Paul Janeway

Lead singer of St. Paul & the Broken Bones.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Leftsett's podcast. My guest
today is Paul Jane Way of Seeing Paul in the
Broken Bulls. Paul, you have a new album. Tell me
about it.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
Oh, well, we're really excited. Uh, it's it feels kind
of like for us, kind of a refresh or renew
kind of thing for us. We've this is our sixth record,
and uh we've recorded it at Fame studios and muscle shows,
which you know, we've always had a connection with to
that area. Some of the guys from the band are
from there. Uh, some of the guys in the band

(00:43):
lived there, so we've always kind of had a connection there.
And we're really excited. I mean, like I said, we
felt like it's, like I said, it's our sixth record,
so we kind of felt like one through five we
kind of whatever book we were trying to write or
try to prove through ourselves or whatever it was, that's
kind of over. And now it feels like kind of
a renewed, refreshed thing because that and that's why we

(01:03):
went with the self titled record, because it felt like
the renewal or refresher.

Speaker 1 (01:09):
What's the songwriting process for the band.

Speaker 2 (01:14):
It's it varies. We've done it many different ways. Uh,
you know, we've done it. When we first started, it
was sitting in a room and working out the songs
right and maybe something will happen. And we kind of
got away from that just with technology and you know,
it's just easier to do to do bedroom demos and
build it from there and you know, all different qualities.
But we thought with this record, we were like, all right,

(01:37):
let's get back in this. Let's let's get back in
a room and play. And so we did. We did that,
which was great. Then we also I was working on
another project with a guy named eg White who ended
up producing this record, and me and him in London
ended up writing a couple of songs that only a
couple of those ended up on the record as well.

Speaker 1 (01:59):
So how do you no Egg White? How did you
end up working with him?

Speaker 2 (02:03):
So I have I have a solo deal with Records
as part of the Columbia Sony team and uh. And
so the band was kind of in a lull of
you know, we just weren't doing much and so I
was like, okay, I'm going to be an open book

(02:24):
instead of instead of turning everything down, which was my tendency.
I was like, I'm going to be an open book.
I'll go write with people, I'll go try anything, and
if I you know, ultimately, if I don't like it,
I'm not going to use it, right and uh and
through that process we I met Egg and there was
just kind of instant chemistry and I we had similar

(02:45):
sensibilities and it just really it really clicked, and it
was it was you know, it's one of those I
didn't know if that was out there. You know, it's
like finding finding, finding a spouse or something.

Speaker 1 (02:59):
Okay, lets let's back up for a second. You have
a solo deal with Records, which is its own company,
but now your albums are coming out on Ato. The
group albums, the.

Speaker 2 (03:11):
Group albums are actually coming out. We were doing our
own label, but thirty Tigers is marketing industributing on so
it's a while.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
Okay, I'm gonna walk through this. The first label is
single Lock. What is single Lock?

Speaker 2 (03:26):
So Single Lock is a label out of Florence, Alabia.
Most of the muscle show the Shoals area and they
were friends of ours. They were starting this, you know,
starting this new label, and we weren't the first act
on it, but we were one of the first and
I think that one actually that label started ended up

(03:47):
being distributed through thirty Tigers as well, so we worked
we used thirty Tigers label services as well for that
first record.

Speaker 1 (03:54):
Okay, yeah, let's get into a little business. First record,
Boy is released by Single Lock. Does the band own
it or does the label own it?

Speaker 2 (04:03):
We own it? We actually, I guess I made that.
We had a ten year term on it and that
was released in twenty fourteen, so you can do the math.
We own it.

Speaker 1 (04:14):
Okay, you make one record with single Lock, then you
start making with people can't see the air quotes, start
making albums with Records. What is records?

Speaker 2 (04:27):
So Records initially was a spin off or it was
a part of Songs Publishing, which no longer exists, and
it was we had had such a good relationship with
them that when they proposed the label, we were like great,
you know, like we had a good relationship. So that

(04:49):
was at that time. The A and R was Ron
Perry and Barry Weiss and and so we just had,
you know, we thought that was that would be the
best situation for for us at that point. And so
then We did two records with them and.

Speaker 1 (05:06):
Time Out time Out who distributed the records.

Speaker 2 (05:09):
Record Sony Sony.

Speaker 1 (05:11):
Okay, but you also had a publishing deal with this company.

Speaker 2 (05:15):
Yes, yes, we did.

Speaker 1 (05:17):
How did that come to be?

Speaker 2 (05:19):
Well, I mean they ended up giving us the most money. Uh,
I mean, you know, like and and they had done
some really I mean, to be to be honest, they
had done some really good things, like they had. We'd
gotten some placements, and it was just a good relationship,
you know what I mean. Like it's one of those
things that's I think that's what our business in a
lot of ways is about, is just having good relationships

(05:40):
and people telling you what they're gonna do, and they
do it and you go from there.

Speaker 1 (05:46):
Okay, in the deal with songs, do you still own
the songs?

Speaker 2 (05:51):
I I think that is a split that one is.

Speaker 1 (05:56):
Okay, that's a split on the ownership. Does it ultimately
we've verted to you?

Speaker 2 (06:01):
I think it does. I think I think it does.

Speaker 1 (06:06):
Okay, Okay, you're in Alabama. Yeah, from the outside, it
looks like you're a little wet behind the years. No,
you're talking about Ron Perry and Barry Weiss. Those guys
have decades worth of experience.

Speaker 2 (06:18):
That is true.

Speaker 1 (06:19):
So you want to make a deal with those people.
You get a lawyer, you get a manager. What's the
first step on your end?

Speaker 2 (06:26):
Oh, we have we had our we had we had
we had a manager, We had a lawyer. Look at
the date, you know, we had all of that stuff.

Speaker 1 (06:35):
Okay, was it a music business lawyer?

Speaker 2 (06:37):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (06:38):
Yes, okay. So you make two records with records? Then
you shift to at O what's the thinking there.

Speaker 2 (06:46):
Well, at that time we with records, it seemed I
don't you know, it seemed like what their goal for
us was was a different thing. You know. We are
kind of like, hey, it not that they not that
they not that they don't care about the music. It

(07:08):
was just that it was one of those things where
they were like, hey, I think they were kind of
thinking maybe pop hits or something of that nature, and
we're kind of like, that's not really us, you know
what I mean? Uh, you know what I mean, Like, well,
that's not us, that's just not us. That's not no
one's picking us to be on the cover of Vogue, Right.

(07:31):
So we came to a mutual agreement where they're like, hey, great,
we'll let you we'll let y'all, let y'all out, we
have more time with them, They said, you know, but
you know, Paul's solo thing can stay here, and then
y'all are free to do whatever you want. And at
the time we we were with Red Light Management and

(07:52):
it seemed like a good fit with ATO, and we
had two records that were I would say, left of
center is the best way I could say it, and
knew knew that, and we thought.

Speaker 1 (08:02):
Oh wait, wait, slow down, forget other people's perception. That's
where left of center would describe it. What were you
trying to do and how do you feel about what
you were trying to do and what you accomplished on
those records.

Speaker 2 (08:16):
I think when we first started, everyone was talking about
the retro soul stuff, and we felt as a band
it was it was proven it to ourselves. We felt
as a band we were more than that. We felt
like we could to ourselves prove that we can go
a little bit more musically somewhere else and do do
do all sorts of things which this band is capable

(08:37):
of doing. And it wasn't really about I mean, you
don't I hate saying this like you obviously want audiences
to like your music, but at the same time, like
if I got it into that, into this for that,
like that's not that's not why I do it, But
it was kind of proven to ourselves that, like we're
also fans of Radiohead and Aphex Len and all sorts

(08:58):
of all sorts of stuff, and so those influences kind
of infiltrated the music, and I think we were trying
to prove to ourselves like, no, hey, we're a little
bit more than just like a novelty retro soul act.

Speaker 1 (09:13):
Okay, you made those records. You made two after the
records were done, did you feel that you accomplish what
you wanted? And two what was the audience reaction and
how did that affect you?

Speaker 2 (09:33):
Yes, I felt like we accomplished what we wanted. That
is the one satisfying thing that is I feel so
fortunate that we got away with that personally, like I do,
because like to be still having a career and touring
and going through that is a There's not a lot
of bands that can say that. So I feel like
we did. We accomplished what we wanted, which hints why
we kind of felt like this next record is is

(09:55):
kind of a refresher, wenewed thing with the audience. Uh,
it was challenging for the audience. I think there's some
people that went with us and there's some people that didn't.
You know, I think, you know, when you're known for
one thing like we have a tiny desk or the
Letterman performance or all of those things, that's what people expect,

(10:15):
and then when they don't get that, it challenges them.
And it was definitely challenging music. Its challenging for us.
We were like, who this is out there? Uh, but
we felt like it felt right. It felt right to us,
and we felt like but the audience we released. So
the last record were released was Angels and Science Fiction
and it's very mellow. I don't think there's hardly any

(10:37):
horns on it. Very mellow record. And we try to
tour differently, like maybe do more seated listening room stuff,
and it's pretty obviously our audience or the audience didn't
have an appetite for it. And while I think that's
a beautiful record and I'm very proud of it, it just
it didn't seem like they were that into it, which

(10:58):
is fine, I mean, you know what I mean, that's
just part of being that's part of having a career.

Speaker 1 (11:02):
In this Okay, you have these two records where you
expand your horizons. They are not as commercially successful on
the road or on streams as the other ones. Do
you feel hampered by that or do you feel fuck man,
I want to have a career. Let's go back to

(11:22):
the soul thing. I don't.

Speaker 2 (11:24):
I don't. I know this is crazy. I don't. I
don't feel that way. I think this is I'm proud
of those records, you know, I really am. I don't.
If I was gonna do I was in accounting school.
So if I want to do that and that's what
I was about, then the if the only thing to
me is the outcome of money with this, then well

(11:46):
there's not a lot of difference. So that's not it
is it. Don't get me wrong. It's important, you know,
it's a secondary outcome to what we do. But but
I don't. I don't look at it like that. I'm
very proud of those. I don't look at those and go,
oh God, like man, we we gotta get back to
the thing, you know what I mean, Like, we gotta
we gotta start getting those horns back in. It's just
I think I've said this, and I've said this to

(12:07):
our management, like this next record it it does it
coincide with maybe what people maybe want from us a
little bit more. Yeah, but that's not why we're there.
We're there because like going through that process with the
solo thing and writing and go and I really got
obsessed with the idea of great songwriting, which is not

(12:28):
saying that I wasn't, but it just felt like it
got leveled up a bit, and so that I was
chasing that dragon at that point, like writing just right,
not from a modern sense, I don't, not from a
modern pop sense, but from like a classic songwriting perspective,
like someone like Jimmy Webb or something, you know what
I mean, Like trying to go go that route. That's

(12:50):
what fascinating. And it just kind of coincides with with
where we're at.

Speaker 1 (12:55):
Okay, talking a little bit more business. You make two
records with Ato, you're with Red Light, now you're with
Q Prime and with thirty Tigers. What accounted for those changes?

Speaker 2 (13:10):
I oh, boy, uh, I think I think for us,
it just felt it it felt like ownership of your
stuff was really important in this day and age owning
your things right, It felt like you know, with with

(13:32):
With at first, you know, we weren't when we it
was AMFM, and then they got absorbed into Q Prime.
We when we made that change, it felt like they
it just felt like they had a little bit more
grasp of the modern modern times maybe and and And
I think understood this band. I think that's what we've

(13:53):
come to realize over time, is like thirty Tigers was
great about understanding this band, not that others didn't, but
it was just they had the best grasp. And then
with management, it was kind of the same thing, like
what is this band because we're not you know, we're
not country like, we've done all sorts of genres, We've
done all sorts of things, and it just, you know,
it felt like the right fit. I mean, that's that's

(14:13):
I guess the best I could say.

Speaker 1 (14:15):
Okay, let's slow it down a little bit. Does Ato
own those two records?

Speaker 2 (14:22):
Yes, we will split those till in perpetuity.

Speaker 1 (14:26):
Okay, So Saint Paul and the Broken Bones own half
of those or some percentage, yeah, half, Okay, So let's
talk about management. You're in one canoe, I mean, before
you jump into the other canoe. There must be a
process of wait a second, you know we're going in

(14:47):
the wrong direction, or we need better paddles or something.
What was going through your brain?

Speaker 2 (14:54):
Uh, well, there was a lot of things going through
my brain. Management's really tough because you you kind of
speed date and then you have to get married, you know,
and that's really hard, and you don't really know what
you're getting until I would say at least a year

(15:15):
in you know what I'm saying. Even then, it's still difficult.
And we just felt like, you know, everybody promise you,
promises you the world, right, and we are a mid
sized touring act, so we do. We are going to
bring whoever we go to some money, and for me

(15:37):
it's a lot of money. For them it might not
be that much money, but for me it's a lot
of money. And so it you obviously have to give
people a chance and go through. But when there starts
to be certain signs of like, hey, this is not
the right fit. I talked to somebody on our team
and they were like, hey, bad management can or or

(15:58):
not the right fit can can burn you. It can
get you in real trouble. And so we we kind
of had to make a swift, swift decision and uh
and more good shape.

Speaker 1 (16:16):
Okay, so you have a new management company. Every management
company is different. It's not like, you know, even working
for a big corporation. So what is the difference on
a more granular level working with am FM, which is
now part of Q Prime.

Speaker 2 (16:36):
Well, I think I think they have a better grasp
of the times of what we're in, like I they
I think digital, the digital world. Like something for us
that we are not good at is social media. I
hate it with a pure and holy passion. We're not
good with YouTube stuff. But that's the world we're in now.

(16:57):
For example, like when we first started arted with them,
we had I think, I don't even think we had
a TikTok account right, so, which I was fine with,
I don't care. But they were like, hey, let's let's
do this. They had somebody I think, and this is
a great example. In January we had about four thousand followers.

(17:19):
Today we have ninety five thousand, and something went viral.
They were able to. It's really just capitalizing on when
something happens, when the luck comes, you know, being ready
when the luck comes. And I think the digital side
they had a really good understanding and we just kind
of knew we felt like dinosaurs in a lot of ways,
where we're like, you know, I still believe putting on

(17:42):
great shows leads to a career, but there was just
the digital side that we were really struggling with. And
it's not it was it's also just you know, personality
fits and teams. I think with really large management companies
there is an internal dynamic that they're trying. I mean,
they have a boss and so they're having to navigate

(18:04):
their their businesses and stuff. It's like and he needs
someone who's just like, what is there's no one more
focused on my career and our career than me. They're
just not. But you need someone who can go at
least get and get a little bit in the weeds
with you. And you know there's internal but like with
going to a MFM, like Air Frank owned the company,

(18:26):
you know what I mean, Like he's the boss and
there's no one else over him that they have to
you know, navigate, and you know that's just how it works.

Speaker 1 (18:36):
Okay, So they say let's get deeper into social internet digital,
many people up until the very recently said sounds good.
They hire somebody or they hire a company. You and
the members of your band, how involved are you personally?

(18:58):
And what is posted on TikTok.

Speaker 2 (19:00):
I get a message that says do you approve? And
I go yep, and that's it.

Speaker 1 (19:07):
Okay, I mean I haven't checked out all your TikTok clips.
What are those clips? Like?

Speaker 2 (19:13):
Well, what we found is there was this is no joke.
We had a clip we did a cruise for, like
a New Orleans cruise, you know, and a small little
clip of that went viral on TikTok and I was
just like, okay, what you know what I mean so bizarre.
But what we have found in this particular song, what

(19:34):
we have found is that every time we post that
particular part of that song, it it gets, you know,
over one hundred to two hundred thousand views, and one
of them got over I'm gonna think two million or something,
you know, something nuts. And so what we do and
what they have found is that it's it's performing, which
I am so grateful for because I'll take a clip
of me performing any day of the week, right Like,

(19:55):
that's that's easy. It's not sitting on a pie or
doing some sort of trendy you know thing or whatever,
and so that's what they found is just like clips
are performing and and I'm sure you know with the
record release there'll be some more involvement, but but for us,
it's just about getting live footage because that is apparently
what people want from us.

Speaker 1 (20:16):
Okay, i'd only seen you saw the Letterman performance. We'll
get back to that, hopefully saw the screen. I've seen you.
I am now talking to you. You are completely different
from my preconception. Okay, okay, and I only mean that
in a good way. Okay, You're humble, you're intelligent, you

(20:41):
have a sense of humor. So if you yourself, Paul Janeway,
were posting about you and your band or what you
did or anything, man, that would be magic on TikTok.
What's wrong with doing something like that?

Speaker 2 (20:59):
You know what managements are gonna hear this, and now
they're gonna be like, hey, hey said it, I'm my back.
Oh god, uh, I know, I get it. I understand
what you're saying. I just it is it's just here's
the problem, Like, so you have to promote yourself and
I'm just not It's it's it's a hard personality it's
just a personality tick. But yes, you are, I have

(21:21):
trust me. You ain't the first one to say it,
which I appreciate, but uh, it's it's just I don't know, man,
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (21:27):
Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait. There's two elements here.
There's one playing at all and another promoting yourself. I
don't want to go anywhere and say I'm great, listen
to me do my stuff. I completely understand that, okay,
but as an artist. An artist is not solely what's

(21:49):
in the recording and what's on stage. There's much more
to that. So to illuminate that does not mean you're
selling out. You're hyping yourself.

Speaker 2 (22:00):
Yeah, no, you're right. I mean, look, the whole band
has a really great dynamic, and there it's you know,
we've been doing this for twelve years and we don't
hate each other, so there has to be an element
of I hear you, I hear you, and I ain't
saying you're wrong. It's just it's just a heart. For
some reason, I just have a hard time with it,

(22:21):
and I think it probably I'll be honest with you,
I'll tell you what it probably is a self esteem.
You know what I mean because I think, who in
the hell wants to hear from me and cares what
I think or drink or eat or you know what
I'm saying. But I think that's what it.

Speaker 1 (22:34):
Is, exactly what you're seeing. But I'll say two things. One,
it's like I always say, you never know what's going
to happen until you step out the front door. There
are a lot of things I didn't want to do,
and I went and led to all kinds of crazy shit.
There's a lot of things I went out and nothing happened.
But I'm just talking walking out the front door. Okay.

(22:55):
The same thing which is interesting, which is obviously you
have no problem getting up on stage and performing. In addition,
you are a dynamic performer. Now they're like Howard Stern
famously in his first marriage he would talk on the radio,
come on, sit in his basement, not talk to anybody. Okay,

(23:17):
So do you get all your eas out on stage
and the rest of the time you're pretty isolated and
low key or you just don't want to display the
rest of your personality to the masses.

Speaker 2 (23:30):
I think that there is a privacy aspect to it.
I think there's also because I think when you you
live by the sword and you die by the sword.
When it comes to social media, and I think when
you allow that in, you are allowing you know, there
is It's like I believe in criticism, right, music criticism
and things like that, because we're sitting here trying. You know,

(23:52):
you pay somebody to promote you toot your horn. Well,
there has to be a counter to that, just for
someone to wave through. And I think with social media's
if you're gonna put your life out there, you have
to be open to the criticism that's gonna happen when you.
I mean we see that all the time with people
who have podcasts and they talk every day. Well, you're
gonna say something, you know what I mean, Like, no
one's perfect, we're all imperfect.

Speaker 1 (24:13):
Wait wait wait wait, you don't have to say anything,
and they're gonna hate on you exactly. You know, I
walked out the front door. It was a beautiful day,
you piece of shit. Why didn't you stay home? Et cetera.
That goes with the territory. But it's not only social media.
You play it all, you put your music out there. Yeah,

(24:36):
I know, I know they're gonna be people who hating
on you just for hating on you.

Speaker 2 (24:41):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I know that that part doesn't
really bother me, you know what I mean, Like that part,
I don't care about that. I mean people, I mean,
god knows, we've made records that I know. I was like,
I knew, like, ain't nobody going like this? But I
don't care. But I think part of it, part of
I think part of it is you live us or diabosourd.
I also think with social media, I just it's just

(25:02):
not my personality. I am my. I don't drink, I
don't smoke, I don't have many you know, vices. So
performing on stage and that moment of making music like
that's that's my thing, Like that's where it's my outlet,
and so it's where I get to be. I don't know,
it's it's just where I get to be anything I

(25:22):
want to be. And I love performing. I love being
that vessel for people to feel something. You know, we
just so desperately and need that. I think in generous
people Like that's why I tell everybody to talk about
AI and stuff like shows ain't going anywhere, They're not
going anywhere because people are gonna still need that connection
and to and to be a tool or a vessel

(25:44):
for that for people to experience a comp whether it's
crying or laughing or or you know whatever. Like that's man,
that's that's that's a powerful drug. If I could figure
out how to bottle that up. I never leave home.
But after that, like I am a little bit more
low key, you know what I mean? Like I like people,
but I just you know, I don't go out and

(26:05):
I got I got, you know, I got a four
year old little girl, I got my wife. Like staying
at home and being with them is pretty awesome to me.

Speaker 1 (26:14):
Okay, since you brought it up, you say you don't
drink and you don't smoke. Did you used to drink?
And did you used to smoke?

Speaker 2 (26:22):
Never? Have never. I grew up pretty religious.

Speaker 1 (26:26):
So your parents didn't drink or smoke either.

Speaker 2 (26:28):
I've never seen my mom or dad drink or smoke.

Speaker 1 (26:32):
So you're in the music world where a lot of
people drink and smoke. Did people pressure you to drink
and smoke? Are you comfortable when other people are drinking smokers?
And a non issue?

Speaker 2 (26:46):
It's a non issue for me now. Early on, I
never forget we did something in Nashville, and there was
a old veteran guitar player who who told me, I said,
you know, offer me something, you know, beer or something.
I said, oh, no, thank you, I'm good. He said,
you don't you know this, asked me and said you
don't drink. And I said, no, I don't, I don't.

(27:06):
He said, yeah, we'll see about that in a year.
And I was just like, all right, man, I haven't
have it so far, but uh it No. The guys
loved it. The guys in the band loved it because
when we were in the van, they knew they could
do whatever they wanted to do and there was gonna
be somebody that's gonna drive the van around, you know
what I mean. They loved it. They were like, yeah,

(27:27):
I love this guy doesn't drink, you know, a drink
or do anything, and so uh yeah. So it it's
a non issue to me, when, of course, when I
was younger, it was a you know, it was a
it was due to, you know, a religious thing. But
now I don't, I don't. I mean, I don't care,
you know what I mean, as long as long as
everything's consensual and you your own person, do do whatever

(27:49):
you want. To do you know.

Speaker 1 (27:51):
Okay, you say you grew up in a religious environment.
Did you have to break away from that to go
on this path or you just happen to be on
this path and you're still religious. Tell me about your
thoughts over this run.

Speaker 2 (28:09):
Well that's a loaded question, uh, you know, trying to
get it all in for me. I grew up, yeah,
growing up religious, you know, grew up where you you know,
my church went through many things, but one of them
was speaking in tongues and slaying the demons and he
or healing and all that, all that stuff. You know,

(28:30):
it's a small town, right, And and so I did
grow out of love with that. You know. I think
as anything, your worldview broadens, you know, like how how
how people view certain things? You'd like? No, I don't.
I don't agree with that. Like the part I'm attracted
to is is the love and acceptance and service. Those
are the things that really stand out about it. And

(28:52):
so I really fell out of love with it. And
I started doing open mic nights in Birmingham, Alabama, and
all I really want to because I know how to
play guitar and sing, and and so I kind of
fell out of love with it, and I'd never listened
to till I was nineteen twenty. I'd never listened to
a Beatles album in full. I'd never listened to you know,

(29:13):
led Zeppelin, and you know what I mean, because I
was just so sheltered from that, And so it was
it was when you started listening to all these records,
You're like, it was kind of like finding Jesus, because
you're like, man, it's just a lot of music to
listen to you And so I kind of got obsessed
and and then that obviously led me down this path.
And now I think at that point I had a

(29:35):
lot of venom towards it. And now I think I'm
in a place where I can find peace in it.
And there's aspects of it that I feel like I
should be applied to my life, like the service and
love those things. But I have a hard time stepping
in churches these days. It's it's it's it's a hard

(29:56):
thing for me to do.

Speaker 1 (29:58):
Okay, you grew up. Was the external demonized or were
you just unaware?

Speaker 2 (30:08):
Hum, that's a good question. Uh, it was definitely demonized
to a degree. It wasn't just everything wasn't awful, But
I remember It's funny, you know, having having a four
year old and Halloween, and I remember early on going
trick or treat, but then it turned into like, oh,
this is the Devil's holiday and all that jazz, you

(30:28):
know what I mean, when you're just like okay whatever
and uh. And so my experience with Halloween stuff like that,
I think it. I think it changed over time. I
think that's just how I think culturally. You know, small
town Alabama, you know, church being the epicenter like it,
just those things changed over time. And I think I
think initially it was just like hey, just not exposed

(30:49):
the stuff. But I don't think that happens as much
now because we have the Internet, you know what I mean,
Like you are attached to a whole other world now.
Though it can't get very echo chamber, you still have
access to so many different things now than when you
know then when I was going up.

Speaker 1 (31:07):
How about the radio. Were you listening to music radio
growing up?

Speaker 3 (31:10):
Now?

Speaker 2 (31:11):
No? The only thing my dad would ever listen to
was sports talk. And then there was a Christian radio
station that was about that was about.

Speaker 1 (31:19):
It and Christian rock? Was that something you.

Speaker 2 (31:22):
Were in now? That was part of it? It was
got old gospel too, you know. The only thing and
that probably makes a lot of sense. The only thing
that my mom would listen to that was, I guess
really considered secular was the stylistics. The old seventies grouped
the stylistics and Sam Cook and and all that stuff.
So in old school Marvin Gay, you know before before

(31:44):
what's going on? Or let's get it on Marvin Gay.
But uh, and so probably makes a lot of sense. Uh,
my mom, my cousin one time gave me a Nirvana
CD and my mom threw it away, and so I
never Yeah, that was it.

Speaker 1 (32:08):
Okay, So you grew up exactly where.

Speaker 2 (32:11):
Chelsea, Alabama, and.

Speaker 1 (32:14):
For those of us from the north feeniest although I
live in Los Angeles now, where exactly is that?

Speaker 2 (32:19):
So Chelsea is about forty five minutes about where I
about live to an hour south of Birmingham when I
grew up. It's really an interesting place because when I
grew up there, it was about eight hundred people and
it is the when I got into high school, is
the fastest, one of the fastest growing counties in the
United States, and I think now about twenty thousand people

(32:43):
lived there. Really, Yes, it's really bizarre. It's what was
it blew up really quick. So when I was getting
out of high school and I left basically so it's
it's now. It is now. I lived in unincorporated the
unincorporated land, but it's now a full I would argue, suburb,
whereas when I grew up it was a pretty rural area.

Speaker 1 (33:06):
And would your parents do for a living?

Speaker 2 (33:08):
My dad works in paving in construction, and my mom
was a or a nurse for a gynecologist.

Speaker 1 (33:19):
And do you have any siblings?

Speaker 2 (33:21):
I do? I have two younger sisters. I have you know, yeah,
I got two younger sisters.

Speaker 1 (33:27):
And you broke away from this background upbringing.

Speaker 2 (33:32):
What happened with them, Well, you know what happens, I think,
unfortunately with a lot of families in this situation. My
parents got divorced when I was sixteen, and I think
when that happens, your worldview changes a lot. And I
think that was probably a pretty pivotal point for me
as well, because you know, your parents aren't your heroes,
and you know what I mean, Like, you go through
all this this whole process, especially in a small town,

(33:54):
small community, everybody knows about it, and it gets kind
of ugly and all that stuff. And I think once
that happened, it really changed all of us in a
lot of ways. And so everybody's I would argue a
little more worldly now, you know what I mean, just
the best way. But my sister, you know, my sister,
one of my sisters is an engineer and the other

(34:16):
one is a social worker. So that's you know.

Speaker 1 (34:18):
So did you see the divorce coming and you said
it changed you in a lot of ways? What ways
were those?

Speaker 2 (34:27):
Definitely saw it. You know, I don't want to get
too deep, but it was it was a there was,
you know, an abusive atmosphere, was the nicest way I
can say it. And I just grew up that way
and so definitely saw it. Probably should have come a
lot sooner than it did. And then, uh, I think

(34:51):
for me, it it changed. It just changed. It changed.
It changes how you feel about the world. And you know,
you're you have these people that you that you're entrusted
to and now they're you know, now they're getting divorced.

Speaker 1 (35:08):
Okay, so you're in Chelsea. How does this big transition happen?
You graduate from high school? You would I mean, I
don't know, how does it happen.

Speaker 2 (35:19):
Well, I didn't graduate from high school till a year later. I. Uh,
my mom was pretty adamant about me going to school,
and I was telling her, no, I don't want to
go to school. And so we had, you know, you
have one of those big blowoffs. And my dad at
the time was living in an apartment, uh, two bedroom apartment,
and uh, he was like, well, you can come live here,

(35:42):
but he was driving two hours every morning, uh to
or you know, to Aniston. So he's getting up at
four thirty in the morning driving to work. So no
one was taking making sure I was going to school.
So I didn't go to school, and uh and uh.
And then eventually I realized, like, all right, I can't.
I gotta get my high school diploma. So I went

(36:02):
to summer school, then went to it. I mean my
whole I think most my senior year, I didn't even
I didn't even I don't think I cracked the cracked
the doors of that school. And so I went to So, yeah,
I went to I went. It took me another year
and a half to get my high school diploma. So
I was supposed to graduate and I didn't. So it
took me a while, which looking back at it now

(36:23):
is fairly embarrassing. I should have I should have stuck
with it, but you know, I was just a situation
where I didn't have any you know what, my dad's fault.
He's working, right, I should I should have gotten up
and gone, but I just didn't go. And and then
so then you know, I'm obviously lost, you know what
I mean, I don't. I have no idea what I
want to do with my life. I have no clue.

(36:43):
And I was living with my dad and my sister
moves in, so one of us had to sleep on
the couch, and it was it was I looked back
at it. I laughed now, but it was not laughing then,
you know what I mean. It was not laughing, but
I look at it and I was it's And so
then you know, I was, I was having to figure
out my life, you know. And music, I mean, there's

(37:06):
not there's not a ton of stuff that's come out
of burning him. And music didn't seem like I loved creating,
but it doesn't seem like an option. And and and
I was I never forget. I was working at a
tanning bed. I know, with this this skin right here,
it's a level. Look, you know what I mean. But
I was working at a tanning bed my Uh it
was because I didn't have a car, so I could

(37:26):
walk there, and uh they let me go. So finally
I swallowed my pride. That did the thing. Because my
Papal worked in paving in construction. He was a mechanic.
My dad worked in paving in construction. I was like,
that was the family lineage, right, working working on the
roads and things. And I thought I had to swallow
my pride and say, Dad, hey, can you help me
out and get me a job. And he put in

(37:47):
a good word and I started working for a mechanic
shop as a gopher and I'd cut the grass and
all that stuff. And so he and so in that time,
I'm still playing. I still loved and you know what
I mean, But it just I do an open mic
here there. I end up meeting this guy named Jesse Phillips,
who is the bass player in this band. Uh to

(38:09):
this day, me and him grew into a really great
relationship and he still he was the best man at
my wedding. Like we still I loved. I love him
to death. And he had I had a little record
collection and I had talking heads remain in light and
he saw that and he's like, I think we're gonna
be friends, and and uh, and so I got let

(38:34):
go at the mechanic shop in two thousand and eight
when all the economy went down. And to be fair,
I wasn't great at that job, you know what I mean,
Like I mean I had to be there at six
point thirty in the morning. I am not a morning person.
But it was just part of life, right, And when
the economy went down, and then so I was on
unemployment for like three or two or two and a
half three years and didn't have much going I really

(38:54):
didn't and uh, but still playing music with Jesse. And
then met a girl and she is now my wife.
Met her and I knew I had to do something.
I was like, I gotta I gotta make something on myself.
So I went to community college. Still play music, but
nothing really happening. Went to community college. Then decided, okay,

(39:17):
you know, I was had a job at a sporting
good store, going to community college. She stuck with me,
and then finally I was going into a county school
at UAB here in Birmingham, and my and Jesse's like, hey, man,
I'm about to move on to can we just kind

(39:38):
of write this a little EP or something of our
musical friendship and we'll always be friends. That ended up
being Saint Paul and the Broken Bones.

Speaker 1 (39:47):
Okay, let's go back. Yes, you were living in this
religious environment. How much was music a part of that?
And how much did you sing, play or whatever? My mom?

Speaker 2 (39:59):
I mean, I sang some I was four years old.
I sang solos in church. My mom plays piano, she
sings too. It's really really interesting that, you know. My
mom's relationship with music was something I knew when something
bad had happened to her because I'd hear the piano
being played. It's a So that was always kind of

(40:19):
my relationship with music, right, and so we played all
the time. Now I sang all the time, but I
never thought. I never thought I was a lead singer.
I had a pastor that was very adamant about me
singing background. I think you probably saw how much I
loved it. And he's like, no, we gotta treat treat you,
gotta treat this fellow humility. And uh so he would

(40:41):
kind of he would have me sing background, and I never,
So I never never thought I was much of a singer,
you know, so I never really got that until I
went to open mics. But yeah, it was around. I
was around it a lot.

Speaker 1 (40:54):
Okay, At what point, I mean when you talk about
owning remaining late, what starts this transition into secular music?
How do you discover what goes on?

Speaker 2 (41:07):
Well, I mean really, for me, what it was is
once you kind of get out of that world, right,
you get out of that small kind of religious world,
it was just kind of an explosion of of like
music discovery, right, And I'm just like, and it's gonna
be bad. And I know I shouldn't say this, but
it was the time of of pirrating music, so you

(41:31):
know what I mean, So I could. I had I
had an external hard drive with I mean millions of stuff,
you know what I mean, and I just downloaded and
listen to it and listen to it and listen to it. Really,
what's really funny is one of the people that I
really loved after this kind of you know, you go
read a magazine or you know what I mean, and
you would just kind of go all over the place.

(41:52):
One of the people I really loved that was that
was really and I'm glad I do because now it's
it's funny. It's Tom Waits. And the reason I tom
Waits is because when I would listen to his records,
it sounded like the old lady in our church who
played played, uh, played piano, and I got this, like
his style kind of match some of it. And so

(42:14):
I just I devoured everything, you know what I mean,
because you could at that time like I just devoured everything,
and so I would just I think I still have
that hard drive somewhere. This is all of everything. So
I loved. What was interesting for me is I love
the stuff that made my ears perk up a little bit,
you know what I mean. That wasn't so like standard things,
and so obviously something like talking heads that made you go,

(42:36):
oh what what's that? And so I kind of fell
in love with that. And so that's that was the journey,
and it was it became, no kidding, an obsession. And
I'm talking when I woke up, I listened to music,
you know, go in the bed, I mean from all
when I could cut the grass and listen with my headphones. Man,
that was it my favorite thing to do. We would
escort the big equipment in Alabama, you know, big old

(42:58):
pavers and stuff, and I'd get to escort them with
my little truck, and man, I'd listen to records all day,
all day. And that's really kind of where it began.

Speaker 1 (43:08):
Okay, just to get the timing right. Did this start
when your appearents got divorced or you moved in with
your father? When did this transition happen?

Speaker 2 (43:17):
I think when it moved in when I moved in
with dad, because I was he wasn't in the community anymore,
you know what I mean, Like he was outside of it,
and you just you feel lost, You feel lost at sea.
And music has always kind of been that that that
compass to kind of lead you in the right direction
or or I mean, you know, we all that. I
think that's why we all we all have flashbowl memories

(43:40):
of music and albums and songs and and so that's
where music just kind of it always felt somewhat spiritual
to me.

Speaker 1 (43:47):
Okay, when you were going to these open mics, where
were the open mics? And what were you doing?

Speaker 2 (43:54):
They were open mind? There was I think there was
a place called the Oasis Bar that was I think
I was the first one I did down in Burma.
It was just in Birmingham. I mean I never played
anywhere else.

Speaker 1 (44:03):
Okay, just so I understand, Chelsea is like forty five
minutes from Birmingham. When you move in with your father,
how far from Birmingham are you?

Speaker 2 (44:12):
I think it's like fifteen fifteen minutes. Oh close, close, Yeah,
it was close. It was close to downtown.

Speaker 1 (44:18):
And so when you would go to these open mics,
you had a car, how'd you get there?

Speaker 2 (44:22):
I did have a car. I did have a car
for a little bit. You know, you'd bum ridse with
friends or whatever you needed to do.

Speaker 1 (44:29):
Okay, so you find out there's an open mic, you
go there, no one knows who are you sign up?
It's your little time on stage. What do you actually do? Uh?

Speaker 2 (44:40):
Funny enough, you would think, oh, he'd probably do a
cover or two. I would play songs I wrote, and
that was it. That's us all. That's the only reason
I learned to play guitar was the right songs I wrote.

Speaker 1 (44:51):
Just to be clear, when did you pick up the
guitar and start writing songs?

Speaker 2 (44:54):
It's funny enough. I'm in church when I was about
I'd say about thirteen started playing guitar.

Speaker 1 (45:02):
Okay, you're living with your father, you own a guitar,
you're writing songs. What is the thought process of going
to the open mic because you are going to expose yourself?
What was going through your head?

Speaker 2 (45:18):
I think it was just an outlet, you know what
I mean? Like I remember, because you know, I would
I preached in church a little bit, and I love
that kind of performance thing. And there was something about
about me internally that just really loved that performing in
front of people. And and I mean I was nervous
as hell, don't get me wrong, but I just had

(45:39):
that something within me is like, hey, I really enjoy this.
It brings me a lot of joy. Go do it.
And I would go do it, and then then I'd
go do it.

Speaker 1 (45:48):
Okay. How many times did you go to the open mic?

Speaker 2 (45:50):
Oh? I don't know. It was a lot.

Speaker 1 (45:52):
Okay, so you went. How long would they play? How
many people were there? And what kind of reaction did
your original material get?

Speaker 2 (46:00):
Uh? It would vary. Sometimes there'd be three people there
and sometimes there'd be twenty people there. You know, it
was whatever. I think that's when I realized, Okay, maybe
I'm not a bad singer because I wasn't a great
guitar player as good enough, you know what I mean.
But it got a reaction and people would woo or whatever,
and I was like, oh, okay, maybe maybe I got something,

(46:23):
you know what I mean. And so you kinda try
and I don't know deal with Oh.

Speaker 1 (46:29):
Okay, did you find you got a reaction pretty quickly
or deeper in your mic appearances?

Speaker 2 (46:37):
It was pretty immediate. It was pretty immediate.

Speaker 1 (46:41):
Okay, that feels good, but you're not the only one
on stage. When you were over, do you say, well,
that felt good and I'm pretty good or that felt good,
but Jesus, the ten other people are better than me.

Speaker 2 (46:58):
This is funny. I remember being like I'd see somebody
and I mean, I think I sing better than this person,
you know what I mean. You would do that kind
of thing because I do have an internal competition type thing,
which as you, I think you kind of get older,
you kind of just have to realize you focus on yourself.

(47:18):
But there was still at that time like, oh man,
like there'd be people doing well, you know what I mean,
and I think I think I could do better, you
know what I'm saying. You'd have that mechanism area.

Speaker 1 (47:29):
Just to go back, when you're going to school, are
you playing sports, are you doing competition or you're more
stitting at home.

Speaker 2 (47:36):
Well, when I was in high school, I did. I
definitely played played sports.

Speaker 1 (47:40):
But after that, no, okay, we're in this game. And
how do you meet the woman who becomes your wife?

Speaker 2 (47:54):
I went on a date with a roommate.

Speaker 1 (47:55):
How did you end up going out a date with
a roommate?

Speaker 2 (47:58):
It's a laws. I look, man, I was in a
long relationship. I I you know, I'm I'm I'm a
serial monogamous. I guess is the best way to say.
Uh I? Uh I. I got out of long term
relationship and it felt really lost because the music thing
hadn't happened, and I wasn't you know, I was in
her weird place. And so through mutual friends meet her roommate.

(48:24):
I'm not sure I was exactly ready to go out
on the date. Went on one date, and uh, Caroline
was there at her at the at the the her
friends have they lived together, and I was like, man,
I like that girl. But I've already you know what
I mean, I've already that this has already happened, you know, like,
it's we've already went on a date. I don't know,

(48:44):
And then I knew pretty pretty much. I was like,
I don't know if this is for me. I don't
I still probably wasn't in the best place to be
dating anybody, and I don't you don't even really know
for roommate was that interested. But Caroline I liked and
I thought she's really smart and beautiful, and she she
had a scholarship to go to Georgetown to get her
masters and I just thought, this girl is so above me,

(49:07):
class and just classy and just really kind. All these
things right, all the all the things, and uh so
about I'd say about I'd say about six months later,
we start kind of I don't know, texting or something,
you know what I mean, where you start going okay,
And then we were like, uh oh, I think I

(49:27):
think we're I think we're into each other, all right,
So how do we navigate this? And she was leaving
no jokes, she was leaving two months for DC. She
was in Birmingham and she was leaving for two months
or she was leaving it two months to go to
school to get her master's at Georgetown. And so we
were hanging out a lot, you know what I mean,
And we were kind of can I think we like
each other and so on and so forth. Then when

(49:48):
she moved to d C. We both said hey, cause
I was like, I you do not. I am unemployed
living with my dad. You do not need to stay
here for me, you know what I mean, like go
to go oh, go to Georgetown, right and uh and
then we said, hey, we'll see what happens, you know,
Like time she moved to Georgetown in about two weeks
in we were like, uh, we gotta do the long

(50:10):
distance thing. And that's what we did and uh and
so it all worked out.

Speaker 1 (50:15):
Okay, where did she go up to undergrad.

Speaker 2 (50:18):
To Sandford University which is a private university in Birmingham.

Speaker 1 (50:22):
And did she stick it out at Georgetown? You did?

Speaker 2 (50:25):
You got a full ride and got her masters and
want to her masters in literature. Okay, just to go
back a step, you say you're a serial monogamous. So
you're someone who had a lot of girlfriends before Caroline. No,
I I've just I was pretty I was kind of
a one woman kind of guy. Though. If I was in,

(50:47):
I was in, you know what I mean, Like probably
you know what I mean I was in like I
I was like very loyal and and that kind of
thing may be the wrong terminology for it, but that's
that's how I was.

Speaker 1 (51:00):
But you weren't. I mean, there are a lot of
people I was sitting home playing the guitar, too scared
to talk to girls. It wasn't until I was a star.
You were with the ladies all long.

Speaker 2 (51:13):
Yeah. Yeah, I had girlfriends previous of being in St.
Paul and Brother Bones.

Speaker 1 (51:18):
Yes, so you Caroline is your age older younger. She's
three years younger, three years younger. Okay, so when you
meet her, she's like twenty two and you're like twenty five.

Speaker 2 (51:33):
I would say I was. It was more like I
was twenties. Well, yeah, that's that's close. That's actually yeah,
you're right, GotY Jesus, we've known each other that long.

Speaker 1 (51:42):
Wow, Okay, Okay, she finishes grad school. What does she
then do?

Speaker 2 (51:49):
So she had a lot, you know, a lot more
options than I did. She knew she wanted to come
back to Birmingham because we had, you know, we were dating.
We were pretty I mean obviously at that point, very
seriously dating. So she comes back to Birmingham and she
goes back to she works for Sanford University. She works there.

(52:11):
I can't remember her exact role. I know that she
ended up being the associate director of the Honors program
of the Honors college there, and so that's what she
ended up doing for a while.

Speaker 1 (52:25):
Okay, you're living with your dad. What does she say?
Did she say it? I like you, but you gotta
get it together. You got to go to school. How
did you end up going to community college? What was
going on there?

Speaker 2 (52:38):
That's exactly what happened. So she I always tell this
story her. She's from Bristol, Tennessee, and I go up
there to meet her parents, and her parents are some
of the sweetest, best people in the world. And I
had only two outfits for three days and her parents
cried when they met me because they were like, this
is the guy you bring home. This is it. It's unemployed.

(53:01):
You know, I ain't got no ambit, doesn't seem like
anything's going for him or anything. And she saw I mean,
I I it is true that it is. She's the
reason why this happened because she had a little faith
in me. But yeah, that basically what happened was she
was like, hey, I really like you, but you got
to get a job, like you gotta have something going on.

(53:23):
And she's like and I was like, yeah, you're right.
I mean, she was right, And I didn't realize it
at the time. I was probably depressed, you know what
I mean. But you don't realize it necessarily when you're
in it, and then you get out of you Oh,
that's definitely not in a good place, you know what
I mean. So, yeah, I worked at a job. I
worked at it. I got a job at a phibit
sporting good store, a sporting good store, making less working

(53:47):
at sporting good short store than I wasn't unemployment and uh,
which you know. But and then went to community and decided,
all right, I really got to do something. If I'm
going to keep this girl, I gotta I got So
I went to community college in Birmingham.

Speaker 1 (54:02):
So how long did you go to school that time?

Speaker 2 (54:05):
I went for two years, I guess, however you graduate
community college or however, you know what I mean, like,
however that works. And then and then went to UAB
which is a you know, a four year university for accounting,
and lasted I think two semesters there and then and
then the then my life got blown up with the band.

Speaker 1 (54:29):
Okay, you have a four year old, how do you
ultimately decide to have a kid, because it's not soon
after you meet her.

Speaker 2 (54:39):
Well, I mean when we first met, I don't think
kids were a thing that we were thinking about. I
think we were both fairly ambitious maybe, and we were
just like you know, I always tell the story though
we uh, we played a show, We played some shows
in Japan and my wife, my wife came and we

(54:59):
did like a full week of Japan and we'd already
traveled and gotten to do all this amazing stuff, you know,
the band, the band and her job at that point,
and we both were like, Okay, we've done about it.
I've lived ten lifetimes at this point, I think, and
we were like, if we're gonna have a kid, this
is the time to do it. And we did and it,

(55:22):
I mean, as everyone said, the most cliche thing was
the best decision we ever made. And all of the right,
all those things right, and it is, it's it's the
good thing is And what I love is that my
daughter is growing up in a house of love, you
know what I mean? And that's I don't I don't
everybody not everybody gets that, and I think that's a
really beautiful thing. But yeah, that's it was. Yeah, that's

(55:42):
when we Japan will always hold a special place in
my heart because that's kind of when we decided, all right,
let's do this.

Speaker 1 (55:51):
Okay, Saint Paul and the broken bones starts to happen.
Does your wife continue to work? Is she's still working now?

Speaker 2 (56:00):
Yes? She she? I mean she had to. I mean,
you know, this our business, like I make a decent
living and I live in Alabama, but it ain't you
know what I mean, we make it work and uh
so we have we have to have two incomes though.
I mean, unfortunately, my wife moved to the nonprofit sector

(56:21):
here recently, you know, not you know a few years ago,
and unfortunately, as I'm sure a lot of people know,
that sector has been decimated here, uh since January. And
so she is, she's she's she's sad to start her
own thing and everything, but she yeah, she's been. I'm

(56:41):
proud of her. But it's been a it's been a
long journey.

Speaker 1 (56:45):
Okay. Alabama is a unique place. I certainly know people
live in Birmingham, very sophisticated. Okay, but when it comes
to states and esteem and the rest of the population
you got there, Mississippi, Alabama, maybe Louisiana. So tell us
about Alabama and what people who don't live there don't

(57:07):
get about it.

Speaker 2 (57:09):
What they don't get about it. People can be really
kind here. I know, Southern hospitality is a real thing.
I think that you. I think people would be surprised
by you know, there's if when your neighbors with somebody
like you would take the shirt off your back and

(57:31):
and help, you know what I mean, and help people.
I think that's part of it. Uh though I don't
it's funny. I think a lot of people go they
go to the intelligent stuff. But I like to point
out that we build, you know, build rockets in Huntsville,
so we have literal rockets, scientists that live in the state.
So it isn't all you know what I mean. It

(57:53):
ain't all overalls and hayseeds and racism, you know. So
it's a it's a I I have my issues with it,
of course I live here, but I also it's a
beautiful state. I have, it's affordable and you can have

(58:13):
I mean, to me, what's really interesting is in Birmingham
we have one of the best hospitals in the country.
We have great education in Birmingham or you know, around Birmingham.
So I think people it's honestly like it's a great
it is. It is a great place to live. And
I don't think I think people kind of him in Hall,
especially up in the northeast. But it's like, no, there

(58:38):
are good things that happen here, and there's also bad
things that happen here.

Speaker 1 (58:43):
Okay, you have this buddy. The buddy says he's gonna
move on, let's record our stuff as an EP. What
happens then.

Speaker 2 (58:54):
Well, uh he he is the social butterfly, so he
knows everybody else is gonna play on the record, and
so he browan who's the guitar player in this band? Alan,
who's the trumpet player in this band? And he knew
the trombone player and the drummer. And we all, you know,
we had to see it through, you know what I mean.

(59:15):
Once we started making it, we went, uh oh, we
got to see this through.

Speaker 1 (59:19):
Okay, let me let me just stop for a second.
You're with the woman. She becomes your wife at some point,
I don't know when, but you're with hers solidly you're
going to school. What is going on in your musical life?
Are you still playing open? What is going on before
you decide to make this EP?

Speaker 2 (59:36):
Me and Jesse are playing together, and we'd play at
his house and we'd do little coffee shop events and
stuff like that, Like there's really not It wasn't anything
of major scale for sure, and so we we we
are just doing that and we'd I played his house
and so on and so forth.

Speaker 1 (59:55):
Okay, is the dream there at all? Is it still there?
Is the hunger still there? What's going through your mind?

Speaker 2 (01:00:07):
The dream was to sell out a Bottle Tree Cafe
in Birmingham, Alabama, which was a two hundred and ten
cap room. That was the dream. I mean, to this day,
the only thing I have framed from our career is
the sold out sign when we sold that place out
one time. That was the dream. So it's I don't

(01:00:30):
want to say your goals changed though, right Like you
accomplish that and you go, all right, what's next? And
then it was like, oh, really I work security at Bonnaroo.
I want to play Bonnaroe. W Well, we played Bonnarue
in twenty fourteen, and then you know, and now the
goal is Red Rocks and we and we want to
headline Red Rocks. That's the goal now with this band.
And so we've just changed the goals. So the U

(01:00:52):
the drive's still there. The drive still there is just
we just have had to change the goals a few times,
which is an amazing feeling.

Speaker 1 (01:01:01):
Okay, let's go back, you're gonna record this EP. Jesse's
a social butterfly, starts pulling the people together. So what happens?

Speaker 2 (01:01:13):
So we do a so we're you know, we we
start selling selling real tickets in Birmingham, you know what
I mean? Like we did what?

Speaker 1 (01:01:22):
Whoa wha wha wait wait you're playing with Jesse in
his house. Yeah, how do you end up selling tickets?
Is the EP done and people wear the EP? Or
do you start playing out?

Speaker 2 (01:01:31):
How do you start playing out? We started the EP,
you know, it's not really done, but we start playing out.

Speaker 1 (01:01:36):
And is it a big band? Like it turns out
to be?

Speaker 2 (01:01:38):
Yeah, it's it was at that point. I think it
was six At that point. I don't think we had
it and it's all original material, all original material for
the most part. Now we did because we played the
same place like once every two weeks, which is not
just supposed to do right. We did start doing things
where we would do like Otis Blo in its entirety

(01:02:02):
or a Wilson Pickett record in its entirety, just to
like change it up, you know what I mean, like
chant chant, to do something different. So we did that.
We did that as well. So but for a large
part of it was I mean, we we were touring on.
We were doing original materials then throwing a cover in there,
you know, ever so often.

Speaker 1 (01:02:23):
Okay, so what's the timeline you start to make this record?
You have a band, you start playing out, how long
does it take till the record is finished? And then
what happens after that?

Speaker 2 (01:02:34):
So the EP gets done, it's a pretty easy you
know that there's nobody's releasing it. We just have it.
We own it. There's nothing nothing to it, right, We're
we're not chasing management or anything like that. We just
have it. Uh. But what's interesting is we had a
friend of Jesse's or a friend of ours, had this

(01:02:55):
I think it was called Rhythm and Roots televised thing
and Nash and that that's it was. And she had
reached out to Jesse and was like, hey, would y'all
be interested in doing this, and and we were like, sure,
why not? And so, I mean, there's the clips out
there of a song that we had to make up
the day before because we didn't have enough material to play.

(01:03:18):
But some uh are someone saw the video of us,
said when that video went out, someone saw that video
and they reached out and said and they knew Brown
and they reached out and said, hey, is this serious?
And and and it was uh, it was Tracy who
was a manager, and she was you know, and she

(01:03:39):
she uh then that then once she got involved, everything changed.
Go tell me, well, I mean she she you know,
she knew she had she she manages Jason Isbell and
you know, Jason, Jason is what Jason is. At that time,
he wasn't you know what I mean, he was just

(01:03:59):
kind of starting for him. But she knew, she she
you know, she knew like, hey, we got to get
a booking agent. We have to you know, see what
the label situation. But we had met funny enough, we
had met single Lock a month or two before we
met her. So we had single Locks like, hey, we'll
get you a van. And we were like, okay, sounds great.

(01:04:22):
That sounds like a great record deal. And so we
we we did that. We we uh so we had
to deal with them and made a record, then made
a record with them and with Ben Tanner and so
we you know, it was you had to navigate all
that and it was just get on the road.

Speaker 1 (01:04:39):
Okay, Just could be clear. How did Single Lock find
out about you? And how many gigs had you done
before they did?

Speaker 2 (01:04:46):
How many ge We had only done maybe fifteen to
twenty gigs before Single Lock found out about us, which
wasn't a lot that not as a band. You know,
everybody else in the band had played, you know, ton
I had, but as a band, we hadn't played a lot.
So but single locke Ben Tanner and you know browing
the guitar players from Muscle shoals from that area, so

(01:05:09):
from Florence and so he he knew Ben and they
reached out and and uh and we were like, I
mean nobody was, no one cared, you know what I'm saying, Like,
no one cared. And so we were like, oh, yeah,
someone's interested, and they're like gonna provide us free recording
time and a free van, and it's like, yeah, these

(01:05:29):
are our guys. And then then that happened, and then
I would say about two months later we Tracy, Tracy
found out about us, and it kind of all but
it was just and then it was just like tour,
get on the road.

Speaker 1 (01:05:44):
Wait a second, you have a professional manager, but it's
not like you've been on the road regularly, have a
lot of recordings. You want to tour. Who the hell
is gonna book you? Where the hell you gonna play?

Speaker 2 (01:05:56):
Great question, my friend, that's a great question. Uh we
we I mean we uh we were booking in our
sales for a hot minute. But once Tracy got involved,
it was very much like we got to get a
booking agent to handle this. And and so once we
it's went south by southwest you still did that thing,

(01:06:18):
you know, and you'd go down there and we got
hooked up with a high road touring Frank Riley and
Brian Jonas and Brian's Brian's one of my favorite people
on the planet and he's the books us to this day.
And it was just anything and we did anything. We
would We would play by Misfah's, we would play weddings,

(01:06:42):
we would do if there was I mean, if there
was money at all, anything we'd go do it, and
and that really we had had a record. We'd had
our debut record, Half the City, cut in January because
the band started in July twenty twenty twelve, and then
we had had a full length album recorded by January

(01:07:04):
twenty thirteen. But we sat on that record for a
whole year and toured on a record that wasn't out.

Speaker 1 (01:07:10):
When was the logic there?

Speaker 2 (01:07:13):
I think it was. I mean, I think it was
just getting getting it. We were kind of, you know,
we were greener than Goose shit, and we needed to
get some shows under our belt.

Speaker 1 (01:07:22):
And in that year, how many times did the band play?

Speaker 2 (01:07:28):
Oh, I don't know, it was. I mean I know
in twenty fourteen when Half the City came out, we
were out three hundred days.

Speaker 1 (01:07:40):
Okay, just to stay there, let's go back. You have
a professional manager, Tracy, you have this deal with single
Locke sit on it for you. What does she then

(01:08:01):
say about getting a record deal?

Speaker 2 (01:08:04):
Well, I mean we we had the single lock thing,
so she's she. I think her thing was like, hey,
we need to get thirty Tigers involved, and we did
and they were a great partner, and so that really
I think that process helped. So there that was the
That was the label, you know what I mean, Single
lock was the label. And and then thirty Tigers came
in and I think helped with a lot of a

(01:08:25):
lot of things as well. So it was a it
was an interesting thing, you know what I mean, because we,
like I said, we didn't know our ass from the
hole in the ground. So we we were like, someone's interested, great,
you know what I mean, And so we figured we
got that figured out, and it you know, and it
and so we tour twenty thirteen. I mean it was

(01:08:47):
I mean, I was I don't know, I was gone.
I remember being home a lot and uh. And then
we turned around and did it again the next year
when Half the City came out in February twenty fourteen.

Speaker 1 (01:08:57):
Okay, there are eight people in the band, where there
were six at at time. You're an unknown act going
on the road. How the hell do you make it
work economically?

Speaker 2 (01:09:08):
Well, you got a wife. Our girlfriend is living at home,
working a job in our one bedroom apartment. I had that.

Speaker 1 (01:09:17):
What about the other members of the bed They all,
we all all.

Speaker 2 (01:09:20):
Of them kept their jobs, you know what I mean,
or we all had to. Luckily, Jesse worked for a
music shop that he knew really well, and they were
very understanding, you know what I mean, And Browing was
painting houses. A couple of guys were still in college
sort of, so they I think one took an online

(01:09:43):
Like we just made it work, you know what I mean,
whether we had to, we just we knew, just made
it work.

Speaker 1 (01:09:50):
It's hard enough to keep a three or four piece
being together. How do you keep an eight piece being together?

Speaker 2 (01:10:01):
You share the revenue, but.

Speaker 1 (01:10:03):
Even someone's got a piece with eight ways, I agree
with you.

Speaker 2 (01:10:08):
Like I said, I ain't a millionaire, you know what
I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:10:12):
Okay, so there been some band member changes. Is it
because somebody came and said, you know, I love this,
I just can't do this anymore. I don't have any money.
Or did you basically say hey, we want to make
a change. How did the members change?

Speaker 2 (01:10:28):
It was each one had, you know, had its own thing,
like we had some We had some to say, hey,
they just weren't fit for touring like that. And to
be fair, I don't know a lot of people who
were fit to tour three hundred days out of the year,
you know what I mean, Like, I really don't. It's
a really hard thing to do. Luckily we're not at
that point now. But yay, we had some and then

(01:10:50):
we had some that, like you know, it's there needed
to be a change made, whether you know there was
personal thing, you know what I mean, you know how
it is. We've we've only we've had we have change
drummer and trombone player and that's that's it.

Speaker 1 (01:11:05):
Okay, So how many people in the band today? Eight
and you've only changed two members in the whole time we.

Speaker 2 (01:11:12):
Had Yeah, well we had a saxophone player in but
he it was kind of one of the it was
kind of one of us that he had a family.
So it's yeah, of the original six.

Speaker 1 (01:11:23):
Yes, just too okay, So you have these eight people,
you go on the road, just split the money eight ways,
whatever the net may be.

Speaker 2 (01:11:34):
Well, it's tricky because we have we have five we
have owners in the LLC, right, some are not owners,
some or not. It's really it's actually fairly complicated. I
feel bad for our business manager, but you know, that's
why they get paid. So we have five owners that

(01:11:55):
were a part of the original, uh situation, and then
we have three who are not.

Speaker 1 (01:12:01):
Okay, so there are three side men. So pay on
the road is different. Yes, what about on the records?
Same thing?

Speaker 3 (01:12:07):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:12:08):
We uh like this last record we went uh thirty ten.
I got thirty percent, they got ten.

Speaker 1 (01:12:15):
All explain that to me?

Speaker 2 (01:12:20):
Meaning that so when we wrote the songs or Royal
Royalty side and writing side, we just do a flat
thirty thirty. I get thirty percent and then each other
member gets ten percent.

Speaker 1 (01:12:34):
Okay, how'd you come up with thirty? How'd you come
up with the numbers?

Speaker 2 (01:12:37):
Well, it just makes well because it's a nice round number. Typically,
when you write lyrics, you know, they people are like, oh,
fifty percent, and it just can't. That can't work in
our in our world, you just can't. I can't take
fifty percent.

Speaker 1 (01:12:52):
So you're writing No one else is writing lyrics?

Speaker 2 (01:12:55):
Uh no, no, no, and oh ok with the band songs.

Speaker 1 (01:13:01):
Okay, when you go to write a song, this is
like Elton John time. What comes first? The lyrics are
the music.

Speaker 2 (01:13:12):
It varies. Sometimes there's a phrase that makes sense, and
then sometimes the music makes sense. You know what I mean.
You just kind of build it from either way and
go from there.

Speaker 1 (01:13:22):
Okay, so let's go back. We're in this narrative. Does
the Letterman appearance happen.

Speaker 2 (01:13:31):
Funny enough, the Letterman appearance was a blessing and a
curse because we that appearance happened January twenty fifteen. We've
already toured a year on our debut record, okay, so
we were already pray to the end. So it was
January twenty fifteen, and then the Letterman thing happens, and

(01:13:55):
we're like, oh my god, we got to get back
out on the road, you know what I mean. And
I mean it was amazing, it was, and I'm so
grateful for but it was It's like we were kind
of at the tail end, you know what I mean.
Like we were like, hey, we had a great run.
That was a lot of fun. We're selling you know,
two to four hundred ticket, two hundred to four hundred
tickets in a market, which is great, right, that's a

(01:14:17):
great that's a fun place to be, you know. And
then the Letterman thing happens and we're like, oh, okay,
we got to keep going because you have to capitalize
on them.

Speaker 1 (01:14:30):
Okay. I don't know who you are. All of a sudden,
my email starts blowing up about this Letterman appearance. What
was it like on your side of the fence.

Speaker 2 (01:14:42):
I mean, it was a TV appearance. I don't know
what you know what I mean, way we do what
we do, like, I don't. I the only thing because
I didn't, I didn't watch it because it's it's it's
kind of tough watching yourself perform on television. But what
I remember about it is he does this amazing intro
at the top of the before we play. It's an

(01:15:04):
amazing intro, and I thought, you know, not doing much TV.
I just thought, oh they cut that part out and
then he just you know, and then it's the introduction, right,
And then I heard the introduction was still in there,
and then I was like, oh my god, Like that
is a game changer, you know what I mean. I don't.
For me, like, I don't think the performance was particularly amazing,

(01:15:25):
you know what I mean, it was kind of what
we do at that point. I mean, I actually think
we do better now than we did that we did then.
But I knew with that introduction being a part of it,
I was like, Okay, this is this could do do something.
And it did.

Speaker 1 (01:15:43):
Okay, it's a different era ten years ago. TV means
something doesn't really mean anything today, right, you hear you're
gonna be a Letterman before you even go on. What
do you think? I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:15:57):
I mean I'm happy, you know what I mean, Like
I don't I mean, I'm thrilled that we're getting I mean,
we put it.

Speaker 1 (01:16:05):
A different way. Anybody who's been in this world knows
that your big break is not usually what you expected
to be. You say, oh, this is gonna and then
you do it, nothing happens, and then there are things
you may not even want to do that turn into
a big thing. But at the time, being on a
Letterman was you know, a top slot. So were you thinking, well,

(01:16:30):
you know that this could really turn into something.

Speaker 2 (01:16:33):
I know, I knew that it was important. I mean,
don't get me wrong, Like I knew that it was
an important thing, but I just, I mean, we were
so afraid it was the end of that, you know,
I mean the end of twenty fourteen. I'd just gotten
married like a month before the Letterman performance, and I was,
I mean, I was. It was just like it was
just like going to another gig. It was like, you know,

(01:16:54):
you knew it was important and you knew you had
to do it, but it wasn't something that I thought, oh, well,
this is going to change the game. I was honored.
I always wanted to do Conan O'Brien, like that was
my goal because I loved Conan O'Brien, which we ended
up doing. And so Letterman, I mean I understood the
history of it and all that, but I just it

(01:17:16):
was I don't know, you know what I mean, Like
it's one of those things like I didn't I didn't
think it would have the impact it did for sure.
I mean there's two things that we've done that we
just rolled up and did, and that is that and
a Tiny Desk are the two things that we have
done that I hear about more than anything. And it's
just funny thinking back to it, because like it wasn't
like this big like we're about to we're about to

(01:17:38):
do Letterman, you know what I mean, Or we're about
to do Tiny Desk. It was like, oh, or we're
here to play. We do the thing, like that's what
we did.

Speaker 1 (01:17:47):
Okay, So going back to Letterman, you do it, you
talk about the curse element that you have to capitalize
on it. So how much did you work after Letterman for.

Speaker 2 (01:17:55):
The rest of the year. I mean, we we had to.
It was hard to find time because you know, it's like, hey,
you gotta make a new record, right, But it was
hard to find time. I never forget we were, you know,
trying to find some other producer or well, you know
what I mean. And man, it was just like it
was two days of something that we fit in a
tour and it was just like, how can you even
tell what's going on? So eventually you just have to

(01:18:18):
learn the word no and uh, which is a hard
thing to do in that moment. And so we had
to carve out time. But yeah, I mean, basically because
it was so impactful, we had to turn around and
go back on tour and start keep playing shows. And
we played and played and blade and then we finally
found some time I think towards towards the winner of
twenty twenty fifteen or twenty sixteen.

Speaker 1 (01:18:41):
Okay, a being this large, it's a dynamic enterprise. Certainly
you've been doing it in excess of a decade at
this point in time. Can you open for somebody or
do you have to be the headline or how does
it work? We can open, That's not what I mean.

(01:19:01):
Of course you can open, but can someone follow you.

Speaker 2 (01:19:06):
I hope not. I hope not. I hope. I hope
when we open up for people that they go, all right,
don't have to bring my working boots today.

Speaker 1 (01:19:18):
So at this point in time, how many dates a
year do you work?

Speaker 2 (01:19:23):
M I'd say we're still at one hundred and fifty
or so.

Speaker 1 (01:19:28):
And of that one hundred and fifty, how many times
are you the headliner?

Speaker 2 (01:19:33):
M I would say seventy to eighty percent.

Speaker 1 (01:19:40):
Okay, you go to a show. Every show is different,
even if the set list is identical. Do you basically
say I know what we do, like hit the stage
and we do it or are you judging audience reaction
and if they're not with you reach out and grab them.

Speaker 2 (01:20:04):
I mean to me, it's about entertaining the audience, right,
I think one skill. You know, I'm not a bad singer,
but I think one skill I do have and I
definitely learned it in churches, how to read a crowd.
And we have had moments where it's like this crowd
ain't here and we got to figure out how to
get them. So that's what we do. We get them,

(01:20:26):
you know, we we either we change the set. I'll
change the set mid mid show and we will. You know,
we're you know, we're live musicians. There ain't no tracks,
so we can do that. We can. It ain't a
hard thing to be like, hey, we're gonna play something
else different on this next you know, this next song
to try and grab the audience. And it depends. I mean,
early on, people didn't know who we were, so yeah,

(01:20:48):
you're definitely like you gotta grab. I was my my
philosophy early on is if someone came and saw us,
you're either leaving or staying, and that's it. There ain't
no I'm gonna You're gonna either be a part of this,
You're getting out of here, and that's it. That's your
only options. And uh, and that was the that was
the thought and the theory. Then now you know, we're
a little bit more well known, so it's you know,

(01:21:11):
they kind of people know kind of what to expect,
and you try to do something in the show that
they don't expect, and you try to change the set.
You know, we look at the top five stream songs
on Spotify and we make sure we play those songs
and then everything else is up for grabs, and so
we try to make the show you know, we have
people to see us twelve times and so we need

(01:21:31):
to you know, change it up a little bit. But yeah,
I still man, I still want the audience. I want
it is a way better playing to an audience that
you that you have had, that you've gotten to not
and uh and I still I still want. I still
treat it. I don't treat it much differently in that
you win one person at a time. So if there's
somebody in the front row that's not having a good time,

(01:21:53):
you're either gonna stay or you're gonna leave. But I'm
gonna pay attention, you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:21:57):
A little bit more specific. When you try to win
over people in the audience, other than changing the set list,
what do you literally do to try to get them
on board?

Speaker 2 (01:22:08):
I mean, I'll go go to them, get in the audience,
go say hello, Go you know what I mean, Like
get in there, get in their face a little bit,
you know what I mean, Like engage with them, make
sure that they know that, make sure that they know
that you know, they exist, and you get I get
within it, and then you you know, like there's certain

(01:22:29):
moments now where we know, like there's a big note
coming right that I'm gonna sing and I'll know then
like okay, that either gets somewhere it doesn't, or do
something kind of funny or goofy and it makes them laugh,
you know what I mean? Just whatever, that's I feel
like that's the job, right, Like, if you can't do that,
what the hell are you doing on stage? You know,

(01:22:50):
doing the lead singer thing?

Speaker 1 (01:22:58):
And how do you get hooked up with? Ron Perry
and Barry Weiss?

Speaker 2 (01:23:01):
They just you know, were fans of the first record
and they they they reached out and signed us. They
you know, Ron was ain't r for songs and got
us on board with the publishing and it was a
good relationship from there.

Speaker 1 (01:23:16):
Were they the only ones interested? No, so you're on
Letterman all of a sudden the phone starts to ring
to houst the cliche.

Speaker 2 (01:23:25):
Yeah, that that I think with half the city, and
then the Letterman thing happened. Yeah, there was plenty of people,
But I mean, to be fair, we were with songs.
I this is what I remember. This is so funny.
I was literally in New York and we had got
we had gotten our songs. You would have been with songs,
and we got paid our advance that's that fourth quarter
of twenty fourteen. And I remember getting a tax bill

(01:23:48):
while I was in New York before Letterman, so I
was I could just tell you, my friend, it was not.
I was like, oh my god. When I got that
TAXI be and have a wife for like, hang on
what now? You know you think about all the things
you're going through with the money, and then you get
that tax Ben You're like, no, no, a lot of

(01:24:08):
that's going to taxes.

Speaker 1 (01:24:10):
Do you own a house?

Speaker 2 (01:24:11):
I do? I do? I mean I own a house.
And that's why we were living in Alabama. Man, it's
a lot more affordable. Uh and I sure do.

Speaker 1 (01:24:22):
Okay, what made you go with songs and records as
opposed to anybody else?

Speaker 2 (01:24:29):
That's what they sold us. You know, we kind of
thought in our minds like, you know, we had creative
control whatever that means these days, you know, I've I've
learned since that creative control is one of those things
like yeah, you can have it and you can do
what you want. But they got if they don't put
money behind it, it don't matter, you know what I mean.

(01:24:50):
I think we just had a good relationship. But I
think I mean this day, like at the solo things
with Barry. You know, Ron's moved on to Columbia, but
like the solo things with Barry and he you know,
he's we still have I think we still have a
decent relationship.

Speaker 1 (01:25:04):
And so okay, these are two guys, very experienced. Yes,
what degree did they give you input or did they
leave you alone?

Speaker 2 (01:25:13):
I mean they they cared. I mean, there's no doubt
about that. I mean, I think you know what I mean,
like they they had their thoughts on things, but they
I mean, we did what we wanted, you know what
I mean. Like we would either go, yeah, that sounds
great or absolutely not, and we wouldn't do it. And
that's what we would do. And for the most part,

(01:25:34):
it wasn't that bad, you know, I think I think
there was, but this is this is my thing, and
this is what I say. Like, were there times that
I think they probably had, you know, a vision for
the band that the band wasn't Yeah, of course, but
I don't. Their goal was to make the band huge,
you know what I mean. It wasn't. It wasn't to
be like, oh, you know, I want to It's like
they wanted it to be huge, and they had their

(01:25:55):
idea what that is and and and it was probably
a little bit different than the band thought to some degree.
But I mean our third record was we met the
producer through them, you know what I mean. So like,
I don't know, I don't that relationship. I don't. I
don't really regret that much at all, and still have
it with Bear Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:26:14):
Yeah, eight members in the band, five were in the LLC.
Everyone does not agree all the time. How do you
decide on decisions?

Speaker 2 (01:26:24):
This is how we this is how we kind of work.
I get to be president, okay, and then we got Congress, right,
and sometimes Congress can maybe overrule, but they all understand it.
If I don't, I'm not into it, it probably ain't
gonna happen, uh, you know what I mean. So that's
kind of how it works. I do my damnedest to

(01:26:48):
make sure that they are heard and their input is
considered one hundred percent, and it needs to be because
sometime there's been moments where I thought something was the
right idea and they said something. I'm like, well that's
a really good point, you know what I mean. But
ultimately small things they don't care. They're like, Paul, do
your thing when it comes to big decisions like record

(01:27:08):
labels and management and stuff like that, they are one
hundred percent. They have input and they have say and
that's kind of how we It's worked well that way.
I mean, obviously we're still here, right and we have
a system in place that has worked. But they kind
of for the most part, they kind of leave me,
you know, they'll leave me to it. And I enjoy it.
I enjoy the business aspect of this, I really do.

(01:27:32):
I think it's a fact, is an incredibly fascinating business.
It is an ever changing business. And and so I'm
able to kind of compartmentalize the business side and the
creative side. I don't I don't let them bleed, because
the moment you start doing that's the moment you start
getting in trouble.

Speaker 1 (01:27:48):
How did it become same Pawn, the Broken Bones, the
name and how many other names before that?

Speaker 2 (01:27:54):
Well, Jesse the bass player came up with a name
because of this, you know. He he wanted like Martha
Reeves and the Vandellas, you know what I mean, he
want and uh, you know, and I was like whatever,
and he was, you know, the Saint Paul, Saint Paul
thing about the church background and all that kind of stuff,
and then the Broken Bones. I mean, the first song

(01:28:15):
we wrote together for this was Broken Bones, and Pocket
Change was is a song on the first record and
the EP, and it it kind of made sense. And
I mean it was one of those that was it
and it was one of those names that stayed. We
never thought anything about it. We just oh, we'll change
the name later, and then later never came. And that's
what we are now.

Speaker 1 (01:28:37):
Okay, you've traveled the world. You came to popular culture late,
but you must have had pinched me moments meeting certain people.
Can you tell me about that?

Speaker 2 (01:28:49):
Oh? Absolutely. I mean we've gotten to meet Elton John.
This is the name drop part of that. This is
the name drop part right. Yeah, you know we've gotten
to meet Elton John. We've gotten to meet the Rolling Stones,
we opened up for them a few times. I mean,
we've gotten to meet Herbie Hancock, someone that we really,

(01:29:13):
really really admire. We've gotten to meet all sorts of
folks and and honestly, you know, I I look at someone.
We got to we got to do something. If there's
a local or it's not local, it's the egal Justice Initiative,
which is in Montgomery, Alabama. We got to meet a
guy named Brian Stevenson, who I think is one of
the one of my heroes, you know, just heroes people

(01:29:34):
like that. Those are the people more that I admire.
Musicians are great. I love meet, Don't get me wrong, Like,
there ain't a lot of people that have met Elton
John and the Rolling Stalls. You know, I get that,
and I understand that. But for me, it's it's more
people that that kind of dedicate their life life to
service that I really do admire. But yeah, I've gotten
to meet all sorts of people. Man, I've gotten to
meet all sorts of people that I never thought in

(01:29:54):
a thousand years that I would meet.

Speaker 1 (01:29:57):
And Okay, Elton is a real MU music fan, and
he's gonna know who you are. He will have listened
to your music, you know. Well, let's put it this way.
I know the promoters of the Stones, okay, and the
Stone I know people. Let's put it this way. Did
you meet Mick and Keith and did they know who
you were?

Speaker 2 (01:30:17):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:30:18):
Yes, that must have felt that must have made like wow,
Well I.

Speaker 2 (01:30:22):
Didn't grow up with the Rolling Stones, so I was
like cool. Now, let me tell you this. The rest
of the guys in the band were shitting their pants.
I mean they they they were like, oh my good,
like they were nervous. I was just kind of like,
I mean it was I knew it was cool, and
I'm not trying to downplay it. I'm really not. But
I didn't grow up with them, you know what I mean.
I didn't grow up with them. So Keith uh was

(01:30:47):
a big fan of was. I had an interview with
the Rolling Stones writer that was like, Hey, I have
asked Keith for many years what his favorite band, new
up and coming band is, and he never gives me
an answer. And he said, y'all's name the time, and
he's like, so I had to interview you to see
what the hell is this about? And I was just
like cool, I mean, you know, but you know Kisa

(01:31:08):
Old he loves Otis Redding and you know, he's got
you know what I mean, Like he loves that stuff.
And so they were super nice and I got to
hang out with them a little bit and and yeah,
it was it was a pretty amazing experience.

Speaker 1 (01:31:22):
Okay, see you make this leads record. You're working with
thirty Tigers, which is more of a marketing enterprise. What's
the budget for this record?

Speaker 2 (01:31:31):
What is the budget? I mean it's it's six digits,
you know, it's mid six digits.

Speaker 1 (01:31:41):
And it's all your money.

Speaker 2 (01:31:43):
Oh yeah, well, I mean yeah, so you know how
that works? Like right, you know, like yes, sort of?

Speaker 1 (01:31:52):
Well did you have to save up the money?

Speaker 2 (01:31:54):
No, we did not have to save up the money. No,
we got it. We got it from we got it
from thirty tigers.

Speaker 1 (01:32:00):
Okay, so let's go back to what you were saying,
being with you still have a solo deal? Does Barry
expect you to make a record.

Speaker 2 (01:32:10):
We're working on? I mean, we're working. They're not. They
they are. They're patient, man, They're patient, you know what
I mean. Like they they're just like they want the
right song, right thing.

Speaker 1 (01:32:20):
What's going to be different about that as opposed to
a band record?

Speaker 2 (01:32:24):
I mean, it's not within the band enterprise, you know
what I mean, Like, it's not it's working with another
producer or you know, maybe maybe a third in the room,
you know what I mean? Like whatever, whatever it might be,
I don't I don't. I think that's the problem with
that project in general is that I'm not really sure.
But they're they're really patient, which I'm grateful for, you

(01:32:47):
know what I mean, Like they're not pressing me like hey,
we gotta we gotta get you know what I mean.
Like something will pop up and I'll be like, yeah,
hey that sounds you know, if I like the song,
if I like the producer or a song or whatever
it might be, I'll be like, yeah, let's let's give
it a try. See if I like getting. If I don't,
then we go from there. But they're not They're not
in any hurry.

Speaker 1 (01:33:03):
Okay, So tell me again how you meet Egg and
how that proceeds.

Speaker 2 (01:33:08):
So I was with it was working on the solo,
this working solo stuff, and he they flied me out
to London and I work with a few people and
it was it was kind of a disaster trip in
a lot of ways. But the last day I work
with Egg and we write this song and it's it's

(01:33:31):
not on the record, but it was a great song.
And then and we were just like oh, and I
think Barry and Everybody's like ooh, that song, that's it,
you know what I mean, Like wow, And so I
go back over there and then I think, what kind
of happens we write together. We write a lot of
stuff together. It kind of I think with Barry and them,

(01:33:51):
they kind of go okay, like this stuff's good, but
you know, I don't think it really got them going.
So we're like, okay, we'll is whatever right, you know,
like whatever, just kind of sitting in it. Then some
of the guys in the band here the songs, and
they go what the hell is going on here? Like
why are we not? You know? And I was like, well,

(01:34:13):
you know, it's just where it goes, which you know
is definitely frustrated in there, you know what I mean.
But it's like, hey, what do you do? So the band?
Here is it? We have? We started having a discussion.
We talked to records like, hey, is it okay if
we get a song or two of these you know
what I mean? Like, which they were fine with. And

(01:34:35):
then then uh then it then it turned into the
band gets together rights. Then we're going, who's producing this record?
And Egg hadn't produced the band record since the nineties.
Oh it was like you know what I mean, like
he he did doesn't leave London, he just doesn't. And
so we I was like, oh and we had back.

(01:34:56):
We were already talking about like backup. But I was like, hey,
you know, everyone's like, well, let's just see if he's
interested in producing. He's made these cool, cool, good sounding demos.
So we were like maybe. And I was like, hey,
all right, I want we want you to produce this
record band songs and a couple of me and him songs.
Would you be willing to come to Alabama to Fame

(01:35:18):
studios and record and produce? And he was He was
like that sounds like a great idea. I just have
to figure out who's gonna walk my dog? And I
was like what, and that's that's And once he figured
that out, he he said yes, and he came over

(01:35:38):
and it was an amazing experience.

Speaker 1 (01:35:40):
Okay, let's go back. Yeah, how those songs you wrote
with egg? When you start writing songs with the band,
how do you do that? What does that look like?

Speaker 2 (01:35:50):
We just we were we were we There was a
studio up in in uh in muscle shows that we
could did. We have a really great rate on We
know the the engineer that works there, and we go.
It's funny. Birmingham used to be the place where we
could all meet and not have to pay for hotels.
But Now Muscle Sholes is because we have a few
people that live there and we can stay at their houses.
So we stay up there basically for free, and we

(01:36:15):
just rent the studio for not it's not it's nothing.
And we just sit in the room and write and
we can record this great because we can record the
demos and it's a really cheap rate and it's and
we have an engineer there, and so we just sit
in the room and write and we just see what happens.

Speaker 1 (01:36:32):
Okay, Sheffield, Alabama, Muscle Shoals, Florence legendary place. Is there
really anything there, anything special? Or just the fact that
the swampers just happen to be there?

Speaker 2 (01:36:49):
Now, why would you ask a question like that. Of course,
it's all in the water. You just take a dip
of the water and you drink it and everyone can
play amazing music. That's what happens. Uh That. No, I
think I think truly what it is is you know
that especially was a moment in time, right. But I

(01:37:10):
also think here's the thing about muscle that area and
people And I know I get it, people are playing
in studios less and less, you know, doing home stuff
and stuff like that. But you have world class studios
that are still up and running and are maintained for
the most part now because of grants and all sorts
of stuff. And they're fairly inexpensive compared to a Nashville

(01:37:34):
or LA or places like that. So it economically, it
just makes way more sense. And the other thing, there
ain't as many distractions up there as there is in
Nashville or LA. There ain't no ain't nobody gonna have
a meeting in muscle Shoals. Ain't nobody gonna have to
go talk to the Spotify people in muscle Shoals, do
you know what I mean? And so you have the

(01:37:55):
ability to just sit and play. I mean, that's for us.
It makes sense for us, Like we don't go to
Nashville to do that. We don't go down you know
what I mean, Like we don't go to Birmingham now
because it just makes way more economic sense to go
up to muscle shows and for what especially for what
we do. And there's people there that work, you know
what I mean. Like there there is still you do feel,

(01:38:18):
especially being from here, and it's a region, it's regional, right,
being from here, there is a you do feel like
that there's people walk in the street, you know, like
Davidhood and all Spooner Old and all these guys who
play down you know, they used to do a gig
at the you know, on a Friday night, who've played
on records that you could never even dream about playing on,

(01:38:39):
you know what I mean. And there is that legacy,
and some of the guys that grew up there like
just what you grow up around, and so there is
there is a maybe a legacy to uphall uphold that
you feel that obligation a little bit, you know, not
that I don't necessarily feel like we're a part of
that or anything, a very small part maybe, but that

(01:39:01):
that is that is real, you know what I mean.
But as far as like I mean, how many people
just sitting in a room, I mean, it's a special
moment in time and just playing and and you have
to have talent, of course, but there's yeah, to me,
and especially with our band, it's about chemistry and that
that's hard to come by, you know, And I don't
think a lot of people do it as much anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:39:28):
Okay, recall had theme, everybody played it fame and then
a bunch of guys went over and created Muscle Shoal
Sound Studios. How'd you end up with? Theme? Does Muscle
Shoal Sound Studios really exist anymore?

Speaker 2 (01:39:44):
It does? It's it is muscle show sound, like I
want to say, is it doctor dre or somebody put
a lot of money into it and it's it's revamped.
It's it is more museine Zen MUSEUMI I guess, more
more of a music zim type place. But you can
you can record in there. I mean they're still they
have an engineer that works there, Like there's you can

(01:40:06):
record it. Muscle shows Sound and Fame I know, has
gone through a lot of work to get to where
they When we first started, it wasn't bad to record there.
It's just like there's there was kind of a lot
of ghost in the machine, you know what I mean,
where you're like you hit the hit hit a button
and you you know what I mean, that kind of thing.
But they've really done an amazing job of making that

(01:40:28):
place a great place to record now for modern times.
So yeah, I mean there's still there's still you can
still do it the old What is funny though about
Fame and this is like I said, I get it.
I know it's it's a point of revenue for them.
The only concession you have to make is they do
tours every day at the studio, so you have you

(01:40:50):
have like a uh like I think it was like
they were really good about it, but you there was
there was usually about a twenty minute part of the
day where they were gonna come to the studio you're recording,
so you had to stop recording and we'd hide in
the in the desk, you know, in the in the
control room.

Speaker 1 (01:41:08):
That's funny, Okay. So how much time did it take
to record the record?

Speaker 2 (01:41:12):
Took a week a week, that is fast. We did well.
I say that I don't want to I don't want
to miss misspeak. We did a week of tracking with
the band and me singing roughs, and then did another
couple days of me singing, and then you know, you
go through your whole process of you know, making the

(01:41:36):
sounds right and all that jazz.

Speaker 1 (01:41:37):
Okay, did egg do any pre production before you went
in the studio?

Speaker 2 (01:41:43):
I mean he brought over I'll tell you this man,
he brought over some damn expensive mics. I know that. Uh,
he brought him in and brought him in in a
duffel Back because he didn't want to check him in,
so he I was like, you carried a duffel Back
with a sixty thousand dollars MiCT and on the airline,
you crazy fella. But he brought some of those. He
had some of those amazing, you know, amazing vocal mics

(01:42:05):
with them. But I mean there was, like I said,
we had we had demoed out pretty you know, we
knew the songs, so we had demoed out pretty good.
But uh, there was a lot of where and I
think I think where he's just incredibly special, especially with
our band, was there were a few songs I was like,
the arrangement just wasn't right, you know what I mean,

(01:42:25):
It just wasn't right. And like any great producer would do,
he was like, hey, this isn't right. Let's and we
experimented and then we found the right and it was
like it made the song good to great and that
that's what was really special about it.

Speaker 1 (01:42:40):
And those are the arrangements. How about you wrote some
songs with him? The are the ones you wrote with
the band? Did he give any input and change to
the other songs?

Speaker 2 (01:42:48):
I mean it was his, That's that was the thing
that me and him talked about was like, this is
your record. You are producing this record. There's not band
songs or egg songs. I think only two ex me
and songs ended up on the record. And he he
he is an like I said, he's a very interesting
person because he knows what he wants and so he

(01:43:13):
he's like, my name is gonna be on this, Like
he put input on everything, which I it was great.
It's great to be challenged. I think at this point
when you you get kind of fat and happy, right
and you think, oh, yeah, I know what to do.
I've been doing this now a few times, and it's like, no,
I like, I like when people challenging. You know, they
don't have to be assholes, but I like getting challenged

(01:43:33):
a bit. And you know, and I think he definitely
did that for everybody in a very uh British way.

Speaker 1 (01:43:43):
Go a little deeper, tell me more.

Speaker 2 (01:43:45):
Well, I mean he would he would I never forget
like vocal producers like him doing vocals with me and
he would uh he would say, oh, you know, he would.
We would talk about soft and hard and he's like, no,
you need to open up more. You need to be
a little bit off tune here, you know what I mean? Like,
which I was like, who in the hell tells you that?
You know what I'm saying? Like like, but he was like,

(01:44:07):
it has more feeling there, that has more you know
what I mean? And he's like, you know, and I
could do head to chest really quick. And so we
had to make that debate like all right, we're going
through the through the head voice, but let's you know,
can you go sweep into from head to voice kind
of you know what I mean? Like all sorts of
stuff is a vocal producer that I was like, this

(01:44:28):
is a new level. Cause sometimes this isn't anock only boby,
but sometimes I go they they either he did he's
singing and go oh well that's great, and it's like, okay,
well if I can do that, then i'd have done
that on my own. I need someone to go, hey,
can you you know what I mean? And he really did.
I know, he challenged me, which I loved. I loved
getting you know what I mean, I really did.

Speaker 1 (01:44:50):
And what'd you do for an engineer?

Speaker 2 (01:44:52):
We got Matt ross Bang, who had produced the last
two records, which Matt ross Bang is an I mean
if you want someone. That's what we were trying to do.
Because we had no idea how it was going to
go with Egg, we it could have been a complete disaster,
you know what I mean. And so I had to
ask Matt Is, like, hey man, can you come in
and and like just make sure that this you know,

(01:45:15):
and because he had done engineering with Dave Cobb and
you know, he's producing now and he produced our other
records and we're we're you know, we're friends outside of this,
and which you know, I didn't know how he'd feel,
but he was. MAT's Matt's amazing and I knew that
organic part that we wanted to capture because we didn't
want it to be a super polished record. Matt being there,

(01:45:37):
I knew would help that process. But we didn't know
how Egg and Matt would work. We didn't know. We
didn't know if that was going to be a disaster,
but it ended up being in the studio one of
the best experiences I've ever had.

Speaker 1 (01:45:52):
What did uh Matt say about being demoted?

Speaker 2 (01:45:57):
He did? He It was one of those one of
those that you're like, I I and I for me,
I was like I understand whatever he says, do you
know what I mean if he's like, hey, man, no,
I've I've produced the last couple of records, Like I
just feel like maybe that's not my thing. But but
I was like, I have to make the call because
I know he's a great fit. And and then he

(01:46:18):
gets compensated for it, right like it's a it's a gig.
So uh, he was Matt. You'd have to know Matt.
He he's a he's a good dude, and and it
was a but yeah, no, I mean I definitely I
didn't I thought he would say no. I mean I did,
because he had produced the last two records and done
a phenomenal job. It was just with the egg stuff
having we didn't know how many of the X songs

(01:46:39):
were going to be on there, and we just thought
it was a it was an interesting fit and uh
and we never knew I didn't know how Matt would
act or react, and Matt's amazing and and and just
to make that work was a really was was I'm ill.
I'll be eternally grateful.

Speaker 1 (01:46:56):
Okay, how long ago was the record cut?

Speaker 2 (01:47:00):
When did we cut this thing? January? So how do
you feel.

Speaker 1 (01:47:04):
About waiting almost a year for the record to come.

Speaker 2 (01:47:06):
Out, buddy, that is it is torture. It is torture.
I mean we went through this thing because it took
us a while to get the sound right, you know,
we just because we did it that way. It took
us a long time to get the mixing right and
wear everything laid. And Egg, once again, is a very

(01:47:29):
particular person, so it took a long time. And Egg's
also super busy. You know, he's doing writing sessions constantly,
so figuring out his schedule and the mats producing stuff
and all of that intertwining. It took much longer than
we thought. So we debated. We were like, okay, we
thought the thing would be out by May or you

(01:47:50):
know whatever, and just that process took a long time.
I mean, what's been beautiful about this is it feels
worth it. If it didn't feel worth it, I'd be
really upset. But we were gonna do a fall tour,
you know, album release tour, and then we kicked it
to the spring. We're doing the European European UK tour

(01:48:11):
and in the winter, so like we this I I
was supposed to not have time for stuff like this
this time of year, but it's just how it fell.

Speaker 1 (01:48:21):
Economically, you guys can afford to stay home.

Speaker 2 (01:48:26):
It's funny you asked that. I'll tell you this. It's
been a lot of Aldie and Turkey sandwiches. Uh, that's
a that's just where we're at. But uh, we we
we we make it work. We can make it work.
We're we're we're doing the best we can as far
as that goes. Like I said, it's affordable to live here,

(01:48:47):
so it makes it. But yeah, you you talk about
thinking you're doing a fall tour and then moving it
to the spring. Yeah, economically that was like who okay, Oki,
But I do think it's the right decision. You just
got to figure it out.

Speaker 1 (01:49:03):
And what does the band mean in the UK and Europe?

Speaker 2 (01:49:07):
Well, uh, the good thing is they're going to service
the record this time. We've had a few of those
where they haven't serviced the record over there. It's been
a trial over there. We haven't given up on it.
We break even. I do. I'm very optimistic about this record.
I'll just I don't Maybe it's just me being a

(01:49:30):
hopeless romantic, but we you know, we can sell two
thousand tickets in London. We sell you know, close to
two thousand in Amsterdam. So we can do okay, But
we've had a few records where just nobody's really worked them,
you know what I mean, Like I can't tell you
that I mean, and which is always really frustrating because

(01:49:53):
that is a market for us that can be something,
but it just hasn't.

Speaker 1 (01:49:57):
So how many tickets do you sell in the US?
What kind of venues.

Speaker 2 (01:50:02):
We I mean, we can sell. I mean it depends.
It's gone down a little bit, but we can sell
we I mean, like we sold out the Beacon Theater
last time we played in New York, which is nothing
to sniff at. Right in the South, we can sell
some tickets, which is not typical of a ton of
artists unless your country. So I would say we're in

(01:50:26):
that like three to fifteen hundred one thousand range.

Speaker 1 (01:50:33):
Okay, Now the record's going to come out. What's going
to be different from any other record? And what are
your hopes this time around? And what are people doing
that they're not doing before? Other than social media?

Speaker 2 (01:50:48):
Well, I mean we've had some people write about sushi
and Coca cola.

Speaker 1 (01:50:52):
Yeah I heard about that.

Speaker 2 (01:50:54):
Did you hear about that? Uh? Yeah, we've had I
told I told I told our team. I was like,
we just need to make that the bio. That's about
the best description. It was scary how these things were
right about it. We were like, oh, I got especially
you brought up money. He's like, yep, he's right. But
we had that which you know, it's funny I heard,
you know, I heard a lot about that, as you

(01:51:14):
can imagine. I think, you know it's I mean, you
know this, and you're in this. You're what makes a
difference anymore. And I really don't know. What I have
come to realize is that you just build your own mountain.
And whether it's through social media or YouTube or whatever
it might be, you build your own mountain, okay, and

(01:51:38):
building your own mountain. Just get good at that. And
I think for us, we have a bunch of live
stuff that were released, like as far as performances that
were releasing around the record were you know, radio stuff
is doing well triple A. But once again, I don't
know what that means anymore. Some of the streaming numbers
have been good, like in our world, been good. It's

(01:52:00):
not like it's you know, you know what I'm saying.
I will say this though we've had two records like
I know what momentum, A little momentum feels like, and
I know what it you know, I know what no
momentum feels like. And I will say there's a little
momentum with this that feels good, especially in the UK
and EU, and that's that's a much better feeling. I'll

(01:52:20):
say that. I think that this record we have for
the longest done a like conceptual records, like where there's
a concept that we kind of build around it, so
it's not as much it's more about the concept than
it is maybe the songs. And we approach this record
as like every song needs to be the song, build

(01:52:41):
it that way, and we've funny enough, I know, this
is crazy. We've never built a record that way. It's
always been like, well, what's the vibe, how's the vibe fit?
It's like, no best song wins, So the ten best
songs And that's how we've written the record, which is
I know it's counter to what a lot of people do,
but that's or you know, usually that's how most people

(01:53:02):
write records. But that's the first time we've ever really
done that. And so that's what we did.

Speaker 1 (01:53:07):
Well, you know, I was going to ask you some questions.
You answered about today's you know, crazy landscape. But you
have to build your own mountain. You know exactly what's
going on. It's you know, it's hard to feel what's
going on. Spoke about momentum. I think we've covered it, Paul,
it's been great talking to you. As I said earlier,

(01:53:28):
you never knew who somebody is in or talk to him.

Speaker 2 (01:53:31):
What I have to ask what did you What did
you think I will? What did you think?

Speaker 1 (01:53:40):
You're a guy who's dynamic on stage. You have to
work yourself up to do that. I mean, there's some
instinctive thing, but it's a performance, right, as you say, entertainment. Right.
If let's just assume you Paul went to visit teenage
Paul and Chelsea, someone who knew nothing. Okay, I said.

Speaker 3 (01:54:03):
Yeah, I'm in this band. We play around the world.
People say you, yeah, you know, you're not that guy.

Speaker 1 (01:54:11):
You know, blah blah blah blah. Boy, You're You're just
like me, so you know. And the other thing is
a lot of people are road weary.

Speaker 3 (01:54:23):
They've been doing it so long that everything's kind of
like punching the clock. I mean, people are not gonna
We had some technical issues at the beginning. You know,
you could have been oh man, I I you know,
we had a start time. Now you know we're slipping.
I got to you know, uh jr cough later. I mean,
come on, so.

Speaker 1 (01:54:44):
You're like, oh yeah, cool man, We're gonna work it out.

Speaker 3 (01:54:47):
I mean, I you know, I don't you know, you
got a big operation, you got a big band, you
got a wife and and a kid.

Speaker 1 (01:54:55):
But you're a friendly guy. I mean, you know, you
meet somebody that's a good guy.

Speaker 2 (01:55:01):
Like to hang with it. Yeah yeah, I mean seriously,
Like for me, I know this is crazy, but I
actually love love. I mean I worked on paving cruise.

Speaker 1 (01:55:09):
Man.

Speaker 2 (01:55:10):
I love what I do, and I will that this
beat the shit out of that on my on my
worst day of this, it's still better than my best
day on that and I it doesn't feel that long ago,
you know what I mean. But but no, I appreciate it,
and I want to say I do appreciate what you wrote. Uh.
I heard from a lot of industry people and it
was really funny because I was I told him that,

(01:55:34):
I was like, that might be one of the most
glowing things.

Speaker 3 (01:55:37):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (01:55:37):
I've ever seen them rit and I really appreciated that
it I'll tell I'll tell you for the band and everything,
it meant a lot. It meant like it was the
sign of like, Okay, at least somebody gets it. And
it felt really good. So just letting you know.

Speaker 1 (01:55:52):
That makes me smile. But I'll just reiterate, you know,
totally honest, totally how I felt. I was just listening
to the song and I had those feelings and no
one was paying me, no one. I hadn't met you before,
But that's what we're all looking for. This is what
people say, Oh the odds are stacked against me, et cetera,
et cetera. If anybody he's something they really think is great,

(01:56:16):
they want to tell everybody about it.

Speaker 2 (01:56:18):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:56:18):
It's like, hey, I found this because so much of
the stuff is just mediocre.

Speaker 2 (01:56:22):
I know. I'm with you, I'm with you, I hear you.
I just know it was I'm just saying. And it
made it to the group thread and everyone was just
you know, it's validating in a way. Do you know
what I mean? Because you know what you know this
like what we do doesn't make economic sense and we
make it work, but we do it because we feel
like it's the best thing to do, and that's that's
a it's a validay, so I appreciate that.

Speaker 1 (01:56:45):
Well, that's the last word.

Speaker 3 (01:56:47):
Paul.

Speaker 1 (01:56:47):
I want to thank you for talking to my audience,
taking this time till next time. This is Bob left
such