Jay Cooper

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast.
My guest today is Jay Cooper. Jay, you called me
about your old client, Rod Temperton, right, I was writing
about Quincy Jones. Can you tell me more about Rod?

Speaker 2 (00:24):
Yes. Rod was originally a member of heat Wave that
I represented, who had a number of major hits and
most of them were written by Rod Temperton. And I
was representing heat Wave, and then Rod, when he left
heat Wave, retained me to continue his representation of him

(00:47):
as a songwriter. Well, it was a heat Wave. He
wrote Boogie Knights and Always in Forever a number of
other hits. And then evidently Quincy Jones had heard of
these records and he was doing an album with Michael Jackson,
and he called. I got a hold of Rod. Rod

(01:10):
told me about it, came over here into Los Angeles,
and Quincy hired him to come here and to do
an album with Michael Jackson. And that album turned out
to be the songs that Rod wrote for it.

Speaker 1 (01:30):
So like back in the day with heat Wave, how'd
you get clients? Were you actively searching or once you
made your name they came to you.

Speaker 2 (01:40):
I never actively searched, exactly but they came to be.
They were recommended to be by producer in London whose
name at the moment I don't remember.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
Let's go back to the beginning. Did you always plan
to be an entertainment attorney.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
No, I planned to be a musician from the time
I was a little kid. I wanted to be a musician,
That's all I wanted. I studied music from the time
I was three years old. My father was a musician,
and I was ready when I finished high school to
go off and to get on the road with a band.

(02:20):
And my parents said, no, no, you My parents were Jewish.
Of course, that means you have no choice. You have
to go to law school or medical school. So they
introduced me to a lawyer and they said, okay, I'll
go to law school, but I got to find a
music school too, So I founded DePaul University in Chicago,

(02:40):
where I grew up, and I had a music school
of law school, and it turned out they were in
the same building, so it was perfect. I did my
law classes in the morning and my music classes in
the afternoon, and I worked my way through school playing music,
playing with various bands and things like that. The Chicago
area and I finished law school, took the bar exam.

(03:05):
It was three days and day four I left with
the band and ultimately came to California. And I was
working here in California as a musician for a number
of years, and eventually that's the story I've told a
long time. How I got into law was through drugs.
What this was My music friends were getting busted for

(03:28):
possession and I was the only one they knew who
had a law degree, and so they asked me to
see if I could help them out. So I took
the bar exam and started doing helping them with their
drug cases. And while I was doing drug cases, they said,
can you read this record contract? Can you read this
television contract? Can you read this movie contract? So I

(03:49):
opened a little office in Beverly Hills, and that's where
I started.

Speaker 1 (03:54):
Okay, so what were this what were you know, marijuana?
I won't say it's exactly legal, but close to it
in California. What was it like in the fifties.

Speaker 2 (04:04):
Well, it was, it was It was not bad. It
was nothing particularly wrong. Musicians many were on marijuana, some
were on hard drugs. Bands used to have like four
different kinds of musicians and they would have the hard
drug musicians, the marijuana musicians, the drinker musicians, and the

(04:28):
straits who did nothing. And so when you lost the
trombone player, you had to find somebody. You had to
find somebody who fit in that category with the tron
buempare also a druggie or was he also a drinker
or was he something else? So musicians were not at

(04:49):
that time, and I don't and I guess since they
were not. They didn't carry guns, they didn't carry knives,
they weren't violent. They they were more i would say,
more mellow and interested in their in their careers and
their their horns than they were in anything else.

Speaker 1 (05:08):
Now, you said your father was a musician. Was he
a full time musician at one time? Yes, he was,
And tell me more about his career.

Speaker 2 (05:16):
He was. He was a marvelous musician. He was in
a very famous band called the Wayne King Orchestra. They
were from the They used to play the Aragon Ballroom
in Chicago. They had a weekly broadcast from there, and
he was the lead saxophone player and the singer in
that and he did that for many years.

Speaker 1 (05:36):
Okay. And you started taking music lessons as young.

Speaker 2 (05:39):
Age, Yes, they're three years old.

Speaker 1 (05:42):
Three years old?

Speaker 2 (05:43):
Three years old?

Speaker 1 (05:45):
What the piano at three?

Speaker 2 (05:47):
No, My father gave me a little soprano saxophone, a
very small little sopran which I still have to this day.
And I played it for a year or two till
my teeth fell out. And while I was waiting for
my teeth to grow in, I went to piano, and

(06:08):
then eventually to clarinet, and then back to saxophone, and
then added flute over the years.

Speaker 1 (06:14):
And what instrument did he play?

Speaker 2 (06:17):
He played saxophone, he played saxophone, and he played trumpet,
and he played clarinet.

Speaker 1 (06:22):
And do you have any siblings?

Speaker 2 (06:25):
I had a sister, yes, And was she older younger?
She was younger, seven years or five years younger, But
she never was a performer.

Speaker 1 (06:34):
Okay, So in this era, in the thirties and forties,
you're playing your instrument at home? Are you playing out
with school bands, bands and halls? What's it like?

Speaker 2 (06:46):
Well, of course I was in high school. I was
in the school band, I was in the school orchestra,
I was in the pep band, I was in the
marching band. I was doing all of that, doing my studies. Uh,
and then uh, forming bands outside. We would play the
local the local park houses and all that. The parks

(07:11):
all had a building where you could have dances and
things like that. And that's what I was doing, and
that I was playing weddings and playing dances and playing
various things of that nature. Yeah, enough to make a
living to pay my way through school.

Speaker 1 (07:28):
And what kind of music were you playing?

Speaker 2 (07:31):
Big band type music or big band a lot or
play small bands and weddings? I played Polish weddings, Jewish weddings,
Greek weddings, Italian weddings, played them all. We played the
polkas at the at the the Polish weddings, we played

(07:52):
seven eight time music. In Greek weddings, we played all
the Jewish music, the Klasberg type of music. Played anything.

Speaker 1 (08:04):
And were you playing in multiple acts multiple bands?

Speaker 2 (08:08):
Was there one multiple multiple? I was a free lance musician.
I'll take any call.

Speaker 1 (08:14):
Was the union involved at all at that time?

Speaker 2 (08:16):
Yes? I joined. I would remember the union by fifteen.

Speaker 1 (08:19):
Yes, now the union is almost irrelevant. But was the
union in control? Everybody worked were a member of the union.

Speaker 2 (08:26):
Back then, everybody worked through the union because they paid
you had minimum minimum per minimum salaries per gig that
you played, and that's where you got all your jobs.
You went down to the union like on Saturday afternoon
and you hung around and somebody say, hey, we're looking
for a saxophone player for Saturday night. I'm looking for

(08:48):
this for Sunday night. I'm looking for this. And that's
how you got your jobs.

Speaker 1 (08:53):
So you said you graduated from law school, you took
the bar, and then you immediately went on the road.
Tell me about that.

Speaker 2 (08:59):
Yeah, I got it. The first thing was I got
a call from a band called Larry Fhoteen. He was
an originally he had his own band. He was an
original arranger, I should say, for the Sammy Kay Orchestra.
And we went to New York, worked around, worked the
East coast. We were drove in cars, three or four

(09:23):
separate cars a group of us, and we were working
the west East coast. And then I got a call
from the band called Henry Bussey band that was a
big band in the days. Henry Bussy was originally a
first trumpet player for the Paul Whitebolt Orchestra, and then
he had an orchestra. He was based out of Los Angeles,

(09:47):
and I got a call they lost their elite outdo
player the Midwest. So I was doing a record date
in Cincinnati at that time with the Larry Foteen band,
and so I called around to see if I get
a sub for me, and I found a sub, and
I called my parents. They drove the sub down to
Cincinnati where I was, and they drove me to where

(10:12):
I had to meet the band with Henry Bussey band.
And two weeks later that same year, I was in
California and I said, this is for me.

Speaker 1 (10:25):
So how did this band know of you?

Speaker 2 (10:29):
Well, I was recommended by another saxophone player. I guess
he got the call and he didn't want to go out,
and so he recommended me somebody I hadn't met at
Depault at music school.

Speaker 1 (10:42):
So, okay, you're in Los Angeles, then what goes on?

Speaker 2 (10:46):
I'm in Los Angeles and now, of course I'm looking
for work and I did so many people except the band.
I arrived and I used to go down with my
horn to the Musicians Union, which was at eight seventeen
Vine Street in those days. I go there every day

(11:07):
with mount horns to practice because I was living in
a little apartment in Hollywood and you couldn't practice your
instruments there, so I would walk a mile to a
local forty seven on Vine Street. I practiced my horns,
and then they also had rehearsal rooms there. And then
one of the bands heard me playing practicing and they said, hey,

(11:30):
we need an alto player. So I joined that band.
It was a rehearsal band, and you met a lot
of musicians, with a lot of great musicians there through
the rehearsal band. Because we used to we used to
play charts for all the arrangers used to bring in
their charts try them out, and so we got to
know all the arrangers. I got to know all these musicians,

(11:51):
and I started getting calls for work and I would
go out with I'd go out with Nat Cole, I'd
go out with Bobby Darren. I was out with Frank
Sinatra for quite a while. I was out with I
went out with the Less Brown Band. I went out
with the Charlie Charlie Barnett band. I was part of

(12:13):
Baited Ferguson's band, and I did a lot of Latin bands.
I was playing Latin bands and used to Sunday night
on I had the Palladium Bowroom in La used to
have five six bands doing Latin Night. On Sunday, you'd
have two thousand of latinos dancing. It was incredible and

(12:36):
sometimes I'd play with four of the five bands. It
was just a great time. There was lots of opportunity.
There was ballrooms everywhere in La. There was jazz clubs,
there was every studio had full symphony orchestras. So you
had seven full time symphony orchestras in the studios. You
had three networks, they all had full time orchestras. And

(12:59):
there was clubs everywhere, so there were opportunities to play.
Was enormous. I was became the I was the benefactor
of that, and so the beneficiary I should say.

Speaker 1 (13:10):
Once you were in La, did you go on the
road again or did you stay?

Speaker 2 (13:13):
Yes? Yes, I would go out and go out and
come back. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (13:16):
So what was it like being on the road in
the fifties as opposted today?

Speaker 2 (13:20):
Well, I can't tell you about the road today, but
I can tell you about it then. It was. It
was fine, It was there was rarely any problems of
any sort. You would go out for three weeks, four weeks,
five weeks and then come back. You know, Uh, you
worked in the big ballrooms. There were ballrooms. Every every
city had ballrooms right either inside the city or on

(13:42):
the outskirts of the city, or and you had theaters
where they you would play between the movies. You would
you would be on the stage and the movie theater
played between that. Or the big dance halls. Every every
city had a big dance hall somewhere. And it was
wonderful to keep running into run into other bands. And

(14:03):
one of the great things was one time I was
with the Less Brown Band and we were in I
think it was may have been Salt Lake, I'm not
positive at the moment, but we were in the hotel.
And of course, when you're on the bus and all that,
you're dressing your jeans, your shirt, you're kind of ragged

(14:28):
and all that, particularly when you're driving three miles four
hundred miles a day. And we were a bunch of
us were standing outside when we're at this hotel, and
here comes the Count Basie band pulling up the stay
of the same hotel. They all got off the bus
in suits and times they looked like they just they

(14:49):
just were dressed for the case. It was just wonderful
to see. It was a great time. It was a
great time, Okay.

Speaker 1 (14:56):
The rock and roll musicians wanted to go on the
road to meet the girls, to do drugs. Was it
the same in your era?

Speaker 2 (15:05):
No, No, it was, it was I suppose there will
always be some of those. There were certainly a number
of people on hard drugs and things like that. But no,
we were all there for the music. We were there
for the music, not for the girls. Uh. We were
there for the music, definitely, okay.

Speaker 1 (15:26):
And what was it like being Jewish on the road.

Speaker 2 (15:30):
Nothing, You didn't know you were Jewish or anything else.

Speaker 1 (15:34):
And what about when you had toured with black musicians?

Speaker 2 (15:36):
What was that like? Oh, well, you had to be
you had to be very careful where you would stay.
But there was no there was no no particular, no
particular problem. The problem with when black musicians at that
time was they had to live with what they called
the Green Book, which I'm sure you know about, which
was the list of places where they could stay, where

(15:57):
they could eat. Uh. And so that was always difficult.
But uh, that was always difficult, probably still difficult to
this day. Other than that, it was generally generally fine.
We you know, you knew what hotels to stay at
you knew where they were where. It was acceptable to

(16:18):
have musicians and things like that, but generally that time
there was not a lot of them. There was a
crazy craziness going on with in the bands. It was
there was pretty pretty normal. People were pretty serious about
what they were doing.

Speaker 1 (16:34):
So what would you and the other band members do
when you were not on stage, when you were on
the bus or in the hotel room? How would you
pass the time?

Speaker 2 (16:43):
Uh? Well, I always sat in the back of the bus.
The leader always had in the front of the bush.
The girl singer always had in the front of the bus.
Uh So everybody had their place where they use They said,
I like to sit in the back. You read, you read,
you're looking to see, you talk to you, talk to
your friends. Nothing dramatic, nothing dramatic.

Speaker 1 (17:07):
Okay. So from the time that you came to Los
Angeles till you opened your office, how long a period
of time was that?

Speaker 2 (17:17):
About three or four years, I guess.

Speaker 1 (17:19):
Okay. So in that three or four years, excuse me,
you were practicing.

Speaker 2 (17:24):
No law, no, not at all whatsoever.

Speaker 1 (17:28):
Okay. So you have these friends, they get into varying
scraps with drugs. You're a newbie lawyer, So how do
you figure out how to defend them?

Speaker 2 (17:39):
You do a lot of quick reading. It was it
was fairly simple. Let me take an example. There was
a lot of clubs on Sunset Boulevard, amongst other places.
So I be playing that. There was the Macambo, there
was Ciro's, there was the Crescendo, there was the Interlude.
There was a number of clubs there, amongst other places,

(18:01):
of course, all around the city. So let's say we
were working at the Macombo, all the clubs, everything closed
to two in the morning. At two in the morning,
we will be packing up. The cops would be backstage
and they say to the to the guy, open up
your case. Okay. They opened the cases, so there'd be

(18:23):
some drugs in it. Musicians didn't. It was easy for
the cops because musicians didn't carry knives, they didn't carry guns,
they didn't resist the rest. They weren't violent. So they
were giving it a rest document and saying you got
the peer in court at such and such a time.

(18:45):
It was clearly illegal search and seizure. There was a
motion we used to make at that time called nine
nine to five. I don't know what it's called today,
and we may go down to the court and make
a motion of illegal search and season probable cause to
accost them, and we walk out the door. And usually

(19:06):
I'd walk out the door with a contract or motion
picture contract or a television contract or some kind of
contract to review. And so I studied a lot.

Speaker 1 (19:17):
Okay, how long after you started practicing law did you
stop playing music professionally?

Speaker 2 (19:24):
Probably another seven eight years something like that.

Speaker 1 (19:31):
Well, really, so, did you think that you were living
the dream in your music career or was there a
rung above that you were trying to reach.

Speaker 2 (19:41):
Well, my rung was to be a studio musician, to play,
to play record and all that. And I was starting
to get a lot of very good work in town.
I was achieving it. And then I was trying to
to do both. I was trying to do the loan,

(20:01):
I was trying to do music. So one day, when
I was driving home, I fell asleep at the wheel.
Fortunately I was not in a bad accident, and I realized,
I have to make a choice. I can't continue to
do both.

Speaker 1 (20:19):
And how hard was it to give up the music? Emotionally?

Speaker 2 (20:23):
Very difficult?

Speaker 1 (20:24):
And when you stopped, did you continue to play your
horn or did you put it down because it was
too painful to play?

Speaker 2 (20:31):
No. I continued to play my horn. I continued to
do things not quite as much, and I would join
some local My training was, my training was my teachers
were in Chicago Siphony, so my training, my training was
classical music. So I started to do with local community

(20:54):
orchestras and things like that, which I continued to do
for a long time.

Speaker 1 (21:05):
Okay, so you're in Beverly Hills, you have your office.
What's the legal landscape like that? Are you a party
of one? Are there ten people like you? The big
law firms predate this. What's it like?

Speaker 2 (21:17):
Well, I couldn't get a job because I was not
ready to give up my music. I was looking around
for a place. So I was trying to figure out
what to do. And so I got a little space.
It was an ad in the trades, and I got
a space for services. So I said, okay, I went

(21:39):
to this place on South Beverly Drive in Beverly Hills,
and I got a little office. I would have to
render certain services, like going to court for the attorney
there that I worked for a name with Lou Most
and he would pay me twenty five dollars a court appearance,
but I would have a little office I can work
out of. He never paid me the twenty five dollars,

(22:00):
so I lasted for a couple of years and then
left and got another office on my own. In the meantime,
I was continued to work and I started to work
with the La Philharmonic and I did that for six years.
Along with this, I was doing there playing their saxophone
work and for instance, like pictures that an exhibition with

(22:23):
the symphony, the balo, revels, bleo and things like that
with a saxophone with them. And then for Pop Knights,
I would play saxophone and clarinet for them with them
with the La Philharmonic, I was doing that and that
was terrific. Alongside while I was while I started by
practice of law, and I was doing some record dates

(22:44):
here and there and things of that nature. So I
was doing both until it became impossible.

Speaker 1 (22:50):
And was there enough work because you were constantly in
contact with people.

Speaker 2 (22:54):
Yeah, there was enough work. That was enough work.

Speaker 1 (22:57):
So now you put down your horn profession and you're
one hundred percent of lawyer. What goes on?

Speaker 2 (23:03):
Then? Well, okay, so I I had another, a second
little office on my own while I was going along,
and then I had moved to another one. I practiced,
started to get busy, and then I decided I only

(23:26):
wanted to do entertainment law and I didn't want to
do I was doing what they call door law. The
door law is whatever comes in the door. I did divorces,
I did adoptions, I did taxes, I did personal injury cases.
I did a zoning case. I did a murder case.

(23:49):
I did a robbery case, and I did I was
doing contract television contracts, mostly picture contracts. So one day
I said, I'm just want to do the entertainment stuff.
So I hired my first lawyer and I said, you're
going to do everything I don't want to do. And

(24:10):
that was Chuck Hurwitz. Eventually became Cooper and Hurwitz, and
after that it became Cooper Epstein at Hurwitz. Epstein was
somebody who had his own firm across the hall from
us in Beverly Hills, and he was looking to change

(24:31):
his situation and he came over with us with a
couple of attorneys and we started our little firm a
Cooper Epstein. Herwits the seven lawyers, we eventually grew to
about fifty.

Speaker 1 (24:44):
Jumping way ahead, how do you transfer from Cooper Epstein
and Hurwitz to Greenberg Towing where you are?

Speaker 2 (24:51):
Now? Sure? Our firm was about fifty Cooper Epstein at
Hurwitz and we were kind of in the middle. The
firms that I thought were great were much bigger or
much smaller, and so I went looking for a merger
or partner for us, and I found a firm ment

(25:14):
at Phelps and Phillips that they were interested in us.
Not everybody wanted to go, so we closed down. I
went there with about fifteen lawyers. It was not for me.
I discovered it as soon as I got there. This
wasn't for me for a lot of personal reasons which
I won't go into. It's a good firm with very

(25:36):
good lawyers, but it just didn't fit. It didn't fit me,
all right. I didn't fit it one or the other.
And out of the blue, Out of the blue, I
get a call from Larry Hoffman, who was one of
the founders of the firm ris. The fir was Greenberg
Troway Hoffman. I called me and said, we just opened

(25:57):
in California, which they did. That year, and we're looking
for somebody to start to our entertainment practice. You want
to come. Since I had only moved one time and
the idea of moving it was a bore to me,
I said, I don't think so. So he talked to
me as a company taking a trip, which they wanted

(26:18):
to send me at first class to the New York
office or Miami office and bring a friend of yours
and come and take a look at us. So I did.
I was impressed. I was impressed with a firm. I
was impressed with what they were doing. I had the lawyer,
the quality of lawyers. I came back, and the idea

(26:40):
of moving again was somewhat a boring to me, so
I said no. I said, well, think about it. So
I did. And as my life at the men at
Phelps was not great as far as I've concerned, what

(27:03):
I felt over there, and I was feeling really bad,
I said, I don't know if I could stay here.
I finally called Larry back after about six months, and
I said, Larry, you're still interested. He says, yes, come over,
he says, and bring and get whoever you want. So
I came, and I started calling the people who had

(27:24):
worked with me and for me my previous life, and
they started coming one by one and including my including
my partner, I Rapstein, and a whole bunch of them
came and I've been with the firm ever since. It's
an incredible firm. The broad knowledge and experience and quality

(27:46):
of lawyer here is phenomenal. It's a big firm, but
doesn't function like a big firm as far as we're concerned,
and I treat our department as a boutique that sits
in a big firm. They have made the experience quite well,
quite excellent. You feel like they're giving you the reins

(28:12):
and saying you run with it. It's yours. And that's
how it's been.

Speaker 1 (28:17):
So how many years at Manat and how many years
at Greenberg DrAk.

Speaker 2 (28:22):
I was a man at about six to seven, I
can't remember exactly. And here I've been here about twenty
years a little over.

Speaker 1 (28:29):
Okay. So when you had fifty with Cooper, Epstein and Horoitz,
fifty attorneys, and you said you either had to be
smaller or larger, what are the advantages of now being
with a larger firm?

Speaker 2 (28:44):
The advantage of being larger firm than I found here
is the expertise that you can find. There's an x.
They have an expert on everything. I don't care what
it is. You can send out emails I need an
expert on horse maneur in Colorado, and you'll get fifty
year responses. I'm exaggerating slightly, obviously, but there's an expert

(29:10):
on everything here. The quality of lawyer is phenomenal. The
willingness to share and help is phenomenal. They give you
the reins and they say it's yours. You do what
you want to do. They're not telling you how to practice,
they're not limiting your abilities to practice. Be straight, but

(29:32):
follow the law, do what to do, it's right, be honest,
and they give you the tools. And that's all anybody
can ask.

Speaker 1 (29:43):
And what's it like working for somebody else? Is supposed
to working for yourself.

Speaker 2 (29:50):
I feel like I'm working for myself. I don't feel
like I'm working for somebody else. If you want to
know the truth.

Speaker 1 (29:56):
Okay, so what year did you merge with Epstein and Herwitz?
When when did that happen?

Speaker 2 (30:02):
Ha? Well, I didn't merge with it. I mean I
chuck Herwitz. I hired I told you he works for me,
and I made him that. I made him a partner.
We merged with he had about three lawyers. What year
would that be It would take me a while to
compute that. I can't remember. But let's say I've been

(30:26):
here twenty some odd years. I was in mentat about
six to seven years and see ten years there. Probably
we were together previously twenty twenty five years.

Speaker 1 (30:45):
I would say, okay, so now you're practicing law. Music
is unfortunately just a hobby. And you say, you hire
Chuck Herwitz to do the stuff walks in. It's not entertainment.
How broad is your entertainment practice? How much is television
movies music?

Speaker 2 (31:07):
Fifty percent is music and fifty percent would be television
and motion picture.

Speaker 1 (31:11):
And has it continued like that?

Speaker 2 (31:13):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (31:15):
And for the uninitiated, what is the difference in those
two areas. What's the difference in terms of how do
you see it in terms of the music business in
the movie business.

Speaker 2 (31:26):
Yeah, I can tell you. I could tell you that
straightforward way, which is, in order to be an entertainment
lawyer in these fields, you have to know the business
of what you're in. You have to know the business
of the motion picture business. The business of television, the
business of music. In other words, you have to know

(31:47):
in record business, how records are made, how they're distributed,
what the wholesale is, what retail is, where the money
is flowing from? What a licensing of the music rights?
What is it costs for all of that? Uh is
a What does a record company earn when they sell
a record or today when they're licensing streaming services? What

(32:11):
do they get? What are the deals? Same thing in
motion pictures and television you have to know what does
the director get. What are the fees for directors? What
are the fees for producers? What are the fees for writers?
What does it cost to get an actor? What are
the residuals? What are net profits? What are adjusted gross profits?

(32:32):
What are the deductions can what are the various definitions
what can be deducted from all You have to know
the business, not only the law that affects it, not
only copy. Remember, you have to know copyright because that's
the very foundation of our businesses. Copyright. Copyright is the
reason there is a motion picture business, or a music business,
or television business, because it gives you a copyright, which

(32:55):
gives you ownership, protection of intellectual property rights. So you
have to understand in you have to understand copyright and
copyright law. An example of copyright is the copyright. The
Copyright Act is probably, I don't know, one hundred pages,
two hundred pages Nimber on copyright, which is the major

(33:17):
authority on copyright. It is twelve volumes interpreting the copyright law. Okay,
twelve very thick volumes interpreting that that small little copyright law,
if you will. Then, as I say, you have to
understand the business of the motion pictures and television and music,
how the product is distributed, how it's sold, how you

(33:40):
earn your money, who are the recipients of the money.
So you are not just a lawyer, You're a You're
a business person because you have to understand the entire
business of what you are in. And each of them
are different. There's a different different music and television and
motion pictures because the product is different, the creation of

(34:04):
the product is different, the distribution of the product is different,
and the moneies that you received from them is different.

Speaker 1 (34:11):
So did you just learn through experience or do you
read trade papers? How do you keep up?

Speaker 2 (34:20):
You have experience, but you read everything, reading every day.
You read the trades, you read the latest publications, you
read the latest litigation lawsuits, you read the decisions. You
read as much as you can about the latest deal making.
You attend seminars, you review, you go to you go

(34:43):
to various conferences. There's no ent toy. There's no end
to learning in this business. There's no time in which
you say I know it. There's no time in which
you know it at all. There will always be.

Speaker 1 (35:01):
Now, this is your profession for a long time. Yes,
do you like it? Do you enjoy it?

Speaker 2 (35:08):
I love it, and I enjoy it. I love it.
It's why I'm still doing it.

Speaker 1 (35:13):
Let me ask you this. Let's just assume you were
working solely and I came in and I said, oh,
I have a recording contract or I'm an actor in
a movie. Do you still draft the contracts or do
you just make the deal and then subsidiary attorneys would
get it on paper, so to speak.

Speaker 2 (35:32):
Well, at this point I have great associates for me
that are doing drafting and things of that nature. We
have our forms that we accumulated over the years. They're constant,
they're always out of date the day you draw them.
They're out of date. So we're constantly reviewing it. Fortunately
I'm not doing a whole lot of drafting, but I

(35:53):
have great associates that are doing the drafting. But at
one point I did the drafting, I did the reviewing
and all that. When I first entered the business record,
contracts are three pages. They're now seventy eighty pages. Law
motion picture contracts used to be very simple, very very

(36:13):
straight ahead. Now there are hundreds of pages along When
you do it, when you do a deal, and sometimes
first I have some clients that do producing, directing, acting, producing, directing,
ake writing, Well, it's it's you now fill about several
volumes of what those contracts are.

Speaker 1 (36:33):
Okay, you're practicing law. As I say, you create your
own forms. To a great degree, the attorney is seeing
possibilities down the road, and on both sides of the fence,
both the companies and the talent have not foreseen certain things.
So to what creed do you try to dot every I,

(36:53):
cross every T How do you stop? And if you
ever had regrets that you haven't included or four seen.

Speaker 2 (37:00):
Something, well, you're always trying to anticipate, and of course
that's what the industry is now going through with AI, right.
I don't think that was much anticipated some time ago,
and people have been thinking about it in the last
couple of years a little bit. It's being addressed. You're

(37:22):
always learning, and you're always playing catch up, and you're
always going back and look at your contracts and see,
you think we have covered this if we go back
and take a look all the time. I can't say
that were anybody is or we are flawless in that regard,
but we certainly attempt to cover the bases and try

(37:43):
and anticipate what is coming. That's why we go to seminars,
That's why we talk to people, That's why we review
all of the latest articles on all of this thing
and see what's happening, and then delve into our contracts
and see whether we've covered the basis.

Speaker 1 (38:00):
Now, in music, there are many attorneys who charge a percentage,
usually five percent. How do people go by hourly? How
do you do it?

Speaker 2 (38:08):
I've done it both ways, and.

Speaker 1 (38:10):
What are the advantages disadvantages to both?

Speaker 2 (38:13):
Okay, the advantage and disadvantage to percentage is I've talked
to a number of clients, a number of attorneys on
this twenty percent of your clients pay for pay for
the other eighty percent. Okay, Usually when you take percentages,
if you're taking only percentages, it's twenty percent of the

(38:34):
clients who pay for the pay the bill. Hourly is
straight straight ahead. You're either getting paid or say goodbye.
They're either paid the hours. So some clients we have
on percentage. Some clients we have an hourly. There are
a number of particularly the boutique the smaller firms almost

(38:57):
exclusively do five percenters are five percenters, they do very well.
They do very well, but are they winning all the time. No,
they're winning, but twenty percent better pay the bills for
the eighty Because we are a full service firm, in
which boutiques are not. So we do litigation right. Boutiques

(39:18):
do not do litigation. That's hourly. There rarely is that percentage.
Rarely is that percentage. Mostly that is our corporate work.
We do corporate work. Boutiques don't do corporork's that's our
that's hourly type of work. Trademark is hourly type of work.
So it all depends on what it is. The advantage
of a big firmish you can do both. You can

(39:42):
do some clients on hourly, and some clients on percentage.

Speaker 1 (39:46):
Okay, this is a business entertainment in general that is
shady when it comes to payment. So let's say you're
on a five percent how do you know that you're
actually getting five percent of the total.

Speaker 2 (40:02):
Well, hopefully, if you're representing a client, you are representing
a client that you can trust. I recommend that very much.
I wrote. By the way, I wrote an article many
years ago for the Hollywood Reporter. It said. The article
was this, I can tell by meeting somebody a client,

(40:22):
let's say somebody who is a client of somebody, who
the lawyer is, because clients choose lawyers would like personalities.
By and large, Okay, I wrote that article. It was
a long time ago. And in other way, somebody who's dishonest,
do they want an honest lawyer who is going to
tell them that they're dishonest? They don't. They wanted somebody
to see what they see. If they're a paranoid personality,

(40:45):
they want to find a lawyer who sees the same
things that they say. And well, it's not absolutely true
at all. And the thing was a humorous article. By
and large, there's a lot of truth to that fact.
They both choose lawyers that are few things the way

(41:05):
they do thinks, and I think we all generally wanted
to represent somebody that we feel are good people and
pay attention to their to their profession and their honest people.

Speaker 1 (41:32):
Okay, so you come into the business. Recording is going
on pretty much the beginnings, the beginning of the century, movies,
television that time, there's some major changes. Let's just focus
on the music business for a change. The Beatles come along,
and they sell more product than anybody previously. Rock comes along,

(41:55):
Rock starts in the early fifties, sort of fades around
the decade of the City seem it is a huge resurgence.
How does this ultimately affect the contracts in the practice
of law.

Speaker 2 (42:09):
Well, Uh, a selling of a record is the selling
of a record. I don't care whether it's a Beatles
record or an Elvis Presley record or Frank Sorata record.
The selling of a record is still the same the business,
the business aspect is still the same. Uh. The some
of the players are different. Some of the players are different.

(42:30):
Some of the people who handle U tip top are
different than the people who are who are handling classical music.
It's an example. Okay, there are different players with different
philosophies and different and different business models. So again you
have to understand the business that you're in, which bit
it is. So the music business has many, many fascets.

(42:54):
It has a there's a classical music business, and I
represent several major classical artists. There's a classical music business.
There's a pop music business. There's a jazz musical business. Uh,
there's a really been blues business. They're different, the numbers
are different, the deals are different, Uh, the payments are different.

(43:14):
So you have to So you have to learn all
these different fields. Simply because it's music doesn't mean there's
one standard fits all. It doesn't, and one contract doesn't
fit all. It doesn't. The contracts are different, the style
of making business is different. The people on the other
side are different. The classical music people are different people

(43:37):
than the pop music people. They don't think alike. They
think differently, They think in different numbers and in different
ways of doing business. So the music business much like
the motion picture but the telephon, they're it's segregated in
it in and of itself. So you could talk to
the three executives and the music business from different genres.

(44:00):
They're thinking differently and their deals are different.

Speaker 1 (44:03):
Okay, So, but the Rocket Hero starts to flourish in
the mid sixties and ultimately contracts change. Okay, there's so
many issues. A. Did the record company want the publishing, B,
cross collateralization, C free goods, D the raw royalty percentage,

(44:24):
accounting windows. Was that evolving generally and you evolved with it?
Or did you have certain acts you made a stand
such that you were moving the ball for artistry further
down the playing field.

Speaker 2 (44:38):
Well, the deals became when the when the record companies
went to what they called the three sixty deal, that's
probably what you're talking about, in which they not only
had wanted the record, they wanted the publishing, they wanted
the touring, they wanted their acting moneies, they wanted everything
else like that. A number of us was out alone,

(45:00):
A number of us set up and said hold it,
hold it, holdly. This is this is an overreach. Okay,
this is a major overreach. There was a lot of
fights about that. Uh at the beginning, we thought there
was a grab by the companies at that particular time.

Speaker 1 (45:17):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (45:18):
They they viewed it as they were creating an actor
or had an opportunity to earn all this money, et cetera.
And so they see there were they were a partner
in that or participant in that. They wanted to share
that we are the talent side represented. The talent said, well,

(45:39):
wait a minute, you didn't. There's nothing about this. What
you've done is contributed that. Yes, your business is the
record business. Your business is not touring, Your business is
not movies, your business is not publishing. It's not fair.
That battle goes on, that goes onto this, that goes
on to this day as to how far you could go.

(46:00):
Do remember that in the motion picture industry they used
to have they used to have contracts seven year contracts
are more with actors, and they would hire them and
they would become they would become the employees, if you will,
literally of the studio. And there became a revolution amongst

(46:23):
the actor talent that no, that wasn't that wasn't very good,
and they used what was called then the seven year
statue to get out of these contracts. And the studios
that eventually said, well, why are we keeping all these
people on salary? And that was so it had a
dual response, which was some people said gee, i'd like this,

(46:45):
I like the weekly salary, and others say no, I'm
free now to work for any studio I want. Not simple,
but actors. Actors, when they finally got rid of the
seven year contracts, they started making moneies which they're getting
up to the twenty million plus salaries and making deals

(47:08):
because they weren't tied.

Speaker 1 (47:10):
Okay, let's stay with the movie business. Be in ultimately
visual entertainment. So in the late sixties and into the seventies,
the game flips where the talent gains an amazing amount
of control. So tell us what it was like then
and what it's really like today.

Speaker 2 (47:31):
Well, when the talent found they got in control, would
you have the Tom Cruises, et cetera. Who will become
necessary to open a film? Right, it all became. It
all became about opening a film. Previous to that period
of time, they would put out a film. It would stay,

(47:52):
it would stay on the boards or stay at as
theaters for a long time. Now you got to make
your money over the first few weekends to see if
it's really sustained the film. When they found that it
was certain actors like a Tom Cruise as an example,
they that they could open a film and all of

(48:14):
a sudden make millions on a weekend, multi millions on
a weekend. The actors then all of a sudden gained power.
They said, you want me for your film, this is
what they're going to have to pay. And the salaries
rose the ten million a picture to fifteen million a picture,
the twenty million of picture and had more because the

(48:37):
film's companies finally decided they really needed this actor to
open the film. And so whether it was Julia Roberts
or whoever, these were the people that the studio started
to look for and realized that the and the actors
started to realize that they need us. And so the

(49:01):
attorneys who representative took advantage on their behalf to maximize
the income that they were receiving, including the back end payments,
which is now under challenge. The back end payments is
a big subject right now and probably is the big
subject of the strikes right now, the back end payments,

(49:22):
because when you get it to certain certain production companies
today who won't pay a back end. Back end, of course,
is the money you get for future distribution, future exploitation
of the film, and so if you have a percentage
of the film you're going to get paid on that.

(49:44):
Some people are making more money from the back what
they call the back end, than they are from their
front up front fees. And that's the current battle that
goes out to this day.

Speaker 1 (49:55):
Okay, if you read the trades the business public, they
say that talent prices have gone down in the theatrical
business because certain name talent is not opened films, and
some of these films, especially the Marvel movies, et cetera,
it's less important who the talent is. Have you experienced this.

Speaker 2 (50:19):
I haven't personally experienced it, but I understand it. Some
of those are Yeah, some of the films of Marble films,
I understand. Whether they say people going to go see
whether no matter who's in there. I don't know if
they're completely if that's completely true or not. I haven't
been able to I haven't examined any figures to that

(50:41):
aspect of it. But I don't underestimate the power of
the draw of certain talent in this business.

Speaker 1 (50:50):
Okay, so let you know where the talent is on
strike right now. By time this year is who knows.
Theoretically a deal could be made, but let's just talk theore.
In the old days, the back end was such that
you went to varying platforms. Maybe you were on network,
then you went into syndication, then you went into physical

(51:11):
with DVDs, vhs. Whereas with Netflix, let's say they might
buy out the product and only have it on their platform,
so you could have a contract with externalities if they
distributed elsewhere. But if the product is paid for by
Netflix and sits on Netflix, how would we construct the

(51:32):
back end?

Speaker 2 (51:35):
Netflix, to my knowledge, does not pay it back end.

Speaker 1 (51:38):
Right, But as a representative of talent and the talent
is looking for more money, do you see any way
to do that?

Speaker 2 (51:45):
No? Back Netflix is a great company, but they have
their own business model, and their business model does not
call for a back end at all. And they have
an unusual book they call it back in in which
they pay you negotiate a deal with them for a number,

(52:07):
and they take twenty percent of that number, and hey,
that's your back end, and we'll pay that out within
two for over the two years after the film has
been distributed. That's been my experience with them.

Speaker 1 (52:21):
And is that twenty performance based No? Okay, let's talk
about theatrical in general. You're a student of the game.
What is the future of theatrical We obviously had the pandemic.
Business is not completely recovered. The stocks of the theaters
have gone up and down. The major studios are making

(52:45):
less product. By the same token, there's more indepredent product
than ever, although a lot of it does not get
theatrical distribution. What's going to happen here in the future.

Speaker 2 (52:57):
Well, I can't predict the future. It's right now very uncertain. Uh.
The I like to go to I like to go
to the movies. Will the public continue to like to
go into the movies? I don't know. We had a
great I think you know, we had a great theater

(53:18):
complex in Hollywood, the arc Line Theaters in Hollywood, and
that a lot of us used to like to go to.
Very much gone. I don't know if it's ever going
to come back, but it's gone. The enthusiasm of going
to theaters seems to be less. With the exception of
Barbie Oppenheimer. So those are so those are two I've

(53:43):
only I've seen Oppenheimer. I've not seen Barbie yet, but
some of the some of the the people that work
here have seen Barbie multiple times. They adore the film,
and with good reason. I've heard nothing but great things
at every in every corner, and Oppenheimer was an incredible film.
But I don't know how many Oppenheimer's or Barbies there's

(54:05):
going to be. It's going to draw people to the theaters,
So I don't know. It's a hard one. I like
to go to the theaters. A lot of people have
got used to sitting at home and watching the thing
at home on their couch. What they'll like in the future,
I don't know. I think we're in between now and
I don't know where it's going to come out.

Speaker 1 (54:25):
Okay, Now, the agencies, let's leave music aside, where the
agent really just books live dates. But the agents in
the visual entertainment field, needless to say, Mike Ovitz comes
in and has a lot of control packaging, etc. But

(54:45):
in terms of deals, not everybody has an agent. How
do you interact with the agencies?

Speaker 2 (54:54):
Oh, well, A good portion of my clients are represented
by agencies, and the agencies have been very good. They're
out there. We don't go out there looking for jobs
for these people. Okay, we don't know, at least I
could speak for myself. I don't know what films are
on the boards that they're looking for talent, and at

(55:17):
which companies are looking for talent. That's that's what the
good agents know. They know what Paramount has got on
the boards. They know what Disney's got on the boards,
they know what Universal, they know what's coming up, and
they know where to call there and put up their
clients for the opportunities at those places. We don't know that.
The agents know that the ages are very good at that,

(55:40):
and so we work with the agents is far with
our clients because they know what's coming up and all that,
and they've made multiple deals, so their input all the time.
We may have our ideas what the deal is worth,
the agents also have their ideas and it's valuable input.
I have nothing but respect for the good agencies because

(56:01):
they're on the front lines where we are not.

Speaker 1 (56:05):
Okay, let's flip it over to the music business. For
a long time there, the last decades of the twentieth century,
it was all about the major labels and major label
recording contracts. A to what degree is out of percentage
of your business today.

Speaker 2 (56:25):
That would be less than fifty percent, Maybe it's around
fifty percent, maybe a little less.

Speaker 1 (56:30):
And we talked about the three sixty. How have those
contracts change? I mean there are a lot of ways.
I mean, in the days of physical products, certainly the CD,
you have these huge advances and all sorts of other things.
So what's a recording contract like today?

Speaker 2 (56:47):
It's pretty much pretty much the same question is are
they willing to put out as a company willing to
put out as much money today as they were? And
that'll vary, that'll vary with the talent. There's I don't
I don't know of a measure on that one. If somebody,
if there's three record companies or four record companies want

(57:08):
you're artists, it is one one type of thing. If
there's one record company that wants are artist, it's a
different deal. I don't think that has changed that much.

Speaker 1 (57:16):
Okay, So let's assume I'm making a deal with a
major label. What kind of streaming rate can I get?

Speaker 2 (57:25):
Streaming rate? Okay? That's a that's a that's a that's
a daily question around here. The maximum anybody is paid,
and there some of them are paying it, it's at
fifty percent of what proceeeds Okay, domestically for forty foreign Okay,
at source as source. Not everybody's going to get that.

(57:48):
That's that's a relatively few we'll get that, but it's
it's possible to get a number of the companies. A
number of the companies are paying at thirty five and
forty and those forty forty domestic thirty five for some
are paying less than that. The big problem we all have.

(58:10):
The big problem is not the new deals, but the
existing deals that were that were sitting there, in which
the record companies are paying streaming rate and the same
as they were paying for the CD rate. So if
the CD rate was twenty percent or twenty five percent,
that's what they're paying. So we're fighting with the labels

(58:32):
to say, hey, wait a minute, it's unfair this time
and this business and what you're making on it. You
got to rethink it. You got to come to the
table and renegotiate this thing. Every company has their own
philosophy on it. But that's the type of discussion that
should be had. Okay, even though somebody is there is
getting a streaming rate of twenty or twenty five percent,

(58:53):
they should be having a conversation with the label, Hey
that's not fair, because it isn't because they don't have
many factory, they don't have storage, shipping, they don't have storage,
they don't have any of the things that they used
to have with with a CD. They it. Basically, My
position is it's a license. It's all it is. They

(59:15):
exercise the license. Yes, they do some promotion, and no
question they do promotion. But the rate, in my personal
opinion is anything lower than forty or fifty percent is wrong.
And we make calls and everybody else is doing the
same thing, main calls. Hey, it's time to rethink this

(59:36):
with the with the labels. But I think for any
decent act, forty to fifty percent domesticated and throughound thirty
to thirty five or forty percent four and is what
is the goal? Everybody's not going to get it?

Speaker 1 (59:53):
So are these there are no deductions on the fifty Okay,
So let's say I have an historic contract and they're
paying me a low rate. Many people don't have any leverage.
So how do you get these labels to cough up more.

Speaker 2 (01:00:13):
Go out and buy an AK forty seven?

Speaker 1 (01:00:14):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
You you try your best. I you know, you try
your best. If they really love the artists and they're
really interested in the artists. They want to keep a
happy artist, and most labels want to keep a happy artist.
You go in on that basis you don't have any leverage,
but you're going to say, look, it's not fair. Well,

(01:00:37):
they're not fair. Work always work. It won't always work,
but it will work. Sometimes it will work. Sometimes. I've
seen one label very positively when you have legendary, legendary
artists on the label come to the table and say, yeah,

(01:00:57):
we gotta make it right.

Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
Okay. There have been all these issues in the music
business of contracts that have not foreseen the future. To
what degree do you have artists who have contracts there
are now revenue streams that were not foreseen in the contract,
which raise questions in bargaining power. How often does that happen?

Speaker 2 (01:01:22):
It happens. I mean, look at all the contracts that
were done before there were streaming, lots of them. And
I'm doing battle right now. These are contracts I inherited
with a couple labels and say, we got up these
streaming rays. It's not fair to be paying twenty percent

(01:01:44):
royalty for streaming. It's just not right. And while right
now I'm in these conversations, I haven't received the know
what I'm receiving is we're reviewing it. I keep hearing
we're reviewing it. Well, I think the review time is over.
Let's get to something. But it's worth the conversation, and

(01:02:07):
everybody should have that conversation.

Speaker 1 (01:02:17):
Okay, there are issues. We have a lot of acts
that have they had to re re record it, like Aerosmith, whatever,
ye haven't you? You get to write a reversion after
twenty five years on the original albums because they didn't
foresee any economic value after twenty five years. So when
you make a deal today, okay, is there any reversion

(01:02:41):
of the copyright? Can that be negotiated? What are the
terms there?

Speaker 2 (01:02:48):
Negotiating the reversion is very tough. You have to have
a superstar to do that, to get an ownership. But
absent that, under the Copyright Act, there's a thirty five
year termination for any recordings that are done after nineteen
seventy eight. Okay, released after nineteen seventy eight under the
Copyright Act, so you can get it back. Now, here's

(01:03:09):
what's going on with that. Copyright Act of nineteen seventy
nineteen seventy eight provides for this or in nineteen seventy six,
commencing in nineteen seventy eight. The Copyright Act prize for
a thirty five termination right under the old Act, the
previous Act, it was a fifty six year termination. Fifty

(01:03:30):
six year termination. So you said, now you're coming up,
you got two You got two years before the thirty
five years to send your notice. You got to give
a two year notice and it's a five year period
of which you have to send it. But the termination
would be between thirty five to forty years. So you

(01:03:50):
send your notice. The first thing happens is the record
companies say, no, you're not in time too, because it's
a work for hire, work for hire, work for higher
provision in the Copyright Act says that they own it
and they own it in perpetuity, but nothing. There's no
termination right for work for hire. However, here's the situation.

(01:04:12):
It's long and a complicated reason. Under the Copyright Act,
there are nine categories that work for hire, nine categories.
Sound recordings are not one of the nine categories. Audio
visual works are one of the nine categories. As an example,
the collective works are a category but doesn't say sound recordings.

(01:04:36):
In the year to nineteen ninety nine, the RIAA Record
Industry Association of America got Congress to add a tenth
category sound recordings to the list of to the list
of nine categories which made sound recordings that work for hire,
which means you could terminate number of us. It was

(01:05:01):
Cheryl Crow, Don Henley Irving Azoff and I got involved
myself on behalf of Cheryl, and we protested the Congress
that they shouldn't have passed this law. Okay, it was
included in a one thousand page stock television amendment. Okay,
that's where it was included. I contacted Howard Berman and

(01:05:27):
then Howard Kobel. They were the Howard Cobel was the
chairman of the Appropriate Committee and Howard Berman was the
ranking member. They decided to hold hearings on this thing.
I got Cheryl Crow to go back and testify. I
went and testified, and this is the year two thousand.
The year two thousand, we had dueling professors. Helen Rosen

(01:05:54):
was the head of the RAA at that time. She testified.
We had a professor. They had a professor carry grat
carry grad. Kerry Sherman was the general consul for the
ra He testified on the other side and it became
very clear to Coward Coble and Howard Berman that they

(01:06:16):
made a mistake. They shouldn't have They shouldn't have passed
this without a hearing, with no hearing when they passed that.
So they called Kerry Sherman to myself into a room
and they said, they said, come up with language to
remove this language. And we came up with language. It
took her quite a while. The two of us came

(01:06:38):
up with the language. They finally passed it, and so
sound recordings was removed as a tenth category. Notwithstanding that fact,
the the record companies to this day claim when you
send your termination notice that it's worked for hire and
therefore there's no right to terminate. There's litigation pending on
this which has not been There is no resulve, and

(01:07:02):
the record companies refuse to acknowledge that there's a right
of termination. You're saying the is a collective work and
therefore it falls within the falls within the ten nine categories.
As I say, there's no result in litigation. So what
happens on when you send your termination notice? They say

(01:07:25):
you have no right to terminate, but let's talk, and
then they generally will negotiate and the advance and negotiate
higher royalties and things of that nature. And there's no
consistent way it's done, and they're all Every record company
is different, Every record company attrius it differently. That's the

(01:07:46):
state of the art. There's no answer to that question
except the record companies maintained it is a work for
hire and there's no right to termine it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:54):
Okay, do you anticipate one of these cases going to trial.

Speaker 2 (01:08:00):
There's two pending out there.

Speaker 1 (01:08:02):
Yeah, okay, let's go back to the recording contract. Used
to be that lawyers would shop deals. Is that still
a factor at all? Or how many people come in
and say the label's interest in me, I need a lawyer.

Speaker 2 (01:08:17):
Well, if the label is interested, they're not shopping. No,
I won't. I won't shop I don't know how many
attorneys are doing it shopping at this point. I won't
do it. The reason why we don't, I'll tell you why.
The reason we don't do it myself and everybody else
probably similar, which is the one thing we have is access.

(01:08:37):
I can call over and get somebody on the phone.
But if I'm calling up to find out if they
if they're interested in my latest deal. They're not going
to be answering the phone. We need, we need access
and shopping is the worst thing you can do because
now they don't want to take their call because they
don't they don't like to say a lot of people
they don't like to say no. They don't like to
tell you no. So I stay away. I'm sure a

(01:09:01):
lot of people are that stay away from shopping. It's bad.
I don't want to do it. But if the label
says I'm interested, I said, then I'll call them and say, okay,
I'll talk to you now now.

Speaker 1 (01:09:12):
But there are fewer major labels who are putting out
less product. Yeah, so basically everybody walks through the door
has a deal or do you have other acts who
say I'm doing incredible on the road. I don't want
to make a major label deal, but I need representation.

Speaker 2 (01:09:31):
Well I can give representation. Well, I'm not going to shop,
but maybe I can get them to a manager or
to somebody who will do that. A good manager. There
are good there are good managers who will do will
do that with with talent, they will do that, and
that's fine. I don't want to have my name attached
to it. I'm sure there's a lot of otheritorians feel

(01:09:51):
the same way. Don't want to shop.

Speaker 1 (01:09:54):
How about the other thing in California where we've had
this issue for sixty years now, where if someone who's
not an attorney or licensed talent agent gets work, the
contract can be voided and no money is owed. What's
the status of that and what's your experience.

Speaker 2 (01:10:15):
That hasn't That hasn't changed. Uh, that hasn't changed at all.
An agent has licensed to to solicit work, okay, and
if you don't, if you don't have that, your you're
at risk. There have been cases on that subject. I
haven't had that discussion for quite some time, but there

(01:10:36):
was who's named Matthew kates H exactly right? Oh god,
the name came out on where that name came out.
But yeah, that's it. Uh, there has I haven't had much.
I haven't seen much of that lately because I guess

(01:10:56):
talent or I actually have anybody who will go try
and shop shop for them, and they will. I feel
sorry for talent because it's hard for them to get
doors open to them, and it's hard to get into
the agencies because the agencies are busy, they they're responsible

(01:11:18):
for the any talent that they have, and so some
of them are. It's hard to get into the agency,
hard to get an agent, and they're not easy, so
the attorneys are not doing it. It's difficult to get
an agent. So when you find someone who's willing to
put their put themselves out there, nobody's trying to nobody's
right now trying to kill those people who are trying

(01:11:38):
to say no, don't do that, because the talent has
nowhere else to go. The only thing the talent can
do is keep performing showcases right and hopefully somebody shows
up that that might be interested in them. But it's
not easy. But so what we can do is sometimes
refer them to a manager, who is if we think

(01:12:00):
something is really good, we'll refer to a manager, and
the managers go ahead and notwithstanding the law, because nobody's
really interested and going after managers for trying to shop.
There's nobody interested in that because there's nowhere else the

(01:12:21):
talent has to look.

Speaker 1 (01:12:23):
Okay, Now, there are certain managers who have handshake agreements,
others have contracts. What do you advise the talent and
what has been your experience in terms of what whether
people want a contract or not?

Speaker 2 (01:12:40):
Well, what type of person wants to contract?

Speaker 1 (01:12:42):
Let's say you're representing talent. Talent now has a manager, right,
some managers want paper, other managers don't. Do you advise
the act one way or another? And if there is paper,
what are the key points you're negotiating?

Speaker 2 (01:13:00):
Well, I think there probably should be a paper the
keyboard are the royalties? Are the bed's a commission? I
should say, what's the commission? How long is the contract?
The big things are, yeah, what's the commission? And how long?
And how long is the contract? And is there a
sunset clause? Right?

Speaker 1 (01:13:19):
Okay, So just going back to the record companies. You know,
sixty years ago you had two albums a year. The
total might be of the contract seven years might be
fourteen albums. What is what are the deliverables today? And
what are the terms today?

Speaker 2 (01:13:37):
Well, lucky if you get one album a year now,
and usually the contracts are the contracts are usually a
lens of about how many albums? There's the four albums
are the five albums and six albums and the seven albums?
There were contracts years ago. We all remember contracts of
twenty albums and twenty two albums and twenty four albums

(01:13:58):
and things like that. Today it's usually somewhere between five
to five to six to seven albums, sometimes four, a
lot less than what it a lot less to what
it used to be. That's probably more typical somewhere there
usually five somewhere between five to seven albums, which is

(01:14:21):
still a lot on behalf of talent. I'd like to
see less. I'd like to see the more than four
quite frankly.

Speaker 1 (01:14:28):
Okay. Then we have the seven year clause, and the
issue is whether it's it's been seven years the label
argue haven't delivered all the product. But we did have
one act of then sevenfold who left Warner and went
to Capital. What are your thoughts on that now?

Speaker 2 (01:14:43):
Okay, I've got definite thoughts on that. Okay. California, we
have a seven year statue. Seven years statute applies to
everybody in the state of California. Seven years. And there
was a famous case on there is oliviited to Havel
then get Warner Brothers. And although she was put on

(01:15:04):
suspension because she didn't perform in certain things, the court
said in California, seven years mean seven years. Okay, seven
years mean seven years. Seven years. She's out, whether she
performed or not. Now here's another battle we had with
the recording artist coalition, which I helped form. We had

(01:15:28):
the battle of the one in the Congress I told
you about, and then this was the second battle. So
Ora comes into California and says, uha, seven years should
not apply to the record industry, and if they don't,
it should be. They first came in and said it
should be ten years for record people. Ten years eventually

(01:15:52):
what And I went up there on behalf of a
number of artists to oppose that legend. Uh. The uh
it passed and it passed anyway. Uh. And their argument was, well,
the artist is not delivering all the stuff we should

(01:16:15):
we should they should not be allowed out of their contract. Uh.
But seven years applies to everybody else in California. Why
shouldn't have applied the recording artists that placed the actors
applies to everybody else. Their arguments said, well, they committed
to the seven years that should be it should be. Uh.
And we we we made an investment in the artists,

(01:16:36):
so as they start in the film studio and make
an investment that their there are actors. And they won
the day, which basically said, if you don't deliver all
the products, even if it's on option, even if the
option was not exercised, Uh, you have to you have
to deliver the album and if you have and if

(01:16:56):
you haven't done that, you're liable for damages. You're liable
for damages were undelivered damages for what? What are the damages?
So what album sold ten million albums? Next album could
sell nothing? We don't know what are the damages. Are
the damages the basis of what you would have made
on ten million albums? Uncertain? There's no answer. There's no

(01:17:19):
answer to that at all. But they got they got
the legislature in California to agree that artists could be
sued for damage for damages for undelivered product even though
they weren't optioned in the state of California. And that's
the state of the law. Now. It's preposterous. In my
personal opinion, it should never have happened. As I say,

(01:17:42):
I opposed it on behalf of the artists. I went
up there to testifying along with Don Henley and others.
Don Henley was not my client, but we were part
of the same artist coalition. Recording Artists Coalition and we
opposed the legislation. Unfortunately, we didn't win that, or we

(01:18:02):
lost that, however you want to describe it. It's not right,
but that is the state of the law in the
state of California. So even if they haven't delivered all
the products in the seven year period, they can't get out.
They can't get out.

Speaker 1 (01:18:21):
Okay. Let's shift to publishing for a second. So it
has been your experience with termination rights in publishing.

Speaker 2 (01:18:29):
Been more positive, much more positive. So far. We've had
no issue with getting people out of the contract. Yeah,
I stopped out of the country. I'm sorry. We have
no problem not terminating and not getting the rights back. Correct.

Speaker 1 (01:18:48):
Okay. So let's say you have what they call a
heritage artist, someone whose heyday of recordings is in the past,
and they walk in and they say, okay, I have
the right of termination. A lot of them will immediately
make a deal with the person who had it before.

(01:19:08):
What would you advise someone who now has an asset
which they've regained, Well, it all.

Speaker 2 (01:19:16):
Depends on their relationship. If you're with a good publisher,
you're with a good publisher, you probably want to stay
with a good publisher. So you make it. You make
a new deal, make yourself a better deal, maybe get
some advances, better royalties, what have you. If you've got
a good publisher, why not stay with them? Don't You

(01:19:37):
don't give them the ownership necessarily, you will make a
deal for what we call an administration deal, and you
get more favorable rates instead. Instead of the publisher getting
fifty percent or twenty five percent, maybe you get them
down to ten percent, maybe even five percent. But if
you've got a good publisher, a good publisher, are you

(01:20:00):
really want a good publisher, and good publishers are very effective,
why not make a deal with them. Unless you're very
unhappy with that particular publisher, and then okay, take your
stuff back and run somewhere else. But you're still going
to have to make a deal with somebody. You can't
do it yourself. You can't do it by advise it.
I guess doing it yourself. There's too much to administrate,

(01:20:22):
there's too many licenses to do, there's too much knowledge
you need about what the latest deals are, et cetera.
So do your termination right and make a deal. If
you like the publisher, make a deal with the publisher
the same one.

Speaker 1 (01:20:38):
Let's talk about the beginning of a contract. Sure, you
make a deal with a major label doesn't include publishing rights,
and different publishers will come and say I'll buy the
publishing or a license it. They're different deals. Do you
advise taking the money? What do you advise an act
at the beginning of their career relative to publishing.

Speaker 2 (01:21:01):
My general advice, without anything else is, never give up
ownership of your publisher. Never give up ownership. Make an
administration deal for them to administrate for a limited period
of time, and then it gives you. If they do
a good job, you'll do another one with them. If
they're not doing any job, you'll go with somebody else.

(01:21:23):
But never ever, ever give up ownership of your copyrights.

Speaker 1 (01:21:28):
Which brings the next question. We are now an era
where people are selling their copyrights out right Hypnosis, Primary Wave.
There are a number of these companies round hill. What's
your advice to clients on that.

Speaker 2 (01:21:43):
That's a person, it's a personal thing. If they the
mondies are very big. Some of these copyrights have gone
for as much as the thirty times multiple s are
twenty five times multiple summer, twenty sixth summer, or twenty
or less This is a personal question. It's not that

(01:22:04):
we could have advice on them, because it's a person.
It has to do with their personal finances and their
personal future. If they if they feel that they don't
mind losing control of their copyrights and they want to
pocket a lot of money, then you do the deal.
But if you want to control of your copyrights, really
control your cover, then you don't sell because once you sell,

(01:22:28):
although you can retain limited controls, limited but limited approval rights,
I should not control limited approval rights. Again, you got
down to I've heard a songwriters say, these are my babies,
these are benter creation. Well, do you want to sell
your baby? Do you want to sell your creation? I

(01:22:49):
never advised them to sell. Unless the money is so
big that they say, wow, I can make a score
now and I don't have to worry for the rest
of my life. That's a different choice.

Speaker 1 (01:23:07):
Okay, what we have seen in the digital era is
they said the sky was falling, you know, twenty years ago,
and now there are endless new avenues of remuteration. And
everybody I know has sold before this previous run up
it has always regretted it. So thirty X, if you're

(01:23:29):
seventy looks like a really good number. Not that many
people live to one hundred. But assuming I didn't need
the cash, what would you tell me.

Speaker 2 (01:23:41):
Well, what's the reason for selling it? I don't see
the reason why killing it if somebody can make a
big score, and some of you see if people have
made a big score. But if you don't need the cash,
and you don't have something to do with that cash
right now, you have there's certain investments you'd like to do.

(01:24:02):
You'd like to buy this building or or buy a
yacht or whatever you have in mind, there could be
a reason to do it. But absent that, unless you
have a specific reason what you want to do with
the money, or you're fearful about the future and you
want to put this money away, those are reasons to

(01:24:23):
not to sell. But when you yours, when you sell,
you giving up a certain amount of control. It's your
I've heard songwriter say these are my babies. Well, do
you want to sell your baby? Uh? You want to
sell your You want to sell the control of this copyright?
What can be done with it? What can how it
can be used? Who who can license it or where

(01:24:45):
where it can be used? Tough questions.

Speaker 1 (01:24:49):
And in terms of overall revenues from recordings, do you
see what do you see coming down the pike?

Speaker 2 (01:24:58):
Revenues revenues are are very good right now and increasing
because of because of streaming. Uh. The streaming has uh
recovery has recovered the or it has caused the music
industry to recover from the adultgens that went through after
the nineties. Uh, it went really really down. Uh, and

(01:25:25):
streaming has been a savior for it. And there's uh
the royalties seemed to increase. Uh. The so it's been
a boon. It's been a boon for the for the
record industry, for the artists UH that participated. Uh. Very

(01:25:45):
it's very very good, very good to see.

Speaker 1 (01:25:49):
Okay, there are many artists and artists are not always
informed on the economics who decry streaming payouts and and
we know that if you stream in quantity, there's a
lot of money there. What is your viewpoint overall on
streaming payouts.

Speaker 2 (01:26:11):
Well, there's two aspects of the streaming aspect. One is
the recordings stream backs for the recording that are the streaming,
and then there's one for the songwriters. The difficulty for
the songwriters is in particular, their royalties are regulated by
the government. There are hearings that have to be held

(01:26:32):
as to what the streaming rates are for songwriters. Now,
don't I don't think that the executives of companies would
like their rates set by the government. Uh, And I
don't think and songwriters certainly don't. And it's it's they
really feel wronged that their future and their livelihood and

(01:26:54):
their income is determined by the government in the sense
that you have to has to be hearings on what
the royalty rates are for that. Now, in other words,
there's a mechanical rate which they're limited as it's been
raised a little bit recently. There's the mechanical rate. There

(01:27:16):
is the streaming rates which are regulated, has going up
a little bit for them, but it's not the same
regular regulation that the artists have. Part of their money,
the artist's monies are regulated, but a good portion or
not a good portion with the record companies where they
can make a lot of money amount of money depending

(01:27:37):
upon their deal. So the songwriters had the biggest complaint
to make it this particular point because of all the
regulations that their income is regulated by the government or
our government decree. I should say.

Speaker 1 (01:27:50):
Prior to the digital era royalties, the record companies never
paid one hundred percent on the royalties, and if you
did audit it cost you a fortune. There was a window.
If they found money, they settled. What's the status of
the honesty of payments these days?

Speaker 2 (01:28:15):
Okay, let me answer it this way. I've never taken
an audit. I'm not going to respond to the word honesty.
I've never taken an audit of any company where we
haven't found money. Okay? Is it mistakes? Is misallocation? What
is it we always find bundy? Okay. I've never claimed

(01:28:39):
that they're dishonest. Okay. There are so many ways that
money can be calculated in a recording contract, and so
many It comes in from so many sources, in so
many ways, through so many departments of the record company.
It's not so simple. And mistakes are made. Are they
pretty good to correct the mistakes when you order and

(01:29:02):
find them? Yes? Are they fighting you on these things?
They'll fight because are the interpretation of the language. But generally,
I have ever taken it long where we didn't find
money and then we didn't settle. I've never had a
suit one of these companies, never have had the sue
one of these companies. We always resolve it. Are there

(01:29:22):
things in there that we challenged that we never resolved? Yeah,
there are some items like interest you really can get
interest from them. Or foreign taxes is another thing. You
always fight about whether they could have deducted from taxes
paid in the United States, et cetera. But I can't

(01:29:45):
say they've been dishonest. But let's say, if there's a question,
of course, they're going to take a favorable interpretation. And
a lot of these things are our questions as to
where it belongs or what it is, or have they
allocated it right. But I've settled every audit. I've never
had to sue them. Did we get one hundred percent

(01:30:06):
of what our claims in? No, we've never gotten one
hundred percent of our claim claims in, but sufficient to
satisfy the client.

Speaker 1 (01:30:15):
Okay, just switching to the live business for one second.
Lawyers are heavily involved in negotiating tour deals. At this point,
to what degree are you involved in that and what
is the state of the business.

Speaker 2 (01:30:30):
Yes, we are true to a large degree the agent's
run point on the tour deals. The agents are very
They're all very good. All the agencies are very good
at that. They've got a lot of experience. But we
were there going over the scene, questioning. I'm monitoring it,

(01:30:51):
putting our opinion on whether they it's certain items and
the things that but we work alongside managers and agents
and those things, not alone.

Speaker 1 (01:31:02):
And what's the status of insurance for cancelation of gigs
for whatever reason?

Speaker 2 (01:31:07):
Today there's insurance that we try and maintain. I have
not had a problem, not with not getting insured. We've
always had insurance.

Speaker 1 (01:31:19):
Okay. To what degree has your practice of law been
all consuming and to what degree it has affected your
family life?

Speaker 2 (01:31:29):
Huh? I hadn't had a negative because I have. I've
been married a long time. She was a musician, he
is a musician herself. She's very, very understanding. So it's
never been a problem with my wife. We've been married

(01:31:50):
fifty some other year, fifty three years. That's not been
a problem. But the business is all If you're going
to do this business and do it right, whether you're
a lawyer or an agent or a manager, it is
all consuming. It takes a lot of time. It's not
a nine to five job. It's weekends, not all weekends,

(01:32:11):
but it's weekends, it's nights, it's during your vacation, etc.
It goes with the territory. We don't think about it
because we don't. It's just our job. It's just our
job to do it, and we find a way to
do it.

Speaker 1 (01:32:24):
And how did you meet your wife?

Speaker 2 (01:32:27):
I met her backstage at the Greek Theater. I was
representing a featured act at that time, and she was
joining the opening act.

Speaker 1 (01:32:37):
Okay, now you are in your nineties. I don't know
whether you're comfortable saying your exact age. How much long
are you going.

Speaker 2 (01:32:47):
To do this? I'm as long as I can. I
love my job. I love the people I work with.
I love my partners, I love my clients. Uh. As
long as I'm healthy and UH can deal with it,
I want to do it. I enjoy my I enjoy

(01:33:10):
my work. I look forward to it. I get up
every day looking forward to the day, looking forward to
the interesting. I'm learning something every day. Why why wouldn't
I What what we're gonna do is sit at home?
Uh Uh. I enjoyed. I enjoy the clients I work with.
I've got doc on wood, terrific clients. Uh uh. Interesting

(01:33:32):
interesting issues. I'm learning something new every day. Uh. I
never know enough. There's no way to know enough about
this business. There's always something to learn every single day.
Uh Uh. It keeps you going. I think it keeps
you going.

Speaker 1 (01:33:50):
Okay, this is a business that a lot of people
and this is a thing in general today they talk
about in sports where people don't understand the history. What
the young people not know about the entertainment business that
they should know?

Speaker 2 (01:34:08):
No? No, well, okay, what the what it's It's a business. Okay,
it's a serious business. It's not fun and games. It's
a serious business. I guess learn your business. Learn learn
what learn what you're in here was just not just law. Uh,
it's not just accounting. It's it's a business. Learn the business. Uh,

(01:34:32):
learned everything about it. There's no end to it, and
it changes on every changes on a daily basis. Who
knew that not that long ago? About streaming? Who know
anything about streaming and what it is and where it's
going and what is developed? Who knew was going to
take over the took over the business? When I first
got into this business, there was the contract I think

(01:34:54):
I mentioned earlier. It was three pages. It was three
pages long, get a Capitol Records contract. The first way
I looked at that was three pages. It dealt with
forty fives and thirty three and seventy eight's. We're a
little ways from that, and it's been exciting. It's an
exciting venture to go along to learn these things and

(01:35:15):
see what people come up with and new and now
we're going into AI and what do we deal with that?
How are we dealing with that? So we're lucky we're
studying that, trying to learn AI, trying to learn what
it means, and how to prevent rip off of our
client's voices and things of that nature. And we don't

(01:35:35):
want licensing. We have to be careful with life. We
don't want our product license into AI without our permission,
without knowing exactly what it is. And we've got to
learn all about that. You're constantly learning. Learning is what
keeps you going, not sitting on your rear end at
home reading a book.

Speaker 1 (01:35:53):
Okay, Jay, you're you know, you're amazing, as sharp as ever.
You've seen it all and I want to thank you
for taking this time to share your wisdom and your
story with my audience.

Speaker 2 (01:36:04):
Well, well, thank you. Uh it's been It's been a
real pleasure. I just wanted to finish with one thing.
We started off with Rod Temperton. Then, Uh, as I
told you on the phone. I think we told you
on the phone. The most amazing thing about Rod is
when Quincy heard the When Quincy heard the the recording

(01:36:25):
is by heat Wave. Uh, and he called Rod Temperton,
and Rod Temperton came into came in here. First song
Rod wrote was off the Wall. Uh, it's extraordinary. And
then the next thing he wrote that was the next thing,
or a couple of songs later he wrote was for
the next album, Thriller. He wrote, thriller. Uh, it's extraordinary.

(01:36:49):
It's this little guy from from the north of England
who came out of nowhere.

Speaker 1 (01:36:59):
Well, okay, so when someone walks in your office, do
you know who's gonna make it? And now how big
they're gonna be?

Speaker 2 (01:37:05):
No, you don't know. You don't know. You can guess.
You can guess as to who's not gonna make it.
You can guess who's not gonna make it. But when
somebody comes in with songs like he wrote with heat
Wave as an example as an example, you you know,
you know it's only a matter of time, and I've

(01:37:28):
had that experience with a number of artists and songwriters.
You come in and you hear some of that stuff,
you say, there's no problem here.

Speaker 1 (01:37:39):
Okay Jay, Thanks again, many more years of practice for you.

Speaker 2 (01:37:43):
Thank you, Thank you doctor.

Speaker 1 (01:37:45):
Until next time, This is Bob left sex

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Bob Lefsetz

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