Phil Carson

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast.
My guest today is musician promotion man A and R
man manager Phil Carpson. Hello, good evening and welcome. Okay,
how'd you sign a c d C? I signed a
c d C in It was luck, as most things

(00:30):
are in the A and R business. And I don't
care who tells you differently. It's ninety five percent luck
of being in the right place at the right time
and five percent knowing that what is put in front
of you might be worth something. And such was the
case with a c d C. I was running Atlantic
Records outside of America at the time, and so you

(00:51):
have the whole world other than America, whole world of
America at that time. You remember how many offices were there, Well,
the only Lantic office is where Los Angeles and New
York and mine in London. But we had distribution throughout
the world through w E A. Right. But did did
you have any people, I mean, like, did you have

(01:13):
somebody in Sydney? No, we had. We had a label
manager in Cynema, but but he was not employed by Atlantic.
He was employed by the distributor, by our owned distribution company,
which is w e A right? So you got after
when it was already you got in it was already
brianched distribution, but I interrupted. You told me the story.
Well we're getting into that in a minute, because it

(01:34):
was not quite the case. But you know, we go
back to that. So the story of a C d
C is this. I'd signed a band called Backstreet Crawler,
and Back Street Crawler was put together by Paul Kozov, who,
as you know, was the guitarist in Free, in that
wonderful guitar solo in all Right Now and Here, put
a band together and actually done a tour and recorded

(01:56):
a one live show which I heard and I thought this,
this is fabulous. When he's done is fabulous. So you know,
I signed the band and I was in the project
and I just felt it missed a tiny little something
and it needs I thought it needed some keyboards in
the mix. So I tracked down this guy that occasionally

(02:18):
played for the Who Do You Put the Crazy? Played
in the Free and later he played in the Who
Buzz Bundrick Rabbits. Yeah, so you know, I'm trying to
find where the fund can I find this guy? You know?
So I've called around all the studios and eventually I
found that somebody calling me. I said, oh, well, he's

(02:39):
managed by this Australian girl, you know. So I got
in contact with this young woman. Her name was Coral Browning,
and Coral in those days, she maybe twenty three or
twenty four. So she comes into my office and she
is dropped dead gorgeous Coral, and you know, really so

(03:01):
it's very nice. But she was so professional, you know.
She we made the deal for to record on these tracks.
And then she said to me, she said, I hope
you don't think this is unprofessional of me, but can
I talk to you about something else? Well, she could
have talked to me about. So she brought out a
thing that I've never seen before and certainly never seence

(03:23):
since it looked like a briefcase and it opened up
like a briefcase, but in the Jaws, so to speak,
a screen pop down. This is before the age of videos,
so it was a back projection machine that ran Super
eight with with audio and it was it was. It

(03:46):
was a C d C doing a long way to
the top. I caught it almost every day, So people
don't realize that today's era, it's truly a long way
to the Oh yeah. So anyway, she plays me this
thing and and she always reminds me. I stopped it
halfway through. I said, stop, I said, just tell me

(04:07):
again about this bad She said, well, you know, my
little brother manages the band from Australia and at that time,
and I said, who gave nobody cared what happened in
Australia the easy Beats, you know, by the way, one
of the easy Beats was it turns out the brother
of a young brother, so of which there are many.

(04:28):
So I said, look, he said. She said. This is
a record contany called Alberts, and they're pretty big over
there and a CDC are doing really well, to the
point where they want to get signed. So they've given
me a budget to bring the band to England. And look,
I've already set up these dates. And she gives me
this list of dates with all the opinion making places

(04:49):
around London, and she said, well, perhaps you'll you'll come
and see them. I said, I don't know. I said,
what if I signed him now? And we'll we'll call
your little brother on the phone and let's see we
can get this done. And then the record company can
still send them over, but I'll put them on a tour.
In fact, I'm going to put them on the Backstreet

(05:11):
Crawler tour to open the Backstreet Crawler. So it says
you can do that. I said, I can do that.
So we called Michael Browning and I made the deal
for a c d C over the phone, which is
a matter of records. I'm not giving you any unknown
information here, but I signed a c d C for
dollars per album delivered finished and how many albums, Well,

(05:36):
it's an interesting question because I signed them with the
options and I said, okay, we want three albums a year,
and we want four options after the first year. So
your math will tell you. That was a fifteen album
deal which turned out to be the most profitable record
deal in the history of the music business. The last album,

(05:58):
which was sold by Atlantic to Sony, was sold for
ten million dollars. Now this was before the days when
I and our people got a piece of the action.
But you know when it started to do when Art
and bought me up Bentley, So I was thankful for that.
But okay, well, Richard Griffith's he was the agent. He

(06:18):
tells a story of of course, Paul Kossof dies on
the way to do the gig. That's right, he did,
and then he says a CDC decided to play anyway,
and he said they were like five people in the
audience and when they played, those five people left and
they thought because they did the whole thing with Angus
on the shoulders whatever. Sure, and he said they called

(06:41):
everybody they knew for the second set totally four it's
more or less true than what happened. We obviously had
to cancel the actual Paul, but so we set them
up in some pubs around London and it was incredible.
It caught far really quickly, and then they're doing the
marquee and it's all moving along. And you know, I

(07:03):
compiled the first album from their two first Australian records,
High Voltage and whatever whatever, right, whatever it was, and
that that's what made the first A c d C
album had six tracks each each record. So, now, did
you stay with a c d C as their representative
at the label all through their career there? Sure? Yeah, Okay,

(07:26):
so the question becomes, uh, dirty Deeds is not released
in America when it's when it's recorded correctly, So what
was the company's viewpoint on the act. At that point
in time, the and our department hated them. Okay, they
said this they're going nowhere. This is a derivative album,

(07:48):
and you know we're passing. Fortunately I managed to intercept
it before the drop notice went out, but that took
a little while to do. So we actually did lose
one album out of my fifteen because of that decision.
But you know, nobody thought they were going anywhere. And
of course what happened later on, many years later, after

(08:11):
we've made Back in Black, Um, I got a call
from Doug Morris, who was by then president of Atlantic, saying, look,
you know we want to release we found we don't
have We never put this album because I put it
out in Europe, by the way, uh, and we're gonna
put it out now. And I remember saying him, are
you crazy, because what are you going to do? You're

(08:33):
following a Brian Johnson vocal with a Bond Scott vocal.
He said, yeah, but look, it's towards the end of
the year. We've had a great year. You know this
is going to infect effect all our Christmas bonuses. I said,
it will, no doubt do that, Doug. But what it's
going to do is create a new sales plateau for

(08:55):
a C d C. He said, what do you mean.
I said, we look at the time, we sold five
million back in Blacks, and he said, we're going to
do two million with this worse way. I said, you're right,
we'll do two million, but you'll never have an A
C d C album again that does more than two million.
And I was pretty well right on that. Okay, let's
dig a little deeper. So the last album with Bond

(09:15):
Scott is produced by Mutt Lang. How does that come together?
John Kalodna, We then enjoy, you know. And John was
really here and I used to work a lot together
on making these kind of decisions. And he had seen
what Matt had done with a with a group called Tycoon,
which was an Atlantic release, and he and Jerry Jerry Greenberg,

(09:39):
Jerry Greenberg thought that this would be a very good
mix to put together and it turned out to be
to be magic. Actually. Okay, now, Back in Black still
to this moment, one of the great albums of all
time for those about to rock, didn't live up to
that level artistically irrelevant of sales. Let's think about it

(10:01):
that you know, Dirty Deeds came out in the middle,
so suddenly you've got a confused audience. Who's the singer
of a c d C. Is it this new guy
from Newcastle or is it this great bare chested rock
and roller bond Scott. You know, it was confusing. So
we did do two million with with and then we

(10:22):
did two million with for Those About Rock, which I
thought was a pretty good album. Had Doug not made
that monumental error, a c d C would have really
kept going at that kind of level, but it took
the steam out of it. And then after Those About
the Rock they had a couple of albums which didn't
do that work. Flicking with a Switch, Fly on the

(10:43):
Wall were not particularly good. They also made an internal
mistake they took Brian Johnson out of the writing mix.
One of the reasons that Back in Black did so
well was his kind of slightly tongueing, tongue in cheek lyrics,
which with anybody else could be cheesy, but with him
they worked really well. They touched a nerve in America

(11:07):
and all over the world, and at that album now,
I think it's something like twenty five million. That album
was done, Okay, some people I won't mention their names,
but closely involved said a lot of that music was
written before barn Scott died. Is that true? Back in Black?
Back in they had some riffs that that is absolutely true. Yes,

(11:29):
it is true, But the actual lyrics and the melodies
that went on them was really the work of Brian
and of course mate Langer. I okay, and then I
didn't know that Brian was that involved on the lyrics
at that point. How did you were you involved in
finding Brian? I was They had met Brian finally enough
at a show in Newcastle years ago in a club

(11:51):
after an A C d C show, and bon Scott
arrived at their table and said, if anything happens to me,
this is your right. And because he was then in
a group called Jordan, which you know doing doing pretty well.
But yeah, I was involved in making the deal for
him to join A C d C with I think
Peter Men should taken by then, who did an amazing

(12:15):
job with the A C D. So then he got fired,
well yeah he did. Whether he fell foul of the
Young's eventually. I mean it's not for nothing that they're
called the brothers Grim Okay, how'd you get your job
with Atlantic Records. To begin with, Uh, it's very interesting. Really,
I've actually left the music business for a while and

(12:35):
I was actually in the supermarket game. What then, that
begs a question, So you're you grew up where in London?
In London when your father do for a living? I
would say your mother, But at that point usually women
didn't tend to work. They said, my mother did not work.
My father was with with with a tea company, and
my uncle was with a small supermarket company. So everybody said, well,

(12:58):
the food business is great, so you've got to get
in there. So I first of all them joined the
lines before we go. How many siblings? Brothers and sisters? None?
Now you're the only kid. Hey, well they've achieved the ultimate?
What do you want? So do you think they only
wanted to have one kid? I told them they couldn't

(13:19):
have any more at that point. Okay, okay, but a
lot of times you're the only kid, you know, you're
coddle the hopes and dreams or story after story. Rick
Rubin was an only kid. What was it like? Were
your parents very accepting of you? Or you were a rebel?
I was not a rebel. I went to I did
pretty well at school, you know, so I was in
I was destined to kind of university. But you know,

(13:43):
I caught the bug. You know, in England we got
this perverse way of school works. It's not the great
system that you guys have a good English school. You
go right up to the age of nineteen. They call
it the sixth form. There's two years in the sixth form,
which are probably good is four years in American university.
I hate to say that, it is true. So I

(14:05):
did not go into the sixth form. I left before
simply because the boys in the sixth form and a
rock band and as as a skiffle band. Actually, because
before you're are we in okay, long before the Beatles.
It was before the Beatles. Lonnie darn again, all that stuff.
Lonnie Donegan certainly was around. Yeah, it was rock Island

(14:27):
Line and all those great songs and this little acoustic
guitar band and when they were taking a break and
pick up their guitars and plays away. So eventually I
decided that, you know, I wanted to play music while
I was still at school and the easiest job. I
wasn't a great guitar player, but then I realized that
a bass guitar, Sandy got four strings, so it's a

(14:48):
little easier to articulate four strings and six. So I
bought a bass guitar and kind Hofner Okay, just not
the same as Paul mcconny, but another model of And
that was how I started and joined the local band.
Funny enough, the local band I was in was based
in Southeast London, where all the great guitar players came from. Really,

(15:11):
so not when you know this, but Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck,
Jimmy Page, Mit Green, who was an amazing guitar player
in a band called Johnny kin and the Pirates. Was
that Peter Green related to Peter Green? No, Mick Green.
You've got to check out. I mean, Johnny Kinning Parks
never made it here. We read about it in English

(15:31):
stress right, Yeah, but if you listen to that group,
they so those three and uh, Mr Green, who do
you personally think is the best. I've got to give
it to Jimmy Page really, Although I love Jeff Beck's style,
I mean he's incredible. I mean he plays with no pick.
I saw him in concert recently and he did something

(15:53):
just on harmonics. It was what was that damn song?
It was a big old standard of it's time. Judy
Garland was in the movie what's the famous movie? Oh,
you're talking about over the Rainbowl? Exactly over the rainbow
they were. I wasn't too far out of anyway. He
played that song on harmonics. I don't think he played

(16:14):
like a regular note. It was all harmonics. I'm listening
to this guy. Oh my god, what a player. Well,
I think he's the best player. Obviously Jimmy could write
and produce the Jeff couldn't. That's right. But okay, so
you're playing with this band. It's a skiffle band. I no,
by then, I sort of that was the school band.
But by then I bought a bass guitar. It was

(16:35):
an early rock group. You know. We just we covered
all the gene vincent things that that's okay? Was that
your only job? No, it's still at school. But you
didn't go to sixth form. I did not. I left
it when I was just seventeen, okay, So I was
doing that since I was fifteen, okay, And did the
breast of the band also leaves school? Well, they I
was not at school with the rest of them. That.

(16:57):
Actually I joined a group that was already already going,
you know, So could you make a living working for
absolutely not. That was just like a semi pro little band,
you know. But I got the bunk, you know, I
thought I wanted to play and okay, so did you
have a day job. I didn't have a day job
at that point. No, I was still at school. I'm
telling you, let's but what out of school at school

(17:20):
and you're playing in the band. You have it? Your
parents say, hey, you gotta a bike. I got a
litt if. I got a job for a little while.
I wanted to be a rocket scientist. I really did.
So I got a job at the Air Ministry in London,
which lasted about I don't know, four or five weeks,
and I was in English. People love an acronyms. Acronyms,

(17:41):
you know that said it was Sam for two Ways,
Scientific Advisor to the Air Ministry. I loved that. So
so there I wasn't there, and somehow I can't even
remember how I got to offer to join a group
called the Londoners. The Londoners was a seminal English band.

(18:01):
This was I guess when was that nineties sixty sixty two. Okay,
the Londons that had just come back from Hamburg and
they were really on it. They were really happening band.
You can read about them. I don't think they made
a couple of records in Hamburg. They yeah, they didn't
make it at all here, but I heard the name. Yeah, Well,

(18:23):
so I joined this band. And my grandmother, who had
been a showgirl in the early part of the twentieth century,
says to me, she said, well, look though she was
a show bises lady and her my aunt, who was
a daughter, you know, it was also in the in
the show business, says She says. You know what guitar?

(18:44):
What what guitar? Do? Player said, when I play a
half in a bass guitar show, I don't know what
a bass guitar is? What is I said, well, it's
like a bass Okay. He said, well, what's the best one?
I said, well, Fender Precisions is going to be the
best one. She says, you were, just go and get one.
I'll pay for it. Said why you know how much
they are? They are a hundred and twenty five pounds,

(19:05):
you know, which She's right, about two hundred dollars. So
she says, yeah, just go and get it. You know.
I said, wow, thank you, and she the you needed
one of those box things that goes with you know
that thing. So you didn't hear I said, what he has?
It's an ample, Like what's the best amplifier? So now
I'm no, I'm gonna roll. I said, well, it's a

(19:27):
Fender basement amplifier. You know, nobody had a Fender basement app.
I mean I've seen one in the shop window in
Charing Cross Road and it was the bee's knees. Now
you've got to realize, back in those days, the first
question when you call up for a job as a
musician was what you've got? Okay, Fender base, Fender base,

(19:47):
Oh yeah, okay, good. If you had a van, you've
got you've got the gig without even playing. So but
I didn't have a van at that point, but I
did get the gig, and I wasn't a bad base player.
I wasn't bad, okay, but a little bit slower. If
Londoners were happening, how do you get the gig? Do
you know? I honestly don't remember. It must have been

(20:08):
a phone call or something. Musicians used to hang out
those days in charing Cross Road in London, and there
was a particular store where it was the birthplace of
a lot of bands. It was Jennings Music Store. That's
where they were the Vox distributor, Vox Aunt districtor, and
down says they had a basement. I mean back in

(20:29):
those days, I was actually in a band with Jeff Beck.
It lasted nearly all day, so but you know, we're
still friends and we were jamming down. Then we're going
to start a band together. I remember driving around London
looking for particular musicians to join this band, but it
never went past that. Okay, well I'm getting more of

(20:50):
a fuel. Okay, so you joined the Londoners and you
weren't that going a bass player. What happens next, well
that the Londoners were a really strong band. I mean
they really great players. They were one of the first
mans to start playing Ray Charles music, for example. So
the only place people like to hear what they had
to offer actually with the American basis around around England.

(21:14):
So that's where we played a lot. And you know,
you're playing like three sets a night, and it was
it showed me what you had to do. And then
I saw an ad in a in a melody make
I think it was which as the old English paper
bass player wanted to join vocal group. I can't sing

(21:34):
for ship, but still I'll phone up and it turns
out it's a group called the Springfields, okay, which is
in those days it was Dusty Springfield and brother Tom
and Mike Hurst. Mike Hurst went on to produce early
Cat Stevens records. So you know, the same conversation, what
do you play with sender base? So but this time

(21:55):
there was an audition which I passed and I joined
the Springfields and that was fantastic. I mean they had
two hits right then, that Islander Dreams and say I
won't be there, and we're playing all these big places,
well big two thousand seat package tours, you know in England.
I think it was pretty much the same in America.

(22:16):
But they used to have these package tops that would
go out and I remember doing them with Del Shannon,
Johnny tillottson. I mean, these were happening names of that time. Okay,
let's stop for a second. Yes, what are the Londoners
say when you're gonna quit? I can't repeat that in
I mean the band was sort of grinding to a halt,
to be honest with you. I mean they didn't like

(22:38):
doing these American bases. They couldn't get work anyplace else.
They were thinking of going back to Hamburg. But that
boat kind of sailed by. Okay, did you play on
those Springfield hits or these? Were they already released? They've
already released by the time I was just a touring
Musicis you understand? And now you're on tour with all
these people. Are you the type who ingratiates and becomes

(22:59):
friends with all the musicians or you stick to yourself?
Now I was out there, you know, I was, you know,
you gone great with Johnny Tillotson. Terrific guy, sort of.
I was in touch with him for years, actually know,
And it was it was like a family. These tours
are put together and they last, I don't know, three
to five weeks or whatever it is, and you become

(23:20):
a family, you know, and you're all traveling in the
same transport. By're on a bus, you know, but not
like sleepers. It's like a regular bus and Del Shannon
will be up there or Johnny or whatever the other
people we were playing with, and it was It was
pretty exciting, you know. So how long did it last
with you in the spring Fields? Just a matter of months.
And when they told me they were going to break

(23:41):
up in the city in sixty three. I joined in
sixty two and they why were they going to break up?
Because Dusty was going to go Dusty wanted to go
solo and she had some she she fell in love
with R and B music, you know what had happened.
They had gone to Memphis before I joined them to
record an album and she sort of fell in love

(24:01):
with R and B music while she was there, and
that she saw herself getting involved in that line of music.
The interesting thing is, you know, so I know the
band's going to break up, right, So Mike her sister, people, hey,
let's get a band together. Oh great, Mike, yeah we will.
The next day, Dusty said, would you come and be

(24:22):
my musical director? I said, I'm sorry, I just promised, Mike.
You know you're day late. So, to cut a long
story short, that Mike Hurst band never played a day
and Dusty went on to be Dusty Springfield. Well, okay,
so you didn't realize she was going to be Dusty
spring No, I knew she was gonna, I mean she was.
You've got no idea, Okay, were you What was it like?

(24:44):
Did you have a crush on Dusty Springfield? Actually she
was a very attractive young woman, I got to tell you.
But you know, and we used to hang out a
lot together, you know, frankly it was but it was
just fun. I mean that right, certainly, never I spect
a kind of bit of Okay, So she gets another
musical director, you're with my cursed that doesn't go with nowhere,

(25:07):
absolutely nowhere. So now I'm stuck with my Fender basement
and Fender basement amplifier and Vendor precision based guitar and
nowhere to go. So I start looking for other jobs.
And because I've been with the Springfields, okay, which was
a high hope, high profile, think, I was kind of
sought after, you know, scilly because I had the offender

(25:28):
base and Defender basement. At this point, with all this work,
you must be getting better. Oh I was certainly getting better,
but you know, I mean, you'd Jack Jaco Pastorius were
not up, not quite up at all. I mean in
later years in a way after this happens because when
I joined Atlantic, the guys in Zepplin. Knew I was

(25:49):
a musician. They used to let me play with them.
But where I having John Paul Jones to go over
and play keyboards and I will play bass and they
do some old rock songs. They've always very kind to me.
They did things which have just been three or four
chord changes, and that was. This is in rehearsal on
stage stage, come on. And the interesting is I say

(26:10):
this all the time. John Paul Jones could played better
bass with his feet the batles of a Hammond organ,
and I could ever manage. I mean, you listen to
since I've been loving you, the unbelievable baseline that's on
the Hammond. You know, he's just a monster musician. So
really I know I knew and made the right decision
because with players there, well that's just I remember myself.

(26:33):
But we all played guitars after the beatles, and I
went to my friend's house side the cheap Japanese guitar.
He had an E S three thirty five, and he said,
now we're going to change keys, and I said, I'm out.
That's right, yeah, okay, I get you. So the hearse
biand goes nowhere, nowhere, right, so I joined who the
first one I joined was Houston Wells and the Marksman.

(26:58):
I mean, I know you know that name well, okay,
So just to refresh those who have not heard of
Houston Walds and the Marksman. It was a English country
band which was could have been destined to go nowhere
except they had recorded with Joe Meek, the legendary Joe Meek,
who was really the first independent producer of note, and

(27:20):
they made a record Cad Only the Heartaches, which was
a country song and it was a hit and before
I joined and they had recorded it, so it was
a huge hit. So then now we're off doing package
tours with Houston Walds and the Marksman, supporting groups like
Billy J Kerryman, The Dakota's, Johnny Kid and the Pirates,

(27:42):
the Beatles. We supported the Beatles on their first tour
of Scotland. We were actually second on the bill to
the Beatles. See in those days, the pecking order of
where you were on the set was dependent on where
you were in the chart, and we had a big record.
I mean we were like chucking up thirty in on
the chart. Before they must have been higher up than

(28:04):
us because obviously they were the Beatles by then, but
we actually kept them off number one in Ireland for
a week. You know. It was a big Okay, I
remember when Beatlemania happened in America. Yes, what was it
like in the UK? At what point did you realize
this was just not another band? Oh boy? I mean
the night the first night, on the date of the tour,

(28:27):
I was sort of mouth almighty of the Houston Worlds
and the marks. We would start with an instrumental okay,
and we're we're wearing sort of country looking gear, you know,
and we're so we're up there and we'll playing this
thing called guitar boogie shovel, which is a straight kind
of twelve bar blues, and I'll get to the end
of it and we'd start the the riff of the

(28:50):
next song, you know, and it would be me that
would do. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen, how you're doing
out there? I now like to bring on the star
of our show, Houston World. Well, that introduction was fine.
When we were headlining the night in Glasgow, it didn't
go down so well because I did my thing. Hey,
I now like you to see the star of our

(29:10):
show and the audience went Houston Worlds, and so he
walked onto total silence. He didn't like that very much.
Very That's when I knew the Beatles owned by the way.
By then, I did have a van by them, and
it was a white van and it was exactly the
same as the Beatles van. So we're trying to get

(29:32):
out the gig. People think we're the Beatles and the
band's being rocked. So that's when I knew how big
the Beatles were. Okay, but musically, of course. The first
records came out in sixty two, yes, and it didn't
as I say. First, I Want to Hold Your Hand
was released the very end of sixty three in America.
She Loves You would come out earlier on Swan, but
no one had heard it. So when this stuff starts

(29:55):
to come out and everybody's there's a monoculture, everybody's listening
to the same radio show, etera, etcetera. When was it,
really when did the Beatles sort of take over the scene?
It was sixty three in England for sure. I mean
they were this tour. I can't remember what month it was,
to be honest with you, but by then they were
really rocking you know they were happening, so then were

(30:15):
you were fair? Oh? I thought they were terrific. You're
kidding me. I do remember one actually had that same
thing in Glasgow. Nobody had Rhodes in those days, including
the Beatles. They have one guy, so you know they
were there. They were on the side of the stage
and we were directly under them, so we were going
right before the Beatles, so they're they're checking us out.
And because you carry your own bloody amplifier onto the

(30:39):
stage and so you get oh notes, the appli was
already there, but you've got your guitar and my lead
in my head. Suddenly, just before we're going on, my
guitar lely crumbles and you know why America accord accords
exactly exactly, so it Paul McCartney's hey, Paul man, can

(31:05):
I borrow your cord? Sure? And he lends me the
guitar chord and the funny thing about That's the only
into action I had with Paul McCartney until years later
when I made a movie about Sun Records and there
was a documentary and I wanted Paul to do That's
all right, Mama, with Scotty Moore and d j Fontana

(31:26):
Elvis's guys, which he you know. I got a hold
of his manager and he said, look, I know who
you are. You ran Atlantic for years, I mean everybody.
I mean it was in London, everybody. I was there.
But so he says, did you do you know? Paul?
I said, well, you know, and he made him once
and told him this story, said put that in the
letter you like, and he did. You know, he agreed

(31:46):
to do this this thing with us, did but he
didn't remember giving he did. He didn't remember that. Of course,
of course they just wonder. You never know, things like Okay,
so you're playing and they have a hit with the
country styled act and what goes with what happens? Well,
we did another record with Joe Meet, which I was on,
and I mean just recording with Joe Meet was an

(32:07):
incredible experience. So what was it like, Well, it was
there's days before multi track had been invented, right, So
he had two I p s interest Brisono machines and
he would bounce tracks from one to the other. So
he would build a song, you know, by simply bouncing
tracks back and forth. And would he do that all

(32:28):
on the same day or would he mix after you left?
He mixed after we left. But by the time he
got to the end over dub, it was pretty done.
Because you can't actually go back. If you're using that principle,
you're going to go back one or two generations. So
but he would the band would basically do the track
live and he would would do it many times and

(32:50):
he'd eventually get it right. It was in a tiny
little it was above a leather goods store in northeast London.
It was like a two room apartment. It was intense
and the equipment was just these two machines and a
mix of which was a rotary knobs on. It very unsophisticated,
but he got the sounds, you know, and then the

(33:12):
last thing he would do put the vocal on and
that was it. But the second record went nowhere. Okay,
but at this point in time, there's beatle Mania. Sure
not longer after that people say, oh, I can make
a lot of dough doing this. Yes, was that somewhere
of the dream, No, because at the time, you know,
the next tour that we did with Houston Wells was

(33:35):
with Billy J. Cramer and the Dakotas, and I think
Johnny Kidd was on that. So by then this the
Mersey Beat thing had erupted and they're all the foremost
Siller black you know, we too, We tour with all
those people because in this short window where we had
a big hit, we were something a little bit different
to the Brian Epstein crew, which was the main fodder.

(33:59):
So we just would come in and do our little thing.
So how does it end with that? Badly? You know?
It was Houston World's got too big for his boots.
I didn't like him. I started a revolution and then
I find it was a revolution of one. So I
got the sack from Houston, Wales and the marksman who
then disappeared into oblivion. So it didn't really matter. But then,

(34:22):
because then I've been in the Springfields Houston worlds, and
I still had my offender base, offender base and a
van now okay, and I joined a group called the
Lawn Gibson Trio, which of course you've never heard of.
They they had they were a country band as well,
and they had one hit in England called Some Do

(34:42):
Some Don't. And they also had a radio series, believe
it or not, it's called Side by Side with the
Lawn Gibson Trio on BBC Radio, and each week we
would do record a show and it would be us
and another man, Wayne Fontana, and the I made vendors
Um the Beatles were on that show with us, you know.

(35:05):
So that lasted a little while. I can't quite remember.
By then, I was about nineteen, and I'm getting and
I'm not making any money, by the way, longer to type,
still living at home. He is still living at home,
you know, coming in late at night, and it's not
going down that well. And by then my uncle had
really started moving a little bit up the chain in

(35:28):
the supermarket business. So he said, look, you know, I
can't bring it. The companies too small to bring you
in now, because but if you go and learn the
business somewhere else, you know, then we can put you
in there. He eventually, by the way, became chairman of
safe Way Europe. So wow, okay, he was really in
the supermarket. He really was. In fact, he tried to
buy a safe Way with the leverage buy and that's

(35:50):
the kind of guy he was. So anyway, so I
get a job with another supermarket and one day the
guy who was with a salesman for Maxwell house coffee
and of course birds Custard that you know well came
into you know, take the weekly order, and he's got

(36:10):
a guy in a nice suit with him and I'm
on the floor pricing up cans of beans or something,
you know. So the guy in the nice suits, we've
heard a lot about you. You're one of the youngest
supermarket managers in London. I said, well, yeah, I suppose
i am. He says, um, well, we've got a training
program that General Foods and I only usually hire university graduates,

(36:36):
but you're now about the right age, and do you
want to join it? And I joined General Foods and
I was there for almost four years, and it was
really changed my life, actually because I then completely stopped playing.
I didn't even pick the guitar up again. My actually

(36:56):
my precision base got stolen. I remember that so really
disheartened me. And I went and thought, I'm going to
do this. And I was in the General Foods product
development group and doing marketing and setting up sales campaigns
and this, that and the other, and uh that's that
led to the next job in a very perverse manner,

(37:19):
which I shall tell you. The General Feros was based
in those days up in Birmingham and we were having
a sales convention in London, and I remember this marketing director,
the guy that had hired me, said, look, I'm getting
fed up with the elitism that exists between the salesforce

(37:39):
and the marketing group. We're all in this together and
we're going to go. We're having this convention in London,
and I want each of you to take out a
group of salesmen. Remember I thought, isn't that a bit elitist? Right?
But I didn't say anything, so listen. So I got
my little group of salesman through a four guys, you know,

(38:00):
we're all in suits, and I take them to a
restaurant in Barkley Square. Now I could have walked back
to the hotel we were staying at ten different ways, okay,
but for some reason I chose to walk back through
South Molton Street and which is just off Oxford Streep,
and we walked out there. S anyways, it's a recording

(38:22):
studio there that i'd recorded him, and I said to
this group of salesman, any of you guys ever been
in a recording studio? And the unsurprising answer was no.
So I said, I just ring the bell, says everybody
I know now Barry in mind, it's a good three
years since I had recorded anything, So I ring the bell.

(38:43):
There's this Swedish engineering there that I would work with
called dag Fiona and he was a designer of desks,
is quite well known in London at the time. So
he said, oh, well, come on up, you know, coming up.
You know, I'm just finished off and mixed with this
Swedish band. So this was what in when did I do? That?

(39:04):
Must have been sixty eight, yes, sixty eight. So I
got up there and there's this Swedish group. He's just
in the mixing stage and the manager is there and
Dad introduces me to the manager from what I was,
and the managinon looks at me in a suit with
these three from Bosos, is what what are you doing?
What are you doing like that? So I told him.

(39:26):
He said, well, you know, I want to start a
record label when you join me. I said okay. Because
he was a very wealthy Swedish guy, knew who he was.
His name was orker Erhard Larson and he had a
record company called Olga Records, which was doing incredibly well
in the four markets of Scandinavia and the group he

(39:48):
was in there finish out the recording with was called
the Hep Stars, which were massive in those markets. I
mean they had two sets of equipment and they would
play two places in the day outdoor vessels in the
very short summer of but they were really big. I

(40:08):
mean they were selling more records in the Beatles in
those days. So I agree to join this guy and
we've start selling Olgor, start trying to market Olga Records
in England, and I made a distribution deal with the
M I. But it was impossible. I mean, they had
some great stuff, but it was just impossible to get

(40:28):
it off the ground. But you know, by then, you know,
they noticed me a bit at E M I and
who were distributors of so many American labels at that
point before the days when the American labels had their
own companies. So they introduced me to MGM. So I
switched from Olga Records to MGM at a great moment

(40:51):
because that was when Stanley Kubrick was finishing up two one,
and I actually worked with him on setting up the marketing,
you know, for two thousand and one, and he was
absolutely terrific. I mean, my god, what a detail oriented
chap he turned out to be. But you know, that
was a good moment for me there, and that lasted

(41:15):
about six months, and then I started to get these
calls from this guy called Frank Fenter, and you know,
he's a South African but he's sort of really very
hip kind of guy. And he said, man, you know,
I'm leaving Atlantic Records to go and join the phil Walden.
We're going to start a record label. We've got this band,

(41:35):
the Almond Brothers, but they need someone here and heard
a lot about you, and you know, my my boss
wants to talk to you. I said, well, okay, But
by then I kind of got fed up with the
music business and I've taken an interview with McCann ericson
right the advertising, and I got the job as a

(41:56):
count director for two products, Danish bacon they still make
good bacon, mind you, and Lure Pack butter, which is
also Danish. They were there were sort of premium brand
leaders and I was going to be the account director
for those two brands. Big job, and it was well
paid for its time too. It was I was going

(42:18):
to get three and a half thousand pounds a year
and a company car. To put into perspective, my father,
who was still at Line's d at this time, was
an area sales manager with four or five guys working
for him, and he was making two and a half
thousand pounds a year, so it was big deal. I'm
account executive at a big agency is a big deal

(42:39):
to this day. So I agree to take the job.
And then I started getting these course from Frank Fender
and then from this guy form with an unpronounceable name
that sounded something like no Whosi who Ertie Gertney. So
it turns out to be a course nessa we heard
again And I'll never forget that meeting. You know, I
had to show up in my suitain time. And it's

(43:01):
at Clarridge's Hotel in London, and he's got a nice
suite in there, and he's very total gentleman, right, I
don't The Urticans were fabulous people, but we've talked more
about that in a moment. But here there he is
in there's magnificent suite, and he tells me that he's

(43:21):
heard a lot about me and that he knows I
was a musician. By the way, Dusty has been signed
to Atlantic in the interim. So he says, and we
know you played for Dusty and we're like, you know.
We talked a bit and he offered me the job
that this guy was just vacating. I said, I don't
think so he said why. I said, well, I'm nothing
like that guy. I'm a marketing guy. It's what I do,

(43:43):
it's what we want. We want marketing. I said, you know,
I've taken a job. You know. He says, what. I
tell him what it is and he said. He looked
at me in astonishment. He said, you mean you're going
to turn down Atlantic records to work for a fucking
he can come. I said, it's not quite like that,
but you know, yes, I'm turning it down. He said,

(44:05):
what they paying you? We've got a little bit of
bright heat going on here. I said, they're paying me
three and a half thousand pounds and a company car.
He said, I'm going to do something I've never done before.
I'll double that. No company car, and don't you dare
ask me for a race for two years? I mean,
what can you do? That's how I started. I never

(44:28):
knew Armored at that time. It was just ness, weary
and me. Next week by then was head of international
and the jazz department was what he was reponsible for.
So I joined Atlantic in uh k In is one
of the first Zeppelin album comes out. The first had
been had just been released when I joined, and they

(44:49):
were working on the second one. So that was when
I came in, and you know, I thought, oh good,
this is a great opportunity for me to show what
I can do. And you know, it was he when
with the design process of the cover and you know,
and so forth, and Jerry Greenberg, who is the president
of Atlantic then and gone to the band and got

(45:09):
them to put out a whole lot of Loves edited
version as a single. So I think that's great, this
is a huge I'll schedule the single, which I do.
I don't think I've actually met Peter Grant at that
point either way, but I'm working on the record. I
think we may have spoken on the phone, but that
was it. So I put the single out, okay, and

(45:32):
I get this call from Peter Grant manager Yeah, Phil Carson.
It starts like that. He was a very heavy dude.
I want you to come to my office immediately. Ps
I coached this office and he says, you know, we
don't want to single out. By then I'd chipped the

(45:53):
damn thing. By the way, three and a half thousand
of them. He said, you've got to get him back.
I said, I'm not going to get him back. This
is it. You know, I don't care. Jimmy Page doesn't
care get him back. He ses, you want to phone
your boss and ask him. So I called, aren't explained
to her? Do what he tells you? So so I

(46:15):
get these singles like so we were a bit daggers
drawn Peter Grant right at the beginning. And by the way,
I wish that when I got them back, I kept them,
because you know what they're changing hands for it's like
hundreds of dollars, but at seven inch anyway, I didn't
keep them. I destroyed them. So that was how my

(46:36):
first meeting with Peter. But we actually got to be
very friendly. And it turns out he lived very close
to where I was at school, and you know, we
just we we built a rapport. And that was he
that intelligent or was the band of that good? Or
was he just a boy? No? No, actually it's all
of those, yet so much more highly intelligent man could

(47:01):
be a major Bully. The band was that good, and
his mission in life was to let Jimmy Page be
the creative genius that he is keep everybody else away
from his band. And that's the way they went about it,
because by the time I joined, the first own that
already done pretty well in America, so that they were

(47:24):
really expecting this the second record to come and it
was it was going to be big, so that they're
actually at that point where with Frank Barcelona, the agent,
Premier Town and Premier Town, and that didn't last long
because the band was so big they didn't need anybody else.
And Peter saw what he had. He knew what the mystery,

(47:45):
how he could create mystery by keeping people away. But
by that time I got pretty friendly with them, you know,
so I was I was on the road with them
most of the time, and Peter quickly realized he had
some bozo that he didn't have to pay that with
all the work, you know. So that's how our relationship
sort of flourished for the first few years there, and

(48:07):
it was just a magic thing to be part of.
And until the drugs kicked in, it was an amazing ride.
I mean, being that close to Led Zeppelin was massive
for me because I was the conduit to Atlantic. From
from Atlantic to led Zeppelin, they wouldn't talk to anybody
else except Armett, So it was you know, I was

(48:28):
the man you know at that point. Then what about
the stores coming seventy one? Well, Armett signed the Stones
and yeah, it was at seventy one. I guess it
must have been about Yeah, yeah, I was by then
I was working more for Armett than necessary. Uh, you
don't understand that the the the corporate culture of Atlantic,

(48:54):
It was really no corporate culture. It was Jerry Wexler
who was in the student and most of the time
still clinging to the last vestiges of R and B.
And there was Nessui, who by that time was setting
up worldwide distribution, which I helped him with. I was
actually on the board of most of the companies at

(49:14):
the beginning, and Ahmett, who was signing everything English that
could move. So I was in the right place at
the right time, which leads me back to what I
was telling you earlier about the luck factor of being
an I n R. All these English bands wanted to
be where a wreath had been, or was an otis

(49:37):
had been, and Benny King had been and Ray Charles
had been. They wanted to be on Atlantic Records. So
the guy running Atlantic Records and have to look very hard.
People were coming to me. So it was a very
good people Atltic was not famous for rich dealsite it
was absolutely the opposite. But we broke English acts in America.

(49:58):
That's why they wanted to be there. So armed had
made a deal with with with with Robert Steward. And
also we were distributed then by Polydor, and so many
of these the Stigwood artists were all on Polydor. So
that's how that my office within Polydor at that time,

(50:20):
and a lot of stuff was coming along. Armored had
signed Yes by the time I joined the company, and
we I thought Yes was a great brand, a great band, uh.
And they recorded the first album yet we simply called Yes,
right right, but that I think it's called Yes, and

(50:41):
it has an incredible version of every little thing it does.
That's right, yeah, it does. So they had a couple
of cover versions on that album. Then they did Time
and a Word, which was a total stiff in America. Well,
they both were so no records. My dad has turned
me on to the first one is that if I
would tell everybody about it. Yeah, how funny. Well it
still didn't, and neither did Time and a Word. But

(51:06):
by then I was really working this band because I
thought they were terrific, and we've sold quite a quantity
of records within Europe. We had like a top five
in Belgium, which meant maybe four thousand records. I mean,
nothing to write home about. But like you said, the
Atlantic deals were not rich deals anyway. So Atlantic dropped
Yes after Time and a Word okay, and the drop

(51:28):
notice went out and I called up Nessary as it man,
we can't let this group go, you know, and he
supported me, so I resigned. Yes, it's to start with
the Yes album. That was what was a deal the
same or words, No, it was pretty much the same.
I mean, you know, they were desperate, they didn't want

(51:49):
to get dropped. So when I called up and said, look,
we're rescinding that the drop notice it was, it went
down quite well. So we've made another Atlantic record style
deal for VS. And the first record was was the
Yes album at that point Brian Lane, yeah, he was

(52:10):
not the manager before then. No, the manager before there
was a guy called Roy Flynn who was the general
manager of the industry, hang out the speak Easy and
then what had Brian Lane done before? Um? Brian Lane
before that was not known as Brian Lene was known
as his real name is Harvey Freed, and Harvey Free

(52:32):
was a known how can I put this delicately alterer
of the charts? All right? So he people knew he
could work a little magic by doing that, and he
came along and I must say it was his idea
to call it the Yes album, and really thought, what
are people going to ask for? Right? So yes, let's

(52:53):
call it that. So so we did. Um and Brian
I came to know and love and hate Grin at
the same time. I've always said he's a man that
would could tell you a lie when the truth would
be a positive advantage, right right, I know a couple
of people. But nonetheless he did a good job, you know,

(53:16):
and the man was incredible, And I used everything I
knew to break them in America because the Americans didn't
give a funk by this time. Okay, was Peter Banks?
How did how did he leave the band? They fired
him after the time and a word album and got

(53:36):
Steve Howin they fired him and we made another record
with him called Flash, which was good, and there was
Badger too. Badger was Tony Cabe Tony Cabe and replaced
by Rick Wakeman, not on the Yes album. Right came later.
How did he get booted? Well? Tonyk is a great

(53:57):
Hammond B three player, a really great Hammond be through that.
Ritt Wolves or Wakeman has so much dimension. You know
who you're going to get. See. It's an interesting thing
here Atlantic records all of us that were that era,
particularly with Jerry Greenberg, who I cannot say enough about. Okay,

(54:19):
Jerry Greenberg was a fantastic leader of people. He was
very young, he was like thirty two when he got
the job running Atlantic, but he knew promotion. He actually
understood what a hit was, how to get it, how
to make it work as and a musician as well.
By the way, he was a drummer. Well it's not
really a musicians. He was a drummer. But so but

(54:42):
the drummer is always a business guy. Yeah, that's sometimes
it's true. That's the last thing a drummer says to
his band before he leaves his Hey, guys, I've got
a couple of songs. But that's another story. So he
was the He was a great leader, so on I
really really like working with and you know, I'm so
sorry that when he decided not to do that job anymore.

(55:05):
And he and I had such a partnership of record
of recordings. So I digress. We're talking, okay, So when
you're at Yes, are you an A and R guy
who signs the ban Are you a marketing guy or
you the guy goes in the studio and gives recommendations.
Initially I was the marketing guy, and you know, we

(55:25):
don't forget that. Ere when I first joined in sixty nine,
we didn't have w e A internactionally, we were distributed
through Metronome in in Scandinavia, PolyGram in England and Germany,
different labels all over Europe. So my job was just
cultivating those independent companies and make sure they worked on

(55:47):
Atlantic records. So yes, it was marketing, but I was
also there to spot English talent that we could sign
just for America, because the deals would be even cheaper
if we didn't do it for the world, because you
only pay half as for the rest of the world.
So that's what my job was. And as a musician,
of course, you know, I was able to go into
a studio and make recommendations. So when I say it

(56:09):
was very much involved in the Yes album. In fact,
the engineer that I introduced him to Eddie Offord, because
Eddie was a tape op at that recording studio that
I told you about the practical advision and one of
the jobs I had before I joined the Atlantic. It

(56:31):
was while I was still making records. This was before
I tried General Foods. Actually was making cover versions for
wal Wass of hit albums. And I had this tiny
budget and I had to make an album in a night,
a whole album. So I would book Eddie with the tapeop,
but he was also a budgeting engineer, So I book

(56:54):
advision studios from eight to ten for two hours and
then eleven to one for two hours, okay, knowing that
nobody's going to be there, Okay, So we were just
I bought a reel of eight track. Eight track had
just come out by then, and we had my own
eight track tape. We put it on and we would

(57:14):
make an album in a night. We did that, then
he would mix it in a night too. Everything done
finished in a night between eight o'clock and six am
in the morning when the cleaners came in, and I
had problem musicians, by the way, the top session players
to get the tracks done and then we just well

(57:34):
that's how mud Lang started to doing cover record. I
think it is South America, South Africa. So okay, So
when you so anyway, I knew. That's how I told
you you Eddie, and I introduced Eddie to the band
and he became the producer for years. Okay, So what
were you involved in in that era Atlantic that was

(57:55):
not successful that you thought was going to go Well,
I'm going to tell you about, but can we tell
you about a couple of the sex success I was
going to go there, I figured, Okay, a couple of
success right, Okay, well I suppose yet how I broke
yes in America was because I was the guy that
was taking Jimmy Page or Robert Plant, Scott Mooney you
know for the hour long in New York City. Yeah,

(58:18):
and then up in Boston w b C N with
Edipus up there. So these guys became my friends. So
I would be able to get new stuff with these guys.
So they gave yes the time of day, and that's
how that really started. Breaking because Atlantic was not interested.
I've gone against the A and R. They dropped them,

(58:38):
so now they're going forced to work them again. I
mean Jerry Greenberg was extremely supportive, but the rest of
them were not so supportive. But so you heard round
About as a hit. I thought round About it was
a great song. Okay. So then when they start to
go off the rails, they do Tales from Topic, Graphic Oceans,
they do the three that's two albums, then they do

(58:58):
a three album live set. Were you supported of that?
Were you telling them, well, this is too much? Well,
you know, it's progressive music. You know in England is
a hot? Was the hot the birthplace really a progress music?
I kind of like what they were doing. And you
talk about that three albums, that it was the biggest
album in the history of our German record company, that
German's love of three albums set for some reason. So

(59:21):
you know, so there was no trying to talk them down.
Will some more as a single or something like that.
Not really obviously we wanted singles, but it wasn't to be.
And of course eventually you know, the yes thing fell
apart as well. It just okay, so how w when
did you leave Atlantic Records. I left at the end
of Okay, so let's go back. Okay. You had success

(59:44):
with Yes, and then we were going to see another one.
I signed Virgin Records to Atlantic. Wow, that's a big deal. Yeah,
it was. My then wife was running a TV show
called The Old Gray Whistle Test, which is a legendar,
legendary show, and her and the producer decided that they

(01:00:04):
were going to put a piece of music on that
someone had brought into them that day. And those days,
this is really very early on. It's before videos. So
this show had a DJ, had a live band in
the studio and they would play new music. Where they
put old film to new music was quite clever. Clever
the way they did that. And then there's the producers

(01:00:27):
worked out that any piece of film if fits any
piece of music, eventually it was seen. So they had
this old a lot of old film they used. This
particularly one was an old skiing thing, you know. And
you know, I was a bad boy in those days,
you know, And I knew that Tuesday nights when the
show was live, that was my date night because I

(01:00:48):
know where I'm going to get caught. You girlfriend was
in the studio, so She called me one Tuesday afternoon
when i'm, you know, getting ready to go out, and
she says, you have to come into the show tonight.
You know, there's someone you really got to meet. He's
bought in this piece of music and you've got to hear.
And I didn't know what it was, and side going

(01:01:09):
there and I'm astonished by this piece of music. And
the guys she wanted me to meet was Richard Branson.
So I made a deal with Richard on the spot.
I signed Virgin Records for a hundred and twenty five dollars,
you know, and they were with us for ten years,
with Atlantic for ten years and too. And now this
is the thing about this guy, Jerry Greenberg, who I

(01:01:29):
know you've interviewed. So I said to him, look, I've signed.
I know this is unusual. I've signed this album which
is totally instrumental. He said, We've got no chance with
that in America. I said, look, it's groundbreaking, trust me.
So he gets to work. He says, you're right, it
is fantastic. It sounds like a movie soundtrack. So I said,

(01:01:51):
well that's a good idea. You know. He goes to
Warner Brothers. The Exhortist had just been made, and the
Exhortist soundtrack was cut, done with an orchestra as at
great cost. He plays this or somehow someone who gets
it to what's in a really freaking freaking and he says,
that's going to be my soundtrack. That is how Tubular

(01:02:12):
Bells broke totally down to Jerry Greenberg, right, And I
think Atlantic, so like twenty million, there was something unbelievable
figure out it was really incredible. Okay, And you're going
to talk about a couple of missus, you have to

(01:02:32):
go there yet, Okay, Well, Paul Kosos band was totally start.
I suppose my biggest miss ever was the reconstituted Small
Faces with Stevie Marritt, you know, Ian mccleagan, Steve Marriott,
Kenny Jones and Rick Wills on base and I thought

(01:02:54):
we made a pretty good record. I had to buy
them out of A and M and it just went
absolutely where nowhere. So that was okay. So how does
it end with Atlantic? Um? It ended fives with the
last year I was involved in any way with the
mainstream Atlantic. Uh. Mick Jones really a foreigner far and

(01:03:19):
up and was getting an Award at a TV show
called The Tube, which it took place in a town
called Newcastle, New New Newcastle to London is a bit
like Pittsburgh is to New York. You don't want to
go there. But the TV show was being done from
from New York, from from newcasts Newcastle. So Mix says

(01:03:42):
to me, look, I'll go. You know, you've got to
come with me. I said, okay, all right, uh, and
we've got to get a private plane. Well what the funk?
I mean, little did he know they were gonna I
was gonna recharge the front of the royalty account anyway,
So we got a little plane and we go up
to to the Tube and you know what it's like

(01:04:04):
with TV shows, there's a hell of a lot of
hanging about. This particular one was a live show, but
they would have a live run through with one audience
and then then kick the audience out and kind of
like I said, l still does it today. That's what
they do. So this is the same sort of thing.
So I'm just wasting time. You know, I've found an office.

(01:04:24):
There was no one in it, so I'm start going
on the phone and doing work, you know, calling America.
This not the other. Then I hear an American voice
that I kind of recognize doing exactly the same thing
in another vacant office. Turns out to be a chack
on Mark Puma. Mark Human was a runner for led Zeppelins,
and I've worked with him a lot in the concerts
Eastern concert West days. So I said, what you're doing?

(01:04:47):
I said, well, I've got this band and you know
we're doing the show tonight. Said what they called it's
a Twisted Sister. Now I've never heard of Twisted Sister.
But I see them, this group of you know guys
would make up, you know, they're all seven ft tall
walking around the place. And he says, yeah, well, you know,
we've really want to get signed in England. I made

(01:05:08):
a deal with a with a independent label, but I've
got to do something. And we we we spent out
to be honest, we spent our last money getting over
here to see if we can get signed. So I said,
will I take a look at him? Meanwhile, I mixed
on a break. I said, oh, I've just met Mark Humor,
you know, and he has got this group called Twisted System.

(01:05:29):
Mixed sense to me, twist his sister. They're all over
the radio in New York. Little did I know, and
nor did he that on the radio because J J.
French the guitar the guitar player had inveigled away to
buy time cheaply on w n W. And although we
were playing with a you know that the hook of

(01:05:50):
one of their songs. So Mick thought this was an airplayer,
which it actually wasn't. So I thought, that's interesting. So
I'll go down there and I'll watch them and the
run through. I mean, the songs are pretty good. I
mean they're not pushing the barriers of rock and roll
any further forward, you know, but there's they had something.
And then in the show when it went like my god,

(01:06:11):
they were good. They were really good. So the Marxist, look,
we're doing the Marquee on Thursday shows on Tuesday. Okay, Mark,
he was really an opinion making place in London, helped
hell about five hundred people something like that. So he said,
would you come down and see the band? I said, sure.
I get to the market. It is packed. And I

(01:06:33):
missed a rock and roll in London, right. I was
signed these bands and I thought I knew everything you
still do to that. So anyway, they killed the audience
because on the live TV show, de Snyder was restrained,
not so in the Marquis. My god. They were a
great live band, and they looked brutal up there, you know, brutal.

(01:06:56):
So at the end of it, Mark, Mark, who necessarily,
what do you I said, Okay, I'll sign them, and
he looked at me in astonishment. I said, what to Atlantic,
Well that's where I work. Sure, He said, you've got
to come back and meet that. I said, I do
not want to meet the band. I will sign the band. Okay.
I'm going to give you enough to make the record,

(01:07:16):
no advance beyond that, okay. In those says it was
a bit more expensive to make it records than it
is of course perversely, but you know, I'll do that.
It's don't look for a big deal, but I will
sign the band. So eventually he persuades me to come
and meet them. But of course they're nothing like that.
Dee Snyder is. You know, he's a great guy, one

(01:07:38):
of my best friends to this day. So you know,
we get talking and I make the deal, and my deal.
I didn't call up Jimmy Page, who owned the Soul Studios,
which had two bedrooms in it. So I said, you,
I've signed this band. I wanted you to give me
a decent rate, saying okay, sure, and I want to
use your engineer, Stewart Apps. So he made me a

(01:07:59):
very reasonable deal. But still, you know, it's a residential studio,
you know. And the deal I made for these guys
was sixty dollars that included flying them over to England
and back the studio time, everything sixty. So I make
the deal, okay. The next Tuesday is the lawyers lunch
day at Atlantic Records. The lawyers lunch days, I think

(01:08:22):
they still have it, and is about fourteen of the
business side of Atlantic in their plus whoever is the
president or chairman at it would occasionally join it. It's
where they go over the business things of the of
the time. So if I've got anything, if I wasn't there,

(01:08:42):
I would call in, you know. So I got in
the room. It's one of the big conference rooms with
the you know, little speaker in the middle of you
visualize it, and fourteen lawyers and business affairs people sitting
around there in this particular day, Doug Morris chairing it,
you know. So he's um, he said, oh, Phil, what
what do you guys? So what, I've signed a band.

(01:09:04):
It's a great, great good. Yeah, you're You're always good
at that, you know. So I said, yeah, yeah, but
this is an American banker, American band. You signed an
American banding And I said, yeah, they did this TV show,
they destroyed the place, and you know, I've made a
very reasonable deal. He said, what are they called? I said,
twisted sister. He said, twisted fucking sister. I've turned that

(01:09:28):
band down five times. There's a kid in here. Jason
Flom thinks they're like I've told him he's fired. If
ever he mentioned them again. So I don't, Doug, I
really don't know about that. But you know I've signed
them and that's it. Like I did tell you, I
was mouth Almighty and Night earlier on and this was

(01:09:49):
no exception. And I remember him saying to me, on
your own head. Then this is really early days for
Doug nineteen eighty three, so, and he had not signed
anything right that point. So I said, oh, yeah, Doug,
on my own head, is it? You know, like yes,
Emerson Lake and Palmer, A C, d C. On my

(01:10:10):
own head, like that is it? And you could hear
the silence echoing over three thousand miles of telephone lines.
And that was the beginning of the end from my
relationship with Doug Morris. So I signed Twist his sister.
I called up Jason Flom, who reminded me of something.
He said, you signed my band. I said, yeah, Doug

(01:10:34):
told me that, you know, he was going to fire
you if if you mentioned them again. What do you
mean your band? He said, don't you remember one day
you were you were in the office and I gave
you a package. I said, yeah, I vaguely remember that.
And I did remember it, because you know what I do.
I used to get the eight o'clock flight in the
evening back to England, and he had given me this package,

(01:10:58):
as he so rightly said. And I'm sitting in my
first class seat, you know, sipping my first class champagne
and about to enjoy my first class caveat, and I
think I better listen to the little Jason's stuff, you
know in those days that I think Walkerman had just
come out at about that time. So I opened this
package he gave me, and the first thing I pull

(01:11:20):
out is like a a a cassette. Then I pull
out a picture of this, this band, this before I
had seen in women's clothing, you know. And then the
next sample is this stenographer's pad, about eight pages of
closely written notes by Jason for about this band. And

(01:11:42):
I took one look at the picture and one look
at the memo, and I look at my champagne and
caviare and I threw the whole lot in an airline
trash back right, so I didn't even know it was.
But I will give him this. You know, he has
claimed he signed to his his sister. He did not,
but without any shadow of doubt, he broke twist his

(01:12:02):
sister because he made it a mission. He was going
around putting up hosters himself everywhere. And you know that
nobody cared except Jason Flam about this band, and he
did it on his own. And we got that first
album up to two hundred thousand or whatever it was,
which is enough to make the next album grudging Lee,

(01:12:24):
you know, from digging and so forth. And that was
a big, big moment really, because the second album did
have songs on it and Doug got behind it. But
just remembering someone some little thing after I had made
got them in the studio Uh. We were making the
record and I realized there was a song on there
that could be a hit single. So I said, to

(01:12:46):
look what we're gonna do. We track everything, then we're
going to concentrate on I Am, I'm me. We're going
to finish it up, mix it, get it done before
we address any overdubs, mixes of anything else, and some
Jimmy's studio. Six weeks we do this and it sounds great.
So then I got them a gig at the Marquis

(01:13:07):
because people wanted to have the band back. So I said,
we're going to do two nights of the Marquee. We're
going to record it live. Okay, the B side of
a twelve inch version of single will be twenty minutes
of Twitter's Sister Life. So the result of all this
is I went a little over budget to deal with
sixty THO. I think I came in at seventy two

(01:13:28):
thousand on us and I called up Sheldon Vogel, who
was the financial actually vice chairman of Atlantic, who was,
you know, really enamored by Doug Morrison those days, not
so much later, but in those days, and he we
have the hell of a row, he said, he said,
I've just got this invoice here from Soul Studios and

(01:13:52):
we're not going to pay it. I said, what do
you mean you're not going to pay it? He said, well,
you're twelve thousand over budget. I've paid rest of it.
I'm not paying the overage. I said, well, you do
realize this is Jimmy Page's studio. Dude, I don't care
whose studio it is. I'm not paying it. So I said,
we'll just put me through to arm it. Now you've

(01:14:13):
got to realize I was kind of the golden boy.
It was like a lot of people thought I was
arm it's illegitimate, but I wasn't as far as I know.
So you know, we've he said, that would be ridiculous.
Just you know, pay it yourself and I'll reimburse. So
I took care of it, and that was a bit
of a rough moment for me at the company I

(01:14:34):
worked for, but by then I didn't care, because you know,
I was fireproof, still the only person Led Zeppelin would
speak to, and this huge track record of artists that
I've signed, so it didn't really bother me at all.
So the Twisted Sister Record came out to great business
of course, and I thought, well, you know, I think

(01:14:59):
I want to make a break. And at that point
both Jumy Page and Robert Plant had asked me to
manage them, so did a number of other artists. So
I thought, well, how can I kind of use this
to my advantage? So I called up. I said to Atlantic, Look,

(01:15:19):
the need for an office in London is diminished, you
know lately, because all the big English bands you know,
on on the way out whatever. You know. I'd like
to have my own record label. So Doug thought this
was a great idea because then I'm outside the mainstream
of Atlantic, so there's no threat of any kind. So

(01:15:44):
I will never forget the meeting that we had when
we did this. I said, look, I just wanted like
a reasonable deal. But I was making quite a lot
of money back in those days. But I want a
reasonable deal. I want some kind of salary. Doesn't have
to be what you're paying now, but I just want,
you know, to any the office paid for, you know,
And I want to set up a record label. But

(01:16:07):
I also, you know, want to manage any artist that's
on Atlantic. I know I've already got okay, So Doug
couldn't wait to make the damn deal. He really couldn't.
And Steve Weiss was my attorney in those days, legendary
guy as you know, led Zeppelin, Vanilla Fudge, Dustry Springfield.
Even so, he's there and we're getting everything we want.

(01:16:30):
And I could see that this steam coming out of
Sheldon Vocals is because I make a three year deal,
which still was quite a lot of money, even though
I took a lower salary. So it's Steve is packing
up his stuff, you know that. And I said, Steve,
you've forgotten something, you know? He said, quick as a flash,

(01:16:50):
he said, oh yeah, why don't you tell them? Okay?
I said, yeah, Well, I've been here quite a length
of time. I had some big success with you guys.
I think a terminal bonus is in order. And Sheldon
looks at me incredulously. He's one of my closest friends now,
by the way, I mean, I've got on prairie well
with him. But he looked at me incredulously. A terminal bonus,

(01:17:13):
I mean, you've got everything you've asked for. What do
you want? And I said half a million dollars he's
got his legal batty threw it on the floor. I
didn't get half a billion dollars, but I did get
a terminal bonus and how much was it? But it
wasn't half a billion dollars to leave me, but I
got something. So I started this record label, and I

(01:17:34):
knew that it was not going to be easy, so
I wasn't that active about signing anything. But by then
all the English bands that I had anything to do
with and something that I had nothing to do with,
wanted to be with me. So I opened a management
company with Jimmy Page Robert Plant, both with their own

(01:17:55):
solo albums, Bad Company, which I was in partnership with
Bud breaker Um who was motorhead. Uh. That's how that
company started. So I had a big deal going from
the beginning. And then of course I've formed the firm
between Jimmy and Paul Rodgers. So I had a really
very successful few years there. Look, I did it then

(01:18:18):
with that joint venture sort of slieve. After the third year,
they didn't want to play anymore. By the way, the
office rent that they were playing was to building I
owned in London, so it was it was quite a
good moment for me. But by then I've become you know,
quite the management side. Didn't like the management as opposed
to working for the label. You know. Look, we talked

(01:18:40):
about Jerry Greenberg before and what a great guy he was,
and I under him. I think I could have been
there forever. I really do. We had a great rapport,
but he did and he wanted me to move to London. Sorry,
a big one. Leavelandon moved to New York to be
executive vice president and a insistant to the president. So um,

(01:19:04):
I didn't go, you know, and in retrospect, I think
he was sort of knew what he wanted to go
and his sort of grooming me to be the next president,
which logically I would have been at that point. So
I just wonder, you know, where Doug would have gone
had I have made that move. I mean, he's been
an enormously successful force in our business. But I did

(01:19:25):
give him his first hit single, and perhaps by not
going to America, I did him a big favor. Who
knows where life could have gone, you know. Okay, so
today you're involved with foreigner I am and anything else?
Are you just a foreigner? I've been trying to retire
seventy five, you know, I'm trying to give it up,
but Foreigners was a great love of mine, even back

(01:19:47):
when Jerry Greenberg and John Klodna signed them, back in
the early days. I knew Mick as a musician by
the way, back in that era I told you about,
so I knew who he was, and he she is
a great guitar player who came from the same area
as Jimmy Page and Eric Clapton and Jeff Beck. Uh.

(01:20:09):
He's just a brilliant player. And that he didn't form
one of those English bands because a French singer came
over to record, who used to have Jimmy Page, you know,
is his guitar player. He was trying to find a
guitarist to go back with him to Paris, and eventually

(01:20:31):
Mick Jones went to Paris Is with Johnny. For years,
most Americans have not heard of Johnny Halliday just recently died.
Yes he did. But he was to France what Elvis
was to America. I mean, if Elvis had lived, he
would be no bigger in America than Johnny Halliday was
in France when he died recently. I mean the government

(01:20:53):
closed down the Chasin Lise to do a procession for
Johnny Halliday. I mean, he was enormous. Mick wrote a
number of his hits and that was that was just
quite a big deal for Mick Jones. Believe me. You know,
I started, he started Foreigner. He started Foreigner with the
mixed started Foreigner. He came back to England, It's started

(01:21:17):
working with Gary Wright in Wonder Wheel and a couple
of other projects. They moved to New York and he
had this bundle of songs and he took them to
Bud Praeger, who was managing Mountain, which was one of
the bands that Mick was in. He said, oh, I've
got these songs and Bud Praeger said, well, they're pretty
damn good. You know, let's den with them. And I

(01:21:38):
must say that not maybe people know this, but Bud
Praeger he invested everything he had in Foreigner, everything including
his pension plan, you know. And first of all they
were turned down by everybody, everybody including Atlantic. But then
you know, he persevered with Atlantic and eventually had Jim Delahatton,

(01:21:58):
Jerry Greenberg, Jim down up was come down. I don't
think Jim Della hadn't liked them at all, but Jerry
saw something in them, and the rest is history. The
funny thing is I vividly remember hearing that song on
the radio the first time, and I literally know people
talk about this, but I literally drove to the records. Yes,
I just had to be able to play it at

(01:22:19):
it for that. I read what you in you said,
you know that was but you're right, a lot of
people did that. But there's a funny thing about Foreigner
that you know, it's worked two hour advantage in later years.
But they were a bit of a faceless band. You know,
most people out there couldn't name anyone in Foreigner to

(01:22:40):
this day. So what had happened in two thousand and four?
I called mack up out of the blue, you know,
I said, what what you're doing? I'm seeing anything that
you're doing that. He said, well, you know, I've kind
of given up, you know, Mick. Sorry. Lou had this
illness which prevented him from delivering Blue gram and and

(01:23:04):
and Mick had his own issues back in those days
with alcohol and so forth, and he'd might then become sober,
but he was still very nervous about doing anything. But
this was all in one phone call. You know. You know, man,
those songs that they're just too good to be sitting there.
He says, I think, you know, let's get a band together.

(01:23:26):
So on the phone, I can hear him perking his ears.
We had a good relationship. He knows he knew what
I was capable of. I said, he said, what do
you think then? Who will be in it? Well? I
was managing Jason Bonham, who have finished since since he
was a child. And I said, we'll start We'll have
Jason on drums. Well, the funny thing is Jason's was

(01:23:47):
on Jerry Greenberg's label. Yeah, I signed him to it.
I never knew that connection. So okay, so okay, we'll
start with Jason Bonham. Yes, so I said, And I
tell you who else I would like to get in.
There's a guy I put into yes years a few
years ago. He wrote, owner of a lonely art. His
name is Trevor Rabin. He's a formidable musician, but he's

(01:24:08):
really doing started doing soundtracks now. But I think I
could get him, so I'll call up Trevor. He's very interested.
So we had this mix now feeling feeling it though.
We had a meeting at Trevor Raban studio. Jason, Trevor,
me and and we're ready to go. We're going to
find a singer. Jason said, well, what about my singer

(01:24:31):
Charles West. There was a singer of the Jason bonhom band,
so we said, well we try him. Why not? So
we start thinking about who else is going to be
in the band, and you know, they go. Mick goes
back to New York and you know I was living
here in those days. So Trevor calls me about four
days later, said I can't do this. So what do

(01:24:52):
you mean you're pivotable to what we're doing. Jerry Bruckheim
is just offered meet like a seven figure number to
do it a soundtrack. I think it might be that
one about asteroids or something, so I have to do it.
By the way, he's a consummate musician, you know you
can you can conduct a ninety piece orchestra with no trouble.

(01:25:14):
And incredible engineer too. He's just that guy. But we
weren't going to get him. So that was the end
of that. But by now Micky is interested. So you know,
I managed to get a gig with a radio station
up in Santa Barbara that they're doing a charity event.
So let's just take a gig for the hell of it.
So we get the old Foreigner sound guy, a guy

(01:25:36):
that would played keyboards for years with Foreigner, Tom Gimble,
who's the multi instrumentalist that we we have to this day.
And Jason and Oh, Jason called up Jeff Pilson. He
had been in that movie rock Star with Jeff Pilson,
so we've got Jeff Perlson on base. You know, it
was a formidable band actually even without Trevor Rabin, so

(01:25:59):
that he goes down great at this charity event, which
is in two thousand and four, and he said, well,
you know, let's let's have a go. Then let's try
and do this, so we did. Unfortunately, Charles West didn't
make it because he was so enthusiastic during rehearsals he
had completely blown his voice out by the time we
did the show. So we knew we had to get

(01:26:20):
somebody else, so we looked around. We audition everybody. I mean,
Jimmy Barnes from Australia, who is by the way, I
tried to get a band together with him in Jimmy
Page years ago, but Jimmy Barnes blew that one. But
I still think he's one of the greatest rock singers ever.
Remember Cold Chisel. Of course I saw them opening. No,

(01:26:42):
I saw Angel opening. I don't know if I saw
a Cold Chisel whatever. There were some great bands in Australia.
Well they worked. The thing about the Australian bands, whether
they said live, they had a totally down I remember
seeing in Excess at the Whiskey was just astounding. Yeah, okay,
so it doesn't come together. You're looking for a lead singer,

(01:27:03):
yep uh. And we were going to go out with
Charles West again because we couldn't find any we honestly,
we auditioned so many people by tape, some pretty name artists.
Jodan Turner was one. You know, nobody was really getting it.
So at least Charles West was a credible front girl.

(01:27:24):
So we said, okay, it authorized me to get a
few shows. I was begging to get twenty tho dollar shows.
And it was that difficult because the last tour was
terrible with Loue not being able to cut it properly.
So but I get a string of dates together and
we're getting ready to rehearse, and then Tom Gimbal brings

(01:27:45):
in this tape of this kid Kelly Hansen and we
one listened to the tape. He had had a karaoke
mix and he's singing that foreigners. So with about five
days to go before the first show, we gave Charles
West the news and Kelly Hansen took over and changed everything.
He's a fabulous front man. Have you seen the band?

(01:28:06):
I haven't seen it with Kelly, but you know what
about the videos. You're making some kind of documentary with
Lou and they were shot like a Nassau Coli CM
or somewhere Jones Beach their online probably three years ago.
Uh no, not with The last thing we've we've done
with Lou was and the rest of the old band

(01:28:27):
was a series of shows called double Vision where we
have the current band plays a whole set and then
uh there's a short interval and then the original band
comes out. We met Lou, Dennis Elliott, Rick Wells, Al
Greenwood and Ian McDonald and they play about five five

(01:28:48):
songs and then we all get together at the end
and do I want to know what that wasn't hot blooded?
The roof comes off the place to be Franks, Okay,
I got a question. Suddenly, I can't remember the name
of the movie. I love this movie and it begins
with an s or something in any event, it's an
English movie about getting a band back together, and the
final song is the flame Still burn. Mick wrote that

(01:29:13):
what the hell is it? The group is called Strange
fruit Um the name of the movie. I keep forgetting
the next. It's a damn good movie. So I love that.
But one of the great rockmis how did that song
get in the movie? The director new Mick and called
him out and said he look, I need the songs
I aren't making. I need, you know, a couple of songs,

(01:29:35):
and he wrote seven songs in a week, one of
which they were use in the movie Flame Still, which
was I think is even better than I Want to
Know What Love? Well, we've recorded it again. I've listened
to that version. Okay. So with this late day, you're
involved with Foreigner and you're trying to get out of
the business. Yeah, and I've still got Twisted Sister, of course,

(01:29:58):
and Dee Snyder, so twist Twisted Sister. People don't realize
to this day a massive in you, I thought, because
I hear from J. J. French all the time, I'm
very sure you do. And he said that they did
a final tour and he sold his guitars, but then
he talked about possibly doing it or is this just
D calling a Twisted Sister. No, they went out as

(01:30:21):
Twisted Sister from We put the band back together when
I was at a movie company for a while at
the shooting gallery and they we did a horror movie
with D. That's how I got into the movie business.
He called me up and said, look, we need to
You've got to come and work at this record only
I need you to help me get the soundtrack to go.
And we did the most amazing sound tract to Strange Land.

(01:30:44):
It was a Billboard hit was Kid Rocks. First record
was on the Snyder's soundtrack and eminem was on it. Uh,
we had everybody on this damn record as a big
hit soundtrack. Not such a big hit movie, but for
a cult movie that costs the little it did okay,
you know, And after the movie came up, we decided

(01:31:05):
we're try and cut a Twisted Sister song to go
on the soundtrack, which we did and that was pretty good,
so we decided to give it a go again. This
must have been two thousands something like that, and the
first thing we did was we got an offer from
what's what's that organization that brings entertainment to the troops

(01:31:26):
us USO to go to Korea. So we did. We
went to Career, did a thing for the troops, and
by then everybody wants to give it a go again,
and we took it up to a pretty good level.
We were headlining with Aussie and Metallica in a series
of events in Europe and the last time Foreigner did

(01:31:49):
bang your Head, which is no, not bang your head.
What's the big one in it's two really big ones
to our foreigner about Twisted Sister, big German rock Fest rep.
That's that's a I know where you're thinking, but that
is the sort of red light area in Hamburg. I know.

(01:32:10):
Now I'm getting to know your green That's a racing track,
that is that's a big one. Rock am Ring is
a big one. God whackens a massive hundred thousand people sharp.
So about three years ago, which was the last time
Twister Saister did play Wagon, they headlined and Far and

(01:32:30):
all one of the support bands, and wondered what universit
he was in when he was there. Actually we were
making a little documentary and so I'm asking Mick questions,
and I remember, if I started, He's sitting there knowing
he had just done a set, knowing that Twist his
sister are headlining. Okay, so that's my first question to

(01:32:54):
Mick Jones was how did Twist his sister change your life? No,
we can't continue stories for hours. Phil, You've been fantastic. Literally,
I just had to cut you off because we can't
go on for four hours. But your stories and your
career obviously is unbelievable. You were there when it all happened.
You were not only a fly on the wall, you
were a participant there. Anything specifically we didn't cover that

(01:33:17):
you need to cover just a little period I had
in the movie business, but I had a lot of
fun with I made a documentary about Sun Records. I
saw that was one on PBS. That was great. American Masters,
thank you, and we did. The soundtrack was pretty down
good too. I got everybody Paul once I had Paul McCartney.
I then called Bob Dylan, Paul McCartney and Bob Dylan,

(01:33:39):
and I called Tom Petty So and Jimmy Page and
Robert Plant played on it. It was a marvelous soundtrack,
so PBS wanted to do another one, so I did.
The house that I met built the story of Atlantic,
which was pretty good movie too, So I was quite
proud of that departure from music into the movie business.
I learned a lot. This little company, the Shooting Gallery

(01:34:02):
had already had a big hit when I joined. They
made they made sleem Blade and they specialized in low
budget art films. And I think I put the average
age up by about ten years when I joined these people.
But we had a bit of a run, but they
got carried away with it, and that's you know the
problem with movie business without a catalog. Karlcoe was the

(01:34:25):
most successful independent movie company of all time. They went bank.
It's like now there's st X today. They finally had
it hit. The thing I hate about the movie business
is everybody has a fucking opinion, okay, whereas the music. Well,
now that executives think they're bigger, but reality it comes
down to the music, and you know, and it's something

(01:34:45):
you feel or don't. Actually, it's an interesting thing there
that I always felt that nobody could catch up with
people like Jerry Greenberg and me because we had the
greatest possible training that you could ever have from Jerry Wexler,
Ahmed ed agin Un that's where Edigan and I remember,
and Tom Dowd engineer I remember. I think it was

(01:35:08):
either Tom Dowd or Jerry said to me one day
when I got the job and I'm in London, he said, look,
if you're going to sign a band, make sure there's
at least one virtuoso in the band you're signing, because
virtuoso musicians don't play with good musicians. They only play
with great musicians. And if you think about it, there's

(01:35:29):
four virtuosos and led Zeppelin right, there's two or three
in Yes, you know this is why, as you so
rightly put it, it's the music that counts. And that
training from those three guys always kept that in my
head about I have to remember something Doug Morris said
to me on that fateful day. He said, what about this?

(01:35:54):
Because I used to do little talks to our people
from time to time, and I'd always quote this virtuoso
musicians scenario. What about that that thing you pontificate about
when you're talking to people about how you've got to
have a virtuoso musician. Who the fuck is the virtuoso
musician and twisted sister. I said, d Snyder. He said,

(01:36:15):
what do you mean? I said, he has virtuoso charisma.
Absolutely absolutely, you know this. But you know that you
you bring up a lot of things. One do you
have to see the band live in order to be
convinced or conn b and make it not be greet
live a band. Bands have made it a great live
of course, but you know, for me, I had to

(01:36:36):
see a band live. And that's another thing that arm
It taught me, you know, is that you have to
go and see your bands play, even after you signed them,
because that's when you see your band meet their audience
and that will teach you how to promote and market
that band. Arm It was, and we could we should

(01:36:57):
do another program about armor It, because you know he
was my mentor and my friend for many years. I
did produce Cold co produced rather the final led Zeppelin
concert with which we did from Arment and I just
know all my dealings with arm but we're not Legion.
But I remember I wrote about the song Black Velvet

(01:37:18):
and I was saying, how you know it wasn't going
to Ley Goes. That track is a number one record,
which like you know, like six weeks later starting to
get traction. Yeah, and it went. Man, they knew this.
I mean I remember, way after I left Atlantic, and
you know, way after my Strange Land soundtrack had come
out with kid Rock on it. He said, I want

(01:37:39):
to go and see this guy kid Rock at the
Planet of Roxy and we we we went along and
we were sitting there. Kid Rock comes out and nothing
had happened yet for kid Rock. Actually, he turns to me,
he said, this guy is big as Elvis, and nothing
had happened, right, And he was pretty well right. He
erupted unbelievably in Kid Rocks. One of the few people.

(01:38:03):
He's made a lot of money, owns his own plane,
and he still can work. I mean, I hear from
him all the times. He's an interesting character because his
image is low class, but he grew up in an
upper middle class exactly. But the other thing I think
that you were with this is what people don't understand
about the music business today. It's mature. You were there, okay,

(01:38:27):
before the Beatles, which showed how much money and what
reach you could have, when there was still independent distribution,
when these people still own the label. Now nobody in
the music business has their own money in the game.
When you have your own money in the game. I
have a I have a promoter friend who promotes UH
clubs in Boston. He says, you've never really been a

(01:38:50):
promoter until you've gone to the A T. M. At
two in the morning to withdraw money to pay the band.
It's just really so I you know, been there. I
mean one of the things on luxury I have. As
you know, I was conscious when the Beatles hit. It's
like I'm watching some of the Woodstock documentaries and they're
talking about Vietnam War. People have no idea what it

(01:39:11):
was like to get your draft. Be freaked out. You're
gonna have to go to this we get your ash.
It was really crazy. Yeah, I imagine they ovously. That
was when Zepplin were breaking at the time of it
was raging. You know, that was an awful moment in
American history. You know for sure. I saw a Zeppelin
a couple of times. First time I saw him with
in Haven Uh Collins Yale Bowl, and they were not good.

(01:39:34):
This is just after the third album came out, and
you may or may not remember, in seventy five they
canceled the tour because of so they were gonna play
the Rolls Bowl and they didn't, But they came back
in seventies seven and played the Forum for a week.
They were unbelievable. They played all of the mean, my
favorite led Zeppelin song, it was ten years gone, they

(01:39:56):
played that, I mean really amazing. Yeah, that was I
was there for that. Yeah, it was quite I also believe,
you know, Robert says he doesn't want to do it.
I guess I have a little bit of a bad
reaction when these bands get back together solely for the money.
It's just, you know, all they I want to have
my kids know we were there, we saw your kids.

(01:40:18):
Don't get to seal. I mean, I rub it. He
has carved himself an entirely new path. Absolutely, and when
we did the event the O two, I mean he
had got himself up there. I mean, have you seen
any of the film of it? I mean, of course

(01:40:40):
was there foreigner supported that show. He was just astonishing.
I mean that that they were absolutely on it. Jason
Bonham set them on fire because he knew every nuance
that his father played and some he put in himself.
He knew every variation of every the song that led

(01:41:01):
Zeppelin had ever played, and he was the driving force
that night. Jimmy was playing great, Robert was phenomenal, and
John Paul Jans was Joon Paul Jans, who is a genius,
and that that night was just magic, absolute magic. So
just taking it leads up one for a minute, what's
your favorite leads up one album? I liked the second album.

(01:41:24):
That's really I Love Since I've been Loving You is
one of the greatest songs of all time for me
for a long time. It was the first album for
me in certainly days and confused. But you have to
understand when the second album came out in America, the
single had come out like a week or two before
instant hit a whole lot of long I bought that
album the day it came out and went to the

(01:41:45):
j a core of that. I played it that and
only that for a week straight, and then suddenly everybody
bought it and it was all you heard. I could
not listen to that album for years, and then when
you got back to it, you know, it's it's a
great record. But for a minute there was overplayed, but
certainly of the first album in physical graffiti for me, Yeah,

(01:42:06):
both but how come Jimmy could never like Robert could
never find his own thing. I managed Jimmy for a period,
and of course we had the firm manner was managing U.
The promblem with the firm was that neither Jimmy nor
Paul Rodgers wanted to do the songs for which they

(01:42:27):
were famous. Even so we bed two pretty big too radioactive. Yeah, yeah,
some good songs on it. But if only they'd just
done a couple of bad company songs and a couple
of free or a free song and you know, a
yard Birds song and have bled Zeppelin song that I

(01:42:48):
could have been retired many years well, Robert play did.
I was a big fan of the album with twenty
nine palms, et cetera. But when I went to see
him on that door, he would play some Zepplin stuff.
Oh he does now. I mean, I managed Robert for
a while and we're party company over that, because you know,
I remember having a conversation with him outdoors in a

(01:43:10):
restaurant with his band. At one table Robert and me
and our respective girlfriends. At another table between us was
Nil Rogers and his girlfriend. But with this conversation is
becoming heated, so his band, who are listening to everything
I'm saying. I'm saying, man, you just do a couple

(01:43:31):
of Zeppelin songs for God's sake, and the band will
never do We'll never do Let's I mean fucking band
right right? They could be replaced at a minute a minute,
We'll never do led Zeppelin's And of course Rom and
I parted company over that at that time. And of
course then he gets hold of Bill kurbish Ly who
talks him into doing led Zeppelin songs and the rest

(01:43:53):
is history, right, and are very good friends. By the way,
In fact you mentioned twenty nine Palms. He wrote that
so when he was coming to is it me in
Palm Springs where I have a house, and you know
he was with the Atlanta Miles and that line I
hear your voice on the radio is about a Lanta Miles,
just a little bit of Okay, how many times you've
been married? Who's counting three? Three? And are you married

(01:44:17):
right now? I certainly am yeah? How long? How long
is this marriage? Lasted? Twenty years? And you have any children?
I have to. I have my daughter Jody, who is
in our business. She has invented a way of selling
CDs at gigs were by using a charity thing, and
there was a line in Billboard recently from the head

(01:44:40):
marketing guide Atlantic says, Jody Carson is singlehandedly saving the
physical juice market. I mean she's she's her clients of
the whole skin of kid rock and she sells. She's
literally she's raised something like three million dollars for the
Shriners through this Eagles her work client, and you know,

(01:45:01):
she's made a she created a business out of nothing.
If you got four people working for her going to
gigs all the time. She started it with she and I.
She was assistant to a manager, merchandizing girl and you know,
like everything at one time. And I could never figure
out why we couldn't sell c ds at gigs, you know,

(01:45:21):
So I said, look, I think you've got to take
the CDs to the people. So she and I took
a box of CDs each at the end of the show.
And this may seem undignified for the manager of the
band and a legendary artists or managers. I'd like to
pump myself up to be but we're out there going
to get your CDs up twenty dollars for a CD

(01:45:44):
come on, come on. We sold a box each that night,
so I said, look, it's a little undignified for us
to be out there doing this, But we did it
a couple more times, and we got this cash from
selling these CDs at twenty bucks. Because you can't sell
a c D a a rock show for less than
twenty dollars because the record label wants, you know, nine dollars,

(01:46:05):
the venue wants like five dollars, so you've got to
sell it at that price. Except cause we in Foreigner
came up with the idea of pressing our own. We
covered every song, We took studio recordings of every hit
and eventually specifically for licensing and selling it shows. But
you don't have to the original radars can't say no,

(01:46:27):
they don't have to get paid. That's there's that. But
the interesting is we did eventually release the those records,
and we've got a gold album for see. The thing
about Foreigner is that we touched on this before that
they were a faceless band. Nobody knew who they were.

(01:46:47):
I discovered round about two thousand five, when we're really
starting this that nobody knows who Foreigners are. Okay, you
know that thing You're sitting on a plane. The guy
next to you said, what do you do right? I said, well,
I'm anse rock bands. And they say who, No, not
the who? Foreigner? Who No, not the who? Foreigner? I've
never heard of Foreigner. Yes, you've heard of Foreigner. You

(01:47:10):
know every song? And I start singing. You know how
good I am at that? I start singing the songs.
They know every song. So people who say they have
not heard of Foreigner, no, every song Foreigner has ever
recorded and had a hit with. Do you know Do
you know, Bob, that Foreigner has more top ten singles
than Journey? Did you know that? Well? I was just

(01:47:32):
going to bring up Journey, and I didn't know that
because I went to see the Earth stats Journey. I've
seen them a couple of times. I would see even
at the Hollywood ball Ones three years ago, and you
know Anniel whatever his name is, the Filipino guys, who
is that? And the reaction was beyond belief. It was
clear it wasn't Steve Prey. But what I realized at

(01:47:53):
that point is the audience on the songs, it was
about them now they'd grown up to it. They loved
the songs, didn't matter that it wasn't Steve Perry. They
were there for the song. The same thing as with four,
Absolutely the same movement. But the problem is everybody has
heard a Journey everybody. All Right, I challenge what. I know.
You're the manager, but I think you're living in a

(01:48:14):
little bit of a bubble. For those of us who
lived the first albums in seventy seven, I want to
know what love is? Was the eighty four eighty three
first album came out in seventy eight, right, they've got
together in uh and the want of this was on
the fifth album. Right, So anybody who lived through that

(01:48:35):
era knows who foreigner? Well, I have just stopped. What
made Journey different was the finality of the Sopranos. Irving
says two things made Journey different. Okay, FINALI of the
Sopranos and a tour that they did supporting definitely epid.
He puts it down to those two things. Well, the
way it was only last year that this is years ago,

(01:48:57):
I know because last year they played stadiums them, let
know what they did. But many years ago they did
a theater tour playing like the Beacon in you that
size place and so theoretically, what could you do with
foreigner to achieve that same mind share. Um, I am
going to disagree with you. Firstly, that everybody has not hurting.
I mean, I challenge you to do my test on

(01:49:18):
a plane one day. Okay, people under the age of forty,
but people over the age of forty. I'm surprised. People.
Our target market is what you've just said. Really, it's
forty and up evenly split male female. Funnily enough, but
you talked to people of between your age and my age,

(01:49:39):
and you're saying, you know this conversation, they have not
heard of foreigner. They will tell you they have not
heard of foreigner. I guess no experience, but I trust
you've got to do it. Okay, well know they know
the songs, but they do not know who recorded. So
what I started to do when I realized that was
every foreign at print ad that I take has the
song titles right. So my mantra to my marketing director

(01:50:03):
Guy is the mentor the songs are the brand. And
over the last it's been a slug. I'm telling you,
over the last fifteen years, we've changed that perspective. But
the reality is here, we are with more hits than Journey,
more top ten hits than Journey, and we're worth one
third of Journey in the eyes of a promoter. Okright,

(01:50:24):
we're gradually changing that because we're doing great business this year,
but this will be next year, will be our third
Live Nation headline Amphithy editor, so you know we're looking
forward to that one. Last year we had David Coverdell
with White Snake and Jason Bonham supporting, and we look
into a big, big deal for next year. So we

(01:50:44):
didn't do it this year. We just did state fairs,
casinos and did amazing business. And you know that's but
every time you've got to tell people who they are.
We've got the same number of hits as Fleetwood Mac,
We've only got one less top ten song than the Eagles,
but nobody has heard in Foreigner. Okay, I'm gonna I'm
gonna cut off your sales pitch, and I'm a Foreigner fan.

(01:51:07):
I mean, just like I was talking about, you know,
because Rick o'kaseck died at rick Akasak however he wanted,
however he did pronounce it, and of course their comeback
was with Mutt Lang and you had the same thing.
But their album with the album that Mutt Lang Foreigner
for stupendous, Okay, I mean, Waiting for a Girl like
You doesn't get any better than that. Never mind, you

(01:51:30):
know Jukebox here Jukebox Heroes different, but it's like urgent, unbelieving, unbelievable.
I mean, the whole thing was terrific album. But you know,
Journey is a different thing. Don't forget they put out
all the albums with the other singer, Greg Rowley that
were stiff, okay, and they certainly played stadiums before they

(01:51:51):
broke up. But you know, I remember Jeff Beck was
managed by Harvey Goldsmith, and before Jeff fired him, Harvey
had him everywhere. Jeff Beck is no better today than
he ever was. He was always stupendous, But once he
was on every TV show, the people who didn't know
that realized that promoter. Right. But I'm trying to say

(01:52:14):
is the question is you know whether you can have
that foreign or moment and if you tried to get
a one of those multi hits in a definitive movie
or anything. We have had some successes. We had a
sync license for I Want to Know What Love Is
was the final episode of Oranges and The New Black
and they used the lyrics for a wedding in the

(01:52:35):
thing and they went out went out with the whole
So will be on TV forever, Yeah, it will be.
It's not as big as the Sopranos. Sopranos that that
really broke journey. Okay. But the other thing about now,
I mean you talk about people don't know Foreigner. We
could sit here and we could talk about the TV
shows we watched, and they could be completely different shows.
This was an error where if you watched TV, everybody

(01:52:57):
watched when these things would come going out, there was
only one radio example, you know, and we we didn't
know it was classic rock at the time right there,
if that was the only format. Okay, well that begs
the question today's music, where personally I'm sort of nowhere
with it because you know, I'm seventy five and I'm
getting ready to retire. So my whole thing is working Foreigner,

(01:53:22):
trying to get it where I want it to be.
And you know, we're working with THEE. Snyder, we're making movies,
we're doing all kinds of different things with the who
is an incredibly talented man, by the way, much much
less playing music now than writing stuff and co producing.
His son Cody is making a movie shortly with a

(01:53:45):
big studio, so we're working that side of the business.
But with Foreigner, I just want to leave this at
least as big as it was back in the day,
and we're getting there, you know, but it's it's a
struggle for the for the for the reason I told
you now. The big thing these days is sync licensing,
as you probably know, and sync licensing is the number

(01:54:08):
one driver of streams. So we got a use in
um stranger things, and the streams went through the damn
roofs was cold as ice. And that's suddenly now we're
starting to see younger people coming for because of these things.
So we're gung ho after getting if any music supervisor

(01:54:29):
at their listings, I will cut you one hell of
a deal extranger of things. They came to you, or
you can went to them. Well, Warners have a very
good sync licensing department and Warner's own the original thing,
so they came to us with that. You know, I
don't have anyone out there, you know, because the major
labels have almost a lock on this stuff because they've

(01:54:52):
got such a massive amount of repertoire. You will go.
You can go to a movie studio meeting, a studio
meeting and you'll see a rep from Universal Warner or
well Kevin Weaver Atlanta. Keep my god, that guy gets everything.
Robert Plant called me up one day after I stop

(01:55:14):
managing him because he used to call me, still calls
me frequently. Uh. He said, can you get me like
a movie thing? And I called up Kevin and I
spent here and I spent three days together. We called
up everybody that we knew, everybody because I know a
number of directors from that time in film business. He

(01:55:34):
knows everybody. The tour of us sat on that phone
and Kevin got him the end title to the Day
after Tomorrow, Big movie, right right. Robert, in his wisdom,
turned it down. Artists, So thanks so much for being

(01:55:55):
once again. You're listening to Phil Carson on the barb
Left That's podcast. We'll see you next week.

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