Karla Bonoff

Quite possibly the best songwriter of her generation, Karla is famous for the songs she wrote for Linda Ronstadt, but her versions are even better. Tune in to hear the story of the SoCal music scene in the seventies.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to the Bob Left Sets podcast. For
those of you new to the show, I interview musicians,
tech stars, business people and hope to give you some
entertainment and some education at the same time. For those
who've been listening for a year already, you know the drill.
My guest today is songwriter and performer extraordinary Carla Bonoff.

(00:31):
I normally don't give a huge intro, but I'm going
to it this case. How did we know the name
Carla Bonoff? She wrote songs on the Linda Ronstad album
Hastened Down the Wind, and I moved to l a permanently.
I was here a little bit before that, but permanently
in the summer of seventy six, and I used to

(00:51):
go to this record store which no longer exists, called
Grammy and Granny Records in Westwood and one of the
benefits of living in Los Angeles as you could buy
promo records people cash them in. This is what it was,
still vinyl before CD. I get a few tales about
selling my promo c d s. But in the bin

(01:14):
I saw Carla's debut album. Okay, I still have it
with the price stick around it because I kept all
my vinyl. It could have been it was either a
dollar ninety nine or two forty seven. And I came
home and I played it. I loved it so much.
I literally went back and bought all the copies and
gave them to my friends. And I can tell you
story after story about turning people on to the first album.

(01:35):
In any event, Carla, glad to have you on the show.
Thank you. It's a privilege to be here. So how
did you get those tracks on the ron Stad album? Oh? Wow,
there's a lot of history. I mean, that's what the
shows about. Well, it really goes back to Kenny Edwards. Okay,
tell my audience who Kenny Edwards was an incredible musician

(01:58):
and songwriter. But he began in the Stone Ponies with
Linda Ronstep. So when Linda came out from Tucson with
Bobby Kimmel and they got together with Kenny and they
formed that band. So I met Kenny right after the
Stone Ponies broke up and we started our own band
with Wendy Waldman and myself and Andrew gold Um called Brindle.

(02:22):
So we got signed to A and M. We made
a record they dropped us, which fell apart, and Kenny
and Andrew went back and started playing in Linda's band.
Right about the time she was really hitting it big
with that heart like a will. So Kenny would go
off on these tours and I would I was writing,
and I would give him cassettes and you know, hey,

(02:44):
maybe just put this in Linda's person Um, nothing would
ever happened really with it. And then when one day
called me up, he goes. You know, I decided maybe
if I just picked up a guitar and played the
song for her myself, um, and she would hear it,
and he did, added a sound check, he played her
Lose Again and she totally loved it, and they learned

(03:05):
it right there and it was in the show. And
so they came back to play the universal lamphitheater. She
was playing like twelve nights. That was the day before.
There was a roof before they down, and yeah, that
was a fun that was a fun run. But that's
when she started doing them. So that's lose Again, did three?

(03:27):
She did if He's Ever? So she was getting ready
to make the next record. I guess um hastened down
the wind. So then then she asked me if I
had more so. Then I just started, well, how about
this one? How about this one? So that's how it
ended up being three once I think her mind kind
of opened up to the idea. Then she then all

(03:49):
of a sudden it was three. And it was kind
of weird for me because I was getting ready to
make my own record too. I didn't have a whole
lot of other songs. Those are my good songs, so
we can talk about that. But I ended up recording
them all those same three songs, right right, And I
think your versions are much better. Usually the person who
wrote the song add something extra that someone does not.

(04:11):
But without making it about Ronstad, how did you feel,
I mean, this is a totally different era. There are
many fewer records out. Linda Ronstadt one of the biggest
acts in the country, and she's going to record your tracks.
In an addition, you're gonna get paid. So what was
going on in your brain? Well, I mean it was
huge for me because I'd been, you know, playing with

(04:32):
my sister and playing in Brindle and playing the troubadour,
and I mean I've been out there for ten years really,
from the time I was fifteen till maybe twenty five.
When this happened just you know, not going to college,
trying to make a living. So it was like an
overnight for me, like three songs on that album. You're right,
I mean not only the recognition, but the fact that

(04:55):
I would suddenly probably make like a serious amount of
money from Okay, So how long did it take to
see a check after the album came out? Trying to
remember it takes a while, I know, That's why I'm
asked you. Yeah, probably a year. Okay. So when the
money came in, did you treat yourself to anything? Well,

(05:16):
I actually had a business manager who was also Linda's
business manager, and he said to me, you you need
to either buy a house or invest your money or
do something because otherwise Uncle Sam's just gonna take it.
And he was a great business manager. And so I
bought my first house, which I lived in for twenty
one years. So where was that house in the Hollywood Hills? Okay?

(05:38):
And now you live in Santa Barbara. I think that's
a well known fact. We're not going to give the street. Um,
did you move from Hollywood Santa Barbara? Was there some
place in between? Now? I moved straight from twenty one
years in the Hollywood Hills to Santa Barbara. What was
the decision there? The decision, I think was the fact
that A the music business was not really you know,

(05:58):
centered here, and I was touring mostly, and I realized
I can't fly from anywhere. I don't have to live
here to go on the road. And I think also
the traffic had gotten so bad that I wasn't leaving
my house. I was stuck in my house except for
maybe these these hours between eleven and one where you
could go out. And and I just went, why am

(06:21):
I doing this? I don't need to live here. I
don't have a job here. Um, And I was tired.
You know, I'm born and raised here. I wanted to
live somewhere different, never lived. So how many years ago
did you move to bar Twenty years ago? Now? Okay,
and that worked for you. You were glad about the position.
I wish I'd done it sooner. Okay, let's go back

(06:42):
to the beginning. You're born and raised here where West
l A West? I mean for those of us, I
literally live in West l A. So we're in West
l A right New u c. L A. On a
street called Warner Avenue. Okay, I don't I can't I
know the street. Where is that? You know, we're a
Hillgard Avenue of course, so it's Hillgard comes down to Wilshire,
it turns kind of into Warner exactly for those people

(07:07):
don't know. It just really right up beside U C.
L A. So in Westwood, which, of course, in the
seventies was the hippest place in l A. And I
was a ghost top really well. When my parents bought
this house in the you know, in the fifties or forties. Um,
you know, it was a little college town. It was
a sleeping college town. You know, they wanted to live

(07:30):
there because it was quiet. Okay, let's stay there. Your
parents or your father did what for a living? My
father was a radiologist, okay, and so was my grandfather.
My grandfather, Um, was the first radiologist in Los Angeles,
actually first radio has doctors didn't specialize then, they were

(07:51):
general practitioners. So he went to USC and and actually
specialized in being a radiologist. This is your grandfather, my grandfather,
and and your father followed in his footsteps. And okay,
so it's married to your mother. Did your parents stay married? Yeah? Okay?
And how many kids too? I have an older sister,
an older sister, what's she up to or what it

(08:12):
was her life about? Um? She and I played music
together a lot and starting as teenagers. Um. And then
she decided she didn't really like it that much, so
she went back to school and got a PhD at
U c l A. And what in history of religions?
And what was your career if if there was one
after the PPD ended up teaching college. Okay, so you're there.

(08:35):
And did your parents make you take piano lessons? And yeah, yeah,
every young Jewish kid has certainly did. So what age
did you start at? Young? Like five six seven? We
had a very strict Russian piano teacher and that was
your parents idea, not your idea, okay? And did you practice? Yeah?

(08:59):
I did, but it was she expected a lot like
two three hours of practicing reading music, And so I
developed a definite distaste for it, and and finally rebelled
and went, I don't want to do this anymore. After
how many years, after three or four? I think by
the time I was eight or nine, I was no,
I don't want to do that. And did you give

(09:19):
up music completely playing music at that point? No? I
played clarinet in school. Yeah, and like yeah, in sixth
grade orchestra. Do you think you could still play it?
I don't know, okay, sexually. And when you go to
school where? I went to school at University Elementary School,
which was part of u c l A, which was
kind of an experimental grammar school, very liberal arts oriented,

(09:43):
lots of music and art. Um. I love that. Um,
it's on the campus of u c l A. Really,
And then I went into public school, which was horrible
from where where was high school? University High School right
in West l A, where a lot of musicians actually
went both before and after you. Okay, so you're in
your house now. It's hard for me to view this

(10:05):
through the eyes of a woman, But in my era
were very similar ages. Um, you got a transistor radio, okay,
which was a really big deal. And when you were
a boy, you listened to sports first. So were you
a radio listener? Were you addicted in that way? Yeah?

(10:26):
I remember having that transistor radio and listening to kf
W B B Mitchell read. But B Mitchell Read late
at night would play things like the Stone Ponies. That's
where I was hearing music like that. Okay, But what
you're I mean, let's let's go back before when the
Beatles hit in sixty four. Are you listening to the radio.
Are you up on popular music? Or is that a

(10:47):
turning point? Oh? Yeah, I was listening to all of it. Basically,
Beatles and Motown on transistor radio was a k h J.
I'm trying to remember definitely, But before that, because they're
really was Beatlemania where a beat you a big music
popular music fan. Well, I'm trying to place my years,

(11:07):
but I mean, what would what would have been before that?
I think, well, that was like the Four Seasons, the
Beach Boys. Yeah, I mean whatever was on the radio,
we were absorbing. So you were definitely hooked on the radio.
And at what point does it cross your mind, WHOA,
I want to do this for a living? Well, see

(11:28):
that's a guitar lessons and that kind of well a
little bit slower, right. You gave up the piano after throw,
I gave a piano. I played violin and clarinet, and
I finally picked up a nylon string. That's how it
all started, a harmony nylon string from Westwood Music, and um,

(11:49):
you know it just sort of rang about for me.
I got that and so when in this history because
we had a nylon string guitar in the house that
we didn't play during the folk era prior to the Beatles,
and then after the Beatles we started playing that and
then went to electrics whatever. So did you get your
folk guitar to play Beatles songs? Or we were playing
you know, we were playing folk music, folk music, Train

(12:13):
Puff the Magic Dragon right right right. It was Peter
Paul and Mary was sort of early music. Yeah, and
five Miles and all that other stuff. So you got
the guitar from Westwood Music? Howd you learn how to
play it? I ha got guitar lessons, but I taught
myself a lot by ear. I remember just having the

(12:33):
turntable and like putting on the Peter Paul and Mary
record and just you know, learning how to play it.
I just could figure it out. Okay. At this point,
do you feel okay? You said you played music with
your sister. Was she playing the guitar too? We were
both playing Okay. But outside of the house where you
had did you have a lot of friends who were

(12:54):
also into playing music? No? No, this was my I
would just get my school work done and then go
into my own head and that was my escape. So
so you were really dedicated. You would really sit there
with the records, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. It was the only
thing that held my attention really, and maybe because public
school was so bad, we didn't have great teachers. But

(13:19):
and then I was fortunate enough I kind of outgrew
this guitar teacher. I had Prayabe when I was thirteen
or fourteen, and she said, I don't think I can
teach you anything else. I think you need to go
to the fellow that taught me. Who was this guy
Frank Hamilton's. It was in the Weavers and taught right
around the corner from here. Were in downtown Hollywood now

(13:39):
Barney Kestle's Music World, which is at the Yucca and
Vine Street I heard about. I've never been there before
my time. L It was a music store and then
little cubicles with guitar teachers. So Frank, of course was
just what an amazing talent. And you talk about learning
the real folk music, you know, he was teaching me

(14:00):
those arrangements from the Weavers. That's where I learned the
waters wide and Okay, so you govern the guitar lesson
traditionally half an hour you call them. You really practice.
This was your thing, okay, and at what point a
do you think, well, this could be a career path.
You know, what happened was I started I don't know why,

(14:20):
I just started writing melodies and music. I wasn't writing lyrics.
My sister was really into poetry, so and we were
both playing acoustic guitar. So we decided, I think this
was right about when Joni Mitchell's first came, right that
we wanted to make music like that. So we started
trying to write songs like that. Okay. For those of

(14:42):
us who grew up outside of Los Angeles, California was
a dream. Okay. We had the Beach Boys, we had
all these other things. We watched all the shows made
in southern California. Now, were you here realizing that you
were at the epicenter of the scene, that the acts
were in Laurel Canyon and you go see in the clubs, etcetera.

(15:02):
You know, when you're in the middle of it, you
don't you don't see that. Of course, looking back now,
it's like insane when I think about all the music
I could go here, and what was happening at the
troubudaor I mean, it's crazy that we could see Joni
Mitchell play for two weeks, two sets at night in
the Tribute or a hundred and fifty people in there.
But I mean it never occurred to me. What's it

(15:24):
like growing up in somewhere in Michigan. I had no idea. Okay,
so you're playing guitar with your sister. At what point
do you start going out to hear in music? Well,
we were already going out to hear music. I mean
we were going to the Tributor every chance we could
get to. Okay, people, this was now you had to
driver's license or how did you get that? She did?
She would drive us. Okay, So you would go to

(15:45):
the Troubadoor. Where else would you go? We went to
the Tribuador God. We would go to the Santa Monica Civic.
They were concerts there. There was this um place called
the Valley Music Theater that turned into a Jehovah's Witnesses
that had like we see the Doors and Jefferson Airplane. There.
There was a place that Cheetah on the Venice Pier

(16:07):
that had like the same kind of acts. Um the
Hullabaloo here in Hollywood. UM had a revolving stage that
would go around and they would switch the band so
it'd be like Neil Diamond and then the stage would turn.
It would be Iron Butterfly, and then the stage would
turn and it would be UM the Sunshine Company. I
mean all those groups. And okay, so you went with

(16:30):
your sister, But was there a whole group of girls
who would go with these shows that you would know
or just the two of you? It was just us,
but we met people. We met other people like in
the Troubadour who were doing the same thing we were doing.
And there were a lot of people on those Monday nights. Okay,
well from my audience talked about Monday night. UM. During
the week the Troubador had national acts like James Taylor,

(16:53):
Joni Mitchell. Earlier than that, we went to see people
like Joe and Eddie and Buffy st re right right right,
you know, Um Joe and Eddio from Toronto. Bob ezbrind
goes on to me all the time I had had
a dial them up on the internet. I've never even
heard of them. Yeah, so there were acts like that.
I remember Tim Buckley was of course one of the

(17:14):
great albums. Yeah, and Robert Klein would open for Tim Buckley.
Really they always would have comedians. So I'm trying to
think of all the people we would go see everything
that was happening there. Um. So you're in terms of money,
you're in my family. If it was had to do
with the arts, there was unlimited money. And in terms
of going to the show, where did the money come from?

(17:37):
Your allowance or your parents? Dug into the roll and
thought about that. I guess it wasn't expensive to go
to the True Door. It probably was like six dollars
or five dollars to get in there. I think we
never had any trouble getting in there. Okay, so it's
Monday night is hoot night. Monday night was whot night. Um.
And maybe there were four or five slots in that

(18:00):
you could get on, just to be clear, because I
was this is before my time, so there were only
four or five acts a night. Well, I think that
the record companies maybe would put acts on for just
those of us who were connected to anything there. The
way you had to do it was you had to
line up at the box office, um, and wait for

(18:21):
them to open the window and then if you were
one of the first four to sign up, you could
get on. So I would literally cut school. I would
climb over the fence at Uni, go to the troubador
and then sit there in that little alcove in the
window and and get my sister and I on to
that thing, you know. And it was terrifying. I was

(18:42):
so afraid doing them. But I mean, Jackson Brown would
be doing them more every now and then somebody like
Neil Young would just come and doing for fun. I mean.
And in those days that the you know, the bar
was on the inside and record company people were there,
and it was scary because a lot of people would
see you. Okay, so do you remember what year you

(19:03):
first appeared? Um? I was sixteen, so probably, um, sixty
nine maybe, Okay, so you're there. Are you any good
the first time? I don't think so. I mean, I
think my sister and I had some promise we could play,
and I think I was writing some interesting music, but um,

(19:24):
I wasn't singing well and we were very young. Really,
you would you bill yourself as the daughters of Chester
p What does that mean? My dad was Chester Paul
bon Off. So we came up with that name for
because Lisa and Carlos seemed stupid. So okay, so how
many times do you do that? At the Troubadoor? We

(19:48):
did them a lot. We also went down to Pasadena
and did the ice House. We did that. There was
a little restaurant in Santa Monica called the Attica. We
would get up and play there. Um. One of our
very first I told the story the other night um
jobs that we got was at this club called Artie
Fat Buckles, which was at Sunset and Gardener, down some

(20:09):
little steps and we got hired. And the people that
hired us said, you'll be opening for these two guys.
Their name is Long Branch Penny was and we were
like who Um, So we walking in there was JD. Southern,
Glenn Fry twenty three and nineteen. Now you're there and

(20:34):
you're having these Are you I hate to use the
modern term, but I will anyway. Are you networking with people?
Are you saying are you just waiting for things to
come to you? I don't think anybody was thinking I wasn't.
We were just excited to be playing there, and I
think to be just in the environment. Um. When Jackson

(20:54):
would get up and play a new song. It would
just be amazing to me. I mean, I don't think
I was really thinking about getting a record del yet.
I was just feeling whether that could be something I
could actually do. Um. We did ultimately make a demo
for Electra. I still have a coffee of it. It's
pretty My sister and I did. We got um. I

(21:18):
went to school with Jim Densmore, who was John Densmore's
younger brother, and some have the Doors of the Doors.
John got us an audition UM with David Andrew Ley. Yes,
so we went in and they had us go in
the studio and play our repertoire live just you know.

(21:40):
So I actually have a tape of us playing that
and laughing and being embarrassed. And we didn't get signed.
But what do you remember what they said to not
make a deal. He said that we needed to remember this,
that we were too young and we needed to go
out and live a little, and we were just we
were horrified. Okay, now what comes to time to go

(22:00):
to college and you come from a family of radiologists,
how does that go down? Not? Well? Not well? Um,
they just said to me, we would like you to
try to at least go. I got into u c
l A. Um, go to college just for one semester, okay,
but when did you decide you weren't going well, I didn't.

(22:24):
I mean at this when we lost a little time here. Actually,
my sister and I broke up because she wanted to
go back to school. So I met Kenny Edwards. How um,
how I had my sister. Oh, here's how it happened.
My sister and I decided we wanted to do transcendental meditation.
So they had a big meeting at Royce Hall at

(22:44):
u c l A. And it was a meeting to
sort of learn about going up to Squaw Valley for
a month with Marishi. So my sister and I went
to this and I remember spotting this really handsome, tall
guy walking up the aisle and I realized it was
that's Kenny Edwards of the Stone Ponies. I mean to me,

(23:06):
he was a rock star of course, of course, and um,
so that's how I met Kenny. Actually I did go
to Squaw Valley and I well a little bit slower, right.
So now you're at Royce, Saul, do you go up
and introduce yourself? Now I didn't there but my sister
and I signed up to go to this month long
course with the Maharishi at Squaw Valley. I was sixteen

(23:28):
or seventeen, she was nineteen. What did your parents say?
They let us go? I'm sure quite why? And so
you were there? How many people were in Squaw Valley
people and Kenny was one of them. And I spotted
Kenny and I had my Martin guitar and I followed
him around and convinced him that I could play the

(23:48):
guitar as well as Joni Mitchell. So was he giving?
Was he giving you the time of day? You know,
he had just gotten out of the Stone Ponies, and
I think he really wanted to focus on his spirituality
and he was not really I don't know. He wasn't
focused on me at least not at that point. But
ultimately there was a romance with Kenny. How much longer

(24:12):
after you meet him? Does? Um? He went off to
India because he was really deep. He was deep into
it and he wanted to become a teacher. So he
went off to India. But when he came back, um,
somehow we got together and he knew Wendy Waldman and
Andrew Gold from another. I can't even remember how he

(24:34):
knew them, but we all got together and decided to
form a group. So our romance began and our group
Brindle began, probably Candle, Oh God, Andrew thought up the
name and he spelled it with a y because he
was such a Birds fan. So we just went, Okay,

(24:55):
that sounds good. So it's got nothing to do with
those dogs that are different colors, striped whatever. Okay, so
you're forming a band because everybody's hanging out or you saying,
we're going to form a band and we're going to
get a deal and we're gonna make it. We were
serious at that point. We wanted to get a deal
and we wanted to make it, and we did get
a deal. Okay, But before that, when did you decide

(25:18):
you didn't want to go to college. I think at
that point, um, it was just becoming obvious to me.
I went for one summer quarter and got seasoned D's
and I was already so deeply in the music business
at that point. Um. No, my parents were not happy
about it, but I think I was lucky I found

(25:38):
what I wanted to do, you know, And Okay, so
you could at what point did you move out of
the house when I was about eighteen, and what we
you know, you're a musician. How you paying the rent?
How did we pay that? I moved in with Kenny
and in a house that Andrew also lived in, and
we rehearsed there and started our band. And so your parents,

(26:00):
I'm down on this totally. In fact, they were like,
if you're going to go do that, then leave your
car here and we're not giving you anything. Um. I
think they thought I would just turn around and come
right back. But I'm not quite sure how we survived.
It was just amazing. We didn't need a lot of
money then, right, that's differently, you can't make it a

(26:22):
minimum wage today, whatever your money. We could ran a
big house for two hundred dollars a month for all
of us. And where was that house? Somewhere in West Ally. Yeah, okay,
so you're living in the house. You form the group,
so everybody in the group is living there. Wendy was
not living there because she was living into Panka Canyon

(26:42):
because she was married. So we three of us were
living there, but Wendy would come there. And how long
after you formed the band did you get your deal
with a and M. Somehow Wendy had met Chuck Plotkin.
I'm not sure how she met Chuck, but Chuck got
interested in us, and then he got us to deal
at Day and M. And you made a complete record

(27:04):
that didn't come out. We did. We made a record
with Chuck and UM Chad Stuart producing, And what was
the rationale for not releasing it? You know, I don't
think they got us. We were two girls and two
guys writing songs. This is before Fleetwood Mac. It's just maybe,

(27:25):
I mean, it really wasn't anything like that. I think
we're on the wrong label. They had the Carpenters, they
had UM, but they had Joe Cocker and Peter Frampton. Yeah.
I think it was two things. I think they didn't
understand what we were trying to do and we weren't
really that great yet. I think we needed to make
another record. Okay, so the record, even you would own

(27:45):
that the record was not I think Wendy was the
closest to being ready to make the record. Um. I
think that it was a little disjointed. Um okay, so
now the records rejected. Does the band girl really break up?
Not right away. We ended up going and playing a
Top forty bar out by the airport called the Carolina Lanes,

(28:06):
which was a nude room, a bowling alley, a rock
and roll basically a biker bar, rock and roll club.
Five sets a night like Top forty, and then we
would intersperse our Brindle songs in there. Wednesday night was
hot pants night. Okay, so what you do on Wendy
were hot pants? How about you? I don't think I

(28:28):
could do it. But the cool thing about that was
I had to play a lot. I learned to get
strong as a player because we had to play all
these Rolling Stones tunes and Carol King tunes, and so
I had to learn all this stuff and play all
the keyboard parts. And I mean it really actually was
good for all of us. I think, um just getting

(28:50):
strong as a musician, being able to play that much.
So how long does that gig last? It didn't last
very long because I think ultimately Linda had guys go
and play out in her band, and for us that
was like, you know, and Wendy got signed to Warner Brothers,
so it kind of fell apart. They went and worked
for Linda. I mean, Kenny was making nine dollars a week,

(29:11):
which was like, oh my god, we started saving money. Okay,
but you were suddenly the odd person out. You didn't
have a solo deal and you weren't with Linda. I
would think that was would be depressing. Well I was.
I was Kenny's girlfriend. So for me, what was interesting
about that time when I got to go out on

(29:33):
the road a lot and kind of watch Linda and
learn from Linda, see what it was like to be
on the road beyond the bus. And you know, she
really taught me a lot just watching what she had
to go through, just watching her do her makeup, watching
her figure out what to wear. So you're on the
road with your boyfriend and Linda and you're learning all

(29:55):
these lessons from Linda. Yeah, and how long does that
go on? I mean I didn't do it all the time,
but I you know, I would do it on and off.
And I mean it was really exciting. She was really
gigantic star. Yeah and so and it was I remember
when they when Kenyan Andrews first started going out with her,
they were sharing a room. I mean, so they really

(30:17):
started right at that base of things. And when they
came back and made the record that had You're No
Good and all that stuff on it. That was really
the big record for her. But they had learned all
that stuff on the road and then I mean, I
remember when they were flying on the Concorde and I think,
caviare you know? So it changed changed, right, It's almost

(30:38):
hard to comprehend. But okay, you're on the road some
now you're at home, you're writing songs. Yeah. At that
point I really just had, you know, to figure out
what I was going to do. So I just kept
trying to get better as a writer. And how did
you get your deal with Columbia. I actually got my
deal playing a Monday night at the Troube door. Um

(31:00):
I started doing those alone. UM Norman Epstein was managing
me and trying to get me gigs wherever we could,
but we would still do those Monday nights and UM
I played one of those. I think Linda had already
decided to do a couple of songs and I was
at the Tributor and this fellow, Peter Philbin came up

(31:20):
to the dressing room and said, I just want to
congratulate you. I love your music. I'm sure you're signed
to Asylum or whatever, and and we was like, no,
we're not signed. So he had just come out to
be an an or guy. He had not signed anybody.
He was brand new. So he brought me to Columbia.
But it was a long road because, um, I don't

(31:44):
think they trusted him a because he was new. So
they made me go to New York to the big
black Rock building and actually audition and for all of
the all of the people, like in one of those rooms,
one of those conference rooms with an upright piano. And
I've never been to New York, and I mean it

(32:05):
was terrifying. I remember I was staying in this hotel
and I woke up. We got there at night and
I looked back to the window and I went, why
is it so dark out there? There's nothing out there.
I didn't have any idea. I was looking at Central Park.
So yeah, in the morning, I had to go his
conference room with I was like Bruce lun Ball and

(32:26):
all those people, Yeah, and just play like on the
stupid piano and played the guitar, had a little dressed on,
and I remember they just thanked me and we left.
And then that night Peter took us to dinner and
I said, well, have you heard anythings like no, and
still nothing. Nothing. The next morning, nothing and I went, okay,

(32:48):
I'm getting out of here, and I just I think
I met up with Kenny on the road and it
was like a couple of days and then finally my
manager call and they said, well, they've decided to saw you.
You must have been elated. I was. And we were
also talking to Clive Davis too, so I can't remember

(33:09):
the time frame of that. But I also had to
go to the Beverly Hills Hotel to the bungalow and
play for Clive on the piano, and I think we
were balancing both of those. Thank God, you didn't sign
with Clive. Well, you know, I didn't sign with Clive
because I remember I played him someone to lay down
beside me, which was something I knew even then I
was really proud of. And he started trying to rewrite

(33:30):
it exactly and I said to Norman, I said, you
know what, I can't do that, you know, because that's
what's going to happen, like with everything. Um, so that's
why we didn't do that. Okay. So one of the
amazing things is about about your music is the insightful lyrics.

(33:50):
Let's start with someone to lay down beside me even
though it's not real, okay, which is the line? How
did you come up with that? I don't know, I
really don't know. I wrote the music first, and I
had the music for a long time, and I knew
that was that it was good, and I just couldn't

(34:11):
come up with any lyrics. And one night, I don't know,
I watched a TV show and I was just walking
around and I just sat down and it came out.
So it was one of the things very fast once
you were in the mood right, and of the tracks
on the first album where they all done that fast
when the time came, or were some eatd out over time.
The you know the way what would happen for me

(34:32):
is I wouldn't write very much, but when I would write,
it would happen fast. Um, so you were waiting for
inspiration to hit you. Yeah, And lyrics were always hard
for me. I could write are so phenomenal. I mean,
you know, if he's ever near, they say just once
in life you find someone right that's right, but love
so hard to find in this state of mind. I
hope I'll know if he's ever hear there's so much wisdom.

(34:55):
I mean, I'm quoting off the top of my head
forty year old lyrics and becau as they mean that
much to me. So I'm wondering, you know, the process
of coming up with that. Maybe it's quick, but what
kind of space are you in to have so much insight?
You know? It's mischief. You know when I look back
on being twenty three or four or however old I

(35:17):
was when I wrote those things, and I don't think
I was all that. I think it was very subconscious
and just stream of conscious. I wasn't really thinking about it.
It was just I think I was accessing just some
part of my brain that was pure and insightful. Well
that's one of the fascinating things about all these musicians.

(35:40):
You know, we laugh at teenager musicians at this point,
but a lot of the people were very young, certainly
Jackson Brown when he started writing whatever. And I can
listen to some of those records now in my sixties
and they finally understand them, okay, having lived all this time,
and I say, how did these people come up with
this in sight? Like at that age? He wrote these

(36:02):
days when he was sixteen, So how does that happen?
I mean, that's mysterious to me because obviously it's sixteen.
What could he know right exactly? But even you, I mean,
you're talking about in terms of relationships. Um, you know
Rose in the garden. You know, about having a relationship

(36:23):
and sometimes you have to let them go that you
know that didn't come from something in your life or
something I was trying to remember that, you know, I
think so, I mean, I think, Um, I don't know,
you know, that first batch of songs for me just came.

(36:44):
I felt like they were a gift. It just kind
of came to me from, you know, some other wonderful place.
You know. I still feel like that. I don't know,
you know, I don't. I was never able to go
I think I'm going to write a song about this,
or come up with a title like some people will
come up with a title and write a song. I
could never intellectualize about writing like that. And that's why

(37:07):
I think I'm not prolific, because I don't really know
how to. Yeah, but a couple of things, I mean,
you know, isn't it always love that you know makes
you cry, breaks your heart, but you wouldn't have it
any other way. I mean, these are songs that really
helped me through things. I mean, you know there's some
Jackson Brown lines to like, uh, you know, well without

(37:28):
quoting those things at this particular point, this is not
the kind of wisdom you find on a Kelly Clarkson
are justin Bieber record. In addition, it's not the kind
of wisdom you found back then, which I believe is
one of the I mean, I remember, you know, I've
told people about that album. You know, in the nineties,
back in the days of a O. L Chat, people
said they're in the music as you gotta get this

(37:50):
record and I'm not doing it. The both smoke up
your ask. That's how much the record meant to me.
So I have to believe you may not be revealing it,
but beneath the surface you must be a study of humanity.
You must be a student of humanity or have insight
that the average person probably does not. Maybe, Okay, let's

(38:12):
let's stay with writing songs. Okay, your first album comes out. Okay,
you're riding the coattails of Linda having covered your songs.
So what's it like when your album finally comes out? Well,
it was interesting. Um, there was some confusion obviously, because
Linda's album had come out like six months before mine,
and there were some similar musicians on the tracks too,

(38:36):
So um, I got a tour opening for Jackson. I
did a short club tour, and then I got a
tour opening for Jackson, and um, I had this moment
where I was playing the songs and realizing these people
think that I'm covering, of course, and it took me

(38:57):
about three or four nights to go, oh my god,
I'm going to have to how people I wrote these
They don't know. UM. So that was kind of horrifying
in a way. So there was some of that confusion.
But once I once I talked a little and explained
to people, and they were really on my side and
it was actually pretty wonderful. UM. And people often asked

(39:18):
me like, are you sorry? You gave Linda your best songs?
But if I hadn't, I don't know, you know what,
people have noticed me as much. I mean, would my
have first album done as well? Would people have paid
attention to it? Maybe not? You know, so when you
went out on the road, you go out alone. No,
I had a band on that first tour. Yeah, okay,
so you okay, you do that with Jackson, what's the

(39:40):
next step. Well, I did a couple of tours with Jackson,
and then of course you're in that Columbia Records time
thing where it's like, well, you gotta make another record,
so you come back. It took me ten years to
make that first one. I'm on the road for the
first time, and then you come home and you want
to breathe, and they want you to make another record.
And I really had maybe one or two songs, and

(40:03):
I was like, oh my god, you know, now I
have what six months to do this, So it was
pretty terrifying trying to you know, really then trying to
crank stuff out. I mean I did it, um, and
I had some help. Actually at the time, I was
dating Cameron Crowe and he was so young. He was

(40:24):
so much because I certainly know Cameron, I certainly know
Nancy Wilson and I don't, but I didn't know that
was part of your history. Well it was brief. But
he was so disciplined and so good about writing every day, um,
because I think he was working on fast times. Then
it was before that when that was becoming a book.

(40:45):
Um that he was such a good influence on me
because I was trying to write Restless Nights, and he
would write every day, and so I would write every day,
and um, I lived like a mile down the road
from him, and it really helped me focus and get
that record room. But let's stop just for one second.
How does it end with Kenny? Oh? How did it
end with Kenny? I don't know. It just kind of

(41:07):
fell apart, you know, the days of those days of
Hollywood and craziness and drugs and you know, it's just,
you know, we were together for nine years and it
just kind of we were great friends, but we just are.
Romance kind of disappeared. So we stayed friends for up
until a day. Okay, So how do you meet Cameron Crowe?

(41:30):
I met Cameron Crowe at the Universal Amphitheater at probably
at one of Linda's shows. Outside um, I think he
introduced himself. He was still writing for Rolling Stone, right, Yeah,
So okay, you know these are the perks of being famous.
Any other perks of being famous? Oh god, I don't know.

(41:51):
You mean meeting people like that? Meeting people opportunities, you know,
once you're a known quantity, not that I don't know.
I mean, maybe you get into first class occasionally on
an airplane. That doesn't even happen anymore. Okay, So Cameron
is very disciplined. So your disciplined and you crank out
the album. Are you happy with the album? I was

(42:14):
happy with most of it. I mean some of it.
That album to me has the water is wide, it
has um only a fool it had. I'm trying to
think one of their songs were on that, But I
thought that was a pretty good album. It had trouble again,
um when you walk in the room the letter, So

(42:35):
I mean it wasn't you know. I think my first
album is still probably my best album. But for how
fast I had to crank that one out, I think
it was okay. Okay, Now being on the inside of
the belly of the beast, Um, what was the label's
reaction into what degree was that record successful in their
eyes and your eyes commercially? You know, it was always

(42:57):
so hard for me to tell what they thought. It
was such a big record company and there were so
many big artists Paul McCartney and Michael Jackson and other
things that they were focused on. I don't really ever
think that that I got the shot. Maybe that I
should have had. I think they tried. Um, it's hard
to say, you know. I mean I think the production maybe,

(43:19):
you know, I don't know why there weren't more hits
on some of those things. I think, oh, baby don't
go with on that too. I think there were hit
songs on that album. Maybe we didn't produce them as hits.
I feel like there should have been hits. Um, And
is that record promotion? Is that the record itself? I
mean it's hard to hindsight when you try to look
at that and go, well, why couldn't they make Trouble

(43:40):
again it or Baby Don't go it? I mean, did
we not make the right record? I don't know. You
got to deliver a third album it was even harder. Yeah,
and then you they the so called work track was
a cover first, right. Um. Glenn Fry is the one

(44:02):
that played me personally. Um. I was at his house
and I don't know if you know, Glenn had a
great collection of obscure R and B stuff, so um,
he played me the Jackie Moore version of that from
seventy seven or something, and I remember saying to him, Wow,
what a cool song. I'm surprised nobody's made that a hit.
And he said, yeah, I was thinking I should send

(44:23):
that to Bonnie Rate. I was like, wait just a
minute there. So, um, that's how that came about. Glenn
produced part of that album, and then he and I
had a falling out. Well that's good, he's just he's
so we could talk. What was the falling out about?
I never could quite figure it out. Um, Glenn was
an interesting person and volatile and um, you know, once

(44:48):
Glenn decided he was not into something, then he was done. Um.
I don't really think it was anything that you could
point to specific. But so Kenny Cannon came in and
took up the the last half of that and help
me make the rest of that record. So it was
it was a tough album for me, Okay, and then
that album comes out and you're back on the road

(45:12):
and what is it like? It was pretty fun actually,
because I had a really good band. I had Kenny
and Andrew in my band and Mike Bots on drums
and a young keyboard player, Michael Rouff on keyboards. So
we had a great band and did a lot of
fun shows. So and I had a hit record of
some sort. Um. I also got to go out and

(45:34):
open for James Taylor on a summer tour, which you know,
James is my hero. So being able to watch James
every night and open for James was that was a
treat for me. And okay, that's cycle Lens. Then you
don't make a record. What happens? What does Columbia say? Well,
that's when the ship kind of hit the fan for me,
because I think I came home from that and that

(45:56):
album and all the things that kind of happened, and
I just got really depressed. Um and actually, looking back now,
clinically depressed at that point in my life, I, Um,
I just didn't want to make any more records. I
didn't want to do it. I didn't want to write, UM,
I didn't. I think I was confusing my personal happiness

(46:18):
with my professional happiness, Like why aren't I happy in
my personal life with you know, this success? And so
I kind of just rebelled against everything and I basically stopped,
you know, doing anything. So ultimately I got dropped by Columbia.
My manager left and went to work for a record label. UM,

(46:39):
so I had no record label, UM and I just
it took me a couple of years. I was in
a lot of therapy trying to get my life together. Um,
I learned that it takes medication to get out of
depression and really didn't exist then. Um. So, no matter

(47:03):
how much therapy I had, I couldn't seem to pull
myself out of that. And I didn't really come out
with prose Act till about eighty eight or nine, and
I finally I was at a therapist and she said
to me, you know, I said, look, I'm good. When
I leave here, I'm good for thirty minutes and then
I get home and it's just I'm right back there.

(47:23):
And she goes, you know, I think maybe you need
to be evaluator. And I went to somebody and they said,
I'm interested who you went to? Remember? Well, I went
towards psycho. Yeah yeah, but was he U c l A.
I went to somebody U c l A. We ultimately
got medical trouble. That's why his interest was the same.

(47:43):
They ask you all those questions, are you hopeless? Do
you know? Do you lose interest in things? And there
was a checklist then, um, and she said, well, I
think you need to be on some medication. I was like, fine,
just something and it was mind blowing to me. Within
three days of taking medication. I woke up and I went, oh,
my god, is this how normal people feel? Do you

(48:06):
remember what the medication was? It was prozac. I didn't
wake up with this feeling of like dread and hopelessness. Um,
when you wake up like that, you can't work, you
can't write, you can't create. Okay, so let's go back.
So do you still take prozac? No? Not anymore? How
long did you take it? For quite a while? I

(48:29):
mean I had, you know, probably ten fifteen years. And
how you decided to go off? I just started weaning
myself off of it, as it wasn't with a professional Yeah.
I think that once my life got back together and
things started to turn around again and I felt pretty
good and just I just experimented with it and I

(48:49):
was able to to stay off of it. Other people
my family and not the case. I think it's very genetic.
My mother was very depressed. My grandmother apparently couldn't get
out of bed and dress herself. I hear those things
about my great grandmother, So I think it's passed down
through the maternal side of my family. Um, I watched

(49:11):
my mother, I mean, as a kid, certainly going through it.
So I'm lucky that there was something for me and
I was able to kind of get what about your sister,
same thing for her? And so, but if you look
at it externally, if you live in Santa Barbara and

(49:32):
you live alone, Yeah, you live alone, that sounds like
it could be depressing. Yeah. Well, but I mean I stopped.
I stopped taking medication along before I moved up there. Okay,
but I'm just talking about what I guess I should
ask a question. Since you stopped taking the medication, do
you have episodes of depression. I've had one or two,

(49:56):
but they're really more about something specific, which is man
to Jamal, not this other kind of low grade thing
that you have no reason for having. Let's do not functional,
let's go back. Okay. So, but at the time you've
been on the road, everything was not perfect when you

(50:17):
started to sink into this depression. So do you think
the triggers were there? Yeah? I think that I wanted
a personal life too. I want to be happy, I
want to be in a relationship. I wanted all this
other stuff and I didn't have any of that. It
seemed like I had this music thing, and maybe I
was confused about what I thought that would bring to me,

(50:40):
and I think that was the ugly realization, which is
I'm a big believer in that. I mean, you know yours,
but generally speaking, I find that a lot of acts,
you know, are not whole emotionally, and they ultimately believe that,
you know, music will save them, and when the music
can't save him anymore, they can't write it other hit record.

(51:01):
Now that is not your case. You ultimately wrote great
stuff off that, But I find that a lot of
time people say, well, how come they can't write anywhere
they were in a different space. Yeah, I think, I
don't know. I think when I was younger, I was
hungry to get away from my family growing up and
to be a different kind of a person and to
prove that. There was a lot of proving I can

(51:24):
do this. And then once you've proven it in a
way and you've had some success, um, then you kind
of go, okay, well now what you know? So I
did that? Okay? So you say, now what, you've made
enough money that you didn't have to worry about money temporarily?
Not really okay, but you know that to duality, you're depressed,

(51:44):
and then you get depressed because you're not working and
it gets worse, and then you get to press because
you don't have any money, right, so then you have
to do something. Just basically what happened to me was
it got so bad I was going to lose my house.
I was like, all right, I gotta pull this out somehow,
I gotta do something. So what did you do? I
think I just did whatever I could. I tried to

(52:05):
write songs for movies. Um, I got lucky on I
met a fan who was writing, who was a music
supervisor for Miami Vice, and I got to write a
song for one of those shows, and that led to
making some demos for a record label, and just stuff
started happening again. Okay, so then ultimately you make a

(52:27):
record for Danny Goldberg. How does that come together? Um?
Jeff Hyman, who was a big fan of mine, UM,
was a and R for Danny Goldberg, and I think
he sought me out, and Um, I had a bunch
of songs at that point, I'd put a few together
and that's how I got signed there. Okay, ultimately, when

(52:48):
it's all said, because the album label ultimately went to
Funked and before you were on Columbia Good experience or
bad experience on gold Castle. It was good, really. I mean,
I think that was kind of a weird time the
early eighties a singer songwriters. The music was changing, and
so I don't think it was as easy of a
time for me or for a label like that. But

(53:09):
there was this whole um radio format, the Wave, which
saved me because they would play all this jazz stuff
and then they would play a few vocal things. So
they played two songs from that album a lot, and
that really kind of remember what two songs they were. Yes,
it was New World and Way of the Heart. Okay,

(53:29):
because this album is a real return to form, obviously
made on a budget as opposed to you know, working
for Columbia. But you know, goodbye my friend. I remember
writing about that on nine eleven. Okay, that's certainly a
great song and the best part of you. That's got
a great sound on it. Okay, still be getting over you. Wow.

(53:52):
I'm someone takes a really long time to get over people,
if I ever get over them. So that was there,
and you know, it's just one great track after another,
the one you mentioned, New World and all my Life
and tell me why. I mean, it's a surprise because
most people have been away cannot recapture the heights. But

(54:13):
this was something you said, Well, I it was on
a major label, maybe it would have been promoted to
the point would be as successful as the previous albums. Well,
I feel like if I hadn't lost those years and
I had made that album for Columbia, maybe, um, it
would have been different. Um. You know, Mark Oldenberg produced
that and he did a beautiful job. Unfortunately, that was
the time of the drum machine. So, um, you know,

(54:37):
we would like to go back and read something. Well,
you know that's one of the other things. Is even
there somebody you know the new Hosier track, it's got
a drum machine on and go. That's I mean, can
we can we get rid of that? Okay? So you
put out that album, okay, and that's kind of the
end of the new material, right, So what does that

(54:59):
sell us? I don't know. You know, um, I have
a couple of new songs, but you know, I've just
kind of I don't know. It's hard for me. It's
hard for me to be motivated to do it, I think,
especially in this climate. Well that's my question. You know,
now you can spend all the time and make the
record and ultimately fine, it's it's over in a day.

(55:21):
You put it out and get the bank and that's it.
So is that the motivating it is for me? I
mean I think what CITs now are something to sell
on the road, right, and maybe someone will play it
somewhere on a folk show or something. But so that
because I don't just do it because I gotta do
it and I gotta right and I'm not one of
those people. It's hard for me. I mean, it's hard

(55:43):
to make a record. It's a lot of work. Um
what about the concept of getting a publisher because you
know your skill level is at the A level and
theoretically writing a song that could be covered by somebody else.
Maybe I don't really know how that works these days. Um, well,
you publish your own songs, who administers them? I do, okay?

(56:05):
So you do everything yourself. You're not with you know,
because they have these administrators like Cobalt. I mean there's
different sides of publishing, but they have you know, Cobalt
in downtown based on technology where they say they can
find all this money overseas, etcetera. You haven't explored that, well,

(56:25):
I have a great business manager who they administer that
and they take care of that stuff for me. So
I don't know if to find out, I think you
should explore that. Not that the business manager shouldn't get paid, okay,
but it's not like the old days with one guy
can go to meet him and you know, collect all
the money, etcetera to have those meetings. And it's of
course there's certain publishers who work you know, who worked

(56:47):
tracks to what degreeed people are open to that you'd
have to meet with people. Okay. So if you're not
the type of person who needs to write music, what
is your life about today? Well, I'm on the road
a lot um with Nina Gerber, my great guitar player.
So we've been touring a lot um. So I do that.
Um usually weekends we do weekend wyor Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. UM.

(57:10):
I do have this new CD, right, we'll get to that.
We'll get to that in a minutum. And I live
in a beautiful place. I you know, I live on
an acre and I have gardens, and I have lots
of friends, and I don't deal with traffic, and um,
you know it's good. I don't know, you know, if
I made a record, what like you say, what it's
over in a day, right, right, it's hard. So let's

(57:32):
go back. So now you've reached the pitnacle. You've had
a hit record, you had lit a rod stack cover
your records, you had a major label deal, and you
also say you woke up one day and your personal
life was not living up to snuff. In your mind
all these years later, any regrets anything you would have

(57:53):
done differently knowing we can't. But as we're talking about well,
I think, you know we were talking about this. I
think if I were I wish that I had had
someone smart enough around me to say, you know, this
time in the in the music business, it's like being
an athlete. You probably got about ten years where you
really have your opportunity and don't worry about anything else,

(58:16):
just to go for it because you can do all
this other stuff later. And I wish that I hadn't
been so naive about that. I realized that I had
a lot of opportunity, and obviously the mental stuff made
it harder because I was not feeling good. But I
regret that I didn't really you know, when I kind
of had it in the palm of my hand. I
didn't really go for it. And then what about I

(58:38):
mean this is, you know, I've dedicated my life to
a certain path and as a result, I got married.
My ex wife said she tricked me into it, which
is a whole separate story. And I don't have any children,
and it's a very different path from everybody else, and
I'm willing to own that, although that forces career issues
to be much more important than if you have children.

(59:02):
So do you have any regrets you didn't go the
other way get married to have children. Yeah, a little bit,
But I think I probably did the right thing. I
think I probably wasn't going to be a great mother.
I wouldn't be I would have had to change everything.
I wouldn't have been able to be on the road.
I think if I had a kid, I wouldn't have
been able to leave my kid. So I think I
would have ended up quitting anyway. I don't think that

(59:24):
I was someone that could do both. And did Lisa
have kids? I have two beautiful nieces. Okay, so let's
go back to the new album. The album is very
interesting because there covers of your own songs. There's cover
of Jackson Brown song, why don't you tell the audience
about your new album? Well, actually, the reason this I

(59:44):
even started at all was I was thinking, you know,
I have all these songs, but I don't own the
masters to them, so in order to license something, I
don't really have any control. So it seemed like it
would make a lot of sense for me to rerecord
these things so I could own the masters, own them,
I own all the publishing, and then I could control it.
So it really was done initially kind of as a

(01:00:06):
business move. I thought it was because that's usually what
people It was not meant to be a c D,
so I just thought, I'm just going to go in
cut these songs. Nina and I play them beautifully, and
I think, actually, I think I'm singing better than I
did a long time ago. So I thought we'd just
take a weekend and just we'll just blow them all out.
And it started to come out really good. So then

(01:00:29):
I thought, well, I have all these tracks, maybe I
should do something with it. So it kind of became
a CD. And then the Jackson Brown tune, I'm not
sure a lot of people heard because it was on
this other obscure tribute album. So I put that on there,
and then I went in and cut a song of
Kenny's as well. Um, and that's so you know, at
least it's something okay. But if you read the credits,

(01:00:53):
the producer engineer his memories thanks, so I googled and
he died at some point. It was a pretty crazy time.
I was just getting going on this. We had cut
the tracks and he had a heart attack fort nine
and died. It took us a while to get back
into the studio to do this. Then we had a

(01:01:14):
huge wildfire and a mud slide. So all this stuff happened,
but the CD did get finished with a great friend
of Robinson, I Canbury, who's the one who passed away,
Shaan mckugh, another great musician up in Santa Barbara. Because
it's hard to drive down to l A and work
on a record, let's just go back for a second.

(01:01:34):
Was your house affected by the fires and the floods?
Mine was okay? But all around me not good. Okay.
So the project, if you look at some of the
recording dates, were done a couple of years ago, right,
So when did you decide you were going to actually
release it? As soon as I finished it. Yeah, so
it just took us a while because of all those

(01:01:54):
disasters to get it done. Really are the recording dates
on there? I didn't even notice that. Well, there was
something in there that indicated to me, maybe the fact
he got credits and he died a couple of years ago,
which is what tipped me off. Okay, yeah, I think
it's just by the time we gotta beything finished. Okay.
So are you playing some of these tracks that are

(01:02:15):
you have not previously recorded live? Yeah? Yeah, you mean
like the Jackson song we play and karre Me Home,
which is a new song we're playing that. We haven't
played Kenny song yet. We need to do that. We
have played it in the past. We play all of
those and other ones too. So I mean I'm mostly
I'm touring, okay. But and then you sit there after

(01:02:38):
the gig at the merch table and you signed the
c ds, etcetera, and you find your way. It still
wants the CDs. They do, they really do. And they
want vinyl too. I'm gonna have to get some vinyl.
They definitely want vinyl. It's an interesting thing though. I
hear from acts that go on the road and so
other things. You know, the stand the CD can't die.
That's what I'm selling. Although I think a lot of

(01:02:59):
times when it's autographed, even vinyl, the people just want it.
They don't even play it, but as long as they
buy it. Now, going back to being on the road,
a lot of people just stop. Okay, So at what
point did you decide that you wanted to work? I mean,
I don't think you've been working in the whole last
twenty five years, have you. I've been working a lot.

(01:03:21):
Actually maybe there were sometimes I didn't in the eighties,
but no, starting in the nineties, I've had agents and
been on the road. Who's your agent now? My agent
is s R O Artists and Madison, Wisconsin. Yes, okay.
And you do you enjoy playing on the road or
do you find that it's a you know, a drudge drudge.

(01:03:43):
Once I'm up there, I enjoy it um obviously the
traveling and flying and driving not so much. That's hard.
So in a typical year, how many gigs do you play?
Probably thirty or forty, not a ton. Okay. Well, as
I say, I've seen you a few times in the
last couple of years, and I agree with you. You know,
your voice is spectacular, which is not the case with

(01:04:06):
most people as their careers have gone on. You know,
there are a lot of people and I won't even mention.
We just have to go see them, even selling tickets
and you're there and you go, wow, this is bad.
I know. I don't know. I guess it's just I'm lucky.
It must be a genetic thing or something. I haven't
had to tune. You know, a lot of people tune
their guitars down. I have to step. I haven't had
to do that yet, which is good. Okay, we're all

(01:04:28):
getting older by the minute. With the time you have left.
Any specific goals, I don't know. You know, I'd like
to figure out how to write some more songs, you know,
without it being uh something that's difficult. You know. I
don't know. I know people really want them for me,
and I feel bad about that because people ask me
or please make a new record, please make a new record,

(01:04:51):
and I don't know. I gotta get motivated, okay, the
people who ask you to make new record, or fans
or business people or other musicians. No, it's always fans.
Like I put this out and we look on Facebook
and people are complimentary and they love it, but they
do go please, can we have a whole new CD
of new songs? Okay, the audience wants it. You find

(01:05:16):
it difficult? But how much of that is what we
talked earlier? Even if I make it, it's not like
the old days. You know, we get all this promotion
and you get all this uh you know mind share?
Is it that? Or you find it difficult to write?
I think it's said it's difficult for me to write.
I think if I wrote easily and easy enough to record,

(01:05:38):
and um, it's just not that easy for me. But
I'm also not very disciplined. I don't sit down and
try well. It seems to me, is I'm analyzing you
here that you're somewhat of a perfectionist and if the
song is not going to be at the level of
your other songs, you don't want to do it. Well,
why would I want to do that? I don't want

(01:05:59):
to make a shifty out. No, no, just hanging in
there with to begin with, it's talking about my own
expert my experience totally different. When I was in high school,
Mr Harrity in the English class, he'd taken a sabbatical
which in public school. I don't know how that happened,
but he took a year off and he came back
and every morning, for five minutes, we had to write,
and if you didn't have anything to say, you had

(01:06:20):
to repeat the last three words. So I am a
writer completely different from everybody else. Everybody is. The picture
of a writer is well, I make a cup of coffee,
I sharpened my pencils, and my goal is to get
a page done a day. I could not be doing
it completely different. I got a record blasting arm standing
the tar. I got inspiration. It's exactly how you say

(01:06:40):
you wrote those earlier songs. Okay, it hit, and I
got to be near the computer fast enough to do that.
But I do know. I mean, I've done it long enough.
I'm not gonna write anything terrible, just like you're not
gonna run anything terrible. But you you're right it and
you say, okay, this is not going to be at ten.
You know you can see it veering as you do.
But two things happen. One, you never know what will

(01:07:03):
resonate with the audience. You know, when you hit in eleven,
you're done, and you go, this is just great, and
you'll hear it from people. But even if you have
a seven or eight using you know this one to
ten scale, somebody resonates. And the point is, I hate
to admit it. You know a lot of times you
get warmed up or I had a couple of times.

(01:07:25):
I haven't been in such great space myself the last
couple of weeks, and I said, well, I want to
write to make myself feel better. And I was out skiing,
and by time I'm done skiing, I'm not in the mood. Okay.
Finally I said, I'm just gonna start writing because I'm
in a bad mood. And all this stuff for the
last four days came out that I didn't even know

(01:07:46):
it was going to come out. Okay, Now you have
to want to do it. I mean, I think the
nature of being creative person is to be to a
degree ill adjusted, and the creativity is a way of
connect thing with people. And you know two things. One,
when you connect with people feels really good. But this

(01:08:07):
is analogous to your point about being at the therapist,
which I know totally. You're at the therapist, you're talking
up a storm, even though you can't talk outside the office.
You leave, you're on the top of the world in
thirty or forty five minutes, Bang, you're at the bottom, okay,
and being That's one thing I envy in a musician.
If you happen to write a hit song. On one level,
it's a sentence. You got to play it for the

(01:08:27):
rest of your life. But on another level, you can
perform it, whereas if you're writing prose, you're right at
once that's it. Okay. So you know, I think there
has to be a raw motivation. You know. The other
thing is we all get older and we ask, well,
you know I did this, Should I be doing something

(01:08:47):
completely different? You know I'm not gonna live forever. But
the question becomes as I somewhat, I mean, someone of
your caliber. I have no doubt that if you applied yourself,
you could get very major covers. Because we have the

(01:09:08):
hip hop world. That's not your world, okay, then only
we have the pop world. They don't write most of
these songs, and if you listen to the lyrics, they're
not that good. Okay. Sure, when you write a song,
you have assuming you say yes, you know, you have
no control over what they're gonna do with it. But

(01:09:28):
you know, most people can't do it, you can do it. Yeah,
I guess I'm intimidated by that world of getting your
songs covered out there. It just seems like all those
young artists were writing with the producers and they want
the writing, the publishing and the credit. And I mean,
I know some great writers that aren't getting covers people
in Nashville. So I don't know. I guess I'm skeptical.

(01:09:52):
I was too skeptical. And this is one of the problems.
If you're ignorant, you're better off because all the things
you're bringing up are totally reel by the same token.
If you write a hit song, okay, that will help
your mood. In an addition, I can certainly say you
can't change a certain word. I'm totally with that. And

(01:10:15):
you also say, well, I'm not giving up, but maybe
even though it's a scam, you give up and then
as you gain you know, it's like anything else with leverage.
The question, you know, as I say, question, is whether
you would get off on it. I mean, only you
can answer that. I think it's just getting back in

(01:10:35):
the game, you know. I think I'm disconnected from all
of the you know, the outlets for that. So i'd
have to well, I would say that you know, there
are not some publishers are better at collection, some better
or better at covers, And I think having a couple
of meetings with these people would show you opportunities. For
you can have a meeting enough to sign anything, and

(01:10:57):
you can also write a track and then say this
is the track. You don't have to give up anything
to do it. Because I'm here giving advice because I'm
a big believer. I mean, I find the same motivation
of the internet. You know, there's so much stuff out there.
You write something and you go, well, you know, who
am I going to reach than my core audience? And
it's somewhat somewhat depressing for especially for those of us

(01:11:20):
who lived through an era what it was different. Well, yeah,
I just have to get off my butt and be
a little more disciplined. I think I know it's in there.
I mean, I went to a writing coach when I
had writer's block during that whole period, and somebody sent
me to a writing coach and he said, Okay, I
just want you to wake up every morning and just
write a page, just stream of consciousness. Don't It doesn't

(01:11:42):
matter what you say. You don't kind of read it
later or anything, just right. So every morning, before coffee
or anything, just do the writing. And he goes and
then bring it back into me um, and he goes,
just somewhere in there, there's going to be something, find
a line. There's got to be something in that you
can is as a song title. And I was like,
oh God, he's going to give me an assignment. And

(01:12:05):
so I had had a dream about my dad or something,
and I wrote this thing about I always just want
to stay Daddy's a little girl. And because that's what
I want you to, Okay, here's this. I know you
to write a song called Daddy's Little Girl. That's a
great fool And I was just like, oh, I don't
want to do this is awful. It's assignment. I don't
write that way. It'll come out bad, and I don't

(01:12:26):
want to end. I went and forced this song out
and it's a great song. So it just proved to
me that I was full of it thinking that I
couldn't write that way. So I think you're right. I mean, basically,
if you're talented, you're not going to write something horrible.
You might write not write the best thing you wrote

(01:12:47):
but if you have those skills, you're probably gonna write. Okay,
so you're right, I have I have no. Well, the
other thing about my writing is different. You always want
to write in eleven and you're disappointed once you've been
doing a long time throughout eleven. But one thing is
for sure. You cannot hit the eleven each time. Nobody can.

(01:13:07):
But if you stay at it, all of a sudden,
it's always like you know, for me, it's like what
you say, either as a raw stimulation or I'm in
the shower, something just comes to me and then it does.
But you know, also as your point with your depression,
you get older, you've seen the game, so it's you know,
it's it's not as exciting. It's hard to get motivated. Again.

(01:13:29):
I think that's part of it. I'm probably too much,
too negative about that, but right I just wish I
was one of those people that just I've no people
that just go, I just have to write because I'm
not happy if I'm not writing songs, and I'm like,
can you give me an injection of some of that? Okay,
when you do write a song, let's say you're writing
the lyrics, you say, it's more difficult. When you finally

(01:13:50):
do you talk about the earlier songs coming all at once?
How fast? How long has it taken write the lyrics
for a song. Maybe you dare too so very quickly. Yeah,
and not all day long. I mean either kind of
have it or I don't. It either sort of happens
or a pieces of music that just sit there for

(01:14:12):
years that never gets well. You know, the only thing
about it is when your music, generally speaking, certainly not personally,
it resonates with people who are square pigs in a
round hole, okay, in that they use the music to
feel good about These are not I'm not saying a
cheerleader or football captain can't enjoy your music, but people

(01:14:36):
who you're when your fans say they want more, they
want more insight, that's what you know. We Joni Mitchell,
we wanted more and then she lost the plot and
she's kind of crazy anyway. But I don't know, you know,
I'll I'll let you get up off the couch. But
those are some of my thoughts. Now it's inspiring. I

(01:14:57):
think those are good thoughts. Okay, But let's it to
Carla Bonoff. You can where are you playing? Yolk? For
the next six months. Oh, it's on our website. We're
going to the Northwest. Um, then we're going back east.
We're going everywhere, go everywhere. And these tend to be
solo dates or you I know you played with j
D in Minneapolis, but these other gigs mostly just yeah

(01:15:21):
for an evening with Carla bonof Right, So how many
songs might someone expect to hear? Um? We play almost
two hours actually, So if you go, you're gonna hear
the song you want, and you can buy the new album.
And you can also, because I know I did it,
you can stream it on Spotify another streaming services. Carla,
it has been wonderful to have you here. Thank you

(01:15:43):
so much.