Stevie Van Zandt

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Gets Podcast.
My guest today is Stevie van zand he's got a
new autobiography, Unrequited Infatuations. Stephen, glad to have you here.
I'm good to be with you, man. Okay, let's start
from the beginning. Your friends, what do they call you? Miami?
Little Steven, Steve, Stephen ste is fine, No, but what

(00:34):
do they call you? Thank? Call me? Yeah, okay, Steve
or Stevie or Stephen, Stevie mostly Stevie mostly growing up?
Were you always Stevie? Yeah? Okay. So one thing you
mentioned in the book is an offend comment that if

(00:56):
your finances were better then maybe you could have afforded children.
Is this something you consciously thought of? Well? Yeah, to
an extent, I never felt really stable enough to have children.
I never gave it a serious thought as to, um,
you know, should I should I find a way to

(01:18):
do that or not? But as my life has unfolded,
it's been rather unstable, and I really do feel one
should feel some stability before one has some children. You
know my own feeling. Any regrets that you didn't have them?
I don't know, Um, not really? You know, it's just

(01:44):
it wasn't It wasn't in the cards. This this life,
you know, maybe next life. I don't know. Okay, do
you believe in reincarnation or you religious person or just
saying that, I'm just saying that I'm not a religious person. Uh,
you know, I just I really, I really don't have

(02:04):
any thoughts about it. I Um, I think it's probably
because of my own arrested development that I never felt
like I quite grew up myself. So I'm not sure
I would never be qualified two uh for that for
that very important role in life. Okay, you wrote the book,
it's now out. How are you dealing with the reception?

(02:29):
I gotta tell you the truth. It's been amazing, amazingly
well received, um, more than any album and I and
I've always gotten good album reviews, you know, I got
no complaints, but uh, this is something I mean, the
response has been remarkable, to be honest, I mean I

(02:49):
didn't expect that, you know, New York Times best seller
List and uh, London Times and l A and every
everywhere is doing well and uh and the reviews been spectacular.
It's just one of those things that I didn't really
think about. I just did it. But but the results
have been amazing so far. Great, And now that the

(03:11):
book is finalized, is there anything that you would want
to go back and change? Um? No, I caught a
couple of errors when I did the audio book, you know,
which uh makes me wonder if if if those things
are done in the wrong order, you know, I think
most most books have done that way. You know, you

(03:32):
do the audiobook last. I wonder though, if I do
another book, I think I'll do the audiobook first, because
if you find I mean, we've been through this thing
seven eight nine times, me and my editor and my
publisher and so many and others, and there was still
like a dozen mistakes left in it, you know. But

(03:55):
so that was nothing nothing major, nothing making it was
a grammatical mistake. It's just through a stupid stupid things. Yeah, nothing,
you know, there was there was one serious thing where
like the wrong album. Uh what was it? Uh? Uh
you know somebody, some some bands album was was the

(04:15):
wrong album which uh, which wasn't my mistake, it was
it was made by once. I mean, you you know
the process. But once you go through your own process,
it goes through an editorial process with the publisher, and
sometimes they will change things thinking that they're correcting something
when they're not. So it's all very very The book

(04:36):
world is a trip, and I gotta tell you the truth.
It's a different it's a different world, and it takes
some it takes some adjusting. You know, you gotta you
gotta give up some of the usual total control that
that I usually demand. I mean, I just I just
did eight days in Europe and the book is different
in every country. You know, I'm gonna I'm gonna try

(04:59):
and collect them all because you know, I mean, there
are there are countries that change the title without mentioning
it to you, like damn, that's that's different. You know.
So you know, you work very hard to get everything
exactly right. You know, when you're making albums, you know

(05:20):
that everything from the art to the graphics to you know,
you name it, and to go from country to country
and having it would be different every single time has
been pretty pret remarkable. And you know, one country left
off the Dylan blurb, you know, one country left off
the McCartney blurb. You know, you know it'll just change

(05:42):
the title. Okay, you have all those blurbs in the
book are you self conscious about asking for those or
you have no problem. I didn't ask. I couldn't do it.
I couldn't do it, you know, Um, I don't. I
didn't ask anybody. I think the publisher, the publisher mostly

(06:03):
did it. UM trying to think of either a publisher
or my managers would uh would you know, talk to
talk to people? And uh, my publishers said, have been
you know, uh friendly with Bob Dylan's manager, and they
you know, they sent every single book to him. And
it's the first time he's ever actually done a blurb

(06:26):
that they can remember. Nobody can remember another Bob Dylan blurb.
Somebody says there might have been one forty or fifty
years ago for Alan Ginsberg or somebody. Uh. So that
was that was beyond beyond belief. I mean, that was
that was so so so nice of him to do.
And I didn't ask, um, but I did send him
the book right away, I said, I sent the book

(06:47):
to Bruce. So I sent the book to Bob because
I didn't want it to be one of those books
that you know, any kind of gossip or or I
didn't want to make any Bruce news at all. And uh,
some of the conversations with Bruce and Bob were intimate,
private conversations. I wanted to make sure they were cool,

(07:08):
you know, with those um and that has been the
challenge in the book because I I know a little
bit too much, you know, So it's a matter of
what do you leave in? You know, what do you
leave out? And it's a little bit, it's a little bit.
You're gonna be a little bit careful about that. So
in those two cases, I thought, I want to try,
I want to check with them, and they neither one

(07:30):
of them changed one single word, which which was which
was nice? Well, there's the code of the road, as
we know. And speaking of the road, that's where you
seem to run into Dylan in the book. It seems
like you don't have that extensive and interaction with him
in your life. What is the truth now that we're talking. Yeah,
he's just sort of a fantastic acquaintance. You know. It's

(07:55):
not I wouldn't I wouldn't be so uh, you know,
changress to say, you know, we're best friends, but uh,
I don't know. I just think we we just had
to like each other and run into each other every
couple of years. Um, you know, we don't talk every day,
like like me and me and Bruce do you know,

(08:15):
pretty much. But but Bob is just every time I
see him, it's an adventure. And uh, I just I
just thought that they're just kind of fun, this kind
of fun encounters because he's just a fun guy. I mean, he's, uh,
you know, he's in some ways he's very very normal,

(08:37):
and in some ways he's just uh, he's just always
surprising you with something, you know. So it's uh, I
just I just love the guy. I mean, aside from
being so extraordinarily important to my work and everybody else's,
uh and his place in history, but he uh, he's
just one of those fascinating kick cats that that very proud,

(09:00):
very proud to know him. And uh, but I don't
see him nearly as often as as as I as
I wish, I wish I could. What's your favorite Dylan album? Oh,
it's got to be Blonde. I'm Blonde in the end.
I mean, you know, I like a lot of them,
but mind I'm Blonde was the one that just, h

(09:20):
you know, it's it was just the the ultimate, the
ultimate Dylan album. I think a lot of people agree
with you that's really the number one true fans. But
I'm really bringing it all back home guy, because you
know it's all right, ma, it is transcendent. And of course,

(09:40):
at this led, at this late date, subterranean Homesick Blues
is a big deal. Everyone talks about Highway sixty one,
but I prefer bringing it all back home. Yeah. That
was that's the half electric catholic acoustic one, right, right, exactly? Yeah, yeah,
I know, I mean, you know, maybe maybe skipping the
first one, but you know, other than that, the first seven, uh,

(10:03):
just remarkable. I mean I wouldn't I wouldn't argue with anybody.
I mean, free wheeling, you know, times they were changing,
you you, you know, extraordinary things on these records. I
mean complete completely. I mean, I know the words used
too often, but they are game changers for the folk world.
They completely changed the folk world overnight. And uh and

(10:24):
then as soon as as soon as they you know,
they were kind of reluctant to accept him because he
was kind of radical, and then the truth they accept them.
They kind of walked away and plugged in because but
but but no. I talked about Subtorian Homestay Blues in
the book as the single most important, you know, two

(10:46):
sentences in history of rock and roll. I think I
certainly know the record. For those people who don't know
the record, why don't you just give us the two lines? Well,
the first the first line he's you know, he because
Bob is a mixture of you know, playfulness and fun

(11:06):
and uh, you know, just kind of uh, you know,
he always he's always wanted to make you think a
little a little bit and has you know, coming from
the beat, poetry, the metaphor and symbolism type stuff, but
also just sometimes just stream of consciousness. And and he

(11:29):
doesn't even he doesn't even intend to say anything. He
just likes putting the words together. I don't think anybody
loves English language as much as Bob Dylan. He just
loves the language and loves to play with it. So
the first line is is this kind of that a
little provocative, a little little you know, which is Johnny's
in the basement mixing up the medicine. You know, what
does that mean? I go through like five or six

(11:52):
things it could mean in the book, but you know,
And then the second line is the is the one
I'm on the pavement think about the government well, what
a weird thing to say to us thirteen fifteen year olds.
You know, what do you mean? They're thinking about the government.
Who would want to do that? Why? Why would you

(12:14):
do that? You know? Uh, that was a remarkable thing
to say in a pop song, you know, basically, and
uh it really made you think. And I've been thinking
ever since. You know, Okay, let's go back to the
book for a second. Your name is on the cover,

(12:34):
but when you go inside the book as an editor,
to what degree was the editor involved in the writing
of the book, and to or to what degree it's
all yours? I wrote every single word. And I try
to think in the beginning because I read so many
biographies and they all seemed felt similar because the co

(12:56):
writer is doing the writing, and it's just they all
become very homogenized. And I just decided, I'm not it's
not gonna be me. Um. So I um, I try
to figure out how how can I how can I
make sure that this is in my own voice? And
I thought to myself, well, I'm a picture doing the
audio book, you know, and uh, if I can, if

(13:20):
I can write it the way I you know that
I'm gonna speak it um, it might work. And so
I explained to the publisher and to the uh, to
my editor, I said, listen, this is not gonna look right.
It's gonna be not correct grammatically, it's not gonna uh,
it's gonna be sentenced fragments all over the place. But

(13:42):
if you if you read it the way I'm writing it,
it'll sound like me, you know. And that's what I
ended up doing. Uh, And um, I think it really
worked because everybody the first thing everybody says to me, boy,
I can really hear you. I hear your voice in
this and uh, that was very important to me. Um.
You know, it was hard for my editor because he's

(14:02):
a co writer and he had done some great books
for George for George Clinton and Brian Wilson and Quest
Love and I forget who else. But he's really a
terrific writer himself, and uh, you know, and he did
me a favorite really by by not by not co writing,
and uh, but he was very very helpful in terms
of the editing because I can digress, you know, with

(14:26):
the best of them. Man. I mean, you know, it's
hard to make it hard for me to make it
through a page without one story turning into another story,
turning into another story, you know. And I wanted to
keep it somewhat on the on the right path. And
most importantly, I wanted to maintain a balance of the
history because I witnessed every day except the first decade

(14:49):
of rock and roll, and uh, and I got some
thoughts on that subject, um and and I've been a
lot involved a lot of craft. So I wanted to
make sure the craft made it into the book because
I thought that might be useful, you know. And and
then in the middle, it was the narrative, you know,
So that balance of those three things was important. And

(15:11):
that's that's what I told the editor to keep an
eye on. I want to make sure that balanced between
history and narrative and craft, uh, you know, kind of
stuck together throughout the book. I want to wander too
far from from any of those three things. And and
then and then, you know, when it came to whatever

(15:31):
the whatever I was talking about at that moment, whatever
the event was, or you know, you gotta you gotta
provide a little context, you gotta provide some environment, you
you know, provide what you're thinking in that moment. And
it was a question of how much, you know, for
each for each incident. That that's that's real tricky because

(15:52):
you know, you gotta provide some for us. The book
becomes a list, you know, I did this, and I
did that, and I did this and I did that.
You know, that's boring, So you know you want to
you want to make it. You know, I was hoping
that would end up being more like a detective novel
or Dan Brown book where they don't know what's coming next,
because I didn't know what was coming next, you know.

(16:14):
I mean, the first half it's been a pretty pretty
linear you know, local kids from Jersey makes it to
the top and rock and roll, which is a great
story myself, and you know, I'm not I don't want
to sound ungrateful about that. That's wonderful, you know. But
the second half, when I leave the street band and
my life has ended literally, uh, and there's no plan

(16:38):
and now I'm just wandering in the wilderness, I think
it's becomes more interesting. And now that the more universal
themes start to emerge, I think, you know, the the
search for identity and the search for purpose in life
and spiritual you know, spiritual enlightenment and those kinds of things,
um that everybody can relate to, right, I just want

(16:59):
it to be a music book for music people exclusively. Yeah. Okay,
so you had a book deal and you gave the
money back. Right now you have another book deal. How
did you decide to actually do it? Was it has
something to do with the time of the uh uh
you know shutdown of America the world? Actually and what

(17:22):
was your process and how long did it take to do?
You one of those guys you know you sharpen your
pencil every day at noon or whatever you started, So
give us some of the story. Yeah. I think that
the survey of quarantine thing was the biggest factor. I'm
not sure it would have ever been done without that, honestly. Um,
it just was a perfect opportunity. Um. A big factor

(17:46):
was the previous three years. Two that the seventeen eighteen
nineteen happened to be the most productive years of my
entire life. Unexpectedly got back into the music business, said
that no plans to do that, Like most of my
life was just not planned. I got back in, I

(18:07):
put out two two albums which I didn't expect to
do so Fire in Summer of Sorcery. I ended up
releasing six album packages in those three years, which is
about as productive as you can be, you know. And
and so suddenly I reconnected with my life's work, which I,
you know, unconsciously abandoned for thirty years. Um, suddenly I was,

(18:33):
you know, back playing my own songs again, and uh,
I kind of appreciating them, I must say, for the
first time, maybe uh the first time in a long time,
appreciating them in a new kind of way. I just felt,
you know, jeezus, stuff was interesting. It has a value
to it that, uh, I've never really considered. It's something

(18:55):
about the you know, the genre I created, this rock
meat soul thing that it kind of holds up in
a funny way because it was never fashionable. You know,
it was never trendy. When I did it the first time,
it wasn't fashionable. So when something's never been fashionable, it
kind of makes it timeless, you know, it gives it

(19:17):
a timeless quality. And uh, and I just was a
little bit, a little bit struck by by the by
the nature of the music. And I put together this
amazing band, actually put together by my friend Mark Ribbler,
put a couple of my old friends in it, and
and and they just performed the stuff so well that

(19:39):
uh uh, I said, well, it sounds so good. I
mean it all. It all started with with with this
promoter in London at the end of the street tour
two thousand sixteen. He said, when you come back to
London And I said, well, I usually me and my
wife's come back every Thanksgiving for her birthday because she
loves London so much, but this year coming earlier for

(20:01):
Bill Wyman's eightieth birthday, and he said, well, that's that's
the week of my blues festival. Put a band together
and and and headline one of the night. And I
was like, wow, I haven't done that in thirty years.
But more I thought about it, the more it sounded
like fun. I said, you know what, I'll bring back
the horns and I'll be able to do some like

(20:24):
Paul Butterfield stuff with the horns that nobody's nobody ever
hears that stuff. I'll do some electric flag nobody ever
hears that stuff. You know, I'll do some blue stuff,
and then I'll do some of my own songs. And
when I started playing my own, my own music, I
was really really struck by it. So so we ended
up well, let's let's let's make an album and and

(20:48):
the soul FA. I wasn't ready to write a whole
new albums, so we did so fire h an album
of songs I've written for other people. And by accident
again somebody came by and gave us a sponsorship to tour.
I had a TV show that I was going of
fell through. Bruce decided to do Broadway. I had nothing

(21:10):
better to do. Um, all right, let's let's tour it.
And we start touring, and then ideas start coming to me,
and uh and Summer sorcery Man, a whole new album
came out of a gift from the gods, you know,
and and uh you know, and so suddenly, uh, here
comes the Quarantine and I felt some closure because of that,

(21:34):
I felt the mute musically, I had a little closure
on that part of my life. And uh, you know,
I had new managers. First time I've ever had managers, uh,
you know, which is many of the problems I run
into in the book, because I never had managers or
manager and U and one of the managers actually suggested

(21:57):
at the end of the book, which helped me formulate.
You know, Okay, I know the beginning, I know the end.
You know, let's just tell a story and try and
keep it to uh, try and keep it somewhat coherent,
because my life, uh, pretty pretty crazy. Okay, So you

(22:17):
talked about reading all the biographies, you know, Ray Davies
says Ray Davously saying, England. Give me two good reasons
why I ought to stay. Tell me too. Music biographies
that you think are great, Well, Bob Dylan's Chronicles has
to be number one. Um. I thought Bruce's book were great. Um,

(22:43):
and I liked um, I like Robbie Robertson and uh
and I like Levi on Helms too. Well. One book
you mentioned in the book which I love is the
Tommy James book. Oh, I think it's great, really great. Yeah, yeah,
that's great. Uh he's uh, he's lucky to be alive.

(23:09):
But I mean you know that that was that wasn't
great when Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. Yeah, okay,
So how long did it take you to write your
book and what was the process? About a year? You know,
about about a year of the quarantine. I would say,
um we um, we decided, you know, I wanted I

(23:31):
wanted to treat this thing a little bit like therapy,
which which really was. So I I spoke with the
editor I think three times a week for an hour
or two, like Monday, Wednesdays, and Fridays. So I would
write over the weekend. Um, you know, I would write
and and then and then we would discuss it and

(23:53):
I would write. You know, uh, just do that, you know,
writing constantly and discussing it, like two or three times
a week. Uh, for various reasons, you know, just to
make sure again I was maintaining this balance I wanted, um,
but he was. He also was a good sounding board

(24:15):
for what people might want to know about you know, um,
because I gotta I go. There's a lot I kind
of got a little bit too much in my head. So, um,
you want to make sure you're you're not boring people
or spending too much time on one subject, making sure

(24:36):
you're spending enough time on the subject. Um, those kinds
of basic you know, limitations that you want to You
want to have somebody you know saying you know, you're
going a little too far here or not far enough there.
So um, there was a almost a constant conversation with
the editor and I really uh, so you know it

(24:57):
was really a collaborator in a true sense of the word. Okay,
how come you never had a manager till now? Well
asked a big question. I wish, I wish, I wish
I knew. You know, I spoke to a lot of

(25:17):
guys when I was looking for a manager for Jukes,
because I was managing the Jukes in the beginning and
I desperately wanted to find a manager for them before
I left uh to join the Easter Band. And uh
I got, I got I'm the greatest agent in the world.
That was big, you know, getting him Frank Barcelona. But

(25:39):
you know, our manager represents you, and uh, I was
having trouble finding somebody that I felt, okay representing me
if I'm not in the room, you know. Um And
I think it has to do with my aversion to
money frankly and uh and people who's job it is

(26:00):
to make money. I sometimes have trouble finding a common
ground with with with people like that, and and and
in the manager's case, that's kind of that's one of
their main jobs is to make money. And you know
what I mean, if I get if I get that
sense that money is their priority. I uh I don't

(26:21):
trust it. I don't trust it, uh because for me, uh, integrity, dignity. Uh,
certainly the art, the work comes first, has to come first.
And I realized, you know, we're always trying to the
great dilemmas, trying to find a balance between art and commerce.
I understand that, and I you know, and I never

(26:43):
found it. I mean, if anything, my life is the
triumph of art overcommerce. Uh. But I think you know,
when I when I sense that somebody is just you know,
in it for the money, you know, to some extent,
it just turns me off. So I think that was

(27:04):
part of it. You know. I just never they were
quite fast somebody. I mean, looking back, that was that
was a mistake I should have I should have I
should have just picked somebody and had them do it,
because a whole lot of opportunities were lost because because
of that and uh, not having a buffer. People people

(27:26):
like the artist to have a buffer. They don't want
to talk directly to you, you know, they just don't.
That's just how the business works. They want they wanted
they want an intermedia, you know, that's why you know,
the networks. The other thing is, you know, you know,
I've been through this with deals where they say insulting things.

(27:47):
They're just negotiating, but hit me emotionally. So since you
made all your own deals, how good a negotiator are you?
Certainly in retrospect, Well that's the problem. I'm very good. Uh,
And it was hard to find managers that were as good. Uh.

(28:10):
But it wasn't the negotiating of the deals that was
the problem so much. In fact, there's advantages. There's advantages
to the artist if you if you can get somebody
to actually do the deal with you. Uh, there's advantages
to being the artist. And in that case because they
don't want to say no to you, you know, so

(28:32):
sometimes it actually is an advantage. Um. What's the biggest
problem is there's not the negotiations as much as just
not having an advocate. I mean, the gig of a
manager is is advocate. You know. Uh, I can sell
you all day long, Man, I can't sell me, you know,

(28:57):
and you need somebody selling you. And asked that that's
just the truth, man, And I never had that, So
why do you have it now? Well? I got lucky.
First of all, I didn't I wasn't looking for a
manager at this stage of the game and my agent,
my music agent, one day just said, hey, I'm going

(29:17):
to lunch with these guys. You know, why don't you
come along. I didn't even tell me who they were.
And they were just having a conversation. And at some point,
you know, they revealed that they were you know, they
were managers and and uh, at some point I said
they were interested in managing me. I said, wow, you know,

(29:40):
you know, about forty years too late, but hey, let's
let's you know, and I just I just liked them.
I like, I just liked them both as two guys,
and I liked them personally, you know, I got I
kind of kind of got to know. I mean that
one conversation before you know, before they became my managers.
But I just kind of like them. And uh, and

(30:04):
I thought, well, you know, let's see, let's see what
happens here. Let's see what we can do. Because I've
always wanted to have a manager, So let's give it
a try. Let's go back to the beginning. Okay, you know,
you start Massachusetts, but you really grow up in New Jersey.
What kind of kid were you? Were you the leader
of the gang? You remember the gang? You're a guy

(30:24):
off to the side, you have friends, you didn't have friends.
I was a small kid. Um um, yeah, I wouldn't, wouldn't.
I wouldn't say as the leader of a gang. I
probably UH had that inclination right from you know, birth,

(30:45):
to be more of the sideman or the guy you know,
off the side or behind the guy. You know. I
don't remember very often, uh being the leader of the gang.
Once in a while, I find myself in that position.
I remember after seeing the West Side Story movie. Uh,

(31:08):
we started having gangs in in suburban junior high school.
I guess it was let we see one of that
fifty seven fifty nine when that movie was like six one,
early sixties, right, Yeah, So I'm like cannon whatever whatever,
whatever grade you're in, the ten eleven and I remember,
I remember I did start that gang. And and and

(31:31):
and during a lunchtime or whenever people went outside recessed, Uh,
we would we would have knife fights with with pens,
and we would write on each other, you know, whoever
wrote the most on each other, you know one and uh,
and I was. I was the leader of that one.

(31:52):
And of course we got busted and getting that a
lot of trouble, Uh, but other than that, you know,
I was kind of one of the guys. You know,
my my neighbors were older. My one of my best
friends lived behind me was a year older. So um,
you know, the older guys always would be the more
of the leaders in any situation. And I don't know,

(32:17):
I just was like a lost little kid, kind of
just waiting for destiny to speak. I remember hating being
a kid. I do remember that distinctly. I wanted to
grow up and get on with it. And and then,
you know, uh, thirteen years old and uh, Kennedy gets

(32:38):
shot on my thirteenth birthday, your birthday, November, And uh okay,
well let's go back to November, your thirteen. I certainly
remember that day. Did you have plans to have a
celebration party? Yeah? Yeah, and uh, you know, to show

(32:59):
you how politically where I was back then, that's all
I was concerned with. It was like, you know, the
party gonna happen or not, you know, yeah, but soon
just after that, right, just four months later, you know,
the big bang. Okay, wait, wait, wait, let's not get
there for a seconds. Hey, good student, mediocre student, bad student.

(33:24):
I was a good student, very good. Ever thought of
you know, going through college, what your parents say, did
you miss you know what we are your thoughts there?
It was, it was a thought. My parents wanted me
very much to go to college. Um. I had a
couple of advanced classes in fact heading that way, like calculus,

(33:45):
believe it, and physics and the certain kinds of physics
classes and a couple of couple of different things. Yeah. Um.
Uh so at that point, you know, you're trying to
find in the normal route into society. I thought it

(34:05):
was gonna be college. Yeah. Okay, but let's go back
to the earlier days. Beatles are in sixty four. Did
you have a transistor? Were you a sports kid? Listened
to the sports? Um, not big on sports, No, but
you had a transistory, remember getting a transistory? Yeah yeah, yeah, Yeah,

(34:26):
that's how I heard the Beatles. Okay, you listening Were
you listening to you know, this is all New York radio,
w m C A, w ABC Tentendons. Were you listening
to those before the Beatles? Oh? Yeah. We had great
radio all along, all along, uh fifties into the early sixties. Uh.

(34:50):
The radio was was terrific. We were much luckier than
our than our British brothers and sisters who uh literally
had nothing until until until Pirates, you know until okay,
but when but you were listening, you were an active
music listener before the Beatles. Yeah, I I bought a

(35:10):
couple of dozen singles. You know, I remember what some
of those were? Oh yeah, yeah, first was Tears on
My Pillow, Little Anthony, the imperials um Uh. Poison Ivy
was given to me by my aunt because I had
poison ivy. I bought, you know, uh Sherry. Uh. Mid

(35:31):
four Seasons were huge, Twist and Shop by the Isley Brothers,
Palisades Park, A Little Prittle, Angelis, Duke of Earl, you
know you casting down? Uh you know those those were
those were just uh really really great great singles. Willie

(35:52):
Still Love Me Tomorrow, the Rills? How about the Beach
Boys in any West Coast stuff? You know, I didn't.
I didn't. I didn't really like the Beach Boys for
the West Coast stuff. Now, No, I didn't. I didn't
get that whole thing. There's something, uh, you know, I
don't know. I don't know what it was. The college,
even though I thought of going to college, but the

(36:14):
whole fraternity vibe of them with the letters on the sweater,
and there was something that was just to turn off
to make that at that stage, you know. Um, I
mean that's why the Beatles was so shocking. It was
it was, it was, it was shockingly contemporary, you know.
I mean, and even the Four Seasons, which is the

(36:35):
other group that survived the Beatles, and then the only
two that did, you know, is the Beach Toys in
the fourth Theasters, and of course the Motown and Soul stuff.
But but the Four Seasons you know again, you know,
they looked like your Italian uncles. I mean, you know,
you love them. You love the records, I mean various records,
among the greatest records of ad. I mean, you know,

(36:57):
one one phenomenal thing after the other. Sherry Big Girls
will Cry, walked like a man, big man in town,
Ronnie rag Dolls, rag Dolls, I get it, you know,
Marlena Candy Girl. Let mean, you know, phenomenal stuff, phenomenal stuff.
But you know, you didn't really, you know, you didn't wanna.

(37:21):
I didn't want to be them, you know whatever, for
whatever reason, you know, And and it was it was
the British invasion that just okay, you know, So when
did you personally first hear the Beatles. I was in
bed under the coverage with my transistor radio, and I

(37:41):
remember my brother would listen also, he was in the
next bed. We're both in the same room and older, younger, younger.
He's seven years younger. Uh because uh, you know, my
mother remarried when I was seven, and that's how I
got and that's how an Italian kid gets a Dutch name.

(38:03):
And so I had a I had a brother and
sister that came along at that point. But I remember,
like it was yesterday. They you know, you're digging whatever's
on the radio, and that's all great. I want to
hold your hand. Comes on and they hit the high
note and me and my brother burst out laughing just spontaneously,

(38:29):
you know, and I and I you know, and I've
been analyzing that ever since, you know, which it comes
down to. The Bells had just hit on something remarkable
that obviously came from the fifties, came from all the
the do Op and certainly Everly Brothers and and everybody

(38:53):
else and Roy Orbison and all all of them. But
but but they had taken it to some new level
and communicated just unbridled joy somehow there was some something
joyous in in that in in their music that was
uh new. It was just new and unexplainable really uh

(39:18):
and man, it was just like, uh, just a you know,
just a volcano. You know. The culture was just transformed
overnight completely. Okay, So the record I Want to Hold
Your Hand forget the stuff on VJ before because we
didn't know about it then. So I Want to Hold

(39:38):
You And it's actually released at the end of December,
but literally after the first of the year. It's gigantic.
Beatles are not on until February. Did you buy the single?
And then there was She Loves You Would All Get You.
On the end there was Meet the Beatles. How active
were you before they were on? Ed Sullivan? Yeah, no, no,
uh very Uh. That was the first. That was the

(39:58):
first album I ever bought, which we thought was the first.
We thought was their first album. Of course it turns
out to be their second, right, Um, but but that
was my album buying, you know. That was the beginning
of album buying for me. Uh. And then and then yeah,
whatever you could find at that point, they you know, VJ,

(40:19):
the Swan something was on Swan you know uh and
uh and actually their first album kind of snuck out
there and on some maybe on DJ, also on j
R introducing the Beatles. Yeah, yeah, yeah, uh. We couldn't
get enough. We couldn't we could not get enough. I mean,

(40:42):
there's never been a sonic takeover like like that, like that,
I mean, as everybody knows. I'm sure you know, by
April they had the top five singles, uh, and another
fifteen or twenty on the charts at the same time,
you know, but the top five singles, uh yeah, nobody

(41:04):
want to hear anything else. I mean, but you know,
but soon there would be other British invaders that would
do quite well. They've five We're right on their heels,
and and and and glad all over with would replace
uh uh one of one of them on one of
the Beatles songs, and then you know it's just one

(41:26):
one after the other. Hermit's, Hermits, the animals, and then
you know, stones, yard birds. Okay, so I certainly remember
this era before the Beatles was a folk era. Every
household had a nylon string guitar. People would play a
few chords. The Beatles hit overnight, people are growing there

(41:47):
here and getting guitars. What was going on with you? No, no, no, no,
you're not exaggerating. I mean literally, February eight, nobody had
a band. You didn't see band. You know, the four
or five guys singing and playing didn't exist. You know. Uh,
you went to your high school dance. It was an

(42:08):
instrumental band, alright. So February nine, they played this variety
show that the whole family watched on Sunday nights. February
tent everybody had a band in the garage, and I
am telling you everybody you know it. It changed the
culture overnight and it would continue really throughout the entire sixties.

(42:31):
When you went out at night and had to have fun.
I mean you might go to driving Okay, to see
a movie. Other than that, you went out to see
a band, or in my case, you will actually be
playing in a band. But bands took over the culture
after that, Uh, in a really you know, fun positive way.
That was all you did. I mean there was no

(42:52):
one through remind your younger younger listeners. Uh, there was
no internet or cell phones or video games or you know,
there wasn't a lot of distractions. We did have a
good six seven, eight, fantastic rock and roll TV shows
on in those days for about a year and a half,

(43:13):
which I think looking back was quite remarkable. But mostly,
you know, it was radio and going out and seeing
bands and so um the the you know you. We
were just so lucky to be that generation because that
meant there were lots of places to play. And I

(43:33):
mean right through high school we were booked all the time.
Uh and uh, how did you did you have play
any instrument prior to the Beatles? How did you pick
up the guitar? And how did you form a band? No,
my first two bands I was I was the lead singer,
so I didn't learn how to play guitar for about
a year or two. But I started early, just before

(43:56):
the Beatles hit. My grandfather, from my Italian grand father
from from you know, my mother's father, who was from Calabria,
showed me the song of his village, a little melody
that was just uh. I guess every every town had
their little theme song. I guess. Uh, So he he

(44:17):
was showing me that. I and I wasn't you know,
crazy about playing guitar as much as I wanted to
spend time with my grandfather. Tell you truth, you know
what I mean. It was that kind of thing. Um,
but I got like a I don't know, six month
head start before everybody else but guitars, and then UM

(44:38):
sixty four, you know, right in the sixty five. I
didn't really UM start for my my my, my main band,
the Source, uh started in sixties six, at which point
I'm playing lead guitar. So it took me. Uh, it
took me a couple of years, I guess to get there. Okay,

(45:06):
a lot of people from that era, and you've certainly
met all of them. I've certainly met some of them.
They're not really that talkative. Their personality is so much,
but they get on stage, they light up, the music
speaks through them, and their whole life opens up. The
girls all on them. So you're now the lead singer
of a band, then the lead guitarist of band. How

(45:27):
does your life change? You know? What was really uh funny, ironic?
I don't know. You know, we're watching Hard Day's Night,
you know, which is just the uh you know, primer, primer.
How do you say that for how to be in
a rock and roll you know? You you hope UM

(45:50):
and the girls did not like us who were in
a band. It was first of all, the whole rock
star concept at that point was English. You know you
if you weren't English, you were kind of irrelevant. And
and in our in our area, in our school, the

(46:14):
girls still like the football players, you know. And uh,
you were just kind of freaky. To be honest, it
wasn't It wasn't like you were cool to be in
a band in the sixties. It was more freaking a
freakiness about you, uh, because it was it wasn't a
business phill seventies, first of all. And before that, like

(46:38):
I said, it was this kind of a British thing.
They just kind of owned it. So you were just,
I don't know, some kind of want to be I guess,
or something but not considered cool or something that girls
desired certainly, you know. Uh, you know, so your life
doesn't really change other than my life taking on a

(47:01):
bit of a purpose, which which was a big, you know,
a big thing for a kid. Man. You know, you're looking,
You're looking, You're wondering, you know, where are you going
in this world? Man? And I'm telling you right now,
I was having a lot of problems trying to sit
in trying to think of where I fit in before
the Beatles hit, and then I always tie it together.

(47:22):
And then four months later the Wronging Stones came. So
it's always have been a fifty fifty thing for me. Um,
you know, because the Beatles were just you know, yes,
they revealed the new world, but they were just way
too good to think that you could do it, you know,
and they this were we caught them halfway through the career.
You know, they're singing together since fifty seven. They were

(47:44):
going to sixty nine. You know, here we are there,
there's phenomenal. Okay, the harmony is ridiculously perfect. The hair
is perfect, the clothes, every everything's perfect. And four months
later it comes to the Wrong Stones. A little more casual,
a lot more casual. Uh the hair is not perfect

(48:05):
except for Brian Jones. Uh low harmony whatsoever. You know,
they made it look easier than it was. They really
were at the first punk band in every sense of
the word. But they made they made it may they
made it look easier than it was. And uh so
you know, I always say that the Beatles revealed this
new world and they're only Stones invited us. And okay,

(48:25):
now the music change versus a British invasion then, and
these are not strict demarcations, but I'll throw them out
there anyway. You have the folk rock of the Birds,
then you have this sixties seven coming in with Jefferson Airplane, etcetera.
Did you like all kinds of music? Because you remember
this was on Saturday night on w ABC, they'd have

(48:46):
wars between the Beatles and the Stones. You know, were
you a fan of everything or was there certain stuff? No,
I like this and I don't like that. Well, you
had some of that going on. But but we were
surprisingly a model culture at that point. I mean, you know,
not strictly but but but very much so in a

(49:09):
country that you know, it was the only country ever
created that was not a model culture. Uh. You know,
we were a culture of ideas, many of which were
still trying to implement um but we but musically we
were very much a model culture. And and like you say,
the trends went year by year in those days and

(49:33):
pretty much followed by everybody, you know, which was a
great education because you know, you pick up a little
bit of this, pick up a little bit of that.
Some people stayed in that in that certain mode. I
mean sixty four British of Rage, sixty five folk rock,
sixty six, Blues rock sixty seven, Psychedelics, sixty eight country Rocks,
and then sixty nine the Southern the Southern white gospel

(49:56):
blues thing with Glania Bonni and all the rest. Uh.
And you kind of went from trend to trend, and
everybody did um right up until seventies, at which point
it did fragment and uh and become hybrids after that. Um.
But but you kind of kind of you tended to

(50:16):
like everything. I mean, there any moments where yeah, you know,
it might have a Beatles versus Stones discussion or um,
you know, Jeff Beck group versus led Zeppelin discussion you know,
later on. Uh, but you tended to kind of like everything.
I mean, those those those who's better than who we
were kind of phony arguments to begin with. Okay, you

(50:39):
bring up a couple of things. Who's the best guitarist
to ever according to you? Well, there's two, Uh, there's
sort of two errors of guitar. Uh. There's the sixties era,
which there's no doubt about. I don't think anybody would
disagree that Jimi Hendrix was the greatest guitar player that

(51:01):
ever lived. Um, the sixties guy that ended up still
blowing minds is Jeff Beck. Now you go see Jeff
Beck right now, and he will blow your mind right now,
you know, And and and and never Clapton will say
the same thing, and Jimmy Page will say the same thing.
Last time I saw Jeff back, Jimmy Page was standing

(51:22):
next to me and just as awestruck as I was,
you know. But they all pay homage to Jimi Hendrix.
He just was from another planet, you know. And then
then there's a whole second era of modern guitar styles
coming from the Eddie van Halen, you know, hammering. It's
a whole different, whole different style which I never got into.

(51:44):
But there's a whole there's dozens of modern show called
the modern arrow guitar players that are you know, Steve
I and those guys that are remarkable technically, just just
beyond belief technically. But that's a whole different style that
I never, I never got into. So it was for me,
it was just the four amount rushmore pretty much was

(52:06):
was was was clapped in uh back Page and Hendrix
and and and in a very special place in my
heart for Mike Bloomfield, who was important to me, you know,
Paul Butterfield's guitar player and later form the Electric Flag. Um,
but he Uh, but you know those are guys, you know,

(52:27):
for for me. Okay, favorite Beatles album, Favorite Stones album.
You know that changes every day, Um, no, no doubt
about it. The most important Beatles album obviously was Sergeant
Pepper's only last club band, which, Uh, I don't care
how much revisionism there goes on. Yes, Revolver it was
more innovative. Revolver has better songs song by song, Yes,

(52:51):
we all agree with that. But Sergeant Pepper was the
most important cultural moment that I can remember. Uh, every
every story walked down the street that wherever it was
June one, sixty seven, every single store was playing it,
you know, every restaurant, every clothing story. You know, this

(53:11):
is an amazing, amazing moment when all of Western culture
was celebrating the same, the same piece of work. Um. Favorite,
you know, my favorite Beatles album probably it's probably Helped Um. Um,
that's my favorite. Seven seven Beatles songs in a row. Uh.

(53:35):
But Harriday's Night was terrific. Beatles for Sale, terrific, you
know they I like the I like the early stuff.
You know, I liked it from pretty much those you know,
from Hortidays night beals for sale. Help. I love that
period the most Stones, Uh for me, twelve by five

(53:58):
two of my favorite Stones albums don't exist in England,
which is twelve by five and uh December children. Um
that's why you know, we we we used the American
Stones albums as the real thing, and of course the
British Beatles albums as as the real configurations. You know. Um,

(54:19):
but you know the record company actually did the did
the right thing with Stones, uh, twelve by five for me,
you know, and then then you have the second Stones,
the second great Stones evera of course is the four
remarkable you know, Beggar's Banquet, Let it Bleed, sticky Fingers
and Exile. You know, you know, the two errors are
are both amazing to me. But I but I actually

(54:43):
I enjoyed the early stuff. I love I love the covers.
I love the covers, you know, Beatles and Stones, you know,
I think that's a real true measurement of greatness. And
and usually it's the it's the guys who went up
go on to write the best songs, just do the
best cover version, and uh, I have a great respect

(55:04):
for cover versions, and I think it's an extremely important
part of rock education that many many people are skipping
these days. I think two best covers who by those
two bands? No, No, two best covers period. Oh jeez,
that's the whole get the whole radio show on that.

(55:26):
Um well there's you know. I I in the book,
I talked about the various rules for how to make
a cover song on your own and the one the
one that the one to check all the boxes? Uh
as the middle of Fudge you keep me hanging on,
but certainly close to that is you know, Jimmy Hendricks

(55:47):
so along to watch Tower, you know, one of the greatest.
And Joe Cocker is a little health with my friends. Um,
those three I think probably stand out as three and
three the greatest. Let's go look. Decade later, Soft Cell
read does Tainted Love and matches it with where Did
Our Love Go? And I did not know the original

(56:09):
Tainted Love? Did you? And what do you think of
those two songs put together by Soft Cell? No? I
I didn't know it either. Um um, I wasn't really
into them that whole uh you know whatever that was
called the New wave. I wasn't a big new waiver,
so I didn't like the whole synthesizer MTV thing. You know. Um,

(56:35):
they make an exception or two to the rule, but
they weren't it. Okay. So one thing you say in
the book, which blows my mind because I use it
all the time, is we lived through the Renaissance, okay.
And I tell people today when people say, oh, music
today is just as good as it ever was, they said, no,
we lived through the Renaissance. They had a Renaissance and

(56:57):
painting and sculpture in England. They've been painting and sculptor since.
But there was only one Renaissance. Okay. But in your
book I get the impression. Well, let me just ask
you straight. The Renaissance starts with the Beatles. When does
it end? It's a good question, um, and arguably, uh,

(57:20):
you could you could clock it. I mean, the full
Naissance and Renaissance was you know, about twenty years, you know,
fifty one to about seventy one. But you can go
into the mid seventies if you you know, and I
wouldn't argue too much about that, especially if you're including
other arts. You know, if you're including movies, um and
other you know other other other, you know, other important books,

(57:45):
film paintings. You know, you may want to go into
the seventies. The high the high point would be this
sixty four to seventy one, seventy two from you know
the Beatles to um either Exile on Main Street or
or or the who uh what's it called? Who's Next?

(58:07):
With the Who's Next is in seventy one, Quadraphenia in
seventy three. Yeah, I see, you want to you want
to include that, so you know, somewhere in there, somewhere
in there, you know, um different than the rock era,
which I clocked from like a rolling stone, the Kirt
Coby's death almost exactly thirty years. But the renaissance for

(58:30):
for for me was was that. Yeah, sixties into the
into the seventies. Okay. Conventional wisdom is rock is dead.
What do you think about that? Well, I think that's
true in the industry sense of the word. However, we're
still the biggest thing live and I think that that

(58:53):
will continue to be true. It's a very important part
of of the of the rock art form is live performance.
It's uh, unlike any other art form in that sense.
I think and we still remain I think, the biggest
thing live and always will at least while while our

(59:14):
generation is still going. Uh, we're not being replaced, unfortunately.
But I'm trying to make up for that with my
radio format and my music education program and and my
record company and everything else I've been doing. For the
last twenty five years, I've been trying to trying to
preserve this endangered species called rock. Um. But it's it's

(59:37):
it's it's not part of the industry anymore. I mean,
they don't, you know, and I really piste off that
they don't even bother to broadcasted on the Grammys anymore.
It's it's it's really really uh enraging. You know, when
we ran the world. You know, when rock ran the world,
we included everybody, you know, we didn't pick them off

(01:00:00):
the telecast and say, by the way, the Rock Awards
went to so and so. You know, I mean, you know,
it's it's this that's really wrong. But but anyway, that's
just an example of how how dead it is. They
don't even bother showing them under Grammys anymore. Um. And
you know, the last time with rock and roll song

(01:00:21):
gonna in top forty I don't even remember. You know,
there's no more hit singles that are that are rocking. Okay,
let's talk about rock, because there is rock and there's
the active rock format. I have a theory about this.
I remember when led Zeppelin was considered heavy metal and
Black Sabbath was too far out. Now after Black I

(01:00:45):
forget the number of years, but in terms of sound,
from Black Sabbath you go to Metallica, and then from
metalli you can go even further off, such that if
you want to listen to what they call active rock,
you have to have an education encyclopedia to get that far,
because it's not really the year appealing from the beginning,
whereas we grew up in in her Of course, the
Beatles are definitive. They all had good voices, They wrote

(01:01:08):
songs with melodies, they had choruses, their bridges. Is this
just a lost art like the Mayans. Couldn't we just
put that together and have hit songs again? I think, truthfully,
I think all that went to Nashville, you know it
kind of it still exists there, right, I mean, you know,

(01:01:31):
I gotta I got a second format on serious satellite
called well Country, and that resembles the old rock world
more than the modern rock world resembles the old rock world.
I think, you know, I think all that went to
went the country music. Uh, you know, so I'm glad

(01:01:52):
it exists somewhere. But other than that, yeah, it's a
it's a very different Uh, it's a very different pop
war now. And uh and uh, I'm not sure there
is a rock world really, you know. Yeah, there's a
heavy a heart, the hard stuff. Yeah, the hard stuff
still exists, but they they've gotten that's become almost an

(01:02:13):
intellectual part of the art form, you know, in a
funny way. Uh. My friend, uh, my friend Max Weinberg's
son Jay wasn't one of those bands. And and uh
and then early and one of his early heavy metal bands.
I went to see them and and and it was

(01:02:34):
extraordinarily complex. I mean it was it was like Bebop
times on steroids. I mean, very complex musically, a very
high level of of of technical proficiency. They go all
over the place, and they all stopped together. And I

(01:02:55):
was like, how did they possibly stopped together at that moment?
I can't, I couldn't. I couldn't understand it. I couldn't
analyze it. It was so complicated, you know, so it's
become almost uh an intellectual uh you know, in a
funny way, an intellectual pursuit. You know, it appeals to

(01:03:16):
an intellect as much as the venting of frustration, which
is how we mostly associate with with with hard rock.
There's something there's a whole another level of technical uh
you know, expertise going on with that, with that world.
But I don't, you know, I don't of course I
don't relate to it directly. But you know, those rooms

(01:03:38):
for everybody, and you know, God blessed. But but uh,
you know, but as far as the stuff that we
grew up with, you know, you gotta, you gotta, you
gotta listen to my radio station if you want to
hear that. Okay, was it in your book where you
pooh pooed Americana? Um? No um they started. I think

(01:04:01):
that that format started um trying to copy an idea
I had. I didn't really, I didn't put it down.
It's it's it's fine. But I was discussing what became
out Wall Country with somebody in Nashville who had a
discussion with the guy who started Americana. It was very

(01:04:26):
either extraordinarily coincidental or I think it came from that discussion.
And he didn't do exactly my format. He didn't do this,
He didn't do the format exactly as I described it.
But it was closed, and so I didn't. I don't
think I put it down, you know. Okay, you know
I read so much as I said. It wasn't abviously sure, Okay.

(01:04:47):
One of the times I saw Tom Petty before he died,
he played a week at the fond Uh and he
played I won a couple of nights. They played different
songs and he played an old country song he called
country music today rock of the seventies. Okay. Now, on
one hand, we have those people. Another hand, the most

(01:05:09):
respected artist in Nashville is Chris Stapleton, who is great
on Eddie front. So do you pay attention to that scene?
Do you have thoughts about that scene? Yeah? They You know,
I don't. I don't pay as much attention as I
should because it is it is one of my formats.
But we we championed the new artists, just like we

(01:05:31):
do on the rock side. And so I think there
was a very very healthy scene there and and uh
and I agree, and I like I we talked about
this in a minute ago. I think I think most
of what you were describing as as melodic, interesting chord
changes and melodies and and and artists expressing themselves now

(01:05:54):
lives in country music and initial you know, the you
know Staple or the Jason Is Bells and whoever else
you know, the uh they you know, and and I
think that's that's a healthy thing, you know. We you know,
the outlaw country format is all three generations of Hank Williams,

(01:06:15):
you know, because uh, you know, once once, uh, a
friend of mine told me that they weren't playing Johnny
Cash in country radio anymore. I'm like, well, then it's
time for a new format. I'm sorry. You know. That's
one of the reasons why I started it, to make
sure that were you aware of country music in that period? Yeah, yeah, um,

(01:06:35):
you know, not again not living it, but aware of it,
you know. And uh, and I just I liked a
lot of that generation, you know. I like Merl Haggard,
you know, in spite of his you know, yeah, and
me being a hippie, you know exactly. I love Johnny

(01:06:56):
Cash and and uh, you know, and and a back
way back to Hank Williams and and uh and uh
you know the Outlaws, you know, Christis Stofferson and Willan
and Willie Jennings. You know. Uh I like that generation
a lot. They just uh there was just something cool
about them. Okay, So Crossby Stools and Nash comes out

(01:07:17):
in sixty nine, we have the Eagles. In seventy two,
we have Sweetheart of the Rodeo and sixty eight. Was
that a sound that appealed to you not? Oh yeah, definitely.
We Well, like I said, we were, we were. We
were following the trends in those days. And I think,
and I say we, I think that's true about everybody.
We were all following those trends. And uh, country rock,

(01:07:40):
Um it was big man, I was. I was. You know,
I'm still huge fan of Young Bloods, Buffalo Springfield, Uh Birds,
Find Burrito Brothers. Uh, we'll be great. You know these
are country. This is country music for you know, country rock,

(01:08:02):
and uh yeah, I'm a big, big fan of it. Yes, Okay,
So let's talk about turning this decade sixties and seventies.
You're out of high school, You're playing what do I know,
like everybody else, I had a guitar, I had played
I'm to my friend Mark's house. We're playing our guitars
because now we're going to change keys, and I said,
I'm out. You know, did you ever what has it

(01:08:27):
always been hard work for you? Or did you ever
fall in this side and say, wait a second, this
is my groove. I can do this. I live here.
I'm as good as anybody, I think. You know, you're
always you're always kind of improving, you know, I don't
know if I ever. I mean, once you start writing

(01:08:49):
your own shows, you know, your your own records, in
your own shows, obviously it's got to be. It's a
it's a comfort zone because you've created it, you know. Um.
But other than other than that, you're always they're always
I don't know, learning looking to improve. Right, does anybody

(01:09:10):
intimidate you a musician just in terms of how good
they are? Um? Oh, man, there's a there's a whole
you know, kar Yeah, yeah, uh, you know. I mean,
it's glorious. It's just a glorious thing to witness a
great greatness in any form. You know, I'm I'm attractive

(01:09:32):
to greatness in anything. I agree with you. It's like
when you have a great sport, guy, great guy on
any of the dominance and to see them walk that
line Louis Hamilton and car racing the guy on Jeopardy.
So one of the big points in the book. And

(01:09:54):
you really describe it well, the whole period that Bruce
gets a record deal and said, you know, I guess
it with John Hammond and they think it's a folk record.
I remember for a long time the second album was
my favorite. Second Bruce Wilde The Innocent, Okay, especially this.
I saw him in the bottom line the year before
and seventy three, I mean seventy four, the year before, uh,

(01:10:14):
the born to run shows. But you say a couple
of things. You say he was sold sold to John
Hammond as a folk act, and certainly on that record
the band is mixed way down. But I realized the
book is about you. But hey, were you very conscious
of Bruce trying to get a deal record deal of

(01:10:36):
the Stravails And tell me exactly how you felt when
you were left out in the initial recording situation. Um,
I wasn't. Uh, I wasn't following it day day to day.
But but we were very very conscious of trying to
get a record deal. That's where you that's you know,
that was the whole idea to get into the business. Uh. Um.

(01:11:00):
And and we were, you know, we had a different
band every three months, uh, you know, in that late sixties.
And at some point we realized, no matter what we did,
nobody's coming down from New York to discover us. And
add great Park, I mean, even though it's only an
hour and hour and a half away, might as well
being I've been on the moon. So Bruce, being you know, smart,

(01:11:24):
I saw the singer songwriter trend coming. It was happening
at that moment, which was the beginning of the fragmentation
at that point, you know, like I said, it was
it went from singer songwriter on the left to heavy
metal on the right, everything in between, um, singer songwriters.

(01:11:45):
Interestingly enough, when I analyzed it, you know, I realized
the difference between them and folk singers, you know, um,
which is pretty much semantics. But but but but the
interesting thing additionally was all the singer songwriters had hit
you know, which was not the case with all the
folks that you know. Uh. And I that struck me

(01:12:08):
when I realized that. But anyway, Bruce kind of gets
in the trojan horse of singer songwriters, and then immediately,
you know, pisses everybody off by saying, I don't want
to make an acoustic record, you know, I want to
I want to do a band record. And John Hammond
was not happy about that. His managers were not happy
about that, nobody and so, um, we didn't have an

(01:12:33):
existing band exactly at that moment. So he just kind
of started drawing in guys from different bands and we
played with and of course I was one of them,
and I turned out to be just you know, one
guitar player too many. I mean, they weren't happy about
having a band at all, and they certainly didn't see
any need for a second guitar. So I was rejected.

(01:12:57):
And and uh, I guess it hit me pretty hard.
I was, you know, pretty disappointed about it. Uh. And
I kind of at that point I felt we had
missed the boat anyway, I really did. I felt like
the great stuff has all been done, you know, it's

(01:13:17):
it's it's it's kind of over. And I wasn't that
far wrong, by the way, but uh, you know, it
just kind of felt like, you know, it's redundant from
now on. And so I wasn't I wasn't you know
too too depressed about it? But it was it was.
It was depressing and disappointing, and I quit. I quit

(01:13:38):
the business at that point, and we're construction for two years. Okay,
to what degree are those two things connected? Was the
fact that you weren't included in the band? Was that
really what drove you to go to construction? Yeah? Because
I was in debt from a previous couple of bands.

(01:13:59):
We were, and we thought we were gonna be big,
and I bought a big amp uh and a van
to carry it around in, you know, because I thought
we were gonna that was our big break, you know,
a couple of bands earlier. So I was in debt
and had to pay, you know how to get a
straight job the first time in my life. How much
did you hate it? Well? I I hated it, um,

(01:14:22):
but I but I started my mind immediately began to
adjust to uh, accepting this as you know, this is it, man,
this is this is your life now, so adjust to it.
And that was pretty good at doing that, I guess, um.

(01:14:44):
But after two seasons going from you know, uh flagman
on on on through two seven at six in the morning,
and you know, five degree weather, go all the way
to the jackhammer in a hot ninety degree summer. Um.

(01:15:08):
I was playing football on the weekends and and uh,
flag football, and I broke my finger, still bent and
uh and to exercise my finger, I couldn't work anymore.
I couldn't pick up a jackhammer. So I went to
exercise my finger by joining the band playing piano. Uh.
And that's how I got back into music, just by

(01:15:28):
just by that weird circumstance, which is a story of
my life. I mean weird circumstances definitely the story of
my life, as you see in the book. And I
got back anyway, So I you know, I I appreciated
show business a lot more after working instruction than I
did before. Let's put it that way, Okay. In the book,

(01:15:51):
you ultimately go to Vegas, you go to Miami, you're
working with Oldiezacs, and there's a lot of sex talk
at this way, you know, and then you talk about
going down south below the Mason Dixon line and having girls. Whatever.
Were these things that the older musicians taught you being

(01:16:13):
on the road or how did this develop? Well, it
was just I wanted to give a little bit of
flavor of that of that era, you know, and the
seventies was just uh wide open. I mean, uh, you
know this is before aids and uh and and and
post women's liberation. I mean this was real women's liberation,

(01:16:37):
like they would come and ask you for sex liberation,
and uh, I want to give people a little bit
of a flavor of that. I don't think. I don't
think I overdid anything. I overdid it whatsoever. You are
realistic and nobody is ever realistic. I want to hear.
We have the heavy metal bands where you know it's

(01:16:57):
happening seven, you know, then we have Linda Ronstad's book
that's so sanitized it's like it's unreadable. Okay, So I
was surprised that you were honest about it, and you
know that was why it's good. I mean, there are
certain people who are uh you know, Elvis iconic, looking

(01:17:19):
in their stars whatever, and one knows it goes with
the territory there. I mean, I know, listen, I know
these people don't know. You go on the road with
these people, there's always somebody much more experienced than you
are who teaches you the ways of the road and
what goes on and kind of coaches you along and
then you ultimately pass these lessons down to the level.

(01:17:41):
But if you're not a member that group, you have
no idea. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. And you know,
so you got some of that on on the oldies circuit. Uh,
these are the needs of the guys who admited it, Okay,
exactly mean it doesn't invent rock and roll. Uh. And

(01:18:04):
that was and that was just fun, man, I gotta
tell you the truth. You know, I was the only
one having fun there because they all hated being called oldies.
They put out the past there in the primary lives. Okay,
these guys are you know, late thirties, early forties. If
they had four hits when the Beatles hit, they did

(01:18:24):
those four hits the rest of their life, you know.
And it was just tragic. One of the just odd
odd phenomena of our of the history of rock and roll.
That first generation who invented it got put out the
pasture and and and did not have a chance to evolve,
uh with an audience the way every other generation did,

(01:18:47):
starting with the second generation of British invasion. You know,
who are the biggest acts and sixty four the Beatles
and Stones who the biggest acts now the Beatles and Stones,
you know, as there should be, because as they evolved,
the audience evolved with them. Uh some reason that first
generation just kind of got left out. And uh, and

(01:19:08):
that's why one of the reasons why the minute I
got in the studio, I started bringing them back, you know,
out of just out of gratitude and and and wanted
to show people that they're still great. Got Ronny Specter
and Lee Dorsey out of retirement, Second Duke's album, We
United the Coasters, Drifters and five Staturns, you know, um

(01:19:29):
uh me and Bruce, Gary West Bonds, put Benny King
and Chuck Jackson on that record. And uh, and of
course I worked with Ronny Specter and just did Darlene
Love album you know, some years a few years ago. Um.
You know, at first of all, it's great to work
with those people. They're different, There are different species of people.
These were talented people, the real talent, you know, not tuning,

(01:19:53):
the vocal talent, not editing or the vocal together talent.
They had it right, got it right the first time
every time. You know, They're a real thing. And so
they were a joy to produce. But anyway, I was
the only one. I'm really having a good time on
that on the on that meeting, meeting all of those guys,

(01:20:14):
and uh, it's a shame the way that worked out. Okay,
so you all do we come back to Asbury Park.
You formed the Jukes. First question, tell me how you
played Monopoly during the set? That was? That was a
different band. That's Dr Zoom in the Sonic Moom at
a certain point, like I said, we had a different

(01:20:34):
band every three months before the Jukes. This is quite
a bit before the Jukes. Um, this is more and
more like the early seventies. Uh. We became the go
to opening act at our local Hullabalu club, uh Hullablue
coming from the PV show. Um. And we didn't really

(01:20:56):
have a band at that time, and we you know,
we just kind of floundering around. So we decided to
put everybody in town in the band so to get
a paycheck of some kind. And that include people who
didn't play instruments, so we hadn't play monopoly. We haven't
play monopoly. Instead and they got there whatever ten bucks

(01:21:20):
or whatever whatever whoever it was. Uh, Okay, how come
when the pop gives you a deal for the Jukes,
And how come you just don't stay with the Jukes?
You tell the story of the book, how you tell
Johnny he's got to be the front man. Why don't
you say this is my thing, let me ride this
all the way. Yeah, it's a it's a it's a

(01:21:43):
good question. It's a good question. Um. I don't know.
I felt it was limited in some ways. You know.
Johnny was great in his own way and had surprised
everybody by being as great as he was. Uh, you know,
he just really really rose to the occasion, you know.

(01:22:07):
But he wasn't Rod Stewart, you know, let's face it, anyway,
he wasn't you know, Stevie Tyler or you know, Roger Daltrey. Uh,
you know, he didn't. He wasn't he was. He was
like a blues you know, blues guy and great in
that particular sub genre. Um. But but that there's built

(01:22:31):
in limitations to that. And I and I wasn't ready
to be limited. I wanted to go all the way,
you know. And so the horse side bet on was
was Bruce Springsteen because I felt he was the one guy,
the local, one local guy that could go all the way,
and I just, um, I felt that about you know,

(01:22:52):
we were friends a long time and uh, and that
was probably the first one to think that about him,
because he was extremely shy and uh, and nobody predicted
him to be a success. But I saw something special
in him very early that nobody else particularly saw. Um.

(01:23:16):
But by that point of course, it had come kind
of a roller coaster ey because he he was the
first guy signed in our town, but his first two
records were complete failures. He was about to be the
first guy dropped in our town. Uh, you know, so, um,

(01:23:37):
it wasn't it wasn't that final a decision. It wasn't
like I'm leaving the Jukes and joining the East paying
for the rest of my life. He only had seven
gigs books, so I thought, you know, the seven gigs
and probably come back to the Jukes and then let's
see what we can do. You know. UH may have

(01:23:58):
recorded the first album by then, but that's it's about it.
So I would really start to uh become a much
better songwriter, and on their second and third albums, Uh,
so so they're they're future artistically wasn't really clear at
that point. I just was using them to learn the
craft of a record production because I really felt like

(01:24:21):
I was a record producer and I wanted to learn
how to do it. You know. Okay, another thing you
talk about throughout the book is writing songs. How do
you write a song? Well? I think what I tell
people now, you know, and I do these masterclasses on songwriting,
and you know, I try to say, the first of all,

(01:24:41):
there's no rules. Okay, so let's keep that in mind.
But I said, you know, the thing you want to
try and overcome is is being stuck. You want you
want to try and be want to have some momentum,
and you want to try and be moving forward whether
whatever you're doing, all right, you don't want to be
sitting there staring at a blank piece of paper if

(01:25:02):
you can help it, you know, waiting for your muse,
you know, to to visit. Uh. You know, now this
may be just me and my A D D. Which,
as I say, I've had long before it was fashionable.
So you know, I don't have any patience. So so
so um I tell people, you know, first of all, right,

(01:25:23):
with purpose. You should also live with purpose, by the way,
but but certainly you should write with purpose. What do
you want the song to do. You know, Uh, you
want to make people cry and make them last and
make them dance. Uh, you gonna have a hit record.
You want to confess your sins, you know, decide what

(01:25:44):
what do you want to the stone to do? Uh?
You know, um, and then you know you can work
out how how literally you want it to be. Uh,
but right right down some reference lyrics saying exactly what
you want to say. Don't worry about being poetic, don't
worry about being cleverly metaphorical at first. Just write it

(01:26:06):
straight out, and then you can go back and you
can add all those things you want to disguise it.
You want to, you know, make it more poetic, whatever
you want to do, make it more artistically interesting. You
can do that later. But the idea is to get
some momentum going come up with a purpose right out.
What that purpose is is clearly as as as you

(01:26:27):
can you know. UM. And the other thing I use
also and I teach it and I and I use
it myself and I used it very much on my
latest album, Summer Sorcery. Uh is you're stuck. You're writing
a song for yourself right one for somebody else. Um,
it's A. It's a it's the best way to to

(01:26:47):
break that break up that you know, that log jam,
you know, uh, because it's always more difficult to see yourself. Um,
you know, you want to write a write a beach
boy song, you know, write a song you can you
can see the beach boys doing it. Write a wrong
Stone song, or you know, whenever your favorite artist is
write and write a door song. You know. You know

(01:27:09):
now when you do that, um, you're not really gonna
be impersonating them most likely. Uh so it's gonna come
out you. It's gonna end up being you. But it's
just so it's just a way of getting some momentum going,
because that's the hardest thing when it comes to writing.
And once in a while you get a great melloy

(01:27:30):
you'll come into your head, or a phrase. You'll catch
a phrase in a book or somebody's saying something. You know,
and I and I and I keep notes. I mean,
the reason why Summer Sorcery was was such a miracle
was my radar had been down for thirty years. So
before that, in the eighties, when you're in that cycle,

(01:27:51):
you know, record tour, record to our record to a
record tour Um, you're always your radar is always up.
You're always making little notes, you know, a little melodies things.
You know, you record the little bits of melody that
come to you, or a chord change. You know, you
record it. Words you know you'll jot down, you know somewhere. Uh, phrases,

(01:28:13):
you always looking for. Titles are always important. The most
important things to title, you know. The second most important
thing is a chorus. Very most important thing is the
opening line. You know. So you're always looking for those.
The rest right itself. Um, and you're you know, uh,
and you're always compiling all these notes, and then when
you go to make a record, you have all this

(01:28:33):
stuff you can then you can, you know, put it
all together. I got to make summar sorcery. I have
none of that. There's no notes, you know, there's no
not one bit of melody recorded anywhere, or not one
single phrase. You know. That's why it was such a
remarkable miracle that records happened. But but I did, But

(01:28:56):
I did. Right there, I sat down said, okay, so
I'm gonna make a new record. Um, first of all,
I wanted to be a new idea. I don't I
don't want it to be order biographical, because all my
records are autobiographical. And I don't want it to be
political alright, because there's no reason to be political during
the Trump years. It's completely redundant. So so I said,

(01:29:18):
I'm just gonna write ten or twilve little fictional movies,
be a different guy in each, and have some fun
and I and I said, you know, so, who who
do I want to represented on this record? And I
wrote down a list. I wanted to fly in the
family stone because that's how I'm picturing my new disciples,
the soul in that, in that sort of uh you
know frame. I want some Sam Cooke, I want some

(01:29:42):
Tito Quente, you know, I want from James Brown, and uh,
you know, I'm may a list and there and and
then and then I wrote the songs, and uh and none.
None of those songs sound like those people exactly. They
sound like me. And that's how it works, man. You know,

(01:30:02):
how about collaboration, believe it or not believing it? Well,
I you know, I love the idea of it, um,
but I never figured out how to do it. I could.
All my collaborations, uh, you know, usually somebody's riff, you know,
Bruce Bruce. Bruce came up with a riff on a
love on the wrong side of town, you know John

(01:30:26):
John John Johnnah Johannah and I wrote the rest. You
know what I mean, like, give me, give me a
piece of a song and then I'll finish it. You know.
But two guys in the same room writing, I don't
I don't know how to do that, and I and
I envy it, you know, I'd like to do that.
I'd like to be in that, you know, winning in

(01:30:47):
McCartney mode when they started, you know, Mick and Keith
when they started UM or any of the any of
the great songwriting teams, you know, Lieber and Stoller, you
know Barry Greenwich, you know a lot of great ones. Okay,
let's do so. Ultimately, Gary Gersh tracks you down. You
make these records for E M I America. Commercially, they

(01:31:13):
are not successful. You talk in the book about the
label not taking advantage of television appearance in Europe, based
in Germany, etcetera. What was your internal experience, Hey, did
you feel an obligation to try to have hits for
them or you thought you were doing the right thing
and the label wasn't coming through for you. What was

(01:31:34):
your experience there? Yeah, I really, uh, I like those
records and I went back and really really re examined
them writing this book. Um, I really believe it was
a case of having no manager to to be that advocate.

(01:31:57):
And my records were not actually the most commercial and
the most uh the songs that really fit in necessarily,
so it would have been difficult no matter who it was. Um,
they were just the way I heard them. You know,
my records are completely uncompromising. Um. And I don't know

(01:32:18):
where that comes from. I don't know why. I mean,
I grew up with pop music, you know, and I
love pop music and I love sixties pop music. Um,
but I just I was off on some artistic trip
that I I just couldn't resist because it felt like
I was justifying my existence. You know. It wasn't enough

(01:32:40):
to have pop hits in my mind, even if I
could have done that. Um, they needed to be hits
with substance. I just I had that need to to
to communicate substance. I don't know why, but I did,
and and and and the songs. You know, we're not uncommercial.
You know, when you'll go back and look at you know,
out of the darkness or or bitter fruit or or

(01:33:03):
or you know, uh whatever, they were not they were
not you know, they're not jazz. You know they're they're
not They're not you know, something difficult to comprehend. Um.
And so you know, I think it would have needed
some an advocate to to to really to really help

(01:33:23):
promote promote the stuff at the time. I think with
the manager, I think I would have stayed in Europe
at that moment and broken through. We played the sixteen
countries and and blew to boot, blew the house down,
and and and you know, like I said, a group
that was not nearly as good state and broke to

(01:33:44):
in Europe. That might have been my breakthrough moment. Who knows,
I don't know, Um, I don't know. I I think
lack of management was a big factor. I think my
own lack of lack of of making it a priority
was probably a factor. I I did not see having

(01:34:06):
having a hit single at that point being a priority
to me, and I should have. I should have. Man,
I made sure bru spraising and a hit record. I'll
tell you that because we needed it. We needed on
that that fifth album that you know that was the
last chance. Man. We needed it, and just to stop
at that point for a second, it was fascinating to

(01:34:29):
get your viewpoint on that. I know there's a big
economic component on the other side of the stage, but
from the audience, if you had been there before, everybody
came aboard on board to run. Certain people came aboard
on board run Darkness was a return. It was a

(01:34:51):
gift to the people who had always been there. And
in addition, amongst fans in Los Angeles, you played the Rock,
they played the Roxy. There were boo legs, I own
the bootleg, et cetera. So the fact that you felt
on the inside that you needed Hungry Heart and you
needed to put it over the top. My feeling the
vibe in l A was Bruce and the Eastree being

(01:35:15):
were part of the firmament, well being a part of
the firmament, part of the FIRMAMENTI of the Roxy. That
wasn't underplay. I mean that was a radio show or
even the palladium. What was the intermediate? Uh, I'm pretty
sure on the Darkness tour Bruce played the Forum. Now

(01:35:36):
granted that's l A. Well maybe and maybe, but it
wasn't it wasn't full. If we did, it wasn't full. Okay.
So and yes, and that was l a you know,
you go to Kansas, you know. Uh, we were struggling,
believing me, believe me, we were struggling. We were in

(01:35:56):
some ways less popular. I mean, to run made a
lot of noise that that particular song. People think it
was a hit. It wasn't really a hit, but but
certainly yeah, and it got more airplay than anything on
Darkness Darkness absolutely, you know. So we were kind of,
you know, in some ways on a on a on

(01:36:18):
a down slide, kind of um saved by Frank Barcelona,
who kept us going regardless, and it just felt like
we need we need to get over his hump here,
you know. So I think that single came wrong with
throw at the right time. Okay, let's jump forward for you.
When did you realize the Sopranos was the Sopranos um

(01:36:44):
About three weeks after it was on Um. Uh, suddenly
everybody is stopping me on the street. Uh, and then
they don't want to discuss rock and roll anymore. And
I had been a you know, a so called rock
star at that point twenty five years. Just to show

(01:37:07):
the power of TV three weeks. Forget those twenty five
years and they're they're gone. I'm telling you know, and
and I and I did not. I was not not
easily recognized. You know, I looked pretty different in the show.
You know, I think you fish you may see it
that way? People knew you were in the show. Yeah,

(01:37:29):
you think, Oh, I know, there was you know, that
was one of the big stories. Not everybody walking down
the street in New York City is gonna know you're
in these three be gonna know who you are anyway,
But if you were a music fan and you were
watching that show, you knew it was you. Alright, alright,
But to my mind, I looked pretty damn different. But
but anyway, it didn't matter because everybody is stopping me.

(01:37:52):
And I said, man, this show, We're onto something because
it was it. This wasn't that obvious League commercial. Okay,
I mean the pilot, uh was was downright weird? You know.
Extent is the pilot the first episode, Yes, yes, I
mean a mob boss has ducks flying to with pool,

(01:38:15):
they fly away, he has a nervous breakdown. That the
makings of a hit show, you know, And then and
and David Chase, no compromise, this is gonna be his
last show. He didn't care, all right, he'd been he'd
been a good TV soldier his whole life since Rockford's Files,
you know, like what early seventies or something. Um, and

(01:38:37):
and and he's ready to go onto movies and he's
just gonna break every rule in the book. He just
doesn't care anymore. So so so um, he has no
The Lightning is like practically should have a very tay
you know, it's practically a documentary. And the camera doesn't
move at all, no seductive camera moves. Uh. Uh. I

(01:39:00):
had to talk him in adding like four songs to
the pilot because there was there was no music. It
was just like it was the most uncompromising and too
many characters, you know, no stars. A couple of people
might have known me, and a couple of people knew
well then new Lorraine from good Fellas, But here she

(01:39:20):
is doing the opposite roles from good Fellas, you know. Uh.
And that's it. So, I mean, every rule was it
was being broken. Uh. And I thought, you know, I
thought it was gonna take at least one season for
people to kind of get used to the idea of it,
because it was pretty bizarre, you know, no two or

(01:39:42):
three weeks boom, I mean it was, it was on
and uh it just kept building from there. How did
the Alabama three songs get chosen? They David chose all
all the music. Uh, I don't watch so much. Sure
who who turned him onto that? I never asked him? Uh,

(01:40:05):
but he but he you know, he had a guy
that did some music supervision for him. But but mostly
he liked That's the thing he liked doing most. He
liked doing the music more than anything. Okay, the landscape
is littered with hit shows to get worse every season. Okay,
so you're doing the show now, there was a delight

(01:40:27):
he first you wanted to yearly schedule and then they
you know, for script real, I'm on the outside script resil.
To what degree was their pressure and to what degree
did you feel the attention? Now as the show started
to play out, well, okay, the pressure was on David
Chase and uh after the first season, Uh, he was

(01:40:54):
a little bit stuck because in his mind it was
just the third teen part movie and and and the
movie in his head was you know, mother was to
kill kill her own son. And uh, you know, and

(01:41:19):
so he was kind of he wasn't really sure what
to do after the first season. Uh, but we did.
We did a second season, right according according to the schedule,
I think, you know. And then we were at the
Rath party for the second season and at that point,

(01:41:41):
you know, we're doing really really well and uh and
and and everybody's kind of celebrating, and David Jason's looked
completely wasted, you know, just really drained. And I said, damn,
you know, you know, come on, you gotta have some
fun here, man. And he's like, I got, I got
like whatever it is, three or four more months of

(01:42:02):
post production and then it's like maybe a month off
and then I gotta started writing a third season, he says.
And I'm just I'm exhausted. And I said, you know,
I'm thinking myself, h is HBO. You know, I mean,
before we got there, there's a football show and seven right,

(01:42:23):
you know, you know, And I said, Dave, you know
who says you gotta follow that schedule, and you know,
and he had been such a good soldier his whole life,
you know, he said, well, that's the way we've always
done it. I'm like, yeah, So what it's HBO, you know, new,
a new idea. We are so hot right now. What

(01:42:45):
are you gonna do? Fire you? If you say I
want three months off, I want six months or whatever.
When we come back six months later, will the show
have been forgotten and and and go down to drain?
I don't think so, you know, Well they fire you.
I don't think so, you know, I said, fuck then,

(01:43:05):
you know, it's more important to us and to them
that you are in good shape mentally. You know that
you are not exhausted. You you need you need to read,
you know, refuel here man, take take whatever time you
fucking need, you know. And uh and he did and

(01:43:25):
he did, and that changed the entire It changed cable
TV forever because everybody started doing it later, you know,
taking you know, extra time here, you know, coming back
fourteen months later than sixteen months later. But you know,
but it was important at that time that I thought,
you know, this guy is gonna just kill himself here

(01:43:48):
and what good is he gonna be for anybody? And
burned out like that. What are a couple of your
favorite episodes? Well, you know, I never watched the whole
thing from the beginning, but but I watched some of
the first season. Uh, they were doing a marathon and
I and I had seen the you know, the new one,
the new Many Saints, you know, so I kind of

(01:44:10):
put me in that soprano's moods I watched. I watched
the first season and and uh, it's amazing how well
it holds up. Honestly, it's a it's a it's a
pretty unique show. Um. I mean, thinking back, my favorite
scenes were two things. You know what we're working with Jimmy. Um,

(01:44:32):
you know, I just love working with him. Uh. I
remember seeing that you know where I come in. I
gotta I gotta give him bad news and it pisces
them off. And you know, I like that scene a lot.
And then uh, very rare scene with my wife because uh,
mostly of the guys with the guy, the girls with
the girls. And uh we had one scene when when

(01:44:53):
the tony sopranos in the hospital and Sylvia has to
take over and uh, and he's getting dressed and then
she is there, you know a little bit of the
Macbeth thank but it was it was that was that
was are the two scenes to stand out in my mind. Okay,
you talk about your political awakening, being in Europe being

(01:45:13):
asked questions about America, and there are a lot of
vivid scenes about that, democracies in crisis. What do you
think of the political world today and what you or
anybody in the music business or music and anything can
do about it? Well, that's uh, that's a good question. Um.

(01:45:35):
I think we're in big trouble. I think we're in
the biggest trouble, uh, possibly of our history, certainly since
uh eighteen sixty. I think we are very much on
the verge of a second civil war. On he my
dog waking up. We are in a huge trouble right now.
And I keep asking where are the tough good guys.

(01:45:57):
That's uh, because we're in a war and uh and
only one size fighting it. And I felt this way
for a long long time. And arguably this board goes
back to our founding. Um, you don't like it or
not admit it or not, we were founded as a
male dominant, white supremacist, um Christian nationalist oligarchy. That's how

(01:46:24):
we re formed, as what most of our constitution said,
and um, luckily we had a few more enlightened founders
who snuck in there. The liberty injustice for all bits
and pieces that we've been trying to live up to

(01:46:45):
ever since. But at this point Republican Party has completely
returned to that same position. Um, and even even more
anti American and un American than that. You know, they
just have lost all interest in democracy, in uh, in equality,

(01:47:09):
uh and even in science. So it's uh, we become
we've become this this dangerous uh, dangerously close to civil war.
And I see it's not just us, it's it's the
problem is all around the world. I just did two
tours around the world and gets a mess all over

(01:47:30):
the place. You've got a problems from Australia to Indonesia
to Hungary. You know, either it's either it's fascism or
it's religious extremism, and uh we got both going on here.
So so so you know, um, I'm hoping the Democrats

(01:47:50):
wake up. Uh if they're the only game in town,
it's left. But what they're doing to this show Biden,
I mean, you know, you got love the guy and
I root for him every day, but he's not getting
you know, it's been one unforced era after the other.
I mean, just the concept of bi partisanship. It's just uh,

(01:48:13):
a tragic sort of frame of mind when there is
no by by means too, because we don't have to
legitimate political parties anymore. I mean, if people were trying
to make him sound and act like a senile old man,
they couldn't do a better job of it. Okay. Uh,

(01:48:33):
there is no bi partisanship possibility now. Uh, that was
the first unforced Sarah Merrick Garland. I mean really, Uh,
what was don knots not available? You know? I mean
an attorney general. It should be Malcolm Nance, it should
be you know, and people, well, you're not an attorney.

(01:48:54):
I don't, I don't. We don't need an attorney, We
need a general. You know. Uh. Afghanistan an absolute disaster.
I don't care what anybody says. I'll argue this all
day long. Okay. All we had to do was keep Kab,
keep one town. Was they had at least a hundred
fifty thousand soldiers that people are saying three hundred thousand.

(01:49:17):
Let's cut that in half with a hundred fifty thousand
creating an impenetrable perimeter. We could have kept the two
air for the two bases and Kabul and I think
a few more cities as well. Now, where is that accomplished,
That accomplishes the main goal of all of our fun policy,
which should be don't allow anymore Islamic states. All right,

(01:49:40):
there's only four, you know, and and and they are
the epitome. And the ultimate example of human rights violations
by definition, is the problem with Palestine. Right now. I've
been fighting for a Palestine homeland my whole life. I'm
not gonna do it while Hamaz is in charge, forget it,
all right, not gonna happen, man, al Right, I don't

(01:50:03):
believe in human rights violations. And that's what surial law is,
that's what Alamic state is. And we just gave it
to him. Man, And what does that mean? That means
those hundred cats died in Vain, they died for nothing,
just like the fifty died in Vietnam. It's exactly the

(01:50:23):
same thing. Okay, when you when you you know, in
this case, they had a really good reason to die.
If we had kept Afghanistan, you know, at least a
city or two kept it from becoming Islamic state. There's
plan to justify then, just for the women, the women's

(01:50:43):
rights along justifies that, you know, then those hundred died
for good reason. Fighting Islamic extremism. That's something that's that's
a war worth fighting every day of the week, you know,
any religious extremism, but certainly Islamic, you know, I mean,
you know, and instead, you know, we I mean, how

(01:51:06):
could he follow Trump's plan that didn't alarm bells go off?
If you're doing something you Trump suggested? What the hell's
the matter with you? And the incline and all the
guys around them, What were they thinking? You know, Yeah,
let's get out of the forever war? What about the
forever war in Japan and Germany and Korea? What about that?

(01:51:28):
We're there for a reason, and it's a good reason,
you know. It's it's called keeping an eye on things
so we can maintain some freedom and democracy and all
those good things. Man. You know, instead it bandons Afghanistan,
you know, and God knows we're not going to go.

(01:51:49):
It ain't gonna be good. It's one unforced ver after
the other. Cuba is another one. Yeah, follow Trump's plan
on Cuba? What a good idea? You know. Cuban right
wing have been this to me off ever since they
got here. You know, they hate for they hate the
Castro brothers, so much that they want to vote for Trump.
That makes sense. Huh, you know, come on, man, I mean,

(01:52:13):
these people don't give a ship about their own brothers
and sisters in Cuba. That's what pisces be off. You know,
they think a boycott hurts the fucking Castro brothers. What
what planet do you want? You know, the idiots, they're idiots,
you know, And you know, of course we should normalize
relations with Cuba. Of course we should. You know, anyway

(01:52:34):
you want unforced that after the other man, and and
you know, and right now, uh, you know, these two,
these two fucking little life bene Edictonald Twins, Mission and Cinema,
they're gonna kill the Democratic Party and they kill Biden's
presidency and they may be killing democracy. That's how bad

(01:52:54):
things are right now. I mean, twenty states are already
passing laws. Twenty states, all right, they're already passing laws.
Not just voter suppression. That's what everybody talks about. It's
a voter nullification. Everybody needs to learn the word nullification.
That's what's going on. And that means it doesn't matter

(01:53:14):
who we vote for. Suppression can be overcome. It shouldn't exist.
But it should, but it can be overcome like like
you know, Stacy Abels didn't in Georgia, so overcame it.
Nullification is the whole another trip. That means it doesn't
matter who wins. They sort of vote to the garbage
camp and the state legislators decides who wins, which is

(01:53:35):
exactly what Trump was trying to do, you know, last
last election. Well, now what's happening for real? You know,
And I mean we are in big trouble and I
don't see I don't see the good guys rising to
the occasion here. Man. We'll see, we'll see how they
if they go after the subpoenas you know, for January,
the January six to you know, if they actually put

(01:53:58):
these suckers in jail, they're all right, you know, maybe
maybe we got a chance here. But I'll see it.
I mean, look look at the look at the sentences
are getting. Look at the sentences these guys again, you know,
for tresh passing, you know, six months for you know,
violation of some curfew or something. Excis sort of the government. Man,

(01:54:21):
what what kind of sentences these people getting? You know,
I mean it's just you know, you keep play cating
and playcating and playcating, and we've done it all of
our lives. Man, What what other country puts up statues
and names army basis after the cats were trying to
overthrow the government? Only US assholes do that? You known
to play kate, play k play k don't don't want

(01:54:43):
to piss them off too much? You know, then we
try to end America. You only try to overthrow a government.
You know. We don't want to piss them off too much.
I mean, what the fuss are mattering with us? Were
are the tough, good guys? Man? You know that? So
I don't know, man, I don't know what going here,
but it ain't looking good. It ain't looking good, Okay.

(01:55:04):
I thought that once they got rid of abortion there'd
be riots in the street. Leaders to say that didn't happen.
By the same token, we had spontaneous demonstrations around the
world with George Floyd. What will be the trigger to
make those on the left wake up and take action? Well,

(01:55:24):
that's that's a that's a good question, because it should
have happened by now. It doesn't help when all the
anchors on TV use the word abortion instead of equal
women's rights, because that's what we're talking about. We're talking
about women's equal rights. What they do with those rights
is their business, you know. And every time we say

(01:55:48):
that we're abortion abortion, abortion, it's like we like abortion.
Nobody likes abortion. Who likes abortion? Nobody? Okay? And if
you're serious about not liking abortion, there should be a
lot more sex education. We should condoms everywhere for free
and a healthy encouragement of oral sex. If you get

(01:56:09):
rid of abortion, you get rid of rape. So what's
the problem right now? In Texas? A father can rape
his daughter, all right, and then get ten thousand dollars
with the bounty if she goes to she goes and
tries to have an abortion. He can get paid for
rape and his daughter in Texas. Okay. I mean we

(01:56:31):
are insane, man, We're losing our minds. And I wish
I could answer that question bile, because that's the question.
What was it gonna take for these guys to wake up?
I don't know. But Joe Biden, you know, he's living
in the past. Man. I'm sorry. You know, he's a
right guy at the wrong time. And Obama was too.
I hate to say it, you know, as much as

(01:56:52):
I just love the fact that we could elect the
black man in the country this prejudice. I mean, it
was a miracle. But you know again, you know, bringing
a knife to a gunfight. Now he's not even bringing
a knife in his gunfight. He's bringing you know, I
don't know what you know? And I mean it can't

(01:57:13):
go on much longer. I mean two is around the corner. Okay,
you happen to watch Do you watch Bill Maher? Yeah?
Did you watch the new rule last Friday night when
he played it out? I think I was on the
show last Friday, was on the you're on the first segment,
So did you want did you watch what he played

(01:57:36):
it out with the legislatures, etcetera. I had to go
to another event, and it's everything we know. I mean,
you know what's going on. Uh w. They have their
own slate there. You know, they're get they're taking away
the power of the Secretary of State, the people in
charge of you know, it's like it's all obvious that
what's going up now is fighting fighting. The veracity of

(01:57:58):
it is not about getting him back at power. It's
about winning in that's right, and and and and and
and really is all you need they don't even need
twenty four All it is three more votes in the
House and one vote in the Senate and it's over.
Biden becomes you know, Jimmy Carter. Okay, just a couple

(01:58:21):
of things. I'm gonna let you go. So you literally
talked to Bruce every day. What do you talk about?
And how long was that period where you were kind
of on the outs? We um, you know, I I
talked about our three our three big fights of our lives,
and and and we were reconciled pretty quickly, you know,
well from all of them. Uh, we don't we don't

(01:58:44):
leave it out there too long, you know. And I
think that comes from our basic bond, which is, you know,
really pretty solid, coming from when we were kids and
and we were the only other freaking town man, you know.
And you know, if we're the only freak, you know,
maybe there's something all with you. But if it's two
of you, you know, maybe there's hope, and maybe there's

(01:59:04):
gonna be maybe around and something, you know. And I
and we really needed each other at that age, and
I think that really bonded us forever. You know. Um,
So when when we fight or you know, we have disagreement.
They didn't last too long. They really donna last too long.
But you literally connect with him every day. Yeah, I'm
almost almost, you know, you know, might might miss a

(01:59:26):
day or two here and there, but we text, you
know or something. You know, what do you what do
you talk about? Whatever is going on? You know, it's
like getting two friends. You know. We were you know,
rooting for rooting for his daughter in the Olympics, you know,
and man, that was something that was exciting. Come away
with a silver metal, you know. Um, and we talked

(01:59:48):
about all kinds of different things were um, you know,
we're doing a big event. This is this Sunday is
gonna interview me about the book? And uh, man, no
whatever and whatever. Okay, So let's say, hypothetically, I waive
my magic wand you are completely in control of Bruce

(02:00:09):
and the Street Band. What should be their next step?
What should be the direction if you are in charge? Well,
I think I think at this point it's just it's this.
It's this kind of obvious, isn't it. I mean, we uh,
you know, hopefully this virus will cooperate and we're a

(02:00:30):
little bit of luck to be back on tour next year. Um,
I think, you know, playing inside might be a little
bit dodgy for a while, so maybe we'll probably start outside.
You know, it would be my guests. And I'm guessing
right now, okay with your magic wand I'm guessing, uh,

(02:00:51):
you know, but if we do go out, it will
probably be go out for two years. I would like
to go to some new places. I always do. I'm
always arguing for that. Um you know, uh, maybe a
little bit more time in the Far East, but we
don't spend much time in you know, maybe Dubai, so
maybe Israel, just to piss off those boycott people, you know,

(02:01:14):
I would just like to do that effort for just
you know, they've been, they've been, you know, as obnoxious
as humanly possible. And we never even had it on
the schedule. You know. It was like, how dare you
think about playing Israel's not gonna hear all these adolescent
insults to me videos. I'm like, we never even thought

(02:01:35):
about it, but I'm thinking about it now, you know,
So you know I'd like to go. I'd like to
do with places where we have been. It's always fun
to break in a new crowd, you know, I mean China, man,
you know, we gotta get to China soon. I went
to China for one day. I was trying to get

(02:01:55):
my radio show on there, and um, I wanted to
be the first Western DJ and China to tign them
off right, you know. And uh. And I talked to
some people and I said, you know, too many people
come play here. And they say, well, we don't really
like live music too much. I was like, what do
you mean. They said, well, we're so we're they're so

(02:02:15):
used to lip syncing, you know that that live music.
This sounds too sloppy. Was like, oh, man, we gotta
get to China soon before it's too late, you know, yeah,
we gotta we gotta start changing those heads around. Man,
come on, you know too sloppy. We take great pride
in our sloppy is you know. But the only thing

(02:02:39):
in terms of records, you and me both know, the
landscape has completely changed. The action Spoti type spotify tough.
If you are nowhere nearer as big as the action
the sixties, never mind the seventies and eighties. And if
you are an act, you could put out a record
and people don't even know. So I was thinking, Max Martin,

(02:03:01):
who I barely know, met a few times, talked a
few times. He started out as a real rock musician.
How about if Bruce tried to make a record with him.
You know that This is what Paul McCartney did about
twenty years ago with Nigel Goodrich. He worked with Radiohead
and then Nigel said, you know, I think it could

(02:03:21):
do better on a song. This is writing a song,
And Paul McCartney says, I'm Paul McCartney. No, I I
know it's done. But I think you know that you
talk about Hungry heart Land, all that dancing in the dark.
I think there could be another one. Well, I you know,
you can't rule it out because because there's no there's

(02:03:43):
no real rules. Um I think uh, I think, well,
what happened the first time, it could happen again, which
was a real ground swell. We were so popular live
they started to become a problem for radio not playing us.
You know, there's as a certain point if you can

(02:04:04):
actually get that groundswell going. I'm not sure you know
it could happen exactly the same way, but I think
it's possible. You know that just in the middle of
let's say our next tour really just explodes and selling
out multiple stadiums everywhere. You know, you might have enough
momentum to just start having radio loosen up a little bit.

(02:04:25):
You know, I don't know why classic rock refuses to
play new things. I don't get it. I've done speeches
at their conventions and talk to them. I know them all.
Half of them are running my my show in syndication,
and I'm like, why, you know, why would you play
Hey June every two hours and not play a new

(02:04:46):
song by Paul McCartney. Why why would you play Brown
Sugar every two hours and not play a new song
by the Stones? You know, I don't get it, and
I agree with you. But the ship is sailed. Radio
is nowhere near as powerful as it once was. Both
that's good because the gatekeeper is not as strong. That's
bad because the rest of the rule is the tower
of Babel. Well that's the thing. You say that that,

(02:05:09):
but that that. But the point is, let's just assume,
for the sake of discussion, there was that definitive track,
which I don't think Bruce has had recently. But we
we won't argue about that. You have that definitive track.
Those people at Spotify etcetera. They are dying to make
their bones on ship like this. They will give it

(02:05:30):
a good shot. These alternative sources radio, Yeah, the old
people who listen to radio, etcetera. But the active buyer
is online. I'm just it's possible. I'm just not sure. Uh,
the infrastructure that we now exist in, Uh you can
have that mass shared experience. I don't know. I don't think.

(02:05:51):
I don't think you can have it. It's too fragmented,
isn't It's too fragmenting. I mean it is. But as
you stated earlier, rock is it the bottom in terms
of recordings, not in terms of live So if you
look at this track that Max Martin did with the
Weekend and the Cold cold Play, cold Play was never
gonna have a hit without Max Martin. The song is

(02:06:12):
not a one listened smash, okay, but gigantic success. I'm
not saying Bruce needs to sell out. But you know,
I had this discussion what the fund is his name?
You know, the hopper, Dave Cobb. Okay. I was talking
to the manager's good friend of mine, manages Garth Brooks.

(02:06:32):
Garth Brooks very loyal to his people. I said, hey
should work with Dave Cobb, and he says, you know,
it's not my choice. Garth is loyal to his people.
But I think, first of all, Dave Cobb will be
a perfect match for Bruce. That's what he does. But
if you want to single, you work with Max Martin
worst case scenario. It's a learning experience. I'm not saying

(02:06:54):
somebody to sell out just to pull you into a
different space. But I'll get off my soul box and
I'll go to my final thing here. Okay, you read
the book. You've had so many experiences that if you
die tomorrow, you know you've had a great life in
the anywhere from one minute to twenty five years. You
have left anything left and left that you want to

(02:07:17):
do accomplish personal career wise, well, I don't know, I
I really have in some ways. I just kind of
discovered a whole new way of making records and writing songs, uh,
which sounds funny because it's the way everybody else does it.
But my last my lowest album is the first fictional

(02:07:41):
album I've ever done, you know, and uh and and
and fiction is fun, you know, it takes a lot
of pressure off U, all this life and death stuff.
So I don't know that. I wonder where that could go. Um.
I got five completed scripts and twenty five treatments, uh,

(02:08:04):
any of which I think would be really enjoyable TV shows.
I like to do more of that. Um. Live, I
love producing live events the most. The Broadway show I did.
I think it was the high point of my artistic life.
I I love, you know, writing, directing, producing, and and
really uh doing something that is entertaining with substance live.

(02:08:30):
I mean, there's nothing quite like live. So, you know,
as as much as I love TV, and I have
a couple of movie ideas as well. Um, we'll keep
the Disciples Soul going if I can. But you know,
I like, I like, I like doing a lot of things.
So it's just a matter of staying busy and uh

(02:08:51):
finding a patron to pay for it. That's my That's
my goal in life, you know, and then maybe maybe
I'll achieve my ultimate goal life, which is breaking even. Okay, Stephen,
this has been fantastic. I want to thank you so
much for taking the time to talk with me. My
my my pleasure. I've always get type of liver. Okay,

(02:09:12):
until next time, It's Bob Leftstax

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Bob Lefsetz

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