Miles Copeland

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob left Sech Podcast.
My guest today is music in Legend Miles Copeland, you know,
was a manager, as a label owner, the consummate Outsidered insider. Miles,
glad to have you here. Nice to be with you,
Bob asth we nitor you want. Okay, what's the story?

(00:28):
Was your father really in the CIA? My father was, well,
some people like to say, you know, for because it
sounds exotic perhaps to say he was a spy, but
an actual fact, he was what we would call an
operative in all the countries where he was working, you know,
whether it be Dabascus, Syria, or Lebanon or Egypt. The
heads of the country he knew that he was operating

(00:50):
from the CIA, which was really what they wanted because
they wanted a c I a guy that they could
talk to. So and an actual fact, yes, he was CIA,
but he was an operative, you know, So I can't
really say that he was a spy, although it does
sound rather exotic to say that he was. And when
did you discover that this was his line of work? Well,
I was probably I mean when when we were in Egypt,

(01:13):
I was only ten years old and he after we
left Egypt, he resigned from the CIA, and I knew
a few years after that that he was CIA, but
I didn't really think much about it. Um and I
never had any feeling that there was something wrong with
with influencing governments, let's say, because Lord knows some governments

(01:34):
do need influencing. Well, there's a rumor that your father
was involved in overthrowing the government in Syria. Was that true? Well,
that actually was true, but it was not something that
Uh had been planned in advance. I mean, as my
father used to tell the story, he said, you know,
I was having dinner with the General Zaim and the

(01:56):
Colonel Uh from the military attache American American Embassy, and
we were talking and he kind of brought up, you know,
almost like philosophically, well what would it take to overthrow
a government? And I sort of thought about it, and
I thought, well, you know, I guess you'd want to
take the radio station, and then you'd want to uh.
Well no, wait a minute, I think first you need

(02:17):
a reason for overthrowing the government, but then you take
the So anyway, they were talking philosophically, so they didn't
think much about it. But apparently the general had stopped
drinking and said finally says he could do this. We
could do this. The Americans help me, we can do this.
And he thought they all, you know, he in the
military had a she thought, my god, the guy's the

(02:37):
guy serious here? You know. Well, you know what, let
him sleep it off. He'll forget about it the next day. Well,
the next day he didn't forget about it, and uh,
he was Okay, the American is gonna help me, all right,
you know. And so he sends a telegram to the
CEI office back in Washington and saying, you know what
do we do? This guy really wants to overthrow the government?
You know, what's our position? And gets a cable back saying,

(02:59):
you know, don't mess it. You know, we don't need
this stuff, and uh, we don't mess around in foreign affairs.
And he tells the general and the general says, but
I'm going to do this. You must help me. Cable
goes back and forth and back and forth, and finally
the general says, look, if you don't help me, I
go too the Russians. So Cable goes back to Washington. Look,

(03:22):
this guy is serious. He's gonna do this either we're
with him or we're not with him, and if we
don't go with him, he's gonna go with the Russians.
So what do we want to do. Cable comes back saying, well,
you know, you're on the spot. Do what you gotta do.
So he stayed an incident which was at our house,
you know. He one night, Uh, my father says, okay,
you and your mother and the two kids. You know,

(03:44):
you're you're gonna leave the house and you're gonna go
away for the weekend, you know what, but we want
to go, just go, you know. So how we went
and uh, we come back a couple of days later,
and the house is full of bullet holes, and the
allegation had a bomb in the garden, you know, which
would planted to make sure nobody would be hurt, of course,
but this was the incident to create the the atmosphere

(04:06):
that the government had to come in, and you know,
this general had to come in and save the country
from these rebels, you know, which were of course completely
made up. So he ended and of course the general
overtook the country, and of course my father then could
claim as to being the first American operative to overthrow
our government. By covert means. But it was not a
planned thing where the CIA and back in Washington was plotting,

(04:28):
you know, they just got stuck and decided to better
go on with it because the guy was going to
do it anyway. So how many countries did you live
in growing up? I lived in Syria during that period,
and then uh in Egypt when Gamala Donasa became the
president and my father was organized but was actually loaned

(04:48):
to NASA from the CIA to organize egypt Secret and
Teller's organization. And then we my father decided to go
on his own with some other CIA guys and they
would for their own private ci A and go and
we moved to Lebanon. So I lived in Lebanon for
twelve years. So I spent probably half of my early

(05:09):
childhood and somewhere around the Middle East. And to what
degree did these experiences inform your career as a manager.
What I'm really talking about is you're the first manager
I know who took their band, in this case, the
police around the world. How did you decide to do that? Well,
I don't know that I could say with some sort

(05:29):
of definite um news or position to say, well, you know,
because I grew up in Egypt. That's why I wanted
a couple Asia. But I knew Egypt existed, you know,
I knew the rest of the world existed. And if
there was one thing I knew about, you know, marketing
and rock and roll and whatever, is that image counts
for a lot. And you know, if you look at

(05:50):
the Beatles, it's long hair, or it's you know, Elton
John Wild clothes or you know, you you go down
the list of the real big superstars, there was always
something that was grabbed your attention. It could be a
photograph or a uh something about them, you know. And
I was figured, well, you know, the police. When I
was managing the police, I had two great advantages. One

(06:12):
was there's only three guys, which means it was very
inexpensive to move them around. And not only was it,
uh three guys, but it was at a period where
having a lot of equipment was really not something that
you needed, you know, it was actually better if you
didn't have a lot of equipment. So it was a
cheap operation. We could go to place as nobody else went.
You know. The other great advantage of the police was

(06:33):
they looked good, you know, and the sting looked like,
you know, you dressed them up as an Arab, but
put him on a stallion. There's Lawrence a Rabia for you,
you know. So I figured, well, if we're gonna go
for mystique and for glamour and for photographs, you know,
and we're just a few of us, why not why
not go to Egypt and why not go to eat
India and some exotic places, because you know, you take

(06:55):
a picture of the police riding camels with the Pyramids
in the background, that's a photograph that any music journalist
who's busy trying to put his newspaper together for that
week is gonna think, well, that's a photo I could use.
And that was sort of the market it was. It was,
in a way, it was a marketing idea, you know,
but it was also a lot of fun, you know,
the kind of you know, when we went to India,

(07:16):
we dressed up. I dressed them up as Maraja maharajahs
at the Tajbaal Hotel and but it was definitely something
that made them look glamorous and a lot of people
around the world be thinking, my god, what a wonderful
you know, what a hip happening. Group. They must be.
Look look where they are. They're they're playing in India,
They're playing in all these wild, exotic places, and it

(07:36):
made them so different than everybody else. You know, anybody
could play Boston or New York or London or whatever,
you know, but Egypt that was different. Talking about marketing,
was your idea for the members that being to all
die there here blonde? I will admit that was not
my idea. However, when I saw it, I thought, Eureka,

(07:58):
look that's a look that kind of glued them together
as a as a group, just like the Beatles, all
wearing long hair or whatever. You know. It was. It
was like a glue. But they had done it actually
for a regular experiment gun commercial, and the and the
people that wanted the commercial this that we want a
group and we want them all to be blonde hair,
you know, and so they dyed their hair for the commercial,
you know, to make a bit of a bit of

(08:19):
extra money. But when I saw it, I recognized what
the value of that was. Okay, Now, these places you
took the band were places where they hadn't had rock
conscience before. And I would assume there were some bumps
in the road especially in India. What was your experience
like playing in India. Well, India was was something where

(08:40):
you know, you sort of imagined what things are gonna be,
but you get to the place and you find out
that things aren't quite what you imagine. You know, you
imagine India that big country with at least have a
p A system. Well, when I got to India, it
took me a while to find somebody who would promote
a show. But the first thing I found out, of course,
there was no PA system. The only one that existed
was for twenty people or so. So I effectively had

(09:02):
to figure away to get a p A system into India,
which meant hiring some very good carpenters who could build
the big speaker cabinets, but they had no speakers in India.
So I had to go to London to buy speakers
and fly to back to India with speakers to give
it to these these uh carpenters to stick in the cabinets.
So we actually built our own p A system for India.

(09:23):
The other thing about India that was was unique was
that we had we turned out we had there had
never been a rock concert of any size in India before,
and we hired a three thousand seat venue open air,
and uh, the group, you know, we we went out
to do a sound check because every band would you know,
three or four o'clock in the afternoon, you do your

(09:45):
sound check to make sure everything's working for the show
that night, which was gonna be at seven or eight o'clock,
you know, start. But of course the audience had never
heard a rock concert before and they were beginning to
uh come to the concert hall early in the afternoon.
So when the band started the sound check, the audience
thought the concert had started and they were missing it.

(10:08):
So they all freaked out, and we're climbing the walls
and finally broke the gates down and stormed the venue,
and before we knew it, the place filled up with
all these fans thinking the show it started. Meanwhile there
was the police just basically sound checking. Okay, And since
you've lived in Egypt, was its smooth sailing there? Well?

(10:28):
Egypt had several problems for it. First place was I
went to Egypt beforehand, knowing that you really need to
check things out in advance, so of course I went.
It was at the American University, which I figured was
a decent hall, which it was, and great, do you
have electricity? Does it work? Yeah? Okay, electricity works. Do
you have uh spotlights? Yeah, okay, there are the spotlights. Okay,

(10:53):
you've got spotlights. And so I I vetted the place
and I thought, well, okay, we're pretty together. So we were.
The first show was in India. Then we came into Egypt. Well,
I I had made a mistake or somehow the wires
got crossed. And the first thing that happened was the
equipment came in on air frase as opposed to access

(11:14):
baggage and uh, so I go to pick up the
the equipment so we can do the show that night,
and of course there's no equipment there because it came
in on the freight a supposed to excess baggage. And
I had a little fixed man by the name of Muhammed,
and I said, Mohammed, Uh, what are we gonna do
with the equipment is not here? They said, well maybe

(11:35):
it is. It a freight. So we go to the
air freight blights, which of course was a Friday, and
uh it was their their holiday there, religious holiday like
like our Sunday. And there was a guy there and says,
sunny gonna impuzzy, but we cannot help you come back Monday,
you know. I said, we can't Monday. The show is tonight,

(11:57):
you know. And uh so Muhammed, what were gonna do?
He society Sunday, I cannot tell this was embuzzyment Monday.
Cannot cannot help unless you know someone the someone in
the government, you know. And I said, well, I do
remember a guy I my father told me about and
who's the they are neighbor when we lived in Egypt.
I heard that he was a big deal in the
British the government, so I do know him. He said,

(12:19):
what's his name? I said, huss Hussan behind me. You
know this man, he is the vice but let us
thought of Egypt. He could do anything. He is a god.
I said, well, get him on the phone. Lo and
behold he does. Get him on the phone, and I
get this vice prime minister on the phone and he's
going and this is the gold letter. How are you?
How's your family, your bub, how's your father? Is all good? Everything?

(12:43):
You know? I said, yeah, it's all good. But I've
got a problem here. I can't get my equipment. It's
in it's in it's in freight and there's nobody working here,
and he says, don't I said someone immediately, no more
than ten minutes went by, sirens wailing. Twenty policeman show up.
They waived the equipment through and I'm a hero. You

(13:06):
go out and I looked at Stay and I said, sting,
that's management for you. Then that night, that night though,
of course, then I showed you just how stupid manager
early was. Okay, so we get ready and we're just
doing the sound check, you know, and I'm saying, okay,
well can you I want the spotlights on the study.
Mystificld Limn. I can cannot do this. What do you

(13:28):
mean there's a spotlights? Can you turn the spotlight on
so we can have no But there's no bulbs. So
what do you mean there's no bulbs? He says, we
have a spotlight, but there's no bulbs in the spotlights.
And I said, well, go get something. He says, but
we don't have there's none in Egypt. We have to
go to Europe to get them. What you mean you've

(13:48):
got spot You told me there were spotlights is, yes,
we have spudlights, I said, but the old bulbs said them.
He said, no, it's the bugs. So we actually had that.
We had a film crew with it, so we had
to have the sun guns and the film crew, and
that was just the start of our problems. So we
had not a lot of light for the show. But
of course then then, of course who turns up with
the chief of Cairo Police with his wife and his

(14:09):
two kids, and he's in his suit and she's all
decked out and all her jewelry and her finery, and
of course what's he wants. He wants the front row.
And I'm saying to him, so excuse me, sir, but
you know, I really don't. It's a rock concert. You
don't want to be at the front row because you
know you're gonna get bobbed by fans. Are gonna want to,
you know, be close to the band. I said, you
really want to be like, you know, twenty rows back

(14:31):
or someplace, you know, someplace safe. No, no, no, and
must have the front row, okay, I warned you. Sure enough,
one minute into the show, kids are rushing the stage
to hope places bedlam. The chief of police is fighting
people off, trying to protect his wife and his kids,
and Sting takes numbers at this and kind of walks

(14:53):
over and sticks his foot out on the chief of
police and taps him on the shoulder and says, you know,
stub that you know because he was and if that's
a huge insult in Asia. So next thing I know,
I'm standing on the side of the stage and all
these policemen and the chief of police is rushing up
to the side of the stage and they're telling me
just go he go to jail. And he taking to jail.
You know. I said, what what happened? Is the chief

(15:14):
of police and my mohammed, my fixing guy says Mr
Goblin Stickers just hit the chief of police. He's going
to be in jail tonight. You must do something, you know.
So I have to have an apology, you know. So
I waited for the song day. I walk out on
stage and I said, Sting, you just kicked the chief
of police at Cairo. He wants to put you in jail.

(15:36):
You've got to apologize. And sing looks at me and
says no, I said, Sting, for Christ's sake, you gotta
pud No. He said he shouldn't have done that, you know.
So I go back wait for the next song, and
I go back out against thing. Look, this is serious.
You're gonna be in jail tonight in Cairo, and I
don't know if I can get you out. So I'll

(15:56):
tell you what. Let me do the talking. I'll apologize
and I'll look at you and you just nod your
head like you're agreeing with me. Okay, will you do that?
It says, okay, I'll do that. So at the end
of the show, the police are on the side of
the stage. They rush out, they grab Staying and I'm
all right there in front of him, and I'm going, Mr,
I'm so saudy, and I'm remembering every bit of Arabic

(16:17):
I could think of, you know. I'm we apologize and
it shouldn't have happened, you know, everything I could think of,
you know. And then I would look at Staying and
say Sting, you know, given the sign, and he nodded
an agreement, you know. And then I look back at
the Chief of police. And so the bluff worked, and
at the end of it, the Chief of Police turns
to me and says, I don't like Zack Man, but
you are honor. I go now, and how do you left?

(16:39):
And I went up to Sting and I I went
up to stay at us at Staying, I just saved
you from a state worse than death. That was our
story of Cairo. Let's go back to the beginning of
the police's career. Legend has it that you made a
unique deal with A and M. There was no upfront money,
but you've got a better royalty rate. What really went
down there, Well, it's true I did make a deal

(17:02):
with A and M for no money and a very
high royalty rate, but it was not necessarily because I
was being so brilliant, you know, and and uh, it
was really a matter of I had no choice. I knew.
I knew one thing, and that is that the police
had very little going for them that I could go
to a record company and try to talk him into
a record deal. There was no tour upcoming, there was

(17:25):
no press, there was no fan base. It was literally nothing.
As a matter of fact, the police were sort of
shunned by the punks because they were older, and they
were not recognized by the older bands and either. So
basically the police were in no man's land. There was
nothing to recommend him except for one thing. The music
they made in the studio was great. The Chastle had

(17:47):
rock sand so I knew the music had to speak
for itself. So I figured if I went to the
record label and I said, look, you know, and I
set up a scenario where he only listened to the
music and made a judgment based on whether you're the
music or not and not. At the back of his
head was you know, what's this gonna cost me? You know,
is this gonna eat up my budget for the year.

(18:08):
What's my boss gonna think? You know, suppose this fails,
if I gonna look like a fool, all the sort
of negatives that an average a and our guy would
be having, I had to eliminate. So you only listened
to music. So I went in and I said, look,
I got nothing to recommend this group except about amazing music.
So I want to make you a deal. I'm giving
you the record for free. It's yours. You don't have

(18:30):
to negotiate. Just give me the highest royalty you can.
It's free. Now listen to the record and put on
the record. And of course he heard Roxanne and all
the songs and and that Police album was a great album.
And I bet you it was the only time he
ever listened to music without anything worrying in the back
of his mind about whether, you know, this might lose

(18:52):
his job or eat up his budget for the year
or whatever. He just listened to the music and it
was one of those things where it's like, you know,
when you got to lose, there was nothing, there was
nothing to lose, And that sort of strategy was one
that it worked. If I had asked for money, I'm
sure he would have said no. So you make a deal.
Do they put the record out in the UK? What happened, Well,

(19:15):
the British part of the deal was, look, you'll put
the single out in America, but I don't I don't
know if that ever really happened, to tell you the truth.
But they did put the single out in England. So
Roxanne came out, but it didn't really get a lot
of attention. Like I was saying, you know, it wasn't
a lot really going to the police. So I decided
that the only really way I could get something to
happen for them was to make something happen in the USA,

(19:36):
where nobody knew who they were. So my brother Ian
had had gotten a job at the Paragon Agency, which
was a booking agency. In making Georgia and being in
making Georgia, they felt them they were always sort of
feeling like they were off the beaten track, and to
get a British group or something would be something special
for them. So I called in and I said, look,
you think you can book the Police for a tour

(19:57):
of America. I don't care wherever he played, just can
you get us some shows? And he said, well, it's
gonna be tough. You've got no record deal and there's
nobody supporting you and all that. I said, yes, there's
only three guys in a ROADI literally we can. We
can get by on a station wagon and a few
hundred bucks a night. We can make it work because
Laker Airways has got seventy five dollar tickets to America,
so it's only gonna cost you if you want the

(20:18):
bucks to get him there? Can you get me shows?
And he said, well, I'll try, and lo and behold,
he gets five weeks of gates all in dumps. I
mean the worst venues you could think of. I mean,
CB g VS is famous, but it was a dump.
You know, the Rat Club in Boston and well named,
I might add, you know, and they played places where

(20:39):
you know, who knows what they were. They were disco
tags or whatever. But he managed to get shows. But
the funny thing was the show that he did in
Syracuse was in a cold night and only four people
showed up. I mean, after all, it was a group
that we've ever heard of. Why should they show up,
you know, some club and uh, four people show up

(21:01):
and the police decide, you know, well, you know what,
four people actually bought tickets and here in the Syracuse
Modius there we are, so you know what, let's go
out and give him a great show. So how they went.
They did a killer show. And one of those four
people turned out to be a DJ at m i
Q University back in Boston who had a radio show

(21:23):
and he was so named with a group that would
walk out and do that that he started. They gave
him the Rock Sande single that they had got they
had pressed up in England, and he started banging out
on the station and next thing you know, some other
stations picked up on it and it became a regional
hit in the in the whole Northeast. And uh, in January,

(21:45):
Jerry Moss, who was always looking at you know, the
Emma Vane and Records started looking at who was looking
at Billboard, as all the record people do. They look
on the radio charts in the back pages of Billboard magazine,
which is the sort of the music business magazine. And
he saw that one of the biggest imports was the
Police and it had A and M Records next to me.
So he knew me from the past that we called

(22:06):
me up and he said, Myles, is this uh my band?
Is this Police that says A and M Records? Does
that mean it's an America too? And I said, yeah
it is. He said, well, you're you're the top ad
on on Northeast radio, you know. I said, well, let's
do something. He said, well, let's get the band over
here again. We'll put the record out. I said, fantastic.
So I called my brother Ian again. I said, I

(22:27):
in okay, the record companies now behind us, get us
a tour. Can you book us another tour? And sure enough,
about two months later, the Police head off to America
again for our second tour, this time with A and
M banking. And that was really the start of the
Police in America. But it was that, you know, I
I often get asked by people you know, what was
the most important show you ever did? And they would
imagine I would say something like, you know cha stadium,

(22:49):
you know eighty thousand people that sold out in a
few minutes. And I said, no, no, no, no. The
most important show the Police ever did was the four
people in Syracuse on that first tour. It just so
happened that one of those four people happened to be important. Okay,
So the legend on the Police is they did not
like each other, sometimes stronger hated each other. He was

(23:12):
that true? And b was that true from the beginning.
The story of the Police really is is this is
that it was? It was an interesting dynamic. Uh, there
were three threes. There was the three brothers, story, Ian
and I, each playing a different role. Stewart created the Police,
He came up with a name. It was his idea.

(23:33):
He always thought it was his band. Sting wrote to
hit songs, and it was the look and and he
was a great player, and he was sort of the
peacemaker between them, you know, so I think there was
there was There was always some sort of let's say,
I wouldn't quite call it animosity, but Stewart looked at
as his band. But he also knew that Sting was

(23:53):
really the driver of it. Uh. I as the manager,
Ian as the agent, we all had a big part
to play. So that was it was a combination of
forces who were making the police happen. It wasn't single
e Stewart or it wasn't singlely Sting, you know. So
a lot of a lot of the thing about that
they were hated was exaggerated because they made a better story.

(24:14):
I remember the first documentary on the police, you know,
I was, I was interviewed and they asked the same question.
He was asked, to the police really hate each other?
And I said, well, no, actually there was. There was tension,
of course, you know, because in a bandit's happening, and
as crazy as it was, you know, yeah, there was tension,
but no, there was no hatred. There. There was sort
of a uh there were times like, for instance, when

(24:38):
Stewart got so excited he sweeds Sting a little hard
and he cracked his ring. You know, that was not
because he hated Staying. That was because he was so excited,
you know. And I said, but you know, I so
I sort of downplayed the whole idea of the police
hating each other. Well, when the documentary comes out, I'm
hardly in it, and I'm looking at the documentary and
I'm seeing guys in there that I didn't even know

(24:59):
who see need to be experts on the police, and
they were saying thing, oh yeah, you know, sticking story,
hate each other, and oh yeah, there was an each
other's throat, and I'm going and I went to the
I went to the MTV people and I said, what
are you doing. That's not true, and he said, well,
it makes a better story. And the fact of the
matter is, I'm probably the least. I knew more than
anyone other than the three band members, but I'm in

(25:21):
the least in the video because I was not telling
what they wanted to hear. It's a better story that
they hated each other. You know, later in later years,
there was probably a bit more animosity because when they
did the reunion tour, I mean, I I hear this
that Staying wanted to change some of the songs and
change the chords and Stewart didn't really like it. So

(25:41):
maybe there was more animosity later on. But during the
police years, you know, from from what I saw was
their tension was there was there you know, naturally there
would be, but there was no hatred. So how the
three Copeland brothers that have a father and intelligence and
all end up in the music by a complete fluke,

(26:03):
you know? And uh, I mean it's it's one of
the things that I mean, I just I just wrote
a book, my memoirs, but I actually just today placed
with a publisher. Uh and uh so it'll be out
in three or four more months, you know. And I
explained this, but it's one of the curious stories that
um you know. Here I was, I knew nothing about

(26:24):
the music business, and I met a group inn in
Beirut and said, look, we think you can help us.
And I go to London and on my way to
report to the U. S. Army because I just got drafted,
and they came to me and said, we want you
to be our manager. I said, well, I'd love to,
but crazy idea, but I'm drafted, you know. So I
went off to America got rejected by the U. S.

(26:47):
Army because I have high arches, you know, I wouldn't
even trying to get out of the army, but they
rejected me. I was one of two thousand people, the
only one to get rejected. So I felt, in a
way sort of bad, except that it was Vietnam time
and all my friends were trying to figure out way
to get out of the army and I had inadvertently
got out of it. But I sent it a cable

(27:09):
back to London saying, well, I'm out of the Army.
I get a cable back from this this group that
I was I ended up managing. They said, God bless
your feet. Anyway, the group became Wishbone Ash, which was
the first group I ever managed, and it was really
a lark. I went back to London. I didn't know
what I was gonna do. I I had imagined I
was gonna be two years in the army and they said,

(27:29):
we think you could help us, and you know, why not,
you know, and I just said, what the hell? And
next thing I knew I was in the music business. Okay,
you were learning on the fly. You're obviously a smart guy,
but you must have made big mistakes. Well, I think
you know. One of the great lessons of life is
you can just learn. You can learn things and mistakes
maybe even more than successes. You know, I sure made mistakes.

(27:52):
But the one thing I knew that I know what
I like, So it was not something where I was
always looking over my shoulder to say, well, you know,
how do I know it's any good? Well, you know,
my my view was I like it, so it must
be good, you know. And that was really it was
as simple as that. And it was not a time
where it was let's say, there were no classes and

(28:14):
university to learn how to be a rock and roll manager,
you know, so most managers were learning on the fly,
you know. And who's to know what makes something work
and something not work? You know? This has always been
a mystery, you know. And it's not just money, you know.
There are a lot of people that have tons of
money try to make something happen. It doesn't happen. But
I didn't. I knew what I liked, and I guess

(28:35):
I didn't have the feeling that I was worse or
better than anybody else, so why not And I kind
of just went out and did it. And being in
England where a lot of the attitudes in England at
that time where you know, I would call it a
glass half full country, you know, where I look at
a glass half full and I would say it's it's
that Sorry, I would I would put that another way.

(28:57):
There a glass half empty country, whereas I was a
glass half full country. We could look at the same glass.
They would say, well it's empty, and I would say,
well it's full. So I basically just said, well, I
don't know what I'm not supposed to know, so well,
let's just go out and do it. And I would
dream up ideas, and with one of my first stunts,
I went to trying to find a show. I had

(29:20):
no idea how to get a show going, you know,
and so I down the road from where I was
staying with my parents. There was a college that had
put on shows, and I went down there and called
them up and said, look, could I get an opening
slot for the show? And I was kind of put off,
and so I decided to go to the college myself.
So I went to the college. I met the person

(29:42):
organizing the show as one of the students, and I said, well,
I've got the opening act on the show, and they go, okay,
we we don't know about that, but if you say
so so. And then I went back to the group
and I said, look, just show up because the college
stakes you're on, you know. And then headline group they
showed up and they thought the college had book the
opening act. So the college thought the headline acted about

(30:06):
the opening act, and the headline acting got to college
of book the act, and meanwhile, I wish I would
ask for how to do the show, and nobody said
anything wise, and of course we didn't get paid, but
they played a show. So it was stuff like that.
He was just doing it, you know. And uh that
that kind of got the ball rolling. Did you get

(30:27):
Wishbone ash their record deal? Yeah? How did you do that? Well?
That was something where we did. I. I was so
desperate to get shows, but I really had no clue
how to do it. Uh. And I saw in the
back pages of one of the music papers that there
was a little book and it said the Booker's Bible
and for twenty five pounds, which was the reason why

(30:50):
money at that time, because the average of wage was
something like nineteen pounds that that period, you know, so
a week. So I thought, well, a booker's Bible which
had every name in it. So I called up the
phone number and sure enough that with the guy that
answer it says, yes, it's got every phone number you
could possibly want. All the clubs and all everybody the
books shows, and I this guy sounded kind of crooked,

(31:14):
you know, and I thought, well, you know, I'll think
about it. And he said, look, i'll tell you what.
I'll show you how the book works. He's paying the
twenty five pounds. I'll show you it works. I'll come
to your house and let's get a phone, and I'll
show you how the book works. And I thought, well,
you know, I'm desperate. I don't I have no clue.
And the band's rehearsing and getting ready to do shows
and they're gonna be asking me soon. Was our first

(31:35):
gig and I had no gigs, you know, So I figured, well, okay,
I'll bring this guy over. So I get this guy.
Of course he looks just like the crook that he
sounded like on the phone, and uh he booked some shows.
Of course, first show comes around and off goes the
group to the show, and of course there's no show.

(31:57):
And uh I called him up and say, look, you
there's no no no club where you said the was,
you know, Oh, you've got the wrong address, and he
gives me another address. The group goes to that. Of course,
no show. So now I'm thinking, okay, all the shows
in the book that he had booked. Because we had
like eight shows in the books, they almost be funny
or something's wrong. So I started calling all the places.

(32:20):
Sure enough, everyone was like, no, we only booked discos,
or no we hadn't. We don't have music groups here anymore,
and everyone was a notion. So I thought, oh my god,
Now I was so embarrassed. But I actually decided, you know,
I mean, cold calling is a terribly hard thing to do.
Just get on the phone and started calling somebody, you know,

(32:41):
And I decided, well, I was so embarrassed that I
knew that when the group came over to the rehearsals
that I would have to tell them the bad news
that all the shows they thought were in the books
were gone. So I got on and I started using
this book well and the whole. A lot of the
numbers were good, and I started booking. I actually booked
three shows, one of which Wasn't a show which was

(33:02):
opening for Deep Purple in a place just outside of London.
And Richie Blackmore, the guitarist of Deep Purple, saw wish
Bone Ash I thought they were pretty good and men
and mentioned it. The producer friend of his who then
called me up and said, look, I'd like to produce
your group. So that's how I met Derek Lawrence, who

(33:25):
ended up producing the first Wished One ash album. So
it's really Richie Blackmore from Deep Purple, who who had
put his producer on it and who called me and
what did I know, but sounded like a decent producer,
and he said he could get me a record deal,
and he did. He got a deal with a record
And why was it the band bigger in the US?

(33:47):
I think really it was cause they never really wrote
that hit song and their vocals were never really killer.
They were a good workman and like group um, and
their disadvantage is that they, you know, they really did
make a hit in America. You could have a lot
of bands that are great, but if they don't have
that hit song that gets all over the radio, it's

(34:09):
never really gonna make it, you know. And wish One
never really had that killer song. I mean, they had
some songs that worked in the worldands for instance, or
this town or that town, but overall, it just never
was an act that had that winning song. And the
vocals were okay, you know, the musicianship was great, but
that really wasn't enough to make them a big, big deal.

(34:30):
It made them an okay deal, you know. But I
learned a lot, you know. It took me out across
the country. I did shows all over America. I got
involved with other groups, so I would say they were
a learning experience, and uh, I valued that and it
it came to be a great bunch of lessons and
I applied to the police in later years. So how

(34:50):
did you get involved with the Climax blues band? That
was a band that I had heard records of them,
and they had a great guitar player and they had
great Volk goals. And I was in England obviously, and
I had seen them advertised, but they were abandoned. Had
been around for quite a while, but it never seemed
to be getting anywhere. And so I basically as a lark,

(35:12):
I said to them, Um, you know, I called him
up and I said, look, I'm I'm a manager and
I would like to represent you. And I know you've
never been to America before. I could take you to
America and uh, you know, you don't have a manager,
and I think I could help you. And they were
they basically put me off and uh. I kept calling
them and they kept putting me off. And then one

(35:33):
day I saw that they were playing in a local
club in London, and I called him up and said, look, well,
let me meet you in person at the club and uh,
let's see if we can work something out. Well, I
went down to the club. There's a place called the
Marquee Club on on Wardor Street in the West end
of London, and I'm there and of course they don't

(35:54):
At the time they were supposed to meet, they didn't
show up, and I waited an hour and they never
showed up. So I said, the hell with it, the
hell with them. I started walking back to my office
and I'm walking down the street and just as they
get to the street, corner of van comes whizzing by
and I almost hit me, you know, and in the
band was the Climax blues band. They thought I was

(36:16):
sitting there on the street corner waiting for them to
pass by, that that was that keen and on signing them.
Actually I had said to hell when I was going home,
but they waved and I realized it was them. So
I walked back to the Marquee Club and they were
Now they were like Okay, this guy must be real.
He was so keen, honest, he waited on the street
corner for us. So we made a deal. I became

(36:36):
the manager. So were you involved with them when they
had their big hits like I Couldn't Get It Right
and who I Love You? Yeah, they couldn't get it right?
Was really Uh. They had delivered an album and they
had no hit on it, and I said to them, guys,
you know I can make you much bigger than you are,

(36:58):
but you've got to have that hit song and I
don't hear it on the record, so you've got to
go back to the studio. And I put up a
bunch of names that have songs that I thought they
could cover that might work. But they were against that,
and they said, well, I think we have one, and
they went and they wrote Couldn't Get It Right, And
we went into studio and cut that. When I heard it,
I realized that was the song that we needed, and
of course it was. It went to number three in

(37:19):
America and I think a number five in England and
that that was the first big hit they had. Um
and uh. So I I do take some credit for
the fact that I pushed them to come up with
the hit song, and that did um project them into
a bigger marketplace. But by that time I was always
having my own troubles financially and we ended up partying ways,

(37:44):
and later on they had the song I Love You,
which I was not part of. Okay, tell me more
about these financial troubles. Partly because wish vawon Ash was
a group that couldn't really I mean, we're not going
to come up with a hit song. They were really
going to make it live. And most of the bands
I was working with, including Glimyss bands were great live bands,
where you know, you're dealing with an audience, and what's

(38:07):
live is a bit different than than a hit single
on the radio, you know. So I figured if I
could make the bands succeed through big concerts, then that
would get them to be big enough, you know, that
would break them wide open. And one of the markets
where we were had not really broken yet was Europe.
And so I dreamed that this idea that if I
could put Wishbone Ash on with some other big acts

(38:30):
and make it look like Wishbone was a headlighter, and
we go do all these festivals in Europe, and I
go spend the money to hire you know, Blue Red
and John McLaughlin and all these various acts that we
were working with. We were thinking about that I could
make Wishbone Ash and Climax and the other bands I
was working with look good, and in concept it was

(38:51):
sort of a lot of pellucidt before a lot of pelluction. Conceptually,
it was great and it worked. The problem was a
lot of the technicalities of it were difficult and very expensive,
and pretty soon I was cleaned out of money. I
just had didn't didn't have the money to finance something
like this. I mean, we we hired two planes and

(39:11):
we go load up the equipment on the airplanes, you know,
and I was thinking, in't that great? We got our own,
our own planes. You know. The pilot shows up, realizes
the plane super overweight with all equipment. He says, get
that shut off my plane. You know, that was the
start of our troubles. I had to hire trucks to
carry the equipment to the next show, and one thing
after another. Then lou Reid didn't show up. So we're

(39:33):
trying to find out what happened to lou Reid, and
uh turns out he was in Australia, you know. So
I caught his agent, who was William Marson the time,
and they said, well we we we've got a we've
got a phone number for you, but uh um, you
have to deal with it yourself. So I finally get
him in his hotel room and in uh Australia, and

(39:57):
his friend Rachel answers the phone said, uh uh hi,
smiles Copeland. I wanted to know when lou Reid's gonna
show up, because you know the dates are in a week.
We needed no when we can pick him up at
the airport, and only well, uh, lou uh doesn't know
about the tour. He said, well, what do you mean
I know about the door? Is it gonna talk to Louis? Well,

(40:18):
he's in the bathroom. I said, well, I'll wait, and
Rachel says, well, he's been here for three days, so
it's gonna be a lot of weight. But but what
do you mean three days? Well, he's been in there
three days and he won't come out. So I knew
by then we were in deep trouble. Of course, lou
Reid never showed up. He had fired the agent beforehand, apparently,

(40:41):
so I had to scamper around and find that we
we finally found a Continua Turner to do the shows
in his place. But of course we're trying to book
them at the last minute, so of course the price
tag went went up. Anyway, I got cleaned out, I was,
I was on the verge of bankruptcy, and that was
really the start of me. I mean, I lost everything.
My brother's store was in curved there, and Climax Blues

(41:04):
Band eventually left, Wishbone left, everybody left because I had
no money, you know. But that was when the punks
were coming along and nobody paid attention to them, and
they had no money. So I knew what I was
doing and had no money, and they didn't know what
they were doing and had no money. So we were
we were like destined to be together. So what was
your next move with the punks? Well, I realized that

(41:25):
they were you know, you couldn't help but pick up
the British newspaper, which was the National Press, and the punks,
you know, the sex pistols, the class they were all
over the newspapers, you know, but the music press just
shunned them, you know, And I kept thinking, well, you know,
they're all over the press. And there's all this craziness
and nobody pays attention to them, and everybody says they're losers.

(41:48):
You know, maybe I can help, you know. And it
just so happened that Malcolm mclair and the manager of
the Sex Pistols, had an office above where I was working.
I had gone back to an old office friend of
mine that had loan be his office, and I said,
you know, can I come into your office? And I
needed a place to work, and Malcolm McLaren was upstairs,
so I'd go upstairs and say, uh, Malcolm, I've been

(42:10):
reading in the papers and no one will book the
sex Pistols. But you know, I called a friend of
mine at the Marquee Club and he'll book the sex
bistess Um. Sorry, miss, I'm sorry, we can't do it.
We're the pistols are busy that day. So I'd go
back downstairs. I called the Marquee Club. I said, look,
you know, give me another day. So three or four

(42:31):
times I did this, and third, four or fourth time
I went up to Malcolm. I said, okay, I got
like three more shows and could you do any of these?
Finally he jumps up and starts screaming at me, don't
you get it? I get more pressed, saying they can't
get gigs, that you're screwing up my whole rock, get
the funk out of my office. So I'm kind of

(42:51):
like stunned. I mean, but the papers saying you can't.
No one will book the group. I just booked them,
and I'm walking out. I had a call from a
promoter in Holland saying I'll book the sex Pistols. So
as I'm walking out, and I said, okay, Malco, I
get it, Okay, but I do have a gig in Holland.
I don't know if you'd be interested in that. He's, oh, hug,

(43:12):
I'll do that. I said, oh, okay, well it's so
I'll do Holland. He says, but I can't go, so
you don't have to take the group. So I I
take the sex Pistols. I do the first shows in
out of England in Holland at the place called the Paradisoh,
and uh I go off with Johnny Rotten and the gang.

(43:34):
This is before sid Vicius joined the group, and uh
I go off of the sex Pistols, which she, of
course gave me a great credibility with all the punks.
Next thing I know, Billy Idol and all these punk
bands are knocking at the door saying, well, could your
book shows for us? You know, So before I knew it,
all of a sudden, I was the guy you went
to if you wanted to book a show for a

(43:55):
punt group. So Susie and the Batshees and Billie Idols
was a band called Generation X at the time. And
then it was a magazine called Sniffing Glue, which was
a run by a guy named Mark Perry. And he
comes into the office to do an interview with when
one of the bands, and nextly I know, he's moved
into the office, so all of us. Before I knew it,

(44:17):
my office was Sniffing Glues office, And of course that
meant all the punt groups came to came there. And
next thing I know, I'm in the punt world, you know,
which was fine. Are you a manager, you a promoter?
What's your rong? A bit of everything? You know, with
with some some I'm managing and some I'm a promoter
and some I'm a you know. And then I had

(44:37):
friends in New York. I called an old manager friend
of mine who was a publicist that I'd used with
Wishfune and Climax called Jane Friedman, who was working with
Patti Smith and John Kale and and UH Television. And
I called her and said, Uh, You've got some mats
over there that might be interesting in England. You know,
I think I can get some shows for them. So

(45:00):
so I brought Blondie and Television and tour them in England,
and John Kale got him into England and UH had
him produced Squeeze, who I was who had just signed
for management, and I got him to work with the Police,
but they didn't get on at all, so then that
didn't work. But basically, before I knew it, I was
I was becoming the kind of the main hon show

(45:22):
in the punk world in England. So I started a
label with Mark Perry called Step Forward Records, and UH
I had Squeeze on Deptford Fund City Records and Stewart,
my brother Stewart and Wayne County, the Electric Chairs and
different bands on Illegal records. And I was in the
punk world doing independent records and that's really how the

(45:45):
Police got going. So how did that work out financially
for you? Well, because you could make a record for
eighty pounds, you know, and then I could I'd get
in my car and I drive to a record store
and they'd buy the records. You know, they give me
the cash right there, you know. So so I was
literally in the record business where not only was I
in the studio making the record, I would then take

(46:08):
the tapes to the master room to get the master done,
and then to the plate maker to make the plate,
and then the label maker to get the label and
the sleep you know. So I was doing the lot,
but you could make enough that they would pay for
themselves because punks didn't really know who was who at
the time, so the records either to the record store,
so they would kind of you go into the store
and say, well, here's my latest release, and they'd buy

(46:30):
five boxes, you know. So it was like, well that's great.
You know. Well it was great for about four or
five months, and then finally you'd walk in and I'd say, well,
here's my lass and said, okay, let me have a listen.
How many how many fans have they got? Whoops? The
bubble at burst? You know, but it was enough to
get going, you know, did that carry you through to
the police. Yeah, it carried me through where we were.

(46:51):
We were handling the cramps and and and uh the
fall and Sham sixty nine and see Court, all these
different kind of bands. Uh, So we were sort of
buzzing around. It was all sort of small time. But
in in London, you know that you could be kind
of small time and be successful, you know. But with

(47:12):
the police, you know, nobody cared. And I found the
studio or a friend of mine found a studio actually,
and I could record the full album for a thousand pounds,
which you know today would be worth five six thou dollars.
So if we record the first Polate, which meant you know,
that's why I could offer it for free, you know,
because it really didn't cost very much. If it had

(47:32):
been a two hund three hundred thousand dollar deal, well,
of course, you know you needed money to do that,
but the fact is that nobody needed money. In those days,
you could record for very little. Nobody was looking. You know,
a lot of the bands could hardly play, you know,
I don't when I first saw the Clash, I wasn't
sure they knew that those things at the top of
the guitar were for tuning the strings. You know, okay,

(47:54):
but going to the police. What's it like working with
your brother? Well, I guess in some ways it was strange,
but in some ways, you know, I'd give him his
first job, you know, which was one as a tour
manager for Joan Armor Trading. He had just gotten out
of college, and I said, look, I've just taken on

(48:16):
this act. Would you be the tour manager? And off
he goes to America with Joan Armor Trading, and then
later he comes. When he comes back, I had just
signed up a violin player by the name of Daryl
Way who had a group called Curved Air, and they
were looking for a drummer. And cut a long story short,
you know, he Darrell figured well, as Stewart's in the
band and he's Miles's brother, Myles will probably pay more

(48:39):
attention to it. So Stewart gets a gig and Curved Air,
and Curved Air goes out and it is reasonably successful. Well,
they were another casualty of the big fatal tour I
did in Europe, you know, the Star Treking tour, which
was a disaster and put me near bankruptcy. So that's
when Stewart decided that you know, all this high falutant
bands with lots of equipment and Rhodies and knows what.

(49:00):
Let's strip it all down to the simplest possible thing.
And that's when he came up with the idea of
three people and one roadie and very little equipment like
all the punks basically, which meant that for a guy
like me who had no money, you know, you could
actually do And they were not precious about having to
be in big famous studios or whatever else. So what
I said, I can record your album for a thousand pounds.

(49:23):
They were gaged. They had nothing to lose. And then
what comes first? Urga music War I r S. I
r S came first because when I when I got
to England with the police and they started happening, Um,
I had a lot of bands back in England were saying,
well what about us, you know, we we want to

(49:44):
have a little shot in America too, you know. So
I figured that I needed to find a way to
get their records out in America. I mean, I was
bringing them in imports and selling them some of the
imports stores, but that really wasn't satisfying any of the acts.
So so I went to Jerry Moss and I said, well,
I figured A and M is already sort of on

(50:05):
side in a sense. I mean they were they were
sort of fans in a way. And and since the
police didn't cost him a lot of money, and uh,
they kind of figured I was onto something, but they
didn't know quite what yet. So I went into Jerry
Moss and I said, I'll tell you what. I've got
these bands in England, and I'm gonna make you the
same kind of deal I made for the police in

(50:26):
the beginning. I don't need your money. I just need
you to put the records out. So I'm gonna give
you the records for free and you give me a
label unless your own sales people decide, you know, how
many they're gonna press up. Let them vet the thing.
I mean, it's down to you not you know, so
there's no risk. And uh he said, okay, sounds fair enough.

(50:48):
Let me hear the records. I said, ah, I said,
that's that's that's the only CAVEAT said, you can't hear
the music. I said, you have to put out whatever
I give you, But your own sales people can tell
you how many should press up. You know, if they
want to press up five, no problem, but you can't
listen to music. Because I knew if he heard the music,
if he heard the buzz Cox and he heard Chelsea

(51:09):
and he heard he would say no, so lo and behold.
He said, okay, I'll give me the deal. And then
I went out and signed the buzz Cox. The good
news was the bands like the buzz Cox and later
the you know, a lot of the lot of the
punk bands could not get deals in America. So if
somebody came along to him and said, look, i'll put
your record out in America, but I can't pay your money.

(51:31):
I'll give you a good royalty, a lot of them said, okay,
that sounds good to me. So I was signing up
bands for next to nothing, and I didn't need a
lot and the police were beginning to make a little
bit of money at this time, so I didn't need
a lot of money to launch a label. And uh,
you know, the Cramps had a had songs they had
already recorded. The buzz Cox. I picked up the record

(51:53):
that had already been recorded in England. Um, and I
kind of went down the list and picked up bands
that nobody else was interested in. They couldn't get deals
in America and they ain't M gave me a label
and my first employee. As another sort of example is
my first employee was somebody that had just gotten fired

(52:14):
actually from the A and M College department. And I
knew I couldn't afford any money, so I said, I'll
tell you what. I'll make you vice president of the label,
which for a college kate it was like a big deal.
But I can only pay you a hundred bucks a week.
I figured all his friends would think he was crazy,
but he didn't and he ended up becoming a big,
big deal and U record business. So who was it

(52:36):
was a guy named Jay bo Berg, you know. But
it was really a matter of making things so cheap
that the answer had to be yes. I mean, that
was part of my sales pitch was, look, if you
make the answer an easy yes, you're likely to get it. Yes.
If if Jay had said to me, well, I need
fifty tho dollars a year salary or I'm not doing it,
I would have said, well, hell were you know, I'm
not hiring you. You know, if Jerry, if if I

(52:59):
had gone to Jerry Moss and said, look, I got
all these acts in England and I need a hundred
thousand dollars to launch a label. He was said, get
the funk out of my office. You know, if I'd
gone into the A and M guy in England and said, look,
I got this big, great band, the Police, but I
need X, you know, they would have said, sorry, mate,
no deal. You know, so I I'm a lot of
the best deals I ever made were for no money

(53:19):
up front. But that opened the door. It made it
easy for somebody to say yes. And what were the
first records that got the notice of A and M
that were on I R S. Well, actually, after the
first year you would have thought, yeah. I mean, the
bus Cocks did twenty five thousand albums, which made actually
made a profit for A and M. You know, not
a lot, but at least it was a profit. You know,

(53:42):
the Craft sold a bit, and uh, the Wall of
Voodoo and whatever, you know, but none of them are
really big hits of any course. So Jerry Moss calls
me into his office to Miles, sorry to tell you this,
but let's close the label. You haven't had a hit.
You put out eight records and they've all nobody. They
haven't any hits. I saidn't been Jerry, Uh, did you

(54:02):
make money out of I RS of the first year?
He said yeah, well but not a lot, you know.
I said, yeah, but you made a property right He said, yes,
that's true. I said, how many deals have you ever
done in your career in the music business? Unless you
remember this is a guy that had the Carpenters and
Peter Frampton and huge list of acts, one of the
most respected labels in America. I said, how many deals

(54:24):
have you ever done in your career in which the
first year you made money on the on the deal?
He said, well, actually probably none. I said yes, but
you made money on my deal, didn't you. He said yeah,
But now I said yes, And I said, let me
ask you another question. I said, how many records does
the normal acts have before they really break big and
become a major act. He said, well, it's usually the

(54:46):
third album. And I said, well, I put out eight records. Yes,
but everyone was the first album of the act. None
of those acts have got the album three. He said, yeah,
you're right. Okay, I'll give you another year, so I
r S carried on for another year. At the end
of that year, we signed The Go Goes and shortly thereafter,

(55:08):
The Go Goes went the number one in the US charts,
the first girl group to ever have a number one
album in America where they played the music themselves and
wrote all the songs. So it was our first number one.
It was the biggest album of the year. It was
a momentous event. Actually in Showtime just had a documentary

(55:29):
at on the Go Goes actually, which kind of goes
through the the the importance of that record. But the
funny thing about The Go Gos was, I was the
only person at any of the shows willing to sign
this group. And was it directly done by you? Yeah?
I I signed him, And uh it was not. I

(55:50):
mean there was money involved, but it was not not
a lot. I mean I couldn't have afforded the major
deals that people were doing, you know. So they had
to be reasonable because they had there was no place
else to go. Their manager had was was had had
come and got to deal with me, and I said, look,
I want to sign the group. She went back to
the only other label that had registered you know what

(56:13):
looked like might be interested, which was a Lecture Records,
and Elector said, no, we're not signing girl groups. So
she had no place to go. She came back to
me and said, okay, we'll sign with you. And I
went in and negotiated the deal and it was, you know,
more than I wanted to spend, but a lot less
than they thought they were deserved. And uh, I signed

(56:33):
the group, and uh, I mean to me, you know,
five girls who sang, who played well and had energy
and were enthusiastic, and that just seemed like a great
marketing think to me, you know, and how bad could
it be? Of course, I had no idea the album
go to number one, you know. I figured, you know,
top forty be good, you know, but it just seemed

(56:54):
to me a winner. But all the other labels went
by the rules. They said, well, there's never been a
girl group that had a big hit record, so we
don't want to side a girl group then never even
heard the music. And that was sort of how I
built I r S. I. I went with what I
listened to, and I thought, you know, that's good, I'll
sign it. And who decided that Richard Gonnerer would produce

(57:16):
that record. I decided that I had met Richard when
he was producing the clim X Blues band, and he
did the Blondie album, which I toured in England. So
I had known Richard from the Sire Records days, and
I knew he was unlike the average producer in that
he was kind of new school and that he had

(57:38):
just done Blondie. But he was also a songwriter. He
he his his career started as a songwriter, so I
knew he knew the mechanics of a hit song. And
I felt that Go Go has had songs, you know,
and he just seemed to be the right sensibility for me.
And uh. I talked him into doing it at a
price much us and he would normally get. But that's

(58:02):
all I had. Really, I didn't have the money, you know.
I said, Richard, can you do the album for this price?
And he wasn't sure, and I said, well, let me
send you the group and I think you're gonna like him,
you know. And he did and uh, and he recorded them,
but of course he went over budget, and he went
about seven thousand dollars over budget. Calls me and says Miles, uh, uh,

(58:22):
I'm over budget seven thousand. I need you to send
me the money. And I said, Richard, I'm sorry, I
don't have the money. And uh, I said, I said,
you better hope the record sells, because that's the only
way you're gonna get your money back. So luckily for him,
the record sold okay. And then how does urga music

(58:45):
were the movie come to be? Well, I was at
the time becoming the I guess I R S and
the Police, and we were sort of at the bandwagon
of the you know, at the front of the vanguard
of the whole new music scene. So when Michael White,
the producer, had this idea about doing a movie, he

(59:06):
called me up and said, would you be interested in
h helping me produce this movie. I want to make
a movie about all these great, fun little groups that
are going on around the world, and it's just gonna
be a movie about you know, we just fold each
of the groups. There's no real storyline or whatever. And
I said, well sure. You know, for me, it was
another way I was figuring, you know, I want to

(59:26):
get exposure for these people, you know, because the radio
was still not totally on board yet, you know, and TV,
MTV hadn't started yet, and you know, anyway we could
get exposure to me was hey, if you if you
if you'll get the exposure, Hey, I'm your guy, you know,
so I said, sure, I'll help you. And of course
I roped in the Police and all the bands I

(59:48):
was working with, plus all sorts of other bands, you know,
to give it credibility. We got as many bands as
we could. So ERG was basically Michael White had the idea,
and he got the money together, and I got the
bands together, and you got the record. Yeah. I got
A and M to put the record out. I didn't.

(01:00:08):
It became an A and M record. I mean again,
it was there was some money involved, and at the
time I didn't have any money, so I gave it
to A and M. Let's go back to the police.
Police are relatively unique in that every album was bigger
than the previous one, and they were all successful during
this run. Did you ever go back to A and
M and renegotiate? Uh? Yes? And no? Okay, first place, Uh,

(01:00:34):
your first statement is incorrect. Okay. In America, okay, the
first record went out and did very well. The second
record was released in America and did three quarters of
what the first one did, so it was not as successful.
In England. The opposite happened. The first record was released
in England and just almost disappeared without a trace. The

(01:00:57):
second album went straight to number one and it was
complete bedlam in England. Okay it was you know, we
had three hit single, three number one hit singles in
a row. So England and Europe was completely different to America.
America was a slow build. It wasn't until the fifth
album that the Police had a number one record in
America and that was became the Synchronicity, and you know,

(01:01:19):
that became the biggest album. But the second album was
not not the biggest, uh. It was was about well,
I think the first album went out did like half
a million. Second album that, you know, three hundred thousand,
you know, it wasn't it takes time to build America,
you know, and but in England it was quick. The
second album just went gang busters crazy, you know, and

(01:01:44):
in Europe was saying the same a lot of around
the world. So the police were really bigger around the world,
faster than they were in America. So you had to
have a different strategy in each part of the world,
which is part of the reason why I went around
the world with the police, because I knew that those
photographs to do well in places like You're up Japan, Australia,
whatever it is, it would help in America, but in

(01:02:05):
America it's really you know, you're battling station by station
by station by station. You know, as part of the
problem of our system in America, you know there're how
many national radio stations are there? You know, well, you
know there aren't really you know, so it was a
louder Okay, you could be big in Boston, but you'd
be unknown in l A. You know. So America takes

(01:02:27):
this time, whereas in England you get on the BBC
and you've got the whole country day one, you know,
so a lot of European countries in the same way.
You know, you have one national station pretty much covers
the country, whereas in America it's a it's a much
slower building. Yeah, so what about renegotiating. Okay, as far
as we renegotiated, but of course, um after the it

(01:02:51):
wasn't until the second or third record though, well, actually
the second record became huge in England. And I had
a lawyer who was who was a very famous lawyer,
caller Groupman, and he always figured, well, you know, his
famous quote was, it's not about the money, It's about
the money. So his view was, if you could renegotiate,
go get the money. They albou the royalty, you know,

(01:03:14):
just get the money. So it wasn't long before, you know,
we went in and renegotiated, and I think we probably
renegotiated on every album, you know, to get a bit
more wealthy points. And sure we got higher royalty points
and we got more money and all that, and the
police did very well, you know. But often I think
back and I think, well, what really is the smartest strategy,

(01:03:36):
because there was an opposite strategy which I was uniquely
aware of, and that was the R. E M strategy.
I signed R E M for dollars because my brother
Ian had met them and down he wasn't making Georgia
and they were in Athens, Georgia, and he told me
and he said, look, you gotta sign this group, you know,

(01:03:57):
And so I signed him, you know, and they built
a lot of fans in the in the company, and uh,
every record did more than the last that correct. Next
record was you know, seventy, next record was a hundred
and fifty thousand, and they kept creeping up and every
advance would go higher. And as we began to realize

(01:04:18):
this was a group that was going places. You know,
I would they call him in the office and speak
to the manager and say, look, we'd like to give
you more money and uh per record and increase your
royalties and uh in return, you know it, give us
a couple more records at the end of the deal.
And their response was, well, look, we're fine. You know,

(01:04:39):
we got enough money. We don't need anymore. We're happy
with the deal as it is. So you know what,
we'll just do the deal and we'll go through the
contract and at the end of the deal, we'll come
to you and say, well we're open now, and you know,
we'll wait for an offer from you and from the
open market, and we'll see what happens. He said, but
you know, we love your company and you know we're

(01:05:00):
open for anything. You know, but no, we don't need
so I couldn't renegotiate. So the next record went out
was bigger, and you know, we got to the last
album and I'm thinking we're gonna lose r E M.
You know, so of course trying to renegotiate. Look, we'll
even give you, we'll back date the royalties, you know,
we'll we'll give you back your masters. You know, No,

(01:05:22):
we're fine, We're fine. We're fine. Meanwhile, like where is
the police? Renegotiated every time, and then Sting when I
was managing this thing, renegotiated his contract every time, and
you know, he made more and more money. I made
more money, you know. But then R A M go
off and the deal's over, and they come to me
and say, well, the deal's over. We love your you know,

(01:05:44):
we love I RS. So we're going to the marketplace
and you can make an offer like everybody else, and
we're gonna go with the best offer. So the money
went up and up, and you know, I got to
a point it was three million, and it's like that
was about as far as I could go. And I
went to Jerry Moss and he said, well, I'll help you.
I'll put up a couple of million, you know. And

(01:06:05):
the group comes in and says, well, we've just been
to Warner Brothers and they're offering more than that. And
I went back to Jerry and it said, Jerry, can
you we're gonna lose R. E M. Can you up
the offer? And he said I could. We're at five million.
I mean, we can't go more than that, you know,
and they want they want their their masters back and said,
I can't do that. So I brought the managers back

(01:06:27):
in again. And they're very honorable guys. I have to
admit they were really good people. And they said, look, Miles,
we've just been back to Warner Brothers and here's what
they just told us. And then here's here's the letter
contract and they said, whatever Miles offers you will pay
you double. And I said, guys, I looked at that

(01:06:50):
paper with incredutibility. I looked at that thing, and I said, guys,
here's my advice. Get out of my office right now,
go straight to Warner Brothers. Signed that deal before they
changed their mind. And I gotta say, that's the best
deal iver Seed and guys, congratulations, I'm proud of and

(01:07:14):
they left. They went to Warner Brothers and they signed
the biggest record deal in history. And then again when
that deal expired and all their rights returned and they
resigned again. They made the biggest record deal in the
history of the music business. And I have to say
that now when I look back at it, and I say,
the Alan grouping method of hitting him every renegotiate, every

(01:07:36):
deal and up the money and whatever. Versus the R
and D r M deal. R E M made more
money than the police, a lot more because they ended
up with total freedom to get all the rights of
back to their masters, and it just ended up being
a phenomenal deal. They actually did do it historically, the

(01:07:57):
biggest record deal ever. Okay, as a manager, how much
do you charge? Uh? In the case of the police,
we were all on it together, so we we we
split it four away, so everybody made and out of
I gave part of it. I gave my I gave
to a partner who was with the police every single
day on the road, so I was making less. But

(01:08:21):
the management commission was The management commissions historically go from
fift Some managers take as much as and it really
depends on what the manager's offering, and it depends on
the negotiating position of the group, all sorts of things. Well,
you've managed a lot of bands, do you commission the

(01:08:43):
recording budget? Do you take from the net on the road?
What kind of deals do you I think you can't
really record from the recording budget because the band doesn't
receive that. I re commissioned what they get. Okay, I
don't commission um money that goes to recording studio whatever

(01:09:04):
on the on the concerts. You know, I I commissioned
the profit of the concerts, you know. Okay, do you
still get paid on police records? Yes. And one of
one of the things I was very precious about was
to say, look, I am not into renting myself as
a manager. If I'm gonna roll on my starta fleaves

(01:09:27):
and fight for you guys, we're all in this together,
so let's be in it all the way. I'm not
gonna be simply working for you for five years and
then I get nothing, Although nowadays some acts think that
that's fair, you know. So if some act came to
me and they were already successful so that I could
bank the money, you know, and then it was like

(01:09:48):
a no brainer I could. I could say, Okay, so
you're gonna pay me. I'm gonna automatically make X million
dollars a year, so okay, you know what, after five years,
you're free to go on your your own. In that case,
I would say okay, because there's no risk I'm gonna
make money. I've heard of a manager saying well, okay,
I'll manage an act and I would make it. You
paid me a million dollars a year and I'll manage it.

(01:10:10):
I'd say, that's not a bad management deal because you're
making a million dollars a year and have you're only
doing it for five years. Well okay, but the police
nobody wanted the police. It was a pure risk. I
invested in the first album. I paid for that first album.
I paid for that first tour. Okay, so I invested.

(01:10:30):
It's something which had almost everybody said it was a
no hoper, but all four of us were in it together.
So that was really why I kept my rot. Did
you have paper with the band? Yeah. Eventually, after after
we made the record deal and the record went out
and started successful, we made we made a deal and
that's when they said, well I have to, you know,

(01:10:51):
have a partner. And I agreed. Actually out there was
only fair. I mean, I've always been someone that agreed
that you you've got somebody good working with, you give
them a reward more than just a salary, which is
why I gave a percentage of the record company to
j Bowberg. I gave a percentage of Police. Most of

(01:11:12):
the companies I've done business with, I've always given one
of the key people in the company a piece of
the action, so that they felt that it was more
than just a job, that it was their like And
that's always worked for me. I've never been afraid to
give part of the you know, the business away. Now
A and M was ultimately sold to Polygraham gobbled up

(01:11:34):
becomes part of Universal. Have they ever approached you to
buy out your royalty stream? Okay, they came to me
when when the I R S here was coming to
a close, Jerry called me in and said, look, would
you be interested in selling the label? And I said, well,
I'm not opposed to it, except that I'm not gonna
just sell it. What I would do is will make

(01:11:56):
a financial deal, but I want you to exchange I
R S sharfs A and M shares, give me shares
of A and M, so we're all in this together.
And he agreed. He said that sounds like a reasonable deale.
Of course, I wasn't expecting. I mean, A and M
was a lot bigger label than I RS was, and
I wasn't expecting to walk away with half the label.
But you know, five ten percent of A and M

(01:12:17):
would have been worth millions of dollars, you know. So
a couple of weeks later, I go back and said, okay, um,
you're ready to make an offer. So what's the offering is? Well,
I can't actually give you shares because we're a sub
chapter S corporation, and that means I can't give you
shares in the company, but we're prepared to buy you
and he and he pulled out some daughter figure which

(01:12:39):
was really just not very interesting to me, and I
got so angry I stormed out of the office. And uh.
Of course, Jerry and I later became very good friends,
and in some ways I wish I had figured some
way to do a deal with him, because when we
went to m C A was really not quite the same.
And then we went to m I and whatever whatever.
You know, we became the corporation and we really didn't

(01:13:00):
want to become. But it was a lesson. I mean,
I learned a lot of lessons along the way. You
know what what the corporate world really is. You know,
when IRA started and when the police started, we were
flying by the seat of our pants. We had nothing
to lose. Everything was cheap. I could be crazy. I
could sign crazy acts, and I signed a lot of
crazy acts, you know. Um, but they were ones where

(01:13:23):
I could afford it, you know, and the ones that
if if they didn't work, too bad, you know. But
it was fun on the way, you know. Um. Whereas
when you all of a sudden part of the corporation
and they're talking millions of dollars and whatever, they want
to see hit records, and they're not interested in whether
you have an act that's cool or not. They're interested
in whether you're selling records or not. And that's quite

(01:13:44):
a jolt for someone like me, you know, to be
thrown out of the world of doing something this hip
and cool, and you know you're you're doing it for
the for the love of the music, versus you have
to make numbers or they're gonna fire, you know. So
that's okay. So who owns the Masters of I RS today? Well,

(01:14:05):
now it's all owned by Universal And how did that
come to me? Well? Universal Body and M Universal Body,
m C A UM Universal Body, am I. You know.
So I ended up selling I R S E M
I UM because we needed the money and E M
I made us a pretty nice offer. And they were

(01:14:27):
busy trying to build their their their business and I
looked at it and said, well, you know, the business
has changed. It's not as fun anymore. And you know,
we've been at it long enough and about time that
I made something because I never made anything out of
virus at the beginning. You know, Um, I had staff
that were getting paid, but I wasn't. You know, it
was a labor of love basically, if I was making

(01:14:48):
money managing the police in staying you know, so I
never really thought about money. But when we sold the
E M I, they ended up buying the label, and
then of course Universal buy C M I. And they
owned the Beatles. You know, they owned Frank Sinaga, they
owned I R S, they owned the Police, they owned
the lot. Okay, you're on both sides of it. You've
been a manager, and you've also cut royalties, meaning you've

(01:15:12):
paid royalties. Traditionally it's an opaque system and the labels
don't pay a hundred cents on the dollar. What can
you tell us about that, both in terms of what
you paid and also trying to collect. Well, you know,
there's like every single deal, there's two sides to it.
I would say that since the record business, it's sort

(01:15:36):
of like everybody says well, nine out of ten acts failed. Well,
nine out of ten acts were financed by the record companies.
So let's say the act fails and they got an
advance of two hundred thousand dollars. Okay, So the record
company gives the act two hundred thousand dollars, They spend
a hundred thousand making the record, and they pocket a
hundred thousand. Record goes out in bombs. Record label lost

(01:15:58):
two hundred thousand dollars. The act made money for a
short time, so the labeled was a loser in that deal.
Now one out of that one out of ten succeeded. Well,
from a business standpoint, the label is thinking, well, that
one that succeeds has got to pay for all those losers.

(01:16:19):
So obviously we can't pay a hunter. But you know,
we can't pay like there was no losers because they
don't know who's gonna be the winner and who's the loser.
So in most record deals they have to figure that, Okay,
we can pay a royalty to the act, or a
fifteen percent royalty or attention, whatever the number is. Okay,
But he gets up to about you. You're getting to

(01:16:41):
the sort of upper reaches of the big superstar deals,
you know. But then they've got to do marketing. They've
gotta pay for the staff, they gotta pay for buying
records onto the radio. All the amount of money that
it costs to make a record happen. So I would
argue that record labels in many cases, or in most cases,

(01:17:01):
lose money on an act. Yes, they make money on
the winning acts, and they do so because it helps
pay for the loser acts. And I've known loser a
big big winner acts that says, well, why should I
pay for the losers? And I'd say, well, you know what,
You're right, But then again, who was to know you
were a winner? You could have just as easily been
one of those losers. Let's assume you're a winner. And

(01:17:24):
the contract says ex royalty. Traditionally labels don't pay a
hundred cents on the dollar on that. Well, they don't
pay a hundred cents on the dollar because they gotta
pay for the pressing. No no, no, no no. When
we get to the net, okay, and we look at
the contract, it says, let's just assume teen percent royalty.
The net net net is a million dollars. I should

(01:17:45):
get a hundred thousand dollars. Okay, it seems like the
record company doesn't pay that hundred thousand dollars. Hasn't that
been your experience? It really depends on the company what
the deal is going to be. I've never I've not
had a problem with I mean, I didn't have a
problem they and am they paid. We did. We did
audits on labels, so we did find money, but we

(01:18:06):
didn't find very much, and a lot most of it
was accounting mistakes. Okay, there are there have been some
labels have been been crooked, you know, And that's just
the fact of life, you know. And and the reality
is their accident crooked and they're labels that are crooked.
And believe me, I've seen both. Okay. But when you
look at the finances of the record business, you realize

(01:18:27):
that a lot of money is thrown away, and a
lot of it stupidly, to tell you the truth. Um.
And that's the reason why a lot of the deals
a lot as good as it should be for the
winner acts because the labels are losing on the losers.
They gotta make it on the winners. And a lot
of the labels also, one of the things I learned
when they got d M I is that a lot

(01:18:47):
of the executive salaries are whopping salaries, you know, way
higher than it should be. And that the the salaries
of the executives, I mean, they're more interested in the
shares and the salaries and there are you know, they
they want to up their fees because they want to
break some act. So they bury the loser acts. And
they waved the flag saying, look I I signed so

(01:19:08):
and so you know. So I have a mixed feeling about,
you know, whether deals are fair or not. And I
would have to say, having been on both sides of
the deal, I've seen things that are unfair on the
record side and not seeing things that are unfair on
the act side. But nine times out of ten, it's
the act that makes the money and the record label
the loses. Okay, do you foresee the police breaking up

(01:19:32):
and how do you end up as the manager's sting? Well?
I think Sting was smart enough to know that, you know,
it takes a lot more than you know one guy
writing songs and putting a band together. You know, you
need an organization behind you. And he knew that I
was good at what I was doing. And he also
knew that I was good at let's call it thinking

(01:19:54):
out of the box, not being stuck in some kind
of rules, you know, and he wanted to break the rules,
you know. And uh, in the case of the police,
none of us really wanted the police to break up,
even Sting, I mean, because it was kind of like
the Golden Goose. So if you remember back, nobody really
made an announcement, Okay, the police are broken up. Now
Stings solo, it kind of like, well, we're not really

(01:20:17):
saying the police broke up, even though we kind of
think they have. But Sting is gonna do a solo
record and maybe he'll do another police album. We don't
really know. And it wasn't until Andy Summers did a
solo record a couple of years later that he had
as a publicity he kind of said, well, really, the
police are kind of broken up, you know, But we
always kind of hit it. None of us wanted to

(01:20:39):
say definitively the police are broken up, because it was
kind of like killing something that was an asset. Why
if you don't have to, um, you know, a lot
of people knew, I mean, Sting knew, I kind of
knew that Sting didn't really want to do The Police again,
especially when his solo career had happened. Um, what did

(01:21:01):
I want to go out and announce it? No? Okay?
What's the thrill for you in the process? Is that
the music itself is the marketing, is the ride? What
turns you on? And how's you doing this? I don't
know that I would put my finger on one thing,
but there is a kind of a thrill in taking
something that everybody says is a loser and making it

(01:21:26):
a huge winner. There's there's a lot of fun in
that in a way. It's but but then again, that
make it seem like I'm saying, well, I want to
go out and say I told you so. Well, It's
it's not really that. There is a kind of a thrill,
you know when I when I when we did The
Police and UH at a London show and I hired
a half track to drive us. We we did an

(01:21:47):
opening show with Hammerson palis Amage with Odian for three
thousand people, the right upmarket, cool venue across the street.
We decided we go a little more punky with a
stand up venue called the Hammersmonth Palais. I figured, well,
you know, to get across the intersection. We should have
some kind of cool image. Let's let's get an army
hat track and we'll put the band in the back
of it. We'll drive across the street and look kind

(01:22:09):
of cool in the photographs. Of course, when we went
out of backstage and we got in the hat track
and we drove out in the intersection, it was complete bedroom.
There were thousands of people are Luckily I had hired
a hat track, and we couldn't have got across the street,
you know, because there were thousands of fans and they're
all screaming and yelling and wanting to get a piece
of the police, you know, And that was thrilling, you know,

(01:22:31):
to see people just were going crazy for something you had,
you were helping making happen. That was great, you know.
I mean, there were there were other times, like I
was invited to be to give the keynote speech at
the New New Music Seminar in New York. And the
first couple of ones had a big, kind of small
three or four hundred people. But this was one that
which I had heard it was gonna be kind of big,

(01:22:53):
and there was like three thousand people there and I've
brought out. It was at the Hilton Hotel in New York,
and I came came out to do my speech and
looking out at a bank of people, of three thousands
of people, thinking, wow, you know this is big. You know,
I knew my speech. I walk off the stage and
I'm I'm walking to the side of the door, and
this girl comes up to me with a tape in
her hand and looks at me and say uh, and

(01:23:17):
she fainted right in front of me. I'm thinking, you know,
my first in it was that I didn't touch her.
I didn't touch her, you know, like she fainted. And
I realized after she and she was coming so close
to the person that she thought, by some magic could
make her a big superstar. You know, she had her
tape in her hand. She just fainted right in front

(01:23:37):
of me. You know, she was so overcome to be
into my presence. You know, that was a shock. You know,
I'm just some guy, you know, and here's this girl
fainting in front of me, you know. And I remember
um sort of a similar experience. You know, when I
went out to introduce the police at Shade Stadium. You know,
eighty thousand people as me even a bit more, you know,

(01:24:01):
and uh, I'm doing the introduction. So I walked out
on stage and the minute I walk out, flash bulbs everywhere.
The place was electric. That was screams, and I got
ladies and gentleman this time, and the place went the
zirk that at the roar of the crowd. I mean,
it was so powerful. I did my introduction and walking

(01:24:24):
up the stage and I was shaking with it, just
the energy of it, you know, And I thought to myself,
oh my god, look what it's done to me. I
was on stage for a minute. Those guys are gonna
be out there for an hour and a half. What's
it gonna do to them? And you know, something people
forget is that they went out there and they were

(01:24:46):
dealing with I mean, people fainting and people going crazy,
and I mean just the mediac this of it. It
was unbelievable. I mean one of one of the funny
stories that at that show, you know, everybody was showing
get on stage, and at one point the security guy
asked me if I could stay by the stairs because
everybody is trying to get up, and he was like

(01:25:06):
losing losing it, you know, And I said okay, I'll stop.
So overcomes the manager of Joan Jett, who has been
one of the opening acts, and a big burly guys
coming right behind him, you know. And the manager comes out.
But I know what he's gonna ask. You said, Miles,
you know, do me a favor. You know, Joan Jets
here with her mother, and you know our parents can
can you put them on stage? And I said, look
at the fire marshals up there right now, everybody and

(01:25:29):
their mother. The police have got all there. I don't
know what I know. If I put anybody else up there,
they're gonna close the whole show down, you know. And
he says, I understand, I understand, you know, but anything
you can do. And I said, believe me, I'll do
what I can. You know. He walks off. This big
burly bouncer comes up and goes takes my hand and
sort of, I know, Mr Copeland, I know what you're

(01:25:49):
gonna do. What you're gonna do, right and I and
he takes his hand and walks to and I look,
there's a twenty dollar bill in my hand. The guy
at timpt me. But to what Joe Jett other stage
with what bucks? You know, so I go backstage the band.
I say, guys, you will not believe what just happened.
I'm going back to get them to bring them out
on stage, you know. And I said, they said what

(01:26:10):
I said? I said, Joe Jet's magic came up with
some bouncer comes up. I just got tipped twenty bucks
for putting somebody on stage. So Andy Summers said up
to me and says, okay, give us our share. So
I have to give up five bucks this big bid
the Stewarts five to Andy, and I get five bucks,
you know. So they were and they're looking at it, going,

(01:26:31):
that's great, we just make five bucks with the show,
and out they walked, you know. Okay. Traditionally or not traditionally,
but a great number of managers end up going inside
two labels. Were you ever offered the gig? Where you
ever tempted you want? Did you want that? No? Not really?
I mean I R S was my label. So in

(01:26:53):
the way I had I was inside. I was inside
E M I because we sold I R S, D
M I, and so I became I was part. I
realized what the corporate world was was once a year
they would bring all the label heads together you know,
they would have you know, Chris Lists and capital and whatever.
We would all have to do our presentation for the year.

(01:27:14):
And my I was very good friends with the head
guy at E M I, who was the guy named
Jim five Field. And after the presentation and we'd all
all good art you know, talking about acts and all that,
he would leave the room and the accountants would come
in and they say, Okay, your target this year is X.
You make that number, you get your Christmas bonus. I
don't care how you do it. You can fire everybody

(01:27:36):
and cut your overhead or you're gonna have a hit record,
don't care. That's whatever you gotta make. You make that number,
you get your Christmas bonus. You don't like that number,
you don't get squatted. And we're sitting there at the
end of the thing thinking, you know, what are we
gonna do? Well, of course you gotta figure some way
to get your Christmas bonus because that's all you're gonna
make that year, you know. So that's the corporate world.

(01:27:58):
You know, this whole idea about you know, artists label.
You know they care about the artists and the music
and the art nonsense. Wait till the accounts walk in
their own it's the numbers, it's the share value. And
that was a world that I was really not going
to function well in. Now. J Boulberg, who by this
time and you know who was was with me in

(01:28:18):
the label there. You know, I said to him at
the end of it, I said, look, you know, I'm
not gonna last year very long. And I'll bet you
knowing you am I either as I R S. They're
gonna close down Chrysalis, They're gonna close down I R S,
They're gonna close down Version, They're gonna close down these labels.
Why would they want so many labels? If I were you,
you're a lot younger than I am. You you know
your way around these companies. If I were you, I'd

(01:28:40):
go out and look for a job right now before
they fire you, because you know, no one's gonna hire me.
They're gonna think, why would Miles take this job? He's
managing Sting and making all that money with stinging the
police and they have all this They imagine I'm doing
all this great stuff, you know, where Shay was just
working for I R S. You know, so I said, Jay,
do yourself a favor, Go get yourself a job while
you have a job, And I think he was kind

(01:29:02):
of upset about it, but sure enough he takes my
advice and he goes off, and a few months later
he ends up as president of MCA Records. And of course,
of course, a year later, what happens. The university closes
MCA Records, and he's that of a job, right, but
he survives. The history of the music business is littered
with people who had great fortunes and blew them. What

(01:29:25):
happened with all your money? Well, I if I could
go back and do it over again, I'd have more
money than I have now, for sure. You know. I mean,
I did blow money on things I shouldn't have done
it on, you know, But thankfully I did do enough
stuff that made money. When I sold IRIS Records, I
made money. You know. I bought a place in a
big about a castle in France, believe it or not,

(01:29:46):
you know, which is appreciated in value. You know, I
have my royalties from the police. You know, I do
have money, but I'm not. I'm not flushed like I
used to be. I wouldn't walk around and say, you know,
I'm a billionaire or whatever. You know, But I'm living
in Fine, you know, and a lot of it has
to do with the fact that, you know, I'm getting
rewarded four things that I did years ago, just like

(01:30:07):
Sting is, and just like Andy and Stewart are you know,
we all got our royalties to things we did thirty
years ago. Uh, And I think that's right, you know,
we should, you know, because you know, I went through
a lot of sacrifice, just like Andy Somers did, and
Stewart and Sting, and we all sacrificed to get what
we we have, and some made more than others. Of course,

(01:30:28):
Sting made up like a bandit, and uh, thankfully he
wrote great songs and he deserves every penny he's got.
And a lot of the great artists do you know.
But sure there are those that blew their money. Um,
and thankfully I was not one that blew all mine.
So once keeping you busy now other than writing your memoir, well,

(01:30:48):
actually writing the memoer was was quite interesting. But I'm
very interested in politics and what's going on today. I'm looking,
you know, with kind of fear at what's going on
in America. And but you know, I'm having grown up
one of the you know, you asked very early on,
you know, what was it like, you know, growing up
in the Middle East. Well, one of the things that
does get into your mind is, you know, what's the

(01:31:09):
position of America in the world, and what is the
politics of the world. So politics is very much a
part of what you live and grow up in and
places like Lebanon and whatever. You know, And uh, I
can't help but remain interested in politics and what's happening
with the country and where the future goes. And um,
that's something that you know, I'm I watched stev every day,

(01:31:31):
just like Donald Trump does, you know, wanting to see
what crazy stuff is happening. You know. But I'm also
working with guitar players, so I always liked they work
with Steve i, Umnodle, Bettencourt, Zach wild Y, Moustein, I
worked with Kenny Waite, Shepard, you know, guitarists. I really
loved the guitar and what the guitar does. Um, and

(01:31:53):
I love I love musicianship and stuff. I still listen
to records, you know, I still listen to a lot
of Middle Eastern stuff. As a matter of fact, I'm
not married to one particular kind of music, but I'm
interested in what's going on in the world, you know,
and the human predicament, you know, I'm interested. I'm sitting
here in California looking out it as you must be
looking out at smoke, you know, uh, the environment, you know,

(01:32:15):
Where where am I? What are my kids going to
grow up to be in twenty years, you know, and
what's the world gonna be? So I think none of
us can escape from that fact. Um So I would
say my my vision now has become I mean it's
always been sort of slightly political, but much more so
now than it has been in the past. So, needless

(01:32:36):
to say, the music business has gone through a tumultuous
change in the twenty first century. And I would also say,
as someone who's been around in the era where you
had your heyday, music drove the culture in a way
it does not today and is not quite as important,
even though they're big acts, etcetera. What do you think
about music's place in the overall culture today and what

(01:32:57):
do you think about today's music business this Well, I'd
say the music business has changed a lot. But you know,
a couple of years ago I sat with Jay Boberg,
who was actually had had gotten the was running a
chairman of a company that was doing digital stuff. So
I asked him, I said, you know, what, what do
you think, you know, with the Spotify and the world

(01:33:20):
of digital and does that mean that all the royalties
that I'm getting from the police and the old stuff
that I did over the years, you know, that means
he's gonna be dissopated. And he said, well no, he said,
just the opposite. And I said, what are you talking about?
He said, well, you know, he said, what's really happened,
he said, is that now even though you're not making
a lot per play, you're talking billions. So he said, remember,

(01:33:45):
you know, you go back twenty years, were we ever
making money out of Africa? No, it was all piracy
and you know you'd never get a royalty check from
anywhere in Africa. He said, Now, if somebody wants music
and gabon or what you know, pick pick a country.
You know, Molly, you know they have their phone and
they want music, Well they can get it on their phone,

(01:34:05):
even if they're paying two cents a song. You know,
at least it's something. So he said, now we're actually
getting royalty east from Africa. So he said, multiplied Spotify,
where you know, two or three years ago, maybe you
were getting point zero zero zero one cent a song
play multiple times ten billion. Now you're talking real money. So,

(01:34:27):
he said, the likelihood is, even though the record business
went into a huge slum when the Satisfy and and
the Spotify, a lot of these digital platforms were starting,
obvious is I think the arc is gonna go back
up again, where those royalty streams will now be meaningful
because there's just so many people on it. And he said,
the funny thing about the youth today is the figure

(01:34:50):
it out. Paying nine bucks a month to listen to
whatever you want, whenever you want it is a great deal.
It's a lot better deal than in the past, where
once a month you get to buy one record for
fifteen bucks and you only get to hear that one record.
You know, you own the record, he said. But you know,
nine bucks a month, for ten bucks a month, whatever

(01:35:11):
it is to get spotifyces you own everything all the time.
He said, that's a great deal. It's a lot cheaper
for the average kid then buying one record a month.
You know, So, he said, when you think about it
that way, he said, the whole generation of this thinking
of things in a different way. And you know, you
look at things like Uber and also you know a

(01:35:32):
lot of other businesses they're really thinking, well, wait a minute,
owning something doesn't have quite the same fields it used
to owning a car. Why, you know, with all the
you know, you gotta buy tires, you gotta you getta
license it, you gotta you know, have repairs, you gotta
buy gash you got well, you know, Uber is pretty easy.
You know. So a lot of those sort of ways
of thinking, you know, uh, that ownership as a way

(01:35:56):
that you used to influence my generation or your generation,
they now think of in a different way. And will
that change everything in the future? Will maybe? So you know, um,
I think that in terms of you know, what I
said to him was the time to start a record label?
He said, Well, no, he said, because the problem is,
by the time you build up enough of a catalog

(01:36:18):
to make any money, you spent so much money doing
it that you'll never make it back again. So the
way to make money is do what universal did you buy?
E M I. They've already got the catalog you spent.
You buy it for three or four million dollars billion.
You fire everybody. Now, all that money goes straight into
your system, which is already set up digitally cause you

(01:36:41):
maybe a few more people, and all that money just
flows in with no cost to it. Whereas E M
I had all the costs. Now they've got none. They
got no rent, they got no pressing, and they got
no nothing. You just clashed in. So universal now is
making doing phenomenally well because they lost all the they
have E M I, but with no cost to me.
Am I. Well, Miles, this has been wonderful. Thank you

(01:37:03):
so much for your insight in your history. You're certainly
one of a kind. Thanks for doing this. Happy to
be here until next time. This is Bob Left sense

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Bob Lefsetz

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