Pete Wentz

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast.
My guest today is musician, entrepreneur member of fall Off
Boy Pete Wets. What's up? Good to be? Okay? So
you got the Stadium tour with Green Day and weez Or?
How did that come together? Well? So we've always talked about,

(00:29):
you know, like I guess everyone has, whatever your ambition is,
you always think about, you know, the the office above
you or whatever. So we always talked about how do
you do as stadium tour? And we played uh, Wrigley
last year, which is our hometown UM, and we've always
talked about kind of trying to do like a Monsters
of Rock thing, and I think green Day had talked

(00:49):
about it as well. So we you know, we're all
on the same management company. So I think that's what
really UM eliminates. Maybe some of the red tape makes
it like more feesa bol to do you know, there's
a lot of like managing of egos and man, you know,
I mean it's just like it's a lot kind of

(01:09):
with one band is a lot, do you know, with
three bands a whole lot? You played Wrigley, How did
you do it? Wrigley. It was good. It was great.
I mean it was our hometowns. I mean, did you
go clean at Wrigley? We did? Yeah, I mean it too.
So whatever everything there's different configurations for everything, but yes,
we went clean. So what configuration did you have? I

(01:32):
think that we did over thirty And I'm guessing, like
there's probably a way that you can do a configuration
where you put people behind you, you know what I mean,
Like I guess you're going to like the full Beatles,
I mean configuring Chase Stadium configuration. But we didn't have
people behind us, but yeah, we did. It was there's

(01:53):
something special about Chicago because Chance the Rapper played a
stadium in Chicago fairly well from the Dead. You know,
Detroit always talks about it's fan base. Is it a
very active fan base or it's just that's where you're from.
It's an active fan base. It is where we're from.
But I think that and and and Chances the one

(02:13):
that's a little is different on here. But people play,
you know, whether it's Eddie Vetter or whoever play. You know,
people have a special connection with I think Grigley Field
people have a special connection with Fenway there's these places
where people it's bigger than the city. It's bigger people
can sell out Hollywood Bowl and not sell out Irvine

(02:34):
down the street totally. And so I think people go
there because there's a you know, we made a weekend
of it. We did a pop up experience there also,
which is always experience. So when we did our album,
Mania always envisioned it as you know, the idea of
having something tangible, like, I think we live in this
world where it's all filled with like this that kind

(02:54):
of non tangible things, you know, like likes and things
like that, and they all go away, disappear in twenty
four hours away ever, and I think, uh, it's counterintuitive,
but I think it's interesting to do something that people
can hold onto and experience and walk into ensure. Um,
you can't take pictures of it, but I think it
means more to actually be there. So we we created
a space that was like every song, every song had

(03:16):
a room in the space, and you walked in and
it was like what the album was, but like a
physical version of it. How big was it it was
in So we found a building that they were going
to tear down, so it was big. It was massive,
but they were like, you can do whatever you want
to because we're gonna just turn it down afterwards. Um,
So we built walls and kind of created a place.
But it was it's interesting because it was all it

(03:38):
became event but you know, like it was one of
those things that's in between a bunch of different worlds
or a bunch of different people's um specialties. So there's
a lot of things that we would I probably would
do differently if I did it again, And there's a
part of me that thinks like I would just never
do it again because it was just a bigger undertaking
than we expected. Like we were literally gluing things as

(04:02):
people were waiting in line at it, you know. So okay,
you're talking about it is physical. Did people pay to
get in? Yeah, but you could also win you could
you could you could win tickets people paid to get in,
And then I think there was like a package for
the show where like you was included. How far was
it from Wrigley It was Uh. I would say it

(04:27):
was like ten minutes, twelve minutes, but it was like
Chicago minutes, not those minutes, you know what I mean.
So it was like funny because you know, people are
expected on time in New York and you think how
dense it is. Where's in l A, you know, because
the traffic you never know. Yeah, I'm I'm how late
I was to this podcast? Is how late I am
to literally everything in my life, which is unfortunate, except

(04:48):
I'm not late to my just minutes people listening and
what's about what I am? And I don't factor in.
So I factor in like, okay, five minutes shower, you
know whatever, But I don't factor in those in between
minutes like where you're toweling off or you're like looking
for your keys. Those are these in between minutes that
really add up, and those become the fifteen minutes for
me every single time. Well, the only thing is certain

(05:09):
people have a thing where they're always on time, and
it could be the most powerful person because I hate
when I'm on time and I'm the greeting committee because
like you know, if the parties at seven, you can't
get there at seven, or you know, there's a dinner
and I get there and I'm waiting and I gotta talk.
But then there's some really heavy players get on time.
I feel really shitty if you're late, totally and I

(05:32):
think that it's it's like to me. Uh. I remember
being in a meeting. I was in a meeting. There
was like a pitch for a movie or something like that.
I can't remember. This was like years ago. And I
looked over and there was like, you know, like a
box of like the spread you guys got, but like
it was like coke and sprite and whatever. And then
there was one tab uh for people who don't know,

(05:54):
like tab the Cola or whatever, and that was the
original diet drink from Coca Cola. Totally. And this I'm
talking this is like ten years ago. This wasn't big,
Like these things had to be out of Prince in
the eighties or whatever. And I was like, that's so odd,
like they would have one and we're in the meeting.
Uh in the billionaire in the meeting goes over and
get to the tab and I was like, got it.
So if you're a billionaire, you can get a tab

(06:16):
in the meeting. I hate to talk this way, but
you know what it's like when you fly on the
private jet and you didn't book it totally. There's certain
seats if you can no, you can't exactly. Yeah, just
thrilled that you're on Okay, what would you do differently
if you did the installation again? Um, I would allow

(06:37):
more time for the build out. I would. I think
that this is one of those things where you can't
cut corners. I think, notoriously in the music business, people
really people either under vastly underspend or vastly overspend. And
I think in this case you should lean air on
overspending because I think people having the experience are going
to come out and they talk about it, and they'll

(06:58):
talk about how, oh like it looked like it was
this but it was actually made out of cardboard and
was super cheap and was falling apart, or they walk
out and they're like, oh my god, that was the
best thing I've ever experienced. And there's you can't really
like put a figure on people walking out and having
that experience. It's hard to like sit there and like
say that in a marketing meeting or you know, like
have a pie chart and like be like, well, this
amount of people are going to say this about it

(07:19):
because it's a real feeling. It's like authentic, you know. Um,
So I think I would air on spending more. And
I think that I would uh, And I don't know
that we had any um. I can't remember if we
had any ad space or any like it was put
on by anybody or something like that it might have been.
I would have none of that. I would have no signage. Okay,
what's your general philosophy on sponsorship. I think sponsorship can

(07:43):
be great when someone gives you the money and says, listen,
we have no idea what to do with this. We
trust your vision, we trust your brand, we trust what
you're going to do with this, and that's why we're
coming to you. I think that is great. I think
when you get into the like and we need need
you to like meet like seven people and we need
you to like change this messaging and like that lyric

(08:04):
doesn't work for us, it's not worth it to me
because then at that point like jeopardizes and changes your art.
It changes what your vision was going to be for it,
you know what I mean. So, like, have you worked
with brands? Yeah, for sure, never on like ah, you know,
shake it like a polaroid picture level, you know what
I mean. But like, but we've had tour sponsors. This

(08:25):
tour has a Harley Davidson sponsor and I think that, like,
especially when the brand makes sense with you. Like to me,
I'm always like, kids are smart, you know. I mean
kids can smart can spot when somebody's like doing something
that doesn't really fit in with what they normally do,
you know what I mean? And so I think if
you do something, if if there's things that I'm like,
I love this, like, uh, let me think um, Like

(08:49):
I love salt and straw the ice cream. I've been
trying to do something with that forever, you know, and
I haven't been able to do something with them, but
I like it, so it would make sense. So it's
like whatever you do would would actually be like in
line with it. And I think it's when you step
out of line is when people are like, oh, that
feels a little weird or it feels like you know,
and I okay. But it's well known if you do anything,
you're getting money, whether you're putting it back into the show,
are you putting in your pocket. Do you think that

(09:12):
has any negative effect credibility wise on your fans. I
don't think that it does anymore. I think that this
generation has grown up with seeing people like really shill
and I think that the difference is uh is knowing
that you like, you know, like they saw us and
we would have like cell phones and our videos and

(09:33):
stuff like that. And I'm like, this literally is to
pay for the video. Like we're not walking away. We're
still losing money making this video, you know what I mean?
And and I think we we as a man, and
I think other artists kind of like educated that you know. Um,
I think that there's a difference between like doing a
commercial for something that you don't believe in and and

(09:56):
taking money that is gonna enhance your art, make anything.
Let's go to the led Zeppelin example, when they launched
this new Cadillac for ten million dollars? Would you do anything?
Would say? Okay, that's what I mean. It's almost like
an indecent proposal. Would you do anything for ten million dollars?
Or at some point your your credibility says no, yeah,

(10:17):
absolutely no, No, I don't think you can do anything
for ten Okay, Let's switch it to politics, whatever side.
Would you go on the record when it comes to
candidates or political issues? Would I go on the record? Um? Sure,
I think that this we're in a time where you
should step out and not necessarily step out, but you
should be okay with who you are and authentic with

(10:38):
who you are. The funniest thing to me speaking of
that is like the other day I saw that, like,
you know, Vince Vaughn is all over the place, and
it was like, you know, people freaking out that he'd
like met Trump and you know, and I'm like, I
think this guy's like a pretty known libertarian for the
past like twenty or thirty years, you know what I mean. Like,
it doesn't it shouldn't be shocking, you know what I mean.
I think that when people don't know and then they

(10:58):
see you're doing something and they're like, oh, that doesn't
stand in line with like what that guy has been
doing for the past twenty years, that can be a
little weird, I think. Okay, but how about the issue.
And I've dealt with people who shy away from this.
Let's if you choose either side. If you're an actor,
you're playing a role music done right, it's yourself, okay.

(11:20):
So would you be worried about alienating a potentially alienating
part of your personality, a part of your already fan base.
Excuse me? Sure, I mean you you can you can
worry about it. But at the same time, I think
that we live so we live in a time of
like extreme inauthenticity, you know. I mean we live in
a time where people are like who they are on
Instagram is not who they are, and those experiences like,

(11:42):
you know, I saw my friend who was just like
at a cabin in the snow and it looked beautiful
and I was like, oh my god, I'm so jealous,
and like it looked magical. And he came back and
he was like, it was rats. It was disgusting. He
was like, I would never go back there. And I'm like, oh,
it's because it's the exact opposite of what it looked like,
you know what I mean. And so I think that
being authentic to you are actually cuts through right now.

(12:03):
I think you see that with Billie Eilis, you see
it with Kanye, you see it with Lana del Rey.
I think that and yeah, you are gonna Yeah, I'm
sure it'll take off some people. We live in like
a polarized world right now. But like, I think that
you have to be I think that you what you
gain from being who you are massive is massively overwhelmed
what you would lose, Okay, are you ever creating in

(12:25):
whatever field, and worried about the audience response, not whether
they're gonna like it or not like it, but whether
they're going to react negatively. Where it's coming from. I'm
a hyper anxious person that is goes off the rails
when I'm giving my Starbucks order, you know what i mean,
Like when I'm stepping up the next person in line,
I feel like I'm going to lose it because I'm like,

(12:46):
you're gonna blow it, You're gonna say it wrong, They're
gonna you're gonna take too long. The person behind you
is gonna freak out. Um. So yeah, I worry about
it all that stuff all the time. But on some level,
I think that it's really it's really important to push
ahead and push and push the envelope. I think that
like when you look back at like for me at least,
when I look back at like Clash Records or Metallic

(13:09):
or whatever. You know, like everybody has a different you know,
like uh uh inception or yeah or starting point, you
know what I mean. So like you, when you think
back on it, Um, Clash changing was hard, you know,
I mean it's hard for fans, like when you fall
in love with something. It's hard when they change and

(13:30):
the thing, but I think sometimes it makes it easier
when you're as an adult or an older person, like
going back and listening to those things, you're like, God,
blessed it this change, because like it's easier for me
to like understand and appreciate now. Um so yeah, I
mean I guess I yeah. I think we do think
about it and worry about that. But at the same time,
I think you can't like live or die by it.

(13:51):
You know, you have to. Okay, let's go back to
the installation. Are you the type of person I was
talking actually with Irving aids Off and he show with
about Dom Henley. Don Henley needs to get it exactly right.
Everybody's worked with him. It's got to be his thing.
And Irving said, it's that one percent that makes a
huge difference. You were talking about the perception of the audience.

(14:13):
But what I ask you is that your personality where
it's got to be exactly right or do you lift
should go? Um I it is my personality to to
get it exactly right in the way that like, you know,
I was just playing tennis today and my coach was like,
you got like destroyed by this guy. And I was like,
but my strokes look like like if they hired me

(14:34):
to do play a tennis player in a movie, they
wouldn't have to have a double, you know what I mean,
Like they would just be like, mis strokes look pretty good.
You know, he looks like he could have played in college. Um.
But I think that everyone you know, like growing up
and watching the way the Internet has changed and the
way that you know, entertainment has changed, there's a danger
in making you know, Chinese democracy or whatever the record is,

(14:58):
you know, like where you you cook it for too
long and you like muddy it, you know what I mean,
Like you put too many colors in and you muddy it.
So I think that having a sounding board or like
uh being okay with things going out and being like,
well it's not perfect, but you know, like it needs
to be done, you know what I mean. Okay, But
but let's talk on a different thing. Let's just assume, uh,

(15:19):
I guess what I'm talking about is that edge, that
fine edge, because certainly some of the greatest records of
all time were cutting the matter of minutes. Okay, are
you someone It's like me, I'm a big skier when
every when the skis everything is really right. Um, that's
important to me. Okay, if I go out and the
skis are dull and it's an icy day, it's kind
of ruined my day. So the question becomes, I guess

(15:40):
let's go back to your Starbucks order. Um, is it
an O C D thing? I don't think it's an
O C D thing. It's more of a um, maybe
it is an O C D thing, but it's more
let me this on the D your home alone, Yes
you leave you ever say, holy funk, did I set
the alarm? Did I the uh the uh the grill

(16:03):
on whatever? Yeah, yes I do. But more so my
stuff is like, um, when you're at a you know,
like I was just at a coffee place and they
have the screen where you like sign your fighter on it,
and I'm sitting there in my head and I'm like,
I mean, we've evolved to the point where we have
these screens and these smartphones and everything, and I'm like,
but like, what is the germ level on these screens

(16:25):
that you have to sign? Like it's got to be
like a million fingers on there. And they're like just
it freaked me out. Well, yeah, I know they did
that study that they're not gonna get any disease from
a toilet seat. But as far as you know the
signing on the iPad, I'm not really sure. But uh, okay,
but is it a social anxiety? I mean, what is

(16:46):
when you when you're uptight about giving your order? What?
Why do you think you're uptight? I think that I
am I'm thinking about the person behind me, and that
I'm taking too long, and that um am I saying
it right? And okay, because you you came in here
immediately fall into a groove, you're very easy to talk. Okay,

(17:07):
let's just assume we take you to somewhere where people
don't know who you are, your name, your fallout. Boy.
Should I say, Okay, we're gonna go to a party
with twenty people. I I can't go, but you're gonna
go alone? You canna say finding say, man, I'm not
going alone. I will probably be like yeah, that'll be great,
and then like, uh, like an hour before I'll tell
you I can't get a babysitter. Okay, which maybe the truth.

(17:32):
Maybe you won't be the truth. Okay, you buy something
at best biased one goes to best buy, but you
do it fucked up? Okay, came that way? You uptight
about returning it? Absolutely? I don't want that conversation. You
know what that conversation. Okay, this is not treated. But
let's go back to the stadium show. Was it the

(17:54):
manager's idea or was it in the air? Was it
one of the bands? It is? I think it came
from the bands. I think the managers were like, we
can make this happen. Um. I think it would be
a would have been a lot harder to get it
together without having the same manager, because you can like
do like vertical moving, you know, whereas otherwise it's like

(18:16):
this fun is this size and like you would not
believe the stuff that guys and bands will argue about.
Yeah yeah, yeah, Um. So I think it came from
the bands, like it was organic and and I knew
Rivers and we'd obviously grown up on on Green Day.
Um and so yeah, I mean I and listen like

(18:38):
it's like you you get asked like where you want
to ski? Like everybody has like a like an ultimate
version of like what it is like for guys in
or girls in rock bands. It's like a stadium, you know, festival,
Like these are like these things that you yeah, absolutely
gotta you gotta do it, you know what I mean,
Like you want to do it, you know what I mean.

(18:58):
And so yeah, it's it's just about like making it work,
you know what I mean. Okay, so your build in
all the building I've seen is the middle act? Was
that hard to work out? Irrelevant of the fonts uh
that we were playing, that we were in the middle
or that we were was it hard to work out? No,
I think that we Yeah, I mean it's hard to

(19:21):
work out in the way that like we haven't supported
any band in a really long time. So it's just
a different thing, you know. Um, but every time you
come back to it, you you know, like every time
I like freak out about anything, like my manager will
send me like Monsters of Rock posters, like pictures of
Rounsters rock posters, and you're like, these guys did this
and this was like an epic, epic, epic thing that
was bigger than all the bands, you know, and if

(19:42):
you're thinking about like who's like one or two of
four on those, it's like pretty insane, you know what
I mean. And so uh, yeah, you're you're making things
work for the greater good, you know what I mean?
And Okay, is there anything where Okay, I'm gonna go
out and blow away the head miner? Sure, of course.
I mean there's of that. I mean in the way

(20:05):
that like you want to Okay, so this is this
is what it is. So we played the we played
at the at the Whiskey, the three of us, three
bands played and there's part of you that's like, I
want to do this and like it's different and whatever.
And then you know, you're I'm watching Green Day play
and I'm like, damn, but they have these songs. And

(20:27):
we played the probably the best small club show that
we could have ever played. And when Green Day played,
they had these songs that were like baked in people's
cultural DNA, you know what I mean. And it was
like seeing basket case in this tiny room. I'm just like,
it's just bigger. It's just the difference between like opening
like a bottle of wine that's like from the basement

(20:48):
of a seller of a French chateau, versus like screaming eagle.
It's just like it's just different, you know what I mean,
Like it's had like fifty years and going to the
minor point. Are you into wine? Do like wine? Okay?
But you into you know, you're also collecting you mentioned
screaming eagle. Okay, I I've got a tastings I've I'm

(21:09):
not like uh no, I'm not like a real collector
of one. Do you collect anything? Uh? Yeah? I um
let me think, what are What are some things that
I'm like really into collecting. I have like all my
eighties toys? Uh you have the original ones? Who you
rebought them? No, they're all the originals. I'm like a
kind of like a what like literally from age five

(21:32):
seven that kind of toys. Okay, your parents, you have
any brothers or sister. I do have a younger brother
and younger sister. Okay. Hempic was the house. It was
I guess. I grew up in a upper middle class
and it was I guess my mother. She threw all
my ship up. My parents tried to and I would
like lose my mind, you know what I mean. Like

(21:52):
it was like and there and I'm probably should be
in some kind of therapy session for this, but I
would like, you know, like and eventually they just packed
it all when they moved out of the house. Moved downsized.
They um, they just shipped it all to me in boxes. Okay,
So other than your toys, what do you have from
your childhood? Oh? Man, I have a blanket that I
have all my baseball cards which are worth and those

(22:14):
would be worth Yeah, so I'm from like I got
my baseball cards are from like the junk era, so
like everything. Yeah. So uh that Ken Griffin is just
now worth a right? Um? What else do I have
that I collect? Uh? I collected vinyl for a little bit,
but nothing that crazy. Can you get rid of any
of this ship? What is it? Marie condo? Is that

(22:37):
what it is? Because you know, Marie now selling a
product that's the whole thing. Right, that's like the dream. Right,
you get somebody to get rid of everything, and then
like you all of a sudden have a brand, so
you gotta like sell the merch. Although I will say
I don't want to go uh you know, make light
of all the people's houses burned down, But I am

(22:57):
a real hoarder and sometimes say, well, you know, as
long as they have my computer, if the whole house
burned out, it might be liberating, right. Mine would definitely
be Mine would definitely be liberating, uh, except I can
get my kids stuff out. But um, there's definitely a
point where like I was like, I'm just I'm just
a collector. And then I like looked at pictures of

(23:19):
this stuf. People were showing me pictures of my stuff,
and it like looks like hoarder stuff, you know what
I mean? And I guess that's how it how it
switches from collecting to hoarding. Is that like you don't
know right, Like there's like some like it's interesting, it's
in your DNA, and there's some dys morphia. There's some dysmorphia,
right because you look at it and it doesn't look
like okay, may look like junk to you, but I

(23:40):
know we're literally everything right, and if you reorganized that
I won't know where it is. And everything has sentimental
I just moved and for the first time ever, I
threw a lot of stuff out, stuff that I would
never throw out. And the cliche, unfortunately is true in
that you don't miss it. But there's a couple of
things I threw out a few years ago that I
still miss So how got a house do you live in?

(24:02):
How many square feet is it? I don't know it's
all in the garage. But I can't but I can't
park in the garage. Okay. And it's how many car garage?
Three car garage? So the three three things are full
of your ship? Yeah, okay. And then there's a storage
you did okay? How far? How far away is the

(24:22):
storage you? I have a close one in a far okay.
You you go on the road. Okay. There's lamb and
it's there's all kinds of stuff. You save all that ship,
A lot of it? I save. Yeah, I saved every
lamb in it. Okay. So we're in the house. What
other How easy is it for you to throw out anything?

(24:45):
Like the newspaper. I have an issue with other people
throwing my things away. Oh man, this is my girlfriend.
I what do you do? But I can do it? Yeah,
but I have a problem with other people making the call.
I have a huge problem and I want to And
it's like it's not super healthy, right, there's different I

(25:08):
see a special doctor for this. Okay. Have you ever
been in therapy? Okay, Well, it turns out regular therapy
doesn't work for o c D. You have to go
to a special person and it's called exposure therapy. Okay,
And there's two things. I don't know if you have
any issues. Like one of my issues is if you say,
if one of those can't has like big skulls and

(25:28):
bones on it, it's very hard for me to touch that.
So first you work up your way to touch that.
Then hoarding. They actually send somebody to my house once
to teach me how to get rid of it. Okay,
and uh, there's definitely treatment for it. It's you know,
it comes down to two things. One the O c

(25:50):
D thing is you're crippling your life by when it
comes to the stuff, whether you have enough space for it.
Sounds like you do, I mean kind of. I mean
I definitely was hold that our garage was dangerous the
other day, dangerous way something might fall. I guess that's
something might tip on somebody or fall or something. Yeah. Yeah,
I had that experience after the earthquake. You weren't in

(26:11):
l A. The earthquake now living in Santa Monica really shook.
And I had my vinyl records all the way up
to the ceiling, and I said, and I moved. I
was just afraid if they fall, if anybody's lying on
the couch, gonna kill them. But okay, let's go back
to the tennis. You play tennis at a club or
you have a court or what I don't have a court.
I play like at either public courts or I played

(26:33):
like there's this one in the valley that's it's like
just barely kind of the valley that's called Weddington that
is like it's like public, but you pay so then
you don't have to like wait, you know, so it's
like how good a tennis player are you? Oh? Man,
So they have levels? Uh, I guess I would be
a four oh or a four or five? Four oh
for sure? Not really explain what the levels are for

(26:53):
those people on sophisticated um. It goes through like whether
you're able to just hit return a shot, of whether
you well to know the correct positioning, or whether you're
able to hit an aggressive offensive shot. And like for instance,
like like Gavin Gavin Rossdale, I think he's probably like
a four or five or five if not beyond you know,
what's the lowest? I don't know. I guess one maybe

(27:15):
or five yeah, But like I think after you get
past maybe six or seven, maybe it goes to a
professional somethime. So how often do you play? Oh boy,
I don't know if I need to go on record,
if somebody's listening that I tell that, I go to
like that. I'm you know, in meetings, I play out
too much. You play every day. I play every day. Okay,
what if you miss a couple of days. You're cool

(27:37):
with that, or you have a jones to get back
out there. I definitely have a jones to get back
out there. And did you play tennis as a kid?
I did not very well, but yeah I did. Okay,
how did you get back into it? I just played it,
goofing around and I played. And it's just one of
those ones that like is addictive the way, whether it
would be skiing, you know, like once you you get
back in the rhythm, you're like, oh, I could just

(27:57):
do this every day, Like if somebody was like you
could just do I used to ski every day and
over Christmas ice ski twenty six out of twenty seven days.
You get a fine edge when you do it every day,
and that fine edge is very rewarding. Person may not
even tell by looking at you, but like with this,
you know you can get to that shot. You know
you can get it back over the net because once

(28:19):
you're in that groove and you go out and play
or ski, when you're not in that groove, it's depressing
because people say, oh you look, they say, no, I
know I can do this, and I'm not that I can't.
And tennis is one of those like really messed up
ones where like you'll like that's similar to golf, and
I think golf is the more extreme version where you like,
we'll play one day and you're the best player you've
ever been, and then you played the next day and

(28:40):
you're like literally the worst. You know what I mean.
It's like one of those like super frustrating. Right certainly
is okay, So how did you get back into tennis?
I just like started playing and I just played a
couple of times, goofing around, and then like I just
got super into it. I think I had a ton
of time and I got super into it, and then
I like went and started playing on tour when we
like in Australia, I played like with some of like

(29:04):
the AUSSI pro women and basically like you go from
being like I watched it on TV, maybe I could
like do this, and then like I they this this
one woman hit literally she was like, I'll serve one
real one to you. And it was like I just
tried to move out of the way. I mean, it
wasn't even like about returning it. And I was like, okay,

(29:25):
So like this is like not in the cards of
Like I remember when I was a little kid, I
used to play a lot of golf. Was never good.
And you got with someone who really dos how to play.
They're just not hitting the ball, they're working it. You
have to spin to be at that elite level. I
mean obviously Michael Jordan could never play baseball. So let's
go back to the beginning. So you grew up where
in the Chicago area, the North Side, like the suburbs

(29:47):
of Chicago which met Wineka. We basically grew up. We're like,
so like Breakfast Club was set at my my high school,
but did they film it or just set in terms
of it was filmed there? So like basically every John
Hughes movie was set in Shermerville or whatever. And Shermerville
is not a real place. But there was a road
that ran between me and the guitarist Joe of our

(30:10):
bands town his town in my town, and it was
shermer Road. And so like everything was based on that.
Like Home Alone was like one block from his house,
which is where we had had practice. But it's basically
like this, Like it's all those every one of those
movies is basically like that our town, you know what
I mean. Okay, So you grow up, you're the oldest kid.
Your parents have all their hopes and dreams invested in you.

(30:32):
I think that I had. I don't know about that,
but I think that my parents had like, um, I
was like the experiment, you know what I mean. So
I was the one that like, you're an experiment because
of their parenting style or by nature of being the
first kid. Uh both. I think in the way that like,
let's go back, your parents had you. How old or
young were they? Um, my dad was thirty and I

(30:55):
think my mom was twenty nine. Okay, so that's all reasonable.
And as your mother working outside the house at that point,
she was before I before the young Prince came along, okay,
and then I think okay, and your father did what
for a living? He was a lawyer, was still a lawyer,
still practicing. Yeah, you refer to yourself as the young prince. Okay.

(31:15):
My mom called me the uh, when I was born
the Prince of Edgewater. We lived in this uh part
of Chicago called Edgewater Village, I think, And so she
called me the Prince of Edgewater. But it was your
risk or she really treated you like a prince. I
think it was humorous. I don't. I don't think my
mom really, I don't know. I'm not really sure, you
know what I mean. Like I I look at all
these pictures of me when I was little, and I'm

(31:36):
in yellow and all of them, and she was like, uh,
you know, like people just didn't have People didn't go
and look at what their baby was beforehand unless there
was a problem, Like you wouldn't we just wouldn't, you
know what I mean? And so like we just had
yellow because we thought you might be a girl. You
just never know. And I was like, yellow, such an
interesting color to put a baby in a bunch of time,
a bunch of the time, you know. Okay, So if

(32:04):
I had your two siblings here, would they say you
were the prince and the favored child or they'd say, oh,
we're all equal. I think that my my my sister
um in some ways because it's two boys and a girl.
And I think that she got um some special attention.
She was. She was different. She was also like of

(32:24):
us was the was the easiest, you know. I mean
she's the middle and she was just she was just easy.
You know. I don't think I would think I was
like pretty. I was like difficult in the way that
like I dye my hair and I'd do a band
and you know, like it was just all you know,
like I left college, you know what I mean, Like
it was just all like I was, yeah, you know,

(32:48):
and it was as the first Okay, what is what
are your sister and brother do? Uh? My sisters studied
family sociology maybe um and she is stay at home
mom in Chicago with three kids, and my brother is
a fine artist in New York. Successfully. Yeah, I think so,

(33:08):
I mean off the parents pay roll, off the parents
pay roll. I think he I don't really like it's
the same thing as like I have a little bit
of a of a guy in a band's perception of
like what my dad and my brother do, because they
like explain it to me, and I'm like I kind
of understand, but I don't really because he were he
does marketing as well, you know what I mean? So

(33:28):
I don't really fully understand. Okay, and you're close with
your family and your siblings, Yeah, definitely. So you grow up,
are you good in school or bad? I was always
like a very like I had to like, um, not
living up to your potential kind of thing, you know
what I mean. It was like a lot of like
test Well doesn't do a lot of people that doesn't.

(33:51):
And you're like the you know, the king of the class,
the class count clown and outcast. Where do you fit in?
I never out like I fit in where I lived. Um,
I don't. Yeah, I just I don't feel like I
really looked like anybody. And I didn't really like understand
the way people kind of like did their thing. And

(34:13):
my family was always the family that like we were
like a little bit like the weird family. Like my
parents would have us go eat it like Ethiopian restaurants
and stuff like that, and I was just like I
just want to eat fucking McDonald you know what I mean.
It's like I just wanted to be normal, you know.
And now I appreciate it and I understand it, but
like at the time, it was like, um, yeah, and
so I don't I don't think I really felt like

(34:34):
I fit in. I think I was like probably always
trying to goof around to fit in. Maybe did you
have friends? Yeah, I kind of had friends. I kind
of was friends with everybody, you know what I mean,
like but like not, I don't. I didn't have like
close friends until I was a little older. Okay, So
were they playing music in your house? My dad played
a ton of like um, like Temptations and a ton

(34:58):
of like Fogerty, Like it was like anything that was under,
Like a lot of the stuff was under, like the
like the oldiest station I guess in my town. Um,
and like my first concert he took me to was
Jimmy Buffett, you know what I mean, which is so
I was I think I just wanted to go to
a concert so bad that it was like it was

(35:19):
pretty cool. And I thought like Margaritaville and like Cheeseburger
and Paradise were like pretty catchy songs. So um yeah,
because I think I just wanted to go to concert.
My dad was like, I'll take you to this one,
and I was like, I want to say I was
like ten or eleven, and then like the summer that
I was fourteen, which was what year or thirteen, which
was so I graduated in nineties seven, so you were

(35:44):
born like in yeah. So yeah. So this summer, uh
basically all at the same similar timing, maybe not the
whole summer, but like, uh, we were at this lake
house uh that my parents would go to. Um. It
was like kind of like a group lakehouse. I don't
really not explain it. It's like family camp or something

(36:06):
like that. And I water skied, but like the older
kids all slalom water skied, and all I wanted to
do was slalom because it looked like a juicy for commercial. Also,
Terminator two came out, um, and all I wanted to
do was see that movie, but it was radar and
I think my parents didn't let me. And then I
think it was that summer. In the next summer in Metallica,
Guns and Roses went a stadium tour and all I

(36:28):
want to do was go to the show, and my
parents were like, you're not going to that show. So
it was like this like it was all wrapped to me.
It's all wrapped up in the same thing kind of
you know. Okay, did you have the Metallica and Guns
and Roses albums? Oh? Yeah, yeah, I said, I had
the Guns and Roses album in my mom's car on tape,
and I would have to sit there and turn down

(36:48):
the swear because I knew when the squares were coming,
and this is when they had like Getting the Ring,
like and I had that whole getting the Ring speech,
you know, like, yeah, you'd be ripping off the kids
to paying their hard earn money to read about the
man's they want to know about talking ship writting? Do
you want to antagonize me? Antagonize me? You know, Like
I had that whole speech memorize and I would be
turning it up and down, like trying to like get
to swears like basically like you know, to put hi

(37:10):
cough buttons from my mom in the car because I
was like this music school, it's cool, trust me, don't worry.
But then I would like have to like you know,
self edited. Okay, but how did you get into Metallica
Guns and Roses? Um? So I had a group of
friends that like skateboarded and and that kind of stuff,
and I don't know how they got into it. I
think there might have been an older brother, um Nick

(37:30):
Poole and his older brother maybe Alex Pool I think
maybe like made a tape this is back. I don't
know people would make tapes and would have a bunch
of different songs on it and uh, you know, like
Metallica and Slayer and stuff. But did your parents buy
you albums or was it mostly these tapes? That was
those tapes? And I don't think my parents, like my
parents would not buy me an album like that. I

(37:52):
don't think. So did they buy you any albums? Man?
Did they buy me? I think that there was, like, yeah,
I'm sure there was like um, like R and B
stuff for like stuff that like my parents would also
listen to was okay to be bought. But like I

(38:12):
don't even think. I don't even know if it came
into Like I don't even know. And this is weird
because like this is not how people and I'm a
I'm a parent of three, this is not how people
parent anymore. But like I don't I think I might
have been nervous to ask my parents for it, or
like I just expected that they were it was gonna
be a no, So I just didn't even Like it
wasn't even in the like wheelhouse, like it wasn't like
it would never I would never think to ask, Okay,

(38:34):
so those are all hard edge? Was that the only
music you were into at the time, for sure? And
then I got even harder. I got into punk rock,
and I got into like death metal and like, so
you never went to the Guns and Roses Metallica tour,
you know. I went to Guns and Roses at Dodger
Stadium maybe two years ago, and it was amazing because
it was like all these people that had kind of

(38:55):
like um been like stuck and frozen in time. It
felt like, you know what I mean, And I was
one of them, you know, I mean, because like you're
in the merch and it just kind of like looked
like you'd just like come out from underground and you're
like Guns and Roses still around in two thousands, seventeen
or whatever I always say. And I saw Guns and
Roses when they played a week at the Forum after
Use Your Illusion, you know, when and two came out,

(39:16):
And that was still when they were coming on hours late,
and they were phenomenal. But like when I go to
see the Stones now, well, when I when the Stones
first started doing really the stadium towards whatever, like a
couple of decades ago, I always thought it was the
people who were afraid to go the first time it
was too dangerous. Now they had leather jackets. Was that
like going to the Guns and Roses Show. I think

(39:37):
that the Guns and Roses Show was a little different
in the way that because they went away for so long,
so I think a lot of people were like, I'll
never see him again, you know, And and it was
people who would like and I think in a weird
way it kind of like you could speak about it
in in our band, like having to two different portions
of our career, because there was a lot of people
like me who was like just too young or told

(39:58):
that you couldn't go or something, and then you came.
And I think that the way I experienced it was
like and the music and art has a funny way
of doing this. We were like it tricks you, like
where I was like experiencing it as a fourteen year old,
you know what I mean. So I'm sitting there and
I'm in the crowd, and like I came around. I
went with like four people and like some of them
were like, I don't know, this is like this kind
of goofy or whatever. But for me, it was just

(40:19):
like wish fulfillment. I was like, okay, like I didn't
want to go my friends and the agents, etcetera. I
don't want to go a because Izz he wasn't in
the act. And two I had good memories and want
there are a number of acts like that I won't
go see again. So okay, you have those things you
don't go to the show. Did you grow up playing,
taking piano lessons or any of that. Ship I grew

(40:40):
up taking piano lessons. I didn't want to do it.
I quit. My mom was like, you're gonna regret this,
and like it's the like stereotypical. I definitely regret it.
How long did you take piano lessons for it? I
took four or five years. Yeah, but I'll be honest,
it never got to the point. And like I see
these piano teachers now and I have to give like
a huge, huge shout out. Is uh and maybe they existed,

(41:03):
they just don't think exist and maybe where I was,
But uh, it's fun now, Like I like my kids
do like imagine dragons and and and Star Wars song,
you know. I like it's like they do like fun
things and real things and they're reading music and it's
like making it fun and making it relatable, you know,
like I don't think it was the way I was

(41:23):
doing it was like not super relatable, just sitting there
doing scales and you know, I don't know, can you
still read music? I could read music for piano, I
can't read music for guitar. But okay, so when do
you make the switch? When do you start picking up
the bass or whatever? You pick up? Bass is a
funny one because it's the instrument that, like, people always

(41:45):
need bassis and it's always the one that like people
before there, everyone was like, you know, like a DJ.
People were like, oh, I could probably play that one.
It's only got four strings. And I think I was like,
you know, my friends were doing a punk band, and
I was like, sure, this one's got this one seems
easier to learn, you know what I mean. So they
decided to do a band before you actually played the bass. Yeah,
I mean definitely. This wasn't Fallout Boy, but it was

(42:07):
other punk bands and whatever. Okay, so what do you say,
mom and dad, I need a bass because I gotta
be in this punk band. No, no, no no no. It
was like so scrappy then, where it was just like
you were trading and you were borrowing, and the older
brothers had things, and you know what I mean, Like
it was like, no, for sure, I think my parents
actually would have been supportive of me having a musical

(42:30):
instrument of some kind. But I think this was like
my thing, you know, like or whatever ports around it,
but it was like mine, So I just wanted to
do it my way. Okay, So you learned on the fly.
You formed the band first, and then you learned how
to play. Yeah, I learned. I learned how to play
like in in the practices, Yeah for sure. And you
know I you know, I could play the guitar. I

(42:52):
can't imagine playing the bass, especially fretless bass. So how
long did it take for you to say, Okay, I
kind of understand that us we're getting there. Still think, well,
whatever I mean, Lars went back for drum lessons long
into Metallica's career. Did you ever go to professional or
try to listen to records try to replicate and learn

(43:13):
from people who were pros. Yeah for sure. And like
for me, like a lot of like metronome work and
and and and timing and and playing things that aren't
in the wheelhouse to fall out boy to kind of
like figure some of that out. And like honestly with
Patrick our singer, like he's um so predator, naturally musically gifted,

(43:35):
Like it's just to me off the charts. Bizarre. It's
like when you just somebody you know, like throws the
ball and you're like, oh, he just like knows how
to do it. He does that with like every instrument
kind of you know whatever. Um, he'll help me with stuff,
you know what I mean. So now you're playing in
punk bands, you're in the high school. Is it the
type of thing where it's extracurricular or is it impinging
on your studies? I didn't care about my studies in

(43:59):
high school. Yeah. Well they sent me to uh, they
sent me to a boot camp in um, New Hampshire.
How old were you when you went to the boot camp?
I think this all happened around fourteen fifteen. Okay, what
was the straw that broke the camel's back that made
them send you to the boot camp? I think it
was missing like day eighty one at school something like that.

(44:22):
I'd like, Okay, when I went to school, it was
like a police state and if you didn't go and
you didn't they called your house. Yeah, this was like
one of those ones where you could figure out all
these different ways to like kind of uh, there's ways
to game it, I think at the time, like where
you could build up your free periods and you can. Okay,

(44:44):
and this was regular public high school. This is public
high school. And then thisbly my last year a public
high school though. Okay, so for three years it worked
for no because this is like age fourteen, fifteen, so
this was one year. Okay, that's what I thought. So
what you're you're out of junior high, you're in the
HIG school. Okay. Was this out of the blue or
were they trying to discipline you first? Oh, I'm sure

(45:07):
they were disciplining me. Like my parents were pretty pretty
good about discipline or they were pretty you know, straight
and narrow. But at the same time, like my dad
was the kind of guy that would be like Adar.
We played at this play this venue in Chicago called
the Fireside Bowl, which is bowling alley, but they would
kind of like let shows happen, but the guy was
pissed that shows happened there, which is like all these

(45:28):
great venues in Chicago. Like the guy like regrettably. Yeah,
something would come and say, hey I can increase your
business then totally. But my dad would be at all
these shows with like the tie in the back, yeah,
which is pretty cool. My father came to one of
my Little League games. I mean he had virtues but
supported me in my dreams by showing up. Never so
in any event, Okay, why what did they say when

(45:52):
they were going to send you into Hampshire? Um? I
think it was like, you know, like it was like
we talked about like it was like, you know, getting
me back on the straight and narrow kind like no, no, no,
And like now it's easy to like look back and
be like, well it's fine because you were taking these
these these turns because you're doing art and you want

(46:14):
to do this that. But like I think that that
had it gone a different way, they'd be like this
is this was the turning point when we could have
gotten you back, you know what I mean? So how
long did you go to the Hampshire for? I think
I was there a month. Maybe it's like ridiculous. It
was like you know those giant like gatorade bottles, the
ones that like they have for teams or whatever, Like
one day, they would have you dig a hole and

(46:36):
put it in the ground, and then the next day
they would have you dig it up and take it
out of like just like no, you know, like just
kind of like how many other kids were there? Oh?
I would say that there was like a hundred. Maybe
boys and girls are just boys, boys and girls coad,
but you were only with boys, okay, And it was
like all uh I was in there with the the

(47:00):
lightest record. Okay, that's my point. It's like going to
jail from the other people. No, I was terrified. I
was scared of everybody there, you know what I mean.
I was like, oh my god, these people are all
like actual criminals, and so they have to decide when
you get out or was a month set up in advance.
I think you were supposed to come to some like

(47:21):
um moment of clarity, but I don't know that I did.
But I think you were supposed to come to some
like I'm a changed kid, or like I'm a new
boy or whatever. You know. I got something like that,
you know what I mean? Okay, And so when you
went back, did you go back on the straight and narrow. No.
So when I went back, I went to a private school,

(47:42):
and um my mom was the dean of admissions or
assistant dean of admissions at the private school. So it
was very interesting in the way that like, if I
ever got in trouble there, I would just go to
my mom's office, and that's like about a hundred million
times worse than going to the actual I can imagine,
you know what I mean. So that got me on
the straight and narrow in a weird way because it

(48:03):
was just like your mom's just like at school with you. Okay,
so you graduate from that school and you actually go
to college for a while. I did. I went to
DePaul University for local Okay, how long did you actually go?
I went for so I know. So when I graduated,
I went to UM Columbia in Chicago, and then I

(48:23):
transferred to DePaul and I went there for you go
to Columbia for like six months maybe I think that,
And then I went to the Paul four I think
maybe a year or year and a half. Okay, did
you fit in inpl I did? I think that? Like, uh,
in in colleges in in bigger colleges. It was a
little bit like the movie Higher Learning. You can find

(48:46):
your like your group. Well, I went to a small college.
I stood out. I came to l a if I'm
you know, a million people just like big so you
can find like if you're at a if. I think,
if you're in a big enough place, you can find
your group and kind of find people like minded poll
and I actually liked, like, I like like the basketball
players there, Like there was a lot of people there that,
like I think I would not have probably come across

(49:09):
or like you know, like had interactions with that that
because I was there, I did, and I liked a
lot of the people. But we were doing the band
at the same time, so it was like, okay, so
why did you drop out? We were doing the band.
We were doing Fallout Boy, and it was we were
doing with the way we did the band at the
time was like it's so weird, Like you know, I
talked to my manager about it now and he's like,

(49:30):
so bizarre he did it, but like we would basically
be like, well, what did like Molly Crue and those
bands do back in the day, And it was like
they we pasted flyers and like stuff like this. We
were like on roofs like wheat pasting flyers, which was
something that like no one did at the time, you know,
I mean at all, And so it was just like
it's I think that maybe stood out a little bit. Um.

(49:51):
But we were doing about like forty hours of like work,
forty plus hours of work in the band, and then
you were going to school for you know, thirty ended school.
Uh my, my parents did I could take a year
off to see how the band went, you know, I
mean yeah, and so that's this year. I'm in the year. Okay,
so you're playing the base, you're playing in punk bands.

(50:13):
At what point do you say, Wow, this could be
a real direction. This is what I want to do,
like as like live on it. Um. That came super
super super super late. Uh, because our band's trajectory was
like really bizarrely slow, you know, like it's like the

(50:33):
eight year overnight or whatever. You know. Um. Now, so
I was like we were playing in it, but we
were like and we were like doing the band full time,
but we lived in our parents basements and stuff, and
we were just on tour in a van and like
we didn't have label support, you know. I mean, so
it wasn't like Okay, let's go back you're in the
punk band. What's the evolution there to fall Out Boy.

(50:55):
We were just in the like a million different bands,
and I think that we were getting paid for gigs.
I mean paid in like pizza or whatever. You know.
I mean like not making anybody. It's fun. It's fun,
and um, are you good with girls at that age?
Real bad? I was just like fine. I think, okay,
well this, you're playing the bass in a band, You're
playing all these gigs. I figured that must do well

(51:17):
for you romantically in the narrow when that's very important.
I don't think. I don't think it was like the
band wasn't like cool, you know. I mean it was
like a dorky punk band. You know, they're dorky punk bands.
Dorky punk bands. How does that evolve into fall Out Boy?
We actually wanted to I think we when we the

(51:40):
inception of it was like we wanted to do. Um.
It's funny because I think we got in these heavier
bands that we took really seriously before, Like, so we
went from these punk bands, We got into these heavier
bands that we took super super seriously, like a heavier
like metal was yeah, metal, hardcore, that kind of stuff,
And we wanted to just be in these like heavy

(52:01):
bands that we like kind of like looked up to
um and that was like a grind, you know what
I mean, Like because you're screaming and you're you know,
like it was just kind of thankless. I think, unless
you're in one of those big bands, it's a little
thankless and you just do it over night in, night out.
So we wanted to do something that was just fun

(52:22):
on the side, and that's what fall Boy was. Okay,
And but it was different people originally, right, it was
all the same people except for the drummer was different, okay,
So they were all and was everybody agreeing that this
would be a good thing to do, agreeing that it
would be a fun thing to do. I don't think that.
It was almost like Clay grishasen. You know, the innovator's dilemma.

(52:42):
You have a disruption, At what point do you realize
that's more successful than the scream? Oh thing? Oh man,
that's a good um, you know, I guess at the
point when you're playing. We were playing shows in Chicago,
and well, first it became that our friends, more than
just our friends were coming to the shows. It wasn't
just people we were like begging to come to the shows,

(53:04):
and this is like pre really the internet wasn't what
the internet is now, you know what I mean, So
like this is what one but like it just wasn't
like there was like chat rooms and like email lists
and there was message boards, but they weren't really what
they are now, you know what I mean. And so
it's turned from more than just our friends coming two

(53:26):
shows to the fire Marshal showing up at like every
show that we played in Chicago and being like this
show shut down, there's too many people? How many people?
It would be like we would be in like a
Knights of Columbus hall that fit like two people and
we would try to put like seven people in it,
I mean, and it would be like and every show
got shut down. Okay, how much do you think was

(53:46):
word of mouth? And how much do you think was
was sheer elbow grease with your promotion with with the
flyers and all the pasting up the everything. People always
ask this, you know, like they're like, how much of
it you know? How much do we need to go
on tour versus how much do we you know, need
to be in the studio and how much you know
is you know, and I think you have to do
it all and to me, you know, like I think

(54:08):
there isn't intangible like when the four of us are
on stage, it's for some reason different than when one
of us does a different day or something like that,
for whatever reason that is. But I do think that,
you know, like if you're not gonna get up tomorrow
morning and go and do the radio interview, someone else
is gonna go do it, you know. I mean like
there is like something to be said for like this
is you need to be ambitious and go out And

(54:31):
do you still feel that today twenty years later? Sure
it's in a different way, but yeah, absolutely, Well I
don't think you can go right the same like punk
record when you have like kids and you're debating whether
they should be in like a monostory school or not.
Like it's just like it's not going to sound the same.
But I do think that's what like the Hella Mega

(54:52):
toward the Stadium tour is to me, you know what
I mean, Like it's like we wouldn't do that unless
we were there was an ambition to be in a
state siphically about the music. Obviously you have your well
known tracks if the audience wants to hear in today's
are Although you have a very loyal fan base, how
do you feel not making the record but playing that

(55:13):
stuff live? And how much do you want to play live?
Oh that's a good question. Um. I think for a
band like us, it's like our our things always our
our attempt has always been to create a culture. And
so I don't think that just sitting at home will
be you know, in the sandbox will really work, you know,

(55:35):
in the sandboxing living room. Um. But at the same time,
like yeah, I mean, like playing live becomes different and
like how much how many of the songs are you playing?
Like we're playing a seventy minutes set in stadiums and
so we got to like figure out what that would
be and what songs we should be playing. But um,

(55:56):
we're I think we're Our band is really interesting in
the way that like we have one full kind of
like the music business is probably has the biggest chasm
that it's ever had in my in my time of
being alive, between the old business and the new business,
and our band is a band that's like got a
foot in both, like has seen both a little bit,
you know, so it's it's interesting and like, you know,

(56:17):
like some people will be like, you know, like you
guys should only do singles or you know, like the
album doesn't matter, and like for us, it's like we're
kind of like all over the place, and I think
we have to do what makes the most sense authentically,
and I think that that's like that will be the
only payoff for us. I think chasing a thing or
whatever like won't. That won't work. Okay, But most acts

(56:39):
in general, okay, they have assuming they have hits, they
have their hit period and then they're encased in amber
and they just basically play those hips until nobody wants
to see them anymore to every increasing crowds. So I
was talking to Pete Tongue and he talking about in
terms of DJs, and he says, well, you need to
reinvent yourself. Do you feel that at all of fawom? Yeah,

(57:06):
And it's really it's a it's an interesting time. But
it's interesting in the way that like, when you've been
doing anything for twenty years, how do you have inspiration
that's different than you had twenty years ago when you
were probably hungrier and you wanted it more and you
were you've never done it before, you know, um, yeah,
because I mean that you have what a lifetime to

(57:29):
write your first song whatever it is, you know what
I mean? And and to me, it's like that's why
we worked with We worked with this kid, Burner Boy
from Lagos on the last record. Like, I just think
you have to kind of like, uh, go outside your
comfort zone in order to find new things. There's just
a fine line in the way that like there's a
difference between us going and working with burna boy uh

(57:56):
and writing a song with him than like me feeling
extreme anxiety to have an account on like TikTok, you know.
I mean, like, I think there's a difference. One like
feels like natural and something that like is pushing us
to do something that's beyond ourselves, and the other one
feels like you could end up being like the old
guy that's trying desperately to be I don't know to

(58:18):
what degree you follow this stuff. But Justin Bieber tried
to juice is Spotify. How do you feel about that.
I don't think that Justin needs to do that to me,
you know the funny the record came in at number two, Yeah,
I mean, yeah, but like to me, I'm like, Justin's
like a big star, a big, super super famous, super talented.

(58:42):
If you like watch him. I don't think he needs
to you know what I mean, Like, I don't think
he well, hey days of indie promotion. To me, that
to me, doing that is like beneath him to me.
You know my question. Okay, let's go back. So you're
in college. By time you drop out, you take that
one year. What is the status of the band? We
were playing this place in uh in Chicago. We were

(59:05):
headlining finally, this place called the Metro in Chicago, which
I think is twelve capacity maybe or something like that,
maybe more may We were headlining it. I remember we Uh.
I looked at my parents were like in a you know,
the balcony or whatever, and there was like these floating
um dildo balloons that were like six ft big, and

(59:27):
I remember, I remember I remember throwing one at my
mom in the balcony and watching her like stomp this
thing into kind of oblivion, and it was like there
was like a moment where it was like I think
she's gonna like let me keep doing this, you know
what I mean? You played the Metro, do you remember
what the payday was. Oh man, I have no idea.

(59:50):
There was the Metro. I think at the time before
that there was like they would give a lot of
a lot of tickets away. So I think this was
actually a hard ticket. But I'm not sure and I
don't remember the payday was. I can't imagine. It was crazy.
You have the dial Doo balloons. Well, how much other
production in the mtics did you have in this show?
We had a backdrop, which was like a big deal

(01:00:13):
because we I think we had weren't able to hang
our backdrop on tours before that. And that was it.
That was the production. Okay, So is that the turning
point in your mind saying this could really work? That
was the turning point where I was like, my parents
are gonna let me do it? Uh. The trajectory was
so slow that, like you know, I remember, we were

(01:00:34):
approached by a couple of management companies. They all seemed terrible,
um uh, And we were approached. We we we reached
out to what we I think we reached out to Crush,
who became our managers, and they were kind of like, yeah,
we just like you guys, just do what you do
because we kind of had these shows where we just
play super fast stuff and okay, so the Crush was

(01:00:56):
the first manager you ever had. They were Yeah, so
before were that? Who was the business guy in the band?
You're you're talking to him? I think that's what I think.
I wanted you to admit it though. But the funny
thing is usually it's the drummer. But okay, so you're
making all the deals, You're getting the gigs, etcetera. Oh yeah,
and this is like the times where like, so I
remember we played we were supposed to play in Baltimore

(01:01:19):
at this tiny club in Baltimore, and we drove in,
got to the club and there was like a sign
on the door that said the show wasn't happening because
there was snow or something like that. But there was
just cell phones weren't really what they are, and the
internet isn't like what we were talking about. It wasn't
what it was. So it was like figuring this stuff
out as like your own booking agent was not super easy.

(01:01:39):
Okay at that point, how much were you working and
how broad was your territory. Well, we started in Chicago,
the suburbs of Chicago, and we played kind of any
show that we could. We would jump on stage and
play on the Piel's equipment. From there, I think we
played Detroit, and then we played Cleveland and then Indian

(01:01:59):
Apple Lists and then we would just we just begged
for tours. We couldn't really get tours. This band Punchline
took us out graciously super early, kind of everywhere with them,
which was awesome. This band um you know, and and
then you know, getting ahead to when I don't know,
we we we ended up signing to a record label
and uh. From there, this band Less than Jake took
us on tour a bunch. Okay, listen, Jake is still

(01:02:22):
working right, Okay, So when you drop out of college,
I assume you're like twenty years old. Ye how long
after that did you get the record deal? Maybe a
year later? And this was a deal with an indie,
you know what I mean? Was there any I know that,

(01:02:43):
was there any money? Man? We had an upstream they
had an upstream deal with with Island, but I don't
think it didn't do anything on the LP that we
put out, so it wasn't There wasn't really much okay,
and who recorded who produced it? We had this guy
named Shano Keith that we really liked. That was a
local hero that recorded the whole the whole album. So

(01:03:04):
how long did it take you to make that album?
I want to say this is a time when it
took about okay, So standard would be that it would
take us three months to make an album, but this
one we couldn't afford anything. So like there was a
time when we were we were working at the studio
called Smart Studio in Madison where they recorded some of
Nirvana and some garbage and um garbage of the band

(01:03:27):
not garbage, and we couldn't afford anything. So we they
would get us like a case of sprite and a
case of coke every week, and we were like, instead
of this case of coke and sprite, can you just
get us bread and peanut butter and gella because we
just have any money, um, and we're sleeping on the floors.
Um yeah, we kind of like people are like, well

(01:03:49):
was there, Like you know, like why are these songs
and the records like these are the only songs we
had and these are the only songs we could afford,
so what is the big break? The big break it is?
So we signed to Fuel by Raman an indie record label. Okay,
how did that happen? Uh? This guy named John Janet. Yeah,

(01:04:09):
he called us up and was like, I want to
do so he found Yeah, and we and I have
a book, not a book, but I could make a book,
a coffee table book of rejection letters from every indie
label on the planet. Okay, so you were working at
had you worked Fueled by Raman? We sent them a
we sent them a yeah, we sent them a demo. Yeah,

(01:04:30):
but we didn't really We said he was not responding
to the demo we heard about you. Otherwise he must
have heard about us from like MP three dot com
or something like that. Yeah, okay, so he were there
any moments before Janet called you? We said, oh, this
is gonna be the moment, but it turned out it wasn't.
There were other labels that I really wished we'd I
really wanted to sign to UM and they just didn't.

(01:04:55):
We just didn't sign us. Okay, so Janet calls you
when you say, yes, he called us and like, I'm
you know John Janet and and and I've run this
label with Vinny from Less than Jake and usually the
other bands that are on the label, and this is
the thing. And we were like, what is this like
a sky label? I really know what's going on, but
he was so excited and he was so uh about

(01:05:19):
magnifying our vision that it seemed right. Um, and so yeah,
we we signed to this little label from Gainesville. Okay,
but you ultimately went to Ireland. So was this a
one record deal? How did you work it out? It was?
It was a one record deal with an option. They
could pick up the option for how many records? Oh?

(01:05:41):
So I don't know if we I think you know
at the when we when we upstreamed. I'm sure either
we renegotiated before that record or renegotiated after that record
for like five or six albums. Okay, so just Fueled
by Ramen still get a piece of all those records.
I don't know how their exact money works, but I
would yes that they got a piece of John got

(01:06:04):
a piece of like Futures or something like that on
our next two records or something like that. But I'm
gonna assume it all probably had to change when fuel
by Roman became a part of Atlantic Records. I think
that it probably had to be because I don't think
Ireland wants to send them. Okay, when you make the
deal with fuel by Ramen, you have a real music lawyer.
Uh we did, Yeah, I think we we we have

(01:06:27):
the Uh we have the same lawyer. I would think,
I don't really know, um, but yeah we had a
real music layer. Because Crush was smart about that. I
would say, Okay, you were with Crush before you were
with Janet. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, they helped us. They were
pretty instrumental in getting us there. Okay, so the record

(01:06:52):
comes out. What is the moment you realize this is
gonna break? Well, that record, I was like, it's not
gonna break. It felt good. It was good. It was
really big underground. We were that band that like every
kid knew and no adult knew, you know. I mean
like we were the most famous band with kids and
no adults. Like we were not famous at all, you
know what I mean, Like you can walk down the
street and you could not We couldn't open a taco bell,

(01:07:15):
you know, I mean like it's uh. And then um
we signed to Island. Uh. We had this song Sugar
We're going down on a record from under the Cork Tree.
We basically were like, we want to do a video
for this song, and we didn't get any airplay, We
got no ads, nothing. Uh. We did a video for

(01:07:38):
this song, Sugar, We're Going Down. We wanted to do
a video that just all the videos we were pitched
were like party in the backyard, the kids are hanging out,
they fall in the pool like something, you know, and whatever.
And it was like, these videos are not going to
be good. And so we had one video that wasn't
like that. It was or one um treatment that wasn't
like that, and we got it was like here boy,

(01:08:00):
and it was so bizarre. And so we did that
and our fans were were into it, and they basically
ran it up t r L and then once it
was on tr L, like this is the way it
worked at the time, I guess, And so it ran
up on tr L and then again this is two
three maybe, and it got added to radio and then
got crossed and that kind of stuff. How did you

(01:08:23):
handle that you personally? Before the record came out, I
was like, oh my god, is this thing going to
be all over because we're on the precipice of something
either really big or very small. Um And then yeah,
and then it was like going zero to like light speed,

(01:08:43):
you know what I mean. And it was, it was,
it was. It was strange because I don't even know
how I handled it because it was also compressed, like
you know, like it was so many things happened in
such a little amount of first there must have been excited, man,
when you realized it was happening. Yeah, But like I think,

(01:09:03):
I'm one of those people that's always like, maybe is
it really happening? Kind of you know, I mean, so
even after it was happening. So at this late date,
do you have a feeling that maybe you could all disappear? Now?
I have a feeling that we could go on stage
and nobody would care or nobody would be there for sure.
Every time before, let's just as soon, for the sake
of discussion, you never go on the road again. You've

(01:09:26):
got enough money to get to the end, yeah, I think, so, okay,
so let's go back. The band breaks, suddenly you become
this big entrepreneur. Okay, you're signing other acts, whatever, How
does that start? I always thought of the band and
everything all of it as like something bigger, like the

(01:09:47):
thing that I always liked about like punk rock music
was it was like it was a world you know,
like you create a world, and you know, like Billy
Joel and Metallica and all these artists that I really love,
Kanye Out like all these artists I love, created like
something that was bigger that you could kind of like
go there, you know what I mean. And so that's
what I always thought of it as. And so there

(01:10:09):
was merch, but it all felt cohesive to me. Like
the thing that I like, the thing I've always felt about,
like the label and and the bands that I've signed,
is the like the thing that people I like the
most about Seinfeld is they walk into each other's apartments,
you know what I mean, Like Cramer could walk in
at any time. Like it's cool that like they that
Jerry like them individual individually are interesting, but it's really

(01:10:31):
interesting that they're all friends with each other. That's what
I always thought about, like the the bands, you know
what I mean. Okay, So how did you decide that
you're gonna have your own label and signed bands? Uh?
I first heard this band Gym Class Heroes, and thought
it was super clever and didn't fit in anywhere, And
I took it to my label, uh, to my Too

(01:10:54):
Island at the time, and and I think. They were
kind of like, I don't this doesn't make any sense,
and like, would you have to sign a band? You
know what I mean? So I was like, well, that's
not gonna work. Uh, And so I went back in
a called Janet and he was Janet is is very
very very good at betting on horses, and he's very
good at like, um, like I said, magnifying a vision,

(01:11:17):
you know what I mean. And so he he and
he understood all the stuff that I didn't like understand.
Like he was like, we're gonna do an end cap
here and like this is what the you know what
I mean? And I was like, I don't really like
I don't want to be I don't I don't care
about that part of it really, you know. I mean
I might care about it more than other guys in bands,
but I don't really care about it. And so he
was like, yeah, let's sign them together, and so we
signed Jim Class Heroes and then the guys in Panic

(01:11:40):
of the Disco um Ryan at the time, one of
the guitarists in the band was kind of like he
was like, your band sucks to me, and it was
like and I was like, what what is this? Kid saying,
and he was like, oh, yeah, check out my band.
And I was like, okay, I'm gonna go check this
band out and I'm gonna come back here and tell
this guy how bad his band is and uh, because

(01:12:02):
it was just a human reaction. Um, and I went
and listened. I was like, this band is like maybe
one of the best man's I've ever heard, and um
when they called panic at the disco, they where they
were they were and how what what were they doing?
Could they tour? No? No, no, they couldn't even play
some of these songs. They never played lives, so they
couldn't even play they were I went to the rehearsal
space in Vegas and they were like I was like,

(01:12:24):
play this song and they were like, we can't even
play it. We don't even know how, like we don't
even know how to play it. Um. I remember going
to to Brendon the singer's house. He was seventeen or
eighteen seventeen. He was young, and I was supposed to
talk to his parents, right, and I was supposed to
tell him that, like, don't worry, it's gonna be all

(01:12:45):
gonna be okay, Like what ye are we in there's
maybe two thousand six, and I'm like sitting here, and
I remember walking into the house and looking and on
the on the table his family's more and on the
table there was a book that said Santa and the
christ Child. And I remember in my head being like,

(01:13:06):
I'm fucked. I was like, I am fucked. I have
no I'm in so far over my head right now.
I have no idea what to tell these people. And
we figured it out. Okay, you sign these acts. How
much did you have to do with the making and
records and marketing them. I really care about the marketing
because I think marketing, uh, when done right, can be

(01:13:27):
part cohesive with the art, you know. I mean I
think that you when when when when marketing is done well,
it feels like it's all part of the same thing.
Like it feels like you're like, oh my god, this
is like, uh, it doesn't it doesn't. It's not jarring
because it feels like you're part of it. When marketing

(01:13:47):
is done poorly, it is like the worst thing on
the planet, and it feels like you're like, well, why
are they doing that? This doesn't you know, it doesn't
feel barnament talking marketing you're you're not talking like in caps,
You're talking more like a ven events in the big vision,
and like what is the story we're trying to tell?
And like what can we do that's gonna be uh counterintuitive?
And what can we do that like no one else

(01:14:09):
is doing uh at the time. Um yeah, And I
think that, like my goal with the bands has always
been to a like the thing the best thing I
learned from John was to magnify people's vision and like
and then to tell people to try and tell people
like you can make any decisions that you want to make,

(01:14:31):
because this is your journey and it's gonna be different
than my journey. But like if you go down and
close this door or open this door, these doors over
here will close probably. And my it's been my experience
that like right now you think that like the only
thing that matters is through this door, but like all
these doors that are like way further ahead in the

(01:14:51):
journey will be closed because of this decision. And like
it's I think that trying to be someone's coach and
big brother and and cheerleader has been like the most
important part of that and like nurturing that and making
hoping that people aren't going to make the like big mistakes.
Okay if this late data you signing bands, oh yeah, yeah,
I mean I'm trying to. I mean it's different now

(01:15:14):
because like okay, so when we were signing those bands
at the time, you know, there's no major labels cared
about any of it, and um, social media wasn't what
it is like the people that were on social media.
It's just not like now it's like every people like
that's their jobs, you know or whatever. I think that
like between like when us are the label and crush

(01:15:40):
and the team is working really well together, we're very
very good at taking somebody from zero to eighty thousand
units or whatever you want to to determine the units by.
I think major labels are really good, like when you
need to pour gas on that and you need terrestrial
radio or whatever. But like I don't think that I
think that they are particularly not suited for going zero
to eighty tho and and I think that now because

(01:16:04):
streaming is what it is and it's more about having
bandwidth than anything else. That like you sign everything because
it's like it doesn't cost you any money and like
you're getting paid based on the amount of you know,
the pie you're selling or the amount of pie people
are listening to, you know, And so people are being
signed now like before. Like so our biggest problem at
the time was that, like people were in bad management situations,

(01:16:27):
and that like sometimes was like a really made it difficult,
you know what I mean, Like when you were signed
in you're signed to a bad manager and the manager
wanted to do just had like bad ideas and you
were in a bad deal and there's no way you
were ever gonna make money. That was tough. Now, I mean,
major labels just signed bands and artists way smaller than

(01:16:47):
I think they would and should. So what's the last
band you signed? We signed this kid? Uh, nothing nowhere.
Um he's the first of the sound cloud rappers, I
guess to really go into the you know, I did
that deal with um Fuel by Ramen in Atlantic. Uh

(01:17:09):
and and he's like the first of the SoundCloud rappers
too at the time to a bigger deal. And Okay,
so at this point, you also had a storefront where
you sold ship that's dormant at this point. It is. Yeah, yeah,
that was in Chicago. It just was super expensive and
didn't really make a lot of money. But it was

(01:17:29):
a fun clubhouse to hang out and okay, and then
but also online you were selling stuff too. Yeah, but
you're still doing that. Yeah, yeah I do. I do,
like a jewelry clothing line online. Yeah, but didn't you
have a deal with one of the major uh, with
another company to sell your stuff in their store? Oh yeah,

(01:17:49):
maybe I haven't done a couple of those deals the time.
I guess you know you're not smiling. No, I'm I
think that any of these things any I've learned a
lot in the ways that, Like, so we did a
bar for a long time. So we did a bar
where we had one in New York, we had one
in l A, we had one in Chicago, wan in Barcelona,

(01:18:10):
and basically it was like we started this bar because
we would go to clubs and they would like let
me and the band in, but they wouldn't let any
of our other like goofy friends in, and we were like,
we just want to go somewhere to hang out. Um.
But you learn a lot about like how much you
want to manage things and how like whether you want
to be deciding every night, like you need something happening

(01:18:31):
every night in a bar and you want to if
you want to be micro managing that and if you're
not gonna be micro managing it is like finding a
partner that understands the markets. And I think that that's
the same thing as like if you do a licensing
deal or if you do uh clothing, and you know,
like more and more I meet you know, aspiring um
musicians who want to do all these different things, which

(01:18:53):
is cool, Like a lot of them are really cool
and a lot of them are really big already you
know or whatever. UM, But I think you have to
be you gotta be careful like who your partners are,
you know, I mean, I think you have to work
with people that you know are going to be honest
with you. And I don't know, like I mean, I've
never had a um a written contract with crush I think,

(01:19:16):
you know, I remember like j D told me, like
I don't I don't ever want to be in court
uh with somebody that I work with. And and that's
like the thing that makes the most sense to me
is that, like you have to find partners that like
where you understand each other and you understand each other's
strengths and weaknesses and you try to fill in those cracks.
So how did the bar end? Oh man? So the bar, so,

(01:19:37):
the one that we had in New York was basically
like this tiny, tiny, tiny bar in in Alphabet City
and it was impossible going to drink when it was filled,
and we had great karaoke there. But basically they would
send like, uh, a twenty year old undercover police officer
like one year and would you know, like it's so

(01:19:58):
hard listen, I'm not alreading at the door, but like
obviously like the tabloid headline, it's like that I am,
you know, but like a thirty thousand dollar ticket can
put you out of business when you're a bar that small,
you know what I mean? So did you wait? It
never became my bar until it was like in in
the tabloid headline when it was like served to an
underage cop, it was my bar, but like otherwise it

(01:20:19):
wasn't okay. So what do you think of the tabloids
and uh and social media discussion today? Um, I mean,
I think the people are able to use social media
in a way that, uh, you're able to respond to
things that are you know, like you're able to like
like I follow Kim Kardashian and she's able to respond

(01:20:41):
and be like that's not true. This is true, Like
this is actually what happened, you know, like Kanye didn't
fall off a horse at Sunday Service. That's not real
or whatever. You know, like in a way that I
guess you couldn't have before. Um, And I think that,
like it's interesting because there's like a whole lot of people.
It's just like again there's like the cow as. I'm
so big between like the people who are like living

(01:21:03):
old like mystery and people who are like like the
new age who film everything. You know, there's just like
a big divide between them, you know what I mean,
that's clearly like a generational divide. You know, I lived
next to I used to live next to YouTuber's. Um.
They were the nicest people that I think that I've
ever had as neighbors. But like you would go, you

(01:21:25):
go to their house and they film like absolutely everything,
you know, right, Well, you know, most YouTubers burned out
because they gotta to create that content satiate their audience
on a regular basis. But you were tabloid fodder when
you were married to Ashley Simpson. So how did what
was that experience, Like, Um, it's very difficult to It's

(01:21:49):
I think it's really hard to navigate life when there's
constantly headlines of people being like you're doing this, you're
doing that, You're not doing that, you know what I mean. Like,
I think it's until you realize that, like you just
want to you're just gonna be who you are, you
know what I mean. Like, and it doesn't really matter
if people take pictures of you, like picking your nose
or whatever. It is, like you just have to Once

(01:22:11):
you come to terms with that, then I think it's
all right. It's interesting, Like I listened to um Leonardo
and and I don't I'm not close enough with him
to call Leo, I think, but uh and and Brad
Pitt talking and they were just talking about how like
he was talking about how like you know, his friends
always find like you know, like try to find ways
to game the thing where they'll have they'll he'll they'll say,

(01:22:33):
like you put on I'll put on your hat and
I'll put on the sunglass and I'll walk out, you
know or whatever, and he's like it just never works,
and it's like it it doesn't, you know what I mean.
Like I think that like, uh, that relentless interest in
what entertainers or whoever do, like you know, like is

(01:22:54):
like like I had a guy yesterday who asked me, like,
what my opinion on like the Royal is leaving? And
I was like, I haven't even really like ever thought
of I don't know why anybody would want my opinion
because I just like have never even really never for
you to say something outrageous. I'm sure you know what
I mean. Um, it's just it's yeah, it's it's it's

(01:23:15):
super super super bizarre. Like it doesn't it feels like
you're in a simulation or something like that, you know
what I mean, Like it doesn't feel real life. Okay,
So at this late stage, you've achieved so much, but
is there a dream beyond this? Man, there's always dreams.
There's like you know, I remember our band, Uh, this

(01:23:38):
is a dream, an unachieved dream that I don't think
we can't that I don't think we can achieve. But
it was this is the way that I think in
our band things is that I remember being late at
night and I was like, I want to be the
first band to play on every continent, all five continents,
emailed to my manager. He goes, it's great, there's seven continents,
but like, actually it's crazy. Uh and um, so we

(01:24:04):
went and we took uh. We went and played in Chile,
and then we took a trip to the southernmost point
of Chile, which is called Punta Arenas, and we basically
stayed in this town, um, waiting to fly to Antarctica,
and like we were taking a C one thirty or
something to Antarctica, but it was the runway was never
clear because we came at the very last time you
could really fly to Antarctica, and we were in this town,

(01:24:26):
in this hotel, and like the last interesting thing that
had kind of happened there was like sheep or something.
So we were like we were like the Beatles. Our
hotel was surrounded with people like freaking out, and how
many people lived there at that time. I think we
had the whole town outside of us, you know what
I mean. Like it was actually it was just it
was big because there was nothing else, you know what
I mean. Um, And we didn't end up we didn't

(01:24:48):
end up being able to make the we didn't end
up actually being able to ever fly to to Antarctica
and we never were the first man, I think Metallica
ended up doing Ittallica did go to Antic, so they
did that. They were know but like I think to me,
things like that are are interesting, like the playing places

(01:25:09):
that we've never been and uh, like that's what's interesting.
And like being and learning from the cultures and being
able to like infuse that back into the music and
like that's what's interesting. Those are like the like I
mean the stadium tour um, like these things are all
like okay, But you're a multifaceted guy. Dude, what do
you see yourself? You see yourself as a bass player,

(01:25:31):
a lyric writer, member of the band, uh A and
R guy, how do you see yourself? What's the most
important thing to you? Oh, it's my the most important
thing to me, um, besides my family. Um. You know.
I I always talked to my manager J D H

(01:25:52):
and I think that you know, we talked about like
how his book or my book would be titled like
My Proximity to Greatness, And it's like I just really
like being around people and like pouring the gasoline on
their thing and like seeing their thing happen and be
a part of it. You know what I mean, and
especially when it's like something that nobody ever thought was
gonna happen, you know what I mean, or like it

(01:26:13):
came out of nowhere, and that's like the most exciting
to me. And like seeing like you know, Brendan you know,
backflipping with like Taylor Swift on a you know, like
I'm like, oh my god, like is this happening? Like
this kid was like in you know, like I was
looking at Santa and the christ Child at his house
like thinking like oh my god, like what am I doing?
You know? I mean, like so those that's for sure

(01:26:34):
the most exciting thing to me is like the rooting
for the underdog when the underdog like gets a hidden
you know. I mean, like that's by far the most interesting. Okay,
you pretty much have access to anything. Your name big
enough opens every door or not. Oh no, I don't
think so. I think that like so like man, it's

(01:26:56):
so funny because I think the access keeps changing as
you go up, you know what I mean, Like we
play you know, uh uh President Obama's inaugural ball and
and oh book that I mean, I guess it probably
went through c A, you know what I mean, that
he has seven ball. The the president has seven balls,
and there was a youth ball and at the youth ball,

(01:27:17):
I guess they probably I don't know, I don't know
what the algorithm is, but they got us Usher and
Kanye okay uh and you know, like we were we
were at the We were there and they were like,
there's all kinds of things. They were like, we put
a carpet over the Presidential seal because nobody steps on
the seal, you know what I mean at all? Okay,

(01:27:39):
And I was like, this blows my mind, you know
what I mean. There's all these things, you know whatever.
And we were standing there and then you know, President
Obamas did there standing on the seal and I was like, well,
I guess, like you know what I mean, like there's
a little yeah, so there's like levels of all of it,
you know what I mean. And they were kind of
like they were like when Potus is in the building,
they were like, if your base brakes, if your techniques

(01:28:02):
to run out, don't run out. They're like, that's not
you are a target if that happens, you know, I
mean like and it was like, oh, so there's like
these points of access that are beyond all of it,
you know what I mean. Okay, Well, that's President United States.
Especially now in the era of internet cacophony, we have Trump.
Everybody knows and everybody else is trying to get in.

(01:28:22):
But if you wanted to reach Obama, could you okay,
anybody in the entertainment business your name opened the door anywhere?
I mean, is there anywhere that you can't go or whatever?
Or you'd have to use your connections? Oh that I
don't have to use my connections. Maybe there's people that

(01:28:42):
like in my phone that I like, Yeah, I have
Drake in my phone as a number as a name
to make sure that if I'm overserved at a restaurant
that I don't accidentally or not accidentally text him and say, like, dude,
you're the best fucking lyricist of all time, because I'm like,

(01:29:02):
I don't want to be that guy, you know what
I mean? Okay, So who are you? The type of
guy who hangs with famous people, the people that I
think are famous, like that that are famous to me
because I go, I'm telling you, I'm the guy that
corrected all of my eighties toys and stuff like that.
I want to meet, like Mr t and stuff. Like that,
you know what I mean? Like, uh, I guess what

(01:29:23):
I'm asking is certainly when you move up the ranks. Okay,
forget what the hoi POLOI thinks. Oh you know, these
are famous people. These people it's like they say, why
a rock stars very models because they have the same schedule.
They get up at noon, go to bedefrood in the morning.
They don't have regular commitments. So as you get closer
and closer to the belly of the beast, you find
other like minded people. So there are some people despite that,

(01:29:47):
who are still singular, supposedly Fred Astaire, you know, droving
the limo alone. Then there are other people, Laura's being
an example. He knows everybody and hangs with everybody. I
love hanging with everybody. I love meeting. I do believe
in meeting your heroes or people that you think are cool.
And if you don't like them, then that's cool. You
just learned something about them that doesn't change the music
or the movie to me. Uh. But I think that

(01:30:09):
there are levels of access that are beyond you know
what I mean, Like, I think that like, um, you
can hang with these like so like you know, like
you go to parties that there's like tech guys that
like the billionaire tech guys or whatever, Like they're not
giving me access to invest when they invest in companies.
They're not calling me up and being like, listen, we

(01:30:31):
got this group together, were the a group and like
this is what we get. Like I don't get that
called like I don't have that access, and I don't
know what that if that access comes with money, or
if that access comes with success within tech or whatever
it is. I mean, I I definitely can call any
of those guys and probably go to like Katsuya with them,
but it's like a different level of access to me,

(01:30:53):
you know what I mean? Like I don't when I
go and pitch something, I don't even really want to
pitch something to somebody who can't green I did in
the room, like if you if the guy can't make
the decision, I don't want to talk to right. It's
not it's just not really were like this town is
a town where everybody takes meetings about everything and nothing
ever happens. Makes me crazy. Okay, So what do you

(01:31:14):
think about the music today? The like, what do I
think about how it sounds? Or No, we're in an era.
I mean this brings this goes into the other element
that I referenced earlier. One if you go to streaming
Spotify top fifty, generally speaking all hip hop, a little
pop okay, And even though there are outlets for other sounds,

(01:31:37):
they have a fraction of the mind share, and we
can also say a fraction of the plays. But it
gets so complicated that break there. Then in addition, many people,
uh you reference this a little bit earlier, they're really
interested in becoming a brand. The music is just a
vehicle to sell ship, become famous, etcetera, so irrelevant of

(01:32:00):
the music itself. What do you think about that? I mean,
I think that it's all of these things have always existed,
whether it's people who put billboards up of themselves or
their movies or whatever. It's just now we have like
more of a window into these people actually doing it
in real time. And we've seen people who found success

(01:32:21):
doing that, you know, or doing quote unquote nothing, you
know what I mean, Like we've seen it, so you
know that it's attainable. So I think people think that
they can they can do it as well. I mean,
it does feel like at some point some of that
bubble will burst and people will be known for some
of their talents. Um more so, and I think that
the people listen. I think that, like whatever it is,

(01:32:44):
whatever reality show it is, and I like all this stuff.
I watch all this stuff. But whatever reality show it is,
or whatever tech game it is, or whatever thing it is,
like no one when you get your heartbroken, you don't
go and go like, well, thank god I opened that
app because I always you know, like that helped me.
Or like you have the best day of your life,
You're still watching films and listening to songs, and you

(01:33:04):
know what I mean, Like those are the things that
I think that, like you set your life by, like
these big moments in your life by um, I think
that there's room for all of it. I do think
we live in the hip hop world. I mean, I
think you're crazy if you don't think that. Um. I
go to my kids school and every kid is trying
to be Kanye Fresh, you know what I mean, And
I see see that happening in real time. I think

(01:33:26):
that there's the pie is super super super big, So
there's room for really all of it, you know. I mean,
like I think that, but it's very hard to get noticed. Yes,
so getting noticed now. This is the thing that I
think with getting noticed now is that you have to
be unashamed. I had these kids come up to me
in a parking lot, uh the other day in Van

(01:33:47):
Nuys at the Van Nuys Laser tag and they come
up to me in the parking lot and they were like,
listen to this thing. I listened to it. I liked it,
and we ended up having to talk. And I think
you have to be you have to be cool with
doing that, you know what I mean, Like you have
to go out to people and like get them to
notice you. Um. But I also think that it's super
super important to be true to who you are. Like

(01:34:08):
chasing just doesn't work. Okay, let's assume they give the
tape to you, the CD that whatever, the file, and
you think it's good. You and me both know there's
an occasional thing you here we go. This is stratospheric.
I heard it once. This is gonna go. It's just
about assembling the team. But I listened to like x

(01:34:29):
MU on the satellite or I'll go through playlist on Spotify,
and I say, well, that's pretty good. But unless someone
puts some gasoline on it. Chances I could be the
only person who heard it. So let's just assume you
have a team together, okay, and you're uh, forget hip hop,

(01:34:49):
it's a world done to itself, another kind of music.
How do you set about getting yourself noticed by a
label or by the world at world at law. I
think you have to you have to do. You have
to be making great music. You have to make great songs.

(01:35:10):
And I think that still great songs can stand on
their own. Like you look, and if you don't have
great songs, then I don't know, it's a different story.
But like if you look at a band like Fun,
uh or you you know, like there's these bands that
come along and you're like, it's great, you know, I
mean it's for whatever reason, like it's great. It feels
like a different era, but it feels kind of like

(01:35:31):
this era at the same time. Um, and I don't
and I don't. If you don't have greatness, then there's
gonna be And and besides the greatness, there's so much
of Like is that you have to be ready to
swing the bat when you step up to the plate,
Like when you get a chance to step out to
the plate, there's deliver. Yeah, there's so many people that
like they're waiting for their chance, waiting for the chance.
They get their chance, and they don't do it, you

(01:35:51):
know what I mean, Like you can don't do it
because they funk up, or they're scared, or they they
second guess themselves and or they're so nervous about like
their friends are like that's selling out, and so they
do the wrong you know. Like there's so many versions
of it, you know that, And I feel like I've
seen so many versions of it. Um. The truth is
it's super hard, Like it's more democratic than ever because

(01:36:12):
everybody can make music and there's so much out there.
It's so hard, Like how does music last anymore? How
did things stay? You know what I mean? How did things?
They have to be either really great or really terrible
to say, and even if they're really terrible, they kind
of go away, you know what I mean. To stay,
it has to be so great and it has to
the Other thing is even the most the biggest people
on the chart, fewer people know them than ever before. Yes,

(01:36:36):
it's harder to get mind here at large and say
unless you're literally president something else which is well publicized.
I'm gonna ask you about it. Supposedly you're bipolar. Is
that true. Yeah, I was. Yeah, I was diagnosed years ago. Um. Yeah,
and it's something that like for a long time, I

(01:36:57):
tried to self medicate, um, and that didn't really work
out that well, you know what I mean. Like I
think I went into the I think that I went
into the idea that like I didn't need talk therapy
and I could just figure it out on my own.
I could use either alcohol or pills and I could
kind of figure it out, you know, when I was
on tour and I didn't want to like suppress the

(01:37:18):
creativity and that kind of thing. Um. But I think
since having kids, I kind of wanted to be I
want what I wanted to be present, and I wanted to, um,
be able to like kid around and not be kind
of ruled by my moods and you know, and and
and at the same time also be like it's okay

(01:37:40):
for you to like feel not great, you know, I mean,
like it's okay, any of this stuff is okay. It's
all um. And so I mean since then, I've found
ways to have like you know, like to to do
therapy and to talk and to know that like, just
because you're feeling better, it's not gonna like stifle your
creativity that kind of thing. What is the number one

(01:38:02):
thing or two things you learned in therapy? The therapy
never ends really that you're tell my girlfriends, yeah, that
you're never cured, you know, like you just it's not
you know what I mean? Um? And I think that
the other thing that I learned, um, but it's harder
to apply, is that you've got to be kind to yourself.

(01:38:24):
It's it's hard to be I think that. Give me
an example, being mean to yourself, being too hard on yourself,
whether you're doing like little like whether it's like little
things as far as like when you're playing a sport
or something and you're like I suck and like I
won't be good, or like my you know, my band's
not signed or whatever it is, you know, like all
the you know, like I think that people are not
particularly kind to themselves because we live in a world

(01:38:45):
where you we live in a really fake world, you
know what I mean, Like where people think that everybody
else's life is awesome and you feel super fomo about
everything and it's not real, you know what I mean,
Like it's like it's not real, I promise, Like all
these people, everybody in my phone and every anybody, like
all these people have like bad days and I do
really respect that. Like people like kid Cutty and and

(01:39:06):
Kanye and whoever, like jay Z like have spoken you know,
like it's aside from the really young rappers have like
spoken out and talked about like the the idea that
like everybody kind of has, like this mental health is
something that everybody deals with because I think that's it's
really important and we can still live like these aspirational lives.
But like there's no like if you're not whole before

(01:39:28):
you go into it, it's not gonna fill the whole,
you know what I mean, Like it's not gonna there's
not like a whole theory about that that a lot
of you know, going back to the pre social media era,
you have a lot of guys who were not who
are socially awkward, and they felt if they wrote hit songs,
their lives would work. And when they found out it
didn't make their lives work, they could write anymore. It's

(01:39:48):
for sure, I mean, and for sure it doesn't make
you It doesn't like you're it's like there's a you know,
I'm like a I'm like a total movie geek, you
know whatever, more than anything. And uh, you know, like
there's a moment in Empire strikes Back where like looks
like going in this like cave of darkness or whatever,
and he's like, don't my lightsaber and you know, just
like you only bring what you you take in with you,

(01:40:09):
you know, I mean, you don't need it basically, and
he brings it in anyway and then fights a version
of himself spoiler whatever. But it's true in life, you
know what I mean. Like it's like there's none of
these like when you come out the other side, like
you'll have different experiences. But I don't think you like
it doesn't it doesn't feel the whole Like you gotta
figure that out on your own, you know what I mean.
And do you take medication now? I don't take medication now,

(01:40:30):
but I do a lot of therapy. Okay, someone who
does a lot of therapy themselves. How much therapy is that? Uh?
Probably twice a week? Okay? How long with the same person?
Five years? No? Four years now? Maybe? And does your
wife go to she does not? No, no, no, she

(01:40:51):
she is probably the of the more level people that
I don't know whatever. People are on their own, but
there was sometimes you're interacting in a relationship and you've
gained these insights and therapy. Are you ever frustrated that
your wife doesn't have the same insights? Um? I mean,

(01:41:13):
I think in arguments you get frustrated about everything. But
I think that there's like a danger in like being
like I've I've read this, or I learned that you
can't say that we know, but I'm interacting forget significant others,
and you see people acting that a certain way and go,
holy sh it. If they had a little therapy, they'd
never act that way and it would work out better
for them. I think I see stuff where people are

(01:41:34):
freaking out about the wrong thing all the time, Like, um,
like you'll be people will be like like mad, they're
broke because they spend all their money on the shoes,
but like they want the people to think they live
in the bowler house, but they're spending the money on

(01:41:54):
the shoes, so they're never gonna get to the bowler house.
And like I'm always like, I mean that's just like
one specific thing. It like sometimes it feels like if
you work through things in therapy, you can see like
the bigger picture for yourself, you know what I mean, Um, yeah,
because I mean it can be otherwise it's like super
frustrating and it feels like you're going through life and
you don't like you don't see like it's you're in
the matrix, you know, and there's other people who are

(01:42:15):
like seeing all the numbers and you're just not seeing it.
And I've definitely felt like I've been on both sides
of that. Okay, Pete, this is being fantastic, has been fantastic.
Thanks so much for sitting here telling me all. Your
story's being so opens. Okay, until next time. This is
Bob left Us

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Bob Lefsetz

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