Marc Brickman

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob left That's Podcast.
My guest today is writing a production designer extraordinaire, Mark Brickman.
You know Mark from his work with such acts as
Pink Floyd, Paul McCartney, Bruce Greenstein. He even lit up
the Olympics. Mark. Good to have you on this show. Hi, Bob,

(00:29):
how are you. It's good to see you. Against be
in a few years. So what exactly is it you
do explain to my audience, Well, best way to describe
as our visual producer slash artists, just like you would
have when a band have songs and they get out
of the garage and they need a audio producer to
take them into the studio to make an album and

(00:50):
then they release it. I do the same thing for
live shows. So starting back in one, it wasn't really
much of an industry back then, and so um I,
I and a bunch of other guys turned it into one.
And so I really what we do what you see
now in two are extravagance as lots of visual material,

(01:13):
and it's really putting all of that together to translate
and tell the story of the music. It was a
lot easier earlier on in my career. These days it's
pretty complicated. I hope that made sense absolutely. Now some
tours have lighting designers and production designers or separate. Where

(01:34):
is the line between the two, if there is one
at all? There used to be a really strong line.
I kind of blurted myself back in the eighties, um
and and I didn't do it intentionally, but I probably
was a bit of egomaniacal and young, and so I
was one pink Floyd. I was a lighting designer, but
then I would get up set because the set designers

(01:54):
would come in and they would use the lighting to
light their sets, not to the music, because I'm music
is my life. It just always has been since I've
been very small, and so I always saw music, heard music,
colored music in my head. So probably in the mid

(02:15):
eighties I started designing. Actually around seventy nine with Ricky
Lee was when I actually became the lighting designer slash
set designer. Then I realized I was the production designer,
so I started asking for those credits um and I
think people copied my and then I became the visional
artistic director and the visual producer, and I would always

(02:38):
keep changing the title, and then I would see other
people using it. So there maybe I had a little hand,
small hand, Okay, so need let's just say the last
two years have been interrupted by COVID, But what is
occupying your time now? Well back probably around twenty after
Roger Waters, we mounted the Wall Show again, which myself

(03:01):
and Mark Fisher, UM, we're instrumental in putting that together
with Roger. After after I was finished with that project,
I realized it was I also had a one year
old daughter and it was time to actually pay attention
to real life. So I started UM transitioning it's good
work to to UM to really what I love doing.

(03:24):
And I could thank my wife for really getting me
into painting, probably back in in two thousand and two,
and UM, I really wanted to become an artist now
to talk about labels, it was time to really hit
the art world. So UM in the last two years
and and also my whole team, we started remotely being

(03:47):
in control of places like the Empire State Building. So
when there I was actually in New York when on
my way to Germany when COVID hit, UM came home
and UM I realized, UM, we didn't really miss a beat.
We were really lucky. I feel horrible about what happened

(04:07):
to a lot of my friends and and you know,
and and collaborators, but we were we were actually set
up to do everything Remotely, nothing really changed with us.
We never saw each other anyway, except maybe twice three
times a year when we had to be in the
same place. So um and I gave me more of
an opportunity to start painting, to start working on n

(04:30):
f T s, to start doing everything that I really
been wanting to do all these years. So that's how
I've been spending my time. Okay, so things have started
back up. Do you want to do tours? Do you
want to do stuff? Or you really pretty much transitioned
out of that. Well, you know, I'm a bit older.

(04:50):
So when I was young and coming up, and I
started when I was eighteen, you know, they were older
lighting designers and set signers, um and they I used
to look at them and think to myself, Wow, I
don't want to be that old and like still doing this,
but I hope I'll be doing something else. I didn't

(05:12):
know what it was so right now to answer the question,
it's difficult. I pretty much have a very small roster
of clients left, it's Steve Miller, Neil Young. Um, that's
if they remember me and David Gilmer. Um. But who knows,
maybe they hate me by now, I don't know. I
do speak to two out of this ree quite regularly.

(05:35):
Which one don't you speak to so regularly? Now? You
know Neil's Neil lives about a mile and a half
from our house, but I don't think he's been here
in Malibu for a while, so I haven't seen him
at the local Italian and I, uh, you know, I
don't know. I don't think I could. I don't think
I'll go out if somebody called me. Sure, I'd love

(05:56):
to do something, Um, I always do. I love live,
I mean live, experience nothing better in life, you know.
I even I don't watch my shows on after they
shoot them and they put them on YouTube. I don't
watch them. I can't. It's not the same thing. It's
being in that crowd that's so exciting. But I'm probably
actually nervous to find out that the crowd maybe isn't

(06:18):
as excited anymore. I don't know. I don't know if
I wanted to find out that answer a little bit slower.
You think that the crowd might be a little less
excited just because of the transitions in life in general
or specifically because of COVID. I think because things have
changed quite a bit, and I think people, you know,
I think, you know, the whole world has changed, and

(06:39):
I think people's excitement. I don't know. I don't have
the answer. I just I just have great memories of
what I've done in my life, and I don't know
if I want to go out there. I've talked to
a couple of people very recently that are out there
touring with bands, and it doesn't sound like it's a
very happy camp, you know. It sounds like it's it's difficult,

(07:02):
it's really and my heart goes out to them. It's
really you're talking about because of COVID restrictions. Yeah, because
of the restrictions and the restrictions on the audience and
just restrictions on the band, and that's got to take
a toll. I can't believe it's not that happy playland
that we used to live in, you know. I believe
I know some specifics where you know, if you're working

(07:23):
for the band, you couldn't even watch the show. It
was really crazy. Never mind that third parties come back.
You know that's funny you said that, because who wasn't Oh,
the Stones were in town and I remember Chuck Level
was playing keyboards and you know, hit him on text,
invited him out for pizza, and then you know he
went back on Man, I'd love to do that, but

(07:45):
I'm not allowed to leave. I happen to know that
I'm close to that camp. It's like, you can come
to the show, but we can't see you. We can't
see you, and I'm not allowed to leave the hotel.
I was like, And when he hit that was like
somebody through a cold water on my face. It really
woke me up too, just wow, Like I was speechless.

(08:06):
I really was. Okay. So let's say, you know, you
say you talked to Steve Miller and David Gilmore in
a regular basis. What what do you talk about? Hey man?
How are you were you doing? We're you know, Steve
and I became we have a really long relationship and
often on you know, things come in and out. But
right before COVID we we reignited our our love for

(08:29):
each other um in New York City and and then
I mean he went to see David Byrne nine times
on Broadway, and he took me six of the nine
times to see, you know, the Utopia and and because
we were both so blown away by it um and
and we just I was going to do his tour

(08:51):
in Um and we had a really um different approach
to the visual element of it UM. And I understood
his he he does have some parameters you have to
work inside, especially you know, he's he's a great producer
in terms of keeping his camp really tight. So but

(09:13):
I came up and that's what challenges me. It isn't
so much that I need lots of trucks with lots
of equipment. It's actually that back and forth with the
artist really trying to figure out, you know, how can
we do this and also be relevant and be and
be able to really translate what he's who he is
and what's what's going on. Okay, let's go back to

(09:34):
David Byrne show. What was so mesmerizing and would you
have done anything different? Well, it's funny you said that,
because David had called me um in twenty I think
it was, I can't remember. And I went to New
York and met him, met him for the first time,
and and I'd made some dry and he laid it

(09:55):
out for me what he wanted to do, but he
didn't quite have it in his head, but he had
some really great, really the ideas. I immediately just went.
I was right there with him because it was deconstructing
the concert. It was it was deconstructing and reinventing the
live experience. So I was there. I did a lot
of pre visualizations drawings for him. Um, something happened. It

(10:20):
wasn't me for the first time ever, but something happened,
and he didn't go out, and then I think he
had a shake up in management or record I don't
remember what happened. And then he went out on the
road with this version, and then it ended on Broadway.
So by that point they had hired somebody else. Um.

(10:40):
And when I remember was probably the second or third
time that I saw it. I remember sitting in the
audience next Steve, and then I suddenly went I remembered
that I had collaborated with David. I had forgotten the
first two times. So, um, it was it was just brilliant.
It was brilliant. It was Yeah. I can't really describe

(11:04):
how I felt the first time I saw it, I
just really was really so impressed and everything was just perfect. Okay,
let's go back to Steve Miller. Some acts like David
Gilmore go out and money is not He is not
really a constraint. I mean from the inside sometimes even
isn't even worried about making money, where Steve Miller traditionally
tours every year. So there you talk about parameters. When

(11:28):
you talked about working with Steve, how much of it
was pleasing Steve, how much was it interfacing with third
parties were part of his team, how much of it
is the constraints, the money, the stage, etcetera. Well, that's
a that's a really great question, um, and you and
you were spot on in your description. Absolutely. But Steven said,
let me just look, Steve's always been an outlier his

(11:51):
whole career. You know, he's he is his own man,
and he's always been in control of his destiny. So
he loves going out. He just loves playing. He's actually
the times that we change emails everything, he really he
misses the connection of the audience. That's his main purpose.
But he's not going out there and lose money, and

(12:13):
he's not gonna let and he's realized what his niches
and he's happy in it. He's very very happy. So
you gotta fit if you want to work with him,
You've got to fit inside of the construct that he's
made over the years of going out playing the sheds,
his his crew, he's very loyal to the band, to
his tour managers and managers, you know, so all that's

(12:34):
in place. So yeah, to fit in and be successful
is not an easy task. Um so, and I hope
I answered the question. Let's be very specific, so you
have the parameters of the type of buildings he plays,
and he wants to be involved. The tour didn't go,

(12:55):
but what did you suggest? It was pretty simple. The
best way to describe it as Steve Miller Neil like, Neil,
did you go to Coachella? Ocella? I purposely didn't go,
But that's a whole another story. When you go to
shows now, mostly the lighting is all just flashing lights
in people's eyes. That's it. I mean somewhere along this
it got very blurred and they took the lights off

(13:15):
the acts and he decided they're gonna light the audience
the whole night with what they call air graphics. They're
gonna build these crazy sets, um spend all kinds of money.
The audience it's coming to see. I mean, when I
was a kid, the anticipation was so great to go
see live entertainment that you know, I would accept anything.

(13:37):
I think that the audience still feels that way. And
so the one thing I said to Steve was they're
coming to hear the hits. They're coming to hear the music.
And he agrees with that, you know, And I said,
so we don't need really a lot of flashing lights,
and we don't need it distract the audience. They need
to really be able to tune into you. So we

(13:59):
came up came up with a very modern way of
kind of the best way to describe it was gonna
look like a bit of a James Terrell art installation.
Well we'll explain that not everyone's gonna know what that
it's more of a ambient using L e D s,
using the L e D screens, but using them as
light because that's what they are, they are light and
um and configuring them so not so much as you're

(14:22):
watching all these images all the time and getting even
more distracted with the image because your eye is either
going through the flashing lights or your eye is going
through the screen, but it's not going to the artist.
And what I do, and what my practice has always been,
is to really highlight not only the artists, but musically
where it's at in the moment. It's you know, it's

(14:43):
it's it's you know, Steve stops playing, the keyboard player
takes a solo, you're on that. That's you take the
audience's eye to that, so they're feeling the emotion. They're
really connecting with the band playing. Um, so I focused.
I was bringing it back to him that way, but
finding a way to do it inside his budget, which

(15:04):
I did. But let's let's be very specific. You have
a historical relationship with Steve Miller, you decide to work together,
tell me that. I mean, I know the show didn't
go out, but most shows do. From the moment you say, hey,
you'll be interesting to work together to the first show,
what's the process, It's well, it starts with ideas. It's

(15:25):
like whoever it is, it starts with that. So we
I do pre visualizations. Um, and I do it in
a little bit. Let's slow down for a second. You're
gonna work with the act. Do you ask them what
they're looking for? Now? What does some acts tell you what?
Or do you just say, hey, Mark want to work
with you come back with ideas. I have a reputation.

(15:45):
I just have an unlisted phone number, and my phone
would just ring. And you know, I got hired for
The Wall the night before they opened at the Sports Arena.
The night before I had less than twenty four hours
to turn that show around. My phone rang. The day
after Ricky Lee Jones played Saturday Night Live, was Bob
ri Gear from Warner Brothers saying, You're meeting Mick Ricky tomorrow.

(16:09):
I mean, I can go down the line of Um,
I met Bruce Springsteen at the Widener College. Um, Mike
Capelle had his his drill sergeant had on and he
would call the lighting cues. And but I knew all
the lighting cues without that. I just met them. Um.
Clyde Davis told them at the bottom line, don't let

(16:30):
that guy go. I mean, my whole life has been
these moments in time where um, I'm honored, but people
come to me and they go, Okay, let's work together.
I think there's a there's a moment that happens where
I'm I'm accepted and respected as an artist. It's a

(16:53):
it's a not just as a lighting guy. You know
that they understand the drama that I bring and also
the I'm trying not to be ego maniacal and describing it,
but it's because man, it's your window busykommiacles you way,
that's dangerous, um, but but I it to me. I

(17:14):
always designed the shows for the last kid in the
last row, UM, because it brings the energy forward if
you could, and that was before there were video screens,
because if you could really bring that music out through
the audience, it was important. And I realized early on
that lighting was the most powerful tool we had in
the toolbox out there in the in the arena. The

(17:34):
same thing on Broadway. Some of my you know, some
of my famous lighting designer friends aren't Broadway who I
looked up to when I was a kid, like Jules Fisher,
Baron Musterer all. You know, they were just geniuses that
doing that in the theater. Um and and Jules and
I became and Peggy became friends many many years ago. UM.

(17:57):
But you know he I was in awe of jewels. Um.
So it's it's the idea of being able to focus
the audience. I think that's really what it's about. So
the artist, the artist kind of the manager has found me.
Suddenly I'm delivered in their in their presence. So we
start talking. I listened to what like Roger Waters, for instance,

(18:17):
he has a very definite idea what he's trying to do,
so I'll hear the story. He doesn't know how to
do it, but he does know that he's not happy
right now, right and so I have this moment to
prove myself. Well, let's be very specific. You know they're
doing the wall. You know it's it's not a tourist,

(18:37):
just limited shows. They've obviously built the set with the world,
with the bricks, etcetera, etcetera. They call you and what
if they're opening the next day? Well, what happened was
and once again I'll get back to what I just said.
A few minutes ago I walked in. I mean it
was it was total chaos. It was two d people
working last minute to finish this, and we all know

(19:00):
I was sitting. They were spending two million bucks in
the nine nine of their own money, and I mean,
like so I watched the rehearsal. What they had was
they had these things called cherry Pickers. I mean they
were the best known art band ever, you know, like
nobody really knew what they looked like. They were anonymous.

(19:22):
It was about the light show and the and the
but that light show was more abstract. He was now
doing a rock opera, very exact rock opera in terms
of queuing, blocking musicians here there, you know, you know
it was it was full on. But all the lights
when I walked in and they did the rehearsal, we're everywhere.

(19:43):
They were on the whole time, flashing and just there
was no continuity. So after after the after they did
the run through, I went through his caravan and he said, well,
what do you think? And I said, I told him exactly,
And I just said and then I said, he says,
give me example, just like you're saying. I said, okay,

(20:05):
at the beginning of the show, the cherry Pickers get airborne.
They go up there hydraulic, they fly around. Said, but
in another brick in the wall, it gets really quiet
and there's a helicopter sound, and it's dark. You know,
there should be darkness and you should hear nothing but
the helicopter sound. And then suddenly five seconds in a

(20:25):
five count in suddenly the cherry pickers with white lights
beaming straight down start lifting off up into the air.
You don't know what they are. They're very ominous, you know.
And then they come toward you just just as the
drums hit, you know, and let that down beat right.
And he looked at me, and he looked Steve Rourke
and he said, get Graham was the manager, just to

(20:48):
be clear, Yeah, yeah, Steven Rekers, no matter. And Graham
who was Graham Graham Graham Fleming was he? I guess
he was part owner. He was a lighting designer for
Pink Floyd, part owner Britannia row Or he had an
interest in it, which was Pink Floyd's sound and light
company back in seventy nine. So Roger, after I explain
what he just said to Roger, Roger, he says, get um,

(21:12):
get Graham. You know. Graham comes in and he looks
at Graham, he goes, you have cotton in your ears,
you know, And he goes and then he looks at me.
He goes, you're hired, and I'm uh, And Graham gave
me a look like I'm going to kill you. You know.
I don't know what. I don't know what you said,
but I'm gonna kill you. And then he says to Graham,

(21:32):
you're dismissed. And then he turns to me and he goes,
you have you know, tonight and until we go on
tomorrow night to fix it. And I said, okay, you're dismissed,
and I left. You know, I walked, so I walked
out into it was a sports may and I walked
out into the vomitorium. I always remember this. It was

(21:54):
like one of those commercials. I think it was a
Merrow Lynch commercial where wait wait, wait, you called it
right here, right, You called it the vomitorium. Yeah, it's
a volmatorium. That that's what they're called there. The old
theatrical term is vomitorium. It's it's the entrance way into
the arena on the floor. I've never heard that, Okay,

(22:14):
I've always called it that. That's what I've was taught.
Maybe it was a joke. We'll find out from your listeners.
Well that's what I remember, But keep keep going with
the narrative. So you walk out through the vomitory anyway,
I walk I walk out there and I stopped. Suddenly,
all the work that had been going on that also stopped,
and everyone looking at me, the whole crew, because Graham

(22:35):
had gone out there first, and you know, he was
just and he should have been just really at piste off,
wanting to kill me, and the words spread like wildfire,
and everybody was just looking at man. I thought to myself,
oh shit, you know, like now what And then suddenly,
like almost like a dream, these I see two figures

(22:56):
approaching me, and the one guy reaches out his hand
goes hi, I'm Robbie Williams, and you know, like, you know,
nice to meet you. And then the other guy, who
looked like a professor with glasses and curly hair, he
puts out his hand and goes hi, I'm Mark Fisher,
and we think you need our help and I would friends,

(23:16):
you know, and the rest is history. As they say,
um they became. Mark became one of my really dear friends,
and I miss him dearly now. He was I don't know,
for the listeners. Mark Fisher was the greatest rock and
roll set designer, architect, visionary and human being on the
planet in the business for years now, for the late person.

(23:46):
We look at the lights, the rigs, the board. You're
now dropped in twenty four hours before you know. The
person might say, well, do you need different equipment? I mean,
or you just make do with what's there back then
and say mean, Now, there was no automation, so first
of all, there were no very lights. The lights that
were rigged would be rigged. The best thing I so

(24:06):
what you're do in a situation just go again, going
back to what I've described earlier, they had all the
lights on. The simplest thing to do is get rid
of the green gels, changed the jail colors to a
lot of stuff, and then they had a lighting console
not programmable, but it did have flash buttons on it

(24:27):
for run like Hell, and that's where the only place
I'd use it would be run like Hell. But I
had to actually program it and run it myself the board,
and so it was all on me. I didn't have
any assistance or other people a programmers, and it was
all just me. As a matter of fact, that the
end to run like Hell. On the first night, I

(24:48):
broke some of the handles off the board and made
my fingers bloody, and our work came up to me
like at the end and gave me some band aids,
you know, like because I I was, I look, I
was what was I? I was twenty seven years old,
twenty six years old, twenty seven so you know it

(25:08):
was it was wild. Okay, let's go back to the
the overall paradigm. So if someone wants to work with you,
you come up with ideas, what do you actually present
to the Since the early nineties when Amiga computers were
still on, and actually back in the late seventies when
I was working with Springsteen on one of the original apples,

(25:28):
I started doing visual presentations to the clients rather than
just the hand drawings. I would do some hand drawings too,
because the illustrators are amazing, and some of them are
you know. Those kind of drawings were great. But then
the three D really allowed us to walk and move
around inside the space, you know, and and actually help

(25:51):
because the pretty pictures are really single, single dimensional. So
you can look at the pretty picture, but a lot
of people have a hard time really imagining it it's
going to look like. So we do it in three D,
and I still do. We have a very robust um.
Now it's it's standard to do everything in three D.
As a matter of fact, I'm working on something right

(26:13):
now where you know, VRS gotten very big in this
area where the act can put VR glasses on and
actually walk around the stage and etcetera, etcetera. That's the
next step. So you're presented to them. Then does it
depend on the artists. Some artists say love it go
or do they want to get in the details? What's
the next step out? Yeah, for the most part, I don't.

(26:35):
I usually don't meet much resistance because my ideas are individual.
I never I try not to copy any you know,
every artist and individual, every show, every projects individual. So
I usually have you know, maybe there's a couple of
things they want to change. Great, But the next step
is the production manager you know, and the manager you

(26:57):
know on both soldiers how much right? And so the
next step is the budget and dealing with the lighting
companies and the and the construction companies and you know,
things like that, and starting to really put the budget together. Um.
And and that's the hardest part. It always is. Money
is always the hardest part. But but I have to say,

(27:20):
with Pink Floyd, with most of the acts, I know
what I'm walking into Pink Floyd never ever really brought
the money up. A Rourke really protected me. Um Steamer
work was just he was an incredible human being, but
he really protected me and and it worked well. So

(27:43):
I've been pretty lucky. As my friend, I've been extremely
lucky in my in my career. Okay, let's talk about
the money for a second. Okay, you're talking to the
manager and the production manager starts zero down. Hey, is
it you personally who comes up with the number or
do you have other people who do that? And how
do you side what the net should be? And do
you negotiate or does someone else negotiate? It's changed over

(28:05):
the years, it's changed, and now now these companies are
so huge, the big companies, the big guys are so
big that uh, the lighting designers being you know, the
designers are there, but there's a bit of a it's
it's a little cloudy. It's the best way I can

(28:26):
describe it. Production managers have a lot of power also,
so they're pretty much the guy in the middle. Everyone's
in the middle, and and that's where a lot of
the friction comes with me. Because I'm used to dealing
with the artists. I understand what the production manager does
does a great job. He's got to be there, he's
got to move it everywhere, he's got to make it happen.

(28:48):
But when it comes to the art, so you know,
sometimes I've had a couple of bad experiences with um,
you know, production managers. And what would you consider to
be a bad experience. Oh no, I don't know. If
I want to go negative, Um, well go negative and
not mention the name, just so we can understand the concept.
Here's a good one, so Trent Reser. And this is

(29:10):
a small one, but it's a small example. So nine
inch nails. Um, they had a guy for years working
doing the lighting. For some reason, they made a switch
and I got the phone call and I went and
did it and we go into rehearsals. It was down
at Olympic Downtown l A. When it used to be
that wrestling ring, right. And the production manager, I don't know.

(29:33):
I can't even describe his his presence, but he very
involved in everything, including what I do, which well I
don't get involved what he does. So don't don't get
come into my world. It's like, don't come into my studio.
I'm painting, you know, Like I don't need to hear
about blue. So one night I'm there and late at night,

(29:54):
because that's when all the magic happens, late at night,
and I'm programming. We're now, we're in the modern age.
Moving lights. To a matter of fact, that show, I
took L E D screens first time ever, and I
used them right above their heads, like eight ft above
their heads, and used the light from the l E
ed as the light to light the band. Really, it

(30:14):
was really really attractive and very powerful, just like the band.
The guy comes up to me and he says to me,
I don't think those are nine inch nails colors. And
I remember looking at him and and I said to him,
do you have a dictionary? And he goes, what do

(30:39):
you want a dictionary for? I need to understand what
that means. I don't know. I don't have any idea
what you mean. And obviously that that didn't go down
too good. It in escalated from there. Um I was
being I was soft pedaling it a little bit. I'm
not using too many names, but it's those moments where
an and and other things I've gotten really out of

(31:02):
hand A couple of times. Um, I do I do
have a bit of a temper sometimes. Most of the time,
I don't use it because that's not a way to
get ahead in the world. But but I do come
from Philadelphia and and uh and I had a fight
when I was a kid a lot. So okay, we live,
especially the younger generation, it's all about getting along. Could

(31:25):
you exercise your temper? Because you were just that much
in demand for a long time, people put up with me. Yes, absolutely, Yeah, Yeah,
I had the big label on my back. I didn't
work too much in television because I thought most of
the TV stuff that I mean, I had my own
opinions about it, very opinionated. Um so, yeah, I got

(31:47):
a lot of trouble, but a lot of but I
was so good at what I did that they put
up with me. Also, look, it was a different time
because everybody was out of their minds, you know. We
it's no different than today. You know, what I love
about the world is is actually getting to this point
in my life looking backwards, knowing that the young generations

(32:12):
doing exactly what we did, only with different clothes, fashion, communications,
you know, technology. But basically it's all still there. It's
all still going on, you know, because that's what happens
in life. You go through these stages and cycles. So
let's go back to the beginning. You're from Philadelphia. I'm

(32:32):
from Philadelphia. Okay, what did your parents do for a living?
My father was a carpet salesman. But he should have
he should have been a biochemist, but the depression hit
and his father died and he had to take care
of his family, so he ended up becoming a salesman.
My mother was a homemaker. UM. And I was an

(32:55):
only child. Only child? Was there a specific reason you
were only child? My parents got married late in life. UM,
And I think that I was enough. My mother always
said having you was enough. So so what kind of
kid were you grow growing up? Either kind of making trouble,
bouncing off the walls, good student, bad students. I was
bouncing off the walls. But I did go to So

(33:16):
in Philadelphia there's a high school, UM and it's the
second oldest high school in America. It's called Central High School, UM.
And it's all it's all academic, like a magnet school
and it and it draws from the whole city and
my father went there. Was founded in eighteen sixty three,
and it graduates of their classes to the Ivy League schools.

(33:37):
So I went there. I barely got out. But that's
when I was introduced to lights because I was a
chairman of my sock cop committee and that's when I
built my first light show in tenth grade. So you're
the chairperson of the cop committee. What kind of talent
were you buying in the late sixties named talent the

(33:58):
local Bayols? Oh yeah, we bought we well, so we
had we lived in Philly. We were buying at Delphonix
and we were buying we on our senior problem. We
had Arthur Brown really yeah, man, yeah yeah, and he
lit his hair off. I gotta ask, I never saw
Arthur Brown live. How good was he? Well? I was sixty.

(34:21):
I graduated high school at sixteen. So he had his
hair on fire at this really fancy hotel and downtown Philadelphia,
and so I mean it was fantastic. I mean, like
what else can you say? And the girl I was with,
she just was completely blown away by and like wow.
But in the tenth grade, I turned the high school

(34:43):
gym into this huge UV day glow, the black light
you know with Arco, remember the Arco Absolutely right? Okay,
So all the Arco balls flying around the room and
it was complete chaos. Um and eleventh grade I think
was Delfon tenth grade. I can't remember the act. We
are no, we had good budgets. We were okay, okay,

(35:05):
did you want to do all that day glow stuff?
Because it was hip then and let's be outrageous. When
was your interest in visual production live lights kindle? It
started then? But see I was where I lived to
where my school was was an hour and a half
by bus, so there were a couple other you know,
three busses with transfers and the whole thing. So I

(35:27):
I used to have to do that. But then there
was a couple of guys in my neighborhood that were
a year older than I was, and they had cars.
So one of the guys Uh ended up in his
sixty four corvet he Um. He also had this liken.
He would sell records forty five singles and he got
them from from a gamble and huff, you know, from

(35:48):
the when it was the record company not Chess, I
can't remember. And anyway, so he had a thing with
the distributor with all the forty five singles, right, and
so we would go to these return any dances every
weekend and sell singles inside of that. I had just
finished doing the light show and he was asked if

(36:09):
he could provide a light show for these dances. So
I built a light show. I did it, and we
used to trip around every weekend. It wasn't so much
I was interested in it. I was fourteen or fifteen
years old, so it was it was great fun and
I was I was meeting girls. Okay, wait, if we
go to the late sixties, what they called the light

(36:31):
show then was gels and oils more than light oils.
I made, Yeah, I made my own polarized slides and
I had my own light bars with color origans, you know,
sound to light, and they would they would flash everything.
But I had projectors at all that. Okay, So why
did you graduate at sixteen? And what do you do

(36:51):
after you graduating? I graduated sixteen because I was skipped
somewhere in third grade or something. Day I don't I
don't have a great memory. And my parents are here
anymore too. I can't call them up, and you know,
essen what what was it all about? But they skipped
me a grade or something and I ended up graduating
the sixteen. I didn't really think anything of it except

(37:12):
I couldn't drive until I got out of high school,
so I that was the only thing I cared about.
I'm still really close friends with one of my high
school buddies. He's still in Philly. Um and we we
we we see each other all the time. Um um
but um yeah. No, after that, I went to college.
I went to Philadelphia College and Textiles and Science for

(37:34):
um a half a year, and I got kicked out
for what not going to jim But I did do
a real professional light show before I left with the
James Gang, which my parents came to just turn from
Joe Walsh and daur again. Okay, well wait, I was
my first real gig to James Gang in the gym

(37:55):
of this college, probably November nineteen seventies, somewhere around there. Um.
Then they kicked me out and my father looked at me,
and my father is always very pragmatic, the coolest dude
in the world, said to me, I guess you gotta
get a job, and goes, well, why don't you go

(38:16):
down to the lighting company you just rented those lights
from and asked them for a job. Okay, So I
went downtown. Um, I got the job. And then about
oh a year later, what was your job? My job
was was was was working in the warehouse selling This

(38:38):
business was a fifty year old theatrical supply house that
serviced all of the theaters in Philadelphia, all the colleges,
all the universities, all the spectrum Larry Maggott Electric Factory,
the whole thing. So that was my job, just taking
stuff everywhere. As a matter of fact, my job was
also doing light shows at the r Low Ballroom in Camden,

(39:01):
New Jersey on Saturday nights the b y o B
Bring your own bottle kind of you know gigs where
bands would play like war and I can't remember all
the but every Saturday night I go to Camden and
do light shows until like six in the morning. Um.
That that kind of was my job. And and also
working in the union. So after a year or what happened.

(39:23):
So the business was owned by this guy called the
original guy. William McAvoy had passed away. So this guy,
Adam Cutler bought it. But he was a really well
known sign He had a big sign company in Philadelphia, Jersey. Whatever.
He bought the business for his son Adam, and Adam
was in his twenties, and what they did was uh

(39:46):
Cutler's best friend with this guy Luke Kellman. Luke Kellman
was sixty two sixty three years old, and he was
going to be the adult inside of McAvoy because Adam
was in his mid twenties. What happened a year later
was Adam didn't want a part of the business. He
was a free spirit nine seventy one, so he took

(40:07):
off to New Jersey to go at the apple farms,
the theatrical like hippie kind of commune, and he just
didn't want the business anymore. So the old man decided, um,
he wanted to sell the business. So Lou, and I'll
tell you his history because this will blow your mind.

(40:27):
So Lou caton to me and goes, what your dad do?
Does he want to come in with me? You know?
And I went, I don't know. So I went to
my dad and I said, do you want to go
into the business with this guy? My dad, like I
think he thought he calculated that. Well, he didn't send
me to college, he didn't have to pay for that,
so why not. So we got in business with Lou.

(40:50):
Now Lou Kellman. He had the first animated series, it
uh animated cartoon series called Diver Dan. This was actually probably,
I think on the East Coast. I can't say it
was before Disney, but he had, but in Philadelphia it was.
It was very popular in the East Coast. He also

(41:11):
produced a film with Dick Gregory and Verna lesi Um
in the early sixties, which was unheard of. They wanted
him to come out to Hollywood and he refused. And
his nephew was Maurice Kessler. Now Maurice Kessler was on
Thirteenth Street and he owned a company called NFL Films,

(41:32):
and so Lou used to work at night in the warehouse,
you know, cutting NFL films. He actually started Nflms NFL
Films with Mars and I knew all those guys and
they were around. And then inside of that there was
another guy hanging around called Garrett Brown, and Garrett Brown

(41:53):
used to come get loose stage advice because Lou was
actually just boy genius and really well respected. Garrett Brown
event at the Steadicamp, which a lot of it was
assembled in the warehouse where I was in business with
this guy. So my education, it was my college. It

(42:14):
really was my college and and that's how I really learned.
Between that working union stages, doing all that stuff. That
that's really where I got my my own Yeah, all
my education. So how do you transition to big rock acts? Well,
I loved music. So my uncle, um he played uh

(42:35):
big in big bands, played in Dorset's band, and played
a bunch of other bands. Um, he was the black
sheep of the family. My mother hated him. He smoked hope.
He was a photographer. He but he loved me and
he gave me my first camera and enlarging machine, my
first clarinet. I mean, he was you know, he he

(42:55):
was a cool dude. Um. And so I was always
and my dad was really in the Broadway shows. So
music was always in the house, Um, jazz, Broadway shows.
It was always in my psyche. And so I when
I moved out and I was living, you know, downtown Philly,

(43:16):
I loved music. I was listening to w MMR ed
Shocky all the time. It became one of my good friends.
And uh, I met Bruce Springsteen through it. In no
other ways I met I met the music, I met
the man through it. Because Philly was Bruce's probably biggest Town,
you know, in the beginning, that's what started started. But

(43:38):
before that, because I went around all of Pennsylvania doing
light shows, there was a Steve Miller gig I got
and it was at Penn State University, and I did
my design in my head and I drove whatever it
was four hours after Penn State did the show. I
thought I'd meet Steve at the end of it, and

(43:58):
that didn't happen. That didn't happen anyway, Steve came back. Well,
I was doing Pink Floyd and UH, New York. I
guess it was eighty seven Masson Square Garden eight nine on.
And remember at UH at the end of the show,
I always remember, I looked at my left and there's

(44:19):
Steve Miller right off the riser looking at me, and
and I went, whoa, because I never really got over,
not not getting anywhere with it any any uh. He goes, hey, Matt,
this was just unbelievable, goes, I want to I want
to work with you. I'm like, okay, you know, I

(44:39):
want to work with you. He goes, okay, So I'm
going out like two months. I want everything you have
up there, and I wanted in two trucks which was like,
you know, impossible, impossible. Well, you're in Philly and you
meet Bruce, how do you end up working with Bruce? Well,
it was that first show. I said it earlier. It

(45:01):
was Widener College, and I talked my way in to
to be see. I mean, back then the colleges had
a budget and they would so the bands would just
show up and they'd have to hire local sounds and
lights and so the guy that was doing Bruce's sound
around the Tri State area was a guy called Dave

(45:22):
Hughes Sound Specialties. Even though Claire Brothers and Lydditz was
just down the road and I was I knew Roy
and Gene and Michael. He showed up later, um and
and so I showed up a Widener. I knew every
every musical queue. I knew every time Clarence was going

(45:42):
to hit it. Stephen wasn't in the band. This was
back when it was Boom Boom, Carter, Davy, Sanchez and
Clarence with um um, you know Gary. And so at
the end of it, a pel was just blown away,
throws me back. It takes me backstage to meet Bruce,

(46:02):
and Bruce goes, yeah, man, he goes, I really noticed
the difference. Yeah, if you can, if you can somehow
figure out a way to show up at all the gigs, man,
I'd love to have you around, right Like, they didn't
hire me. They had no money. They were they were
driving around station wagons. I was driving around in a van. Okay,
so did you show up? I did. I would call

(46:24):
up all the promoters and tell them that, Well, Barry
Bell from William Morris told me to call you to
tell you that I'm the sanctioned lighting designer for Bruce Springsteen.
I would lie through my teeth all the time, and
and my price was right, which was what zero fifty
bucks or less? Yeah, okay, so Bruce starts to accelerate.

(46:55):
Were are you in that equation? I'm very much in
there because Bruce plays the bottom line. I think for
two nights, I forget what your was. It must have
been like seventy two, seventy three, seventy three, big, big,
big thing at the bottom line. I hitched hype to
New York. I didn't even have a car. I hitchhike
to New York. I figured I'd hitch hike back or

(47:16):
or oh no, I was gonna sleep at the roadies
house two nights. So I was gonna sleep at the
Roadies house, Mike Batlan's house overnight, and then somehow maybe
I was going to get a room that second night
and then take a train back or something. I don't know,
but I don't remember exactly what happened. I hitch hiked
up the bottom Line. I walked in the bottom Line,
and obviously there was so much hype going on, and

(47:38):
I was met with that wall of technicians. You know,
it was a big that was the big time right
bottom line, New York City, early seventies. And they all
looked at me, like, what do you want and I'm like, well,
on Bruce's light guy, Oh yeah, New York. It's like,
you know, walking into Madison Square Garden the first time,
you know. And anyway, I did did my job. I

(48:01):
did everything I needed to do, and at the end
of it, I was getting ready to leave and Mike
Capelle shows up and he said to me, do you
know do you know who was do you know who
was just backstage with Bruce Clide Davis, And do you
know what Clive Davis said? Clide Davis says, I can't
let you go. I have to hire you right now

(48:21):
in the spot. You can't just go around picking up
gigs like that and showing up. You have to become
part of our organization. And I hope he gives you
the money for it anyway. That that's that was the
moment that I then started touring with Bruce exclusively. And
how long did that? Laugh sadly, I mean triumphantly. It

(48:44):
lasted until one was born in the USA that was
it was before that was like eighty three. I think
maybe Babe was eighty three efore. Yeah, yeah, Nebraska, Yeah,
well whatever, those years. I mean, it was great. When
Mike left, it wasn't so great. Stevie shows up, that's great.

(49:04):
Landau was there, he wasn't a fan. It gets a little,
it gets it gets, it gets a little weird, and
and Bruce is getting really big. At the same time,
I had moved to California. I was managing South Side
Johnny with Stephen Tour managing them. I was on the
road with them and I was part of it. But
then some weird stuff started going on. So I decided

(49:28):
to move to California. And my parents had just moved
out here year earlier, so I figured I'd come out
here I could still work with Bruce. Wait, wait just
for one second. What happened to the lighting company when
they said they were gonna hire me? I kind of
went back and realized this was what I wanted to do,
and that we were gonna have to sell our interests.

(49:50):
And we did, and and it was bought by this
guy who I'm still friends with, this guy Don Earle
out of He lives in Lanta City. Now he's got
a lighting come in Atlantic City called Earls Girls. It's
a great guy. You know, right before the pandemic. I
met him in New York, had lunch, you know, so um, yeah,
he bought He bought my share and kept lou employed.

(50:13):
Louis state employed. Okay, so you're did you make anybody
when we sold it? No? Okay, So I moved to California.
You're managing South Side with Stephen. Well, that kind of
went south because something went on. Something went on where,
and I don't still don't know to this day. I

(50:33):
don't know. Anyway, it was time to go because I
was living a mom a's beach. I had moved up
to Jersey. I was living a momma's beach across the
street from Clarence and UM and I took off. I
came out here and we did UM. So I got
married out here and Bruce played at my wedding, UM
at the Whiskey Elmer closed it and you know I

(50:56):
had I had Bruce, Boss Gags, Rickey, Lee Jones all
at my playing there, my house band, and I brought
out Jerry blabbittt, the DJ from Philly, the heater with
the Heater, who everybody loved. He came out and everything
was okay. Bruce then wrote The River and there were
some songs on the River that my wedding inspired him,

(51:17):
because if you look at the cover, there's the the
wedding dress and a little girl want to marry you,
and that he told me there were a few songs
on there that I inspire. That history kind of has
changed though through the years I've been kind of not
persona non grata um by you know, not not to

(51:40):
get into that, but things change. Well, let's just go
a little bit. When it ends with Bruce, does it
end ugly? Yeah? Okay, And at this late date, any
contact with that camp where there's no reason I've seen
I've seen Bruce a number of times and it's been
very friendly, which is fine. It's like having a divorced wife.

(52:02):
It's it's like, you know, because back then I was
there when none of us had any money. He didn't
have any money. When he split with a pell, the
crew took basically you know, I don't know all the details,
but we used to like work for very little, and
we just kept going on the road while he was
going through a lawsuit. And then when there was a

(52:23):
change of you know, management, you know, Stevie departed, then
I departed. There was a pattern going on anyway, as
I mean, God bless everybody at Tiny Tim So I
I don't hold any any things and it's at this
point in my life it doesn't really matter. Um. The

(52:44):
last time was so Bruce and John Um was when
The Rascals opened on Broadway, which Stevie and I did. Um.
They were at the they were at the at the
opening and the after part and it was all really
very pleasant. The weird part about I have a very

(53:05):
distinctive voice because I'm from Philly, But over the years,
every time I would run into some of them, like
Roy Bitton lives in my neighborhood. He lives on Point doom.
I run into him at the market, fantastic. Um. But
every time I'd run into Bruster John or Barry Bell,
they would never know who I was. They would always

(53:27):
go do it, and I go no. It was actually comical.
It's like something out of Larry David. Um. Um, it's
a shame. Look. I grew up with Springsteen's music one
hands down on four hours music with no set list,

(53:49):
where everybody was trained as a unit. That's what made
me who I was because there were no set lists.
It was like he would he would get on that
stage and it was like a force of nature back then,
you know, and he continued doing that throughout his years. Um.
I saw the show on Broadway to um, which was

(54:11):
a different thing. Obviously he's there by himself. Um it
it really what he did with it. It toughened me
up for the rest of my experiences in the business
on a certain level because I was really naive, really naive.
Um and um. It was painful, but you know what

(54:34):
they say, one thing begets another. When I got hired
for Pink Floyd the night before, I find out many
years later that Alan Parker and Roger waters Uh together
went to a Springsteen show and they were blown away
by the lighting and that when that moment came that

(54:59):
Roger knew that, Um, he had to change the lighting
guy out. He said, find the guy. Nobody knew who
I was. Find the guy that did Springsteen. And that's
how I got that phone call. Okay. So if it
ends with Springsteen, just to be clear, it ends with
Springsteen around Born in the USA or after the River,

(55:20):
when does it end for you? It ended because of
myself and Roger Waters and Bruce and some people maybe
miscommunicating some things. And so it was right before Bruce
started Born in the USA rehearsals, and and it should
it didn't need to have ended, but it did. It was.

(55:40):
So what's that three? Probably something like that. Okay. But
while you were working for Bruce starting in the early seventies,
were you also working for other racks? Not until um,
I got out of here with Bruce at the Roxy.
So we're just like the bottom line, We go and

(56:01):
play the Roxy for two nights whenever. That was seventy five,
I think he was born and born to run. I
think it was seventy five, and I was really a
handful I loaded. I brought all my own. By that point,
I would bring lights into everywhere I went. I wouldn't
use just what was in the house. Bringing lights into

(56:22):
the Roxy was unheard of. It raised all kinds of alarms.
And I walked in there and this guy shows I
mean it was late at night, it was after a show.
It was like one and two in the morning. I'm
loading in all these lights and this guy shows up
with a kind of a cowboy hat, swede, long hair
down to here. Really yeah, And I'm I'm being a dick,

(56:43):
you know, I'm really, I'm being a fucking asshole. And
and he walks up to me and very quietly says,
can I help you? I'm Elmer Valentine. And while I
owned this place and the rocks the Rainbow next door,
is there anything I can do for you? And I
looked at alway, Yeah, I need some pizza. And the
next thing I know from the Rainbow is like eight
pieces delivered to the stage, and he goes, is there

(57:05):
anything else I can do for you? You know? Yeah,
when you have those moments, I mean, Elma and I
became and and and Mario and Lou and I'd see
Lou Everyone's While he doesn't remember me, Elmer was was
the man, you know. Um. But we did to show
it the next night and that that little booth and uh,

(57:30):
they did thunder Rode. Bruce started with thunder Roade and
just as and I would have these two blue lights
just that's all, no spotlight or anything. And Roy's playing
the piano. He and Bruce had the harmonica, but I
would do the thing where you wouldn't see his face.
That whole idea of making him more cinematic was part
of my my my repertoire, you know, my my practice. Um.

(57:52):
And at the end of it, when the two blue
lights are fading, fading, fading, suddenly this woman just jumped
up into the window. Her face is right in the
window and she goes, I love you just like that, right,
and she sits back down and I'm like, yeah, because
we're getting ready to get into I don't know what
he was doing. Next, Almer looks at me. He's standing
right next to me, and Alma was like, you could

(58:14):
hear him kind of just just breathing a little heavier
than normal because it was very dramatic, you know, and
the place was you could hear a pin drop and
it wasn't just because of a lighting because it was
it was giving Bruce that envelope of really putting forth
what he was trying to communicate. He was faceless at
that time, you know. I mean it was very dramatic,

(58:36):
very theatrical, and and and then Elma goes that was
Carol King and I'm like what. Well, within about a month,
six weeks, I was working with Carol King and she
threw me into her tour which they had already hired
this lighting guy, and he got pushed aside for letting

(58:57):
me come in. This was kind of a pattern for
me in the seventies where they would push aside the
guy that was there, and I would get placed inside
these unknown, you know, unknown people unknown. The only person
I would have a friend with would be the artist
that would that would be it. So this is before automation,

(59:20):
So you have to go you have to go to
every show absolutely and run the board and talked to
all these crazy spotlight guys. But I kept innovating the
whole time. I kept innovating and innovating and innovating, and
you know, I kept upping the anti because I could,
I mean, wherever I could innovate I would, and I

(59:42):
kept pushing the envelope even without the automation. When the
automation showed up, which was eighty six, you know, very light.
I'm still friends with the guy. He called me up,
wanted me to go see Genesis. And oh, by the way,
just just from the time with Carol and I left Bruce.

(01:00:05):
Then I really started working a lot of people. My
next one up was Joni Mitchell, which I had to
probably one of the best experiences ever. And I have
a I have a painting she made for me which
I cherished to this day. And and that's when I
became friends with Elliott, you know. And and there were
some managers that could deal with my insanity, Steve Elliott,

(01:00:30):
you know, I mean there were some managers that could
understand what was going on in my brain. So you
just were just so, I know, you were just yourself seven.
You didn't care how you came across or anything. No. Well,
now now I would probably be I probably now in
this day and age, in this enlightened time that we

(01:00:50):
live in, you know, and I mean that I really
do that that I probably would have been diagnosed with
like Tourette's a d H D all of it, you know,
I told you, you know, just I'm just one of
the bipolar. I don't know, I'm one of those guys.
I'm on all the time. I've learned how to. I've
had to learn how to somewhat tamp it down. But

(01:01:17):
the other part of it is if I tamp it
down too much, I'm not creative anymore. My brain shuts down.
I don't think well. Usually people were that abbed up.
If they're literally bipolar, they also crashed and get depressed.
On the other side, do you have that outside too, well,
when I'm not working, when I feel like nobody likes
me and then I beat the ship out of myself,

(01:01:38):
or when I'm dealing with look the golden age that
we lived and we grew up. Your columns are the
are the lifeblood of my of my of the times
when I do get depressed, because I read that and
you bring me back to such great times and memories
and it makes it balances me out to a place
where I'm like kind of going, why I did some

(01:01:59):
really great things. It's it's okay, you know, And yeah,
you're older now, and that's just normal. It's a normal
cycle of life, right, And you have to do this yourself.
You have to find your own audience. Mark and I
had these discussions, and my wife is amazing. She's Katherine.
She's been with me for twenty years. And I have

(01:02:19):
a producer named Alicia Griego who has to deal with
me on a day to day basis. And you know,
it ain't easy for either one of them doing the math.
That is not the woman who got married too with
the whiskey. What happened there? No, um, we we we
You know I was too young to get married. She
was my childhood sweetheart, you know. We she's but she's

(01:02:42):
out here living in l A. I haven't seen her
since we got married. Um, she's out here. Became a
really well known makeup artist. She started doing that when
I started going the road a lot. And she actually
does lots of TV and films. She has two kids.
They're probably grown up now I have That's what I
understand she's doing. She was a lovely, you know, lovely woman,

(01:03:05):
and you know it happened. As a matter of fact,
I got married a few times. But I've been with
Katherine now twenty years, so I'm I'm I'm there. How
many times you've been married four times. So the first
one is your childhood sweetheart. What breaks up the relationship
with the childhood sweetheart? The girl I met on the
road on on the on the River tour, and we

(01:03:27):
did meet her where in Detroit? Okay, play that out.
She was just backstage and I just she's sitting on
a curb. She didn't have any tickets. It was her
and thinking, her sister and a couple of other people,
a couple of other girls. So we just, you know,
just gave me passes they came in. I don't know.
That was a mistake. Not a mistake, that's the wrong

(01:03:50):
thing to say. Eight Yeah, I was. I was out
of control. I'll be the first one to admit it
it probably, but I was still very child like I
I you know, it's probably the best way to probably anyway.
Then I started really working a lot, so that was
probably early eighties. I got divorced and and then I

(01:04:11):
was working NonStop. I I started doing films out here
and did some TV. I worked on About I did
Streets of Fire with Joel Silver, who just you know,
he gave me. I was like I was a god
or something, you know, because of all the scenes and
I mean it was crazy some of the things I've done. Um.

(01:04:33):
And so I got on a film called The Running
Man and and I ended up on The Running Man
for the whole shoot. Um, and we were shooting in
Fontana on location. When I came back after the shoot,
my wife at the time was pregnant and I know

(01:04:53):
it wasn't mine. So um yeah. So that ended number two.
So that was number two. So I tell a story
of number three, Number three. That's a little bit more complicated.
But um, by the way, I still talked to number two.
Talked to number three number one that I went. I
tried to stay friendly with her. Number two number two.

(01:05:14):
Did she keep the baby? Oh yeah, oh yeah, I've met.
I met the baby. She's like thirty five years old now,
and she said, you know, she's a woman, she's you know,
I met her once, she was living out here. I
met her once. But number three, number three was was
a woman of you know, she very independent. I feel
like I'm at a therapist. She was like she was.

(01:05:37):
She was. She was in the fashion world, very high end.
She was partners with a really famous designer called Katherine Hamnett.
And I met her when I was starting the Pink
Floyd UM seven tour um when Roger had left, and
I don't know, I had I'm probably not really good,

(01:06:00):
probably not really good at being alone, even though I'm
only I'm an only child. But there was a connection
that I've never really dug weight deep down. And I
was so busy. I was just everywhere all the time,
and you know, I was flying at the top of
the of the world. I mean, you couldn't have a
better job for someone who is probably really mentally afflicted, right,

(01:06:24):
I mean I recognized that, and so I felt very lucky.
So how did you meet three had? How did it
in with three? Well, she she was David Gilmore. Wanted
to go get some clothes at the Woman's you know
that's really famous fashion design before we went on tour.
So we went up there. I started chatting her up

(01:06:45):
and then she came to a couple of shows and
I don't know, it just happened. It just happened. And
then I was living in London. Now I'm living in London,
and because she had a house in London, and it's
just I know I more at that time, I had
more friends in England than I did over here. L
a has always been problematic for me. I never really

(01:07:08):
felt at home. But while and while I was in London,
I am, I was, I continued working, had an office.
It was great. London was really very good for me
the years that I lived there. Um and then and
then UM I did all kinds of things when I
was there. UM I had, I had, I had a

(01:07:30):
good network there. And and Gabby her name was Gabby,
Gabby Schnyder. She had a daughter who was six years old.
So I became like an instant father. So how did
it end? And how did you end up back in America? Unfortunately,

(01:07:50):
Gabby was diagnosed with a brain tumor and had to
be operated on. It was ninety four when when Pink
Floyd's going down that really huge store and the operation
and until she lost her eyesight in one eye, and
and it just took a toll on all of us
and somewhere around, you know, just relationships. And then the

(01:08:15):
best way I could describe it was we probably all
didn't behave but there was. It was really difficult. It
was just really difficult. So um I left um and
and I came back here. Then how did you me?
Number four? You've been with for twenty years and oil, well,
I stayed single for a while and figuring I better

(01:08:37):
get my act together, and I kind of fell down
but then picked myself back up, um, because I was
definitely spinning out of control a little bit or a lot.
And then, um, this guy Patrick Stansfield. I don't know
if you know who he is. So Patrick cost me
up one day it says, I want to put you
on this board of directors, you know, for for the

(01:08:59):
psl N that magazine. We're having a meeting, which and
I was not in the best place, so I said sure.
I figured this wasn't maybe a good way to get back.
So anyway, so I go to the meeting and there
was this really beautiful woman sitting across me and she's
really smart. You can tell her, she's really really smart,
and I'm like wow. Anyway, so we do a couple

(01:09:20):
more meetings and then one day Patrick calls me up
and says, hey, you know, Catherine thinks you're cute. And
I'm like forty nine years old, and I went, I
don't feel cute, Patrick, but if that's you know, if
that's what she's saying, then um, okay, tell her I
think she's cute also, So then the next meeting we

(01:09:44):
kind of looked at each other, like you know, and
then she's fixed me a cup of coffee, and I
asked her out to lunch, and we've been together ever since.
Truth be told, she never said that and always just
pa to who was the matchmaker? Wow, wow, great story.
Let's go back something you said earlier though, you said

(01:10:07):
California is challenging for you. You didn't feel like you
ever really fit in friends or a problem. So why
are you living here? Well, my parents were here, My
parents are here. And then, um, like I said, I
lived in London. I had had a house when I
first moved out here, sold it. Then I was renting places,
and then when Gabby got ill, I bought this place

(01:10:29):
here in Malibu, and I'm out in a really really special,
very lucky, really special place in Malibu. Been here thirty
years now, and I just stayed. You're on the beach
just above it. Talk about the money. If you have
a house like that, needless to say, that's not cheap
real estate even back then. How did you charge and

(01:10:51):
did you negotiate or did somebody else negotiat How did
it work? That's a really good that's some managers, most
importantly probably Michael Littman managed me for quite a while,
and another guy called Michael Brokaw. And UM, I've had
some lawyers. Um, I've had I tried all that. UM.

(01:11:19):
I think back then it was just a different world,
and I think that people viewed what I did my peers.
There's a lot of guys out there that Steve Cohen
and Roy Bennett and and you know, uh, um, Jonathan Smeaton, um,
all all of us. UM. I think we kind of

(01:11:41):
started this industry that then some of these companies have
kind of taken took the blueprint, and so the money
was different. It's like kind of pioneers in the beginning,
like no different than bitcoin or something like that. You
kind of got in in the beginning, right, and that
that was my bitcoin. That's probably the best way to describe.

(01:12:02):
So it was lucrative. It was lucrative bit of what
But I can never get royalties. I was never see
I Like I said in the very beginning of the show,
I said that I'm a visual producer just like an
audio producer. Well, you know, I would see the audio
producers getting royalties because there was a mechanism. I would
see the Broadway lighting designers, set designers get royalties because

(01:12:23):
it was part of the mechanism. So I would go
to the bands and then that Sometimes it would be
me negotiating that that, you know, I'd say, look, I'm
the I'm the executive vice president of UM. You know,
I hope my audio has worked. I'm seeing it. Just
splash stuff on to the timeline. I just hope it's

(01:12:45):
going to come out all right, because I'm having too
much fun anyway. So I always thought, you know, especially
now because of all the streaming stuff, I thought there
should be in mechanism, because well, we're providing the visual
portion of the program, there should be you know. I mean,
look at Spotify. Even if you even on the streaming stuff.
All my stuff is streaming the hundreds of millions of people,

(01:13:07):
all the Pink Floyd stuff to go on more stuff,
just his stuff. I do the Empire State Building. Uh,
you know, I stuck M and M up there. I had.
I don't know how many millions of people. I there's
no mechanism for for what we do my industry, not
for the old guys like me and the guys I
just mentioned or for the young guys, we there's no

(01:13:30):
not a dime comes to us income wise, because well
that would they some people don't feel like we're worthy
that we don't contribue. I mean, I'll probably fight that
fight until I take my last breath, because to me,
there's no difference. There should be some mechanism. You know,

(01:13:52):
it's important. Okay, let's talk about technical innovation, especially in
the eighties, you know, automation things start to explode. Tell
us about some of the innovations, and tell us about
some of the innovations you brought to the market. Well
back in seventy seven when I was doing Bruce was
seventy seven. You know, I built my own console, so
I kept and I would cobble together from a few

(01:14:14):
different companies parts, and then I was recognized by this
company called tom Field Associates. And then they went on
to become well ultimately they went on to become PRG
if you track it all the way back and and
and they they were that board, the flash buttons, the
matrix buttons that they built for me. You know, they

(01:14:36):
saw how I worked, and so we actually started the
consoles that now everybody uses. I know, when they were
building the Very like console. They saw my tiny little
database I had that I was using on my macs SI,
you know, to to to run the show, and you know,
they tried to integrate that. We we you know, I
worked closely. That was the beginning of some innovation. I

(01:14:59):
used to get called on to to you know, to
consult on some of the new moving lights. But I
think the biggest innovation I did was probably in eighty
seven when I decided to use very lights for for
Pink Floyd. But I didn't The Genesis show was unbelievable

(01:15:20):
first time you see it with those lights doing I mean,
it was just But I couldn't do Pink Floyd like that.
So my idea was that, well, they're moving, they're going
X Y, so I'm gonna add Z. So I'm gonna
make these pods. I'm gonna track them seven And really

(01:15:40):
there wasn't a lot of automation back then. It that
I had to get some guy out of New York
to write the program and we built these you know,
to to actually right and they had to figure out
how to get the pods. But what I had was
when Gilmour is doing a solo, I could start to
pod on stage left, and it it could be aimed
a certain angle like that and it could track all

(01:16:02):
the way across the stage and come down right on
top of his head and then fly out again. And
so I had four of those with all kinds of lights,
and and then I had the screen, you know, um
mr screen as they called it. But the screen and
the screen had always had just park hands around it.

(01:16:22):
So I put very lights around it, and it started
suddenly became its own object, you know. And there's lots
of funny stories about all you know about all of that,
um so I you know, okay, anyway, it's just something
about the audio doesn't look right, but okay, um so so.

(01:16:44):
I mean, but inside of that, when they were trying
to teach me about the very lights, um I went
to Dallas and they were teaching me how to program.
And I remember looking at the guy and suddenly had
this thought, and I said, what are you doing for
the next six months? He goes, I don't know. I've
I said, good, You're coming on the road. And then
what I did was I went around the six other companies.

(01:17:05):
I got lasers and an operator I got I realized
I could make my own band out at the mix,
and I could conduct. I didn't need to push the
buttons anymore. I had these guys, and I had automation,
and suddenly I had this huge world. So I really
so now when you go to shows or anything, you

(01:17:27):
see have these huge production areas. Not saying that Broadway
didn't have automation, they didn't have very much of it.
But it was the idea of bringing all of these disciplines,
all of these really talented operators and designers, because a
lot of the guys ended up becoming directors and designers
in their own right. And it was the ability to

(01:17:50):
mold many different technologies together to create the picture. Um.
I could you know the first time we brought a
Jumbo tron onto a stage and it traveled on railroad
tracks because to move it was genesis. Um you know,

(01:18:10):
we can't dance store. Um Genesis bought those jumbo tron's
from Sony, you know, with a lot of money, and
then they went off after that, and then the whole
industry exploded to to what it is today. Um. So
I introduced a lot of things, never never really stuck
with it. To me, it was I just had to
keep I just had to keep it innovating. That was

(01:18:33):
my head. I just what could I do next? Like
when I got to Pink Floyd. Um, I remember Clinton
was talking about the Star Wars lasers. So I called
up huge aircraft and somehow I got to there research
and engineering department down on La Joya. They sent a
helicopter and they flew me down there, and I walked

(01:18:55):
into this room full of all these engineers because I
want at the Star Wars lasers. That's what I wanted,
you know, And I wanted him to take them out
on Pink Floyd. And so the first thing we talked
about was ionizing the air of the stadium, which would
just create this enormous bang, right, And I remember saying
that the guys, now, I don't think that's a good

(01:19:16):
idea because they've done They've flown an airplane over the
crowd at like five feet and gotten that bank. So
I what about the lasers And they go, well, there's
these fifty watt lasers that are gold copper vapor and
they're very dangerous. They split isotopes. You know in England,
you know, that's what they do for a living. And

(01:19:37):
I went, great, where do I go. So I flew
over to England and I took those on tour complete
with the f A, a tracking me um every every
tour stop, especially outdoors. But if they were that dangerous,
how did you make sure you didn't have any bad circumstance? Well, look,
I mean, all joking aside, that's safety's number number one priority.

(01:20:00):
It was. I mean, as the industry became more and
more complicated, and more technology came in and more equipment
came in, we were all aware of what was going on,
and safety was always the top of the you know,
it really was. I mean there were some things we
did that we probably shouldn't have done, you know, but
it didn't We never really endangered anybody's life, you know.

(01:20:23):
I remember the Yes Tour and nine O two on
five whatever. It was maybe the first time I saw
it where the lighting rig the trust actually lowered. Who
came up with that? And you know, it was a
phase for a while. I don't know what year was that.
That was. That was Michael Take Love, Michael take the
legend himself alive and well lit. Its So let's also

(01:20:46):
go back to Pink Floyd. You worked on the come
back of the Wall I did, so you're like the
only person who worked with both camps. Yeah, well, when
Roger decided to do it in two oh eight to nine,
beginning to or nine, I was thinking was too eight
We started talking to oh eight because I hooked back
up with Roger again in two oh six or two

(01:21:07):
oh seven because I had I had gone to the
Gilmork camp, right, so you know usually your person on
grotto with Roger after that, Well, yeah, the whole thing
was like that. But then, well, you know, life has
a funny way of presenting opportunities to one when they
have to, and I always got along with Roger. You
remember back in seventy nine the night before in his

(01:21:30):
brain I was, you know, I could be completely out
of my mind, but I got the job done with
all this automation, etcetera. Did you ever get to the
point where you could send the show on the road
You didn't have to go? I did. But what would happen?
So let's talk about that for a second, because what
would happened is the only time, the only time I
was able to when I did stuff like that, the

(01:21:51):
only time I was able to um like, let's say
that wouldn't be a royalty. But it would be another
bump in the design was when when they'd be on
tour and do exactly that I sent it on. I
I used, I used to have five shows out at
the time, all the time, and what would happen. I'll
leave somebody out there and then the manager, production manager, record,

(01:22:12):
whoever it was, would come up to the guy left
out there, and the look, we don't want to bring
Mark back. We don't want to pay him, so we're
gonna give you ten grant here, take the ten grand,
shut up and just do the show. We'll deal with Mark.
He'll still love you. And they would take the money
and then I'd never get the phone call again. That
happens a lot, and it did, you know, Okay, but

(01:22:33):
once that tour is done, they needed a whole new
production for the next show. Yeah, but by then the
bridge has been burned. I won't go back because it's
just not right. Did they call you to go back? Sometimes? Sometimes? Um,
I usually moved on to other things, and I have
some you know, there's a thing called respect, and you
know that's just not respectful. Sorry, like it just isn't okay.

(01:22:57):
So the phone is ringing enough all these years that
you weren't worried about this show. I said, the phone's
gonna continue to ring. Who cares about it? Did it? Did? Okay?
You know they have all these guild and all this
ship in the movie business and TV business. How did
you get into that and how did you interface with
the established players? Same same routine. Because when I started

(01:23:20):
doing films with Joel, Joel found me. The film was
called Streets of Fire. Obviously he's been to a Springsteen show.
He found me. He wanted Bruce to do. He wanted
to use Streets of Fire. They weren't Bruce wasn't given
any music to to Hollywood. This was Joel's first big picture.

(01:23:42):
I get up on the set, you know, I take
a bunch of meetings. I can't remember the DP, but
it was. It was Walter Hill, who actually lives down
the street from where I live. Um, and I mean,
God bless him. He was great the director and Joel
was amazing. Joel that was my first shot in Hollywood
with It was great, but it kind of worked that way.

(01:24:03):
I was an anomaly, like you know, where no one
had ever come in with moving lights, and so they
didn't know how to categorize me. I was very respectful
of the unions and the guilds, and they gave me
a pass. Just like most of the arenas in the
very beginning of the seventies, I always they do well

(01:24:25):
one or two things, and pretty much the working thing
was they saw these rock concerts as a source of income.
So what they would do is they'd have their crews there,
we'd have our cruise and we'd work together. And it
became this to this day. You'll work in walking walking
to Madison Square Garden. You'll have a full IATSI crew,
and then you'll have you know, the road crew that

(01:24:47):
is non union and we all worked together. So it
they were pretty welcoming. They wanted to learn about all
this new stuff. Tell me about the two tours or
shows that you're most I'm really proud of the Empire
State Building Um because because just because personally so, I

(01:25:09):
wanted to describe to people what was involved, say the
same kind of deal. I get this phone call from
Ron Delson Er Brickman Brickman. Ron Delson, the biggest promoter
in New York, the godfather of the East Coast UM
and this guy, the owner, the owner of the building.
He's gonna call you and you're gonna owe me millions.
You gonna owe me millions, you know, and then he

(01:25:31):
hangs up right and sure enough, but I don't know.
A week later, just guy calls me, you know, Anthony Malkin,
and we have this great conversation and and he had
decided to make the building all led and what he
was looking for, well he describes it now, he was

(01:25:51):
looking for a race car driver. And what was being
given to him were just a lot of, you know,
really smart engineers, but there wasn't a race car driver.
There are engineers a totally different discipline he wanted. And
he's a rock and roll guy. He loves Grateful day
lest prank Floyd, loves Neil Young, you know, I mean,

(01:26:12):
just yeah, he wanted he wanted that energy. That's what
he wanted. So I got hired in twelve still worked,
they're still working with him remotely. And so what exactly
did you do for those who haven't seen it, Well,
we we we We were involved in lighting the building
every evening and creating all the looks we do. We

(01:26:34):
used to do before COVID some really special shows. Um like,
but I put eminem on top of the Empire State
Building for Jimmy Kimmel Show. But it should have been
live live. It wasn't because the way TV works, it
had to be taped a week before it was shown,
and it kind of looked everyone knew what has happening.
We had two helicopters circling the building for four hours.

(01:26:57):
So Jesus Christ, I mean, on social media was like,
oh my god, they're invading you know, who's going on?
You know, I mean that night in New York was crazy,
but they should have played that more out, you know. Anyway,
But the whole idea Empire State Building for me is
was is really great because it's ongoing and we've done

(01:27:18):
some really great things there and we get a lot
of we've we've done some really cool collaborations, a lot
of really great artists, people, institutions, and you know, I
was involved in and um when they when they when
CNN used it to put the election on the building.

(01:27:39):
You know, those moments, you can't you know that those
are really historical moments. Um in terms of my their
music shows, God, that that's hard, that's that's really hard. Obviously,
Pink Floyd, you know, and and the David Gilmore and

(01:27:59):
the Roger Waters shows equally. I mean, you know, Dave,
I I stopped working with Roger Anden, but I continued
working with David in and the Pompei show for me
was probably you know, and all the Albert Hall shows
just fantastic, um, you know, really small, intimate, but we

(01:28:22):
knew what the audience was coming for. And David is
just the master. You know, he's the Buddha of all time.
The name another show you didn't do that you respect
the work of David byrne Utopia? Like whoever? I don't.
I don't remember off the top of my head who
did it. David had a big hand in it. I
know that. Just absolutely stunned. Can you name another one.

(01:28:44):
I don't go to too many shows, even before the COVID,
I don't. I didn't go to too many shows because
I didn't. I didn't want to be influenced. I just
there's something in just for me that I you know. Um,
I'm trying to think, uh god, I'm not being disrespectful

(01:29:05):
to anybody. UM. I mean some of the nine inch
now shows earlier on like let's say I'll go back
a little bit, so some of those shows I saw
which were great. Steve Cohen with Billy Joel was always great.
Love Steve Cohen. We've been buddies since the seventies, you know. Um.
Jonathan Smeaton, Peter Gabriel shows back in the early eighties. Fantastic, brilliant, brilliant,

(01:29:29):
brilliant mind Jonathan Smeaton, Um, Um, I mean I can
if I really start putting my thinking cap on things
will my brain doesn't work as quickly as it used to. Okay,
let's just go to a couple of other things. How
did you get involved with the Olympics? Hello, Mark Brickman. Hello,
my name is Peppo Soul and I am the executive
producer of the Barcelona Olympics, you know. I mean, it

(01:29:53):
was just that phone call and he says, I have
a piece of paper here, and it says and through
all my competitors, really famous TV lighting directors like Bob Dickinson.
And I think Bob Dickinson is brilliant. Loved the man himself,
and I love his work, you know, for what he does.

(01:30:15):
And they had they were all on this list, and
he said, and he reads the names down and he says,
next to each name, it says safe. And then I
come to your name and it says Mark Brickman Risk
and he says, will you come to Barcelona? And I went, yeah,
I'm in and I went and spent fourteen months there

(01:30:39):
and it was just marvelous. I turned out the stadium lights.
Usually I find the easiest thing to do is turn
everything off. Whatever was whenever I'm called into these things,
you turn everything. If you start over again in darkness,
it's kind of like painting. So my campus is dark.
It's not white, it's you and added in. But his

(01:31:01):
program what he was going to do with to really
bring that whole Spanish culture too to the world because really,
you know, Franco had left what early eighties, right, it
was like you know, I mean, it wasn't that far
ten years earlier. This was the big moment for Spain
to come into the world and for people to appreciate it.

(01:31:23):
And he was so successful and and it was really
I had so much support doing that because we turned
off the stadium lights and we just used theatrical lights
and are the big lighting manufacturer made special lights and
the whole thing was really a great, great um um production.

(01:31:45):
And my partner at the time was a guy named
Maurice Lida who was also the production manager for some
of the Pink Floyd stuff and he lives in Australia.
Now with my hero Okay, see you just clicked on it.
My all time lighting here on rock and roll, Chipmunk,
nobody else, there's enough said. The man is the ultimate genius.

(01:32:08):
He started it all, He started my brain going right.
And he's still alive and well in Australia and Mars
is down in Australia. They brought me down there to
consult in the two thousand Olympics just for a little bit.
But you have Chipmunk, Rolling Stone Show seventy two, which

(01:32:29):
one the open Pedal Flower, No, that was that was
Robin Wagner. Another two with the with the lights going
with the all the super Troopers on the back, shooting
into a mirror and coming back down and then the
Trust came down. That's it. It was seventy two on
those Genie lifts. The Trust came down, you know, and

(01:32:51):
and then went back up because they ripped all the
gaels off at the end for the encore. It was
like I saw God, right, I mean it was like
seeing God and Chipmunk, my hero, thank you for triggering me. Okay,
and Paul McCartney. You worked with Paul McCartney. Yeah, wow. Again,
I went into a very cold room. There are a

(01:33:12):
lot of people in that room did not want me
to be there. Um. I won't mention any names. I
had an inside track and and it worked. It worked,
And I think that there were two things with Paul
and Linda. I got really I got to be, you know,
part of the family for a while. And Stella and James.

(01:33:33):
James us to sitting next to me every night, so
did Stella and Mary. It was. It was fantastic. I
love I missed Paul, I really do. And unfortunately that
was one of the casualties of when I didn't go
back to London, was not working for Paul again. And
then Linda passed away, and you know, other things happened.
But there's a happy ending to this story, very very

(01:33:56):
happy ending, which was and it just which I wish
would happen with Springsteen, but I don't think it ever will.
And that's I'm a Coachella with Neil. Neil's opening the pall, wow,
I mean, and Rogers the next night, you know, which
I had nothing to do with. And then there was
who else was there was? Yes, it was Neil, was
Paul and it was Roger. So out of the six acts,

(01:34:18):
three of them were my pretty much my clients, right.
And so it was the day of the show and
I'm there early because that tour with Neil was really simple.
All white light all the time, just follow spots so
everybody can see, you know, you know, Micah and Lucas

(01:34:40):
and you know the other guys promise of the real
you know. I loved the first time Elliot showed me
the video of Neil and the boys plane in a rehearsal.
I was like, you could see it was like Lucas
is ready to kick Neil's ass on guitar, but Neil
wasn't having any part of it. Yeah, I mean it
was just that tension on the stage and and the

(01:35:03):
spontaneity was it was just it blew me away. So
I went into the meeting with Neil and I remember
saying to him, this will take two minutes, and he
he said, You've done everything. There isn't anything that I can,
you know, even think of presenting to you that's gonna
make a difference. Right now, in your life. So I say,

(01:35:24):
let's put I think it was twelve follow spots, that's all,
and every guy has to follow spots, right, and they
and there. That's it. That's the show. That's ale show.
And everyone's gonna be focused on on the music on
the span and what you're doing, like you know with
the with the young guys and and and and you

(01:35:45):
the master, right, and he went for it. So when
we got to Coachella, they had that two seventy ft screen,
which you know, we knew was because Roger was doing
whatever he was doing, right. Neil didn't want it, and
I agree with him. I said, yeah, we're gonna turn that.
We're gonna turn that thing off. Anyway, he said, well,

(01:36:06):
let's put bur lap up. It's fantastic. So we put
two of burlap. We had two screens at either end
um but in the middle it said organic seeds and
he was doing his g M O thing at the time,
white lights. The production crew hated me because we were
putting burlap in front of their highest tech, most expensive,

(01:36:28):
tweaked out screen in the world. That everybody hated us.
And so I was there early in the morning overseeing
our our analog portion of Coachella, and suddenly there's this
commotion and I didn't realize Paul's coming for his sound check,

(01:36:49):
and there's this whole scrum at people walking by me.
I was standing stage left and I remember watching it
and I see Paul and he catches my eye and
I kind of just like just like hey man, you know,
like that, and he could see he didn't recognize me.
It had been twenty five years since I'd saw him.
And suddenly the scrum stops. Michael spring Oh, the production managers,

(01:37:14):
a friend he had am I think he whispered in
Paul's ear, that's brickman. Suddenly it stops. Paul turns around,
he looks at me and he just puts out his
arms like this like you know, and you know, we
hug and he gives me this kiss and he whispers
in my ear. Man, we did some really great things.

(01:37:37):
So good to see You's it? What more could anybody
ever want? Right? I mean, just it was fantastic and
it made my you know, it's just you know, it's
just such a simple gesture. It was really cool. So
I'm a groupie. He's the Beatles, as we all are. Okay,

(01:37:57):
for the aspiring lighting designer. What are a couple of
tips you would give them in terms of doing a show?
Writing a show. Don't look at anything else right now,
you know. Just follow your heart, follow your mind, do
what you want to do. Um. Don't don't think you
have to use image and lights together. Don't think you

(01:38:18):
have to listen to the lyrics. Try to find where
the communication is. You're the one, You're the one responsible
for communicating the energy and the definition to the crowd
in the moment. So don't blind them seven you don't
need to. Don't distract them. Let them get into the artist.
The artists are the artists there. There's a there's a

(01:38:41):
reason they're up there on the stage, you know. And
the music. I mean, look, I love the way technology
is these days. I've learned so much about new music.
There's I love blockchain. I love to where the world's
going technically, technology wise, because it allows the distribution of

(01:39:02):
artists work directly to the audiences. And if you can
define that, you can figure out that where your audiences
and your connotation, you're gonna you're gonna make an okay living.
You'll do fine. You will do fine. You might not
be the billionaire with the Lamborghini and stuff like that.
But you'll do very well. I think that what's happening

(01:39:23):
right now with decentralization of of the you know, of
the and the and the economy and the way things
are going, I don't think it's a scam. I actually
believe it in it a lot. And I think for
young lighting designers now that they have so many different
avenues that they could probably create revenue streams from with
their art. Patient look at it really seriously a little differently,

(01:39:48):
you know, learn how to think. Anybody you haven't worked with,
who you would like to work with. I'd love to
work with Paul McCarty again, UM, I know that, you know,
but any body I haven't worked with. UM. I think
I always wanted to work for Madonna, but I think
I've gotten past that. UM and I and I and

(01:40:09):
I love really theatrical people. You know, I love, I
love you know. I've worked with Blue Man. I loved
all their shows. Those were just genius, genius, genius show.
I worked with Searchis Soley and they were you know,
got what you know, what what else can you say?
It's a little different now, But they they had the
pulse at the time. UM, probably somebody that I don't

(01:40:34):
know that you know, that's out there that would appreciate
at least my view of the world, you know, and
of creativity, that everything is possible, you know. Um, and
that and that they would allow me to be myself.
David Gilmore, that was what he He always protected me
with two words or three words, let him let him

(01:40:55):
be himself, that you know, and that would that would
stop everything, you know. I can't really think of anybody
off and I probably, like I worked with Hans Zimmer,
which was just one of the great thrills because working
with an orchestra and working what's such a genius like himself,
I thought that was always great. Um. I'd like to

(01:41:17):
do more of that, you know. But it's I've been
really lucky, I can't, you know. And I've talked a
lot today, so I hope I didn't aggravate anybody or
you know, Hello, You're totally you and that's what we're
looking for. So Mark, thanks so much for taking the talk. Thanks, Bob, appreciated.

(01:41:37):
Until next time. This is Bob left Sex

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