi of them. And

(01:14:09):
uh for and we had done two shows and uh,
but do you want to be a manager? And I
was like, yes, I do. So I had recently, Um,
I had clerk for a judge after law school. I
was the clerk for the Chief Justice of the New
Jersey Supreme Court, which was suddenly took a my mediocre
law career and made me really employable. And I had

(01:14:31):
the previous summer. Uh, Matt also started selling stories to
Automobile Magazine and I had persuaded them then and their owner,
Rupert Murdoch then to send me to every baseball park
in America and at Corvette Roadster in the summer of
eight six, culminating in uh the World Series between the

(01:14:53):
Mats and the Red Sox, which I got to see
it every game of which is awesome. I saw the
your game. I was there. Uh and um. But in
any case, UM, while I was doing that, I had
this epiphany. I had accepted a job back in New
York at a fancy firm, and I also accepted another
job working for the new Jersey State Attorney General. And uh,

(01:15:15):
I had to decide which when I was actually going
a job for, and then it had an epiphany that
I should show up for neither one. Pulled over the
side of the road in Utah and called from They
used to have pay phones that you could call from
your car, low pay phones, and I called and I
was like, I can't be there on Monday, and they
were like what, and you know, they were like Tuesday.
I was like, yeah, they were like Wednesday, and I think,

(01:15:37):
you know, actually never, so I never uh took those jobs.
I came back and within a few months I was
managing them might be giants and that went so well that, uh,
you know, I ended up managing bands, which had it
not gone well, I would have been out of the
music business probably, And uh, the great thing is is

(01:15:58):
that they continued to do amazing. Well. They've just put
a tour up which is their best quickest selling tour
in their entire career, which is awesome. You know, they
get you know, millions of streams a month, and uh,
you know, they have the most uh, and that was
sort of the inside I had about them was that
they would have a career as long as they felt

(01:16:18):
like having a career. And and they've at many stages,
you know, I've not agreed necessarily with their choices, which
they like. They were kind of things they could have
done that were the conventional wisdom, you should do this,
you should open for this shitty band because you'll get
in front of you know, ten thousand people a night
instead of one thousand or two thousand. And they just

(01:16:39):
just did you know, they pleased themselves. They're they're really
I mean, you're right about this all the time. But
they were totally real artists and they didn't care. They
weren't associated with any haircut or clothes style or stuff
like that. So it was like they never wasn't like
they were going to go out of style because they
were an in style. And uh, they have a rabid
fan base you know, around the world, so they you know,

(01:17:01):
they tour Europe successfully, in Japan and Australia, and uh,
it's been great. I've I've between that and writing about cars,
I've seen the world and um, you know, I feel
pretty great that it was like, you know, my personality development,
Um kind of was arrested at the age of twelve,

(01:17:22):
and I have been able to spend my life going
to rock shows and um driving cars. So you know,
I wish I was I was heavier. So you have
like decades where they might be giants. That is rare.
How come they didn't fire you or have never gone on.
I think in part there because they you know, uh,

(01:17:42):
we liked each other. But I think, uh, you know,
I didn't really you know, make you know, like real
prima Donna stands that if they didn't do what I
wanted them to do. I think, you know, I was
I was like there, Bill Barr, you know I did.
I was there ko you know, I did what they
wanted to get done. And um, I was good at

(01:18:05):
the business part of it, having been to law school
and knowing about licenses in the early days we were
you know, it was in with with indie labels. Go
like c D rights. No, it doesn't say in this
contract that you have the right to make this new
thing called a c D. And people go like what
you know, and you go like, yeah, and I went
to law school too, so I must be true and

(01:18:27):
they go, oh, ship And I remember going to like
rough trade in England to get their first album put overseas,
and they were like, here's a contract you'll have. Your
lawyer looked that. I was like, oh, I am a lawyer,
and they'd go like, here, don't take this contract and
so uh uh so we they were just uh uh
So we were able to you know, back in the

(01:18:48):
days where there were territories and things like that, we
were able to license stuff over and over again. And
I was also I think they're most ardent cheerleader. So
you know when Birdhouse and Your Soul was it was
a top ten hit in England, that was down to us.
You know, it was down to it being a great song,
but it wouldn't have been the only great song that

(01:19:09):
got ignored before. Um and so that was something that
I never worked with bands that I didn't like, but
um uh, if I really believed in it, it would
put me in a good position to advocate for it.
So we managed the band the Laws that had the
great hit there she goes. But and you know, I
really liked the president of London Records. He's a great guy,

(01:19:30):
but he was like, how do I know this? It
wasn't Roger was actually a gentleman named Peter Cupkey still
who's sweet guy actually had tried to side the name
of Giants to Atlantic and um, but he was you know,
he was necessarily nervous because that was the mood at
PolyGram and he was like, well, how do I know
it's It's like, how do you know it's a hit?

(01:19:51):
I mean like, this is probably one of the greatest
songs ever and it's of course it's a hit, and
it's already hit in England, so like, you know, that's
pretty easy to figure out. And so yeah, and it
was a hit and not as big a hit as
it should have been, but uh, because they didn't want
to spend the money on top forty radio and stuff
like that. And of course the laws were insane themselves,

(01:20:13):
but which didn't make it any easier. But that was
you know, I mean like believing in something. Uh is
you know that that right off the bat makes the
difference between of effective manager and ineffective one. I think, Um,
they you know, but they were the John's were always uh,

(01:20:34):
you know, we worked with a lot of great bands.
We've managed the Meat Puppets and Yola Tango and uh,
the Laws we did Edwyn Collins when he had to
hit the United States. We just looked after him in
the States, and uh Fredy Johnston, who was great. And
so why is it in because you know, for most
managers it ends at some point, what's what happens there? Uh? Well, uh,

(01:20:55):
in a couple of cases, Uh, basically, uh, people decided
to manage themselves. Uh. Really a terrible mistake. I mean
I'm always like, you know what, like find another manager,
Let's find you a good manager that you like better.
But h but don't not manage yourself. That's you know,

(01:21:16):
it's just like the the if a manager is not
making their fifteen or uh for you, you know, it's
like it's rare. I mean, that would be a really
bad All it takes is somebody to call up and say,
you know for a baby band, you know, you want
five hundred bucks for this gig, or we'll give you
five hundred bucks. You get it up to seven fifty dollars,

(01:21:37):
you've paid for your commission and then so uh, it's
it's really shortsighted. There's also too many jobs for a
band to do. If if they think that they have
the time to keep their books and to book their
gigs and do all this ministerial work that is, you know,
get the visas and stuff like that. Then you know,

(01:21:59):
that is anti art, that's the anti creativity. And so
that was one of the things with the Johnson I
think they were I was liberating to them, is I
was like, quit your fucking jobs, you know, like that
was like the first thing that they did when they
got a manager, even though they had been successfully running
their own operation. That's one reason that it kept going

(01:22:20):
is that, I mean, they're both like brilliant guys, but um,
one of them in particular was just like I mean,
he he was indefatigable and and they really really wanted it,
and he and they wanted it on their terms. And
when I meet bands where there's no you know, but
nobody has megalomaniacal tendencies, nobody thinks that the world will

(01:22:44):
be a sadder place if they're not in front of
three thousand people or ten thousand people, you know, shaking
their ass um then there's a band that's probably not
going anywhere. You know. It takes that in in so
many areas of life, somebody who really really really really
really cares and they don't if you want to tell
me I suck. You know you're wrong. You know I'll

(01:23:06):
prove to you you're wrong. And that's you know, obviously,
being on kind of a left of center artists, there's
lots of people who want to tell you you suck,
even when you know minutes after they tell you that
they did it. You know, I remember trying to sign
them to a major label after they've had success at
alternative radio and MTV and people calling, oh, those guys,

(01:23:28):
I I love them even when I hated them, you know,
or uh and so yeah, okay, before we go, just
a couple of quick car questions. Bentley's Rolls Royce worth
it unique cars basically gussied up Volkswagen. What do we
got there? Well, I mean they are, uh well, Rolls

(01:23:48):
Royce is a gussied at BMW and Bentley's guess a
volks It. The thing is is that Volkswagen and BMW
are you know, among, if not the greatest UH car
companies in the world, and so their technology when they
let you pull out all the stops is pretty awesome. Um,
you know, it's it's it's sort of perverse that these

(01:24:10):
two English companies were bought by Germans, right, uh, but
and they very much um, you know, try to preserve
parts of their Britishness. But at the same time, you know,
you feel German all over them, which is you know,
that's really no bad thing. But as I say, for
your money, are you getting something? No, I think really

(01:24:33):
somewhere probably now I used to say fifty thousand, but
now it's probably more like seventy or eighty thousand. You
stop really getting any benefit other than whatever the perceived
status advantages or things like that. Okay, let's go to
the other end. The Ferraris, Lamborghinis, McLaren's. What's the best
of that? ILK, I probably, I probably like the Ferraris

(01:24:57):
the best. But they're all so much more competent and
and reliable and safe than they were. But they're just
you know, uh, to me, they don't they're not really
what UM turns me on and I find as there.
You know, they used to be quite rare, and now
you know they they've been bought by companies that have
the ability to sell five thousand of them a year

(01:25:18):
instead of you know, three hundred or nine hundred or
two thousand. UM that they're they're common and to me
they're just kind of a little embarrassing. Um. The I
was in Hamburg with a friend who's a car guy
who's driving me around, and he said, I'm gonna take
you to Russian Street and I was like, what's Russian Street.

(01:25:39):
He's the street where all the Lamborghinis are. And they're
all these you know, like you know, rich Russians, you know,
and you know, hanging out in front of their Lamborghinis
and they did you know, and you see that in London,
um on the Edgeware Road, you see, you know, the
the mirror plated Lamborghinis and and uh Ferraris and you

(01:26:00):
know it's just you know, it's just it's just vulgar
really to me. But you know, I I celebrate automotive diversity,
and you know, I think whatever people want to do,
you know, uh, for the time being, that's what they
ought to do, you know, any future for Aston Martin
Busin this week this week we're just talking about the

(01:26:20):
stock is. Yeah. Well, you know it's it's they have
a really bold plan, which is you know, one part real,
you know, two parts fairy dust. So uh, I think
they're they're smart guys, and you know, it's really it's
given how you know, you know, all these companies like

(01:26:41):
to the fact that they survived. I've survived. Aston Martin
has been around almost a hundred years and you know
they've never sold that many cars, Uh, is a miracle
and um and so you know, I kind of wish
them all the best. Building a brand that that means anything,
you know, that's that's a multibillion dollar undertaking. If you
were to try now, you know, twenty billion dollars wouldn't

(01:27:03):
be even to begin to be enough to to actually
make a brand that anyone cared about. And then you
know they wouldn't care about it the way they care
about Aston Martin. So I always say brand is a
terrible thing to waste, and I think that, um, they
you know, I wish them every success. And you know,
the difficulty is is that as technology changes that the

(01:27:24):
investments that are required to be relevant are phenomenal. So
what you see, you know, Aston has partnered a lot
with Mercedes to use a lot of their engines and
you know, various things and when it comes to autonomous
cars and electric power, so you're gonna see I think,
you know, though, they will become effectively parts of bigger
cod Okay, what's the next merger. Well, the one that is,

(01:27:48):
it's been they're working towards it is the U P
s A, which is Burgo and f C A, which
is Fiat Chrysler. So P s A is now UH
Persia Sito and um um Opal which they bought from
General Motors and ironically um it turned to profit after

(01:28:09):
twenty losing years within six months of being got uh
so um that that's going to be a big one.
That will create the world's fourth largest carmaker. That's exciting
to contemplate for fans of any of those brands that
are are planning to come back to the United States.
Um okay, but it's like, say, well, we see further

(01:28:30):
and further consolidation. I think we will. In Japan, there's
pretty much the Toyota orbit, which is UM Toyota, Subaru,
uh Suzuki I think is working with them, and UH
Mazda is also doing a lot of stuff with Toyota.
And then there's the Nissan world, which is Nissan and Mitsubishi,
UM and UH. I think that those companies could end

(01:28:54):
up being intertwined more. And I think that, yeah, I
think that that we could see. I think it wouldn't
be the weirdest thing in the world to see the
American companies end up merging with somebody else. I think
they should survive. Okay, lightning round, don't don't evade this
small car. What do you recommend? Well, I like the golfs,

(01:29:18):
even though they're canceling the regular golf for America. Okay,
that's any answer. Next step up Sedan Oh uh gag
uh in the in the low priced realm. I like
Monster six is um in higher priced realm, I would
be happy with Hey, probably with the E class Mercedes. Okay,

(01:29:42):
more luxurious. Um. I really liked the X Jays Jaguar,
which is also canceled but coming back as an electric
car in a year or two. But more luxurious than that.
He's he's he's uh no in that category. Other than

(01:30:04):
the jack Bars, it's more like serious. Uh. Oh golly, um,
I wish I was more inspired right now, I can't.
I can't say I'm not. I'm not really um um, Well,

(01:30:27):
I would never see myself only one. Uh. There's something
about the Rolls Royce Phantom that I find. It's it's
more bespoke than the Bentley's So I sort of prefer that,
and it's getting redone any second. Uh, But so I
would say, you know, for the for the big fuck
you car, I'd say, there's you know, nothing says fuck

(01:30:48):
you quite so loudly as a phantom. And there we
have it. Jamie Kentman, automobile expert music manager for decades. Jamie,
thanks so much for being Until next time, it's Bob
left S

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