Keith Carlock

Drummer extraordinaire Keith Carlock has been Steely Dan's man on the skins for decades. Hear the story of how he made it from Mississippi to the big time!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast.
My guest today is drummer Keith Carlog. Keith, how'd you
get the gig with Steely Dan?

Speaker 2 (00:20):
I was living in New York and playing with a
guitar player by the name of Wayne Krantz, who an
incredible guitar player. We had a trio that we were
playing at the fifty five Bar in New York, this
little die bar every Thursday, and it was myself Tim

(00:43):
LeFave and on bass and Wayne Krantz on guitar. Wayne
had played with Steely Dan in ninety six on their
tour I think it was the Art Crimes tour, and
so they were already aware of his music, fans of
his music, and they came out to hear us on occasion.

(01:08):
Donald and Walter both came at various times to hear
the band, and at one point I remember Wayne telling
me you won't believe this man, but Donald wants to
play with us. He wants to sit in and play
Rose with us one night, and I was like, I
was freaking out. It was like, this is so cool.

(01:29):
And I think they got together and learned some of
the music together, some of the heads and things that
would would help to prepare or whatever. And so that's
it happened one night on a Thursday night, and it
was probably late nineties. I was I'd been to New

(01:52):
York maybe maybe a year and a half at that point.
I had moved from Texas where I went to Cool
and he played the entire night and I remember him
sitting right in front of me. It was a small
little club. I don't know if you know of it,
but it's a tiny little dive bar, but it's it's

(02:13):
got a lot of history and you know, kind of
a New York legendary place, you know, just where you
can just play music, play whatever you want, people come
and listen, and really great vibe there anyway, And I
think that night will Lee was on bass because Tim
was out of town, couldn't make the gig, so Willie

(02:35):
was playing bass, myself, Wayne and Donald on Rhodes. And
it was one of those pinch yourself moments for me,
where you know, I'm playing with three of my heroes, really,
you know, and you know, like I said, I'd only
been in New York for a little while, and so

(02:55):
it was incredible, had a great time and and that
was it. And then later, you know, like I said,
Walter was also coming down to hear us from time
to time, and you know, never thought it would turn
into anything. I didn't know, but they invited us to

(03:15):
play or to come to their studio and record this band,
the Wayne Crench Trio. And it was a studio they
had at the time on the Upper East Side in
nineties somewhere and called River Sound. And we went in
and Donald and Walter were both there. They were kind

(03:38):
of more or less producing it. From what it seemed like,
we recorded all day long and we're getting some sounds
and I can remember working with Walter and some of
the drum sounds in the room and doing some tunings
things and changing some things and experimenting a little bit,
and and that was amazing, you know, just hanging with

(04:04):
them and getting to know them a little bit and
seeing how they work in the studio and just it
was it was incredible. And it was maybe I don't
know how much longer it had been a while they
were going in the studio to record a song for

(04:25):
Joni Mitchell tribute record, and they were recording the song
Carrie from Blue and they asked me to come in.
I got called from the contractor, and of course I
was geeking out, like, oh my god, it's crazy because

(04:46):
just to be asked, you know, is one thing, but
then if they actually use what you do, you know,
it's like a big feather in the cap for a musician,
you know, to be a part of a steely dan whatever,
you know. So we I remember we got the the
track that day, got the rhythm track. They were just

(05:07):
wanting to get the drums, nice and consistent, solid track
and then they could just build from there. But I
think we got a nice rhythm track with everyone playing.
I remember Donald playing roads, Walter was playing bass, wish
I could remember, and I think John Harrington was there
on guitar. Could have been Humocracken as well. Anyway, my

(05:33):
memory it's not perfect there, but it was. It was
an amazing session. I just I felt pretty good about it,
and they weren't. They were into it. They finished the
song out. I don't think that that it ended up
being used. I remember that song because I guess they
changed the ginger and the lyrics or something to fit

(05:55):
the mail that I found out she didn't like it.
I asked all about that at one time. I guess
she wasn't. She didn't like it, so they didn't use
it for the record. That song actually reappeared on the
internet after twenty years. It was I don't think it
was ever heard, and I found it and some people
posted it and I asked Donald about it, and he

(06:16):
told me that story that I don't think she liked that.
We changed the lyrics, you know, a little bit to
fit you know, a mail instead of an email point
of view or something like that. And then that was
my first experience recording with them for real, and you know,

(06:39):
if that was it, I was happy with that, you know,
that was that was incredible. Then, you know, I guess
it was another I don't know, another year or so
or less. They were going to do a new record,
and they I think they really liked the process of

(07:00):
just coming in and getting the rhythm track and then
finishing it out, you know, finishing out the song right
away using the same rhythm section we would do. We
would come in and they asked me to record a
little bit more for this record. We'd come in and
do like two or three tracks at a time, and

(07:21):
they would you know, just basically trying to get a
nice rhythm track they could build from for this record
that would end up being everything must go that. I
can't remember what year it came out, maybe two thousand
and two or three. So it was one of those
things where I didn't know if I would get called back,

(07:42):
didn't know, you know, what to expect. But they kept
calling the same guys back, and it was turning into
a whole thing, a whole process where we would do
two or three songs at a time, go away, they'd
finish them out and then start again with another batch
of songs like that, and so that was that was great.

(08:03):
It was really just incredible, you know, just to be
a part of that in the studio. You know, they're
kind of known for bringing in rhythm section after rhythm
section and changing things up. This was, you know, the
first time in their history where they just kind of
stuck with one group of guys, you know, for the

(08:25):
core of the tracks. So that was pretty exciting to
be to be there as a part of that. And
then that we finished it out and you know, after
a course of many months, I remember nine to eleven
happening somewhere in the middle of that, and there was
a pause for a while, But I got a call

(08:48):
from Walter Becker before that they were going to go
out on the road in two thousand and three, and
he asked me if I wanted to to go tour
with them, and of course, you know, I was yes,
And so that's kind of how you know, that's kind
of how all it came about. It was just like
one step at a time and it just kind of

(09:10):
snowballed into this thing where we it just became you know,
kind of I guess comfortable working together, and we had
a lot of time to kind of get to know
one another and work together and feel things out. And
so they you know, asked me that was a two
thousand and three tour, and I've I've been on every

(09:32):
tour ever since since two thousand and three.

Speaker 1 (09:35):
Let's go back to the making of the album. You know,
it's pretty much a mystery of what really went on
in the studio. You know, Walter ultimately produced Donald fagan
solo album. Who was in control and what was the process?

Speaker 2 (09:48):
Like I would say they were both equally in control.
They would usually send me some kind of a demo
ahead of time, and if not, they'd play it in
the control room. Before we would go out and try
to track something. But it's most of the time I'd

(10:09):
get something ahead of time just to listen to. It
might have been something Donald just programmed in garage band
or something like that, you know, just just to have
the idea down. And there was always a chart, you know.
I went to music school, so I could read, so
that's good, and so I would just kind of prepare

(10:33):
mentally about what I might want to do and just
have some ideas. But we would go in and just
start tracking. I mean, and I think it wasn't a
lot of direction at first. It was just let's just
play and we would we would turn on the there
was alway it's always a click. We'd play along to

(10:54):
the click and get get a nice groove happening before
rolling tape, which I always thought, that's really cool, you know,
I had never done that before where you're you know,
usually it's just click in and go. We would just
kind of play for a while, kind of lock in
as a band, you know, until Donald was ready, and
then he lipped his hand and give the engineer the

(11:17):
go ahead to turn to start rolling tape. And then
we'd stopped for like one second and I'd counted off
and you know, your body's kind of into the groove
and everyone's kind of feeling it so that we can
just lock in from the start, which was pretty, uh
fascinating idea. But they were both you know, Donald was

(11:41):
playing roads well, Walter was playing bass. It felt like
we were just kind of a rhythm section, you know,
working through the tunes. And it was it was a
lot of fun. It just felt like musicians playing together.
It didn't feel like maybe what you hear, you know,
the stories back in the day where they're you know,

(12:02):
in there like heckling the musicians or something, you know,
and uh, it was. It was cool. It was maybe
they were just trying some you know, new ways of
recording and uh and it it was. It was great.
It was just great to be there, you know, part
of that whole thing.

Speaker 1 (12:19):
Okay, So tell me about if let's assume you got
a demo, how would you literally prepare before you went in.

Speaker 2 (12:29):
Just listening through? You know, I, if I don't have
a chart, I would try to just write down some
notes and things to remember, maybe some ideas in my
you know what, just what just pops up right away,
whatever my intuition might be that would sound good for
the track. And I really, as I got deeper into it,

(12:51):
I realized that, you know, if I just stayed pretty
much with what the demo was doing, that they were
they were with that, like they just wanted a consistent,
just bed of groove that they could they could build on. So,
you know, I don't always know, and I didn't know

(13:13):
what the vocal line might be or what they're going
to add to it later, you know, whether it's horns
or or other parts that might come in later. So
in a way, not knowing that you kind of you
don't want to get in the way of things while
you're recording. So I think what I what I realized

(13:33):
what that worked was just playing a nice you know,
just solid maybe start with what the demo was playing
drum wise, and just kind of pick out what that
groove is or what that pattern might be, and just
start there and then let it evolve if need be,
or whatever ideas that may they may have or I

(13:54):
may have. But for the most part it seemed to
work to just just kind of stay there and.

Speaker 1 (13:59):
To what agree with the ultimately give you direction.

Speaker 2 (14:06):
You know, just it was more always about feel. It
was always like it wasn't necessary a lot of particular
you know, it wasn't technical. It was just trying to
get the thing to feel right the way that they
wanted it to feel. It's always about the groove and
just a consistent groove that's happening that they really wanted.

(14:29):
And so that was my ultimate goal. I didn't want
to try to be too clever with it, you know,
just try to make it feel good, keep it simple
for the most part, and just have a bed of
something for them.

Speaker 1 (14:42):
Okay, do you have a special recording kit and what
do you bring to the studio?

Speaker 2 (14:49):
Oh? Man, it depends on what the session is or
what I think might be needed. I mean I generally
have just basic, you know, five piece kit, kick drum,
snare drum, maybe three toms, maybe four toms, you know,
and and that's that's generally what what I'm used to playing.

(15:13):
Nothing too too crazy, it's pretty standard. I may change
the snare drum depending on the track what might sound good,
you know, sometimes be feer snares kind of adds a
weight to the track to make it feel a little
weightier and pulled back, whereas a higher pitch snare can
kind of push things forward or just sound a little

(15:34):
bit more, you know, right in the middle of the
bead kind of things like that. But you know, other
than that, I might change the tunings, what things. You
know that Steely Dan likes things to be pretty dry,
so I would have everything muffled up pretty well. Some
people like it more open, meaning things ring out, you know,

(15:56):
the drums just ring and do their thing more and
kind of resonate. So depending on the music, depending on
what they want, or if they just want me to
do my thing, that's I kind of it just varies,
you know, I just have to figure out what's going
to work on that day.

Speaker 1 (16:13):
So people always hear about tuning drums. What exactly is
tuning drums?

Speaker 2 (16:21):
Ugh, it's really just I'm not scientific about it. To me,
it's like it's really for me, it's just finding something
that feels good, that has a good bounce, you know,
a good feel when I play it. But basically it's
just the tension of the head. So you just want
to get a nice tone between the top and the
bottom head that works well together. And every drum kind

(16:45):
of has a sweet spot range of the tone that
sounds good naturally, So you just kind of find that
whatever that drum wants to do. But yeah, I don't
think about it too much. I'm not one of those
people that tunes them to notes or anything specific. I
just know where I like it, and it's mostly about
the feel of it. I don't like it to be

(17:08):
fuddy and just feel like a pillow. I also don't
like it to feel like a table. I kind of
find the middle spot, you know, where it kind of
has a bounce, more like a rubber feel when you
play at your stick comes back, you know. That's what
I like. Yeah, it's just everyone has their way of
doing things. It's very a personal thing and I just

(17:30):
I just kind of wing it. After being in New
York for twenty something years, I played so many drum
sets that were trashed in clubs and where you just
go in or rehearsal halls or whatever and you just
have to deal, you know. I used to be really
particular when I was younger, had to be exactly right,
you know, or I'm not going to be comfortable. But
I got to the point where, oh man, it doesn't

(17:52):
even matter. Whatever's easy and I'll make this work. And
you know, they don't take care of anything in those clubs.
So it's like you don't know what are going to get.
So I've learned to just make it work, you know.
I'll figure out a way to make them sound the
best I can. And a lot of it's, you know,
it's really in the player. It's not really just like
with any instrument, it's it's the player that makes it

(18:14):
makes it sound, you know.

Speaker 1 (18:16):
And are you an equipment geek? Do you have tons
of drums? Very relatively simple? What are you own?

Speaker 2 (18:25):
Well, this this room right here, I would show you
if I could, but I don't want to mess up
with the camera. But I have I have a lot
of snare drums because snare drums kind of are important
when you're recording as far as getting different different sounds
and different vibes for the track. But I have I
have some old kits that I've collected. But I'm not

(18:50):
a crazy vintage guy. But I do have a few things,
some old Gretch kids that I've collected. I play Gretch
most of the time now, and uh, you know, I'd
say I have like three kits at home that I
interchange when I record from home, and then I don't know,
I probably thirty snare drums or more. And I keep

(19:13):
a kit in New York. And you know, other than that,
there's there's cartage places. If I'm traveling, I can use
their stuff or whatever, you know. But yeah, I have well,
I have my my touring kit as well, that's in
New York that just stays there with with Steelee van Skier.

(19:35):
So yeah, i'd see there's like five or six kits
all together. So I'm not crazy, oh man, I just
am a fan of the sound of them. I'm a
fan of the history. You know, a lot of my
favorite drummers played Dretch, so you know, like Mix Mitchell, like, uh,

(20:01):
lots of lots of the greats. You know. I went
through a jazz phase in school, so I was really
into Elvin Jones and Tony Williams and and uh, you
know a lot of the jazz guys played Gretch. It's
an American company that kind of there there they uh
the Gretch building in Brooklyn. I used to see all

(20:22):
the time crossing the Williamsburg Bridge. The building is still
there and it says Gretch on it and and that's
kind of where they started when they came over from Germany.
The family, and it's just a really cool story, you know.
They they it's just a classy uh vibe that they

(20:42):
have that I that I like. And it's they had
these really thin shells that had this resonance that they're
known for, and now they make lots of different stuff.
What they're making now it's just as good as back
in the day, and so that's another plus. But yeah,
it's just taste. And I've just been a Gretch fan.

(21:05):
Every time I record, I usually use Gretch, even with
Seely Dan.

Speaker 1 (21:10):
So what is the difference between the different brands in
terms of sound and feel?

Speaker 2 (21:15):
Well, these days, you know, everyone makes really high quality stuff.

Speaker 1 (21:21):
It's just.

Speaker 2 (21:23):
What you get used to. There's like an organic openness
about Gretch. For me, that's they're not trying too hard
to be high tech, Like they found something that worked
and just stuck with it. From back in the I
would say, you know, sixties and seventies eras, and that's

(21:44):
like all my favorite music is from that era, sixties
and seventies and some of the eighties, and it just
a lot of those recordings in those days were Gretch
and you just kind of, you know, I think that
that they you know, they just found something that worked,
you know, and it just it just kind of it

(22:06):
just stayed the same, and it just has that vibe.
It has that like I don't know, it's like a
warm tone that I really, I really dig, you know.

Speaker 1 (22:17):
And what about symbols and heads.

Speaker 2 (22:23):
You know, there's a lot of choices out there, but
I've always been a Silgian guy who loves it. You know.
That's just what I've always played, you know. You you
you kind of want to do what your heroes do
when you're young. You grow up and you you you
do notice those things, especially if you're as into it
as I was growing up and just wanted so hungry
for all the information, and you just kind of at

(22:46):
first you copy everything and then you figure out what
you're going to do with it all. And part of
it is the gear, you know. So Xilgion is kind
of a set of standard, just like gretched it for me.
And then there's in the in the head realm, there's
there's there's only a few companies that are out there
that that are just kind of set the standard as well,

(23:08):
with Remo or Evans is really great and I use
Evans now, and it's just whatever is easy to you know,
use her friendly and and they're not trying too hard
to be you know, because it's just drums, you know,
like it doesn't have to be rocket scientists making this stuff.

(23:29):
It's just once you find something that works, that's just
how I am. I just I stick with it what
I know.

Speaker 1 (23:36):
And what is the life span of the head?

Speaker 2 (23:40):
Uh, It depends on if I'm bashing my brains out
or if I'm just playing uh, you know more normal.
Depends on the situation, but it can on the road,
it can last you know, it's air drum is going
to go quicker because you're playing it more so those

(24:00):
can last a show or maybe two if I'm lucky,
if it's a high energy, hard hitting thing if it's
if it's not, they can last months. You know. It
just depends on what's happening. But yeah, it varies, i'd say.

Speaker 1 (24:20):
And what about the sticks?

Speaker 2 (24:24):
The sticks they last a long time for me, I
don't really I'm not a I don't break sticks a
lot and I never have. And a lot of it
I think has to do with my technique. You know,
I'm not like I'm not hitting as hard as it
may look. I just use a lot of motion, a

(24:46):
lot of lift and motion, but I'm not The physics
of it is more about the force behind it. But
I'm not like bashing into into the drum, you know,
I'm letting it rebound and it's I'm getting a big
sound because the momentum behind it. So it's just something
I've worked on many for many years and tried to

(25:06):
figure out a way to get a big sound without
getting tired and hitting too hard. And what about the
width of the stick? The width of the stick, I
don't know. I have a size that I use, actually
have a stick, a signature stick with Vic Firth that
I use, and it's it's probably somewhere in the middle.

(25:33):
It's not a tiny jazzy thing it's or a huge
rock thing. It's kind of in the middle. I don't
really know the diameter or the I don't really know
the details. But it feels good, it works, and the
beat of it, it's not too thick. It sounds good
on the symbols, and you know, I found something I like.

Speaker 1 (26:00):
Okay, let's go back to Steely Dan. Granted you've been
working with him for twenty odd years, but the band
decides to go on the road. How much rehearsal is there.

Speaker 2 (26:12):
The first few tours we would rehearse probably two weeks
with just the rhythm section, and then another few I
don't know, I'm trying to think it could have been
more than that, which is the rhythm section including Donald Walter,
and then then I guess the horns and singers meaning

(26:34):
the background singers would come in like another two weeks
after that, and we would do you know, I would
say five to six weeks of rehearsing if I remember correctly.
And then over the years as this band, it's been
a lot of the same personnel for a long time.
Now as we kind of started working more and more

(26:56):
in the later years, you know, it wouldn't rehearse as much.
It would come together a lot quicker. So now we
will just do maybe maybe five days with them section
and three days with everyone else and then and then
go out. But there was a time where where they

(27:18):
when I first started working with them, they would do
a one long tour and then take a couple of
years off. So it I was lucky to find some
things in there that worked out for me, some incredible situations,
you know, I was able to work with with staying
for a couple of years, and then there's a couple

(27:40):
of tours with James Taylor in there in between Steely
Van working. There was what else. I did a tour
with John Mayer. I did a tour with h Toto
a little bit. Most recently Christopher Cross. A lot of

(28:00):
a lot of great a lot of a lot of
this music that, like I said, is kind of coming
from that A lot of it's coming from that same era,
you know, which is the stuff that I love when
they used to make those records that were so crafted,
you know, with all the session musicians, and I love
all that stuff. But yeah, it's it's pretty. It's kind

(28:25):
of turned into a machine after all the years. So
we we don't we don't have to rehearse as much.
It usually depends on how much time has been between
the last time we played. You know, I guess Donald
will decide how much how much time we need to
feel comfortable.

Speaker 1 (28:41):
And what about repertoire? Is Donald, you know you're gonna
rehearse everything you're gonna play. Is he gonna pull some
deep thing out? You're gonna play the same thing all
the time.

Speaker 2 (28:53):
You know, it's kind of it's it's changed over the years,
you know, because there's there's a set there's a standard
set list. I would say that has a lot of
the same tunes, and then he'll switch out little sections
within that. But we would always do album nights at

(29:15):
the at the Beacon just where it started, and we
would do a couple of weeks at the Beacon. We
would do different album nights each night, so we would
do pretty much the whole repertoire at some point because
we would we would play the Royal Scam in its entirety,
we would do Asia and its entirety. We did Countdown
to Ecstasy, we did Katie Live, We did you know,

(29:37):
the entire records, and then the greatest hits after that.
So it was it was really cool because you know,
for us in the band, we got to play stuff
that we don't normally play, some of the deeper cuts
and uh and for the diehard fans that was that
was incredible. You know. We would do Donald's Nightfly record,

(29:59):
or sometime during the seely Dan Knights, we would do
some of donald solo stuff. He would work those in
so it's always changing and then he would rearrange some
stuff that he was. You know, he gets tired of
playing them the exact same way. You know, some of
the older tracks he'll he'll rearrange every now and then.

(30:20):
So I think it's just because he gets bored and
ables to change it up.

Speaker 1 (30:24):
Well, how about you. You're going on the road for
twenty years, certainly not every night, and you're playing the
same songs. Are you still as excited? Do you get
bored you start thinking about your laundry?

Speaker 2 (30:40):
Well, no, I I don't. I don't really get bored.
I mean this it's you know, I obviously I have
nights where I'm more on than others, but I'm such
a fan of the music, and I just I always
have a good time, some nice other than others, you know.

(31:02):
But I'm definitely not thinking about laundry, you know, I could.
I know what I'm getting burnt out after a long tour,
but I'm I still try to, like, you know, get
up there and nail it as best I can.

Speaker 1 (31:16):
And what's the difference with Walter No longer? With us,
it's a.

Speaker 2 (31:22):
Huge dynamic that's missing. I mean, it's yeah, it's uh.
I guess all I can say is it's it's doable
because Donald is the singer. It's doable that we can
keep going or you know that Donald wants to keep
keep the band going. It's, uh, it works, but obviously

(31:46):
it's not the same. Uh. They had such a an incredible,
you know relationship. It was it was always fun just
to see how they would bounce ideas off each other,
and it was, you know, half the time it was
it was over our heads, you know, just follow their

(32:07):
their sense of humor and their references and you know,
just having that background together, growing up together. It was.
It was cool to see that. And I'm sure it
must be weird for Donald to just be up there
without his partner of all those years. You know, I
can't imagine that. But it's it's you know, it's cool,

(32:30):
and it's the music is what matters, and the fact
that Donald is wanting to keep it going. It's it's
a beautiful thing for everyone.

Speaker 1 (32:41):
Okay, So you said you went to school in Texas.
Where'd you grow up?

Speaker 2 (32:46):
I grew up in Mississippi. I was born in Greenville, Mississippi,
which is in the Mississippi Delta.

Speaker 1 (32:55):
You know, most people are not that Mississippi savvy, you know,
northern Mississippi is like Tennessee. Southern Mississippi is a world
up to itself. Where is that where you grew up?
And how far is the biggest town went, I'll give
me a little bit more.

Speaker 2 (33:10):
Okay, well, Greenville the delta is kind of like north Mississippi,
like below Memphis. If you know where Memphis, Tennessee is
just like right below that. So it's in that area
kind of like I don't know, not central Mississippi, but
like maybe just below Memphis. That's kind of where I
was born. And then we moved south to the Jackson area,

(33:33):
which is central centrally located in a town called Clinton, Mississippi,
which is where I grew up from like age five
through high school. And then well, I mean it was
it was a great place to grow up. I mean,
obviously there's a lot of rich musical culture in that area,

(33:58):
and I was not quite aware of it all until
I got older, but just being around people that knew
it could turn me on to things. You know. I
had some great teachers along the way, But I was
certainly influenced by New Orleans, which was not far you know,
the New Orleans music. I really got heavily into that.
Of course, Memphis had the Stacks Recordings just up the road,

(34:22):
so to speak, and then you had Muscle Shoals Alabama
not too far like that. Whole region is just really
rich of American music culture. That's pretty insane, you know,
and I learned more about it later. But it's just
cool to be from that. You know, it doesn't seem

(34:42):
it doesn't see. It seems rare. You know. There's not
a lot of people that say, yeah, I'm from Mississippi,
so it's kind of I don't know, it's definitely a
communication starter, you know, people I didn't know people lived
in Mississippi.

Speaker 1 (34:56):
So is your family have a long history in Mississippi.
What did your father their mother do for a living.

Speaker 2 (35:03):
My yeah, both my parents were from there, well, I
guess the majority of their lives. I think my dad
was originally from Schenecade, New York. My mom was from there.
She was a school teacher. She taught in elementary school
and I know she taught kindergarten at one point. My

(35:25):
dad was he worked at Mississippi Valley Gas Company in Jackson,
and he was a corrosion engineer, which basically he had
accounts he would go to annually or semi annually. I
don't know exactly. I don't remember how it worked, but
he would just basically go and do leak at surveys

(35:48):
and it was a natural natural gas accounts he would
have at various locations, and I guess if he found
a leak, he would get it fixed and you know
that kind of thing. It probably was more involved in that,
but that's that's really all I could. That's all I
knew at the time about it. But yeah, definitely not
musicians I was. I was just one of the weird

(36:12):
people that kind of figured out what they want to
do at an early age. It wasn't because of my family.
I had two I had two older sisters. They weren't
musicians really, but they I think played some piano, but they,
you know, they weren't serious about it. But there was
always music in the house and that's kind of how
it all started, just being around music all the time.

Speaker 1 (36:35):
What kind of music.

Speaker 2 (36:37):
I can remember, just various stuff. I remember. Obviously we
were listening to a lot of you know, top forty
radio growing up in classic rock and stuff like that.
But I remember there were some Paul McCartney and Wings.
I remember the Beg's there some Beatles, there was you know,

(37:04):
like popular music of the day. There was there was
trying to think various stuff, you know, and I think
listening to just really it was just a sponge, you know.
I was like listening to whatever, whatever I whatever was around,
and I was just drawn to the rhythm and and

(37:26):
you know, drums and music. I just somehow knew that's
what I wanted to do.

Speaker 1 (37:31):
Well, a little bit slower, How did you start playing
the drums and the drums your first instrument?

Speaker 2 (37:37):
Yeah, it was my first instrument. I I was I
was just trying to think, you know. I would watch
the Johnny Carson Show and see Buddy Rich on there
or other. Ed Shaughnessy was the drummer in the band.
It was like always, you know, musical guests that I'd
be into and and and then later I got into

(37:58):
Late Night with David Letterman, which kind of started my
whole infatuation with New York City, and I knew I
wanted to go there. You know. At some point I
fell in love with New York. So, you know, I
guess my parents realized that I was into this thing,

(38:21):
and they got me the toy kits that a lot
of parents start out with to see how it goes,
you know, I don't want to get too too locked in.
And those those paper heads they last about two days,
you know, and uh, and then I just kept wanting more.

(38:44):
And eventually I think someone recommended to my parents get
them a snare drum, you know, start there, and and
then I started just getting more and more into it,
and I wanted a drum set. I got my first
drum set. I talked to my dad into it. I
think I was around nine ten, and that's when it

(39:04):
really got serious because I was just listening to all
kinds of different music in the house and just trying
to figure out what they were doing and just picking
out the parts, you know, by year. And the great
thing was is that I didn't just play drums by

(39:26):
myself for very long. There was there was some other
musicians in the neighborhood that I met that were older
than me that and they needed a drummer. It was
just perfect timing and we ended up putting this literally
a garage band together and we just played classic rock
and stuff that they were into. And this guy's name

(39:49):
was David Duncan. I remember going into his house. We'd
set up in his garage for a long time for
several years, and just practiced there, like almost every day,
just playing, just just learning music. I think we finally
got some gigs, but it was just more about just
just the the escape of just going in that garage

(40:11):
and playing together and inviting people over as we were jamming.
And and then eventually my parents realized that this wasn't
going to go away. They were they were like, okay,
what are we going to do? So they they they
built a soundproof room in our garage, so that became

(40:32):
a place where we would rehearse and I would play.
I couldn't wait to get home from school to play,
and always practicing, always playing, putting in the work, you know,
just and then as soon as I could, I got
into the school programs and found some great teachers and
in the area. I wanted to do it all, you know.

(40:55):
I wanted to be in the marching band. I wanted
to play. I was already the drummer. I was like,
you know it, I think any musician can probably relate
like is a lot of us are kind of We're sensitive,
and we're introverted most of the time, and like this
is our kind of our self esteem and our identity

(41:17):
is these whatever we decide to play, you know, it
becomes like that's how I was anyway. I was just like, man,
this is this is everything, and I became that the
drummer guy. You know, so everybody. But it was it
was a great time. It was a good, good place
to grow up. And I was around people that were

(41:39):
older than me that that was teaching me about playing
in a rhythm section and you know, what is the
kick drum and the bass drum need to do? How
does that work together? And you know all those things
that that I learned at an early age, you know,
just playing with people, playing with other humans, then just
sitting in a practice room by myself. It seems like

(42:01):
that's what a lot of young drummers are doing these days.
They just they can play a lot of great stuff
and they're putting out their Instagram videos, but it's you know,
I don't know if they've really played in a band before.
You know, you can kind of tell that they have
or not, you know, but I was lucky. I was

(42:22):
lucky to have that opportunity right away to play with
people and just kind of start there.

Speaker 1 (42:28):
Okay, a little bit more in playing in bands in
high school. I mean, was this you know we hear
from some people. Oh yeah, I played in clubs or
I played every school dance. What was your situation?

Speaker 2 (42:42):
We ended up well as far as school goes. I
got into the marching band, I did symphonic band, I
played other percussion instruments, and I had to, like, I
remember when it first started. I guess it was seventh grade,
you know, the band program. I had to let the

(43:03):
band director know I was already a drummer, you know,
like I'm not going to sit here and audition on,
not going to work on my amishor on a tuba,
you know, and let you pick what I'm going to play.
I'm like, I want to play the drums, you know.
And it worked, it worked out. But but yeah, I
got to any any school band program that they had,

(43:26):
whether it was we had a show choir, we didn't
have a jazz band. We had a show choir. I
was the drummer, and that it was like a song
and dance group, you know, doing like a variety show
kind of thing, and you know, even trying to think
what else was happening in the high school days. But

(43:49):
but I was playing, you know, in these bands when
I get home from school. I think we finally I
got a gig or two at clubs and my parents
would have to take me and stay with me to
get me in and that kind of thing, because I was,
I don't know, probably eleven twelve at this point, playing

(44:10):
in cars and yeah, so you know that my parents
were supportive. So that was cool that that was I
think because it was so foreign to them, this whole
musician thing, because it's just wasn't anything that they were.
They just didn't know anything about it. So I think

(44:31):
they just kind of saw it as exciting because it
was so different from you know, what they had done
up until that point, and I was taking this risk,
and I think they enjoyed that because it could have
gone the other way. You know, it could have been like,
you know, what are you doing? But luckily I had

(44:52):
they were open enough to deal with it. But yeah,
and then when I got into college, I went to
North Texas and and it's in the Dallas area in Denton, Texas.
I was, you know, previously playing a lot of rock
and R and B and soul music, groove music. I

(45:13):
was really into a lot of that I wanted to
learn more. I was getting more into progressive stuff and
fusion jazz rock, kind of all that kind of thing
that was more sophisticated, and I wanted to get more
into the jazz thing because I didn't know a lot
about it. I was just starting to kind of dab
into it from teachers turning me on to stuff, and

(45:34):
so U and T University of North Texas is known
as a really good jazz program and jazz school. So
that's really why I just decided to go there because
I wanted to just challenge myself something new and different.
And I had decided that, you know, I want to

(45:55):
do this New York thing, and and the jazz influence
was going to probably help that out, you know, just
just to kind of incorporate that into my playing where
I could just kind of draw from that whenever I
need to. And but yeah, I was doing, you know,
taking lessons in that genre of music and then playing

(46:18):
with various musicians in the Dallas area. I was, I
was playing. It got to a point where I was
playing seven nights a week and then also going to school,
trying to go to school, you know, but I was
playing a lot. It was was almost like a training ground,

(46:38):
you know, before I moved to New York. But there
was a lot of great players in Dallas. I think
the school brings in a lot of talent and they
stick around and there's just a lot of great players there.
At the time. This would have been you know, late eighties,
early nineties, I guess. And I I was playing in

(47:01):
this band called Dallas Brass and Electric and we played
like a lot of the you know, a lot of
it was a cover band. We did what most of
those bands would do, but we also because of the
horn section, we'd play like Tower Power and Berthman and
Fire Chicago and you know, just great horn music, R

(47:24):
and B stuff, and it was it was really great.
It's really it was a great band and we played
all the time for years. I was in that band,
and it just it did a lot for me growing
as a musician. It was. It was really a great time.
So yeah, I mean, it was just it was a

(47:48):
great time to be in in Texas and that at
that time at UNC, there was just a lot going on.
You know, I don't know how it is now, but
at that time it was great.

Speaker 1 (48:04):
Okay, So that's outside the classroom certainly many musicians never
go to college, never mind music college. So in retrospect,
what did you learn and was it to your benefit
in the classroom, I.

Speaker 2 (48:19):
Think I gained more from just you know, getting out
and playing. But what was cool was being around peers
that turned me on to stuff, you know, turn me
onto music I didn't know about, or just just you know,
check this out, you know kind of stuff. Just and
and getting together with other players and playing and just

(48:42):
growing that way, changing ideas. And had some great teachers
for sure. Ed sof was was the drum set teacher there,
and he was it was pretty life changing what we
got into. So that was that was great. That part
of it was great, But I think just being around

(49:02):
it and having that opportunity to grow, you know, before
I made the big move, I think it was just
a it was it was you know, some people aren't
into the music school idea, but it works out well
for me. I think I was I kind of needed that.
I needed more time to figure stuff out, you know,

(49:22):
before I went to the big city to see what
could happen.

Speaker 1 (49:26):
You know, so you graduate from college and take me
from there.

Speaker 2 (49:31):
I didn't graduate, I remember, I remember Ed so of
actually telling my mom, my teacher there, that yeah, Keith,
Keith could just should just go. Just let him go,
let him see what happens. You know. I always thought
that was kind of cool that he went there, because
you would think he'd be like, oh, he's got to

(49:52):
finish his degree, but he was. He was cool enough
to tell my mom that. And my mom was like,
oh my gosh. She was very, very very and you know,
great great lady, but just just really conservative and it's
like you got to finish that degree kind of thing,
you know. But anyway, so he convinced her that it

(50:14):
was okay.

Speaker 1 (50:15):
How far are you from a degree? How long were
you there?

Speaker 2 (50:18):
You know, I was there for four years. I was
there from I guess eighty nine to ninety two, and
then I was still playing a lot in Dallas Fort
Worth area. So I was working all the time, just
playing gigs, gig after gig, different types of stuff, a
little bit of session work here and there. There's a

(50:39):
lot of jingles going on in that in that area
at that time. And I stayed in Dallas for another
I would say maybe three to four years, just gigging. Yeah,
just gigging and just kind of getting my Like it
was I needed to get away from school to kind

(51:02):
of process everything and just kind of have time to
to figure out what just happened. You know, so much
information that it was good to just stop the classroom
stuff and just get out and play and focus on that.
And I was practicing all the time, you know, it
was that time of when I put it in all
the hours. You know, just just I knew at some

(51:26):
point I was going to get out and see what
else I could find, you know, because because I pretty
much you know, you can make a decent living, I guess,
but I had I just I just wanted to see
what else was out there. You know.

Speaker 1 (51:41):
So how did you end up going to New York?

Speaker 2 (51:43):
How did I end up going?

Speaker 1 (51:45):
Well, I mean it's the dream. You go to college
for four years, you spend more years in Dallas. People
always talking about going to the big city, and most
don't even make the effort.

Speaker 2 (51:54):
Yeah, I you know, it was just time and I
and I I had some friends that went to school
with me that had previously moved there, so it felt like,
you know, I'm gonna know a few people already. And
then I just I just saved some dough It wasn't
a lot, but it was. I had a little bit

(52:15):
of a cushion there. And a guy that I went
to school with, his name was Josh Was. He let
me move in with him. He needed a roommate in
the East Village, and I just I drove up from Dallas,
brought a few things, and a couple of friends helped
me unload, and there I was, you know, like I was.

(52:38):
I knew I was going to live in Manhattan. I
wasn't going to live in the other boroughs or Jersey
or anything. I was going to be in the middle
of it. I wanted to just walk out my door
be in that city, just be there, you know, and
I could walk down the street to hear any almost
any night of the week. I could go here like
some of my heroes play at a club, you know,

(53:00):
So that that was incredible. But I knew I wanted
to be in the city, and I was just gonna
go and see what could happen. Luckily, my roommate at
the time that all worked out. I was on Fifth
Street between Second and Third Avenue, and uh I I

(53:24):
ended up. I guess it was maybe six months into
it or so being there that I got into a
few things where I was playing. I was playing at
the Bitter End on like every Sunday night they had
a jam and I was asked to be like the

(53:48):
the house drummer for the jam and that was, Oh,
that was really fun because a lot of people came
in and you know, it was some there was some
really good players. There were something that weren't, but it
was it was a great place to hang and just
meet meet people. It was just just rotating, uh, you know,
people just coming in and out and just playing all night.

(54:10):
So it was really cool and a lot of stuff
came out of that, you know, just meeting those people.
And because you know, this is pre social media and
I think it was pre cell phone. I remember having
a pager in those days. You know, the pager would
go off and you hope, you oh, I got a gig.

(54:32):
You have to hurry up and call go to a payphone,
you know. But yeah, I got into some situations really
that was really great. I ended up getting an audition
with Harry Belafonte and I got the gig and I
worked with him for a couple of years on and off,

(54:54):
going on the road. Just some Vega shows did some
theater around the US, and that was great, great band,
great musicians. We did a lot of eclectic music and
different stuff, African music of course, all the hits and stuff.

(55:17):
It was really fun. There was also I had a
contact from North Texas with Lou Marini Blue Lou from
you know, the Blues Brothers band, and you know, of
course he's done a million other things, but he's certainly
known for the Blues Brothers and we got to know

(55:40):
each other in Dallas. Whenever he would come back, he
has family there, he would come back and we ended
up he ended up sitting in with this band that
I was playing, the horn band I was telling you about,
and so we kind of kept in touch a little bit.
I remember the days of back in those days, we

(56:01):
would you know, hand out business cards or it's kind
of it sounds silly now, but in a demo tape,
you know, a cassette tape every now and then I
would hand them out and just hope for the best,
you know, if someone cares enough to listen, and you
know whatever. But he was one of the guys that

(56:22):
actually responded, you know, and he dug what I when
I gave him, and what he heard and I thought
that was really cool. And when I got to New York,
he kind of took me under his wing. He like
introduced me to a lot of people and he and
he got me in with the Blues Brothers. I started

(56:43):
touring with those guys. It was like the original Blues
Brothers band and I was. It was Steve Cropper, Duck
Dunn was there some of the time when he wasn't
There was another bass player named Eric Udell. There was
you know, of course Lou on saxophone, Alan Rubin, mister

(57:07):
fabulous Birch Johnson was on trombone, Leon Pandarvis on keys.
Rusty Cloud would play keys sometimes when Leon wasn't there,
Matt guitar, Murphy like all the guys. Of course, Akroyd
and Belushi weren't there. There was different singers. They had

(57:29):
a guy from New York named Tommy McDonald and Eddie
Floyd knock on wood. Eddie Floyd would sing with the
band and we would go to Japan. We would go
all over Europe the blues festivals and various various things.
People went nuts over that band, as they should. I mean,

(57:50):
it's a party, you know. It was just like get
out there and played feel good music and people love
those songs. I mean, the whole Blues Brothers movie is
such a phenomenon. I mean there's there's kids that still
would show up dressed in the in the suits and
the hat and the glasses. You know. It was so cool. Uh,
it was amazing. And that was my first experience, you know,

(58:15):
traveling the world and playing music, you know, and it
was it was awesome, you know, just to play with
those guys and you know, they they basically came up
with with a lot of what I grew up loving
and just you know, the whole Stacks thing and just

(58:37):
all those songs. Just so much history there, you know,
just to kind of get a piece of that was fun.
Just to be work with those guys. It was I
learned a lot, you know, it was it was great.
So I had the I had that going on. I
had the the the Harry Belafonte thing going on, and

(59:02):
then I had this kind of more jazz oriented stuff,
underground stuff with Wayne Krantz that I was mentioning earlier,
which is how I met Donald Walter. So I was
able to get into some things in New York that
that it just kind of just snowballed and led to
other stuff, you know, and you know, that was it

(59:29):
was a very I just loved New York so much.
I just had like this infatuation with it that I
remember the first time I went there, I was I
was selected to be in the McDonald's All American High
School Band and I got to march in the Macy's
parade on the snare drum and we had like the

(59:50):
TV moment in front of Macy's and did our thing,
and and I was just I mean, I was a
junior in high school and this being in the big city,
marching down street, I was in heaven. I was like, man,
this is where I'm going to live. This is it,
you know, I'm going to do it. And I just knew.
I just knew from that point on, this is where
I was going to go, you know. And so I'm

(01:00:15):
just glad I did it. I'm glad I didn't chicken out,
because it was definitely the most intimidating place to go,
you know, at least to me.

Speaker 1 (01:00:23):
It was Okay, you're a drummer, you find your way.
This is when sessions are still happening, and there are
other working musicians who are not going on the road
on a regular basis, So paint picture of what was
going on then and what your placing it was.

Speaker 2 (01:00:42):
Well, I have to say, you know, I moved to
New York around I guess it was ninety six, and
I kind of missed the heyday of the session thing
when when things were killing. I mean, they were just
you know, these and eighties. From what I hear, it was,

(01:01:02):
it was just like you would go to three or
four sessions a day and just you know, just studio
to studio and cunning records left and right, and I
just I missed all that. And so you know, I've
I've been able to do sessions more now than I

(01:01:22):
did then, almost like it's kind of turned around. But
in those days when I first moved to New York,
I was more or less I was kind of I
was doing more live work, and I was on the
road all the time. And the only time I mean
just wasn't I wasn't really in the city. As much
as I could, I couldn't figure out a way to

(01:01:45):
make it work just being in the city. I had
to go on the road. So yeah, I just think
missing that the era where it was really really happening
was a part of it. But I also just got
I just found my niche where I was just kind
of this live drummer that it just seemed like that's

(01:02:07):
kind of where it went, you know, without I didn't
plan anything out. It just kind of went to that
place where I was just going from tour to tour
and the occasional session would come up. And I've done
some records that I'm really proud of, you know, over
the years. But it's I feel like I'm recording more

(01:02:27):
now than I did then.

Speaker 1 (01:02:30):
Okay, so you're on the road. A do you like
being on the road and b are you happy? Or
you say I have a bigger dream than this.

Speaker 2 (01:02:45):
I love the road. I love it. I love you know.
I'm older now, so I can't say I love, you know,
being tired all the time and things like that. When
I was you younger, it didn't matter. I could just
bounce back. And but I love touring and I love

(01:03:10):
playing live. I mean, that's what I really that's that's
what you're getting paid for, is the show, which is
just two hours out of the day, you know, and
then everything else is I guess I should say it
the other way you're getting paid for all the travel
and and you know, dealing with all that stuff. But

(01:03:32):
I but I love traveling and I love you know,
I got to see the world and do things that
I never thought was possible to experience. That was it's
just been incredible. But I you know, I I yeah,

(01:03:54):
I mean, I I've just been really I like doing both.
I like having the session side of things because it's
it's a lot more structured and you can experiment with
sounds and and you know, if possible, if there's time,
you can really really experiment with approaches and things like that,

(01:04:15):
whereas live it's just about the energy and the moment
with the audience, and there's there's nothing like that. I mean,
that's what I love more than anything.

Speaker 1 (01:04:24):
So if you can go on the road with varying
acts till you can play no more physically, you're happy.

Speaker 2 (01:04:31):
Yeah, I guess. So, Yeah, I'm just kind of taking
it day by day here.

Speaker 1 (01:04:38):
Okay, so you're working with the Jazz Trio, et cetera.
You get the gig in Steely Dan. That's one vertical
to what do weed getting this gig in Steely Dan?
Does that change your profile and create opportunities.

Speaker 2 (01:04:56):
Well day STEELYE. Dan definitely put me on the map,
you know, in a much bigger way. That it's because
you know, it was just the most high profile thing
that I had ever been a part of, and a
lot of people took notice like who is this new guy?
You know, kind of came out of nowhere and it

(01:05:19):
opened up doors and it still does. You know. It's
it's such a It created a lot of opportunity for me,
and there's just a credibility there that it puts you
on a higher rank if you've worked with them, and

(01:05:43):
that's that's been amazing, I mean just to have have
the chance to work with those guys. But because it's
it's so well revered and such a it's kind of
like it's the ultimate, you know, one of them. I
think of those guys, man, I think I think of

(01:06:06):
Becker and Fagan is like that's to me, it's like
Lennon and McCartney, I mean, the they it's the American
version of that. I mean, they really just prolific songwriters
and changed changed music, you know, changed the whole course
of things, you know, and their whole unique story with

(01:06:27):
all the session musicians, all the I mean, so many
great players have played on their records, and just to
be a part of that lineage of players, just to
be thought of in that clubs you know, super cool,
you know.

Speaker 1 (01:06:48):
Okay, So you say you played with Sting, you played
with James Taylor, you played with Toto. How does that happen?
You're sitting at home and they say we want you
or do you come in and they feel you out,
whether it's you're good, are you competing with people? Tell
me a little bit more.

Speaker 2 (01:07:06):
A lot of it is word of mouth. I think
a lot of it's the fact that I worked with
Steely Dan. I think sometimes people would be in the
audience and liked what they heard and maybe spread the
word to someone. I mean, it's various things that just
organically happened and the stars aligned and somehow it happened.

(01:07:31):
You know. I've never had a manager. I don't have
I do everything myself. I don't I don't have any help.
I just and if someone's interested, they either would call
me or I'd get a random email. I've always had
a presence online once that existed, and that's been a
great tool to be there and to be uh, you know,

(01:07:53):
I'm I'm reachable that way. And yeah, I think it's
just all those variousuations and uh, it's just kind of snowballs.

Speaker 1 (01:08:05):
So tell me about getting the gig with Sting and
you play with these acts and then you stop playing
with them. What causes the end.

Speaker 2 (01:08:17):
They don't call you back? I don't know, that's that's
the you know. I think either they move on with
something else or I don't really have I don't always
have those answers, because yeah, I think it's uh, you

(01:08:39):
know you you I guess I've wondered that. I wondered, like, uh,
what what goes on in someone's head to to make changes?
And that that's me that's just kind of their right
to do, right, you know. But sometimes times it's just

(01:09:02):
scheduling conflicts or whatever, or sometimes you just don't you know,
once it's over, it's over.

Speaker 1 (01:09:09):
So how often is that they call you, and whether
it be people you've worked with four other people say
I just can't do it. I'm booked.

Speaker 2 (01:09:16):
It happened a lot at one point. It's it's been
I mean, this whole COVID thing, you know, shut down
things for a while. So I'm just it almost feels
like it's still coming back, you know, but uh, it's

(01:09:37):
I guess that's the hard part about being an independent musician,
you know sidemen where I'm trying to schedule things and
and then I know, well, this is you know, I
got to keep this open, and then it's like trying
to it's it becomes a mess. You know. This is
when I wish I had a manager sometimes you know,

(01:09:59):
to deal with it. But but there's also slow periods
where you just uh waited out for the next thing
to happen. So yeah, it's it's just part of of
it's like an exciting part of the gig. And then
it's also it sucks because you don't know what's going

(01:10:21):
to happen next, But it's also exciting not knowing. Maybe
at least you have to tell yourself that.

Speaker 1 (01:10:27):
You know, so, how long might it be slow? And
how did you cope with COVID both emotionally and monetarily.

Speaker 2 (01:10:40):
Well, it's uh, slow periods are usually expected. Certain parts
of the year are usually slow, you know, like around
holiday time, at the end of the year through maybe
you know the next summer. Sometimes you know, it just

(01:11:02):
it just became kind of expected, but you never never
in my wildest dreams that we did. Anyone expect things
to shut down, the entire live music industry to just
completely shut down for whatever it was. It feels like
three years, you know, two years pretty much. I mean

(01:11:22):
we were the first thing to go and the last
to come back. And you know, it was rough, you know,
it was like very It was depressing because that was
what I did. I'm I'm I have to get out
and play, you know, I have to. I want to
move around and keep busy and and play shows. That's

(01:11:47):
what I do. But I was forced to find other
things to do. I was able to finally get a
home studio really up and running. I'd been wanting to
do that for years and just kept putting it off
because I was always in the road or always had
an excuse. But that's one thing that positive that came

(01:12:10):
out of it. I was able to get that up
and running. I had some engineers to help me, and
I learned more about pro tools where I'm self sufficient.
I can record drums from home and get really good sounds,
and so that that's like something that was I guess
a blessing that came out of it. And I have

(01:12:31):
three young daughters, so that it was great to be
home with them and just to be a part of
their lives a lot more than I would have been.
And so that was great. I love that. And you know, financially,
it was it was it was a challenge. It's a
long time, but it was really it felt like almost

(01:12:54):
three years of not the usual state income. Luckily, I've
always been a saber and I've invested and things like that.
I'm not you know, that's another thing I really got
into it. It's learning more about how how the financial

(01:13:16):
world works and learning about all that stuff you know
that doesn't really get taught. You kind of own your
own with with all that. But that's been kind of
fun to learn about. And but yeah, it was rough
and I and I applied for some of those PPP
loans and I got through it, and I had to

(01:13:38):
dip into some IRA money and that was a drag,
but I got us through it, you know, And had
I not had that, we'd be screwed. Probably would have
had to sell my house or something.

Speaker 1 (01:13:52):
Okay, And now you're talking about your endorsement deal yet
with Vic Firth. To what degree do you have endorsement deals?
How do those work and when did those arrive?

Speaker 2 (01:14:06):
Well, the endorsement stuff I have or with Gretch drums
who I've been with since I guess twenty twelve or
so Zilgin since the early days nineties, and Vic Firth sticks.
I have a signature model, so I get a little

(01:14:28):
bit of a royalty with the sales of that one.
I also have a signature snare drum with Gretch that
I get a royalty from, which is cool. But what
else am I missing? Oh Evan's drumheads. And then I
also have a deal with Earthworks Mics. That's what I

(01:14:49):
use on the road and also at home in the studio.
You can see the drums behind me. This is where
I track. Actually, so it happened. You know, basically, once
you get a high profile gig or you're someone these days,

(01:15:12):
it's different, but at least you know, I'm old school,
so back back when you you just kind of had
to get a gig and have visibility, they would be
interested in signing you on. And I got to know
some of the guys. Being in New York, I was
able to have access to to that world a little
better when they would come to town for various things and

(01:15:35):
got to know some of the guys that the drum
companies and and so you know, it's good to have
a relationship with those guys. And it's not just about
getting free stuff, you know, it's it's really having a
relationship and and you know you're in it together. You know,

(01:15:55):
you're out there pushing their brand, and then they're also
helping you with the gear. So it's and it really
comes in handy when you're on the road and you're
not on a tour like I've been on various tours,
but different budget levels. You know, sometimes there's not a

(01:16:15):
budget to bring all your stuff, so you're you're going
to get backline at every gig. So it's good to
have endorsements, especially in those situations, because they can help
you get what you need to each venue and make
sure it's what you want and that kind of thing,
which can be great, but it's just an agreement, you Like,
I got to know the guys and they would ask

(01:16:38):
me if I was interested, or I would tell them
I was interested, and you know, just work it out,
work out a situation.

Speaker 1 (01:16:49):
Okay. Another thing you're into is education. Tell me about that.

Speaker 2 (01:16:54):
I've done a little bit of private teaching here and there,
but I don't do a lot of it. I I
don't love I don't love it. I don't love teaching.
But what I did find that I did enjoy was
just doing like the occasional like they call it clinics
or masterclass or something like that, where it's a group

(01:17:15):
of people, have an audience and it's just a one
time show where I just basically I'll do some playing
and I'll talk about some things and then open it
up for questions, and so it just kind of goes
wherever the audience takes it, you know. So it's really
a good way to kind of reach the level of

(01:17:37):
the people in the room where they're at, and they
can kind of just interactive, you know, you can kind
of feel it out and see what they might get
at it, what they interest are, and hope that they
can get something out of what I have there to
give and say. But I used to do a lot

(01:17:58):
of those. A lot of these companies that I'm involved
with would sponsor tours, you know, I would do like
a two week clinic tour, or if I was had
a day off somewhere, we could maybe schedule something at
a music store or university or school or whatever. It

(01:18:19):
might be drum shop or something. So I've done a
lot of those over the years, and I really enjoy it.
It just doesn't seem to be a budget for it
like there used to be. I think the companies have
cut back on that funding that stuff. It's not that
not the same. But I have enjoyed doing that, and

(01:18:43):
I've done some drum camps where you spend like a
week with the students at various locations. I did one
in Greece a while back. I've done some in the UK,
and there's there's a lot of communities, different places that
do these things every year, and so they'll call different
people every year to be a part of that. But

(01:19:05):
that's that's probably as far as it goes I've done.
I did a DVD, an instruction of DVD that came
out like two thousand and eight, I think. But that's
that's the gist of it.

Speaker 1 (01:19:21):
Okay. So let's say they call you to work and
you're booked. Who do you tell them to call and
who are your drum favorites heroes living and dead?

Speaker 2 (01:19:33):
You know, if I I'll just say I'm not available,
I guess, and if they if they or if I
if I think of someone that I think would be
good for it, I'll certainly recommend someone. Of course, it
just depends on what it is and who I think

(01:19:54):
might be good for it. But as far as influences
and I I I always mess with this question because
there's so many I'll forget, but you know, going back
to like Keith Moon and John Bonham, uh, Mitch Mitchell,

(01:20:21):
Charlie Watts, like Steve Jordan, the New Orleans side of things.
I love the Meters. That was a big influence to
Goboo model LISTE was the drummer Great Dunner, Uh, David Garibaldi,

(01:20:44):
Tower Power, Uh. In the jazz world, like, oh, there's
so many I went through. Uh well in the jazz
world like Tony Williams and Alvin Jones and Jack d Jeanette,
Bill Stewarts and and I like a lot. Uh She's

(01:21:07):
Neil Peart was one that I grew up being a
huge rush band. So that was a big influence. Stuart
Copeland with the Police, all the all the session guys
like Steve Gadd, Bernard Purdy, Rick Morata, Ed Green like

(01:21:29):
all these these are some of the ones that are
on all these Steely Dan records, you know, because being
being a part of that is, like I've always said,
it's like the greatest drum school, Like because there's so
many great players on all those tracks from all those
records that getting to play them you're you're kind of

(01:21:51):
channeling them in a way night after night, but but
also making it your own. At the same time, you're
kind of like paying homage to that what they were
doing that day in the studio because it's so much
a part of the track, all those details that are
involved and the feel of it and how it all
works together in the rhythm section, everybody's part. You know,

(01:22:14):
there's a focus there. But then it kind of turns
over the years, it's turned into me kind of doing
my version of it. It just morphs into that over time.
But in the beginning, I was studying another records. Man,
just you know, all those Steely Dan records, and there's
so many great great tracks. There's Dave Weckel, There's there's

(01:22:36):
Dennis Chambers and Vinnie Kelly Uda, all these guys. Those
were like when I was in high school, those were
like everyone was listening to those those three guys. There's
so many man, I could, I'm gonna.

Speaker 1 (01:22:50):
Okay, well believe it at that, So we don't. Less
we talk about it, the more everybody's left out will
feel more comfortable. So we're not working with Steel Dan.
If you go on your website, you're doing other gigs.
What are you doing when you're not working with Steely Dan.
We're going to go out with the Eagles momentarily and
anything else booked down the pike.

Speaker 2 (01:23:13):
I do a lot of sessions from home. That's what
I've been doing a lot of and that's been great
and really nice because it's kind of on my own,
something on time, really and it's kind of nice to
have a little business from home and get to play
a lot of different types of music. And I just

(01:23:34):
get contacted online from various people from really all over
the world. It's it really is amazing. It freaks me
out that this is possible, that you can just send
your tracks, you know, I know it's I'm kind of
late to the game, but but it's it's really cool.
I do a lot of that. I when I'm home,

(01:23:57):
I do if I'm not on the road, I'm basically
we doing the dad thing. I have three three young daughters,
and my wife Lynn, who you know, we just we're
just kind of They keep us so busy, man, It's
just so much going on in their lives, and I
try to be a part of it as much as
I can to be there. If I'm home, I'm there,

(01:24:22):
you know. So that's a lot.

Speaker 1 (01:24:25):
But you're also on the road, not with Steely Dan.

Speaker 2 (01:24:29):
Yeah right. I did a tour with Christopher Cross this summer,
which was great, a lot of fun. I did you
know the jazz thing comes up every now and then
I was in Japan at the Blue Note with with
Robin Ford and Bill Evans, Darryl Jones from the Stones,
I'm bass and that was so much fun. We were

(01:24:52):
there earlier this year. I even did a tour with
Wayne the Krantz Trio with Tim Lavay. We were out
earlier this year in Europe. So, I mean, there's always
stuff going on and it's fun. I like, I like
changing it up. I like I like doing different things,
so it just keeps things fresh and fun.

Speaker 1 (01:25:14):
Okay, so let's just assume there's no work. Will you
wait for work to play or do you play every day?

Speaker 2 (01:25:24):
Back in the day, I would play a lot, but
now it's it's kind of I play if I if
I have the work, because otherwise I'm I'm busy with
the kiddos and stuff. You know.

Speaker 1 (01:25:36):
So let's say there was no work for two weeks,
do you ever get a Handkory Man, I got to play?
Or waiting for the call or the email.

Speaker 2 (01:25:44):
Uh, I'll play at that point, I'll probably play a
little bit. You know, I can't be without it too long.
But but back in the old days, when I was younger, man,
it was like I would flip out if I wasn't
playing every single day. I mean, you know, it's funny
how things change, But yeah, I was. It was extreme,

(01:26:08):
really ridiculous.

Speaker 1 (01:26:11):
Okay, Keith, I want to thank you for taking this
time to talk to me and my audience. How long
are you going on on the road with Steely Dan?
How far out is that booked?

Speaker 2 (01:26:21):
Right now? It's just September through November, and we start
rehearsals next week in New York and then we'll be
out Steely Dan and the Eagles, which should be a
lot of fun and killer night of music and yeah,
and then we'll see what happens after that. Hopefully there's more.

Speaker 1 (01:26:44):
That's for sure. If you go to see Keith, you'll
know it's him behind the act. He's that dynamic and
that impressive in an event. Thanks again, Keith.

Speaker 2 (01:26:53):
Thanks for having me. I really appreciate the interest. Man.
I'm a big fan and follow your newsletter and have
for years, and as does my wife, so it's really
an honor to be with you today. Man, Thank you well.

Speaker 1 (01:27:05):
It's great. I'm a huge fan of your music too.
Until next time. This is Bob Leftstats