Tom Corson

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Ups Podcast.
My guest today is Calm Courson, who's presently co chairman
and CEO of Warrener Records, but he seems to have
worked at every label, A and M Capital you know,
Sony and now Warner. What makes Warner different from any
of your other situations. Yeah, this is an exciting thank

(00:30):
you for having me. First of all, absolutely glad to
have you here, glad to be We've known each other
a long time, Absolutely big fan. And you know when
I think i've we first encountered each other, I don't know,
maybefore at when they had Giant and Brian Adams they
played on the sound stage in Your wife was pregnant

(00:51):
at the time. I believe she would have been very
good of you to remember that and delivered a nice,
healthy girl at that time. On top of our boy,
what are they? How old? How old are your kids today?
And thirty? Our daugh will be twenty nine in a week.
What are they up to? Our daughter is just graduated
from Chinese medical school, so she'll be your acculates, your
natural path. And our son is in banking, in finance

(01:14):
and he's an analyst at A at essentially a hedge fund.
And where is that hedge fund? They're both here, Yeah,
both our kids in l A. Okay, Yeah we did
meet at A and M for sure. So but let's
start with today. What makes Warner different from other labels
with this? Yeah, the opportunity that that I've taken taken
on a Warner, you know, twenty one months ago, is unique. Um.

(01:35):
You take one of the greatest record labels in the
history struggling, you know, really trying to find its way, uh,
and looked at it as an incredible chance to bring
a great, great mark, a great great brand back to
it's heyday. Okay, And what have you done well in
the last twenty one months, Bob? We have changed so

(01:56):
much to the label. We've we've we've flipped fifty of
the roster. We had a very kind of you know,
album oriented, not urban, not particularly pop leaning roster, and
we freshened it up with a lot of urban signings,
a lot of pop signings, Uh, artists that weren't you know,
dedicated to just putting out an album in the album
cycle business. Some that remain are fantastic And if you

(02:18):
think about the Chili Peppers and Green Day and Josh
Groban and Michael Boubley, amongst others, their perennials. They're all timers.
You you know, you don't you don't turn your back
on them. They're wonderful and uh and they have a
lot of commercial um vitality in the market. Uh. But
we needed to refresh the younger, the younger crop. And
Aaron's come in about a year ago. Aaron Bay Chuck
my co chairman and CEO. He's put my partner and

(02:41):
together we were really calling together a fantastic roster. And
so we've've also changed the attitude and the brand of
the company. We have a new name, Warner Records, not
Warner Brothers, a new logo with Mark. We've got a
new building which is spectacular. We invite everybody to downtown
l A into the Arts district on Seventh and Sam
a Heo and it's just a started seventh in Santa Fe.

(03:03):
Just fantastic. New building was the old Ford Motor Company building.
We've changed the entire senior management of the company and
quite a few other people and we're bringing a fresh
new energy to the company that really it hasn't had
many years. Okay, let's go back a chapter. You at
r c A. Just before this, I was, uh, how
did you decide to jump? Yeah? Our c A. We

(03:23):
we had a great run at our c Peter and
I took over the label in two thousand eleven. Peter, Yes,
Peter Edge and a longtime friend and colleague of mine. Uh,
and we put together a company there that I'm really
proud of, you know. Um. And there were a lot
of things that led to it, I'd always but one
of the main things I'd always I wanted to move
back to l A to be with my family because
our kids moved out here. It was time and as

(03:44):
you'll remember, I left here in ninety six, and uh,
it was time to get back to l A. Had
always wanted to come back and talked about working by coastal,
which I don't think is really a great leadership strategy,
and especially when you're working at a turnaround, you need
to be right in the middle of things. Uh. In
joyed my time at r c A. Got a lot
of respect for the team. They're built the team there.
You know. I was different part r S as an

(04:06):
amalgam of a number of labels over many years. Uh,
starting in in two thousand with Jay Records merging into
Arris and so forth. Um and and that was a
tough decision. I love Sony, I love the management there,
but I couldn't pass up the opportunity to move back
to l a and to to bring Warner Brothers back
to and now warning Warner Records back to two It's
Heyday to It's glory. Now are you the one who

(04:28):
got Aaron bay Shook to come or was that already
in the works when you made the decision? That was
already in the works. It was a strategy that Max Lissada,
who was the CEO of music group Max Um, put
us together. It was an arranged marriage. Did you know Aaron?
We had met a couple of times, but I didn't
know him. Um and admired him from a distance. Uh.
You know, his energy is great, his his track record

(04:51):
is impressive. Signing Bruno Mars working with some of the
artists he's worked with over the years. Uh and just
actually more than anything, just sitting down talking with them
knowing we had really similar or almost the same values
of what we wanted to do and uh and where
we where we weren't quite on the same page. We've
called cobbled together a strategy and and emission statement and

(05:12):
and and core values that are really working for the company.
So what does he do and what do you do? Uh?
In the simplest fashion, I'm the operating guy in the
marketing and promotion guy, and Aaron is the creative guy
and signs in A and RS the acts UH. Together,
we we work with our business affairs had Julian Petty
and we do the deals and UH and and you

(05:32):
know what, Aaron is the guy out finding and and
and and recruiting the talent, making the records, finding great
A and our people, um, but you know, the best companies.
And I think Peter and I had a good, really
good relationship that way. Great and our people also have
real good marketing instincts. Great marketing people have great A
and our instincts, and Aaron embodies that. And as we

(05:53):
forged together the relationship, I'm really seeing the best of
him come out. Okay, even though it's more under his purview.
What is it like being an A and R person today?
Because certainly in the old days it was about discovering things.
Now everything is available on the internet, So what what
do you what's the job of the A and Army
of today. I don't think the job is essentially changed.

(06:15):
It's to find amazing artists who make really stellar records
that hopefully become hits or they become something more more
more cultural, if you will, and and and kind of
set a tone for for music and and and for
great artistry. And there's room for that at great labels still, um.

(06:35):
But essentially it's it's making great records and making hit
songs and finding and creating stars and and you know.
So that's that starts with the A and R Department
and the people that are out there doing the research
and going to see acts and and you know, and
and it isn't it isn't always the ones with the
with the greatest data that that end up working, you know.
But that's that's it's a very data focus, data leaning

(06:58):
approach these days. And but at the end of the day,
more than one label usually has the same data, more
than one A and our person is usually checked out
the act before we go deeper into the data. UM.
Having had a long career and most of it at
the top, have you ever directly signed an act? I have?
I have a few over there is Pentatonics. I was.
I was heavily involved with signing radio Head to the

(07:20):
US label at the time, UM, and and kind of
led the charge on that to Capital when Halmilgram was
running it. Uh, you know, and on and on. You know,
I've I've and and i've and I'm always involved in
in in I'm not always I'm almost always involved in
everything that signed. Le tell us the story of Pentatonics
because that was certainly something from left field relative the

(07:41):
traditional record business and was ultra successful. Yeah. Look they
had there, they came off the sing off they had
you know, nobody picked him up that it was a
direct to Sony sort of relationship. Um. Other labels had
passed on. In fact, we passed on him a number
of times. For those who don't know. This is an
acapella group. Yes, a very unusual group who now doing
arenas and and have our superstars you know, and wonderful

(08:03):
people as well. Uh. They I've been watching them for
a while and and and and Linny Beer had who Yeah,
but he co manages them with Jonathan Caulter and and
the Hits management team does it. Had brought it to
me a couple of times and I've taken in the
CD A and R meeting, and I got the answer
I expected, which was, Hey, this is great, but we
don't get it. We don't know how that fits into

(08:24):
what we do. And at some point what happened was
we just saw what was going on at the time
at iTunes that their Christmas EP was going off going,
so they put that out independently. They did how long
after the TV show that was about, Well, it depends
on which piece of product, but at the time we
looked at it, I believe it was about three years
after after they were okay. So it's just funny that

(08:45):
there's that much, you know, stickiness in the marketplace. Yeah, well,
they broke off a YouTube Initially, they had their own
YouTube channel. They were like a top twenty YouTube music channel,
and and everyone was sort of like not liking them.
They weren't they weren't they weren't sexy or ed g
in the way that labels generally look at things. And
and so I've always had a marketing as you know,

(09:05):
my I'm a marketer by by training, and so I
looked at it and eventually I just went to Peter
and I said, Peter, I'm signing this, and he was
very supportive and he said, okay, great, I hope it works.
You know, I said, it's gonna work to some degree.
We're not gonna lose money because you can see what's
going on here, and because I like to think I'm
a pretty good marketer. We knew what to do with it.
The team bought in, Uh, well what did you do

(09:26):
with it? Well, you know, we we did the things
that they were incapable of doing in terms of maybe
funding or having access to the right things. And ultimately
it was making sure that you know, the product was
was well explained to retail at the time because a
lot of it was was physical that we already had
a partner in Apple and iTunes, who were very supportive.

(09:47):
Amazon had at that time was was you know, more
physical leading, and they they really saw a market for it.
You can imagine with the Amazon consumer being maybe a
little bit older and a little bit more mainstream and
a little bit where our center of America not coastal
and hipster leaning, that was a no brainer for them.
Up in the YouTube was an incredible partner. We doubled
down on YouTube and video and the way you go

(10:08):
about it and so forth, and we just for those
who don't know. When you're in the belly of the beast,
how do you double down on YouTube? What does that
look like? Well, you know you can you you dissect
the algorithm. You look at all the different various touch
points where you can reach an audience. You have data
and information. It's a little bit slower, so what might
those touch points be? Uh, you know, different YouTube channels
you g C opportunities that you know you can you

(10:31):
can point to and and have people do their own
kind of versions of videos if you will, or whatever
happens in the u g C page really slow. Okay,
you have something you want to work. It has some traction.
So then you search who has a good audience on
YouTube and approach them. Yeah you have you did the research.
You didn't like audiences where they're sharing, where there's some crossover,

(10:54):
and then you put these these Then you pitch these
videos for playlisting or whatever within the YouTube you know ecosphere.
And it's changed a lot since then, but it's essentially
let's jump. Yeah, then that's how you would do it.
Now it's, as I say, since that physical error is
essentially over, how do you deal with YouTube. Now, um well,
YouTube is a great partner. They they they they are

(11:15):
the you know you you you you like anybody you
introduced them to. The artists you get you get them
the information, You get them excited about about the content,
and you differentiate the artist from one another from thousands
of other artists. You might be, you know, a band,
or a white female or an urban person or you
know whatever, whatever they whatever, the kind of category you

(11:36):
put them in, and and and and and obviously you know,
they've got to get excited about the music and the
content that's presented. Because we're storytellers, you know, we're brand builders.
At the end of the day, we work very obviously,
we work with the brand, which is the hardest product.
And you know, we sit there and say, okay, well
you are you you you are similar to these sort

(11:57):
of artists or these sort of you know records. And
I always say, you know, I know you're totally unique,
but what do you sound like? That's right, what do
you sound like? And what what are you about? And
you and with everything going socially today, you know, it's
ultimately all about the music and the content, but it's
also you know, about the story, about the conversation that
they're having directly with their fans, you know, and then

(12:17):
we amplify that, you know, by by going to places,
whether it's playlisting that they can't get because they're not
necessarily aligned or can't get in the media. Let's just
assume that just stupid. Let's go back one more chapter though,
so it tell us the stories signing Radiohead. Yeah, well Radiohead.
What happened was it was passed on by every US
label in the EMI system at the time. Um, everyone

(12:39):
was excited about other acts. They were a little more
already creep was. It was a modest hit in the UK,
and then all of a sudden and it's it's it's
such an old school story, but all of a sudden,
Live on A five specialty show started playing it in
San Francisco, and we noticed because I was trying to
get it signed to to Capital, and so I went
to my wonderful US at the time, Hill Milgram. I said, hey, Hale,

(13:02):
you see what's going on over here. And there's a
guy named Rob Gordon who deserves full credit too. We
were both excited about it. Now he switched to Warner Brothers.
Where's Rob today? I think Rob's freelancing. I think he's
a consultant. Um and and Rob and I got excited
and said, do you mind if we take uh, if
we take five thousand CD singles and see the market
in the Bay Area And they sold out immediately and

(13:23):
then the rest is sort of history. So did I
signed them, pick them up? Whatever? Okay? But I was
very I was very instrumental doing okay, But did you
have an inkling of what they would turn into? No?
I thought I thought they were great. But you know,
Pablo Honey is a good It's a really good album.
It's not their best album. You know. I'll let everyone

(13:44):
argue about whether each one it is. I mean, they're
all they all have their own special place in folks hearts,
but they but Tom was special. The players in the
band were really solid. They were growing as a live band. Uh.
They had a point of view. And and when the
Bins came in and we heard that album, uh, it
was like, oh my god, this is a great act.

(14:05):
And uh. I left shortly thereafter and moved to Columbia.
But I'm really proud of the band. And they were
wonderful people. And and the two managers were terrific and
we had a great time. And you know they've gone
on on to do to be radio ahead. And let's
stay with that for one second, because a lot of
bands with longevity will say I signed and everybody was here.

(14:26):
I'm still at the label. Nobody I ever had any
business with its still there. So what's that like when
you're trying to convince people to go with you? Yeah,
you know, well, look I I point out that I
was at at our c A and some version of
it for almost twenty years, you know, And so I'm
not a guy who's bounced around a lot, even though
I I had an average in my first you know,

(14:46):
maybe fifteen twenty years of my career of every five
or six years moving labels, which you know, I think
for a young person in the business is not a
bad strategy. Get different experiences, work with different people, make relationships,
um and and and have more than one way to
do things and and labels are different and experiences are different. Uh.
But and then settling down where I really enjoyed the

(15:08):
whole process that that I experienced from two thousand to
two thousand eighteen of of being in that system, and
I liked I liked the BMG and Sony systems a lot.
And I think that that that they were very good
to to to what I was trying to accomplish, which was,
you know, helped create big stars and big brands and
nurture the ones that were on their way. Um, and

(15:29):
we had a great team. I worked for some of
the all time great people in the business, you know.
So I uh, you know, you know that process was
was really a lot of fun. And um, let's get
back to the question I think I've lost. You know,
you said you were there for eighteen years and I
sell artists. Yeah, Look, I tell artists is like I'm
a stable guy. I plan on being here for a

(15:51):
long time, you know. And uh and and because you
know you as an artist that that you know, you're
sitting there and it's there. They're on their own, you know,
in a lot of ways. They're they're the brand, they're
on the marquee, they're on the on the top of
the of the package, whatever that looks like, whether it's
digital or physical. And so at the end of the day,

(16:11):
you know, whether it works or not, it's on it's
on them. And what happens in the meantime they have
to own. So so my pitch to them is like, look,
I plan on being around Aaron plans on being around
here for a long time, you know, and uh and
and so our expectation is that will be going through
many cycles together, many ups and downs, but that will
have some measure of success and satisfaction together. Uh, you know,

(16:34):
and and and that doesn't always work out, you know,
people change. And I'm the whatever, i am the fifth
leader of of Warner Records, Warner Brothers Records. But you know,
what I'd like to think is that my track record
will help and my success will help pave a way
for a really stable company for a long time. That's actually,

(16:55):
that's actually okay, let's really slow it down and start. Okay,
I'm an artist, Okay, we'll make it really left field.
I'm a very successful klezmer artist. Will you sign music
in any genre or music that you feel is the
easiest to market to the largest segment of the market,
which now is basically hip hop and pop um. We

(17:19):
may not sign the klezmer artist, however, you know, we're
we're interested in artists that move culture. We're interested in
artists that move units. We're interested an artist that want
hits and want to be global. Um, we're a big
major label. So we have a new mission statement art
plus impact art representing the scrappiness of an indie and

(17:41):
the ability to be open to different forms of music.
So we're generalists in that sense, you know. And at
the same time, we're we're we're we're broadly generalists and
globalists that we want to create an impact that an
impact of a major can can can provide. So therefore,
the short answer is we're open to things that can
really move culture and move units and and be big

(18:02):
global Okay, talking presently, let's just say I'm a rock band.
I have fewer than a million streams on Spotify, and
I don't have a big audience on YouTube. But when
you when people see them this act, they say, this
is unbelievable. Yeah, what does what does warners say that?

(18:22):
I think we? I think we. Then it's a value judgment,
you know. Then it's like, do we have a vision?
Do we have a shared vision for this artist? When
we sit down with them, we're excited about them, we
see potential. So it's old school A and R. You know,
it's old school marketing. It's like Hey, do we see
a path for this artist that maybe not everybody sees,
you know, and everybody has their own unique lens that
they look at artists through. Because once then, by the way,

(18:44):
even if the data is great, you know, and the
data points you in a certain direction, uh, there are
a number of labels that won't go after something they
have because that then it comes down to the taste
and the culture within the label and where the artist
fits and do we have a point of view, do
we have a vision for this artist and does is
it shared with the artist? And so you know, there

(19:04):
are very few artists that that all labels go for,
you know, and for different reasons, but a lot of
it is cultural. They just they don't mesh up nicely.
You have a good meeting with one label, you have
not such a good meeting with another label. And so
from our standpoint, you know, it's can be data driven,
but at the end of the day, we have to

(19:24):
feel the music. Okay. So you stated earlier that you've
uh moved Warner more into the urban sphere. So if
you look at the data today, if we look at
Spotify top fifty, that is almost all hip hop and
pop and for those people who don't make that kind
of music. Is a major label the right place for them?

(19:45):
Are you interested in them? So that we have an artist,
Suburban that we signed right now and and which is
streaming like a growing pop hip hop artist, but he's
like more rock leaning, you know, and now starting to
try at alternative radio. So okay, so let's start with that.
When you signed Suburban, what was the status of both

(20:07):
the act and touring and data, etcetera. It was just
a song that an Indian put out that we noticed
that was that was that was streaming, that was moving.
It wasn't six million globally like it is now, but
it was and it got our attention. And then you
get into the qualitative part of it, Okay, the subjective part.
You know, we thought that we heard a couple more songs.
We were excited by that, we've met the kids. Okay,

(20:28):
just to be clear, someone on your team just found it.
It wasn't like you were pitched by a manager region.
It was very early and there and and and the
song it was with an indie called NCS out of
the UK, so we had to go through that as well.
But one of our and R guys Stephen Max cited it,
picked it up, somebody tipped him to it, He dug

(20:49):
in deeply. He went out and met the artist the
whole thing and brought it in and said, hey, I
want to sign this, and we shared that vision. And
then we when we met Suburban the artist, we thought
he was terrific. He we thought he had potential. He
played a couple more songs, told us his vision for
his video of Cradles that just dropped a week or
two ago, and we thought, yeah, we we believe we

(21:09):
share that vision. Okay, if you sign an act like that,
is it a traditional deals shall we say, pre internet?
Where you get a royalty depending on whether it's wholesale retail,
you know, twelve to twenty or is it more of
a revenue split after costs? What? What is? There's no
such thing as a standard deal, but someone in that position,
what kind of deal might they be a? You know,

(21:30):
to be honest, I don't remember that specific deal, but
there's there. There's all sorts of deals that can happen
now and it depends, like everything, it depends on what
you want, how that fits with our economics, What leverage
you have, what leverage we have, you know, and and
and how you're positioned within within the genre, because there's
certain genres that are leaning more towards ventures now where

(21:50):
others are more royalty leaning um, which which more hip hop,
more hip hop, some pop, but more hip hop because
hip hop, those are leading in which way a little
bit more venture, a little more profit shares. But there's exceptions,
you know, and and and and we're not you know,
we're open to whatever as long as we have a
fairly you know, long term you know, um investment or

(22:11):
a long term relationship with the act over you know,
four or five albums. You know, we'll do we'll do
lesser from time to time, but our feeling is that
this is a long term relationship. We're going to build
a lot of asset value together, and you know, we're
gonna invest and you know, you know, the odds, the
odds are that it won't work, you know, and and
so but we're going to go in and seven figure
level and in almost every case, and and you know,

(22:34):
sometimes high seven figure levels before we really see what
we've got. And and we're up for that. So we
want to know we're in it together. Forget the Bidding
War Act the average act at this point. You know,
people don't use this term that much anymore, But is
it going to have to be a three sixty deal?
We prefer those and and look at the view on that,
and they're not as egregious as they used to be

(22:54):
when people are taking of everything that that I haven't
seen for a long time. Um, we have a longer,
more partnership approach we have. We do have a merch
company and an artist called Artist Services. They're very good
at what they do. They handle both artists within the
Warner Music Group and outside. So we feel we can
scale that in terms of the requirement if you don't
have a merch deal to sign with your house is

(23:15):
not it is not. We'd prefer it, and but it
makes things easier on on on a DTC level, on
a v I P level, on a merched level, we
can we it's more holistic and and and there's a
there's a shorter line of communication, that more efficient line
of communication. Okay, So I've always wondered people might say,

(23:35):
and I'm not who I'm talking about history as opposed
to you, and uh, specifically that royalties are not that
accurate or get paid by the labels, How does the
label ensure that they're not screwed by the act I'm
touring in whatever other income there is. Well, we have
we have language in the agreements that we expect people

(23:57):
to honor. And at the end of the day, there
are acts. Most acts do pay you and there and
they there's there, they step up and there may be
some accounting that that is might be missing a piece
or two from time to time, so you have to
sometimes have that conversation. But by and large, the acts
or stand up acts and the ones that choose maybe
not to pay you, there's recourse, um, you know, and

(24:18):
and you'd prefer to avoid that and just have a
straight up relationship. Um, but you know, there's future advances
and royalties and this and that, and you might have
a language in the deal that says, hey, we can
recover you know, unpaid three sixty revenue from somewhere else. Um.
It depends on the deal, It depends on the label
and when it was done, you know, but we'd prefer
not to get Okay, So let's just assume I have,

(24:40):
you know, a three album deal within five years and
it plays out and we both decide to go our
separate ways. Let's just assume you own the Masters, Okay, uh?
Is there are there any sunset clauses or anything on
these other streams of revenue. There may be, you know,
there may be, but more likely when when our deal expires,

(25:02):
it expires and you move on. But there may be
a sunset clause depending on the nature of the conversation
at the time of the deal was done. Let's go
to the other extreme, someone like Little Nasax, someone who's
blowing up traditionally hip hop acts in the last thirty
six months. The data is there, they're streaming, they're part
of are is that something you're interested in getting into?

(25:24):
I'm sorry, something that has proven itself such that they
are willing to go with a major label. But the
deal is going to be harsh. Yeah. Look, and by
the way, that the deal for a Little nos X
wasn't harsh, you know. Um, But look, we have an
act called n l E. Choppa and Choppa had a
track called shot a Flow, or has a track called
shot a Flow which blew up and it was on
an indie called United Masters. And you know, but it

(25:46):
was one of the United Masters what's his name? Yeah,
so so, but he didn't really have any futures, you know,
he had a he had a short window. Um, and
so we went after it and and and it was
a very robust deal and at the end of the
day we penciled it out and we got the deal. Um.
We developed. We believe in the kid. We think with

(26:07):
his name is Bryson. We think he's a star and
just dropped a track in a video called Camelot, which
is exploding million streams a week globally. He's he's a
video you know figure. He just reacts video wise as well,
and we feel like we got one, you know. Um,
but he's it's a little early for we're now crossing
in into urban radio. It's more of a traditional move

(26:29):
in that sense. Little Nazex has proven to be more
of a pop facing act at the moment. We're very
envious of his of his success and excited for for Columbia.
But you know, we feel like, you know, we've got
a couple of our own that we're building as well.
But we're up. We're up for picking up quick hits.
I mean absolutely, we're in that business. But we're also
in the long term artist development business. Okay, but that

(26:52):
you're signing more urban artists as opposed to the old
album cycle. So let's assume you signed an active urban
urban and pop. But at the same time, we're broadening.
We're a full service company. We've signed rock acts, we
signed you know, we're we're open to just great artists. Okay,
So let's but just for the sake of discussion, well,
any new artists you signed. Okay, in the old days,

(27:12):
everybody wanted to make their album. Let's just assume I
don't have incredible traction in the marketplace. What is the
label going to say relative to product? The label is
gonna say, let's we're gonna air on the side of
putting out more product than less. We're gonna do it
in a way that is customer bespoke to that artist trajectory.

(27:32):
We're gonna do it. We're gonna do it, uh my
British relationship. We're gonna do it in a fashion where
we feel like we have the story and the content
build around it that makes sense. We're gonna learn probably
more a track by track and maybe an EP or
a mixtape depending on what genre it's in. Um and
but albums are albums still matter because albums become sort

(27:55):
of the anchor in most cases for the artist brand.
You know, what do you name the tour? What's the
theme to what the artist is doing at the moment,
What are this what's the storyline through the album? In
many cases, that is the narrative that takes this beyond
just music and and and just a video. So it's
talked about socially, it's talked about in fashion. Remember, these
artists are brands. They have they have they there are

(28:17):
three and there are three sixty brands in the sense
that they can do once they're established and they don't
even have to be that big start working with brands
and being considered for film and TV, and you know,
it's a it's a multimedia kind of marketplace now and
we need to to to keep that in mind whenever
we do things. So the the the cycle you know,
is always on. However, you have to have a reason

(28:40):
to come to market with music. You can't just put
it out in hope. And so that's where we work
very hard, and that's part of the brand building and
the narrative and the storyline that that really is the
essential part of like why this artist, why now? Why
this music? Why this video, et cetera. What's the story. Okay,
let's just say you have an artist and a new
artist real watively unknown. Is it basically fishing? You put

(29:02):
out single and single and then once if hopefully you
get traction, then you work on that single specifically. Um,
that's one. That's one strategy. Yeah, And and that's that's
a fairly tried and true strategy. And and what you're
doing with the singles, you're not necessary or the songs
or whatever you want to call the tracks. You're not
expecting everyone to be a single single means kind of
your you're you're out with the expectation that it's some

(29:24):
form of a hit. You know, you're you're, you're Sometimes
you're just telling a story. You know. We might be
out with a single and put out a couple of
tracks because maybe that maybe that single needs sort of
sustenance under it and more of the artist conversation, something
for the artist to talk about while they're while they're
working the single, something for the fans to relate to,
or it has a different reason. So it's all, it's

(29:46):
all custom, it's all, it's all individually done. Okay, Now,
my friend Richard Griffiths who managed One Direction and still
manages Nile Horran and a million million other people. He said,
a stiff no longer hurt you. That if you put
out a single it doesn't succeed, there's no tarnish your
career as long as you come up with hit thereafter.

(30:06):
Would you agree with that? Yeah, I think I'd largely
agree with that. But I would say, you know, failure
always stings, and and and and and it always hopefully
it's a learning moment and a learning experience, and you
don't double down on something that didn't work. But but
you've got it. You can't have too many failures in
a row, you know. And then, because I think, then

(30:28):
the question is are we doing the right thing? Is
this the right music? Is this the right artist? Is
this actually somebody we can scale to your point earlier,
our point earlier? Failure is the norm, you know, success
is unusual when you give up. Okay, So going back

(30:48):
to the I didn't really formulate this question back to
the Spotify top fifty, which is essentially hip hop and pop.
Well that I know you're a full service company, but
would you leave that way because that is definitive of
a lucrative marketplace. Well, I mean we have to be competitive, right,
we have to. We have a I have a p
n L to to meet, I have a budget to
to serve to our our owner, you know, and and

(31:11):
and and our team, and so of course we have
to be we have to serve the market and what
the market wants. But you know that doesn't mean you're
just I mean, what the mistake we could make was
just doing the same thing that everybody else is doing,
going to try and to find another little naz X
or whatever, who's a needle in a haystack, by the way,
I mean, I mean, you know, but we want to
find something that we think is next. Is next in

(31:33):
hip hop and pop and and you know, pop and
hip hop and music mute mutate every day. They mutate
all the time, you hear it. Sounds come in, flavors
come in, hairstyles come in, you know, fashion comes in
different ways of breaking things. TikTok didn't matter a year ago,
it's now it's now pushing artists up into the ecosystem
dramatically and quickly. Um So, yeah, but you know, I

(31:57):
wouldn't be surprised if the next thing that came along
with some new form of rock that that stunned everybody.
I mean, I mean, it wasn't long ago. The twenty
one pilots, you know, kind of just made this gargantian
leap from from the alternative sort of touring business to
having pop hits. You know, Um, I I see that

(32:18):
coming again. You know it's it's definitely on it. So
so you know, you can't chase after a genre that
isn't working. That would be fool harder. You do have
to pay attention to the market forces, but you can't
also ignore the fact that music and genres mutate and
and red redefine and reinvent themselves. Well, certainly on Spotify
were all the data of the terms of the number

(32:39):
of streams is visible to everybody if they know how
to extract it from the desktop. Although it's on the
most successful singles on every app. Uh, that's hard data.
How important is the Billboard chart to you? Billboard chart
is important? Um, it's it's it's it's a it's a
measure success. It's marketing, it's advertising, it's it's a way

(33:06):
to kind of look at your competition. We are a business.
We have to have key performance indicators that we can
show to justify our needs and also to pitch to
artists and managers and lawyers and say, look, we're competitive,
we have x number of records in the top one hundred.
We have this sort of market share, this sort of
chart share. This is why we're viable, and and and

(33:28):
and and and so it does matter. And do we
live and die off of it every day? No, you know,
because every day is a different day. We have different
needs and goals as we as we move along. But
charts matter, and charts. Charts are also fun. It's fun
to be number one, top ten, good to be the king.
It is. But what about you know, many people say

(33:49):
there's manipulation on the chart now because people are bundlings. Yeah, yeah,
I mean, yes, that's a form of manipulation. It is.
It is, it is official, it is we we all
have opportunity to do it. UM. I don't think that
it's artificial in most cases. I think that it's if

(34:10):
someone's gaming it, then they're smarter than I am, and
and that's not hard to do. But you know, being
smarter than me not it. But you know, it's you know,
it's unique that you can really drive that much UM
product you know, you have to be a pretty substantial

(34:30):
to make it matter to begin with. So so you've
got to get there first and then you can figure out,
you know, what maneuvers you can make. But you know,
my my feeling is like game on, you know, I mean,
you know, as if the consumer is parting with their
hard earned money and they're voting for their artists, and
as long as you're not doing something that that is
is untoward and and and and and you're gaming it,

(34:54):
then then so be it. But it should be transparent.
It should be clear what the rules are. It should
it shouldn't war for every three months because somebody's lobbying,
you know, to get a number one. It should we
know it's this and it's not that, and it should
be very clear. And billboards making great strides to do that, Okay.
And how important is radio today? Radio is very important today? Um,

(35:14):
different in a different way than it was before because
radio is a lot of different things now too, um
because they you know, they have streaming capabilities. Certainly I
heeart does and and and XM serious. XM is is
a great are great marketers, and they're they're great at
you know, providing a really interesting service and what they do.
Um and you know, when you look at what I

(35:34):
Heeart does and and some of the other chains they
they build out and have, you know, shows and TV
shows and events, uh and brand affiliations, it can be
very very helpful. Um So, while while we're going through
a phase where airplay itself isn't maybe where people discover
music the way they used to five or six years ago,

(35:57):
there's an element of that that is still there with
a certain consumer that maybe isn't streaming or just loves
radio and they love the theater of radio and in
the relationship they have with it because as you remember,
radio's local, you know, whereas you know, streaming is global,
and you know, and and so there's an opportunity at
that raded that the smart programmers and smart marketers at

(36:17):
radio have to continue to to amplify both the scale
of what they've got and actually keep things local and
and you know, it's a it's a different form of entertainment.
But we don't live and die on radio quite the
same way we used to. But in order to really
scale a hit song, you've got to have radio. Okay, Now,
in you know, decades past, a record could have less

(36:40):
than a two month lifespan on radio. Now the record
can go for a year. Okay, how do you feel?
And of course, Lizzo, the record is in the marketplace
for a long time before it gets on radio. How
does this affect you on your red I'm sure you're
frustrated to throw on slots on these stations. Yeah, well
look yes, but at the same time, you know, there,

(37:02):
I don't feel it's that I don't feel we're that
challenged at the moment. I think it's always hard to
get your song played and and to explain a new song,
especially off a new act, and so forth and so on.
And the Lizzo story is amazing. Hats off to her
and to her team in Atlantic. Um. But yeah, I'd
like I'd like it to cycle in and out. I'd like,

(37:23):
you know, they're not to be thirty week number one records.
I'd like, you know, we'd like to see it be
more fluid. Um pop still is pretty good at that,
you know, um other formats alternative seems to take forever. Um.
I don't think it's healthy for the formats and healthy
for the it's certainly not healthy for the artists and

(37:43):
and you know, for us, we're partners with radio, So
I just think it's a challenge. They have to kind
of think their way through it. But they're they're selling advertising,
they're in they're in a different game than we are.
They need familiarity and comfort, and the listener wants it,
needs to go there and and and and feel like
they are being super served with what they want and need.
Unfamiliarity is challenging. It doesn't It isn't always something that

(38:06):
the consumer wants. Okay, So in the old day, certain
publicity goals be on late night TV, be covered in
the newspaper. Uh eight of those things work and be
if and if they do or they do not. Where
you focus your marketing efforts these days? Yeah, well, just
sit to answer the last part of that question. A

(38:27):
lot of the marketing efforts is some form of digital connection,
you know, a social connection. So whether that's you know,
paid uh paid media to to bring attention to an act,
or whether it's uh moving artists into a space or
creating content. Let's just be a little you know, let's
assume you're buying as your paid media. What would that

(38:48):
literally look like online? It depends on which on which
which platform here which platform is, Well, we use all
of them and and they're different depending on the song
in the genre and how the artist moves and whether
the urban or pop or let's start with the big
cohuna Instagram. What might you do on Instagram? Well, instagrams,
you know, that's more of an artist to fan, you know,
relationship and and and and unless you know, we'll we'll

(39:10):
do some we'll do some paid media on that. But
it's it's it's more of a of what you put
up their content wise, so we'll invest in content, whatever
that is. We'll invest in whatever that means the story,
whether it's fashion one moment or whether it's you know,
teasing the song the next moment or showing something from
the live show. And that's artists driven. That's really that's
really direct relationship, as direct as you can get from

(39:32):
the artists to their to their following. You know. And
what would you advertise or do something on Twitter? Probably
not we I mean, we we will do things on Twitter,
and we won't advertise much on Twitter, um, but but
you know, we'll try things out. And Facebook has Facebook
still is relevant for a certain type of acts, and
obviously they have the biggest scale out there and you
can move the needle. We did it recently with Michael

(39:53):
bou Bleg you know and and and what did you
actually do? We took some ads that that pointed to
this song forever Now, and it was an activation that
happened organically off of a mom's related site and there
was a little bit slower taking the ads on Facebook
and then what so, here's what happened. There was a
video for forever Now. Michael has a song out Forever
and Now, off his last latest album, and the video

(40:15):
was about essentially a kid growing that an empty room
that changed as a kid grew old, and then the
kid went off to college and the boxes went up
and it happened to be picked up by um I
believe motherly dot com a side directed to moms at
the time when kids were going back to school, and
so it evoked an emotion and it went viral, and
so we were looking to spend that into more spends

(40:38):
it radio and more sales of the album. So we
took some ads to to kind of to to amplify
that that emotion, to amplify that video and to point
to people, and then we got our press department involved
so it was. I think Hoda was talking about it
on the Today Show, and you know, we brought it
to everybody's attention. That's our job, that's the amplification part
of it. You might miss it if we didn't publicize it.

(40:59):
You might miss it if we didn't advertise it. And
we have the resources and the staff to do that.
You know, that's what a major label staying with a
major label. Chance the rapper famously did not have a MA.
But is c Suee generous? Is there just one of him?
Or how often are you interested in the act? They
say no, I want to do it myself. What happened
very seldom. Chance appears to be a bit of a unicorn.

(41:22):
They come along every so often and Pat more power
to him and his team. You know, we actually have
a label deal with his manager, Pat Corkran that we
just spun up this year and it's going well. Uh
so um. But but to me, that's unusual. But but
in terms of the scale that Chance achieved, But there
are a lot of acts were being independent might work
better for them. It depends on how they want to move,

(41:45):
how they want to be flexible, whether they really want
to be global superstars. Do they want to have hits?
They want to stare, you know, out and into that
vast void and say I can conquer this. You know,
it's it's a big undertaking and and it takes a
lot of ambition, focus, and talent, and not everybody has
all three of those. Now, let's assume you sign everybody's
a go. What do you say to the acts about

(42:07):
participation in social media? Well, it looks that they have
to be natives, they have to feel comfortable with it,
but they've but it's been really benefits them to be
in it. And I think it'd be very tough to
sign an act that just said, hey, I'm not doing anything,
you know, having said that, there's no rules, we'd have
to see. Maybe that's the next great move. It's not
to be involved in social media, but it would make

(42:29):
it harder for everybody most likely. Let's just assume you
had a campaign on one social media platform. Facebook is
probably the easiest, and you didn't go viral. It wasn't
a matter of you know, some other website picking it up.
Is that effective? Just pure like a pure advertising play? Um, yeah,
it depends on the artists. Usually for something like that,
that's very traditional brand marketing. It's like we have a

(42:51):
known brand we're communicating, or a known artist we're communicating
the new album that's coming out. We know where they're following.
Is the research tells us this, The insight tells us
how to move of the analysis points to Facebook. You know,
let's go where this artists fans are on Facebook and
make sure they know that this album single video is
coming out. Let's go back to the beginning. So you

(43:11):
grew up where I grew up in Seattle, Washington. Seattle, Washington.
What did your parents do for a living? My mother
was a homemaker and my father was a math professor
at the University of Washington. What professor, math professor, math professor.
I can't imagine that the University of Washington. How many
kids of the family. Three? I have two older sisters. Well,
one lives in Connecticut and uh and she's she's now

(43:32):
full time mom. And my other sister, who's living in
la is a lawyer since retired. So did your parents
and your father is certainly a highly educated person. Did
they impart to you a certain direction they wanted you
to go in? Now, my my parents would go make
yourself happy do something you love. And they never really
understood what I do, but they really liked it. They

(43:56):
liked that I was happy. Okay, So how big a
music fan were you growing up? Oh? Pretty big? But
I honestly never knew it was a business. It never
occurred to me like I could have a career in
the music business. I thought. I just never thought of
it as a job. And I kind of still don't,
which is the great thing. So I lucked into it,
you know, I looked into Okay, so you were you
went to college where U c l A U CE.

(44:18):
How did you end up going to u c l A.
I My dad said, you have to go two states
away minimum and I'll pay for school, but you have
to go to a public school, the best schools two
states away. We're in California. And I got into u
c l A. And because I was a big sports
fan and I was also a soccer player, and um,
I thought, I'm gonna try to make the team at
U c l A. And I made the JV team

(44:39):
for two years and that was a lot of fun
and uh, but I always thought the U c l
A was the coolest school out there. And I still
feel that. Okay, what was your father's logic on the
two states away? He wanted you to go out. He said, Look,
while you can be supported and we're not gonna give
you a lot of money, but we're gonna give you
enough to live on. You can figure out how life
really works, and you're gonna manage your life. And you'll
have a little bit of a resource to do that with.

(45:00):
Will be there if the ship hits the fan. But
you know you need to go at least two states wis.
You can't just run home every time there's a problem. Okay,
how good a soccer player were you? Pretty good but
not good enough? When did you realize you weren't good enough?
Kind of the first day I showed up and there
were players from the U. S Olympic team on the field,
and I thought, well, maybe I fight try really hard,

(45:20):
and and I had. I had great fun, but I
never was quite good enough to make the varsity. Okay,
did you get playing time when you were in the
j V? Oh? Yeah, I started every game. And then
how did you decide I'm done? Uh? You know, I
realized after two seasons the coach was just playing as
scholarship players because I practiced with the varsity all the time,
and I thought, I'm good enough to play on this team,

(45:41):
and I probably was, but you know, it wasn't. Maybe
one of his guys and all that. And then sadly
the assistant coach kind of liked me. Was this guy
famous soccer coach. Later on, it turned out the guy
named Ziggi Schmidt who coached the Galaxy and Seattle Sounders
and the US Under twenty men's team, and he liked me,
and I think he kept putting me into the pra
this is and I'd mark out the forward and I

(46:02):
was a defender, and I'd take care of the ford
and do a pretty good job. And but but then
I just I just said, you know, I gotta go
figure out what I'm gonna do with my life. I
can't spend the whole summer and the whole fall playing soccer,
you know, and then think about it the rest of
the year. And so um, I went off, you know,
looking for other things to do. But it's kind of
heartbreaking to give up the dream. Yeah, you know what,

(46:22):
it was the right time, though, And when you give
up the dream, sometimes the dream has given up on
you as well. And but I played. I played until
I was forty seven. You know, really, you know where
did you play? All over the place? But last time
at Chelsea Piers, New York five aside. Then I just
realized as a step behind and about ten years too
old to do it, and I hung up the spot.

(46:44):
He played. He went to school at Clarmont McKennon. He
played four years there is he is a good player. Okay, okay,
So you go to U C l A and you
drop out of the soccer track. So then you say,
I want to find your way. How does it end
up being music? Well between junior and senior year, Well,
let me actually rewinding. I was in a fraternity. A
couple of my fraternity brothers intern at A and M Records,

(47:07):
and they would come on the people we would know
they are not They got out of the business many
years ago. One guy never got beyond an internship. Um
and then they but they would come home with albums
and concert tickets and they always had a nice looking
girl in their arm. And I thought, that's something I'm
interested in. But I just thought I'd do it as
an intern and I was supposed to go do it

(47:29):
a paid internship in the Justice Department and it got
canceled and my parents and I said, well, can I
just go to do an unpaid internship in d C?
And they said no, we won't pay for it, and
which which is looking back on it turned out to
be exactly. And then that night I got a knock
on on my door and about midnight and my frister
living at the fraternity. Living at the frat, my fraternity brother,

(47:50):
Richard Creo, came in and he said, hey, you remember
we talked about this thing a couple of months ago.
Nine o'clock tomorrow, you're coming in with me, And I
said okay, and kind of the rest is history. I
was a wide eyed kid who didn't know anything about
the music business, and I was like, wow, this is amazing. Okay,
But traditionally, especially back then, that was a very hard
internship to get, really tough, really tough to irony was.

(48:14):
I thought it was A and M Records, which this
other guy had. It turned out to be I R
S Records. And I had no idea when there was so,
but I was a pretty big music So what year
are we in? Approximately one? Okay, so the police have
already broken I R S is and know quant that's right,
I and but I r S was just starting to break.
Literally like the week I started. The Go Goes released

(48:35):
their first single, and a year later it was multi platinum.
But they weren't on the map as a label other
than just being a cool new wave label. Wall of Voodoo,
you know, the Cramps, etcetera. Wasmon arrees, I mean you
can go on. Okay, so you work that summer, then
you go back to school and what go back to school?
But in turn the whole year and they gave me
seventy five bucks a week, thank you j Boberg and
Barba Bowl and give me seventy five bucks a week

(48:57):
to um to hang around. And so I go to
school less and less, and I'm hanging around more and
more at the record lab, and I'm doing odd jobs
over the week and driving the Go Goes around the concerts,
doing things like that, things you do, looking after stings
motorcycle because he was Miles was in and out of
the business, and it was it was so much fun.
And uh so I finished school and about a month

(49:17):
or so before I finished school, they offered me a
job and I accept on the spot. How much money
and what kind of job. Well, this is a great story.
So Bobrick takes me out to dinner at s J
and those people who watch uh Goliath. That's of course
where Billy Bob hangs out. That's right. It's a classic
old watering hole. So we're sitting there was their office

(49:38):
was weird at the A and M lot. Yeah, so
which is now Henston Studios. So we go down there
to dinner and and Jay says, well, we'd like you
to come be our director of merchandising. I think was
the first job, whatever that was. And I said, great,
how much? He goes to fifty a week? And I'm
think about it for a second, and I said, you know,
j I didn't go to college to make less than

(49:59):
three hundred. He goes done, Well, what inspired you to negotiate?
I had to stick up for myself. But then I
realized that it was the first bad deal I made.
You know, I could have come up with an extra
fifty bucks. Although, funny enough, Jay and I remained friends,
uh and and he said, you know, Tom, there there
were weeks when I didn't get paid, so everybody else could.
So it was probably you know, as much as he

(50:21):
could he could spring for it and your parents were
fine with you making three a week. They were fine, okay, fine,
So you go to work and what does it look like?
And you know, I'm doing everything. I'm I'm i'm merchandizing
record stores back in the day when you would put
up posts. Jason how Jason Flam started to that's right,
I'm taking inventory. I'm I'm putting. I'm putting clean records,
commercial records and bands come through town into places like

(50:42):
Aaron's Record and Vinyl Fetish and liquors, pizza and all
that because they didn't always take our stock or they
might be out of stock. We didn't ship a lot
of records in those days. I'm I'm sometimes going to
be Okay, let's say Erin's, which was on Melrose, they're
not stocking a record. You would go in there with
cleans meaning there's no cutouts, doesn't show to promo, and
you would just stick them in. Yeah. I talked to

(51:02):
the doors of the store manager or owner and at
the end these and I'd say, hey, look um, we
have R. E. M. Coming to town. Who's that? Well,
they have this the CP called chronic town. I don't
see that you have this or you have one copy
and and k Rock maybe he had just started to
play it. Rodney might have played it or something in
a specialty shower or Casey R. Car w is playing

(51:24):
it where they're just they're selling out this this gig.
I need to put five in here? Is that okay?
Sure you took all the revenue. They took all the revenue,
but we got we got music into people's hands because
we got no revenue at all. It was it was
it was seeding the market. And so it was what
you did. You didn't do it a lot because it's
not it's not every stainable Christinas model. But but if

(51:46):
let's active comes to town, who was you know baby
R e m you know, with Mitch Easter producing them,
That's that's what we did. And you know, and then
when sometimes it works, it's like the five thousand you
know CD singles for Radiohead, Holy Ship It we got
a hit. It's like, let's go and so and I
did that, and I and I was I used to
actually order all the merchandizing, get the art from the

(52:09):
art department ordered. I learned about printing presses, I learned
about color separations, I learned about ordering and pricing things.
I would then get all the stuff in being the
merchandising warehouse, roll the posters up, box up the flats,
anything out, ship them out to the distribution people to
where I first met a bunch of people. Their names
were on the on the mailing list, ship them out
all over the US. They would then order more. I

(52:30):
keep the inventory. I kept all the promos closet full
of promos of everything today who knows, who knows? And uh,
hopefully collectible some of it, you know, I mean I
probably had some highly collectible stuff in there. Okay, so
how long do you do that job? And then I became,
you know, director of sales, director of Go Sideways for
a second. So who else was working there other than

(52:52):
Jay who sustained Yeah, Jay, and Miles obviously on the
company and Jayson, Yeah. And Barbara Bowen was a really
prominent figure. She was probably VP of sales. The world
famous attack hamster Michael Plin, one of the great promotions
stories of in the world. A woman named Kyle Heatherington
who was also a great promotion person who left the

(53:12):
business a while ago now, but she's she's lovely. A
young guy named Steve Tipp and I started around the
same real estate now but worked at Warner for a
long time. Yeah, and Steve and I literally started like
the same week or two and he went off to Warner,
and I was always jealous. He got the great, he
got the great. So now you have a job, you're
making your three week Is there a dream? Yeah? I

(53:33):
want to Well, the first once I got over the
idea after two years that I probably wasn't going to
go back and get an NBA and get a real job,
I then was like, you know what, I like this,
Maybe I want to run one of these companies one day.
So my ambition pretty much solidified pretty quickly. I'd like
to be president of a meaningful record label one day.
And you know, I had I had shots over the
years of managing artists and doing different things with digital companies,

(53:56):
and I just I just stayed through the thick and in. Okay,
so how long were you at I r S four
years and then what happens next? Then I got the
break of a career. So, um, I got a guy
named Gilfrees and a legendary yeah, my mentor, my true mentor. Yeah,
it was president of A and M and every so
often he would hire someone to be his executive assistant.

(54:18):
These days that would mean secretary, all sort of administrative
work that it was actually a management trainee position. And
so Jeff Gold, Jeff Arof et cetera, Michael Leon, some
guys who, to me, your legendary and we're also mentors
and friends of mine. Still they were previously in that role.
So I snatched at it, and I got a nice
fifty percent raise. I was almost a forty thousand a year.
Uh then and uh and but it was I got

(54:40):
to be trained by one of the great thinkers in
our business, who was really way ahead of most people
thinking through the business. He would work with people like
Peter Drucker, the legendary you know, kind of the father
of the new of the modern masters of business administration,
um idea and a great a great advisor to many
many titans of industry. Gil would work with him or

(55:03):
he'd go think about this differently, that differently, And obviously
Jerry Moss and Herbalpert just legendary entrepreneurs. And and I
got to like, you know, play sidecar with Gil for
five years. It was remarkable. Okay, how did he pick
you out? But he Jeff Gold right, who now says
sols memorabilia. But started in your role, became a marketing

(55:24):
guy exactly. He recommended me, and I think a couple
other people, my cole and a couple of those people
were supportive. Um and but I think Jeff was the
guy that sayd hey, Gil, you should meet this kid,
and and we headed off and and actually the beauty
of it is his his My wife was his assistant,
so it's all in the family. Oh, keid, Okay, how

(55:45):
long were you in the position working with Gil before
it was a romance with your wife? A couple of years.
A couple of years. She she started after me. I
advised him not to hire her because she didn't really
want the job, she told me, And then she ended
up taking the job and work. She didn't want the
job because she was thinking she was only she's British,
so she's Susan was thinking she'd only be in town

(56:07):
for several months with her then boyfriend and uh, gets
more compliment. Yeah, this is getting too personal. No no, no, no, no,
it's it's a great story. Okay, Well keep going. Yeah.
So anyway, she's working there for at least a year
before we hit it off. And you know, and then
and then it moved very quickly, and within like a
year and a half we were married. Okay, when you

(56:28):
start to hit off, is the boyfriend still in the picture? Briefly?
And how did it end? How did he get out
of the picture? I think she told him it was okay,
wasn't your wasn't on your shoulders? Well, only that I'm irresistible,
but you know, other than that, you didn't have to
stand up. He was a great guy. So I felt,
I honestly felt bally about them. Okay, so you were there?

(56:49):
Did Jeff Gold? Was he there? And that assist Jeff
left shortly there after I got into it. But did
he do it for five years? I don't know how
long he did the assistant position, but he was. He
was a proper VP of creative and other things by
the time I got there. Yeah, so you worked for
your five years, which brings us to what year? Okay,
and A and M was sold to PolyGram that's right,

(57:11):
and Gil left and went on his merry way to
do his great the great things that he did then
and and they made me head of marketing VP of
Marketing and Jake so, uh, this was before Alcafaro took over. Yeah,
I was right at the same time. So Al got
the he at that time, I think either got the
presidency or GM. I can't remember. He became the leader

(57:31):
of the company day to day. I got the VP
of marketing. Gar garen Od came in a few years
before that to be head of artist development. And Jim
Jim was a really good friend of mine. Used to
play basketball every Saturday, you know, at his house one
on one and and he and Michael Leon and I Michael,
myself and Michael Leon and there was somebody else involved,

(57:54):
maybe Wayne Isaac, I can't remember. We recruited Jim into
the company and uh he did very well. Okay, so
he was artist development and you were marketing. Yeah, that's right.
And how long were you there in that position? Only
for about a year and then when he got poached
by I got poached by Capital. And how did you
decide to leave the family? Uh? It was it wasn't Uh,
it was it was time, you know. I didn't think

(58:17):
that the new leadership was really the kind of direction
that I wanted to go, and I could feel the
company changing. And then I met hell Milgram at a
dinner party who would come from elector to run Capital,
that's right. And he was wonderful and you know, and
then he offered me this great opportunity to run the
international department at Capital, and I snatched it. It was great.

(58:40):
I didn't know you ran an international first. I mean,
that's back then, especially you flew all over the world.
I flew two air miles a year for three years.
Would your wife say? She said, come home. I got
two little kids and I need you home. But are
you kidding? She was the most supportive person in the world.
And obviously she had to be, you know, I mean

(59:00):
because because it was just tough, because there were no
emails then, no cell phones. It was all landlines and
texts and landlines and faxes, you know, And and it
was tough. And after three years, Hail threw me a
lifeline and pulled me back into run marketing at Capital. Okay, Now,

(59:22):
ultimately Charles Coppleman and his team took over. Where did
that leave you? Yeah, well, so Charles came in, um
changed changed leadership, brought in Gary gersh And, and that
was a very different perspective. And Gary's super talented guy.
He was riding the Nirvan Awave at that point in
County Crows and whatever. So he came in and Gary

(59:44):
had a very different approach to Hale. But I got
along fine with Gary. Well what was just for those
who may not know, what was the difference in approach? Um,
you know Gary, Gary was more aggressive. He was more
opinionated about day to day. Um. Not to say that
Hall didn't have an opinion or a point of view.

(01:00:04):
He was an A and R guy and not a
marketing guy. Um. He was more He was more about
the band's culture, if you will, and all that, and
and so I think I got the benefit of both
of their best you know things. And after a couple
of years uh with Gary, I got approached by by

(01:00:25):
by Sony and and uh about about a little about
a year and a half with Gary, I got approached
by by Columbia Records, by Don einer Um. And it
was a strange time because the north Ridge earthquake had
just happened. Yeah, I still haven't recovered him now and
so and and and it scared the hell out of us.
And in studios in Sherman in Sherman Oaks, which was

(01:00:47):
the second most damage that code and so and we
got a hundred thousand dollars with a damage in at
our house. That was terrifying. We had two little kids,
and uh, and then and so we were thinking about
do we want to live here anymore? And and Donnie
came in like maybe seven or eight months later and
offered me. I remember this is Columbia Records at the time,
which was mighty, you know, and Big Red and its

(01:01:10):
glory and Donnie is as the fearless Commander probably almost
like and um, so you know, I I I thought
long and hard about it, but it seemed like it
was the time to go. You know. Our kids were
five and seven and actually at that point six and four.
And then so I had to work another year at

(01:01:32):
at Capitol and kind of work off my contract and
then and then Gary was generous enough to let me
out a bit early and I stepped into the war
zone with Columbia records. What was that like? It was
it was a major cultural uh like wake up call.
Um was in l A. It wasn't uh, it wasn't Capital.

(01:01:54):
It was Big Red and Donnie Einner was you know this,
you know, the Sergeant Rock or the Demand or General
Patton exactly whatever. I want to say, and a bunch
of guys in suits and who were number one or one.
They weren't quite number one when I arrived. They'd fallen
off for a year or two. And I think Donnie
was under a lot of pressure. And and so is

(01:02:15):
culture shock for me. Initially, it took me a good
year to figure it out and to figure out how
I fit in. And I didn't fit in. I was
a little bit of of of you know, of an
awkward duck there within that company, of an ugly swan
or whatever, ugly duckling. And and but I really saw though,
an incredible machine and it's and it was exactly what

(01:02:36):
I needed at the right time. And Donnie was a
great leader. Now to what degree where you say you
didn't fit in? How much did you feel the pressure?
Tremendously tremendous pressure. Remember I was thirty six years old,
you know, with a wife and two kids, and I
waited a year to get there, and it was like,
holy shit, this is hardcore. And Donnie tested me, you know,
and what would that look like. He's just a he's

(01:02:58):
just a fear leader, a hard driver, an emotional guy,
you know, UM intimidating, um inspiring, you know, uh, one
of the great recordmen. Uh, you know of all time,
and and and and you know, look at the track
record you know, as a label guy, you know, he
was incredible, you know, and he was he was polarizing.

(01:03:20):
You know, it could be very difficult, but uh, you know,
I have great respect for for him as a as
a strategist and an executing person who could execute. You're
you're there when he gets blown out? No, I am
later on. Yeah, So did you see that coming? You know, yes,
and no, I mean, I mean I saw it coming
because I had I was in a much more privileged

(01:03:42):
position than many years later in two thousand five maybe.
So what was your obviously you weren't insider, but what
was your actual title? Believe I was GM of of
j R st R, j R R C. I can't
remember exactly. And and it was recently, you know, the
companies were recently merged. There were a lot of politics
going on. You kind of didn't know which side it
was to come down on, and it came down on

(01:04:04):
the BMG side of it. And Donnie was a casualty
and but I still kind of couldn't believe it. I
was like God, that guy was like, you know, okay,
so you worked with Clive? What was that like? Cli?
Clive was amazing and is amazing. Um, and I have
a lot of love, yeah, um, and a taskmaster and
an absolute perfectionist. And nobody works harder, nobody's more strategic,

(01:04:27):
and he was. He would manage the minutia down to
the font on the sticker on the album cover, you know.
And and at the same time, I have the big
picture in the vision to both create stars and resurrect superstars,
you know. And and his his his and he's insatiable.
You know, he's just incredible. So how did you jump

(01:04:50):
to Clive Terrista? I was recruited, you know, this is
when it was Jake, this is when it was now
before it turned into correct So I I was it
aris to about six months, but as a Columbia Records
company into my deal. Um, I was approached by by
Arista at breakfast with Clive. And there's a guy named
Charles Goldstock who's Clive's right hand guy. We need to

(01:05:10):
knew each other. We work together. Charles gold Stuck today
he's doing Hitco with l A. Read so and and
and so. Charles and I knew each other from Capital.
He was a CFO there and so um, and it
was time for me to move. I you know, I
felt like but they offered me a much better job,
you know, a bigger job, global head of marketing e VP,
all this stuff, lots more dough, thank you very much.

(01:05:31):
And it was a no brainer. Um, And it was
time for me to go. And I think culturally it
was a much better fit for me. What did Donny
say when you wanted to go, You're making a mistake, said,
you know, this may be and and this may be
the last job you tall, having the record business and
all that. But but at the same time he said, like,
what can I say? You're gonna go work for Clive?
I love because that's right. So you know he was

(01:05:52):
he was doing his best to to who convince me
not to go? And then when it's it's apart, you
go with Claive. I do. And but one thing about Live,
it's basically his way. What was it like working that way?
I mean, when you came up with an idea and
he wasn't so warm about it. I put a lot
of winds on the board with Clive, you know, but
because I understood how he how he thinks, and I

(01:06:15):
and and and at that point I wasn't I wasn't
as much of a kid anymore. I had my own confidence.
And that's what Columbia Records gave me, the belief in
what I could do. And that's what Donnie wanted. That's
why he would test you. He would test you to
make sure you really believed that what you were doing
was going to work, and then you had to go
out and do it. That was and that was proof
of concept, making me feel like, you know, I am

(01:06:36):
I am maybe as smart as I think I am sometimes,
you know. And and he didn't torture you if you fail.
You know, he would tease you or goof on you
or whatever, but he would always encourage people that to
to go for it. And and but he you know,
he he'd guide you along. He was great. Clive was
a different version of that, you know. And Clive, You're right,
Clive had the vision and and got a lot of

(01:06:56):
the credit and and and deserves you know it as well.
But you know, I like to think I helped Clive win.
Clive takes a lot of credit. We'll leave it at that.
Certainly can't do without the team. So then how do
you end up being a you know, the merger happens,
how do you end up on top? Uh? Which merger

(01:07:17):
the Sony b MG merger? Yeah? Yeah, Okay, so there's
a there's a lot of different Okay, we you're talking
about just I can't eve remember did j we merge
with the Arista before? What happened Arista? Arista, l A
read came in, lives out, We start j Records, and
you have a lot of success. We have a lot
of Thank god, we have a lot of success. Um
we get Arista back A couple of years later, l
A is losing a lot of money or aristas losing

(01:07:39):
a lot of money, but he's got hits, you know,
so that that comes back into the fold, you know.
Then Jive is bought by BMG. Then Clive and Charles
have oversight of BMG North America, which includes Jive, which
Barry runs autonomously, but he reports into these guys. Um
So in the meantime, I'm Arista, R C A and

(01:08:02):
J become one become our CIA Records. Essentially R C A,
J R. Cier aris to J and Richard Sanders for
a while is running R c A. I'm running I'm
running Aris to j and then Richard. Then the merger happens.
Richard goes off and runs international for Sony b MG.
I then become GM of of of r C A
J Arista. So you're the GM. How do you fly

(01:08:24):
up to the next level? So long? So spin it
up again. In two thousand and eight, Charles leaves the company,
Clive becomes Chief Creative Officer of Sony. Barry Wise takes over.
He takes over m r C A Jive. I'm GM
kind of. He and I hit it off great. I'm
a big fan of Barry. He's quirky and smart, but

(01:08:45):
he's a consummate record guy, very bright, very driven. Three
years later, Barry ops to go to university. Um Doug
comes in. At the same time, there's a change in management.
Doug Morris comes in. He uh looks at Peter and
me and he says, Okay, you guys run it, but
I'm taking r C A and I'm retiring JIVE and

(01:09:06):
I'm making it just our c A. And so he
gives us our shot. And I'm very grateful for Doug
to give us our shot, because as he would he
said with a little glint in his eye. About two
years later, he goes like, you know, I didn't know
you guys are gonna make so And by the way,
maybe we didn't either, but but through through his support
and and and and believe we we believe in ourselves.
But going back to Donnie's comment, when you go to

(01:09:27):
Arrow sat, so this is gonna be your last job
in the record business. For a lot of people, they
make moves and it is their last job. We ever
worried that, Hey, you know, there's gonna be a game
of musical chairs and I'm gonna be left out if
I if I'm honest, I would say I always believe
in myself and I didn't think that was gonna happen.
But but if I'm digging down a little deeply, you
are there. I'm you know, insecurity drives all of us.

(01:09:48):
So I wasn't going to be that guy. Okay, So
now we're in the present. Obviously you live through the
knaps Ger era. Uh sales went down and then of
course in the last couple of years results of streaming,
they've gone back up. So it used to be the
record company was king, but now a lot of record
companies if they buy any tickets for the show, very few.

(01:10:11):
They're certainly not buying out clubs like there used to be.
So where does the record company fit in the ecosystem today? Yeah, um,
that's that's that's the billion dollar question. But but obviously
the record company is there for a lot of things
that's always been there for, which is to to to
for scale global scale, To work radio, which is very
difficult to work if you're not in there. To fund

(01:10:34):
on a on a big scale, big ideas and small ideas.
To have expertise, to source to source talent both on
the A and R side, i e. Producers, engineers, mixers, masters, etcetera.
Video directors, art directors, photographers, To be able to uh
sit there and and and sync music on on on

(01:10:57):
scale at scale, To be there every day with brands
where when we come in with hundreds of acts in
some cases at major labels, but to know who to
pitch and how to pitch it. When one pitch comes
in for one act, you know doesn't work for that act,
but we spend it into another act. You know, so,
and and and and you know and and just as

(01:11:19):
a sounding board, you know, as a sounding board is
part of the team of experts, because the one thing
I'll say about major labels is we're there with everybody
every day through the entire food chain, for better, for worse,
you know, and hopefully for the better. And so you
you you gain access, you gain global access. You have

(01:11:40):
an affiliation, you have people that are accountable to you.
As an artist, we're accountable to the artist. Um, you
have a royalty department, you have business affairs, helps sort
you through. Then with an independent label, you want to
talk about not getting paid forgetting I mean not getting
paid and some of the Look, I'm a big believer
in independent labels, but you know, they're running a shoestring,

(01:12:01):
most of them. It's really tough. And so just so
in order to stay alive, they've got to have cash flow,
and we have constant cash flow. They don't always have
constant cash flow, right never well the old days distribution
there you couldn't get paid if you were an indie,
that's right. But okay, so I'm an act. Tell me
about the relationships with the streaming services. Let's start with
the paige services, Amazon, Spotify, Apple primarily. How does a

(01:12:25):
major label interface with those that's a that's a big question.
But um, your primary role is to work with the
the the DSPs, the digital service providers to work on
playlisting and making sure you're talking to the right editor
with the right playlist at the right time for the
right song for the right artists, you know. But it's

(01:12:47):
much bigger than that. They have a big platform, they
have marketing money, they do out of home advertising, they
have in some cases radio shows, uh, podcasts and things
and so forth. Uh, they if and and they're not
created equal. Some are affiliated with hardware Apple. Some are
affiliated with with digital retail Amazon and have a tremendous

(01:13:08):
program called Prime. And I think fourteen markets around the
world might be more. You have You've got Spotify, which
is a wonderful you know service both at supported and
premium that is in a hundred and seventy countries around
the world, you know, something like that. It provides a
lot of access around the world. So they're all different.
And and that's again if you're one person or one

(01:13:31):
artist to one manager trying to wrap your head around
that and trying to get access. And they have boots
on the ground everywhere, but so do we, you know,
And and so you're you're you're just dealing with it
all the time, and you're constantly in a constant, always
on conversation about what to do. Okay, let's just narrowly
done to one Spotify hypothetical. Yeah, do you pick and

(01:13:52):
choose what you're promoting or do you believe there's a
playlist for everything? I believe there's a playlist for everything. Actually,
So you have your priorities and your goal there used
to get it on the genre playlist. Let's you know
you have what would you ask for? Well, genre is
the easiest way to describe it, but someone's lifestyle, some vibe.

(01:14:15):
Because that's the sort of trick with what I called
the playlist generation. You know, many of us do. It's
not they're not they're not beholding two genre. They may
they may go for R and B, or go for
hip hop, or go for pop or rock or whatever.
But they listen to kind of everything because there's a
lot of sharing going on out there, especially the younger generation,

(01:14:36):
Millennials and younger they're used to their own mix tapes,
their own they send things, you know, they do their
own U. G. C. Stuff. They have playlists that you know,
that's right in different platforms that they and their SoundCloud,
and there's this, and there's mixed you know, my mix
tapes and all this stuff. So there's a lot of
different ways that they could access music. And when you

(01:14:56):
come back to Spotify, you know, Spotify has you playlisting
ability for people to share and its social and it
does a good job of that. And and so you know,
there's the idea that you know, we look at collection
i e. People collecting songs off of a playlisted uh
Spotify list and and and the truth is is that
something like eight of plays are off playlists and sorry,

(01:15:20):
are off off bespoke playlist saves playlists not off playlists
generated boyl the DSP And do you have any uh
knowledge how many of those are saved because the person
listened on a playlist or they just cherry picked and
created their own playlists. I know there's data there. I
don't I can't spit it out at the moment, but

(01:15:42):
but I'm sure it's a combination of both. But I
think a lot of it is you sharing your playlist
with me and me going, oh, I like those. I
didn't know those three records that Bob put on here,
I like those or I hadn't thought of that from
my list, and it fits into this playlist for my
dinner party, or this play is from my drive, or
this playlist for my workout. Okay, so that's almost impossible

(01:16:03):
to penetrate, right, Well, yes and no. It goes back
to knowing your consumer and knowing where to find them,
and and having the experience and the ability to reach
them and communicate them. To get them to listen English
in English, you have to be a good marketer. So
let's just be very narrow. If you want to reach

(01:16:24):
them on Spotify and they're basically trading playlists as opposed
to going through the genre playlists, you won't just reach
them on Spotify. That's my point. You read them, You
reach them through lifestyle, you reach them through social, you
reach them through touring, You'll reach them through other you know,
levers and odd platforms. So so nobody exists in a

(01:16:45):
silo or not. And okay, but let's just go back
to your Now you're you're pitching Spotify. Let's just say
they put something on a playlist. You're obvious, they're obviously
generating data which is useful to you, But how long
will they stay committed? Before they not working for us.
It varies from playlists to playlists. If we're just talking that,
you know, you can have today's top hits. I believe

(01:17:07):
the average time is eight to ten weeks. You know,
you have other playlists like Pop Rising, which cycle through
more quickly. You have Wrapped Caviare, You've got It's you know,
It's lit. You know, they all have a different sort
of um sort of mission in terms of what they're
trying to accomplish. But they they're data driven. They'll look
at some yes there's some curation evolved and the human

(01:17:27):
beings involved, but they're also very data driven. So let's
see there's burn. You know, they'll see there's the playlist,
things dropping and as you'll see it drop down there.
But I say, let's say you you're something you're excited
about they put it on these playlists, and they come
to you one day said, you know, we're not going
to leave it on the playlist anymore, and you're still
excited about it. How do you deal with that? Well,
then you could go to a different playlists. Maybe you
were wrong, maybe it isn't that audience. Maybe you thought

(01:17:50):
it was Wrapped Caviare. But it's really something else or
you know that sort of thing. And and so you
might just pivot and go somewhere else, or uh, it's
just not a very good record. So, uh, since you're
in the belly of the beast, what is the most
useful data that you've ever I'm done about specific kind
of data that you've gotten from streaming services that is

(01:18:13):
either very useful or surprising. Other than people listening primarily
to their safe playlists. Yeah, there's a there's not I mean,
there's a number where do I start? But but you know,
collection people putting stuff on their plus skip rates are
that what are they skipping? When they're skipping? Is skipping
at the beginning of the song or right at the
hook or a little bit later in the song? Um?

(01:18:35):
What sort of click rates? You know? UM? What kind
of likes people have? You have a sentiment you know, um,
data about how people feel, you know, And so you
try to sift through those words and and create because
it's an emotional products, so you and and and that's

(01:18:56):
particularly helpful on the first blush of something, whether you're
just putting out something new from Dualipa or whether you're
putting out something new from a fairly unknown act, but
you find you have a very we have a sat
cave Town. It's a sort of a of a pop
alt kid from the UK and very very emo and
very bedroom pop, but very connected. And he's just sold

(01:19:18):
out venue here, the Fonda, you know, I mean, he's
going doing very very well. And we don't we haven't
had a new album out in a while. In fact,
his previous one was Indie. So we have an album
coming out and I think believe it's February. So he
played there and and you know, you watch what's going
on there and and and and so you know you're
looking at the connectivity that that that that happens off

(01:19:39):
of that emotion. You know, it's so emotional, that product.
But you'll look at the sentiment meter around that and
you'll say, okay, that's super passionate. That's like a lot
of love there, you know, and significant streams in the
twenty five million range, but not the million range. But
we're betting long on Cave Town. We're betting long on
Robin has the R. So we'll look at that or

(01:20:01):
Hobo Johnson, you know, another act out of Sacramento. Frank
his name is and he's he's got the same thing.
You know, you'll you'll see the passion behind what's going
on there and then and then you morphounted off the
service and see that he's selling out theaters and doing
eleven bucks ahead and merged. Okay, there's a lot of
passion behind them. Have we hit radio yet with a
song that's gone all the way? Not yet, but they're

(01:20:23):
they're they're aware, they're paying attention. Okay, I saw you
at the Rufous Do Soul uh show where they sold
out the l A State Historical Park neighborhood of fifteen thousand. Uh.
They have not have put out a record under your management?
What's the plan for something like that? They have put
out a record, they had what they had now they
had last year and um and Solace is their first

(01:20:47):
album with with the label. Came out more or less
right when I arrived, like four or five months later. Um.
But they're one of my favorite acts around period. I
just think they're phenomenal and they're they're building themselves into
a stadium act with their with their live show, and
so you know, the plan for them is is to
tournament one of the biggest acts in the world you know, uh,
they made they made sort of a they made Solace
was was a was sort of a very personal album.

(01:21:09):
It was a little bit of a down mood. It
streamed fairly well, it hasn't exploded. I don't believe we've
really reached on on on the record label side of things,
a new audience, um, but we really solidify the audience.
But live, it's amazing what's going on. It was actually
twenty one thousand people. It was their biggest show ever ever.

(01:21:29):
And they're doing Ali Pally in the UK this week
which is ten thousand plus. They just come off here
of doing two Red Rocks at seven thousand plus, so
they're massive in Australia where they're truly truly stars. Um there.
The plan is for them to get in the studio
and make a new record that maybe is a bit
more commercially leaning, but you know they're going to make
the music they want to make. Okay, So would you

(01:21:49):
give them input? Say this is a hit not a
hitter on want my hit? Yeah, we're we're what we
always want to hit, right. I'm not when you say, hey,
I don't hear it hit, but you know you hits
hit Sir, you can't really just manufacture said there's a
magic to it. You can there there are certain writers
and producers that have formulas that they apply and and
they work from time to time. But um, for an
act that's that's self contained, like Rufus their proper old

(01:22:11):
school band in that way, they they've been on album cycles,
were just like, we we need more product from them
to come out when they're doing a great job. It's
early days still for us in that in that kind
of arc of their career, but we need more product
from them, more music, more connectivity, and they're doing a
tremendous job touring. But then we need to keep that
virtuous cycle going. And and but yeah, you know they'll

(01:22:31):
they'll go into the studio and and maybe they're in
a brighter mood than they were on Solace because usually
hits are pretty happy, you know, even if their breakup hits,
they have a brightness to them. Um, And we'll see
what happens. But I'm not I don't want to put
any undue pressure on them because I don't think that
it's fair and I think that what's going to happen
with them is the market is more likely to come
around to them than them coming around to the market,

(01:22:53):
and those are always the best. Longvity. Okay, to what
degree we talked about socials, you ever have an actually
don't want to make a deal. I mean everyone picking
and choosing. But someone say, like the old days, hey
I my credibility. I don't wanna tie up with any
brands or anything. Yeah, sure, yeah, I mean I mean
less and less it doesn't happen. It's more, I don't
want to do that sort of brand. I want to

(01:23:13):
do the cool brand, whatever they whatever they think is
appropriate for them. And we're fully supportive that. We never
make anybody doing it. We can't make anybody doing Okay. Now,
Scott Cohn is a friend of mine. He works in
your company, I don't know, chief technical officer or something,
and he was telling about this new data plan and
Zach with Scooter was going on with me about that.

(01:23:33):
Warner has a new way of looking at acts, a
new way of collecting data such that you literally know
who every fan is of an act and you will
monetize that relationship. I'd like to see. It sounds great,
not something you're employing. Well, I'm aware of of what
you're talking about. It's in beta. It's in beta right

(01:23:54):
now and I'm looking forward to and when we have
there's there's there's an artist dashboard we have that we
share with artists. That's new and it's really terrific if
that's what he's talking about. And now he's talking about
something you know different as I say, you know, he's
a blue Sky guy anyway. So but we have the answers.
So just before we wrap it up, anything you need
to say that we haven't covered, because I tear about

(01:24:18):
the gear here, I'm wonderful. Um, yeah, we've covered a lot.
We've covered a lot, but I want to make sure
you get your say of anything. And I'm very grateful
for the time in the platform. Okay, but as I say,
you know, you're sitting in a different perspective from me,
so maybe there's something I don't see. Yeah, I just
think that, you know, from from where I sit, there's

(01:24:39):
a lot of people that a lot of people that
have an agenda about undermining what labels do when major
labels do, and and I think some of them can
substantiate it to a point, but most of them can't.
And that labels so but but not notwithstanding that, the
criticisms constructively are taken constructively, and we have to morph,

(01:24:59):
and we have to change our skill set and retrain
our people and get new ideas and innovation, and people
like Scott will help with that. And we we are
working very hard at Warner and Warner Music Group of
you know, creating a different sort of channels so that
that dashboard or that information you know, does come to
light and is shareable with our acts so that we

(01:25:22):
provide a real added value down the line. And I
think what we provide now is more than adequate, but
we we need to get better. We need to get
more integrated with the agenda, not just of the artists,
but with our partners and what we're doing, and more
aligned so that so that our place at the table
is solid. It's explainable, it's transparent, it's understandable, and more

(01:25:45):
than anything, it's we can implement it. You know that
we gets a couple of questions. You now, the unlike
in the physical days, these streaming companies pay more frequently.
So if I'm an act, let's just as sue, for
the sake of discussion, I'm in the black, how often
would I get paid the same six month period or
would be moment, it's it's it's six months. Yeah, okay,

(01:26:06):
so let's just go one step further. You talk about
the major label. I am old enough to remember the
days where if you weren't on the major label, you
essentially weren't a player. First, you probably couldn't afford to record,
but you couldn't get on the radio. And if you've
got me in the famous stories Bobby Womack and Beverly
Glenn Records, he had a platinum out and put the
company out of business because they literally couldn't collect the money.

(01:26:28):
So we know there's more music being made than ever before. Okay,
granted most of it is literally not listened to. If
you go on Spotify, there are millions of tracks that
have never been listened to. So this vastness where the
major labels there used to be six controlled everything. What
do we say to the There are certain genres, like

(01:26:50):
we talked about plesbur that traditionally the major labels are
not looking for, But there was a time they put
out everything. They were the only avenue. Is there a
what are your thoughts about all all these other scenes
that the major labels are presently not in um They
have they have relevance and vibrancy, and there's and now
there's very little friction once you're a subscriber to Discovery

(01:27:13):
and Too and to Access and they have to battle
their way to whatever relevancy they do because they fight
at a different weight class. But everybody there's a champion
of every weight class. You know, it just depends on
which weight class you're in. Okay, so you would anticipate
the main We have none such by the way. Okay.
So it's an affiliated label to Warn't Warner Records, and

(01:27:35):
they have wonderful acts. You know that Vagabond is just
as a record that came out this week. I urge
everybody to listen to it. She's terrific. You know. You
have Yola, you know, which was produced by one of
the Black Keys. She's terrific. You know. At the same time,
you have David Byrne on the label, you know who
we don't have to explain David Byrne, Dewey, he's a
wonderful you know, all timers. Let's just stay with none

(01:27:55):
such So none such reports to you, yeah, okay, So
certainly if most revenue is from streaming these days, we
know those records tend to have presently very little streams.
It's challenging, I would think would be very challenging to
make money on those records. So look, if you're looking
at traditionally what none such did, Yes, they're in they're

(01:28:17):
in a in a position where they're more fitting and
pivoting into the streaming area. So that's and at the
top of the agenda for the management they're having. Said that,
though we touched on Suburban, who I think five years
ago would have been just a rock act, you know
that was put into a certain basket. But because of
what he's brought to the market, there's now a streaming
story behind Suburban, and now radio is going to follow

(01:28:39):
that or the traditional sort of outlets to go if
none such none such hat. That's why I mentioned Yolo
because I think where I mentioned Vagabond, none such as
morphing into that area. And that's down to A and
R and marketing and understanding that that whilst some of
their artists may struggle to stream, there's a new generation
of artists that might not be that different from what

(01:29:00):
those artists are, but they're of a certain generation. They
might be digital natives who know how to communicate differently
or more efficiently, and their marketing and their promotion has
to be on point with how the market moves today,
and certainly all the genres you know, the audiences will
ultimately move to streaming. Hip hop was there first, but
you know countries, you know better streaming than average country

(01:29:22):
is better than rock. Okay, you've been listening to a
comprehensive viewpoint of what is going on in with the
big cahuna the major label world. Someone who's literally worked
at all major labeled groups by today's standards. And Tom,
thanks so much for being here, Bob. It's been my pleasure.
So once again, that's Tom Courson, co Chairman, CEO O

(01:29:43):
of Warner Music. Until next time. This is Bob website

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